September 12, 2023 • 43 mins
Are you ready to level up your leadership skills and cultivate a thriving company culture? Brace yourself for a session with performance strategist Lee Povey, where we unpack the art of effective leadership and the key to creating a supportive corporate environment. We explore the concept of feedback in-depth, and how acting upon it can instill trust, enhance performance, and foster a positive working atmosphere.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Hatching Creativity.
This isn't just anotherbehavioral health podcast.
This is the place where thoughtleaders converge to talk about
real-life challenges,breakthroughs and pivotal aha
moments.
Thanks for tuning in toHatching Creativity.
In today's episode, I'mspeaking with Lee Povey from
Povey Performance.
(00:20):
Now I know Lee from the cyclingworld, where he was the US
Olympic Development Coach and avery well-decorated cyclist
himself.
Now he's a coach of a wholedifferent kind.
His goal is to help executivesand leaders build strategies
about being the most effectivepeople they can be.
Today, we speak about bestpractices around effective
(00:41):
leadership and building asupportive corporate culture by
asking and acting on feedbackfrom your staff.
And if you like what you hear,please like, share, subscribe
and tell all your friends aboutHatching Creativity.
I am really excited for today'sguest, lee Povey.
Lee and I go back quite a bitand have done quite a bit of
(01:02):
bike racing together.
Lee, would you like to do abrief introduction of yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Hey, mike.
Yeah, I'm a performancestrategist, so I now work with
founders and their companies,and the simplest way to describe
it is I help them understandthemselves on a level so that
they can be the most effectiveversions of themselves.
There's a bit of teaching inthat leadership skills,
(01:28):
communication skills, andthere's a lot of kind of
understanding work.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Are you speaking with founders and getting a better
understanding of where theirskills are and where they need
complementary people on theirteam, or tell me a little bit
more about that?
That's fascinating.
I didn't know that's what youwere doing.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, thanks, mike.
It really depends on eachindividual.
The way I look at it, thepeople that I tend to work with
are very smart and usuallystruggle to delegate and also
struggle to trust others.
So they struggle with that, youknow.
They're like I could just dobetter, so what?
(02:07):
I just do it?
Well then, there's a limit tohow much you can get done if you
are doing everything.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
We talk about that all the time because we say how
you only have so many hours inthe day, right, and you never
want to be the smartest personin the room.
So I think that kind of lendsto what you're talking about
maybe building a good teamaround you.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, my clients typically are the smartest
person in the room and that'sokay.
That's why they're the founder,that's why they're the person
creating this business, and theyneed to learn how to work well
with others, and that comes froman understanding of themselves
and what might show up for themwhen they work with others, and
(02:53):
then also from a greaterunderstanding themselves,
understanding how to relate wellto other people, and especially
people that might not do it asfast as they might do it or
might not quite do it to theirpreferred, which is okay.
There's a business guru calledSeth Godin, so if you ever come
across him, he's like he'sreally, really good.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Seth Godin, seth Godin, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Podcasts and he's brilliant.
Yeah, and one of his sayings isgood enough is better than
perfect.
So you know the kind of peopleI work with.
They want everything to beperfect, and sometimes things
just need to be good enough andthen you can move on to the next
.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Sometimes you also learn that it doesn't always
have to be your way right, andwe create things all the time
and you have a vision in yourhead of how you want your
business to look or youroperations to look or your
systems to look.
And then you bring somebody onand they don't see it the same
way you do.
It doesn't mean they're wrong,but being open-minded to the
(03:59):
possibility that somebody couldhave a good idea that could make
your business better is alsoreally important.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So there's that kind of just working with the ego as
well, of it's okay for somebodyelse to be smart too.
And it's okay for you know ifyou say it's okay for somebody
to have a different vision toyou, as long as it fits in the
overall goal of where thecompany is going.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Do you remember the cartoon Voltron?
Did you ever watch that showwhen you were a kid?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I don't think so.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, so there was a show called Voltron and Voltron
was all of these little robotkind of action heroes and they
all had their own superpowers.
But when the superpowers allcome together into the big giant
robot, right, it creates thisunstoppable force that, no
(04:52):
matter how bad the bad guys areright, they're never going to
overcome this Voltron.
And we've got a teammate, chrisRivera, and Chris started with
us as a contractor softwaredeveloper who is a contractor
and he built himself into ourchief technology officer and
then he built himself in.
Now he's our chief operatingofficer and Chris always talks
(05:15):
about our team as the Voltron,right, and that's kind of what
you want to do.
Where you've got.
The whole is way bigger thanthe sum of all the parts.
What are some of the beststrategies that you could say to
somebody who is starting theirown business or a treatment
(05:37):
center, a healthcare clinic thatcan help them to find the right
people that can help them getwhere they want to go?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, I think instinct is actually for people
that don't know me, I'm veryscience and data driven.
You know, former elite sportscoach, everything was about the
data, analyzing everything andnot but, and we tend to have
(06:08):
pretty good instincts as humanbeings around other human beings
on our relationship to them.
So employ people that make youfeel good, employ people that
you think I'm going to have agood working relationship with
this person.
Then you configure the rest ofit out.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
It also leads to the culture that creates the culture
at your company that you wantto work at.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, yeah, and that's another important piece
as well.
You know, I see leaders thatalmost suffer in silence working
with people that they don'tnecessarily like or they don't
get on with, and we spend themajority of our time in our work
environment.
Even now, most of the people Iwork with are in a remote or
hybrid situation, but you stillhave a meeting all day, every
(06:52):
day, with these people.
You could, you're actuallyenjoy the work.
So that's the first thing, youknow work with people that you
enjoy working with.
And then just be really honest.
You know, do they have theskill sets?
And if they don't, and it's notworking out make that decision
quickly.
Again, I see people work withpeople for an extended period of
time.
(07:13):
They know are not really goingto work out, but they don't want
the they don't want todifficult conversations, so they
avoid the difficultconversations, so they keep
working around somebody ratherthan either coaching the person
to be better at their job orgoing hey, this isn't working
and that's okay.
We see firing people, lettingpeople go.
(07:33):
Is this really bad thing?
And it's not, because whatyou're doing is you're allowing
them to get to what they shouldbe doing faster, because if it
isn't working with you, thenyou're actually getting in their
wire of what they should bedoing, lee, you just hit on a
few things that I want to justrecall back, because there's
some things that really stoodout.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
The first is an expression my dad used to always
say, which was if you're given100 envelopes and you're told
that one of those envelopes has$100 bill in it, and you open
the first couple envelopes andyou don't have that $100 bill,
what's your reaction?
Do you get disappointed that youdon't have it or do you say I'm
(08:17):
that much closer to the goal?
Right, and that's a really goodway of looking at hiring too.
We've had to let people go fromtime to time, and it's always
hard because genuinely in ourcompany we love the people
people as people but sometimesthe fit isn't right and while
(08:39):
it's really hard to do that, theother point that you had just
made which is really importantis you have to hire slow and
make good decisions on hiring,but you have to let go very
quickly when something becomesnot working or something is not
working as it should.
And we look at a thing at ourcompany.
(09:02):
We call it skill sets versuspersonality, because a skill set
can always be learned, but ifyour personality isn't right,
then it definitely is going toaffect the longevity of the
relationship or the longevity,of how they fit into the culture
.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And that's tiring, mike, you know we've all been
there working with people, that.
And you don't have to be bestfriends with people, you don't
have to have to share the samehobbies, you don't have to have
the same interests, you don'tneed to be close friends, but
you need to respect their workand like them.
That's important.
Otherwise it's just soemotionally draining to be
(09:45):
working with people.
You know like, oh, do I have toget on a meeting with that
person?
Oh, I don't really want to.
And we've all been there, we'veall been in these situations
where you're working with peopleto think this isn't right for
me, this isn't right for them.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
You know, we had somebody that worked for us for
a little while.
She was here for a few monthsand when I looked at the resume
and I saw that she had veryshort tenure at many companies,
that was a first red flag, right.
And I always I do a lot ofspeaking on human resources and
hiring and always say ifsomebody's averaging three to
(10:20):
six months at a job, you are notgoing to be the one to change
that or break that cycle.
Don't put yourself in thatposition, right?
And I remember she was here andshe kept saying that the whole
company felt like a club and shewas on the outside and at the
same time, her attitude and herpersonality was so negative and
(10:44):
such a dream that it wasn't thatpeople didn't make an attempt
to get to know her.
It was that she was boxingherself out of the culture of
communication and you know,these are again personality
things you recognize.
She was pretty good at what shedid, but nobody could stand
working with her.
So the other thing I was goingto ask you about you mentioned
(11:08):
data driven and you talk aboutdata and we talk about data a
lot in behavioral health care.
We also talk about data a lotbecause we're a software company
and the importance of data.
You had talked a little bitabout building a team.
What kind of data would you belooking at and what should
somebody be tracking or wantingto keep track of to build a good
(11:34):
culture?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean there's various tools so you can do
things like 360s for yourleaders.
So a leader might have animpression of themselves and
think, oh, this is how I lead,this is how I work, this is how
I run my company.
And then we do a 360, which isto interview the most important
people in their life, the peoplethat work with them anonymously
(11:58):
, so that they give that reallygood, clear feedback.
And we're skilled at makingsure that we get the right
feedback out people in the rightquestions to ask, so we get a
pretty good look at how thatperson actually shows up in the
work.
And then we can use that withthe leader to say well, here's
how you think you show up,here's how your team is
(12:19):
reflecting you show up.
How do we get from one to theother?
Where do you want to be andwhat needs to change for you to
get to where you'd like to beinstead?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I love that, so your company, so you do things like
that.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I source that to other companies that specialize
in that work, and then I use thereport with the founder of the
company or with the CEO, or withthe executive team, depending
on who we're doing the 360 with.
So you know, when you'relooking at culture, it's very
clear culture comes to the top.
So how the founder is is howthe rest of the company is going
(12:57):
to be, because they are settingthe tone for the company.
Or how the CEO is, they'resetting the tone for the company
.
So if you're going to changeculture, you've got to start
there first.
You know, I've been incompanies where they're very
about and this happens oftenwhere they're very about looking
after their staff and makingsure the staff take enough time
(13:17):
off and they don't overwork.
And then the founder works 80hours a week and it doesn't
matter what their policy is.
Everybody's looking at thefounder and going well, there's
still in the office, so I shouldprobably still be in the office
, and then the founder goes.
I don't understand it, ladies.
People don't take time off.
I can't get them to rest, theywill burn out, like here's the
(13:39):
mirror.
Let's reflect back how youbehave and then how that sets
the tone for the company andculture.
People make culture morecomplicated than it is.
It's not actually thatcomplicated.
Just be a decent human being.
If your colleague reaches outto you for something, respond to
your colleague.
Have an idea of what you'rethere to do.
(14:01):
So I work with a lot of kind ofnewer tech companies and you
know Google set the store therethat you have to have on site
massage, therapists and playrooms and all of these things.
When we actually look at whathuman beings need, none of that
stuff really matters.
(14:24):
You get paid what you believe isa fair rate for the work you're
doing, so a market comparablecompensation.
You understand your role in theorganization, so you get
feedback from the people thatyou work with.
You get feedback from your teamleaders, your managers, the CEO
, whatever saying.
This is how you fit into ourculture and this is how you are
(14:47):
fitting into the mission and youunderstand what the mission of
the company is and that you'realigned with it.
So if you work in a companythat you don't understand what
the mission is, you don't knowhow you fit into.
It Doesn't really matter howmuch money you get paid.
You're going to eventually feeldisenfranchised, disheartened,
like I don't understand why I'mhere.
(15:08):
And if you don't get feedbackabout it.
So you don't get clear feedbackof am I doing a good job?
Am I not doing a good job?
Where's my areas for growth?
Again, people get reallyunsettled.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Talk about that, the bonus structure staff, the you
know the unlimited pay, time offand things like that.
They sound great and there canbe a place for them.
They're not really what keepspeople in businesses.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I really like what you said about letting people
know if they're doing a good job, and it's really important to
have those benchmarks set aheadof time.
I'm guilty of that at times.
You know, we get busy in ourown day, we get busy in doing
(15:56):
our particular role, and thensomebody's work anniversary
comes around and you go oh crap,we haven't had any kind of
performance review or evaluationor discussion about what
they've been doing versusexpectations, and I think that's
really important, that that's areally good point that you let
(16:19):
people know how are they meeting, how are they working towards
meeting your expectations.
It's huge, and one of thethings that is really helpful in
our software that we do is wehave anonymous employee
satisfaction surveys looking atemployer, the leadership of the
(16:43):
company, the management team,your workplace safety, culture,
all of those things.
But, as you mentioned, it's allabout the data.
If you're conducting surveys andyou know in behavioral health
it's required that you'recollecting surveys from your
staff that if you're collectingthem in a manner that doesn't
(17:04):
allow you to aggregate the dataand actually use it for anything
of importance, then what endsup happening?
Is it actually works againstdoing these surveys, because
anytime you ask somebody to dosomething like a survey or for
their feedback on anything, andif they you don't do anything
with it, they remember thatreally well and then they say,
(17:26):
oh well, they're just wasting mytime.
Conversely, if you take thesesurveys and you look at them
with your management team andyou look at them with an
objective opinion and you lookat them objectively, you can see
(17:48):
a lot of areas that people canimprove.
I know you and I have spoken acouple of times about Ted Lasso
and I love the analogy of hissuggestion box and everybody
just you know, they call, callthem a wanker and everybody just
nobody showed him any respectuntil he took the one suggestion
(18:09):
and did something with it.
And that sounds like exactlywhat you're saying.
I love your concepts on culturetoo.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
People just you know, ultimately we're all little
kids that wanna be loved.
It's really not much morecomplicated than that.
We're walking through the worldtrying to find ways to be seen
and be loved.
So if we come from thatunderstanding you know the
people working with you, for youthey wanna be recognized.
(18:37):
And, as you say, if we go tothem and say, you know how does
your manager show up?
What are the things that youneed to do your job better?
And then we don't do them, well, then they feel unloved because
, as far as they're concerned,they're now being actively
ignored and there's a differencebetween being well.
They just don't know what Ineed to.
Okay, now you're activelyignoring me because I told you
(18:59):
what I need and you're still notdoing that.
So, yeah, I completely agreewith you Don't do a survey if
you're not gonna put, if you'renot gonna put the results of it
into action and at least explain.
You know, I think I runworkshops on communication, so I
run workshops on how to givefeedback and I'm well-classic
(19:19):
given feedback.
And the reason I'm well-classicgiven feedback is because I
used to be absolutely atrociousat given feedback.
I mean, you might have evenseen this, mike, as a sports
coach.
At times I would see somebodydoing something and I'd go up to
them and like, why are youdoing?
it like that.
Why don't you do it like this?
Instead, you're gonna go faster.
Now, my intent was always froma place of love, of like I love
(19:41):
the sport, I love track cycling,I love seeing people be better.
I'm trying to help them.
But my delivery was appallingand the impact would be these
people would feel judged, they'dfeel belittled, they'd feel
slighted, and I couldn'tunderstand it, because I'm like
I have a fairly tough skinaround feedback.
So I'd be like great, tell meall the stuff.
(20:01):
I don't care if you can tell mehow to do it faster.
But I realized I'm a little bitdifferent from most people like
that and actually the way youdeliver the feedback has a huge
impact on how the feedback isbeing received.
The feedback can be basicallythe same feedback, but the words
used to change it completely,and I realized I wasn't asking
for permission and that's a hugebit about giving feedback.
(20:24):
So I teach people now, whenthey're giving feedback, the
first thing is hey, you open tosome feedback on this.
Then the next bit is what'syour experience?
Hey, I saw this.
You know how did it go for you?
What did you think?
That's part of the datagathering.
Okay, right, oh, they know whatthey're not doing well and now
I can target what to do to helpthem.
It changed my world as asporting coach.
(20:46):
But I had to upset a few peopleto get there, to go.
Hang on a second.
I'm not being as effective asI'd like to be.
How do I flip this around tobecome more effective?
And then I started studying howto give feedback and learning
more about human beings andstudying what high performance
really meant.
And it's all partnerships.
Like you know, work culture ispartnerships.
(21:08):
Just telling people what to dodoesn't make people feel very
valued, so the more autonomy youcan give them while they
understand how they fit into theoverall mission is incredibly
powerful, and that's what we'realways trying to do is empower
your staff to be leaders forthemselves and for their own
(21:28):
departments and in the company.
You know I'm a basketball fan,so it's.
You know I moved to America,you know, 10 years ago.
I've got to pick some Americansport to be able to talk to
people about.
I tried football.
It takes four or enough hours.
I haven't got the patience forthat.
I'm a sprinter like that.
I can't do that.
But baseball takes even longer.
I watched Icehockey.
(21:50):
I couldn't follow the park I'mlike I can't see what's going on
.
So okay, basketball I can getit.
They're athletes.
They sprint really fast.
There's a skill element to it.
I could understand it and Ilived in the Bay Area, so I
became a warrior fan and for me,I think one of the biggest
parts about the Warriors successapart from having the best
(22:10):
point guard ever in Steph Curryis their team atmosphere and
ethos and everybody's encouragedto be a leader on the floor.
You don't often see Steve Kerberrating his players.
He's very upbeat and he truststhem a lot and he gives them a
lot of trust and then he'llcourse correct as needed, and I
think for me, that is great.
(22:31):
Leadership is trusting thepeople that you're working with,
giving them opportunities whenthey fail.
Teachers are learningopportunity, not a discipline
opportunity Yep.
And obviously people can't dothe job.
As we said earlier about hiring, there's some people that just
are not suited for the role, andif they keep not being able to
do the role, that's one thing.
Most of us just need training,we just need support.
(22:53):
It's like oh, what did youlearn from that?
Okay, how are you going to dothat differently next time?
Like, if that go, go and do it,let's see how you get on.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Sure.
Well, you know, my dad alwayshad an expression and I've been
using this since I was a kid andhe says tacked is the ability
to make a point without makingan enemy and having an
understanding of the experienceof somebody else.
Right, we talk about trauma allthe time and one of the side
(23:26):
effects of trauma is a traumaresponse.
Sometimes people think thatthey're okay with criticism, or
even if it's a constructivecriticism, but when they get
criticized, the word used, thecontext used, the tone of voice
used could really trigger traumaresponses and do the opposite
(23:49):
of what you're looking to do.
You know, even if you'relooking to just hey, you hired
me as a coach to give you goodinformation.
That's exactly what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I'm not trying to offend you, but you know, being
able to step back and look ateverybody's life experiences and
how they're different can alsobe really important with that
you know, for me, movingcountries made me have to be a
better coach because a culturehere is very different to the
(24:21):
culture in the UK and I justdidn't know that until I moved
here.
People are blunter in the UK,much more direct with their
feedback in the UK than they aretypically in America.
So you know, I went with thatkind of British.
You know, one of my friends wasI hope I can throw in his
podcast one of my friends wouldsay one of the first things I
(24:42):
said to her is well the fuck,you're doing it like that, mate.
This American guy is looking atme like that.
Why it's just a differentculture, you know, same as
Australians are very blunt anddirect as well.
And it made me have to reallystop and think about again.
Coming back to that word ofbeing effective, how can I be
(25:03):
effective?
Because the way I've done itbefore, that worked before in a
different culture, is no longerworking here.
So I've got to change.
And I can say, well, I'mBritish, that's the way I behave
.
Or I can say I need to changeand adapt to be more effective.
And you know, one nugget fromme about leadership is I
(25:24):
strongly believe the bestleaders are the most adaptable
leaders.
When I hear somebody talk abouttheir leadership style, I
immediately know they're goingto have limitations in their
leadership, because if they havea leadership style, that means
that they can only work withpeople that work with that
leadership style and I believeyou've got to adapt yourself to
(25:46):
meet everybody where they're attheir level of education, their
level of understanding aboutwhat you're doing, their
communication level.
And another G I like to use alot about feedback is a cookie
jar, and I used to use thisabout track sprint, cycling,
right.
So you know, michael, know thisis sprint athletes you have so
much energy in your system thatyou can use in an effort and
(26:08):
once it's gone you need time torecover and replenish the cookie
jar.
Well, feedback is the same.
When somebody gives youcritical or opportunity feedback
, it has a hit.
And when somebody gives youappreciation, acknowledgement
and compliments, that's puttingcookies into the jar.
(26:30):
And then when somebody givesyou that, hey, here's something
I think you missed that's takensome cookies out of the jar,
what I see a lot is empty cookiejars and when you get to that
point, the person can no longerreceive any kind of critical
feedback.
And I'll often see this whenI'm working in relationships and
companies.
A manager will say I can'ttrain this person anymore.
(26:54):
Whatever I say, they argue withme, they get defensive.
The first thing I say to them ishow often do you praise them?
How often do you point out whatthey do well, and they'll kind
of look at me blankly like whatdo you mean?
Like how much time do you spendacknowledging them as a human
being?
And usually it's very little tonone.
(27:14):
And it's not because they'rebad people, it's because they
believe their job is to tell youwhat you're not doing well
Right.
If you don't also tell peoplewhat they're doing well.
Going back to what makessomebody feel good in a company,
they don't know how they'repart of the mission, they don't
know what is they're doing right.
And we've got to point out whatthey're doing right.
(27:34):
And the best leaders do that ona round of 50-50 scale.
So it's 50%.
Here's all the stuff you'redoing well, 50% opportunities
and not in the old sandwich oneof like here's a compliment.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Not the shit sandwich , not the shit sandwich.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Here's a compliment.
Here's the thing that I needyou to do better.
Or here's another complimentfor the icing on the top.
We actually find it's better ifyou just stick to the
individual things at a time.
You see somebody doingsomething well, point that out.
You see some opportunity, pointthat out.
Don't think you need to play agame with them, just be
(28:09):
mountaining your own self.
Am I giving this person enoughpraise?
And almost nobody, even thebest leaders, really struggle to
do that.
Given enough price.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
There's a couple of things that you hit on here
that's, in my opinion, reallyimportant.
We have a similar type of aconversation with our
13-year-old daughter and werefer to it as our emotional
bank account, and you've got tomake deposits before you can
take out of that bank account,right?
And if all you're doing istaking and taking and if every
(28:45):
conversation is a pull fromsomebody's emotional bank
account, sooner or later thatperson's going to lower that
entrance into it and you're notgoing to be able to get in and
you're going to have a wall whenyou're trying to relate to
somebody.
So it is really important.
I like the cookie jar aspect aswell.
(29:06):
You know we have to give ifwe're going to take.
The other thing that I think isreally important that you
mentioned, lee, is authenticity.
You know you didn't use theword, but what I'm hearing you
say is having an authenticrelationship, that feedback is
(29:28):
given.
So authentic feedback is goodand it's corrective at the same
time.
It's almost like the.
Oftentimes managers feel likethey have to play this role and
anytime we try to fit into arole or a construct, that's when
(29:50):
we're not authentic.
Right, we're trying to do thismanager role or this parent role
.
I always found it's much easierto just talk on the authentic
level about what I'm thinking,what I'm experiencing.
What are you thinking andexperiencing, rather than trying
to put boss and employee roleor any of that Speaking of.
(30:15):
Have you ever read the bookFlat Army?
Are you familiar with it?
Flat Army, they talk a lotabout this and it's really
talking about hierarchy, andoftentimes when you have a
hierarchy in a company, it's I'mabove you or you're below me,
and the Flat Army really talksabout a hierarchy that doesn't
(30:40):
involve that and it involves anoverall team rowing in the same
direction for the same goal,which is exactly what you were
talking about about everybodybeing understanding of where
they fit in their contributionto the overall mission.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot that I could
respond to there and I didn'trespond to earlier, but I just
want to say that sounds like alovely guy.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
He is, he's, he's my best dude, he absolutely what a
bunch of pearls of wisdom there.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I can understand how you're the man you are.
I Just go back to you knowwe're little kids that need to
be seen and loved and you knowsome of the work I do,
especially with leadership teams, is we actually we do what we
call essence and survivalmechanism work.
So the essence is what are thegenetic personality traits you
(31:33):
were born with?
So my mum fostered a hundredkids over a 10-year period Maybe
high-risk kids, so reasonablyshort stay and I helped her with
some of that and I watched someof that happen and I learned a
lot about human behavior just onthat period.
I was in my late teens andearly 20s when it was happening.
And then, as I study and learnmore now it's this mix of nature
(31:57):
versus nurture.
Well, some of it is.
We are born with certain genetictraits.
Any parent will tell youthey've got more than one child
and children are different andthey just have different genetic
traits, right?
Some are really outgoing, someare more introverted, some are
very curious, some aren't verycurious.
And Then we enter the world.
(32:19):
We enter off our familial youknow situations.
We're growing up, we getfeedback and we get feedback on
those genetic personality traits, and then we adapt because we
want to fit in right.
So we've got to adapt to ourfamily system, we got that to
our school system, our cultureof our countries, the culture of
where we grew up.
(32:40):
So we adapt and then we put onwhat we call some vital
mechanisms, and these areshields to protect us From the
way the world is viewing usabout how we are as a person.
So as a kid I was incrediblycurious.
Well, I often got told to shutup because I'm asking so many
questions.
People are like enough.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Okay, kid, shut up.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
And.
I get it but then you build ashield around that right to
protect myself from being toldto shut up, because little kids
Don't like being told to shut up.
I just want to be loved andheard.
So some of the work I do withleadership teams is we actually
establish these Essences andsurvival mechanisms and they
know each other survivalmechanisms.
So then they start to look outfor it and own as well when
(33:25):
they're showing up as it andthey're like, oh, I'm showing up
like this.
So you know my essence is ourbrilliance, playing, vision,
connection and presence.
I'm very aware of what's goingon.
I'm very strategic mind to seepatterns and what's going on.
I'm, if I'm with you and verypresent, you're gonna know I'm
in the room, I have a presence.
You know me.
I'm reasonably big physicallyand you'll know I'm there.
(33:48):
But I'm also very good at beingwith people and listen to them
and seeing them very deeply,which is why I can do the work I
do when my survival mechanismsone is tyrannical Einstein.
You know, I didn't have thebenefit of a very good father.
My father was about as bad asthe father can come.
So to protect myself I justused my smartness.
(34:11):
So I was smarter than him and Iwould use that to protect
myself from him and the damagethat he could do.
Well, that doesn't work so wellas an adult, right?
You know, nobody wants to bearound a tyrant and I have very
high standards and that wouldcome out in tyrannical ways.
Why haven't you done this?
Why isn't it done the way Iwant it done?
Why haven't you done this and I, until I gained understanding
(34:34):
around it?
It would affect myrelationships.
So people would see this reallysweet kind of loving part men
and be like why are you showingup like this?
If I know that in a leadershipteam, I can share that with the
other leaders in the team andsay, hey guys, if I start to get
really stressed, you might seesome of this behavior, I'm okay
with you calling out a reminderand then what I do is for me, if
(34:58):
I start to feel myself becominga tyrant, I lean back into my
essence of play.
It's very hard to be a playfultyrant, so I, you know I'll take
the piss off myself and I'lllaugh at myself, or I'll go go
kind or I'll.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
You know, I'll do something competitive With a
play element to it thatexercises that part of me so
that I don't bring that so muchinto the workplace Do you have
any ideas or thoughts on how youcan recognize your own patterns
of defense there for people whomay not really know where their
(35:35):
own patterns are hidden,Because it's hide right.
It's not something that we'renot supposed to be aware of.
This right, this is yoursubconscious coming out.
How would you recommendsomebody find out or realize
what their defenses are?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
The only way I've seen it done, or I've been able
to do it, is to have therapy orcoaching.
You've got to have that outsidereflection and perspective.
It's you know, you named itvery accurately it's the shadow
self, as Carl Jung woulddescribe it.
So it's these parts ofourselves that we know exist and
(36:18):
we, you know you're in arelationship with somebody.
You think I just felt ickyright now.
Why do I feel icky?
What's this about?
So you know it's there, butit's very hard for us to look at
.
And also we usually have a lotof negative judgment of this
part of myself.
You know, when my coaches said,right, we're going to call this
part of you tyrannical,einstein, I'm like I don't want
to be a tyrant, like, fuck you,I don't think of myself as a
(36:40):
tyrant.
And then they're like, well,reflect on this behavior.
I'm like, oh God, yeah, I'm atyrant.
So you know, I think it's veryhard to do with outside
reflection.
That's why people pay me a lotof money to come in, because the
work is incredibly powerful andonce you see it, then you can't
go back.
You know, once we, once we givepeople these names, it's
(37:02):
impossible to go back from it,unless you're a sociopath and
you just don't have any empathy.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
But you know, for us as normal human beings.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
You can't come back from that and it changes the
world, the way that you see theworld.
Your experience of the world isjust different.
And then you know my wife willreflect to me when I'm behaving
like that and I've nowestablished two more survival
mechanisms.
So one is heartbroken headshock.
So people had often describedme as a bit prickly to begin
(37:30):
with, but then once I get to 90,unlike this big teddy bear and
I remember when I did theOlympic development program, the
athletes were so scared of meto begin with.
I'm like one of the othercoaches, like lead, they're
really scared of you and I'mlike I don't understand why.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I'm like I'm gonna do anything to really lovely.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
But I have a certain presence and some of that is to
protect myself from being hurtright, because I'm quite soft.
So to protect myself.
There's a bit of a shield andthat's that hedgehog part of it.
And then one of the young girlson the program, like a few
months in or whatever said ohI've got it, you're just a big,
soft teddy bear, like, I'm notscared of you anymore.
So it's knowing that we havethese things and I've known for
(38:10):
me as a obnoxious hero.
So I love to be the hero.
You know, I want to be at us tohelp you.
I don't want to be able to saveyou, but there's a part of me
that wants to kind of rub it inyour face so I can go look, I
saved you.
I can have noxious.
Nobody ever wants that right.
So, being aware of it again,you know, when I have that
(38:31):
feeling I can look at myself andgo why do?
I need to rub this up.
It's because I need to feelgood about myself.
Let me give myself a reflection.
I did a good job there, right?
The work I did, that was great.
I don't need this personnecessarily to give me feedback.
I can give it all on itself.
Now I do.
I am a human being and you knowI've been in situations where my
(38:54):
cookie jar was empty and now,knowing that I can go and fill
it in different ways, my coachhas me keep a sheet of all the
times that people appreciate meor acknowledge me or say good
things about me.
So if I feel like, oh, my cookiejar is empty, I go back to that
sheet and I read this sheet andI can see all of these people
that, like Hailey, here's thisgreat thing that you did for me.
(39:17):
Oh, hailey, here's how youimpacted my life.
I was 50 a couple of months agoand my wife organized a big
birthday party for me and at theend of the party she went
around and she asked everybody,like tell me something about Lee
.
And most of the people talkedabout how it impacted their life
, like how I've done somethingfor them that changed their life
(39:38):
.
And that's who I am.
That's the way I walk throughthe world, that's why I do the
work I do now.
But to hear it and get itreflected, I mean it was
difficult for me.
I had to kind of sit there andshut up and just listen, and
this is too much loving.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
One go for me.
The hedgehog is getting alittle bit prickly.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
But yeah, I took that on and now I have that video.
So if I'm again, if I feeloverwhelmed, if I feel my cookie
jar is empty and all I'mgetting is negative feedback, I
can go to that and go oh, here'sthis bunch of people that love
me and support me.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
That is so cool.
I gotta say, one of the thingsthat I really struggle with is
accepting when somebody gives mea compliment and being able to
internalize that as a placementof cookies back into my jar.
And it's really difficultbecause when we hear somebody
(40:35):
give us a compliment, it kind ofrolls off our back real quickly
.
As soon as we get criticizedit's like, oh, I'm gonna hang on
to that one, that's the onethat I wanna hang on to, and we
don't choose to do it that way.
But it is a defense mechanism,right, because when things are
going well or you're doingsomething well, we go.
(40:59):
Okay, it's going well, you'recomplimenting me, but I already
know that these things are goingwell to a degree, right.
But when somebody approachesyou with something you're not
doing well, that's the one thatyou have to latch onto, because
that's the one that could comeback to bite you.
Whatever it is For me if I feellike or not bite you, I mean
(41:23):
I'm gonna stop you there.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
The reason I'm gonna stop you is because you've
demonstrated exactly the humancondition and the problem that
we have.
We're programmed to look forsabertooth tigers.
Yes, that's our being.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Where is the threat?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
coming from?
Where is the threat coming fromand what do I need to do?
And there's four responses thatwe have to threat.
There's flight, right, there'sa threat, I'm gone, I'm out of
here, I'm gonna run away from it.
Okay, I can't run away, I'mgonna stay and fight.
I can't run away, I can't fightthis thing.
So I'm gonna pretend to be dead, I'm gonna freeze or I'm gonna
(42:01):
fall, which is, I'm gonna tryand feed it and I'm gonna try
and stroke it and I'm gonna tryand befriended it so that it
doesn't kill me.
That's our four psychologicalresponses to threats.
The problem as humans now ismost of the things that we
encounter they're not threatsanymore, but we believe they're
threats.
Just road rage is a greatexample of this how angry people
(42:25):
can get when somebody cuts themoff or doesn't let them out of
a junction or something.
And it's pure primal, it's ananimal, instinctual reaction.
So a lot of the work I do isgetting people aware of how they
respond and what their patternis, how they tend to respond and
(42:47):
how they come overcome.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Thanks for tuning into Hatchin' Creativity.
We appreciate your support.
Please don't forget to like andsubscribe and tell all your
friends about the show andremember it's never just about
one thing.
Welcome to Hatching Creativity.
This isn't just anotherbehavioral health podcast.
This is the place where thoughtleaders converge to talk about
real-life challenges,breakthroughs and pivotal aha
moments.
Thanks for tuning in toHatching Creativity.
In today's episode, I'mspeaking with Lee Povey from
Povey Performance.
(00:20):
Now I know Lee from the cyclingworld, where he was the US
Olympic Development Coach and avery well-decorated cyclist
himself.
Now he's a coach of a wholedifferent kind.
His goal is to help executivesand leaders build strategies
about being the most effectivepeople they can be.
Today, we speak about bestpractices around effective
(00:41):
leadership and building asupportive corporate culture by
asking and acting on feedbackfrom your staff.
And if you like what you hear,please like, share, subscribe
and tell all your friends aboutHatching Creativity.
I am really excited for today'sguest, lee Povey.
Lee and I go back quite a bitand have done quite a bit of
(01:02):
bike racing together.
Lee, would you like to do abrief introduction of yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Hey, mike.
Yeah, I'm a performancestrategist, so I now work with
founders and their companies,and the simplest way to describe
it is I help them understandthemselves on a level so that
they can be the most effectiveversions of themselves.
There's a bit of teaching inthat leadership skills,
(01:28):
communication skills, andthere's a lot of kind of
understanding work.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Are you speaking with founders and getting a better
understanding of where theirskills are and where they need
complementary people on theirteam, or tell me a little bit
more about that?
That's fascinating.
I didn't know that's what youwere doing.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, thanks, mike.
It really depends on eachindividual.
The way I look at it, thepeople that I tend to work with
are very smart and usuallystruggle to delegate and also
struggle to trust others.
So they struggle with that, youknow.
They're like I could just dobetter, so what?
(02:07):
I just do it?
Well then, there's a limit tohow much you can get done if you
are doing everything.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
We talk about that all the time because we say how
you only have so many hours inthe day, right, and you never
want to be the smartest personin the room.
So I think that kind of lendsto what you're talking about
maybe building a good teamaround you.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, my clients typically are the smartest
person in the room and that'sokay.
That's why they're the founder,that's why they're the person
creating this business, and theyneed to learn how to work well
with others, and that comes froman understanding of themselves
and what might show up for themwhen they work with others, and
(02:53):
then also from a greaterunderstanding themselves,
understanding how to relate wellto other people, and especially
people that might not do it asfast as they might do it or
might not quite do it to theirpreferred, which is okay.
There's a business guru calledSeth Godin, so if you ever come
across him, he's like he'sreally, really good.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Seth Godin, seth Godin, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Podcasts and he's brilliant.
Yeah, and one of his sayings isgood enough is better than
perfect.
So you know the kind of peopleI work with.
They want everything to beperfect, and sometimes things
just need to be good enough andthen you can move on to the next
.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Sometimes you also learn that it doesn't always
have to be your way right, andwe create things all the time
and you have a vision in yourhead of how you want your
business to look or youroperations to look or your
systems to look.
And then you bring somebody onand they don't see it the same
way you do.
It doesn't mean they're wrong,but being open-minded to the
(03:59):
possibility that somebody couldhave a good idea that could make
your business better is alsoreally important.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So there's that kind of just working with the ego as
well, of it's okay for somebodyelse to be smart too.
And it's okay for you know ifyou say it's okay for somebody
to have a different vision toyou, as long as it fits in the
overall goal of where thecompany is going.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Do you remember the cartoon Voltron?
Did you ever watch that showwhen you were a kid?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I don't think so.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Yeah, so there was a show called Voltron and Voltron
was all of these little robotkind of action heroes and they
all had their own superpowers.
But when the superpowers allcome together into the big giant
robot, right, it creates thisunstoppable force that, no
(04:52):
matter how bad the bad guys areright, they're never going to
overcome this Voltron.
And we've got a teammate, chrisRivera, and Chris started with
us as a contractor softwaredeveloper who is a contractor
and he built himself into ourchief technology officer and
then he built himself in.
Now he's our chief operatingofficer and Chris always talks
(05:15):
about our team as the Voltron,right, and that's kind of what
you want to do.
Where you've got.
The whole is way bigger thanthe sum of all the parts.
What are some of the beststrategies that you could say to
somebody who is starting theirown business or a treatment
(05:37):
center, a healthcare clinic thatcan help them to find the right
people that can help them getwhere they want to go?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, I think instinct is actually for people
that don't know me, I'm veryscience and data driven.
You know, former elite sportscoach, everything was about the
data, analyzing everything andnot but, and we tend to have
(06:08):
pretty good instincts as humanbeings around other human beings
on our relationship to them.
So employ people that make youfeel good, employ people that
you think I'm going to have agood working relationship with
this person.
Then you configure the rest ofit out.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
It also leads to the culture that creates the culture
at your company that you wantto work at.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah, yeah, and that's another important piece
as well.
You know, I see leaders thatalmost suffer in silence working
with people that they don'tnecessarily like or they don't
get on with, and we spend themajority of our time in our work
environment.
Even now, most of the people Iwork with are in a remote or
hybrid situation, but you stillhave a meeting all day, every
(06:52):
day, with these people.
You could, you're actuallyenjoy the work.
So that's the first thing, youknow work with people that you
enjoy working with.
And then just be really honest.
You know, do they have theskill sets?
And if they don't, and it's notworking out make that decision
quickly.
Again, I see people work withpeople for an extended period of
time.
(07:13):
They know are not really goingto work out, but they don't want
the they don't want todifficult conversations, so they
avoid the difficultconversations, so they keep
working around somebody ratherthan either coaching the person
to be better at their job orgoing hey, this isn't working
and that's okay.
We see firing people, lettingpeople go.
(07:33):
Is this really bad thing?
And it's not, because whatyou're doing is you're allowing
them to get to what they shouldbe doing faster, because if it
isn't working with you, thenyou're actually getting in their
wire of what they should bedoing, lee, you just hit on a
few things that I want to justrecall back, because there's
some things that really stoodout.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
The first is an expression my dad used to always
say, which was if you're given100 envelopes and you're told
that one of those envelopes has$100 bill in it, and you open
the first couple envelopes andyou don't have that $100 bill,
what's your reaction?
Do you get disappointed that youdon't have it or do you say I'm
(08:17):
that much closer to the goal?
Right, and that's a really goodway of looking at hiring too.
We've had to let people go fromtime to time, and it's always
hard because genuinely in ourcompany we love the people
people as people but sometimesthe fit isn't right and while
(08:39):
it's really hard to do that, theother point that you had just
made which is really importantis you have to hire slow and
make good decisions on hiring,but you have to let go very
quickly when something becomesnot working or something is not
working as it should.
And we look at a thing at ourcompany.
(09:02):
We call it skill sets versuspersonality, because a skill set
can always be learned, but ifyour personality isn't right,
then it definitely is going toaffect the longevity of the
relationship or the longevity,of how they fit into the culture
.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
And that's tiring, mike, you know we've all been
there working with people, that.
And you don't have to be bestfriends with people, you don't
have to have to share the samehobbies, you don't have to have
the same interests, you don'tneed to be close friends, but
you need to respect their workand like them.
That's important.
Otherwise it's just soemotionally draining to be
(09:45):
working with people.
You know like, oh, do I have toget on a meeting with that
person?
Oh, I don't really want to.
And we've all been there, we'veall been in these situations
where you're working with peopleto think this isn't right for
me, this isn't right for them.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
You know, we had somebody that worked for us for
a little while.
She was here for a few monthsand when I looked at the resume
and I saw that she had veryshort tenure at many companies,
that was a first red flag, right.
And I always I do a lot ofspeaking on human resources and
hiring and always say ifsomebody's averaging three to
(10:20):
six months at a job, you are notgoing to be the one to change
that or break that cycle.
Don't put yourself in thatposition, right?
And I remember she was here andshe kept saying that the whole
company felt like a club and shewas on the outside and at the
same time, her attitude and herpersonality was so negative and
(10:44):
such a dream that it wasn't thatpeople didn't make an attempt
to get to know her.
It was that she was boxingherself out of the culture of
communication and you know,these are again personality
things you recognize.
She was pretty good at what shedid, but nobody could stand
working with her.
So the other thing I was goingto ask you about you mentioned
(11:08):
data driven and you talk aboutdata and we talk about data a
lot in behavioral health care.
We also talk about data a lotbecause we're a software company
and the importance of data.
You had talked a little bitabout building a team.
What kind of data would you belooking at and what should
somebody be tracking or wantingto keep track of to build a good
(11:34):
culture?
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah, I mean there's various tools so you can do
things like 360s for yourleaders.
So a leader might have animpression of themselves and
think, oh, this is how I lead,this is how I work, this is how
I run my company.
And then we do a 360, which isto interview the most important
people in their life, the peoplethat work with them anonymously
(11:58):
, so that they give that reallygood, clear feedback.
And we're skilled at makingsure that we get the right
feedback out people in the rightquestions to ask, so we get a
pretty good look at how thatperson actually shows up in the
work.
And then we can use that withthe leader to say well, here's
how you think you show up,here's how your team is
(12:19):
reflecting you show up.
How do we get from one to theother?
Where do you want to be andwhat needs to change for you to
get to where you'd like to beinstead?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
I love that, so your company, so you do things like
that.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I source that to other companies that specialize
in that work, and then I use thereport with the founder of the
company or with the CEO, or withthe executive team, depending
on who we're doing the 360 with.
So you know, when you'relooking at culture, it's very
clear culture comes to the top.
So how the founder is is howthe rest of the company is going
(12:57):
to be, because they are settingthe tone for the company.
Or how the CEO is, they'resetting the tone for the company
.
So if you're going to changeculture, you've got to start
there first.
You know, I've been incompanies where they're very
about and this happens oftenwhere they're very about looking
after their staff and makingsure the staff take enough time
(13:17):
off and they don't overwork.
And then the founder works 80hours a week and it doesn't
matter what their policy is.
Everybody's looking at thefounder and going well, there's
still in the office, so I shouldprobably still be in the office
, and then the founder goes.
I don't understand it, ladies.
People don't take time off.
I can't get them to rest, theywill burn out, like here's the
(13:39):
mirror.
Let's reflect back how youbehave and then how that sets
the tone for the company andculture.
People make culture morecomplicated than it is.
It's not actually thatcomplicated.
Just be a decent human being.
If your colleague reaches outto you for something, respond to
your colleague.
Have an idea of what you'rethere to do.
(14:01):
So I work with a lot of kind ofnewer tech companies and you
know Google set the store therethat you have to have on site
massage, therapists and playrooms and all of these things.
When we actually look at whathuman beings need, none of that
stuff really matters.
(14:24):
You get paid what you believe isa fair rate for the work you're
doing, so a market comparablecompensation.
You understand your role in theorganization, so you get
feedback from the people thatyou work with.
You get feedback from your teamleaders, your managers, the CEO
, whatever saying.
This is how you fit into ourculture and this is how you are
(14:47):
fitting into the mission and youunderstand what the mission of
the company is and that you'realigned with it.
So if you work in a companythat you don't understand what
the mission is, you don't knowhow you fit into.
It Doesn't really matter howmuch money you get paid.
You're going to eventually feeldisenfranchised, disheartened,
like I don't understand why I'mhere.
(15:08):
And if you don't get feedbackabout it.
So you don't get clear feedbackof am I doing a good job?
Am I not doing a good job?
Where's my areas for growth?
Again, people get reallyunsettled.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Talk about that, the bonus structure staff, the you
know the unlimited pay, time offand things like that.
They sound great and there canbe a place for them.
They're not really what keepspeople in businesses.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I really like what you said about letting people
know if they're doing a good job, and it's really important to
have those benchmarks set aheadof time.
I'm guilty of that at times.
You know, we get busy in ourown day, we get busy in doing
(15:56):
our particular role, and thensomebody's work anniversary
comes around and you go oh crap,we haven't had any kind of
performance review or evaluationor discussion about what
they've been doing versusexpectations, and I think that's
really important, that that's areally good point that you let
(16:19):
people know how are they meeting, how are they working towards
meeting your expectations.
It's huge, and one of thethings that is really helpful in
our software that we do is wehave anonymous employee
satisfaction surveys looking atemployer, the leadership of the
(16:43):
company, the management team,your workplace safety, culture,
all of those things.
But, as you mentioned, it's allabout the data.
If you're conducting surveys andyou know in behavioral health
it's required that you'recollecting surveys from your
staff that if you're collectingthem in a manner that doesn't
(17:04):
allow you to aggregate the dataand actually use it for anything
of importance, then what endsup happening?
Is it actually works againstdoing these surveys, because
anytime you ask somebody to dosomething like a survey or for
their feedback on anything, andif they you don't do anything
with it, they remember thatreally well and then they say,
(17:26):
oh well, they're just wasting mytime.
Conversely, if you take thesesurveys and you look at them
with your management team andyou look at them with an
objective opinion and you lookat them objectively, you can see
(17:48):
a lot of areas that people canimprove.
I know you and I have spoken acouple of times about Ted Lasso
and I love the analogy of hissuggestion box and everybody
just you know, they call, callthem a wanker and everybody just
nobody showed him any respectuntil he took the one suggestion
(18:09):
and did something with it.
And that sounds like exactlywhat you're saying.
I love your concepts on culturetoo.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
People just you know, ultimately we're all little
kids that wanna be loved.
It's really not much morecomplicated than that.
We're walking through the worldtrying to find ways to be seen
and be loved.
So if we come from thatunderstanding you know the
people working with you, for youthey wanna be recognized.
(18:37):
And, as you say, if we go tothem and say, you know how does
your manager show up?
What are the things that youneed to do your job better?
And then we don't do them, well, then they feel unloved because
, as far as they're concerned,they're now being actively
ignored and there's a differencebetween being well.
They just don't know what Ineed to.
Okay, now you're activelyignoring me because I told you
(18:59):
what I need and you're still notdoing that.
So, yeah, I completely agreewith you Don't do a survey if
you're not gonna put, if you'renot gonna put the results of it
into action and at least explain.
You know, I think I runworkshops on communication, so I
run workshops on how to givefeedback and I'm well-classic
(19:19):
given feedback.
And the reason I'm well-classicgiven feedback is because I
used to be absolutely atrociousat given feedback.
I mean, you might have evenseen this, mike, as a sports
coach.
At times I would see somebodydoing something and I'd go up to
them and like, why are youdoing?
it like that.
Why don't you do it like this?
Instead, you're gonna go faster.
Now, my intent was always froma place of love, of like I love
(19:41):
the sport, I love track cycling,I love seeing people be better.
I'm trying to help them.
But my delivery was appallingand the impact would be these
people would feel judged, they'dfeel belittled, they'd feel
slighted, and I couldn'tunderstand it, because I'm like
I have a fairly tough skinaround feedback.
So I'd be like great, tell meall the stuff.
(20:01):
I don't care if you can tell mehow to do it faster.
But I realized I'm a little bitdifferent from most people like
that and actually the way youdeliver the feedback has a huge
impact on how the feedback isbeing received.
The feedback can be basicallythe same feedback, but the words
used to change it completely,and I realized I wasn't asking
for permission and that's a hugebit about giving feedback.
(20:24):
So I teach people now, whenthey're giving feedback, the
first thing is hey, you open tosome feedback on this.
Then the next bit is what'syour experience?
Hey, I saw this.
You know how did it go for you?
What did you think?
That's part of the datagathering.
Okay, right, oh, they know whatthey're not doing well and now
I can target what to do to helpthem.
It changed my world as asporting coach.
(20:46):
But I had to upset a few peopleto get there, to go.
Hang on a second.
I'm not being as effective asI'd like to be.
How do I flip this around tobecome more effective?
And then I started studying howto give feedback and learning
more about human beings andstudying what high performance
really meant.
And it's all partnerships.
Like you know, work culture ispartnerships.
(21:08):
Just telling people what to dodoesn't make people feel very
valued, so the more autonomy youcan give them while they
understand how they fit into theoverall mission is incredibly
powerful, and that's what we'realways trying to do is empower
your staff to be leaders forthemselves and for their own
(21:28):
departments and in the company.
You know I'm a basketball fan,so it's.
You know I moved to America,you know, 10 years ago.
I've got to pick some Americansport to be able to talk to
people about.
I tried football.
It takes four or enough hours.
I haven't got the patience forthat.
I'm a sprinter like that.
I can't do that.
But baseball takes even longer.
I watched Icehockey.
(21:50):
I couldn't follow the park I'mlike I can't see what's going on
.
So okay, basketball I can getit.
They're athletes.
They sprint really fast.
There's a skill element to it.
I could understand it and Ilived in the Bay Area, so I
became a warrior fan and for me,I think one of the biggest
parts about the Warriors successapart from having the best
(22:10):
point guard ever in Steph Curryis their team atmosphere and
ethos and everybody's encouragedto be a leader on the floor.
You don't often see Steve Kerberrating his players.
He's very upbeat and he truststhem a lot and he gives them a
lot of trust and then he'llcourse correct as needed, and I
think for me, that is great.
(22:31):
Leadership is trusting thepeople that you're working with,
giving them opportunities whenthey fail.
Teachers are learningopportunity, not a discipline
opportunity Yep.
And obviously people can't dothe job.
As we said earlier about hiring, there's some people that just
are not suited for the role, andif they keep not being able to
do the role, that's one thing.
Most of us just need training,we just need support.
(22:53):
It's like oh, what did youlearn from that?
Okay, how are you going to dothat differently next time?
Like, if that go, go and do it,let's see how you get on.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Sure.
Well, you know, my dad alwayshad an expression and I've been
using this since I was a kid andhe says tacked is the ability
to make a point without makingan enemy and having an
understanding of the experienceof somebody else.
Right, we talk about trauma allthe time and one of the side
(23:26):
effects of trauma is a traumaresponse.
Sometimes people think thatthey're okay with criticism, or
even if it's a constructivecriticism, but when they get
criticized, the word used, thecontext used, the tone of voice
used could really trigger traumaresponses and do the opposite
(23:49):
of what you're looking to do.
You know, even if you'relooking to just hey, you hired
me as a coach to give you goodinformation.
That's exactly what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
I'm not trying to offend you, but you know, being
able to step back and look ateverybody's life experiences and
how they're different can alsobe really important with that
you know, for me, movingcountries made me have to be a
better coach because a culturehere is very different to the
(24:21):
culture in the UK and I justdidn't know that until I moved
here.
People are blunter in the UK,much more direct with their
feedback in the UK than they aretypically in America.
So you know, I went with thatkind of British.
You know, one of my friends wasI hope I can throw in his
podcast one of my friends wouldsay one of the first things I
(24:42):
said to her is well the fuck,you're doing it like that, mate.
This American guy is looking atme like that.
Why it's just a differentculture, you know, same as
Australians are very blunt anddirect as well.
And it made me have to reallystop and think about again.
Coming back to that word ofbeing effective, how can I be
(25:03):
effective?
Because the way I've done itbefore, that worked before in a
different culture, is no longerworking here.
So I've got to change.
And I can say, well, I'mBritish, that's the way I behave
.
Or I can say I need to changeand adapt to be more effective.
And you know, one nugget fromme about leadership is I
(25:24):
strongly believe the bestleaders are the most adaptable
leaders.
When I hear somebody talk abouttheir leadership style, I
immediately know they're goingto have limitations in their
leadership, because if they havea leadership style, that means
that they can only work withpeople that work with that
leadership style and I believeyou've got to adapt yourself to
(25:46):
meet everybody where they're attheir level of education, their
level of understanding aboutwhat you're doing, their
communication level.
And another G I like to use alot about feedback is a cookie
jar, and I used to use thisabout track sprint, cycling,
right.
So you know, michael, know thisis sprint athletes you have so
much energy in your system thatyou can use in an effort and
(26:08):
once it's gone you need time torecover and replenish the cookie
jar.
Well, feedback is the same.
When somebody gives youcritical or opportunity feedback
, it has a hit.
And when somebody gives youappreciation, acknowledgement
and compliments, that's puttingcookies into the jar.
(26:30):
And then when somebody givesyou that, hey, here's something
I think you missed that's takensome cookies out of the jar,
what I see a lot is empty cookiejars and when you get to that
point, the person can no longerreceive any kind of critical
feedback.
And I'll often see this whenI'm working in relationships and
companies.
A manager will say I can'ttrain this person anymore.
(26:54):
Whatever I say, they argue withme, they get defensive.
The first thing I say to them ishow often do you praise them?
How often do you point out whatthey do well, and they'll kind
of look at me blankly like whatdo you mean?
Like how much time do you spendacknowledging them as a human
being?
And usually it's very little tonone.
(27:14):
And it's not because they'rebad people, it's because they
believe their job is to tell youwhat you're not doing well
Right.
If you don't also tell peoplewhat they're doing well.
Going back to what makessomebody feel good in a company,
they don't know how they'repart of the mission, they don't
know what is they're doing right.
And we've got to point out whatthey're doing right.
(27:34):
And the best leaders do that ona round of 50-50 scale.
So it's 50%.
Here's all the stuff you'redoing well, 50% opportunities
and not in the old sandwich oneof like here's a compliment.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Not the shit sandwich , not the shit sandwich.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Here's a compliment.
Here's the thing that I needyou to do better.
Or here's another complimentfor the icing on the top.
We actually find it's better ifyou just stick to the
individual things at a time.
You see somebody doingsomething well, point that out.
You see some opportunity, pointthat out.
Don't think you need to play agame with them, just be
(28:09):
mountaining your own self.
Am I giving this person enoughpraise?
And almost nobody, even thebest leaders, really struggle to
do that.
Given enough price.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
There's a couple of things that you hit on here
that's, in my opinion, reallyimportant.
We have a similar type of aconversation with our
13-year-old daughter and werefer to it as our emotional
bank account, and you've got tomake deposits before you can
take out of that bank account,right?
And if all you're doing istaking and taking and if every
(28:45):
conversation is a pull fromsomebody's emotional bank
account, sooner or later thatperson's going to lower that
entrance into it and you're notgoing to be able to get in and
you're going to have a wall whenyou're trying to relate to
somebody.
So it is really important.
I like the cookie jar aspect aswell.
(29:06):
You know we have to give ifwe're going to take.
The other thing that I think isreally important that you
mentioned, lee, is authenticity.
You know you didn't use theword, but what I'm hearing you
say is having an authenticrelationship, that feedback is
(29:28):
given.
So authentic feedback is goodand it's corrective at the same
time.
It's almost like the.
Oftentimes managers feel likethey have to play this role and
anytime we try to fit into arole or a construct, that's when
(29:50):
we're not authentic.
Right, we're trying to do thismanager role or this parent role
.
I always found it's much easierto just talk on the authentic
level about what I'm thinking,what I'm experiencing.
What are you thinking andexperiencing, rather than trying
to put boss and employee roleor any of that Speaking of.
(30:15):
Have you ever read the bookFlat Army?
Are you familiar with it?
Flat Army, they talk a lotabout this and it's really
talking about hierarchy, andoftentimes when you have a
hierarchy in a company, it's I'mabove you or you're below me,
and the Flat Army really talksabout a hierarchy that doesn't
(30:40):
involve that and it involves anoverall team rowing in the same
direction for the same goal,which is exactly what you were
talking about about everybodybeing understanding of where
they fit in their contributionto the overall mission.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot that I could
respond to there and I didn'trespond to earlier, but I just
want to say that sounds like alovely guy.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
He is, he's, he's my best dude, he absolutely what a
bunch of pearls of wisdom there.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
I can understand how you're the man you are.
I Just go back to you knowwe're little kids that need to
be seen and loved and you knowsome of the work I do,
especially with leadership teams, is we actually we do what we
call essence and survivalmechanism work.
So the essence is what are thegenetic personality traits you
(31:33):
were born with?
So my mum fostered a hundredkids over a 10-year period Maybe
high-risk kids, so reasonablyshort stay and I helped her with
some of that and I watched someof that happen and I learned a
lot about human behavior just onthat period.
I was in my late teens andearly 20s when it was happening.
And then, as I study and learnmore now it's this mix of nature
(31:57):
versus nurture.
Well, some of it is.
We are born with certain genetictraits.
Any parent will tell youthey've got more than one child
and children are different andthey just have different genetic
traits, right?
Some are really outgoing, someare more introverted, some are
very curious, some aren't verycurious.
And Then we enter the world.
(32:19):
We enter off our familial youknow situations.
We're growing up, we getfeedback and we get feedback on
those genetic personality traits, and then we adapt because we
want to fit in right.
So we've got to adapt to ourfamily system, we got that to
our school system, our cultureof our countries, the culture of
where we grew up.
(32:40):
So we adapt and then we put onwhat we call some vital
mechanisms, and these areshields to protect us From the
way the world is viewing usabout how we are as a person.
So as a kid I was incrediblycurious.
Well, I often got told to shutup because I'm asking so many
questions.
People are like enough.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Okay, kid, shut up.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
And.
I get it but then you build ashield around that right to
protect myself from being toldto shut up, because little kids
Don't like being told to shut up.
I just want to be loved andheard.
So some of the work I do withleadership teams is we actually
establish these Essences andsurvival mechanisms and they
know each other survivalmechanisms.
So then they start to look outfor it and own as well when
(33:25):
they're showing up as it andthey're like, oh, I'm showing up
like this.
So you know my essence is ourbrilliance, playing, vision,
connection and presence.
I'm very aware of what's goingon.
I'm very strategic mind to seepatterns and what's going on.
I'm, if I'm with you and verypresent, you're gonna know I'm
in the room, I have a presence.
You know me.
I'm reasonably big physicallyand you'll know I'm there.
(33:48):
But I'm also very good at beingwith people and listen to them
and seeing them very deeply,which is why I can do the work I
do when my survival mechanismsone is tyrannical Einstein.
You know, I didn't have thebenefit of a very good father.
My father was about as bad asthe father can come.
So to protect myself I justused my smartness.
(34:11):
So I was smarter than him and Iwould use that to protect
myself from him and the damagethat he could do.
Well, that doesn't work so wellas an adult, right?
You know, nobody wants to bearound a tyrant and I have very
high standards and that wouldcome out in tyrannical ways.
Why haven't you done this?
Why isn't it done the way Iwant it done?
Why haven't you done this and I, until I gained understanding
(34:34):
around it?
It would affect myrelationships.
So people would see this reallysweet kind of loving part men
and be like why are you showingup like this?
If I know that in a leadershipteam, I can share that with the
other leaders in the team andsay, hey guys, if I start to get
really stressed, you might seesome of this behavior, I'm okay
with you calling out a reminderand then what I do is for me, if
(34:58):
I start to feel myself becominga tyrant, I lean back into my
essence of play.
It's very hard to be a playfultyrant, so I, you know I'll take
the piss off myself and I'lllaugh at myself, or I'll go go
kind or I'll.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
You know, I'll do something competitive With a
play element to it thatexercises that part of me so
that I don't bring that so muchinto the workplace Do you have
any ideas or thoughts on how youcan recognize your own patterns
of defense there for people whomay not really know where their
(35:35):
own patterns are hidden,Because it's hide right.
It's not something that we'renot supposed to be aware of.
This right, this is yoursubconscious coming out.
How would you recommendsomebody find out or realize
what their defenses are?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
The only way I've seen it done, or I've been able
to do it, is to have therapy orcoaching.
You've got to have that outsidereflection and perspective.
It's you know, you named itvery accurately it's the shadow
self, as Carl Jung woulddescribe it.
So it's these parts ofourselves that we know exist and
(36:18):
we, you know you're in arelationship with somebody.
You think I just felt ickyright now.
Why do I feel icky?
What's this about?
So you know it's there, butit's very hard for us to look at
.
And also we usually have a lotof negative judgment of this
part of myself.
You know, when my coaches said,right, we're going to call this
part of you tyrannical,einstein, I'm like I don't want
to be a tyrant, like, fuck you,I don't think of myself as a
(36:40):
tyrant.
And then they're like, well,reflect on this behavior.
I'm like, oh God, yeah, I'm atyrant.
So you know, I think it's veryhard to do with outside
reflection.
That's why people pay me a lotof money to come in, because the
work is incredibly powerful andonce you see it, then you can't
go back.
You know, once we, once we givepeople these names, it's
(37:02):
impossible to go back from it,unless you're a sociopath and
you just don't have any empathy.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
But you know, for us as normal human beings.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
You can't come back from that and it changes the
world, the way that you see theworld.
Your experience of the world isjust different.
And then you know my wife willreflect to me when I'm behaving
like that and I've nowestablished two more survival
mechanisms.
So one is heartbroken headshock.
So people had often describedme as a bit prickly to begin
(37:30):
with, but then once I get to 90,unlike this big teddy bear and
I remember when I did theOlympic development program, the
athletes were so scared of meto begin with.
I'm like one of the othercoaches, like lead, they're
really scared of you and I'mlike I don't understand why.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
I'm like I'm gonna do anything to really lovely.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
But I have a certain presence and some of that is to
protect myself from being hurtright, because I'm quite soft.
So to protect myself.
There's a bit of a shield andthat's that hedgehog part of it.
And then one of the young girlson the program, like a few
months in or whatever said ohI've got it, you're just a big,
soft teddy bear, like, I'm notscared of you anymore.
So it's knowing that we havethese things and I've known for
(38:10):
me as a obnoxious hero.
So I love to be the hero.
You know, I want to be at us tohelp you.
I don't want to be able to saveyou, but there's a part of me
that wants to kind of rub it inyour face so I can go look, I
saved you.
I can have noxious.
Nobody ever wants that right.
So, being aware of it again,you know, when I have that
(38:31):
feeling I can look at myself andgo why do?
I need to rub this up.
It's because I need to feelgood about myself.
Let me give myself a reflection.
I did a good job there, right?
The work I did, that was great.
I don't need this personnecessarily to give me feedback.
I can give it all on itself.
Now I do.
I am a human being and you knowI've been in situations where my
(38:54):
cookie jar was empty and now,knowing that I can go and fill
it in different ways, my coachhas me keep a sheet of all the
times that people appreciate meor acknowledge me or say good
things about me.
So if I feel like, oh, my cookiejar is empty, I go back to that
sheet and I read this sheet andI can see all of these people
that, like Hailey, here's thisgreat thing that you did for me.
(39:17):
Oh, hailey, here's how youimpacted my life.
I was 50 a couple of months agoand my wife organized a big
birthday party for me and at theend of the party she went
around and she asked everybody,like tell me something about Lee
.
And most of the people talkedabout how it impacted their life
, like how I've done somethingfor them that changed their life
(39:38):
.
And that's who I am.
That's the way I walk throughthe world, that's why I do the
work I do now.
But to hear it and get itreflected, I mean it was
difficult for me.
I had to kind of sit there andshut up and just listen, and
this is too much loving.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
One go for me.
The hedgehog is getting alittle bit prickly.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
But yeah, I took that on and now I have that video.
So if I'm again, if I feeloverwhelmed, if I feel my cookie
jar is empty and all I'mgetting is negative feedback, I
can go to that and go oh, here'sthis bunch of people that love
me and support me.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
That is so cool.
I gotta say, one of the thingsthat I really struggle with is
accepting when somebody gives mea compliment and being able to
internalize that as a placementof cookies back into my jar.
And it's really difficultbecause when we hear somebody
(40:35):
give us a compliment, it kind ofrolls off our back real quickly
.
As soon as we get criticizedit's like, oh, I'm gonna hang on
to that one, that's the onethat I wanna hang on to, and we
don't choose to do it that way.
But it is a defense mechanism,right, because when things are
going well or you're doingsomething well, we go.
(40:59):
Okay, it's going well, you'recomplimenting me, but I already
know that these things are goingwell to a degree, right.
But when somebody approachesyou with something you're not
doing well, that's the one thatyou have to latch onto, because
that's the one that could comeback to bite you.
Whatever it is For me if I feellike or not bite you, I mean
(41:23):
I'm gonna stop you there.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
The reason I'm gonna stop you is because you've
demonstrated exactly the humancondition and the problem that
we have.
We're programmed to look forsabertooth tigers.
Yes, that's our being.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Where is the threat?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
coming from?
Where is the threat coming fromand what do I need to do?
And there's four responses thatwe have to threat.
There's flight, right, there'sa threat, I'm gone, I'm out of
here, I'm gonna run away from it.
Okay, I can't run away, I'mgonna stay and fight.
I can't run away, I can't fightthis thing.
So I'm gonna pretend to be dead, I'm gonna freeze or I'm gonna
(42:01):
fall, which is, I'm gonna tryand feed it and I'm gonna try
and stroke it and I'm gonna tryand befriended it so that it
doesn't kill me.
That's our four psychologicalresponses to threats.
The problem as humans now ismost of the things that we
encounter they're not threatsanymore, but we believe they're
threats.
Just road rage is a greatexample of this how angry people
(42:25):
can get when somebody cuts themoff or doesn't let them out of
a junction or something.
And it's pure primal, it's ananimal, instinctual reaction.
So a lot of the work I do isgetting people aware of how they
respond and what their patternis, how they tend to respond and
(42:47):
how they come overcome.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Thanks for tuning into Hatchin' Creativity.
We appreciate your support.
Please don't forget to like andsubscribe and tell all your
friends about the show andremember it's never just about
one thing.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!