October 29, 2025 • 47 mins
A black flame candle, a July release, and a bedtime story that almost stayed too dark for Disney—this conversation unpacks how Hocus Pocus stumbled into theaters and soared into cult legend. We dig into the real craft behind the charm: practical sets built from the ground up, wire-flying and boom-arm “swoops,” eight-inch broom puppets for long shots, and a wall of trained cats to bring Thackeray Binks to life. With Bette Midler at full power, Sarah Jessica Parker haunting melodies, and Kathy Najimy’s offbeat warmth, the film dances between spooky and silly without losing heart.
We trace the path from the original, darker Halloween House concept to the studio’s family-friendly pivot, and why that mix of menace and musical theater still works. Doug Jones’s Billy Butcherson steals a segment as we break down his physical performance and the infamous live-moth gag, a grimy flourish that sells the bit in a single exhale. There’s rich trivia throughout: a near-cut of I Put a Spell on You that became the movie’s signature, Leonardo DiCaprio passing on Max for What’s Eating Gilbert Grape, and the broom “driving styles” inspired by how the actors actually drove. We also hit the Salem filming spots, the city hall choreography, the Gypsy nod, and the Gary and Penny Marshall cameo that doubles as a Hollywood time capsule.
By the end, we’re weighing first-watch ratings against the rewatch glow that turns a six into an eight once the details click. We talk legacy too—how Hocus Pocus fuels Disney’s Halloween stage shows and why its practical effects give it a timeless sheen next to early-90s CGI. If you love behind-the-scenes filmmaking, cult classics, Salem lore, and the alchemy of tone, this one’s a treat. Tap play, then tell us your favorite scene, your Sanderson alter ego, and whether you’d ever risk lighting the black flame candle. If you’re enjoying the show, follow, share with a friend, and drop a quick review to help more listeners find us.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angela (00:01):
By moon's bright glow and candles light, we twist this
show from day to night.
The black flame burns, the micstands tall, where movie magic
beckons all.
A tale unseen, a spell begun,for Joe's first watch has just
begun.
And Dylan, keeper of the lore,has walked to these reels and
(00:25):
knows the score.
By Salem's charm and laughter'scall, we twist this show till
credits fall.
So sip your brew and take yourseat.
Dylan (01:39):
Hocus Pocus is rated PG but includes some mature
references.
Teenager Max moves to Salem,lights the Black Flame candle,
and resurrects three 17thcentury witch sisters, Winifred,
Mary, and Sarah.
The help from his sister Danny,classmate Allison, and the
cursed cat, Thackeray Binks, hemust stop them from draining
(02:00):
children's life forces beforesunrise.
Released July 1993, not onHalloween, directed by
choreographer-turned filmmakerKenny Ortega, starring Bet
Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker,Kathy Najemy, Omri Katz, Thora
Birch, and Vanessa Shaw.
(02:22):
The movie began as HalloweenHouse, a darker script conceived
by screenwriter Mick Garris andproducer David Kirschhner.
Kirchner originally told it asa bedtime story for his
daughters, then pitched it toDisney by inviting executives
into a dark room filled withbrooms, a vacuum, and 15 pounds
of candy corn.
Joe (02:43):
I bet the scary part for some people was the candy corn.
They're like brooms we canhandle.
Dylan (02:50):
Man, like it would have smelled so sweet.
Yeah.
Like it would have it wouldhave smelled like Halloween
night.
Yeah.
So did you have anything thatreally surprised you about the
movie?
Joe (03:04):
Yeah, I didn't expect Jason Martin.
Yeah.
Um you know, I didn't know,obviously, I didn't know what it
was about, and all I kind ofgot was that it was about these
witches, and uh I had no idea.
Dylan (03:21):
I just really uh Right, because it's super easy to be
like, oh yeah, there's witches,they go wreak havoc and they die
at some s sunrise, yeah.
Whatever.
Joe (03:32):
The typical right.
Dylan (03:34):
Yeah, because that's definitely kind of more a cookie
cutter interpretation of likewitches in general.
Joe (03:42):
It was originally a Disney movie, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
It's hard to tell these daysbecause Disney just bought
everything, so it's likeoffright it becomes a Disney
movie whether you wanted it toor not, you know.
Dylan (03:56):
Right.
Um, so actually when they werefirst pitching this movie, they
were not into it at all.
Um, because the original moviethat was pitched was actually um
a lot darker and followed umthe sisters, the witches, a like
a lot more than the kids.
(04:17):
And so um they when they werelike going through and like
coming up with the ideas for themovie and stuff, like it got
shot shot down a lot because ofit being too scary and being a
Disney movie, yeah.
And um, you know, they wantedtheir movies more aimed towards
(04:40):
families and stuff, and so umeven like the movie that was
shot initially was a lot darker,featuring the witches a lot
more, and it actually got gotcut and rearranged in the
cutting room.
Joe (04:58):
Oh to so it didn't seem as dark, right?
Or yeah.
Huh.
Dylan (05:03):
Um so yeah, it it initially was a flop because it
started or it released in Julyand not in in Halloween season
in October.
Joe (05:20):
Yeah.
Dylan (05:20):
Kind of crazy.
Joe (05:21):
Yeah, it it's a pretty interesting time to release a
movie like that.
Right.
Yeah.
Dylan (05:28):
The whole movie features, you know, Halloween night and
all Halloween's eve, and youknow, and you're like, yeah,
let's we just celebrate theFourth of July, let's go watch
this movie.
Joe (05:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Let's celebrate Halloween.
Right.
Dylan (05:42):
So yeah, it wasn't really uh a big hit until until it um
on home video.
Yeah, right.
Thank you.
Joe (05:55):
Which is probably VHS at the time.
Dylan (05:59):
What is that?
Joe (06:01):
Um it's for a whole different podcast.
Maybe just an episode.
We'll do a episode on media,physical media, and the
evolution.
The the evolution of physicalmedia from beta to 4K.
Dylan (06:20):
Um what did you think about the the music scene kind
of in the middle of it?
Joe (06:27):
It was cool.
Yeah.
Um you know, uh I know enoughabout the actresses that uh I'm
old school, so I'm sayingactresses.
I don't know if that's I don'tknow what else you'd call them,
but you did great.
Um you know, not to jump intonecessarily jump deep into
(06:51):
people, but if you're gonna havea movie with with Bette Midler
in it, uh you gotta take theopportunity for her to sing.
Right.
You know, right like how manymovies can you think of that
she's you know that she's sungon and and yeah acted, and she's
just one of those uh actressesthat that has the um just has
(07:17):
all the element you know of astar.
Dylan (07:19):
She's and the the vocal range.
Man, she she does amazing.
Yeah.
Um so another one of the moviesthat Bette Midler um starred in
is Gypsy.
And so Hocus Pocus actuallygives a nod to Gypsy when
Winifred gets up on stage andshe says, My name's Winnie,
(07:42):
what's yours?
Uh-huh.
That's a nod to Gypsy becausewhen Gypsy gets first on stage,
that's what she says.
My name's Gypsy, what's yours?
Oh yeah, nice.
But yeah, Bet Midler, like sheloves the film and um would say
that it's what helped startedthe kind of the Halloween movie
(08:02):
move.
Yeah.
Joe (08:03):
Yeah.
Huh.
Dylan (08:04):
So yeah, that's Winifred.
And then you also have Sarah,so she's the flirty sister.
Joe (08:11):
Um which kind of threw me off because her name is Sarah.
I was like, oh, I'm gonnaremember this.
I better remember thischaracter's name, anybody's name
I remember.
Dylan (08:25):
Right.
And it's so funny.
I didn't notice one of thescenes in the dance hall when he
like or Wither Fred like pullsher away from from kissing one
of the boys there.
That was funny.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, um Sarah Jac SarahJessica Parker um is actually
(08:46):
distantly related to uh EstherElwell, which is an accused
Salem era witch.
Joe (08:53):
Oh so she probably embraced the rule.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, she's been been on somany things.
Um and you know, I've seen Igrew up seeing her on multiple
things, you know, yeah TV showsand whatnot.
So yeah, she's she's great.
Dylan (09:15):
So then the last sister is Mary, so she's the smell
tracking sister.
We kept referring to her as thedog.
Yeah.
Yeah, but so Rosie O'Donnell umactually declined that role um
because she didn't want to playa fat mean witch and be cruel to
children.
Um you also have Max, which Ibelieved that.
Joe (09:42):
Are you okay?
She just plays one in reallife.
Sorry, sorry, Rosie.
That's delicate cut, but I justhad to say it.
Dylan (10:04):
I'll leave it in.
Okay.
So yeah, um Amri Katz playedMax, and uh, if I remember
correctly, this is actually oneof the first movies that he's
been in.
Um Thora Birch is Danny andVanessa Shaw as Allison.
(10:28):
Um Sean Murray uh plays thehuman Thackeray Binks, and Jason
Marsden is actually the voiceof Thackeray Binks.
Joe (10:39):
Yeah.
Um my wife and I were just likeI I just said NCIS.
Because I couldn't I couldn'teven think of you know his
character's name.
And uh but in in NCIS, but itwas like it's like oh that's
him, you know, and yeah, andthen you said Jason Marston.
I'm like, oh well he's EddieMonster from the New Monsters,
(11:01):
and and that that's all I canremember him from.
Yeah.
Um I mean not that to me that'sto me that was his role, and I
know like he was in the goofymovie, right?
He's done all kinds of other,you know, other roles, but to
me, like um it's kind of likemost people know Sylvester
Stallone from Rocky, right?
You know, Jason Martin to mewas Eddie Munster, you know.
Dylan (11:25):
But yeah, um the reason that they had Jason Marsden do
the voice of it is that theydidn't think that Murray had a
uh they thought that his voicewas too modern to play a
300-year-old cat.
Joe (11:42):
Oh so was it was it um was he doing uh English accent but
it sounded too modern, or was ituh an American accent and it's
sounded too?
Dylan (11:54):
Yeah, it was it was an English accent and they thought
it was just too modern.
Yeah.
Like, you know, your vocalinflections.
Right, you know, you can't, youknow, stuff that you can't
really help, just the way youtalk.
Yeah.
And so um Leonardo DiCaprio wasinitially offered the role to
(12:15):
play Max.
Oh would have been a such adifferent movie, wouldn't it?
Yeah, um, the reason he turnedit down, and they actually
offered him a lot of money to doit, yeah.
But um, he was actually alreadyum in production of What's
Eating Gilbert Grape.
Joe (12:32):
Okay.
Dylan (12:33):
So yeah, yeah.
So yeah.
Um, but yeah, I don't know howthat how the movie would have
been with with DiCaprio.
Joe (12:43):
I don't know, it just Yeah, it's hard to say.
Like I'm trying to think of sothis was in '93.
Um Gilbert Grape.
Because it was before a lot ofstuff.
So he like I think the biggestthing he had done was growing
(13:04):
pains from that point.
Yeah.
Dylan (13:05):
And then Gilbert Grape was what like kind of threw him
out into you know, so it's likeYeah, because I I thought
Gilbert Grape was what kind ofrocketed him.
Joe (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, just looking at at his roles and how how they
kind of went up, and he was not,you know, Leonardo DiCaprio.
Right.
So yeah, it just would havebeen different.
And who knows if this wouldhave made him, you know, in a
different way.
Dylan (13:33):
Right, right.
It could have changed the wholetrajectory of his career.
Yeah.
Um, so Billy Butcherson, soplayed by Doug Jones, um, is the
zombie and ex-boyfriend um whouh coughed up real moths.
Oh, really?
Oh yeah, we'll get into that alittle later.
Joe (13:55):
All right, Doug.
Um so yeah.
Um he's he's been on a lot oflike yeah, so I I know Doug
Jones from a lot of differentmovies.
Um, kind of like Andy Circus.
He's Andy Circus is one ofthose actors who he played
(14:16):
Gollum.
Um he could and he also playedKing Kong.
So he could act with his body,yeah, and act with his emotions.
And um Doug Jones is one ofthose those character actors
that people go to just forthey'll go to him just for his
his the way he can contort hisbody, the way he can um, you
(14:40):
know, just mime things and actwithout speaking.
Um you know, I know him fromHellboy.
Uh he played Ape Ape Sapien inin Hellboy.
So the minute he popped out, Iwas like, that's Doug Jones.
Dylan (14:55):
That's just saw his face, and that's just yeah, I heard
you saying something down thereto your wife, but I couldn't I
couldn't make it out.
Joe (15:03):
Yeah, we're Hellboy fans.
Um the movies, yeah, and we'vewatched them over and over and
just so she knew who Ape Sapienwas.
That's great.
Dylan (15:12):
So So for Kenny Ortega's vision of the movie, um coming
from choreography, um, heblended like broad comedy and
music.
I put a spell on you, um, andlike big elaborate practical
effects.
And I know this is somethingthat I've harped on like every
(15:35):
episode, but I love practicaleffects.
Yeah, it just sells it, itreally does.
Um so like the production umbuilt the Sanderson Cottage and
the graveyard on a soundstage.
Um everything from the movingfloorboards to candles lighting
(15:56):
was done physically rather thanCGI.
Like, could you imagine likestanding up on that on those
floorboards when it starts justrattling underneath you?
Yeah, and it's not like theywere moving a little bit.
I mean, they were moving likeseveral inches.
Joe (16:10):
Yeah, you know, and in '93, uh you know, CG's still in its
infancy.
Um and I noted that it wasRhythm and Hughes that did the
production on thepost-production on that.
But yeah, still in its infancy,still, you know, people got
(16:30):
kind of like would use them alot, but it it was yeah, it I I
like the way they pulled it offhere.
It wasn't I I feel like yeah,it wasn't cheesy or anything.
Dylan (16:42):
Yeah.
So then also the um thecemetery finale scene was also
staged on a giant set, and sothey had um green green lighting
and fog all around too to giveit that color pop.
Joe (16:59):
Nice.
Dylan (17:00):
Um for the flying witches, um the actresses were
rigged to wires and pulled bycrew.
Um so Sarah Sarah JessicaParker, she loved flying.
Um, she sometimes um likesometimes the rig would fail and
(17:21):
she would get like stuckmid-air.
And so um often she would havea like a New York Times in the
back of her corset.
Yeah, and so she would pull itout and just start reading it
while just dangling midair untilthey got her out.
Yeah.
Joe (17:40):
I love uh later on when um um I'm trying to remember the
character's name, oh, Mary, uhswitches to a vacuum.
Yeah.
Dylan (17:56):
Um for the for the flying scenes too, when um so they
like for the big wide shots,they were in the wire harness.
And then for the tight close-upshots, um oh, I don't remember
what it's called now, but it waslike a big um like a big boom
(18:16):
arm that they were on, and sothey had the camera on one end
of it to where it couldn't seeany of the boom arm, but
everything above it um was justthe actresses and stuff.
Yeah, and so that gave themlike they still could rotate
like the end of the boom arm andeach piece individually, so
(18:36):
they still had like 360 degreesof motion, whatever they wanted
to film.
And so so yeah, that's how theygot those close-up like
swooping scenes.
And so um for the shots wherethey were like far away
silhouettes or um like I thinkof the moment, like when the
(19:02):
roof of the house explodes andthey go flying out.
Um, so those are still real,they're not CGI.
Um they're there, they werepuppets made by a local company
there.
And so that way when they weredoing kind of the faraway shots
of the sisters flying, they theydidn't need to like you know
(19:25):
use CGI or anything like that toget that long distance shot.
They were just like and thesepuppets are only eight inches
tall or so, like, and they werestrapped to the broom and stuff,
yeah.
And so they had a rod um goinginto the top of the head to like
be able to like turn them, makethem look around, and um they
(19:49):
still had like all the motionthat the actual actresses would
have had on the broom.
Joe (19:57):
So you're saying like they would be the actresses would be
there and then it would turninto puppets?
Dylan (20:04):
Right.
Okay, right.
So like for that scene, they'llhave like the explosion and
then um uh the I don't know ifthey would like composite the
film or or what, but so thenthat would be the shot of the
puppets coming out of it.
Oh yeah, nice for the for allthe cats, all the little Binxes.
(20:29):
Um they to to film the Binx'sscenes, yeah, um, the crew
actually used multiple livecats.
Oh um, so each cat was trainedfor a single trick.
Nice.
And so uh Vanessa Shaw umrecalls a literal wall of cats
(20:51):
behind the set with differentanimals that were prepared to
walk, pounce, sleep, or swipe.
Nice.
So yeah, for each of the kindof the different stuff, they
would just have like a differentcat stand in.
Joe (21:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, one of my favorite uhparts of Universal is is going
to that animal show where youcan see, you know, all the
different animals with all thedifferent tricks and things like
that.
And it's really, you know, thewhole term of of herding cats,
you know, it's it's it's a hardthing to do.
(21:27):
So I gotta give it to all theall the people who worked on the
movie with the cats becausethey're they could be impossible
sometimes.
Dylan (21:36):
Yeah.
Um so going back to Doug Jonesas Billy, yeah, um, he had real
moths and dust in his mouth.
And so they used a dental dammade out of um like a plastic or
a latex, excuse me.
Um it was made out of thelatex, and the moths and dust
(22:01):
were placed by tweezers.
Oh and he had to just hold themin his mouth while filming it.
Yeah.
Um and so he said he would saythat as he was sitting there
waiting for for them to shootthe scene, he could feel the
moths fluttering in his mouth.
Oh, and so uh that just soundshorrible.
(22:24):
It does.
So um, so on the original scenethat they filmed of that, they
had a light break.
Oh, and so dur like during thetake, and so then they had to
like reset and reshoot thatscene.
So not only did he have to doit the first time, but then they
(22:45):
had to redo it because of that.
Joe (22:48):
Oh man.
Dylan (22:49):
That's oh but yeah, I mean, it definitely sells that
shot though when he when he cutsopen the stitches holding his
mouth closed, and you see thethe puff of dust in the moths.
Yeah.
Joe (23:02):
Like it is definitely a surprise.
Yeah.
Jennifer (23:11):
Feeling tired, wrinkled, perhaps a bit too
mortal.
Fear not, Dearies.
The Sanderson Sisters YouthSerum is back for another
enchanting season.
Brewed fresh in Salem with ourpatented blend of moonlight,
mystery, and um one or twosecret ingredients we can't
(23:32):
legally mention.
One sip, and you'll feelcenturies younger.
Side effects may includespontaneous keggling or turning
your vacuum into a personaltransport device.
unknown (23:46):
Shh.
Jennifer (23:47):
And remember, it's all just a bunch of focus.
Available now wherever magicalpotions are questionably sold.
And please, for your ownsafety, don't light the black
flame candle.
Foolish mortals.
Dylan (24:17):
Did you have a specific like favorite scene you can
think of out of the whole wholemovie?
Joe (24:25):
Other than any time they showed Binks because he looks
like my cat.
Let me think.
Dylan (24:36):
Okay, so um I think one of my favorites is probably when
Max lights the black flamecandle and then the the shack
around them like starts to likewake up.
Joe (24:54):
Oh, okay.
Dylan (24:55):
Like I love seeing like all just all the practical
effects.
Yeah.
Um another good one is when thewitches sing I put a spell on
you at the town hall.
Um and they're like you can seethere the choreography of them
(25:17):
dancing, and you can they umshow like shots of like
middler's like shoes and stuff.
Yeah.
And so the striped socks thatshe wears is actually inspired
by the wicked witches socks fromWizard of Oz.
Joe (25:33):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Yeah, and I I feel like in thatin that choreography and
everything, it still carries thecharacter's personality
through.
Yeah.
Um, I think off the top of myhead, just a quirky um scene for
(25:54):
me was when they're trying toget the cops help.
Oh, yeah.
And he's so nonchalant aboutit, like because it's the first
time, I'm thinking, oh, was doesthis happen all the time and he
just doesn't care?
Right.
You know, like oh, they got outagain, you know, or you know,
(26:14):
somebody lit the candle again.
Right.
Dylan (26:16):
I mean, because like with all of that being there, like
that has to happen.
Like, you know, prank callslike that would have to happen
like every Halloween.
Yeah.
They're like, oh, we lit theblack flame candle.
Joe (26:31):
Right.
Dylan (26:34):
Yeah, and then and then the the girl walks out and gets
onto the bike behind him, andthey're laughing that he's not a
real cop.
Yeah.
Another one that like reallystands out to me is during the
the final cemetery showdown withthe with the salt, when Alison
(26:56):
like shakes the salt into herhand and throws it up.
Yeah.
And and Sarah is like swoopingtowards her, hits the salt, and
does a complete backflip.
Joe (27:06):
Oh, yeah.
Dylan (27:07):
Um to do that, she had to like throw her body backwards
to get it to roll like that.
Nice.
Joe (27:14):
And yeah, I kind of picked up that when um what's the
character's name?
But was it Vanessa, theactress?
Dylan (27:22):
Vanessa Shaw.
Yeah.
Joe (27:23):
Yeah.
Um, at the like she runs out ofsalt, but she has a little bit
and she throws it behind herback.
Did you notice that?
Yeah, so it was like good luck.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the the um, you know,the master and and uh, you know,
(27:46):
Medusa.
Yeah.
Um that was for me was one ofthose odd, odd kind of throw-in
things, just because like Idon't know if you know um Gary
and Penny Marshall, but GaryMarshall produced tons of TV
shows.
Dylan (28:04):
Yeah.
Joe (28:05):
And Penny Marshall uh was on Laverne and Shirley, and she
went on to I think she directedBig and a lot of other uh huge
films, yeah.
And she went from TV actress tohuge film director, and so like
they're like Hollywood royalty,and like so to have this like
(28:25):
little part in there, it was itwas hilarious just to see them
together, yeah.
Dylan (28:29):
And it's so funny too that like in the movie they play
a couple, they play husband andwife, right?
But in real life, they'resiblings, yeah.
Uh-huh.
Like, yeah, so apparently likethe original scripting for that
had a kiss scene in there forthose characters.
And so then when they found outthat it was going to be um that
(28:51):
it was going to be siblings,they're like, Yeah, we can't
have that.
Yeah, yeah, I can't do that.
So did you notice how um eachof the witches riding her
broomstick actually reflects hercharacter?
Joe (29:06):
Was it the way they rode them or was it their broomstick?
Dylan (29:09):
So it's the way that they rode them.
Oh, okay.
Okay, so Winnie is like she wasvery vigorous with her flying.
She's very on the nose.
While like Mary is veryguarded, and Sarah is just all
out crazy and throws caution tothe wind with it.
Yeah.
Um, so the way that theyactually decided to have them
(29:33):
fly like the way that they do,is that um one of the one of the
producers um actually did aride along with each of the
actresses to see how they drive.
So the way that they fly theirbrooms is how they drove in real
life.
Joe (29:53):
That's cool.
Dylan (29:55):
Yeah.
Joe (29:56):
That's an extra um.
Extra time put in to kind ofget you know get the characters
down.
Dylan (30:06):
Right.
I mean, and it's care like thatthat goes into the filming and
you know, planning thecharacters and stuff.
That's what sells it.
Joe (30:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dylan (30:20):
Um so yeah, parts of the movie was filmed in Salem.
So like the original um, youknow, 300 years ago like the
opening scene.
Joe (30:32):
Uh-huh.
Dylan (30:32):
Um that that is um like the original Salem that they
filmed in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and then the big, the bighouse that Allison lives in that
the the um what would you callit?
Like the old you know, curlyhaired wigs.
(30:53):
Uh-huh.
Um, but so all the peopledressed up in like Victorian
era.
Oh, yeah.
Uh-huh.
That's what it's called.
Yeah.
Um, all the people dressed upin Victorian era, that that big
white house that they stand inlooking all, that's in Salem.
Oh.
And so um people would like goto Salem during Halloween to see
(31:14):
that house.
Oh.
Because they wanted it to seeall see it all done up.
And they were very disappointedbecause the whoever had that,
it's part of a museum.
Joe (31:25):
Okay.
Dylan (31:25):
And the museum didn't dress it up for Halloween.
So I guess for one of theanniversaries of the movie, they
redid the front of the houseexactly like it was in the
movie.
Oh, cool.
So yeah, just a nice nod there.
Yeah.
Well, another thing that I loveis that um Sarah, um, when she
(31:49):
sings, like, or well, when allof them sing, yeah, um, but it's
their actual voice.
They didn't have anotheranother person like dub in for
the singing part.
Yeah.
It's their actual singingvoice.
Joe (32:03):
Yeah, I would I would hope so.
Yeah.
Dylan (32:06):
Well, because that that happens quite a bit.
Joe (32:08):
Oh, yeah, I know that.
So wait till we get to WestSide's story.
Dylan (32:16):
But yeah, so um, so I just I honestly just assumed
that it was somebody else likesinging, singing for them.
I mean, Bet Medler is like hervoice is kind of so iconic, you
can't, you know, and she singsanyways.
But yeah, so so Sarah, when shesings, so like every time she
(32:39):
sings in the movie, I'm like,yes, it's good.
Joe (32:43):
No, yeah, it's like Bet Medler, uh, you know, if if you
had like, I don't know, Madonnaor Prince or something in a
movie, and you didn't actuallyhave them sing right in the
world.
Right.
Is there a reason they're here?
Right.
Yeah.
unknown (33:03):
Yeah.
Dylan (33:04):
And so like with the singing and stuff, also like the
iconic song of the whole movie,um, I put a spell on you,
almost didn't make the cut.
Wow.
Why?
Um, so David Kirshner didn'tthink that a song would fit the
tone of the movie.
And so um he was trying to getit cut, and it obviously got
(33:26):
ended up getting left in andturned into the one of the most
legendary scenes you know in themovie.
Yeah.
And so um Kitchener later onactually admits just how wrong
he was like with wanting to cutthat.
Joe (33:43):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, it did strikeme as like because they play
off of the original song, I puta spell on you.
Dylan (33:52):
Which they they actually started with that um first time
I noticed it in the movie isthat like while like they're
trying to find the witches likein the in the uh um city hall
there, yeah.
Um that they're playing I put aspell on you, like in the
background.
Joe (34:10):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so like the way they kindof um they basically not remixed
it, but they they you know kindof did a redo and in their own
spin.
And so it starts with theoriginal, and you kind of get
familiar with it, and then allof a sudden they break into
their own thing, and that wascool.
(34:31):
Like, that's what made it to melike um you know, a better
version, right?
Dylan (34:38):
So, and then um spoilers for the second movie, but so um
in Hocus Pocus 2 that came out acouple years ago, um, their big
song in that one was kind ofthe same scenario, is that there
is a uh a Halloween um festivalgoing on.
(35:01):
And so um they like during thefestival, the witches get there
and they're hunting for the maincharacters in it.
And so in that in that movie,the main song is one way or
another.
(35:22):
Oh and same thing, they puttheir own spin on it, yeah, and
it's so good.
Nice.
So, Joe, as a first-timeviewer, how many spell books out
of ten would you rate this?
Joe (35:38):
Hmm.
Like, would I rather go watchQuidditch instead?
Dylan (35:46):
The wrong franchise.
Joe (35:49):
Or uh what kind of pizza would it be?
Dylan (35:53):
Man, um I think for me, like a big thing of what keeps
me coming back every year towatch it, and like in fairness,
I I first saw it probably fiveor six years ago.
Yeah um but like I've watchedit probably once a season once
(36:21):
you know, once a Halloweenseason since.
And like something I just loveabout like the overall movie and
the overall feel of it is thatit really dips in and out of
like kind of the extra spookyinto the comedy, and yeah, it
just like goes back and forth sowell.
(36:41):
Yeah, and like you you don'treally know, you know, for your
first watch, like what you'regoing to get coming up next.
Joe (36:50):
Yeah, yeah, and you have to appreciate like even some of
the actors that that are in itand you know the the writing and
things like that.
Dylan (36:59):
Right, right.
Because like the the witchesoverall are hilarious, yeah.
And um, like Bat Medler, shewas like she um what's it called
when they like riff theirlines?
Oh, ad-libbed.
Um yeah, she ad-libbed a lot ofher like old timey swears.
(37:22):
Oh and because she she feltlike what they had like in the
movie currently wasn't it wasn'tauthentic to what that
character would actually say.
Oh and so same thing with Billyis when he first um cuts open
his mouth, yeah, he his scriptdoesn't have him calling her a
(37:46):
witch.
Oh it's another word thatrhymes with that, yeah, yeah.
But he didn't think that thatwould be um first off, he didn't
want to be calling Bet Midleror any of those ladies.
Right, yeah.
And um, and then also they feltlike it just didn't fit the the
time of it.
Joe (38:07):
I think it I think uh for me it'd be a six.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean I'd watch it again.
I definitely would, yeah.
Cause I think the first timeviewing, I'm trying to there's a
lot of characters.
You're taking everything outwhat's going on, uh, you know,
(38:28):
why is this happening?
Why why was this built up?
Um you know, with with thefirst section of kids, um I was
thrown off because like thedescription said, some kids
conjure up three witches fromthe past, and then it jumps into
this scenario of like, oh,these kids are already, you
(38:52):
know, in this situation.
Like, what what's what'shappening?
Yeah, you know.
So yeah, I was definitelythrown off by some of that, but
and then oh, the other thingthat I was thrown off by too was
that I thought um Max, he's themain character, right?
(39:12):
I thought he was gonna makefriends.
Yeah, I thought he was makingfriends when he met Ice and the
other guy, and I was like, oh,cool, he you know, he's making
friends, and I was like, Oh,great, you know, so funny, yeah.
Dylan (39:26):
So yeah, D Flynn got Tweedledee and Tweedledum on
that one.
Yeah, yeah.
Joe (39:32):
Well, that's what I said, like um uh Bet Miller's
character um reminded me of ofthe uh um Queen of Hearts from
Alice in Wonderland.
Yeah, and her makeup and herhair and everything, and so it's
like that's just that's justeven more confirmation for me
(39:54):
that Tweedled Tweedled andTweedled were there.
Dylan (39:59):
Yeah.
Shaving ice in the back of yourhead, yeah.
Um I think for me on a Dave'spizza scale, yeah, I I would
rate it an eight.
Yeah, yeah.
I like it.
I like it.
And like I said, I I guess Ihave a fondness for it because I
keep coming back to it.
But uh why do you why did youkeep saying Dave's pizza though
(40:23):
for your ratings?
Joe (40:25):
Because Dave's pizza is um is Barstool sports, and uh Dave
is the guy who who does the likehe'll go to a pizza place and
and rate the pizza and he'll sayhe'll say, you know, best score
is ten, uh the rule is onebite, and then he takes a bite
(40:46):
out of the pizza, and then he'llsay, like, you know, he'll
he'll rate the flop or whetherit sags or not, you know.
Oh funny.
Yeah, so he's yeah, he's he'sthe guy.
Dylan (40:57):
He's known for giving pizza eights.
Joe (41:00):
Yeah.
Not always, no, like that's ait's a far cry to to give a a
pizza, like he'll he'll bepretty brutal on some pizza.
Yeah, yeah.
At least he's honest about it.
Yeah, and people the funnything is people will will um
will contact him and say, hey,you gotta rate this place and
it's the best.
Oh yeah, yeah, it's better thanthis place that you rated,
(41:21):
blah, blah, blah.
And then so he'll go thereimpartial and you know, rate it
and and just, you know, andsometimes it's terrible.
It's just terrible.
Yeah.
Dylan (41:35):
So that's what um when my when my dad helped my sister
move cross country um thissummer, I guess they stopped
somewhere that Dave tried theirpizza.
Okay.
And so he was telling me aboutit, and I was like, what?
I didn't get it at the time.
(41:56):
Yeah.
How do you feel like hocuspocus holds up today?
Joe (42:01):
Uh I think it holds up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think like, you know, all inall, it's a Disney movie, and I
think like they're only gonnapush, or I would say uh there
was a certain point, and thiswas where they were at the time,
yeah, where they were theywould only push the rating so
far.
Right.
(42:21):
And um, but they wouldn't theythey had a bar, you know, and
they set it there.
And so even if it was a TVmovie or a big release, they
they always wanted to give theirbest.
Yeah.
And so I feel like that's whyeven it being a classic Disney
(42:42):
movie, it's kind of timelessbecause um even though you even
though I hadn't seen it, it'spart of like Halloween culture
and Halloween, you know, likeit's just you know, you know the
characters without knowing why.
Right.
Dylan (43:01):
Like with knowing the characters and being you know
such a big part of Halloweenculture, like that's what
Disney's um Halloween party thatthey do every year is they have
a Sanderson Sisters stage showthat they do there in front of
the castle.
Nice, and so um they they singthis song on the stage show, and
(43:26):
then with the uh call andresponse of the actual spell
part that the the crowd callsback to the sisters, um they
have the big words likeprojected up on the castle for
people to like read it to callback.
Joe (43:44):
Yeah.
So um so of the charactersYeah, Winnie, Sarah, um and
Mary, yeah.
Dylan (44:02):
So who would you say you're more like um I would say
I probably most like Winifred.
Okay.
Um kind of the the lead witchum and kind of the the ring the
(44:24):
ringleader of the the band ofmonkeys.
So, you know, and not that notthat she would be or I, you
know, would be one for thedramatics.
Yeah.
But if we were it's on par.
Yeah.
Joe (44:44):
Well, at least you didn't choose the fat mean witch.
Yeah, I think like I didn't getthat from Mary, but I'd
probably be a Mary.
Um I didn't get you know, I Idon't know if the role had
changed uh or would she changedit?
Dylan (45:03):
Yeah, it could have because um I think with with
that role, um, when Kathy tookthat role, I think some stuff
did get changed about it.
Joe (45:14):
Yeah.
Cause she definitely didn'tseem that way.
She seemed kinder, she seemedmore innocent, kind of the um
the Ray kind of, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Dylan (45:28):
So go check out the Ghostbusters episode.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, I definitely seeMary for you.
Well, the black flame candle'sout, but our next adventure is
just getting started.
(45:49):
From witches and spells tobooby traps and buried gold, the
Goonies are up next.
Joe (46:00):
Well, thank you guys for joining us for this spooky
premiere.
Make sure that you like,subscribe, go on our Patreon,
even though we don't have one.
Dylan (46:10):
If we had a Patreon, we'd send you there.
Joe (46:12):
And go to all the socials and like us and uh and and
follow us.
Dylan (46:17):
Yeah, been trying to put more stuff out on Instagram and
stuff, so so go join some midmidweek polls and and uh other
hocus pocus on there.
Yeah, let people know.
Well, until next time, don'tlight any mysterious candles
unless you want three witchescrashing your party.
By moon's bright glow and candles light, we twist this
show from day to night.
The black flame burns, the micstands tall, where movie magic
beckons all.
A tale unseen, a spell begun,for Joe's first watch has just
begun.
And Dylan, keeper of the lore,has walked to these reels and
(00:25):
knows the score.
By Salem's charm and laughter'scall, we twist this show till
credits fall.
So sip your brew and take yourseat.
Dylan (01:39):
Hocus Pocus is rated PG but includes some mature
references.
Teenager Max moves to Salem,lights the Black Flame candle,
and resurrects three 17thcentury witch sisters, Winifred,
Mary, and Sarah.
The help from his sister Danny,classmate Allison, and the
cursed cat, Thackeray Binks, hemust stop them from draining
(02:00):
children's life forces beforesunrise.
Released July 1993, not onHalloween, directed by
choreographer-turned filmmakerKenny Ortega, starring Bet
Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker,Kathy Najemy, Omri Katz, Thora
Birch, and Vanessa Shaw.
(02:22):
The movie began as HalloweenHouse, a darker script conceived
by screenwriter Mick Garris andproducer David Kirschhner.
Kirchner originally told it asa bedtime story for his
daughters, then pitched it toDisney by inviting executives
into a dark room filled withbrooms, a vacuum, and 15 pounds
of candy corn.
Joe (02:43):
I bet the scary part for some people was the candy corn.
They're like brooms we canhandle.
Dylan (02:50):
Man, like it would have smelled so sweet.
Yeah.
Like it would have it wouldhave smelled like Halloween
night.
Yeah.
So did you have anything thatreally surprised you about the
movie?
Joe (03:04):
Yeah, I didn't expect Jason Martin.
Yeah.
Um you know, I didn't know,obviously, I didn't know what it
was about, and all I kind ofgot was that it was about these
witches, and uh I had no idea.
Dylan (03:21):
I just really uh Right, because it's super easy to be
like, oh yeah, there's witches,they go wreak havoc and they die
at some s sunrise, yeah.
Whatever.
Joe (03:32):
The typical right.
Dylan (03:34):
Yeah, because that's definitely kind of more a cookie
cutter interpretation of likewitches in general.
Joe (03:42):
It was originally a Disney movie, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
It's hard to tell these daysbecause Disney just bought
everything, so it's likeoffright it becomes a Disney
movie whether you wanted it toor not, you know.
Dylan (03:56):
Right.
Um, so actually when they werefirst pitching this movie, they
were not into it at all.
Um, because the original moviethat was pitched was actually um
a lot darker and followed umthe sisters, the witches, a like
a lot more than the kids.
(04:17):
And so um they when they werelike going through and like
coming up with the ideas for themovie and stuff, like it got
shot shot down a lot because ofit being too scary and being a
Disney movie, yeah.
And um, you know, they wantedtheir movies more aimed towards
(04:40):
families and stuff, and so umeven like the movie that was
shot initially was a lot darker,featuring the witches a lot
more, and it actually got gotcut and rearranged in the
cutting room.
Joe (04:58):
Oh to so it didn't seem as dark, right?
Or yeah.
Huh.
Dylan (05:03):
Um so yeah, it it initially was a flop because it
started or it released in Julyand not in in Halloween season
in October.
Joe (05:20):
Yeah.
Dylan (05:20):
Kind of crazy.
Joe (05:21):
Yeah, it it's a pretty interesting time to release a
movie like that.
Right.
Yeah.
Dylan (05:28):
The whole movie features, you know, Halloween night and
all Halloween's eve, and youknow, and you're like, yeah,
let's we just celebrate theFourth of July, let's go watch
this movie.
Joe (05:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Let's celebrate Halloween.
Right.
Dylan (05:42):
So yeah, it wasn't really uh a big hit until until it um
on home video.
Yeah, right.
Thank you.
Joe (05:55):
Which is probably VHS at the time.
Dylan (05:59):
What is that?
Joe (06:01):
Um it's for a whole different podcast.
Maybe just an episode.
We'll do a episode on media,physical media, and the
evolution.
The the evolution of physicalmedia from beta to 4K.
Dylan (06:20):
Um what did you think about the the music scene kind
of in the middle of it?
Joe (06:27):
It was cool.
Yeah.
Um you know, uh I know enoughabout the actresses that uh I'm
old school, so I'm sayingactresses.
I don't know if that's I don'tknow what else you'd call them,
but you did great.
Um you know, not to jump intonecessarily jump deep into
(06:51):
people, but if you're gonna havea movie with with Bette Midler
in it, uh you gotta take theopportunity for her to sing.
Right.
You know, right like how manymovies can you think of that
she's you know that she's sungon and and yeah acted, and she's
just one of those uh actressesthat that has the um just has
(07:17):
all the element you know of astar.
Dylan (07:19):
She's and the the vocal range.
Man, she she does amazing.
Yeah.
Um so another one of the moviesthat Bette Midler um starred in
is Gypsy.
And so Hocus Pocus actuallygives a nod to Gypsy when
Winifred gets up on stage andshe says, My name's Winnie,
(07:42):
what's yours?
Uh-huh.
That's a nod to Gypsy becausewhen Gypsy gets first on stage,
that's what she says.
My name's Gypsy, what's yours?
Oh yeah, nice.
But yeah, Bet Midler, like sheloves the film and um would say
that it's what helped startedthe kind of the Halloween movie
(08:02):
move.
Yeah.
Joe (08:03):
Yeah.
Huh.
Dylan (08:04):
So yeah, that's Winifred.
And then you also have Sarah,so she's the flirty sister.
Joe (08:11):
Um which kind of threw me off because her name is Sarah.
I was like, oh, I'm gonnaremember this.
I better remember thischaracter's name, anybody's name
I remember.
Dylan (08:25):
Right.
And it's so funny.
I didn't notice one of thescenes in the dance hall when he
like or Wither Fred like pullsher away from from kissing one
of the boys there.
That was funny.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, um Sarah Jac SarahJessica Parker um is actually
(08:46):
distantly related to uh EstherElwell, which is an accused
Salem era witch.
Joe (08:53):
Oh so she probably embraced the rule.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, she's been been on somany things.
Um and you know, I've seen Igrew up seeing her on multiple
things, you know, yeah TV showsand whatnot.
So yeah, she's she's great.
Dylan (09:15):
So then the last sister is Mary, so she's the smell
tracking sister.
We kept referring to her as thedog.
Yeah.
Yeah, but so Rosie O'Donnell umactually declined that role um
because she didn't want to playa fat mean witch and be cruel to
children.
Um you also have Max, which Ibelieved that.
Joe (09:42):
Are you okay?
She just plays one in reallife.
Sorry, sorry, Rosie.
That's delicate cut, but I justhad to say it.
Dylan (10:04):
I'll leave it in.
Okay.
So yeah, um Amri Katz playedMax, and uh, if I remember
correctly, this is actually oneof the first movies that he's
been in.
Um Thora Birch is Danny andVanessa Shaw as Allison.
(10:28):
Um Sean Murray uh plays thehuman Thackeray Binks, and Jason
Marsden is actually the voiceof Thackeray Binks.
Joe (10:39):
Yeah.
Um my wife and I were just likeI I just said NCIS.
Because I couldn't I couldn'teven think of you know his
character's name.
And uh but in in NCIS, but itwas like it's like oh that's
him, you know, and yeah, andthen you said Jason Marston.
I'm like, oh well he's EddieMonster from the New Monsters,
(11:01):
and and that that's all I canremember him from.
Yeah.
Um I mean not that to me that'sto me that was his role, and I
know like he was in the goofymovie, right?
He's done all kinds of other,you know, other roles, but to
me, like um it's kind of likemost people know Sylvester
Stallone from Rocky, right?
You know, Jason Martin to mewas Eddie Munster, you know.
Dylan (11:25):
But yeah, um the reason that they had Jason Marsden do
the voice of it is that theydidn't think that Murray had a
uh they thought that his voicewas too modern to play a
300-year-old cat.
Joe (11:42):
Oh so was it was it um was he doing uh English accent but
it sounded too modern, or was ituh an American accent and it's
sounded too?
Dylan (11:54):
Yeah, it was it was an English accent and they thought
it was just too modern.
Yeah.
Like, you know, your vocalinflections.
Right, you know, you can't, youknow, stuff that you can't
really help, just the way youtalk.
Yeah.
And so um Leonardo DiCaprio wasinitially offered the role to
(12:15):
play Max.
Oh would have been a such adifferent movie, wouldn't it?
Yeah, um, the reason he turnedit down, and they actually
offered him a lot of money to doit, yeah.
But um, he was actually alreadyum in production of What's
Eating Gilbert Grape.
Joe (12:32):
Okay.
Dylan (12:33):
So yeah, yeah.
So yeah.
Um, but yeah, I don't know howthat how the movie would have
been with with DiCaprio.
Joe (12:43):
I don't know, it just Yeah, it's hard to say.
Like I'm trying to think of sothis was in '93.
Um Gilbert Grape.
Because it was before a lot ofstuff.
So he like I think the biggestthing he had done was growing
(13:04):
pains from that point.
Yeah.
Dylan (13:05):
And then Gilbert Grape was what like kind of threw him
out into you know, so it's likeYeah, because I I thought
Gilbert Grape was what kind ofrocketed him.
Joe (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, just looking at at his roles and how how they
kind of went up, and he was not,you know, Leonardo DiCaprio.
Right.
So yeah, it just would havebeen different.
And who knows if this wouldhave made him, you know, in a
different way.
Dylan (13:33):
Right, right.
It could have changed the wholetrajectory of his career.
Yeah.
Um, so Billy Butcherson, soplayed by Doug Jones, um, is the
zombie and ex-boyfriend um whouh coughed up real moths.
Oh, really?
Oh yeah, we'll get into that alittle later.
Joe (13:55):
All right, Doug.
Um so yeah.
Um he's he's been on a lot oflike yeah, so I I know Doug
Jones from a lot of differentmovies.
Um, kind of like Andy Circus.
He's Andy Circus is one ofthose actors who he played
(14:16):
Gollum.
Um he could and he also playedKing Kong.
So he could act with his body,yeah, and act with his emotions.
And um Doug Jones is one ofthose those character actors
that people go to just forthey'll go to him just for his
his the way he can contort hisbody, the way he can um, you
(14:40):
know, just mime things and actwithout speaking.
Um you know, I know him fromHellboy.
Uh he played Ape Ape Sapien inin Hellboy.
So the minute he popped out, Iwas like, that's Doug Jones.
Dylan (14:55):
That's just saw his face, and that's just yeah, I heard
you saying something down thereto your wife, but I couldn't I
couldn't make it out.
Joe (15:03):
Yeah, we're Hellboy fans.
Um the movies, yeah, and we'vewatched them over and over and
just so she knew who Ape Sapienwas.
That's great.
Dylan (15:12):
So So for Kenny Ortega's vision of the movie, um coming
from choreography, um, heblended like broad comedy and
music.
I put a spell on you, um, andlike big elaborate practical
effects.
And I know this is somethingthat I've harped on like every
(15:35):
episode, but I love practicaleffects.
Yeah, it just sells it, itreally does.
Um so like the production umbuilt the Sanderson Cottage and
the graveyard on a soundstage.
Um everything from the movingfloorboards to candles lighting
(15:56):
was done physically rather thanCGI.
Like, could you imagine likestanding up on that on those
floorboards when it starts justrattling underneath you?
Yeah, and it's not like theywere moving a little bit.
I mean, they were moving likeseveral inches.
Joe (16:10):
Yeah, you know, and in '93, uh you know, CG's still in its
infancy.
Um and I noted that it wasRhythm and Hughes that did the
production on thepost-production on that.
But yeah, still in its infancy,still, you know, people got
(16:30):
kind of like would use them alot, but it it was yeah, it I I
like the way they pulled it offhere.
It wasn't I I feel like yeah,it wasn't cheesy or anything.
Dylan (16:42):
Yeah.
So then also the um thecemetery finale scene was also
staged on a giant set, and sothey had um green green lighting
and fog all around too to giveit that color pop.
Joe (16:59):
Nice.
Dylan (17:00):
Um for the flying witches, um the actresses were
rigged to wires and pulled bycrew.
Um so Sarah Sarah JessicaParker, she loved flying.
Um, she sometimes um likesometimes the rig would fail and
(17:21):
she would get like stuckmid-air.
And so um often she would havea like a New York Times in the
back of her corset.
Yeah, and so she would pull itout and just start reading it
while just dangling midair untilthey got her out.
Yeah.
Joe (17:40):
I love uh later on when um um I'm trying to remember the
character's name, oh, Mary, uhswitches to a vacuum.
Yeah.
Dylan (17:56):
Um for the for the flying scenes too, when um so they
like for the big wide shots,they were in the wire harness.
And then for the tight close-upshots, um oh, I don't remember
what it's called now, but it waslike a big um like a big boom
(18:16):
arm that they were on, and sothey had the camera on one end
of it to where it couldn't seeany of the boom arm, but
everything above it um was justthe actresses and stuff.
Yeah, and so that gave themlike they still could rotate
like the end of the boom arm andeach piece individually, so
(18:36):
they still had like 360 degreesof motion, whatever they wanted
to film.
And so so yeah, that's how theygot those close-up like
swooping scenes.
And so um for the shots wherethey were like far away
silhouettes or um like I thinkof the moment, like when the
(19:02):
roof of the house explodes andthey go flying out.
Um, so those are still real,they're not CGI.
Um they're there, they werepuppets made by a local company
there.
And so that way when they weredoing kind of the faraway shots
of the sisters flying, they theydidn't need to like you know
(19:25):
use CGI or anything like that toget that long distance shot.
They were just like and thesepuppets are only eight inches
tall or so, like, and they werestrapped to the broom and stuff,
yeah.
And so they had a rod um goinginto the top of the head to like
be able to like turn them, makethem look around, and um they
(19:49):
still had like all the motionthat the actual actresses would
have had on the broom.
Joe (19:57):
So you're saying like they would be the actresses would be
there and then it would turninto puppets?
Dylan (20:04):
Right.
Okay, right.
So like for that scene, they'llhave like the explosion and
then um uh the I don't know ifthey would like composite the
film or or what, but so thenthat would be the shot of the
puppets coming out of it.
Oh yeah, nice for the for allthe cats, all the little Binxes.
(20:29):
Um they to to film the Binx'sscenes, yeah, um, the crew
actually used multiple livecats.
Oh um, so each cat was trainedfor a single trick.
Nice.
And so uh Vanessa Shaw umrecalls a literal wall of cats
(20:51):
behind the set with differentanimals that were prepared to
walk, pounce, sleep, or swipe.
Nice.
So yeah, for each of the kindof the different stuff, they
would just have like a differentcat stand in.
Joe (21:05):
Yeah.
Yeah, one of my favorite uhparts of Universal is is going
to that animal show where youcan see, you know, all the
different animals with all thedifferent tricks and things like
that.
And it's really, you know, thewhole term of of herding cats,
you know, it's it's it's a hardthing to do.
(21:27):
So I gotta give it to all theall the people who worked on the
movie with the cats becausethey're they could be impossible
sometimes.
Dylan (21:36):
Yeah.
Um so going back to Doug Jonesas Billy, yeah, um, he had real
moths and dust in his mouth.
And so they used a dental dammade out of um like a plastic or
a latex, excuse me.
Um it was made out of thelatex, and the moths and dust
(22:01):
were placed by tweezers.
Oh and he had to just hold themin his mouth while filming it.
Yeah.
Um and so he said he would saythat as he was sitting there
waiting for for them to shootthe scene, he could feel the
moths fluttering in his mouth.
Oh, and so uh that just soundshorrible.
(22:24):
It does.
So um, so on the original scenethat they filmed of that, they
had a light break.
Oh, and so dur like during thetake, and so then they had to
like reset and reshoot thatscene.
So not only did he have to doit the first time, but then they
(22:45):
had to redo it because of that.
Joe (22:48):
Oh man.
Dylan (22:49):
That's oh but yeah, I mean, it definitely sells that
shot though when he when he cutsopen the stitches holding his
mouth closed, and you see thethe puff of dust in the moths.
Yeah.
Joe (23:02):
Like it is definitely a surprise.
Yeah.
Jennifer (23:11):
Feeling tired, wrinkled, perhaps a bit too
mortal.
Fear not, Dearies.
The Sanderson Sisters YouthSerum is back for another
enchanting season.
Brewed fresh in Salem with ourpatented blend of moonlight,
mystery, and um one or twosecret ingredients we can't
(23:32):
legally mention.
One sip, and you'll feelcenturies younger.
Side effects may includespontaneous keggling or turning
your vacuum into a personaltransport device.
unknown (23:46):
Shh.
Jennifer (23:47):
And remember, it's all just a bunch of focus.
Available now wherever magicalpotions are questionably sold.
And please, for your ownsafety, don't light the black
flame candle.
Foolish mortals.
Dylan (24:17):
Did you have a specific like favorite scene you can
think of out of the whole wholemovie?
Joe (24:25):
Other than any time they showed Binks because he looks
like my cat.
Let me think.
Dylan (24:36):
Okay, so um I think one of my favorites is probably when
Max lights the black flamecandle and then the the shack
around them like starts to likewake up.
Joe (24:54):
Oh, okay.
Dylan (24:55):
Like I love seeing like all just all the practical
effects.
Yeah.
Um another good one is when thewitches sing I put a spell on
you at the town hall.
Um and they're like you can seethere the choreography of them
(25:17):
dancing, and you can they umshow like shots of like
middler's like shoes and stuff.
Yeah.
And so the striped socks thatshe wears is actually inspired
by the wicked witches socks fromWizard of Oz.
Joe (25:33):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Yeah, and I I feel like in thatin that choreography and
everything, it still carries thecharacter's personality
through.
Yeah.
Um, I think off the top of myhead, just a quirky um scene for
(25:54):
me was when they're trying toget the cops help.
Oh, yeah.
And he's so nonchalant aboutit, like because it's the first
time, I'm thinking, oh, was doesthis happen all the time and he
just doesn't care?
Right.
You know, like oh, they got outagain, you know, or you know,
(26:14):
somebody lit the candle again.
Right.
Dylan (26:16):
I mean, because like with all of that being there, like
that has to happen.
Like, you know, prank callslike that would have to happen
like every Halloween.
Yeah.
They're like, oh, we lit theblack flame candle.
Joe (26:31):
Right.
Dylan (26:34):
Yeah, and then and then the the girl walks out and gets
onto the bike behind him, andthey're laughing that he's not a
real cop.
Yeah.
Another one that like reallystands out to me is during the
the final cemetery showdown withthe with the salt, when Alison
(26:56):
like shakes the salt into herhand and throws it up.
Yeah.
And and Sarah is like swoopingtowards her, hits the salt, and
does a complete backflip.
Joe (27:06):
Oh, yeah.
Dylan (27:07):
Um to do that, she had to like throw her body backwards
to get it to roll like that.
Nice.
Joe (27:14):
And yeah, I kind of picked up that when um what's the
character's name?
But was it Vanessa, theactress?
Dylan (27:22):
Vanessa Shaw.
Yeah.
Joe (27:23):
Yeah.
Um, at the like she runs out ofsalt, but she has a little bit
and she throws it behind herback.
Did you notice that?
Yeah, so it was like good luck.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then the the um, you know,the master and and uh, you know,
(27:46):
Medusa.
Yeah.
Um that was for me was one ofthose odd, odd kind of throw-in
things, just because like Idon't know if you know um Gary
and Penny Marshall, but GaryMarshall produced tons of TV
shows.
Dylan (28:04):
Yeah.
Joe (28:05):
And Penny Marshall uh was on Laverne and Shirley, and she
went on to I think she directedBig and a lot of other uh huge
films, yeah.
And she went from TV actress tohuge film director, and so like
they're like Hollywood royalty,and like so to have this like
(28:25):
little part in there, it was itwas hilarious just to see them
together, yeah.
Dylan (28:29):
And it's so funny too that like in the movie they play
a couple, they play husband andwife, right?
But in real life, they'resiblings, yeah.
Uh-huh.
Like, yeah, so apparently likethe original scripting for that
had a kiss scene in there forthose characters.
And so then when they found outthat it was going to be um that
(28:51):
it was going to be siblings,they're like, Yeah, we can't
have that.
Yeah, yeah, I can't do that.
So did you notice how um eachof the witches riding her
broomstick actually reflects hercharacter?
Joe (29:06):
Was it the way they rode them or was it their broomstick?
Dylan (29:09):
So it's the way that they rode them.
Oh, okay.
Okay, so Winnie is like she wasvery vigorous with her flying.
She's very on the nose.
While like Mary is veryguarded, and Sarah is just all
out crazy and throws caution tothe wind with it.
Yeah.
Um, so the way that theyactually decided to have them
(29:33):
fly like the way that they do,is that um one of the one of the
producers um actually did aride along with each of the
actresses to see how they drive.
So the way that they fly theirbrooms is how they drove in real
life.
Joe (29:53):
That's cool.
Dylan (29:55):
Yeah.
Joe (29:56):
That's an extra um.
Extra time put in to kind ofget you know get the characters
down.
Dylan (30:06):
Right.
I mean, and it's care like thatthat goes into the filming and
you know, planning thecharacters and stuff.
That's what sells it.
Joe (30:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dylan (30:20):
Um so yeah, parts of the movie was filmed in Salem.
So like the original um, youknow, 300 years ago like the
opening scene.
Joe (30:32):
Uh-huh.
Dylan (30:32):
Um that that is um like the original Salem that they
filmed in.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and then the big, the bighouse that Allison lives in that
the the um what would you callit?
Like the old you know, curlyhaired wigs.
(30:53):
Uh-huh.
Um, but so all the peopledressed up in like Victorian
era.
Oh, yeah.
Uh-huh.
That's what it's called.
Yeah.
Um, all the people dressed upin Victorian era, that that big
white house that they stand inlooking all, that's in Salem.
Oh.
And so um people would like goto Salem during Halloween to see
(31:14):
that house.
Oh.
Because they wanted it to seeall see it all done up.
And they were very disappointedbecause the whoever had that,
it's part of a museum.
Joe (31:25):
Okay.
Dylan (31:25):
And the museum didn't dress it up for Halloween.
So I guess for one of theanniversaries of the movie, they
redid the front of the houseexactly like it was in the
movie.
Oh, cool.
So yeah, just a nice nod there.
Yeah.
Well, another thing that I loveis that um Sarah, um, when she
(31:49):
sings, like, or well, when allof them sing, yeah, um, but it's
their actual voice.
They didn't have anotheranother person like dub in for
the singing part.
Yeah.
It's their actual singingvoice.
Joe (32:03):
Yeah, I would I would hope so.
Yeah.
Dylan (32:06):
Well, because that that happens quite a bit.
Joe (32:08):
Oh, yeah, I know that.
So wait till we get to WestSide's story.
Dylan (32:16):
But yeah, so um, so I just I honestly just assumed
that it was somebody else likesinging, singing for them.
I mean, Bet Medler is like hervoice is kind of so iconic, you
can't, you know, and she singsanyways.
But yeah, so so Sarah, when shesings, so like every time she
(32:39):
sings in the movie, I'm like,yes, it's good.
Joe (32:43):
No, yeah, it's like Bet Medler, uh, you know, if if you
had like, I don't know, Madonnaor Prince or something in a
movie, and you didn't actuallyhave them sing right in the
world.
Right.
Is there a reason they're here?
Right.
Yeah.
unknown (33:03):
Yeah.
Dylan (33:04):
And so like with the singing and stuff, also like the
iconic song of the whole movie,um, I put a spell on you,
almost didn't make the cut.
Wow.
Why?
Um, so David Kirshner didn'tthink that a song would fit the
tone of the movie.
And so um he was trying to getit cut, and it obviously got
(33:26):
ended up getting left in andturned into the one of the most
legendary scenes you know in themovie.
Yeah.
And so um Kitchener later onactually admits just how wrong
he was like with wanting to cutthat.
Joe (33:43):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, it did strikeme as like because they play
off of the original song, I puta spell on you.
Dylan (33:52):
Which they they actually started with that um first time
I noticed it in the movie isthat like while like they're
trying to find the witches likein the in the uh um city hall
there, yeah.
Um that they're playing I put aspell on you, like in the
background.
Joe (34:10):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so like the way they kindof um they basically not remixed
it, but they they you know kindof did a redo and in their own
spin.
And so it starts with theoriginal, and you kind of get
familiar with it, and then allof a sudden they break into
their own thing, and that wascool.
(34:31):
Like, that's what made it to melike um you know, a better
version, right?
Dylan (34:38):
So, and then um spoilers for the second movie, but so um
in Hocus Pocus 2 that came out acouple years ago, um, their big
song in that one was kind ofthe same scenario, is that there
is a uh a Halloween um festivalgoing on.
(35:01):
And so um they like during thefestival, the witches get there
and they're hunting for the maincharacters in it.
And so in that in that movie,the main song is one way or
another.
(35:22):
Oh and same thing, they puttheir own spin on it, yeah, and
it's so good.
Nice.
So, Joe, as a first-timeviewer, how many spell books out
of ten would you rate this?
Joe (35:38):
Hmm.
Like, would I rather go watchQuidditch instead?
Dylan (35:46):
The wrong franchise.
Joe (35:49):
Or uh what kind of pizza would it be?
Dylan (35:53):
Man, um I think for me, like a big thing of what keeps
me coming back every year towatch it, and like in fairness,
I I first saw it probably fiveor six years ago.
Yeah um but like I've watchedit probably once a season once
(36:21):
you know, once a Halloweenseason since.
And like something I just loveabout like the overall movie and
the overall feel of it is thatit really dips in and out of
like kind of the extra spookyinto the comedy, and yeah, it
just like goes back and forth sowell.
(36:41):
Yeah, and like you you don'treally know, you know, for your
first watch, like what you'regoing to get coming up next.
Joe (36:50):
Yeah, yeah, and you have to appreciate like even some of
the actors that that are in itand you know the the writing and
things like that.
Dylan (36:59):
Right, right.
Because like the the witchesoverall are hilarious, yeah.
And um, like Bat Medler, shewas like she um what's it called
when they like riff theirlines?
Oh, ad-libbed.
Um yeah, she ad-libbed a lot ofher like old timey swears.
(37:22):
Oh and because she she feltlike what they had like in the
movie currently wasn't it wasn'tauthentic to what that
character would actually say.
Oh and so same thing with Billyis when he first um cuts open
his mouth, yeah, he his scriptdoesn't have him calling her a
(37:46):
witch.
Oh it's another word thatrhymes with that, yeah, yeah.
But he didn't think that thatwould be um first off, he didn't
want to be calling Bet Midleror any of those ladies.
Right, yeah.
And um, and then also they feltlike it just didn't fit the the
time of it.
Joe (38:07):
I think it I think uh for me it'd be a six.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean I'd watch it again.
I definitely would, yeah.
Cause I think the first timeviewing, I'm trying to there's a
lot of characters.
You're taking everything outwhat's going on, uh, you know,
(38:28):
why is this happening?
Why why was this built up?
Um you know, with with thefirst section of kids, um I was
thrown off because like thedescription said, some kids
conjure up three witches fromthe past, and then it jumps into
this scenario of like, oh,these kids are already, you
(38:52):
know, in this situation.
Like, what what's what'shappening?
Yeah, you know.
So yeah, I was definitelythrown off by some of that, but
and then oh, the other thingthat I was thrown off by too was
that I thought um Max, he's themain character, right?
(39:12):
I thought he was gonna makefriends.
Yeah, I thought he was makingfriends when he met Ice and the
other guy, and I was like, oh,cool, he you know, he's making
friends, and I was like, Oh,great, you know, so funny, yeah.
Dylan (39:26):
So yeah, D Flynn got Tweedledee and Tweedledum on
that one.
Yeah, yeah.
Joe (39:32):
Well, that's what I said, like um uh Bet Miller's
character um reminded me of ofthe uh um Queen of Hearts from
Alice in Wonderland.
Yeah, and her makeup and herhair and everything, and so it's
like that's just that's justeven more confirmation for me
(39:54):
that Tweedled Tweedled andTweedled were there.
Dylan (39:59):
Yeah.
Shaving ice in the back of yourhead, yeah.
Um I think for me on a Dave'spizza scale, yeah, I I would
rate it an eight.
Yeah, yeah.
I like it.
I like it.
And like I said, I I guess Ihave a fondness for it because I
keep coming back to it.
But uh why do you why did youkeep saying Dave's pizza though
(40:23):
for your ratings?
Joe (40:25):
Because Dave's pizza is um is Barstool sports, and uh Dave
is the guy who who does the likehe'll go to a pizza place and
and rate the pizza and he'll sayhe'll say, you know, best score
is ten, uh the rule is onebite, and then he takes a bite
(40:46):
out of the pizza, and then he'llsay, like, you know, he'll
he'll rate the flop or whetherit sags or not, you know.
Oh funny.
Yeah, so he's yeah, he's he'sthe guy.
Dylan (40:57):
He's known for giving pizza eights.
Joe (41:00):
Yeah.
Not always, no, like that's ait's a far cry to to give a a
pizza, like he'll he'll bepretty brutal on some pizza.
Yeah, yeah.
At least he's honest about it.
Yeah, and people the funnything is people will will um
will contact him and say, hey,you gotta rate this place and
it's the best.
Oh yeah, yeah, it's better thanthis place that you rated,
(41:21):
blah, blah, blah.
And then so he'll go thereimpartial and you know, rate it
and and just, you know, andsometimes it's terrible.
It's just terrible.
Yeah.
Dylan (41:35):
So that's what um when my when my dad helped my sister
move cross country um thissummer, I guess they stopped
somewhere that Dave tried theirpizza.
Okay.
And so he was telling me aboutit, and I was like, what?
I didn't get it at the time.
(41:56):
Yeah.
How do you feel like hocuspocus holds up today?
Joe (42:01):
Uh I think it holds up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think like, you know, all inall, it's a Disney movie, and I
think like they're only gonnapush, or I would say uh there
was a certain point, and thiswas where they were at the time,
yeah, where they were theywould only push the rating so
far.
Right.
(42:21):
And um, but they wouldn't theythey had a bar, you know, and
they set it there.
And so even if it was a TVmovie or a big release, they
they always wanted to give theirbest.
Yeah.
And so I feel like that's whyeven it being a classic Disney
(42:42):
movie, it's kind of timelessbecause um even though you even
though I hadn't seen it, it'spart of like Halloween culture
and Halloween, you know, likeit's just you know, you know the
characters without knowing why.
Right.
Dylan (43:01):
Like with knowing the characters and being you know
such a big part of Halloweenculture, like that's what
Disney's um Halloween party thatthey do every year is they have
a Sanderson Sisters stage showthat they do there in front of
the castle.
Nice, and so um they they singthis song on the stage show, and
(43:26):
then with the uh call andresponse of the actual spell
part that the the crowd callsback to the sisters, um they
have the big words likeprojected up on the castle for
people to like read it to callback.
Joe (43:44):
Yeah.
So um so of the charactersYeah, Winnie, Sarah, um and
Mary, yeah.
Dylan (44:02):
So who would you say you're more like um I would say
I probably most like Winifred.
Okay.
Um kind of the the lead witchum and kind of the the ring the
(44:24):
ringleader of the the band ofmonkeys.
So, you know, and not that notthat she would be or I, you
know, would be one for thedramatics.
Yeah.
But if we were it's on par.
Yeah.
Joe (44:44):
Well, at least you didn't choose the fat mean witch.
Yeah, I think like I didn't getthat from Mary, but I'd
probably be a Mary.
Um I didn't get you know, I Idon't know if the role had
changed uh or would she changedit?
Dylan (45:03):
Yeah, it could have because um I think with with
that role, um, when Kathy tookthat role, I think some stuff
did get changed about it.
Joe (45:14):
Yeah.
Cause she definitely didn'tseem that way.
She seemed kinder, she seemedmore innocent, kind of the um
the Ray kind of, you know.
Yeah, yeah.
Dylan (45:28):
So go check out the Ghostbusters episode.
Yeah.
Um, but yeah, I definitely seeMary for you.
Well, the black flame candle'sout, but our next adventure is
just getting started.
(45:49):
From witches and spells tobooby traps and buried gold, the
Goonies are up next.
Joe (46:00):
Well, thank you guys for joining us for this spooky
premiere.
Make sure that you like,subscribe, go on our Patreon,
even though we don't have one.
Dylan (46:10):
If we had a Patreon, we'd send you there.
Joe (46:12):
And go to all the socials and like us and uh and and
follow us.
Dylan (46:17):
Yeah, been trying to put more stuff out on Instagram and
stuff, so so go join some midmidweek polls and and uh other
hocus pocus on there.
Yeah, let people know.
Well, until next time, don'tlight any mysterious candles
unless you want three witchescrashing your party.
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