September 29, 2025 • 29 mins
Deborah Lockridge talks with Matt Schrap, newly minted chief commercial officer at Forum Mobility and former CEO of the Harbor Trucking Association.
We dig into the regulatory tug-of-war between California and the feds, true TCO drivers for electric trucks in drayage fleets, Tesla Semi expectations, port appointment bottlenecks, and practical incentives to drive fleet electrification.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Deborah Lockridge and today I'm talking to Matt Shrap.
I've interviewed Matt for several times in over the years,
both as CEO of the Harbor Trucking Association and back
years ago even with the California Trucking Association.
But now he's taking on a new role with form Mobility as Chief
(00:21):
Commercial Officer. So, Matt, it's good to talk to
you. It's great to talk to you too.
Do you have always a pleasure and happy to have the
opportunity? So I think let's start a little
(00:43):
bit and talk a little bit about what Form Mobility does.
I know it's electric truck charging infrastructure.
In fact, one of our HDT truck fleet innovators this year, Rudy
Diaz with Height Logistics is apparently a customer.
So Yep, just kind of tell you what, what is it not
formability? What does it do?
Well, I think that you you really probably use the the most
(01:07):
appropriate description, right? They build heavy duty vehicle
charging infrastructure and while the company also offers
what's known as trucks as a service, where you have a low
monthly lease payment for a truck that then charges at the
facility. While that is still part of the
product offerings, the main focus of form has and will
(01:27):
remain to be building infrastructure and providing
solutions for motor carriers whoare looking to make the
transition into battery electricheavy duty class aid or you
know, even in the lighter classes.
But any any truck trucking transportation provider who's
not necessarily wanting to buildthe own infrastructure behind
the fence as it's referred to, but wants to partner with
(01:49):
somebody who's going to maintainthat equipment, is going to have
it staffed, is going to make sure that they are receiving
that high level of service. They go with the group like
forum. And again, that is, that is
their main focus is really building that infrastructure.
So you spend years advocating for truckers at the Harbor
Trucking Association. Drainage truckers, many of whom
(02:10):
are trying have been trying to adapt to electrification.
What made you decide to join formobility?
You know, when I first met the team over at Forum just over
just around four years ago whileI was at the HTAI was
immediately impressed with theirability to understand the
(02:31):
challenges that motor carriers are going through and the sort
of regulatory policy that is really pushing them in a
direction that, you know, many were at the time.
We're kind of going kicking and screaming for lack of a better
way to put it. And the technology was still
evolving. There wasn't a lot of
infrastructure in the ground. You know, they were cost
(02:53):
concerns of the vehicle. There were sort of other larger
legal concerns of whether The Reg was actually enforceable in
the 1st place of subsequently, which we found, you know, with
the waiver being fooled. It's not.
But suffice it to say, all that uncertainty gave fleets a lot of
consternation about moving forward in this transition.
I'd have to say that forum, while they're not alone in this
(03:14):
space, definitely it struck me as a, as a group that was really
focused on really the needs of the fleet operator.
It wasn't being couched in a, you know, we're we're saving the
planet or, you know, out of someguilty drive to kind of
encourage fleets that they need to be that they're part of the
(03:35):
problem and they need to be partof the solution.
It never really was like that. It was always about the rule
needs to be sustainable. The transition needs to be as
sustainable. Fleets need to be able to make
money to survive. And if that doesn't pencil out,
then it's not going to work for them.
And so I was immediately impressed with that perspective
as as not, you know, and not allproviders are created equal,
(03:57):
obviously. And there's some other great
providers out there in this space.
But just in my experience there,I think form was very
forthcoming about where they sawthemselves fitting into this
marketplace. And throughout the years, I got
to know them. They were big supporters of HDA
and of the CTA for that matter. And when the opportunity came up
and a lot of soul searching, youknow, they had approached me and
(04:20):
I, I thought that it was a, it was a good opportunity because
fleets still need help out there.
And I'm going to be able to alsohelp forum really understand
even further and appreciate whattrucking fleets are going
through on a daily basis out there and to continue to
advocate for them for sound sustainable policies on every
level as much as I can. I'll just be wearing a little
(04:41):
bit of a different hat doing it.And you know, again, encouraging
people to try to make decisions that are working, that are going
to work for their business at the end of the day.
Time is money, and that's why Catscale built the Way My Truck
app. Your drivers can complete their
entire way without ever leaving the cab.
They'll see their weights on their mobile device or tablet,
and scale tickets can be automatically emailed to you
(05:03):
with a fleet profile. You can save back office time as
well. No driver reimbursements and
you'll have access to report datafindoutmore@waymytruck.com.
So I mentioned it a bit earlier about it's an interesting time
(05:24):
to be in this space, I think with all the back and forth
about emissions regulations withthe Trump administration's EPA
and California and can, is it legal to regulate this?
Is it not? Are we going to regulate
greenhouse gas emissions? What are your thoughts there?
What? How is this going to possibly
affect the transition to 0 emission vehicles?
(05:46):
It's exciting. You know, on the one hand, Deb,
you know, I've been doing this in the air quality regulatory
space for, you know, 20 years and never would I have thought
that there would be an environment that we're existing
in with so much pushback on ARB rules.
For those of us in California have been dealing with the Air
Resources Board, the regulatory regime of, of the ARB for, you
(06:08):
know, 2 decades now that we havenever really seen this level of
pushback as I had mentioned. And so it's interesting to watch
this happen from a public policystandpoint.
It's unprecedented on many levels, but I think it's clear
that California has been and will remain committed to the
(06:30):
transition. They have a lot of their own
money that they're able to use for incentives.
Even on the utility side, there's incentives available.
On the fuel side, there's incentives available.
Really right now we're we're in a place where the market is
truly going to have to drive this transition.
If the truck has a positive TCO,if it works better for the fleet
(06:52):
operator, if they are able to operate more efficiently,
they're going to naturally adoptit.
You don't need a regulation to get people to get into
technology that's going to save them money at the end of the
day. It's just getting over those
humps and I think dispelling a lot of the rumors and myths
that, you know, California doesn't have the ability to
regulate the transportation industry on one level or
(07:15):
another. Even if it's looking at more
stringent diesel rules to drive people out of that older
equipment and into newer equipment and quite possibly
then into the 0 emissions. And for our sake, battery
electric of course is preferred.But to move them in that
direction, there are other things that they can do that is
that are still at their disposal.
(07:35):
So those local levers combined with the incentive money that's
out there, I still think that there's a good opportunity.
And regardless of what happens in on, in, on the federal level
in DC is not going to change California's mind about the
overall direction they want to go.
And sometimes what happens in federal, you know, emboldens
California to even go further right, to stake their claim in
(07:59):
the Republic of California, as we like to call it, right?
That they're going to work even harder to make sure that they're
going to try to drive this transition by by all means
necessary. And hopefully listen to the
folks who are engaged in this ona daily basis with a little bit
more open mind and understandingto try to get to the place that
they want to go. Yeah, it definitely seems like
(08:19):
we're going to do this one way or another.
These were regulations we can't do.
We will find other ways to do it.
One of the big concerns has beenamong fleets about that TCO,
about that affordability, how, you know, making it actually
(08:40):
something they want to do for their business.
You know, where's that? Are we getting any better with
that? What's the situation?
You know, technology's evolving,right?
I've never liked the analogy of,you know, the iPhone and how far
the iPhones come in that amount of time.
But the more that I've learned about this transition over the
(09:03):
past several years and really trying to internalize these
challenges because not only werewe advocating for the drayage
community and to make sure that,you know, operationally this
made sense, but also from the stance of trying to dispel a lot
of the myths that were out there, even amongst my
membership. And cost is one of the most
challenging things. Before, you know, it was, well,
(09:26):
there's not enough infrastructure.
So the truck's really not the hardest part because they could
build the trucks, They've been building them in Europe.
We have new OEMs moving into thespace.
The trucks aren't necessarily the biggest issue was the
infrastructure. Now that the infrastructure is
coming online, we have an opportunity to look back and
say, OK, now we need to address the challenges with the truck,
(09:46):
which is cost, weight and range.There's more models coming in
and you know, the Tesla Semi is a, is a real thing.
I think that folks back in 2017 there was a lot of high
expectations and you know put people put deposits down, they
were waiting on this vehicle to show up.
And you know, it's taken a little bit of time to get to
(10:07):
this point, but they are on the verge of of being able to
deliver this equipment. And from what we've seen so far,
it has a much greater range thansome of the existing traditional
OEMs that are in this space and a cost that while we don't know
the exact cost, but it's significantly less than some of
the other OEMs that are in the marketplace.
And so when those dynamics startto change, you start having a
(10:29):
vehicle that has a base cost that's close to what a new
diesel is going to, to rent, to run.
I mean, new diesels these days are still over $220,000 out the
door, depending on how it's spec, especially, you know, with
FET and, and sales tax. And while those also apply to
the electric side, the thought is, and again, I was skeptical,
(10:53):
but you're going to see maintenance savings because
they're just less moving parts, right?
And depending on when you're charging and how you're managing
your fuel usage, you can see a cheaper fuel usage rate when
compared to diesel, especially as fuel taxes are continually
increasing. You have the challenges in
California, obviously with some of the refineries leaving,
(11:14):
whether or not we need to start importing more refined fuel,
it's just going to continue to add to the cost.
You have this question of now whether or not, you know, after
treatment devices are even goingto be able to, I guess be
reflashed to not have this derating that's happening, which
is also again, unprecedented. The latest thing you know
(11:35):
there's. Yeah, right.
Exactly. There's a lot of things going on
right now, but you know, the thetechnology has evolved to a
point of when you have OEMs, major OEMs investing hundreds of
millions of dollars in assembly lines, you know, they're
serious. And I will say Tesla is very
serious. And they aren't just hauling,
you know, potato chips and emptysoda cans like folks have been
(11:56):
trying to allege for the past, you know, eight years.
They've been doing a lot of R&D.And so when that truck enters
the marketplace, I really think that it's going to be a game
changer. It is going to provide an
opportunity to bring down that overall TCO that's going to get
much closer, if not beat diesel.And then you have on top of
that, the other kind of general incentives from customers.
(12:18):
We're looking for fleets who aremoving equipment with 0 emission
platforms. You have the clean truck fee in
the Ports Valley and Long Beach.So there are some other, you
know, non monetary incentives essentially that may exist for
fleets to move into. This was just going to help help
pencil it out. So the technological evolution
is true, it's real. And I think we're going to start
(12:39):
seeing the fruits of that here very soon.
While, yes, incentives aren't going to last forever and we
need to get those overall truck prices to come down, it's still
helping those folks, you know, to try to get over that adage
of, you know, pioneers get shot,settlers get rich, right?
That we've seen a lot of people make that first step into this
equipment and are finding that it's, it's, it's better than
(13:03):
they had anticipated. You know, I've been complaining
about the lack of infrastructurefor so long that now finally I'm
in an opportunity where I get tohelp do something about it.
And ideally, as we get that moreinfrastructure online, as more
trucks come into the marketplace, more and more
people see that there is a positive TCO that you have a
great opportunity to to run a piece of equipment that is not
(13:26):
only got a cool and futuristic, but it's going to be better for
your business. That at the end of the day is
really what will drive this adoption.
So kind of go full circle back to the well, where are we in the
regulatory world, Ken? You don't need a regulation to
get people to adopt this if the technology is going to replace
and work better than the existing technology they're
(13:46):
using today. And as you kind of alluded to,
people are starting to see that as we speak in real time.
So a small dredge carrier you'retalking to and they said I just,
I can't afford it, I can't do this.
What do you tell them? Sure, sure.
We, we, we start asking questions about their
operations, you know, for betteror worse.
And Deb, you've been in truckinglong enough.
(14:07):
Some people don't even know whattheir cost per mile is, right?
And they're just out there hustling load to load, you know,
moving the American economy, something that's very, always
been very important to me as an advocate for the trucking
industry about, you know, I loveour truckers.
I really do the trucking companies and especially the
drivers and when we talk to these small fleets, we're
already up against challenges inCalifornia because it's
(14:29):
difficult to do business here. It's I think that that's not a,
a secret that I'm letting out toeveryone.
Costs are higher, right? It's a little bit of a learning
curve for people to be in to, tostay in business and be
successful, especially in trucking and transportation,
especially in drayage. Now we start asking questions
about, OK, what are your operational costs, right?
(14:50):
What are your inputs that are going into keeping that truck on
the road every single day? And as we start drilling down,
we see that, you know, it can show them that.
When do you include incentives, especially when you include
incentives that you're seeing a more positive return then you
would if you were to be staying in that diesel?
Now the one hurdle that we do run into is like, well, I don't
(15:13):
have a truck payment right now, right?
I'm going to get into this electric truck and sure, it's
cheaper and maybe cheaper than Icould get a new diesel financed
for, but I'm not running new trucks to begin with and I don't
have a truck payment. That is the harder part and
where more incentives like looking at the clean truck fee,
if that's going to be a motivating factor for shippers
(15:35):
to really seek out those motor carriers who are running 0
emission equipment. Because if they get more volume
and they get more containers that they're moving and they're
able to service them, they don'tnecessarily need a higher rate
for that movement. The initial cost of entries
seems is a little bit higher. But once you start getting into
it and running the truck and becoming used to it again, as
(15:57):
you had heard, you know, people are experiencing positive TCO
better than they would if they were to be burning diesel.
And so it takes somebody with a little bit of intestinal
fortitude to take that first step.
But once that starts happening and once all their friends start
running the equipment, they're usually the best.
No one wants to be that very first person right in the small
(16:17):
fleet world, but they're coming.And I'll tell you, with the
Tesla truck, I really feel like this is going to be something
that folks are going to see a lot more widespread adoption of
because of technology. It works.
And if it doesn't, then you know, we'll find out.
But I mean, from what we've seen, it hurts so far.
It's, it is, it is real and it'sgoing to be very disruptive to
(16:39):
the industry if it if it, if it delivers and, and is deployed
and the numbers that Tesla's talking about.
I think that there is a lot of skepticism about the Tesla
because it was just every time you turned around, it's like,
yeah, it's going to be next year.
Oh, well, now it's going to be two years.
It's going to be and it just delay after delay after delay.
I'm with you. I was one of those people for
(17:01):
sure, without a doubt. And I think we went and toured
their, you know, their factory that they're building to, to
build this Tesla Semi. And it is impressive.
Like I can tell you they are serious about this.
And you know, all this time, youknow, kind of the question was
like, what have you guys been doing for the past eight years
(17:22):
that everyone's been waiting on?And, you know, they've been
doing a lot of R&D and refining the design of the vehicle to
maximize aerodynamics, to maximize performance, to ensure
reliability. There's a lot of things that
were very positive to the point where I was, you know, in that
camp. And I think a lot of people
were. And I will say that I was
(17:42):
extremely impressed about how far that they've come.
And you know, while this isn't all about Tesla only, there are
other OEMs that have very solid products out there.
I think that what it'll help with is when it comes into the
marketplace, if we see it at that lower price point and then
more and more people start operating it, they're going to
(18:02):
see that battery electric heavy duty vehicles can work.
And I've never said, and neithernone of none of my colleagues
have said either that the technology doesn't work.
It can do the job. It's got the torque, it has the
towing capacity, you know, the range.
There's some, there's some need for better range, right?
(18:23):
These are faster charging times,but those things are right on
the horizon, you know, with the MCS, with MW charging standard,
with battery chemistry technology evolving.
I think we'll we're continue to see these costs go down.
Maybe not in as fast as the air resources board would have liked
it back during the ACF development, but they are headed
(18:44):
in the right direction. So we have those conversations
with those small fleets is really trying to show them, you
know, the pathway to understanding their own costs
and how a battery electric vehicle can help offset those
increased costs of operating internal combustion and why it
potentially is going to be a better pathway for them in their
business. So what?
Are some of the other issues that trade truckers have been
(19:07):
dealing with recently since you're just coming off of your
HTA leadership? Oh my gosh.
The list is long and varied. Deb, I'll tell you this business
is drayage is not for the faint of heart.
That was the very first thing, right?
We've seen some consolidations. We've seen some folks just
straight up go out of business and the challenges that they've
(19:30):
been dealing with. A lot of a lot of the stuff
lately is stemming from the uncertainty around the tariffs.
We've just seen major volume swings, which makes it difficult
to plan and also is, you know, you're very reactionary.
One week you have no containers,the next week you have more
containers that you can handle. If you had to lay off drivers,
trying to get that capacity backinto your fleet can be
(19:52):
challenging because they went togo get a job somewhere else or
maybe they went into a differentlane over the over the road or
LTL or something. So that retention has been a
challenge because of those swings.
But as you guys know, right, we've been in a freight
recession for the past, you know, 3 1/2 years, maybe longer.
And that downward pressure on rates was exacerbated by the
(20:17):
tariff challenges because, you know, if the importers paying
higher shipping rates over the, you know, just because of
tariffs. They're not able to negotiate
necessarily with the ocean carrier for a cheaper over the
water rate, probably not with their warehouse operator.
Those costs generally fixed. Where they squeeze down is in
the trucking portion and so the truck rate just gets squeezed
(20:40):
further and further where even contracted motor carrier motor
carriers that have contracts with with shippers for years are
hearing back from them and saying can you shave off more
10-15 more bucks? So you have the uncertainty with
the tariffs, the the, the, I guess compounding issues because
(21:03):
of the freight recession and arefrom a rate perspective.
And then you get into the operational side, which in
Drayage and the West Coast, you need an appointment to pick up a
container off the terminal. You need an appointment to
return the empty container back in.
You need an appointment to bringthat export back in.
You need an appointment to pick the empty container off to go
(21:23):
load for the export that needs another appointment to come back
in. So you have this kind of
bottleneck of appointments and the terminals throttle the
appointments depending on their volume levels, depending on the
number of staff that they have, you know, the amount of
longshore labor that they've they've booked for that day.
All of these things can go into how many appointments are
(21:46):
actually available. And one thing that they do by
limiting the number of appointments on a per hour
basis, they effectively can, youknow, what they've been said is
that they can manufacture returntime.
So while I'm servicing less trucks so my turn times look
better, sure, your line is like a mile and a half long to get
into the terminal, but by the time you get in there, you know
(22:07):
you're in and out because it's not congested.
So I think those are probably the biggest operational and rate
challenges that we're facing right now.
Obviously, always AB 5 has been a challenge, mainly because the
state of California is it enforcing it.
And you have a lot of people whoinvested a lot of money, time,
energy and resources to making sure they were in compliance
(22:29):
with AB5. And you know, even the status
says, well, it's just going to get worked out the courts.
So you're waiting to get sued inorder to figure out if you're
actually physically complying ornot.
Had their suit pushed back. CTA had their suit.
So now we need a leather lawsuitto get it's just one thing after
another death. We how much time do we have?
(22:49):
Because I there's like 1000 other you can talk.
About it all day. What?
What are you? What have you seen Bridge?
Please do we need to address some of these challenges?
Well, on the appointment side, interestingly enough, there's
been some technology that's beenapplied to it because one of the
other things that we run into isthe, yeah, the terminals they
report depending on the terminal, it can be consistent.
(23:12):
It's like OK, on at 10:00 on Tuesday, we're going to release
appointments for Thursday and vice versa.
So it's always days ahead of time when appointments get
released. Very rarely do you log in and
say oh I got an available container.
You log in and you can get an appointment that day.
Extremely rare. So you know you have your
containers, the terminals notifyyou of availability.
(23:35):
Well, not really. You have to go into their
website and check, unless you have API connectivity to inform
you that your container is off the vessel but now available,
meaning you can make an appointment for it, which could
be days after it actually discharges from the vessel,
right? So you get notified.
OK, well, or you find out that your container is available, you
(23:57):
go into the appointment systems and you're trying to make an
appointment. Now I can't get an appointment.
I can't get an appointment for four days.
Free time is clocking against that container.
In California, it is illegal to do that for the ocean carry.
The Marine terminal cannot consume free time if there's no
(24:17):
appointments. I can tell you when I've
confronted reterals about that and said you guys can't do this,
they were supposed, they were supposed to be was call the cops
if we're doing something wrong, right?
So it's a challenging dynamic. So one thing that Fleets have
done is they're utilizing software that more or less uses
either direct API connectivity into the terminal's website or
(24:40):
they provide their credentials for a bot to go in once it's
notified of a, once it has an API connection that the
container is available, you haveall the container numbers in
this appointment system. Then that bot goes in and starts
pigging every 15 minutes to see if an appointment becomes
available. You could set preferences to
(25:01):
say, look, I, I like, you know, Tuesdays and Thursdays at, you
know, 11:00 in the in the morning, you're probably never
going to get an appointment if that's the only parameters you
have. So you can set some pretty wide
parameters and it will search for those appointments.
Now the problem becomes is that while there's responsible users
of that technology that again, it only pings, you know, can
(25:24):
ping less than a human sitting there and hitting the refresh
button, which can have tremendous load on the terminal
operator's software and appointment system.
Instead, it's doing a surgical check to see if there's
appointments available. The flip side of that is that
there are also bots that go in and just gobble up as many
appointments as possible and then end up missing and not
(25:46):
cancelling them. So you have no appointment
availability because sometimes, you know, sometimes when they
release appointments within 15 minutes, they're all gone for
the next several days. And so you have kind of the
responsible use of technology and the not so responsible use
of technology. And we've been working with the
terminal providers and the appointment system providers to
(26:08):
try to figure out a better pathway that is going to provide
for responsible booking of appointments by using
technology. So you're obviously very
passionate about the business and you know all these insurance
and outs. Is it going to be hard to kind
of step away from that? Well, having this, you know,
(26:29):
insider info, I think is going to just serve us all better on
the forum team for having our team members really
understanding these challenges and then being able to talk to
fleets in a way that, hey, look,I get it.
Like, I'm, I sympathize with thestuff that you need to go
through and how is an electric truck going to help with any of
that? Well, maybe there's green lanes
(26:52):
into the terminals. We've got one in LA Long Beach
at the APM terminal here, Pier 400.
They do a pretty good clip of 0 emission vehicles.
And the folks who use the ZEV lanes, obviously they loved the
ZEV lanes. Sure, you get past the queue and
you kind of end up in the terminal with everybody else,
but getting past that queue can can be encouraging.
(27:12):
There's also been talk about appointment exemptions.
Now that means you still have tomake an appointment, but if you
got a ZEV, maybe you get an allocation of X amount of free
appointments for that truck eachmonth or each week or whatever.
And so that if I have an electric vehicle, when I get my
container availability and I go in and they're like, you can't
get an appointment for another four days.
(27:34):
It's like I'm going to use my myZEV card and play that so that I
can get an appointment perhaps the next day.
So. Those are some examples of how
like the ports can incentivize that 0 emission without the
regulations. That's it's, you know, I use the
carrot rather than the stick. Exactly.
And so those are the type of things I think and, you know, an
(27:56):
overall cost savings from operation, which will help drive
that adoption. So yeah, I, I mean, I've a
glutton for punishment, so, you know, I'll miss this stuff a
little bit. But we'll remain to be involved
because the more we know, the better position we'll be to have
those conversations to talk fleets through why the
transition can make sense for their operations.
(28:19):
If it doesn't make sense, there's no reason to try to
convince a fleet if it doesn't work for their job, for their
vocation, it, it does not make sense if they're weight
sensitive electric trucks right now, even hydrogen trucks that
weigh more, maybe not the best issue, right?
If there's a, if there's a rangeconsideration, well, we got to
(28:41):
make sure that they're looking at vehicles that have the type
of range available that's going to service their business.
But if it works, understanding their challenges, I think is
going to go a long way. So we'll continue to do that.
We'll continue to be part of theHarbor Trucking Association,
continue to be part of the California Trucking Association,
the Washington Trucking Association, anywhere we could
go to tell this story, especially to shippers groups
(29:03):
like, you know, the Tia or even the NRF or NIT League, any of
these groups that have members who are looking at 0 emission
equipment. All right.
Well, I think we're out of time.I appreciate.
It's great catching up with you.Thanks for thanks for your time.
Absolutely. Thank you for the time and here
(29:24):
for you at any time to talk drayage electric trucks or you
know the the Las Vegas Raiders, which I have a huge fan of.
So that usually turns people offbut always here to happy to chat
anytime.
This is Deborah Lockridge and today I'm talking to Matt Shrap.
I've interviewed Matt for several times in over the years,
both as CEO of the Harbor Trucking Association and back
years ago even with the California Trucking Association.
But now he's taking on a new role with form Mobility as Chief
(00:21):
Commercial Officer. So, Matt, it's good to talk to
you. It's great to talk to you too.
Do you have always a pleasure and happy to have the
opportunity? So I think let's start a little
(00:43):
bit and talk a little bit about what Form Mobility does.
I know it's electric truck charging infrastructure.
In fact, one of our HDT truck fleet innovators this year, Rudy
Diaz with Height Logistics is apparently a customer.
So Yep, just kind of tell you what, what is it not
formability? What does it do?
Well, I think that you you really probably use the the most
(01:07):
appropriate description, right? They build heavy duty vehicle
charging infrastructure and while the company also offers
what's known as trucks as a service, where you have a low
monthly lease payment for a truck that then charges at the
facility. While that is still part of the
product offerings, the main focus of form has and will
(01:27):
remain to be building infrastructure and providing
solutions for motor carriers whoare looking to make the
transition into battery electricheavy duty class aid or you
know, even in the lighter classes.
But any any truck trucking transportation provider who's
not necessarily wanting to buildthe own infrastructure behind
the fence as it's referred to, but wants to partner with
(01:49):
somebody who's going to maintainthat equipment, is going to have
it staffed, is going to make sure that they are receiving
that high level of service. They go with the group like
forum. And again, that is, that is
their main focus is really building that infrastructure.
So you spend years advocating for truckers at the Harbor
Trucking Association. Drainage truckers, many of whom
(02:10):
are trying have been trying to adapt to electrification.
What made you decide to join formobility?
You know, when I first met the team over at Forum just over
just around four years ago whileI was at the HTAI was
immediately impressed with theirability to understand the
(02:31):
challenges that motor carriers are going through and the sort
of regulatory policy that is really pushing them in a
direction that, you know, many were at the time.
We're kind of going kicking and screaming for lack of a better
way to put it. And the technology was still
evolving. There wasn't a lot of
infrastructure in the ground. You know, they were cost
(02:53):
concerns of the vehicle. There were sort of other larger
legal concerns of whether The Reg was actually enforceable in
the 1st place of subsequently, which we found, you know, with
the waiver being fooled. It's not.
But suffice it to say, all that uncertainty gave fleets a lot of
consternation about moving forward in this transition.
I'd have to say that forum, while they're not alone in this
(03:14):
space, definitely it struck me as a, as a group that was really
focused on really the needs of the fleet operator.
It wasn't being couched in a, you know, we're we're saving the
planet or, you know, out of someguilty drive to kind of
encourage fleets that they need to be that they're part of the
(03:35):
problem and they need to be partof the solution.
It never really was like that. It was always about the rule
needs to be sustainable. The transition needs to be as
sustainable. Fleets need to be able to make
money to survive. And if that doesn't pencil out,
then it's not going to work for them.
And so I was immediately impressed with that perspective
as as not, you know, and not allproviders are created equal,
(03:57):
obviously. And there's some other great
providers out there in this space.
But just in my experience there,I think form was very
forthcoming about where they sawthemselves fitting into this
marketplace. And throughout the years, I got
to know them. They were big supporters of HDA
and of the CTA for that matter. And when the opportunity came up
and a lot of soul searching, youknow, they had approached me and
(04:20):
I, I thought that it was a, it was a good opportunity because
fleets still need help out there.
And I'm going to be able to alsohelp forum really understand
even further and appreciate whattrucking fleets are going
through on a daily basis out there and to continue to
advocate for them for sound sustainable policies on every
level as much as I can. I'll just be wearing a little
(04:41):
bit of a different hat doing it.And you know, again, encouraging
people to try to make decisions that are working, that are going
to work for their business at the end of the day.
Time is money, and that's why Catscale built the Way My Truck
app. Your drivers can complete their
entire way without ever leaving the cab.
They'll see their weights on their mobile device or tablet,
and scale tickets can be automatically emailed to you
(05:03):
with a fleet profile. You can save back office time as
well. No driver reimbursements and
you'll have access to report datafindoutmore@waymytruck.com.
So I mentioned it a bit earlier about it's an interesting time
(05:24):
to be in this space, I think with all the back and forth
about emissions regulations withthe Trump administration's EPA
and California and can, is it legal to regulate this?
Is it not? Are we going to regulate
greenhouse gas emissions? What are your thoughts there?
What? How is this going to possibly
affect the transition to 0 emission vehicles?
(05:46):
It's exciting. You know, on the one hand, Deb,
you know, I've been doing this in the air quality regulatory
space for, you know, 20 years and never would I have thought
that there would be an environment that we're existing
in with so much pushback on ARB rules.
For those of us in California have been dealing with the Air
Resources Board, the regulatory regime of, of the ARB for, you
(06:08):
know, 2 decades now that we havenever really seen this level of
pushback as I had mentioned. And so it's interesting to watch
this happen from a public policystandpoint.
It's unprecedented on many levels, but I think it's clear
that California has been and will remain committed to the
(06:30):
transition. They have a lot of their own
money that they're able to use for incentives.
Even on the utility side, there's incentives available.
On the fuel side, there's incentives available.
Really right now we're we're in a place where the market is
truly going to have to drive this transition.
If the truck has a positive TCO,if it works better for the fleet
(06:52):
operator, if they are able to operate more efficiently,
they're going to naturally adoptit.
You don't need a regulation to get people to get into
technology that's going to save them money at the end of the
day. It's just getting over those
humps and I think dispelling a lot of the rumors and myths
that, you know, California doesn't have the ability to
regulate the transportation industry on one level or
(07:15):
another. Even if it's looking at more
stringent diesel rules to drive people out of that older
equipment and into newer equipment and quite possibly
then into the 0 emissions. And for our sake, battery
electric of course is preferred.But to move them in that
direction, there are other things that they can do that is
that are still at their disposal.
(07:35):
So those local levers combined with the incentive money that's
out there, I still think that there's a good opportunity.
And regardless of what happens in on, in, on the federal level
in DC is not going to change California's mind about the
overall direction they want to go.
And sometimes what happens in federal, you know, emboldens
California to even go further right, to stake their claim in
(07:59):
the Republic of California, as we like to call it, right?
That they're going to work even harder to make sure that they're
going to try to drive this transition by by all means
necessary. And hopefully listen to the
folks who are engaged in this ona daily basis with a little bit
more open mind and understandingto try to get to the place that
they want to go. Yeah, it definitely seems like
(08:19):
we're going to do this one way or another.
These were regulations we can't do.
We will find other ways to do it.
One of the big concerns has beenamong fleets about that TCO,
about that affordability, how, you know, making it actually
(08:40):
something they want to do for their business.
You know, where's that? Are we getting any better with
that? What's the situation?
You know, technology's evolving,right?
I've never liked the analogy of,you know, the iPhone and how far
the iPhones come in that amount of time.
But the more that I've learned about this transition over the
(09:03):
past several years and really trying to internalize these
challenges because not only werewe advocating for the drayage
community and to make sure that,you know, operationally this
made sense, but also from the stance of trying to dispel a lot
of the myths that were out there, even amongst my
membership. And cost is one of the most
challenging things. Before, you know, it was, well,
(09:26):
there's not enough infrastructure.
So the truck's really not the hardest part because they could
build the trucks, They've been building them in Europe.
We have new OEMs moving into thespace.
The trucks aren't necessarily the biggest issue was the
infrastructure. Now that the infrastructure is
coming online, we have an opportunity to look back and
say, OK, now we need to address the challenges with the truck,
(09:46):
which is cost, weight and range.There's more models coming in
and you know, the Tesla Semi is a, is a real thing.
I think that folks back in 2017 there was a lot of high
expectations and you know put people put deposits down, they
were waiting on this vehicle to show up.
And you know, it's taken a little bit of time to get to
(10:07):
this point, but they are on the verge of of being able to
deliver this equipment. And from what we've seen so far,
it has a much greater range thansome of the existing traditional
OEMs that are in this space and a cost that while we don't know
the exact cost, but it's significantly less than some of
the other OEMs that are in the marketplace.
And so when those dynamics startto change, you start having a
(10:29):
vehicle that has a base cost that's close to what a new
diesel is going to, to rent, to run.
I mean, new diesels these days are still over $220,000 out the
door, depending on how it's spec, especially, you know, with
FET and, and sales tax. And while those also apply to
the electric side, the thought is, and again, I was skeptical,
(10:53):
but you're going to see maintenance savings because
they're just less moving parts, right?
And depending on when you're charging and how you're managing
your fuel usage, you can see a cheaper fuel usage rate when
compared to diesel, especially as fuel taxes are continually
increasing. You have the challenges in
California, obviously with some of the refineries leaving,
(11:14):
whether or not we need to start importing more refined fuel,
it's just going to continue to add to the cost.
You have this question of now whether or not, you know, after
treatment devices are even goingto be able to, I guess be
reflashed to not have this derating that's happening, which
is also again, unprecedented. The latest thing you know
(11:35):
there's. Yeah, right.
Exactly. There's a lot of things going on
right now, but you know, the thetechnology has evolved to a
point of when you have OEMs, major OEMs investing hundreds of
millions of dollars in assembly lines, you know, they're
serious. And I will say Tesla is very
serious. And they aren't just hauling,
you know, potato chips and emptysoda cans like folks have been
(11:56):
trying to allege for the past, you know, eight years.
They've been doing a lot of R&D.And so when that truck enters
the marketplace, I really think that it's going to be a game
changer. It is going to provide an
opportunity to bring down that overall TCO that's going to get
much closer, if not beat diesel.And then you have on top of
that, the other kind of general incentives from customers.
(12:18):
We're looking for fleets who aremoving equipment with 0 emission
platforms. You have the clean truck fee in
the Ports Valley and Long Beach.So there are some other, you
know, non monetary incentives essentially that may exist for
fleets to move into. This was just going to help help
pencil it out. So the technological evolution
is true, it's real. And I think we're going to start
(12:39):
seeing the fruits of that here very soon.
While, yes, incentives aren't going to last forever and we
need to get those overall truck prices to come down, it's still
helping those folks, you know, to try to get over that adage
of, you know, pioneers get shot,settlers get rich, right?
That we've seen a lot of people make that first step into this
equipment and are finding that it's, it's, it's better than
(13:03):
they had anticipated. You know, I've been complaining
about the lack of infrastructurefor so long that now finally I'm
in an opportunity where I get tohelp do something about it.
And ideally, as we get that moreinfrastructure online, as more
trucks come into the marketplace, more and more
people see that there is a positive TCO that you have a
great opportunity to to run a piece of equipment that is not
(13:26):
only got a cool and futuristic, but it's going to be better for
your business. That at the end of the day is
really what will drive this adoption.
So kind of go full circle back to the well, where are we in the
regulatory world, Ken? You don't need a regulation to
get people to adopt this if the technology is going to replace
and work better than the existing technology they're
(13:46):
using today. And as you kind of alluded to,
people are starting to see that as we speak in real time.
So a small dredge carrier you'retalking to and they said I just,
I can't afford it, I can't do this.
What do you tell them? Sure, sure.
We, we, we start asking questions about their
operations, you know, for betteror worse.
And Deb, you've been in truckinglong enough.
(14:07):
Some people don't even know whattheir cost per mile is, right?
And they're just out there hustling load to load, you know,
moving the American economy, something that's very, always
been very important to me as an advocate for the trucking
industry about, you know, I loveour truckers.
I really do the trucking companies and especially the
drivers and when we talk to these small fleets, we're
already up against challenges inCalifornia because it's
(14:29):
difficult to do business here. It's I think that that's not a,
a secret that I'm letting out toeveryone.
Costs are higher, right? It's a little bit of a learning
curve for people to be in to, tostay in business and be
successful, especially in trucking and transportation,
especially in drayage. Now we start asking questions
about, OK, what are your operational costs, right?
(14:50):
What are your inputs that are going into keeping that truck on
the road every single day? And as we start drilling down,
we see that, you know, it can show them that.
When do you include incentives, especially when you include
incentives that you're seeing a more positive return then you
would if you were to be staying in that diesel?
Now the one hurdle that we do run into is like, well, I don't
(15:13):
have a truck payment right now, right?
I'm going to get into this electric truck and sure, it's
cheaper and maybe cheaper than Icould get a new diesel financed
for, but I'm not running new trucks to begin with and I don't
have a truck payment. That is the harder part and
where more incentives like looking at the clean truck fee,
if that's going to be a motivating factor for shippers
(15:35):
to really seek out those motor carriers who are running 0
emission equipment. Because if they get more volume
and they get more containers that they're moving and they're
able to service them, they don'tnecessarily need a higher rate
for that movement. The initial cost of entries
seems is a little bit higher. But once you start getting into
it and running the truck and becoming used to it again, as
(15:57):
you had heard, you know, people are experiencing positive TCO
better than they would if they were to be burning diesel.
And so it takes somebody with a little bit of intestinal
fortitude to take that first step.
But once that starts happening and once all their friends start
running the equipment, they're usually the best.
No one wants to be that very first person right in the small
(16:17):
fleet world, but they're coming.And I'll tell you, with the
Tesla truck, I really feel like this is going to be something
that folks are going to see a lot more widespread adoption of
because of technology. It works.
And if it doesn't, then you know, we'll find out.
But I mean, from what we've seen, it hurts so far.
It's, it is, it is real and it'sgoing to be very disruptive to
(16:39):
the industry if it if it, if it delivers and, and is deployed
and the numbers that Tesla's talking about.
I think that there is a lot of skepticism about the Tesla
because it was just every time you turned around, it's like,
yeah, it's going to be next year.
Oh, well, now it's going to be two years.
It's going to be and it just delay after delay after delay.
I'm with you. I was one of those people for
(17:01):
sure, without a doubt. And I think we went and toured
their, you know, their factory that they're building to, to
build this Tesla Semi. And it is impressive.
Like I can tell you they are serious about this.
And you know, all this time, youknow, kind of the question was
like, what have you guys been doing for the past eight years
(17:22):
that everyone's been waiting on?And, you know, they've been
doing a lot of R&D and refining the design of the vehicle to
maximize aerodynamics, to maximize performance, to ensure
reliability. There's a lot of things that
were very positive to the point where I was, you know, in that
camp. And I think a lot of people
were. And I will say that I was
(17:42):
extremely impressed about how far that they've come.
And you know, while this isn't all about Tesla only, there are
other OEMs that have very solid products out there.
I think that what it'll help with is when it comes into the
marketplace, if we see it at that lower price point and then
more and more people start operating it, they're going to
(18:02):
see that battery electric heavy duty vehicles can work.
And I've never said, and neithernone of none of my colleagues
have said either that the technology doesn't work.
It can do the job. It's got the torque, it has the
towing capacity, you know, the range.
There's some, there's some need for better range, right?
(18:23):
These are faster charging times,but those things are right on
the horizon, you know, with the MCS, with MW charging standard,
with battery chemistry technology evolving.
I think we'll we're continue to see these costs go down.
Maybe not in as fast as the air resources board would have liked
it back during the ACF development, but they are headed
(18:44):
in the right direction. So we have those conversations
with those small fleets is really trying to show them, you
know, the pathway to understanding their own costs
and how a battery electric vehicle can help offset those
increased costs of operating internal combustion and why it
potentially is going to be a better pathway for them in their
business. So what?
Are some of the other issues that trade truckers have been
(19:07):
dealing with recently since you're just coming off of your
HTA leadership? Oh my gosh.
The list is long and varied. Deb, I'll tell you this business
is drayage is not for the faint of heart.
That was the very first thing, right?
We've seen some consolidations. We've seen some folks just
straight up go out of business and the challenges that they've
(19:30):
been dealing with. A lot of a lot of the stuff
lately is stemming from the uncertainty around the tariffs.
We've just seen major volume swings, which makes it difficult
to plan and also is, you know, you're very reactionary.
One week you have no containers,the next week you have more
containers that you can handle. If you had to lay off drivers,
trying to get that capacity backinto your fleet can be
(19:52):
challenging because they went togo get a job somewhere else or
maybe they went into a differentlane over the over the road or
LTL or something. So that retention has been a
challenge because of those swings.
But as you guys know, right, we've been in a freight
recession for the past, you know, 3 1/2 years, maybe longer.
And that downward pressure on rates was exacerbated by the
(20:17):
tariff challenges because, you know, if the importers paying
higher shipping rates over the, you know, just because of
tariffs. They're not able to negotiate
necessarily with the ocean carrier for a cheaper over the
water rate, probably not with their warehouse operator.
Those costs generally fixed. Where they squeeze down is in
the trucking portion and so the truck rate just gets squeezed
(20:40):
further and further where even contracted motor carrier motor
carriers that have contracts with with shippers for years are
hearing back from them and saying can you shave off more
10-15 more bucks? So you have the uncertainty with
the tariffs, the the, the, I guess compounding issues because
(21:03):
of the freight recession and arefrom a rate perspective.
And then you get into the operational side, which in
Drayage and the West Coast, you need an appointment to pick up a
container off the terminal. You need an appointment to
return the empty container back in.
You need an appointment to bringthat export back in.
You need an appointment to pick the empty container off to go
(21:23):
load for the export that needs another appointment to come back
in. So you have this kind of
bottleneck of appointments and the terminals throttle the
appointments depending on their volume levels, depending on the
number of staff that they have, you know, the amount of
longshore labor that they've they've booked for that day.
All of these things can go into how many appointments are
(21:46):
actually available. And one thing that they do by
limiting the number of appointments on a per hour
basis, they effectively can, youknow, what they've been said is
that they can manufacture returntime.
So while I'm servicing less trucks so my turn times look
better, sure, your line is like a mile and a half long to get
into the terminal, but by the time you get in there, you know
(22:07):
you're in and out because it's not congested.
So I think those are probably the biggest operational and rate
challenges that we're facing right now.
Obviously, always AB 5 has been a challenge, mainly because the
state of California is it enforcing it.
And you have a lot of people whoinvested a lot of money, time,
energy and resources to making sure they were in compliance
(22:29):
with AB5. And you know, even the status
says, well, it's just going to get worked out the courts.
So you're waiting to get sued inorder to figure out if you're
actually physically complying ornot.
Had their suit pushed back. CTA had their suit.
So now we need a leather lawsuitto get it's just one thing after
another death. We how much time do we have?
(22:49):
Because I there's like 1000 other you can talk.
About it all day. What?
What are you? What have you seen Bridge?
Please do we need to address some of these challenges?
Well, on the appointment side, interestingly enough, there's
been some technology that's beenapplied to it because one of the
other things that we run into isthe, yeah, the terminals they
report depending on the terminal, it can be consistent.
(23:12):
It's like OK, on at 10:00 on Tuesday, we're going to release
appointments for Thursday and vice versa.
So it's always days ahead of time when appointments get
released. Very rarely do you log in and
say oh I got an available container.
You log in and you can get an appointment that day.
Extremely rare. So you know you have your
containers, the terminals notifyyou of availability.
(23:35):
Well, not really. You have to go into their
website and check, unless you have API connectivity to inform
you that your container is off the vessel but now available,
meaning you can make an appointment for it, which could
be days after it actually discharges from the vessel,
right? So you get notified.
OK, well, or you find out that your container is available, you
(23:57):
go into the appointment systems and you're trying to make an
appointment. Now I can't get an appointment.
I can't get an appointment for four days.
Free time is clocking against that container.
In California, it is illegal to do that for the ocean carry.
The Marine terminal cannot consume free time if there's no
(24:17):
appointments. I can tell you when I've
confronted reterals about that and said you guys can't do this,
they were supposed, they were supposed to be was call the cops
if we're doing something wrong, right?
So it's a challenging dynamic. So one thing that Fleets have
done is they're utilizing software that more or less uses
either direct API connectivity into the terminal's website or
(24:40):
they provide their credentials for a bot to go in once it's
notified of a, once it has an API connection that the
container is available, you haveall the container numbers in
this appointment system. Then that bot goes in and starts
pigging every 15 minutes to see if an appointment becomes
available. You could set preferences to
(25:01):
say, look, I, I like, you know, Tuesdays and Thursdays at, you
know, 11:00 in the in the morning, you're probably never
going to get an appointment if that's the only parameters you
have. So you can set some pretty wide
parameters and it will search for those appointments.
Now the problem becomes is that while there's responsible users
of that technology that again, it only pings, you know, can
(25:24):
ping less than a human sitting there and hitting the refresh
button, which can have tremendous load on the terminal
operator's software and appointment system.
Instead, it's doing a surgical check to see if there's
appointments available. The flip side of that is that
there are also bots that go in and just gobble up as many
appointments as possible and then end up missing and not
(25:46):
cancelling them. So you have no appointment
availability because sometimes, you know, sometimes when they
release appointments within 15 minutes, they're all gone for
the next several days. And so you have kind of the
responsible use of technology and the not so responsible use
of technology. And we've been working with the
terminal providers and the appointment system providers to
(26:08):
try to figure out a better pathway that is going to provide
for responsible booking of appointments by using
technology. So you're obviously very
passionate about the business and you know all these insurance
and outs. Is it going to be hard to kind
of step away from that? Well, having this, you know,
(26:29):
insider info, I think is going to just serve us all better on
the forum team for having our team members really
understanding these challenges and then being able to talk to
fleets in a way that, hey, look,I get it.
Like, I'm, I sympathize with thestuff that you need to go
through and how is an electric truck going to help with any of
that? Well, maybe there's green lanes
(26:52):
into the terminals. We've got one in LA Long Beach
at the APM terminal here, Pier 400.
They do a pretty good clip of 0 emission vehicles.
And the folks who use the ZEV lanes, obviously they loved the
ZEV lanes. Sure, you get past the queue and
you kind of end up in the terminal with everybody else,
but getting past that queue can can be encouraging.
(27:12):
There's also been talk about appointment exemptions.
Now that means you still have tomake an appointment, but if you
got a ZEV, maybe you get an allocation of X amount of free
appointments for that truck eachmonth or each week or whatever.
And so that if I have an electric vehicle, when I get my
container availability and I go in and they're like, you can't
get an appointment for another four days.
(27:34):
It's like I'm going to use my myZEV card and play that so that I
can get an appointment perhaps the next day.
So. Those are some examples of how
like the ports can incentivize that 0 emission without the
regulations. That's it's, you know, I use the
carrot rather than the stick. Exactly.
And so those are the type of things I think and, you know, an
(27:56):
overall cost savings from operation, which will help drive
that adoption. So yeah, I, I mean, I've a
glutton for punishment, so, you know, I'll miss this stuff a
little bit. But we'll remain to be involved
because the more we know, the better position we'll be to have
those conversations to talk fleets through why the
transition can make sense for their operations.
(28:19):
If it doesn't make sense, there's no reason to try to
convince a fleet if it doesn't work for their job, for their
vocation, it, it does not make sense if they're weight
sensitive electric trucks right now, even hydrogen trucks that
weigh more, maybe not the best issue, right?
If there's a, if there's a rangeconsideration, well, we got to
(28:41):
make sure that they're looking at vehicles that have the type
of range available that's going to service their business.
But if it works, understanding their challenges, I think is
going to go a long way. So we'll continue to do that.
We'll continue to be part of theHarbor Trucking Association,
continue to be part of the California Trucking Association,
the Washington Trucking Association, anywhere we could
go to tell this story, especially to shippers groups
(29:03):
like, you know, the Tia or even the NRF or NIT League, any of
these groups that have members who are looking at 0 emission
equipment. All right.
Well, I think we're out of time.I appreciate.
It's great catching up with you.Thanks for thanks for your time.
Absolutely. Thank you for the time and here
(29:24):
for you at any time to talk drayage electric trucks or you
know the the Las Vegas Raiders, which I have a huge fan of.
So that usually turns people offbut always here to happy to chat
anytime.
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