January 28, 2025 • 43 mins
Welcome to HeadHunters NW Podcast! I'm Shaylene Keiner, an executive recruiter with a passion for the global defense, small arms and shooting sectors. Join me as I sit down with top executives and industry leaders to dive deep into the world of global manufacturing, service companies, non-profits and more. Together, we explore the latest trends, innovations, and the inspiring stories behind the people who drive this dynamic industry forward. Whether you're a seasoned pro or just curious about what makes this world tick, you're in for engaging conversations that go beyond the surface. Let's uncover the fascinating stories and insights that shape the global defense, small arms and shooting sectors. Subscribe now and become a part of our community!
In this episode of HeadHunters NW Podcast, Shaylene sits down with Jim Drager, CEO of the Drager Group, to discuss the intricacies of strategic planning in the firearms industry. Jim shares his extensive experience, from carrying a Remington catalog in Catholic high school to leading strategic initiatives at major firearms companies like Colt and Beretta. They delve into the importance of strategic planning, the automotive industry's impact on firearm manufacturing, and the implications of political environments on the firearms market. The conversation also touches on the benefits and challenges of entering the military and law enforcement markets. Tune in to gain valuable insights on business strategies, market trends, and the future of the firearms industry.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shaylene (00:01):
Well, hello everyone and welcome back to another
episode of HeadHunters NW Podcast.
I am thrilled to haveJim Drager as my guest.
He is the CEO of the Drager Group andI'm going to ask you, Jim, to, if you
don't mind, walk our audience throughyour history, how you got to be in this
(00:21):
industry and the places that you workbecause I know today we, we want to
focus on strategic planning and we'regoing to talk about a lot of things.
With all the new businesses that havecome into the I would even say global
defense, small arms and the shootingsectors, really a lot of new businesses.
(00:43):
There's a lot of these founders andowners that don't have the skill
sets that you and I've talked aboutthat you've helped with a lot.
So.
Let's talk about have the audience herewhat you've done and where you've worked.
I'm sure I could walk throughyour resume But why why do
that when I have the expert?
Jim (01:02):
Well, thank you Shaylene and truly an honor to be here with you you
are probably The second most visibleperson to the industry with only
being succeeded by your dog, George,who knows everybody to meet George.
And anyway, thank you.
It's an honor to, to be here.
(01:23):
It's really an honor to bepart of an industry that I've
always been passionate about it.
I'll just tell you a quick story beforewe get into it, but I went to Catholic
high school and I always in my books,I carried around the Remington catalog,
which back then had everything they madeevery firearm, every bit of clothing and
every load with its ballistics table.
(01:46):
And unfortunately, I spent way more time.
Memorizing the book, you know, the hundredyard trajectory of a 22 Hornet bullet
that I probably did on theology back then.
But anyway, I've been passionateabout it a long time and truly it's
been an honor and a privilege to bein the industry to help the industry
and continue to serve the industry.
(02:07):
Got my start.
Like a lot of people got a degreein college business administration.
Luckily I was smart enough tolisten to a good professor.
I had, who said, you don't know anything.
Now you have a degree.
Now you have the ability to go learn.
And it was, she was right on target.
So I sought some experiences infields outside of my degree because
(02:33):
I did want to be in leadership ormanagement or something like that.
And so I joined an engineeringcompany and became a project manager.
Eventually got involved in sales andmarketing, quality assurance, operations.
And because you really, if you wantto understand how businesses work,
you have to have had time in the seat.
(02:55):
There's just no substitute to studyit to a certain degree, but being
in it, there is just no substitute.
So while they can't say I've doneeverything I have actually had experience
in the accounting world as well.
But I I've had a lot of experiencein those core processes.
that all businesses have,regardless of what degree you're in.
(03:19):
From then back in the early 2000s, Igot involved with consulting and learned
about the consulting as a profession,not as something to do, but the practice
and profession of being a consultant.
And it's not hanging a shingle outside.
As you know, in your own business,you're very consultative.
(03:40):
You know,
Shaylene (03:40):
it does take being in the seat, you know, I, I do agree.
Like, you know, in my, even inmy business, it's, I learned from
you guys all the time, you know,every manufacturing facility I
go to any, even, even, you know,any SAS companies and software,
all, everything has a life cycle.
And even in my own business, it'sjust a smaller scale, but having
(04:03):
done all of my own accounting.
It's the same thing as it's just applyingit to bigger numbers and more complex
things, but I I would not presume to knowhow to counsel businesses on the strategic
planning because you know, I think youand I met I think when you were at colt
Jim (04:23):
Yeah, yeah It was
Shaylene (04:26):
and you've done a lot of you've had a lot of leadership roles
in the industry in manufacturers Andthen also done a lot of consulting.
Jim (04:36):
Yeah, it's it's the My career has really been a true blessing.
As I when I started my own practiceback in the early 2000s, it's
can't believe it's been that long.
My focus really was on strategic planningbecause I had learned the process of
facilitation to take an organizationthrough and develop a strategic plan.
(04:57):
But I also had the background in runningmanufacturing facilities by that point
in my career and again had spent timein a lot of these core processes.
And through the strategic planningfound out that a lot of the companies
I was working with really not onlyneeded helping the planning, but
they couldn't implement the plan.
Shaylene (05:18):
Yeah.
Jim (05:19):
Now you gave them the compass,
Shaylene (05:21):
but
Jim (05:21):
they couldn't get there.
They needed people to help them.
in core role.
So I decided to really focus my practiceon less companies, less customers, but
that I would be perhaps more involvedwith and be more intimate with.
And that could be as few is one at atime or a couple of the time, but to
(05:44):
really impact it versus just doinga lot of strategic plans and luck.
I got involved direct roles.
You know, m a vice presidentof opera find their own.
And o own or whatever that was.
organizational transitions,transformations, turnarounds, startups,
(06:09):
and all of that still that corefocus of, you know, what's the plan?
You know, where are we going?
And so that's been the constant themethroughout my career and has I've been.
Again, my dream job, you know,in high school was to work
for Remington Ammunition.
And, lo and behold, I was actually offereda position in Remington Ammunition.
Shaylene (06:33):
Isn't that something?
Jim (06:35):
And I turned it down, of all things.
Fortunately, Remington was not inthe state of where it needed to
be for me at that point anyway.
Shaylene (06:44):
Yeah.
Jim (06:45):
So, I've been, you know, fortunate to work with.
You know, companies like Colt,Pepperball, Beretta, Century Arms.
I did a lot of work with, but notdirectly for Remington and another
number of other firearms companies.
Just as passionate about today asI was in that little kid who was
staring out the window and dreamingof ballistics and things like that.
(07:08):
Well,
Shaylene (07:09):
it's a fun, it's a fun industry and they're fun products.
You know, we were talking alittle bit off camera last week.
You and I, when we were talking aboutdoing this podcast, there are so many
new companies and I would say young,meaning young companies or also young
(07:29):
people that are starting companiesthat maybe don't have all that business
experience, but they have this great ideaand it's a great business and they've
hired a couple people and they're runninga business, but it can easily get.
spun out of control.
And even if you have the world'sgreatest product, that doesn't
mean that it automaticallyrolls up into a great business.
(07:53):
And, you know, I wanted to do thisbecause I want these, I want people
to know there's help out there.
And it doesn't mean you have to goout and hire an executive full time.
You can get a fractionalexecutive like yourself.
Yeah, and you're not just goingto come in and say, I only
know how to do this one thing.
(08:14):
It's a well rounded.
Hey, let's take a look at the wholeoperation and you know, you might consider
doing this or you might consider doingthat and you can help get them on track
so that they're not wasting their money.
And they're not burning out, right?
Because I'm sure burnout ishuge in these environments.
Jim (08:34):
Especially, and again, I've had the privilege of working in the
industry and outside of the industry.
And I still do a little bitoutside of the industry.
Shaylene (08:41):
Yeah.
Jim (08:43):
And It's this.
The key to this industry is almostalways an emotionally driven industry.
People like me are passionate aboutlike you were passionate about it.
And that's what makes it special.
But that's also can be our Achillesheel is People think they have a better
(09:03):
mousetrap and maybe they do have a bettermousetrap, but does anybody want more mice
caught or mice caught in a different way?
And I learned a great example, a companyI worked with a lot in the early in the
late nineties and into the two thousands.
They actually invented a mechanical heart,
Shaylene (09:22):
the
Jim (09:23):
lion heart.
It was in done in collaboration withPenn state health and it was a left
ventricle assist device and it worked.
It survived clinical trials and it savedlives and it was gonna be the next thing.
But the problem was the medicalcommunity didn't want it.
They wanted heart
Shaylene (09:43):
transplant.
No kidding.
Jim (09:46):
And to this date, they still want heart transplants.
And you know, look at thesuccess with heart transplants.
And now they're even experimenting with3D printed materials and genetically
modified animal hearts and all that.
But, you know, in the ninetiesthey, they actually created this.
And what I really learned throughthat is being an engineering,
(10:08):
entrepreneurially driven company canbe great, but it can also lead to
failure because it's not necessarilytied to what does the market want?
And you and I talked about this,you know, I love going at SHOT
Show or any of the big trade shows.
I love going to the lower level orback areas and see what new products,
(10:32):
what these passionate entrepreneursare coming up with, often in their
garage, often with, you know,putting their houses on the line.
And they do come up with a lot ofinnovation, but you look at it and
then you'll go three booths down.
Somebody else has exactly the same thing.
Or, you know, you look at them and yougo, you know, I think just because you
think you can build, it doesn't mean it'sa great idea to monopolize and all that.
(10:57):
So, yeah, to your point, there's a lot ofit that goes on in this industry, but I
think it starts with that passion, whichis our strength, but it can be our killer.
Shaylene (11:06):
And I think too that I don't want people to that are listening to this
to think that you're A talented persononly for small startup companies because
that's why I was intrigued about doingthis You actually have worked for some of
the largest companies And you can come inand help them with process improvements
(11:26):
And it's that fresh set of eyes and Iknow a lot of executives realize that and
they hire consultants But I think it ishard to find a well rounded consultant
That knows the industry and also there'sa lot of value to having worked in other
industries That you bring to the table.
It's you don't want to onlyhave just one industry.
(11:46):
The value is having a broader view I think
Jim (11:50):
there there really is and one of the mega Trends that I see is
the firearms industry is a laggardindustry in that it doesn't the the new
processes in manufacturing or Technologydon't start here in this industry.
They start someplace else.
Shaylene (12:08):
Yeah.
Jim (12:09):
A lot of times it's coming out of the automotive automotive industry.
And one of the big drivers in the,you know, in the eighties, nineties
was the fact that Japan just tookover the automotive industry and
United States really had to catchup and learn those practices.
And that has permeated throughoutmanufacturing and has made
(12:31):
us better manufacturers.
But it's appalling to me youknow, companies that industry and
I'm not gonn but their inventoryterms in years, not days or wee
(12:51):
Years.
And you wonder why they strugglefinancially, you know, maybe to the
point of bankruptcy and, you know,and, but we've learned that, you know,
through lean manufacturing and, and,you know some good practice like sales
and operations, integrated sales andoperations planning with good market Intel
(13:13):
coming in as real time as you can get it.
Shaylene (13:16):
Yeah.
Jim (13:17):
Well, we've learned that in other industries and it's.
And it's coming intothe firearms industry.
So we're a laggard industry.
in many areas.
So it really does benefit, at leastfor me and I think the industry
to have those other experiences.
And I, you know, in a former life, Iworked with a lot of large companies in
the automotive space, GM, Volvo, companieslike that and Cummins, Mac, Caterpillar
(13:42):
and learned a tremendous amount from them.
That certainly is applicableto the firearms space.
Shaylene (13:48):
Well, we, we didn't talk about this.
So maybe this is a loaded question, butI, I, if you feel comfortable, I'm curious
as to, there's a common complaint inthe industry about, Oh, those automotive
people, they don't understand our world.
Look at what they wreckedand blah, blah, blah.
And I don't think that's specificto one person or a group of people,
(14:10):
but it is a common thing thatyou hear inside our industry.
So since we brought it up and I doagree with you that the manufacturing
has benefited from the automotivesystems, what are the, are there
other things that the automotiveindustry doesn't quite align with?
I mean, how does that come intoplay when you're talking about
(14:32):
industry filled with passion?
Because I'm sure there's tons ofautomotive engineers that are passionate.
How do those things jive?
Jim (14:40):
Well, I think the core processes are the same.
They are, you know, it's, it's, it'slike a heartbeat on a person that, you
know, the hearts are hearts of heart.
But what I think is different is thespeed of innovation in automotive is,
is light years faster than in firearms.
And I think that's somethingthat you know, we haven't really
(15:04):
evolved the smokeless cartridge.
in 120 years since it's, it's invention.
It's pretty much the same thing.
Shaylene (15:12):
Yeah.
Jim (15:15):
Have we, you know, evolved, you know, how we launch that projectile?
Yes, but not much, really.
There's been innovation on the opticsside, but if you look in the automotive
world, they not only know what modelthey're launching this year and.
You know, Toyota can design from scratchto first unit off the line in a year.
(15:39):
You know, a car, the firearmsindustry, it's like three years
and it's a way less complex item.
Shaylene (15:46):
Yeah.
Way less.
Why does it take us that long?
Do you think, what are the hangupsthat happen in that design process?
Is that engineers that are designingproducts that we don't really need and
we don't stop them soon enough, or,you know, not on you engineers at all.
Jim (16:03):
I think it really goes to the very top of the companies.
Shaylene (16:06):
A
Jim (16:07):
company has to realize that speed matters.
It's just a speed to market and beingin tune with the marketplace matters.
It doesn't matter if it's firearms.
It doesn't matter if it's cars.
So the firearms world looks atit like, yeah, the car guys are
changing their models every year.
Well, yeah, they have to becausetheir competition does, the archery
(16:30):
industry gets it really well.
Like they obsolete their bows prettymuch every year and they create a, a
passion every year for the new bow.
They are really good at it.
Shaylene (16:41):
I don't think I knew that.
I didn't tie that together.
That's interesting.
Oh,
Jim (16:45):
it's, and it is interesting and it goes to that this is
such an emotionally driven.
industry, like you're an archer and youneed the newest bow because it's 335 feet
per second and your old bow was only 320.
It really doesn't matterthat much to the deer.
It really doesn't.
But to the hunter, it's like you'reconstantly looking to upgrade and these
(17:07):
bows are expensive and they're hightech and the archery industry gets it.
The automotive industry gets it.
The Remington 870 is stillin production after 60 years.
Right,
Shaylene (17:20):
right.
The 1100,
Jim (17:22):
you know, and that's just Remington and a lot of these core
arms are still pretty much the same.
Now, of course we do have some innovation.
A lot of the Italians have broughtsome really great products.
You know, south American companies,Turkish companies, and some of
them are making fantastic products.
Yeah.
(17:43):
So you know, back to youroriginal question, I actually
would argue stronger that.
The more we think firearms isa unique animal, the more we
think that to our own demise.
Shaylene (17:54):
Interesting.
That's great feedback.
It's hard to argue that
Jim (17:59):
there's a lot of Turkish companies jumping into the space.
Everybody sees it, and they're makingsome Now there's some less than high
quality products, but a lot of themare really high quality products
produced in world class facilitiesthat are making arms for NATO.
These are world class facilities andthose facilities are following the same
(18:19):
practices as any other world class.
Manufacturing facility with, withtheir quality standards, with their
technology that they use to ensurequality and their innovation.
And they're jumping into thespace and look at the result,
you know you don't have to look.
Yeah.
They're
Shaylene (18:34):
selling a lot of firearms.
Jim (18:37):
They are.
And if you look at the percentageof the firearms that are now sold.
in the U.
S.
by companies that don'thave their roots in the U.
S.
It's the vast majority now.
Shaylene (18:49):
Yes, that's right.
I looked at those the other day.
It was surprising.
So what, what do you think that ourfirearms businesses, and when we're
talking about strategic planning, Whatare some ways that strategic planning
really makes a big difference or animpact to their bottom line because if
they're, you know, if you're in charge ofa P& L or a division or you're an owner,
(19:12):
you know, all of it sounds great, butthe first thing you think of is, oh, my
God, if I had the money for that, I'd dothis or, You know, how, how do we make
that strategic planning pay for itself?
Because I know it does.
I know it does.
But I, I'm not an expert andwouldn't know how to label that.
Jim (19:30):
Well, strategic planning does two things.
It stops you from doing things that arenot aligned with where you should go.
And that saves you, that cansave your company right there.
And it also makes sure thatyour investments are absolutely
aligned with where you're goingand that so it does both that
(19:52):
eliminates the wrong investments.
It makes you invest properlywhere you need to go.
So, as an example, you knowthere's different ways to
differentiate your company.
You've differentiated yourselfbecause you give high, un,
high touch, unrivaled service.
I know it.
I've known you long enough.
(20:13):
I can see that's my goal,
, Shaylene: that's my goal.
That's why you're doing your podcast.
So if you decide that, that's howyou're gonna differentiate yourself
and that's your strategic plan.
you're not all of a sudden going to offerlow prices or the lowest price, or that
you're going to offer some other, youknow, kind of service that's not in line
(20:34):
with your way of differentiating yourself.
And the same thing happens in a business.
If they're going to differentiatethemselves on service, well, then they
have to be aligned and have great service.
If they're going to differentiatethemselves based upon new innovative
products, well, then you're goingto have to invest in engineering,
but then what are those products?
(20:55):
And because that can getout of hand very quickly.
And again, that's what strategicplanning does is makes sure that you're
making the right investments and not.
Making the wrong investments.
So in and of itself, I usually find thatcompanies and leadership are faced and
looking in the mirror like, oh my God,we're gonna have to stop doing what we've
(21:16):
been doing 'cause it doesn't matter.
Shaylene (21:18):
Yeah.
And
Jim (21:18):
they kind of already know it mostly.
But it forces them to put thaton paper and make a commitment
to making those hard choices.
I
Shaylene (21:27):
think an outside consultant, you know, I mean, I have hired people to
say, okay, come in and take a look at thiscircus that I'm running and tell me what
you see, you know, because when you'rein it every day, it's really hard to see.
And after a while it just getsto be, it's, I think it's just a
good business management to bringin a consultant once in a while.
(21:49):
If nothing else to justsay, what am I missing?
What do I not see?
Because you're.
You're right in the thick of it every day.
There's even if you're the best CEO inthe world and the best board member,
that's all great, but to bring anoutside consultant and they see things
differently than we see them every day.
Jim (22:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
And a strategic plan.
It's not just a plan.
It's not just a document.
It's a process as part of that processis, again, you know, what's your mission?
Why do you exist?
That's what the missionreally does for you.
You know, what's your vision?
What do you want to look like asyou're trying to achieve your mission?
(22:28):
What's your strategies?
How are you going to get from where you'reat to what you want to be, which is your
vision and the strategies define that.
Thank you.
And once you have that definition,of course, all the supporting actions
and the action plans and the budgetsthat go along with that, now you've
got something that you can turn intoa process, a core process that, that
(22:53):
every month or whatever period offrequency you need, that you can look
back and say, how are we doing on that?
Are we just mired in the let's getall the product out the door to
make the monthly shipments goals?
But are we actuallylooking at the compass?
Are we looking at you know, what ourstrategic plan is supposed to be?
and Even more specificallyin this industry.
(23:16):
One of the things that I reallyfocus on is do These companies
have any kind of a sales andoperations process, an SNOP process?
Hmm.
Where you're looking out at in termsof innovation and saying, you know,
next year at shot show, shot showis a great thing for our industry.
Shaylene (23:36):
Yeah.
For.
Jim (23:37):
Not only the commercial firearms for the hunter side of it that, you know,
that side of it, but, but also for thelaw enforcement for the military side.
Shaylene (23:46):
Yeah.
Jim (23:47):
It forces you, you have a, you have a window of opportunity
that happens every year.
It's not sneaking up on you.
Shaylene (23:53):
Yeah.
Right.
Jim (23:54):
So you should already have a roadmap of what are you going
to release in two to three years?
If that's your problem about developmentcycle, what's that going to look like?
And if you don't have that, Youare already set up for failure for
SHOT Show 28 because you're, you'renot going to be ready on time.
(24:15):
And you probably,
Shaylene (24:17):
that's a big commitment, not only manpower and finances,
but it's a missed opportunity.
It's like going to SHOT Show andnot, In my opinion, not sending any
press releases out and not makingthose connections ahead of time.
And you really do haveto plan way in advance.
And I don't know, I don't likesurprises and which is really
(24:38):
crazy if you think about being anentrepreneur or business owner.
But that is one thing that I havereally tried to work on and improve is.
I don't like surprises because it's,it just, it bungs up my whole finance
plan or, or anything that I've got goingon because I'm such a small company.
So to plan out those thingsmakes good sense to me.
(25:01):
It doesn't mean you can always doit, but it seems like if I were a
company right now that was getting,you know, really getting going in
the industry, man, I would feel likeI should light a fire underneath
myself because you have three years.
You know, before you have anotherpresident come in and if you don't know
that we're on we're cyclical based onpolitics, then you are going to learn
(25:24):
a really hard lesson at some point.
Jim (25:26):
Yeah, and that gets back to that sales and operations planning process.
And I'll give you a good example of that.
And then I do want to talk about ourcurrent environment because it's got lots
of positive and negative forces going on.
And that
Shaylene (25:39):
was going to be my next question.
Yeah.
Jim (25:41):
Companies really need to do it.
But one of the, one of the success storiesthat I was able to participate in with
a major firearms manufacturer, I won'tmention the name, but we almost doubled
sales in one year and the way we did it.
Was after I had joined up right aroundthe time of shot show came in and it was a
(26:02):
disaster it was Yeah, it was like being atthe Bronx Zoo Like literally the engineers
were gluing together products to get themonto the wall to display and and I would
say so When's that gonna be ready to sell?
They're like, oh, it's notready to sell What's the point?
Yeah in one year's time We had so weliterally met two weeks after shot show
(26:28):
and we made a decision These are theproducts that will be not only that
we're displaying at shot show But we'llbe ready for sale and have inventory
available at shot show to the hustleWhere we brought in our customer service
team and they were in the back of thebooth live into the erp system And when
(26:50):
a customer said, that's really cool.
I like that.
I'd like to order some.
I said, let me introduce you to so and so.
And we took them around and theyput their orders in at SHOT Show.
Shaylene (27:02):
Wow.
Now I love hearing that.
Jim (27:05):
And that's what I mean about having a plan, having an integrated
sales and operations process.
And again, this environment thatwe're in now is, is I'm excited
about it, but you better be carefulbecause we have Lots of counter
forces going on and you better know.
Which one and how they're goingto, you know, what they are and how
(27:28):
they're going to affect your business.
Shaylene (27:29):
This isn't going to be like Trump's, the last presidential run.
This is different.
I mean, this is different.
This is different.
And I think that I really do.
I really want to get into this.
Cause I think this is superimportant for our listeners and this.
This is, I mean, this, thank you, Jim.
I mean, I'm not, I'm not even paying youfor your expertise and I feel bad now
(27:50):
because I should have paid you becausethis is the real valuable stuff here.
And when we talked, I told you there wasa company that in October I'd had called
me about a role and they said, we needto find a X, this person in marketing.
I said, okay, great.
But tell me more aboutwhat that looks like.
(28:11):
What's your plan for theupcoming election in November?
If Trump wins, what's your plan?
If Kamala Harris wins, what's your plan?
And they didn't have one.
And I said, now then I don'tthink if I were you, I would hire
anyone until you have a plan.
Because there's a big differencein our world, generally speaking,
(28:35):
the political environment.
So, I would love for you to kind of giveyour thoughts on what do you look for
and how do you plan for the unplannable?
Because that's prettymuch what we live through.
Jim (28:46):
Yeah, especially in our industry at large.
So I'm going to back up a littlebit and just use this as a point of
reference to when Trump got elected.
You know, eight years ago we wentthrough something called the Trump Slump.
Shaylene (29:02):
Yeah.
Jim (29:02):
Anybody who's been in the industry remembers it.
It was minus 24%.
And leading up to theelection it was go-go.
In fact, I was interviewed on, I forgetwho it was, not gun talk, but one of the.
Shot show shop floor people walking aroundand they asked me what the what was my
opinion of You know barack obama versustrump and I said, I think barack obama
(29:25):
loves guns and they said you're kiddingI said well i'll summarize it every time
he opens his mouth gun sales went up
Shaylene (29:33):
So
Jim (29:33):
he's a smart guy and he kept talking and gun sales kept going up.
I could only draw the conclusionThat he liked guns, and gun sales.
Shaylene (29:42):
Yeah, but the
Jim (29:43):
point of it is it's an emotionally driven market It's not
logically driven, not by and large.
And I'm sure that, you know, there's
Shaylene (29:51):
Yeah.
Jim (29:51):
You know, instances where it's both, but by and large it's emotionally driven.
How many guns do we really need?
I have lots of guns.
I don't need no guns.
Shaylene (30:02):
All of mine got lost on a boat that sank.
I don't know, I
, Jim: but for me, I have lots of them.
Yeah, I don't
Jim (30:10):
need more, but I want more.
Shaylene (30:12):
Right.
And well, it's an emotional purchase.
I mean, you see thenewest thing and I go out.
We go to NRA and Dwayne,my husband looks at us.
He goes, Oh, you got to see this rifle.
Well, we walked out.
We bought two can't just have onein my house, but you're right.
I mean, you don't needthem, but you want them.
So that to me, that's the difference inthe automotive industry in some ways.
(30:35):
Right.
Unless you're a car collector or you'reof a specific niche you're focused on.
You buy a car because you need it.
Jim (30:43):
Yeah, and you know, there's certainly a lot of, hey, I want it, I
don't really need it, but firearms is waymore that way, and so we had the Trump
slump, and what it really taught us was,That the market will calm down and go,
whew, they're not gonna take our guns.
Yeah.
Shaylene (30:58):
So
Jim (30:59):
we are definitely gonna go through that.
But I like to look at things, Icall it like a force field analysis.
So you've got, you know, negative forcespushing down on a market, and you have
positive forces pushing up on the market.
So what are the negativeforces that are gonna cause our
market to retract and again.
In a certain instance where you've gota niche product that people need or
(31:21):
something of that may not respond tothese forces or maybe respond more.
Yeah.
But so it's very, youknow, people feel safer.
They just do, yeah.
They did not feel safe.
We had riots, you know, we had, youknow, cities burning, we had defund
the police, we had all these things.
Yeah.
Also, during
Shaylene (31:41):
Biden's reign.
Yeah,
Jim (31:43):
you're under, I'm in the eastern shore of Virginia.
We had a lot of people exitingBaltimore, Washington coming
over here because it's safe.
So it's, it's, it was realin terms of its effects.
So people are going tofeel safe under Trump.
I think so.
I think most people would agree with that.
We're probably going tosee a slackening of that.
(32:03):
Trump's promise to end wars now, will he?
I'd like to think so.
But the war in Ukraine and the war in theMiddle East are consuming resources that
are exactly the same resources that weuse for domestic firearms, metals, copper,
lead powder, as as a tangible example.
(32:25):
Of that, those wars.
They just announced Alliant Powders canhave a, a 10% increase on its powder.
Why is that?
There's not a lot of powder manufacturers.
You can't build powdermanufacturing plants quickly.
They take decades to build becauseenvironmental and safety and
all that, and they're not justgoing to make the investment.
(32:47):
So just because a war spikes up doesn'tmean they can ramp the production.
Shaylene (32:51):
Right?
Right.
So spices
Jim (32:52):
go up.
So if the wars end.
And that's going to have asoftening of those materials.
So as an example, and Ihappened to buy this yesterday.
We're already seeing ammo availability.
Here's just a standard.
I bought it at Walmart, gota pretty good price on it.
It's a good load.
(33:13):
I assure you during ammoshortages, I couldn't get them.
Right, right.
No, we
Shaylene (33:18):
definitely, it is amazing how our industry, it just moves and
flexes just with the blink of aneye, which is important about this
strategic planning, because whenyou're doing that, do you plan for.
situation 3 and then have backup plansbecause you can't plan for everything.
Jim (33:40):
Well, the, the factors that cause it to go up and down while, you know,
who knows when some, when a terroristis going to cause a, an event and next
thing you know, we're embroiled inanother, we, you can't predict that.
But, you know, theeffect of Trump on wars.
Yeah, we can, we can takea pretty good stab at that.
(34:00):
And what does that mean?
We know what that looks like.
We know that, you know, gun sales havebeen declining the last couple of years.
We know that.
We, I would say with Trump in office,it's probably going to continue.
So, so these are, you can identifya lot of them, certainly not all
of 'em, and that's what strategicplanning forces you to do.
(34:22):
And then put that into your salesand operations planning, which should
become almost a weekly practice.
You know, relative to backto, Hey, this year we're going
to introduce these models.
We think we're going to sell 12,000 of them, a thousand a month, or
are we on track to sell a thousand,make and sell a thousand a month.
I'm oversimplifying it to make the point,but that's where large companies fail.
(34:47):
And I'll give you one realtangible example of this.
I learned this again in the Trumpslump a couple of years ago, major,
like if you're And you want to sellthose shotgun shells and you can't
get them during a a tight economywhere, where you just can't get ammo.
You place exactly that same orderwith federal, with Winchester, with
(35:11):
Remington, with Fiocchi, with whoever,you know, because you need to sell them.
And when the lead times are longand the manufacturers aren't
making, you place that same order.
So that demand is fake.
You may say, oh my gosh,you know, we have an order.
You don't necessarily have an order.
It's whoever fills that order first.
(35:32):
And that's a good point.
And the unwise companies, and thishappens a lot, end up saying, oh my
gosh, I got this big order from Cabela'sand not that I'm not cabella, right.
But they don't realize if it's acancelable order, is it really an order?
Shaylene (35:48):
Right.
Jim (35:49):
Again, that's where strategic planning, looking at the various forces
that may affect your business are makinga plan and being conservative on a
conservative side and really watchingyour inventories and your commitment and
your commitments for incoming materials.
is where your fiscal health is goingto, you know reside ultimately.
Shaylene (36:13):
And being conservative on your planning and your forecasting does
not mean that you're not optimistic.
No, I do.
I think that people,you know, I don't want.
people to go away from thisthinking, oh, this is a downer.
It's not a downer, it's a positive thing.
No, the sooner you get on strategicplanning and really take a look at stuff,
(36:35):
the better you're gonna be because youmay have your most profitable years.
are likely going to be theyears that aren't insane.
Jim (36:43):
Yeah.
And, and we all know justbecause it's down now, it's
not going to stay down long.
There are forces pushing us up.
Our floor constantly gets raised.
We have more female shooters than ever.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Continuing to grow.
It's proliferating in the products.
(37:05):
It's proliferating in the opportunities.
It is common for women.
to be hunting now.
It wasn't common a generation ago.
Shaylene (37:15):
That's right.
We have
Jim (37:15):
more youth shooters as an example and more youth shooting opportunities.
If you look at even just huntingopportunities to take the state of
Pennsylvania, one of the largesthunting sales states, one of the largest
hunting bases, gun bases, whatever thenumber of seasons that are available
to the hunter now starts in lateSeptember and goes through January.
(37:39):
It used to be and rifle.
Now it's muzzl bow.
You can still do trad isin line muzzle loader.
So all of a sudden I like I needfive new weapons w I only had one.
(38:02):
So there
shooting sports themselveshooting is real.
There's and a lot of technology i
That's being invested.
So to your point, this is actuallya great time, but it's a great time
to knuckle down, get your plans.
(38:23):
Yeah.
Make sure you're safe fiscally sound,and get ready because the, the,
the next wave is gonna come and youwant to be able to ride it and not.
you know, and not just sit backand do nothing because that's
where you will get caught.
Shaylene (38:36):
Yeah.
If you sit back and do nothing, yourcompetition has already beaten you
because they're, they're alreadyin innovating in your sleep.
That's been my business mantra isdon't sleep because you, you have
to keep ahead of your competition.
It doesn't matter what the business is.
I do want to touch on one more thingthat we didn't talk about ahead of time.
(38:57):
When you're looking at the industryas a whole, Do you think it's wise or
are there opportunities to diversify?
And how do you feel about companiesbeing only in the commercial space?
We call commercial the people likeme who go to Cabela's or wherever
and buy their things, the dealers.
But are there companies that can orshould be into military law enforcement?
(39:25):
you know, government sales, would thathelp them level out their playing field?
And what's the pluses and minuses of that?
Because those are all differentbuying seasons and different products.
Jim (39:38):
Yeah, there's a lot of a lure to getting involved in the
military and law enforcement.
There is and it is a great marketand once you're in it, you're in it.
It's hard to, it's hard tochange away from your product.
As an example of your productson an officer's duty belt.
(39:59):
Well, that officer does not makethe decision to, Oh, I don't
want to use that flashlight.
I'm going to go buy my own.
No, no, no, no, no.
That's those are big decisionsthat are made at a higher level.
And once you're in, you're in.
The barrier to entry is massive
Shaylene (40:16):
and daunting.
Jim (40:17):
And if you think it's long, it's four times longer.
And everybody wants to get in there.
And my counsel has always been is makesure that you are fiscally sound and
that you are able to make a longterm.
And when I say longterm five to 10year investment to break that market
you may have a better mousetrap.
(40:37):
You may really have a better mousetrap,but a short sales cycle is the law
enforcement's a little faster thanmilitary, unless you happen to
get in with some branch of specialforces that can do their own thing.
And they are out there,but everybody's after them.
Shaylene (40:52):
Right.
Jim (40:53):
But it's three years, but typically it's going to be a five to 10 year
investment if you're successful.
Shaylene (40:59):
And you're competing with other brands.
I mean, these are all, there's aprocess to go through to get approved
on the military list, but it does have,you know, and that was my question.
If you, if you front loaded all that,and if you could do that, if you said,
this is one of my long term strategicgoals and you, you set up for that, then
(41:21):
wouldn't that help your company, youknow, navigate this up and down more?
Jim (41:26):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It is worthwhile.
But again, you have to have the financialhealth to make those investments with
zero return for five to ten years.
Wow.
And, and not get swayed offof it and say, no, we, we are
going to break into that market.
And again, if you're successful,it's, it's five years on the short.
(41:48):
And it may be never, but if youreally have a better mouse trap
and you're doing the right things,it, it can be a great market.
And then once you're in.
My God, look at Colt.
Like they're still in there with the M16 after all those, you know, since 47.
So it can be a great long run and agood part of a long term strategy.
(42:08):
So that's an excellent point.
Shaylene (42:10):
Yeah.
Okay.
That's good information.
Well, thank you for this, Jim.
What a
talking for like another hour.
But I don't, my poor listeners,I usually do a shorter one.
I knew this was gonna be longerand I, it was, it's a struggle to
even end it because there's so manythings that I want people to know.
That you have experience in I guess i'lljust encourage our listeners to if you're
(42:35):
not sure You know if you could use aconsultant or if you've got a project,
you know, reach out to jim his contactinformation There'll be a link on the
Spotify and youtube and iheart radio andapple podcasts wherever you find this
and on our website But I would reallyencourage you to think about reaching out
(42:58):
to Jim and seeing, Hey, what do you think?
Is this a project you're interested in?
Because it just, I, it all, it justpays for itself, honestly, because
not doing something stupid could saveyour company and getting someone with
a set of eyes on it and go, well, youcould do this, or here's an idea here.
It just makes all the difference.
Jim (43:19):
Well, Shaylene, thank you.
It's been an honor andalways enjoy your presence.
Never get enough time with you.
And thank you so much for thehonor of being on your podcast.
And you're the best for the industry.
You really, you reallyhave us at your heart.
You do such a great job.
So thank you for all you do.
Shaylene (43:35):
You are my people.
I don't know what I'd do without you guys.
You guys fill my soulmore than I can even say.
So thank you, Jim.
And thank you for listening toHeadHunters NW podcast until next time.
Thank you.
Jim (43:49):
Thank you.
Well, hello everyone and welcome back to another
episode of HeadHunters NW Podcast.
I am thrilled to haveJim Drager as my guest.
He is the CEO of the Drager Group andI'm going to ask you, Jim, to, if you
don't mind, walk our audience throughyour history, how you got to be in this
(00:21):
industry and the places that you workbecause I know today we, we want to
focus on strategic planning and we'regoing to talk about a lot of things.
With all the new businesses that havecome into the I would even say global
defense, small arms and the shootingsectors, really a lot of new businesses.
(00:43):
There's a lot of these founders andowners that don't have the skill
sets that you and I've talked aboutthat you've helped with a lot.
So.
Let's talk about have the audience herewhat you've done and where you've worked.
I'm sure I could walk throughyour resume But why why do
that when I have the expert?
Jim (01:02):
Well, thank you Shaylene and truly an honor to be here with you you
are probably The second most visibleperson to the industry with only
being succeeded by your dog, George,who knows everybody to meet George.
And anyway, thank you.
It's an honor to, to be here.
(01:23):
It's really an honor to bepart of an industry that I've
always been passionate about it.
I'll just tell you a quick story beforewe get into it, but I went to Catholic
high school and I always in my books,I carried around the Remington catalog,
which back then had everything they madeevery firearm, every bit of clothing and
every load with its ballistics table.
(01:46):
And unfortunately, I spent way more time.
Memorizing the book, you know, the hundredyard trajectory of a 22 Hornet bullet
that I probably did on theology back then.
But anyway, I've been passionateabout it a long time and truly it's
been an honor and a privilege to bein the industry to help the industry
and continue to serve the industry.
(02:07):
Got my start.
Like a lot of people got a degreein college business administration.
Luckily I was smart enough tolisten to a good professor.
I had, who said, you don't know anything.
Now you have a degree.
Now you have the ability to go learn.
And it was, she was right on target.
So I sought some experiences infields outside of my degree because
(02:33):
I did want to be in leadership ormanagement or something like that.
And so I joined an engineeringcompany and became a project manager.
Eventually got involved in sales andmarketing, quality assurance, operations.
And because you really, if you wantto understand how businesses work,
you have to have had time in the seat.
(02:55):
There's just no substitute to studyit to a certain degree, but being
in it, there is just no substitute.
So while they can't say I've doneeverything I have actually had experience
in the accounting world as well.
But I I've had a lot of experiencein those core processes.
that all businesses have,regardless of what degree you're in.
(03:19):
From then back in the early 2000s, Igot involved with consulting and learned
about the consulting as a profession,not as something to do, but the practice
and profession of being a consultant.
And it's not hanging a shingle outside.
As you know, in your own business,you're very consultative.
(03:40):
You know,
Shaylene (03:40):
it does take being in the seat, you know, I, I do agree.
Like, you know, in my, even inmy business, it's, I learned from
you guys all the time, you know,every manufacturing facility I
go to any, even, even, you know,any SAS companies and software,
all, everything has a life cycle.
And even in my own business, it'sjust a smaller scale, but having
(04:03):
done all of my own accounting.
It's the same thing as it's just applyingit to bigger numbers and more complex
things, but I I would not presume to knowhow to counsel businesses on the strategic
planning because you know, I think youand I met I think when you were at colt
Jim (04:23):
Yeah, yeah It was
Shaylene (04:26):
and you've done a lot of you've had a lot of leadership roles
in the industry in manufacturers Andthen also done a lot of consulting.
Jim (04:36):
Yeah, it's it's the My career has really been a true blessing.
As I when I started my own practiceback in the early 2000s, it's
can't believe it's been that long.
My focus really was on strategic planningbecause I had learned the process of
facilitation to take an organizationthrough and develop a strategic plan.
(04:57):
But I also had the background in runningmanufacturing facilities by that point
in my career and again had spent timein a lot of these core processes.
And through the strategic planningfound out that a lot of the companies
I was working with really not onlyneeded helping the planning, but
they couldn't implement the plan.
Shaylene (05:18):
Yeah.
Jim (05:19):
Now you gave them the compass,
Shaylene (05:21):
but
Jim (05:21):
they couldn't get there.
They needed people to help them.
in core role.
So I decided to really focus my practiceon less companies, less customers, but
that I would be perhaps more involvedwith and be more intimate with.
And that could be as few is one at atime or a couple of the time, but to
(05:44):
really impact it versus just doinga lot of strategic plans and luck.
I got involved direct roles.
You know, m a vice presidentof opera find their own.
And o own or whatever that was.
organizational transitions,transformations, turnarounds, startups,
(06:09):
and all of that still that corefocus of, you know, what's the plan?
You know, where are we going?
And so that's been the constant themethroughout my career and has I've been.
Again, my dream job, you know,in high school was to work
for Remington Ammunition.
And, lo and behold, I was actually offereda position in Remington Ammunition.
Shaylene (06:33):
Isn't that something?
Jim (06:35):
And I turned it down, of all things.
Fortunately, Remington was not inthe state of where it needed to
be for me at that point anyway.
Shaylene (06:44):
Yeah.
Jim (06:45):
So, I've been, you know, fortunate to work with.
You know, companies like Colt,Pepperball, Beretta, Century Arms.
I did a lot of work with, but notdirectly for Remington and another
number of other firearms companies.
Just as passionate about today asI was in that little kid who was
staring out the window and dreamingof ballistics and things like that.
(07:08):
Well,
Shaylene (07:09):
it's a fun, it's a fun industry and they're fun products.
You know, we were talking alittle bit off camera last week.
You and I, when we were talking aboutdoing this podcast, there are so many
new companies and I would say young,meaning young companies or also young
(07:29):
people that are starting companiesthat maybe don't have all that business
experience, but they have this great ideaand it's a great business and they've
hired a couple people and they're runninga business, but it can easily get.
spun out of control.
And even if you have the world'sgreatest product, that doesn't
mean that it automaticallyrolls up into a great business.
(07:53):
And, you know, I wanted to do thisbecause I want these, I want people
to know there's help out there.
And it doesn't mean you have to goout and hire an executive full time.
You can get a fractionalexecutive like yourself.
Yeah, and you're not just goingto come in and say, I only
know how to do this one thing.
(08:14):
It's a well rounded.
Hey, let's take a look at the wholeoperation and you know, you might consider
doing this or you might consider doingthat and you can help get them on track
so that they're not wasting their money.
And they're not burning out, right?
Because I'm sure burnout ishuge in these environments.
Jim (08:34):
Especially, and again, I've had the privilege of working in the
industry and outside of the industry.
And I still do a little bitoutside of the industry.
Shaylene (08:41):
Yeah.
Jim (08:43):
And It's this.
The key to this industry is almostalways an emotionally driven industry.
People like me are passionate aboutlike you were passionate about it.
And that's what makes it special.
But that's also can be our Achillesheel is People think they have a better
(09:03):
mousetrap and maybe they do have a bettermousetrap, but does anybody want more mice
caught or mice caught in a different way?
And I learned a great example, a companyI worked with a lot in the early in the
late nineties and into the two thousands.
They actually invented a mechanical heart,
Shaylene (09:22):
the
Jim (09:23):
lion heart.
It was in done in collaboration withPenn state health and it was a left
ventricle assist device and it worked.
It survived clinical trials and it savedlives and it was gonna be the next thing.
But the problem was the medicalcommunity didn't want it.
They wanted heart
Shaylene (09:43):
transplant.
No kidding.
Jim (09:46):
And to this date, they still want heart transplants.
And you know, look at thesuccess with heart transplants.
And now they're even experimenting with3D printed materials and genetically
modified animal hearts and all that.
But, you know, in the ninetiesthey, they actually created this.
And what I really learned throughthat is being an engineering,
(10:08):
entrepreneurially driven company canbe great, but it can also lead to
failure because it's not necessarilytied to what does the market want?
And you and I talked about this,you know, I love going at SHOT
Show or any of the big trade shows.
I love going to the lower level orback areas and see what new products,
(10:32):
what these passionate entrepreneursare coming up with, often in their
garage, often with, you know,putting their houses on the line.
And they do come up with a lot ofinnovation, but you look at it and
then you'll go three booths down.
Somebody else has exactly the same thing.
Or, you know, you look at them and yougo, you know, I think just because you
think you can build, it doesn't mean it'sa great idea to monopolize and all that.
(10:57):
So, yeah, to your point, there's a lot ofit that goes on in this industry, but I
think it starts with that passion, whichis our strength, but it can be our killer.
Shaylene (11:06):
And I think too that I don't want people to that are listening to this
to think that you're A talented persononly for small startup companies because
that's why I was intrigued about doingthis You actually have worked for some of
the largest companies And you can come inand help them with process improvements
(11:26):
And it's that fresh set of eyes and Iknow a lot of executives realize that and
they hire consultants But I think it ishard to find a well rounded consultant
That knows the industry and also there'sa lot of value to having worked in other
industries That you bring to the table.
It's you don't want to onlyhave just one industry.
(11:46):
The value is having a broader view I think
Jim (11:50):
there there really is and one of the mega Trends that I see is
the firearms industry is a laggardindustry in that it doesn't the the new
processes in manufacturing or Technologydon't start here in this industry.
They start someplace else.
Shaylene (12:08):
Yeah.
Jim (12:09):
A lot of times it's coming out of the automotive automotive industry.
And one of the big drivers in the,you know, in the eighties, nineties
was the fact that Japan just tookover the automotive industry and
United States really had to catchup and learn those practices.
And that has permeated throughoutmanufacturing and has made
(12:31):
us better manufacturers.
But it's appalling to me youknow, companies that industry and
I'm not gonn but their inventoryterms in years, not days or wee
(12:51):
Years.
And you wonder why they strugglefinancially, you know, maybe to the
point of bankruptcy and, you know,and, but we've learned that, you know,
through lean manufacturing and, and,you know some good practice like sales
and operations, integrated sales andoperations planning with good market Intel
(13:13):
coming in as real time as you can get it.
Shaylene (13:16):
Yeah.
Jim (13:17):
Well, we've learned that in other industries and it's.
And it's coming intothe firearms industry.
So we're a laggard industry.
in many areas.
So it really does benefit, at leastfor me and I think the industry
to have those other experiences.
And I, you know, in a former life, Iworked with a lot of large companies in
the automotive space, GM, Volvo, companieslike that and Cummins, Mac, Caterpillar
(13:42):
and learned a tremendous amount from them.
That certainly is applicableto the firearms space.
Shaylene (13:48):
Well, we, we didn't talk about this.
So maybe this is a loaded question, butI, I, if you feel comfortable, I'm curious
as to, there's a common complaint inthe industry about, Oh, those automotive
people, they don't understand our world.
Look at what they wreckedand blah, blah, blah.
And I don't think that's specificto one person or a group of people,
(14:10):
but it is a common thing thatyou hear inside our industry.
So since we brought it up and I doagree with you that the manufacturing
has benefited from the automotivesystems, what are the, are there
other things that the automotiveindustry doesn't quite align with?
I mean, how does that come intoplay when you're talking about
(14:32):
industry filled with passion?
Because I'm sure there's tons ofautomotive engineers that are passionate.
How do those things jive?
Jim (14:40):
Well, I think the core processes are the same.
They are, you know, it's, it's, it'slike a heartbeat on a person that, you
know, the hearts are hearts of heart.
But what I think is different is thespeed of innovation in automotive is,
is light years faster than in firearms.
And I think that's somethingthat you know, we haven't really
(15:04):
evolved the smokeless cartridge.
in 120 years since it's, it's invention.
It's pretty much the same thing.
Shaylene (15:12):
Yeah.
Jim (15:15):
Have we, you know, evolved, you know, how we launch that projectile?
Yes, but not much, really.
There's been innovation on the opticsside, but if you look in the automotive
world, they not only know what modelthey're launching this year and.
You know, Toyota can design from scratchto first unit off the line in a year.
(15:39):
You know, a car, the firearmsindustry, it's like three years
and it's a way less complex item.
Shaylene (15:46):
Yeah.
Way less.
Why does it take us that long?
Do you think, what are the hangupsthat happen in that design process?
Is that engineers that are designingproducts that we don't really need and
we don't stop them soon enough, or,you know, not on you engineers at all.
Jim (16:03):
I think it really goes to the very top of the companies.
Shaylene (16:06):
A
Jim (16:07):
company has to realize that speed matters.
It's just a speed to market and beingin tune with the marketplace matters.
It doesn't matter if it's firearms.
It doesn't matter if it's cars.
So the firearms world looks atit like, yeah, the car guys are
changing their models every year.
Well, yeah, they have to becausetheir competition does, the archery
(16:30):
industry gets it really well.
Like they obsolete their bows prettymuch every year and they create a, a
passion every year for the new bow.
They are really good at it.
Shaylene (16:41):
I don't think I knew that.
I didn't tie that together.
That's interesting.
Oh,
Jim (16:45):
it's, and it is interesting and it goes to that this is
such an emotionally driven.
industry, like you're an archer and youneed the newest bow because it's 335 feet
per second and your old bow was only 320.
It really doesn't matterthat much to the deer.
It really doesn't.
But to the hunter, it's like you'reconstantly looking to upgrade and these
(17:07):
bows are expensive and they're hightech and the archery industry gets it.
The automotive industry gets it.
The Remington 870 is stillin production after 60 years.
Right,
Shaylene (17:20):
right.
The 1100,
Jim (17:22):
you know, and that's just Remington and a lot of these core
arms are still pretty much the same.
Now, of course we do have some innovation.
A lot of the Italians have broughtsome really great products.
You know, south American companies,Turkish companies, and some of
them are making fantastic products.
Yeah.
(17:43):
So you know, back to youroriginal question, I actually
would argue stronger that.
The more we think firearms isa unique animal, the more we
think that to our own demise.
Shaylene (17:54):
Interesting.
That's great feedback.
It's hard to argue that
Jim (17:59):
there's a lot of Turkish companies jumping into the space.
Everybody sees it, and they're makingsome Now there's some less than high
quality products, but a lot of themare really high quality products
produced in world class facilitiesthat are making arms for NATO.
These are world class facilities andthose facilities are following the same
(18:19):
practices as any other world class.
Manufacturing facility with, withtheir quality standards, with their
technology that they use to ensurequality and their innovation.
And they're jumping into thespace and look at the result,
you know you don't have to look.
Yeah.
They're
Shaylene (18:34):
selling a lot of firearms.
Jim (18:37):
They are.
And if you look at the percentageof the firearms that are now sold.
in the U.
S.
by companies that don'thave their roots in the U.
S.
It's the vast majority now.
Shaylene (18:49):
Yes, that's right.
I looked at those the other day.
It was surprising.
So what, what do you think that ourfirearms businesses, and when we're
talking about strategic planning, Whatare some ways that strategic planning
really makes a big difference or animpact to their bottom line because if
they're, you know, if you're in charge ofa P& L or a division or you're an owner,
(19:12):
you know, all of it sounds great, butthe first thing you think of is, oh, my
God, if I had the money for that, I'd dothis or, You know, how, how do we make
that strategic planning pay for itself?
Because I know it does.
I know it does.
But I, I'm not an expert andwouldn't know how to label that.
Jim (19:30):
Well, strategic planning does two things.
It stops you from doing things that arenot aligned with where you should go.
And that saves you, that cansave your company right there.
And it also makes sure thatyour investments are absolutely
aligned with where you're goingand that so it does both that
(19:52):
eliminates the wrong investments.
It makes you invest properlywhere you need to go.
So, as an example, you knowthere's different ways to
differentiate your company.
You've differentiated yourselfbecause you give high, un,
high touch, unrivaled service.
I know it.
I've known you long enough.
(20:13):
I can see that's my goal,
, Shaylene: that's my goal.
That's why you're doing your podcast.
So if you decide that, that's howyou're gonna differentiate yourself
and that's your strategic plan.
you're not all of a sudden going to offerlow prices or the lowest price, or that
you're going to offer some other, youknow, kind of service that's not in line
(20:34):
with your way of differentiating yourself.
And the same thing happens in a business.
If they're going to differentiatethemselves on service, well, then they
have to be aligned and have great service.
If they're going to differentiatethemselves based upon new innovative
products, well, then you're goingto have to invest in engineering,
but then what are those products?
(20:55):
And because that can getout of hand very quickly.
And again, that's what strategicplanning does is makes sure that you're
making the right investments and not.
Making the wrong investments.
So in and of itself, I usually find thatcompanies and leadership are faced and
looking in the mirror like, oh my God,we're gonna have to stop doing what we've
(21:16):
been doing 'cause it doesn't matter.
Shaylene (21:18):
Yeah.
And
Jim (21:18):
they kind of already know it mostly.
But it forces them to put thaton paper and make a commitment
to making those hard choices.
I
Shaylene (21:27):
think an outside consultant, you know, I mean, I have hired people to
say, okay, come in and take a look at thiscircus that I'm running and tell me what
you see, you know, because when you'rein it every day, it's really hard to see.
And after a while it just getsto be, it's, I think it's just a
good business management to bringin a consultant once in a while.
(21:49):
If nothing else to justsay, what am I missing?
What do I not see?
Because you're.
You're right in the thick of it every day.
There's even if you're the best CEO inthe world and the best board member,
that's all great, but to bring anoutside consultant and they see things
differently than we see them every day.
Jim (22:06):
Yeah, absolutely.
And a strategic plan.
It's not just a plan.
It's not just a document.
It's a process as part of that processis, again, you know, what's your mission?
Why do you exist?
That's what the missionreally does for you.
You know, what's your vision?
What do you want to look like asyou're trying to achieve your mission?
(22:28):
What's your strategies?
How are you going to get from where you'reat to what you want to be, which is your
vision and the strategies define that.
Thank you.
And once you have that definition,of course, all the supporting actions
and the action plans and the budgetsthat go along with that, now you've
got something that you can turn intoa process, a core process that, that
(22:53):
every month or whatever period offrequency you need, that you can look
back and say, how are we doing on that?
Are we just mired in the let's getall the product out the door to
make the monthly shipments goals?
But are we actuallylooking at the compass?
Are we looking at you know, what ourstrategic plan is supposed to be?
and Even more specificallyin this industry.
(23:16):
One of the things that I reallyfocus on is do These companies
have any kind of a sales andoperations process, an SNOP process?
Hmm.
Where you're looking out at in termsof innovation and saying, you know,
next year at shot show, shot showis a great thing for our industry.
Shaylene (23:36):
Yeah.
For.
Jim (23:37):
Not only the commercial firearms for the hunter side of it that, you know,
that side of it, but, but also for thelaw enforcement for the military side.
Shaylene (23:46):
Yeah.
Jim (23:47):
It forces you, you have a, you have a window of opportunity
that happens every year.
It's not sneaking up on you.
Shaylene (23:53):
Yeah.
Right.
Jim (23:54):
So you should already have a roadmap of what are you going
to release in two to three years?
If that's your problem about developmentcycle, what's that going to look like?
And if you don't have that, Youare already set up for failure for
SHOT Show 28 because you're, you'renot going to be ready on time.
(24:15):
And you probably,
Shaylene (24:17):
that's a big commitment, not only manpower and finances,
but it's a missed opportunity.
It's like going to SHOT Show andnot, In my opinion, not sending any
press releases out and not makingthose connections ahead of time.
And you really do haveto plan way in advance.
And I don't know, I don't likesurprises and which is really
(24:38):
crazy if you think about being anentrepreneur or business owner.
But that is one thing that I havereally tried to work on and improve is.
I don't like surprises because it's,it just, it bungs up my whole finance
plan or, or anything that I've got goingon because I'm such a small company.
So to plan out those thingsmakes good sense to me.
(25:01):
It doesn't mean you can always doit, but it seems like if I were a
company right now that was getting,you know, really getting going in
the industry, man, I would feel likeI should light a fire underneath
myself because you have three years.
You know, before you have anotherpresident come in and if you don't know
that we're on we're cyclical based onpolitics, then you are going to learn
(25:24):
a really hard lesson at some point.
Jim (25:26):
Yeah, and that gets back to that sales and operations planning process.
And I'll give you a good example of that.
And then I do want to talk about ourcurrent environment because it's got lots
of positive and negative forces going on.
And that
Shaylene (25:39):
was going to be my next question.
Yeah.
Jim (25:41):
Companies really need to do it.
But one of the, one of the success storiesthat I was able to participate in with
a major firearms manufacturer, I won'tmention the name, but we almost doubled
sales in one year and the way we did it.
Was after I had joined up right aroundthe time of shot show came in and it was a
(26:02):
disaster it was Yeah, it was like being atthe Bronx Zoo Like literally the engineers
were gluing together products to get themonto the wall to display and and I would
say so When's that gonna be ready to sell?
They're like, oh, it's notready to sell What's the point?
Yeah in one year's time We had so weliterally met two weeks after shot show
(26:28):
and we made a decision These are theproducts that will be not only that
we're displaying at shot show But we'llbe ready for sale and have inventory
available at shot show to the hustleWhere we brought in our customer service
team and they were in the back of thebooth live into the erp system And when
(26:50):
a customer said, that's really cool.
I like that.
I'd like to order some.
I said, let me introduce you to so and so.
And we took them around and theyput their orders in at SHOT Show.
Shaylene (27:02):
Wow.
Now I love hearing that.
Jim (27:05):
And that's what I mean about having a plan, having an integrated
sales and operations process.
And again, this environment thatwe're in now is, is I'm excited
about it, but you better be carefulbecause we have Lots of counter
forces going on and you better know.
Which one and how they're goingto, you know, what they are and how
(27:28):
they're going to affect your business.
Shaylene (27:29):
This isn't going to be like Trump's, the last presidential run.
This is different.
I mean, this is different.
This is different.
And I think that I really do.
I really want to get into this.
Cause I think this is superimportant for our listeners and this.
This is, I mean, this, thank you, Jim.
I mean, I'm not, I'm not even paying youfor your expertise and I feel bad now
(27:50):
because I should have paid you becausethis is the real valuable stuff here.
And when we talked, I told you there wasa company that in October I'd had called
me about a role and they said, we needto find a X, this person in marketing.
I said, okay, great.
But tell me more aboutwhat that looks like.
(28:11):
What's your plan for theupcoming election in November?
If Trump wins, what's your plan?
If Kamala Harris wins, what's your plan?
And they didn't have one.
And I said, now then I don'tthink if I were you, I would hire
anyone until you have a plan.
Because there's a big differencein our world, generally speaking,
(28:35):
the political environment.
So, I would love for you to kind of giveyour thoughts on what do you look for
and how do you plan for the unplannable?
Because that's prettymuch what we live through.
Jim (28:46):
Yeah, especially in our industry at large.
So I'm going to back up a littlebit and just use this as a point of
reference to when Trump got elected.
You know, eight years ago we wentthrough something called the Trump Slump.
Shaylene (29:02):
Yeah.
Jim (29:02):
Anybody who's been in the industry remembers it.
It was minus 24%.
And leading up to theelection it was go-go.
In fact, I was interviewed on, I forgetwho it was, not gun talk, but one of the.
Shot show shop floor people walking aroundand they asked me what the what was my
opinion of You know barack obama versustrump and I said, I think barack obama
(29:25):
loves guns and they said you're kiddingI said well i'll summarize it every time
he opens his mouth gun sales went up
Shaylene (29:33):
So
Jim (29:33):
he's a smart guy and he kept talking and gun sales kept going up.
I could only draw the conclusionThat he liked guns, and gun sales.
Shaylene (29:42):
Yeah, but the
Jim (29:43):
point of it is it's an emotionally driven market It's not
logically driven, not by and large.
And I'm sure that, you know, there's
Shaylene (29:51):
Yeah.
Jim (29:51):
You know, instances where it's both, but by and large it's emotionally driven.
How many guns do we really need?
I have lots of guns.
I don't need no guns.
Shaylene (30:02):
All of mine got lost on a boat that sank.
I don't know, I
, Jim: but for me, I have lots of them.
Yeah, I don't
Jim (30:10):
need more, but I want more.
Shaylene (30:12):
Right.
And well, it's an emotional purchase.
I mean, you see thenewest thing and I go out.
We go to NRA and Dwayne,my husband looks at us.
He goes, Oh, you got to see this rifle.
Well, we walked out.
We bought two can't just have onein my house, but you're right.
I mean, you don't needthem, but you want them.
So that to me, that's the difference inthe automotive industry in some ways.
(30:35):
Right.
Unless you're a car collector or you'reof a specific niche you're focused on.
You buy a car because you need it.
Jim (30:43):
Yeah, and you know, there's certainly a lot of, hey, I want it, I
don't really need it, but firearms is waymore that way, and so we had the Trump
slump, and what it really taught us was,That the market will calm down and go,
whew, they're not gonna take our guns.
Yeah.
Shaylene (30:58):
So
Jim (30:59):
we are definitely gonna go through that.
But I like to look at things, Icall it like a force field analysis.
So you've got, you know, negative forcespushing down on a market, and you have
positive forces pushing up on the market.
So what are the negativeforces that are gonna cause our
market to retract and again.
In a certain instance where you've gota niche product that people need or
(31:21):
something of that may not respond tothese forces or maybe respond more.
Yeah.
But so it's very, youknow, people feel safer.
They just do, yeah.
They did not feel safe.
We had riots, you know, we had, youknow, cities burning, we had defund
the police, we had all these things.
Yeah.
Also, during
Shaylene (31:41):
Biden's reign.
Yeah,
Jim (31:43):
you're under, I'm in the eastern shore of Virginia.
We had a lot of people exitingBaltimore, Washington coming
over here because it's safe.
So it's, it's, it was realin terms of its effects.
So people are going tofeel safe under Trump.
I think so.
I think most people would agree with that.
We're probably going tosee a slackening of that.
(32:03):
Trump's promise to end wars now, will he?
I'd like to think so.
But the war in Ukraine and the war in theMiddle East are consuming resources that
are exactly the same resources that weuse for domestic firearms, metals, copper,
lead powder, as as a tangible example.
(32:25):
Of that, those wars.
They just announced Alliant Powders canhave a, a 10% increase on its powder.
Why is that?
There's not a lot of powder manufacturers.
You can't build powdermanufacturing plants quickly.
They take decades to build becauseenvironmental and safety and
all that, and they're not justgoing to make the investment.
(32:47):
So just because a war spikes up doesn'tmean they can ramp the production.
Shaylene (32:51):
Right?
Right.
So spices
Jim (32:52):
go up.
So if the wars end.
And that's going to have asoftening of those materials.
So as an example, and Ihappened to buy this yesterday.
We're already seeing ammo availability.
Here's just a standard.
I bought it at Walmart, gota pretty good price on it.
It's a good load.
(33:13):
I assure you during ammoshortages, I couldn't get them.
Right, right.
No, we
Shaylene (33:18):
definitely, it is amazing how our industry, it just moves and
flexes just with the blink of aneye, which is important about this
strategic planning, because whenyou're doing that, do you plan for.
situation 3 and then have backup plansbecause you can't plan for everything.
Jim (33:40):
Well, the, the factors that cause it to go up and down while, you know,
who knows when some, when a terroristis going to cause a, an event and next
thing you know, we're embroiled inanother, we, you can't predict that.
But, you know, theeffect of Trump on wars.
Yeah, we can, we can takea pretty good stab at that.
(34:00):
And what does that mean?
We know what that looks like.
We know that, you know, gun sales havebeen declining the last couple of years.
We know that.
We, I would say with Trump in office,it's probably going to continue.
So, so these are, you can identifya lot of them, certainly not all
of 'em, and that's what strategicplanning forces you to do.
(34:22):
And then put that into your salesand operations planning, which should
become almost a weekly practice.
You know, relative to backto, Hey, this year we're going
to introduce these models.
We think we're going to sell 12,000 of them, a thousand a month, or
are we on track to sell a thousand,make and sell a thousand a month.
I'm oversimplifying it to make the point,but that's where large companies fail.
(34:47):
And I'll give you one realtangible example of this.
I learned this again in the Trumpslump a couple of years ago, major,
like if you're And you want to sellthose shotgun shells and you can't
get them during a a tight economywhere, where you just can't get ammo.
You place exactly that same orderwith federal, with Winchester, with
(35:11):
Remington, with Fiocchi, with whoever,you know, because you need to sell them.
And when the lead times are longand the manufacturers aren't
making, you place that same order.
So that demand is fake.
You may say, oh my gosh,you know, we have an order.
You don't necessarily have an order.
It's whoever fills that order first.
(35:32):
And that's a good point.
And the unwise companies, and thishappens a lot, end up saying, oh my
gosh, I got this big order from Cabela'sand not that I'm not cabella, right.
But they don't realize if it's acancelable order, is it really an order?
Shaylene (35:48):
Right.
Jim (35:49):
Again, that's where strategic planning, looking at the various forces
that may affect your business are makinga plan and being conservative on a
conservative side and really watchingyour inventories and your commitment and
your commitments for incoming materials.
is where your fiscal health is goingto, you know reside ultimately.
Shaylene (36:13):
And being conservative on your planning and your forecasting does
not mean that you're not optimistic.
No, I do.
I think that people,you know, I don't want.
people to go away from thisthinking, oh, this is a downer.
It's not a downer, it's a positive thing.
No, the sooner you get on strategicplanning and really take a look at stuff,
(36:35):
the better you're gonna be because youmay have your most profitable years.
are likely going to be theyears that aren't insane.
Jim (36:43):
Yeah.
And, and we all know justbecause it's down now, it's
not going to stay down long.
There are forces pushing us up.
Our floor constantly gets raised.
We have more female shooters than ever.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Continuing to grow.
It's proliferating in the products.
(37:05):
It's proliferating in the opportunities.
It is common for women.
to be hunting now.
It wasn't common a generation ago.
Shaylene (37:15):
That's right.
We have
Jim (37:15):
more youth shooters as an example and more youth shooting opportunities.
If you look at even just huntingopportunities to take the state of
Pennsylvania, one of the largesthunting sales states, one of the largest
hunting bases, gun bases, whatever thenumber of seasons that are available
to the hunter now starts in lateSeptember and goes through January.
(37:39):
It used to be and rifle.
Now it's muzzl bow.
You can still do trad isin line muzzle loader.
So all of a sudden I like I needfive new weapons w I only had one.
(38:02):
So there
shooting sports themselveshooting is real.
There's and a lot of technology i
That's being invested.
So to your point, this is actuallya great time, but it's a great time
to knuckle down, get your plans.
(38:23):
Yeah.
Make sure you're safe fiscally sound,and get ready because the, the,
the next wave is gonna come and youwant to be able to ride it and not.
you know, and not just sit backand do nothing because that's
where you will get caught.
Shaylene (38:36):
Yeah.
If you sit back and do nothing, yourcompetition has already beaten you
because they're, they're alreadyin innovating in your sleep.
That's been my business mantra isdon't sleep because you, you have
to keep ahead of your competition.
It doesn't matter what the business is.
I do want to touch on one more thingthat we didn't talk about ahead of time.
(38:57):
When you're looking at the industryas a whole, Do you think it's wise or
are there opportunities to diversify?
And how do you feel about companiesbeing only in the commercial space?
We call commercial the people likeme who go to Cabela's or wherever
and buy their things, the dealers.
But are there companies that can orshould be into military law enforcement?
(39:25):
you know, government sales, would thathelp them level out their playing field?
And what's the pluses and minuses of that?
Because those are all differentbuying seasons and different products.
Jim (39:38):
Yeah, there's a lot of a lure to getting involved in the
military and law enforcement.
There is and it is a great marketand once you're in it, you're in it.
It's hard to, it's hard tochange away from your product.
As an example of your productson an officer's duty belt.
(39:59):
Well, that officer does not makethe decision to, Oh, I don't
want to use that flashlight.
I'm going to go buy my own.
No, no, no, no, no.
That's those are big decisionsthat are made at a higher level.
And once you're in, you're in.
The barrier to entry is massive
Shaylene (40:16):
and daunting.
Jim (40:17):
And if you think it's long, it's four times longer.
And everybody wants to get in there.
And my counsel has always been is makesure that you are fiscally sound and
that you are able to make a longterm.
And when I say longterm five to 10year investment to break that market
you may have a better mousetrap.
(40:37):
You may really have a better mousetrap,but a short sales cycle is the law
enforcement's a little faster thanmilitary, unless you happen to
get in with some branch of specialforces that can do their own thing.
And they are out there,but everybody's after them.
Shaylene (40:52):
Right.
Jim (40:53):
But it's three years, but typically it's going to be a five to 10 year
investment if you're successful.
Shaylene (40:59):
And you're competing with other brands.
I mean, these are all, there's aprocess to go through to get approved
on the military list, but it does have,you know, and that was my question.
If you, if you front loaded all that,and if you could do that, if you said,
this is one of my long term strategicgoals and you, you set up for that, then
(41:21):
wouldn't that help your company, youknow, navigate this up and down more?
Jim (41:26):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It is worthwhile.
But again, you have to have the financialhealth to make those investments with
zero return for five to ten years.
Wow.
And, and not get swayed offof it and say, no, we, we are
going to break into that market.
And again, if you're successful,it's, it's five years on the short.
(41:48):
And it may be never, but if youreally have a better mouse trap
and you're doing the right things,it, it can be a great market.
And then once you're in.
My God, look at Colt.
Like they're still in there with the M16 after all those, you know, since 47.
So it can be a great long run and agood part of a long term strategy.
(42:08):
So that's an excellent point.
Shaylene (42:10):
Yeah.
Okay.
That's good information.
Well, thank you for this, Jim.
What a
talking for like another hour.
But I don't, my poor listeners,I usually do a shorter one.
I knew this was gonna be longerand I, it was, it's a struggle to
even end it because there's so manythings that I want people to know.
That you have experience in I guess i'lljust encourage our listeners to if you're
(42:35):
not sure You know if you could use aconsultant or if you've got a project,
you know, reach out to jim his contactinformation There'll be a link on the
Spotify and youtube and iheart radio andapple podcasts wherever you find this
and on our website But I would reallyencourage you to think about reaching out
(42:58):
to Jim and seeing, Hey, what do you think?
Is this a project you're interested in?
Because it just, I, it all, it justpays for itself, honestly, because
not doing something stupid could saveyour company and getting someone with
a set of eyes on it and go, well, youcould do this, or here's an idea here.
It just makes all the difference.
Jim (43:19):
Well, Shaylene, thank you.
It's been an honor andalways enjoy your presence.
Never get enough time with you.
And thank you so much for thehonor of being on your podcast.
And you're the best for the industry.
You really, you reallyhave us at your heart.
You do such a great job.
So thank you for all you do.
Shaylene (43:35):
You are my people.
I don't know what I'd do without you guys.
You guys fill my soulmore than I can even say.
So thank you, Jim.
And thank you for listening toHeadHunters NW podcast until next time.
Thank you.
Jim (43:49):
Thank you.
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