August 6, 2024 • 57 mins
Our guest for this episode is Dr. Renee Exelbert — psychologist, elite personal trainer, and two-time breast cancer survivor. In this episode, Dr. Exelbert shares her remarkable story: from treating cancer patients to becoming one herself, to reclaiming her body through a healing mindset, consistent hard work, simple self-care, and unwavering determination.
She discusses how lifestyle changes, visualization techniques, and the power of the mind-body connection all play crucial roles in overcoming health and personal challenges. Dr. Exelbert also offers practical advice on supporting loved ones through illness and maintaining balance in professional and personal life.
As founder of the Metamorphosis Center and author of "Chemo Muscles," Dr. Exelbert is a dynamic example of turning trauma into resilience, personal growth, and purpose. This episode offers valuable wisdom on living authentically and finding our hidden strengths in times of great adversity.
Connect with Dr. Exelbert -
LinkedIn: @Renee_Exelbert
Instagram: @dr.renee.exelbert
Twitter X: @ReneeExelbert
Website: Drexelbert.com
Book: Chemo Muscles: Lessons Learned from Being a Psycho-Oncologist and Cancer Patient (Kindle and hardcover versions available on Amazon)
Website: www.kellybhaney.com
Email: info@kellybhaney.com
Instagram: @kellybhaney
Facebook: Kelly B Haney Wellness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelly B Haney (00:07):
Welcome to the Heal and Stay Healed podcast,
where we talk about healing and,more importantly, staying
healed from chronic disease andother ailments and issues.
We'll cover all the crazythings about health and life the
good, the bad, the ugly and thehilarious.
My name is Kelly and I'm asurvivor and overcomer of severe
(00:31):
autoimmune disease, and I can'twait to share with you what
I've learned so that you canheal and stay healed too.
Thanks for listening and enjoythe show.
Welcome back and thank you somuch for joining me.
(00:55):
Today.
We have an extraordinary guestfor this episode.
She is Dr Renee Exelbert,licensed psychologist, certified
elite personal trainer andtwo-time breast cancer survivor,
whose story is trulyinspirational.
After serving as staffpsychologist at the Cancer
(01:18):
Center for Kids at NYU'sWinthrop Hospital, dr Exelbert
received her own cancerdiagnosis.
This led her to found theMetamorphosis Center for
Psychological and PhysicalChange, where she integrates
psychotherapy and exercisefocusing on the mind-body
connection.
Dr Exelbert is the author ofChemo Muscles Lessons Learned
(01:41):
from being a Psycho-oncologistand cancer patient.
End is a regular expert mediacontributor.
She maintains a privatepractice in New York, is an
adjunct professor at NYU andserves as chair of the Advocacy,
Education and AwarenessGovernance Board for Fight
Cancer Global.
In our conversation today, drExelbert shares her remarkable
(02:04):
healing journey, havingface-down breast cancer, as I
mentioned not once, but twice,as well as other tragic
experiences.
She discusses the lifestylechanges that made a real
difference, her insights on themind-body connection and the
impact of a healing mindset.
We also explore balancingprofessional life and motherhood
(02:25):
, the importance of self-care,dealing with health anxiety
after severe illness and howloved ones can best support
those in difficult times,notably the day we recorded.
This was a significantmilestone in her journey, which
she'll tell us all about.
Dr Exelbert is someone who'sfaced terrible adversities and,
(02:47):
rather than developing a victimmentality, has used a growth
mindset to emerge stronger thanever mentally, emotionally and,
as you'll hear, certainlyphysically.
Despite the serious subjects wediscuss.
This was a truly enjoyableconversation, thanks to the
positivity and warmth that DrExelbert radiates.
(03:09):
I'm thrilled to have had thechance to gain so much wisdom
from such an inspirationalperson through this conversation
and to be able to share it withyou now.
So here we go with Dr ReneeExelbert.
Hello and welcome, dr Exelbert.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (03:27):
Hello, I'm so happy to be here.
Kelly B Haney (03:30):
Thank you so much for being here.
I have been really lookingforward to this conversation.
There is, I know, just so muchthat we have to learn from you
today.
I'm so grateful that you'regiving us your time to share
your experience and all of yourwisdom and insight with us.
Before we just dive in, I wouldlove to ask you one of my
(03:54):
favorite questions to ask people, which is do you have a
favorite quote, short poem ormusic lyric that has positively
impacted you or influenced youthat you'd like to share with us
?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (04:09):
I actually, when I think about poetry, I
always um yield towards HenryDavid Thoreau, um, and I love
his poem about sucking themarrow out of life.
I love that, but in terms of um, a sentiment that I think of a
lot.
I think it's my own quote andit says we are who we are, not
in spite of the things thatwe've been through, but because
(04:32):
of them.
And some people don't like thatquote because they say I'm not,
my experience, I'm not this badthing that happened to me and
we're not.
We never are this bad thingthat happened to me and we're
not.
We never are.
But I feel like having beenthrough cancer twice, I feel
like we are not the same personthat we were prior to our
(04:52):
journey and that all of thethings that happened to us, good
or bad, very much change who weare and it's those things that
actually create a newer versionof ourselves.
That, hopefully, is all aboutpost trauma growth.
So I like that.
Kelly B Haney (05:13):
I love that.
I just have to say, as you werespeaking, I wrote down post
traumatic growth right beforeyou said it.
There you go, minds think alike.
Yes, and you mentioned Thoreau,who I have several of his books
sitting here behind me.
He was my favorite philosopher,so I think we have a lot in
common.
Dr Exelbert, absolutely.
(05:34):
Can you start by giving us asmuch or as little as you want to
tell us about your healthjourney, what you've been
through, what you've overcome,what you're still overcoming?
Please share with us whateveryou feel comfortable sharing.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (05:49):
Yeah.
So in 2007, I was diagnosedwith breast cancer.
I was positive at that likeliterally positive at the time,
that I wasn't going to havecancer.
My mom always had what do theycall it?
Highly dense breasts and I kepttelling the doctors no, no, no,
(06:12):
my mom has these dense breasts.
She's always had, you know,concerns.
But I did.
I was.
I was diagnosed with breastcancer, I had two really young
kids and at the time it wasreally, really overwhelming
because I had to undergo reallyradical surgery and I I suffered
(06:32):
a lot of blows to my personalidentity, what I thought was my
identity, my sense of beauty, mysense of fragility and, just,
you know, being in the world andwhether or not I was going to
have a shortened life, thinkingabout my family, my husband.
So that was when that was 2007.
(06:55):
And I had less than a 5% chanceof ever getting breast cancer
again because of the surgerythat I had, as well as the
hormone treatment that I was on.
And during that time periodwhen I was recovering, I
researched everything abouthealing and keeping cancer at
(07:16):
bay and I became a clean eaterand I used to inject sugar like
heroin youffy, taffy and sourpatch kids.
It was my drug of choice and,um, I became a clean eater.
I became really, reallyinvested in nutrition and
exercise.
Um, and during several, severalyear time period, I became so
(07:39):
invested in exercise that Ihooked up with a personal
trainer who was a bodybuildingpro and she used to do these
bodybuilding shows and I startedgetting ripped and people you
know were coming over to me andthey're like are you doing a
show?
I'm like there is no way in theworld that I'm going to stand
on her heels and a bikini andflex my muscles on stage.
(08:03):
That'll never happen.
Heels and a bikini and flex mymuscles on stage That'll never
happen.
And, uh, during this time, I wasalso writing a book that I was
very much not ready to put outto the world because it was so
vulnerable and raw.
Um, but around the five yearmark, which is very significant
in the cancer world, um, Ithought to myself you know what?
It would be a great way tohonor regaining control over my
(08:25):
body by doing a bodybuildingshow.
And I became one of these womenwho stands in stripper heels in
their bikini and flexes theirmuscles.
And it was a very empoweringexperience to me because it was
demonstrative to me that Iregained control of my body, and
during this time period, I wasso invested in clean eating and
(08:49):
nutrition.
I ended up becoming a certifiedpersonal trainer and I opened up
a center called theMetamorphosis Center for
Psychological and PhysicalChange, where I integrate
psychotherapy and exercise, andI also use this very unique
blend of visualizations to, youknow, augment somebody's journey
.
Visualizations are very, verypowerful for me, something that
(09:14):
I use all of the time inachieving my goals, and so I
incorporate that as well with mywork.
And so that was five years outof cancer.
And then I continued to writemy book and I underwent so many
personality changes um, lots oftherapy, lots of uh, working on
(09:35):
who I really am outside of, likeall of the superficial stuff.
And, um, I was really ready toput my book out to the world.
Um, and then, all of a sudden,I was re-diagnosed with cancer
which was like, came out of theblue.
Um, never, ever would havethought that.
Um, when I, when I found thislittle thing on my breast, I
(09:57):
went to both my uh, my umsurgeon, and my gynecologist and
both of them assured me it'snothing.
Um and I, I had a recurrence.
They're still not actually sureif it was a recurrence or a new
cancer, but it was in the samesame spot.
Um, and because I was young andbecause the cancer was
aggressive, my, my oncologisttook my case to the tumor board
(10:20):
and they voted that I shouldhave radiation and chemo, even
though my, you know, the tumorwas very small and didn't
actually meet that criteria.
Um, so I, you know, went throughradiation and chemo and I had
already been living a very cleanlife and I had many people who
said to me you should have justsat on your butt and ate bonbons
(10:41):
, so you don't need to do allthis.
And there was definitely a partof me that felt really
frustrated that I had worked sohard to be healthy and this
happened again.
But the way that I have learnedto look at it is that I really,
thank goodness, sailed throughchemo and I have been very
healthy since, knock on wood.
And had I not been taking suchgood care of myself, who knows
(11:01):
what would have happened?
And had I not been taking suchgood care of myself, who knows
what have happened?
Um, and had I not been sohypervigilant about my health,
who knows if I would have evenfound the second cancer?
Uh, so I don't, I don't buyinto that.
You know, sit on your butt andyou know what's going to happen
is going to happen.
I firmly believe in epigeneticsand that we have the capacity to
(11:24):
turn on or off genes that arerelated to health or disease.
So I went through radiation andchemo, and I would literally go
through chemo on Monday, be inbed for two days, then go out to
Long Island and see my ownpatients come back and you know,
by the weekend I was in the gymand I did this for eight months
(11:47):
and, um, I, the whole time Iwas in the gym as much as I
could be, and fortunately I gotthrough that.
And, um, I have also had skincancer twice.
Wow, which was after the breastcancers.
Kelly B Haney (12:04):
Wow.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (12:04):
I was like, did I grow up in a nuclear power
plant or what?
And so you know it's sort ofit's wild, because sometimes
when you've gone through traumaor adversity, it feels like
what's next, like you knowwhen's the next shoe going to
drop, but I kind of just keeppushing through.
(12:26):
There are people who go throughso much tragedy and I am
extremely blessed.
I'm extremely blessed to behere.
I'm extremely blessed for allthe treatment that I've had and
that I'm healthy, and so thathas sort of.
Today I was telling you earlieris a very significant day for
me, because tonight I'm takingmy last anti-estrogen pill that
(12:49):
I've been on for 15 years.
That is so awesome To mark theend of cancer treatment God
willing, forever.
I'm doing another bodybuildingshow this Saturday, which I'm
super excited about.
That's my story.
Um, I very much believe in mind, body.
(13:10):
I very much believe that wehave a lot of control over our
destiny.
Um, and when bad things happen,I feel like we have a lot
within us to uh, change thecircumstance and do the best
that we can to, you know, to getthrough it and to definitely,
as we mentioned before, havepost trauma growth.
Kelly B Haney (13:31):
Yeah, oh, thank you so much.
I look at it two different ways.
I mean having experiencedchronic illness.
Certainly we have verydifferent stories in many ways,
but very similar things in thatI can relate to a lot of what
you're saying about the feelingsand the mindset and the growth.
(13:51):
I think we always, when facedwith adversity, especially with
our health, we do have twooptions, and one is to give up
and accept it for what it is,and the other is not to give up,
not to accept it and to fightit.
And before we dig into morequestions about your story, I
(14:11):
think just focusing on right now, today, first of all,
congratulations.
This is a huge day.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (14:19):
It is.
It's such a nice connectionbecause it is a very special day
for me, so you will always be apart of that.
So thank you.
Kelly B Haney (14:26):
Oh, thank you.
And then the show, and I knowyou recently competed in a show,
not too long ago.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (14:33):
Did.
Yeah, it's great.
And you know, the other thingthat I am actually sort of
interested in my own brain rightnow because one of the
significant things that I didn'tmention and I'm sort of
wondering why I didn't.
But because I'm a psychologist,I always have to think about
what I did and why I didn'tRight.
But, like when I was diagnosedwith breast cancer, I was also
pregnant, um, and so I had tohave a termination of that
(14:55):
pregnancy.
So so much.
Kelly B Haney (14:57):
Yeah, that's.
We'll talk about your book in alittle bit, but I've read your
book and that I mean your storyis emotion provoking, we'll just
say that.
And just how raw and honest youare.
And of the whole story, that isdefinitely one of the more
challenging moments to readabout the forced termination of
what was a very wanted pregnancy.
(15:19):
And yeah, again, just goingback to you could either be
angry and bitter about that oryou could use it as an
opportunity for growth and justit's remarkable what you've done
, that you've obviously takenthe latter path and here you are
sharing with others and helpingothers who maybe aren't just
(15:39):
dealing with their own physicalissues but are dealing with
pregnancy loss as well.
So just thank you for yourvulnerability in your book here
today and I know in everythingyou do you're just very open and
honest.
I want to ask you about thecompetition.
You've got this one coming upon Saturday to mark this huge
milestone, but I know yourecently had one and you put a
post on LinkedIn, which I haveto credit my husband with
(16:04):
leading me to you, because youconnected with him several years
ago and he's been telling mejust what a remarkable person
you are and he showed me thatpost and you said you know, this
is you celebrating takingcontrol, regaining control of
your body.
Celebrating taking control,regaining control of your body,
(16:25):
that you have taken your bodyback, looking back on everything
you've been through and thatmoment, standing up on that
stage.
I would just love to hear theemotions you were feeling.
What were you feeling duringthat time?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (16:36):
Yeah, I, you know, I was sort of I was sort
of surprised that the momentwasn't the moment, like I didn't
need the moment.
I've been actually takingcontrol over my body for years.
You know, even this nextcompetition, you know, and even
(17:00):
taking my last pill tonight.
Um, you know, and even takingmy last pill tonight.
It's all beautiful and it's allwonderful and contributory
towards, you know, reclaimingcontrol and everything that I've
been through, but those momentswhere I shut the door on cancer
and I took control of my bodyagain happened so long ago and
(17:20):
happen on an everyday basis.
They really do.
I think for me it was moreabout, like you know, the first
time I did a competition, it wasfive years after cancer and I
thought that was it Right.
I thought, like I'm done, Iregained control of my body,
right, and then I got canceragain.
Um, and I haven't done a showsince.
So sort of thinking about, andmy body has changed.
(17:43):
I'm a little bit older than Iwas 12 years ago and so thinking
about, um, all that I've beenthrough, you know, and all that
life has brought, and um, andthen also having skin cancer
twice, like all of this stuff,it's sort of like that's a
moment of pride to just be ableto like, really push and you
(18:04):
know, and get back to like youknow, I'm still here, I'm still
going to get, I'm.
You still haven't gotten me,thank goodness, like I'm, you
know, I'm still strong and I'mstill here, and so that you know
that action is pretty cool.
Kelly B Haney (18:20):
Yeah that you know that action is pretty cool.
Yeah, I think about it a lot,never having experienced cancer,
but having experienced chronicillness where, you know, at 19
years old, I was told this ischronic, You're going to, you're
going to be dealing with thisforever.
And here I am today.
I've been 13 years free of mydisease, but that rings in my
(18:41):
head, that voice is really hardto completely expunge.
It's hard for me to say I'mcured, I will never deal with
this again.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (18:50):
No, I hear you.
I think that you know I haveseveral things to say to that.
My gynecologist once said to mecancer is the gift that keeps
giving and I live that becauseI've had so many things that
have been resultant from cancer.
But I also had a woman who wasa three-time cancer survivor say
to me you can't think aboutgetting cancer twice, you have
(19:13):
to think about it as a chronicillness.
And I remember when she saidthat, being so angry, I'm not
getting cancer again.
Right, I was so angry.
But you know, even when we shutthe door and you know we say
we're done, there's so much, uh,emotionally that people who
have experienced chronic illnessor medical trauma deal with.
(19:36):
So even when the door is shut,god willing, right, you always
deal with that and you alwayschange your life and your
behaviors, hopefully as a resultof what you've been through.
And so, yes, I hope I never,ever, get cancer.
I hope I never have to dealwith that.
I think that that thought orthat fear will always lurk in
every person's mind who has hada chronic illness or severe
(20:00):
medical trauma.
But I try not to live in thatspace and I tried to live in
like I'm going to be the verybest that I can be and be the
healthiest that I can be.
And what can I do in my control, you know, to overcome whatever
it is that I have or had.
Kelly B Haney (20:16):
Yeah, Everything we're talking about involves
mindset.
So, as a as a professional andthen also having your lived
experience, can you just talkabout the role that mindset
plays and the mind bodyconnection, which I know is
something that you believe inwholeheartedly?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (20:39):
I mean well, first of all, like everything
that we put inside our bodies,whether it be news or reading or
friendships, music, food,alcohol, drugs all of that
impacts our functioning and so Itry very hard to be mindful of
that.
And, as I said I, I'm a cleaneater and I'm an exercise, I'm a
(21:02):
gym rat, um, and so thosethings are joy to me.
I used to go on vacation andlike, and if I saw a candy store
, I'd be like yeah.
And now I go on vacation and Ilook for the first gym and I
salivate over what greatmachines they have and like I
can use that gym and I get veryexcited, which is probably weird
(21:25):
.
But so that's one component.
But in terms of likevisualizations and where we
focus our thoughts, I am a hugebeliever in seeing positivity.
There was a really importantstudy done in 1970 by this man,
carl Simonton, where he hadcancer patients focus on people
(21:48):
with cancer, focus on Pac-Maneating up their tumors and there
was a dramatic reduction in thesize of tumors for people who
did this on a regular basis.
And I very much believe in thepower of thought and, in terms
of the mind body connection,what that really means is that
when we think about things in apositive way, it changes our
(22:13):
physicality.
It actually changes ourcortisol stress levels.
It relaxes our body, right.
And when we are physically sick, that too, the physical can
change the way we think, right.
So the mind impacts the bodyand the body impacts the mind,
and so it's always about tryingto reduce the stress in our
(22:33):
bodies, trying to keep ourselvesphysically and emotionally
healthy, to support our positivemindset and changing our
positive to support our positivemindset and changing our
positive, changing our mindsetto be positive in order to
change our inner body, our, youknow, our, our physical
experience, and to understandthat there's a great interplay
between those two and that ifyou're physically healthy and
(22:55):
eating well and believing thatyou're going to be strong and
healthy, that's where you'resending your energy, and I'm a
huge advocate of that.
I think that everything we dois connected.
Kelly B Haney (23:09):
Yeah, I'm so happy to hear you talk about
visualization.
That's definitely been one ofmy favorite tools in the healing
toolbox.
Just how powerful it is.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (23:20):
Do you have a special visualization for
yourself?
Kelly B Haney (23:22):
Yes.
So for a long time after beingill, especially after my year of
my terrible flare, I dealt witha lot of health anxiety.
So you know, old school call ithypochondria just fear that
something's wrong and that I'llfind myself back in that place,
which I'm sure you can relate todealing with.
(23:44):
So my favorite visualizationthat my wonderful therapist
taught me she said visualizeGod's healing light, like the
healing light of the energy.
Just enter from the top of yourhead and just slowly work its
way down your entire body and,as it goes, say healing energy,
(24:06):
healing, all is right, all iswell.
Just all the way down, justrepeating these positive
affirmations to yourself all theway down and without fail.
Once I finished thatvisualization my anxiety might
not be completely gone, but itat least is significantly better
.
But I realized after a time thepoint is not to make myself
(24:28):
feel better in the moment.
The point is to actually havemy body line up with my mind
that if there is something wrongin that moment I'm helping
myself heal.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (24:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's so powerful.
And when you speak to peoplewho are experiencing like
chronic health anxiety or aregoing through a medical trauma
and their brain is sort of wiredto just see it as something
terrible or they're going to getsick again, or you know, I have
(24:58):
a woman that I see who says,well, you know, it's going to
come back, Right.
And I'm like I cannot live inthat space, Like I just cannot
do that because why, like, whereyou know they, there's a saying
that says when, where the mindgoes, the body will follow.
Kelly B Haney (25:15):
Right.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (25:16):
So it's like I'm not putting my my mind in
in the garbage.
Can you know?
I'm going to put my mind in themost beautiful place and try
and have my body follow that.
Kelly B Haney (25:28):
Yeah, I love to use the example of if somebody
says the word lice and suddenlyyour head might start itching.
You know, suddenly you've got alittle bit of itching going in,
and that just to me.
You know, suddenly you've got alittle bit of itching going in,
and that just to me,demonstrates how powerful that
(25:48):
connection is.
Where somebody says a word andyou physically feel it in your
body.
It's just incredible so to totake it from that direction and
turn it around, flip it on itshead and use it for good, for
healing.
It's beautiful that we do havethat strong connection because
it yeah right, your head'sitching now, right, it is
powerful.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (26:05):
I mean it is you know, you can.
You can plant a thought in yourhead and completely change your
, your day, your experience,your luck, everything you know
by what you tell yourself.
Kelly B Haney (26:15):
So yeah, can we talk about your book, sure?
So you published your bookChemo Muscles Lessons Learned
from being a Psycho-Oncologistand Cancer Patient.
I know you even in the book andtoday you alluded to.
For a long time your story wasvery personal and very private
(26:35):
to you and you did not,understandably.
You were not ready.
You did not want to be open andvulnerable and obviously that's
changed over the years.
You're very open and vulnerable.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (26:46):
I'm the poster child for raw
vulnerability.
Kelly B Haney (26:50):
Yes, you sure are .
When did that change take placeand why did it become important
for you to write that book andshare your story?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (26:59):
Yeah.
So first of all, the reasonthat it's lessons learned from
being a psycho-oncologist.
I was a psychologist in apediatric cancer center for six
years, so I was the psychologistwho worked with all of the
children diagnosed with cancer.
I would speak to their familieswho are really worried about
them dying, and that was myprofessional job for years.
(27:21):
And after about six years Istarted to experience so much
PTSD, literally from so muchtrauma and death and loss that.
I said enough cancer, um, eventhough it was the most beautiful
work I've ever done, really,truly exceptional work I've ever
done Really, truly exceptional.
(27:42):
And I said I'm going to leavethe cancer center too much
cancer and I left in April and Iwas diagnosed in July.
So that's where the book comesfrom.
I learned a lot professionallyabout how healthcare providers
manage chronic illness and howthey work with their clients,
(28:02):
you know, with their patients.
And then I was on the flip sideand I felt like there was a lot
of learning that needed to takeplace, because healthcare
providers miss a lot and I sawsome of it as a healthcare
provider, but a lot of it Iunderstood in a highly different
way when I was a patient.
I also learned a lot of thingsfrom the kids that I used to see
(28:27):
, so I felt like that was areally important arena to
discuss.
So I started writing the bookand that was that was, writing
is a cathartic experience for meand I started writing it for my
own healing and I alwaysintended it to be a book
experience for me.
And I started writing it for myown healing and I always
intended it to be a book.
But, uh, the journey from beingextremely private and seeing
(28:48):
myself as fragile and vulnerableand sick and weak and damaged,
and all these things changedover several years.
Number one, through therapy, um.
Number two, through reallybecoming physically empowered,
which I think translates toemotional empowerment, um, and
(29:08):
changing.
You know, I was just changingand I definitely was not the
same person when I started thatbook and when I ended that book
and and I wrote in the lastchapter whether that's because I
naturally changed due to life,life events, being a mommy, time
, growing up, therapy, or ifit's because it was going
(29:32):
through cancer, post-traumagrowth.
It brings me back to my quote,which is we are who we are, not
in spite of the things that wego through, but because of them.
Right, I eventually became thisperson who was very comfortable
with who I was, uh, because ofwhat I went through, and I
started to learn to see myselfin a a way that you know was
(29:57):
able to, um, take all of theseaspects of my life and put them
out to the world, able to takeall these aspects of my life and
put them out to the world, andI also.
One of the things that I alsofeel is that it's very, very
helpful when you're goingthrough any kind of trauma, to
have somebody who's who can helpyou through it, and so I felt
like my book.
If I could do that for somebodyelse, that would be a win.
Kelly B Haney (30:18):
Yeah, I found that by taking this, these
terrible things that happen, andand flipping them around and
using them for good, it just, itbrings meaning, meaning to it
all.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (30:30):
A hundred percent and I don't think that
everybody has that, and I thinkthat it's such a missed
opportunity.
You know, like, everyone takesdifferent things from their life
experiences, but, um and I'mnot the president of like, oh, I
took so much growth from mylife experience, but I feel like
when you go through things inlife, it presents an opportunity
(30:52):
for you to either, you know, besad and depressed and and poor
me, or to really, you know,figure out poor me, or to really
, you know, figure out, you knowwhat happened and make meaning
from it.
I don't believe that bad thingshappen for a reason.
I I do not ascribe to thatbelief at all, but I, I I
(31:14):
definitely think that oncesomething bad has happened, it's
our job to figure out what wecan do with it.
Kelly B Haney (31:21):
You, know, yeah, that's beautiful.
I want to ask you, woman towoman, mother to mother.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (31:30):
Yes.
Kelly B Haney (31:32):
You are a practicing psychologist, you're
a professor, you're an author,you're a media contributor,
you're a public speaker, you'rea personal trainer.
You're a competitive speaker.
You're a personal trainer.
You're a competitivebodybuilder, you volunteer.
Not to mention you're a motherand a wife.
How do you do it all?
How do you manage wearing somany different hats?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (31:55):
Yeah, my children are older now, uh, so
my time uh is definitelydifferent now than when they
were younger, uh, and I alsothink that that's an evolving
experience that needs to be sortof.
You know, that's important toacknowledge.
Um, I've always been this way,before cancer, during cancer,
(32:18):
after.
I have always been, um, focused, um, I think that, and I've
always been determined and Ibelieve that life is always
about like accomplishing goalsand growing.
I think that's something that'svery different for me is that
when I first was diagnosed withcancer, many of the goals that I
(32:38):
set were about being aperfectionist and were about,
you know, other people, and thatdramatically dramatic.
I would say that that'sprobably the biggest thing that
changed for me.
Um, if I had to sort of say onething, because that's so
dramatically changed noweverything that I do is about me
, um, and nothing that I do isto you know, to prove myself, um
(33:05):
, so I think that I take onthings that are very meaningful
to me and that propels metowards doing them, because it's
pure joy, it's, it's what Ilove, uh, it's not coming from a
place of burden or, you know,responsibility or or proving
myself to other people.
So I think that that enables meto really love what I do.
(33:28):
So like if I geek out and sitdown and write.
You know which a lot of peoplemight be like how do you do that
?
Or you know, to me that's likea palette for just writing what
I'm feeling, and it's sowonderful.
Or if I go to the gym and I'mworking towards this competition
and it's grueling at times.
(33:49):
It's not like to stand on stageand show my body and it's like
every day showing up consistency, know, living your life in
alignment with these goals.
That's just like.
You know, I'm here, I'm blessed, um, and I want to live every
(34:11):
day, you know, to the fullest.
Um, and that doesn't mean that Idon't take like time to just
sit on the couch and binge,watch, you know, whatever,
because I I've learned thatthat's really important too.
I used to not do that when Iwas more of a perfectionist.
I used to be like go, go, go,what's next?
(34:31):
Now I'm like I don't feel likedoing anything.
I want to sit down and and Ilistened to myself a lot more,
and I think that, um, like Isaid, I'm not sure if it's
because I went through cancer.
I'm not sure if it's because Igrew up.
I'm not sure if it's because I,you know, went through therapy.
I don't know why.
It's a culmination of all thosethings, but the things that I
(34:53):
do I really enjoy and I love andyou know they're all part of me
putting out to the world.
You know, as long as I'm here,keep going and keep doing, and
once my competition's over, Ihave another more things on my
bucket list.
You know my to grow list.
Kelly B Haney (35:13):
I love that your to grow list.
As a recovering perfectionistmyself, that is an amazing
reframe that I'm going to borrowfrom you.
Not a to do list, a to-growlist.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (35:23):
I think that there are a lot of
perfectionists in the world, andI think that it's very hard for
children to grow up with somuch pressure and, you know, so
many people see who they arebased on their accomplishments
and what they do, and especiallywith social media, I feel like
that's really heightened andexacerbated in such a negative
way, and so I think it's reallyimportant for people to learn to
(35:46):
figure out their own voice andpay attention to themselves and
what brings them joy, becauseultimately, the you know,
success isn't financial.
Success is like being a happyperson in the world.
It's like what makes you lightup.
You know and you do that.
Kelly B Haney (36:05):
Well, I want to read a little excerpt from your
book.
In terms of self-care and yousaid I was buying hook line and
sinker into the belief that ourbodies and minds are connected
the more I exercised, the more Iwanted to exercise, the
stronger I felt, the healthier Ifelt.
The more care I exerted withthe foods I ingested, the more I
(36:27):
felt in control of my body.
With the foods I ingested, themore I felt in control of my
body.
This developed a level ofself-care that I had not
possessed before cancer.
I just thought you worded thatso beautiful.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (36:38):
And it made me like that.
Kelly B Haney (36:40):
Yeah, that was really good, good job.
It just made me wonder.
You know clearly you valueself-care and, in the obvious
ways that you've alreadymentioned, exercise and what you
put into your body.
Do you have other self-carepractices that you've developed
over the years and, in yourexperience, what has been very
(37:02):
helpful?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (37:03):
I.
I think self-care is soimportant and, as you mentioned
earlier, I am a professor and Ialways talk to my students who
are aspiring therapists aboutthis.
Self-care does not have to besomething that you make time for
.
Self-care is a moment to momentexperience in our days and for
(37:23):
there is small exercises such assitting and just breathing, or
taking a body scan throughoutthe day and sort of figuring out
where I'm holding stress orpressure.
And even a big one is likeputting my hands on my heart and
(37:44):
rubbing, and like giving myselflove or giving myself
compassion, right, like if theworld feels heavy or experiences
feel hard.
It's like just giving myselflove.
But I definitely notice themindfulness aspect of self-care.
For me is like going outsideand using my five senses, you
(38:04):
know, seeing the trees, feelingthe wind on my face or the sun,
smelling the air.
Right when I eat.
I'm not shoving down my food,I'm literally thinking about
like, how does this taste?
And I and I'm a big freak whenit comes to eating because I'm
like this broccoli that I'meating, you know, has
(38:27):
phytochemicals in it that areactually making me healthy and
reducing my breast cancer, youknow or this green tea, like
when I'm eating.
I don't become obsessive aboutit, but when I'm certainly
eating like healthy foods, I amthinking you are taking care of
yourself right now.
Kelly B Haney (38:45):
And when.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (38:45):
I'm exercising, it's a very when I'm
exercising I'm in like adifferent place, like I, you
know, even prepping for mycompetition.
I have certain exercises that Ido where my mind is so off in a
visual space, like there'ssomething called like a reverse
cable, where you kind of areworking your back muscles and
(39:06):
you take two cable machines andyou pull them and for me I am
seeing myself as super girl,literally with a cape on my back
, and I am like over and I'mthinking about the things that I
have to get through and I'mlike literally seeing myself
like flying through them.
To me that's a very mind bodyconnection and that's the kind
of work that I do at my center.
But when I'm doing pushups I'mnot just going down on the floor
(39:30):
and pushing up.
Like when I'm doing pushups Igo down on the floor and I think
about all the garbage that I'vebeen through or all the junk in
the world or, but mostly, thestruggles that I've been through
.
And then when I push up, Ithink like I am literally
pushing myself up, I'm holdingmyself Right, and that's what
pushups are to me.
(39:50):
And so when I'm doing thosethings, it's, it is self-care,
it's very much reinforcing, youknow, the mind and the body
together and taking care ofmyself moment to moment.
Kelly B Haney (39:59):
Yeah.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (40:00):
But I would say that the biggest thing is
like the day to day, the momentto moments, throughout the day.
When I come home from work,whether I have a 20 minute
commute or an hour and a halfcommute I either shut off music
entirely or I listened to spamusic and the entire time I'm
just breathing and I'mdeescalating and I'm letting go
(40:23):
of anybody else's stuff that Iheard throughout the day, so
that by the time I walk into myhouse I am clean of it.
And I also have a ritual thatsomeone, someone, taught me
years ago that you should have aritual between, like, work and
personal life.
And my ritual is the moment Iwalk in the house, before I
(40:44):
touch anybody, see anybody, Iwash my hands, ridding myself of
everybody else's problems, andthen I get into my cozy sweats
and then I'm mommy and I'm, youknow, and I can do anything but
like.
Not until then, not until I've,like, had that separation.
So all of those things areself-care for me and they're so
(41:04):
important, plus the bubble baths, massages whenever I can, um
walking outside nature andidentifying the things that
light you up or make you healthyfriendships, um being around
healthy people.
You know people who light youup, and for me, turning on Joni
Mitchell and baking for hours islike the greatest.
Kelly B Haney (41:28):
I love it, and so much of what you said is just
so, just simple, these littlethings that I'll come back to
you thinking about it,prioritizing it.
It doesn't have to be a day atthe spa Right To be self-care.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (41:41):
Right, I think that's a problem that
everyone thinks self-care has tobe.
You know, take an hour to go tothe gym or it doesn't has to be
.
You know, take an hour to go tothe gym or it doesn't have to
be.
Like you can do leg lifts whenyou're brushing your teeth, or
calf raises when you're in thedeli line.
You don't have to make it agrand gesture, and studies show
us that the grand gestures, youknow, that's why January 1st
(42:03):
there's 100 people in the gymand January 30th there are 20.
Right, it's like grand gesturesdon't work.
It has to be small, sustainablechanges.
Kelly B Haney (42:13):
One thing that kept coming up during your book
that I could relate to, becauseI'd experienced this myself.
Several of the physicians thatyou encountered over the course
of your journey we alluded to itearlier with people can say
things that have a lastingimpact, and I know that you
encountered some I don't know ifcallousness is the right word
(42:36):
unhelpful interactions withphysicians.
Can you just talk a little bitabout that and just the power of
our words Along those samelines when you were sick?
I would love to hear fromfriends and family and people in
your life what was helpful andwhat was not helpful.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (42:55):
Yeah, so I mean two very big questions.
I had so many health careprofessionals who were very
damaging.
Conversely, I had some who wereincredibly kind and beautiful
and those people made as much ofa difference as the negative
people.
When I was first diagnosedliterally first diagnosed my
(43:18):
gynecologist at the time was theperson to call me and tell me
that I was diagnosed with cancerand at the same time, I wasn't
positive, I was pregnant and Iwas waiting for a call from a
radiologist to tell me what mybiopsy revealed.
And my gynecologist called andhe said to me what is this?
I understand you have cancerand you're pregnant,
(43:51):
cardiologist, and I don't knowif I'm pregnant yet.
I think I am.
And he said you are pregnantand you do have cancer.
And within a breath, within abreath said I gave you a
prescription for a mammogram ayear ago.
Why didn't you go?
And I was like what I am justhearing, that I have cancer and
I'm pregnant.
Like I was driving, like Icouldn't even fathom.
(44:15):
And here I was, 37 years old,right, and it's like I have this
gynecologist blasting me forwhy I didn't go for a mammogram
a year earlier, whenrecommendations weren't until
age 40.
And the only reason thatsomebody would ever go earlier
is if they had a significantfamily history, which I had none
(44:36):
.
And the only reason that hegave me a prescription a year
earlier was because I wasthinking maybe I'll get pregnant
and if I do get pregnant, thenI'd like to have my first
mammogram earlier, because thenI'll be breastfeeding.
I was just planning and sohearing that in the context of
like, life altering news was sodevastating and something I'll
(44:58):
never forget, um, and I thinkthat that experience really
shaped, um, this idea in meabout, like, really advocating
for ourselves as patients.
I had so many experiences, somany, and many negative, but
also some really positive, and Ithink that the positive ones
can be so they're so smallsometimes, but they can make
(45:20):
such a difference.
I remember when I was at thefirst surgeon's office and I,
you know, and I was learninglike about life altering surgery
and I was so young and I I feltlike, you know, my world was
ending and he was also callous.
I remember some older womanwalked in and she just saw, like
(45:43):
me, so upset with my husband,and she said, honey, you don't
worry, you'll be all right.
And like I, just, it was so,you know, it was just such a
nice thing.
My plastic surgeon, like thekindest man, like I just had
some people, my my oncologist,you know, when I went on
Tamoxifen I said, making meemotional, when I went on
(46:03):
Tamoxifen I remember I said tohim I heard that Tamoxifen makes
you gain a lot of weight, isthat true?
And he said, renee, exercisethe hell out of it.
You know, I'm like just thereare just certain things that,
like people can do to changeyour experience.
And so family and friends.
I had my own family, um, youknow, my husband, my girls, like
(46:28):
couldn't have been moresupportive when I was first
diagnosed.
My kids were, my two daughterswere very young.
So they, you know, they didn't,they just knew I was having
surgery when I had cancer thesecond time they were older and
very loving, going through chemoand radiation, very supportive,
and of course that shaped theirlives as well and how they see
(46:50):
the world and health andsickness and all that.
Um, my husband, a rock througheverything.
Um, friends, I think that oneof the things that I learned, uh
, is that I, the first time Ihad cancer, was not someone who
ever asked for help because Iwas perfectionist and so I was
like I've got this, I don't wantto talk about it, I can handle
(47:12):
it.
Don't tell other people what'sgoing on with me.
It's none of their business,which, as we know, lends itself
to not getting much support.
Right and so that was somethingthat I learned about myself
going through the years.
So second time I had cancer Iwas like sure I'll welcome the
(47:33):
meal train that you drop foodoff of my house, sure you know
you can take my kids to school.
Like I was in a different spaceand I also was in a different
place to ask for help.
I remember earlier on reallystruggling the first time,
really struggling with beingangry at people because they
didn't treat me the way that Iwanted to be treated and I was
(47:56):
so conflicted about how I wantedto be treated because I wanted
to be strong and I didn't wantanyone to think that I was weak,
but if they didn't call, I wasangry and so much right.
And I think that's important toknow how to ask for help.
And then I think, just fromlike a basic human level, people
(48:19):
are very well intentioned butthey can say lose your breasts
Right.
Or like as soon as they met me,they would just like stare and
um, I had like that was thefirst question.
They wanted to know Um, which Ifound like you know, this is
what you're going to reduce meto Like it was very overwhelming
(48:41):
.
I had people often say to me.
Oh, I have a friend who died ofcancer, or my grandmother had
cancer, and I was like this isnot helpful.
Had people give me their youknow, expert medical opinion who
were not remotely in themedical field, like, well, when
you have chemo, this mighthappen to your fertility or you
(49:02):
know, and I was like this stuffis not helpful.
And so I think the thing thatis always helpful is to ask
somebody what they need from youand to not just say I'm there
when I'm here.
If you need me, because peopledon't want to, you know, take
you up on it, because theyalready feel like a burden or
they're struggling with theirown whatever right now.
(49:22):
And so to say, can I take yourkids to school on Wednesday?
Can I cook dinner for you onFriday?
Can I drive you to chemo?
Can I?
You know how can I help?
What can I drop off for you?
You know, I think that that'svery helpful.
Um, and telling somebody aboutrelatives who died from cancer
or went through a worst casescenario is not helpful.
(49:44):
Um, comparing, I had peoplecompare, people who didn't
really know what was going onwith me.
Oh, you have it so much easier.
This person had X.
Y and Z and I'm like I'm notgoing to compete about who has a
worse cancer.
Trust me, we're all losers here.
Kelly B Haney (50:02):
That's really helpful.
That's a good takeaway in thesense that when you say'm here
if you need me, it almost soundslike perfunctory, like this is
what I'm supposed to say, but bysaying something very specific
like can I take your kids toschool, can I bring you dinner,
that sounds like that's what gotthrough to you, as not just
(50:22):
yeah, this is actually going tobe helpful, but also this is
genuine.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (50:27):
Right.
And I think the other thing isthat your expectation that
certain people will show upsometimes is matched with their
showing up and sometimes it'snot.
I remember being very surprisedby people that I never thought
would show up.
You know, I remember some womandrove like an hour and a half
and hadn't made me like mashedpotatoes and chicken and all and
(50:49):
just drove to my house to dropit off, Right.
And then other people that youexpect to be there who flake out
, you know.
So really surprising.
Kelly B Haney (51:00):
Yeah, so, as we start to wrap up, we've covered
so much today.
There is one final question, avery important question, that I
am very eager to ask you.
In your center, and as a cancersurvivor, you obviously have
had a lot of hands-on experiencedealing with people who are
(51:23):
sick and, of course, going backto what you did years ago in
working with the families ofchildren with cancer, so you've
seen a lot, to say the least.
What would you say when youbreak it down?
What are the most significantingredients in the recipe of
success for those who are trulyseeking to transform their
(51:48):
health, transform their livesand to truly heal?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (51:54):
I think so much of that comes back to your
why right?
I know that's sort of cliche,that people say that a lot, but
it's very much about like whoyou are, what you want, how you
want to live your life right,and it's like what do you want?
right Like, if you want to liveyour life Right, and it's like
what, what do you want?
Right, like, if you want to behealthy, what do you need to do
to be healthy?
Right, re-examining, like, yourpriorities, um, re-examining
(52:20):
all of it.
You know your relationships,the people that you spend time
with, the music that you listento, the self-care practices, the
music that you listen to, theself-care practices, even your
clients.
You know, like all of it, like,um, and so I think that the
ingredients are like to real.
For me, they were really tolike, become much more mindful
(52:41):
about the things that I'm doingin my life.
I I don't spend time withpeople who I don't want to spend
time with.
When I get a phone call fromsomebody who I know is going to
dump on me, even if I love them,I've learned to say I can speak
to you for 10 minutes and thenI have to go, like, being more
(53:03):
protective of my own personalboundaries, so I'm not too
overwhelmed own personalboundaries, so I'm not too
overwhelmed, um, reallylistening to yourself about,
like, what you need, versus.
I think it's so much aboutbeing authentic, figuring out
what you need versus like whatother people need, trying to
listen to your inner voice more.
Um, that's like the mostsimplistic way I can say, but
(53:26):
like living your life for youand that's a big thing for me.
Like you know, I work with a lotof adolescents and I'm
constantly talking to them about, like, why it's so important
for them to get the approval ofthis person or that person or
social media Right.
When my daughters come out ofthe dressing room and ask me
what I think of you know theirhoochie mama shirt or whatever
(53:51):
I'm like, why do you care what Ithink I'm like?
And they get so annoyed with me.
But I'm like you know, I'm amom Like I may be wearing like
mom jeans and be like the mostuncool person in the world and
you want my opinion right?
Like, why is somebody else'sopinion of you more important
than your opinion of you?
Right?
(54:11):
Like, it doesn't matter what Ithink, it matters what you think
you know.
Live, live your life.
You only go around once, as faras I know, and it's not about
making other people happy.
It's about, like, doing whatfeels right for you and the more
you are tapped into that, itdoesn't matter what everyone
(54:32):
else is thinking, it justdoesn't matter.
Kelly B Haney (54:36):
Dr Axelbert, you're such an incredible
special person.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (54:40):
I'm so grateful, kelly you're making me
cry multiple times today.
It was such a joy to meet you.
I definitely know that we arekindred spirits.
Kelly B Haney (54:51):
You're amazing, thank you.
And speaking of tearing up, Idon't know if you could tell,
but I think about a dozen timesI almost had to reach for these
tissues because I know firsthandjust how powerful it is to hear
someone else's story and tojust be able to take from it and
apply it to.
(55:11):
Whatever you've been through,whatever pain you've been
through, it's always so helpfulto know that you're not alone in
this world and in pastsuffering or current sufferings.
I thank you so much for all thepeople that are going to hear
this and be helped by what yousaid today.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (55:28):
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you, Kelly.
Kelly B Haney (55:33):
I hope you enjoyed hearing that
conversation with Dr Renee asmuch as I enjoyed having it.
She is such a delight and sucha great example to all of us of
turning adversity into purposeand power.
If you are interested inlearning more about Dr Exelbert
or her work at the MetamorphosisCenter, go to her website,
(55:56):
drexelbertcom.
That's D-R-E-X-E-L-B-E-R-T dotcom.
You can also find informationon where to get her awesome book
Chemo Muscles there on the siteas well, and you can connect
with me at kellybhehaneycom orat kellybhehaney on Instagram.
(56:19):
And if you received value fromthis episode, I would greatly
appreciate it if you would takea moment to subscribe to the
show, download the episodes,rate and review and, of course,
please share it with anyone whoyou think may find value in it
as well.
Friends, I am honored to walkalongside of you as we heal and
(56:42):
stay healed together.
You.
Welcome to the Heal and Stay Healed podcast,
where we talk about healing and,more importantly, staying
healed from chronic disease andother ailments and issues.
We'll cover all the crazythings about health and life the
good, the bad, the ugly and thehilarious.
My name is Kelly and I'm asurvivor and overcomer of severe
(00:31):
autoimmune disease, and I can'twait to share with you what
I've learned so that you canheal and stay healed too.
Thanks for listening and enjoythe show.
Welcome back and thank you somuch for joining me.
(00:55):
Today.
We have an extraordinary guestfor this episode.
She is Dr Renee Exelbert,licensed psychologist, certified
elite personal trainer andtwo-time breast cancer survivor,
whose story is trulyinspirational.
After serving as staffpsychologist at the Cancer
(01:18):
Center for Kids at NYU'sWinthrop Hospital, dr Exelbert
received her own cancerdiagnosis.
This led her to found theMetamorphosis Center for
Psychological and PhysicalChange, where she integrates
psychotherapy and exercisefocusing on the mind-body
connection.
Dr Exelbert is the author ofChemo Muscles Lessons Learned
(01:41):
from being a Psycho-oncologistand cancer patient.
End is a regular expert mediacontributor.
She maintains a privatepractice in New York, is an
adjunct professor at NYU andserves as chair of the Advocacy,
Education and AwarenessGovernance Board for Fight
Cancer Global.
In our conversation today, drExelbert shares her remarkable
(02:04):
healing journey, havingface-down breast cancer, as I
mentioned not once, but twice,as well as other tragic
experiences.
She discusses the lifestylechanges that made a real
difference, her insights on themind-body connection and the
impact of a healing mindset.
We also explore balancingprofessional life and motherhood
(02:25):
, the importance of self-care,dealing with health anxiety
after severe illness and howloved ones can best support
those in difficult times,notably the day we recorded.
This was a significantmilestone in her journey, which
she'll tell us all about.
Dr Exelbert is someone who'sfaced terrible adversities and,
(02:47):
rather than developing a victimmentality, has used a growth
mindset to emerge stronger thanever mentally, emotionally and,
as you'll hear, certainlyphysically.
Despite the serious subjects wediscuss.
This was a truly enjoyableconversation, thanks to the
positivity and warmth that DrExelbert radiates.
(03:09):
I'm thrilled to have had thechance to gain so much wisdom
from such an inspirationalperson through this conversation
and to be able to share it withyou now.
So here we go with Dr ReneeExelbert.
Hello and welcome, dr Exelbert.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (03:27):
Hello, I'm so happy to be here.
Kelly B Haney (03:30):
Thank you so much for being here.
I have been really lookingforward to this conversation.
There is, I know, just so muchthat we have to learn from you
today.
I'm so grateful that you'regiving us your time to share
your experience and all of yourwisdom and insight with us.
Before we just dive in, I wouldlove to ask you one of my
(03:54):
favorite questions to ask people, which is do you have a
favorite quote, short poem ormusic lyric that has positively
impacted you or influenced youthat you'd like to share with us
?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (04:09):
I actually, when I think about poetry, I
always um yield towards HenryDavid Thoreau, um, and I love
his poem about sucking themarrow out of life.
I love that, but in terms of um, a sentiment that I think of a
lot.
I think it's my own quote andit says we are who we are, not
in spite of the things thatwe've been through, but because
(04:32):
of them.
And some people don't like thatquote because they say I'm not,
my experience, I'm not this badthing that happened to me and
we're not.
We never are this bad thingthat happened to me and we're
not.
We never are.
But I feel like having beenthrough cancer twice, I feel
like we are not the same personthat we were prior to our
(04:52):
journey and that all of thethings that happened to us, good
or bad, very much change who weare and it's those things that
actually create a newer versionof ourselves.
That, hopefully, is all aboutpost trauma growth.
So I like that.
Kelly B Haney (05:13):
I love that.
I just have to say, as you werespeaking, I wrote down post
traumatic growth right beforeyou said it.
There you go, minds think alike.
Yes, and you mentioned Thoreau,who I have several of his books
sitting here behind me.
He was my favorite philosopher,so I think we have a lot in
common.
Dr Exelbert, absolutely.
(05:34):
Can you start by giving us asmuch or as little as you want to
tell us about your healthjourney, what you've been
through, what you've overcome,what you're still overcoming?
Please share with us whateveryou feel comfortable sharing.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (05:49):
Yeah.
So in 2007, I was diagnosedwith breast cancer.
I was positive at that likeliterally positive at the time,
that I wasn't going to havecancer.
My mom always had what do theycall it?
Highly dense breasts and I kepttelling the doctors no, no, no,
(06:12):
my mom has these dense breasts.
She's always had, you know,concerns.
But I did.
I was.
I was diagnosed with breastcancer, I had two really young
kids and at the time it wasreally, really overwhelming
because I had to undergo reallyradical surgery and I I suffered
(06:32):
a lot of blows to my personalidentity, what I thought was my
identity, my sense of beauty, mysense of fragility and, just,
you know, being in the world andwhether or not I was going to
have a shortened life, thinkingabout my family, my husband.
So that was when that was 2007.
(06:55):
And I had less than a 5% chanceof ever getting breast cancer
again because of the surgerythat I had, as well as the
hormone treatment that I was on.
And during that time periodwhen I was recovering, I
researched everything abouthealing and keeping cancer at
(07:16):
bay and I became a clean eaterand I used to inject sugar like
heroin youffy, taffy and sourpatch kids.
It was my drug of choice and,um, I became a clean eater.
I became really, reallyinvested in nutrition and
exercise.
Um, and during several, severalyear time period, I became so
(07:39):
invested in exercise that Ihooked up with a personal
trainer who was a bodybuildingpro and she used to do these
bodybuilding shows and I startedgetting ripped and people you
know were coming over to me andthey're like are you doing a
show?
I'm like there is no way in theworld that I'm going to stand
on her heels and a bikini andflex my muscles on stage.
(08:03):
That'll never happen.
Heels and a bikini and flex mymuscles on stage That'll never
happen.
And, uh, during this time, I wasalso writing a book that I was
very much not ready to put outto the world because it was so
vulnerable and raw.
Um, but around the five yearmark, which is very significant
in the cancer world, um, Ithought to myself you know what?
It would be a great way tohonor regaining control over my
(08:25):
body by doing a bodybuildingshow.
And I became one of these womenwho stands in stripper heels in
their bikini and flexes theirmuscles.
And it was a very empoweringexperience to me because it was
demonstrative to me that Iregained control of my body, and
during this time period, I wasso invested in clean eating and
(08:49):
nutrition.
I ended up becoming a certifiedpersonal trainer and I opened up
a center called theMetamorphosis Center for
Psychological and PhysicalChange, where I integrate
psychotherapy and exercise, andI also use this very unique
blend of visualizations to, youknow, augment somebody's journey
.
Visualizations are very, verypowerful for me, something that
(09:14):
I use all of the time inachieving my goals, and so I
incorporate that as well with mywork.
And so that was five years outof cancer.
And then I continued to writemy book and I underwent so many
personality changes um, lots oftherapy, lots of uh, working on
(09:35):
who I really am outside of, likeall of the superficial stuff.
And, um, I was really ready toput my book out to the world.
Um, and then, all of a sudden,I was re-diagnosed with cancer
which was like, came out of theblue.
Um, never, ever would havethought that.
Um, when I, when I found thislittle thing on my breast, I
(09:57):
went to both my uh, my umsurgeon, and my gynecologist and
both of them assured me it'snothing.
Um and I, I had a recurrence.
They're still not actually sureif it was a recurrence or a new
cancer, but it was in the samesame spot.
Um, and because I was young andbecause the cancer was
aggressive, my, my oncologisttook my case to the tumor board
(10:20):
and they voted that I shouldhave radiation and chemo, even
though my, you know, the tumorwas very small and didn't
actually meet that criteria.
Um, so I, you know, went throughradiation and chemo and I had
already been living a very cleanlife and I had many people who
said to me you should have justsat on your butt and ate bonbons
(10:41):
, so you don't need to do allthis.
And there was definitely a partof me that felt really
frustrated that I had worked sohard to be healthy and this
happened again.
But the way that I have learnedto look at it is that I really,
thank goodness, sailed throughchemo and I have been very
healthy since, knock on wood.
And had I not been taking suchgood care of myself, who knows
(11:01):
what would have happened?
And had I not been taking suchgood care of myself, who knows
what have happened?
Um, and had I not been sohypervigilant about my health,
who knows if I would have evenfound the second cancer?
Uh, so I don't, I don't buyinto that.
You know, sit on your butt andyou know what's going to happen
is going to happen.
I firmly believe in epigeneticsand that we have the capacity to
(11:24):
turn on or off genes that arerelated to health or disease.
So I went through radiation andchemo, and I would literally go
through chemo on Monday, be inbed for two days, then go out to
Long Island and see my ownpatients come back and you know,
by the weekend I was in the gymand I did this for eight months
(11:47):
and, um, I, the whole time Iwas in the gym as much as I
could be, and fortunately I gotthrough that.
And, um, I have also had skincancer twice.
Wow, which was after the breastcancers.
Kelly B Haney (12:04):
Wow.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (12:04):
I was like, did I grow up in a nuclear power
plant or what?
And so you know it's sort ofit's wild, because sometimes
when you've gone through traumaor adversity, it feels like
what's next, like you knowwhen's the next shoe going to
drop, but I kind of just keeppushing through.
(12:26):
There are people who go throughso much tragedy and I am
extremely blessed.
I'm extremely blessed to behere.
I'm extremely blessed for allthe treatment that I've had and
that I'm healthy, and so thathas sort of.
Today I was telling you earlieris a very significant day for
me, because tonight I'm takingmy last anti-estrogen pill that
(12:49):
I've been on for 15 years.
That is so awesome To mark theend of cancer treatment God
willing, forever.
I'm doing another bodybuildingshow this Saturday, which I'm
super excited about.
That's my story.
Um, I very much believe in mind, body.
(13:10):
I very much believe that wehave a lot of control over our
destiny.
Um, and when bad things happen,I feel like we have a lot
within us to uh, change thecircumstance and do the best
that we can to, you know, to getthrough it and to definitely,
as we mentioned before, havepost trauma growth.
Kelly B Haney (13:31):
Yeah, oh, thank you so much.
I look at it two different ways.
I mean having experiencedchronic illness.
Certainly we have verydifferent stories in many ways,
but very similar things in thatI can relate to a lot of what
you're saying about the feelingsand the mindset and the growth.
(13:51):
I think we always, when facedwith adversity, especially with
our health, we do have twooptions, and one is to give up
and accept it for what it is,and the other is not to give up,
not to accept it and to fightit.
And before we dig into morequestions about your story, I
(14:11):
think just focusing on right now, today, first of all,
congratulations.
This is a huge day.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (14:19):
It is.
It's such a nice connectionbecause it is a very special day
for me, so you will always be apart of that.
So thank you.
Kelly B Haney (14:26):
Oh, thank you.
And then the show, and I knowyou recently competed in a show,
not too long ago.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (14:33):
Did.
Yeah, it's great.
And you know, the other thingthat I am actually sort of
interested in my own brain rightnow because one of the
significant things that I didn'tmention and I'm sort of
wondering why I didn't.
But because I'm a psychologist,I always have to think about
what I did and why I didn'tRight.
But, like when I was diagnosedwith breast cancer, I was also
pregnant, um, and so I had tohave a termination of that
(14:55):
pregnancy.
So so much.
Kelly B Haney (14:57):
Yeah, that's.
We'll talk about your book in alittle bit, but I've read your
book and that I mean your storyis emotion provoking, we'll just
say that.
And just how raw and honest youare.
And of the whole story, that isdefinitely one of the more
challenging moments to readabout the forced termination of
what was a very wanted pregnancy.
(15:19):
And yeah, again, just goingback to you could either be
angry and bitter about that oryou could use it as an
opportunity for growth and justit's remarkable what you've done
, that you've obviously takenthe latter path and here you are
sharing with others and helpingothers who maybe aren't just
(15:39):
dealing with their own physicalissues but are dealing with
pregnancy loss as well.
So just thank you for yourvulnerability in your book here
today and I know in everythingyou do you're just very open and
honest.
I want to ask you about thecompetition.
You've got this one coming upon Saturday to mark this huge
milestone, but I know yourecently had one and you put a
post on LinkedIn, which I haveto credit my husband with
(16:04):
leading me to you, because youconnected with him several years
ago and he's been telling mejust what a remarkable person
you are and he showed me thatpost and you said you know, this
is you celebrating takingcontrol, regaining control of
your body.
Celebrating taking control,regaining control of your body,
(16:25):
that you have taken your bodyback, looking back on everything
you've been through and thatmoment, standing up on that
stage.
I would just love to hear theemotions you were feeling.
What were you feeling duringthat time?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (16:36):
Yeah, I, you know, I was sort of I was sort
of surprised that the momentwasn't the moment, like I didn't
need the moment.
I've been actually takingcontrol over my body for years.
You know, even this nextcompetition, you know, and even
(17:00):
taking my last pill tonight.
Um, you know, and even takingmy last pill tonight.
It's all beautiful and it's allwonderful and contributory
towards, you know, reclaimingcontrol and everything that I've
been through, but those momentswhere I shut the door on cancer
and I took control of my bodyagain happened so long ago and
(17:20):
happen on an everyday basis.
They really do.
I think for me it was moreabout, like you know, the first
time I did a competition, it wasfive years after cancer and I
thought that was it Right.
I thought, like I'm done, Iregained control of my body,
right, and then I got canceragain.
Um, and I haven't done a showsince.
So sort of thinking about, andmy body has changed.
(17:43):
I'm a little bit older than Iwas 12 years ago and so thinking
about, um, all that I've beenthrough, you know, and all that
life has brought, and um, andthen also having skin cancer
twice, like all of this stuff,it's sort of like that's a
moment of pride to just be ableto like, really push and you
(18:04):
know, and get back to like youknow, I'm still here, I'm still
going to get, I'm.
You still haven't gotten me,thank goodness, like I'm, you
know, I'm still strong and I'mstill here, and so that you know
that action is pretty cool.
Kelly B Haney (18:20):
Yeah that you know that action is pretty cool.
Yeah, I think about it a lot,never having experienced cancer,
but having experienced chronicillness where, you know, at 19
years old, I was told this ischronic, You're going to, you're
going to be dealing with thisforever.
And here I am today.
I've been 13 years free of mydisease, but that rings in my
(18:41):
head, that voice is really hardto completely expunge.
It's hard for me to say I'mcured, I will never deal with
this again.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (18:50):
No, I hear you.
I think that you know I haveseveral things to say to that.
My gynecologist once said to mecancer is the gift that keeps
giving and I live that becauseI've had so many things that
have been resultant from cancer.
But I also had a woman who wasa three-time cancer survivor say
to me you can't think aboutgetting cancer twice, you have
(19:13):
to think about it as a chronicillness.
And I remember when she saidthat, being so angry, I'm not
getting cancer again.
Right, I was so angry.
But you know, even when we shutthe door and you know we say
we're done, there's so much, uh,emotionally that people who
have experienced chronic illnessor medical trauma deal with.
(19:36):
So even when the door is shut,god willing, right, you always
deal with that and you alwayschange your life and your
behaviors, hopefully as a resultof what you've been through.
And so, yes, I hope I never,ever, get cancer.
I hope I never have to dealwith that.
I think that that thought orthat fear will always lurk in
every person's mind who has hada chronic illness or severe
(20:00):
medical trauma.
But I try not to live in thatspace and I tried to live in
like I'm going to be the verybest that I can be and be the
healthiest that I can be.
And what can I do in my control, you know, to overcome whatever
it is that I have or had.
Kelly B Haney (20:16):
Yeah, Everything we're talking about involves
mindset.
So, as a as a professional andthen also having your lived
experience, can you just talkabout the role that mindset
plays and the mind bodyconnection, which I know is
something that you believe inwholeheartedly?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (20:39):
I mean well, first of all, like everything
that we put inside our bodies,whether it be news or reading or
friendships, music, food,alcohol, drugs all of that
impacts our functioning and so Itry very hard to be mindful of
that.
And, as I said I, I'm a cleaneater and I'm an exercise, I'm a
(21:02):
gym rat, um, and so thosethings are joy to me.
I used to go on vacation andlike, and if I saw a candy store
, I'd be like yeah.
And now I go on vacation and Ilook for the first gym and I
salivate over what greatmachines they have and like I
can use that gym and I get veryexcited, which is probably weird
(21:25):
.
But so that's one component.
But in terms of likevisualizations and where we
focus our thoughts, I am a hugebeliever in seeing positivity.
There was a really importantstudy done in 1970 by this man,
carl Simonton, where he hadcancer patients focus on people
(21:48):
with cancer, focus on Pac-Maneating up their tumors and there
was a dramatic reduction in thesize of tumors for people who
did this on a regular basis.
And I very much believe in thepower of thought and, in terms
of the mind body connection,what that really means is that
when we think about things in apositive way, it changes our
(22:13):
physicality.
It actually changes ourcortisol stress levels.
It relaxes our body, right.
And when we are physically sick, that too, the physical can
change the way we think, right.
So the mind impacts the bodyand the body impacts the mind,
and so it's always about tryingto reduce the stress in our
(22:33):
bodies, trying to keep ourselvesphysically and emotionally
healthy, to support our positivemindset and changing our
positive to support our positivemindset and changing our
positive, changing our mindsetto be positive in order to
change our inner body, our, youknow, our, our physical
experience, and to understandthat there's a great interplay
between those two and that ifyou're physically healthy and
(22:55):
eating well and believing thatyou're going to be strong and
healthy, that's where you'resending your energy, and I'm a
huge advocate of that.
I think that everything we dois connected.
Kelly B Haney (23:09):
Yeah, I'm so happy to hear you talk about
visualization.
That's definitely been one ofmy favorite tools in the healing
toolbox.
Just how powerful it is.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (23:20):
Do you have a special visualization for
yourself?
Kelly B Haney (23:22):
Yes.
So for a long time after beingill, especially after my year of
my terrible flare, I dealt witha lot of health anxiety.
So you know, old school call ithypochondria just fear that
something's wrong and that I'llfind myself back in that place,
which I'm sure you can relate todealing with.
(23:44):
So my favorite visualizationthat my wonderful therapist
taught me she said visualizeGod's healing light, like the
healing light of the energy.
Just enter from the top of yourhead and just slowly work its
way down your entire body and,as it goes, say healing energy,
(24:06):
healing, all is right, all iswell.
Just all the way down, justrepeating these positive
affirmations to yourself all theway down and without fail.
Once I finished thatvisualization my anxiety might
not be completely gone, but itat least is significantly better
.
But I realized after a time thepoint is not to make myself
(24:28):
feel better in the moment.
The point is to actually havemy body line up with my mind
that if there is something wrongin that moment I'm helping
myself heal.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (24:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's so powerful.
And when you speak to peoplewho are experiencing like
chronic health anxiety or aregoing through a medical trauma
and their brain is sort of wiredto just see it as something
terrible or they're going to getsick again, or you know, I have
(24:58):
a woman that I see who says,well, you know, it's going to
come back, Right.
And I'm like I cannot live inthat space, Like I just cannot
do that because why, like, whereyou know they, there's a saying
that says when, where the mindgoes, the body will follow.
Kelly B Haney (25:15):
Right.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (25:16):
So it's like I'm not putting my my mind in
in the garbage.
Can you know?
I'm going to put my mind in themost beautiful place and try
and have my body follow that.
Kelly B Haney (25:28):
Yeah, I love to use the example of if somebody
says the word lice and suddenlyyour head might start itching.
You know, suddenly you've got alittle bit of itching going in,
and that just to me.
You know, suddenly you've got alittle bit of itching going in,
and that just to me,demonstrates how powerful that
(25:48):
connection is.
Where somebody says a word andyou physically feel it in your
body.
It's just incredible so to totake it from that direction and
turn it around, flip it on itshead and use it for good, for
healing.
It's beautiful that we do havethat strong connection because
it yeah right, your head'sitching now, right, it is
powerful.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (26:05):
I mean it is you know, you can.
You can plant a thought in yourhead and completely change your
, your day, your experience,your luck, everything you know
by what you tell yourself.
Kelly B Haney (26:15):
So yeah, can we talk about your book, sure?
So you published your bookChemo Muscles Lessons Learned
from being a Psycho-Oncologistand Cancer Patient.
I know you even in the book andtoday you alluded to.
For a long time your story wasvery personal and very private
(26:35):
to you and you did not,understandably.
You were not ready.
You did not want to be open andvulnerable and obviously that's
changed over the years.
You're very open and vulnerable.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (26:46):
I'm the poster child for raw
vulnerability.
Kelly B Haney (26:50):
Yes, you sure are .
When did that change take placeand why did it become important
for you to write that book andshare your story?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (26:59):
Yeah.
So first of all, the reasonthat it's lessons learned from
being a psycho-oncologist.
I was a psychologist in apediatric cancer center for six
years, so I was the psychologistwho worked with all of the
children diagnosed with cancer.
I would speak to their familieswho are really worried about
them dying, and that was myprofessional job for years.
(27:21):
And after about six years Istarted to experience so much
PTSD, literally from so muchtrauma and death and loss that.
I said enough cancer, um, eventhough it was the most beautiful
work I've ever done, really,truly exceptional work I've ever
done Really, truly exceptional.
(27:42):
And I said I'm going to leavethe cancer center too much
cancer and I left in April and Iwas diagnosed in July.
So that's where the book comesfrom.
I learned a lot professionallyabout how healthcare providers
manage chronic illness and howthey work with their clients,
(28:02):
you know, with their patients.
And then I was on the flip sideand I felt like there was a lot
of learning that needed to takeplace, because healthcare
providers miss a lot and I sawsome of it as a healthcare
provider, but a lot of it Iunderstood in a highly different
way when I was a patient.
I also learned a lot of thingsfrom the kids that I used to see
(28:27):
, so I felt like that was areally important arena to
discuss.
So I started writing the bookand that was that was, writing
is a cathartic experience for meand I started writing it for my
own healing and I alwaysintended it to be a book
experience for me.
And I started writing it for myown healing and I always
intended it to be a book.
But, uh, the journey from beingextremely private and seeing
(28:48):
myself as fragile and vulnerableand sick and weak and damaged,
and all these things changedover several years.
Number one, through therapy, um.
Number two, through reallybecoming physically empowered,
which I think translates toemotional empowerment, um, and
(29:08):
changing.
You know, I was just changingand I definitely was not the
same person when I started thatbook and when I ended that book
and and I wrote in the lastchapter whether that's because I
naturally changed due to life,life events, being a mommy, time
, growing up, therapy, or ifit's because it was going
(29:32):
through cancer, post-traumagrowth.
It brings me back to my quote,which is we are who we are, not
in spite of the things that wego through, but because of them.
Right, I eventually became thisperson who was very comfortable
with who I was, uh, because ofwhat I went through, and I
started to learn to see myselfin a a way that you know was
(29:57):
able to, um, take all of theseaspects of my life and put them
out to the world, able to takeall these aspects of my life and
put them out to the world, andI also.
One of the things that I alsofeel is that it's very, very
helpful when you're goingthrough any kind of trauma, to
have somebody who's who can helpyou through it, and so I felt
like my book.
If I could do that for somebodyelse, that would be a win.
Kelly B Haney (30:18):
Yeah, I found that by taking this, these
terrible things that happen, andand flipping them around and
using them for good, it just, itbrings meaning, meaning to it
all.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (30:30):
A hundred percent and I don't think that
everybody has that, and I thinkthat it's such a missed
opportunity.
You know, like, everyone takesdifferent things from their life
experiences, but, um and I'mnot the president of like, oh, I
took so much growth from mylife experience, but I feel like
when you go through things inlife, it presents an opportunity
(30:52):
for you to either, you know, besad and depressed and and poor
me, or to really, you know,figure out poor me, or to really
, you know, figure out, you knowwhat happened and make meaning
from it.
I don't believe that bad thingshappen for a reason.
I I do not ascribe to thatbelief at all, but I, I I
(31:14):
definitely think that oncesomething bad has happened, it's
our job to figure out what wecan do with it.
Kelly B Haney (31:21):
You, know, yeah, that's beautiful.
I want to ask you, woman towoman, mother to mother.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (31:30):
Yes.
Kelly B Haney (31:32):
You are a practicing psychologist, you're
a professor, you're an author,you're a media contributor,
you're a public speaker, you'rea personal trainer.
You're a competitive speaker.
You're a personal trainer.
You're a competitivebodybuilder, you volunteer.
Not to mention you're a motherand a wife.
How do you do it all?
How do you manage wearing somany different hats?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (31:55):
Yeah, my children are older now, uh, so
my time uh is definitelydifferent now than when they
were younger, uh, and I alsothink that that's an evolving
experience that needs to be sortof.
You know, that's important toacknowledge.
Um, I've always been this way,before cancer, during cancer,
(32:18):
after.
I have always been, um, focused, um, I think that, and I've
always been determined and Ibelieve that life is always
about like accomplishing goalsand growing.
I think that's something that'svery different for me is that
when I first was diagnosed withcancer, many of the goals that I
(32:38):
set were about being aperfectionist and were about,
you know, other people, and thatdramatically dramatic.
I would say that that'sprobably the biggest thing that
changed for me.
Um, if I had to sort of say onething, because that's so
dramatically changed noweverything that I do is about me
, um, and nothing that I do isto you know, to prove myself, um
(33:05):
, so I think that I take onthings that are very meaningful
to me and that propels metowards doing them, because it's
pure joy, it's, it's what Ilove, uh, it's not coming from a
place of burden or, you know,responsibility or or proving
myself to other people.
So I think that that enables meto really love what I do.
(33:28):
So like if I geek out and sitdown and write.
You know which a lot of peoplemight be like how do you do that
?
Or you know, to me that's likea palette for just writing what
I'm feeling, and it's sowonderful.
Or if I go to the gym and I'mworking towards this competition
and it's grueling at times.
(33:49):
It's not like to stand on stageand show my body and it's like
every day showing up consistency, know, living your life in
alignment with these goals.
That's just like.
You know, I'm here, I'm blessed, um, and I want to live every
(34:11):
day, you know, to the fullest.
Um, and that doesn't mean that Idon't take like time to just
sit on the couch and binge,watch, you know, whatever,
because I I've learned thatthat's really important too.
I used to not do that when Iwas more of a perfectionist.
I used to be like go, go, go,what's next?
(34:31):
Now I'm like I don't feel likedoing anything.
I want to sit down and and Ilistened to myself a lot more,
and I think that, um, like Isaid, I'm not sure if it's
because I went through cancer.
I'm not sure if it's because Igrew up.
I'm not sure if it's because I,you know, went through therapy.
I don't know why.
It's a culmination of all thosethings, but the things that I
(34:53):
do I really enjoy and I love andyou know they're all part of me
putting out to the world.
You know, as long as I'm here,keep going and keep doing, and
once my competition's over, Ihave another more things on my
bucket list.
You know my to grow list.
Kelly B Haney (35:13):
I love that your to grow list.
As a recovering perfectionistmyself, that is an amazing
reframe that I'm going to borrowfrom you.
Not a to do list, a to-growlist.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (35:23):
I think that there are a lot of
perfectionists in the world, andI think that it's very hard for
children to grow up with somuch pressure and, you know, so
many people see who they arebased on their accomplishments
and what they do, and especiallywith social media, I feel like
that's really heightened andexacerbated in such a negative
way, and so I think it's reallyimportant for people to learn to
(35:46):
figure out their own voice andpay attention to themselves and
what brings them joy, becauseultimately, the you know,
success isn't financial.
Success is like being a happyperson in the world.
It's like what makes you lightup.
You know and you do that.
Kelly B Haney (36:05):
Well, I want to read a little excerpt from your
book.
In terms of self-care and yousaid I was buying hook line and
sinker into the belief that ourbodies and minds are connected
the more I exercised, the more Iwanted to exercise, the
stronger I felt, the healthier Ifelt.
The more care I exerted withthe foods I ingested, the more I
(36:27):
felt in control of my body.
With the foods I ingested, themore I felt in control of my
body.
This developed a level ofself-care that I had not
possessed before cancer.
I just thought you worded thatso beautiful.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (36:38):
And it made me like that.
Kelly B Haney (36:40):
Yeah, that was really good, good job.
It just made me wonder.
You know clearly you valueself-care and, in the obvious
ways that you've alreadymentioned, exercise and what you
put into your body.
Do you have other self-carepractices that you've developed
over the years and, in yourexperience, what has been very
(37:02):
helpful?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (37:03):
I.
I think self-care is soimportant and, as you mentioned
earlier, I am a professor and Ialways talk to my students who
are aspiring therapists aboutthis.
Self-care does not have to besomething that you make time for
.
Self-care is a moment to momentexperience in our days and for
(37:23):
there is small exercises such assitting and just breathing, or
taking a body scan throughoutthe day and sort of figuring out
where I'm holding stress orpressure.
And even a big one is likeputting my hands on my heart and
(37:44):
rubbing, and like giving myselflove or giving myself
compassion, right, like if theworld feels heavy or experiences
feel hard.
It's like just giving myselflove.
But I definitely notice themindfulness aspect of self-care.
For me is like going outsideand using my five senses, you
(38:04):
know, seeing the trees, feelingthe wind on my face or the sun,
smelling the air.
Right when I eat.
I'm not shoving down my food,I'm literally thinking about
like, how does this taste?
And I and I'm a big freak whenit comes to eating because I'm
like this broccoli that I'meating, you know, has
(38:27):
phytochemicals in it that areactually making me healthy and
reducing my breast cancer, youknow or this green tea, like
when I'm eating.
I don't become obsessive aboutit, but when I'm certainly
eating like healthy foods, I amthinking you are taking care of
yourself right now.
Kelly B Haney (38:45):
And when.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (38:45):
I'm exercising, it's a very when I'm
exercising I'm in like adifferent place, like I, you
know, even prepping for mycompetition.
I have certain exercises that Ido where my mind is so off in a
visual space, like there'ssomething called like a reverse
cable, where you kind of areworking your back muscles and
(39:06):
you take two cable machines andyou pull them and for me I am
seeing myself as super girl,literally with a cape on my back
, and I am like over and I'mthinking about the things that I
have to get through and I'mlike literally seeing myself
like flying through them.
To me that's a very mind bodyconnection and that's the kind
of work that I do at my center.
But when I'm doing pushups I'mnot just going down on the floor
(39:30):
and pushing up.
Like when I'm doing pushups Igo down on the floor and I think
about all the garbage that I'vebeen through or all the junk in
the world or, but mostly, thestruggles that I've been through
.
And then when I push up, Ithink like I am literally
pushing myself up, I'm holdingmyself Right, and that's what
pushups are to me.
(39:50):
And so when I'm doing thosethings, it's, it is self-care,
it's very much reinforcing, youknow, the mind and the body
together and taking care ofmyself moment to moment.
Kelly B Haney (39:59):
Yeah.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (40:00):
But I would say that the biggest thing is
like the day to day, the momentto moments, throughout the day.
When I come home from work,whether I have a 20 minute
commute or an hour and a halfcommute I either shut off music
entirely or I listened to spamusic and the entire time I'm
just breathing and I'mdeescalating and I'm letting go
(40:23):
of anybody else's stuff that Iheard throughout the day, so
that by the time I walk into myhouse I am clean of it.
And I also have a ritual thatsomeone, someone, taught me
years ago that you should have aritual between, like, work and
personal life.
And my ritual is the moment Iwalk in the house, before I
(40:44):
touch anybody, see anybody, Iwash my hands, ridding myself of
everybody else's problems, andthen I get into my cozy sweats
and then I'm mommy and I'm, youknow, and I can do anything but
like.
Not until then, not until I've,like, had that separation.
So all of those things areself-care for me and they're so
(41:04):
important, plus the bubble baths, massages whenever I can, um
walking outside nature andidentifying the things that
light you up or make you healthyfriendships, um being around
healthy people.
You know people who light youup, and for me, turning on Joni
Mitchell and baking for hours islike the greatest.
Kelly B Haney (41:28):
I love it, and so much of what you said is just
so, just simple, these littlethings that I'll come back to
you thinking about it,prioritizing it.
It doesn't have to be a day atthe spa Right To be self-care.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (41:41):
Right, I think that's a problem that
everyone thinks self-care has tobe.
You know, take an hour to go tothe gym or it doesn't has to be
.
You know, take an hour to go tothe gym or it doesn't have to
be.
Like you can do leg lifts whenyou're brushing your teeth, or
calf raises when you're in thedeli line.
You don't have to make it agrand gesture, and studies show
us that the grand gestures, youknow, that's why January 1st
(42:03):
there's 100 people in the gymand January 30th there are 20.
Right, it's like grand gesturesdon't work.
It has to be small, sustainablechanges.
Kelly B Haney (42:13):
One thing that kept coming up during your book
that I could relate to, becauseI'd experienced this myself.
Several of the physicians thatyou encountered over the course
of your journey we alluded to itearlier with people can say
things that have a lastingimpact, and I know that you
encountered some I don't know ifcallousness is the right word
(42:36):
unhelpful interactions withphysicians.
Can you just talk a little bitabout that and just the power of
our words Along those samelines when you were sick?
I would love to hear fromfriends and family and people in
your life what was helpful andwhat was not helpful.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (42:55):
Yeah, so I mean two very big questions.
I had so many health careprofessionals who were very
damaging.
Conversely, I had some who wereincredibly kind and beautiful
and those people made as much ofa difference as the negative
people.
When I was first diagnosedliterally first diagnosed my
(43:18):
gynecologist at the time was theperson to call me and tell me
that I was diagnosed with cancerand at the same time, I wasn't
positive, I was pregnant and Iwas waiting for a call from a
radiologist to tell me what mybiopsy revealed.
And my gynecologist called andhe said to me what is this?
I understand you have cancerand you're pregnant,
(43:51):
cardiologist, and I don't knowif I'm pregnant yet.
I think I am.
And he said you are pregnantand you do have cancer.
And within a breath, within abreath said I gave you a
prescription for a mammogram ayear ago.
Why didn't you go?
And I was like what I am justhearing, that I have cancer and
I'm pregnant.
Like I was driving, like Icouldn't even fathom.
(44:15):
And here I was, 37 years old,right, and it's like I have this
gynecologist blasting me forwhy I didn't go for a mammogram
a year earlier, whenrecommendations weren't until
age 40.
And the only reason thatsomebody would ever go earlier
is if they had a significantfamily history, which I had none
(44:36):
.
And the only reason that hegave me a prescription a year
earlier was because I wasthinking maybe I'll get pregnant
and if I do get pregnant, thenI'd like to have my first
mammogram earlier, because thenI'll be breastfeeding.
I was just planning and sohearing that in the context of
like, life altering news was sodevastating and something I'll
(44:58):
never forget, um, and I thinkthat that experience really
shaped, um, this idea in meabout, like, really advocating
for ourselves as patients.
I had so many experiences, somany, and many negative, but
also some really positive, and Ithink that the positive ones
can be so they're so smallsometimes, but they can make
(45:20):
such a difference.
I remember when I was at thefirst surgeon's office and I,
you know, and I was learninglike about life altering surgery
and I was so young and I I feltlike, you know, my world was
ending and he was also callous.
I remember some older womanwalked in and she just saw, like
(45:43):
me, so upset with my husband,and she said, honey, you don't
worry, you'll be all right.
And like I, just, it was so,you know, it was just such a
nice thing.
My plastic surgeon, like thekindest man, like I just had
some people, my my oncologist,you know, when I went on
Tamoxifen I said, making meemotional, when I went on
(46:03):
Tamoxifen I remember I said tohim I heard that Tamoxifen makes
you gain a lot of weight, isthat true?
And he said, renee, exercisethe hell out of it.
You know, I'm like just thereare just certain things that,
like people can do to changeyour experience.
And so family and friends.
I had my own family, um, youknow, my husband, my girls, like
(46:28):
couldn't have been moresupportive when I was first
diagnosed.
My kids were, my two daughterswere very young.
So they, you know, they didn't,they just knew I was having
surgery when I had cancer thesecond time they were older and
very loving, going through chemoand radiation, very supportive,
and of course that shaped theirlives as well and how they see
(46:50):
the world and health andsickness and all that.
Um, my husband, a rock througheverything.
Um, friends, I think that oneof the things that I learned, uh
, is that I, the first time Ihad cancer, was not someone who
ever asked for help because Iwas perfectionist and so I was
like I've got this, I don't wantto talk about it, I can handle
(47:12):
it.
Don't tell other people what'sgoing on with me.
It's none of their business,which, as we know, lends itself
to not getting much support.
Right and so that was somethingthat I learned about myself
going through the years.
So second time I had cancer Iwas like sure I'll welcome the
(47:33):
meal train that you drop foodoff of my house, sure you know
you can take my kids to school.
Like I was in a different spaceand I also was in a different
place to ask for help.
I remember earlier on reallystruggling the first time,
really struggling with beingangry at people because they
didn't treat me the way that Iwanted to be treated and I was
(47:56):
so conflicted about how I wantedto be treated because I wanted
to be strong and I didn't wantanyone to think that I was weak,
but if they didn't call, I wasangry and so much right.
And I think that's important toknow how to ask for help.
And then I think, just fromlike a basic human level, people
(48:19):
are very well intentioned butthey can say lose your breasts
Right.
Or like as soon as they met me,they would just like stare and
um, I had like that was thefirst question.
They wanted to know Um, which Ifound like you know, this is
what you're going to reduce meto Like it was very overwhelming
(48:41):
.
I had people often say to me.
Oh, I have a friend who died ofcancer, or my grandmother had
cancer, and I was like this isnot helpful.
Had people give me their youknow, expert medical opinion who
were not remotely in themedical field, like, well, when
you have chemo, this mighthappen to your fertility or you
(49:02):
know, and I was like this stuffis not helpful.
And so I think the thing thatis always helpful is to ask
somebody what they need from youand to not just say I'm there
when I'm here.
If you need me, because peopledon't want to, you know, take
you up on it, because theyalready feel like a burden or
they're struggling with theirown whatever right now.
(49:22):
And so to say, can I take yourkids to school on Wednesday?
Can I cook dinner for you onFriday?
Can I drive you to chemo?
Can I?
You know how can I help?
What can I drop off for you?
You know, I think that that'svery helpful.
Um, and telling somebody aboutrelatives who died from cancer
or went through a worst casescenario is not helpful.
(49:44):
Um, comparing, I had peoplecompare, people who didn't
really know what was going onwith me.
Oh, you have it so much easier.
This person had X.
Y and Z and I'm like I'm notgoing to compete about who has a
worse cancer.
Trust me, we're all losers here.
Kelly B Haney (50:02):
That's really helpful.
That's a good takeaway in thesense that when you say'm here
if you need me, it almost soundslike perfunctory, like this is
what I'm supposed to say, but bysaying something very specific
like can I take your kids toschool, can I bring you dinner,
that sounds like that's what gotthrough to you, as not just
(50:22):
yeah, this is actually going tobe helpful, but also this is
genuine.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (50:27):
Right.
And I think the other thing isthat your expectation that
certain people will show upsometimes is matched with their
showing up and sometimes it'snot.
I remember being very surprisedby people that I never thought
would show up.
You know, I remember some womandrove like an hour and a half
and hadn't made me like mashedpotatoes and chicken and all and
(50:49):
just drove to my house to dropit off, Right.
And then other people that youexpect to be there who flake out
, you know.
So really surprising.
Kelly B Haney (51:00):
Yeah, so, as we start to wrap up, we've covered
so much today.
There is one final question, avery important question, that I
am very eager to ask you.
In your center, and as a cancersurvivor, you obviously have
had a lot of hands-on experiencedealing with people who are
(51:23):
sick and, of course, going backto what you did years ago in
working with the families ofchildren with cancer, so you've
seen a lot, to say the least.
What would you say when youbreak it down?
What are the most significantingredients in the recipe of
success for those who are trulyseeking to transform their
(51:48):
health, transform their livesand to truly heal?
Dr. Renee Exelbert (51:54):
I think so much of that comes back to your
why right?
I know that's sort of cliche,that people say that a lot, but
it's very much about like whoyou are, what you want, how you
want to live your life right,and it's like what do you want?
right Like, if you want to liveyour life Right, and it's like
what, what do you want?
Right, like, if you want to behealthy, what do you need to do
to be healthy?
Right, re-examining, like, yourpriorities, um, re-examining
(52:20):
all of it.
You know your relationships,the people that you spend time
with, the music that you listento, the self-care practices, the
music that you listen to, theself-care practices, even your
clients.
You know, like all of it, like,um, and so I think that the
ingredients are like to real.
For me, they were really tolike, become much more mindful
(52:41):
about the things that I'm doingin my life.
I I don't spend time withpeople who I don't want to spend
time with.
When I get a phone call fromsomebody who I know is going to
dump on me, even if I love them,I've learned to say I can speak
to you for 10 minutes and thenI have to go, like, being more
(53:03):
protective of my own personalboundaries, so I'm not too
overwhelmed own personalboundaries, so I'm not too
overwhelmed, um, reallylistening to yourself about,
like, what you need, versus.
I think it's so much aboutbeing authentic, figuring out
what you need versus like whatother people need, trying to
listen to your inner voice more.
Um, that's like the mostsimplistic way I can say, but
(53:26):
like living your life for youand that's a big thing for me.
Like you know, I work with a lotof adolescents and I'm
constantly talking to them about, like, why it's so important
for them to get the approval ofthis person or that person or
social media Right.
When my daughters come out ofthe dressing room and ask me
what I think of you know theirhoochie mama shirt or whatever
(53:51):
I'm like, why do you care what Ithink I'm like?
And they get so annoyed with me.
But I'm like you know, I'm amom Like I may be wearing like
mom jeans and be like the mostuncool person in the world and
you want my opinion right?
Like, why is somebody else'sopinion of you more important
than your opinion of you?
Right?
(54:11):
Like, it doesn't matter what Ithink, it matters what you think
you know.
Live, live your life.
You only go around once, as faras I know, and it's not about
making other people happy.
It's about, like, doing whatfeels right for you and the more
you are tapped into that, itdoesn't matter what everyone
(54:32):
else is thinking, it justdoesn't matter.
Kelly B Haney (54:36):
Dr Axelbert, you're such an incredible
special person.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (54:40):
I'm so grateful, kelly you're making me
cry multiple times today.
It was such a joy to meet you.
I definitely know that we arekindred spirits.
Kelly B Haney (54:51):
You're amazing, thank you.
And speaking of tearing up, Idon't know if you could tell,
but I think about a dozen timesI almost had to reach for these
tissues because I know firsthandjust how powerful it is to hear
someone else's story and tojust be able to take from it and
apply it to.
(55:11):
Whatever you've been through,whatever pain you've been
through, it's always so helpfulto know that you're not alone in
this world and in pastsuffering or current sufferings.
I thank you so much for all thepeople that are going to hear
this and be helped by what yousaid today.
Dr. Renee Exelbert (55:28):
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you, Kelly.
Kelly B Haney (55:33):
I hope you enjoyed hearing that
conversation with Dr Renee asmuch as I enjoyed having it.
She is such a delight and sucha great example to all of us of
turning adversity into purposeand power.
If you are interested inlearning more about Dr Exelbert
or her work at the MetamorphosisCenter, go to her website,
(55:56):
drexelbertcom.
That's D-R-E-X-E-L-B-E-R-T dotcom.
You can also find informationon where to get her awesome book
Chemo Muscles there on the siteas well, and you can connect
with me at kellybhehaneycom orat kellybhehaney on Instagram.
(56:19):
And if you received value fromthis episode, I would greatly
appreciate it if you would takea moment to subscribe to the
show, download the episodes,rate and review and, of course,
please share it with anyone whoyou think may find value in it
as well.
Friends, I am honored to walkalongside of you as we heal and
(56:42):
stay healed together.
You.
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