April 28, 2025 • 44 mins
In this deeply insightful conversation we welcome Dr. Jack Hinman, founder of Engage Transitions, and Eric Fawson, Clinical Director at Elements Wilderness Treatment Program, to explore how our earliest relationships create templates that shape our connections throughout life. Both experts bring unique perspectives from their extensive work with young adults and families navigating mental health challenges in therapeutic settings.
For parents struggling to navigate relationships with young adults, the experts offer a practical framework: love unconditionally, support positive growth, refuse to enable destructive patterns, and—perhaps most challenging—don't treat young adults as fragile. As Jack explains, "Your attachment style is not locked in. It can continue to grow and change," offering hope that we can all move toward more secure attachment through self-awareness and practice.
Whether you're seeking to understand your own relationship patterns, parent more effectively, or simply connect more authentically with others, this episode offers profound insights into the invisible forces that shape our most important connections.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello folks, thanks for joining us today on Head
Inside Mental Health, featuringconversations about mental
health and substance usetreatment, with experts from
across the country sharing theirthoughts and insights on the
world of behavioral health care,broadcasting on WPVM 1037, the
voice of Asheville IndependentCommercial Free Radio.
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host,therapeutic consultant and
behavioral health expert.
(00:21):
I have two guests with me today.
Behavioral health expert.
I have two guests with me today.
We have Dr Jack Hinmanreturning to the show.
Jack is the founder andexecutive director of Engaged
Transitions out there in CedarCity, utah, program, working
with young adults often comingout of residential treatment,
struggling with mental healthchallenges, engaging in the
recovery work to begin living anindependent life.
(00:42):
We have had a greatconversation earlier this year
about attachment styles, whichwas really cool, and we came up
with a great idea and we'll seeif it plays out that way to
invite Eric Fawson, clinicaldirector with elements program
serving adolescents, youngadults and program programming
for neurodiverse teens in atherapeutic experiential outdoor
(01:03):
setting there in Southern Utah.
Eric has been a therapist since2005, first in residential
therapeutic boarding schoolsetting for many years as a
wilderness therapist andclinical director.
Eric is known for his expertiseas a family systems attachment
trauma specialist.
That's a mouthful which goeshand in hand with his work in
mood disorders, substance abuseand other addictive behaviors.
(01:25):
Eric's earliest clinicaltraining focused on the recovery
with the young adult populationand throughout his clinical
career he's been able to stayconnected to the young adult
clinical work either throughdirect care or in a counseling
capacity.
Eric first earned a degree inbehavioral sciences from Utah
Valley University and laterearned his master's degree in
(01:45):
clinical social work fromBrigham Young.
After graduate school, ericanticipated continuing his
education towards an academiccareer and professorship.
However, the outdoor buggrabbed him, as it did many of
us.
After having worked in aresidential setting with the
Utah County Division ofSubstance Abuse and with the
adopted triad, eric focused hisenergies toward being a
(02:07):
therapist and, from his own time, growing up in Hawaii, embraces
the spirit of Ohana, believesthat growing up in the islands
shaped his caring nature andability to connect to his
clients.
Eric was adopted at birth alongwith his younger brother and is
also the parent of an adoptedchild, which he considers one of
his greatest life's blessings.
(02:28):
Uh, eric and Jack, thank youfor joining the show.
Thank you for being willing tocome in to the madness that is
discussing attachment Theory.
Um, we can pretend that we'reon mountain bikes riding up,
riding up the mountain there inUtah and uh, and hit this
philosophical button.
(02:48):
Uh, uh.
I don't know if this wasintentional, but you guys
decided to make Valentine's daythe day that we did this.
We did this recording that mayhave been Jack's.
The kind of guy might thinkabout that.
Ooh, we could do it onValentine's day.
Talk about attachment styles asit relates to intimate
relationships.
I'm like sounds good to me.
Um, I, I personally, am alldone with personal realization.
(03:11):
I don't want to do any moregrowth and development, so I'm
gonna let you guys talk while II leave no oh no oh no, we got
you.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
We got you now, which is so much your style, your
attachment style, todd.
That speaks to your attachmentstyle, and my need to continue
to talk about relationships ismy style, which is such my
attachment style.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
All right, Eric, what's your style?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You've got the offensive story here, yeah my
style is definitely on theanxious attachment style, for
sure, and I'm sitting herethinking, oh, my introduction
was twice as long as jack, sowhat I need to be anxious about?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I got so much going on here jack got the long
introduction first time he wason the first time around we're
gonna give you this one, but, umyou know, I'm gen x, so I have
the anxious avoidant see I justlike if nobody's around, I'm
gonna avoid.
I'm gonna close myself up anddo my own thing.
I'll be fine.
Fine, over here, I can takecare of it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So you know, it's so funny because I, I, just I, I
have five children and myyoungest is 15 and and her and I
are just kind of having someconversations about this
recently, like she, finally, shefinally, I think, had enough
courage to say, dad, I justdon't get you.
And I was like, well, let'stake the wizard of Oz approach.
Do you want to?
Do you want to?
(04:29):
Are you okay if I let youbehind the curtain a little bit?
And she's like sounds scary.
And I said, yeah, it can be,I'll keep it limited.
But and I was able to actuallyindirectly talk about attachment
with her and just you know howsome of my attachment style is
informed by this experience ofbeing an adoptee right, and I
(04:50):
know that's not what the focusis, but I mean it's just, I
think, why I'm sharing that is.
It's just so interesting tojust be aware of how much
attachment informs so much ofthe person that we are, what we
do, how we show up.
Being the clinical director ofWilderness Program, I get the
(05:11):
opportunity to train staff andthe last two weeks I've done
training with them on theconcept of transference and
counter-transference and justself-awareness.
And you cannot have thattraining conversation without
having a conversation aboutattachment, attachment style and
your history, because thatconversation is all about what
(05:31):
you're bringing into theconversation real quick define
for everybody transference andcounter-transference.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I think we're all pretty familiar, but we have an
audience that may not be.
Give us your, give us yourbrief definition of those two
terms.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Sure, super clinical right.
So what I would just say isthat transference and
countertransference can be areally important part of the
therapeutic process.
The transference is what theclient is bringing in and they
are potentially projecting outonto the therapist or the helper
or the staff, and then thetherapist returns the favor
right.
(06:04):
And the countertransference ishow we respond or react to that.
And our response and ourreaction as the helper, the
therapist, is very much rootedin our own attachment styles,
which are informed by ourchildhood.
So it is that interplay of therelationship that's going on and
we have to be really aware ofit.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, the thing Jack just said in the interview we
had, you know, looking at someof the relationship that's going
on and we have to be reallyaware of it.
Well, I think jack just said inthe interview we had, you know,
looking at at some of the dataand some of the other things
that go on in programming isthat some of what made some of
what made um the most differencewas the attachment style of the
therapist and when the work wasgetting accomplished, like the
attachment style of thetherapist actually informed a
(06:46):
lot of what progress was made,as much as any other factor.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
If I remember right, jack, from that conversation,
the anxious attachment styleshows up really well at the
beginning of the process butthey fall off as the
relationship requires moreintimacy, almost, and closeness
and the secure person they'reable to show up strongly for the
entire relationship, yeah wellI think, oh, go ahead jack yeah,
(07:11):
like it's really interestingtoo.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You think about like what kind of people gravitate to
.
The helping, helping kind ofcommunity or helping profession
is typically more preoccupiedpeople, because we're super
interested in relationships, wewant relationship connection,
but but we see poorer outcomeswith people who've got like
insecure or preoccupiedattachment, like they attach
really well, but what happens?
(07:33):
The client picks up on theirneediness, the therapist is
getting too much of their needsin therapy, so the client gets,
is not okay with that and pushesback.
And so it's really fascinatingto look at your outcomes of
secure versus avoidance styletherapists and and the mismatch
of those particular roles.
And secure therapists can kindof or a helper can kind of go
(07:54):
bounce back, can adjust orattach a style of the needs of
the client.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, just to close the loop on the transference
counter-transference.
If the therapist is going inthere to get their needs met,
their emotional needs, that'scounter-transference.
If the therapist is going inthere to get their needs met,
their emotional needs, that'scounter-transference and that's
an unhealthy use of the of thechiron's disease.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right the wounded helper yep the wounded helper.
Yep right yeah they get theirneeds met through providing help
and um that can.
That can lead to some pooroutcomes.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Let's well, and I would.
This is what I said in thetraining with my staff.
When we talk about the woundedhelper, there's not a single one
of us in the room listening tothis podcast or on this podcast.
That didn't come out of ourchildhood unscathed and it's
just a matter of being aware andself-awareness that this is
part of the process doing yourwork, being aware of your
attachment style, but not justyour attachment, but you've done
(08:45):
your work.
Being aware of your attachmentstyle, but not just your
attachment, but you've done yourwork.
That doesn't mean that awounded person can't be a good
helper, a good therapist.
You just have to be reallyself-aware of what's coming up
for you.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, well, and I don't want to, I don't want to
miss this, this littleopportunity that you, you gave
us the door into there, eric,but you, you talked about being
an adoptee into there, eric, butyou, you talked about being an
adoptee, having an adoptee andthe your youngest daughter uh,
youngest child, kind of comingto you like I don't get you um
and you like peeling back thecurtain a little bit.
(09:16):
Um and I in.
We talked about intimacy, butyou know, intimate relationships
are not just with your, your,your, you know in, you know in
your case, your wife or partner.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It's also with your children.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
You know, you've got this, this, this inescapable
intimate relationship with yourchildren my, in my view at least
and all this stuff starts toplay out.
A hundred percent and so youknow you guys are like I know
that we could jump in and wecould talk about programming for
the kids, adolescents and youngadults that you work with in a
(09:51):
program capacity and watchinghow that plays out in the
programming.
Let's get a little vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
And why don't you guys talk about how you know,
your ideas about how it playsout in home life, some of the
ways in which that's come out inyour own life?
I'll be glad to jump in andshare some of my own, but, like
let's, let's what let's, let'sjump in that rabbit hole for a
little bit.
And what are your thoughtsabout all that?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
yeah, jack, do you want to share?
I, I have something Iabsolutely want to share go for
it.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I feel like I'm doing a lot of my anxious attachment
style says you're talking toomuch already.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
You're great.
I want to get to the yeah, gofor it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
I have five children, as Imentioned, and one of my, one of
my kids, is adopted and it'sit's a familial adoption.
So he came through us, throughon my wife's side of my family,
young boy going through thefoster care system and her
brother came to us and was andsaid, hey, you know this, this
(10:55):
young man, this little boy hewas one and a half, I think at
the time needs a home.
Is this something you guys areinterested in?
And it could turn towardsadoption.
And even though I believe I haddone some of my work, all of my
stuff got triggered almostimmediately and I wanted to
please my wife, who was veryopen.
We had gone through, we had twochildren, but we'd also
experienced multiplemiscarriages.
(11:16):
We knew we wanted a largerfamily.
Here's an opportunity.
It was very difficult to say tomy wife and, testing the
attachment and the connection,to say I'm not ready for this, I
need more time, because all ofa sudden, stuff that I thought I
had contained or addressed wasexposed Right.
I'm holding back my tears alittle bit as I think about this
(11:37):
, because it was, it washonestly Todd.
It was such a hard conversationto say no, because I also love
being a parent, but severalmonths later the opportunity
showed up again, and for thesame child same child, same
little boy, yeah, same situation.
Back in foster care, and it wasabout a six month span of time
(12:02):
and in that six months I wasable to do some of my necessary
work.
Not that I thought theopportunity was going to come
again, but I looked at him morelike, hey, your crap just showed
up.
It's time to do work If you'regoing to be an effective
therapist.
Husband, father, you got to bedoing, you got to be looking at
it, and I had.
And then that opportunity andit was like, yep, let's go,
let's go.
(12:22):
And what it was was what I kindof figured out was I knew that
if this little boy landed in ourhome, I was going to fall in
love with him.
And the idea that he could betaken away through the foster
care system because we were onlybeing asked to be foster
parents.
I don't know that my heart wasready for that.
You know, take attachment outof the clinical and let's just
talk about our souls and ourheart.
(12:43):
I don't know that I was readyfor that because that was going
to potentially poke at thatabandonment and abandonment and
rejection wound that I'm alwaysworking on.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
So well and it sounds like you know if we're talking
about projection, transference,counter-transference.
It's almost like you've got achild who's doing this dance to
the foster system and you've gota connection to what that looks
like.
You've got this deep connectionto what being an adoptive child
and what it looks like beforeadoption.
(13:12):
You're showing up with thismutual, either unmet need or
anxiety or fear.
That has happened.
It's like I'm having this,they're probably having this,
and then they just they justbounce off of one another.
Right, even if you're nottogether, you're just.
You have this thing in yourmind that plays out and all of a
(13:33):
sudden, I don't know if I can,I don't know if my heart can
handle that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Exactly.
Wow, and just to fast forwardthe story, 22 years later, just
as we started this podcast, Igot a text from him saying I
love you, dad.
Happy Valentine's day, ohthat's awesome, right, wow.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
It's also really fascinating and now now Eric is
a granddad and his kids aregetting married, and so it's so
fascinating to kind of just likehear Fawcett talk about like
his relationship with his kidsand how attachment plays out.
And now he's seeing his ownchildren have relation, have
intimate relationships withpeople and they're having kids,
and now we've got thismulti-generational attachment
(14:15):
process play out and it's superfascinating to hear him talk
about it well that, you know weget into the.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
You know, I just had uh dr norm tybo on the show.
Oh um, he'd make a great fourthto this one.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I mean, yeah, he was, he was just talking about the
neurobiology of it too.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
You know, and we we kind of spent time focused on,
like you know, one is a, one isa kid, adopted at birth, still
have all these attachment issues.
It's like, well, there's allthis stuff that happens to the
brain and how attachment style.
You know you got an anxiousmother who's worried about all
the things that a mother mightworry about if they're giving
their child up for adoption andthey're given that
(14:55):
neurochemistry to their childand you're in utero, and they're
given that neurochemistry totheir child in utero, and so
they come out into the world andthey still suffer from all the
attachment stuff that goes alongwith being an adopted child,
which so many do.
And that's why they have theirprogram that focuses on not only
children but also families thatare dealing with that struggle
(15:16):
and providing help and support.
Now Eric has a, you know he'sgot.
He's working with neurodiversekids, working with adolescents
and working with the youngadults, more in the residential
treatment side.
Jack, you're working on thetransitional side, not to take
(15:38):
us away from the intimacy piece.
But you know, if I look at thestages of development for an
adult, for child to adult, youngadult and then going into world
of being independent and howthis, how an attachment style,
matures and grows.
And it sounds like you know,eric, your your story about this
is like you know, I thoughtabout this.
All of a sudden, this thing Iput in this quiet little room
(16:00):
and thought it was handled,busted the door open and came
charging into my emotionalcomplex and said hey, wait a
minute, I'm still here.
I got things to say Like how doyou see, you know, maybe if you
want to share how it played outin your life, I could probably
talk about mine a little bit,just having these conversations
(16:21):
with you guys and how do you seeit play out in others?
Like, what does thisdevelopment process look like?
Speaker 3 (16:27):
To me you talk about.
You know, eric and I both workwith young adults and like
typically, 18 and around,probably up to 30 typically, and
he works in an outdoor settingand I work in a transitional
setting.
And so and Eric and I haveactually spoke about this is
that this special developmentaltime of individuation from your
(16:47):
parents like moving on anddeveloping.
Now you're kind of thinking moreabout like romantic partners
and roommates, and it's thisreally special window that kind
of almost reopens again fornotable attachment change or
shifting to occur naturally andorganically from a developmental
sense.
And also, too, you'll see a lotof like, almost like.
(17:10):
Attachment just comes even moreto the forefront when you're
talking about like individuatingfrom your family, because the
parents attachment stuff willcome up in that process.
The young adults attachmentstuff will come up.
So it's a really it's a reallya very awesome opportunity for
the parents to look at theirstuff and the young adult too
and what like and Foss and Italk about this all the time and
(17:30):
in outdoor therapy or like awilderness setting like Erica's
in, creates this really goodcontainer for a lot of
attachment stuff to come up.
You think about safety andsecurity.
You got to like how does awilderness setting create safety
and security for the youngadult to settle in?
And I love how Eric talks abouthis sessions are like can be
(17:52):
two, two and a half hours Likeyou don't.
You have the flow of therelationship that's driving the
force and treatment in anoutdoor setting versus maybe in
(18:13):
an indoor setting where you'reup against the clock and you've
got like things, all thesethings, and so when Boston's out
there, like the process andconversation about these things
and plus outdoor therapy, is agreat opportunity to kind of
step aside from your family oforigin and look at yourself a
little bit separately yeah, soit's this great window to kind
of relook at attachment on adeeper level.
And you got, you got a youngadult there's their intellectual
functioning is coming a littlebit more online.
They've got a history ofrelationships of success or
(18:33):
failures for the draw from thatman.
You can do powerful work withattachment at that time.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
What are you thinking , Fawcett?
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, I think, to simplify it like, what I love
about working in the outdoorsand in the early stages of this
process with young adults andeven with adolescents, is, I
think we're opening up a lot ofthings.
We're not.
We're definitely not closingdoors.
We're creating possibilities.
Lot of things we're not.
We're definitely not closingdoors.
We're creating possibilities.
We're creating awareness andthen sending them off in a way
that hopefully we've plantedsome seeds around attachment and
(19:06):
understanding that forthemselves and helping them in
my mind, you know, rearrangetheir relationship with
attachment.
I think that's really importantand it helps them inform their
relationships differently andeven gives them some hope,
because you know they come injust like what am I doing wrong,
you know?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You don't know what you don't know and I'll throw
this in here because I thinkit's probably an important part
of the conversation with the agegroup that Jack and I work with
the pandemic did, I think, dida number on attachment for a lot
of our young people.
And you know, I believe this isFossen's soapbox for a moment
it really curtailed a couple ofyears of really important
(19:52):
development, developmentalmilestones and moments for them
to try to go out and launch andpractice that and test the world
, and they couldn't because itwas shut down and the online
stuff just didn't compensate forthat.
And so I think we're we'reprobably up against a little bit
of developmental delay when itcomes to the attachment, the
(20:15):
natural progression that weexperienced, that we did the
experience without the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
You might read it in books, but all of a sudden this
person is at least a year off ofthat because of that event,
right.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
And it's really funny because people talk about like,
oh, we had this great timetogether in our pajamas and mom
was, dad were working in theirpajamas and their son was in
their pajamas and we just got sotime of a family.
And the thing about attachmentpeople kind of like
misunderstand about attachmentis the paradox of attachment the
more attached you are, the moreindependent you want to be.
(20:48):
And so people will say, oh gosh, we're so close, we're so close
and yeah, but is that really?
You're close, but you'reinsecurely close.
So the thing about the pandemicit kind of created this
preoccupied, insecure attachmentfor all parties.
So the point because whenyou're attached, securely
attached, you want to launch,you want to be independent.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, and I would say that other family systems
really experienced that part oftime differently.
I live in rural southern Utah.
My town has 1,200 people.
We didn't hardly know there wasa pandemic.
I live in rural rural SouthernUtah.
My town has 1200 people.
We didn't hardly know there wasa pandemic.
We didn't know there was apandemic.
It's like what pandemic, youknow, and dense parts of the
world.
They were closed off and Ithink I really think parents
(21:33):
understandably got really scared, like the pandemic was
differently real for differentfamily systems and had a
different impact on just justtrauma.
And I mean we keep bringing itback to attachment, but I think
it's bigger than attachment aswell, but just how I connect and
interact with the world, Well,you know you're talking about
the identity piece that you'vegot a lot of.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
You've got a lot of folks who hit the pandemic, at
that place where identity wasbeing formed.
So you, you throw in thiscomplicating measure, my
family's experience with thepandemic, and I have some unique
elements.
Not everybody's got theadvantages of having these,
which is, you know, we got a bighouse, we live out in the
country, kids have their ownroom, kids have their own room.
(22:22):
Uh, they have parents who areboth, you know, masters in
education, come from therapeuticbackground, come from human
services work, and so not onlywe're, we're and I work from
home, so I'm available and I'mhere and I can witness what's
going on.
Everything else I had myyoungest was was starting to get
in trouble.
He was starting to get on theradar with teachers, which can
be a bit of a cycle.
I was like, look man, whenyou're on the radar, you stay on
(22:44):
the radar until you're not fora while, don't put yourself in
this box.
But then, all of a sudden, thepandemic hit and they're out of
the actual, the, the physicalview of teachers.
Um, my oldest, who is notunlike me, you know, very
introverted, likes their space,wants to be just like doing
(23:08):
their thing in their space, verysmart, can accomplish
academically without a lot ofsupport or help.
They actually went through thepandemic and it was a benefit to
them.
They experienced, like some,they got some time away, they
got some personal space, theygot our undivided attention.
When there was support aroundacademics, like for my youngest,
(23:30):
that we needed to provide, it'slike, look, you gotta, just
gotta do the thing, man, um, andcame out of that experience
with what they felt like was abreak, um, and I thought that
that was really reallyinteresting, comparative to so
many others who were, you know,didn't have some of those
advantages, didn't have thebenefit of, uh, you know either,
(23:53):
being in a, in a place withlots of land.
We also are outdoor, outdoorpeople.
You know, we come from theoutdoor industry, both my wife
and I and and you know,pandemics like well, all your
activities are shut off.
Well, most of our activitiesare going out in the forest.
So, not a problem, we were ableto go out in the forest, we
didn't get cut off from some ofthose things.
So, um, do you see thatdiversity in the folks that
(24:15):
you're working with?
Like one kid comes in and itwas like, and the folks that
you're working with like one kidcomes in and it was like great,
but you know they're working onstuff.
Or this other kid in, it wasreally impactful because the
family dynamics they have likeis there a diversity in the
folks that you're seeing comingin to your treatment environment
?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (24:30):
jack.
Um, I don't think so, becauseyou it sounds like you had a
positive outcome um, related tothat situation.
I almost kind of conceptualizedit was like you're kind of like
stabilizing the bleeding, likeyour son was kind of starting to
bleed and then like we're goingto come in and stabilize and
the pandemic created astabilization situation for your
(24:52):
family and for your son and ithelped stabilize that.
But I think our situation I'mseeing and maybe Fawcett can
speak to this too is that ourclients were already like we're
struggling with significantanxiety, pretty significantly.
So they were struggling anyway.
So the pandemic came and it waslike a retreat for them.
They kind of.
It was like it was nice forthem at that moment but it
(25:13):
perpetuated that pattern and itincreased their level of anxiety
and social pieces.
So it was relieving, it waslike an avoidance, like those,
those super anxious young adultsor adolescents at the time.
Uh, it was a retreat fordealing with things and it.
But it fed into that pattern.
And then, when it was it'salmost the issues of post
(25:34):
pandemic.
Now we've got the post pandemicand now you're being, now I've
got to be.
I'm older now by a couple ofyears.
I was like 16.
Now I'm 18 or 19 or 20.
And now I'm, and people areexpecting all these things from
me Bingo, yeah, and I've got tobe independent, but my pattern
is more severe.
That's kind of what I see.
I don't know what you think,fawcett.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah that, yeah.
Now what about the parent side?
Like you know we're talkingabout, you know, swinging back
around to the end of the z, yougot, you got parents.
Some of them are not, they'reco-parenting, they're not
together anymore, and you've gotothers that are.
You know, they're in the homeenvironment and they've got
their own attachment style.
What is it that you know whenyou're supporting families,
(26:13):
which both of your programs areheavily involved in supporting
families and being a, you know,parents to the young adult who's
struggling or making thesestrides towards independence, uh
, and getting care that theyneed?
What are you seeing from thefamilies that you know either
took place then, or what changesare they making?
What real is it?
What's the kind of big aha yousee from families as they kind
(26:35):
of engage in doing this work andand supporting their loved one
and and becoming a young adult?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Oh, the big aha.
That's a great question.
Is there one big aha?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
What's the aha right?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I'm going to speak to it from a little bit of a
narcissistic perspective, if youwill.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Is there any other kind?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Exactly I think what we do really well and what
programs like Engage and other,I think, well-qualified young
adult programs do is they'rereally helping young adults and
their parents redefine theirrelationship.
Now, I think we were doing thatbefore the pandemic.
I don't think this is pandemicdependent, but I think we were
(27:16):
doing a really good job ofhelping parents and young adults
create healthy separation.
I think the pandemic increasedthe challenge of that a bit, but
I think we're getting a littlebit more to where it feels like
the tradition that we used toknow, you know, and so I think
if there's an aha moment,there's the idea of being able
(27:39):
to trust that my young adult isgoing to be okay, even in the
challenges, because parents werefreezing and counter
transferring their own anxietyto have a call back onto their
young adult who was younger thanand didn't have the capacity to
manage that and and and.
Now we're we're helping themredefine that and look through
(28:00):
that and, honestly, just kind ofin a way of letting go with
love is and letting go of theirown anxiety, if you will.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, yeah, as much as I can.
What about you, jack?
Like they're almost coming outof with Eric.
They're coming out of this.
It's more of a tree, you know?
Residential treatmentenvironment, yeah, and they, and
then they get to you, um, andit's kind of next day, you know,
next stage, next phase.
Does it look different?
Is it something that's?
(28:28):
What's the difference there?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Oh yeah, Eric, actually Foss, and I talk about
this all the time.
Like and he's laughing.
Yeah, we talk about, like theprocess of like the parent work
in an outdoor therapy programand we talk about the process of
the outdoor work like in atransition program and the
challenges that both have.
And so Eric used the word likefrozen or freezing, and I think
(28:53):
that's the main pattern that himand I we see a lot is paralysis
.
Our parents have paralysiswhere their own anxiety from
their outside world and as aparent, they freeze, they freeze
as parents and they don't knowwhat to do, and so then they get
to an outdoor program and theyget anxiety from from their
outside world and, as a parent,they freeze.
They freeze as parents, theyknow what to do and so.
So then they get to an outdoorprogram and they get coaching.
They can talk about thosepatterns and and and looking at
(29:14):
those patterns, but then whenthey come to a program like
engage, they're right back in it.
They're, they have like theiryoung adult has instant access
to them by texting and callingand family therapy and things
like that too, where now theyhave to lean back into parenting
and a lot of the work is how doyou parent a young adult that
has the notable challenges thatare in a program like ours and a
(29:36):
lot of our families are justfrozen, and so what happens is
that they freeze, they don'thold boundaries and then their
child doesn't trust them becausethey're frozen, and so it's A
helping them build confidenceback into parenting.
And what does parenting looklike for a person who's delayed
developmentally in theirdevelopment?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Right you know, I believe this old model, older
model, still stands, evenpost-pandemic, when I'm trying
to help parents conceptualizetheir relationship with a young
adult and I use these fourthings that kind of help them
guide their relationship.
And number one is I'm going tolove you always, no matter what.
My love for you isunconditional.
(30:18):
Number two is I'm going to doeverything I can to help support
productive, positive movementforward in your life.
Number three is I refuse tosupport negative behavioral
patterns that I believe aredestructive to you.
And number four and this isoftentimes the hardest one for
everybody, todd is I am notgoing to treat you as fragile.
(30:41):
I'm going to believe you arecapable and that's a little bit
of a.
Jedi mind trick for parents.
But you know, I don't thinkit's just pandemic and even
though we brought that in, Ijust think that's kind of a
movement we even saw before.
The pandemic was kids weremaybe being too being too
fragile with them.
(31:01):
Because let's just bring thisback to attach, because parents
attachment style is that theanxious, perhaps anxious
avoidant.
I don't want to feel rejectedor abandoned, I want to be liked
.
It's so important that I thinkthere's a really great
conversation to have if a parentshould be their child's best
(31:22):
friend.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Oh, yeah, yeah, Maybe when they're 40.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Off and on and helping parents move into the
idea of I'm going to, I'm youradvisor, but I'm going to I'm
also an authority in your life,you know, as a way.
And so that I think is a realchallenge of just helping
parents see that their kids areso capable.
And that's one of the reasons Ilove what I do in wilderness
and outdoors is we get thathealthy separation and they get
(31:51):
to go out there and do hardthings in an outdoor setting.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I can do hard things.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I can do hard things.
There you go.
I am not fragile, and sometimesI have to teach clients to go.
Dad, I don't need you to treatme as fragile.
I'm actually capable, you knowadvocate for themselves.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, it's so fascinating how attachment plays
out with that particularprocess.
So, for example, like Erictalks about love and boundaries
love and boundaries like you'reholding love and boundaries at
the same time and and you lookat like secure parents were able
to hold both they have.
They have the confidencethemselves as a parent, they
feel secure in theirrelationship with their child so
(32:30):
they're able to consistentlylove them but also hold
boundaries at the same time, andso it's kind of that poles that
are holding that.
And it's really fascinatingwhere you look at therapists,
you look at helpers, you look atparents.
You look at therapists, youlook at helpers.
You look at parents like atherapist who don't trust their
clients.
Parents who don't trust theirkids typically have preoccupied
(32:51):
attachment style.
So it's so fascinating theinsecurity.
So you basically don't havesecurity yourself.
You project that insecurity onyour clients, you project
insecurity on your kids, and soit's so fascinating with how,
how that ability to do what ericis asking directly links to
your attachment style so you'renot doomed like we eric and I
(33:13):
talk about like you're notdoomed and like and we're doing
our own work, like I think a lotof our friendship is is doing
our own work together and andfiguring ourselves out and and
and that's like how we lean oneach other in our relationship
in that way and where where like, I'm in the space of
preoccupied.
But the thing is I could bepreoccupied but show up secure,
(33:34):
and the more I show up secure,the more I'm going to be secure
and so like it's shifting.
Your attachment style is notlocked in.
It can continue to grow andchange.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
You know you were asking Todd earlier about, like
sharing, being a little bitvulnerable in the space and I
have this kind of related storyhere.
So one of my other daughters,she drives, and every morning
that's the big one, right, theydrive, they drive.
Wintertime here, so everymorning, you know, cars have
frost on it and my garage isfull of stuff.
(34:11):
So she can't park in the garageright now, and I noticed one
morning that she didn't have thecar started to defrost the
windshield and and she was justa few minutes from leaving for
school and I said, hey, how comeyou're not defrosting the
window?
She says, well, I, she's a,she's a quilter, she makes
quilts, beautiful quilts.
And she said I spent all of mymoney on quilting material and I
don't have enough to let thecar run before I go, so I'm
going to have to scrape thewindows the old fashioned way.
(34:33):
Now, not treating her fragilewas like this is awesome, right,
but the attachment part of me,the part that was like my,
that's informed by my adoption,which is fear of abandonment,
and I want my kids to like me,wanted to get the car and go
fill it up with gas for her, butI would have removed a growth
opportunity for her.
(34:54):
That's what I mean by likebeing self-aware and going oh, I
was so happy for her.
And at the same time, I hadthis dichotomy of oh, I want to
go and fill her tank so that shedoesn't have to go scrape a
window of, oh, I want to go andfill her tank so that she
doesn't have to go scrape awindow.
And yet what?
What would I have taken awayfrom her if she would have not
had that opportunity?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
and pretty dang thoughtful when you think about
it.
It's like I don't have enoughgas to let the car run, I'm
gonna have to scrape it, likethat's.
That's.
Yeah, that's putting ittogether right there.
That's pretty cool.
And she didn't come to you andsay, hey, I, I need some gas.
Really interesting that's.
That sounds like a very coolmoment.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
What's that about me?
I start my daughter's car everyevery morning because she's it
waits the last minute gettingready and I want to make sure
all the windows are all likevisible so she drives safely.
What does it say about me thatI do that every morning, am I?
I run out my underwear and mylittle flip-flops, starting her
car out in the driveway.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Well, Jack, we're going to take this offline and
have a little session.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Jack, what you didn't know was this is actually an
intervention, so you walkedright into it.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Well, yeah, I mean.
So.
I live somewhere between thosetwo places, especially with my
youngest.
My oldest was like me and likesuper controlled, organized,
everything like that.
My, my youngest is, could sellyou the shirt off your back.
So he's in, he's thisincredible negotiator, and so
it'd be like.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
So, dad, you know, I need a little gas money yeah
well, so here's the here's theother interesting part of the
conversation taught it theremight be a time let's just bring
this back to Valentine's Day alittle bit in love and
compassion.
There might be a time when itwould be totally appropriate for
me to go and fill her tank withgas.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
As a sense of like, not because she spent all her
money, but simply because, hey,I love you.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I'm your dad, I love you, I just love you, I can do
this for you, I can.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I love you, I'm your dad.
I love you, I just love you.
I can't so.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I will, and that's also a healthy attachment.
You know, and I think thatspeaks to something that's
really important here, which is,I mean, I we can go into
several different rabbit holesoff of this one, but you know
that there, that with all ourmodels and the theoretical
approaches and everything else,sometimes it doesn't you can't
be guaranteed the answer as aparent.
Sometimes you just like,sometimes the right answer is
(37:11):
not scripted, you know,sometimes you just gotta.
Which is why I love those rulesthat you named, like love them
first.
You know, love them first andgive them these opportunities
for growth and development andeverything else.
But believe that they're okay.
That doesn't mean I'm not goingto fill your gas tank.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
You know, because I'm the person who you know helped
raise you, brought you into theworld.
I want to be able to love andsupport you and sometimes I can
share that love in this way orin this way.
You know, riding up Andrew andI, andrew Powell, your executive
director, got to ride up themountain with him and go do a
visit on one of the campsites.
Got to bust a coal for thefirst time in like two decades,
(37:52):
which was fun.
But you know the sense that Igot there in the campsite.
I feel certain, jack, I couldcome to one of your campuses and
find the same thing, which isit's okay, yeah, it's.
You know it's going to be coldtonight and there's these things
to do and we've got, you know,some of the stuff that we've got
(38:12):
to accomplish, includingputting up this tarp, and
somebody was joining the group,but the feel, the energetic feel
of it was one of there'snothing here we can't handle.
There's nothing here you can'thandle.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Right, right, here we can't handle.
There's nothing here you can'thandle.
Right right, just think aboutthat for a minute from a
security standpoint.
Right like, so you're, you're,you're, you're a young person
and you're going to an outdoorprogram.
It's scary, like I don't, Ican't do this, I don't have the
skill set to be able to keepmyself safe.
But you've got this reallyskilled group of like outdoor
staff out there that are goingto keep them safe, going to
(38:53):
actually teach you how to reallyto thrive and be resilient in
this very dynamic environment,and so you walk away developing
the skills of like I can takecare of myself.
So that deep level of securityis such a formative way of
attachment and you think aboutit.
I can be okay, cause it allcomes down to security, like the
(39:14):
basis of relationships.
The base of attachment issecurity, and able to build your
own security is is such apowerful thing in your life and
your relationships.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Well, I had.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I had this young man, uh, I worked with about three
years ago, 18 year old, um,young man with autism one, and,
and he stayed with me for 12weeks out in the woods and, um,
every week he would come to mein therapy and go fossan, I
think I figured it out, I'mready to go home now.
Every week started.
It was beautiful, it was sowonderful, and I loved having
(39:48):
that conversation with him, butthen, finally it, finally it was
time for him to leave.
Right, and he and I weresitting on top of a mountain,
and this, this, this moment,still touched my heart.
I can go back to it, I canrecall it.
I could drive there right nowand he just said to me I don't
know what happened to me outhere, but right now I feel like
I can take on the world, like Ican take on anything.
(40:09):
I'm ready to leave and I'mready to take on whatever it is.
And 12 weeks earlier, his wifewas so messy, he was so scared
that all he was doing was justacting everything out.
And just, you know, he was a,he was a tyrant in his own home,
right.
And his parents and his parentsdidn't know what to do.
And, um, and now he's and andat that point he was like, wow,
(40:31):
something happened.
And I love that part about Idon't know what happened to me
out here.
Some clients do know whathappened to him out there, but
he didn't know.
But he just knew something wasdifferent about myself and I'm
ready to go, I'm ready, I'mreally ready to go now well,
some of that stuff, I think,really is unconscious.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
As you go through transformative kinds of life
experiences, there's thisunconscious things that happen
to you and you don't realizethem until you start walking
through some other phase of yourlife and you're using different
skills and you're approachingthings a different way.
You turn around and you go whoa, something happened.
(41:06):
I'm not exactly sure what it is,but now, for some reason, I
look at life differently and, um, I think for young adults that
don't have, may not have, wordsand might not have the ability
to identify some of the complexthings that are happening in
their life, or or name emotionsand all those other things, of
course it's unconscious that itis, they could see it as it was
(41:26):
happening and I think, as adults, that's the thing that we do,
is that if you're doing yourwork, you're looking back and
you're like, oh, I can identifyall these things that I wasn't
aware of at the time.
And I think that that'sprobably some of the really
beautiful work that you guys aredoing and the programs that you
run.
I'm Eric and Jack, dr JackHinman, I'm.
(41:50):
I can't wait one to get on thismountain bike for real with you
guys going up the hill.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I'm going to bring.
I'm going to bring a motor withmine just because I think I'm
going to need it, and supportivefor riding with you guys, but
it's been so great having you onthe show.
Let's do this again and getdown some more of these rabbit
holes.
I think we can go down, butthis has been Head Inside Mental
Health.
On WPBM 1037, the voice ofAsheville Todd Weatherly, your
host, Dr Jack Hinman and EricFawcett.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Thanks for being on the show.
Bye, I found the illegal life.
I'm used to the legal life inhere.
(42:55):
I found the illegal life inhere.
(43:57):
Thank you, I feel so lonely andlost in here.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Bye, I feel so lonely and lost in here.
I need to find my way home.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
I feel so lonely and lost in here.
I need to find my way home.
Find my way home.
Hello folks, thanks for joining us today on Head
Inside Mental Health, featuringconversations about mental
health and substance usetreatment, with experts from
across the country sharing theirthoughts and insights on the
world of behavioral health care,broadcasting on WPVM 1037, the
voice of Asheville IndependentCommercial Free Radio.
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host,therapeutic consultant and
behavioral health expert.
(00:21):
I have two guests with me today.
Behavioral health expert.
I have two guests with me today.
We have Dr Jack Hinmanreturning to the show.
Jack is the founder andexecutive director of Engaged
Transitions out there in CedarCity, utah, program, working
with young adults often comingout of residential treatment,
struggling with mental healthchallenges, engaging in the
recovery work to begin living anindependent life.
(00:42):
We have had a greatconversation earlier this year
about attachment styles, whichwas really cool, and we came up
with a great idea and we'll seeif it plays out that way to
invite Eric Fawson, clinicaldirector with elements program
serving adolescents, youngadults and program programming
for neurodiverse teens in atherapeutic experiential outdoor
(01:03):
setting there in Southern Utah.
Eric has been a therapist since2005, first in residential
therapeutic boarding schoolsetting for many years as a
wilderness therapist andclinical director.
Eric is known for his expertiseas a family systems attachment
trauma specialist.
That's a mouthful which goeshand in hand with his work in
mood disorders, substance abuseand other addictive behaviors.
(01:25):
Eric's earliest clinicaltraining focused on the recovery
with the young adult populationand throughout his clinical
career he's been able to stayconnected to the young adult
clinical work either throughdirect care or in a counseling
capacity.
Eric first earned a degree inbehavioral sciences from Utah
Valley University and laterearned his master's degree in
(01:45):
clinical social work fromBrigham Young.
After graduate school, ericanticipated continuing his
education towards an academiccareer and professorship.
However, the outdoor buggrabbed him, as it did many of
us.
After having worked in aresidential setting with the
Utah County Division ofSubstance Abuse and with the
adopted triad, eric focused hisenergies toward being a
(02:07):
therapist and, from his own time, growing up in Hawaii, embraces
the spirit of Ohana, believesthat growing up in the islands
shaped his caring nature andability to connect to his
clients.
Eric was adopted at birth alongwith his younger brother and is
also the parent of an adoptedchild, which he considers one of
his greatest life's blessings.
(02:28):
Uh, eric and Jack, thank youfor joining the show.
Thank you for being willing tocome in to the madness that is
discussing attachment Theory.
Um, we can pretend that we'reon mountain bikes riding up,
riding up the mountain there inUtah and uh, and hit this
philosophical button.
(02:48):
Uh, uh.
I don't know if this wasintentional, but you guys
decided to make Valentine's daythe day that we did this.
We did this recording that mayhave been Jack's.
The kind of guy might thinkabout that.
Ooh, we could do it onValentine's day.
Talk about attachment styles asit relates to intimate
relationships.
I'm like sounds good to me.
Um, I, I personally, am alldone with personal realization.
(03:11):
I don't want to do any moregrowth and development, so I'm
gonna let you guys talk while II leave no oh no oh no, we got
you.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
We got you now, which is so much your style, your
attachment style, todd.
That speaks to your attachmentstyle, and my need to continue
to talk about relationships ismy style, which is such my
attachment style.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
All right, Eric, what's your style?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You've got the offensive story here, yeah my
style is definitely on theanxious attachment style, for
sure, and I'm sitting herethinking, oh, my introduction
was twice as long as jack, sowhat I need to be anxious about?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
I got so much going on here jack got the long
introduction first time he wason the first time around we're
gonna give you this one, but, umyou know, I'm gen x, so I have
the anxious avoidant see I justlike if nobody's around, I'm
gonna avoid.
I'm gonna close myself up anddo my own thing.
I'll be fine.
Fine, over here, I can takecare of it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
So you know, it's so funny because I, I, just I, I
have five children and myyoungest is 15 and and her and I
are just kind of having someconversations about this
recently, like she, finally, shefinally, I think, had enough
courage to say, dad, I justdon't get you.
And I was like, well, let'stake the wizard of Oz approach.
Do you want to?
Do you want to?
(04:29):
Are you okay if I let youbehind the curtain a little bit?
And she's like sounds scary.
And I said, yeah, it can be,I'll keep it limited.
But and I was able to actuallyindirectly talk about attachment
with her and just you know howsome of my attachment style is
informed by this experience ofbeing an adoptee right, and I
(04:50):
know that's not what the focusis, but I mean it's just, I
think, why I'm sharing that is.
It's just so interesting tojust be aware of how much
attachment informs so much ofthe person that we are, what we
do, how we show up.
Being the clinical director ofWilderness Program, I get the
(05:11):
opportunity to train staff andthe last two weeks I've done
training with them on theconcept of transference and
counter-transference and justself-awareness.
And you cannot have thattraining conversation without
having a conversation aboutattachment, attachment style and
your history, because thatconversation is all about what
(05:31):
you're bringing into theconversation real quick define
for everybody transference andcounter-transference.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I think we're all pretty familiar, but we have an
audience that may not be.
Give us your, give us yourbrief definition of those two
terms.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Sure, super clinical right.
So what I would just say isthat transference and
countertransference can be areally important part of the
therapeutic process.
The transference is what theclient is bringing in and they
are potentially projecting outonto the therapist or the helper
or the staff, and then thetherapist returns the favor
right.
(06:04):
And the countertransference ishow we respond or react to that.
And our response and ourreaction as the helper, the
therapist, is very much rootedin our own attachment styles,
which are informed by ourchildhood.
So it is that interplay of therelationship that's going on and
we have to be really aware ofit.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, the thing Jack just said in the interview we
had, you know, looking at someof the relationship that's going
on and we have to be reallyaware of it.
Well, I think jack just said inthe interview we had, you know,
looking at at some of the dataand some of the other things
that go on in programming isthat some of what made some of
what made um the most differencewas the attachment style of the
therapist and when the work wasgetting accomplished, like the
attachment style of thetherapist actually informed a
(06:46):
lot of what progress was made,as much as any other factor.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
If I remember right, jack, from that conversation,
the anxious attachment styleshows up really well at the
beginning of the process butthey fall off as the
relationship requires moreintimacy, almost, and closeness
and the secure person they'reable to show up strongly for the
entire relationship, yeah wellI think, oh, go ahead jack yeah,
(07:11):
like it's really interestingtoo.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
You think about like what kind of people gravitate to
.
The helping, helping kind ofcommunity or helping profession
is typically more preoccupiedpeople, because we're super
interested in relationships, wewant relationship connection,
but but we see poorer outcomeswith people who've got like
insecure or preoccupiedattachment, like they attach
really well, but what happens?
(07:33):
The client picks up on theirneediness, the therapist is
getting too much of their needsin therapy, so the client gets,
is not okay with that and pushesback.
And so it's really fascinatingto look at your outcomes of
secure versus avoidance styletherapists and and the mismatch
of those particular roles.
And secure therapists can kindof or a helper can kind of go
(07:54):
bounce back, can adjust orattach a style of the needs of
the client.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, just to close the loop on the transference
counter-transference.
If the therapist is going inthere to get their needs met,
their emotional needs, that'scounter-transference.
If the therapist is going inthere to get their needs met,
their emotional needs, that'scounter-transference and that's
an unhealthy use of the of thechiron's disease.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right the wounded helper yep the wounded helper.
Yep right yeah they get theirneeds met through providing help
and um that can.
That can lead to some pooroutcomes.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Let's well, and I would.
This is what I said in thetraining with my staff.
When we talk about the woundedhelper, there's not a single one
of us in the room listening tothis podcast or on this podcast.
That didn't come out of ourchildhood unscathed and it's
just a matter of being aware andself-awareness that this is
part of the process doing yourwork, being aware of your
attachment style, but not justyour attachment, but you've done
(08:45):
your work.
Being aware of your attachmentstyle, but not just your
attachment, but you've done yourwork.
That doesn't mean that awounded person can't be a good
helper, a good therapist.
You just have to be reallyself-aware of what's coming up
for you.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Yeah, well, and I don't want to, I don't want to
miss this, this littleopportunity that you, you gave
us the door into there, eric,but you, you talked about being
an adoptee into there, eric, butyou, you talked about being an
adoptee, having an adoptee andthe your youngest daughter uh,
youngest child, kind of comingto you like I don't get you um
and you like peeling back thecurtain a little bit.
(09:16):
Um and I in.
We talked about intimacy, butyou know, intimate relationships
are not just with your, your,your, you know in, you know in
your case, your wife or partner.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It's also with your children.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
You know, you've got this, this, this inescapable
intimate relationship with yourchildren my, in my view at least
and all this stuff starts toplay out.
A hundred percent and so youknow you guys are like I know
that we could jump in and wecould talk about programming for
the kids, adolescents and youngadults that you work with in a
(09:51):
program capacity and watchinghow that plays out in the
programming.
Let's get a little vulnerable.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
And why don't you guys talk about how you know,
your ideas about how it playsout in home life, some of the
ways in which that's come out inyour own life?
I'll be glad to jump in andshare some of my own, but, like
let's, let's what let's, let'sjump in that rabbit hole for a
little bit.
And what are your thoughtsabout all that?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
yeah, jack, do you want to share?
I, I have something Iabsolutely want to share go for
it.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I feel like I'm doing a lot of my anxious attachment
style says you're talking toomuch already.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
You're great.
I want to get to the yeah, gofor it.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
I have five children, as Imentioned, and one of my, one of
my kids, is adopted and it'sit's a familial adoption.
So he came through us, throughon my wife's side of my family,
young boy going through thefoster care system and her
brother came to us and was andsaid, hey, you know this, this
(10:55):
young man, this little boy hewas one and a half, I think at
the time needs a home.
Is this something you guys areinterested in?
And it could turn towardsadoption.
And even though I believe I haddone some of my work, all of my
stuff got triggered almostimmediately and I wanted to
please my wife, who was veryopen.
We had gone through, we had twochildren, but we'd also
experienced multiplemiscarriages.
(11:16):
We knew we wanted a largerfamily.
Here's an opportunity.
It was very difficult to say tomy wife and, testing the
attachment and the connection,to say I'm not ready for this, I
need more time, because all ofa sudden, stuff that I thought I
had contained or addressed wasexposed Right.
I'm holding back my tears alittle bit as I think about this
(11:37):
, because it was, it washonestly Todd.
It was such a hard conversationto say no, because I also love
being a parent, but severalmonths later the opportunity
showed up again, and for thesame child same child, same
little boy, yeah, same situation.
Back in foster care, and it wasabout a six month span of time
(12:02):
and in that six months I wasable to do some of my necessary
work.
Not that I thought theopportunity was going to come
again, but I looked at him morelike, hey, your crap just showed
up.
It's time to do work If you'regoing to be an effective
therapist.
Husband, father, you got to bedoing, you got to be looking at
it, and I had.
And then that opportunity andit was like, yep, let's go,
let's go.
(12:22):
And what it was was what I kindof figured out was I knew that
if this little boy landed in ourhome, I was going to fall in
love with him.
And the idea that he could betaken away through the foster
care system because we were onlybeing asked to be foster
parents.
I don't know that my heart wasready for that.
You know, take attachment outof the clinical and let's just
talk about our souls and ourheart.
(12:43):
I don't know that I was readyfor that because that was going
to potentially poke at thatabandonment and abandonment and
rejection wound that I'm alwaysworking on.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
So well and it sounds like you know if we're talking
about projection, transference,counter-transference.
It's almost like you've got achild who's doing this dance to
the foster system and you've gota connection to what that looks
like.
You've got this deep connectionto what being an adoptive child
and what it looks like beforeadoption.
(13:12):
You're showing up with thismutual, either unmet need or
anxiety or fear.
That has happened.
It's like I'm having this,they're probably having this,
and then they just they justbounce off of one another.
Right, even if you're nottogether, you're just.
You have this thing in yourmind that plays out and all of a
(13:33):
sudden, I don't know if I can,I don't know if my heart can
handle that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Exactly.
Wow, and just to fast forwardthe story, 22 years later, just
as we started this podcast, Igot a text from him saying I
love you, dad.
Happy Valentine's day, ohthat's awesome, right, wow.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
It's also really fascinating and now now Eric is
a granddad and his kids aregetting married, and so it's so
fascinating to kind of just likehear Fawcett talk about like
his relationship with his kidsand how attachment plays out.
And now he's seeing his ownchildren have relation, have
intimate relationships withpeople and they're having kids,
and now we've got thismulti-generational attachment
(14:15):
process play out and it's superfascinating to hear him talk
about it well that, you know weget into the.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
You know, I just had uh dr norm tybo on the show.
Oh um, he'd make a great fourthto this one.
You know what?
Speaker 2 (14:30):
I mean, yeah, he was, he was just talking about the
neurobiology of it too.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
You know, and we we kind of spent time focused on,
like you know, one is a, one isa kid, adopted at birth, still
have all these attachment issues.
It's like, well, there's allthis stuff that happens to the
brain and how attachment style.
You know you got an anxiousmother who's worried about all
the things that a mother mightworry about if they're giving
their child up for adoption andthey're given that
(14:55):
neurochemistry to their childand you're in utero, and they're
given that neurochemistry totheir child in utero, and so
they come out into the world andthey still suffer from all the
attachment stuff that goes alongwith being an adopted child,
which so many do.
And that's why they have theirprogram that focuses on not only
children but also families thatare dealing with that struggle
(15:16):
and providing help and support.
Now Eric has a, you know he'sgot.
He's working with neurodiversekids, working with adolescents
and working with the youngadults, more in the residential
treatment side.
Jack, you're working on thetransitional side, not to take
(15:38):
us away from the intimacy piece.
But you know, if I look at thestages of development for an
adult, for child to adult, youngadult and then going into world
of being independent and howthis, how an attachment style,
matures and grows.
And it sounds like you know,eric, your your story about this
is like you know, I thoughtabout this.
All of a sudden, this thing Iput in this quiet little room
(16:00):
and thought it was handled,busted the door open and came
charging into my emotionalcomplex and said hey, wait a
minute, I'm still here.
I got things to say Like how doyou see, you know, maybe if you
want to share how it played outin your life, I could probably
talk about mine a little bit,just having these conversations
(16:21):
with you guys and how do you seeit play out in others?
Like, what does thisdevelopment process look like?
Speaker 3 (16:27):
To me you talk about.
You know, eric and I both workwith young adults and like
typically, 18 and around,probably up to 30 typically, and
he works in an outdoor settingand I work in a transitional
setting.
And so and Eric and I haveactually spoke about this is
that this special developmentaltime of individuation from your
(16:47):
parents like moving on anddeveloping.
Now you're kind of thinking moreabout like romantic partners
and roommates, and it's thisreally special window that kind
of almost reopens again fornotable attachment change or
shifting to occur naturally andorganically from a developmental
sense.
And also, too, you'll see a lotof like, almost like.
(17:10):
Attachment just comes even moreto the forefront when you're
talking about like individuatingfrom your family, because the
parents attachment stuff willcome up in that process.
The young adults attachmentstuff will come up.
So it's a really it's a reallya very awesome opportunity for
the parents to look at theirstuff and the young adult too
and what like and Foss and Italk about this all the time and
(17:30):
in outdoor therapy or like awilderness setting like Erica's
in, creates this really goodcontainer for a lot of
attachment stuff to come up.
You think about safety andsecurity.
You got to like how does awilderness setting create safety
and security for the youngadult to settle in?
And I love how Eric talks abouthis sessions are like can be
(17:52):
two, two and a half hours Likeyou don't.
You have the flow of therelationship that's driving the
force and treatment in anoutdoor setting versus maybe in
(18:13):
an indoor setting where you'reup against the clock and you've
got like things, all thesethings, and so when Boston's out
there, like the process andconversation about these things
and plus outdoor therapy, is agreat opportunity to kind of
step aside from your family oforigin and look at yourself a
little bit separately yeah, soit's this great window to kind
of relook at attachment on adeeper level.
And you got, you got a youngadult there's their intellectual
functioning is coming a littlebit more online.
They've got a history ofrelationships of success or
(18:33):
failures for the draw from thatman.
You can do powerful work withattachment at that time.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
What are you thinking , Fawcett?
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, I think, to simplify it like, what I love
about working in the outdoorsand in the early stages of this
process with young adults andeven with adolescents, is, I
think we're opening up a lot ofthings.
We're not.
We're definitely not closingdoors.
We're creating possibilities.
Lot of things we're not.
We're definitely not closingdoors.
We're creating possibilities.
We're creating awareness andthen sending them off in a way
that hopefully we've plantedsome seeds around attachment and
(19:06):
understanding that forthemselves and helping them in
my mind, you know, rearrangetheir relationship with
attachment.
I think that's really importantand it helps them inform their
relationships differently andeven gives them some hope,
because you know they come injust like what am I doing wrong,
you know?
Speaker 1 (19:27):
you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You don't know what you don't know and I'll throw
this in here because I thinkit's probably an important part
of the conversation with the agegroup that Jack and I work with
the pandemic did, I think, dida number on attachment for a lot
of our young people.
And you know, I believe this isFossen's soapbox for a moment
it really curtailed a couple ofyears of really important
(19:52):
development, developmentalmilestones and moments for them
to try to go out and launch andpractice that and test the world
, and they couldn't because itwas shut down and the online
stuff just didn't compensate forthat.
And so I think we're we'reprobably up against a little bit
of developmental delay when itcomes to the attachment, the
(20:15):
natural progression that weexperienced, that we did the
experience without the pandemic.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
You might read it in books, but all of a sudden this
person is at least a year off ofthat because of that event,
right.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
And it's really funny because people talk about like,
oh, we had this great timetogether in our pajamas and mom
was, dad were working in theirpajamas and their son was in
their pajamas and we just got sotime of a family.
And the thing about attachmentpeople kind of like
misunderstand about attachmentis the paradox of attachment the
more attached you are, the moreindependent you want to be.
(20:48):
And so people will say, oh gosh, we're so close, we're so close
and yeah, but is that really?
You're close, but you'reinsecurely close.
So the thing about the pandemicit kind of created this
preoccupied, insecure attachmentfor all parties.
So the point because whenyou're attached, securely
attached, you want to launch,you want to be independent.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, and I would say that other family systems
really experienced that part oftime differently.
I live in rural southern Utah.
My town has 1,200 people.
We didn't hardly know there wasa pandemic.
I live in rural rural SouthernUtah.
My town has 1200 people.
We didn't hardly know there wasa pandemic.
We didn't know there was apandemic.
It's like what pandemic, youknow, and dense parts of the
world.
They were closed off and Ithink I really think parents
(21:33):
understandably got really scared, like the pandemic was
differently real for differentfamily systems and had a
different impact on just justtrauma.
And I mean we keep bringing itback to attachment, but I think
it's bigger than attachment aswell, but just how I connect and
interact with the world, Well,you know you're talking about
the identity piece that you'vegot a lot of.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
You've got a lot of folks who hit the pandemic, at
that place where identity wasbeing formed.
So you, you throw in thiscomplicating measure, my
family's experience with thepandemic, and I have some unique
elements.
Not everybody's got theadvantages of having these,
which is, you know, we got a bighouse, we live out in the
country, kids have their ownroom, kids have their own room.
(22:22):
Uh, they have parents who areboth, you know, masters in
education, come from therapeuticbackground, come from human
services work, and so not onlywe're, we're and I work from
home, so I'm available and I'mhere and I can witness what's
going on.
Everything else I had myyoungest was was starting to get
in trouble.
He was starting to get on theradar with teachers, which can
be a bit of a cycle.
I was like, look man, whenyou're on the radar, you stay on
(22:44):
the radar until you're not fora while, don't put yourself in
this box.
But then, all of a sudden, thepandemic hit and they're out of
the actual, the, the physicalview of teachers.
Um, my oldest, who is notunlike me, you know, very
introverted, likes their space,wants to be just like doing
(23:08):
their thing in their space, verysmart, can accomplish
academically without a lot ofsupport or help.
They actually went through thepandemic and it was a benefit to
them.
They experienced, like some,they got some time away, they
got some personal space, theygot our undivided attention.
When there was support aroundacademics, like for my youngest,
(23:30):
that we needed to provide, it'slike, look, you gotta, just
gotta do the thing, man, um, andcame out of that experience
with what they felt like was abreak, um, and I thought that
that was really reallyinteresting, comparative to so
many others who were, you know,didn't have some of those
advantages, didn't have thebenefit of, uh, you know either,
(23:53):
being in a, in a place withlots of land.
We also are outdoor, outdoorpeople.
You know, we come from theoutdoor industry, both my wife
and I and and you know,pandemics like well, all your
activities are shut off.
Well, most of our activitiesare going out in the forest.
So, not a problem, we were ableto go out in the forest, we
didn't get cut off from some ofthose things.
So, um, do you see thatdiversity in the folks that
(24:15):
you're working with?
Like one kid comes in and itwas like, and the folks that
you're working with like one kidcomes in and it was like great,
but you know they're working onstuff.
Or this other kid in, it wasreally impactful because the
family dynamics they have likeis there a diversity in the
folks that you're seeing comingin to your treatment environment
?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (24:30):
jack.
Um, I don't think so, becauseyou it sounds like you had a
positive outcome um, related tothat situation.
I almost kind of conceptualizedit was like you're kind of like
stabilizing the bleeding, likeyour son was kind of starting to
bleed and then like we're goingto come in and stabilize and
the pandemic created astabilization situation for your
(24:52):
family and for your son and ithelped stabilize that.
But I think our situation I'mseeing and maybe Fawcett can
speak to this too is that ourclients were already like we're
struggling with significantanxiety, pretty significantly.
So they were struggling anyway.
So the pandemic came and it waslike a retreat for them.
They kind of.
It was like it was nice forthem at that moment but it
(25:13):
perpetuated that pattern and itincreased their level of anxiety
and social pieces.
So it was relieving, it waslike an avoidance, like those,
those super anxious young adultsor adolescents at the time.
Uh, it was a retreat fordealing with things and it.
But it fed into that pattern.
And then, when it was it'salmost the issues of post
(25:34):
pandemic.
Now we've got the post pandemicand now you're being, now I've
got to be.
I'm older now by a couple ofyears.
I was like 16.
Now I'm 18 or 19 or 20.
And now I'm, and people areexpecting all these things from
me Bingo, yeah, and I've got tobe independent, but my pattern
is more severe.
That's kind of what I see.
I don't know what you think,fawcett.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah that, yeah.
Now what about the parent side?
Like you know we're talkingabout, you know, swinging back
around to the end of the z, yougot, you got parents.
Some of them are not, they'reco-parenting, they're not
together anymore, and you've gotothers that are.
You know, they're in the homeenvironment and they've got
their own attachment style.
What is it that you know whenyou're supporting families,
(26:13):
which both of your programs areheavily involved in supporting
families and being a, you know,parents to the young adult who's
struggling or making thesestrides towards independence, uh
, and getting care that theyneed?
What are you seeing from thefamilies that you know either
took place then, or what changesare they making?
What real is it?
What's the kind of big aha yousee from families as they kind
(26:35):
of engage in doing this work andand supporting their loved one
and and becoming a young adult?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Oh, the big aha.
That's a great question.
Is there one big aha?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
What's the aha right?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
I'm going to speak to it from a little bit of a
narcissistic perspective, if youwill.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Is there any other kind?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Exactly I think what we do really well and what
programs like Engage and other,I think, well-qualified young
adult programs do is they'rereally helping young adults and
their parents redefine theirrelationship.
Now, I think we were doing thatbefore the pandemic.
I don't think this is pandemicdependent, but I think we were
(27:16):
doing a really good job ofhelping parents and young adults
create healthy separation.
I think the pandemic increasedthe challenge of that a bit, but
I think we're getting a littlebit more to where it feels like
the tradition that we used toknow, you know, and so I think
if there's an aha moment,there's the idea of being able
(27:39):
to trust that my young adult isgoing to be okay, even in the
challenges, because parents werefreezing and counter
transferring their own anxietyto have a call back onto their
young adult who was younger thanand didn't have the capacity to
manage that and and and.
Now we're we're helping themredefine that and look through
(28:00):
that and, honestly, just kind ofin a way of letting go with
love is and letting go of theirown anxiety, if you will.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah, yeah, as much as I can.
What about you, jack?
Like they're almost coming outof with Eric.
They're coming out of this.
It's more of a tree, you know?
Residential treatmentenvironment, yeah, and they, and
then they get to you, um, andit's kind of next day, you know,
next stage, next phase.
Does it look different?
Is it something that's?
(28:28):
What's the difference there?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Oh yeah, Eric, actually Foss, and I talk about
this all the time.
Like and he's laughing.
Yeah, we talk about, like theprocess of like the parent work
in an outdoor therapy programand we talk about the process of
the outdoor work like in atransition program and the
challenges that both have.
And so Eric used the word likefrozen or freezing, and I think
(28:53):
that's the main pattern that himand I we see a lot is paralysis
.
Our parents have paralysiswhere their own anxiety from
their outside world and as aparent, they freeze, they freeze
as parents and they don't knowwhat to do, and so then they get
to an outdoor program and theyget anxiety from from their
outside world and, as a parent,they freeze.
They freeze as parents, theyknow what to do and so.
So then they get to an outdoorprogram and they get coaching.
They can talk about thosepatterns and and and looking at
(29:14):
those patterns, but then whenthey come to a program like
engage, they're right back in it.
They're, they have like theiryoung adult has instant access
to them by texting and callingand family therapy and things
like that too, where now theyhave to lean back into parenting
and a lot of the work is how doyou parent a young adult that
has the notable challenges thatare in a program like ours and a
(29:36):
lot of our families are justfrozen, and so what happens is
that they freeze, they don'thold boundaries and then their
child doesn't trust them becausethey're frozen, and so it's A
helping them build confidenceback into parenting.
And what does parenting looklike for a person who's delayed
developmentally in theirdevelopment?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Right you know, I believe this old model, older
model, still stands, evenpost-pandemic, when I'm trying
to help parents conceptualizetheir relationship with a young
adult and I use these fourthings that kind of help them
guide their relationship.
And number one is I'm going tolove you always, no matter what.
My love for you isunconditional.
(30:18):
Number two is I'm going to doeverything I can to help support
productive, positive movementforward in your life.
Number three is I refuse tosupport negative behavioral
patterns that I believe aredestructive to you.
And number four and this isoftentimes the hardest one for
everybody, todd is I am notgoing to treat you as fragile.
(30:41):
I'm going to believe you arecapable and that's a little bit
of a.
Jedi mind trick for parents.
But you know, I don't thinkit's just pandemic and even
though we brought that in, Ijust think that's kind of a
movement we even saw before.
The pandemic was kids weremaybe being too being too
fragile with them.
(31:01):
Because let's just bring thisback to attach, because parents
attachment style is that theanxious, perhaps anxious
avoidant.
I don't want to feel rejectedor abandoned, I want to be liked
.
It's so important that I thinkthere's a really great
conversation to have if a parentshould be their child's best
(31:22):
friend.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Oh, yeah, yeah, Maybe when they're 40.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Off and on and helping parents move into the
idea of I'm going to, I'm youradvisor, but I'm going to I'm
also an authority in your life,you know, as a way.
And so that I think is a realchallenge of just helping
parents see that their kids areso capable.
And that's one of the reasons Ilove what I do in wilderness
and outdoors is we get thathealthy separation and they get
(31:51):
to go out there and do hardthings in an outdoor setting.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
I can do hard things.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I can do hard things.
There you go.
I am not fragile, and sometimesI have to teach clients to go.
Dad, I don't need you to treatme as fragile.
I'm actually capable, you knowadvocate for themselves.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, it's so fascinating how attachment plays
out with that particularprocess.
So, for example, like Erictalks about love and boundaries
love and boundaries like you'reholding love and boundaries at
the same time and and you lookat like secure parents were able
to hold both they have.
They have the confidencethemselves as a parent, they
feel secure in theirrelationship with their child so
(32:30):
they're able to consistentlylove them but also hold
boundaries at the same time, andso it's kind of that poles that
are holding that.
And it's really fascinatingwhere you look at therapists,
you look at helpers, you look atparents.
You look at therapists, youlook at helpers.
You look at parents like atherapist who don't trust their
clients.
Parents who don't trust theirkids typically have preoccupied
(32:51):
attachment style.
So it's so fascinating theinsecurity.
So you basically don't havesecurity yourself.
You project that insecurity onyour clients, you project
insecurity on your kids, and soit's so fascinating with how,
how that ability to do what ericis asking directly links to
your attachment style so you'renot doomed like we eric and I
(33:13):
talk about like you're notdoomed and like and we're doing
our own work, like I think a lotof our friendship is is doing
our own work together and andfiguring ourselves out and and
and that's like how we lean oneach other in our relationship
in that way and where where like, I'm in the space of
preoccupied.
But the thing is I could bepreoccupied but show up secure,
(33:34):
and the more I show up secure,the more I'm going to be secure
and so like it's shifting.
Your attachment style is notlocked in.
It can continue to grow andchange.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
You know you were asking Todd earlier about, like
sharing, being a little bitvulnerable in the space and I
have this kind of related storyhere.
So one of my other daughters,she drives, and every morning
that's the big one, right, theydrive, they drive.
Wintertime here, so everymorning, you know, cars have
frost on it and my garage isfull of stuff.
(34:11):
So she can't park in the garageright now, and I noticed one
morning that she didn't have thecar started to defrost the
windshield and and she was justa few minutes from leaving for
school and I said, hey, how comeyou're not defrosting the
window?
She says, well, I, she's a,she's a quilter, she makes
quilts, beautiful quilts.
And she said I spent all of mymoney on quilting material and I
don't have enough to let thecar run before I go, so I'm
going to have to scrape thewindows the old fashioned way.
(34:33):
Now, not treating her fragilewas like this is awesome, right,
but the attachment part of me,the part that was like my,
that's informed by my adoption,which is fear of abandonment,
and I want my kids to like me,wanted to get the car and go
fill it up with gas for her, butI would have removed a growth
opportunity for her.
(34:54):
That's what I mean by likebeing self-aware and going oh, I
was so happy for her.
And at the same time, I hadthis dichotomy of oh, I want to
go and fill her tank so that shedoesn't have to go scrape a
window of, oh, I want to go andfill her tank so that she
doesn't have to go scrape awindow.
And yet what?
What would I have taken awayfrom her if she would have not
had that opportunity?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
and pretty dang thoughtful when you think about
it.
It's like I don't have enoughgas to let the car run, I'm
gonna have to scrape it, likethat's.
That's.
Yeah, that's putting ittogether right there.
That's pretty cool.
And she didn't come to you andsay, hey, I, I need some gas.
Really interesting that's.
That sounds like a very coolmoment.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
What's that about me?
I start my daughter's car everyevery morning because she's it
waits the last minute gettingready and I want to make sure
all the windows are all likevisible so she drives safely.
What does it say about me thatI do that every morning, am I?
I run out my underwear and mylittle flip-flops, starting her
car out in the driveway.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Well, Jack, we're going to take this offline and
have a little session.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Jack, what you didn't know was this is actually an
intervention, so you walkedright into it.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Well, yeah, I mean.
So.
I live somewhere between thosetwo places, especially with my
youngest.
My oldest was like me and likesuper controlled, organized,
everything like that.
My, my youngest is, could sellyou the shirt off your back.
So he's in, he's thisincredible negotiator, and so
it'd be like.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
So, dad, you know, I need a little gas money yeah
well, so here's the here's theother interesting part of the
conversation taught it theremight be a time let's just bring
this back to Valentine's Day alittle bit in love and
compassion.
There might be a time when itwould be totally appropriate for
me to go and fill her tank withgas.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
As a sense of like, not because she spent all her
money, but simply because, hey,I love you.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I'm your dad, I love you, I just love you, I can do
this for you, I can.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
I love you, I'm your dad.
I love you, I just love you.
I can't so.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
I will, and that's also a healthy attachment.
You know, and I think thatspeaks to something that's
really important here, which is,I mean, I we can go into
several different rabbit holesoff of this one, but you know
that there, that with all ourmodels and the theoretical
approaches and everything else,sometimes it doesn't you can't
be guaranteed the answer as aparent.
Sometimes you just like,sometimes the right answer is
(37:11):
not scripted, you know,sometimes you just gotta.
Which is why I love those rulesthat you named, like love them
first.
You know, love them first andgive them these opportunities
for growth and development andeverything else.
But believe that they're okay.
That doesn't mean I'm not goingto fill your gas tank.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
You know, because I'm the person who you know helped
raise you, brought you into theworld.
I want to be able to love andsupport you and sometimes I can
share that love in this way orin this way.
You know, riding up Andrew andI, andrew Powell, your executive
director, got to ride up themountain with him and go do a
visit on one of the campsites.
Got to bust a coal for thefirst time in like two decades,
(37:52):
which was fun.
But you know the sense that Igot there in the campsite.
I feel certain, jack, I couldcome to one of your campuses and
find the same thing, which isit's okay, yeah, it's.
You know it's going to be coldtonight and there's these things
to do and we've got, you know,some of the stuff that we've got
(38:12):
to accomplish, includingputting up this tarp, and
somebody was joining the group,but the feel, the energetic feel
of it was one of there'snothing here we can't handle.
There's nothing here you can'thandle.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Right, right, here we can't handle.
There's nothing here you can'thandle.
Right right, just think aboutthat for a minute from a
security standpoint.
Right like, so you're, you're,you're, you're a young person
and you're going to an outdoorprogram.
It's scary, like I don't, Ican't do this, I don't have the
skill set to be able to keepmyself safe.
But you've got this reallyskilled group of like outdoor
staff out there that are goingto keep them safe, going to
(38:53):
actually teach you how to reallyto thrive and be resilient in
this very dynamic environment,and so you walk away developing
the skills of like I can takecare of myself.
So that deep level of securityis such a formative way of
attachment and you think aboutit.
I can be okay, cause it allcomes down to security, like the
(39:14):
basis of relationships.
The base of attachment issecurity, and able to build your
own security is is such apowerful thing in your life and
your relationships.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Well, I had.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I had this young man, uh, I worked with about three
years ago, 18 year old, um,young man with autism one, and,
and he stayed with me for 12weeks out in the woods and, um,
every week he would come to mein therapy and go fossan, I
think I figured it out, I'mready to go home now.
Every week started.
It was beautiful, it was sowonderful, and I loved having
(39:48):
that conversation with him, butthen, finally it, finally it was
time for him to leave.
Right, and he and I weresitting on top of a mountain,
and this, this, this moment,still touched my heart.
I can go back to it, I canrecall it.
I could drive there right nowand he just said to me I don't
know what happened to me outhere, but right now I feel like
I can take on the world, like Ican take on anything.
(40:09):
I'm ready to leave and I'mready to take on whatever it is.
And 12 weeks earlier, his wifewas so messy, he was so scared
that all he was doing was justacting everything out.
And just, you know, he was a,he was a tyrant in his own home,
right.
And his parents and his parentsdidn't know what to do.
And, um, and now he's and andat that point he was like, wow,
(40:31):
something happened.
And I love that part about Idon't know what happened to me
out here.
Some clients do know whathappened to him out there, but
he didn't know.
But he just knew something wasdifferent about myself and I'm
ready to go, I'm ready, I'mreally ready to go now well,
some of that stuff, I think,really is unconscious.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
As you go through transformative kinds of life
experiences, there's thisunconscious things that happen
to you and you don't realizethem until you start walking
through some other phase of yourlife and you're using different
skills and you're approachingthings a different way.
You turn around and you go whoa, something happened.
(41:06):
I'm not exactly sure what it is,but now, for some reason, I
look at life differently and, um, I think for young adults that
don't have, may not have, wordsand might not have the ability
to identify some of the complexthings that are happening in
their life, or or name emotionsand all those other things, of
course it's unconscious that itis, they could see it as it was
(41:26):
happening and I think, as adults, that's the thing that we do,
is that if you're doing yourwork, you're looking back and
you're like, oh, I can identifyall these things that I wasn't
aware of at the time.
And I think that that'sprobably some of the really
beautiful work that you guys aredoing and the programs that you
run.
I'm Eric and Jack, dr JackHinman, I'm.
(41:50):
I can't wait one to get on thismountain bike for real with you
guys going up the hill.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Let's go.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I'm going to bring.
I'm going to bring a motor withmine just because I think I'm
going to need it, and supportivefor riding with you guys, but
it's been so great having you onthe show.
Let's do this again and getdown some more of these rabbit
holes.
I think we can go down, butthis has been Head Inside Mental
Health.
On WPBM 1037, the voice ofAsheville Todd Weatherly, your
host, Dr Jack Hinman and EricFawcett.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Thanks for being on the show.
Bye, I found the illegal life.
I'm used to the legal life inhere.
(42:55):
I found the illegal life inhere.
(43:57):
Thank you, I feel so lonely andlost in here.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Bye, I feel so lonely and lost in here.
I need to find my way home.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
I feel so lonely and lost in here.
I need to find my way home.
Find my way home.
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