January 7, 2025 • 38 mins
Can family dynamics make or break a young man's recovery journey? Vince Benevento, director and founder of Causeway Collaborative, joins us to unravel his personal and professional experiences in creating supportive environments for young men in recovery trying to get a launch on life. From his early days as an in-home therapist to establishing a full-fledged organization, Vince sheds light on the urgency to address educational and vocational gaps, while offering insights into reaching those resistant to traditional therapy methods. His fascinating journey reveals the transformative power of building therapeutic spaces that extend beyond conventional approaches.
The path to recovery is rarely straightforward, and our conversation delves into the rollercoaster ride of adolescent and young adult recovery. We share the story of a young man whose journey is marked by relapses and the essential role that family dynamics play in his healing process. The societal misconceptions surrounding recovery milestones are put under the microscope as we discuss the importance of supportive communities and meaningful activities in maintaining long-term sobriety. Practical strategies for families to set realistic expectations and foster open communication are explored, highlighting their critical role in ensuring sustained recovery and personal growth.
As we navigate the complexities of parenting teenagers, the discussion shifts to the evolving roles of parents as their children mature and strive for independence. We reflect on the unique challenges that come with granting autonomy and how to foster genuine connections with young adults. The chapter on post-pandemic parental expectations sheds light on the intensified pressures faced by families during this period, emphasizing the need for strong parent-child relationships amid shifting academic and social landscapes. Join us as we unravel these intricate dynamics and offer insights to guide families through the challenges of modern parenting.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, once again to Mental
Health Horizons.
On WPM 1037, the Voice ofAsheville.
This is Todd Weatherly, yourhost, mental health treatment
consultant and behavioral healthprofessional.
I am here today with Mr VinceBenavito.
Vince is the director andfounder of Causeway
Collaborative leading, providingdirect service for all three
(00:22):
specialized teams.
A licensed professionalcounselor holds a BA in
psychology from WesleyanUniversity and an MA in school
counseling from FairfieldUniversity Same as my wife, but
here in the Carolinas.
Actually, vince began his careeras an in-home therapist for
adolescents and families at theWheeler Clinic in Plainville,
connecticut, a regionalbehavioral health services
provider.
From there, he entered thecorporate world, where he worked
(00:44):
as a professional recruiter andhoned career counseling skills.
With these valuable experiences, vince transitioned back to
individual community-basedcounseling as an employment
specialist at the Kennedy Center, one of Connecticut's largest,
most highly regarded communityorganizations.
At the Kennedy Center, vinceworked to find meaningful jobs
for unemployed adults withpsychiatric diagnoses and
criminal histories.
I did the same for thecommunity college in our area.
(01:06):
This is going to be a funconversation.
He joined Freudman and Billingsin the 2010 Educational
Therapist and completed ayear-long internship in the
Weston High School GuidanceDepartment, re-initiated and
co-led weekly support groups forat-risk students in 2012.
Vince has brought all theseskills together and experiences
to start the CausewayCollaborative, which serves
(01:29):
young men who are transitioningand needing to find their way,
probably in recovery from notonly mental health disorders but
also substance use disorders,needing that coaching, support
and vocational support in thelocal community in Connecticut
and, you know, with a team oftrained professionals, coaches
(01:49):
and therapists that help themfind their way after they've
come out of residentialtreatment.
Is that a pretty accuratedescription?
Man?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, that's pretty right on.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And I'll say this you know, you and I got connected
through a doc that we both knowand appreciate, who's in Dr
Santo Piedra is a highlyregarded psychiatrist in the
area and he can't say, he can'tsay enough about you guys.
We've got a, we've got at leastone client coming your way and
have started working together alittle bit.
I got to tell you that's aperson who started an
(02:23):
organization that's got somesimilarities in the local area
and then handed it off to thetherapist that's there, like
what you guys are doing is.
We need so much more of it.
Thank you.
Yeah, we just we just need somuch more of it because young
men and women they need thiskind of support.
I always say that that it maybe one of the most vulnerable
(02:45):
times you have is coming out ofresidential treatment, so that
step down, transitional step, isreally important.
The next most vulnerable time,and maybe even more vulnerable,
is when you actually step backinto, like the apartment and
your own space and you've gotall the stuff on you now and
it's like I mean more peoplecrumble at that time than any
(03:07):
other time and it literally Idon't understand how insurance
companies have skipped thiscomponent of care, which they
often do.
But, like, if you will, youknow it looks like you've done a
lot of.
You know a ton of this, likeworking with adolescents,
working in school systems,working in educational
environments, corporateenvironment, so you've got jobs
(03:29):
in there, education in there.
I mean all the component pieces.
It's like you blended all thisstuff together and created
Causeway Collaborative.
What?
What gave you the gumption todo that?
Cause it's not an easy job.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
No, no, I appreciate that, yeah, and and know, thanks
for thanks for all the praise.
So, yeah, I mean, you know, Ithink I mean first and foremost
my, my, my vision for theorganization came out of my own
personal experiences.
You know I was a guy.
I was a guy who struggledmightily with, you know, mental
health and substance use.
You know, throughout the courseof my, you know, latter teens
(04:01):
and into my 20s, and you knowthere was a couple pieces of it
that really formed, you know,the ethos of who we are.
One I was as trigger resistantas anybody you could ever meet,
and so I really became curiousand fascinated by the idea of
wanting to be worked with, youknow, and like finding ways to
(04:23):
engage guys who were really hardto reach and didn't really
respond to other serviceproviders prior, kind of became
preoccupied with that specificpopulation.
I also was I mean this and thisis a long time ago, you know,
when I was in college this isover, you know it's about 20
years ago now but like I wasfascinated by the lack of
support specifically for youngmen.
(04:43):
You know, like men and young men, but like I was fascinated by
the lack of support specificallyfor young men.
You know, like men and youngmen, like there there wasn't
anything you know that wasfocused on men's issues or young
men's issues, or you knowissues around, you know
educational support, or where doI find a job, or where do I do
this?
I mean, I think you know I alsowasn't one of like the super
motivated kind of guys to go outand like proactively look for
(05:04):
help.
Like help had to come and findme a little bit late in the game
, and so, you know I, I wanted,I wanted to be a part of a
solution that was providing, youknow, greater access for, you
know, men and young men to care,that was providing services
that were like therapeutic, butnot specifically limited to
couch therapy or talk therapy,which I think for some guys is,
you know, something that they'renot really readily able to
(05:27):
engage in.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And, like you know, just they don't want to do it.
You know, sometimes they'regood at fronting.
Yeah, they're good at front, andI say that only because, like I
was too, you know.
So I think that was a that wasa core piece that that resonated
with me and honestly, you knowI there was unique attraction
for me about the idea of youknow older men pouring into
(05:52):
young men and you know sharingstories and you know um having
perspective and providing wisdom.
But you know, in the ways thatI think you know male specific
work can be, can be particularlyimpactful.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So have you done any, have you collaborated at all or
know anything about thejourneyman foundation?
Have you done anything withthose guys before or know?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
about them?
I don't know anything aboutthose guys.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Similar idea, not a program per se, more like, you
know, forms, groups, free groupsfor young men and, and you know
, gives them the opportunity tokind of get under the layer and
get a little deeper with howthey're connecting with others,
either peers or older adults,but very much centered around
exactly what you're saying howdo we bring back and rites of
(06:36):
passage is a big piece of it andall these other things, but how
do we bring back kind of thiselder guidance as a part of an
adolescent's life?
You know, and it and and dadsare one thing, that's true, but
they, you know, as a dad, as adad of two teenagers, I know I
can't be everything Like.
and you know, if you look at thekind of child development stuff
(06:57):
which I'm sure you're veryfamiliar with, we know that the
source of their, we know thesource of their information and
the source of their information,the source of their guidance
and and a lot of the stuff thateven that channels their
maturity yeah, is largely asthey grow into older teens, from
their peers absolutely fromtheir, from their social groups,
not from their family.
Yeah, um, and if you can, if youcan spice that with something
(07:19):
that's got actual, actual, real,like knowledgeable guidance to
it, like that's the trick andthat's got it sounds like that's
what you're accomplishing yeahI want to, if you will.
You know one or a congregate ofof of individuals that you've
worked with?
yeah, give me a tough nut tocrack story if you would, I'd
(07:42):
love to just your experiencewith one that just comes out in
your mind.
I know they're all kind of youknow you don't do easy work.
They're all kind of tough, butthere's I know there's a couple
of shiners out there, you know,yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So um, you know I mean there's so many great
stories over the years.
You know guys who um and guyswe've had these like long and
winding roads with.
You know um got a guy I'llleave the name out.
This kid came to me at 15 yearsold.
You know post Karen, for youknow pretty severe substance use
issues.
You know pretty traumaticfamily constellation parents
(08:16):
were split.
You know there was some abusewith mom's new domestic partner.
You know dad had a newgirlfriend.
He was a you know C-suite guy,so you know a lot of open space
for this kid to like find waysto get himself into trouble and
he had plenty of money, plentyof money plenty of access, you
(08:37):
know, not a lot of oversight, soit's a pretty messy cocktail
there.
Came back from Karen, came backinto us and under our care and,
you know like, relapsed prettyquick and so we sent him right
back.
He did okay for a couple ofyears, you know, and honestly I
mean, you know, look, it's areally.
I mean, as you know, todd, Imean it's a.
For a 15 year old kid to comeback and get sober and stay
(09:00):
sober is a very, very tall order, right.
So you know, this kid didreally well for a couple of
years and then, you know, about18 years old, you know, went
sideways, relapsed, got reallybad for a couple of months, you
know.
And now, you know, and we senthim away again finally got
cleaned up for good.
So fast forward now you knowthis guy's 22, 23, comes in you
(09:21):
know, once every six weeks, onceevery four to six weeks to see
me just for a check-in, butworking in a construction job as
a project manager, making 65,70 grand, no college, 55 hours a
week, and actually started uphis own little business on the
side in addition, there too, andall the while we've been doing
(09:45):
work alongside him for yearsthrough our mentorship program,
get him on a regimen, having himwork out, doing wellness-based
stuff, helping him feel good,you know, doing a little
socially focused work where youknow we're trying to get.
He wasn't a 12-step guy so wehad to work overtime to get him
connected with positive thingsthat weren't substances, and
then working him and the familyin the counseling process for a
couple of years on end.
So you know long road for a guylike that.
(10:07):
You know we we lost some, wewon some, but the story was a
was a happy ending at the end ofthe day.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So well, it's not.
You know, like you say, it'snot a linear path to recovery
and you know, I know that peoplehave this, they have I've heard
people really have a problem.
It's like relapse is part ofrecovery and like I get why we
don't like that statement and II think that there's an
important resistance to havingthat statement.
Be true, that comes from peoplewho are, who are working in
(10:35):
recovery.
I I would say, however, that,like, the process of
self-discovery is not a linearpath and it comes with some
interesting turns and sometimes,especially as a young man, you
definitely stumble and stumbling.
Stumbling looks different foreverybody you know, because even
a person who's you know inrecovery and successfully sober
yeah, it's not so it's notnecessarily successfully
(10:57):
recovering you know, they.
They pour all that into a workand then they crash, or they
pour it into a relationshipthat's unhealthy, or they do all
these other counter addictions,if you will, that aren't any
better for their life, orthey're miserable because they
haven't found anything thatcauses them to feel good and a
(11:17):
place to have community.
And do the things that cause aperson to have a fulfilling and
meaningful life, the one thatthey want.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Do the things that cause a person to have a
fulfilling and meaningful life,the one that they want.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And if you will speak to this because I've said this,
I've been saying this for yearsyeah, and I think recovery is
guilty of it, treatment isguilty of it, unintentionally,
but it's societal.
So you go to school andhopefully you finish school, or
you finish, you finish someversion of it and you graduate
(11:47):
right Like there's thiscelebration and they give you a
certificate and you're like,yeah, and then and it's a
falsehood Like you know you'vecompleted something and that
feels good and that's great, butyou know, in many ways it's
almost like with having kids.
It's almost like pregnancy.
(12:13):
You freak out that your wife'spregnant with your child and
they're coming along the way andthen that child is born.
It's like pregnancy.
That wasn't nothing.
That was just conceptuallypreparing me for the idea of
what the real deal was.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
You turned the page, right, you turned the page and
it's like you know.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think that celebrating markers is good, but
you know, in recovery they callit 13 months.
You know, more people relapseon their year anniversary than
almost any other time, like inyour work, work.
How do you navigate this?
And I want to tell you thatthis is not like.
This is the rest of your life,by the way, what we're doing
(12:54):
here.
I know you feel good andsuccessful.
We've built some stuff and it'sgreat.
And for the rest of your life,you're going to be trying,
you're going to be attempting toto manage a version of this.
How do you get that messageacross?
Cause, somewhere you have toright.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, no, no doubt, and I I think you know for us to
you know that that begins withthe family.
I think you know and and andand cultivating a narrative with
the family of one of not onlytransparency but sort of
progression, you know, liketransparency around, like
establishing reasonableexpectations that make sense and
(13:30):
that you know people can kindof co-align to.
You know, I think what happensmost often with us is that mom
and dad are over here and kidskind of over here and like we
start, you know, out of theblocks, with you know party
party A and party B not being onthe same page.
So I think you know out of theblocks, with you know party
party a and party B not being onthe same page.
So I think you know theconversation I think begins with
like what are we actuallytrying to do and what do you?
(13:50):
You know, hey, kid, what's yourkid?
kids 23, now Right, so, you know, Johnny, like what's your
vision, yeah, what's your visionfor your life, and where are we
heading?
And then making sure that theparents understand that and and
our you know, um, to some degreeon board with that, Right, and
if we're not on board with it,that's okay.
(14:11):
But let's have the conversationup front and just kind of
re-scope expectations.
So it always begins withexpectations and then from there
, you know, I think I justencourage transparency.
You know I encourage men, youknow, to really be purposeful
about sharing their resistance.
You know, if you think somethingsucks, it's necessary that I
(14:32):
know about it so we can pivotand go in a different direction.
And it doesn't do any good forsomebody to tell me that they're
on board with a plan and westart working a plan for three
to six months only to find outthat it's not the right plan and
he did it begrudgingly thewhole time or whatever the case
may be.
So it's important, look forward, be transparent, me to be on
the same page with a guy assomebody who's working to serve
(14:54):
him and, you know, trying towork on his behalf, and really,
lastly, that the vision is his.
You know that it's not dad'sany, you know just his parents,
and it's not you know mom's, hisfather's, whatever, like it's.
this is a young man's or a man'svision for his own life, and
we're stepping forward becausewe believe that that's what he
(15:16):
knows is best for him.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And you have to impart the crushing news to the
parents that, hey, this box thatyou've tried to put your adult
child in, your adult son in, hemay not meet that.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
It may not be his dream at all, and in order for
him to live something that looksthat looks successful it may or
may not meet your idea ofsuccess and you may need to come
off of it entirely like becauseif we start aiming for a goal
that's not his, but insteadyours, it's doomed to fail in
the first place.
You're going to be right backin the same spot you were in
yeah, because the guy's nevergoing to run with it.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
If it's not his, you know he'll fake it for a little
while, but it's going to berevealed eventually that it's on
him and we're going to have topivot anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
So well, there's also a deli.
I mean, I don't know what yourexperience is young man man was.
I can pick out pieces of mine,and it wasn't necessarily that
either of my parents had someoverbearing idea of success
about who I needed to be, butthey definitely had ideas about
what success looked like, sure,and so I spent a part of my life
(16:24):
trying to meet those ideas,even though they were not mine,
and then I would succeed at themand be miserable, yeah, and be
like why did I?
This sucks, how did I do this?
You know, and I think that thatyou know that process is
difficult.
I'm I'm, you know, I'm glad Ihad versions of support and
(16:45):
things that I did to kind oflike let me navigate this and
figure out who I am and what Iwant to do.
But, like for a young manespecially if they've gotten
addiction in their background oryou know something that looks
like a fairly significant mentalillness and mental health
challenges in their backgroundand and familial dynamics that
throw into all those things thatcan get very overbearing, I can
(17:07):
, I can imagine that that's likeprobably one of the toughest
things to face and terrifying atthe same time.
It's like, oh my God, I have noidea who I am or what I want to
be.
It's easy for me to just signon for a co-opted plan of
somebody else's than it is forme to come up with my own.
So maybe that's it.
I'm certain that you run intothis with these guys, right?
(17:30):
It's like, well, my dad saidyou know, or whatever you know,
well, I would just want to goout and be this successful thing
.
It's like, yeah, I hear thatand I don't buy it.
It sounds like BS to me.
Like, like, tell me about thatconversation when you have it
with guys.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, I think.
Um, you know, I think myapproach has changed with
respect to this.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Really.
I'll tell you why I want tohear this.
I'll tell you why.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, I think a few years ago, you know, when I was
younger, you know, and I was alittle less patient, maybe like
I would just fire right back.
You know, and immediately.
You know, poke holes anddeconstruct and, and you know
well, here's why that's aterrible idea.
A, b, c, d, e, right, and nowand I think this is a much
(18:18):
better approach I will alwaysallow the guy to engage me in
demonstrating why his plan isgoing to work Right and reserve
judgment.
So this is a hilarious story.
But we had a guy one time whocame through he might've been
5'2", 5'3" maybe, and he told methat his vision was to go to
(18:38):
the NBA, right, and so like,rather than like, you know,
metaphorically dunk on him.
I decided to say, okay, well,you know, I know a little bit
about basketball not a lot muchas a fan, not as a player.
But why don't we take a look atKobe's training regimen and see
what guys who are playing inthe high level are doing on a
daily basis?
(18:59):
And we got through about hourone day, one of 2,000 jump shots
and 300 push-ups before youstart your day.
And he tapped out prettyquickly and said, hey, you know
what, we should probably go lookat doing something else with
our time.
So, you know, honestly, it was,you know, acquainting him with
data and evidence around whatwas required and demonstrating
(19:21):
the incongruence between whatwas required and what he could
do that helped him get therehimself.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of letting things set their own
limit.
That's right, like you knowwhat I mean.
Like, all right, I like thatidea, I've got it.
I'm not going to say this in mymind.
I'm like I've got a pretty goodidea that that's going to set
its own limit because you'regoing to get about a third
through the process and it'sgoing to be something that you
don't want to do.
That'd be my guess, but I'mgoing to let that play out.
(19:48):
The other one, socrates.
He called it intellectualmidwifery, he would let somebody
talk through.
You're saying this, but alsothis they sound like they are in
(20:08):
conflict with one another.
Can you explain that a littlefurther?
And then the person would likethey'd work their way down to
tripping through it and realizeit was a completely incongruous
kind of ideology that they hadformulated, like I.
I think that that I mean.
It's beautiful work.
Not only is it something thatallows a person to arrive
somewhere, but it also teachesthem a thought process which you
(20:31):
know I did so many times injust following impulse after
impulse they've never reallyengaged in.
Now, with adolescence, thisone's you've got a lot of
experience with adolescence andyou you know classroom work and
education work and everythingelse.
And you know one of our stories.
(20:51):
You start with a guy at 15.
And obviously there were, therewas stuff that you know.
His story had some, some dips.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No doubt.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
What's the difference in your mind overall in finding
a message that lands with a 15,16 year old versus with a 23,
24 year old?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, um, it's a good question, um, you know, I mean,
uh, I think, um, I mean, Ithink for me it's about
relatability and connecting withpeople, you know, and I, I
think, um, you know, this workis um helping somebody navigate
(21:39):
their own journey.
You know, and I think, if youcreate a space for a guy of any
age to do that in a way that umallows him to open himself up,
you know, and withapproachability and respect and
care, I think it can work.
You know, irrespective of ageand really irrespective of
(22:00):
personality, I've got some, youknow, very, very unlikely
pairings.
You know, if I walk backthrough the annals of, like, the
client relationships that I'vehad, some of my favorite clients
I've ever had have been some ofthe most unlikely pairings
between myself and they.
But I think it's exactly thatit's not trying to overextend,
(22:21):
not working too hard to try toforce a connection when it's not
there, when common interestsaren't shared.
There, when common interestsaren't shared, I think that it's
, you know, applying all theskills that we all try to do to
do good work being, you know,being empathic, being kind, you
know, being relatively level.
I'm a little more emotionalthan the next guy, so that's the
watch out for me.
(22:42):
I always have to watchinjecting myself too much into
the conversation or allowing myyou know highs and lows to peak
too much.
But I think, if you know aslong, I mean, I think, if you
abide by those principles, ifyou are careful, if you are
honest, if you're transparentand respectful and you know, and
if you allow yourself to beyourself, you know, you can, you
can do pretty well.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I think that's the I mean.
To me that's kind of the bigthing.
It's like you and I areprobably the same, but it's very
unlikely I can be anythingother than myself.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And trying is painful .
Yeah, I don't know how.
Actually.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I don't have any idea how to do something Like.
I watch things where people tryto.
You know comedians will talkabout it, or somebody you know
actors or whatever be somethingthat isn't them, and I'm like
that looks incredibly painful.
I wouldn't last five minutes,so now the let me switch that
question up.
You know, for you and me yeah,for you and the work that you're
(23:38):
doing, like you know, a littlebit of vulnerability, certainly,
genuineness and authenticity,um, showing up and having a
connection, like that's a greatanswer.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Thanks, vince yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I appreciate that If you were, if you instead of you,
you're a parent.
Okay, that was a.
How does a parent like?
I think I get asked thisquestion a lot.
I've got some answers in myhead.
I love to hear yours, like howdoes a parent approach the the I
(24:13):
know everything 16, 17 year old, versus the different version
of I know everything 21, 22, 23year old?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
That's that's having struggles or that's going
through something.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question too, I mean, I
like I, it's a, it's a scope ofthe role conversation, I think,
right, so, like you know, 16, 23, I mean 23, that guy should be
independent or moving towards,you know, absolutely has far
more degree of command of hislife than you know, a 15, 16
(24:44):
year old.
If he doesn't, we got biggerissues, you know.
So I mean, I think, as a parent, you have to know that the
scope of your role is far morelimited and far more
consultative, right, like youknow.
So I mean, I think, as a parent, you have to know that the
scope of your role is far morelimited and far more
consultative, right, like youknow, kids, guys are coming to
you, your sons are coming to you, your daughters are coming to
you, because you know for, for,for, advice, direction, you know
insight, but the, the heavy,heavy lifting should be over by
(25:04):
that point.
At 15, 16, you're, you're rightin the throes of heavy lifting
yeah.
Yeah, my kids are younger, 10,12, eight, and but we're even
experiencing it, you know, with,especially, my oldest.
My oldest is going to middleschool, right, and we're in a
cool time with him now because,you know, this summer was the
first time where, like, theworld became his, you know.
(25:27):
So he got his little gizmowatch, he got his bicycle, and
now him and his brother, they go, you know, they, you know 10,
10 o'clock, mom, we'll see youlater.
You know, come home six, 30,and they got their watches and
if their mother needs them theycall.
You know she calls, right.
So I mean, I think even therethere's some discomfort for me
and her.
For sure, like you know, it'syou know out of mind is hard,
(25:47):
especially because this is thefirst time going through it.
But if you kind of see ourvision for our children are that
you know we work to help thembecome better independent
versions of themselves.
Right, and I believe that youknow a bicycle and a watch gets
him closer to that than himbeing at home.
You know where he's under mywatchful eyes.
So, it's important for, I think,parents to as that as that
(26:10):
world expands, right, becauseyou know, 16 is bigger than 12
and 23 is bigger than 16.
As their world expands, we haveto shrink our own role to allow
them the space to step in.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, I think the discomfort piece is where it
where it falls apart sometimesfor parents, and you know I have
my own pitfalls as a parent.
I fully acknowledge them.
I've got a 20-year-old going tocollege and I've got a
17-year-old got his first car.
We're in two differentlaunching places, but they're
versions of independentlaunching.
(26:44):
It's like I don't know.
I think the car's harder thancollege, to be honest, with you
Giving them the car and lettingthem drive off by themselves for
the first time.
It's terrifying, honestly.
As a person who does notexperience terror very often, it
terrifies me, sure, but it'slike and how else is he going to
(27:06):
go and do these things if Idon't let him go do them?
And then they come back andthere's a little trouble here,
there's something else, or theyget a ticket or the things that
happen.
They come up and then you tryto deal with them as a parent.
I think that when you and I areworking with individuals who are
one, they suffer from somechallenges in the first place
(27:28):
and they've gotten into trouble,and it's addictions and mental
illness, but those things willthrow a maturity process off,
hands down.
So this person's on a delay ora lag, and then you've got the
maybe you've got the late teensor early 20s year old that's in
the basement, hasn't done anylaunching, hasn't done any
things, might need treatment.
And then they get to you andit's like okay, how do we not
(27:54):
backpedal, right back to wherewe were, um and I?
It might be a cool thing, youget these guys I?
I assume they're coming fromtransitional living environments
, for the most part, sometimesdirectly from treatment, coming
home like I tell you what's.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
What's interesting, though, todd, is like a lot of
times these guys are not comingfrom those places, you know.
So, like in, you know, I mean Isay 15 to 20% of cases they are
.
They're either, you know, youknow, stepping up from once a
week with a therapist tosomething more comprehensive
with us or stepping down fromprogram to us.
(28:31):
You know, to maintaincontinuity along the continuum
from program to us.
You know to maintain continuityalong the continuum.
But honestly, I mean we get alot of referrals just for guys
who are looking for somethingdifferent, you know, compared to
what's offered.
You know, with respect, to care, you know.
So like for us, like I mean ourmentorship program.
You know the way we take guysout in the community and help
(28:52):
them do things and you know sortof the teach a man to fish kind
of framework.
There's not a lot of supportsout there male to male,
particularly in the realm of uh,you know kind of clinical
overlay that parents can, cangrab a hold of so we get a lot
of like 16 year old kids whoplay too many video games, who
don't do anything else, who,like we can just kind of like
get them out in the communityand like do something you know,
(29:13):
which is a significantintervention for a guy like that
, you know.
Or we get guys who are, like youknow, um, super anxious about
the college process and a littlebit late in the game, and so
like we can do a little workaround.
Like you know a guy whosetranscripts a little messy,
who's like more your c, you knowc ish kind of guy like that
(29:33):
there's still an option for himaround to go forward, plan,
whether that's community collegeand we ladder up or we go
straight to four year or we do avocational route.
Like we want to grab ahold ofthe guys who you know aren't the
top 10 in the class and aren'tgoing to Ivy league schools, but
like they want to plan too youknow they deserve one.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, oh man, yeah, I , I I wish that.
Um, like, I say, we need moreof it, so much more of it,
because I think that those folksI think what we see in the in
the, like, emergency treatment,placement things have gotten bad
, not a hand is probably asignificant portion of those
(30:13):
guys that you're talking aboutthat never got that at 15 or 16.
And what they gravitatedtowards was, you know, maybe a
bad crowd or you know,substances that were, you know,
they might as well play videogames and get high all day, you
know, or whatever.
Like they gravitated to thosethings because they didn't have
a resource that wasn't just IOPout of the local community,
(30:37):
whatever, or a therapist who,like you say, knows how to
present well, can tell you agood story and walk out and do
whatever the heck they want,which they do very often.
Um, and it needs something thatlives on the ground and feels
like it means something, and andthat's what you're providing
and I, I wish we could, just Iwish we could orchestrate it so
(30:59):
that it lived in school systemsand it lived in other places, so
that we could stop having thisrepetitive treatment problem
that we've got in our countrywhich is just getting worse,
post pandemic Worst I've everseen.
Did you see a lot of, did yousee a lot of fallout from the
pandemic Like what?
What was the?
What was the deal?
Pandemic wise for you?
What did you see?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah, so it was a really interesting time for us
and a really interesting time tobe a business owner.
They didn't, they didn't giveyou the rule book on that one.
So yeah, I mean, you know, look, I mean I remember actually
very, very well it was my kid'sbirthday.
(31:40):
So you know, my son's birthdaywas we were celebrating his
birthday on the- it must be aMarch baby, right.
Yeah, it was March, right, sohis birthday is the 21st, but we
celebrated oh, mine's the 23rd.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, it was march right.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So his birthday is the 21st, but we celebrate the
23rd.
Yeah, yeah, but we celebrated.
We celebrated the week before,right?
So on the 15th march 15th, Itook my kid out, we spent the
whole day together.
You know, we we had thiswonderful, wonderful day and
then, like the announcement cameover, all the things the world
is closing mond at, you know,whatever.
You know, 9 am, and so, like,down we were going.
(32:17):
I mean, I got that news onFriday night.
I had the full team online onSaturday.
We flipped the whole businessremote by noon on Monday and
we're running the wholeoperation, you know, completely
remote, completely virtual.
Now, we had almost no virtualcapabilities before, but we
caught up pretty quick, and sowhat it meant was, you know, a
(32:38):
couple of things.
One, I think you know, we got apretty big spike coming out of
the blocks.
So, like you know, we had thisbig influx of everybody was,
like, you know, in the kind ofcrisis that we were all in.
So, you know, parents wanted tokind of shore their kids up,
you know, in that first coupleof weeks, and then it was like,
then nobody knew how long thisthing was going to go, right,
(33:00):
and so it was like all right,well, let's hunker down, right.
So all the guys who just pumpedright in, you know kind of you
know sort of dissipated andpeople were playing the waiting
game in a very sort ofthoughtfully conservative kind
of way, you know.
So what it amounted to reallywas we had a pretty significant
uptick in terms of businessaround like the family side.
(33:21):
So we're doing a lot of workaround crisis mitigation, family
work, because everybody wasstuck in the house ready to kill
each other.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
But not a lot of.
You know, after about month twothere was not a lot of new
business coming in and not a lotof families were reaching back
out again because no one knewhow long this was going to go
and to what ends.
And so it was hard on thebusiness side for a while, for
sure, and we made things work.
Here we are, but for the guyslike now, who were?
moving through it and whoemerged from it, like now you
(33:51):
know who were moving through itand who emerged from it.
I mean, those were scary, scary, scary times for everybody and
I think that the people that wesee, the young men that we see
now, right, these you knowhighly video game addicted,
online focused, like lack,lacking activity, school
refusing, like these guys whoare really struggling.
(34:13):
Much of that work came out ofthe deficits that were, you know
, curated and cultivated inCOVID.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
And these guys have just never caught up, so yeah,
and then, and then they'restanding here in a lurch on the
other side of it and then theyneed somebody to help them walk
through it.
And I think the you know.
The other thing that I see ispeople get in a real hurry, like
you've got parents that are soyou've got, you come out of
pandemic, right, you got some,you got some grades that you
(34:42):
failed.
You got some, you got somestuff, some stuff you got to
shore up.
And now you're sitting here andyou're going back to school and
you're in a lurch, and then yousee parents kind of do this big
, like you know ladder ofinfluence.
Oh, he's, you know, he's, hehasn't done this right and he
hasn't done this right andsuddenly his life is going to be
terrible and and, and we, wewill, as parents, have failed.
(35:04):
So, like when you have to workwith that, um, I'm always
telling people it's like look,if he doesn't graduate on the
year that the school gave himyears for, so what?
Let's slow down and let's beconcerted about this plan that
we're making for you and yourfamily so that we can actually
(35:27):
get there.
Do you get a lot of pushbackfrom families on that message?
Like when you have to be likeokay, it's, where's the fire,
first of all.
Second of all, like let's justthrow our let's throw our
destination goal out a littlebit, let's figure this out and
let's let's cool off and slowdown for a minute, like what's
(35:48):
the pushback you get fromparents?
Uh, all a lot, yeah I mean alot.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I mean, you know, and that's not from everybody in
your area, I mean you know Imean I, I look we, I mean we're
and we're in.
You know we're in fairfieldcounty, connecticut.
We're in.
You know the affluent suburbsof hartford, connecticut.
We're in westchester county.
You know new york affluentsuburbs in new york city, right.
So you know we're, we'regetting parents with very, very
high expectations.
(36:13):
Um, a lot of times thoseexpectations are, you know, just
out of out of alignment with,like what the kid has done right
, like not maybe what he'scapable of, but certainly what
he's done, and I think thefrustration often comes from
that, if for nothing else.
And so, like, something has tomove.
You know something has to move,the expectations have to move,
(36:34):
or the capacity and the driveand the ambition and the work
ethic and all the other thingson this side have to move.
But I mean, I think what we tryto attack first is the
relationship.
You know that the expectationsare counter to the relationship,
and the relationship you havewith your kid is more important
than anything.
So if you want to drive a wedgebetween you and your kid, keep
up with your lofty expectations.
(36:54):
If you want to have arelationship that's meaningful
and lifelong with your kid,maybe it makes sense to modify
and adjust your expectations andactually listen to what your
kid has to say.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
No, it's not a series of objective.
They're human being in front ofyou.
Let's start there.
Wow, we need a bumper Like weneed a T-shirt.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
We need swag.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
We need swag.
A bumper sticker, we need at-shirt, we need swag.
We need swag.
I'm going to start working onit.
This has been fantastic.
I think we could just do abunch more interviews and keep
going nerd out about this stuff,but I sure do appreciate you
making time for being on theshow today.
This is Todd Weatherly withWPBM 1037, the Voice of
Asheville.
Mental Health Horizons will bewith you guys next time.
(37:34):
Vince, thanks a bunch.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, todd, reallyappreciate the talk, you too.
Thank you.
I have no time left.
(37:55):
Time is lost, no time at all.
(38:18):
Throw it in a garbage.
Can Then I take God's hand, Ijump up and let her know when I
can.
This is how I'm out.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, once again to Mental
Health Horizons.
On WPM 1037, the Voice ofAsheville.
This is Todd Weatherly, yourhost, mental health treatment
consultant and behavioral healthprofessional.
I am here today with Mr VinceBenavito.
Vince is the director andfounder of Causeway
Collaborative leading, providingdirect service for all three
(00:22):
specialized teams.
A licensed professionalcounselor holds a BA in
psychology from WesleyanUniversity and an MA in school
counseling from FairfieldUniversity Same as my wife, but
here in the Carolinas.
Actually, vince began his careeras an in-home therapist for
adolescents and families at theWheeler Clinic in Plainville,
connecticut, a regionalbehavioral health services
provider.
From there, he entered thecorporate world, where he worked
(00:44):
as a professional recruiter andhoned career counseling skills.
With these valuable experiences, vince transitioned back to
individual community-basedcounseling as an employment
specialist at the Kennedy Center, one of Connecticut's largest,
most highly regarded communityorganizations.
At the Kennedy Center, vinceworked to find meaningful jobs
for unemployed adults withpsychiatric diagnoses and
criminal histories.
I did the same for thecommunity college in our area.
(01:06):
This is going to be a funconversation.
He joined Freudman and Billingsin the 2010 Educational
Therapist and completed ayear-long internship in the
Weston High School GuidanceDepartment, re-initiated and
co-led weekly support groups forat-risk students in 2012.
Vince has brought all theseskills together and experiences
to start the CausewayCollaborative, which serves
(01:29):
young men who are transitioningand needing to find their way,
probably in recovery from notonly mental health disorders but
also substance use disorders,needing that coaching, support
and vocational support in thelocal community in Connecticut
and, you know, with a team oftrained professionals, coaches
(01:49):
and therapists that help themfind their way after they've
come out of residentialtreatment.
Is that a pretty accuratedescription?
Man?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, that's pretty right on.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And I'll say this you know, you and I got connected
through a doc that we both knowand appreciate, who's in Dr
Santo Piedra is a highlyregarded psychiatrist in the
area and he can't say, he can'tsay enough about you guys.
We've got a, we've got at leastone client coming your way and
have started working together alittle bit.
I got to tell you that's aperson who started an
(02:23):
organization that's got somesimilarities in the local area
and then handed it off to thetherapist that's there, like
what you guys are doing is.
We need so much more of it.
Thank you.
Yeah, we just we just need somuch more of it because young
men and women they need thiskind of support.
I always say that that it maybe one of the most vulnerable
(02:45):
times you have is coming out ofresidential treatment, so that
step down, transitional step, isreally important.
The next most vulnerable time,and maybe even more vulnerable,
is when you actually step backinto, like the apartment and
your own space and you've gotall the stuff on you now and
it's like I mean more peoplecrumble at that time than any
(03:07):
other time and it literally Idon't understand how insurance
companies have skipped thiscomponent of care, which they
often do.
But, like, if you will, youknow it looks like you've done a
lot of.
You know a ton of this, likeworking with adolescents,
working in school systems,working in educational
environments, corporateenvironment, so you've got jobs
(03:29):
in there, education in there.
I mean all the component pieces.
It's like you blended all thisstuff together and created
Causeway Collaborative.
What?
What gave you the gumption todo that?
Cause it's not an easy job.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
No, no, I appreciate that, yeah, and and know, thanks
for thanks for all the praise.
So, yeah, I mean, you know, Ithink I mean first and foremost
my, my, my vision for theorganization came out of my own
personal experiences.
You know I was a guy.
I was a guy who struggledmightily with, you know, mental
health and substance use.
You know, throughout the courseof my, you know, latter teens
(04:01):
and into my 20s, and you knowthere was a couple pieces of it
that really formed, you know,the ethos of who we are.
One I was as trigger resistantas anybody you could ever meet,
and so I really became curiousand fascinated by the idea of
wanting to be worked with, youknow, and like finding ways to
(04:23):
engage guys who were really hardto reach and didn't really
respond to other serviceproviders prior, kind of became
preoccupied with that specificpopulation.
I also was I mean this and thisis a long time ago, you know,
when I was in college this isover, you know it's about 20
years ago now but like I wasfascinated by the lack of
support specifically for youngmen.
(04:43):
You know, like men and young men, but like I was fascinated by
the lack of support specificallyfor young men.
You know, like men and youngmen, like there there wasn't
anything you know that wasfocused on men's issues or young
men's issues, or you knowissues around, you know
educational support, or where doI find a job, or where do I do
this?
I mean, I think you know I alsowasn't one of like the super
motivated kind of guys to go outand like proactively look for
(05:04):
help.
Like help had to come and findme a little bit late in the game
, and so, you know I, I wanted,I wanted to be a part of a
solution that was providing, youknow, greater access for, you
know, men and young men to care,that was providing services
that were like therapeutic, butnot specifically limited to
couch therapy or talk therapy,which I think for some guys is,
you know, something that they'renot really readily able to
(05:27):
engage in.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And, like you know, just they don't want to do it.
You know, sometimes they'regood at fronting.
Yeah, they're good at front, andI say that only because, like I
was too, you know.
So I think that was a that wasa core piece that that resonated
with me and honestly, you knowI there was unique attraction
for me about the idea of youknow older men pouring into
(05:52):
young men and you know sharingstories and you know um having
perspective and providing wisdom.
But you know, in the ways thatI think you know male specific
work can be, can be particularlyimpactful.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
So have you done any, have you collaborated at all or
know anything about thejourneyman foundation?
Have you done anything withthose guys before or know?
Speaker 2 (06:11):
about them?
I don't know anything aboutthose guys.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Similar idea, not a program per se, more like, you
know, forms, groups, free groupsfor young men and, and you know
, gives them the opportunity tokind of get under the layer and
get a little deeper with howthey're connecting with others,
either peers or older adults,but very much centered around
exactly what you're saying howdo we bring back and rites of
(06:36):
passage is a big piece of it andall these other things, but how
do we bring back kind of thiselder guidance as a part of an
adolescent's life?
You know, and it and and dadsare one thing, that's true, but
they, you know, as a dad, as adad of two teenagers, I know I
can't be everything Like.
and you know, if you look at thekind of child development stuff
(06:57):
which I'm sure you're veryfamiliar with, we know that the
source of their, we know thesource of their information and
the source of their information,the source of their guidance
and and a lot of the stuff thateven that channels their
maturity yeah, is largely asthey grow into older teens, from
their peers absolutely fromtheir, from their social groups,
not from their family.
Yeah, um, and if you can, if youcan spice that with something
(07:19):
that's got actual, actual, real,like knowledgeable guidance to
it, like that's the trick andthat's got it sounds like that's
what you're accomplishing yeahI want to, if you will.
You know one or a congregate ofof of individuals that you've
worked with?
yeah, give me a tough nut tocrack story if you would, I'd
(07:42):
love to just your experiencewith one that just comes out in
your mind.
I know they're all kind of youknow you don't do easy work.
They're all kind of tough, butthere's I know there's a couple
of shiners out there, you know,yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So um, you know I mean there's so many great
stories over the years.
You know guys who um and guyswe've had these like long and
winding roads with.
You know um got a guy I'llleave the name out.
This kid came to me at 15 yearsold.
You know post Karen, for youknow pretty severe substance use
issues.
You know pretty traumaticfamily constellation parents
(08:16):
were split.
You know there was some abusewith mom's new domestic partner.
You know dad had a newgirlfriend.
He was a you know C-suite guy,so you know a lot of open space
for this kid to like find waysto get himself into trouble and
he had plenty of money, plentyof money plenty of access, you
(08:37):
know, not a lot of oversight, soit's a pretty messy cocktail
there.
Came back from Karen, came backinto us and under our care and,
you know like, relapsed prettyquick and so we sent him right
back.
He did okay for a couple ofyears, you know, and honestly I
mean, you know, look, it's areally.
I mean, as you know, todd, Imean it's a.
For a 15 year old kid to comeback and get sober and stay
(09:00):
sober is a very, very tall order, right.
So you know, this kid didreally well for a couple of
years and then, you know, about18 years old, you know, went
sideways, relapsed, got reallybad for a couple of months, you
know.
And now, you know, and we senthim away again finally got
cleaned up for good.
So fast forward now you knowthis guy's 22, 23, comes in you
(09:21):
know, once every six weeks, onceevery four to six weeks to see
me just for a check-in, butworking in a construction job as
a project manager, making 65,70 grand, no college, 55 hours a
week, and actually started uphis own little business on the
side in addition, there too, andall the while we've been doing
(09:45):
work alongside him for yearsthrough our mentorship program,
get him on a regimen, having himwork out, doing wellness-based
stuff, helping him feel good,you know, doing a little
socially focused work where youknow we're trying to get.
He wasn't a 12-step guy so wehad to work overtime to get him
connected with positive thingsthat weren't substances, and
then working him and the familyin the counseling process for a
couple of years on end.
So you know long road for a guylike that.
(10:07):
You know we we lost some, wewon some, but the story was a
was a happy ending at the end ofthe day.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
So well, it's not.
You know, like you say, it'snot a linear path to recovery
and you know, I know that peoplehave this, they have I've heard
people really have a problem.
It's like relapse is part ofrecovery and like I get why we
don't like that statement and II think that there's an
important resistance to havingthat statement.
Be true, that comes from peoplewho are, who are working in
(10:35):
recovery.
I I would say, however, that,like, the process of
self-discovery is not a linearpath and it comes with some
interesting turns and sometimes,especially as a young man, you
definitely stumble and stumbling.
Stumbling looks different foreverybody you know, because even
a person who's you know inrecovery and successfully sober
yeah, it's not so it's notnecessarily successfully
(10:57):
recovering you know, they.
They pour all that into a workand then they crash, or they
pour it into a relationshipthat's unhealthy, or they do all
these other counter addictions,if you will, that aren't any
better for their life, orthey're miserable because they
haven't found anything thatcauses them to feel good and a
(11:17):
place to have community.
And do the things that cause aperson to have a fulfilling and
meaningful life, the one thatthey want.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Do the things that cause a person to have a
fulfilling and meaningful life,the one that they want.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And if you will speak to this because I've said this,
I've been saying this for yearsyeah, and I think recovery is
guilty of it, treatment isguilty of it, unintentionally,
but it's societal.
So you go to school andhopefully you finish school, or
you finish, you finish someversion of it and you graduate
(11:47):
right Like there's thiscelebration and they give you a
certificate and you're like,yeah, and then and it's a
falsehood Like you know you'vecompleted something and that
feels good and that's great, butyou know, in many ways it's
almost like with having kids.
It's almost like pregnancy.
(12:13):
You freak out that your wife'spregnant with your child and
they're coming along the way andthen that child is born.
It's like pregnancy.
That wasn't nothing.
That was just conceptuallypreparing me for the idea of
what the real deal was.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
You turned the page, right, you turned the page and
it's like you know.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think that celebrating markers is good, but
you know, in recovery they callit 13 months.
You know, more people relapseon their year anniversary than
almost any other time, like inyour work, work.
How do you navigate this?
And I want to tell you thatthis is not like.
This is the rest of your life,by the way, what we're doing
(12:54):
here.
I know you feel good andsuccessful.
We've built some stuff and it'sgreat.
And for the rest of your life,you're going to be trying,
you're going to be attempting toto manage a version of this.
How do you get that messageacross?
Cause, somewhere you have toright.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, no, no doubt, and I I think you know for us to
you know that that begins withthe family.
I think you know and and andand cultivating a narrative with
the family of one of not onlytransparency but sort of
progression, you know, liketransparency around, like
establishing reasonableexpectations that make sense and
(13:30):
that you know people can kindof co-align to.
You know, I think what happensmost often with us is that mom
and dad are over here and kidskind of over here and like we
start, you know, out of theblocks, with you know party
party A and party B not being onthe same page.
So I think you know out of theblocks, with you know party
party a and party B not being onthe same page.
So I think you know theconversation I think begins with
like what are we actuallytrying to do and what do you?
(13:50):
You know, hey, kid, what's yourkid?
kids 23, now Right, so, you know, Johnny, like what's your
vision, yeah, what's your visionfor your life, and where are we
heading?
And then making sure that theparents understand that and and
our you know, um, to some degreeon board with that, Right, and
if we're not on board with it,that's okay.
(14:11):
But let's have the conversationup front and just kind of
re-scope expectations.
So it always begins withexpectations and then from there
, you know, I think I justencourage transparency.
You know I encourage men, youknow, to really be purposeful
about sharing their resistance.
You know, if you think somethingsucks, it's necessary that I
(14:32):
know about it so we can pivotand go in a different direction.
And it doesn't do any good forsomebody to tell me that they're
on board with a plan and westart working a plan for three
to six months only to find outthat it's not the right plan and
he did it begrudgingly thewhole time or whatever the case
may be.
So it's important, look forward, be transparent, me to be on
the same page with a guy assomebody who's working to serve
(14:54):
him and, you know, trying towork on his behalf, and really,
lastly, that the vision is his.
You know that it's not dad'sany, you know just his parents,
and it's not you know mom's, hisfather's, whatever, like it's.
this is a young man's or a man'svision for his own life, and
we're stepping forward becausewe believe that that's what he
(15:16):
knows is best for him.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
And you have to impart the crushing news to the
parents that, hey, this box thatyou've tried to put your adult
child in, your adult son in, hemay not meet that.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
It may not be his dream at all, and in order for
him to live something that looksthat looks successful it may or
may not meet your idea ofsuccess and you may need to come
off of it entirely like becauseif we start aiming for a goal
that's not his, but insteadyours, it's doomed to fail in
the first place.
You're going to be right backin the same spot you were in
yeah, because the guy's nevergoing to run with it.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
If it's not his, you know he'll fake it for a little
while, but it's going to berevealed eventually that it's on
him and we're going to have topivot anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
So well, there's also a deli.
I mean, I don't know what yourexperience is young man man was.
I can pick out pieces of mine,and it wasn't necessarily that
either of my parents had someoverbearing idea of success
about who I needed to be, butthey definitely had ideas about
what success looked like, sure,and so I spent a part of my life
(16:24):
trying to meet those ideas,even though they were not mine,
and then I would succeed at themand be miserable, yeah, and be
like why did I?
This sucks, how did I do this?
You know, and I think that thatyou know that process is
difficult.
I'm I'm, you know, I'm glad Ihad versions of support and
(16:45):
things that I did to kind oflike let me navigate this and
figure out who I am and what Iwant to do.
But, like for a young manespecially if they've gotten
addiction in their background oryou know something that looks
like a fairly significant mentalillness and mental health
challenges in their backgroundand and familial dynamics that
throw into all those things thatcan get very overbearing, I can
(17:07):
, I can imagine that that's likeprobably one of the toughest
things to face and terrifying atthe same time.
It's like, oh my God, I have noidea who I am or what I want to
be.
It's easy for me to just signon for a co-opted plan of
somebody else's than it is forme to come up with my own.
So maybe that's it.
I'm certain that you run intothis with these guys, right?
(17:30):
It's like, well, my dad saidyou know, or whatever you know,
well, I would just want to goout and be this successful thing
.
It's like, yeah, I hear thatand I don't buy it.
It sounds like BS to me.
Like, like, tell me about thatconversation when you have it
with guys.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, I think.
Um, you know, I think myapproach has changed with
respect to this.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Really.
I'll tell you why I want tohear this.
I'll tell you why.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, I think a few years ago, you know, when I was
younger, you know, and I was alittle less patient, maybe like
I would just fire right back.
You know, and immediately.
You know, poke holes anddeconstruct and, and you know
well, here's why that's aterrible idea.
A, b, c, d, e, right, and nowand I think this is a much
(18:18):
better approach I will alwaysallow the guy to engage me in
demonstrating why his plan isgoing to work Right and reserve
judgment.
So this is a hilarious story.
But we had a guy one time whocame through he might've been
5'2", 5'3" maybe, and he told methat his vision was to go to
(18:38):
the NBA, right, and so like,rather than like, you know,
metaphorically dunk on him.
I decided to say, okay, well,you know, I know a little bit
about basketball not a lot muchas a fan, not as a player.
But why don't we take a look atKobe's training regimen and see
what guys who are playing inthe high level are doing on a
daily basis?
(18:59):
And we got through about hourone day, one of 2,000 jump shots
and 300 push-ups before youstart your day.
And he tapped out prettyquickly and said, hey, you know
what, we should probably go lookat doing something else with
our time.
So, you know, honestly, it was,you know, acquainting him with
data and evidence around whatwas required and demonstrating
(19:21):
the incongruence between whatwas required and what he could
do that helped him get therehimself.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of letting things set their own
limit.
That's right, like you knowwhat I mean.
Like, all right, I like thatidea, I've got it.
I'm not going to say this in mymind.
I'm like I've got a pretty goodidea that that's going to set
its own limit because you'regoing to get about a third
through the process and it'sgoing to be something that you
don't want to do.
That'd be my guess, but I'mgoing to let that play out.
(19:48):
The other one, socrates.
He called it intellectualmidwifery, he would let somebody
talk through.
You're saying this, but alsothis they sound like they are in
(20:08):
conflict with one another.
Can you explain that a littlefurther?
And then the person would likethey'd work their way down to
tripping through it and realizeit was a completely incongruous
kind of ideology that they hadformulated, like I.
I think that that I mean.
It's beautiful work.
Not only is it something thatallows a person to arrive
somewhere, but it also teachesthem a thought process which you
(20:31):
know I did so many times injust following impulse after
impulse they've never reallyengaged in.
Now, with adolescence, thisone's you've got a lot of
experience with adolescence andyou you know classroom work and
education work and everythingelse.
And you know one of our stories.
(20:51):
You start with a guy at 15.
And obviously there were, therewas stuff that you know.
His story had some, some dips.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
No doubt.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
What's the difference in your mind overall in finding
a message that lands with a 15,16 year old versus with a 23,
24 year old?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, um, it's a good question, um, you know, I mean,
uh, I think, um, I mean, Ithink for me it's about
relatability and connecting withpeople, you know, and I, I
think, um, you know, this workis um helping somebody navigate
(21:39):
their own journey.
You know, and I think, if youcreate a space for a guy of any
age to do that in a way that umallows him to open himself up,
you know, and withapproachability and respect and
care, I think it can work.
You know, irrespective of ageand really irrespective of
(22:00):
personality, I've got some, youknow, very, very unlikely
pairings.
You know, if I walk backthrough the annals of, like, the
client relationships that I'vehad, some of my favorite clients
I've ever had have been some ofthe most unlikely pairings
between myself and they.
But I think it's exactly thatit's not trying to overextend,
(22:21):
not working too hard to try toforce a connection when it's not
there, when common interestsaren't shared.
There, when common interestsaren't shared, I think that it's
, you know, applying all theskills that we all try to do to
do good work being, you know,being empathic, being kind, you
know, being relatively level.
I'm a little more emotionalthan the next guy, so that's the
watch out for me.
(22:42):
I always have to watchinjecting myself too much into
the conversation or allowing myyou know highs and lows to peak
too much.
But I think, if you know aslong, I mean, I think, if you
abide by those principles, ifyou are careful, if you are
honest, if you're transparentand respectful and you know, and
if you allow yourself to beyourself, you know, you can, you
can do pretty well.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I think that's the I mean.
To me that's kind of the bigthing.
It's like you and I areprobably the same, but it's very
unlikely I can be anythingother than myself.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
And trying is painful .
Yeah, I don't know how.
Actually.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
I don't have any idea how to do something Like.
I watch things where people tryto.
You know comedians will talkabout it, or somebody you know
actors or whatever be somethingthat isn't them, and I'm like
that looks incredibly painful.
I wouldn't last five minutes,so now the let me switch that
question up.
You know, for you and me yeah,for you and the work that you're
(23:38):
doing, like you know, a littlebit of vulnerability, certainly,
genuineness and authenticity,um, showing up and having a
connection, like that's a greatanswer.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Thanks, vince yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I appreciate that If you were, if you instead of you,
you're a parent.
Okay, that was a.
How does a parent like?
I think I get asked thisquestion a lot.
I've got some answers in myhead.
I love to hear yours, like howdoes a parent approach the the I
(24:13):
know everything 16, 17 year old, versus the different version
of I know everything 21, 22, 23year old?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
That's that's having struggles or that's going
through something.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's a great question too, I mean, I
like I, it's a, it's a scope ofthe role conversation, I think,
right, so, like you know, 16, 23, I mean 23, that guy should be
independent or moving towards,you know, absolutely has far
more degree of command of hislife than you know, a 15, 16
(24:44):
year old.
If he doesn't, we got biggerissues, you know.
So I mean, I think, as a parent, you have to know that the
scope of your role is far morelimited and far more
consultative, right, like youknow.
So I mean, I think, as a parent, you have to know that the
scope of your role is far morelimited and far more
consultative, right, like youknow, kids, guys are coming to
you, your sons are coming to you, your daughters are coming to
you, because you know for, for,for, advice, direction, you know
insight, but the, the heavy,heavy lifting should be over by
(25:04):
that point.
At 15, 16, you're, you're rightin the throes of heavy lifting
yeah.
Yeah, my kids are younger, 10,12, eight, and but we're even
experiencing it, you know, with,especially, my oldest.
My oldest is going to middleschool, right, and we're in a
cool time with him now because,you know, this summer was the
first time where, like, theworld became his, you know.
(25:27):
So he got his little gizmowatch, he got his bicycle, and
now him and his brother, they go, you know, they, you know 10,
10 o'clock, mom, we'll see youlater.
You know, come home six, 30,and they got their watches and
if their mother needs them theycall.
You know she calls, right.
So I mean, I think even therethere's some discomfort for me
and her.
For sure, like you know, it'syou know out of mind is hard,
(25:47):
especially because this is thefirst time going through it.
But if you kind of see ourvision for our children are that
you know we work to help thembecome better independent
versions of themselves.
Right, and I believe that youknow a bicycle and a watch gets
him closer to that than himbeing at home.
You know where he's under mywatchful eyes.
So, it's important for, I think,parents to as that as that
(26:10):
world expands, right, becauseyou know, 16 is bigger than 12
and 23 is bigger than 16.
As their world expands, we haveto shrink our own role to allow
them the space to step in.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, I think the discomfort piece is where it
where it falls apart sometimesfor parents, and you know I have
my own pitfalls as a parent.
I fully acknowledge them.
I've got a 20-year-old going tocollege and I've got a
17-year-old got his first car.
We're in two differentlaunching places, but they're
versions of independentlaunching.
(26:44):
It's like I don't know.
I think the car's harder thancollege, to be honest, with you
Giving them the car and lettingthem drive off by themselves for
the first time.
It's terrifying, honestly.
As a person who does notexperience terror very often, it
terrifies me, sure, but it'slike and how else is he going to
(27:06):
go and do these things if Idon't let him go do them?
And then they come back andthere's a little trouble here,
there's something else, or theyget a ticket or the things that
happen.
They come up and then you tryto deal with them as a parent.
I think that when you and I areworking with individuals who are
one, they suffer from somechallenges in the first place
(27:28):
and they've gotten into trouble,and it's addictions and mental
illness, but those things willthrow a maturity process off,
hands down.
So this person's on a delay ora lag, and then you've got the
maybe you've got the late teensor early 20s year old that's in
the basement, hasn't done anylaunching, hasn't done any
things, might need treatment.
And then they get to you andit's like okay, how do we not
(27:54):
backpedal, right back to wherewe were, um and I?
It might be a cool thing, youget these guys I?
I assume they're coming fromtransitional living environments
, for the most part, sometimesdirectly from treatment, coming
home like I tell you what's.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
What's interesting, though, todd, is like a lot of
times these guys are not comingfrom those places, you know.
So, like in, you know, I mean Isay 15 to 20% of cases they are
.
They're either, you know, youknow, stepping up from once a
week with a therapist tosomething more comprehensive
with us or stepping down fromprogram to us.
(28:31):
You know, to maintaincontinuity along the continuum
from program to us.
You know to maintain continuityalong the continuum.
But honestly, I mean we get alot of referrals just for guys
who are looking for somethingdifferent, you know, compared to
what's offered.
You know, with respect, to care, you know.
So like for us, like I mean ourmentorship program.
You know the way we take guysout in the community and help
(28:52):
them do things and you know sortof the teach a man to fish kind
of framework.
There's not a lot of supportsout there male to male,
particularly in the realm of uh,you know kind of clinical
overlay that parents can, cangrab a hold of so we get a lot
of like 16 year old kids whoplay too many video games, who
don't do anything else, who,like we can just kind of like
get them out in the communityand like do something you know,
(29:13):
which is a significantintervention for a guy like that
, you know.
Or we get guys who are, like youknow, um, super anxious about
the college process and a littlebit late in the game, and so
like we can do a little workaround.
Like you know a guy whosetranscripts a little messy,
who's like more your c, you knowc ish kind of guy like that
(29:33):
there's still an option for himaround to go forward, plan,
whether that's community collegeand we ladder up or we go
straight to four year or we do avocational route.
Like we want to grab ahold ofthe guys who you know aren't the
top 10 in the class and aren'tgoing to Ivy league schools, but
like they want to plan too youknow they deserve one.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah, oh man, yeah, I , I I wish that.
Um, like, I say, we need moreof it, so much more of it,
because I think that those folksI think what we see in the in
the, like, emergency treatment,placement things have gotten bad
, not a hand is probably asignificant portion of those
(30:13):
guys that you're talking aboutthat never got that at 15 or 16.
And what they gravitatedtowards was, you know, maybe a
bad crowd or you know,substances that were, you know,
they might as well play videogames and get high all day, you
know, or whatever.
Like they gravitated to thosethings because they didn't have
a resource that wasn't just IOPout of the local community,
(30:37):
whatever, or a therapist who,like you say, knows how to
present well, can tell you agood story and walk out and do
whatever the heck they want,which they do very often.
Um, and it needs something thatlives on the ground and feels
like it means something, and andthat's what you're providing
and I, I wish we could, just Iwish we could orchestrate it so
(30:59):
that it lived in school systemsand it lived in other places, so
that we could stop having thisrepetitive treatment problem
that we've got in our countrywhich is just getting worse,
post pandemic Worst I've everseen.
Did you see a lot of, did yousee a lot of fallout from the
pandemic Like what?
What was the?
What was the deal?
Pandemic wise for you?
What did you see?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Yeah, so it was a really interesting time for us
and a really interesting time tobe a business owner.
They didn't, they didn't giveyou the rule book on that one.
So yeah, I mean, you know, look, I mean I remember actually
very, very well it was my kid'sbirthday.
(31:40):
So you know, my son's birthdaywas we were celebrating his
birthday on the- it must be aMarch baby, right.
Yeah, it was March, right, sohis birthday is the 21st, but we
celebrated oh, mine's the 23rd.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, it was march right.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So his birthday is the 21st, but we celebrate the
23rd.
Yeah, yeah, but we celebrated.
We celebrated the week before,right?
So on the 15th march 15th, Itook my kid out, we spent the
whole day together.
You know, we we had thiswonderful, wonderful day and
then, like the announcement cameover, all the things the world
is closing mond at, you know,whatever.
You know, 9 am, and so, like,down we were going.
(32:17):
I mean, I got that news onFriday night.
I had the full team online onSaturday.
We flipped the whole businessremote by noon on Monday and
we're running the wholeoperation, you know, completely
remote, completely virtual.
Now, we had almost no virtualcapabilities before, but we
caught up pretty quick, and sowhat it meant was, you know, a
(32:38):
couple of things.
One, I think you know, we got apretty big spike coming out of
the blocks.
So, like you know, we had thisbig influx of everybody was,
like, you know, in the kind ofcrisis that we were all in.
So, you know, parents wanted tokind of shore their kids up,
you know, in that first coupleof weeks, and then it was like,
then nobody knew how long thisthing was going to go, right,
(33:00):
and so it was like all right,well, let's hunker down, right.
So all the guys who just pumpedright in, you know kind of you
know sort of dissipated andpeople were playing the waiting
game in a very sort ofthoughtfully conservative kind
of way, you know.
So what it amounted to reallywas we had a pretty significant
uptick in terms of businessaround like the family side.
(33:21):
So we're doing a lot of workaround crisis mitigation, family
work, because everybody wasstuck in the house ready to kill
each other.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
But not a lot of.
You know, after about month twothere was not a lot of new
business coming in and not a lotof families were reaching back
out again because no one knewhow long this was going to go
and to what ends.
And so it was hard on thebusiness side for a while, for
sure, and we made things work.
Here we are, but for the guyslike now, who were?
moving through it and whoemerged from it, like now you
(33:51):
know who were moving through itand who emerged from it.
I mean, those were scary, scary, scary times for everybody and
I think that the people that wesee, the young men that we see
now, right, these you knowhighly video game addicted,
online focused, like lack,lacking activity, school
refusing, like these guys whoare really struggling.
(34:13):
Much of that work came out ofthe deficits that were, you know
, curated and cultivated inCOVID.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
And these guys have just never caught up, so yeah,
and then, and then they'restanding here in a lurch on the
other side of it and then theyneed somebody to help them walk
through it.
And I think the you know.
The other thing that I see ispeople get in a real hurry, like
you've got parents that are soyou've got, you come out of
pandemic, right, you got some,you got some grades that you
(34:42):
failed.
You got some, you got somestuff, some stuff you got to
shore up.
And now you're sitting here andyou're going back to school and
you're in a lurch, and then yousee parents kind of do this big
, like you know ladder ofinfluence.
Oh, he's, you know, he's, hehasn't done this right and he
hasn't done this right andsuddenly his life is going to be
terrible and and, and we, wewill, as parents, have failed.
(35:04):
So, like when you have to workwith that, um, I'm always
telling people it's like look,if he doesn't graduate on the
year that the school gave himyears for, so what?
Let's slow down and let's beconcerted about this plan that
we're making for you and yourfamily so that we can actually
(35:27):
get there.
Do you get a lot of pushbackfrom families on that message?
Like when you have to be likeokay, it's, where's the fire,
first of all.
Second of all, like let's justthrow our let's throw our
destination goal out a littlebit, let's figure this out and
let's let's cool off and slowdown for a minute, like what's
(35:48):
the pushback you get fromparents?
Uh, all a lot, yeah I mean alot.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I mean, you know, and that's not from everybody in
your area, I mean you know Imean I, I look we, I mean we're
and we're in.
You know we're in fairfieldcounty, connecticut.
We're in.
You know the affluent suburbsof hartford, connecticut.
We're in westchester county.
You know new york affluentsuburbs in new york city, right.
So you know we're, we'regetting parents with very, very
high expectations.
(36:13):
Um, a lot of times thoseexpectations are, you know, just
out of out of alignment with,like what the kid has done right
, like not maybe what he'scapable of, but certainly what
he's done, and I think thefrustration often comes from
that, if for nothing else.
And so, like, something has tomove.
You know something has to move,the expectations have to move,
(36:34):
or the capacity and the driveand the ambition and the work
ethic and all the other thingson this side have to move.
But I mean, I think what we tryto attack first is the
relationship.
You know that the expectationsare counter to the relationship,
and the relationship you havewith your kid is more important
than anything.
So if you want to drive a wedgebetween you and your kid, keep
up with your lofty expectations.
(36:54):
If you want to have arelationship that's meaningful
and lifelong with your kid,maybe it makes sense to modify
and adjust your expectations andactually listen to what your
kid has to say.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
No, it's not a series of objective.
They're human being in front ofyou.
Let's start there.
Wow, we need a bumper Like weneed a T-shirt.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
We need swag.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
We need swag.
A bumper sticker, we need at-shirt, we need swag.
We need swag.
I'm going to start working onit.
This has been fantastic.
I think we could just do abunch more interviews and keep
going nerd out about this stuff,but I sure do appreciate you
making time for being on theshow today.
This is Todd Weatherly withWPBM 1037, the Voice of
Asheville.
Mental Health Horizons will bewith you guys next time.
(37:34):
Vince, thanks a bunch.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, todd, reallyappreciate the talk, you too.
Thank you.
I have no time left.
(37:55):
Time is lost, no time at all.
(38:18):
Throw it in a garbage.
Can Then I take God's hand, Ijump up and let her know when I
can.
This is how I'm out.
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