TRIVECTA - Balancing The Grind As A Full-Time Touring Artist

Trivecta is a melodic bass music artist signed to Seven Lion’s Ofelia Records. He recently released his sophomore album with the label and is currently on tour to support its release, headlining venues and playing major festivals all over the country.

Follow Trivecta here:
https://www.instagram.com/trivectamusic

Follow Nik Cherwink here:
https://www.instagram.com/nikcherwink

And visit my site to join the mailing list or book a free coaching call:
https://www.nikcherwink.com

Episode Transcript

Sam (00:00):
persistence, and consistency really key, you can

(00:04):
do all the right things you cancheck all the boxes, you can
make great music, make greatsocial posts, make good friends
in the industry, get an agent.
You can do all this and stillnot get results you're happy
with.
Sometimes it takes just doingall of those things over and
over and over and over again.

Nik (00:34):
What's up?
Everybody?
Welcome to the headliner mindsetpodcast Today's guest is a
melodic bass producer who signedto Ophelia records seven lions
records label He's a producerHe's recently dropped his second
album with them and has beenkeeping his tour schedule
packed, headlining shows andplaying the biggest festivals
all over the country.
This is Trivecta,

Sam (00:53):
Yo, what's up, man?

Nik (00:55):
my man.
Welcome.
Welcome.
Stoked to have you here.
We were just chatting before westarted recording about, how's
it been one of those, one ofthose days for us, we to, we had
to get through some traffic.
We had to get through sometechnical difficulties, but
we're fucking here, bro.

Sam (01:09):
come on.

Nik (01:10):
to dive in.

Sam (01:11):
I mean, it almost kind of feels like sometimes live sets
are sometimes like this.
Sometimes if you have an earlyhiccup, it kind of puts you in a
mindset where you're kind oflike, you know what?
All right.
It kind of loosens you up rightaway.
So I like we've already startedour whole thing with that now.

Nik (01:25):
It's like, what's, what's the worst that could happen?
I've already stumbled over theroadblock, you know?

Sam (01:29):
Yeah, exactly.

Nik (01:30):
That's a good point.
I kind of want to just fuckingdive right into the deep end

Sam (01:36):
Sure.

Nik (01:37):
you are a full time artist.
You are living the dream.
You're playing shows.
You said you just got aheadlining tour that you're
starting.
You just dropped an album onseven lions label.
I mean, like, what a dream labelfor so many people.
I know?
This is a such an open endedquestion.
And we can spend the next houranswering it But What did it
take to get there

Sam (01:58):
Yeah, you, you, you weren't kidding with that being an open
ended one.
Well, I'll give my disclaimerfirst to everybody.
This isn't my normal voice.
I was at Escape this weekend.
I certainly lost it.
Yesterday was a disaster.
So I'm doing my best.
I'll clear my throat a bit.
Um, bro

Nik (02:13):
sexy kind of scruffy post festival, you know, where you're
like, I sound a little fuckingmanly now, you

Sam (02:20):
I was doing my Emperor Palpatine impression this
morning.
It works perfectly.
These are ideal circumstances.
But anyway, uh, so yeah, whatdoes it take, man?
What I found it takes is, Iwould say in the broad strokes
of it are, keeping your eye onthe ball, staying focused on
what inspires you and adaptingto meet the challenges that you
face.
As they keep coming and stayingpersistent.

(02:42):
That's my basic broad strokeanswer.
Just depending on how we want todive in.
Yeah.

Nik (02:48):
your eye on the ball.
And.
Keeping your eye on the ball interms of what inspires you
rather than keeping your eye onthe ball of what's happening in
the scene, what's happening inthe industry.
Right.
Uh, so I, I love that, thatthat's where you took that
actually.
So, um, tell me a little bitmore about following that
inspiration.

Sam (03:08):
Yeah.
sure.
and I think to your point, bothof those things are important,
but I almost want to say, Imean, at least in my experience,
the first thing you said,keeping your eye on the ball of,
what inspires you is probablymost important.
there are people almostradically in that train of
thought.
Rick Rubin is a good example whosays, in his opinion, the
audience, their opinion comeslast.

(03:28):
And, Jake killed the noise.
He's one of my favorite sort ofminds that I riff off a lot.
And, he once said that the, thelittle voice within you that
tells you what you like and whatyou don't like and throws you
creative ideas, the muse, somemight call it, um, it will keep
speaking to you, but the lessyou listen to it, the less it'll
talk to you, you know, until itjust shuts up eventually
forever.
And I don't think it's a blackand white thing.
I think it's kind of a practice,you know, a practice learning

(03:50):
how to listen to that voice.
I mean, I've.
I've been working on it myselfand, you know, I've gone through
phases where I'm like, damn,what do I even like anymore?
You know?
So then you get a burst ofinspiration, you're like, Oh my
God, that's what I like.
I, I, I, it has been here allalong, you know?
And I think staying connectedwith that sort of, compass of
taste, is just so important.

Nik (04:09):
Yeah.
So a little sidebar was checkingout your stuff going through a
lot of your like Instagramcontent, there were two things
in there that I saw that werereally cool.
I just want to ask you about it.
When Yeah.
You're kind of questioning whatyou even like right now.
You coined the term, what was itlike folk base or

Sam (04:26):
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
it.
Yep.

Nik (04:30):
So, so tell me about that folk base.
I'm not seeing a lot.
It seems like you're, you'recreating a little, your own
little, over here.
What's folk

Sam (04:37):
Yeah.
Um, and it wasn't even like somecrazy, like super hyper
intentional thing.
I was in a phase during aroundwhen the pandemic started, uh,
maybe give or take a year, maybe2019 through 2020.
Where it felt like, melodicbass, which was kind of the
world I was in, had, especiallywith like a Lenny, I'm going to
sort of pop space.

(04:58):
And a lot of us were trying tocopy the same couple artists.
And it was kind of like, allright, if this genre wants to
move forward, you know, it wassort of, it's sort of back up
against the wall.
Like if I want to do anythingforward, thinking for it, then
create my own lane.
I need to kind of stop.
focusing on what else is goingaround me and start thinking,
okay, how can I dig in and takewhat it is that I like that
maybe other people aren't doing.

(05:20):
And maybe that I might be sortof uniquely poised to bring to
the table.
And I think, taste plus skillsetkind of really come into play to
interact there.
And for me, I've just alwaysloved really cozy sounding folk
music, you know, like ofmonsters, men, your Mumford and
sons, that kind of stuff.
And so like, I started justtrying to see, be like, all
right, look, I mean, these areboth.
They're not too far away.

(05:41):
They're both very feelsy kindsof music like melodic bass music
and like folky stuff.
They're also very immersive.
They both kind of take yousomewhere.
So, like, all right, you knowwhat?
Let me start trying to figureout what I like about this other
kind of music I'm listening toso much and try to work it in.
And in doing so, it started tokind of create its own sound.
And I don't want to do thestomp, stomp, clay, uh, stomp,

(06:02):
stomp, clap, hey, folk music.
God, it's like really cheesy.
It was all about taking the sortof underpinnings of other parts
of it and putting it together.

Nik (06:10):
Yeah

Sam (06:10):
So, yeah,

Nik (06:12):
You know, what you just said about that combination of
taste and skill

Sam (06:16):
yeah,

Nik (06:16):
really stands out to me.
Because it's kind of like, ifyou don't have the skill set,
You can't really translate yourtaste in the first place.
Right.
I feel like where a lot ofpeople are probably at where
they're like, I'm still justdeveloping the skillset of like
actually getting good at thesetools.

Sam (06:36):
huge,

Nik (06:37):
might have this, like, I, like right now I'm like, man, I
really want to start a fucking,Drum and bass metal band.
Like I vision for it.
Like just works perfectly, butI'm like, I don't have the
skillset to produce, you know,at like a sub focus level drum
and bass, you know?
But yeah, here that, that justbrings up something I haven't
really thought of that much, youknow?
For you, what would yourecommend in terms of like

(06:59):
really just developing thatskillset?
How did you get yourself?
To a place in your skill setwhere you actually can have that
playfulness with your taste andactually really incorporate it.

Sam (07:12):
I love it.
You said playfulness because youalmost can't get playful when
you're exasperated and really.
you can tell even when a DJstarts to get playful, when
they're locked in, when it'susually not the beginning of the
set, it's usually once theystart flowing, you need to be in
rhythm with almost anything tokind of get playful.
And I think that in this case,that requires really developing

(07:33):
a skill set before you can kindof toss little bits of it here
and there for fun.
And that to me is like you said,playful, that's where some of
the best stuff happens.
I think it takes like for me,the melodic bass stuff, Like the
foundation was already therebecause I'd spent so long in
that space.
And then it took me doing a deepdive and I'd always highly
recommend that.
It took me like, it was like,okay, if I want to get into this

(07:54):
folk music, I made a wholeplaylist of songs that were
really inspiring me and try tofigure out everything I liked
about what worked about thoseand try to sort of cross
pollinate.
I noticed a lot of motifs, evenquarterly, like a, a one to a
four to a one again, like as faras on the music theory side or
like how the guitars wererecorded, I noticed a lot of
them weren't going for, youknow, certain type of guitar
sound.
They're going for a differenttype and so on and so forth.

(08:15):
And all these little things,then you start figuring out, all
right, Which parts of this don'tI like?
Which are the parts of it thatmake it a little cheesy?
Maybe I don't want that.
You know, and if you really takea deep dive and dig into a
certain sound, then you can comeback and dog.
There were a lot of times whereI made really clunky
combinations of folk and a lotof bass.
There were a lot of risers like,okay, this doesn't really work

(08:36):
with that.
But you know, you keep trying indifferent combos, you know,

Nik (08:40):
but it sounds like you really went in and studied.
Like you said, you took a deepdive.
to like approach that, like Ireally liked that of like, yeah,
go, go study it, right.
deep dive into this thing thatyou want to learn and pick it
apart and look at it from alldifferent angles and figure out
like what works and what

Sam (08:56):
living it, get immersed by it.
Yeah.

Nik (08:58):
Yeah.
Now.
I would say that it's importantfor people to also do that with
the business side as well.
like I'm, I do coaching.
I consider myself a life coach,but a lot come to me for like
business coaching as well,specifically working with, DJs
and artists.
And I've been in this space for,I don't know, 15, 16 years or
something.
And a lot of times there'speople that I've spent.

(09:23):
Hundreds, I mean thousands,thousands and thousands of hours
of learning how to make music,you know.
And you're just fucking neckdeep in Ableton and you're
watching all the tutorials.
and then I just realized, I'mlike, you haven't spent zero
time Doing a deep dive in thebusiness and learning how do you
actually get this out?
So was there a point for youwhere you had to Kind of make

(09:43):
that deep dive into the businessside and like are you like
digging into that as well?
Or did you just get fuckinglucky

Sam (09:49):
Yeah, no,

Nik (09:50):
and everything just worked out that some what's gonna
happen to them

Sam (09:54):
Yeah, no, definitely the former.
It's definitely been a slowgrind of things working over
time and from doing exactly whatyou said yet for the business
side, I mean, it's hard to begreat at both.
You know, it's like a pitcher,it's such a specialized skill
set that they're usually notgreat hitters unless you live in
LA.
You're familiar with probablyone guy who is, but besides
that, you know, a lot of peoplewho are very like artistic

(10:15):
minded are not always very goodon the business side.
So it does take a dedicated sortof.
focus.
For example, like on, I thinkeach project I do, especially
the album stuff is where Ireally, Dig in and try to level
up on the business side.
Because I have more of acohesive product to push.
That's not just, Hey, how am Iputting out one song?
So like, for example, on thislast album, I made it a point to

(10:39):
get the album done, like atleast close to done a month
before it was supposed to bedone.
and that made it so I, once Iturned it in and I couldn't
touch it, I had about a monthwhere every day I'd wake up and
I couldn't go to studio becauseI know.
That I won't naturally justthink business.
I won't naturally wake up andstart thinking business.
So what I did is I forced myselfto like, okay, well, now the

(11:00):
music's in and I can't doanything for a month here.
I would be like, okay, I need towork on this.
I want to work on that littlething.
Okay, I guess we can work on thebusiness side.
That's all I had to work on.
So I'd wake up and I would.
Do these Google Docs, I wouldlook at what other artists were
doing from a business side thatworks and start to sort of
compile a whole list ofstrategies, sort of what songs

(11:20):
those would work for, saveInstagram posts into different
folders of things that I'd see,Oh, maybe I could take that kind
of post and do that for one ofmy songs that did well for this
guy, you know, and then try toreinterpret those ideas into the
space that I'm in, you know, andsay, how does this work for my
music?
And I think also a big thing issurrounding yourself with people
as a.
I've been able to bring peoplein, especially like the

(11:42):
financial side of the businessside, which will never be a
strength of mine.
I was able to bring in a goodagent, a good manager who can,
negotiate and things like that,you know?

Nik (11:51):
Yeah, I love hearing that, though.
Just the fact that, you sat downand you just, you studied the
landscape what are other artistsdoing?
And what's let me look at socialmedia and, like, get some
inspiration from there.
And, you know, I love that.
You even had folders andeverything.
Like, I think that a lot ofartists are doing that.
And for everyone listening, liketake fucking notes because,
maybe you're not even at thatphase yet.

(12:12):
Like maybe you still just needto be working on the music and
developing that skillset.
But if you are, releasing andyou're putting out your tracks,
yeah, have some systems and somefolders and some take some deep
dives into learning the game,know, I think that just, that's
an important like mindset tohave.
So

Sam (12:27):
Yeah.
Time to switching gears.
And working on making sureyou're even if it's not a
strength.
I honestly think if you justdedicate some time every x
amount of time to focusing onthe business It'll probably put
you ahead of a lot of guysalready just by doing

Nik (12:41):
Oh yeah.
a thousand percent.
Take me back to when you wentfull time.
Like, going from, yo, I'm makingbleeps and bloops in my bedroom.
You know,

Sam (12:51):
Yeah.
Yeah

Nik (12:52):
To oh no, I'm actually like, this is my career.
And, and you actually like, wentfull time with it.

Sam (12:57):
It was scary.
i've been teaching guitar foreight years that's how I was
making my money that and likeYou Maybe about 1, 000 a month
on, on just, passive incomefrom, Just my releases that I
had, on streaming and whatnotand, coming out of the pandemic
when all the shows came back, Ihad picked up a good bit of
momentum online and when theshows came back, a couple shows

(13:17):
went really well and so on andso forth and eventually I was
able to attract the attention ofbigger management, bigger
agency, and they said, Sam, youknow, I think this is probably
time to make that jump, youknow, and I don't remember if
they said it first, if I saidit, but that was kind of the
consensus.
And, yeah, I had to quitteaching.
I had to say goodbye to about 20students at one time and, and
take that little leap.

(13:38):
It was crazy at the time.
Now I'm like, I would have zerotime to do any of the teaching
right now with how busy it'sgotten.
But yeah, that was a challengingtransition for sure.

Nik (13:47):
And you said you had gotten enough momentum, though, to feel
like it was ready.
So, like, that?

Sam (13:53):
I don't even know that it felt ready, but it felt like I
was at the point where I don'tthink I, I just couldn't do both
anymore, and it was like, if Iwant to make more progress on
the music thing, I'm going toneed to free up more runway
here.
And so, no, I actually, I thinkI misspoke there.
It didn't feel ready.
It felt like I had to or itwasn't going to go anywhere.

(14:13):
and it was the same thing aswhen I did my first headline
tour.
I was like, guys, I've nohistory in some of these
markets.
How in the hell am I supposed togo headline?
This is probably eight monthsafter I quit.
And I was like, I definitely amnot ready.
And in certain markets, Iprobably wasn't, but my team
said, Sam, like now's the time.
Now at some point you have toassert that you have to make
that jump, you know.

(14:34):
Yeah, yeah, And I think there'ssomething really powerful,
energetically when you just sayyou just take that leap of faith
and it's like all right bitchI'm all in like we're fucking
doing this and it's like theuniverse sees you Acting with
courage and Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.

Nik (14:51):
you for taking that leap of faith, you know, think that
Yeah, for anyone that'slistening right now, I think
there's a handful of people thatare, getting to that point,
right?
I know someone's listening tothis right now.
And there is something about theleap of faith.
It was same thing with me forcoaching.
Like I was, coaching.
Kind of on the side is like mylittle side hustle,

Sam (15:12):
Okay.
Yeah.

Nik (15:13):
learning and, did like a coaching certification.
I had little clients here andthere.
It was sort of making a littlebit of money.
And then for me, I can'tactually take full credit for,
wanting to go full time.
I was in that limbo phase oflike, is it, am I ready?
I want to save up a little bitof money, have a little bit of a
cushion.
And then I actually got let gofrom my job.
And so then it was like, thatwas the universe pushing me off

(15:34):
the cliff.
but there's just this thingwhere it's you just kind of
figure it out.
You know, like once you takethat leap, it's just like, all
right, well now I have to swim.

Sam (15:43):
I mean, don't you find that you think of things differently
when your feet are dangling andyou're no longer walking
anymore?

Nik (15:50):
Yeah.
It's almost just like anidentity, you oh, I'm not a part
time artist anymore.
I'm a full time artist.
And so when you're, when youactually own that identity, you
step into it, you just show updifferently,

Sam (16:02):
the whole thought process changes.

Nik (16:03):
Yeah.
100%.
So you had like a team and amanager at that point though.
So shows weren't happening for awhile, but you had some, you had
a team at that point.

Sam (16:11):
Yeah.
I've been through a couple ofteams over the years and, all of
them were great at the time thatit was, that I was at, and you
know, ultimately, your needs andeverybody's needs change and
everybody adapts and you sortwill move on with, you know,
different groups of people thatfeel appropriate at the time.
And, I just moved into a newteam, a new management and new
agency and yet I think that wastowards the end.

(16:33):
It had to have been rightaround, right before the show
started.
I think it was probably a couplemonths before the shows really
started coming back.
I had just done.
A couple festivals and like itwas clear that some of the
momentum I really focused onbuilding online during the
pandemic was translating to theshows.
So that's when everybody sort oftook notice.

(16:55):
And from there, just kind ofkept moving.

Nik (16:57):
Yeah.
So what were you doing online tocreate some of that buzz

Sam (17:00):
Yeah.
before.
I was playing shows originallyin like the early, in the mid
2010s, I was just producing, andthat's where the TriVipta thing
started, and I was releasing onMonstercat, and the big YouTube
channels were picking it up, andI was doing, then I started
playing shows.
when the pandemic started, I waslike, Oh shit, we're kind of

(17:20):
back to my space again here.
We're kind of back online again.
And like the whole TikTok thingwasn't real big back then or
anything.
It was just kind of like, yeah,a lot of guys whose whole job,
their whole identity was justthrowing parties every night.
I think a lot of them were kindof in a position where it's
like, Oh shit, what do we do?
Because we're only sort of inperson.
And I had sort of learned to dothe in person thing over the
last few years, but myfoundation was more.

(17:42):
Talking to fans online.
So I was like, Oh, all right,we're coming back.
We're going to leverage this.
So I built a discord and thediscord thing really popped off
and I started actually twitchstreaming when I was producing
music and I think some of themare still on YouTube where I was
just like, I would just let thestream run and just work on
songs in the studio and talk tofans.
Sometimes I'd be, I would just,you know, communicate and try
their ideas and so on and soforth.

(18:04):
And, do question and answersessions.
and then when I put out the EP,which was like the first bit of,
It was the everyday EP.
It was like the first bit offolk bass, you know, and, that's
when I was really able to usethe internet and the sort of
mouthpiece I had at the time tocommunicate to the fans the
intentions behind what I wasdoing musically, communicate the
thought process, behind thedevelopment and the sound.
So all that kind of created alittle bit of a storm where when

(18:26):
shows came back, I had a muchtighter knit community.

Nik (18:30):
Yeah.
I love that you were comfortablewith the online space and
embraced it.
Like you said, that Mouthpieceand you focused on leveraging
that to build your community, isthat, that I think comes up a
lot, that we talk about on thepodcast is just, there's a lot
of times Social media in generalright but I love that, like, you

(18:53):
also, you know, you weren't justdoing silly TikTok dances,
right?
I think that's where a lot ofpeople feel the resistance.
I literally just had, a coachingcall with, a metal band that
potentially wants to work withme, which is so fucking sick.
I would be stoked to that.
Yeah.
But that was their big thing.
They're just like, we don't wantto, like, Be inauthentic and
like

Sam (19:11):
Right.
It's huge.
Sure.

Nik (19:13):
doing, you and I totally get that But seeing how there's
other areas one like just, youknow getting on discord using
twitch you know really greatplatforms for building
community, but Overall what Isee I think the biggest Starting
point is just literally yourmindset around social media and
the online space in general,like you didn't resist it.

(19:35):
You were like, Oh, cool.
Like I can go back to this placeand let's jump in.
As opposed to fighting it toothand nail.
It's like, oh, I don't want tobe a fucking, I don't want to be
an influencer.
I don't want to, have to be, Idon't want to have to do this
stuff.
That's, the big, that's the bigkind of limiting belief that I
see a lot of people get caughtup in.
It's like, I don't want to haveto do this

Sam (19:52):
Sure.
Yeah I feel like to be fair, itwas a little bit of a different
time too then.
Because, this was before.
Social media over the last, youknow, a couple of years has
become so, rewarding, it'sbecome so focused on sharing
content that people will justsort of virally just share with
each other as, it's harder tomaybe get community driven

(20:15):
authenticity going.
It's not impossible at all.
But I think back then when thisall happened, it was easier for
me to be like, because I wasleaning on the authenticity side
too.
So it was like, yeah, it waslike, Oh, cool.
I'll just start Twitchstreaming.
And people were like flocking toTwitch.
People were flocking to Discord.
And now it is challenging.

Nik (20:31):
at that time that was the pandemic, so everyone was just
stuck inside and like lookingfor cool shit do.
So yeah that makes

Sam (20:37):
Now we're in a spot where like, a lot of artists are
struggling with, the type ofthing that works, the
authenticity isn't getting asmuch, unless you find like a
really clever spin, and it'sbeen a struggle point for me as
well, you know, putting out analbum and watching as things
don't get the clicks they wouldhave before, because, it's not.
Something that the algorithmrecognizes as something that a

(20:59):
bunch of people are sharing withstrangers, you know, it's like,
well, I'm not necessarily tryingto do that right here.
I'm trying to show my fans thatI'm putting out an album.
I don't want to hide thatmessaging in some sort of code
behind some viral clip, youknow?
So it is challenging but to yourpoint, yeah, man, like it is a
game that we do have to play andwe all do have to kind of, I
guess, discover our own voicefor that.
And I brought a team on myselfto help with exactly what you're

(21:21):
talking about, help sort of comeup with.
Ideas for social media that canat least, keep things churning
because you're right you can'treally fight it right now as
challenging as it can be.

Nik (21:31):
Yeah.
Yeah, It does bring up a goodpoint, though, as well.
I know there's like a generationof artists where Things were
different.
You put a fucking remix up onSoundCloud and just pop off.
It really has only been the lastcouple of years that huge shift
towards social media has become,It's always been prevalent, but
now it's feeling a little bitmore, There were just easier

(21:53):
ways to kind of and blow upbefore.
So

Sam (21:56):
Sure.

Nik (21:56):
And that's the truth is like, it's always going to
change though.
It's like the landscape isalways going to change five
years before that it wasdifferent.
Five years that it was differenttoo.
So like keeping up with wherethings are at is important, I
think.

Sam (22:07):
Isn't that the challenge because we started this
conversation talking about?
You had mentioned how importantit was what I said about keeping
your eye on the ball as far asyour own intuition But when
you're focused so deep withinyour side yourself, it's hard to
do exactly what you're saying,which is such an important thing
to do, which is keep an eye onsort of how things are moving.
At the same time, it requiresyou to look at a million things

(22:27):
at one time to make it in thisindustry.

Nik (22:29):
Yeah.
it's wild.
I kind of use duality as a realfoundation of my coaching.
It's just the duality of,whether that's like the
energetic spectrum of likemasculine and feminine energy,
or just the duality of, being,an artist, but also being a
producer.
I look at being artist as the,that's the intuitive Rick Ruby
flow and flowy side, but the, orthat's the taste side, right?

(22:53):
But then also being a produceris having that technical
skillset or be at being anartist, but also being a
business owner.
It's, it really is theintegration of both and of all
of it.
I, you know, it's, it'sinteresting cause you do have a
team.
I think in a perfect world, itwould be set up so that an
artist can really just focus ontheir zone of genius and your

(23:16):
manager who's really gonna likerun the business for you.
It seems though that still thateven with a manager and you got
a team, it's still like youcan't just be in the studio,

Sam (23:26):
No, it, dude, you couldn't be more on point.
,as going back to Jake, kill thenoise he once said that you are
the sort of central nervoussystem of your whole project and
every decision.
Every idea, it all stems fromyou.
It all comes from you.
And nobody's going to care aboutyour project nearly the way you
do.
I wish it were so like what youwere just saying, like that
ideal world where like you couldjust focus on the creative but

(23:47):
if that were the case, everycreative would just be like, all
right, I'm just going to besuper creative and this fly.
My agent Max, he told me earlyon when I started working with
him, he's like, dude, you gottaremember your CEO.
He's like you're an artist, butyou're also a CEO.
You're a CEO of Tribecta music.,my photographer slash tour
manager has me in his phone as aCEO, Sam, and this stuff reminds
me, I got to wake up and everyday, I got to be the one who,

(24:09):
who thinks like, Hey, Where arewe here with this?
What are we doing with this?
What are we doing with that?
Because otherwise, somebody elsewill do that, you know?

Nik (24:15):
Yeah.
I really love that though.
That is just that CEO mindset.
Like, yeah, you gotta wake upand really like run the business

Sam (24:23):
Yeah, you do.

Nik (24:24):
And your life.
What is your day to day lookthat?

Sam (24:28):
Depends on what I'm doing at the time.
I can tell you it starts when Iwake up and ends when I go to
sleep.
That's the constant.
Today was actually the firsttime in so long where I woke up
and was like, Oh my God, I don'thave something immediate that I
need to be like.
I had to get a post up for theweekend and sort of start
talking social media plan forthe week for all the stuff we
did this weekend and to continuepushing album songs.

(24:51):
But, I did the whole album.
I mean, the album I woke upevery day for a year and a half
if I wasn't on the road and Iwould.
I would just work.
I would just go to studio.
I would, go to the gym and comeback to the studio, work more.
I would work on the social mediastuff.
I would work on the businessstuff.
I would take notes.
I would do blah, blah, blah, etcetera, et cetera.
Then when I had the album in,like I said earlier I got in a
full sort of almost allmarketing business mode kind of

(25:14):
side of things.
And then, but I'm doing all thatwhile playing shows every week,
almost every weekend, The zoomedout is usually weekends or shows
and weekdays or wake up anddrink out of a firehose just
like here's everything I'msupposed to be doing here's
everything I need to be doinglet me just you know, and then
and do it all it's crazy becauseonce I, you know finished the
album.
And once I was in that marketingspace, then I was like, okay,

(25:35):
shit.
Now I got to focus on rollingout the album.
And now I got to focus on thetour, and building my live show,
you know, because I only had acouple weeks to get that
together because a whole newalbum to get out and into the
set.
Plus a live show.
All the other music I've doneover the years.
that kind of goes back to doingall that has to have your
fingerprints on it.
Like you said, if you have awhole team doing all that stuff
for you, it's not going to haveyour fingerprints on it.

(25:56):
It's all going to be generic,whatever.
some guys decided to do it.
Then as soon as the tour startedlast weekend.
It's like, Oh my God, justfinished time to get on the
road.
And then I get back from tourand it's like, Oh my God, first
festival since the album is up.
So now I need to shorten my tourset by 35 minutes and come up
with a festival version.
So I just spent all week on thatand working on that with my VJ.

(26:18):
So she would be ready for that.
And that was every single daylast week.
And I just got home late lastnight and I woke up this
morning.
I was like, Oh my God, I have noshows this weekend.
The set is done.
The festival set is done.
The album's out.
We just got to promote and I'mkind of okay.

Nik (26:34):
Yeah.

Sam (26:34):
So the day to day is always changing.

Nik (26:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It sounds like music is pretty24 7 for you Do you have stuff
outside of music that you'recreating space for in your

Sam (26:47):
I need to do a better job of that.
The gym is a good one and my gymschedule isn't as good as it was
right now.
Sometimes I'm only doing once ortwice a week But that helps a
lot.
And I'm always better.
I can tell you know that I cansee I guess I see that physique
to the screen.

Nik (27:02):
my mental health.
It's my therapy, bro.
It's up.
I haven't gone to the gym.
I guess I went Saturday, buteven just not going today, I
didn't go today.
And I've just been in a funkyass fucking mood all day.

Sam (27:15):
it's not same.

Nik (27:16):
no, I need it for my mental clarity.

Sam (27:18):
It's huge.

Nik (27:19):
yeah, it's important

Sam (27:20):
huge.
You're right.
Cooking was a big one for awhile, but I kind of got out of
that.
Now, I sort of fell out ofrhythm with that.
I was posting online.
I was posting stories, cooking.
That was like a really big onefor me.
I maybe we should get back intothat.
but dude, I honestly, man, I gotto do a better job of finding
more about these days.

Nik (27:34):
Yeah.
I had West End on here a littlewhile ago and we conversation
about that.
Just about, the importance ofhaving, I don't know, just
non-music stuff, like real, likejust real life stuff.

Sam (27:45):
Do you see, are there any common kind of things you're
seeing other artists do thatseem to be good balancing
activities for them?

Nik (27:54):
Yeah, just getting outside, as a music producer that, yeah,
if I, I call you guys theproduction gremlins,

Sam (28:01):
bro, I got a little cretin yeah, dude, yup, yup,

Nik (28:05):
in the, studio all day, like never seeing sunshine at
all.
So, actually, right before, wegot on before we were going to
connect, I did what I call a hotboy walk.
And I, so I just go outside.
I'll do like a 15, 20 minutewalk, take your shirt off, get
some sunshine.
I just put on some of yourtracks just to listen like I
told you, I did an exercisetoday, so I was in a little.

(28:27):
I can't, I was like, I can't bebringing funky energy into this
fucking

Sam (28:30):
yeah, no way.

Nik (28:31):
going to go do a hot boy walk and shift the energy.
And so that's just one simplelittle thing, but I think any
kind of, outdoor activities arealways going to be good.
I think Weston was saying hejust plays Pickleball or tennis
or some shit like that, But justsomething to get out and do that
I think the other big one is isalso like having non producer
friends.

(28:52):
That's a big one you know, a lotof my friends and clients have
talked about it just like, youknow It's so rad to have all the
producer homies But it's alsoyou know We just end up just
still talking about music allthe time still just nerding out
so to have You Like a place anda community or a group of
friends that you can go to whereyou actually really shut that
part of your brain off for a

Sam (29:12):
Huge.
Yeah.

Nik (29:13):
think it's important.

Sam (29:14):
Yeah.
I think if I did the hot boywalk, I would have people be
calling the cops on me.
I got to get rid of a littlemore stubborn belly fat Um, I,

Nik (29:22):
That's a big part of it.
That's a big part of it is likeactually having no fucking shame
or like regardless where you'reat, you seeing the same thing.
seeing this one girl, she'slike, can girls do it too?
I was like, dude, she had herfucking sports bra and it was
like a week of her preparingherself.
And she like sent me a video.
She's like, I finally fuckingdid it She's like, I don't care.

(29:42):
It was breakthrough for her.

Sam (29:43):
Yeah, sure.

Nik (29:44):
over the fear of, judgment.
So it's

Sam (29:46):
I want to get back where I used to love playing basketball.
I want to get back into that,that to the pickleball point,
that would be great.
And, as far as the friendsthing, I'm so blessed in that
my, I have a great network ofartists, buddies that I talk to,
every day.
interestingly enough, you'd besurprised how little music we
talk about sometimes, and it'sfunny because it's all, most of
us really think about most ofthe time, but, but when we're

(30:08):
all growing out, we're like veryrarely, you know, we just catch
up a little bit about it, butthen it's just like a lot of
other shit.

Nik (30:14):
Jason Ross one of the dudes in

Sam (30:17):
One of my, one of my best friends and he's right in Yup.

Nik (30:20):
the homie also.

Sam (30:22):
Oh yeah.

Nik (30:23):
He mentioned that as well.
I he mentioned

Sam (30:25):
That's chat.
That's

Nik (30:27):
with like, yeah,

Sam (30:28):
you.
Did you, did you have Monrecently?
Really?

Nik (30:30):
He was on, just a while back.
Yeah, but we had known eachother from L.
A.
from like, probably likeliterally 10 years

Sam (30:36):
Oh, sick, dude., I could see that.
I could see, I could see this inyour energy.
You guys could get along Yeah,the best.

Nik (30:44):
So let's, bring it back to anyone out there that's
listening, that is an artistthat's on this journey, that's
coming up in the game, like whatkind of advice would you give
them?

Sam (30:56):
Man, um, persistence is a big one.
I mean, the thing I was sayingearlier, but I think we touched
on that already about keepingyour eye on your own influences,
and, creating your own sort ofsound and remembering, that, it
has to all come from you at theend of the day, creatively, but
I think aside from thatpersistence, and consistency are
really key, I've definitely donewell over my 10, 000 hours on

(31:17):
this, it's like, you know, justdoing and doing and doing and
doing And you can do all theright things and not have, you
can check all the boxes, you canmake great music, make great
social posts, make good friendsin the industry, get an agent.
You can do all this and stillnot get results you're happy
with.
Sometimes it takes just doingall of those things over and

(31:38):
over and over and over again.
So I think consistency is a hugeone.
And also to some extent.
You know, maintaining some sortof semblance of stoicism, not
getting too high.
I don't know if I used the rightword there, but like not too
high, not too low.
Trying to, you know, celebrateyour highs.
Don't get too down when you'rein the pits.
And when you do, talk to somebuddies about it.

(32:01):
Try to make sure you can have acruising altitude.

Nik (32:03):
Oh, bro.
Yeah, I think you just nailedthat.
Especially that talking topeople when things get low

Sam (32:10):
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.

Nik (32:11):
literally like Just such a huge part of my life is getting
to be the person that people

Sam (32:17):
That's cool.
That's awesome,

Nik (32:18):
you know, I'm on the,

Sam (32:19):
But you probably need that too,

Nik (32:21):
That's the thing, dude, is I just, I'm finally learning
that lesson.
I'm like, I've always been therock and I'm been the support,
but now I'm finally learningthat.
How to, just reach out whenthings aren't going good.
and it takes vulnerability andit takes honesty, but fuck, it's
a superpower.
And also seeing the consequencesof if you don't, and you're just
white knuckling fucking life,holding onto the steering wheel

(32:42):
as hard as you can, trying topush, push, push.
And you're just carrying all ofthis heavy baggage with you.
Like it's going to catch up withyou and

Sam (32:48):
man.
It

Nik (32:50):
and you're going to spiral out, you know?

Sam (32:51):
Yeah, dude, it'll weigh you down.
And I can't tell you how manytimes my group of buddies, the
same group that Jason wastalking about, that same group
has just talked me out of beingjust in such like a crappy
headspace about everything, andI can tell when it's happening
and I'll jump in and I'll justsend a whole novel to the group
chat, you know, and, And some,somebody will start poking and
asking questions and startsaying the right things and just

(33:14):
talking through.
And, yeah, I can't tell you howmany times that, that's really
just helped to turn my mindsetaround.

Nik (33:19):
yeah, it's having those buddies, having that circle,
having that community, and thenalso having the courage to be
real and be vulnerable

Sam (33:29):
Not being afraid to ruin the vibe

Nik (33:31):
Yeah.
When someone asks you like howyou're doing, you're like, Oh,
I'm good.
I'm fine.
It's like, no

Sam (33:35):
just or or you just hit the unsolicited, all right, boys, I
got a vent, boom, know?

Nik (33:41):
Yeah, I need that, man.
That's, great.
Now, I mean, I guess we're kindof answering that question here,
leaning on other people forsupport.
but we were talking about howconsistency and persistence is
important, and like you said,it's when you're going and
you're working and sometimesstill not seeing the results
needing to just keep going anddig even deeper.

(34:04):
How do you push yourself throughthose moments

Sam (34:07):
sometimes you almost don't.
Sometimes, you just have enoughthings on the books that just
simply putting one foot in frontof the other and trudging
through things will justeventually kind of happen to put
you in a little bit of a betterspace.
You know, sometimes it's aboutjust marching forward even if
you don't know how to digyourself out.
You know, you just gotta ifyou're not happy with how things
are going, you just got to kindof just keep going, and other

(34:29):
times, the other times, you gotto figure out when a story when
it's a situation that you wantAnd whether that means, telling
people about things that youaren't happy about and seeing
what you can do to figure itout.
Sometimes it takes venting topeople.
I can't tell you how many timesI've vented at my team to my
team, you know, and said, Hey,like, I feel like we need to be
doing a better job of this.
I'm not happy with how we'relooking with this, you know, if

(34:49):
your team is good and if they'rethere for you, they'll listen
and they'll, Hear you out, butit's hard to do that by
yourself.
Sometimes it's, you know, yougot to, like we were saying
earlier, talk to other peopleabout it.
But yeah, sometimes, like Isaid, it's about, it's a, it's
about half.
It's about pushing when youdon't even want to push, not
waiting for motivation, youknow, just being like, hey,
things aren't going the way Iwant right now, but I'm just

(35:10):
going to keep going anyway, youknow, and even if you don't have
the motivation, sometimes yougot to have those days where
it's like, you know what,actually.
Right.
I don't have it.
I don't have it today.
And as long as you avoid gettingin too much of a rut for too
long, it's good to take a zeroday and be like, You know what?
I'm gonna sit on my ass today.
You know, sometimes you have todo it

Nik (35:28):
Oh, for sure, dude.
I had a couple of those dayslike a week ago.
I

Sam (35:32):
Big, right?

Nik (35:33):
was more like a week.
I was like, you know, this week,I don't think I'm going to do
that much.
I just going to fucking chill.

Sam (35:39):
Dude.
it's like that, it's like thatmovie Office Space when he like
stops just giving a shit.
You, sometimes you gotta dothat.
You really do.

Nik (35:46):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
we're not machines, man.
We that, you know, it's likeeven just hearing this, like
there's, it is a pretty 24 sevenkind of nonstop grind, you know,
especially like when things arehappening and you're like, I,
now I'm touring and I got afucking album coming out.
It's like we're creating almosta lifestyle that requires us to
be a machine, when no matterwhat we do, we're never going to

(36:06):
be machines.
We're always still going to behuman, and it's important that
we take care of our, you know,little human selves

Sam (36:12):
you do.
It is, man.
There are periods when I wasfinishing the album, as well as
playing shows, as well as likeeverything that comes with all
that, and I was also like goingout doing photo shoots for the
album, filming content for thealbum, and at the same time, I
was so in my head about thealbum, I had spent so long on
it, and it was, my biggest focusin the world, but nobody had

(36:34):
heard it.
And I believed in it, but thatweird disconnect you get when
you believe in it, but you're sosick of it because you've heard
it so much.
And then your brain convincesyou it sucks, but you know, it
doesn't because we learned howto sort of negotiate that mind
field.
But still It's only in yourhead, and it's all you live with
every day, and then you're alsogoing out filming content for
it.
And you're like, oh my god, arepeople even gonna like it?

(36:56):
And then you go out for a coupledays, and you do a few shows,
and then a day of contentshooting is tacked to the end of
that show run.
And you get back for two days,and then they're like, hang on,
this song is due.
And it's like, oh my god.
God, the kick drum sucks.
And it's like, what am I goingto do?
Am I going to switch the kickdrum at the end?
And then you do it and it soundsworse.
And then it's due.
And then you have a show thenext day.
And then there's 11 more songsto finish.

(37:17):
And that goes on for a yearstraight.
And it's just like every day.
And it's like any day that youlose, you're like, hang on.
I'm just, I know that at the endI don't have as much time as I
need to do all this by thedeadline.
So it's like, all right, well,every day that I lose is, you
know, like, I'm just going to befurther from where I want to be
when this all thing has to turnin.

(37:38):
so you just in this space, it'slike you become a machine.
And to your point, you got toremember, like, hang on, hang
on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
I can't do this all the time.
You need to find a way.
To kind of chill out a littlebit.

Nik (37:52):
Yeah, man.
So when's your, when's, when areyou planning your vacation for
yourself

Sam (37:57):
it's so funny.
Um,

Nik (37:58):
coming?

Sam (37:59):
yeah, Max Freeman, who is a absolute goat of an agent.
Out in L.
A.
to, he's a super, he's a superagent.
He not only,

Nik (38:06):
he's the man.

Sam (38:07):
you know, you know, right?

Nik (38:09):
I would not, I mean, definitely know of him.
We're like homies, but I tellhim I want to get him on the
podcast.

Sam (38:14):
Yeah.
Oh, I.

Nik (38:15):
I'll get him on.

Sam (38:16):
I will.
He's great talking about thisstuff.
I will actually.
he's not only a great agent asfar as, getting shows and the
things that an agent does, buthe believes in the project and
makes me feel believed indespite the fact he has like,
you know, 20 some clients orwhatever.
And I always have the time ofday from him.
he hit me up the other day andhe goes, Sam, this period of
time after the tour is over, hegoes, you know, I'm not booking

(38:37):
shows for a few weeks becauseunless we get something really
good that we really, really wantto do, he goes, I'm, and I
literally, and I refresh the,touring grid and our little, you
know, calendar and it's just acouple of weeks of red, you
know, and he's just like, Sam,he's like, you need an end date.
You need something, you know,and once this thing is over, and
he said, make no mistake, youknow, you're going to get driven

(38:59):
into the ground.
I'm driving into the groundbefore that, but.
He's like, you're not going todo it yourself.
So I need you to do it for me.
He's like, I'm going to forceyou to do it

Nik (39:07):
Yeah.

Sam (39:08):
to answer your question.
Probably like March, March, midto late March, early April.
We'll probably, yeah, the

Nik (39:15):
That's the nature of the game.
So how do you stay balanced inthe meantime?

Sam (39:22):
Uh, I didn't, I haven't been, That's not the pretty
answer.
this week I will, this week I,I'll do a better job because
like I said, this, is the firstweek where I don't have like an
immediate pressing thing.

Nik (39:36):
alright.
Hot boy walk.
Here's my, here's my thing, man.
20 minute boy walk at least oncea day.
That, keep it simple.
day.
Put your headphones on.
Put some happy music.
Walk around.
I don't know if it's sunny outwhere you are.
If it's sunny, you gotta pop thetop.
Get some sunshine.
Get some vitamin D.

Sam (39:52):
Yeah.
Okay.
I live in a beautiful spot forthat here in channel side Tampa.
So, okay.
I'll take you up on that.

Nik (39:59):
Do it, bro.

Sam (39:59):
Yeah, yeah, I will.
It's gonna be, folk metal,viking metal.
It's not gonna be very happymusic, but that's, but, yeah,
yeah, we'll be, we'll be going.

Nik (40:07):
that was the other question I was going to ask earlier.
Was I did see you and SevenLions, playing this, this, like,
Viking metal drinking song.
and, and and it, and you wereinvolved in that song in some
way.
I need to story behind this,because fucking

Sam (40:22):
this will be perhaps the most polarizing song I've put
out.
It will be one of the mostpolarizing songs I know Jeff's
put out in a while.
Jeff put me on early in thepandemic, to a band called
Ensoferum.
They are a, I think, probablythe world's biggest folk metal
band.
They're out of Finland, and it'sall, I mean, their last song,
their previous album was allSongs of the Sea.

(40:45):
You know, they have a, A songcalled Run Women Victory.
it's like, you know, very muchstuff that makes you want to,
and I love, obviously, you know,I love like folk influence
anything and their stuff is allfolklore driven, Norse mythology
kind of stuff, and so, it's veryimmersive.
Jeff put me on to them in thebeginning of the pandemic and I,
they have been my most listenedto act since that day, I'm

(41:06):
upset.
I wish, no, I wish them.
All the time.
We've always, Jeff and I havewanted to, for years make a
drinking song.
We both share a similar love fora lot of that stuff.
A lot of like similar love for,you know, they get a Irish pub.
You're not gonna drink, youknow, mug with a handle beer.
Slashing thinking, oh no, no,hey,

Nik (41:25):
Yeah Yeah.

Sam (41:27):
So, I'm always trying to make stuff like that, and we've
always talked about making stufflike that, and it's always a
little too cheesy, it's neverquite right, and one day I made
a demo, and I sent it to him,and I was like, dawg, what do
you think of this?
Should we, like, try to do this?
And he goes, yeah, like, let'srun it, and I forget which one
of us was like, do we tryEnsoferum?
Do we, like, see if they couldmaybe start and these guys, if

(41:49):
you look these guys up, theyare, these guys are legit
Vikings.
I mean, they are full onfucking, you know, they're the
real deal.
And, Man, they hit us back andthey're like, yo, we love the
song.
We'd love to, we'd love to, Iwas like, Oh, shit.
So, so they sang on the songand, you know, drink, drink,
drink till the dawn arise.
and, this song is a really good,it's a really good artistic

(42:12):
exercise that I would say thatanybody listening to the podcast
could probably take somethingfrom.
Cause I've learned a lot from itis, you have to keep your eye on
the ball.
I.
Love the song so much Jeff lovesthe song so much and when we
play the song a lot of the crowdLoves the song so much But there
are always people and you can'tsee them because they're in

(42:33):
between the people jumping upand down But I'll read comments
online and I'll see things.
I remember somebody saidsomething online I forget where
I saw it but somebody else I waslike tagged in like a thread and
somebody said like I saw Shardekto jumping up and down doing
this pirate song.
I think he referred to it as thecringiest thing he'd ever seen
in his life.
And I was like and at first thatlike stung.
then I remember, I was like,Hang on, this is like the

(42:55):
greatest lesson in following theMuse, because somebody has to be
brave enough to do it.
And there are so many fans whoare like, I need this song every
day of my life.
Where is it?
Give it to me.
And it's very polarizing.
There aren't a lot of people whoare like, it's all right.
There are people who are like,this is incredible.
When there are people who arelike, this sucks, but I believe
in it and I can't make the songand play it if I don't believe

(43:17):
in it.
Same with Jeff.
And, I think it's a really goodexercise in just being
artistically brave and like theRick Rubin mindset, in some
places maybe the audience doescome last and if you're just
following your gut, doing whatyou like, people who like that
as well will find you.
And, you know, it won't be foreverybody.
And if, when I play it in theset, if you don't like it, you
just, that's your piss break forthree minutes, you know, and
then you come back.

Nik (43:39):
I love that.
I mean, first off, I will sayI'm a big metal head I'm on a
Marth.
I fucking

Sam (43:46):
Great.
Great.

Nik (43:47):
good old, some good old Viking metal.

Sam (43:49):
Yep.
Yep.

Nik (43:49):
I will, I will be one of those people jumping up and down
in the crowd to that song, butme of Avicii, who is forever
will be my number one favoriteartist Came out to ultra in
whatever, 2017 or something

Sam (44:04):
Yeah, it was earlier than that.
Oh

Nik (44:06):
earlier.
Yeah.
With 2013, maybe then, with afucking

Sam (44:10):
With the country band.
Yep.

Nik (44:12):
like a banjos and singers and half of, you know, probably
more than half of the audience,like literally like left, they
just like, what the fuck isthis?
And then.
You know, a month later, wake meup is like the number one most
played song on Spotify

Sam (44:26):
Yep.
Yep.
Yep.

Nik (44:28):
is, I think an artist role to take risks and to push the
boundaries, and if you're neverpolarizing anybody ever, you're
probably, just painting withinthe lines way too much, you
know?
So I love to see you doing that.
And, Sullivan King's a greatexample of that as well.
I used to teach at iconcollective.
He was a student of mine.
I him very, very early on in hiscareer as well.

(44:50):
And like, he was, it was cool.
It was like.
He was trying to be like Swedishhouse mafia in the making like
big room house and shit.
then one day we dude, likeyou've been playing the guitar,
like your whole life, like, whydon't you fucking bring your
guitar into it?
he just like kind of took thatchance of like, what if I just
fucked the fuck around and foundout, you know, what if I just

(45:10):
like started playing some metalon top of this, you know, bass
music shit.
And it was like, cool.
And he just completely like upthe doors.
Yeah.
So

Sam (45:19):
It's huge, huge,

Nik (45:21):
gotta take those risks, man.

Sam (45:23):
man.
It's such, such an important wayof thinking.
And and in a similar lane,, Icome from a jam band background
and, that couldn't be muchfurther from melodic music.

Nik (45:33):
yeah.
Yeah.

Sam (45:34):
but once I started working the guitar into the live set I
realized most of my strengthsplaying in the jam band were
from moments where it wasn'tjust a quick rockstar guitar
solo, like I do in the trivectasets, but really kind of.
These songs that the band woulddo would be these extended
improvisational sections.
I mean, it might be 15 minuteswhere before the song came back

(45:57):
for air for lyrics again, and itwasn't check Sam out playing the
guitar.
It was.
The guitar is the leadinstrument.
That's almost your tour guidetaking you through the journey
that the music is going on, youknow?
And there are artists, I knowPretty Lights has dabbled with
that when he returned andwhatnot, but there are not many
artists in the, I don't know, Iguess bigger standard EDM space,

(46:18):
that I think are playing a liveinstrument and taking the crowd
on a extended solo journey kindof thing like that.
Because again, I think it'sanother place where.
Like you said earlier, taste andskill set, combined and for me,
the big point of the skill setis knowing how to use the guitar
to sort of just tell a storythat doesn't rush to the peak.
But when you get there, you'relike, holy shit, how did we get

(46:39):
here?
This is so cool.
And, and so I started doing itand so this tour, I've started
to work that in.
This was another, it was like a,like you're just talking about
with Keaton.
It was like a scary but bold,let's see what happens.
And I had like a three plusminute solo towards the end of
my set.
And it starts way down.
It takes it.
All the way down likeenergetically and I'm I have the

(46:59):
volume knob on one and I'm doingvery gentle And I knew I was
like, you know I believe in thisand I'm gonna keep the energy
down For like two minutes andit's gonna be a whole thing
before it even gets up there andthen bringing it back home think
this is gonna work and and it'sright now.
It's three shows in it's myfavorite moment of the night.
So like To your point.
Yeah, it's about Doing thatbeing like, you know, take

(47:23):
risks, but same with theEncephalum song, you know, it's
just, but believe.

Nik (47:28):
I keep adding to this little, what's becoming almost
like a little checklist ofthese, like what I'm calling
these kind of like.
Headliner mindset qualities, youknow

Sam (47:38):
Yeah.
What do you got?

Nik (47:39):
I think that that one just came up Recently as well where
it's like just being aninnovator, you

Sam (47:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Nik (47:45):
I think being a headliner and what this sort of definition
that I'm coming up with is, isit's like, being at the
forefront of the way of beingthe person that is an innovator,
that's trying new things thatput that's pushing boundaries.
Cause if not your other optionis like, well, I'm just going to
do what's already being done.
Maybe I'm going to do it alittle bit differently, but I'm
just going to kind of like fitmyself into the box that already

(48:08):
exists.
In which case, like, well,you're never really going to be
at the forefront.
At the top, you know, you'realways going to be one or two
steps behind.
And so I think that that is justa quality and a characteristic
of this true kind of headlinerdefinition is just being an
innovator and being courageousto try new things and see what
happens and see what works.

Sam (48:26):
And I think there probably is a space for, it's not the
space I would recommend and it'snot the space I ever want to be,
but I think there is a smalllane for people who do want to
be headliners and don't want toinnovate or think like that.
I think it's hard to do, but Ithink it's more reserved for the
type who's like, we're justgoing to schmooze our way up,

(48:49):
have a big financial backingmaybe.
And just make big collabs withother relevant artists and know
the talent buyers and stuff likethat.
And we have, I won't say names,but you'll see them at
festivals, you know, and they'realways there and, it's always
the same kind of show they'redoing each time and it's never
taken risks, but it goes wellfor them.
It's just, you have to be reallylucky and you have to, a lot of

(49:10):
them aren't even artists thatare probably not listening to
the podcast, you know, they'rethey're they're, probably like,
They're probably more worriedabout like their portfolio and
whatnot, you know,

Nik (49:20):
yeah, no, it's true.
I mean, I had a good, episodewith, with MacJay a little while
know, he was saying, Yeah, he'sI, I produced for a bunch of
these fucking dudes,

Sam (49:29):
Yeah.
Oh, yes.

Nik (49:30):
just the real they're just the reality it's a product
that's being brought to themarketplace.
Some people aren't even makingtheir own shit and that's, it's
always been that way, you butRick Rubin is like my dream
guest.
I want I'm

Sam (49:40):
dude, sick.

Nik (49:41):
really wanting to just preach the message of tapping
into your, Heart and soul andyour highest frequency of
authenticity and like bring thatfucking Gift that only you can
bring out of the eight billionpeople in the world like you are
the only Sam trivecta can makewhat you can make so like why do

(50:02):
Go chase what everybody else isdoing.
You know, like take that inwardjourney and pull from the
fucking depths of your soul,whatever's in there, and share
that shit with the world.
And don't worry about if peoplelike it or not, you know, really
make it more about like youractual expression and almost
like your duty to yourself bringthat art forward, you

Sam (50:22):
Oh, my God.
For sure.
You keep your eye on that andpeople and that's how you'll
make something that people willbe drawn to.
I, I even remember it.
The best sort of microcosm ofthat was playing in the jam band
and we would get really lockedin.
And when I tuned out the crowdand I was just listening to the
guys around me and we're havinga conversation with the
instruments, we would get whatwe would call it, where you

(50:44):
would just all be locked in andit would only last for a for a
matter of seconds, you know,but, and, and you'd have it and,
and, and there's nothing likeit.
I don't quite get it anymore nowthat I'm not playing in an
improvisational band, but Iremember what it felt like, and
I remember how it goes And themoment I'd look up and like see
the crowd and be like, uh, isthat working?
You want some more of that?
Suddenly the mindset totallychanges.

(51:05):
Yeah.

Nik (51:05):
Yeah.

Sam (51:06):
Yes.
So, and it's just, you're sayinglike, that's it.
Right.
Like, um, yeah.

Nik (51:12):
I'm so glad you bring that up because I was in a band and
in high school many years agoand had that's how we would warm
up is we would just jam.
I play the and we would justlike I just throw a beat down
someone fucking bass playerwould throw the guitar player
the bass player would startfucking around then it's like
that.
And then there would be thatmoment where it would just, some
shit would click.
It was like the muse wouldvisit.
And and I remember even havingalmost like an out of body

(51:34):
experience I'm like, I'm likewatching us do this from like
the corner of the room.
And spiritual experience of, of,Four people's energies coming
together.
Yeah, so I can imagine, youknow, you don't really, as a
producer, just on your laptop,you know, you can tap into flow,
but it's different when you'retapping into other people an
improvised kind of, kind ofvibe.
And I, just the other night.

(51:56):
I just got that a little tasteof that with like I just went to
my buddy's house and we wereplaying the guitar and it was
like he was playing a riff andthen I was just kind of matching
it until eventually the littleTetris pieces fit together and
it just click and like we foundthat riff and I was just like yo
like just hold that like let'sjust play that for 10 minutes
straight because it feels sofucking

Sam (52:14):
Oh, there's nothing like

Nik (52:15):
got finally got to taste a little bit of that

Sam (52:18):
Oh, there's nothing

Nik (52:19):
I wish every, you know, artist and, and, and producer
could really tap into that.
Cause he has like, you don't getit when you're just like
dragging samples into Ableton,you know, it's not the same.

Sam (52:27):
You don't, man.
You don't.

Nik (52:30):
Yeah,

Sam (52:31):
I'm glad you got that, man.
I'm glad.
That's that's

Nik (52:33):
me too.
Me Yeah, definitely, definitelyinspired me, but, man, it's so
great to connect with you.
You're so I really appreciateyou coming on and glad we were
able to make this happen.
but dude, yeah, you are killingit.
I think, are you coming toAustin on your, on your tour?

Sam (52:47):
Is it concourse project?
Is that is that a venue inAustin

Nik (52:50):
Concourse, that's the spot.
Alright, I'm gonna have to comeout and catch I wanna this three
minute guitar solo.

Sam (52:56):
Hey, come on, man.
Yeah, it's on me.
Come on through.
We got you.

Nik (52:59):
Fuck yeah.
yeah, brother.
Well, thanks for making the timeto come through, bro.

Sam (53:03):
Thank you.
Appreciate it, man.
Thanks for having me.