December 16, 2024 • 44 mins
Join us for an engaging conversation with Webster Bailey, the Executive Director of the Metro Drug Coalition (MDC) in Knoxville, TN, who shares his inspiring work championing community-based recovery programs. Discover how his personal experiences in long-term recovery has fueled his passion for creating a thriving recovery community, and learn about the critical role of community support in addressing co-occurring mental health and substance misuse disorders. Coming to us from the home of the MDC, the Gateway Recovery Center, where evidence-based practices, education, recovery support, and harm reduction programs are making a significant impact.
The MDC stands out by providing rapid access to treatment, reducing wait times dramatically, and offering a welcoming environment powered by the dedication of volunteers, talented staff, and local agency collaboration. Dive into insights drawn from a successful community center model revealing how such programs build bridges to sustained recovery and foster hope and transformation.
With innovative programs at the heart of their center we hear about the House Managers Academy, a 10-week curriculum crafted to enhance peer support and positive outcomes in recovery residences. The benefits extend beyond residents, with house managers experiencing improved recovery rates as they apply their training personally. Practicing methodologies found in private pay residential centers such as trauma-informed care and alternative practices such as sober yoga classes and art therapy, Webster shares his vision of more inclusive and effective recovery environments for the future.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello folks, welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
On WPBM 1037, the voice ofAsheville independent commercial
free radio, I am Todd Weatherly, your host, therapeutic
consultant, behavioral healthexpert.
With me today is a gentlemanI've known for many years now
crossed the line from us in EastTennessee.
Colleague and friend of mine,webster Bailey, joins us today.
(00:22):
Webster serves as the executivedirector for the Metro Drug
Coalition, the MDC.
After a 15-year career workingin private residential addiction
treatment, he joined the MDCfull-time in April 2023, serving
as director of development forone year to close out the
capital campaign for the GatewayRecovery Center.
(00:43):
Webster's career in thetreatment field was primarily
focused on business developmentand missions, but, as a person
in long-term recovery himself,he has dedicated his career to
helping others recover from thedisease of addiction.
Webster has had a long-standinginvolvement with MDC, dating
back to 2006,.
He was a member of the MDC'scommunity coalition from 2006 to
(01:06):
2012, and then a board memberfor eight years from 2012 to
2020, serving as a boardpresident from 2015 to 2017.
As a result of his dedicationand involvement in recovery work
as a residential treatment,webster is a repeated honoree in
his community.
In 2013, he received theCommunity Service Award from the
(01:29):
Tennessee Licensed ProfessionalCounselors Association, the
Recovery Services Award from theMetropolitan Drug Commission in
2014, and the PreventionChampion Award from the Blount
County Community Mental Healthor Community Health Initiative
in 2015.
In 2016, he was namedProfessional of the Year by the
East Tennessee Association ofAlcohol and Drug Abuse
(01:50):
Counselors, edac, and laterreceived their Lifetime
Achievement Award 2023.
Congratulations on all that,webster.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It's like I'm an all right guy from hearing you.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
You know, I tell you, it sounds pretty good to me.
Who is that guy?
I tell you it sounds prettygood to me.
Who is that guy?
And then, of course, thebiggest thing that you do is
help your wife, Robinella, bymanaging and promoting her music
and art career.
Serve as the board of directorsfor Clearfork Coal Company and
Prevectus Biopharmaceuticals,and in 2017, I didn't know this
you launched a new clothing andapparel line for recovering
(02:23):
people called Higher PoweredLifestyle Apparel Company.
That's cool, Webster.
Thanks for joining me andwelcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Todd.
It's good to be with you, man.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I'll tell you what Well you and I have known each
other.
A minute Gosh.
I think we met back in 2010,.
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Certainly could have been.
It's been a while.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It's been a while I think we got a decade on us at
least yeah, and you know, thething that I have always
appreciated about you is just,you know, honest sincerity.
You're a genuine and authenticperson, and I think that is
probably, if I was going to nameanything that it requires to do
(03:09):
recovery, well, I'd say that'sprobably it.
Um, and I and you know.
Just to just to talk about the,mdc is a non-profit
organization serving to createhealthy and safe community free
of substance misuse.
Uh servedved Knoxvillecommunity for 38 years.
The goal is to increase accessto evidence-based prevention,
(03:29):
education, harm reductionprograms and recovery support
services for anyone desiring tomaintain or seek a life free
from substance misuse.
And you guys are in the centerthat you you helped do the
fundraising for.
That's where your office is Isthat right?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I'm here right now.
Man, I'm up, I'm a, I'm in,like there's some office space
upstairs above a community room.
So below me I, you hopefullyyou can't hear it, but I can
there's people lifting weights.
Uh, there's people shooting andping pong, uh, all that you
know kind of stuff going onright now.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So Was this a plan ahead?
Did you help fundraise for thebuilding and like?
I think I need to make a corneroffice for myself with this
thing.
I'm not that smart, Todd.
Okay, Me either, Um.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
That sounds like a game of chess.
I'm a more of a checkers player.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I heard that, um, well, you know, I think I think
a day at a time is probably nota bad way to go anyhow.
Uh, and you know for me and Icome pretty strongly from the,
from the mental health side andthen with a, you know there's
this large population of peoplethat that sits right there in
the co-occurring.
You know they suffer mentalhealth conditions, they have
substance misuse as part of sitsright there and they're
(04:46):
co-occurring.
You know they suffer frommental health conditions, they
have substance misuse as part oftheir story and their you know
their recovery can becomplicated and it certainly can
come with heartache and tragedy.
That you and I have both seenin these communities time and
time again.
And you know one of the thingsthat we all know, and I think
that if you dig very far,community is a.
(05:07):
There's a saying for atreatment company that's out
there that community is theintervention and the solution.
And so you know the one thingthat we lost with some of the
legislation some of the thingsthat happened across the country
and everything else in mentalhealth were clubhouses.
You lost these communitycenters where people who felt
(05:32):
kind of estranged and felt likethey were different could come
and find community and do thingslike that.
And it sounds to me, eventhough your population is a
little different, the MDC isvery much like that.
It's this community centerwhere people can come find
community, they can findeducation, they can find care,
they can continue their recoveryjourney however they landed on
(05:57):
it or started it and then findpeople like you with many years
in recovery and know that thatstory is out there and know that
that's something that'spossible.
What is it like coming from?
I'm really interested in theanswer to this question.
What is it like coming from theprivate pay residential
treatment side, you know where,you know insurance billing and
(06:18):
people paying out of pocket andthings like that into a
community resource like the MDC?
What do you see as the bigdifferences in terms of, you
know, organization, programming,leadership and all that stuff?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, there are a lot of vast differences, todd, and
then there's also some, probablysome surprising similarities
too.
The difference is really, Iwill say, in some way shape or
form, and this is by virtue ofthe work we're doing, but also
by the location that we decidedto build and to create this
(06:53):
place we are in, located inbasically a corner of downtown
Knoxville, in what people wouldconsider to be the most
dangerous and worst part of ourcommunity.
We are in Homeless Central.
That is right where we locatedourselves.
So the mission, the overnight,you know, missions across the
(07:17):
street, the rescue mission, andthen you've got all these
housing agencies, and so we'reright in the middle of the
homeless encampments and allthat kind of stuff.
And so what I would sayinitially, the first difference
is, while there's desperationand heartache in private pay,
(07:37):
private treatment centers,there's a different level of it.
What we're doing right nowthese know, these are the folks
maybe went to places that I usedto work and other for-profit
agencies and treatment centers.
You know, some five years ago,10 years ago, 20 years ago, and,
for whatever reason, theirrecovery, I'll just say, didn't
(07:58):
take, for lack of a better term,and they continue to lose more
and more and more stuff.
And so we're we're servingpeople who are, who are
literally at the bottom.
You know what I mean?
There's, there's, the onlyplace to go down from here is
death and uh, and so we'retrying to to to work with those
individuals and help them findfind some hope, um, so I mean.
(08:22):
So the difference is the levelof desperation.
The difference is the level offlexibility that we get to have
in how we do things and how weshape the culture of our
community center.
So this is a place whereeverybody gets to be themselves,
and you get that to some degreein a treatment center setting
(08:45):
as well.
But we are we're absolutely nota treatment center.
We are a recovery communitieswhere people walk through our
door, sometimes after just usingin the alley behind our
building, or maybe they're dopesick or they're going into
withdraw from whatever substancethey've been using, and they
(09:06):
say, hey, I heard you guys couldhelp me here.
I need detox, I need you know.
And then they just kind of tellus what their needs are.
And we are really fortunate.
We're kind of like a Swiss armyknife in that we have different
tools to meet people where theyare, different tools to meet
people where they are and itmight be that they have no money
(09:26):
, no insurance, no ability toreally care for themselves, but
they want help and so we've gota person whose position is to
coordinate all of that care.
And so we maintainrelationships across the state
of Tennessee, because all of ourfunding within Tennessee.
If you're going to help someoneaccess a grant bed, they've got
(09:48):
to be a resident of the stateof Tennessee.
You know so.
But we we maintain relationshipsat all of these places and
we're able to get people who aredesperate with without any
money in their pocket and noinsurance policy.
We're getting them in treatment24 to 48, sometimes less,
sometimes it's on the moment.
(10:10):
And that's coming from a placewhere, in our community, it was
typical to have a four to sixmonth waiting list so that if
you were to be that personpicking up the phone call and
saying, hey, I need help, I needa grant bed, they'd get you on
a waiting list and they'd callyou in four to six months.
And now we're making that 24 to48 hours on a regular basis and
(10:31):
that's pretty cool to be ableto help those folks that really
don't have anywhere else to turn.
We rely a lot on volunteerismhere, and that's volunteerism
that comes primarily through therecovering community, but also
through a variety of channels.
It's really amazing.
So when we started doing this,you had the Knox County
Probation Department, you havethe Recovery Court, all these
(10:54):
governmental agencies who are,you know, tend to be more.
You know, their approach tendsto be more coming from a
judicial standpoint.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
They're a little more punitive over there.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Absolutely.
But they love what we're doingand they send all their people
here to get their volunteerhours and to, because they know
that while they're here doingvolunteerism, they're also going
.
Recovery is going to rub off onthem, naturally it does, and so
we've got folks here who youknow walk in and they're,
they're, they're volunteeringand they they don't even know
(11:27):
where they're coming.
They're just coming herebecause they got to do eight
hours or 20 hours or 100 hours,and and then by the end they,
they identify themselves in adifferent way.
You know what I mean, like interms of whether it's recovery
or just more knowledgeable aboutthe whole recovery, uh,
movement and lifestyle.
(11:48):
So so that's really um we Iwant to tell you about.
Can I?
Can I just tell you about someof the different things that
happen?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
yeah, absolutely.
I want to know all about itplease again.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
So it kind of goes back to that old, that older.
You know, when we were kids,like you, had community centers
they were.
You know that's, we were kidslike you, had community centers
they were, you know, normal andnatural.
We're learning how to playbasketball yeah.
So so that was the idea we took.
As this idea was coming to MDCit was.
There were some other agenciesaround the country doing a
(12:22):
really good job of doing thiskind of work.
One of them's in Marietta,georgia, and it's called the
Zone.
One's in Sandusky, ohio, andit's called the Artisan Center,
and so we did field trips and wewent and looked at these places
and tried to get a feel forwhat is it that they're doing
here and is this translatable?
Does this make sense to do inKnoxville?
(12:42):
Because what we know, and knowthis as well as anybody, is we
can, we can pick people up offthe ground and send.
When they discharge fromtreatment successfully and they
(13:06):
get the coin and everybody says,man, you're going to do great,
you've done awesome in treatment, and we send them home.
If we don't help themtransition into a new recovering
, supportive community in theirhome area.
They might make it a day or twoor a week or a month or you
know.
But but if, if nothing changes,nothing changes Right In terms
(13:30):
of how they spend their time,what?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
they short lived.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, so the goal here was to create a, a bridge,
basically a gateway, if you will, into this new lifestyle.
And so we, when, um, when you,if you were to walk uh
downstairs, uh, right now, you'dencounter people who are a day
clean, a year clean, a decadeclean an hour clean.
(13:55):
Yeah, and still, probably somestill using, you know, not
flagrantly, obviously we don't.
We try to create a safe spaceand environment.
You know what I mean.
But, um, obviously we don't wetry to create a safe space and
environment.
You know what I mean, but butyeah.
(14:16):
So I mean, there's, the magichappens when you're able to put
people together and you're ableto help just make connections
between people, and thattransfer of spiritual, what have
you happens, that that transferof knowledge and connection is
what is what brings people back.
And so we kind of we functionas a resource center and, like I
said, you can walk in and youcan say I need treatment, and
we're going to get you intotreatment really quick.
Or you can walk in and say, hey, I need help figuring out how
(14:40):
to get my driver's license back.
I don't, you know, I've got topay these fines, I got to do
these things.
So we'll actually assign you,free of charge, a recovery coach
and that's somebody who willbasically it's not case
management, it's, it's a.
We use a credential calledcertified recovery coaching out
of Connecticut and we use thatmodel and and and so we'll
(15:00):
basically help you figure outwhat your recovery plan looks
like and then we meet with youweekly or a couple of times a
week or as much as it takes, tohelp you achieve these goals
that you have for yourself.
We, we host 12 step meetingshere.
We host other recovery meetingsthat are not 12 step based.
We're trying to be that nowrong door.
(15:21):
So if 12 steps are not yourthing but you're into Dharma
recovery, well come on.
We got that too.
We do.
We, you know, we've, we've donea lot of those things.
We teach art classes.
I wish I could show you some ofthe art that we have.
So we've got an incredibleteacher instructor here who
teaches a few art classes a weekand and usually it's usually
(15:43):
the people in his class or are,uh, they're, they're in a
halfway house, they're notworking, yet they come here to
spend their time because intheir halfway house they've,
they're, you know they're saying, hey, if you don't have a job,
then you need to be over at thegateway, going to meetings,
working with a recovery coach,doing those kinds of things.
We've been really fortunate tobuild great relationships with
recovery residences in Knoxvilleand uh, and so you'll get these
(16:06):
, you know, burly guys who haveno interest in art whatsoever
and now they're sitting in anart class in front of an easel
with a blank canvas and a bunchof you know oils and all.
I mean we have all thematerials.
It's really great.
Our community has really showedup and and every time we have a
need for something, peoplebring it over.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
It's pretty remarkable, um but is that some
of the hanging on your wall backthere?
You got a little bit probablythat one's.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Uh, that was a barter deal that actually came from a
lady in North Carolina, believeit or not, all right.
And, uh, we traded a piece forthat piece.
But there's stuff downstairsthat that's equally as cool as
that.
But anyway, so Denver'sapproach.
Denver is our instructor,denver Johnson's name.
He's amazing.
And he'll sit down with thesemen or these women and say, you
(16:55):
know, and they're like, I don'tknow how to paint, I don't know
what I'm doing.
And he says, that's OK, I dojust do what I do.
And so you know, there'll be animage that they're going to
paint up on the wall.
It'll be a landscape orsomething.
He says this is our subject forthe day and he starts doing his
little.
We call him little Bobby Ross.
You know he'll start doing astroke here and a stroke there
(17:18):
and he's like, ok, y'all just dowhat I do, follow me.
And then you know, 30 minutesinto that process, their
painting is taking shape andit's looking like something.
And it's like they've surprisedthemselves even on what it
looks like.
And then he turns to them andhe says something like you know,
recovery works the same way.
(17:38):
You don't experience with it,but when you find somebody who
knows what they're doing and youjust do what they do, then you
get what they got.
You know what I mean, and so itmakes that very relatable to
the.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's incredible.
I love that story man.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
They come back the next day and they're like can we
take another art class?
You know what I mean next dayand they're like can we take
another art class?
Answers are literally full ofartwork that are.
That is gorgeous, and peopleare when people come, like the
mayor comes here and the countymayor, the city mayor, like a
lot of people, really love whatwe're doing, because we're
trying to to to create anopportunity for people in
(18:21):
recovery, but we're also tryingto show the rest of the
community that recovering peoplearen't to be feared or Feared
or cast out, or they're normalpeople.
Delittled Right.
So you have people coming inhere and they're like, oh my
gosh, this is incredible.
Like, look at this.
And they'll look at the artwork.
And they're like, do you allsell this stuff?
(18:42):
And I'm like, do you want tobuy some?
Maybe that's your nextfundraiser, right there, you
know, I've been brainstormingand I'm just kind of letting it
come to me.
I'm I uh trying to trying to bejust slow with it and uh, but I
would only want to do that ifwe were able to take that.
So let's just say, uh, some, uh, a young mom in recovery, or
(19:04):
whomever you know was the, wasthe painter on that piece.
I would only do that kind of afundraiser if, if we could get
her some of the money too youknow what I mean like, yeah,
help her out.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
They saw some benefits from that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, that's what I mean yeah, brainstorming that,
trying to roll that around in myin my little head, uh, figure
out what that could look like.
But yeah, so we're doing allthat kind of stuff.
The other thing that I'llmention before throwing it back
to you for another question orsomething is so a lot of the
(19:36):
folks that we work with are inrecovery residences I used the
term halfway house a few minutesago, but the proper term is
recovery residents these daysand and so a lot of those folks
come here for support becauserecovery residences many of them
, they just they don't have alot of support built into it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It's more of a during the day they don't right
there's to do during the day.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It's just you know where they eat and sleep and and
do those kinds of basic thingsin a community environment.
So we have a lot of thoserecovery residence communities
kind of use this as theirdaytime home, which is fantastic
.
And that's what we were hopingfor.
And what we figured out is thatrecovery house managers often
don't know what they're doing.
(20:21):
They want to be helpful, but ifyou get, if you're living in a
recovery residence and thenyou're probably pretty young in
recovery themselves.
So usually it's just the personwho's the the with the most
sobriety, in the which it mightbe a day more than the next guy
or or whatever, and so a fewmonths clean, or six months or
(20:43):
maybe a year, but they'vecertainly not been having,
they've not had the opportunityto, to grow from a professional
standpoint.
They're not counselors, they'renot clinicians, they're not,
they're just they're not evenreally trained.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
peer support, I mean, you know what I mean Like
exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So what we did.
A lady named Ann Young, who wasmy right hand woman at the
residential facility I was at,and she, she told me early on
when I came over here.
She said, the moment, you havean opportunity for me, I'm
coming with you, so just call me.
And so I called her and she'sbeen here a little over a year
(21:22):
now.
And so I called her, and she'sbeen here a little over a year
now, but what?
She saw this opportunity andshe said hey, why don't we start
a house managers academy wherewe take these people in, because
we're working with 28 recoveryresidences?
And she said, why don't westart this academy?
And we'll put together acurriculum and we will teach
these people what peer supportis.
(21:44):
A curriculum.
And we will teach these peoplewhat peer support is.
They'll.
It will design a class, atraining academy, and they will
get a certificate at the end andand so we've put together a
curriculum and it's a 10 weekclass that they take.
We offer some in the evening,some in the mornings, but
basically they start.
You know, it's just like any,it's like a college course,
where you start with your groupand you finish with your group,
(22:06):
and and we teach these folkswhat they need to know to be the
to be the most helpful to theircommunity at their recovery
residence.
So it is trauma informed care.
It's very basic, you know.
I wouldn't say medical care butbut overdose reversal, because
those things happen in recoveryresidences.
So we have to train individualson how to reverse an overdose
(22:29):
and how to deal with mentalillness within that, because
that happens and things get outof hand.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
There's no such thing as addictions without mental
illness, in my opinion.
You know, by the time somebodysuffers at that great length,
yeah, they've got some stuff.
They're going through for sure.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So so you can imagine , you know 10 of the most
important topics that theseindividuals need to spend a
couple hours learning about andtalking about.
Um, that's what we're doing,and then we graduate these
classes.
We've had uh, I think we're onour sixth class right now, so
we've graduated like 64 people,I think, from that academy,
(23:09):
which is pretty remarkable.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That's awesome.
We need that in Asheville.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Here's what we're noticing.
Our goal was better outcomes inthe recovery residences and
that's happening.
We're helping them understandthat we're and this wasn't our
outset but that some of theirpolicies that they have in these
different homes aren'tconducive to.
You know, the reality is, ifyou're going to drug screen your
(23:35):
people which you should, youknow, if you're running a
recovery residence, you need todrug screen everybody, but you
probably shouldn't drug screenthem at 10 o'clock on a Friday
or Saturday night, because whathappens is when you get a
positive test now, you're forcedto deal with it right now and
you're going to put them out onthe street.
If that's your policy, you'regoing to kick them out at 10 or
(23:56):
11 o'clock on a Saturday nightand there they have nowhere to
go.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
They, you know you put you're just going to go down
the flume at that point.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
It's.
So we said let's look at whatdoes it look like to drug screen
at 8 or 9 am on a Saturday or aSunday.
You know what I mean that waythat if you do have a positive
test, then you have a whole dayto work with an individual on a
transition plan, on figuringthat out, and if they test
positive, if they're going totest positive on Saturday night,
(24:27):
they're going to test positiveon Sunday morning.
It's.
You're not missing, right,you're just you're helping
protect that individual.
So, anyway, just small stufflike that.
But then the other thing that'shappened that I didn't see
coming, which is really cool, isthat the outcomes for the
individuals who take so recoveryyou know house managers, they
(24:48):
relapse to Right, yeah, theyabsolutely do.
But but what's happened throughthis course is their recovery
rates are better because becausethey're getting, they're
getting trained and they'relearning some stuff, they're
applying it to themselves.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
And they have a community too.
I mean, you know, Yep.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So anyway, it's amazing stuff.
So anyway, I feel like I'vebeen talking nonstop.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I should no, well, I mean you know all that stuff is.
I mean I think you know thequestion I was asking about
what's this overlay?
We see a lot of these services.
We see a lot of services andyou see a lot of stuff and and
whistles and bells.
You know you got in in privatepay Right, and it sounds like
(25:34):
with many years of experience,um, that you've been able to
advise what is not, what is, youknow, serving people at the
bottom.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But with the same level of care.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Ultimately, dude we teach, we have, we have sober
yoga here, so there's nothingcooler than coming in here in an
on an afternoon during yogaclass that's led by a woman with
about 15 years clean, and shecouldn't get clean any other way
.
What?
What yoga did it for her?
Like she tried 12 steps, shetried church, she tried, you
know, she tried all the stuffand yoga was her, was her thing.
(26:11):
Like she's become all theselevels of certified yoga
instructor and that's what shedoes is.
She teaches sober yoga allaround Knoxville and so she
teaches a class here.
But when you, when she teachesthe class, you've got and this
is one of the most beautifulthings, when you're doing a yoga
class and I take the class, uh,as often as I'm able to and you
(26:33):
got people who drive in fromthe nicest parts of town and
their Lexus and park in theparking lot and then you got the
guy who pushes his his uhshopping cart from under the
bridge to come in here and doyoga side by side.
That is powerful.
It's really cool stuff that'scommunity right there man it's
what community uh, yeah, sowe're doing, we're doing some
(26:57):
really cool stuff, uh, and itjust continues to unfold.
Um, and so, yeah, you can havebells and whistles, but what
I've found is there's a lot ofpeople who, who, who have the
bells and whistles and who wantto contribute them, and that's
just as therapeutic for them tosay, hey, I would love to come
down and teach this, or teachthat there's a lady wanting to
(27:17):
start a Pilates class and youknow all the, and it's like,
dude, bring it on, like yeahwe'll make room.
It's really cool stuff, so,which I know is important to you
as well.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
So, yeah, oh yeah, well, a big question that I ask.
You know I get when weinterview folks on the show and
um.
You know I interview a lot offolks, a lot of docs that are
part of programs or directors orwhat have you not unlike you,
not unlike yourself, but youknow, in the private pay um
(27:54):
sector and talking abouttreatment and talking about care
and um, but I'll also interviewa lot of community folks and
folks that are providing, youknow, peer support, care, those
kinds of things, um, uh, localto our community and and outside
of it as well.
One of the things that I alwaysask about is you know, what is
(28:15):
it that?
What can we do to bring thesetwo worlds a little closer
together?
Where we make you want to makethe cool stuff accessible to
everybody, where we make, youknow, ultimately, residential
treatment, where it's needed,affordable and accessible to
everyone, quality care, you know, not just stripped away.
(28:35):
You know poorly funded orbarely funded, or you know, an
insurance game.
Where they're, you know, barebones in staff, they're bamboes
in programming, they're givingyou a partial product.
Ultimately, in my opinion, toturn and look at a center like
yours, even though it's notresidential, it's a community
(28:59):
resource center and it's onethat's firing on every cylinder.
You know what I mean.
Like it's you've got you've gotart classes, you got people
teaching yoga and you've gotyou're making the recovery,
you're making a strongerrecovery manager at sober, at
sober homes, or you knowrecovery residences in the
community and you've got peoplethat are at.
(29:21):
You know the accessibility,people who are in the
neighborhood know you're there,know, know what you do, might
get invited, might find theirway to recovery and, more
importantly, you know youultimately act as this resource
that does what I do for myclients, which is direct them
and find the quickest path tocare.
(29:42):
And find the quickest path tocare and that is one of the
largest barriers that you runinto in communities is people
who can't afford a consultant orsome kind of high-dollar
treatment or don't haveinsurance or don't have any
resources financially whatsoever, and they can come to you and
in 24 to 48 hours they can findtheir way to residential
(30:04):
treatment.
That you've eliminated a barrierthat, for the rest of the world
, I think is very real and quitesubstantial, and that you know
that.
That, to me, is miraculous.
Um, what do you see, uh, forthe future?
What is the like?
Let's put you know, I don'twant to age you prematurely, but
(30:28):
let's let's put 10 years on you, and, and let's say that you're
still in this role what are thedevelopments, not only in your
community, Senator, but in thegreater recovery and treatment
community?
What are the, what are thedevelopments you'd like to see
in bridging this gap that I'mtalking about, and how do you
think we're going to do it if weare?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So there there's a couple of ways, and some of
these things were already in themiddle of working on and
they're you know, they're longerterm projects.
But I think one of the thingsthat I've noticed in my time in
the industry is that when I Oneof the things that I've noticed
(31:15):
in my time in the industry isthat when I, when I first
started working in this field,the treatment centers were
primarily owned by families orthey were very small companies.
They were not owned by, I'lljust say, corporate firms.
Yes, most all of them are ownedby private equity now and they
talk a good game in terms ofwhat they're, what they're
trying to accomplish, but thereality is they're trying to
accomplish an EBITDA that isoutstanding so that they can
(31:39):
then turn around and sell agroup of centers to a larger
equity firm, then turn aroundand sell a group of centers to a
larger equity firm.
They're not interested inpatient outcomes, they're not
interested in staff development,they're not interested in some
of the things that I was reallyfortunate to get to work in
Right and are critical in myview and yours, I know too to
(32:01):
quality care.
Yeah, so so one of the thingsthat, uh, um, that really helped
me as I entered the field.
So when I started working at a,at a private facility, I um, I
was, you know, a little over ayear sober at the time and I was
, I was reevaluating life and Iwanted to do something that was
(32:22):
more meaningful than real estatedevelopment, which is what I'd
spent my previous career doing,and, um, and so what I said I
was, I was doing some volunteerwork at this place and they
finally said, well, I know, weknow you're looking for
something to do.
Why don't you come to work here?
And I said, well, I don't, I'mnot qualified, I don't have a
counseling degree, I don't youknow.
I mean, like I don't, I don'thave any letters.
(32:44):
Like I went to school, Icommunicate.
And they were like that's OK,we have our own internal
training program.
It's actually better that youcome here green, untrained,
untrained, because now we canteach you, we don't have to un,
you don't have to unlearntechniques and things that don't
, that aren't effective anddon't work Right.
So they had an internaltraining program that was
(33:05):
remarkable and I learned fromthe best clinicians.
Um, well, all that stuff hasgone away because all the
programs if you look at who'sI'll just say who's who, and
whether it's Asheville or theCarolina, any of the Carolinas,
tennessee, our region, whatevermost of the people who are, who
(33:27):
are exceptional in their, intheir work.
They started and they worked.
They spent some time in aresidential treatment center
where they learned a whole lotand then they took that.
Well, people aren't learningmuch there anymore because
they're not being trained.
They're literally not there.
The companies aren't reinvestingin them, they're not teaching
them any new skills, techniques,whatever.
(33:49):
So anyway, long story short isI want to start a training
institute for clinicians,because what I know is the
current ownership structure oftreatment centers is not going
to allow that to happen on theirdime.
They just won't do it.
They're not going to spendmoney improving their staff from
a skills perspective becausethey would rather just hire as
(34:11):
cheap as they can, and then, assoon as you want to make more
money, they'll let you go andthey'll hire somebody else, and
that's just.
That's just the name.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Right, right, um, I mean I you see that a lot across
the board where you know thethe pay scale person can make
more in private practice thanthey can.
Megan, you know working a lotmore hours with a lot more
responsibility, a lot morepaperwork and you get a lot of
this.
You know attrition that happensin the therapeutic sector or
(34:42):
privates and suddenly but it'slike what you say you never get
that 10-year clinician rightthat's been there since the
beginning or since however long,and themselves have served
hundreds of people, walked themthrough their recovery journey
(35:02):
at the stage of care that theyserve and then can turn around
and supervise and pass thatwisdom on.
I think that even when a personreally wants to do well, they
want to.
You know they want to developthemselves, they want to get
better at their job, they wantto do those things.
As a result of it not beingsponsored or it not being
(35:25):
available in very concerted ways, you get a hodgepodge that
lacks continuity.
So the person's done thisone-off training and this one
over here and a CE event overhere and these kinds of things,
but they don't know quite how toput it together and it doesn't
translate itself to real livedexperience doing the work and I
(35:52):
think we see that in theadolescent spectrum of treatment
.
I think we see it certainly inyoung adults.
I see it a little less in olderadults, because you tend to
find those people serving olderadults.
They are older adults andthey've got some experience
behind them.
But you see these things andwhat happens is that treatment
struggles with moving the needle.
(36:13):
I mean, I just had an interviewabout all this before, and if
you can't move the needle forsomeone because you're not
observing boundaries or settinglimits or doing some aspect of
the job that sounds nuanced butis critical to the role that you
play in a person's recoveryjourney recovery journey you
(36:37):
know you get a recoverycommunity that's not as prepared
to sustain their recovery, topass that magic on, to share
their own light and be a part ofa community that's holding each
other accountable.
I mean, you know it's theripple effect, right?
I love this.
You've already done it with therecovery managers, right?
The house managers.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So that's kind of our proof.
You know what I mean.
It's like hey, this works here,so let's do the same thing for
clinicians that work at allthese local centers and, and
they're, they're really greatpeople, they're entry-level
clinicians, they, they, theyhave the same heart as you do,
as I do, as we.
You know, we go into this fieldto help others and then they get
(37:15):
and it's real different becausethey don't learn any skills and
it's they learn that it's allabout insurance billing and that
it's all about this or that,and it's like wait, a minute,
this is not why I started doingthis.
So what we want to do is wewant to harness that passion
that they have to help othersand get them in front of the
people who can teach them.
Like you said before, we loseaccess to that.
(37:37):
We'll call it that ancientwisdom that came from before.
People who who know how to helppeople in that kind of a
setting.
You know, move on, pass away,retire and become unwilling to
participate.
We want to create a traininginstitute where we can work with
entry-level clinicians andbeyond and help people work
(38:00):
towards licensure, give themreally good training that's
consistent, and we're trying toset it up with a funding stream
that will actually not cost themanything, funding stream that
will actually not cost themanything.
Because when we do that is abarrier.
So, if you so, in Tennessee thelicense for the license you go
(38:25):
after is is called LADAC.
It's a license for alcohol anddrug abuse counselor.
Well, it can be reallyexpensive to get that because
you're having to pay supervisionhours, you're having to, you
know, you're having to taketrainings that might cost a
hundred bucks and you got totake a lot of them.
And if you know anything aboutentry-level clinicians and even
those who've been in residentialtreatment centers for a couple
of years, they're, they'reliving on poverty wages anyway,
(38:45):
they're.
They get hired in at 13 bucksan hour and off that school bill
.
Yeah and yeah, and so they'remaking 13, 15, maybe $17 an hour
and they're doing I mean, thattakes all of that just to feed
themselves, much less their,their families, if they have
them.
And so if we can say, hey,we've got funding for you, we
(39:07):
want you know, we want you, wewould train you, so we're, I
think.
So I think we got a pretty goodstrategy.
We just got some buttoning upto do and we're going to apply
for a pretty large grant thatwill allow us to do this work
and behavioral health, continuumof care and thus outcomes, and
(39:29):
so, whether it's opioidabatement funding that you know,
that is now available in allthe different states, and so
we're we're looking at somedifferent opportunities for
funding to do that.
But, yeah, we want to, we wantto improve outcomes and and we
want to improve people's livesand their and, honestly, their
ability to earn a good wage, andsometimes they just need some
(39:52):
education that they don't havethe money for.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
So we want a little extra, a little, a little nudge.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yep, so, uh.
So that's one thing, and thenthe other piece that we're
looking at and it's uh, is doingsome, some more significant
stuff with recovery, housing, um, and and trying to figure out
you know how to improve thatlandscape, because there's
there's opportunity there toimprove that landscape, because
there's opportunity there.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, there's opportunity there.
That's a nice way of saying it.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
It can be a real difficult thing the different
recovery residences and so justtrying to look at how we can
help positively impact thatlandscape doing some different
stuff there.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So Well, I'll tell you, webster, we, you know you
and I hadn't talked in a littlewhile, and you know you you
landed there pretty solidly andI spent enough time running
around visiting programs andthings like that.
I don't get to visit as manyresources such as yours as I
(40:58):
would like to, because I reallyenjoy them and I think that
they're the backbone of anychange that's going to happen in
the world.
Honestly, I'm going to get downthere and I want to see what
you've got going on.
I'm going to bring the wholecrew and we're just going to
come have a good time.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, anybody who's listening.
Man, if you want to come seesomething, that's really really
cool and I would invite you tocome over and visit us, spend a
day here, half a day or an hour,whatever time you got, come and
spend it with us.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Well, I'm going to come down there and we're going
to spend a little time Maybewe'll grab a little lunch or
something like that and I wantto talk about these ideas with
you.
They're cool, they've gottraction, they've got legs, and
you know any way that we canhelp.
I can help, I'd love to do it,but I sure do appreciate you.
I appreciate the work, the timejust to be on the show and
(41:50):
share this wonderful news.
I really, really do, and I lookforward to getting down there
and seeing you.
This has been Mental HealthMatters on WPBN 1037, the Voice
of Asheville, webster Bailey.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Thank you, todd, appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
We'll be with you next time.
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I found the illegal.
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I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
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(43:30):
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
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I found um Outro Music Bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
(43:51):
I need to find my way home.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I feel so lonely and lost in here.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I need to find my way home.
Find my way home.
Hello folks, welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
On WPBM 1037, the voice ofAsheville independent commercial
free radio, I am Todd Weatherly, your host, therapeutic
consultant, behavioral healthexpert.
With me today is a gentlemanI've known for many years now
crossed the line from us in EastTennessee.
Colleague and friend of mine,webster Bailey, joins us today.
(00:22):
Webster serves as the executivedirector for the Metro Drug
Coalition, the MDC.
After a 15-year career workingin private residential addiction
treatment, he joined the MDCfull-time in April 2023, serving
as director of development forone year to close out the
capital campaign for the GatewayRecovery Center.
(00:43):
Webster's career in thetreatment field was primarily
focused on business developmentand missions, but, as a person
in long-term recovery himself,he has dedicated his career to
helping others recover from thedisease of addiction.
Webster has had a long-standinginvolvement with MDC, dating
back to 2006,.
He was a member of the MDC'scommunity coalition from 2006 to
(01:06):
2012, and then a board memberfor eight years from 2012 to
2020, serving as a boardpresident from 2015 to 2017.
As a result of his dedicationand involvement in recovery work
as a residential treatment,webster is a repeated honoree in
his community.
In 2013, he received theCommunity Service Award from the
(01:29):
Tennessee Licensed ProfessionalCounselors Association, the
Recovery Services Award from theMetropolitan Drug Commission in
2014, and the PreventionChampion Award from the Blount
County Community Mental Healthor Community Health Initiative
in 2015.
In 2016, he was namedProfessional of the Year by the
East Tennessee Association ofAlcohol and Drug Abuse
(01:50):
Counselors, edac, and laterreceived their Lifetime
Achievement Award 2023.
Congratulations on all that,webster.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It's like I'm an all right guy from hearing you.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
You know, I tell you, it sounds pretty good to me.
Who is that guy?
I tell you it sounds prettygood to me.
Who is that guy?
And then, of course, thebiggest thing that you do is
help your wife, Robinella, bymanaging and promoting her music
and art career.
Serve as the board of directorsfor Clearfork Coal Company and
Prevectus Biopharmaceuticals,and in 2017, I didn't know this
you launched a new clothing andapparel line for recovering
(02:23):
people called Higher PoweredLifestyle Apparel Company.
That's cool, Webster.
Thanks for joining me andwelcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Todd.
It's good to be with you, man.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I'll tell you what Well you and I have known each
other.
A minute Gosh.
I think we met back in 2010,.
Maybe.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Certainly could have been.
It's been a while.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
It's been a while I think we got a decade on us at
least yeah, and you know, thething that I have always
appreciated about you is just,you know, honest sincerity.
You're a genuine and authenticperson, and I think that is
probably, if I was going to nameanything that it requires to do
(03:09):
recovery, well, I'd say that'sprobably it.
Um, and I and you know.
Just to just to talk about the,mdc is a non-profit
organization serving to createhealthy and safe community free
of substance misuse.
Uh servedved Knoxvillecommunity for 38 years.
The goal is to increase accessto evidence-based prevention,
(03:29):
education, harm reductionprograms and recovery support
services for anyone desiring tomaintain or seek a life free
from substance misuse.
And you guys are in the centerthat you you helped do the
fundraising for.
That's where your office is Isthat right?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I'm here right now.
Man, I'm up, I'm a, I'm in,like there's some office space
upstairs above a community room.
So below me I, you hopefullyyou can't hear it, but I can
there's people lifting weights.
Uh, there's people shooting andping pong, uh, all that you
know kind of stuff going onright now.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
So Was this a plan ahead?
Did you help fundraise for thebuilding and like?
I think I need to make a corneroffice for myself with this
thing.
I'm not that smart, Todd.
Okay, Me either, Um.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
That sounds like a game of chess.
I'm a more of a checkers player.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I heard that, um, well, you know, I think I think
a day at a time is probably nota bad way to go anyhow.
Uh, and you know for me and Icome pretty strongly from the,
from the mental health side andthen with a, you know there's
this large population of peoplethat that sits right there in
the co-occurring.
You know they suffer mentalhealth conditions, they have
substance misuse as part of sitsright there and they're
(04:46):
co-occurring.
You know they suffer frommental health conditions, they
have substance misuse as part oftheir story and their you know
their recovery can becomplicated and it certainly can
come with heartache and tragedy.
That you and I have both seenin these communities time and
time again.
And you know one of the thingsthat we all know, and I think
that if you dig very far,community is a.
(05:07):
There's a saying for atreatment company that's out
there that community is theintervention and the solution.
And so you know the one thingthat we lost with some of the
legislation some of the thingsthat happened across the country
and everything else in mentalhealth were clubhouses.
You lost these communitycenters where people who felt
(05:32):
kind of estranged and felt likethey were different could come
and find community and do thingslike that.
And it sounds to me, eventhough your population is a
little different, the MDC isvery much like that.
It's this community centerwhere people can come find
community, they can findeducation, they can find care,
they can continue their recoveryjourney however they landed on
(05:57):
it or started it and then findpeople like you with many years
in recovery and know that thatstory is out there and know that
that's something that'spossible.
What is it like coming from?
I'm really interested in theanswer to this question.
What is it like coming from theprivate pay residential
treatment side, you know where,you know insurance billing and
(06:18):
people paying out of pocket andthings like that into a
community resource like the MDC?
What do you see as the bigdifferences in terms of, you
know, organization, programming,leadership and all that stuff?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, there are a lot of vast differences, todd, and
then there's also some, probablysome surprising similarities
too.
The difference is really, Iwill say, in some way shape or
form, and this is by virtue ofthe work we're doing, but also
by the location that we decidedto build and to create this
(06:53):
place we are in, located inbasically a corner of downtown
Knoxville, in what people wouldconsider to be the most
dangerous and worst part of ourcommunity.
We are in Homeless Central.
That is right where we locatedourselves.
So the mission, the overnight,you know, missions across the
(07:17):
street, the rescue mission, andthen you've got all these
housing agencies, and so we'reright in the middle of the
homeless encampments and allthat kind of stuff.
And so what I would sayinitially, the first difference
is, while there's desperationand heartache in private pay,
(07:37):
private treatment centers,there's a different level of it.
What we're doing right nowthese know, these are the folks
maybe went to places that I usedto work and other for-profit
agencies and treatment centers.
You know, some five years ago,10 years ago, 20 years ago, and,
for whatever reason, theirrecovery, I'll just say, didn't
(07:58):
take, for lack of a better term,and they continue to lose more
and more and more stuff.
And so we're we're servingpeople who are, who are
literally at the bottom.
You know what I mean?
There's, there's, the onlyplace to go down from here is
death and uh, and so we'retrying to to to work with those
individuals and help them findfind some hope, um, so I mean.
(08:22):
So the difference is the levelof desperation.
The difference is the level offlexibility that we get to have
in how we do things and how weshape the culture of our
community center.
So this is a place whereeverybody gets to be themselves,
and you get that to some degreein a treatment center setting
(08:45):
as well.
But we are we're absolutely nota treatment center.
We are a recovery communitieswhere people walk through our
door, sometimes after just usingin the alley behind our
building, or maybe they're dopesick or they're going into
withdraw from whatever substancethey've been using, and they
(09:06):
say, hey, I heard you guys couldhelp me here.
I need detox, I need you know.
And then they just kind of tellus what their needs are.
And we are really fortunate.
We're kind of like a Swiss armyknife in that we have different
tools to meet people where theyare, different tools to meet
people where they are and itmight be that they have no money
(09:26):
, no insurance, no ability toreally care for themselves, but
they want help and so we've gota person whose position is to
coordinate all of that care.
And so we maintainrelationships across the state
of Tennessee, because all of ourfunding within Tennessee.
If you're going to help someoneaccess a grant bed, they've got
(09:48):
to be a resident of the stateof Tennessee.
You know so.
But we we maintain relationshipsat all of these places and
we're able to get people who aredesperate with without any
money in their pocket and noinsurance policy.
We're getting them in treatment24 to 48, sometimes less,
sometimes it's on the moment.
(10:10):
And that's coming from a placewhere, in our community, it was
typical to have a four to sixmonth waiting list so that if
you were to be that personpicking up the phone call and
saying, hey, I need help, I needa grant bed, they'd get you on
a waiting list and they'd callyou in four to six months.
And now we're making that 24 to48 hours on a regular basis and
(10:31):
that's pretty cool to be ableto help those folks that really
don't have anywhere else to turn.
We rely a lot on volunteerismhere, and that's volunteerism
that comes primarily through therecovering community, but also
through a variety of channels.
It's really amazing.
So when we started doing this,you had the Knox County
Probation Department, you havethe Recovery Court, all these
(10:54):
governmental agencies who are,you know, tend to be more.
You know, their approach tendsto be more coming from a
judicial standpoint.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
They're a little more punitive over there.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Absolutely.
But they love what we're doingand they send all their people
here to get their volunteerhours and to, because they know
that while they're here doingvolunteerism, they're also going
.
Recovery is going to rub off onthem, naturally it does, and so
we've got folks here who youknow walk in and they're,
they're, they're volunteeringand they they don't even know
(11:27):
where they're coming.
They're just coming herebecause they got to do eight
hours or 20 hours or 100 hours,and and then by the end they,
they identify themselves in adifferent way.
You know what I mean, like interms of whether it's recovery
or just more knowledgeable aboutthe whole recovery, uh,
movement and lifestyle.
(11:48):
So so that's really um we Iwant to tell you about.
Can I?
Can I just tell you about someof the different things that
happen?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
yeah, absolutely.
I want to know all about itplease again.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
So it kind of goes back to that old, that older.
You know, when we were kids,like you, had community centers
they were.
You know that's, we were kidslike you, had community centers
they were, you know, normal andnatural.
We're learning how to playbasketball yeah.
So so that was the idea we took.
As this idea was coming to MDCit was.
There were some other agenciesaround the country doing a
(12:22):
really good job of doing thiskind of work.
One of them's in Marietta,georgia, and it's called the
Zone.
One's in Sandusky, ohio, andit's called the Artisan Center,
and so we did field trips and wewent and looked at these places
and tried to get a feel forwhat is it that they're doing
here and is this translatable?
Does this make sense to do inKnoxville?
(12:42):
Because what we know, and knowthis as well as anybody, is we
can, we can pick people up offthe ground and send.
When they discharge fromtreatment successfully and they
(13:06):
get the coin and everybody says,man, you're going to do great,
you've done awesome in treatment, and we send them home.
If we don't help themtransition into a new recovering
, supportive community in theirhome area.
They might make it a day or twoor a week or a month or you
know.
But but if, if nothing changes,nothing changes Right In terms
(13:30):
of how they spend their time,what?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
they short lived.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, so the goal here was to create a, a bridge,
basically a gateway, if you will, into this new lifestyle.
And so we, when, um, when you,if you were to walk uh
downstairs, uh, right now, you'dencounter people who are a day
clean, a year clean, a decadeclean an hour clean.
(13:55):
Yeah, and still, probably somestill using, you know, not
flagrantly, obviously we don't.
We try to create a safe spaceand environment.
You know what I mean.
But, um, obviously we don't wetry to create a safe space and
environment.
You know what I mean, but butyeah.
(14:16):
So I mean, there's, the magichappens when you're able to put
people together and you're ableto help just make connections
between people, and thattransfer of spiritual, what have
you happens, that that transferof knowledge and connection is
what is what brings people back.
And so we kind of we functionas a resource center and, like I
said, you can walk in and youcan say I need treatment, and
we're going to get you intotreatment really quick.
Or you can walk in and say, hey, I need help figuring out how
(14:40):
to get my driver's license back.
I don't, you know, I've got topay these fines, I got to do
these things.
So we'll actually assign you,free of charge, a recovery coach
and that's somebody who willbasically it's not case
management, it's, it's a.
We use a credential calledcertified recovery coaching out
of Connecticut and we use thatmodel and and and so we'll
(15:00):
basically help you figure outwhat your recovery plan looks
like and then we meet with youweekly or a couple of times a
week or as much as it takes, tohelp you achieve these goals
that you have for yourself.
We, we host 12 step meetingshere.
We host other recovery meetingsthat are not 12 step based.
We're trying to be that nowrong door.
(15:21):
So if 12 steps are not yourthing but you're into Dharma
recovery, well come on.
We got that too.
We do.
We, you know, we've, we've donea lot of those things.
We teach art classes.
I wish I could show you some ofthe art that we have.
So we've got an incredibleteacher instructor here who
teaches a few art classes a weekand and usually it's usually
(15:43):
the people in his class or are,uh, they're, they're in a
halfway house, they're notworking, yet they come here to
spend their time because intheir halfway house they've,
they're, you know they're saying, hey, if you don't have a job,
then you need to be over at thegateway, going to meetings,
working with a recovery coach,doing those kinds of things.
We've been really fortunate tobuild great relationships with
recovery residences in Knoxvilleand uh, and so you'll get these
(16:06):
, you know, burly guys who haveno interest in art whatsoever
and now they're sitting in anart class in front of an easel
with a blank canvas and a bunchof you know oils and all.
I mean we have all thematerials.
It's really great.
Our community has really showedup and and every time we have a
need for something, peoplebring it over.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
It's pretty remarkable, um but is that some
of the hanging on your wall backthere?
You got a little bit probablythat one's.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Uh, that was a barter deal that actually came from a
lady in North Carolina, believeit or not, all right.
And, uh, we traded a piece forthat piece.
But there's stuff downstairsthat that's equally as cool as
that.
But anyway, so Denver'sapproach.
Denver is our instructor,denver Johnson's name.
He's amazing.
And he'll sit down with thesemen or these women and say, you
(16:55):
know, and they're like, I don'tknow how to paint, I don't know
what I'm doing.
And he says, that's OK, I dojust do what I do.
And so you know, there'll be animage that they're going to
paint up on the wall.
It'll be a landscape orsomething.
He says this is our subject forthe day and he starts doing his
little.
We call him little Bobby Ross.
You know he'll start doing astroke here and a stroke there
(17:18):
and he's like, ok, y'all just dowhat I do, follow me.
And then you know, 30 minutesinto that process, their
painting is taking shape andit's looking like something.
And it's like they've surprisedthemselves even on what it
looks like.
And then he turns to them andhe says something like you know,
recovery works the same way.
(17:38):
You don't experience with it,but when you find somebody who
knows what they're doing and youjust do what they do, then you
get what they got.
You know what I mean, and so itmakes that very relatable to
the.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
That's incredible.
I love that story man.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
They come back the next day and they're like can we
take another art class?
You know what I mean next dayand they're like can we take
another art class?
Answers are literally full ofartwork that are.
That is gorgeous, and peopleare when people come, like the
mayor comes here and the countymayor, the city mayor, like a
lot of people, really love whatwe're doing, because we're
trying to to to create anopportunity for people in
(18:21):
recovery, but we're also tryingto show the rest of the
community that recovering peoplearen't to be feared or Feared
or cast out, or they're normalpeople.
Delittled Right.
So you have people coming inhere and they're like, oh my
gosh, this is incredible.
Like, look at this.
And they'll look at the artwork.
And they're like, do you allsell this stuff?
(18:42):
And I'm like, do you want tobuy some?
Maybe that's your nextfundraiser, right there, you
know, I've been brainstormingand I'm just kind of letting it
come to me.
I'm I uh trying to trying to bejust slow with it and uh, but I
would only want to do that ifwe were able to take that.
So let's just say, uh, some, uh, a young mom in recovery, or
(19:04):
whomever you know was the, wasthe painter on that piece.
I would only do that kind of afundraiser if, if we could get
her some of the money too youknow what I mean like, yeah,
help her out.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
They saw some benefits from that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, that's what I mean yeah, brainstorming that,
trying to roll that around in myin my little head, uh, figure
out what that could look like.
But yeah, so we're doing allthat kind of stuff.
The other thing that I'llmention before throwing it back
to you for another question orsomething is so a lot of the
(19:36):
folks that we work with are inrecovery residences I used the
term halfway house a few minutesago, but the proper term is
recovery residents these daysand and so a lot of those folks
come here for support becauserecovery residences many of them
, they just they don't have alot of support built into it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
It's more of a during the day they don't right
there's to do during the day.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
It's just you know where they eat and sleep and and
do those kinds of basic thingsin a community environment.
So we have a lot of thoserecovery residence communities
kind of use this as theirdaytime home, which is fantastic
.
And that's what we were hopingfor.
And what we figured out is thatrecovery house managers often
don't know what they're doing.
(20:21):
They want to be helpful, but ifyou get, if you're living in a
recovery residence and thenyou're probably pretty young in
recovery themselves.
So usually it's just the personwho's the the with the most
sobriety, in the which it mightbe a day more than the next guy
or or whatever, and so a fewmonths clean, or six months or
(20:43):
maybe a year, but they'vecertainly not been having,
they've not had the opportunityto, to grow from a professional
standpoint.
They're not counselors, they'renot clinicians, they're not,
they're just they're not evenreally trained.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
peer support, I mean, you know what I mean Like
exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
So what we did.
A lady named Ann Young, who wasmy right hand woman at the
residential facility I was at,and she, she told me early on
when I came over here.
She said, the moment, you havean opportunity for me, I'm
coming with you, so just call me.
And so I called her and she'sbeen here a little over a year
(21:22):
now.
And so I called her, and she'sbeen here a little over a year
now, but what?
She saw this opportunity andshe said hey, why don't we start
a house managers academy wherewe take these people in, because
we're working with 28 recoveryresidences?
And she said, why don't westart this academy?
And we'll put together acurriculum and we will teach
these people what peer supportis.
(21:44):
A curriculum.
And we will teach these peoplewhat peer support is.
They'll.
It will design a class, atraining academy, and they will
get a certificate at the end andand so we've put together a
curriculum and it's a 10 weekclass that they take.
We offer some in the evening,some in the mornings, but
basically they start.
You know, it's just like any,it's like a college course,
where you start with your groupand you finish with your group,
(22:06):
and and we teach these folkswhat they need to know to be the
to be the most helpful to theircommunity at their recovery
residence.
So it is trauma informed care.
It's very basic, you know.
I wouldn't say medical care butbut overdose reversal, because
those things happen in recoveryresidences.
So we have to train individualson how to reverse an overdose
(22:29):
and how to deal with mentalillness within that, because
that happens and things get outof hand.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
There's no such thing as addictions without mental
illness, in my opinion.
You know, by the time somebodysuffers at that great length,
yeah, they've got some stuff.
They're going through for sure.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So so you can imagine , you know 10 of the most
important topics that theseindividuals need to spend a
couple hours learning about andtalking about.
Um, that's what we're doing,and then we graduate these
classes.
We've had uh, I think we're onour sixth class right now, so
we've graduated like 64 people,I think, from that academy,
(23:09):
which is pretty remarkable.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That's awesome.
We need that in Asheville.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Here's what we're noticing.
Our goal was better outcomes inthe recovery residences and
that's happening.
We're helping them understandthat we're and this wasn't our
outset but that some of theirpolicies that they have in these
different homes aren'tconducive to.
You know, the reality is, ifyou're going to drug screen your
(23:35):
people which you should, youknow, if you're running a
recovery residence, you need todrug screen everybody, but you
probably shouldn't drug screenthem at 10 o'clock on a Friday
or Saturday night, because whathappens is when you get a
positive test now, you're forcedto deal with it right now and
you're going to put them out onthe street.
If that's your policy, you'regoing to kick them out at 10 or
(23:56):
11 o'clock on a Saturday nightand there they have nowhere to
go.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
They, you know you put you're just going to go down
the flume at that point.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
It's.
So we said let's look at whatdoes it look like to drug screen
at 8 or 9 am on a Saturday or aSunday.
You know what I mean that waythat if you do have a positive
test, then you have a whole dayto work with an individual on a
transition plan, on figuringthat out, and if they test
positive, if they're going totest positive on Saturday night,
(24:27):
they're going to test positiveon Sunday morning.
It's.
You're not missing, right,you're just you're helping
protect that individual.
So, anyway, just small stufflike that.
But then the other thing that'shappened that I didn't see
coming, which is really cool, isthat the outcomes for the
individuals who take so recoveryyou know house managers, they
(24:48):
relapse to Right, yeah, theyabsolutely do.
But but what's happened throughthis course is their recovery
rates are better because becausethey're getting, they're
getting trained and they'relearning some stuff, they're
applying it to themselves.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
And they have a community too.
I mean, you know, Yep.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
So anyway, it's amazing stuff.
So anyway, I feel like I'vebeen talking nonstop.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
I should no, well, I mean you know all that stuff is.
I mean I think you know thequestion I was asking about
what's this overlay?
We see a lot of these services.
We see a lot of services andyou see a lot of stuff and and
whistles and bells.
You know you got in in privatepay Right, and it sounds like
(25:34):
with many years of experience,um, that you've been able to
advise what is not, what is, youknow, serving people at the
bottom.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
But with the same level of care.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Ultimately, dude we teach, we have, we have sober
yoga here, so there's nothingcooler than coming in here in an
on an afternoon during yogaclass that's led by a woman with
about 15 years clean, and shecouldn't get clean any other way
.
What?
What yoga did it for her?
Like she tried 12 steps, shetried church, she tried, you
know, she tried all the stuffand yoga was her, was her thing.
(26:11):
Like she's become all theselevels of certified yoga
instructor and that's what shedoes is.
She teaches sober yoga allaround Knoxville and so she
teaches a class here.
But when you, when she teachesthe class, you've got and this
is one of the most beautifulthings, when you're doing a yoga
class and I take the class, uh,as often as I'm able to and you
(26:33):
got people who drive in fromthe nicest parts of town and
their Lexus and park in theparking lot and then you got the
guy who pushes his his uhshopping cart from under the
bridge to come in here and doyoga side by side.
That is powerful.
It's really cool stuff that'scommunity right there man it's
what community uh, yeah, sowe're doing, we're doing some
(26:57):
really cool stuff, uh, and itjust continues to unfold.
Um, and so, yeah, you can havebells and whistles, but what
I've found is there's a lot ofpeople who, who, who have the
bells and whistles and who wantto contribute them, and that's
just as therapeutic for them tosay, hey, I would love to come
down and teach this, or teachthat there's a lady wanting to
(27:17):
start a Pilates class and youknow all the, and it's like,
dude, bring it on, like yeahwe'll make room.
It's really cool stuff, so,which I know is important to you
as well.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
So, yeah, oh yeah, well, a big question that I ask.
You know I get when weinterview folks on the show and
um.
You know I interview a lot offolks, a lot of docs that are
part of programs or directors orwhat have you not unlike you,
not unlike yourself, but youknow, in the private pay um
(27:54):
sector and talking abouttreatment and talking about care
and um, but I'll also interviewa lot of community folks and
folks that are providing, youknow, peer support, care, those
kinds of things, um, uh, localto our community and and outside
of it as well.
One of the things that I alwaysask about is you know, what is
(28:15):
it that?
What can we do to bring thesetwo worlds a little closer
together?
Where we make you want to makethe cool stuff accessible to
everybody, where we make, youknow, ultimately, residential
treatment, where it's needed,affordable and accessible to
everyone, quality care, you know, not just stripped away.
(28:35):
You know poorly funded orbarely funded, or you know, an
insurance game.
Where they're, you know, barebones in staff, they're bamboes
in programming, they're givingyou a partial product.
Ultimately, in my opinion, toturn and look at a center like
yours, even though it's notresidential, it's a community
(28:59):
resource center and it's onethat's firing on every cylinder.
You know what I mean.
Like it's you've got you've gotart classes, you got people
teaching yoga and you've gotyou're making the recovery,
you're making a strongerrecovery manager at sober, at
sober homes, or you knowrecovery residences in the
community and you've got peoplethat are at.
(29:21):
You know the accessibility,people who are in the
neighborhood know you're there,know, know what you do, might
get invited, might find theirway to recovery and, more
importantly, you know youultimately act as this resource
that does what I do for myclients, which is direct them
and find the quickest path tocare.
(29:42):
And find the quickest path tocare and that is one of the
largest barriers that you runinto in communities is people
who can't afford a consultant orsome kind of high-dollar
treatment or don't haveinsurance or don't have any
resources financially whatsoever, and they can come to you and
in 24 to 48 hours they can findtheir way to residential
(30:04):
treatment.
That you've eliminated a barrierthat, for the rest of the world
, I think is very real and quitesubstantial, and that you know
that.
That, to me, is miraculous.
Um, what do you see, uh, forthe future?
What is the like?
Let's put you know, I don'twant to age you prematurely, but
(30:28):
let's let's put 10 years on you, and, and let's say that you're
still in this role what are thedevelopments, not only in your
community, Senator, but in thegreater recovery and treatment
community?
What are the, what are thedevelopments you'd like to see
in bridging this gap that I'mtalking about, and how do you
think we're going to do it if weare?
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So there there's a couple of ways, and some of
these things were already in themiddle of working on and
they're you know, they're longerterm projects.
But I think one of the thingsthat I've noticed in my time in
the industry is that when I Oneof the things that I've noticed
(31:15):
in my time in the industry isthat when I, when I first
started working in this field,the treatment centers were
primarily owned by families orthey were very small companies.
They were not owned by, I'lljust say, corporate firms.
Yes, most all of them are ownedby private equity now and they
talk a good game in terms ofwhat they're, what they're
trying to accomplish, but thereality is they're trying to
accomplish an EBITDA that isoutstanding so that they can
(31:39):
then turn around and sell agroup of centers to a larger
equity firm, then turn aroundand sell a group of centers to a
larger equity firm.
They're not interested inpatient outcomes, they're not
interested in staff development,they're not interested in some
of the things that I was reallyfortunate to get to work in
Right and are critical in myview and yours, I know too to
(32:01):
quality care.
Yeah, so so one of the thingsthat, uh, um, that really helped
me as I entered the field.
So when I started working at a,at a private facility, I um, I
was, you know, a little over ayear sober at the time and I was
, I was reevaluating life and Iwanted to do something that was
(32:22):
more meaningful than real estatedevelopment, which is what I'd
spent my previous career doing,and, um, and so what I said I
was, I was doing some volunteerwork at this place and they
finally said, well, I know, weknow you're looking for
something to do.
Why don't you come to work here?
And I said, well, I don't, I'mnot qualified, I don't have a
counseling degree, I don't youknow.
I mean, like I don't, I don'thave any letters.
(32:44):
Like I went to school, Icommunicate.
And they were like that's OK,we have our own internal
training program.
It's actually better that youcome here green, untrained,
untrained, because now we canteach you, we don't have to un,
you don't have to unlearntechniques and things that don't
, that aren't effective anddon't work Right.
So they had an internaltraining program that was
(33:05):
remarkable and I learned fromthe best clinicians.
Um, well, all that stuff hasgone away because all the
programs if you look at who'sI'll just say who's who, and
whether it's Asheville or theCarolina, any of the Carolinas,
tennessee, our region, whatevermost of the people who are, who
(33:27):
are exceptional in their, intheir work.
They started and they worked.
They spent some time in aresidential treatment center
where they learned a whole lotand then they took that.
Well, people aren't learningmuch there anymore because
they're not being trained.
They're literally not there.
The companies aren't reinvestingin them, they're not teaching
them any new skills, techniques,whatever.
(33:49):
So anyway, long story short isI want to start a training
institute for clinicians,because what I know is the
current ownership structure oftreatment centers is not going
to allow that to happen on theirdime.
They just won't do it.
They're not going to spendmoney improving their staff from
a skills perspective becausethey would rather just hire as
(34:11):
cheap as they can, and then, assoon as you want to make more
money, they'll let you go andthey'll hire somebody else, and
that's just.
That's just the name.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Right, right, um, I mean I you see that a lot across
the board where you know thethe pay scale person can make
more in private practice thanthey can.
Megan, you know working a lotmore hours with a lot more
responsibility, a lot morepaperwork and you get a lot of
this.
You know attrition that happensin the therapeutic sector or
(34:42):
privates and suddenly but it'slike what you say you never get
that 10-year clinician rightthat's been there since the
beginning or since however long,and themselves have served
hundreds of people, walked themthrough their recovery journey
(35:02):
at the stage of care that theyserve and then can turn around
and supervise and pass thatwisdom on.
I think that even when a personreally wants to do well, they
want to.
You know they want to developthemselves, they want to get
better at their job, they wantto do those things.
As a result of it not beingsponsored or it not being
(35:25):
available in very concerted ways, you get a hodgepodge that
lacks continuity.
So the person's done thisone-off training and this one
over here and a CE event overhere and these kinds of things,
but they don't know quite how toput it together and it doesn't
translate itself to real livedexperience doing the work and I
(35:52):
think we see that in theadolescent spectrum of treatment
.
I think we see it certainly inyoung adults.
I see it a little less in olderadults, because you tend to
find those people serving olderadults.
They are older adults andthey've got some experience
behind them.
But you see these things andwhat happens is that treatment
struggles with moving the needle.
(36:13):
I mean, I just had an interviewabout all this before, and if
you can't move the needle forsomeone because you're not
observing boundaries or settinglimits or doing some aspect of
the job that sounds nuanced butis critical to the role that you
play in a person's recoveryjourney recovery journey you
(36:37):
know you get a recoverycommunity that's not as prepared
to sustain their recovery, topass that magic on, to share
their own light and be a part ofa community that's holding each
other accountable.
I mean, you know it's theripple effect, right?
I love this.
You've already done it with therecovery managers, right?
The house managers.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
So that's kind of our proof.
You know what I mean.
It's like hey, this works here,so let's do the same thing for
clinicians that work at allthese local centers and, and
they're, they're really greatpeople, they're entry-level
clinicians, they, they, theyhave the same heart as you do,
as I do, as we.
You know, we go into this fieldto help others and then they get
(37:15):
and it's real different becausethey don't learn any skills and
it's they learn that it's allabout insurance billing and that
it's all about this or that,and it's like wait, a minute,
this is not why I started doingthis.
So what we want to do is wewant to harness that passion
that they have to help othersand get them in front of the
people who can teach them.
Like you said before, we loseaccess to that.
(37:37):
We'll call it that ancientwisdom that came from before.
People who who know how to helppeople in that kind of a
setting.
You know, move on, pass away,retire and become unwilling to
participate.
We want to create a traininginstitute where we can work with
entry-level clinicians andbeyond and help people work
(38:00):
towards licensure, give themreally good training that's
consistent, and we're trying toset it up with a funding stream
that will actually not cost themanything, funding stream that
will actually not cost themanything.
Because when we do that is abarrier.
So, if you so, in Tennessee thelicense for the license you go
(38:25):
after is is called LADAC.
It's a license for alcohol anddrug abuse counselor.
Well, it can be reallyexpensive to get that because
you're having to pay supervisionhours, you're having to, you
know, you're having to taketrainings that might cost a
hundred bucks and you got totake a lot of them.
And if you know anything aboutentry-level clinicians and even
those who've been in residentialtreatment centers for a couple
of years, they're, they'reliving on poverty wages anyway,
(38:45):
they're.
They get hired in at 13 bucksan hour and off that school bill
.
Yeah and yeah, and so they'remaking 13, 15, maybe $17 an hour
and they're doing I mean, thattakes all of that just to feed
themselves, much less their,their families, if they have
them.
And so if we can say, hey,we've got funding for you, we
(39:07):
want you know, we want you, wewould train you, so we're, I
think.
So I think we got a pretty goodstrategy.
We just got some buttoning upto do and we're going to apply
for a pretty large grant thatwill allow us to do this work
and behavioral health, continuumof care and thus outcomes, and
(39:29):
so, whether it's opioidabatement funding that you know,
that is now available in allthe different states, and so
we're we're looking at somedifferent opportunities for
funding to do that.
But, yeah, we want to, we wantto improve outcomes and and we
want to improve people's livesand their and, honestly, their
ability to earn a good wage, andsometimes they just need some
(39:52):
education that they don't havethe money for.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
So we want a little extra, a little, a little nudge.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yep, so, uh.
So that's one thing, and thenthe other piece that we're
looking at and it's uh, is doingsome, some more significant
stuff with recovery, housing, um, and and trying to figure out
you know how to improve thatlandscape, because there's
there's opportunity there toimprove that landscape, because
there's opportunity there.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah, there's opportunity there.
That's a nice way of saying it.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
It can be a real difficult thing the different
recovery residences and so justtrying to look at how we can
help positively impact thatlandscape doing some different
stuff there.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
So Well, I'll tell you, webster, we, you know you
and I hadn't talked in a littlewhile, and you know you you
landed there pretty solidly andI spent enough time running
around visiting programs andthings like that.
I don't get to visit as manyresources such as yours as I
(40:58):
would like to, because I reallyenjoy them and I think that
they're the backbone of anychange that's going to happen in
the world.
Honestly, I'm going to get downthere and I want to see what
you've got going on.
I'm going to bring the wholecrew and we're just going to
come have a good time.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, anybody who's listening.
Man, if you want to come seesomething, that's really really
cool and I would invite you tocome over and visit us, spend a
day here, half a day or an hour,whatever time you got, come and
spend it with us.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Well, I'm going to come down there and we're going
to spend a little time Maybewe'll grab a little lunch or
something like that and I wantto talk about these ideas with
you.
They're cool, they've gottraction, they've got legs, and
you know any way that we canhelp.
I can help, I'd love to do it,but I sure do appreciate you.
I appreciate the work, the timejust to be on the show and
(41:50):
share this wonderful news.
I really, really do, and I lookforward to getting down there
and seeing you.
This has been Mental HealthMatters on WPBN 1037, the Voice
of Asheville, webster Bailey.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Thank you, todd, appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
We'll be with you next time.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
(43:30):
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found the illegal.
I found um Outro Music Bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
(43:51):
I need to find my way home.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I feel so lonely and lost in here.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I need to find my way home.
Find my way home.
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