Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello folks, welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
On WPBM 1037, the voice ofAsheville Independent
commercial-free radio, I'm ToddWeatherly, your host therapeutic
consultant.
Behavioral health expert.
With me today is Dr Jack Hinman.
Jack is the founding executivedirector of Engage Transitions,
(00:21):
a therapeutic environment therein Cedar City, utah.
Engage's engages purposes toprovide therapeutic support for
young adults struggling withtheir mental health that is
often limiting their ability tobe independent.
Jack is a licensed clinicalpsychologist, passionate
clinician and leader in helpingyoung adults cross that bridge
into healthy and engagingindependence.
His unique blend of clinicaland administrative experience
(00:43):
has provided Jack acomprehensive perspective on the
therapeutic journey.
He believes through the powerof connection we thrive.
Jack's clinical foundations aredriven in attachment theory and
dialectical behavioral therapy,otherwise known as DBT.
Jack has also served on theboard of directors for the
National Association ofTherapeutic Programs and Schools
(01:04):
, as well as having a privatepractice working primarily with
young students from the localcommunity.
Jack loves living in theoutdoor rich area of Cedar City
with his wife of 23 years andtheir two teenage children.
Jack is an avid mountain bikerand a coach for his son's high
school mountain bike team.
Jack, you know, for everybodyout there that might be maybe
not quite as engaged as you andI might be around this topic.
(01:30):
First thing and we'll gosomewhere with this, but first
thing let's define attachment.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Attachment was traditionally seen as like early
development, younger childrenor people that, hey, maybe were
adopted and had really earlyrelational trauma.
That was kind of where the thebox that we're kind of operating
from and but now we're kind ofmoving from, like, like we're
moving from that and seeing itas a lot more than that's the
case.
And so attachment is that yourearly formative years, um, and
(01:58):
how that development, thoseexperiences shape and form your,
like, your neurodevelopment,the way it shapes your
attachment, your attachmentsystem.
And so all of us haveattachment styles and our early
development affects that, ourattachment styles.
And there's, there's, um,there's typically four
attachment styles.
So the one that we all want towant to show up more and the one
(02:22):
that we want to be more in theplace of is secure attachment,
stable, consistent, predictablehomes, stable attachment figures
.
And then you have what we callinsecure attachment but people
label as preoccupied attachment.
And so those people have theyhave, they have low avoidance in
relationships but a highanxiety in relationships.
(02:43):
And so a person who's gotpreoccupied attachment when they
when they get, when they getstressed out or anxious about
relationships, they lean intorelationships.
So when preoccupied, so thinkabout you, they're preoccupied
about relationships.
So they're typically reallyconcerned about relationships,
(03:06):
concerned about those things.
And then you have the other.
You have avoidant, which ishigh avoidance and low anxiety.
That's on the pole, the polaron high avoidance and high
anxiety when it comesrelationships.
So they're very, very detachedfrom relationships.
They get overwhelmed byintimacy in relationships and um
(03:27):
and so when they get stressedout and stressed out in
relationships, they lean back.
And as we and we talk aboutthese different attachment
styles, there's some bit of likesuperpowers or some strengths
within each attachment stylethat show can show up very well
in work and we'll kind of we cantalk a little bit about that
down the road.
And then you have disorganizedtype, which is a combination of
(03:51):
you're preoccupied and avoidant,and so the stress they feel is
that where they feel veryfearful about abandonment in
relationships.
And so when they feel likeone's going to fill up, they
feel abandonment or feel likeone's going to leave them, they
lean into relationships.
And then, when they startleaning into relationships, they
(04:11):
get super anxious about beingtoo dependent on the
relationships.
So they pull back In the worldthat you and I are in, typically
clients that are in long-termcare, who need like residential
treatment who and maybe go tomultiple settings, do the
continuing care maybe intreatment for three to four
years typically fall intodisorganized category and um.
(04:35):
And so over the years um, theclients I've worked with was we
give them an attachment test anda high percentage fall into the
disorganized category that arein treatment.
And then I've also met withgroups of clinicians and it's
quite fascinating what are thetypical attachment styles
(04:56):
showing up with people who arein the working profession?
But you see a lot of people whotend to want to work in the
helping profession, whopreoccupied attached people,
because they really lean intorelationships, they get a lot of
their needs from relationshipsand those things and so it's
interesting to kind of play that.
And so I think the last time Ilooked into-.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You have to worry about enmeshment in their work,
I'm sure as well.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, I'm going to take a little side note about
therapy, but it's reallyfascinating to look at outcomes
of therapy based on theattachment style of the
therapist, and some of theresearch I've looked at is that
sometimes the therapist'sattachment style has a larger
impact on the outcome than theclient's attachment style, and
(05:42):
so our attachment style is thefoundation of how we show up and
work.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, so it's really important to know what is your
operating system.
It's our overall operatingsystem, the same way that's on
this computer that we're usingtoday, right now on our phone,
and it really operates.
The whole phone, operates thewhole computer, and now cars
have operating systems, and soyou can even maybe take it a
step further.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Your refrigerator has an operating system these days.
Yeah, yeah, if it's not workingright.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Your eggs and your milk is going to spoil in that
fridge pretty quickly.
And, yeah, cars, and you cantake it one step further is that
it's even like it's.
It's even like our relationaloperating system.
So it's our operating system.
It comes the way we regulateour emotions.
It's our operating system, waythat we conceptualize ourself
and the way we see others.
It's also the operating systemin the way we the kind of stress
(06:40):
we feel in relationships, andthen how do we respond to that
stress?
So you think about work.
It creates emotion, there'srelationships, and so you talked
about uncertainty.
And if you, when you thinkabout attachment and people who
have attachment distress andstruggle with have attachment
security, uncertainty is can beone of the number one triggers
(07:03):
for them.
And so then you talk about theworld that you and I work in.
Is that we're doing?
We're we're supporting peoplethat are very uncertain.
And and you, if you talk tolike a testing psychologist or
anybody like I, think the thingis that the thing that, like we,
we think we're good atpredicting behavior, but we're
actually the worst at predictingbehavior because our clients
(07:26):
are very uncertain, and thething about attachment, it's a
great window into understandingyourself and it gives you the
insight in how you show up andwork in relationships so in a
quad style assessment, you know,you see this amorphous blob
that you got a little, you knowa little bit of territory in the
(07:49):
disorganized, a littleterritory in the preoccupied, a
little territory stable.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Ideally you want to have a lot in the stable um and
and so that profile gives youyour profile.
You've got a little bit of allof them, right.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, and you show and then like, yeah, if you want
to, if you want to learn moreabout your own personal
attachment, there's a greatorganization and website called
the attachment project.
Yeah, that's cool, yeah, yeah,it's cool.
And so it gives you that littlequarter that you're talking
about where like and can.
Even even if you're um, yourprimary, uh, attachment figures
are no longer with us anymore.
(08:26):
Like your parent, like your momand your dad, you can still get
an idea of kind of how you fallinto romantic relationships,
your parents and those things.
And just even taking that testactually is pretty, um,
informative, just the way youjust get the answer.
His questions will bring up alot of information about
yourself and so, yeah, it's likewe show up differently in
(08:48):
different relationships anddifferent situations can trigger
that attachment and security inthose things.
Definitely.
And you think about work.
It's very relational.
Especially the work we work inis extremely relational.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, well, and you know, I I think about
looking through this lens, uh,and as it relates to identity,
um, and you know, if you'retalking about, as you say, many
of the individuals that that endup in long-term treatment or
care, those kinds of things havea have a disorganized profile,
(09:30):
disorganized attachment profile.
So what you're trying to do isis cause them to shift that a
bit.
You're moving the needle right,and and and through that re like
.
That's a whole new identity.
It's a whole different way ofof being in the world.
Um, um, for a person who notonly has this attachment style
but also has probably forged anidentity around some of the the
(09:52):
challenges of their condition.
You know they they're, you knowthey suffer from depression or
anxiety.
They got this profile of a sickperson in their mind and
they've identified with it.
Um and like, what is the?
In chemistry?
There's this, uh, it's one ofmy favorite ones.
I use it my notes all the time,but it means this yields
(10:14):
something else and it's a it's alittle arrow, um, and in some,
in some formations, you've gotyou've got chemicals that yield
each other, so one will, it'llyield that way and it'll yield
the other way, and the sign is ais a half arrow on top and a
half arrow on bottom.
That's one of my favoritesymbols, but I could see that
(10:37):
symbol existing betweenattachment and identity, um, and
that, like, if you're lookingthrough this window, this lens
of your attachment, style andand everything that comes up as
a result of that, you start togo straight towards your
identity.
It's like, if you, if I, if Iquestion the way that I attach
(10:59):
to things, not just people likethere's ways I orient all kinds
of stuff in the world that arehints at this window, this lens
that we're talking about, and asopposed to, if you start to
change, that you walk into aplace and suddenly you've
adjusted your view through thislens and thusly your identity
starts to change and, like, yourenvironment starts to really
(11:23):
revolve, the way that youinteract with the world really
draws the world in in aparticular way, the way you
focus on it, the who you relateto, etc.
Etc.
When you see this shift and thepeople and the young adults
that you're working, workingwith, like, what are the first
signs that you start to see in aperson who's making this, who's
(11:45):
moving this needles, lookthrough this lens, done the work
and is starting to make thisshift?
What is it?
And maybe you see it in yourclinicians too.
I don't know, but like what isit that you see?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, no, this is a really fascinating conversation
because, like one of my closestfriends and colleague, him and I
have a little bit of a debateabout this all the time, about
what's, how do you define truechange?
Can you change your attachmentstyle, and we and we have this
really dynamic conversationaround it and and he can be like
(12:19):
Eric Fawson with elements hewould be another good like
conversation.
Let's call him.
Let's get him in here.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, we'll get us on there.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
We'll debate it, go back and forth.
I mean, we'll hash it on themountain bike on the climbs at
least We'll be happy because wecan't talk, and we'll
conceptualize our clients thisway, conceptualize ourselves
this way.
And so no to me, when it comesto deep, deep work, true
internal change, you're actuallyshifting the attachment system.
(12:48):
That's what's happening.
And so I say a system.
We can also say the wordidentity, because your identity
is kind of like your operatingsystem Right, it's just another
way to kind of think about it.
And so so your attachmentsystem, your attachment style,
really impacts the way youregulate yourself, emotional
regulation, and so having a lotof emotional dysregulation
(13:13):
affects identity development.
When your emotions are verychaotic, it's hard to kind of
like to shape a consistent,stable identity, because the way
you feel about something tellsyou about how you think about
something, and then how youthink about something affects
your identity.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Well, it's like well, it's going to tell you how to
act about something, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
If you're all, if you're, if you're very
disorganized and I love you oneminute, I hate you one minute
I'm into your country's.
Next minute I'm into like punk.
I mean.
I mean it's okay to like be allover the place and there's a
bit of like normal developmentfor young people to be in this
disarray.
(13:55):
But hopefully over time, withwith hopefully, they have
starting to crystallize theiridentity as they're becoming
more regulated.
So also, too, how you seeyourself, your self-esteem, your
self-concept also directlyrelates to your identity.
So if you're very dysregulated,you're very insecure.
You're going to be insecurewith yourself.
(14:16):
So you're going to be unsure ofyourself, which means you're
going to be unsure of youridentity.
And so it's like the identityis like the top of the pyramid.
But then you've got thesefoundation pieces that create
that identity.
And if it's really really rockyand not consistent, you're
(14:36):
going to be all over the map.
And then also your identity,the way you relate to people,
also creates your identity.
So if you've got chaoticrelationships, because you think
about it, how do you figure outwho you are?
We figure out who.
The reflection of other peopleand the connection with other
people, like what you see.
(14:59):
Intimacy into me, what you see,exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly.
I love that, and so some of myrelationships are chaotic.
It's going to be, it's going to, I don't know, I don't know
what is upside or upside downwith me, what I like, what kind
of people I like, and so so thatthat foundation, just those
building blocks, up to the peakof our identity yeah yeah, I'm,
(15:26):
I'm really interested in this,this debate.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
You've got going on the mountain bikes.
I'm surprised we haven't ridtogether yet.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Um but um I know, I know you know and you ride any
bikes like I will give you likemaybe, maybe it's maybe my
resistance riding with you.
Are you an e-bike or yourregular, like old school bike?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I'm I I old schooled for, you know, 40 years.
I'm old enough that I can.
I can say, yes, I like to carrymyself around on a bit of with
a bit of assistance.
So I just let people set thepace and I don't wear myself out
by the end of the top.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
You can ride longer.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, well, you know you get a lot longer ride out of
it too.
But this, this argument thatyou're having on the uphill,
that's, that's something, and,um, I'll say this I don't know
if I I don't know if I'm goingto confirm or did, I don't know
if I would confirm an argumentone way or the other about this
whole thing in in the, in this,in this one interview, you know,
(16:18):
we only got we only got about30 minutes or 40 minutes that we
took to talk about.
We're probably not going toresolve the issue today, but I
can say that any time that I've,without maybe necessarily
knowing it.
But look through this lens ofattachment, um, and there's a
couple of exercises that I didfor a while that were that they
(16:38):
come up for me as I think aboutthis, and it's in practicing
them or looking through thislens, I I was disorienting.
You know, it was like I wasmaking some shift about the way
that I oriented myself, not justto people, but to everything in
my world, including theassumptions and statements and
(17:01):
beliefs I had about myself.
Well, I'm this kind of person,right?
It's like, is that so?
Are you that person?
That?
Is that really the truestexpression of who you are, or is
there more to it?
Or are you maintainingsomething that you're clinging
to?
Where did it come from in thefirst place?
And you're asking kind of these,these deep level questions, and
if you start to, if you startto like, pull that card that
(17:23):
makes the deck fall, it'sdisorienting.
You're like, holy crap, mywhole world has to now like
reorient in some way.
Um, and I, I don't even knowwhere I stand right now.
I'm just gonna have to standstill for a minute and let it
all fall, let it all fall backinto place and see what comes up
.
Like you know I, you know, is itis, is change of your, your
(17:45):
attachment style, possible?
I, I don't know.
Um, I I want to say yes, but,and at the same time and I know
that shift like shifts in it,are possible but you can shift
the dial on something thatdoesn't make the dial different,
that doesn't make the mechanismthat you're, that you're, you
(18:06):
know adjusting different.
You know you still, I still fitwithin the context of the body
that I walk around in right, andthe face that I that comes out
to the world and the people thatI relate to.
So those I mean one.
Any shift that you make,whether we can answer that
question or not, is verychallenging, because if you're
talking about a chaotic person,they're used to like this kind
of environment and then theyshift.
(18:27):
It's like we're used to likethis kind of environment and
then they shift.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
It's like we're gonna , we're gonna stabilize this.
So I, you know, as you say,there's a version of us that
lives in each one of the styles.
Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, I, yeah,I, I think where, where?
Um, eric fossi land is that?
I think we we kind of go backand forth on this a little bit,
I think to really justcompletely change your attached
to style.
I don't think it's going tohappen during your whole
development and your whole lifeand but I think the a, how much
(18:59):
you're in that quadrant of of ofpreoccupied or disorganized,
can shift.
You can't get a little bit morecloser to the middle of being
secure and and then maybe, maybewith like and then maybe with?
For example, if you're in arelationship with secure people,
you may be more likely to showup more secure with secure
people.
If you're in a relationshipwith a preoccupied person, you
(19:26):
might show up more preoccupied,so you're more likely to show up
secure, preoccupied, so youmight be more so if you, you're
more likely to show up or avoidit if that's the counterbalance
right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah and and so soback to your question too is
like, how does that process looklike?
Where I think the thing is thatyou, I think just like first
being aware of your, of yourpatterns, your style, and and so
(19:47):
I think that's the work,because I think the thing is
that when you're, when you're,when you're preoccupied,
disorganized or avoidant, youreally don't know what secure
looks like.
You really don't like you mighthave an idea, but you're just,
you're operating the way you,when you show up preoccupied or
(20:08):
disorganized or avoidant, that'sjust like, that's just normal
to you and that's how normalrelated related to function.
So the key is understanding,like your style, and then the
big part of the process, too, isunderstanding what is the how
does secure show up inrelationships?
Yeah and yeah, and I always usethe um, the text, the uh texting
uh example for this a lot where.
(20:30):
So when you text somebody like,say, you text like your spouse
or a girlfriend or boyfriend ora close friend and you don't
hear from them for hours apreoccupied, preoccupied person
they can put them in a spirallike, oh my gosh, what did I do
wrong?
Did I piss them off?
Or you can go down the jealousyroad.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Oh, they must be cheating on me, They'll come out
right.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, and they go down that road really quickly
and that person on the other endcould just be busy at work, or
their phone could have died, orthey're just busy.
You're not the most importantthing to them right now, and so
so they're.
And so the thing is likethey're in their, their anxiety
about that response turns theminto the tailspin, and they can,
like they.
(21:14):
What they'll do is they'llstart me blowing up the other
person's phone or what's goingon and start accusing them of
things as well too, and so.
So the key is is talking okay,so when you send a text, you
feel that anxiety.
What?
What would a secure person do?
So the key key is like so youstart like identifying the
feelings around the.
You identify the feelings ofpreoccupied or avoided or
(21:35):
disorganized, and you help themregulate that.
So you're teaching regulationskills.
As they're feeling that style,then you're also teaching them
about how to respond securely.
So the things that happen, theway to kind of shift attachment
is emotional.
Regulation is actually showingup securely and actually being
(21:55):
in relationships with securepeople.
So that's the recipe to helpyou move more in that middle
quadrant.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, well, and you're.
I mean, it kind of reminds meof epigenetics.
It's kind of like you know,you've got tons of genetic code
but you've got a picker thatsays you know this color eyes
and this color hair and thiscolor skin and everything else
(22:24):
In this model, like you know, ifwe're looking at it, and models
only do a certain kind of job,but like there's, if we're
looking at it, and and modelsonly do certain kind of job, but
like there's a version of youthat is that is stable, and
there's a version of you that ispreoccupied, and there's a
version of you that's avoidantand there's a.
You know, like you've, you'vegot a version of you that it can
exist at at any end of thismaybe it's not a spectrum, or
(22:50):
you know, in at any any for anycorner of the quadrants, right,
um and in order, if you've all,if all you've ever experienced
is, say, preoccupied, or allyou've ever experienced is is
chaotic, then you, in order tobe able to embrace anything that
looks like the other styles,you've got to know what it looks
like.
So you know you're giving themand you know what we know is is
a is a stable.
Attachment style causes a personto be able to do a lot more
(23:12):
things.
They can hold jobs and they canhave stable relationships and
they can manage a budget and doall kinds of things because
they're not in this chaoticrelational matrix with the
things in their life and that'snot just people, but their money
and their car and theireverything else Like it really
shows up in all these places.
(23:34):
And if they have a, if theyhave a version that they can
like, okay, this is what I lovethis, this question.
It's like what does that looklike?
You know well, a stable wouldlook like this and and I would
behave this way and I would showup to work this way and I would
drive this way, you know.
And they start creating thisversion of themselves that lives
in a stable, attachment style,and the identity on the other
(23:56):
side of that is going to lookdifferent.
They're going to be the sameperson, but their identity is
going to look different to therest of the world and the people
who show up in their lives aregoing to shift.
I mean, it's very exciting workto do, I think, honestly, for
yourself and to help otherpeople with, but it's also and I
tell people all the time if, inlooking at this kind of work,
(24:20):
what you come up with as afeeling is not terrified, you
probably aren't paying attention.
I think that terrified is anappropriate response to doing
this kind of work yeah, becauseit's.
It's not for the faint of heart.
It's very difficult and youknow the people that you're
working with are very brave togo do it and the way, and what
(24:41):
terrifies you about that work isyour attachment style.
That's, that's right which isso true I'll get it and so the
way.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
so, for example, like , because what we're talking
about is really deep, deep work,deep connection, deep emotional
work, and and alan shore, whois a um, as a, like a researcher
from, uh, I think, university,california, I mean there's tons
of research on this stuff and hetalks about the right brain.
Connecting with the right brainis what's really deep therapy.
(25:12):
That's deep therapy, right,that's deep connection.
And so so you talk about aperson who's avoidant and you're
like saying like you're, likeyou're not connected with your
clients on a deep level.
That could be, that could beterrifying for an avoidant
person.
Um, and then, but then with apreoccupied person preoccupied
person it can be flooding, theycan get flooded by it, they can
(25:33):
get like they can get so wrappedup into the other person to
have poor boundaries, and thenthey then they get dysregulated
by the other person's emotionsand then that's frightening.
And so that so secure, sosecure clinician, secure
therapist can connect deeply butdon't lose a sense of self,
they don't get flooded by theother person's emotions in
(25:54):
session, they don't lose sightof like, like they don't, they
don't start coming securelyattached.
Therapists also provide themost authentic real empathy
because it's really reallyproviding connection on the
level of that person and not toomuch reflecting yourself into
(26:17):
the process that a preoccupiedperson would, and so yeah, it's,
it's, it's yeah it'sinteresting how the fear of this
really hard work and how youexperience it is directly
related to your attachment yeah,well, um, you know, I I have
your, I have uh engagedtransition sticker on my laptop.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You should know oh cool you know, connection is the
connection, is the interventionand the solution.
You know the outcome, yeah, theoutcome, yeah, and it's like,
like, like your attachment, yourattachment style is the key and
the door.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
You know what I mean and and and, when we're in this
space, is that, like I didn't.
I didn't choose my parents, Ididn't choose how.
I came into this world Right,and some of us have maybe were
lucky, got in.
(27:17):
This happened.
We just grabbed the, we gotlucky and got into a secure home
environment.
We were maybe in a secure, likesocial, like social, economic
setting.
I wasn't during wartime or Iwas.
I happened to be lucky to beborn in a in a stable economic
country, and I mean all thosepieces, I mean all these things
shape attachment.
(27:38):
They really do, yeah, and so,um, and so I didn't choose my
attachment and it's and so Ireally try to frame it as like
this is not a pathological label, this is not like um, and it's
more about like, okay, this is,this is like your system that
you were kind of born with andso understanding your system and
(27:59):
and how to respond to it, andso, yeah, so I think the thing
is it's like I really try toframe it that way, so, so people
don't feel like, oh, I'm, I'm,oh, I'm disorganized, I'm
hopeless and right, yeah and um,it's hard work and it's long
work and you're going to beworking your whole life, you're
going to be working whole lifeto man to, to, to manage where
(28:23):
disorganized attachment has lessdisruption on your life.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
It's something you're going to be doing your whole
life well, and I think thatyou're also talking about a
person if they've, if they'velived, let's say, chaotic for a
lot of their lives and theybegin to acquire skills, that
that that move them more towardsstable.
But they have both ends of thisspectrum to draw from.
(28:47):
They've lived both ways.
You know, if I, if I'm a personand I've got a, you know I came
out.
If I came out stable, let's saythat I am, let's say that I am.
If I came out stable, I'm notsaying that I am.
Let's say that I am.
If I came out stable, I don'tknow what.
I'm not trying to go towardschaotic.
I'm probably not trying to gotowards either of the others.
Even though I have aspects of itthat are available to me, it's
(29:08):
not something I'm going togravitate towards.
This person who's been in achaotic place but is trying to
move towards stable Chaoticalways exists.
It's always there.
They don't necessarily alwaysbehave that way because they're
learning how to do somethingdifferent, but it's always there
and part of their repertoire,which means for the rest of your
life.
You have to actively choosewhich of these styles I'm going
(29:29):
to express, and that I mean.
I think especially in thebeginning, it can be very
exhausting, you know what I meanLike it's just emotionally
exhausting, where you're alwayschoosing and I mean I remember
doing early exercises and likejust thought management, like
inner dialogue management andword management.
(29:50):
It's like what am I saying tomyself and how am I saying it to
myself and why am I saying itthat way?
And are there, are therenegatives?
Am I deprecating myself?
Am I?
You know where all thesesources of these words come from
and what do they mean to me?
And what you know?
It was a.
It was a practice that Istarted and at first, like I had
to really just do it because Ihated it and then I could not do
(30:16):
it and then it was just part ofthe background, it was just
part of what Routine, part ofthe routine.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, think about what was happening to your brain
, how you were rewiring yourbrain.
Yeah, literally, you wererewiring your brain and yeah,
literally, you were rewritingyour brain.
And I kind of almost thinkabout like trying to learn how
to play an instrument for thefirst time, how, how emotionally
taxing that is.
Like try to like focus on whereyour fingers are on the on the
guitar, on the on the keys andand the beat, and it's like it's
(30:48):
exhausting.
You're yeah, you're buildingthose deep, deep emotional
tracks and it is reallyexhausting and it's something,
it's a labor that it is yourwhole life and it does get
easier.
It's like it does get easierand so hopefully, you'll show up
(31:09):
more frequently in the securecategory, less frequently the
the other categories, and somaking those choices is a lot
easier in the first place, right, yeah, yeah and and so and it's
also another part a big part ofthat, too, is being like the
way your brain can heal or shift.
(31:31):
We're talking about healer.
Shifting is being in, um, beingin stable relationships.
That's probably going to be themost way to shift your brain.
The quickest, too, is being instable, consistent relationships
with people.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Anchors, yeah well, man, I I think we're just gonna.
I'm gonna reach out to alanshore, I'm gonna get you, we'll
get a couple other guys in here.
We're just going to.
I'm going to reach out to AlanShore, I'm going to get you,
we'll get a couple other guys inhere.
We're going to have a big groupup.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think it'd be fun to get Eric in here.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, eric Foss and I with Elements, and yeah, we, we
we talk attachment, all thetime, yeah, and we talk, we see
it through our, throughourselves and our relationships,
our clients, and so anotherthing, too, I'm real excited
about is that I stumbled upon apodcast with Alan Shore and
(32:25):
Uberman.
You know the Uberman Lab.
Yeah, love that guy.
He's a neurologist and so heinterviews Alan Shore and they
get into a lot of conversation,which is really awesome, and
uberman and him talk about whatis good therapy and like what
does the good therapy look like?
(32:45):
And I I haven't heard anybodyexplain or discuss it in such a
clear way that I've been liketexting this podcast, a lot of
different people and and andlike our, our clinicians here
are listening to it we'retalking about it Share it with
me when you get a chance.
That'd be great.
Yeah, I totally will.
Yeah, I will, I will.
So it's like as soon as wedisconnect from here, I'll share
(33:05):
with you.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah Well, jack.
Dr Jack Hinman, thank you somuch for joining us today.
This has been Mental HealthMatters on WPBM 1037, the voice
of Ashland Todd Weatherly, yourhost, and look forward to seeing
you next time.
Take care.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Thanks, Todd.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Appreciate it.
I need to find my way, my way,my way, my way.
Thank you.
Now you should only relax inhere.
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(34:22):
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power bearers, Power bearer,power bearer in these power
(34:51):
bearers.
Outro Music Bye.
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(35:37):
I need a little help.
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(35:57):
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(36:18):
I'm not a little power-web, oh,Power-web, power-web, power-web
, Bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
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(36:58):
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
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I need to find my way home.
(37:20):
Find my way home.
Hello folks, welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
On WPBM 1037, the voice ofAsheville Independent
commercial-free radio, I'm ToddWeatherly, your host therapeutic
consultant.
Behavioral health expert.
With me today is Dr Jack Hinman.
Jack is the founding executivedirector of Engage Transitions,
(00:21):
a therapeutic environment therein Cedar City, utah.
Engage's engages purposes toprovide therapeutic support for
young adults struggling withtheir mental health that is
often limiting their ability tobe independent.
Jack is a licensed clinicalpsychologist, passionate
clinician and leader in helpingyoung adults cross that bridge
into healthy and engagingindependence.
His unique blend of clinicaland administrative experience
(00:43):
has provided Jack acomprehensive perspective on the
therapeutic journey.
He believes through the powerof connection we thrive.
Jack's clinical foundations aredriven in attachment theory and
dialectical behavioral therapy,otherwise known as DBT.
Jack has also served on theboard of directors for the
National Association ofTherapeutic Programs and Schools
(01:04):
, as well as having a privatepractice working primarily with
young students from the localcommunity.
Jack loves living in theoutdoor rich area of Cedar City
with his wife of 23 years andtheir two teenage children.
Jack is an avid mountain bikerand a coach for his son's high
school mountain bike team.
Jack, you know, for everybodyout there that might be maybe
not quite as engaged as you andI might be around this topic.
(01:30):
First thing and we'll gosomewhere with this, but first
thing let's define attachment.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Attachment was traditionally seen as like early
development, younger childrenor people that, hey, maybe were
adopted and had really earlyrelational trauma.
That was kind of where the thebox that we're kind of operating
from and but now we're kind ofmoving from, like, like we're
moving from that and seeing itas a lot more than that's the
case.
And so attachment is that yourearly formative years, um, and
(01:58):
how that development, thoseexperiences shape and form your,
like, your neurodevelopment,the way it shapes your
attachment, your attachmentsystem.
And so all of us haveattachment styles and our early
development affects that, ourattachment styles.
And there's, there's, um,there's typically four
attachment styles.
So the one that we all want towant to show up more and the one
(02:22):
that we want to be more in theplace of is secure attachment,
stable, consistent, predictablehomes, stable attachment figures
.
And then you have what we callinsecure attachment but people
label as preoccupied attachment.
And so those people have theyhave, they have low avoidance in
relationships but a highanxiety in relationships.
(02:43):
And so a person who's gotpreoccupied attachment when they
when they get, when they getstressed out or anxious about
relationships, they lean intorelationships.
So when preoccupied, so thinkabout you, they're preoccupied
about relationships.
So they're typically reallyconcerned about relationships,
(03:06):
concerned about those things.
And then you have the other.
You have avoidant, which ishigh avoidance and low anxiety.
That's on the pole, the polaron high avoidance and high
anxiety when it comesrelationships.
So they're very, very detachedfrom relationships.
They get overwhelmed byintimacy in relationships and um
(03:27):
and so when they get stressedout and stressed out in
relationships, they lean back.
And as we and we talk aboutthese different attachment
styles, there's some bit of likesuperpowers or some strengths
within each attachment stylethat show can show up very well
in work and we'll kind of we cantalk a little bit about that
down the road.
And then you have disorganizedtype, which is a combination of
(03:51):
you're preoccupied and avoidant,and so the stress they feel is
that where they feel veryfearful about abandonment in
relationships.
And so when they feel likeone's going to fill up, they
feel abandonment or feel likeone's going to leave them, they
lean into relationships.
And then, when they startleaning into relationships, they
(04:11):
get super anxious about beingtoo dependent on the
relationships.
So they pull back In the worldthat you and I are in, typically
clients that are in long-termcare, who need like residential
treatment who and maybe go tomultiple settings, do the
continuing care maybe intreatment for three to four
years typically fall intodisorganized category and um.
(04:35):
And so over the years um, theclients I've worked with was we
give them an attachment test anda high percentage fall into the
disorganized category that arein treatment.
And then I've also met withgroups of clinicians and it's
quite fascinating what are thetypical attachment styles
(04:56):
showing up with people who arein the working profession?
But you see a lot of people whotend to want to work in the
helping profession, whopreoccupied attached people,
because they really lean intorelationships, they get a lot of
their needs from relationshipsand those things and so it's
interesting to kind of play that.
And so I think the last time Ilooked into-.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
You have to worry about enmeshment in their work,
I'm sure as well.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah, I'm going to take a little side note about
therapy, but it's reallyfascinating to look at outcomes
of therapy based on theattachment style of the
therapist, and some of theresearch I've looked at is that
sometimes the therapist'sattachment style has a larger
impact on the outcome than theclient's attachment style, and
(05:42):
so our attachment style is thefoundation of how we show up and
work.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah, so it's really important to know what is your
operating system.
It's our overall operatingsystem, the same way that's on
this computer that we're usingtoday, right now on our phone,
and it really operates.
The whole phone, operates thewhole computer, and now cars
have operating systems, and soyou can even maybe take it a
step further.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Your refrigerator has an operating system these days.
Yeah, yeah, if it's not workingright.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Your eggs and your milk is going to spoil in that
fridge pretty quickly.
And, yeah, cars, and you cantake it one step further is that
it's even like it's.
It's even like our relationaloperating system.
So it's our operating system.
It comes the way we regulateour emotions.
It's our operating system, waythat we conceptualize ourself
and the way we see others.
It's also the operating systemin the way we the kind of stress
(06:40):
we feel in relationships, andthen how do we respond to that
stress?
So you think about work.
It creates emotion, there'srelationships, and so you talked
about uncertainty.
And if you, when you thinkabout attachment and people who
have attachment distress andstruggle with have attachment
security, uncertainty is can beone of the number one triggers
(07:03):
for them.
And so then you talk about theworld that you and I work in.
Is that we're doing?
We're we're supporting peoplethat are very uncertain.
And and you, if you talk tolike a testing psychologist or
anybody like I, think the thingis that the thing that, like we,
we think we're good atpredicting behavior, but we're
actually the worst at predictingbehavior because our clients
(07:26):
are very uncertain, and thething about attachment, it's a
great window into understandingyourself and it gives you the
insight in how you show up andwork in relationships so in a
quad style assessment, you know,you see this amorphous blob
that you got a little, you knowa little bit of territory in the
(07:49):
disorganized, a littleterritory in the preoccupied, a
little territory stable.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Ideally you want to have a lot in the stable um and
and so that profile gives youyour profile.
You've got a little bit of allof them, right.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah, and you show and then like, yeah, if you want
to, if you want to learn moreabout your own personal
attachment, there's a greatorganization and website called
the attachment project.
Yeah, that's cool, yeah, yeah,it's cool.
And so it gives you that littlequarter that you're talking
about where like and can.
Even even if you're um, yourprimary, uh, attachment figures
are no longer with us anymore.
(08:26):
Like your parent, like your momand your dad, you can still get
an idea of kind of how you fallinto romantic relationships,
your parents and those things.
And just even taking that testactually is pretty, um,
informative, just the way youjust get the answer.
His questions will bring up alot of information about
yourself and so, yeah, it's likewe show up differently in
(08:48):
different relationships anddifferent situations can trigger
that attachment and security inthose things.
Definitely.
And you think about work.
It's very relational.
Especially the work we work inis extremely relational.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, well, and you know, I I think about
looking through this lens, uh,and as it relates to identity,
um, and you know, if you'retalking about, as you say, many
of the individuals that that endup in long-term treatment or
care, those kinds of things havea have a disorganized profile,
(09:30):
disorganized attachment profile.
So what you're trying to do isis cause them to shift that a
bit.
You're moving the needle right,and and and through that re like
.
That's a whole new identity.
It's a whole different way ofof being in the world.
Um, um, for a person who notonly has this attachment style
but also has probably forged anidentity around some of the the
(09:52):
challenges of their condition.
You know they they're, you knowthey suffer from depression or
anxiety.
They got this profile of a sickperson in their mind and
they've identified with it.
Um and like, what is the?
In chemistry?
There's this, uh, it's one ofmy favorite ones.
I use it my notes all the time,but it means this yields
(10:14):
something else and it's a it's alittle arrow, um, and in some,
in some formations, you've gotyou've got chemicals that yield
each other, so one will, it'llyield that way and it'll yield
the other way, and the sign is ais a half arrow on top and a
half arrow on bottom.
That's one of my favoritesymbols, but I could see that
(10:37):
symbol existing betweenattachment and identity, um, and
that, like, if you're lookingthrough this window, this lens
of your attachment, style andand everything that comes up as
a result of that, you start togo straight towards your
identity.
It's like, if you, if I, if Iquestion the way that I attach
(10:59):
to things, not just people likethere's ways I orient all kinds
of stuff in the world that arehints at this window, this lens
that we're talking about, and asopposed to, if you start to
change, that you walk into aplace and suddenly you've
adjusted your view through thislens and thusly your identity
starts to change and, like, yourenvironment starts to really
(11:23):
revolve, the way that youinteract with the world really
draws the world in in aparticular way, the way you
focus on it, the who you relateto, etc.
Etc.
When you see this shift and thepeople and the young adults
that you're working, workingwith, like, what are the first
signs that you start to see in aperson who's making this, who's
(11:45):
moving this needles, lookthrough this lens, done the work
and is starting to make thisshift?
What is it?
And maybe you see it in yourclinicians too.
I don't know, but like what isit that you see?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, no, this is a really fascinating conversation
because, like one of my closestfriends and colleague, him and I
have a little bit of a debateabout this all the time, about
what's, how do you define truechange?
Can you change your attachmentstyle, and we and we have this
really dynamic conversationaround it and and he can be like
(12:19):
Eric Fawson with elements hewould be another good like
conversation.
Let's call him.
Let's get him in here.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, we'll get us on there.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
We'll debate it, go back and forth.
I mean, we'll hash it on themountain bike on the climbs at
least We'll be happy because wecan't talk, and we'll
conceptualize our clients thisway, conceptualize ourselves
this way.
And so no to me, when it comesto deep, deep work, true
internal change, you're actuallyshifting the attachment system.
(12:48):
That's what's happening.
And so I say a system.
We can also say the wordidentity, because your identity
is kind of like your operatingsystem Right, it's just another
way to kind of think about it.
And so so your attachmentsystem, your attachment style,
really impacts the way youregulate yourself, emotional
regulation, and so having a lotof emotional dysregulation
(13:13):
affects identity development.
When your emotions are verychaotic, it's hard to kind of
like to shape a consistent,stable identity, because the way
you feel about something tellsyou about how you think about
something, and then how youthink about something affects
your identity.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Well, it's like well, it's going to tell you how to
act about something, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
If you're all, if you're, if you're very
disorganized and I love you oneminute, I hate you one minute
I'm into your country's.
Next minute I'm into like punk.
I mean.
I mean it's okay to like be allover the place and there's a
bit of like normal developmentfor young people to be in this
disarray.
(13:55):
But hopefully over time, withwith hopefully, they have
starting to crystallize theiridentity as they're becoming
more regulated.
So also, too, how you seeyourself, your self-esteem, your
self-concept also directlyrelates to your identity.
So if you're very dysregulated,you're very insecure.
You're going to be insecurewith yourself.
(14:16):
So you're going to be unsure ofyourself, which means you're
going to be unsure of youridentity.
And so it's like the identityis like the top of the pyramid.
But then you've got thesefoundation pieces that create
that identity.
And if it's really really rockyand not consistent, you're
(14:36):
going to be all over the map.
And then also your identity,the way you relate to people,
also creates your identity.
So if you've got chaoticrelationships, because you think
about it, how do you figure outwho you are?
We figure out who.
The reflection of other peopleand the connection with other
people, like what you see.
(14:59):
Intimacy into me, what you see,exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly.
I love that, and so some of myrelationships are chaotic.
It's going to be, it's going to, I don't know, I don't know
what is upside or upside downwith me, what I like, what kind
of people I like, and so so thatthat foundation, just those
building blocks, up to the peakof our identity yeah yeah, I'm,
(15:26):
I'm really interested in this,this debate.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
You've got going on the mountain bikes.
I'm surprised we haven't ridtogether yet.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Um but um I know, I know you know and you ride any
bikes like I will give you likemaybe, maybe it's maybe my
resistance riding with you.
Are you an e-bike or yourregular, like old school bike?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I'm I I old schooled for, you know, 40 years.
I'm old enough that I can.
I can say, yes, I like to carrymyself around on a bit of with
a bit of assistance.
So I just let people set thepace and I don't wear myself out
by the end of the top.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
You can ride longer.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, well, you know you get a lot longer ride out of
it too.
But this, this argument thatyou're having on the uphill,
that's, that's something, and,um, I'll say this I don't know
if I I don't know if I'm goingto confirm or did, I don't know
if I would confirm an argumentone way or the other about this
whole thing in in the, in this,in this one interview, you know,
(16:18):
we only got we only got about30 minutes or 40 minutes that we
took to talk about.
We're probably not going toresolve the issue today, but I
can say that any time that I've,without maybe necessarily
knowing it.
But look through this lens ofattachment, um, and there's a
couple of exercises that I didfor a while that were that they
(16:38):
come up for me as I think aboutthis, and it's in practicing
them or looking through thislens, I I was disorienting.
You know, it was like I wasmaking some shift about the way
that I oriented myself, not justto people, but to everything in
my world, including theassumptions and statements and
(17:01):
beliefs I had about myself.
Well, I'm this kind of person,right?
It's like, is that so?
Are you that person?
That?
Is that really the truestexpression of who you are, or is
there more to it?
Or are you maintainingsomething that you're clinging
to?
Where did it come from in thefirst place?
And you're asking kind of these,these deep level questions, and
if you start to, if you startto like, pull that card that
(17:23):
makes the deck fall, it'sdisorienting.
You're like, holy crap, mywhole world has to now like
reorient in some way.
Um, and I, I don't even knowwhere I stand right now.
I'm just gonna have to standstill for a minute and let it
all fall, let it all fall backinto place and see what comes up
.
Like you know I, you know, is itis, is change of your, your
(17:45):
attachment style, possible?
I, I don't know.
Um, I I want to say yes, but,and at the same time and I know
that shift like shifts in it,are possible but you can shift
the dial on something thatdoesn't make the dial different,
that doesn't make the mechanismthat you're, that you're, you
(18:06):
know adjusting different.
You know you still, I still fitwithin the context of the body
that I walk around in right, andthe face that I that comes out
to the world and the people thatI relate to.
So those I mean one.
Any shift that you make,whether we can answer that
question or not, is verychallenging, because if you're
talking about a chaotic person,they're used to like this kind
of environment and then theyshift.
(18:27):
It's like we're used to likethis kind of environment and
then they shift.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
It's like we're gonna , we're gonna stabilize this.
So I, you know, as you say,there's a version of us that
lives in each one of the styles.
Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, I, yeah,I, I think where, where?
Um, eric fossi land is that?
I think we we kind of go backand forth on this a little bit,
I think to really justcompletely change your attached
to style.
I don't think it's going tohappen during your whole
development and your whole lifeand but I think the a, how much
(18:59):
you're in that quadrant of of ofpreoccupied or disorganized,
can shift.
You can't get a little bit morecloser to the middle of being
secure and and then maybe, maybewith like and then maybe with?
For example, if you're in arelationship with secure people,
you may be more likely to showup more secure with secure
people.
If you're in a relationshipwith a preoccupied person, you
(19:26):
might show up more preoccupied,so you're more likely to show up
secure, preoccupied, so youmight be more so if you, you're
more likely to show up or avoidit if that's the counterbalance
right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah and and so soback to your question too is
like, how does that process looklike?
Where I think the thing is thatyou, I think just like first
being aware of your, of yourpatterns, your style, and and so
(19:47):
I think that's the work,because I think the thing is
that when you're, when you're,when you're preoccupied,
disorganized or avoidant, youreally don't know what secure
looks like.
You really don't like you mighthave an idea, but you're just,
you're operating the way you,when you show up preoccupied or
(20:08):
disorganized or avoidant, that'sjust like, that's just normal
to you and that's how normalrelated related to function.
So the key is understanding,like your style, and then the
big part of the process, too, isunderstanding what is the how
does secure show up inrelationships?
Yeah and yeah, and I always usethe um, the text, the uh texting
uh example for this a lot where.
(20:30):
So when you text somebody like,say, you text like your spouse
or a girlfriend or boyfriend ora close friend and you don't
hear from them for hours apreoccupied, preoccupied person
they can put them in a spirallike, oh my gosh, what did I do
wrong?
Did I piss them off?
Or you can go down the jealousyroad.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Oh, they must be cheating on me, They'll come out
right.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, and they go down that road really quickly
and that person on the other endcould just be busy at work, or
their phone could have died, orthey're just busy.
You're not the most importantthing to them right now, and so
so they're.
And so the thing is likethey're in their, their anxiety
about that response turns theminto the tailspin, and they can,
like they.
(21:14):
What they'll do is they'llstart me blowing up the other
person's phone or what's goingon and start accusing them of
things as well too, and so.
So the key is is talking okay,so when you send a text, you
feel that anxiety.
What?
What would a secure person do?
So the key key is like so youstart like identifying the
feelings around the.
You identify the feelings ofpreoccupied or avoided or
(21:35):
disorganized, and you help themregulate that.
So you're teaching regulationskills.
As they're feeling that style,then you're also teaching them
about how to respond securely.
So the things that happen, theway to kind of shift attachment
is emotional.
Regulation is actually showingup securely and actually being
(21:55):
in relationships with securepeople.
So that's the recipe to helpyou move more in that middle
quadrant.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah, well, and you're.
I mean, it kind of reminds meof epigenetics.
It's kind of like you know,you've got tons of genetic code
but you've got a picker thatsays you know this color eyes
and this color hair and thiscolor skin and everything else
(22:24):
In this model, like you know, ifwe're looking at it, and models
only do a certain kind of job,but like there's, if we're
looking at it, and and modelsonly do certain kind of job, but
like there's a version of youthat is that is stable, and
there's a version of you that ispreoccupied, and there's a
version of you that's avoidantand there's a.
You know, like you've, you'vegot a version of you that it can
exist at at any end of thismaybe it's not a spectrum, or
(22:50):
you know, in at any any for anycorner of the quadrants, right,
um and in order, if you've all,if all you've ever experienced
is, say, preoccupied, or allyou've ever experienced is is
chaotic, then you, in order tobe able to embrace anything that
looks like the other styles,you've got to know what it looks
like.
So you know you're giving themand you know what we know is is
a is a stable.
Attachment style causes a personto be able to do a lot more
(23:12):
things.
They can hold jobs and they canhave stable relationships and
they can manage a budget and doall kinds of things because
they're not in this chaoticrelational matrix with the
things in their life and that'snot just people, but their money
and their car and theireverything else Like it really
shows up in all these places.
(23:34):
And if they have a, if theyhave a version that they can
like, okay, this is what I lovethis, this question.
It's like what does that looklike?
You know well, a stable wouldlook like this and and I would
behave this way and I would showup to work this way and I would
drive this way, you know.
And they start creating thisversion of themselves that lives
in a stable, attachment style,and the identity on the other
(23:56):
side of that is going to lookdifferent.
They're going to be the sameperson, but their identity is
going to look different to therest of the world and the people
who show up in their lives aregoing to shift.
I mean, it's very exciting workto do, I think, honestly, for
yourself and to help otherpeople with, but it's also and I
tell people all the time if, inlooking at this kind of work,
(24:20):
what you come up with as afeeling is not terrified, you
probably aren't paying attention.
I think that terrified is anappropriate response to doing
this kind of work yeah, becauseit's.
It's not for the faint of heart.
It's very difficult and youknow the people that you're
working with are very brave togo do it and the way, and what
(24:41):
terrifies you about that work isyour attachment style.
That's, that's right which isso true I'll get it and so the
way.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
so, for example, like , because what we're talking
about is really deep, deep work,deep connection, deep emotional
work, and and alan shore, whois a um, as a, like a researcher
from, uh, I think, university,california, I mean there's tons
of research on this stuff and hetalks about the right brain.
Connecting with the right brainis what's really deep therapy.
(25:12):
That's deep therapy, right,that's deep connection.
And so so you talk about aperson who's avoidant and you're
like saying like you're, likeyou're not connected with your
clients on a deep level.
That could be, that could beterrifying for an avoidant
person.
Um, and then, but then with apreoccupied person preoccupied
person it can be flooding, theycan get flooded by it, they can
(25:33):
get like they can get so wrappedup into the other person to
have poor boundaries, and thenthey then they get dysregulated
by the other person's emotionsand then that's frightening.
And so that so secure, sosecure clinician, secure
therapist can connect deeply butdon't lose a sense of self,
they don't get flooded by theother person's emotions in
(25:54):
session, they don't lose sightof like, like they don't, they
don't start coming securelyattached.
Therapists also provide themost authentic real empathy
because it's really reallyproviding connection on the
level of that person and not toomuch reflecting yourself into
(26:17):
the process that a preoccupiedperson would, and so yeah, it's,
it's, it's yeah it'sinteresting how the fear of this
really hard work and how youexperience it is directly
related to your attachment yeah,well, um, you know, I I have
your, I have uh engagedtransition sticker on my laptop.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You should know oh cool you know, connection is the
connection, is the interventionand the solution.
You know the outcome, yeah, theoutcome, yeah, and it's like,
like, like your attachment, yourattachment style is the key and
the door.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
You know what I mean and and and, when we're in this
space, is that, like I didn't.
I didn't choose my parents, Ididn't choose how.
I came into this world Right,and some of us have maybe were
lucky, got in.
(27:17):
This happened.
We just grabbed the, we gotlucky and got into a secure home
environment.
We were maybe in a secure, likesocial, like social, economic
setting.
I wasn't during wartime or Iwas.
I happened to be lucky to beborn in a in a stable economic
country, and I mean all thosepieces, I mean all these things
shape attachment.
(27:38):
They really do, yeah, and so,um, and so I didn't choose my
attachment and it's and so Ireally try to frame it as like
this is not a pathological label, this is not like um, and it's
more about like, okay, this is,this is like your system that
you were kind of born with andso understanding your system and
(27:59):
and how to respond to it, andso, yeah, so I think the thing
is it's like I really try toframe it that way, so, so people
don't feel like, oh, I'm, I'm,oh, I'm disorganized, I'm
hopeless and right, yeah and um,it's hard work and it's long
work and you're going to beworking your whole life, you're
going to be working whole lifeto man to, to, to manage where
(28:23):
disorganized attachment has lessdisruption on your life.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
It's something you're going to be doing your whole
life well, and I think thatyou're also talking about a
person if they've, if they'velived, let's say, chaotic for a
lot of their lives and theybegin to acquire skills, that
that that move them more towardsstable.
But they have both ends of thisspectrum to draw from.
(28:47):
They've lived both ways.
You know, if I, if I'm a personand I've got a, you know I came
out.
If I came out stable, let's saythat I am, let's say that I am.
If I came out stable, I'm notsaying that I am.
Let's say that I am.
If I came out stable, I don'tknow what.
I'm not trying to go towardschaotic.
I'm probably not trying to gotowards either of the others.
Even though I have aspects of itthat are available to me, it's
(29:08):
not something I'm going togravitate towards.
This person who's been in achaotic place but is trying to
move towards stable Chaoticalways exists.
It's always there.
They don't necessarily alwaysbehave that way because they're
learning how to do somethingdifferent, but it's always there
and part of their repertoire,which means for the rest of your
life.
You have to actively choosewhich of these styles I'm going
(29:29):
to express, and that I mean.
I think especially in thebeginning, it can be very
exhausting, you know what I meanLike it's just emotionally
exhausting, where you're alwayschoosing and I mean I remember
doing early exercises and likejust thought management, like
inner dialogue management andword management.
(29:50):
It's like what am I saying tomyself and how am I saying it to
myself and why am I saying itthat way?
And are there, are therenegatives?
Am I deprecating myself?
Am I?
You know where all thesesources of these words come from
and what do they mean to me?
And what you know?
It was a.
It was a practice that Istarted and at first, like I had
to really just do it because Ihated it and then I could not do
(30:16):
it and then it was just part ofthe background, it was just
part of what Routine, part ofthe routine.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, think about what was happening to your brain
, how you were rewiring yourbrain.
Yeah, literally, you wererewiring your brain and yeah,
literally, you were rewritingyour brain.
And I kind of almost thinkabout like trying to learn how
to play an instrument for thefirst time, how, how emotionally
taxing that is.
Like try to like focus on whereyour fingers are on the on the
guitar, on the on the keys andand the beat, and it's like it's
(30:48):
exhausting.
You're yeah, you're buildingthose deep, deep emotional
tracks and it is reallyexhausting and it's something,
it's a labor that it is yourwhole life and it does get
easier.
It's like it does get easierand so hopefully, you'll show up
(31:09):
more frequently in the securecategory, less frequently the
the other categories, and somaking those choices is a lot
easier in the first place, right, yeah, yeah and and so and it's
also another part a big part ofthat, too, is being like the
way your brain can heal or shift.
(31:31):
We're talking about healer.
Shifting is being in, um, beingin stable relationships.
That's probably going to be themost way to shift your brain.
The quickest, too, is being instable, consistent relationships
with people.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Anchors, yeah well, man, I I think we're just gonna.
I'm gonna reach out to alanshore, I'm gonna get you, we'll
get a couple other guys in here.
We're just going to.
I'm going to reach out to AlanShore, I'm going to get you,
we'll get a couple other guys inhere.
We're going to have a big groupup.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah, yeah, I think it'd be fun to get Eric in here.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, eric Foss and I with Elements, and yeah, we, we
we talk attachment, all thetime, yeah, and we talk, we see
it through our, throughourselves and our relationships,
our clients, and so anotherthing, too, I'm real excited
about is that I stumbled upon apodcast with Alan Shore and
(32:25):
Uberman.
You know the Uberman Lab.
Yeah, love that guy.
He's a neurologist and so heinterviews Alan Shore and they
get into a lot of conversation,which is really awesome, and
uberman and him talk about whatis good therapy and like what
does the good therapy look like?
(32:45):
And I I haven't heard anybodyexplain or discuss it in such a
clear way that I've been liketexting this podcast, a lot of
different people and and andlike our, our clinicians here
are listening to it we'retalking about it Share it with
me when you get a chance.
That'd be great.
Yeah, I totally will.
Yeah, I will, I will.
So it's like as soon as wedisconnect from here, I'll share
(33:05):
with you.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah Well, jack.
Dr Jack Hinman, thank you somuch for joining us today.
This has been Mental HealthMatters on WPBM 1037, the voice
of Ashland Todd Weatherly, yourhost, and look forward to seeing
you next time.
Take care.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Thanks, Todd.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Appreciate it.
I need to find my way, my way,my way, my way.
Thank you.
Now you should only relax inhere.
In here, I'm a little powerbearer.
Oh oh, power bearer.
Now you should only relax inhere.
In here, I'm a little powerbearer.
(34:22):
Oh, power bearer.
Now you should only relax inhere.
In here, I'm a little powerbearer.
Oh oh, power bearer, Powerbearer, power bearer in these
power bearers, Power bearer,power bearer in these power
(34:51):
bearers.
Outro Music Bye.
I need a little help.
I found the only little help.
I need a little help.
I found the only little help.
(35:37):
I need a little help.
I found the only little help.
I need a little help.
I found the only little help.
I need a little help.
I found the only little help.
I found the only little help.
I need a little help.
I found the only little help.
I'm the elite out there.
I found the elite out there.
I'm used to the legal arts inhere.
(35:57):
In here, I'm a legalpower-bearer.
I'm a legal power-bearer.
I'm used to the legal arts inhere.
In here, I'm a legalpower-bearer.
I'm a legal power-bearer.
I'm a legal power-bearer.
I'm a legal power-bearer, I'm alegal.
The reason why I'm still here.
I'm not a little power-web.
Oh, I'm used to the reason whyI'm still here.
(36:18):
I'm not a little power-web, oh,Power-web, power-web, power-web
, Bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
(36:58):
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
(37:20):
Find my way home.
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