May 5, 2025 • 42 mins
What happens when we shift our focus from "fixing" young adults to understanding the family systems that shape them? Dr. Vaughn Heath and Steve Roth of the Arise Society join host Todd Weatherly in this groundbreaking conversation exploring how anxiety moves through family systems like electricity through a circuit, with parents often functioning as "capacitors" and struggling young adults becoming the "grounding wire" for family tension.
The experts dive deep into Bowenian family systems theory, explaining four emotional regulatory mechanisms that families use to manage anxiety: distance, engagement, triangulation, and reciprocal positioning. When these mechanisms become rigid rather than flexible, young adults develop symptoms like depression, anxiety, and motivational issues.
This episode challenges conventional treatment models by showing that accountability-based approaches often carry implicit judgment and shame. Instead, pattern recognition empowers young adults to understand the gap between their intentions (wanting connection) and effects (pushing people away). The goal isn't perfect independence—which no one truly achieves—but building healthy support systems and family relationships. This conversation offers profound insights for parents, mental health professionals, and anyone interested in how family dynamics shape our lives and relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello folks, thanks for joining us on Head Inside
Mental Health, featuringconversations about mental
health and substance usetreatment, with experts from
across the country sharing theirthoughts and insights on the
world of behavioral health care.
Broadcasting on WPBM 1037, thevoice of national independent,
commercial-free radio.
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host,therapeutic consultant and
(00:20):
behavioral health expert.
Joining me today are Dr VaughnHeath and Steve Roth with the
Arise Society, a program in Orem, utah, that provides support
for young adults between theages of 18 and 26 struggling
with anxiety, depression, gamingand other motivational issues,
helping them work throughemotional setbacks to achieve
independence and college orvocational success, empowered
(00:43):
with the confidence and skillsto lead happy, healthy and
fulfilling lives.
Dr Vaughn Heath is the founderand CEO of the Arise Society.
Vaughn is his PhD in marriageand family therapy from Brigham
Young University.
He began specializing in issuesof trauma by working with women
who were the survivors oftrauma and then worked with the
perpetrators of trauma.
In 1998, he co-founded theSecond Nature Wilderness Program
(01:06):
, one of the most prominentwilderness programs in the field
.
Shifting his focus fromtreatment to the transition from
residential care, vaughnfounded the Arise Society as a
vehicle through which the focusof treatment might shift from
mental health issues toreal-world issues like academic
and vocational success.
Steve Roth, on the other hand,has to work with Vaughn.
He's the executive director.
(01:28):
His experience includestherapeutic rock climbing,
teaching in South Korea andobtaining a master's in social
work from the University of TelAviv.
Steve's decade of experience invarious therapeutic settings,
such as residential,transitional and wilderness
therapy programs, has equippedhim with the expertise to
address a wide range of mentalhealth issues.
He has worked with individualsstruggling with depression,
(01:50):
anxiety, trauma, addiction,personality disorders and autism
, among others.
Steve is also a certifiedpersonal trainer and a certified
nutritional coach, believing inadding movement and proper
nutrition alongsideevidence-based therapeutic
approaches.
Working with his clients At theArise Society is leadership and
(02:10):
diverse expertise intransitional settings, enhanced
program development, mentorship,helping young adults overcome
barriers and achieve success.
That's the whole point.
Young adults achieving success.
It's kind of a big deal thesedays.
We see so many that arefloundering and everything else.
Guys, first of all, welcome tothe show.
Thanks for joining me Thank you,we, we, you know we pitched at
it for a while, like back in sandiego.
(02:32):
San diego, we were talkingabout getting together and doing
.
This is like hey, you soundlike a guy that I could do a
podcast.
I think we should jump on theradio and do it.
He's like yeah let's do it andyou know, like us brothers, six
months later we were able tomake it happen and you know the
the.
I think the big thing, one ofthe things that we were talking
(02:54):
about back then, we talk about alot today is that you know
you're you're not, you're never,regardless of your location,
dislocated from your familysystem.
Your family system is somethingthat follows you wherever you
go.
Parents remain, for youngadults and even beyond young
adulthood, they remain thispivotal feature to your success
(03:18):
and the way that you navigate anindependent life.
And you guys are experts inBowen family systems theory.
You guys apply that in veryinstrumental ways and working
with the families that come toyou.
And a lot of the students thatcome to you have completed some
form of residential care and nowthey're working on transition.
One of the things we've alwayssaid about wilderness work is
(03:38):
that we're really good aboutmaking kids and young adults
successful in wilderness.
But then after that and I thinkthat that's part of what drove
Vaughn to start the Arai Societyand provide programming that
allows these folks coming out ofresidential care to kind of
re-find identity, identifyfamily systems issues, help the
(03:59):
family figure out how they'reworking with one another and
then start to achieve some ofthose success markers that
they've been trying for so long.
You know where.
Where are we?
This world has changed a lotwhen, like, has your work
changed?
Like is this?
Like?
Tell me about how it's landedon the ground for you right now,
maybe in comparison to how itwas before, where the family
(04:19):
systems piece really comes intothe model for you guys.
Like, how's it rolling rightnow?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Well, todd, you know, I think that back in the day I
guess I'm old enough to say thatnow I thought about it sort of
medically and diagnostically interms of what the problems were
and where the focus reallyneeded to be in terms of
intervention and change.
I think that what's happened hasbeen that we've realized that
(04:46):
that's probably more looking atsymptoms in terms of functioning
and in terms of the kind ofstress and the kind of
productive lives that our youngadults want to lead.
However, in terms of supportand being realistic about how we
as human beings needrelationships and we need the
(05:07):
right kind of relational supportin our lives, I think that
what's happening is we'relooking a little deeper as
professionals and understandingthat this idea of imprinting and
definitely imprinting withconnection in our family systems
really sets us up for how weconnect in our lives with our
(05:28):
peers and out in the real world.
And so trying to understand howthe family system affects and
sets us up and the implicationsof our relationships and our
families, not only for romanticrelationships and intimacy, but
even for connection andfriendships not only for
romantic relationships andintimacy, but even for
connection and friendships isreally what we're trying to use
(05:48):
a relationship model at theprogram.
That's how we're really tryingto use it.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Well, yeah, I mean, I think over the last decade it's
certainly shifted from, youknow, let's cure these kind of
ailments or these symptoms,let's cure depression, let's
cure anxiety to more of anunderstanding that we're not
really here to cure thesediagnoses.
(06:12):
We want to reduce the symptoms,of course, but how do we help
our young adults, how do we helpthe students, as we call them,
learn how to build socialsupports around themselves so
that when life gets hard, whenthese symptoms maybe flare up
because they're never trulycured, how do they understand
(06:33):
how to pull people in to want tohelp support them, rather than
kind of pushing people?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
away.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Exactly and so like, if you, you know, todd, if you
think about it, as all of us onscreen and any adult out in your
life, one thing that we've allhad to learn how to do is to
build support systems around usfor when times get hard, forming
those close connections andthose relationships to pull
(07:04):
others into want to support themand then also reciprocating
that support is really difficultfor them to achieve that.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Well, and, steve, I think that you know, especially
young adults and other peoplewho are struggling with
neurodiverse issues reallysometimes struggle to understand
how they're affecting otherpeople and really perceive
whether they're pushing peopleaway or pulling them a little
closer.
And so we really think aboutthe family as a way of setting
individuals up.
(07:34):
Sometimes they come out highlyfunctional and really have a
great ability to pull peoplecloser and develop that support.
But many of the young adultsthat we work with really are not
aware of the effect thatthey're having on other people,
and so when there's socialdistance and when somebody is
pulling away because they'vebeen affected in a negative way,
(07:54):
our young adults have a hardtime understanding that effect.
And I think this is also aproblem, sort of a side effect
with technology, which isunderstanding in-person
relationships and how you'reaffecting somebody else is not
something that really can beexplored in a regular social
setting and maybe even in afamily.
And so therapeutically, we'rereally trying to pause the
(08:17):
interaction and say, okay, sowhat happened here in terms of
did you bring somebody closer ordid you push them away?
Not so much the right or thewrong of their view or the
morality of it, but more about?
Are you developing socialsupport around yourself?
What we see is based on youngadults coming out of their own
families of origin, oftentimesin the family.
(08:38):
That bid for closeness, if wecan use that language, has
worked.
The young adult has been indistress.
The mother or father has becomeinvolved, sometimes overly so,
but it has been a bid forconnection.
While you try and take thatshow out into the world.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I don't think it translates, especially not to
peers.
You know, if it's not yourfamily, there's no obligation to
kind of stay in there and keepthat closeness there versus our
friends.
You know, enough pushes, theystart to distance and we're left
alone again, which I think youknow.
We've all been through COVIDand I think one of the things
(09:15):
that COVID exacerbated more thananything else is this pervasive
loneliness that we see in ourstudents that come into Arise
and this lack of a skill set tobe able to pull those peers in,
and I think it even ingrainedour students more within their
emotional system, within theirfamilies, in terms of how you
(09:36):
bid for closeness.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, there's also, you know there was a lot of kind
of detachment as a model forengagement.
You know you're all sitting infront of screens.
Nobody really knows what'sgoing on with one another.
Kids are complaining aboutteachers and each other.
They don't get to see eachother in person.
You guys have seen the.
You probably have the blank faceexperiment, which is, I find,
almost unbearable to watch, andI think that we're that's what
(10:00):
we get from our screens.
We get blank face kind of stuff, and so these kids are coming
out and I completely, from amental health standpoint, being
able to symptom manage.
You know, if you have a, if youhave a traumatic event let's
say you had a car accident andevery time you get in the car
you suffer from a little bit ofanxiety because that car
(10:23):
accident kind of follows youwherever you go, whenever you're
in a vehicle.
Now you can do all kinds ofthings around symptom management
, but if you didn't know that itwas the vehicle that was the
associative element in yourreaction, it would be hard for
you to be like I don't even knowwhere this is coming from.
You know you would be lost.
And so for these you know a lotof kids.
(10:43):
A lot of young adults are comingout and they, they exist
somewhere on this neurodiversespectrum a lot more these days
because of all thisenvironmental stuff, and I think
that that's what they'resuffering from.
There's this society stuff, andI think that that's what they're
suffering from.
There's this society, there'sthis social anxiety, but they
can't identify where it stemsfrom.
And what you guys are doing isis not only you know, from a DBT
(11:03):
standpoint, right Teaching themhow to do some symptom
management, how to feel lessanxious or how to manage
depression if it shows up, or dosome of the very good practices
that are part of mental healthtreatment, but you're also
working with these folks justlike let me recognize my
environment, this is not how itwas at home.
There is a world out there.
(11:24):
I have to figure out how tointerface with it, and there's a
lot of theory that's going onaround about the neurodiverse
environment, about how peopleengage with the real world,
where they find environment,where do you guys get the most
traction in getting them anopportunity to find their way
there?
Like, where's the work reallyseen?
You know what I'm asking, like,where's this really taken off
(11:46):
for these?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
So I think what we've really tried to do is shift
away from this, if I can say,old school mentality of
accountability and really tryingto transition into something
that's a lot more relevant foryoung adults, that they can
really get a grasp onintellectually and emotionally.
And so we're talking aboutpattern and we're talking about
(12:10):
that pattern that happens whentheir intention is to create
closeness but the effect isactually distance.
And so a lot of the groupprocess and a lot of the
relational therapy kind ofprocess is that exploration of
the discrepancy or dissonancebetween intention and effect and
then understanding that overdifferent people, circumstance
(12:33):
and time, they're carrying thatsame pattern of what we use,
kind of a sexy word, parataxicdistortion, which is something
that adults can start.
Young adults can start saying,okay, so this is my parataxic
distortion, I'm bidding forconnection, but I'm actually
pushing people away and I'mdoing it at different times in
(12:53):
my life with different peopleand over different circumstances
.
That's something that I thinkis a tool that they can really
take out into the world and it'snot just contained within a
therapeutic environment.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Well, I mean, I really do, and I have a really
fun example.
I'll be a little vulnerablewith you guys.
I was a managing director.
I was working for Cooper Eastat the time and we were opening
a new program.
I had to be part of the boardmeetings and everything else.
And you know the board andfounders were pretty you know
(13:27):
big personalities and that kindof thing.
I love them to death.
But there was some issue thatwe were in disagreement about
and I said no, it's got to bethis way.
And they're like.
I said no, it's got to be thisway.
And they're like well, no, it'sgot to be this way.
And we sat there in the meetingand then you know, virgil pulls
me around, he's the executivedirector, he's my boss and he's
like so I'm not trying to arguewhether or not you're right or
(13:49):
wrong.
You know you've got experiencethat's valid, et cetera.
What I want to ask you is didyou achieve what you set out to
achieve in making the statementthat you made?
And it just it hit me.
It just it hit me in the face.
I was just like duh, because Ifailed miserably.
I may have said something thatwas true, but failed miserably
(14:10):
in achieving what I wanted toachieve Exactly.
There's my parataxic distortion.
Yeah, right there too.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
You know, of course, active and communicate with
Steve, and sometimes Steve isgreat.
He'll step out of the processand say do you realize the
effect that you're having rightnow?
And I hate it when he does it.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, you know, ceo changes the temperature of the
room.
You got to practically sit on.
You got to allow your back inthe floor just so you don't say
something, right?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
You know, todd, I think that in terms of because I
loved your question about thetraction and where do our
students get that traction thereis a shift when we start
talking about their pattern andthen they start referencing
their pattern versus thataccountability.
But at the same time, thetraction really takes hold
within their socialrelationships at Arise versus
(15:03):
it's you know, vaughn or myself,your therapist or program
directors, kind of saying youknow, talking about your pattern
, versus their friends, startingto get this level of closeness
where they understand eachother's patterns and they start
talking to each other about thatprocess, you know, and they
they're able to open up and say,you know, when I'm doing this,
(15:25):
you know, I guess it's like howdo you see me, how do I come
across to you guys, and it'sthey're not asking a quote,
unquote, authority figure,they're asking someone that has
an authentic friendship with andthat's really that traction, it
really locks in for them ofthis is relatable and valuable
for me versus.
I can explain six ways ofSunday why this therapist is
(15:50):
wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
What you're telling me is you have an experience,
you're having them reflect,they're getting some
generalization and getting theopportunity to apply.
Sounds like a cycle.
What is that cycle?
I forget what it is, but youguys are using the real world,
as opposed to the experientialcycle that we use in these kind
(16:13):
of microcosm but essentiallyfabricated environments and or
experiences not that they losetheir value, they're getting a
lot of that in wilderness.
You guys are taking this model,kind of, I'd say, to the next
level where what they get to dois interface with a real social
environment.
They get to be in, they getsupport being in awareness or
(16:35):
recognizing their own patternsand after recognizing it, they
can be like oh wait, you knowwhat?
Let me process, let'sexperiment with this a little
bit.
Let me see if I can get somesuccesses, shifting from the
pattern I know is not working toa pattern that I think can work
, and build that and work withit with my peers Continue to
(16:57):
have this support, but they itsounds like, like they just pick
it up and they take it andthey're able to use it in a way
that causes it to be successfulout in the real world, and the
more of those successes theyhave, obviously, the more
confident they feel.
How do families?
Going back to family systems,what do you see?
What do you like?
How do you see familiesresponding to this?
Because we know, you know, themy new favorite term is the
(17:19):
Zamboni parent.
Have you heard this expression?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
The Zamboni is the ice, the thing that like packs
down the ice on an ice rink.
You're like the Zamboni parent.
That's how close they are, ontop of their kids.
How does it work with?
You may be supportive,potentially overly involved
parents and the family system.
Where do you see that?
Where's the traction there?
Like, where do parents start tomake the shift and what does it
look like when you see thesethings start to happen?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I can start Sure.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I mean, we both do this all day, every day.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
So I think that this is where the theory really comes
to play, because we work withintelligent people who are not
just listening to a therapist'srecommendations but can
challenge us and really want tounderstand a methodology.
So if you'll bear with me for aminute, we'll talk a little bit
(18:18):
about Winnian systems, becauseit's really what I needed to
sort of bring the parents alongand bring the emotional system
along in the family.
Bowen really thought ofproblems and symptoms being
associated with anxiety and hetook an ecological model, which
is we're not very different thanprimates in terms of yeah,
we've got a prefrontal cortex.
That's very different thanprimates in terms of, yeah,
we've got a prefrontal cortexthat's explaining things, but in
general, we're reacting toanxiety as a physical experience
(18:43):
the same way animals are, andso he talked a lot about how-.
Hearing it in the limbic system.
You know yeah, yeah, yep.
So he talked and came up withideas around how these two
forces in our interpersonalworld act together and sometimes
against each other, and henamed them individuality and
(19:05):
togetherness.
And those two forces work verywell together when the system is
not stressed and it's calm,system is not stressed and it's
calm.
And as we interview parents andas we work with understanding
their interaction with eachother, we start to get a sense
about how parents are managingthe emotional proximity between
(19:25):
each other and how anxiety is alittle bit like an electrical
impulse moving through a circuit.
So if you think about, I likethat analogy the parent
relationship system being acapacitor, it carries emotional
load from the stress and that'swhat it's really meant to do.
And so we really validateparents in terms of they've
(19:46):
gotten together, they blendedtheir families, they paid
student loans, they've gonethrough school, they bought
homes, they've had kids, they'vegone through a lot of these
lifetime milestones of stress,and that parent system, that
relationship system within theparents, has really carried a
lot of emotional load.
So we don't blame them whenthey keep doing the same thing
(20:07):
over and over again because it'sbeen so effective in their
history in terms of who drivesand who sits in the passenger
seat, or however they managethat stress.
Bowen had the idea and came upwith the idea of four emotional
regulatory mechanisms, one beingdistance, which calms the
(20:28):
system down, and then anotherbeing engagement, which is
oftentimes associated withconflict.
That really gets the systemgoing and is necessary to get
things done.
He also had the idea thattriangles are really the
blueprint or the patterning forwhich the emotional circuitry
moves through, and that was thebalancing or the most stable
(20:49):
relationship molecule is what hecalled it.
And then fourth, he really hadthe idea that there was this
reciprocal positioning wheresomebody drives and somebody
sits shotgun in the parentalrelationship and through those
four systems they really managethe closest and distance between
each other or the emotionalproximity.
As long as all of thosemechanisms are flexible and
(21:11):
they're at play, it handlesstress amazingly well with
primates and they're at play.
It handles stress amazinglywell with primates.
But the moment that one ofthose becomes the primary way
that the parents are managingstress you take care of the kids
, I'm going to go out and work,I'll sit on the emotional
periphery you becomeover-involved with the children.
This is what we would callreciprocal positioning.
It becomes problematic when thekids grow up and there's new
(21:34):
emotional stressors that areimpinging upon the family.
And just as a tail end of that,I think Steve and I can say
after a decade of doing this inthis program we have not met one
family we've worked with thatdoesn't have a two to four year
clustering of stress.
That's happened to them.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
That's put the parent system underwater, floods the
system with that electricity,with that anxiety, put the the
parent system underwater, floods, floods the system with.
You know that electricity, withthat anxiety, and then the
system becomes rigid, to, to uh,to work through that process
together.
But then, even once that anxietyhas been dispersed, the system
(22:12):
stays rigid and so anxiety or,if we want to, you know,
continue to use the electricalmetaphor there's almost like a
grounding wire for that anxietyto get fed through, to dissipate
, which oftentimes is one of thechildren and so you know I
would call this identifiedpatient right, but reality is
(22:34):
it's one of those mechanisms.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
It's a triangle where the parents are now probably in
some degree of emotionalseparation between each other
because there's just so much todo and so much to handle, and
they connect over their children, and so this is the way that
the triangle works, which is theparents are close but not
really in a relationship witheach other anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
It's about the kids and getting them to soccer
practice.
You have kids, right.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Right, yeah, and so you gave that example or the
metaphor of the car and thetrauma, and it's like how do we
kind of zoom out to understandwhat the car is doing or how
that's sparking that trigger,the triggering response, and for
us that zoom out to help usunderstand the student, the
(23:21):
child that's with us is withinthis dynamic, within this family
system that tends to createthese symptoms.
Right, and there's differentkinds.
There's physical symptoms thatsometimes we see, whether that's
migraines or stomach aches orasthma, whatever that there's
social.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Neck addiction and all those other pieces like.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yep Social, physical and emotional issues that come
out of these systems, and wedon't only see them with the
students that we have with themobviously with the parents as
well.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
That's staying up late gaming too, right,
obviously with the parents aswell.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That's staying up late, gaming too, right, right,
you know it's so interestingbecause a lot of the students
that we have who have siblingswhen Vaughn's talking about the
reciprocal positioning that wesee in terms of mitigating this
anxiety a lot of their siblingsare really high achievers
Harvard, yale, you know doingamazing in their jobs.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
And then we have the student, the child that actually
insulated in a way theirsiblings from where that anxiety
pooled around Because all theparents over anxious and worry
and focuses on that child and Ithink if we're not careful we as
a program can replicate andperpetuate the same kind of
worry and concern that theparents have.
So you know, sitting in themiddle of that triangle as a
program, creating some distanceto calm the system down, I think
(24:49):
, is what programs have beendoing and what they're effective
with, but reconfiguring thefamily system so that when
closeness starts to developagain between the young adult
and their family it's adifferent pattern of connection.
That's where I think the realimportant work is in front of us
.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Well, I like the idea of the shift away from
accountability, which kind ofcomes laden with judgment and
everything else.
There's this self-esteem piecethat's wrapped up in it, even if
you don't mean it to be right.
And then all of a sudden it'slike no, here's what I want you
to do.
I want you to recognize thepattern.
I want you to.
Let's, let's work on this.
(25:27):
And then the family recognizesthe pattern and all of a sudden
they start to see this car.
It's like oh, it's a car, youknow this thing that's
triggering everybody.
Then they have the opportunityto do something about it.
I mean, that's in many ways, Ithink, that some of the
direction that we go not tothrow the baby out with the
bathwater.
It's not that we don't want aperson to be accountable Of
(25:49):
course you do but it's really alot more about going toward
something what you want in yourlife being able to be functional
and everything else than awayfrom something which is this
shame from having not beenaccountable in the past and
things that you needed to havedone better, like it's a.
It's just a far better outlookwhen you're doing treatment
honestly and for a person toland on the ground Outcomes wise
(26:13):
like what are you seeingoutcomes?
Wise, like, what are you seeing, like, by the time, a person
I'm sure that you guys arecommunicating with, folks that
are that are, you know,graduating and they're going out
into their own lives what areyou hearing back?
A little bit Like, what do you,what's the what's the success
story look like for you guys?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, Well, todd, I think that a couple of things in
response to that question, oneof which is Vaughn and I sat
down and really tried to figureout.
What does success look like Ina transitional program?
What does 100% independencemean?
Is that even our goal?
(26:48):
Has anyone in our livesachieved whatever 100%?
Speaker 1 (26:51):
independence.
I'm still not independent.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Right, exactly, lives achieved, whatever 100%, I'm
still not independent.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
Right, exactly, it's we.
We utilize our support systemsand we we have our relationships
to help us get through life.
So, in terms of our studentsand their independence, the
thing that we're really tryingto work towards at Arise is our
parents, the parents that wework with, still utilizing Arise
to maintain the closeness withtheir child.
(27:15):
Are the parents using theprogram so that they can still
feel close to their kids we want?
Well, let me explain that for amoment.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
So you know, in our and we all know this regularly
therapists will get on the callwith the parents once a week and
they'll talk about how theiryoung adult or their adolescent
is doing.
But in the subtext, I think forthat is that the parents
develop a degree of emotionalcloseness and safety and
understanding from the therapistin terms of a little bit of
(27:44):
what they're going through.
But that relationship hasreally that pattern or that
connection has really beendeveloped through the young
adult, not between the therapistand the parent directly,
developed through the youngadult, not between the therapist
and the parent directly.
So one of the things that we'rechanging is that we're
establishing a relationship withthe parents.
Sorry, we're establishing arelationship with the parents
(28:05):
directly where we talk abouttheir history, their upbringing
and how they connected in theirown families, and so instead of
thinking about it like maritaltherapy, we really think about
it a lot more vertically interms of taking the parents back
to their own growing up years,their relationship with their
siblings and mostly Todd, howthey are adjusting to how their
(28:28):
parents were managing anxietybetween themselves.
They take that into theirmarriage and there's a blending.
So then you get thisperpetuation intergenerationally
anxiety between themselves.
They take that into theirmarriage and there's a blending.
So then you get thisperpetuation intergenerationally
.
But I think parents feel a lotcloser with us and trust us a
lot more when they feel like therelationship is direct and we
get a lot better sense about howthey're interacting and
(28:49):
connecting and supporting theirchildren in general and that
sort of emotional system that'sgoing on in the family but you
know, I just had just had jackhim and you know dr jack on the
show and we were talking about.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
We were talking about intimacy, relationships and
attachment styles.
You know that's uh, you know itsounds, even though that that's
not necessarily the thrust ofwhat you're talking about.
It's certainly, it's certainlylurking in the background the
Bowen system stuff.
You know where, the way thatthis person came about in the
world and formed relationshipsand their attachment style and
(29:25):
everything else, it's allplaying out on the other side
and you know the let's call itthe named patient right is has
got some configuration of thesethings.
They don't understand them all.
It's hard for them to witnessthe pattern Uh, the parents are
having, are struggling withchanging it up because they
they're not witness to their ownstuff.
And it sounds like what youguys are doing.
(29:46):
It's just like, look, it's likeSherpa-ing the whole thing.
It's like I want to show youwhere we're going.
I want to show you where we'regoing.
I want to show you what kind ofmap you're working with so that
you can navigate this yourself.
But through that I would stillturn.
You know, a person who can giveyou good direction is somebody
you cultivate a lot of trustwith, and we all know that
(30:07):
Therapeutic Alliance is one ofthe strongest features to a
successful program and it soundslike the thrust of some of this
, the thrust of some of thesuccess that you're seeing, is
in the therapeutic alliance thatyou're giving by not only
identifying the pattern and anability to adjust the pattern,
but also this piece aboutthere's no judgment here.
(30:31):
You know, we're looking at thesource of these things, we're
looking at the things thatoccurred.
We're going to take thejudgment out of it just so that
we can observe it as information.
It's information, let's use itto our, to our benefit, and I
think that it's been a real.
It's been a real road, you know, since you know the, the
forties and fifties for therapyas a whole and treatment for
(30:53):
sure, to land in this placewhere that's a central, that
becomes now a central feature towhat's going on.
Judgment you know, back in theday of the analyst right, a
person who could tell youeverything about it and judges
your stuff and make sure thatyou know what's wrong and sends
you out the door.
Yeah Right, the doctor, you knowit's a, it's a far, I mean.
(31:17):
I mean we've just we've come along way.
I'm I love to see this landingon the ground, the.
The last thing that I'll askyou guys, before we have to
agree to have another show aboutall this, is, um, when you see
parents coming to you after thefact, are you see, are they
reporting anything about therelationship they have with one
(31:39):
another, either improving orhaving some changes that they
were able to recognize?
What's going on between parents, not just between them and
their children, but between theintimate partners themselves?
Do you see anything that'shappening there?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah, I want to say a couple things on that, Todd.
So Carl Whitaker, master oftherapy, said it was all in the
setup, and I think that parentscome in with the expectation
that they're sort of going todrop their young adult off and
then we're going to do thefixing, this old way of thinking
.
You know, it really doesn'tchange in terms of we've created
(32:13):
some distance, the parents calmdown, we work with the kid,
they learn about themselves inthe program and how to develop
those relationships.
But then, after therapeutictreatment is over and the child
moves closer back into thefamily system, the pressure to
rejoin the system that has notchanged is so intense that
oftentimes we see regression.
(32:33):
That has not changed is sointense that oftentimes we see
regression.
Now, oftentimes, when parentsare able to really get involved
with us and change that dynamicin what we call the triangle,
then at some point we do seeactual change happening for the
young adult, where they'redeveloping a different kind of
connection with their parents.
(32:54):
But if we're not careful, whatwill happen is that somebody
else will move into what we callthe outside position of the
triangle and oftentimes that'smother, because the predominant
majority of our families are dadon the emotional periphery,
mother over-involved with thechildren, right?
So then, as we try and changethat, the mother moves out of
(33:15):
that overinvolvement.
But then where does all of thatanxiety that she's been
dispersing onto her childthrough the connection go?
And that really is difficultfor the parent that's been
overinvolved.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
She ends up overcompensating, or sometimes
it's a he, but more often theshe.
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
So then the person usually dad on the emotional
periphery really doesn't want toget that much closer.
He's a really good agent tosupport mom.
He'll give rides, he'll doeverything else, but he doesn't
want to be emotionally in thatentanglement with the child and
so he stays on the outside.
Then mother's going to dosomething else in terms of a
friend or a different child, oreven a parent or a sibling, but
(33:56):
that anxiety has to go somewhereelse until we really teach
parents about differentiation,which was a term that Bowen
coined, which is really reallyimportant in terms of how we
deal with stress and we don'ttransmit it on through the
emotional system.
So there's a lot of complexityhere, but the overall message is
(34:17):
nobody's a bad guy, everybody'sjust learned from their own
families how to manage thatanxiety.
And then the beat just goes onand on and on, and we have a lot
of passion about thisintergenerational pattern that
goes on from each generation inthe family pattern that goes on
from each generation in thefamily.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So I mean Todd, we'll meet with and we used to meet
with parents together on screenand do the genogram.
We realized that oftentimes thedad was answering questions but
then looking over at his wifeto make sure he was answering
them correctly.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
So we we call this the puppet dictator syndrome.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
So we started interviewing them separately to
do their own family of originand I think it's the first time
in what has typically been areally long line of treatment
that both the child and thefamily has been through, where
the parents start to feel onelike individuals, not like a
unit, this amalgamous unit,right.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And differentiated unit right.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Exactly, and they also start to get their own day
in the spotlight, if you will,where they're getting their own
therapeutic experience, notthrough the lens of their child,
but through their own, you know, working with me and Vaughn,
and they're also.
We're not talking to parents,we're talking to children of
parents, because we're workinginto their family of origin.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
So it really starts Do you see, when you do that, do
you see like, does dad hate itand mom loves it?
Is that?
Do you see that sometimes it'smore?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
about a different perspective.
So we talked about this clusterof stressful events that hits
the family system.
When we interview themindependently, it is amazing
either their different take onit or even different stressors
that each one of them leaves outand other stressors that they
add in because they see it as anindividual rather than as a
(36:08):
unit, and it's reallyinteresting.
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Todd, Interesting.
Go ahead, Todd.
I was going to say to yourpoint, Steve, in some ways it's
got to feel really relieving forthem to come in and be like
this is about me and who I wasas a child coming into this and
not about this relationship.
And I thought it was going tobe about our marriage.
But instead I've got to likepersonalize it, Like that's got
to feel really unique.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Well, I don't think it's so daunting for them.
I mean marital therapy and us,coming in from their perspective
, kind of monkeying around withthe relationship system that
they've used so well over somany life events.
At some point it's, I think, alot more relieving yeah,
Relieving for them to work backinto their own family system.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Well, you know, and I think and I'm not sure if I'm
going to make any friends withthis statement but within the
last decade we've the field inand of itself has really shifted
away from the identifiedpatient, but I don't really see
that there's been a methodologyaround doing that.
(37:13):
I see a lot of Like how tochange it Right.
I see a lot of Like how tochange it Right.
I see a lot of familyinvolvement, but the involvement
still focuses around the kidthat's in the program, versus
having this Bowenian frameworkto operate with the parents
within their own families oforigin.
So the calls that Vaughn and Iare on, we don't even talk about
(37:33):
their children that are with us.
We're solely focused on whateach of these parents' lives
have been through and thepatterns that they have taken
from their own families oforigin into their nuclear family
.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
We got it.
Let's talk about you.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Right exactly.
And you know you asked about ifsometimes the dads are a little
bit resistant, or moms Rightnow.
What we found out is they arethrilled to get their time with
us.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
You know, we even had a dad recently who the effect
of the conversation, you know, Iwasn't even asking a lot of
questions, he was just kind ofspilling everything out.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
You knocked the dam and he yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
well, the effect of it was oh man, I don't really
think he's gotten a lot ofopportunity while his kid's been
in treatment to really talkabout what's gone on for him and
what really is like, moved himaround from his own growing up
as a kid and how that istransferred over into his life
as a father, and so it was areally kind of powerful process
(38:41):
to see play out of him justopening up in that way without a
lot of prompting.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
But, I think the application of it is that we
then see how the young adult canbecome aligned with the parent.
That might be on the emotionalperiphery, but again, if we're
not careful, that moves theother parent to the outside
position and that's no goodeither.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
You've got to be constantly aware of the balance
it's very technical the balanceof the system.
Right yeah, very technical.
That makes a lot of sense when.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Vaughn's talking about this togetherness and
individuality force.
This togetherness andindividuality force we are you
know me and you Todd, me andVaughn.
We are always moving back andforth along that continuum, kind
of mitigating our own anxiety.
As you know, if I feel that meand Vaughn are too much
(39:30):
togetherness force and myanxiety goes up, then I'm going
to back off a little bit andwe're just doing this
unconsciously constantly.
But within families, that kindof get this influx of anxiety,
they get that rigid kind of I'monly only the togetherness force
will work or only theindividuality.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Right, well, I hope that this interview hasn't
thrown your balance off,gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I really know it would take more than this
interview, I think.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Well, I am sure glad that you guys were able to make
it and be here together on theshow.
I am absolutely thrilled aboutthe work that you're both doing.
I've had Dr Vaughn Heath andSteve Roth here on the show with
the Arise Society.
This has been Head InsideMental Health with Todd
Weatherly on WPBM 1037, theVoice of Asheville.
(40:22):
We'll be with you folks nexttime.
Steve Vaughn, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I found you in this web.
Thank you, bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
(41:57):
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I feel so lonely and lost in here.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I need to find my way home.
Find my way home.
Hello folks, thanks for joining us on Head Inside
Mental Health, featuringconversations about mental
health and substance usetreatment, with experts from
across the country sharing theirthoughts and insights on the
world of behavioral health care.
Broadcasting on WPBM 1037, thevoice of national independent,
commercial-free radio.
I'm Todd Weatherly, your host,therapeutic consultant and
(00:20):
behavioral health expert.
Joining me today are Dr VaughnHeath and Steve Roth with the
Arise Society, a program in Orem, utah, that provides support
for young adults between theages of 18 and 26 struggling
with anxiety, depression, gamingand other motivational issues,
helping them work throughemotional setbacks to achieve
independence and college orvocational success, empowered
(00:43):
with the confidence and skillsto lead happy, healthy and
fulfilling lives.
Dr Vaughn Heath is the founderand CEO of the Arise Society.
Vaughn is his PhD in marriageand family therapy from Brigham
Young University.
He began specializing in issuesof trauma by working with women
who were the survivors oftrauma and then worked with the
perpetrators of trauma.
In 1998, he co-founded theSecond Nature Wilderness Program
(01:06):
, one of the most prominentwilderness programs in the field
.
Shifting his focus fromtreatment to the transition from
residential care, vaughnfounded the Arise Society as a
vehicle through which the focusof treatment might shift from
mental health issues toreal-world issues like academic
and vocational success.
Steve Roth, on the other hand,has to work with Vaughn.
He's the executive director.
(01:28):
His experience includestherapeutic rock climbing,
teaching in South Korea andobtaining a master's in social
work from the University of TelAviv.
Steve's decade of experience invarious therapeutic settings,
such as residential,transitional and wilderness
therapy programs, has equippedhim with the expertise to
address a wide range of mentalhealth issues.
He has worked with individualsstruggling with depression,
(01:50):
anxiety, trauma, addiction,personality disorders and autism
, among others.
Steve is also a certifiedpersonal trainer and a certified
nutritional coach, believing inadding movement and proper
nutrition alongsideevidence-based therapeutic
approaches.
Working with his clients At theArise Society is leadership and
(02:10):
diverse expertise intransitional settings, enhanced
program development, mentorship,helping young adults overcome
barriers and achieve success.
That's the whole point.
Young adults achieving success.
It's kind of a big deal thesedays.
We see so many that arefloundering and everything else.
Guys, first of all, welcome tothe show.
Thanks for joining me Thank you,we, we, you know we pitched at
it for a while, like back in sandiego.
(02:32):
San diego, we were talkingabout getting together and doing
.
This is like hey, you soundlike a guy that I could do a
podcast.
I think we should jump on theradio and do it.
He's like yeah let's do it andyou know, like us brothers, six
months later we were able tomake it happen and you know the
the.
I think the big thing, one ofthe things that we were talking
(02:54):
about back then, we talk about alot today is that you know
you're you're not, you're never,regardless of your location,
dislocated from your familysystem.
Your family system is somethingthat follows you wherever you
go.
Parents remain, for youngadults and even beyond young
adulthood, they remain thispivotal feature to your success
(03:18):
and the way that you navigate anindependent life.
And you guys are experts inBowen family systems theory.
You guys apply that in veryinstrumental ways and working
with the families that come toyou.
And a lot of the students thatcome to you have completed some
form of residential care and nowthey're working on transition.
One of the things we've alwayssaid about wilderness work is
(03:38):
that we're really good aboutmaking kids and young adults
successful in wilderness.
But then after that and I thinkthat that's part of what drove
Vaughn to start the Arai Societyand provide programming that
allows these folks coming out ofresidential care to kind of
re-find identity, identifyfamily systems issues, help the
(03:59):
family figure out how they'reworking with one another and
then start to achieve some ofthose success markers that
they've been trying for so long.
You know where.
Where are we?
This world has changed a lotwhen, like, has your work
changed?
Like is this?
Like?
Tell me about how it's landedon the ground for you right now,
maybe in comparison to how itwas before, where the family
(04:19):
systems piece really comes intothe model for you guys.
Like, how's it rolling rightnow?
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Well, todd, you know, I think that back in the day I
guess I'm old enough to say thatnow I thought about it sort of
medically and diagnostically interms of what the problems were
and where the focus reallyneeded to be in terms of
intervention and change.
I think that what's happened hasbeen that we've realized that
(04:46):
that's probably more looking atsymptoms in terms of functioning
and in terms of the kind ofstress and the kind of
productive lives that our youngadults want to lead.
However, in terms of supportand being realistic about how we
as human beings needrelationships and we need the
(05:07):
right kind of relational supportin our lives, I think that
what's happening is we'relooking a little deeper as
professionals and understandingthat this idea of imprinting and
definitely imprinting withconnection in our family systems
really sets us up for how weconnect in our lives with our
(05:28):
peers and out in the real world.
And so trying to understand howthe family system affects and
sets us up and the implicationsof our relationships and our
families, not only for romanticrelationships and intimacy, but
even for connection andfriendships not only for
romantic relationships andintimacy, but even for
connection and friendships isreally what we're trying to use
(05:48):
a relationship model at theprogram.
That's how we're really tryingto use it.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Well, yeah, I mean, I think over the last decade it's
certainly shifted from, youknow, let's cure these kind of
ailments or these symptoms,let's cure depression, let's
cure anxiety to more of anunderstanding that we're not
really here to cure thesediagnoses.
(06:12):
We want to reduce the symptoms,of course, but how do we help
our young adults, how do we helpthe students, as we call them,
learn how to build socialsupports around themselves so
that when life gets hard, whenthese symptoms maybe flare up
because they're never trulycured, how do they understand
(06:33):
how to pull people in to want tohelp support them, rather than
kind of pushing people?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
away.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Exactly and so like, if you, you know, todd, if you
think about it, as all of us onscreen and any adult out in your
life, one thing that we've allhad to learn how to do is to
build support systems around usfor when times get hard, forming
those close connections andthose relationships to pull
(07:04):
others into want to support themand then also reciprocating
that support is really difficultfor them to achieve that.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Well, and, steve, I think that you know, especially
young adults and other peoplewho are struggling with
neurodiverse issues reallysometimes struggle to understand
how they're affecting otherpeople and really perceive
whether they're pushing peopleaway or pulling them a little
closer.
And so we really think aboutthe family as a way of setting
individuals up.
(07:34):
Sometimes they come out highlyfunctional and really have a
great ability to pull peoplecloser and develop that support.
But many of the young adultsthat we work with really are not
aware of the effect thatthey're having on other people,
and so when there's socialdistance and when somebody is
pulling away because they'vebeen affected in a negative way,
(07:54):
our young adults have a hardtime understanding that effect.
And I think this is also aproblem, sort of a side effect
with technology, which isunderstanding in-person
relationships and how you'reaffecting somebody else is not
something that really can beexplored in a regular social
setting and maybe even in afamily.
And so therapeutically, we'rereally trying to pause the
(08:17):
interaction and say, okay, sowhat happened here in terms of
did you bring somebody closer ordid you push them away?
Not so much the right or thewrong of their view or the
morality of it, but more about?
Are you developing socialsupport around yourself?
What we see is based on youngadults coming out of their own
families of origin, oftentimesin the family.
(08:38):
That bid for closeness, if wecan use that language, has
worked.
The young adult has been indistress.
The mother or father has becomeinvolved, sometimes overly so,
but it has been a bid forconnection.
While you try and take thatshow out into the world.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I don't think it translates, especially not to
peers.
You know, if it's not yourfamily, there's no obligation to
kind of stay in there and keepthat closeness there versus our
friends.
You know, enough pushes, theystart to distance and we're left
alone again, which I think youknow.
We've all been through COVIDand I think one of the things
(09:15):
that COVID exacerbated more thananything else is this pervasive
loneliness that we see in ourstudents that come into Arise
and this lack of a skill set tobe able to pull those peers in,
and I think it even ingrainedour students more within their
emotional system, within theirfamilies, in terms of how you
(09:36):
bid for closeness.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, there's also, you know there was a lot of kind
of detachment as a model forengagement.
You know you're all sitting infront of screens.
Nobody really knows what'sgoing on with one another.
Kids are complaining aboutteachers and each other.
They don't get to see eachother in person.
You guys have seen the.
You probably have the blank faceexperiment, which is, I find,
almost unbearable to watch, andI think that we're that's what
(10:00):
we get from our screens.
We get blank face kind of stuff, and so these kids are coming
out and I completely, from amental health standpoint, being
able to symptom manage.
You know, if you have a, if youhave a traumatic event let's
say you had a car accident andevery time you get in the car
you suffer from a little bit ofanxiety because that car
(10:23):
accident kind of follows youwherever you go, whenever you're
in a vehicle.
Now you can do all kinds ofthings around symptom management
, but if you didn't know that itwas the vehicle that was the
associative element in yourreaction, it would be hard for
you to be like I don't even knowwhere this is coming from.
You know you would be lost.
And so for these you know a lotof kids.
(10:43):
A lot of young adults are comingout and they, they exist
somewhere on this neurodiversespectrum a lot more these days
because of all thisenvironmental stuff, and I think
that that's what they'resuffering from.
There's this society stuff, andI think that that's what they're
suffering from.
There's this society, there'sthis social anxiety, but they
can't identify where it stemsfrom.
And what you guys are doing isis not only you know, from a DBT
(11:03):
standpoint, right Teaching themhow to do some symptom
management, how to feel lessanxious or how to manage
depression if it shows up, or dosome of the very good practices
that are part of mental healthtreatment, but you're also
working with these folks justlike let me recognize my
environment, this is not how itwas at home.
There is a world out there.
(11:24):
I have to figure out how tointerface with it, and there's a
lot of theory that's going onaround about the neurodiverse
environment, about how peopleengage with the real world,
where they find environment,where do you guys get the most
traction in getting them anopportunity to find their way
there?
Like, where's the work reallyseen?
You know what I'm asking, like,where's this really taken off
(11:46):
for these?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
So I think what we've really tried to do is shift
away from this, if I can say,old school mentality of
accountability and really tryingto transition into something
that's a lot more relevant foryoung adults, that they can
really get a grasp onintellectually and emotionally.
And so we're talking aboutpattern and we're talking about
(12:10):
that pattern that happens whentheir intention is to create
closeness but the effect isactually distance.
And so a lot of the groupprocess and a lot of the
relational therapy kind ofprocess is that exploration of
the discrepancy or dissonancebetween intention and effect and
then understanding that overdifferent people, circumstance
(12:33):
and time, they're carrying thatsame pattern of what we use,
kind of a sexy word, parataxicdistortion, which is something
that adults can start.
Young adults can start saying,okay, so this is my parataxic
distortion, I'm bidding forconnection, but I'm actually
pushing people away and I'mdoing it at different times in
(12:53):
my life with different peopleand over different circumstances
.
That's something that I thinkis a tool that they can really
take out into the world and it'snot just contained within a
therapeutic environment.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Well, I mean, I really do, and I have a really
fun example.
I'll be a little vulnerablewith you guys.
I was a managing director.
I was working for Cooper Eastat the time and we were opening
a new program.
I had to be part of the boardmeetings and everything else.
And you know the board andfounders were pretty you know
(13:27):
big personalities and that kindof thing.
I love them to death.
But there was some issue thatwe were in disagreement about
and I said no, it's got to bethis way.
And they're like.
I said no, it's got to be thisway.
And they're like well, no, it'sgot to be this way.
And we sat there in the meetingand then you know, virgil pulls
me around, he's the executivedirector, he's my boss and he's
like so I'm not trying to arguewhether or not you're right or
(13:49):
wrong.
You know you've got experiencethat's valid, et cetera.
What I want to ask you is didyou achieve what you set out to
achieve in making the statementthat you made?
And it just it hit me.
It just it hit me in the face.
I was just like duh, because Ifailed miserably.
I may have said something thatwas true, but failed miserably
(14:10):
in achieving what I wanted toachieve Exactly.
There's my parataxic distortion.
Yeah, right there too.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
You know, of course, active and communicate with
Steve, and sometimes Steve isgreat.
He'll step out of the processand say do you realize the
effect that you're having rightnow?
And I hate it when he does it.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, you know, ceo changes the temperature of the
room.
You got to practically sit on.
You got to allow your back inthe floor just so you don't say
something, right?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
You know, todd, I think that in terms of because I
loved your question about thetraction and where do our
students get that traction thereis a shift when we start
talking about their pattern andthen they start referencing
their pattern versus thataccountability.
But at the same time, thetraction really takes hold
within their socialrelationships at Arise versus
(15:03):
it's you know, vaughn or myself,your therapist or program
directors, kind of saying youknow, talking about your pattern
, versus their friends, startingto get this level of closeness
where they understand eachother's patterns and they start
talking to each other about thatprocess, you know, and they
they're able to open up and say,you know, when I'm doing this,
(15:25):
you know, I guess it's like howdo you see me, how do I come
across to you guys, and it'sthey're not asking a quote,
unquote, authority figure,they're asking someone that has
an authentic friendship with andthat's really that traction, it
really locks in for them ofthis is relatable and valuable
for me versus.
I can explain six ways ofSunday why this therapist is
(15:50):
wrong.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
What you're telling me is you have an experience,
you're having them reflect,they're getting some
generalization and getting theopportunity to apply.
Sounds like a cycle.
What is that cycle?
I forget what it is, but youguys are using the real world,
as opposed to the experientialcycle that we use in these kind
(16:13):
of microcosm but essentiallyfabricated environments and or
experiences not that they losetheir value, they're getting a
lot of that in wilderness.
You guys are taking this model,kind of, I'd say, to the next
level where what they get to dois interface with a real social
environment.
They get to be in, they getsupport being in awareness or
(16:35):
recognizing their own patternsand after recognizing it, they
can be like oh wait, you knowwhat?
Let me process, let'sexperiment with this a little
bit.
Let me see if I can get somesuccesses, shifting from the
pattern I know is not working toa pattern that I think can work
, and build that and work withit with my peers Continue to
(16:57):
have this support, but they itsounds like, like they just pick
it up and they take it andthey're able to use it in a way
that causes it to be successfulout in the real world, and the
more of those successes theyhave, obviously, the more
confident they feel.
How do families?
Going back to family systems,what do you see?
What do you like?
How do you see familiesresponding to this?
Because we know, you know, themy new favorite term is the
(17:19):
Zamboni parent.
Have you heard this expression?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
The Zamboni is the ice, the thing that like packs
down the ice on an ice rink.
You're like the Zamboni parent.
That's how close they are, ontop of their kids.
How does it work with?
You may be supportive,potentially overly involved
parents and the family system.
Where do you see that?
Where's the traction there?
Like, where do parents start tomake the shift and what does it
look like when you see thesethings start to happen?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I can start Sure.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I mean, we both do this all day, every day.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
So I think that this is where the theory really comes
to play, because we work withintelligent people who are not
just listening to a therapist'srecommendations but can
challenge us and really want tounderstand a methodology.
So if you'll bear with me for aminute, we'll talk a little bit
(18:18):
about Winnian systems, becauseit's really what I needed to
sort of bring the parents alongand bring the emotional system
along in the family.
Bowen really thought ofproblems and symptoms being
associated with anxiety and hetook an ecological model, which
is we're not very different thanprimates in terms of yeah,
we've got a prefrontal cortex.
That's very different thanprimates in terms of, yeah,
we've got a prefrontal cortexthat's explaining things, but in
general, we're reacting toanxiety as a physical experience
(18:43):
the same way animals are, andso he talked a lot about how-.
Hearing it in the limbic system.
You know yeah, yeah, yep.
So he talked and came up withideas around how these two
forces in our interpersonalworld act together and sometimes
against each other, and henamed them individuality and
(19:05):
togetherness.
And those two forces work verywell together when the system is
not stressed and it's calm,system is not stressed and it's
calm.
And as we interview parents andas we work with understanding
their interaction with eachother, we start to get a sense
about how parents are managingthe emotional proximity between
(19:25):
each other and how anxiety is alittle bit like an electrical
impulse moving through a circuit.
So if you think about, I likethat analogy the parent
relationship system being acapacitor, it carries emotional
load from the stress and that'swhat it's really meant to do.
And so we really validateparents in terms of they've
(19:46):
gotten together, they blendedtheir families, they paid
student loans, they've gonethrough school, they bought
homes, they've had kids, they'vegone through a lot of these
lifetime milestones of stress,and that parent system, that
relationship system within theparents, has really carried a
lot of emotional load.
So we don't blame them whenthey keep doing the same thing
(20:07):
over and over again because it'sbeen so effective in their
history in terms of who drivesand who sits in the passenger
seat, or however they managethat stress.
Bowen had the idea and came upwith the idea of four emotional
regulatory mechanisms, one beingdistance, which calms the
(20:28):
system down, and then anotherbeing engagement, which is
oftentimes associated withconflict.
That really gets the systemgoing and is necessary to get
things done.
He also had the idea thattriangles are really the
blueprint or the patterning forwhich the emotional circuitry
moves through, and that was thebalancing or the most stable
(20:49):
relationship molecule is what hecalled it.
And then fourth, he really hadthe idea that there was this
reciprocal positioning wheresomebody drives and somebody
sits shotgun in the parentalrelationship and through those
four systems they really managethe closest and distance between
each other or the emotionalproximity.
As long as all of thosemechanisms are flexible and
(21:11):
they're at play, it handlesstress amazingly well with
primates and they're at play.
It handles stress amazinglywell with primates.
But the moment that one ofthose becomes the primary way
that the parents are managingstress you take care of the kids
, I'm going to go out and work,I'll sit on the emotional
periphery you becomeover-involved with the children.
This is what we would callreciprocal positioning.
It becomes problematic when thekids grow up and there's new
(21:34):
emotional stressors that areimpinging upon the family.
And just as a tail end of that,I think Steve and I can say
after a decade of doing this inthis program we have not met one
family we've worked with thatdoesn't have a two to four year
clustering of stress.
That's happened to them.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
That's put the parent system underwater, floods the
system with that electricity,with that anxiety, put the the
parent system underwater, floods, floods the system with.
You know that electricity, withthat anxiety, and then the
system becomes rigid, to, to uh,to work through that process
together.
But then, even once that anxietyhas been dispersed, the system
(22:12):
stays rigid and so anxiety or,if we want to, you know,
continue to use the electricalmetaphor there's almost like a
grounding wire for that anxietyto get fed through, to dissipate
, which oftentimes is one of thechildren and so you know I
would call this identifiedpatient right, but reality is
(22:34):
it's one of those mechanisms.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
It's a triangle where the parents are now probably in
some degree of emotionalseparation between each other
because there's just so much todo and so much to handle, and
they connect over their children, and so this is the way that
the triangle works, which is theparents are close but not
really in a relationship witheach other anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
It's about the kids and getting them to soccer
practice.
You have kids, right.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Right, yeah, and so you gave that example or the
metaphor of the car and thetrauma, and it's like how do we
kind of zoom out to understandwhat the car is doing or how
that's sparking that trigger,the triggering response, and for
us that zoom out to help usunderstand the student, the
(23:21):
child that's with us is withinthis dynamic, within this family
system that tends to createthese symptoms.
Right, and there's differentkinds.
There's physical symptoms thatsometimes we see, whether that's
migraines or stomach aches orasthma, whatever that there's
social.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Neck addiction and all those other pieces like.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yep Social, physical and emotional issues that come
out of these systems, and wedon't only see them with the
students that we have with themobviously with the parents as
well.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
That's staying up late gaming too, right,
obviously with the parents aswell.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
That's staying up late, gaming too, right, right,
you know it's so interestingbecause a lot of the students
that we have who have siblingswhen Vaughn's talking about the
reciprocal positioning that wesee in terms of mitigating this
anxiety a lot of their siblingsare really high achievers
Harvard, yale, you know doingamazing in their jobs.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
And then we have the student, the child that actually
insulated in a way theirsiblings from where that anxiety
pooled around Because all theparents over anxious and worry
and focuses on that child and Ithink if we're not careful we as
a program can replicate andperpetuate the same kind of
worry and concern that theparents have.
So you know, sitting in themiddle of that triangle as a
program, creating some distanceto calm the system down, I think
(24:49):
, is what programs have beendoing and what they're effective
with, but reconfiguring thefamily system so that when
closeness starts to developagain between the young adult
and their family it's adifferent pattern of connection.
That's where I think the realimportant work is in front of us
.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Well, I like the idea of the shift away from
accountability, which kind ofcomes laden with judgment and
everything else.
There's this self-esteem piecethat's wrapped up in it, even if
you don't mean it to be right.
And then all of a sudden it'slike no, here's what I want you
to do.
I want you to recognize thepattern.
I want you to.
Let's, let's work on this.
(25:27):
And then the family recognizesthe pattern and all of a sudden
they start to see this car.
It's like oh, it's a car, youknow this thing that's
triggering everybody.
Then they have the opportunityto do something about it.
I mean, that's in many ways, Ithink, that some of the
direction that we go not tothrow the baby out with the
bathwater.
It's not that we don't want aperson to be accountable Of
(25:49):
course you do but it's really alot more about going toward
something what you want in yourlife being able to be functional
and everything else than awayfrom something which is this
shame from having not beenaccountable in the past and
things that you needed to havedone better, like it's a.
It's just a far better outlookwhen you're doing treatment
honestly and for a person toland on the ground Outcomes wise
(26:13):
like what are you seeingoutcomes?
Wise, like, what are you seeing, like, by the time, a person
I'm sure that you guys arecommunicating with, folks that
are that are, you know,graduating and they're going out
into their own lives what areyou hearing back?
A little bit Like, what do you,what's the what's the success
story look like for you guys?
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, Well, todd, I think that a couple of things in
response to that question, oneof which is Vaughn and I sat
down and really tried to figureout.
What does success look like Ina transitional program?
What does 100% independencemean?
Is that even our goal?
(26:48):
Has anyone in our livesachieved whatever 100%?
Speaker 1 (26:51):
independence.
I'm still not independent.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Right, exactly, lives achieved, whatever 100%, I'm
still not independent.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
Right, exactly, it's we.
We utilize our support systemsand we we have our relationships
to help us get through life.
So, in terms of our studentsand their independence, the
thing that we're really tryingto work towards at Arise is our
parents, the parents that wework with, still utilizing Arise
to maintain the closeness withtheir child.
(27:15):
Are the parents using theprogram so that they can still
feel close to their kids we want?
Well, let me explain that for amoment.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
So you know, in our and we all know this regularly
therapists will get on the callwith the parents once a week and
they'll talk about how theiryoung adult or their adolescent
is doing.
But in the subtext, I think forthat is that the parents
develop a degree of emotionalcloseness and safety and
understanding from the therapistin terms of a little bit of
(27:44):
what they're going through.
But that relationship hasreally that pattern or that
connection has really beendeveloped through the young
adult, not between the therapistand the parent directly,
developed through the youngadult, not between the therapist
and the parent directly.
So one of the things that we'rechanging is that we're
establishing a relationship withthe parents.
Sorry, we're establishing arelationship with the parents
(28:05):
directly where we talk abouttheir history, their upbringing
and how they connected in theirown families, and so instead of
thinking about it like maritaltherapy, we really think about
it a lot more vertically interms of taking the parents back
to their own growing up years,their relationship with their
siblings and mostly Todd, howthey are adjusting to how their
(28:28):
parents were managing anxietybetween themselves.
They take that into theirmarriage and there's a blending.
So then you get thisperpetuation intergenerationally
anxiety between themselves.
They take that into theirmarriage and there's a blending.
So then you get thisperpetuation intergenerationally
.
But I think parents feel a lotcloser with us and trust us a
lot more when they feel like therelationship is direct and we
get a lot better sense about howthey're interacting and
(28:49):
connecting and supporting theirchildren in general and that
sort of emotional system that'sgoing on in the family but you
know, I just had just had jackhim and you know dr jack on the
show and we were talking about.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
We were talking about intimacy, relationships and
attachment styles.
You know that's uh, you know itsounds, even though that that's
not necessarily the thrust ofwhat you're talking about.
It's certainly, it's certainlylurking in the background the
Bowen system stuff.
You know where, the way thatthis person came about in the
world and formed relationshipsand their attachment style and
(29:25):
everything else, it's allplaying out on the other side
and you know the let's call itthe named patient right is has
got some configuration of thesethings.
They don't understand them all.
It's hard for them to witnessthe pattern Uh, the parents are
having, are struggling withchanging it up because they
they're not witness to their ownstuff.
And it sounds like what youguys are doing.
(29:46):
It's just like, look, it's likeSherpa-ing the whole thing.
It's like I want to show youwhere we're going.
I want to show you where we'regoing.
I want to show you what kind ofmap you're working with so that
you can navigate this yourself.
But through that I would stillturn.
You know, a person who can giveyou good direction is somebody
you cultivate a lot of trustwith, and we all know that
(30:07):
Therapeutic Alliance is one ofthe strongest features to a
successful program and it soundslike the thrust of some of this
, the thrust of some of thesuccess that you're seeing, is
in the therapeutic alliance thatyou're giving by not only
identifying the pattern and anability to adjust the pattern,
but also this piece aboutthere's no judgment here.
(30:31):
You know, we're looking at thesource of these things, we're
looking at the things thatoccurred.
We're going to take thejudgment out of it just so that
we can observe it as information.
It's information, let's use itto our, to our benefit, and I
think that it's been a real.
It's been a real road, you know, since you know the, the
forties and fifties for therapyas a whole and treatment for
(30:53):
sure, to land in this placewhere that's a central, that
becomes now a central feature towhat's going on.
Judgment you know, back in theday of the analyst right, a
person who could tell youeverything about it and judges
your stuff and make sure thatyou know what's wrong and sends
you out the door.
Yeah Right, the doctor, you knowit's a, it's a far, I mean.
(31:17):
I mean we've just we've come along way.
I'm I love to see this landingon the ground, the.
The last thing that I'll askyou guys, before we have to
agree to have another show aboutall this, is, um, when you see
parents coming to you after thefact, are you see, are they
reporting anything about therelationship they have with one
(31:39):
another, either improving orhaving some changes that they
were able to recognize?
What's going on between parents, not just between them and
their children, but between theintimate partners themselves?
Do you see anything that'shappening there?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah, I want to say a couple things on that, Todd.
So Carl Whitaker, master oftherapy, said it was all in the
setup, and I think that parentscome in with the expectation
that they're sort of going todrop their young adult off and
then we're going to do thefixing, this old way of thinking
.
You know, it really doesn'tchange in terms of we've created
(32:13):
some distance, the parents calmdown, we work with the kid,
they learn about themselves inthe program and how to develop
those relationships.
But then, after therapeutictreatment is over and the child
moves closer back into thefamily system, the pressure to
rejoin the system that has notchanged is so intense that
oftentimes we see regression.
(32:33):
That has not changed is sointense that oftentimes we see
regression.
Now, oftentimes, when parentsare able to really get involved
with us and change that dynamicin what we call the triangle,
then at some point we do seeactual change happening for the
young adult, where they'redeveloping a different kind of
connection with their parents.
(32:54):
But if we're not careful, whatwill happen is that somebody
else will move into what we callthe outside position of the
triangle and oftentimes that'smother, because the predominant
majority of our families are dadon the emotional periphery,
mother over-involved with thechildren, right?
So then, as we try and changethat, the mother moves out of
(33:15):
that overinvolvement.
But then where does all of thatanxiety that she's been
dispersing onto her childthrough the connection go?
And that really is difficultfor the parent that's been
overinvolved.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
She ends up overcompensating, or sometimes
it's a he, but more often theshe.
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
So then the person usually dad on the emotional
periphery really doesn't want toget that much closer.
He's a really good agent tosupport mom.
He'll give rides, he'll doeverything else, but he doesn't
want to be emotionally in thatentanglement with the child and
so he stays on the outside.
Then mother's going to dosomething else in terms of a
friend or a different child, oreven a parent or a sibling, but
(33:56):
that anxiety has to go somewhereelse until we really teach
parents about differentiation,which was a term that Bowen
coined, which is really reallyimportant in terms of how we
deal with stress and we don'ttransmit it on through the
emotional system.
So there's a lot of complexityhere, but the overall message is
(34:17):
nobody's a bad guy, everybody'sjust learned from their own
families how to manage thatanxiety.
And then the beat just goes onand on and on, and we have a lot
of passion about thisintergenerational pattern that
goes on from each generation inthe family pattern that goes on
from each generation in thefamily.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
So I mean Todd, we'll meet with and we used to meet
with parents together on screenand do the genogram.
We realized that oftentimes thedad was answering questions but
then looking over at his wifeto make sure he was answering
them correctly.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
So we we call this the puppet dictator syndrome.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
So we started interviewing them separately to
do their own family of originand I think it's the first time
in what has typically been areally long line of treatment
that both the child and thefamily has been through, where
the parents start to feel onelike individuals, not like a
unit, this amalgamous unit,right.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And differentiated unit right.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Exactly, and they also start to get their own day
in the spotlight, if you will,where they're getting their own
therapeutic experience, notthrough the lens of their child,
but through their own, you know, working with me and Vaughn,
and they're also.
We're not talking to parents,we're talking to children of
parents, because we're workinginto their family of origin.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
So it really starts Do you see, when you do that, do
you see like, does dad hate itand mom loves it?
Is that?
Do you see that sometimes it'smore?
Speaker 3 (35:47):
about a different perspective.
So we talked about this clusterof stressful events that hits
the family system.
When we interview themindependently, it is amazing
either their different take onit or even different stressors
that each one of them leaves outand other stressors that they
add in because they see it as anindividual rather than as a
(36:08):
unit, and it's reallyinteresting.
Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Todd, Interesting.
Go ahead, Todd.
I was going to say to yourpoint, Steve, in some ways it's
got to feel really relieving forthem to come in and be like
this is about me and who I wasas a child coming into this and
not about this relationship.
And I thought it was going tobe about our marriage.
But instead I've got to likepersonalize it, Like that's got
to feel really unique.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Well, I don't think it's so daunting for them.
I mean marital therapy and us,coming in from their perspective
, kind of monkeying around withthe relationship system that
they've used so well over somany life events.
At some point it's, I think, alot more relieving yeah,
Relieving for them to work backinto their own family system.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Well, you know, and I think and I'm not sure if I'm
going to make any friends withthis statement but within the
last decade we've the field inand of itself has really shifted
away from the identifiedpatient, but I don't really see
that there's been a methodologyaround doing that.
(37:13):
I see a lot of Like how tochange it Right.
I see a lot of Like how tochange it Right.
I see a lot of familyinvolvement, but the involvement
still focuses around the kidthat's in the program, versus
having this Bowenian frameworkto operate with the parents
within their own families oforigin.
So the calls that Vaughn and Iare on, we don't even talk about
(37:33):
their children that are with us.
We're solely focused on whateach of these parents' lives
have been through and thepatterns that they have taken
from their own families oforigin into their nuclear family
.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
We got it.
Let's talk about you.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Right exactly.
And you know you asked about ifsometimes the dads are a little
bit resistant, or moms Rightnow.
What we found out is they arethrilled to get their time with
us.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
You know, we even had a dad recently who the effect
of the conversation, you know, Iwasn't even asking a lot of
questions, he was just kind ofspilling everything out.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
You knocked the dam and he yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
well, the effect of it was oh man, I don't really
think he's gotten a lot ofopportunity while his kid's been
in treatment to really talkabout what's gone on for him and
what really is like, moved himaround from his own growing up
as a kid and how that istransferred over into his life
as a father, and so it was areally kind of powerful process
(38:41):
to see play out of him justopening up in that way without a
lot of prompting.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
But, I think the application of it is that we
then see how the young adult canbecome aligned with the parent.
That might be on the emotionalperiphery, but again, if we're
not careful, that moves theother parent to the outside
position and that's no goodeither.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
You've got to be constantly aware of the balance
it's very technical the balanceof the system.
Right yeah, very technical.
That makes a lot of sense when.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Vaughn's talking about this togetherness and
individuality force.
This togetherness andindividuality force we are you
know me and you Todd, me andVaughn.
We are always moving back andforth along that continuum, kind
of mitigating our own anxiety.
As you know, if I feel that meand Vaughn are too much
(39:30):
togetherness force and myanxiety goes up, then I'm going
to back off a little bit andwe're just doing this
unconsciously constantly.
But within families, that kindof get this influx of anxiety,
they get that rigid kind of I'monly only the togetherness force
will work or only theindividuality.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Right, well, I hope that this interview hasn't
thrown your balance off,gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I really know it would take more than this
interview, I think.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Well, I am sure glad that you guys were able to make
it and be here together on theshow.
I am absolutely thrilled aboutthe work that you're both doing.
I've had Dr Vaughn Heath andSteve Roth here on the show with
the Arise Society.
This has been Head InsideMental Health with Todd
Weatherly on WPBM 1037, theVoice of Asheville.
(40:22):
We'll be with you folks nexttime.
Steve Vaughn, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
I found you in this web.
Thank you, bye.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
(41:57):
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
I need to find my way home.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I feel so lonely and lost in here.
I need to find my way home.
I feel so lonely and lost inhere.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I need to find my way home.
Find my way home.
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