August 29, 2023 • 26 mins
Ever wonder how the power of connection and vulnerability contributes to your healing process? Join us as chat with TJ Woodward, a seasoned clinician advocate, author, and the founder of Conscious Recovery. We'll shed light on the significance of creating safe spaces for healing, the role curiosity plays in counteracting stigma, and the surprise element–the transformative potentials of equine therapy. We'll demystify how the energy we radiate impacts our interactions, and how animals, being highly sensitive to this energy, can assist us in our therapeutic journeys.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Thanks for tuning into Hatchin' Creativity.
Today I get to speak with TJWoodward.
He's a clinician advocate,author and the founder of
Conscious Recovery.
We're going to be speakingabout connection, vulnerability,
good communication skills andcreating our own constructs.
We also speak aboutdisconnecting from our judgment
(00:35):
and reducing stigma by beingcurious.
If you like what you hear,please like, share, subscribe
and tell all your friends aboutHatchin' Creativity.
Tj, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, you know, I love being in conversation with
you and I love that we trustwhat, exactly what wants and
needs to emerge will.
So I'm enjoying, I'm lookingforward to the ride.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
You know, sometimes you get hit over the head with
something and you go is this themeaning of life?
You know, I do these weeklyvideos on LinkedIn and Facebook
and I share those and it'sreally just a you know something
to give people something tothink about.
I always wonder in the back ofmy head, that inner critic that
is telling you you're not reallymaking a difference and you're
(01:18):
not really doing anything.
And someone came over to me ata bike race this weekend and he
says I saw that video about whenpeople share information with
you, or people talk aboutthemselves or people share on
social media, you're really onlyseeing a snapshot of their life
and you can't really compareyour life to their life.
(01:39):
And the comment that he madewas I realized all of the
troubles that I'm having withsomebody in my life, but to the
outside world it looks likeeverything is perfect because
those are the things that Ishare.
And he was really touched bythat video and it hit me that,
hey, maybe this is why we dothis right, and this is why
(02:02):
we're here is to connect withother people and to try to make
a difference in people's lives.
And it sounds like you do thaton so many different levels.
I'd love to hear your thoughtson that.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, I mean connection is at the core of it,
and I think there are so manydifferent layers to the
conversation of connection.
So I'm going to start by justjumping into the deep end.
When we're out of, when we'redisconnected from our true
essence, we look to the world toconnect.
We look to the world to bringus a sense of love and
(02:36):
connection, and the issue withthat is it doesn't actually
create what we're really hungryfor, which is a very deep,
authentic connection.
So it's an interestingparadoxical conversation,
because the more I allow myselfto connect with others, the more
I'm connected with myself.
The more I'm connected withmyself, the more I can connect
with others.
(02:56):
When I look at it in terms ofthe work that we do, you know,
connection, having authenticconnection with our clients is
the number one tool that willhelp someone recover, and I can
say that that might be a boldstatement, and but to me that is
true, because that depth ofconnection, that authentic
connection, creates a safe spaceto start doing the deeper work
(03:18):
of examining and unlearning andall the different things we do
in therapy or in in treatment.
Connection is at the root ofwhat we all want.
I think it's the deepestlonging for every human being.
Whether we call it love orconnection, they're one in the
same, really.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I agree and I think that also you're dealing with,
depending on background, rightand and comfort with
vulnerability can also affectability to connect with other
people and it kind of keeps usseparate, right.
You know we don't necessarilyallow ourselves to to trust, and
(03:57):
that's something that is isreally important, for that
growth.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, I mean that's.
Every year I have a theme.
I don't this wasn't reallyconscious, but I noticed myself
having a theme, and now I havean annual conference and the
theme is always tied to it.
So my theme for the year ishealing the healers.
How can I be part of helping thepeople who are in a healing
profession, whatever that is todo their own healing?
Because what you just said isso powerful, because if I'm in
(04:26):
the room and that's with apartner, that's with you know,
in in my work, that's if we'reclinicians, if I'm playing a
role, rather than really havingan authentic connection.
That that is a felt sense thatthe other person experiences
right.
So the depth of authenticconnection is being wide, open
and present for what wants toemerge, much like you and I are
(04:48):
doing right now.
What is required, though, isfor me to do a lot of my own
healing, because otherwise I'mjust in reactivity, and it's
really convenient sometimes togo into a role my role is
counselor, my role is therapist,my role is husband rather than
being really present and, to thebest of our ability, not being
in any preconceived idea aboutwhat wants to emerge in this
(05:11):
moment.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
There's a lot to unpack there.
You talk about roles, right.
I always charge against theseconstructs of what I'm expected
to be because I'm a man, whatsomeone's expected to be because
they're a woman, whatsomebody's expected to be
because they're a child or aclinician.
Those constructs can be reallydangerous and really harming for
(05:37):
people too.
What I'm hearing you say isclinicians, when working with
your clients, it's reallyimportant that you express some
vulnerability too.
If you want your clients to bevulnerable and to really open up
to you, if you really want tohelp them, that bit of
(06:00):
vulnerability is reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yeah, I think it's really important to even go into
this a little more, because weknow that only 10% to 15% of the
way we communicate is verbal.
Most people, or many people,think well, the other 85% to 90%
must be body language.
I actually think most of it isenergy.
If that sounds too out there,actually we are energetic beings
(06:24):
, right?
Animals, for example, are veryattuned to energy.
That's why equine therapy canbe really powerful.
For example, if I'm saying beingvulnerable in this space with
my clients, I'm not necessarilysaying that I'm going to tell
them anything about my personallife.
Occasionally it is appropriate,but really it's an energy.
If I'm in a role, there's awhole body language, there's a
(06:44):
whole posture, but there's alsoan energy we also get into.
Why are people so burnt out ashealers?
Well, if I think the personsitting in front of me is broken
and my role is to fix them,that's not only exhausting but
it's not effective.
Right, when I'm in the roomwith someone as an equal, that
(07:05):
doesn't mean that I'm not in adifferent place in my journey.
I'm talking about energeticallybeing open and curious.
The joke I say is I'm studyingto become a cop curious, open
and present right To be reallyopen with someone, because
something can emerge that I haveno idea what's or needs to
emerge.
When I'm willing to be in thatspace, miraculous things happen
(07:28):
100%, and that needs to alsocome with lack of judgment.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, how often do we talk to other clinicians on a
personal level outside of aconversation, right?
And they go oh man, I spokewith this person today and they
were a real mess, or things likethat and you go wait a second,
let's withhold judgment and talkabout how we can help them.
(07:53):
I think that being able toseparate that judgment and to
really focus on the needs thatare really important.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, I love what you're talking about because
that's it right.
And I thought one day I wouldstop judging.
And then I realized, oh, mymind is always judging, so it's
not really about moving, it'snot really about getting rid of
the judgment.
It's about awareness, awarenessand awareness and awareness of
what the judgment creates.
So we sit in clinical meetingsyou and I have sat in clinical
(08:29):
meetings and we'll hear peoplereferred to as treatment
resistant, drug seeking, nokidding, right, if they're new
in recovery, they're unwilling,they're unparticipatory, or we
refer to them as their diagnosis.
She's a borderline and all ofthat is a judgment that creates
a barrier between me and theclient.
And so it's not because I waslike, oh, I shouldn't judge.
(08:52):
Well, nothing could be truerand less useful.
But when I started saying, wow,I wonder what this judgment is
really about, because judgmentcan also be like.
I hear people say, oh, I lovethis client, she's so willing.
That's also a judgment, right,it affects the field.
And if you're working in areally, really powerful and
authentic clinical team, you caneven talk about issues of being
(09:16):
attracted to someone or notattracted to someone or
resistant to someone, and thenyou can start to get into the
deeper work of like what are myjudgments, what are my biases,
how is this affecting the fieldand can I start to move beyond
them, which is really differentthan getting rid of them?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
For sure.
Are you familiar with thelandmark forum?
Have you ever done it?
Are you Perfect?
I went through the landmarkforum during a really difficult
time in my life and one of thethings that they did during that
class was we had to close oureyes and listen to the voice in
(09:56):
our head and I know it soundskind of silly right here.
This is in the horror movies.
You know the voices in our head.
But we had to listen to thevoice in our head and the point
was is that, no matter what,that voice is never going to
stop?
It's always there.
Good Learning to see what isthat voice saying.
(10:18):
Is it trying to protect me?
Is it trying to bring upsomething that was never
addressed in the past?
Right, or what is it trying todo?
And then accepting that forwhat it is.
As long as you fight it, forgetit.
That's going to get louder andlouder and louder and more
(10:39):
disruptive.
But quitting the fight and justlistening to what it's trying
to say is something I found tobe really helpful and I learned
that from that course.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, and really curiosity is the way we work
with judgment, because, like yousaid, we don't want to try to
stop the judgment, because thenit seems to intensify.
It's like going into meditationand saying shut up mind, shut
up mind it does not serve usright.
Some meditators are filled withthis beautiful bliss and some
are just.
That critic is just harsh andvery, very present, and they're
(11:14):
both valuable because we'rewitnessing.
So the way we actually workwith this is we start to witness
the thoughts, we realize thatwe have thoughts but we're not
our thoughts, and then in thatway all the judgments are just
almost like a movie that'splaying and we realize we're
holding the projector right andso it's not.
Let me get rid of the thoughts.
(11:34):
Let me be curious about them.
I wonder where I got that idea.
You know we have unconsciousbiases, is what we call it now,
or confirmation bias that's thecurrent kind of buzzwords around
it.
But really we all have thesebiases and beliefs.
I did a talk recently at aaddiction treatment conference
and I called it healing theunconscious biases in the
(11:55):
therapeutic alliance.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Now, that sounds smart.
That's a lot of words.
That's a lot of words.
Break it.
Break down a little bit.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
What I actually did is I said and this was early
COVID, so we were on zoom, so itwas great because I did a slide
show and I said we're not goingto process what you experience.
All I'm going to invite you todo is look at these series of
slides and see if you have athought or a body sensation.
So I would show like.
I showed a picture of an oldercouple, I showed a picture of a
(12:24):
lesbian couple, I showed apicture of a 70 year old man
holding hands with a 30 year oldwoman.
I showed a picture of someonewearing a make America great hat
.
I put it all in there and Isaid did you notice anything?
We're not going to process it,but the key is if I had any kind
of reactivity.
There's a judgment attached tothat and it's not so important
(12:45):
what the judgment is.
It's more important to realizeit's there and in the
therapeutic setting or in a.
You know, if I'm a counselor ora clinician and they walk into
the office, I have an automaticresponse.
Many of us aren't aware of them.
So I want to be curious aboutthat and see if I can look
beyond that.
Can I look Now?
This is where I would get intolike I use it.
(13:07):
I talk in spiritual terms, butI look for the spiritual essence
of that person and I look toconnect from my essence to their
essence.
Then we're way beyond our race,our age, our gender, our
orientation and all thedifferent ways that we can use
to feel separate from someone.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You know, one of the things that we do in our
software and I think reallylends to what you're saying to
you, j2 is we track when peopleleave treatment against
therapeutic advice and we'relooking at a lot of it as social
determinants of health, butalso other factors that are
(13:45):
involved, and a lot of times,you know, clinicians may not
realize their own biases and oneof the things that we like to
look at is the clinicianinvolved, the case manager
involved and then someinformation on the client
themselves, because what we findis it makes a pretty.
(14:11):
It definitely helps in decidingwhich clinicians should be
working with which clients andit uncovers a lot of those
biases that we don't even knowwe have.
I hear people say all the timeI can't be racist, I have a
black friend, right, you know.
Funny story, yeah, when I metmy father-in-law and he's a real
(14:35):
character and he says, mike,you're Jewish, he said, yeah, he
says I'm a big fan of Jews, myaccountant is Jewish, my
attorney's Jewish and so is mybusiness partner.
I love the Jews.
Oh, wow, I said, well, I'mreally glad I filed my horns
down and I was here for youtoday, right, you know, the
(15:00):
thing is is people don't realizethese biases.
Yeah, and it can be harmful,especially in a therapeutic
setting, these kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, so you are now talking about when I'm with you.
I'm like our next show could be.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
I know there's just so many of these.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
The next show is really what I'm the most
passionate about, and that ishealing the seeming divisions in
the world.
Right, and if I'm only….
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You should run for president.
That's what I want to see,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
I'm not going to say never, because then I'll end up.
You know, my friend is runningfor president right now and I
hold her in high esteem for herbravery in doing it, but that is
definitely not my calling.
But what I will say is I'd loveto be a spiritual advisor to
someone who's president, becausereally, the deeper work here is
to not finger point, and that'swhat we saw emerge like in 2020
(15:56):
when all this came up aboutrace, where people were like
pointing fingers at who theracist was instead of being
accountable, and I think whatwe're invited to do is look.
And what I encountered duringthat process being married to a
person of color added a layer toit, because we had some very,
very deep and uncomfortableconversations.
(16:17):
But what I discovered issomething that I knew but I
didn't really feel the deepimpact of, and that is I loved
my grandfather very much and hewas an overt racist overt.
And what did I do with that as aperson?
As a young person, I rejectedit like, oh that's horrible, oh
that's terrible.
But I realize now how did Iwork with the complexity of
(16:40):
loving this man and rejectingthat part and what seeped in,
basically and I grew up inIndiana in the 1970s and we were
swimming in racism, swimming inanti-semitism, swimming in
homophobia I mean, it goes on inmisogyny for sure.
So there was no escaping thatRight and ultimately I rejected
(17:04):
all of that.
But I had to startacknowledging that when I met a
person, was I looking at them astheir role and it could be the
role of their gender, their raceor am I actually being present
with that person and willing tobe curious about my biases, not
get rid of them?
That, I think, is the key.
Oh, I could say I could talkfor an hour, but I'll stop.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I was just going to say we're about to go down this
rabbit hole, tj, because whatcomes to my mind is June being
Pride Month.
In the beginning of the month, Ihad shared a post that went
something to the effect of Idon't remember exactly what it
(17:48):
was, but it was something to theeffect of it's very hard when
someone you love or you careabout is making their voting
decisions and life decisions ina manner that takes away your
rights and takes away yourability to exist.
(18:11):
Actually, tj, I'm going to pauseright here and I'm going to
actually read what that quotewas, because this is really
exactly what, and I went backand forth with several people
about this exact thing, becauseyou want to like people and you
have these people that you dolike, but at the same time.
(18:33):
So so I shared this post onFacebook in the beginning of
Pride Month, and the post saidmay you never know the fear of
having your human rightschallenged every time there's an
election, yeah, and may younever know the pain of watching
your loved ones vote againstyour rights to exist fully,
(18:55):
equally and authentically.
And, unfortunately, what endsup happening is people's biases
create this.
But then, how you're talkingabout your grandfather, how do
you write sit when somebody youlove is making conscious
(19:16):
decisions that hurt you andremove your ability to exist
fully as you are?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Well, there are some big layers here, and if we look
at it only through the politicallens which is not my normal
lens, but I want to start therethat's the issue with two party
system.
I mean that really is rightbecause, like I can agree with
parts of this and parts of thisand then end up voting my
conscious over here and thatmight have a negative impact on
someone who I love's life andthat's very, very complex and
(19:50):
that's not really ourconversation, or not my
conversation, but I think that'simportant to note, that I think
the the.
So I'm going to say, I'm goingto tell it as a story.
So my dad and his wife they saythey live in LA, lower Alabama,
and I live in the other LA, inCalifornia, and my dad and his
(20:11):
wife came to visit and mystepmother, who I adore, said,
gosh, people in LA are sofriendly.
That's not what I was told theywere going to be.
And I said I bet you, if wewalked around the streets of Los
Angeles and asked people whatthey thought about people from
lower Alabama, there would alsobe a lot of judgment.
And so we have these ideas thatcome from tribalism.
(20:32):
Right, I think, if we look back, we had to find tribes of
people to stay safe and stayalive, and in some cases that
still might be true, but in mostcases that is antiquated and
we've moved beyond that andthere's still something that's
innate that thinks we think weneed to find our tribe.
You know one example.
You know as an LGBT well, as agay man, I'm not going to give
(20:55):
myself all that, all theinitials, but you know, in the
80s it was all about we want tofight for our rights.
Right, there was a lot offighting for our rights.
And then I remember the 90s.
You know we're coming out ofAIDS and all the layers of that,
and I lived in San Francisco.
We want equal rights, we wantequal rights.
And then when they decided theywere going to have the F market
train come to the Castro, gaypeople protested.
(21:18):
We don't want them in ourneighborhood.
I'm like, wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
What's the F market train?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
It's a train that came from Fisherman's Wharf and
downtown and was going to cometo the Castro and they people
were like we don't want them inour neighborhood.
I'm like, wait, weren't weadvocating for equal rights?
So it's like, in some ways,even though we might say we want
love and acceptance, we alsomight unconsciously still want
(21:43):
to keep our tribe over here andwant to be separate from.
There's nothing inherentlywrong with that, but we want to
ask what it's creating.
When I see myself as part ofthis group, am I missing an
opportunity to realize that wehave more similarities than
differences?
What I'm not saying is thosedifferences aren't important to
celebrate.
What I am saying is can we cometogether in a much deeper way
(22:05):
and move beyond the LA, la,that's?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
great.
I had an interestingconversation, similar but
different, but similar, and itbrings it back to the
conversation around connection,right?
Because that's really what thiswhole conversation started as.
And I remember I was at aconference and for the people
(22:29):
that are listening to this thatdon't know, both TJ and I work
in substance use treatment andmental health field and I had a
conversation.
I was with a group of peopleand they asked me if I was in
recovery.
When people say are you inrecovery, they're referring to
from substance use or somethingalong those lines, usually from
(22:51):
some sort of disordered behavior.
When they asked me that now,somebody who is not in recovery
usually will not ask somebody ifthey're in recovery.
That's kind of not a cool thingto ask.
But when somebody who's inrecovery says to somebody who's
(23:12):
not, are you in recovery?
And your response is I am notin recovery from substance use
disorder, and their response toyou is, oh, you're a normie, and
they start laughing at you.
And what I found was that's thesame kind of thing, right,
because that stigma thateverybody's trying to remove,
(23:37):
which is exactly what you said,right?
Not in my neighborhood, not inmy neighborhood Do we want to be
with this person, hang out withthis person who is not
struggling with the same thingswe have but at the same time,
like my, life is dedicated tohelping people who are dealing
(23:58):
with these things.
So I think, to wrap it all up,it's really important to make
that effort to understand and toconnect with people, as opposed
to focusing on that divisionand the things that we're not
alike.
That's right.
Yeah, I mean further.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, I mean I love what you're saying about this
normie thing, because I cringewhen I hear that term and I
actually heard a therapist inour field doing a presentation
and he kept using the termnormie and I'm thinking well,
first of all, we're saying ifyou have a substance use
disorder, you're abnormal.
We're literally saying that.
But we're also separatingourselves.
I remember I worked for oneprogram amazing work.
(24:39):
I happen to be the only personin recovery there, which is kind
of the very unusual thing.
What happens a lot of times isclients will say well, are you
in recovery?
And then they want to follow itby.
Well, if you're not in recovery, you can't possibly understand
me.
And we know that's not true,because the human experience and
this is where we really drilldown to something much deeper we
(25:01):
all have the human experience.
We have different experiencesthat create how we perceive the
world, but at the core of it,we've all had the same
experience we could do a wholeshow on.
Is addiction a disease and isit not a disease?
Is it maybe partially a diseaseand not?
And what does all that create?
But what I'll say is when I sayto someone I'm different
(25:24):
because I have this, that'swhere we start to create more
separation rather thanconnection, and we want to start
to explore that awareness,awareness and awareness.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
TJ, I thank you so much.
This is outstanding.
I love having you on and I lookforward to bringing you on
again soon.
Can you tell people where tofind your contact info and how
to get in touch with you?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, absolutely TJwoodwordcom, very simple.
Thanks so much, tj.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Thanks for tuning in to Hatchin' Creativity.
We appreciate your support.
Please don't forget to like andsubscribe and tell all your
friends about the show andremember it's never just about
one thing.
Thanks for tuning into Hatchin' Creativity.
Today I get to speak with TJWoodward.
He's a clinician advocate,author and the founder of
Conscious Recovery.
We're going to be speakingabout connection, vulnerability,
good communication skills andcreating our own constructs.
We also speak aboutdisconnecting from our judgment
(00:35):
and reducing stigma by beingcurious.
If you like what you hear,please like, share, subscribe
and tell all your friends aboutHatchin' Creativity.
Tj, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, you know, I love being in conversation with
you and I love that we trustwhat, exactly what wants and
needs to emerge will.
So I'm enjoying, I'm lookingforward to the ride.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
You know, sometimes you get hit over the head with
something and you go is this themeaning of life?
You know, I do these weeklyvideos on LinkedIn and Facebook
and I share those and it'sreally just a you know something
to give people something tothink about.
I always wonder in the back ofmy head, that inner critic that
is telling you you're not reallymaking a difference and you're
(01:18):
not really doing anything.
And someone came over to me ata bike race this weekend and he
says I saw that video about whenpeople share information with
you, or people talk aboutthemselves or people share on
social media, you're really onlyseeing a snapshot of their life
and you can't really compareyour life to their life.
(01:39):
And the comment that he madewas I realized all of the
troubles that I'm having withsomebody in my life, but to the
outside world it looks likeeverything is perfect because
those are the things that Ishare.
And he was really touched bythat video and it hit me that,
hey, maybe this is why we dothis right, and this is why
(02:02):
we're here is to connect withother people and to try to make
a difference in people's lives.
And it sounds like you do thaton so many different levels.
I'd love to hear your thoughtson that.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, I mean connection is at the core of it,
and I think there are so manydifferent layers to the
conversation of connection.
So I'm going to start by justjumping into the deep end.
When we're out of, when we'redisconnected from our true
essence, we look to the world toconnect.
We look to the world to bringus a sense of love and
(02:36):
connection, and the issue withthat is it doesn't actually
create what we're really hungryfor, which is a very deep,
authentic connection.
So it's an interestingparadoxical conversation,
because the more I allow myselfto connect with others, the more
I'm connected with myself.
The more I'm connected withmyself, the more I can connect
with others.
(02:56):
When I look at it in terms ofthe work that we do, you know,
connection, having authenticconnection with our clients is
the number one tool that willhelp someone recover, and I can
say that that might be a boldstatement, and but to me that is
true, because that depth ofconnection, that authentic
connection, creates a safe spaceto start doing the deeper work
(03:18):
of examining and unlearning andall the different things we do
in therapy or in in treatment.
Connection is at the root ofwhat we all want.
I think it's the deepestlonging for every human being.
Whether we call it love orconnection, they're one in the
same, really.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
I agree and I think that also you're dealing with,
depending on background, rightand and comfort with
vulnerability can also affectability to connect with other
people and it kind of keeps usseparate, right.
You know we don't necessarilyallow ourselves to to trust, and
(03:57):
that's something that is isreally important, for that
growth.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, I mean that's.
Every year I have a theme.
I don't this wasn't reallyconscious, but I noticed myself
having a theme, and now I havean annual conference and the
theme is always tied to it.
So my theme for the year ishealing the healers.
How can I be part of helping thepeople who are in a healing
profession, whatever that is todo their own healing?
Because what you just said isso powerful, because if I'm in
(04:26):
the room and that's with apartner, that's with you know,
in in my work, that's if we'reclinicians, if I'm playing a
role, rather than really havingan authentic connection.
That that is a felt sense thatthe other person experiences
right.
So the depth of authenticconnection is being wide, open
and present for what wants toemerge, much like you and I are
(04:48):
doing right now.
What is required, though, isfor me to do a lot of my own
healing, because otherwise I'mjust in reactivity, and it's
really convenient sometimes togo into a role my role is
counselor, my role is therapist,my role is husband rather than
being really present and, to thebest of our ability, not being
in any preconceived idea aboutwhat wants to emerge in this
(05:11):
moment.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
There's a lot to unpack there.
You talk about roles, right.
I always charge against theseconstructs of what I'm expected
to be because I'm a man, whatsomeone's expected to be because
they're a woman, whatsomebody's expected to be
because they're a child or aclinician.
Those constructs can be reallydangerous and really harming for
(05:37):
people too.
What I'm hearing you say isclinicians, when working with
your clients, it's reallyimportant that you express some
vulnerability too.
If you want your clients to bevulnerable and to really open up
to you, if you really want tohelp them, that bit of
(06:00):
vulnerability is reallyimportant.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Yeah, I think it's really important to even go into
this a little more, because weknow that only 10% to 15% of the
way we communicate is verbal.
Most people, or many people,think well, the other 85% to 90%
must be body language.
I actually think most of it isenergy.
If that sounds too out there,actually we are energetic beings
(06:24):
, right?
Animals, for example, are veryattuned to energy.
That's why equine therapy canbe really powerful.
For example, if I'm saying beingvulnerable in this space with
my clients, I'm not necessarilysaying that I'm going to tell
them anything about my personallife.
Occasionally it is appropriate,but really it's an energy.
If I'm in a role, there's awhole body language, there's a
(06:44):
whole posture, but there's alsoan energy we also get into.
Why are people so burnt out ashealers?
Well, if I think the personsitting in front of me is broken
and my role is to fix them,that's not only exhausting but
it's not effective.
Right, when I'm in the roomwith someone as an equal, that
(07:05):
doesn't mean that I'm not in adifferent place in my journey.
I'm talking about energeticallybeing open and curious.
The joke I say is I'm studyingto become a cop curious, open
and present right To be reallyopen with someone, because
something can emerge that I haveno idea what's or needs to
emerge.
When I'm willing to be in thatspace, miraculous things happen
(07:28):
100%, and that needs to alsocome with lack of judgment.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, how often do we talk to other clinicians on a
personal level outside of aconversation, right?
And they go oh man, I spokewith this person today and they
were a real mess, or things likethat and you go wait a second,
let's withhold judgment and talkabout how we can help them.
(07:53):
I think that being able toseparate that judgment and to
really focus on the needs thatare really important.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, I love what you're talking about because
that's it right.
And I thought one day I wouldstop judging.
And then I realized, oh, mymind is always judging, so it's
not really about moving, it'snot really about getting rid of
the judgment.
It's about awareness, awarenessand awareness and awareness of
what the judgment creates.
So we sit in clinical meetingsyou and I have sat in clinical
(08:29):
meetings and we'll hear peoplereferred to as treatment
resistant, drug seeking, nokidding, right, if they're new
in recovery, they're unwilling,they're unparticipatory, or we
refer to them as their diagnosis.
She's a borderline and all ofthat is a judgment that creates
a barrier between me and theclient.
And so it's not because I waslike, oh, I shouldn't judge.
(08:52):
Well, nothing could be truerand less useful.
But when I started saying, wow,I wonder what this judgment is
really about, because judgmentcan also be like.
I hear people say, oh, I lovethis client, she's so willing.
That's also a judgment, right,it affects the field.
And if you're working in areally, really powerful and
authentic clinical team, you caneven talk about issues of being
(09:16):
attracted to someone or notattracted to someone or
resistant to someone, and thenyou can start to get into the
deeper work of like what are myjudgments, what are my biases,
how is this affecting the fieldand can I start to move beyond
them, which is really differentthan getting rid of them?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
For sure.
Are you familiar with thelandmark forum?
Have you ever done it?
Are you Perfect?
I went through the landmarkforum during a really difficult
time in my life and one of thethings that they did during that
class was we had to close oureyes and listen to the voice in
(09:56):
our head and I know it soundskind of silly right here.
This is in the horror movies.
You know the voices in our head.
But we had to listen to thevoice in our head and the point
was is that, no matter what,that voice is never going to
stop?
It's always there.
Good Learning to see what isthat voice saying.
(10:18):
Is it trying to protect me?
Is it trying to bring upsomething that was never
addressed in the past?
Right, or what is it trying todo?
And then accepting that forwhat it is.
As long as you fight it, forgetit.
That's going to get louder andlouder and louder and more
(10:39):
disruptive.
But quitting the fight and justlistening to what it's trying
to say is something I found tobe really helpful and I learned
that from that course.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, and really curiosity is the way we work
with judgment, because, like yousaid, we don't want to try to
stop the judgment, because thenit seems to intensify.
It's like going into meditationand saying shut up mind, shut
up mind it does not serve usright.
Some meditators are filled withthis beautiful bliss and some
are just.
That critic is just harsh andvery, very present, and they're
(11:14):
both valuable because we'rewitnessing.
So the way we actually workwith this is we start to witness
the thoughts, we realize thatwe have thoughts but we're not
our thoughts, and then in thatway all the judgments are just
almost like a movie that'splaying and we realize we're
holding the projector right andso it's not.
Let me get rid of the thoughts.
(11:34):
Let me be curious about them.
I wonder where I got that idea.
You know we have unconsciousbiases, is what we call it now,
or confirmation bias that's thecurrent kind of buzzwords around
it.
But really we all have thesebiases and beliefs.
I did a talk recently at aaddiction treatment conference
and I called it healing theunconscious biases in the
(11:55):
therapeutic alliance.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Now, that sounds smart.
That's a lot of words.
That's a lot of words.
Break it.
Break down a little bit.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
What I actually did is I said and this was early
COVID, so we were on zoom, so itwas great because I did a slide
show and I said we're not goingto process what you experience.
All I'm going to invite you todo is look at these series of
slides and see if you have athought or a body sensation.
So I would show like.
I showed a picture of an oldercouple, I showed a picture of a
(12:24):
lesbian couple, I showed apicture of a 70 year old man
holding hands with a 30 year oldwoman.
I showed a picture of someonewearing a make America great hat
.
I put it all in there and Isaid did you notice anything?
We're not going to process it,but the key is if I had any kind
of reactivity.
There's a judgment attached tothat and it's not so important
(12:45):
what the judgment is.
It's more important to realizeit's there and in the
therapeutic setting or in a.
You know, if I'm a counselor ora clinician and they walk into
the office, I have an automaticresponse.
Many of us aren't aware of them.
So I want to be curious aboutthat and see if I can look
beyond that.
Can I look Now?
This is where I would get intolike I use it.
(13:07):
I talk in spiritual terms, butI look for the spiritual essence
of that person and I look toconnect from my essence to their
essence.
Then we're way beyond our race,our age, our gender, our
orientation and all thedifferent ways that we can use
to feel separate from someone.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
You know, one of the things that we do in our
software and I think reallylends to what you're saying to
you, j2 is we track when peopleleave treatment against
therapeutic advice and we'relooking at a lot of it as social
determinants of health, butalso other factors that are
(13:45):
involved, and a lot of times,you know, clinicians may not
realize their own biases and oneof the things that we like to
look at is the clinicianinvolved, the case manager
involved and then someinformation on the client
themselves, because what we findis it makes a pretty.
(14:11):
It definitely helps in decidingwhich clinicians should be
working with which clients andit uncovers a lot of those
biases that we don't even knowwe have.
I hear people say all the timeI can't be racist, I have a
black friend, right, you know.
Funny story, yeah, when I metmy father-in-law and he's a real
(14:35):
character and he says, mike,you're Jewish, he said, yeah, he
says I'm a big fan of Jews, myaccountant is Jewish, my
attorney's Jewish and so is mybusiness partner.
I love the Jews.
Oh, wow, I said, well, I'mreally glad I filed my horns
down and I was here for youtoday, right, you know, the
(15:00):
thing is is people don't realizethese biases.
Yeah, and it can be harmful,especially in a therapeutic
setting, these kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, so you are now talking about when I'm with you.
I'm like our next show could be.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
I know there's just so many of these.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
The next show is really what I'm the most
passionate about, and that ishealing the seeming divisions in
the world.
Right, and if I'm only….
Speaker 1 (15:27):
You should run for president.
That's what I want to see,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
I'm not going to say never, because then I'll end up.
You know, my friend is runningfor president right now and I
hold her in high esteem for herbravery in doing it, but that is
definitely not my calling.
But what I will say is I'd loveto be a spiritual advisor to
someone who's president, becausereally, the deeper work here is
to not finger point, and that'swhat we saw emerge like in 2020
(15:56):
when all this came up aboutrace, where people were like
pointing fingers at who theracist was instead of being
accountable, and I think whatwe're invited to do is look.
And what I encountered duringthat process being married to a
person of color added a layer toit, because we had some very,
very deep and uncomfortableconversations.
(16:17):
But what I discovered issomething that I knew but I
didn't really feel the deepimpact of, and that is I loved
my grandfather very much and hewas an overt racist overt.
And what did I do with that as aperson?
As a young person, I rejectedit like, oh that's horrible, oh
that's terrible.
But I realize now how did Iwork with the complexity of
(16:40):
loving this man and rejectingthat part and what seeped in,
basically and I grew up inIndiana in the 1970s and we were
swimming in racism, swimming inanti-semitism, swimming in
homophobia I mean, it goes on inmisogyny for sure.
So there was no escaping thatRight and ultimately I rejected
(17:04):
all of that.
But I had to startacknowledging that when I met a
person, was I looking at them astheir role and it could be the
role of their gender, their raceor am I actually being present
with that person and willing tobe curious about my biases, not
get rid of them?
That, I think, is the key.
Oh, I could say I could talkfor an hour, but I'll stop.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
I was just going to say we're about to go down this
rabbit hole, tj, because whatcomes to my mind is June being
Pride Month.
In the beginning of the month, Ihad shared a post that went
something to the effect of Idon't remember exactly what it
(17:48):
was, but it was something to theeffect of it's very hard when
someone you love or you careabout is making their voting
decisions and life decisions ina manner that takes away your
rights and takes away yourability to exist.
(18:11):
Actually, tj, I'm going to pauseright here and I'm going to
actually read what that quotewas, because this is really
exactly what, and I went backand forth with several people
about this exact thing, becauseyou want to like people and you
have these people that you dolike, but at the same time.
(18:33):
So so I shared this post onFacebook in the beginning of
Pride Month, and the post saidmay you never know the fear of
having your human rightschallenged every time there's an
election, yeah, and may younever know the pain of watching
your loved ones vote againstyour rights to exist fully,
(18:55):
equally and authentically.
And, unfortunately, what endsup happening is people's biases
create this.
But then, how you're talkingabout your grandfather, how do
you write sit when somebody youlove is making conscious
(19:16):
decisions that hurt you andremove your ability to exist
fully as you are?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Well, there are some big layers here, and if we look
at it only through the politicallens which is not my normal
lens, but I want to start therethat's the issue with two party
system.
I mean that really is rightbecause, like I can agree with
parts of this and parts of thisand then end up voting my
conscious over here and thatmight have a negative impact on
someone who I love's life andthat's very, very complex and
(19:50):
that's not really ourconversation, or not my
conversation, but I think that'simportant to note, that I think
the the.
So I'm going to say, I'm goingto tell it as a story.
So my dad and his wife they saythey live in LA, lower Alabama,
and I live in the other LA, inCalifornia, and my dad and his
(20:11):
wife came to visit and mystepmother, who I adore, said,
gosh, people in LA are sofriendly.
That's not what I was told theywere going to be.
And I said I bet you, if wewalked around the streets of Los
Angeles and asked people whatthey thought about people from
lower Alabama, there would alsobe a lot of judgment.
And so we have these ideas thatcome from tribalism.
(20:32):
Right, I think, if we look back, we had to find tribes of
people to stay safe and stayalive, and in some cases that
still might be true, but in mostcases that is antiquated and
we've moved beyond that andthere's still something that's
innate that thinks we think weneed to find our tribe.
You know one example.
You know as an LGBT well, as agay man, I'm not going to give
(20:55):
myself all that, all theinitials, but you know, in the
80s it was all about we want tofight for our rights.
Right, there was a lot offighting for our rights.
And then I remember the 90s.
You know we're coming out ofAIDS and all the layers of that,
and I lived in San Francisco.
We want equal rights, we wantequal rights.
And then when they decided theywere going to have the F market
train come to the Castro, gaypeople protested.
(21:18):
We don't want them in ourneighborhood.
I'm like, wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
What's the F market train?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
It's a train that came from Fisherman's Wharf and
downtown and was going to cometo the Castro and they people
were like we don't want them inour neighborhood.
I'm like, wait, weren't weadvocating for equal rights?
So it's like, in some ways,even though we might say we want
love and acceptance, we alsomight unconsciously still want
(21:43):
to keep our tribe over here andwant to be separate from.
There's nothing inherentlywrong with that, but we want to
ask what it's creating.
When I see myself as part ofthis group, am I missing an
opportunity to realize that wehave more similarities than
differences?
What I'm not saying is thosedifferences aren't important to
celebrate.
What I am saying is can we cometogether in a much deeper way
(22:05):
and move beyond the LA, la,that's?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
great.
I had an interestingconversation, similar but
different, but similar, and itbrings it back to the
conversation around connection,right?
Because that's really what thiswhole conversation started as.
And I remember I was at aconference and for the people
(22:29):
that are listening to this thatdon't know, both TJ and I work
in substance use treatment andmental health field and I had a
conversation.
I was with a group of peopleand they asked me if I was in
recovery.
When people say are you inrecovery, they're referring to
from substance use or somethingalong those lines, usually from
(22:51):
some sort of disordered behavior.
When they asked me that now,somebody who is not in recovery
usually will not ask somebody ifthey're in recovery.
That's kind of not a cool thingto ask.
But when somebody who's inrecovery says to somebody who's
(23:12):
not, are you in recovery?
And your response is I am notin recovery from substance use
disorder, and their response toyou is, oh, you're a normie, and
they start laughing at you.
And what I found was that's thesame kind of thing, right,
because that stigma thateverybody's trying to remove,
(23:37):
which is exactly what you said,right?
Not in my neighborhood, not inmy neighborhood Do we want to be
with this person, hang out withthis person who is not
struggling with the same thingswe have but at the same time,
like my, life is dedicated tohelping people who are dealing
(23:58):
with these things.
So I think, to wrap it all up,it's really important to make
that effort to understand and toconnect with people, as opposed
to focusing on that divisionand the things that we're not
alike.
That's right.
Yeah, I mean further.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, I mean I love what you're saying about this
normie thing, because I cringewhen I hear that term and I
actually heard a therapist inour field doing a presentation
and he kept using the termnormie and I'm thinking well,
first of all, we're saying ifyou have a substance use
disorder, you're abnormal.
We're literally saying that.
But we're also separatingourselves.
I remember I worked for oneprogram amazing work.
(24:39):
I happen to be the only personin recovery there, which is kind
of the very unusual thing.
What happens a lot of times isclients will say well, are you
in recovery?
And then they want to follow itby.
Well, if you're not in recovery, you can't possibly understand
me.
And we know that's not true,because the human experience and
this is where we really drilldown to something much deeper we
(25:01):
all have the human experience.
We have different experiencesthat create how we perceive the
world, but at the core of it,we've all had the same
experience we could do a wholeshow on.
Is addiction a disease and isit not a disease?
Is it maybe partially a diseaseand not?
And what does all that create?
But what I'll say is when I sayto someone I'm different
(25:24):
because I have this, that'swhere we start to create more
separation rather thanconnection, and we want to start
to explore that awareness,awareness and awareness.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
TJ, I thank you so much.
This is outstanding.
I love having you on and I lookforward to bringing you on
again soon.
Can you tell people where tofind your contact info and how
to get in touch with you?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, absolutely TJwoodwordcom, very simple.
Thanks so much, tj.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Thanks for tuning in to Hatchin' Creativity.
We appreciate your support.
Please don't forget to like andsubscribe and tell all your
friends about the show andremember it's never just about
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