January 12, 2025 • 25 mins
Andrew Glover, known to most as Gloves, has spent his career navigating the ins and outs of the sheep industry, managing operations that run 600,000 sheep a year. He started his career straight out of school, wool classing, and is now station manager at one of Australia’s largest and most innovative sheep studs, Pooginook. Andrew’s passion for the job has only grown, as has his understanding of what makes farming work. He knows that success comes down to investing in the right places—genetics, infrastructure and people.
Andrew has some great advice for those wanting to begin a career in ag. He says that leadership isn’t about titles; it’s about action. He values hands-on experience, seeing it as the foundation of a solid farming operation.
Andrew has a true passion for sheep farming and his story is proof that a clear vision and a relentless focus on improvement can keep you, and the industry, moving forward.
Head Shepherd is brought to you by neXtgen Agri International Limited. We help livestock farmers get the most out of the genetics they farm with. Get in touch with us if you would like to hear more about how we can help you do what you do best: info@nextgenagri.com.
Thanks to our sponsors at MSD Animal Health and Allflex, and Heiniger Australia and New Zealand. Please consider them when making product choices, as they are instrumental in enabling us to bring you this podcast each week.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Head Shepherd.
We're doing another one live,which is great.
We like doing the odd one outand about, so we're out here in
the river today catching up withAndrew Glover, otherwise known
as Gloves Gloves.
Thanks for having us today.
When did you?
Yeah, we'll start with a fewquestions, and always we start
with a bit of a background whendid you know you sort of wanted
to clear an ag, and has thereever been anything else you
(00:20):
think you might have wanted todo or think?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
you might have wanted to do.
Yeah, it's a good question andsomething that we probably spend
a bit of time pondering aboutover the years.
But yeah, I was always anoutside kid growing up.
Mum and Dad were both schoolteachers and Dad was bitten by
an agricultural bug.
He's a Sydney boy, but he wasbitten by an agricultural bug
and he bought a little property300 acres.
So I grew up there and, yeah,agriculture was on and
(00:43):
especially sheep was alwayssomething I was interested in.
But I did toy with the idea ofbeing a bricklayer or a butcher
or something like that, alongwith every other kid's dream of
being, you know, an athlete ofsome description.
But yeah, no, sheep are sort ofwhere I've been in agriculture.
I think it's a space that's gotso many doors that you can open
.
It's just a matter of findingthe one that fits what you want
(01:04):
to do?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah, yeah, 100%, and you could have played footy,
because you actually won't dothat, have you?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
No, no it's all lies.
It's all lies, mate.
I've broken down old has-been.
Yeah righto.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah, talk us through yourcareer today.
So lots of stepping stones.
You did the contracting fromday one to where we are today.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, no, it's been a path full of twists and turns,
but pretty much early days athigh school I had found a
passion for agriculture thesubject agriculture but I had a
really good careers advisor whowas a mad, keen sheep breeder
and I used to skip a few classesthat I didn't like eg English
and spend a bit of time in hisoffice talking sheep.
(01:44):
So that got me interested and Iwas, you know, always keen to
get out and do some otherexternal study and whatnot.
So I actually completed my woolclassing certificate while I
was at school in year 11 and 12,two nights a week and from
there went straight fromfinishing school in Cootamundra
to UNE to study a Bachelor ofLivestock Science, sheep and
(02:05):
wool production, and that was afour-year course that I
completed both internally andexternally, like full-time and
part-time, and during that stage, during that time, I worked
part-time or I worked full-time,sorry on a cropping place and I
did a bit of interstate truckdriving as well.
Towards the back end of thestudy In 2009, I'd sort of
(02:26):
completed, got the certificatein the mail and realised that I
had $50,000 hex debt and I hadto work out how I was going to
leverage that investment to makea life for myself.
So I jumped into the contractingspace with a crutching trailer
and the plan was always to builda relationship with the client,
(02:49):
to then step out into aconsultancy role, try and get
some runs on the board, Isuppose, and then go into the
consultancy role.
But that sort of never reallyfully eventuated because the
contracting just got bigger andbigger to the point where in the
last couple of years, towardsthe back end of that 10-year
period of our lives, we weresort of handling 600,000 sheep a
year across 115 clients.
(03:12):
So that was really big.
So from there we'd, you know,be honest probably burn
ourselves out or burnt myselfout a little bit.
So I was looking to change thepace and jumped out of the
contracting space into into someinto a farm manager's role and
was lucky enough to go and beoperations manager up at a
well-known study in the centralwest where you do a lot of work
for, where we met each other upat mumble bone, and from there I
(03:35):
had a really good five yearsthere.
But then it was just time tochase that next or scratch that
next ditch, I suppose, and we'relucky enough to fall into this
role here where we are now atPudgenook and, yeah, still
really excited about where thesheep industry can go.
Despite the challenges we'reall facing with diminishing
returns and increasing coststructures, still think there's
a positive, bright future forthe right type of sheep in
(03:59):
Australia.
That's for certain.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, 100%.
Won't disagree with that at allno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
The unsuccessful places, I would say would be
fair, and I was.
I was really lucky I probablydidn't realise it until towards
the back end of that 10 years ofcontracting that I was lucky
enough to be invited intopeople's workplaces and
businesses and could cast like athird degree eye, like an
external eye, over what wasgoing on.
(04:45):
And I started asking lots ofquestions towards the back end
of that to try and build myknowledge set and gain some
trust, I suppose, in case I didwant to step out into that
consultancy space.
And the three things that stoodout for me, for guys that
really were the top endproducers of those 115 clients
we had on our books, wasprobably investment in
infrastructure, investment ingenetics and investment in their
(05:08):
people.
You know, with theinfrastructure becomes the
ability to, you know, run atthat, run it right, right at
that pointy end, and obviouslyto get to the pointy end you've
got to have good genetics.
And then people you we're allstuffed without people.
So you know that was probablythe three things that really
stood out.
And, yeah, any of those guysthat I used to work for,
listening, I'd extend a greatthanks and gratitude for
(05:31):
allowing us to be part of yourbusinesses for so long.
It was a good part of our livesand something that I'll never
forget.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, I think they're three keys to any business.
And well, obviously you can'tcontrol the genetics if you're
in a people business, but havingthat people right is critical.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, just another thing I'll probably put in there
.
Third, two was the one thingthat just stood out for me was
the guys who knew theirbusinesses or who were
successful and knew theirbusinesses inside out.
They did one or two things anddid them really really well.
They weren't what I call awhirlwind farmer, they didn't
chase the next fad, so to speak,and the best way to explain it
(06:08):
is probably when you get a phonecall to say we've got X amount
of sheep to do whatever to, andyou turn up and there's 500 less
or 500 more.
That was generally anindication that the guys didn't
have a full handle on theirbusiness.
So that was probably one thingI missed off that previous
question, that those successfulguys knew their business and
(06:30):
they knew it inside out, butthey kept it simple, you know,
weren't juggling too many balls,so to speak.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, no, your numbers is something we we refer
to a bit and yeah, obviously,and you do, yeah, lots of.
I guess you're in contracts.
Any contractor has thatexperience that way.
You've come out and catch a fewhundred or whatever, and then
there's a thousand yards orwhatever, and yeah, yeah, yeah
it was nearly a weeklyoccurrence back in the day I
mean, it's pretty clear fromfrom that job being contracted
(06:53):
for that many sheep.
It takes a massive engine and Ithink if we asked I haven't done
this.
But if we did ask lots ofpeople how to describe you, I
think work ethic and drive wouldcome up near the top of the
list.
Where does that sort of thatreal drive and work ethic come
from to keep the fires burning?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it's a good question and I think, to be
brutally honest, the drive to besuccessful has been instilled
in me from a young age.
Dad was a Sydney born and bredboy that ended up in the bush,
followed mum, got married.
Anyway, long story short short.
He was gifted, or he bought sixcorridor ewes and an old ram
(07:29):
and ran them on the back of theju young schoolyard, ended up
selling those for 60, the lambsfor 60 or something.
He thought, how good's farming?
I'm going to get into farming.
So went and bought 300 toughacres at coolac in the hills and
build a nice house.
But his work ethic was somethingthat sort of had rubbed off on
(07:50):
me but all of my brothers andsisters, one of four.
And to see Dad literally workhis hands to the bone every
weekend, every spare hour he hadto make that little block of
dirt financially viable for uswas something that I you know
I'll probably never.
You sort of don't realise it asa kid that you're getting
(08:11):
exposed to that, but it sort ofit rubs off for sure.
And the best way to sum up thework ethic and where it comes
from.
Not too many people have beenup to mum and dad's house where
they live up on top of quite abig hill, and dad and us kids,
as we got older, were a bit morehelp, but hand cemented a one
and a half kilometre driveway byhand because that was the
(08:37):
cheapest way to do it.
He didn't value his time,rightly or wrongly.
But you know, so long days andhard work was something we were
used to as kids and it sort ofjust rubbed off as a lot later
in life.
But I have worked out that youknow the old analogy you only
get what you get by.
The sweat of your brow is trueto a degree, but we've got to.
(08:57):
Everyone's got to work a littlebit smarter and I'm sort of
potentially learning that atnearly 40.
So, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure Icould I go back my work.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure I could like I would back
my work ethic, but I'm not sureI could stay down the barrel.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
A k and a half of concreting, yeah, yeah, yeah no,
it was, uh, it was 13, or yeah,it was round figures 13.
Summer holidays yeah yeah, dadused to buy a pallet of concrete
.
Um, when the concrete was done,we'd go on holidays.
It was all hand mixed shovel,the sand shovel, the gravel
shovel.
Yeah, yeah, the yeah cart thewater, you name it.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
That is a good way to teach work.
Graves, you're now managing asignificant station, pudgenook.
It's a big deal.
What advice would you give toyoung passionate people out
there that that would beaspiring to sort of take this
role on in the future?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, I think it's potentially a dream job for a
lot of guys out there that areaspiring to manage a station,
especially one with the aurathat Pudginook has in the
Riverina.
You know, long-term Merinostuds still producing top-end
rams, still supplying a lot oframs to the industry.
So there's that ability or thatpotential to influence the
industry from a seed stock pointof view and that's obviously a
(10:07):
big attraction for me to havetaken on this role.
But I think the advice that I'dgive would be that you just got
to take your time to do theapprenticeship.
It's a slow road.
Gain the experience and bepatient.
You've got to be really willingto do those jobs or to start at
the bottom to do those jobs thatdon't really fit what you think
you're up to.
(10:27):
You might have a $40,000 or$50,000 hex debt, but you've
still got to be willing to dragout that shitty sheep and crutch
it, fix that fence, do allthose things that we've all had
to do.
We've all started at the bottom.
Just be willing to stay curious, be willing to ask the
questions, be willing to throwyourself out in front of the
people that make the decisionabout who's going to be the
overseer, who's going to be theassistant manager who's going to
(10:50):
potentially be the manager?
Be positive and confident, workhard, but one key piece of
advice would be throw the clockaway.
Clock watches in agriculturedon't fit, so don't count hours.
It's a 24-hour-a-day,seven-day-a-week job and that's
the stuff that doesn't gounnoticed.
So work hard, stay committedand your time will come.
Just yeah and stay curiouswould probably be the main thing
(11:12):
.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, great thoughts.
And yeah, I think I 100% agreeon that clock-watching aspect.
It's sort of I don't know.
We came up through an era wherethere just wasn't an option to
be watching what the clock is,and I think we need to.
Yeah, I mean, obviously everyemployee has rights, but there's
still if you want to climb, youhave to work, and that's the
same as in McKinsey and PwC,like it's.
(11:36):
All the big firms are the sameand agriculture is no different.
If you want to achievesomething, you actually have to
bend your back and make ithappen.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, you've got to be a bit of a self-starter back
and make it happen.
Yeah, you've got to be a bit ofa self-starter, you've got to
be willing to put the time in,and the harder you work, the
more you enjoy the time that youget not to work.
And I think it's a key thingthat, yes, we've all got
entitlements, but sometimes thejob at hand overrides that
entitlement and you've just gotto get the job done for the
(12:05):
benefit of the business or thecompany or whoever you're
working for, and it doesn't gounnoticed.
People take note.
So, yeah, I think when we grewup, we didn't have a clock on
every device we owned.
So unless you had one on yourwrist.
You were guided by the sun, andwhen the sun came up, you went
to work, and when it went down,you went home, and when it went
down, you went home.
So you know, that's whetherthat's the old school approach,
(12:26):
I don't know.
But yeah, I think that's prettykey that clock watches and
agriculture are two verydifferent worlds yeah, no 100.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I think your leadership point's a really good
one and I actually one of myusers that's probably been out
by the time of well, this isreleased but I think it doesn't
matter where you run a business.
You need to find a way to lead.
Like, even if you're the,you're the juniorist, junior
shepherd or whatever on the on aproperty, you still need to.
If you've got something you seewrong, you still need to find a
way to, and that's just throughcommunication, as you already
(12:54):
covered.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Like, leadership can come from all parts of wherever
you are in a business, you stillyou still have an opportunity
to show some leadership yeah, Iagree, and leadership has so
many different meanings and whenpeople think a leader they
quite often think a captain yeah, captain of the ship, sort of
thing.
But that's definitely not thecase and it's not the case in a
multi.
You know employee business like, um, yeah, it's, you've got to,
(13:19):
everyone's got to learn.
I think it's a, it's a realdevelopment piece that's.
That's sort of coming into alot of agriculture, probably
because it was missing for a lotof years.
It was more of a follow me type.
But if we want to keep staffand we want to attract the right
staff, we've got to createbuy-in.
And the best way to createbuy-in is give people an
opportunity to lead and take onsome of those meaningful tasks
(13:40):
as their own, change it to makeit suit them and do it better
than what we can do it.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I think that's I've always when, whenever I've
employed people, I've alwaystried to find someone that does
the job better than I can do itand then let them go and do it.
That makes life a little easierif you can find those people.
So here at bush it's.
It's one of.
It's home to one of australia'slargest marina stud.
The sheep industry is everchanging.
It's ever evolving um and to anextent, the marina studs should
lead this evolution.
What do you see as the featuresof pushing at Pomerino in 2035?
So if we could jump in our timemachine and fast forward sort
(14:12):
of 11 years or 10 and a bityears as we are today, what are
we looking at?
If we wandered out into theyards today, can we?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
jump in that time machine and see what the
market's going to do in 10 or 11years time.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
We wouldn't have to be here doing a podcast if we
knew that.
Answer mate.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, no, that's right.
Look, I 100% agree with whatyou're saying.
I think education is key behinda lot of that.
The industry needs educatorslike yourself and it needs studs
to help facilitate thateducation.
Pudginook, you know I'm lucky tohave inherited a great business
(14:47):
.
Pudgenook's been under theParraway Bennett for 16 years.
It's stood the test of time forall the right reasons.
So we're not tipping it upsidedown and all we're trying to do
now is just take off some ofthose sharp edges round the
animal out a bit more, become alittle bit more resilient and
(15:08):
ultimately more profitable, andwhether that's in lamb or wool,
or kilos of lamb produced orkilos of wool produced, I think
it's probably a combination ofboth, Not convinced that one or
the other is gonna reign supremein 10 years.
So, no, I think it'll be subtlechanges and, yeah, we just
hopefully no, not hopefully itwill be Pudginook will stand the
(15:30):
test of time and someone elsewill be able to stand here
behind this wall table in 20years or 10 years or however
long I last at the helm and beable to talk about it as well.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, exactly and I think, yeah, I guess, if we
could get in that crystal ball,I think they're relatively
predictable.
We've already seen, like wewere just chatting before, like
the RWS premiums are there andso we're seeing the market
rewarding the non-meal status ofPudginook.
We'll see well, the landmarkets bounce back pretty well
(16:01):
and we're going to see that meatmarket, like all the trends are
pretty good for the meat side,so that dual-purpose animal as
it already is, I can imaginethat will just keep building out
and some of the welfare traitswill keep kicking in there as
well.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You're right.
I think consumers will shapewhere we need to go, because if
we don't listen, we don't have amarket.
The RWS side of stuff quiteintriguing at the moment.
Like you said, we just soldsome wool yesterday.
That's shown that the premiumsare back and back in a big way
for some short 68 mil RWSaccredited wool.
(16:35):
So that's exciting and I think,yeah, the meat market people
have got to eat can't see thatchanging.
It's more just a matter oftrying to make ourselves
resilient and be able to flexwhen the season, the climate
variability we now all face beit like yesterday, like 30 mil
(16:56):
downpour, our rain seems to befalling in shorter, sharper
bursts and our dry patches aregetting longer and more frequent
.
Without going down that rabbithole, I think it's about
building businesses and animalenterprises that can flex, that
can ramp up and go hard when theseasons are good and then
tighten back down when theseasons aren't there, knowing
(17:19):
you can get back in quickly whenit turns.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Doing this interview and being where we are, we
wouldn't be appropriate withoutmentioning your wife, Peter.
Like lots of people inagriculture, it's a team effort.
How important to you has beensharing the career journey with
Peter.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, mate, peter's an amazing woman.
She's definitely helped takesome of my rough edges off.
Pretty big chisel some daysyeah, some days a chisel isn't
big enough.
No, look, she's been asuccessful entrepreneur in her
(17:58):
own right as well.
I think that's what made ussuch a good team, or makes us
such a good team is her abilityto sit back and look at the big
picture.
So obviously, raised fourbeautiful boys while I was
contracting and allowed me torun that business and probably
run a little bit harder than weshould have from a family point
of view, but kept us alltogether.
(18:19):
And then, yeah, she's beensuccessful, started and ran a
very successful laundromatbusiness which she sold when we
left Wellington.
She's had food trucks andcoffee carts and all sorts of
stuff.
So, yeah, no, peter, like yousay, it is a team effort.
There's no way I don't think Icould have done half of what
I've achieved without someonelike her beside me.
(18:40):
So, yeah, no, she's a veryimportant person and I know
she'll cook us a good feedtonight, ferg, so we'll be
spoiled, as usual.
But yeah, no, I love her dearlyand yeah, couldn't have done it
without her.
Yeah, no, I love her dearly andyeah, couldn't have done it
without her.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I understand Clive.
It's a question we askeverybody, which is the hardest
question we ask often, and thatis what is the last thing you
change your mind about.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, it's a great question and one I sort of was
trying to come up with somethingfunny to reply to, because I
did see this question come up.
But anyone that knows me knowsI change my mind nearly as often
as I've changed my socks, um,which is daily.
So just just to clarify, yeah,yeah, but I'm it's a very open
question and I was just tryingto think of, you know, obviously
, something funny.
But there's one thing that Ikeep coming back to and that's
(19:28):
probably the riverina itself.
Um, you know, I grew up atcootamundra in that you know,
some of that best wheat growingcountry in australia around
cootamundra, wallenbeen, throughthat, through that area.
There, you know the riverinawas sort of had this perception
of being borderline desert.
You know you're one step offthe great sandy desert in south
australia.
You know like it was, but it'sa big.
(19:50):
It's been a big eye openermoving down here and seeing how
strong this country is, how, howwell the stock do, the lack of
pressure that we spoke abouttoday in the car from worms and
diseases and things like that,but the ability for the country
to respond.
We've had 40 mils of rain inthe last two days.
We'll see a green pick come now, that'll carry our sheep
(20:13):
through joining.
Green pick come now, that'llcarry our sheep through joining.
And when I turned up here in2023, sorry we took on some
adjustment cattle that came downvery drought, ridden out of the
north out of that big droughtthat was on its way, and within
sort of two or three months theyturned around to become quite
good looking mob of cattle.
(20:33):
So, yeah, I think the thingI've changed my most on is the
ability of this country to beable to grow stock and be
productive, and it's probablyabout trying to find a now.
It's trying to find thegenotype that will allow us to
do that and make some goodreturns in the modern era.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, really interesting.
And maybe a supplementaryquestion is how, yeah, I mean,
in this strong country, peoplesort of see sheep out here and
see, like you're here, like youcan literally hear the fleece at
the table out here, becausethey grow great, great fleece
weights and and are healthy andthey have heaps of lambs,
because it is really reallystrong country.
But I guess, yeah, we have tobe careful about expecting these
(21:15):
sort of genetics to thentransform into other
environments that aren't so easy.
And that's the, that's the art,I suppose, of trying to seed
stock producers, trying to breedsheep that will not only do
well here but also do well asyou shift them into into
different environments that havedifferent challenges, I suppose
.
And that's kind of that's,that's the beauty of, I guess,
the breeding base to test thingshere that aren't maybe a
challenge here, but we can forcethem to have a challenge here
(21:36):
in worms or whatever, but it'snot really heavy worm country.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, and that's.
I think you're right there.
We're lucky enough to have abig client base, that a lot of
those guys are east of theNewell Highway, so back into
sort of a moderate to highrainfall dual purpose country
like cropping and grazingcountry.
So we we need to be able tobreed sheep that can go into
those areas, um, down intovictoria as well.
(22:00):
So you know, key things thatwe're we're focusing on and
we'll continue to focus on areobviously feet and worms and dag
and things like that, becausewhilst it may not be top of the
tree for our local environment,it's still there are still
correlations or fundamentals atplay that mean they perform well
in our environment.
In particular years and lastyear with our wet summer that
(22:23):
turned up.
This year, with the potentialof another wet summer, those key
traits will be paramount.
So, yeah, that is the beauty ofthe art of seed stock breeding,
something that I'm only new to,but I'm sure in time we'll get
there yeah, 100.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Awesome mate.
Thanks for you, thanks for yourtime and yeah, great, great to
have a chat.
We'll, we'll, uh, we'll beplenty of plenty more chats.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I'll be there after this yeah, and I look forward to
it, fergan, looking forward tohaving you on board and we'll go
from there.
Cheers, mate.
Welcome back to Head Shepherd.
We're doing another one live,which is great.
We like doing the odd one outand about, so we're out here in
the river today catching up withAndrew Glover, otherwise known
as Gloves Gloves.
Thanks for having us today.
When did you?
Yeah, we'll start with a fewquestions, and always we start
with a bit of a background whendid you know you sort of wanted
to clear an ag, and has thereever been anything else you
(00:20):
think you might have wanted todo or think?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
you might have wanted to do.
Yeah, it's a good question andsomething that we probably spend
a bit of time pondering aboutover the years.
But yeah, I was always anoutside kid growing up.
Mum and Dad were both schoolteachers and Dad was bitten by
an agricultural bug.
He's a Sydney boy, but he wasbitten by an agricultural bug
and he bought a little property300 acres.
So I grew up there and, yeah,agriculture was on and
(00:43):
especially sheep was alwayssomething I was interested in.
But I did toy with the idea ofbeing a bricklayer or a butcher
or something like that, alongwith every other kid's dream of
being, you know, an athlete ofsome description.
But yeah, no, sheep are sort ofwhere I've been in agriculture.
I think it's a space that's gotso many doors that you can open
.
It's just a matter of findingthe one that fits what you want
(01:04):
to do?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Yeah, yeah, 100%, and you could have played footy,
because you actually won't dothat, have you?
Speaker 2 (01:07):
No, no it's all lies.
It's all lies, mate.
I've broken down old has-been.
Yeah righto.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah, talk us through yourcareer today.
So lots of stepping stones.
You did the contracting fromday one to where we are today.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, no, it's been a path full of twists and turns,
but pretty much early days athigh school I had found a
passion for agriculture thesubject agriculture but I had a
really good careers advisor whowas a mad, keen sheep breeder
and I used to skip a few classesthat I didn't like eg English
and spend a bit of time in hisoffice talking sheep.
(01:44):
So that got me interested and Iwas, you know, always keen to
get out and do some otherexternal study and whatnot.
So I actually completed my woolclassing certificate while I
was at school in year 11 and 12,two nights a week and from
there went straight fromfinishing school in Cootamundra
to UNE to study a Bachelor ofLivestock Science, sheep and
(02:05):
wool production, and that was afour-year course that I
completed both internally andexternally, like full-time and
part-time, and during that stage, during that time, I worked
part-time or I worked full-time,sorry on a cropping place and I
did a bit of interstate truckdriving as well.
Towards the back end of thestudy In 2009, I'd sort of
(02:26):
completed, got the certificatein the mail and realised that I
had $50,000 hex debt and I hadto work out how I was going to
leverage that investment to makea life for myself.
So I jumped into the contractingspace with a crutching trailer
and the plan was always to builda relationship with the client,
(02:49):
to then step out into aconsultancy role, try and get
some runs on the board, Isuppose, and then go into the
consultancy role.
But that sort of never reallyfully eventuated because the
contracting just got bigger andbigger to the point where in the
last couple of years, towardsthe back end of that 10-year
period of our lives, we weresort of handling 600,000 sheep a
year across 115 clients.
(03:12):
So that was really big.
So from there we'd, you know,be honest probably burn
ourselves out or burnt myselfout a little bit.
So I was looking to change thepace and jumped out of the
contracting space into into someinto a farm manager's role and
was lucky enough to go and beoperations manager up at a
well-known study in the centralwest where you do a lot of work
for, where we met each other upat mumble bone, and from there I
(03:35):
had a really good five yearsthere.
But then it was just time tochase that next or scratch that
next ditch, I suppose, and we'relucky enough to fall into this
role here where we are now atPudgenook and, yeah, still
really excited about where thesheep industry can go.
Despite the challenges we'reall facing with diminishing
returns and increasing coststructures, still think there's
a positive, bright future forthe right type of sheep in
(03:59):
Australia.
That's for certain.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, 100%.
Won't disagree with that at allno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
The unsuccessful places, I would say would be
fair, and I was.
I was really lucky I probablydidn't realise it until towards
the back end of that 10 years ofcontracting that I was lucky
enough to be invited intopeople's workplaces and
businesses and could cast like athird degree eye, like an
external eye, over what wasgoing on.
(04:45):
And I started asking lots ofquestions towards the back end
of that to try and build myknowledge set and gain some
trust, I suppose, in case I didwant to step out into that
consultancy space.
And the three things that stoodout for me, for guys that
really were the top endproducers of those 115 clients
we had on our books, wasprobably investment in
infrastructure, investment ingenetics and investment in their
(05:08):
people.
You know, with theinfrastructure becomes the
ability to, you know, run atthat, run it right, right at
that pointy end, and obviouslyto get to the pointy end you've
got to have good genetics.
And then people you we're allstuffed without people.
So you know that was probablythe three things that really
stood out.
And, yeah, any of those guysthat I used to work for,
listening, I'd extend a greatthanks and gratitude for
(05:31):
allowing us to be part of yourbusinesses for so long.
It was a good part of our livesand something that I'll never
forget.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, I think they're three keys to any business.
And well, obviously you can'tcontrol the genetics if you're
in a people business, but havingthat people right is critical.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, just another thing I'll probably put in there
.
Third, two was the one thingthat just stood out for me was
the guys who knew theirbusinesses or who were
successful and knew theirbusinesses inside out.
They did one or two things anddid them really really well.
They weren't what I call awhirlwind farmer, they didn't
chase the next fad, so to speak,and the best way to explain it
(06:08):
is probably when you get a phonecall to say we've got X amount
of sheep to do whatever to, andyou turn up and there's 500 less
or 500 more.
That was generally anindication that the guys didn't
have a full handle on theirbusiness.
So that was probably one thingI missed off that previous
question, that those successfulguys knew their business and
(06:30):
they knew it inside out, butthey kept it simple, you know,
weren't juggling too many balls,so to speak.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, no, your numbers is something we we refer
to a bit and yeah, obviously,and you do, yeah, lots of.
I guess you're in contracts.
Any contractor has thatexperience that way.
You've come out and catch a fewhundred or whatever, and then
there's a thousand yards orwhatever, and yeah, yeah, yeah
it was nearly a weeklyoccurrence back in the day I
mean, it's pretty clear fromfrom that job being contracted
(06:53):
for that many sheep.
It takes a massive engine and Ithink if we asked I haven't done
this.
But if we did ask lots ofpeople how to describe you, I
think work ethic and drive wouldcome up near the top of the
list.
Where does that sort of thatreal drive and work ethic come
from to keep the fires burning?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yeah, it's a good question and I think, to be
brutally honest, the drive to besuccessful has been instilled
in me from a young age.
Dad was a Sydney born and bredboy that ended up in the bush,
followed mum, got married.
Anyway, long story short short.
He was gifted, or he bought sixcorridor ewes and an old ram
(07:29):
and ran them on the back of theju young schoolyard, ended up
selling those for 60, the lambsfor 60 or something.
He thought, how good's farming?
I'm going to get into farming.
So went and bought 300 toughacres at coolac in the hills and
build a nice house.
But his work ethic was somethingthat sort of had rubbed off on
(07:50):
me but all of my brothers andsisters, one of four.
And to see Dad literally workhis hands to the bone every
weekend, every spare hour he hadto make that little block of
dirt financially viable for uswas something that I you know
I'll probably never.
You sort of don't realise it asa kid that you're getting
(08:11):
exposed to that, but it sort ofit rubs off for sure.
And the best way to sum up thework ethic and where it comes
from.
Not too many people have beenup to mum and dad's house where
they live up on top of quite abig hill, and dad and us kids,
as we got older, were a bit morehelp, but hand cemented a one
and a half kilometre driveway byhand because that was the
(08:37):
cheapest way to do it.
He didn't value his time,rightly or wrongly.
But you know, so long days andhard work was something we were
used to as kids and it sort ofjust rubbed off as a lot later
in life.
But I have worked out that youknow the old analogy you only
get what you get by.
The sweat of your brow is trueto a degree, but we've got to.
(08:57):
Everyone's got to work a littlebit smarter and I'm sort of
potentially learning that atnearly 40.
So, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure Icould I go back my work.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure I could like I would back
my work ethic, but I'm not sureI could stay down the barrel.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
A k and a half of concreting, yeah, yeah, yeah no,
it was, uh, it was 13, or yeah,it was round figures 13.
Summer holidays yeah yeah, dadused to buy a pallet of concrete
.
Um, when the concrete was done,we'd go on holidays.
It was all hand mixed shovel,the sand shovel, the gravel
shovel.
Yeah, yeah, the yeah cart thewater, you name it.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
That is a good way to teach work.
Graves, you're now managing asignificant station, pudgenook.
It's a big deal.
What advice would you give toyoung passionate people out
there that that would beaspiring to sort of take this
role on in the future?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, I think it's potentially a dream job for a
lot of guys out there that areaspiring to manage a station,
especially one with the aurathat Pudginook has in the
Riverina.
You know, long-term Merinostuds still producing top-end
rams, still supplying a lot oframs to the industry.
So there's that ability or thatpotential to influence the
industry from a seed stock pointof view and that's obviously a
(10:07):
big attraction for me to havetaken on this role.
But I think the advice that I'dgive would be that you just got
to take your time to do theapprenticeship.
It's a slow road.
Gain the experience and bepatient.
You've got to be really willingto do those jobs or to start at
the bottom to do those jobs thatdon't really fit what you think
you're up to.
(10:27):
You might have a $40,000 or$50,000 hex debt, but you've
still got to be willing to dragout that shitty sheep and crutch
it, fix that fence, do allthose things that we've all had
to do.
We've all started at the bottom.
Just be willing to stay curious, be willing to ask the
questions, be willing to throwyourself out in front of the
people that make the decisionabout who's going to be the
overseer, who's going to be theassistant manager who's going to
(10:50):
potentially be the manager?
Be positive and confident, workhard, but one key piece of
advice would be throw the clockaway.
Clock watches in agriculturedon't fit, so don't count hours.
It's a 24-hour-a-day,seven-day-a-week job and that's
the stuff that doesn't gounnoticed.
So work hard, stay committedand your time will come.
Just yeah and stay curiouswould probably be the main thing
(11:12):
.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, great thoughts.
And yeah, I think I 100% agreeon that clock-watching aspect.
It's sort of I don't know.
We came up through an era wherethere just wasn't an option to
be watching what the clock is,and I think we need to.
Yeah, I mean, obviously everyemployee has rights, but there's
still if you want to climb, youhave to work, and that's the
same as in McKinsey and PwC,like it's.
(11:36):
All the big firms are the sameand agriculture is no different.
If you want to achievesomething, you actually have to
bend your back and make ithappen.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, you've got to be a bit of a self-starter back
and make it happen.
Yeah, you've got to be a bit ofa self-starter, you've got to
be willing to put the time in,and the harder you work, the
more you enjoy the time that youget not to work.
And I think it's a key thingthat, yes, we've all got
entitlements, but sometimes thejob at hand overrides that
entitlement and you've just gotto get the job done for the
(12:05):
benefit of the business or thecompany or whoever you're
working for, and it doesn't gounnoticed.
People take note.
So, yeah, I think when we grewup, we didn't have a clock on
every device we owned.
So unless you had one on yourwrist.
You were guided by the sun, andwhen the sun came up, you went
to work, and when it went down,you went home, and when it went
down, you went home.
So you know, that's whetherthat's the old school approach,
(12:26):
I don't know.
But yeah, I think that's prettykey that clock watches and
agriculture are two verydifferent worlds yeah, no 100.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I think your leadership point's a really good
one and I actually one of myusers that's probably been out
by the time of well, this isreleased but I think it doesn't
matter where you run a business.
You need to find a way to lead.
Like, even if you're the,you're the juniorist, junior
shepherd or whatever on the on aproperty, you still need to.
If you've got something you seewrong, you still need to find a
way to, and that's just throughcommunication, as you already
(12:54):
covered.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Like, leadership can come from all parts of wherever
you are in a business, you stillyou still have an opportunity
to show some leadership yeah, Iagree, and leadership has so
many different meanings and whenpeople think a leader they
quite often think a captain yeah, captain of the ship, sort of
thing.
But that's definitely not thecase and it's not the case in a
multi.
You know employee business like, um, yeah, it's, you've got to,
(13:19):
everyone's got to learn.
I think it's a, it's a realdevelopment piece that's.
That's sort of coming into alot of agriculture, probably
because it was missing for a lotof years.
It was more of a follow me type.
But if we want to keep staffand we want to attract the right
staff, we've got to createbuy-in.
And the best way to createbuy-in is give people an
opportunity to lead and take onsome of those meaningful tasks
(13:40):
as their own, change it to makeit suit them and do it better
than what we can do it.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I think that's I've always when, whenever I've
employed people, I've alwaystried to find someone that does
the job better than I can do itand then let them go and do it.
That makes life a little easierif you can find those people.
So here at bush it's.
It's one of.
It's home to one of australia'slargest marina stud.
The sheep industry is everchanging.
It's ever evolving um and to anextent, the marina studs should
lead this evolution.
What do you see as the featuresof pushing at Pomerino in 2035?
So if we could jump in our timemachine and fast forward sort
(14:12):
of 11 years or 10 and a bityears as we are today, what are
we looking at?
If we wandered out into theyards today, can we?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
jump in that time machine and see what the
market's going to do in 10 or 11years time.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
We wouldn't have to be here doing a podcast if we
knew that.
Answer mate.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, no, that's right.
Look, I 100% agree with whatyou're saying.
I think education is key behinda lot of that.
The industry needs educatorslike yourself and it needs studs
to help facilitate thateducation.
Pudginook, you know I'm lucky tohave inherited a great business
(14:47):
.
Pudgenook's been under theParraway Bennett for 16 years.
It's stood the test of time forall the right reasons.
So we're not tipping it upsidedown and all we're trying to do
now is just take off some ofthose sharp edges round the
animal out a bit more, become alittle bit more resilient and
(15:08):
ultimately more profitable, andwhether that's in lamb or wool,
or kilos of lamb produced orkilos of wool produced, I think
it's probably a combination ofboth, Not convinced that one or
the other is gonna reign supremein 10 years.
So, no, I think it'll be subtlechanges and, yeah, we just
hopefully no, not hopefully itwill be Pudginook will stand the
(15:30):
test of time and someone elsewill be able to stand here
behind this wall table in 20years or 10 years or however
long I last at the helm and beable to talk about it as well.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, exactly and I think, yeah, I guess, if we
could get in that crystal ball,I think they're relatively
predictable.
We've already seen, like wewere just chatting before, like
the RWS premiums are there andso we're seeing the market
rewarding the non-meal status ofPudginook.
We'll see well, the landmarkets bounce back pretty well
(16:01):
and we're going to see that meatmarket, like all the trends are
pretty good for the meat side,so that dual-purpose animal as
it already is, I can imaginethat will just keep building out
and some of the welfare traitswill keep kicking in there as
well.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
You're right.
I think consumers will shapewhere we need to go, because if
we don't listen, we don't have amarket.
The RWS side of stuff quiteintriguing at the moment.
Like you said, we just soldsome wool yesterday.
That's shown that the premiumsare back and back in a big way
for some short 68 mil RWSaccredited wool.
(16:35):
So that's exciting and I think,yeah, the meat market people
have got to eat can't see thatchanging.
It's more just a matter oftrying to make ourselves
resilient and be able to flexwhen the season, the climate
variability we now all face beit like yesterday, like 30 mil
(16:56):
downpour, our rain seems to befalling in shorter, sharper
bursts and our dry patches aregetting longer and more frequent
.
Without going down that rabbithole, I think it's about
building businesses and animalenterprises that can flex, that
can ramp up and go hard when theseasons are good and then
tighten back down when theseasons aren't there, knowing
(17:19):
you can get back in quickly whenit turns.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Doing this interview and being where we are, we
wouldn't be appropriate withoutmentioning your wife, Peter.
Like lots of people inagriculture, it's a team effort.
How important to you has beensharing the career journey with
Peter.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, mate, peter's an amazing woman.
She's definitely helped takesome of my rough edges off.
Pretty big chisel some daysyeah, some days a chisel isn't
big enough.
No, look, she's been asuccessful entrepreneur in her
(17:58):
own right as well.
I think that's what made ussuch a good team, or makes us
such a good team is her abilityto sit back and look at the big
picture.
So obviously, raised fourbeautiful boys while I was
contracting and allowed me torun that business and probably
run a little bit harder than weshould have from a family point
of view, but kept us alltogether.
(18:19):
And then, yeah, she's beensuccessful, started and ran a
very successful laundromatbusiness which she sold when we
left Wellington.
She's had food trucks andcoffee carts and all sorts of
stuff.
So, yeah, no, peter, like yousay, it is a team effort.
There's no way I don't think Icould have done half of what
I've achieved without someonelike her beside me.
(18:40):
So, yeah, no, she's a veryimportant person and I know
she'll cook us a good feedtonight, ferg, so we'll be
spoiled, as usual.
But yeah, no, I love her dearlyand yeah, couldn't have done it
without her.
Yeah, no, I love her dearly andyeah, couldn't have done it
without her.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I understand Clive.
It's a question we askeverybody, which is the hardest
question we ask often, and thatis what is the last thing you
change your mind about.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, it's a great question and one I sort of was
trying to come up with somethingfunny to reply to, because I
did see this question come up.
But anyone that knows me knowsI change my mind nearly as often
as I've changed my socks, um,which is daily.
So just just to clarify, yeah,yeah, but I'm it's a very open
question and I was just tryingto think of, you know, obviously
, something funny.
But there's one thing that Ikeep coming back to and that's
(19:28):
probably the riverina itself.
Um, you know, I grew up atcootamundra in that you know,
some of that best wheat growingcountry in australia around
cootamundra, wallenbeen, throughthat, through that area.
There, you know the riverinawas sort of had this perception
of being borderline desert.
You know you're one step offthe great sandy desert in south
australia.
You know like it was, but it'sa big.
(19:50):
It's been a big eye openermoving down here and seeing how
strong this country is, how, howwell the stock do, the lack of
pressure that we spoke abouttoday in the car from worms and
diseases and things like that,but the ability for the country
to respond.
We've had 40 mils of rain inthe last two days.
We'll see a green pick come now, that'll carry our sheep
(20:13):
through joining.
Green pick come now, that'llcarry our sheep through joining.
And when I turned up here in2023, sorry we took on some
adjustment cattle that came downvery drought, ridden out of the
north out of that big droughtthat was on its way, and within
sort of two or three months theyturned around to become quite
good looking mob of cattle.
(20:33):
So, yeah, I think the thingI've changed my most on is the
ability of this country to beable to grow stock and be
productive, and it's probablyabout trying to find a now.
It's trying to find thegenotype that will allow us to
do that and make some goodreturns in the modern era.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Yeah, really interesting.
And maybe a supplementaryquestion is how, yeah, I mean,
in this strong country, peoplesort of see sheep out here and
see, like you're here, like youcan literally hear the fleece at
the table out here, becausethey grow great, great fleece
weights and and are healthy andthey have heaps of lambs,
because it is really reallystrong country.
But I guess, yeah, we have tobe careful about expecting these
(21:15):
sort of genetics to thentransform into other
environments that aren't so easy.
And that's the, that's the art,I suppose, of trying to seed
stock producers, trying to breedsheep that will not only do
well here but also do well asyou shift them into into
different environments that havedifferent challenges, I suppose
.
And that's kind of that's,that's the beauty of, I guess,
the breeding base to test thingshere that aren't maybe a
challenge here, but we can forcethem to have a challenge here
(21:36):
in worms or whatever, but it'snot really heavy worm country.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, and that's.
I think you're right there.
We're lucky enough to have abig client base, that a lot of
those guys are east of theNewell Highway, so back into
sort of a moderate to highrainfall dual purpose country
like cropping and grazingcountry.
So we we need to be able tobreed sheep that can go into
those areas, um, down intovictoria as well.
(22:00):
So you know, key things thatwe're we're focusing on and
we'll continue to focus on areobviously feet and worms and dag
and things like that, becausewhilst it may not be top of the
tree for our local environment,it's still there are still
correlations or fundamentals atplay that mean they perform well
in our environment.
In particular years and lastyear with our wet summer that
(22:23):
turned up.
This year, with the potentialof another wet summer, those key
traits will be paramount.
So, yeah, that is the beauty ofthe art of seed stock breeding,
something that I'm only new to,but I'm sure in time we'll get
there yeah, 100.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Awesome mate.
Thanks for you, thanks for yourtime and yeah, great, great to
have a chat.
We'll, we'll, uh, we'll beplenty of plenty more chats.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
I'll be there after this yeah, and I look forward to
it, fergan, looking forward tohaving you on board and we'll go
from there.
Cheers, mate.
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