April 6, 2025 • 36 mins
A lawyer-turned-therapist opens up about watching family members struggle through addiction and mental health challenges while navigating her own recovery journey. Heidi Stewart, who works at the Aegis First Episode Psychosis Clinic in Asheville, NC, shares profound insights from both sides of the treatment equation.
Heidi challenges the "tough love" approach that permeates American attitudes toward addiction and mental illness. "The way I deal with it is 'I love you' and I set a boundary," she explains, offering a more effective alternative to cutting ties. This perspective comes from painful personal experience – watching her father battle alcoholism, losing two brothers to substance use disorders, and supporting her adult daughter through ongoing recovery.
The episode highlights a comprehensive care model that wraps psychiatrists, nurses, therapists, peer support specialists, and education/employment experts around each client. For families walking this difficult path, Heidi offers practical guidance on setting loving boundaries, navigating the legal system, and maintaining hope. The message echoes throughout: recovery is possible with the right support.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello folks, thanks for joining us again here on
Head Inside Mental Health,featuring conversations about
mental health and substance usetreatment, with experts from
across the country sharing theirthoughts and insights on the
world of behavioral health care.
Broadcasting on WPVM 1037, thevoice of Asheville Independent
Commercial Free Radio, I am ToddWeatherly, your host,
(00:20):
therapeutic consultant,behavioral health expert, and
with me today on the show issomeone I've known at least a
couple of decades.
I consider her a dear friend.
I have Heidi Stewart.
Heidi Stewart has beendedicated to community service
and supporting diverse otherswith legal and dispute
resolution services, includingcollaborative governmental and
(00:43):
non-governmental organizationalmanagement and development roles
.
In fact, heidi and I met beingcommunity mediators.
Together with an undergraduatedegree from Warren Wilson, our
local college, heidi attended NCCentral University School of
Law for her law degree.
Heidi has served as adjunctprofessor at AB Tech Community
(01:03):
College, a member and pastchapter president of the
Asheville Toastmasters Club ofToastmasters International.
Heidi has served as an arbiterfor the WNC Better Business
Bureau and as past president ofthe 28th Judicial District Bar.
Coordinator of Buncombe County.
Child Care Resource andReferral Assistant, development
Director of the Mediation Center.
Director of the FamilyVisitation Center, providing
(01:24):
safe child exchange andsupervised visitations for
families who have issues withdomestic violence and child
abuse or neglect.
Most recently, heidi earned herMaster's in Social Work from
ETSU and currently works as afamily therapist at the AGIST
First Episode Psychosis Clinicas part of Family Preservation
Services.
One of our local DHHS LMEcontractors still practicing law
(01:47):
in her off time because shedoesn't have any spare time,
that's for sure.
She also became a certifiedpeer support specialist in 2022,
serving as a family peersupport for the past two years
through the Healthy TransitionProgram funded by SAMHSA, the
Substance Abuse and MentalHealth Service Administration.
Heidi, welcome to the show.
I'm glad to finally get you on.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Glad to be here.
Thanks, Todd.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Oh my gosh.
Well, you've done so much andyou are this great resource for
people in our community.
I certainly send people over tothe AGES Center.
I've sent people to you in yourlaw practice because you know
what it means to navigate thelaw system when you're also
someone who's facing recovery orfacing you know legal problems
(02:31):
as a result of a mental healthcondition and you know attorneys
that know their way around thatare sometimes few and far
between and the contracting, allthe stuff that goes into that.
But you also have a prettyprecious and heartwarming in
some places, heart-wrenching inothers personal connection to
recovery and mental healthtreatment and all those things.
(02:51):
And I don't know where you wantto start.
We always seem to have noproblem coming up with things to
talk about and we always end uptalking about mental health, no
matter what One of my otherprojects is getting my license
clinical addiction specialistcertification right now, and
(03:12):
that is a big passion of mine.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So I actually am having the agency, although I
work with the first episodepsychosis clinic with the
families whose children areexperiencing the first episode
of psychosis, or at least withina two-year period for kids,
yeah, but it's also on the heelsprobably in a lot of cases of
substance use, right.
A lot of times, yes, that's whatthey're doing, they're
(03:35):
self-medicating, and so you know.
So that is something that I ampassionate about because I have,
you know, personal experience.
I have lived experience with myfamily.
My father was an alcoholic.
He did recover.
My oldest brother, or my secondto the oldest brother, was a
(03:57):
narcotics addict and he passedaway when he was in his 50s.
My brother that was a littlebit younger than him, was an
alcoholic and he passed like ayear after my other brother.
And then I have been so blessedto have a daughter.
My adult daughter has asubstance use disorder.
(04:19):
Lovely, lovely young woman.
But she fell into that trap.
I try, I tried to warn her.
You know that we have apropensity to do that and you
know we don't know, we, we sayit's a disease, we say it's a
mental illness.
Um, I, I kind of go with gabormate.
(04:39):
It's like what is the pain thatwe're trying to address?
You know, I know when I wasusing my brother, my oldest
brother had gotten killed by hisroommate and I just couldn't
like I couldn't handle it, andthat was back in the day, you
know, when I was living inArizona, close to San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So so, yeah, treatment wasn't as prominent as
it is today as well.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
And I've seen miracles occur Like this
medicated assisted treatment.
I know people, a lot of people,old-timers, who are in NA don't
feel that that is recovery, butin my opinion it's saving lives
and people can work.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, the numbers are pretty clear.
I think that you can fall oneither side of some of that
argument and some of it mightdepend on age and condition and
length of time and recovery andall those pieces, but you're
seeing people return to life,not engage in other substance
use, be able to basically have asuccessful recovery, because
(05:50):
they're on an MAT schedule.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
And I… You're pouring into someone.
Right.
I mean I think your life isyour life right, your life is
your life right and if whatyou're able to do is go back out
in the world and be productiveand everything else, I'm not
sure that it's any of mybusiness or that I really care
how you're pulling it off, solong as you're not hurting
anybody else or causing yourselfimminent harm and danger that
(06:17):
you'll fall off.
But you know MAT, I mean you'vegot, especially you know the
population I see it working withthe most and that is delicate,
is the veteran population.
You got guys that are comingout of you know they're coming
out of environments that werehighly traumatizing first of all
.
Many of them, however, alsohave, you know, these chronic
(06:40):
health conditions where they'vehad some injury and it's caused
them to have arthriticconditions and spines and knees
and you know, multiple places inthe body or something that just
never healed right and hasnever felt right, and these guys
are on.
You know they may have soughtdrugs to try and just relieve
the pain and they findthemselves on an MAT and it's
the thing that can keep themfrom one experiencing very high
(07:05):
levels of pain but two, alsoturning to substances as a way
of seeking for relief, and Idon't know that I would want to
be a person who tried tointerrupt that with somebody.
I don't know what your life'slike.
I think we get reallyjudgmental.
That's the problem.
It's like you don't know whatwalking in that person's shoes
is like.
So before you decide thatyou're going to judge somebody,
(07:27):
think about it for a second.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Exactly that's what I've always tried to tell my
kids.
You know, you don't know what'sgoing on in their life.
They might have just lost theirmother.
You know, the last, the lastyear of my master's program, I
actually did my internship overat the Veterans Restoration
Borders and ran groups, theseeking safety, substance use
(07:53):
groups.
And you know, I think the thingwas is that it was really
important for them.
A lot of them, their familieshad cut ties with them because
they had alcohol use disorderand substance use disorders and
they basically had, you know,cut the relationship with their
child, even though they'readults, I know, but if they
(08:15):
served in the service and they'dbeen through some trauma and
had some kind of a mental healthdisorder usually dual disorder
you know that's not the time andI'm passionate about this whole
thing, about how important itis to have family support you
and let you know that you lovethem no matter what they do.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
It doesn't mean you're going to give them money
to support a habit, but you needto maintain contact.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, yes, and even just you know, like my daughter,
I'll send her a little, youknow, cause I get all these
little daily, today's hope anddaily sayings and things like
that.
No, I'll just, you know, Ithink, oh, that's really, that's
really good.
I think that she'd really enjoythat and I'll just send it to
her with a little heart and sayI love you, just so that she
(09:01):
knows that I'm thinking abouther, you know, because there's
so much blame and shame ateenager, but you know, thinking
that you, you know you effed upand you and you're never going
(09:30):
to be whole again or nobody'sever going to respect you again,
and you know there's somethingwrong with you.
And why?
Why can't you know?
Why can't you do like otherpeople?
Why are you different?
And you just kick yourself inthe ass and negative self-talk.
It's not like like angel anddevil, it's like I'm not worth a
(09:53):
shit.
Yeah, it's just constant,constant, constant.
And when you see somebody, likeover on Lexington Avenue here
in Asheville, and they're justdown and out, you can see from
their body language, you knowthat they've lost everything.
And I just want to ask themwhere's your mom?
Call your mom or you know.
But then they can't do thatbecause their moms in a lot of
(10:17):
instances.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Just as bad off yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
They've judged them and I know I work with families
here and, and you know, havingpsychosis, like you said, it can
be drug induced psychosis.
You know, but they don't.
You know the family doesn'tunderstand that this is just a
mental illness and that they canrecover, recovery is possible.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Sure is.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
And it's like 80 something percent of people who
are experiencing psychosis ordrug addiction.
If they have the support oftheir family members, they can
recover.
They will recover Statistically.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well, and I think they get mixed messages too.
I mean, if you go into ahospital setting, it depends on
the doc that you get.
And you might get some doc thatsays, yeah, well, this is the
way they're going to live, thisis the baseline, don't expect
them to ever have hope or liveindependently or have a job or
do any of those things.
And they get this message andit's hard to come back from and
(11:17):
it's not true and this doctordoesn't know, but they're the
professional, so this familybelieves that that's what it's
going to be right.
Or they hit the street and theymight have a chance of getting
better.
But access to the resources issuper challenging and I've
certainly, like you and I haveworked a little bit together on
folks that are in that position.
They're just trying to findenough resources to help them
(11:39):
grapple with this condition,especially schizophrenia.
I mean you're talking about amajor psychiatric condition.
It's one of the hardest tomanage, it's very difficult to
medicate, it's very difficult tohave a person stay organized.
And then you've got a familythat you know at one point in
time didn't know anything aboutit.
They suddenly have to becomeexperts about it and fortunately
(12:02):
, somebody like you, I can sendpeople to, but you're just a
first step in a long, long roadand I guess one question I have
is what are you seeing on thestreet these days?
We're post-Helene andpost-election and everything
else.
What's coming into you now?
Is it different?
(12:23):
Is the need increased?
What's what's going on downthere?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
It's really been amazing.
I was just talking to tosomeone about that today.
Actually, we used to just getreferrals, like here in
Asheville, you know, we getreferrals maybe once every
couple of weeks, and last weekwe got three, one out of town,
one in Franklin, one in MaconCounty.
(12:50):
So it's not just Asheville, youknow, and it's not just one
every couple of weeks anymore.
This hurricane has pushed a lotof kids I call them kids or
emerging adults also is, I think, the correct terminology 15 to
30 years old has just pushedthem off the scale, and
(13:13):
especially if they're smokingthis high potency marijuana
that's going on.
Right now, it will kick theminto psychosis.
Right now, it will kick theminto psychosis.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And then you know they may have had what's called
prodromal tendencies to becomeschizophrenic, but this
marijuana or a traumatic eventlike a hurricane will kick
someone who has those prodromaltendencies right into psychosis
and that's what's happening.
Well, I was just Dr RockyMurata out of Silver Hill
Hospital in Connecticut, kind ofone of those you know, one of
the most preeminent authoritieson schizophrenia and psychosis,
and runs their unit there.
We were talking about thistopic the amount of the increase
in the rate of admission atpsychiatric hospitals as a
(14:08):
result of the high doses ofmarijuana that are out on the
street today.
You're seeing doubles andtriples in numbers of people
that are coming in.
It's getting to epidemicproportions.
But you're seeing very, verycomplicated conditions walk
through the door as a result ofwhat's available on the street.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And a lot of times, like you're saying, you know
they may go into the mental whatwe have here, sweet and Creek
Mental Health and go through theprogram and get stabilized on
medication and then get referredover to this program.
But that's not going to stopthem from smoking that marijuana
or Delta 9 or whatever they'reusing.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
And as they get out, they're going right back to it.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Exactly.
And so then there's this wholefollow up.
That's why we have this, whythis all the way across the
country actually came up fromAustralia and over from Europe.
Basically, this comprehensivecare model where you have a
psychiatrist, a nurse, a familytherapist, individual therapist,
(15:20):
two peer support specialistsand employment and education
specialists who are all wrappingtheir arms around this person
and you know the peers have aget together, I think twice a
month, like they go bowling orthey just sit around and do
vision boards or whatever youknow, get pizza or whatever.
(15:40):
To learn how to socialize again, because that is one of the
aspects of psychosis is withthis whole self-isolation.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
It throws you off.
You don't know how to go backout and make friends.
They don't.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
They just sit inside and, you know, play games or
stare at their phone or listento voices.
So it's really, really it's agreat program and I'm glad that
we're finally doing somethinglike this, because I don't have
the statistics in front of me,but you know, schizophrenia is a
very, very expensive diseasefor our society.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Well, it's funny to me because you're talking about
this.
You know came from Australiaand came from Europe.
This care model and for me thatlives on the largely lives on
the private pay side.
That's just standard.
Yeah, you know people who canpay for it and have been doing
so for years.
(16:37):
That model plus some is thestandard of care.
That model plus some is thestandard of care.
And for everybody else, whereinsurance is not going to cover
it or Medicaid doesn't knowabout it or they're
investigating some, they'rebringing it from another country
and the level of care livesright here.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
It already lives here .
Yeah, we can do it right now.
We know how to do it already.
Yeah, that's what I was talkingto a mom yesterday doing an
intake, and she said we can'tafford this shot.
This shot costs a thousanddollars every time.
And I was like, well, ourprogram is fully funded.
It's fully funded by the stateand SAMHSA, and then we work
(17:18):
with UNC, chapel Hill, so youknow, so you don't have to pay
$1,000 for your son to get ashot which will last for about a
month.
There are other ones, you know,but I had no idea it was that
expensive.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, it's really expensive.
I mean a lot of these shots,vivitrol shots, or Risperdone or
Abilify.
They're all pretty expensive,mind you, technically you're
buying a month's worth of medsat a time when you get one, but
insurance companies aren'tplaying fair ball when it comes
to coverage.
(17:55):
And then you've got familieswho aren't insured or their
plans are very limited orthey're on Medicaid and you're
not seeing the levels ofcoverage that you need to
provide for care like this.
I mean it's it's a complicatedissue that people end up facing
and the result when people don't, you know I've got a, I've got
somebody right now.
That's that I'm trying to workwith that.
You know they just came out ofa two week stay in the hospital.
(18:18):
They've been in and out of careso often.
You know would yell and getagitated and everything like
that.
So RHA won't touch him anymore.
Won't work with him.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, they do, they do that.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
And you know so.
When he comes out of thehospital after this two weeks
worth of stabilization, wheredoes he go?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Because he also lost his housing placement, you know,
because he tore up the placeand et cetera, et cetera.
So you can guess where he is.
He's homeless.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And he's over there on the corner where I go home to
.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
There's a whole city over there, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Or you know he's holed up in some shed near
somebody's house trying tofigure it out, and you know, in
any of those places, oddlyenough, what you can find is
drugs.
So if you've got a substanceuse problem, you can probably
get your needs met among avariety of other things, and so
that person just dives even moredeeply into this area of living
(19:21):
that exists in our country.
That's very hard to extractsomebody from and treat them for
, and that's what happens.
There's a huge subset of ourpopulation suffers from severe
and persistent mental illness,and I tell you, if you became
homeless and you lived on thestreet for a while, if you
didn't have something in theform of trauma or significant
(19:42):
mental illness or PTSD beforeyou got there, you do now.
I mean to go home with yourfamily.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, that's why I don't understand why we don't
have low barrier shelters around.
You and me both know, withsocial workers and doctors, kind
of like this whole thing, likethis whole wraparound for people
, so that they gain back someself-respect and are able to,
(20:11):
you know, have what I mean,because statistically that
they've shown that this is true.
If you have a home, you know,and you have food, if you have
the basic needs, you know, yougot a chance.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, you can.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
The basic needs, you know you got a chance.
Yeah, you can recover.
But, how can you do it whenyou're I mean, I watch them over
there on the corner where Ilive, down from the mall.
You know they know each other,they are their tribe, they are
their own tribe and they have awhole culture.
You know that they support eachother in Unfortunately it's not
(20:47):
that healthy of a culture, butat least it's their family, you
know well and it's.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And there are lots of people.
If you give them a chance to behoused and have care needs met
and things like that, they theyeither turn it down or they
don't last in it very long.
They return to that communitybecause that's where they feel
connected that's right um, butyou know the.
You know that, uh, haywood road.
We had um reverend brian combson the show not too long ago and
(21:11):
they just opened.
they just opened three new ummental health recovery beds or a
respite beds over there,haywood, which is, I mean, it's
nowhere close to meeting theneeds, but but I see I'm just
glad that they're making theeffort as they always do.
It was, and hopefully somebodycan make access to that.
(21:31):
My person was not willing,unfortunately.
He preferred the street overbeing in a respite bed, and
that's what happens.
That's what you see.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, you don't want to have.
I mean a lot of people, like Isaid, if they have schizophrenia
especially, they self-isolate,they don't want other people up
in their stuff, they don't wantto ask questions.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I know I asked one of our clients the other day so
what's good with you today?
And boy, that was not the rightthing to say.
I was like oh God.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
They've done a thing good with me today.
Let me tell you all the way.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Why would you ask me?
That you know I'm like sorry,I'm going back to my office.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Right?
Well, I tell you, this is aquestion I like to ask folks.
I had Sue Polson on the showtoo, I had Meredith Schweitzer
on the show, and I just get youknow the local band of advocates
around here, of which I includeyou as a founding member, at
(22:37):
the very least, if you were tohave it your way and you were to
lay out a system that causedthis whole, because I think what
we do is we throw a lot ofBand-Aids at things and if
anything, the system's gettingworse, not better, because the
need's growing and thecomplexity is growing.
(22:59):
And if you were going to put asystem in place that addressed
the needs that kind of walkthrough your door and, you know,
walk through the other servicecare doors that are in our
community what would you put inplace?
What would be the answer to you?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know I've often thought there was this prison
model in Indiana, of all places,that they had people in the
prison learning how to doelectrical work and carpentry
work and use the tools and buildthese affordable houses, you
know, kind of like many houseswe have now.
(23:33):
And so they learned.
You know they learned a skill.
They, you know they had housingand they well, I know the
jail's not all that great andgroovy, but you know they had
learned something that theycould take out into the world.
And do you know they had threesquares a day?
They probably had.
(23:53):
I know there are social workersin the prison system too and
mental health workers there.
So now we're getting to thepoint where they're doing
medicated assisted treatment inthe jail system, which is
something that we all, aslawyers, needed for a while.
Well, we talk about that beingthe biggest mental health system
there is in our country.
(24:14):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
So, yeah, something like that where, like I said, a
wraparound program where theylearned skills, life skills, how
to cook, how to clean, you knowall those basic things that for
some reason, once you startusing and get out on the streets
, you know you forget anythingbecause you go into this
(24:39):
mammalian brain and start, youknow, just trying to survive,
and you know get the next hit.
Or you know just trying tosurvive, and you know get the
next hit.
Or you know get the next tokeor whatever, to make you be able
to deal with things.
So, and community is reallyimportant.
I think that's one reason why Iwas attracted to this program,
(24:59):
because you know I'm, I show myparents love and I show the kids
love, whether they show me loveback or not.
You know we have, like on thefirst Tuesday of each month, I
have a family group.
Come in, the parents come inand I have a really nice meal
catered in from Red FiddleViddle and we all sit around and
(25:21):
talk.
Last Tuesday we had a youngwoman out, alabama Stone, who is
a peer support specialist downin Wilmington, appear by Zoom
and talk to the parents aboutwhat it was like to have
psychosis and to recover frompsychosis and you know what her
(25:44):
parents did to support her.
You know, I'll send you.
I've got a podcast of hers ifyou're interested.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I'd love to see it.
She sounds great.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, and you know.
So the parents were askingquestions.
You know she was answering them.
Right now she has an MFA.
Now she's getting her master'sin social work and working for a
recovery agency down a firstepisode psychosis agency and
working as a peer supportspecialist.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So In Wilmington.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
In Wilmington.
Yeah, so it's just, you know,there is hope and that would be
the thing that I would do if Icould, just to have people who
have recovered come back.
You know, I mean she's funky,tell the story.
People who have recovered comeback.
You know, I mean she's funky,she's got like whatever that
stuff is where you gum up yourhair and stuff like dreads.
(26:33):
You know, I mean, she's a cool,she's a cool person, I just
love her and funny as hell.
But you know, that's the kindof thing I would do.
And you know, most people whoare in recovery are highly
intelligent people.
They just haven't figured outhow to deal in the world and
that's something that I think isimportant for them to know that
(26:55):
they're not alone, you know,nor are these parents alone.
Who has substance use disorderor schizophrenia or bipolar or
schizoaffective disorder, allthese things that they've been
diagnosed with?
That I try to tell the parents,Todd, that doesn't.
(27:15):
That's not who they are, that'sjust a diagnosis that's been
attached to them.
They're special, they're highlyintelligent, they're sweet as
pie, you know, I mean, and whatI've seen happening with all of
that wraparound support isamazing.
Like we've got one who's youknow, going to AB Tech.
Where he was, he was comatose.
(27:37):
For the first time I met him,he was in a dark room sitting in
front of a television, thinkinghe was part of a gang, you know
.
And now he's going to be, techand you know, some have finished
their high school diplomas.
And you know, just becausewe're here saying you can do it
and we've done it too.
(27:57):
I dropped out of high school,believe it or not.
When I was a junior in highschool, I dropped out.
That's how I got to NorthCarolina.
My mom was in Scottsdale,arizona, and I was using out in
Scottsdale and I had to get outof it.
So I came to Brevard, northCarolina, where my dad lived,
and you can imagine what aculture shock that was.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I mean, Scottsdale is still a small town, but it is a
pretty big culture shock.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Who are these people?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Well, you know, I did , I graduated from high school.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
After I quit, you know, it's like I was like God
almighty, I was like living,like I said, living in
somebody's closet you know, sorecovery is possible, you know,
I don't know, the Western NorthCarolina pulls you in.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
You've been here ever since.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
You can't go.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah, yeah, you can't remember I tried, I went to
oregon, came back.
Well, yeah, I mean, I think themessage is recovery is possible
, you know what I mean becauseit really is it is and you know
private treatment's great and ifyou can get it, get it, yeah.
But and I tell people, you knowfamilies, specifically, you know
(29:09):
the ones that send you and toother agencies stay on top of it
.
You have to be a person.
The system is not going to comeand get you because it's
overwhelmed.
But if you've gotten yourselfinto the, in front of people who
can help you and in front ofpeople who have services to
provide and you've been givenaccess, get everything you can
(29:31):
out of that system.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Like the other thing about this todd, is there's this
, this rumor about tough loverunning around this country.
You know, like kick their assout.
You know you to do some.
Don't put up with that shit,you know.
And so what I have learned andwhat I communicate to anybody
(29:54):
who will listen to me is youknow, the way I deal with it is
like I love you and you know Iset a boundary.
This I will not have somebodyusing in my house.
You know I love you and it'snot okay.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
It's not okay for you to cuss at me, but I'm always
trying to preface it with I loveyou and you know not, not, you
know, get the hell out of myhouse, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
I love you.
This is what I will support,this is what I won't support.
These are my hard limits.
Clarity is kindness, like wesay.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
You know what I mean and we have a choice because you
know, our kids know us betterthan anybody and they can punch
our buttons and know how to geta reaction.
Well, what happens if you don'treact?
If, like, one of my favoritethings to say is you know you
might be right, I'll think aboutthat and then I'll go in my
bedroom and close the door, youknow?
(30:52):
And then they're like yeah whatis this?
you know, but I feel better.
You know, and I'll think aboutit.
You know, but I'm not going tobe manipulated anymore and
there's a highly, you know, it'sa highly manipulative disease.
Yes, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
You know they say this about depression, not
saying about substance use.
But it's, it's a liar and acheat.
You know, the person is not buttheir condition, if their, if
their condition is speakingthrough them.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, it's not.
It's almost not session.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And that's what they, they always say.
You know, if you how to know ifa drug addict's lying, if their
lips are moving?
You know, and it is.
I've had, you know I've hadsome losses because and it's
been very traumatizing for me asa parent to be violated by
having things taken away, takenfrom my house that were
important.
And you know my father, he puthis house up for bond for my
brother and then he jumped bondand took off, you know, and my
father got to pay the bond onhis house.
So you know it can be reallyhard to keep loving them.
(32:10):
But I think the main thing todo is to know that it's a mental
illness.
They're not doing it on purpose.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, you can't take it personally.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
I mean you can, but that's not healthy.
It's not healthy.
And I will say that.
You know one of the things thatI end up helping families a lot
with, and you know about thisas well and even in communities,
if there's not even a strongdrug court or some other process
, a lot of times if you've gotsomebody who's helping you,
somebody like you or me, you canget, you know, well, I'll put
(32:45):
bond up for them.
Don don't do that.
Get the court to divert them totreatment.
You can either be in jail oryou can be in treatment.
Which one would you rather get?
Which one would you rather doand work a diversion agreement
out with the court?
And you know treatment is timeserved and things like that.
It can be a really effectiveway to get somebody the care
(33:09):
that they need, especially whenit's somebody who's unwilling to
get that care without thatholding over their head.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, that's a good point.
And you know, I don't know ifyou're familiar with the word
anosognosia, I am.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's one of my favorite terms these days.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Someone does not realize that they are mentally
ill, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I'm willing to accept it.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yes, um, and so you know.
So that is something that, yeah, I know you may not want to do
that, but you know, if you wantto come back and live in my
house, you know this is the deal.
This is what needs to happen,right, and I understand that you
don't believe that there'sanything wrong with you, but
(33:53):
this is what we're going to do.
If you want to live in my home,and then if they say I don't
want to live in your home andthey go out on the street, and
then they come back knocking onyour front door saying, oh my
God, there are people throwingup out there.
You don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Can I come home?
Well, let's talk about uh.
What are the balance?
What are what are the rules ofthe house going to be?
Are you going to uh, go do yourtreatment?
Are you going to show up incourt when you're supposed to?
You're going to, you know, payyour fines.
What are you going to do?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Or even at home or supporting them.
They don't have any money andthey don't have any resources
and they need you to supportthem.
So it's like well, if you wantmy support, if you want me to
help you get that apartment orstart living your life, and
everything else.
One you're going to have to goto treatment.
You're going to have to followtheir advice.
Two you're going to have to goto treatment.
(34:48):
You're going to have to followtheir advice.
Two you're going to have inorder for me to support anything
that comes after that.
I'm going to have to see thatyou're committed to this and
that you're going to get a joband that you're contributing
your own expenses and you set aplan for them to achieve
something and get theirengagement and participation in
that plan.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And you know, if you're not doing that, you're
doing them the service andthat's something that I do see a
lot, where parents want theirkids to like them and they don't
.
They don't set clear boundaries.
And then their kids, you know,they don't have boundaries and
they don't know how to setboundaries for their own lives.
(35:24):
They don't know how to setboundaries for their own lives.
Right, that's a.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
That's a hard.
I mean it's a hard road to hoewith with families.
It's a hard skill to teach andfor them to learn because it
feels so emotionally wreckingfor them.
I know that it does.
But the the other side of thatof not setting limits with
people and doing that sort ofthing, it is a mess.
(35:51):
Yeah, it's like getting a leashon your dog.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
You know when you go for a walk you don't want to let
them off the leash and havethem go get run over by a car.
You know you want to be able to.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Or go roll in poop somewhere.
Yeah, after you take them out,you're able to get them roll in
poop somewhere.
Yeah, after you jump in thecreek and then jump in your car,
exactly because they mostcertainly will do that.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
100 do it.
Oh my gosh yeah well, um, howdyit's.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
As usual, we we're overdue for coffee and lunch and
things like that but, um, Ilove talking to you.
I love just knowing thatsomebody out like you is out
there helping families andhelping people.
So let's be sure to gettogether and do what we do best,
which is talk about this.
But I want to thank you forcoming on the show today.
It's been Head Inside MentalHealth on WPVM 1037, the Voice
(36:44):
of Asheville, todd Weatherly,your host here with Heidi
Stewart.
Heidi, good to see you.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Good to see you, todd , bye.
Hello folks, thanks for joining us again here on
Head Inside Mental Health,featuring conversations about
mental health and substance usetreatment, with experts from
across the country sharing theirthoughts and insights on the
world of behavioral health care.
Broadcasting on WPVM 1037, thevoice of Asheville Independent
Commercial Free Radio, I am ToddWeatherly, your host,
(00:20):
therapeutic consultant,behavioral health expert, and
with me today on the show issomeone I've known at least a
couple of decades.
I consider her a dear friend.
I have Heidi Stewart.
Heidi Stewart has beendedicated to community service
and supporting diverse otherswith legal and dispute
resolution services, includingcollaborative governmental and
(00:43):
non-governmental organizationalmanagement and development roles
.
In fact, heidi and I met beingcommunity mediators.
Together with an undergraduatedegree from Warren Wilson, our
local college, heidi attended NCCentral University School of
Law for her law degree.
Heidi has served as adjunctprofessor at AB Tech Community
(01:03):
College, a member and pastchapter president of the
Asheville Toastmasters Club ofToastmasters International.
Heidi has served as an arbiterfor the WNC Better Business
Bureau and as past president ofthe 28th Judicial District Bar.
Coordinator of Buncombe County.
Child Care Resource andReferral Assistant, development
Director of the Mediation Center.
Director of the FamilyVisitation Center, providing
(01:24):
safe child exchange andsupervised visitations for
families who have issues withdomestic violence and child
abuse or neglect.
Most recently, heidi earned herMaster's in Social Work from
ETSU and currently works as afamily therapist at the AGIST
First Episode Psychosis Clinicas part of Family Preservation
Services.
One of our local DHHS LMEcontractors still practicing law
(01:47):
in her off time because shedoesn't have any spare time,
that's for sure.
She also became a certifiedpeer support specialist in 2022,
serving as a family peersupport for the past two years
through the Healthy TransitionProgram funded by SAMHSA, the
Substance Abuse and MentalHealth Service Administration.
Heidi, welcome to the show.
I'm glad to finally get you on.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Glad to be here.
Thanks, Todd.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Oh my gosh.
Well, you've done so much andyou are this great resource for
people in our community.
I certainly send people over tothe AGES Center.
I've sent people to you in yourlaw practice because you know
what it means to navigate thelaw system when you're also
someone who's facing recovery orfacing you know legal problems
(02:31):
as a result of a mental healthcondition and you know attorneys
that know their way around thatare sometimes few and far
between and the contracting, allthe stuff that goes into that.
But you also have a prettyprecious and heartwarming in
some places, heart-wrenching inothers personal connection to
recovery and mental healthtreatment and all those things.
(02:51):
And I don't know where you wantto start.
We always seem to have noproblem coming up with things to
talk about and we always end uptalking about mental health, no
matter what One of my otherprojects is getting my license
clinical addiction specialistcertification right now, and
(03:12):
that is a big passion of mine.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So I actually am having the agency, although I
work with the first episodepsychosis clinic with the
families whose children areexperiencing the first episode
of psychosis, or at least withina two-year period for kids,
yeah, but it's also on the heelsprobably in a lot of cases of
substance use, right.
A lot of times, yes, that's whatthey're doing, they're
(03:35):
self-medicating, and so you know.
So that is something that I ampassionate about because I have,
you know, personal experience.
I have lived experience with myfamily.
My father was an alcoholic.
He did recover.
My oldest brother, or my secondto the oldest brother, was a
(03:57):
narcotics addict and he passedaway when he was in his 50s.
My brother that was a littlebit younger than him, was an
alcoholic and he passed like ayear after my other brother.
And then I have been so blessedto have a daughter.
My adult daughter has asubstance use disorder.
(04:19):
Lovely, lovely young woman.
But she fell into that trap.
I try, I tried to warn her.
You know that we have apropensity to do that and you
know we don't know, we, we sayit's a disease, we say it's a
mental illness.
Um, I, I kind of go with gabormate.
(04:39):
It's like what is the pain thatwe're trying to address?
You know, I know when I wasusing my brother, my oldest
brother had gotten killed by hisroommate and I just couldn't
like I couldn't handle it, andthat was back in the day, you
know, when I was living inArizona, close to San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So so, yeah, treatment wasn't as prominent as
it is today as well.
No, no.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
And I've seen miracles occur Like this
medicated assisted treatment.
I know people, a lot of people,old-timers, who are in NA don't
feel that that is recovery, butin my opinion it's saving lives
and people can work.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, the numbers are pretty clear.
I think that you can fall oneither side of some of that
argument and some of it mightdepend on age and condition and
length of time and recovery andall those pieces, but you're
seeing people return to life,not engage in other substance
use, be able to basically have asuccessful recovery, because
(05:50):
they're on an MAT schedule.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
And I… You're pouring into someone.
Right.
I mean I think your life isyour life right, your life is
your life right and if whatyou're able to do is go back out
in the world and be productiveand everything else, I'm not
sure that it's any of mybusiness or that I really care
how you're pulling it off, solong as you're not hurting
anybody else or causing yourselfimminent harm and danger that
(06:17):
you'll fall off.
But you know MAT, I mean you'vegot, especially you know the
population I see it working withthe most and that is delicate,
is the veteran population.
You got guys that are comingout of you know they're coming
out of environments that werehighly traumatizing first of all
.
Many of them, however, alsohave, you know, these chronic
(06:40):
health conditions where they'vehad some injury and it's caused
them to have arthriticconditions and spines and knees
and you know, multiple places inthe body or something that just
never healed right and hasnever felt right, and these guys
are on.
You know they may have soughtdrugs to try and just relieve
the pain and they findthemselves on an MAT and it's
the thing that can keep themfrom one experiencing very high
(07:05):
levels of pain but two, alsoturning to substances as a way
of seeking for relief, and Idon't know that I would want to
be a person who tried tointerrupt that with somebody.
I don't know what your life'slike.
I think we get reallyjudgmental.
That's the problem.
It's like you don't know whatwalking in that person's shoes
is like.
So before you decide thatyou're going to judge somebody,
(07:27):
think about it for a second.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Exactly that's what I've always tried to tell my
kids.
You know, you don't know what'sgoing on in their life.
They might have just lost theirmother.
You know, the last, the lastyear of my master's program, I
actually did my internship overat the Veterans Restoration
Borders and ran groups, theseeking safety, substance use
(07:53):
groups.
And you know, I think the thingwas is that it was really
important for them.
A lot of them, their familieshad cut ties with them because
they had alcohol use disorderand substance use disorders and
they basically had, you know,cut the relationship with their
child, even though they'readults, I know, but if they
(08:15):
served in the service and they'dbeen through some trauma and
had some kind of a mental healthdisorder usually dual disorder
you know that's not the time andI'm passionate about this whole
thing, about how important itis to have family support you
and let you know that you lovethem no matter what they do.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
It doesn't mean you're going to give them money
to support a habit, but you needto maintain contact.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, yes, and even just you know, like my daughter,
I'll send her a little, youknow, cause I get all these
little daily, today's hope anddaily sayings and things like
that.
No, I'll just, you know, Ithink, oh, that's really, that's
really good.
I think that she'd really enjoythat and I'll just send it to
her with a little heart and sayI love you, just so that she
(09:01):
knows that I'm thinking abouther, you know, because there's
so much blame and shame ateenager, but you know, thinking
that you, you know you effed upand you and you're never going
(09:30):
to be whole again or nobody'sever going to respect you again,
and you know there's somethingwrong with you.
And why?
Why can't you know?
Why can't you do like otherpeople?
Why are you different?
And you just kick yourself inthe ass and negative self-talk.
It's not like like angel anddevil, it's like I'm not worth a
(09:53):
shit.
Yeah, it's just constant,constant, constant.
And when you see somebody, likeover on Lexington Avenue here
in Asheville, and they're justdown and out, you can see from
their body language, you knowthat they've lost everything.
And I just want to ask themwhere's your mom?
Call your mom or you know.
But then they can't do thatbecause their moms in a lot of
(10:17):
instances.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Just as bad off yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
They've judged them and I know I work with families
here and, and you know, havingpsychosis, like you said, it can
be drug induced psychosis.
You know, but they don't.
You know the family doesn'tunderstand that this is just a
mental illness and that they canrecover, recovery is possible.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Sure is.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
And it's like 80 something percent of people who
are experiencing psychosis ordrug addiction.
If they have the support oftheir family members, they can
recover.
They will recover Statistically.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well, and I think they get mixed messages too.
I mean, if you go into ahospital setting, it depends on
the doc that you get.
And you might get some doc thatsays, yeah, well, this is the
way they're going to live, thisis the baseline, don't expect
them to ever have hope or liveindependently or have a job or
do any of those things.
And they get this message andit's hard to come back from and
(11:17):
it's not true and this doctordoesn't know, but they're the
professional, so this familybelieves that that's what it's
going to be right.
Or they hit the street and theymight have a chance of getting
better.
But access to the resources issuper challenging and I've
certainly, like you and I haveworked a little bit together on
folks that are in that position.
They're just trying to findenough resources to help them
(11:39):
grapple with this condition,especially schizophrenia.
I mean you're talking about amajor psychiatric condition.
It's one of the hardest tomanage, it's very difficult to
medicate, it's very difficult tohave a person stay organized.
And then you've got a familythat you know at one point in
time didn't know anything aboutit.
They suddenly have to becomeexperts about it and fortunately
(12:02):
, somebody like you, I can sendpeople to, but you're just a
first step in a long, long roadand I guess one question I have
is what are you seeing on thestreet these days?
We're post-Helene andpost-election and everything
else.
What's coming into you now?
Is it different?
(12:23):
Is the need increased?
What's what's going on downthere?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
It's really been amazing.
I was just talking to tosomeone about that today.
Actually, we used to just getreferrals, like here in
Asheville, you know, we getreferrals maybe once every
couple of weeks, and last weekwe got three, one out of town,
one in Franklin, one in MaconCounty.
(12:50):
So it's not just Asheville, youknow, and it's not just one
every couple of weeks anymore.
This hurricane has pushed a lotof kids I call them kids or
emerging adults also is, I think, the correct terminology 15 to
30 years old has just pushedthem off the scale, and
(13:13):
especially if they're smokingthis high potency marijuana
that's going on.
Right now, it will kick theminto psychosis.
Right now, it will kick theminto psychosis.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And then you know they may have had what's called
prodromal tendencies to becomeschizophrenic, but this
marijuana or a traumatic eventlike a hurricane will kick
someone who has those prodromaltendencies right into psychosis
and that's what's happening.
Well, I was just Dr RockyMurata out of Silver Hill
Hospital in Connecticut, kind ofone of those you know, one of
the most preeminent authoritieson schizophrenia and psychosis,
and runs their unit there.
We were talking about thistopic the amount of the increase
in the rate of admission atpsychiatric hospitals as a
(14:08):
result of the high doses ofmarijuana that are out on the
street today.
You're seeing doubles andtriples in numbers of people
that are coming in.
It's getting to epidemicproportions.
But you're seeing very, verycomplicated conditions walk
through the door as a result ofwhat's available on the street.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
And a lot of times, like you're saying, you know
they may go into the mental whatwe have here, sweet and Creek
Mental Health and go through theprogram and get stabilized on
medication and then get referredover to this program.
But that's not going to stopthem from smoking that marijuana
or Delta 9 or whatever they'reusing.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
And as they get out, they're going right back to it.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Exactly.
And so then there's this wholefollow up.
That's why we have this, whythis all the way across the
country actually came up fromAustralia and over from Europe.
Basically, this comprehensivecare model where you have a
psychiatrist, a nurse, a familytherapist, individual therapist,
(15:20):
two peer support specialistsand employment and education
specialists who are all wrappingtheir arms around this person
and you know the peers have aget together, I think twice a
month, like they go bowling orthey just sit around and do
vision boards or whatever youknow, get pizza or whatever.
(15:40):
To learn how to socialize again, because that is one of the
aspects of psychosis is withthis whole self-isolation.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
It throws you off.
You don't know how to go backout and make friends.
They don't.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
They just sit inside and, you know, play games or
stare at their phone or listento voices.
So it's really, really it's agreat program and I'm glad that
we're finally doing somethinglike this, because I don't have
the statistics in front of me,but you know, schizophrenia is a
very, very expensive diseasefor our society.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Well, it's funny to me because you're talking about
this.
You know came from Australiaand came from Europe.
This care model and for me thatlives on the largely lives on
the private pay side.
That's just standard.
Yeah, you know people who canpay for it and have been doing
so for years.
(16:37):
That model plus some is thestandard of care.
That model plus some is thestandard of care.
And for everybody else, whereinsurance is not going to cover
it or Medicaid doesn't knowabout it or they're
investigating some, they'rebringing it from another country
and the level of care livesright here.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
It already lives here .
Yeah, we can do it right now.
We know how to do it already.
Yeah, that's what I was talkingto a mom yesterday doing an
intake, and she said we can'tafford this shot.
This shot costs a thousanddollars every time.
And I was like, well, ourprogram is fully funded.
It's fully funded by the stateand SAMHSA, and then we work
(17:18):
with UNC, chapel Hill, so youknow, so you don't have to pay
$1,000 for your son to get ashot which will last for about a
month.
There are other ones, you know,but I had no idea it was that
expensive.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, it's really expensive.
I mean a lot of these shots,vivitrol shots, or Risperdone or
Abilify.
They're all pretty expensive,mind you, technically you're
buying a month's worth of medsat a time when you get one, but
insurance companies aren'tplaying fair ball when it comes
to coverage.
(17:55):
And then you've got familieswho aren't insured or their
plans are very limited orthey're on Medicaid and you're
not seeing the levels ofcoverage that you need to
provide for care like this.
I mean it's it's a complicatedissue that people end up facing
and the result when people don't, you know I've got a, I've got
somebody right now.
That's that I'm trying to workwith that.
You know they just came out ofa two week stay in the hospital.
(18:18):
They've been in and out of careso often.
You know would yell and getagitated and everything like
that.
So RHA won't touch him anymore.
Won't work with him.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, they do, they do that.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
And you know so.
When he comes out of thehospital after this two weeks
worth of stabilization, wheredoes he go?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Because he also lost his housing placement, you know,
because he tore up the placeand et cetera, et cetera.
So you can guess where he is.
He's homeless.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And he's over there on the corner where I go home to
.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
There's a whole city over there, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Or you know he's holed up in some shed near
somebody's house trying tofigure it out, and you know, in
any of those places, oddlyenough, what you can find is
drugs.
So if you've got a substanceuse problem, you can probably
get your needs met among avariety of other things, and so
that person just dives even moredeeply into this area of living
(19:21):
that exists in our country.
That's very hard to extractsomebody from and treat them for
, and that's what happens.
There's a huge subset of ourpopulation suffers from severe
and persistent mental illness,and I tell you, if you became
homeless and you lived on thestreet for a while, if you
didn't have something in theform of trauma or significant
(19:42):
mental illness or PTSD beforeyou got there, you do now.
I mean to go home with yourfamily.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yeah, that's why I don't understand why we don't
have low barrier shelters around.
You and me both know, withsocial workers and doctors, kind
of like this whole thing, likethis whole wraparound for people
, so that they gain back someself-respect and are able to,
(20:11):
you know, have what I mean,because statistically that
they've shown that this is true.
If you have a home, you know,and you have food, if you have
the basic needs, you know, yougot a chance.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, you can.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
The basic needs, you know you got a chance.
Yeah, you can recover.
But, how can you do it whenyou're I mean, I watch them over
there on the corner where Ilive, down from the mall.
You know they know each other,they are their tribe, they are
their own tribe and they have awhole culture.
You know that they support eachother in Unfortunately it's not
(20:47):
that healthy of a culture, butat least it's their family, you
know well and it's.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And there are lots of people.
If you give them a chance to behoused and have care needs met
and things like that, they theyeither turn it down or they
don't last in it very long.
They return to that communitybecause that's where they feel
connected that's right um, butyou know the.
You know that, uh, haywood road.
We had um reverend brian combson the show not too long ago and
(21:11):
they just opened.
they just opened three new ummental health recovery beds or a
respite beds over there,haywood, which is, I mean, it's
nowhere close to meeting theneeds, but but I see I'm just
glad that they're making theeffort as they always do.
It was, and hopefully somebodycan make access to that.
(21:31):
My person was not willing,unfortunately.
He preferred the street overbeing in a respite bed, and
that's what happens.
That's what you see.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, you don't want to have.
I mean a lot of people, like Isaid, if they have schizophrenia
especially, they self-isolate,they don't want other people up
in their stuff, they don't wantto ask questions.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I know I asked one of our clients the other day so
what's good with you today?
And boy, that was not the rightthing to say.
I was like oh God.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
They've done a thing good with me today.
Let me tell you all the way.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Why would you ask me?
That you know I'm like sorry,I'm going back to my office.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Right?
Well, I tell you, this is aquestion I like to ask folks.
I had Sue Polson on the showtoo, I had Meredith Schweitzer
on the show, and I just get youknow the local band of advocates
around here, of which I includeyou as a founding member, at
(22:37):
the very least, if you were tohave it your way and you were to
lay out a system that causedthis whole, because I think what
we do is we throw a lot ofBand-Aids at things and if
anything, the system's gettingworse, not better, because the
need's growing and thecomplexity is growing.
(22:59):
And if you were going to put asystem in place that addressed
the needs that kind of walkthrough your door and, you know,
walk through the other servicecare doors that are in our
community what would you put inplace?
What would be the answer to you?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
You know I've often thought there was this prison
model in Indiana, of all places,that they had people in the
prison learning how to doelectrical work and carpentry
work and use the tools and buildthese affordable houses, you
know, kind of like many houseswe have now.
(23:33):
And so they learned.
You know they learned a skill.
They, you know they had housingand they well, I know the
jail's not all that great andgroovy, but you know they had
learned something that theycould take out into the world.
And do you know they had threesquares a day?
They probably had.
(23:53):
I know there are social workersin the prison system too and
mental health workers there.
So now we're getting to thepoint where they're doing
medicated assisted treatment inthe jail system, which is
something that we all, aslawyers, needed for a while.
Well, we talk about that beingthe biggest mental health system
there is in our country.
(24:14):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
So, yeah, something like that where, like I said, a
wraparound program where theylearned skills, life skills, how
to cook, how to clean, you knowall those basic things that for
some reason, once you startusing and get out on the streets
, you know you forget anythingbecause you go into this
(24:39):
mammalian brain and start, youknow, just trying to survive,
and you know get the next hit.
Or you know just trying tosurvive, and you know get the
next hit.
Or you know get the next tokeor whatever, to make you be able
to deal with things.
So, and community is reallyimportant.
I think that's one reason why Iwas attracted to this program,
(24:59):
because you know I'm, I show myparents love and I show the kids
love, whether they show me loveback or not.
You know we have, like on thefirst Tuesday of each month, I
have a family group.
Come in, the parents come inand I have a really nice meal
catered in from Red FiddleViddle and we all sit around and
(25:21):
talk.
Last Tuesday we had a youngwoman out, alabama Stone, who is
a peer support specialist downin Wilmington, appear by Zoom
and talk to the parents aboutwhat it was like to have
psychosis and to recover frompsychosis and you know what her
(25:44):
parents did to support her.
You know, I'll send you.
I've got a podcast of hers ifyou're interested.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I'd love to see it.
She sounds great.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, and you know.
So the parents were askingquestions.
You know she was answering them.
Right now she has an MFA.
Now she's getting her master'sin social work and working for a
recovery agency down a firstepisode psychosis agency and
working as a peer supportspecialist.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
So In Wilmington.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
In Wilmington.
Yeah, so it's just, you know,there is hope and that would be
the thing that I would do if Icould, just to have people who
have recovered come back.
You know, I mean she's funky,tell the story.
People who have recovered comeback.
You know, I mean she's funky,she's got like whatever that
stuff is where you gum up yourhair and stuff like dreads.
(26:33):
You know, I mean, she's a cool,she's a cool person, I just
love her and funny as hell.
But you know, that's the kindof thing I would do.
And you know, most people whoare in recovery are highly
intelligent people.
They just haven't figured outhow to deal in the world and
that's something that I think isimportant for them to know that
(26:55):
they're not alone, you know,nor are these parents alone.
Who has substance use disorderor schizophrenia or bipolar or
schizoaffective disorder, allthese things that they've been
diagnosed with?
That I try to tell the parents,Todd, that doesn't.
(27:15):
That's not who they are, that'sjust a diagnosis that's been
attached to them.
They're special, they're highlyintelligent, they're sweet as
pie, you know, I mean, and whatI've seen happening with all of
that wraparound support isamazing.
Like we've got one who's youknow, going to AB Tech.
Where he was, he was comatose.
(27:37):
For the first time I met him,he was in a dark room sitting in
front of a television, thinkinghe was part of a gang, you know
.
And now he's going to be, techand you know, some have finished
their high school diplomas.
And you know, just becausewe're here saying you can do it
and we've done it too.
(27:57):
I dropped out of high school,believe it or not.
When I was a junior in highschool, I dropped out.
That's how I got to NorthCarolina.
My mom was in Scottsdale,arizona, and I was using out in
Scottsdale and I had to get outof it.
So I came to Brevard, northCarolina, where my dad lived,
and you can imagine what aculture shock that was.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I mean, Scottsdale is still a small town, but it is a
pretty big culture shock.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Who are these people?
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Well, you know, I did , I graduated from high school.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
After I quit, you know, it's like I was like God
almighty, I was like living,like I said, living in
somebody's closet you know, sorecovery is possible, you know,
I don't know, the Western NorthCarolina pulls you in.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
You've been here ever since.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
You can't go.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah, yeah, you can't remember I tried, I went to
oregon, came back.
Well, yeah, I mean, I think themessage is recovery is possible
, you know what I mean becauseit really is it is and you know
private treatment's great and ifyou can get it, get it, yeah.
But and I tell people, you knowfamilies, specifically, you know
(29:09):
the ones that send you and toother agencies stay on top of it
.
You have to be a person.
The system is not going to comeand get you because it's
overwhelmed.
But if you've gotten yourselfinto the, in front of people who
can help you and in front ofpeople who have services to
provide and you've been givenaccess, get everything you can
(29:31):
out of that system.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Like the other thing about this todd, is there's this
, this rumor about tough loverunning around this country.
You know, like kick their assout.
You know you to do some.
Don't put up with that shit,you know.
And so what I have learned andwhat I communicate to anybody
(29:54):
who will listen to me is youknow, the way I deal with it is
like I love you and you know Iset a boundary.
This I will not have somebodyusing in my house.
You know I love you and it'snot okay.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
It's not okay for you to cuss at me, but I'm always
trying to preface it with I loveyou and you know not, not, you
know, get the hell out of myhouse, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
I love you.
This is what I will support,this is what I won't support.
These are my hard limits.
Clarity is kindness, like wesay.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
You know what I mean and we have a choice because you
know, our kids know us betterthan anybody and they can punch
our buttons and know how to geta reaction.
Well, what happens if you don'treact?
If, like, one of my favoritethings to say is you know you
might be right, I'll think aboutthat and then I'll go in my
bedroom and close the door, youknow?
(30:52):
And then they're like yeah whatis this?
you know, but I feel better.
You know, and I'll think aboutit.
You know, but I'm not going tobe manipulated anymore and
there's a highly, you know, it'sa highly manipulative disease.
Yes, it's a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
You know they say this about depression, not
saying about substance use.
But it's, it's a liar and acheat.
You know, the person is not buttheir condition, if their, if
their condition is speakingthrough them.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, it's not.
It's almost not session.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
And that's what they, they always say.
You know, if you how to know ifa drug addict's lying, if their
lips are moving?
You know, and it is.
I've had, you know I've hadsome losses because and it's
been very traumatizing for me asa parent to be violated by
having things taken away, takenfrom my house that were
important.
And you know my father, he puthis house up for bond for my
brother and then he jumped bondand took off, you know, and my
father got to pay the bond onhis house.
So you know it can be reallyhard to keep loving them.
(32:10):
But I think the main thing todo is to know that it's a mental
illness.
They're not doing it on purpose.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah, you can't take it personally.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
I mean you can, but that's not healthy.
It's not healthy.
And I will say that.
You know one of the things thatI end up helping families a lot
with, and you know about thisas well and even in communities,
if there's not even a strongdrug court or some other process
, a lot of times if you've gotsomebody who's helping you,
somebody like you or me, you canget, you know, well, I'll put
(32:45):
bond up for them.
Don don't do that.
Get the court to divert them totreatment.
You can either be in jail oryou can be in treatment.
Which one would you rather get?
Which one would you rather doand work a diversion agreement
out with the court?
And you know treatment is timeserved and things like that.
It can be a really effectiveway to get somebody the care
(33:09):
that they need, especially whenit's somebody who's unwilling to
get that care without thatholding over their head.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, that's a good point.
And you know, I don't know ifyou're familiar with the word
anosognosia, I am.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's one of my favorite terms these days.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Someone does not realize that they are mentally
ill, you know.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
I'm willing to accept it.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yes, um, and so you know.
So that is something that, yeah, I know you may not want to do
that, but you know, if you wantto come back and live in my
house, you know this is the deal.
This is what needs to happen,right, and I understand that you
don't believe that there'sanything wrong with you, but
(33:53):
this is what we're going to do.
If you want to live in my home,and then if they say I don't
want to live in your home andthey go out on the street, and
then they come back knocking onyour front door saying, oh my
God, there are people throwingup out there.
You don't know what's going on.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Can I come home?
Well, let's talk about uh.
What are the balance?
What are what are the rules ofthe house going to be?
Are you going to uh, go do yourtreatment?
Are you going to show up incourt when you're supposed to?
You're going to, you know, payyour fines.
What are you going to do?
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Or even at home or supporting them.
They don't have any money andthey don't have any resources
and they need you to supportthem.
So it's like well, if you wantmy support, if you want me to
help you get that apartment orstart living your life, and
everything else.
One you're going to have to goto treatment.
You're going to have to followtheir advice.
Two you're going to have to goto treatment.
(34:48):
You're going to have to followtheir advice.
Two you're going to have inorder for me to support anything
that comes after that.
I'm going to have to see thatyou're committed to this and
that you're going to get a joband that you're contributing
your own expenses and you set aplan for them to achieve
something and get theirengagement and participation in
that plan.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And you know, if you're not doing that, you're
doing them the service andthat's something that I do see a
lot, where parents want theirkids to like them and they don't
.
They don't set clear boundaries.
And then their kids, you know,they don't have boundaries and
they don't know how to setboundaries for their own lives.
(35:24):
They don't know how to setboundaries for their own lives.
Right, that's a.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
That's a hard.
I mean it's a hard road to hoewith with families.
It's a hard skill to teach andfor them to learn because it
feels so emotionally wreckingfor them.
I know that it does.
But the the other side of thatof not setting limits with
people and doing that sort ofthing, it is a mess.
(35:51):
Yeah, it's like getting a leashon your dog.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
You know when you go for a walk you don't want to let
them off the leash and havethem go get run over by a car.
You know you want to be able to.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Or go roll in poop somewhere.
Yeah, after you take them out,you're able to get them roll in
poop somewhere.
Yeah, after you jump in thecreek and then jump in your car,
exactly because they mostcertainly will do that.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
100 do it.
Oh my gosh yeah well, um, howdyit's.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
As usual, we we're overdue for coffee and lunch and
things like that but, um, Ilove talking to you.
I love just knowing thatsomebody out like you is out
there helping families andhelping people.
So let's be sure to gettogether and do what we do best,
which is talk about this.
But I want to thank you forcoming on the show today.
It's been Head Inside MentalHealth on WPVM 1037, the Voice
(36:44):
of Asheville, todd Weatherly,your host here with Heidi
Stewart.
Heidi, good to see you.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Good to see you, todd , bye.
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