June 19, 2024 • 46 mins
Join us for the season finale of Season 3 on Heal Your Roots Podcast, where Kira Yakubov Ploshansky, LMFT, and Dr. Katie Manganello, host Allen-Michael Lewis, LMFT - one of the newest team members at Heal Your Roots Wellness. Dive deep into the cultural narratives around food, body image, and relationships. Allen-Michael discusses the double standards and societal pressures faced by individuals regarding diet and body image. With a blend of personal anecdotes and professional insights, he highlights the impact of parental and cultural expectations on eating behaviors and mental health.
Episode Highlights:
- Cultural Perspectives on Food and Relationships (0:00):
Allen-Michael explores cultural double standards in food and body image, sharing personal and professional insights into addressing these issues in therapy sessions. - OCD, Eating Disorders, and Cultural Differences (8:01):
Dr. Katie Manganello discusses the manifestation of OCD in food habits and the pressures leading to eating disorders in children due to parental influence. - Societal Double Standards (13:24):
Examination of how men and women are differently judged based on their eating habits and body image, with a focus on societal and familial expectations. - Body Positivity and Internalized Shame (19:48):
Discussion on the importance of mindfulness and body acceptance, particularly among younger generations influenced by social media. - Impact of Family and Societal Comments on Body Image (25:41):
Insights into how negative comments from family and society can shape one's self-esteem and body image, with a discussion on the myths around body health and size. - Eating Disorders and Sensory Processing Conditions (33:19):
Addressing disordered eating and sensory processing issues such as ARFID and pica, and the associated stigma and shame. - Psychedelics in Therapy (39:26):
Exploring the potential of psychedelics in disrupting harmful mental narratives and creating pathways for healing, compared to traditional therapy methods.
This episode is a thoughtful exploration of how cultural narratives and personal experiences shape our relationships with food, body image, and mental health. Don't miss out on this engaging conversation!
Tune in now and subscribe to Heal Your Roots Podcast for more insightful episodes on relationships, mental health, and personal growth.
Episode Resources:
- Follow Allen-Michael Lewis on Instagram @MFTFoodie
- Learn more about Heal Your Roots Wellness at healyourrootswellness.com
Disclaimer: The content is intended for informational and educational purposes only
Check out the rest of the Heal Your Roots Podcast episodes at our website.
Learn more about Heal Your Roots Wellness
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
For men, it's like oh, like yousaid that Oh, you're growing boy
you need this. Like all of thatis kind of like heaped on and
that in some cultures that I'veworked with the idea of like
food is love, which I think isreally great like food as a way
of like showing love yourappreciation for the person, but
then it's almost like they'regiven a if they're given
something then they're slappedin the face for taking it. It's
(00:21):
like you need to eat you need toeat Oh, but don't eat too much.
Oh, you be in too much nowyou're now you're fat. Now
you're this and it's oftentimesthat double standard for for
women in the family. You know,their culture says you need to
eat this is how we show ourlove. But don't over indulge and
don't become fat because that isthe worst thing that can happen.
(00:43):
Welcome back to Heal Your RootsPodcast. I'm Kira Yakubov
Ploshansky. Joining me as guestco host Dr. Katie Manganello,
lol and our returning guest,Allen Michael Lewis, Licensed
Marriage and Family Therapistand director of internships at
counsel for relationships. Thankyou both for coming back on
today. Thanks for having me.
So excited to have us throughtalking today. This will be fun.
(01:06):
I know. So actually, we realizedthis after the fact. But Katie
and Allen actually know eachother outside of the psych
world. So this is this is gonnabe a fun one. I think we all
have pretty good chemistry thatwe can kind of flow in today's
episode together.
It's funny. I think that I wasasking Katie, oh, are you taking
new clients? Just like in ourpassing meeting? And she's like,
(01:28):
Yeah, send them my way. And thenyou announced that you were
going to be your roots. And I'mlike, crazy.
I know.
Small Worldreally a coincidence. Yeah.
So Alan, can you I know you'vebeen on an episode with us
before. But for any listenerswho may not have heard that
episode, can you share a littlebit about yourself and who you
(01:49):
work with?
Yeah, well, first of all, if youhaven't listened to that
episode, How dare you. I'm justkidding. So I am a licensed
Marriage and Family Therapist, Iwork at counsel for
relationships. I was director ofclinical internships. And I just
got a promotion to seniordirector of clinical programs.
(02:10):
So pretty still working with theinterns, but still working with
our programs for childadolescents, older adults, and
veterans as well. So excitingthings happening over here. But
for the clients that I see,usually I am working with folks.
communication, relationshipdynamics, and one of the things
(02:33):
that I'm really passionate aboutis food in general. But a lot of
the work that I do with myclients is talking about and
healing their relationship withfood. I was talking to somebody
recently, just in passing, Ithink, and I said, you know,
there are a lot of us that canquote, the one 899 Jenny, like,
(02:55):
from like, Jenny Craig, when wewere like little kids. And I was
like, if we can quote that. Imean, we need to have a
conversation about ourrelationship with food. Because
if we're little hearing thatjingle and thinking like, oh,
diet, culture is the way wereally need to consider our
thoughts about food. So that'show a lot of what I do with my
(03:16):
clients. And it's surprising howfood and their how it impacts
themselves, their relationship,their family, comes up a lot of
the sessions that I deal with myclients.
Yeah, absolutely. And Iappreciate you sharing that. I
know that you have your MF Tfoodie account, which I love
(03:36):
following you're always in likethe best spots and like you have
really good photos of all thefood that makes it super
enticing. I don't know if youhave affiliates with these
restaurants, but you totallyshould for advertising.
I don't yet but if you are arestaurant. Yeah, I just, I like
exploring. I do have my go twos.
So sometimes it's a littlerepetitive. But yeah, if you
(03:59):
have any recommendations, let meknow. Awesome.
Fun fact, Josh. And I, my fianceand I, we used to have a food
page too. And then it just kindof got lazy and stopped posting
on it. But yeah, we actuallyjust this week, and we're
talking about bringing it back.
Maybe after.
(04:21):
That's exciting. Did you guys goto different places as well?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we alsosimilarly had our go to places,
right, but yeah, we tried. Andsometimes we got free food. If
we told them, we were like, Oh,we have a food page. And then
they'd be like, Oh, here's afree dessert or something. So
(04:41):
that's fun. You should try thatif you have
that in the back of my head. forfuture use. Yeah.
I don't know. I feel I feel likesometimes I lead with the fact
that I'm a therapist instead. Sothen it turns into Yeah, you
know, there's a lot going on inmy life. And so then we actually
ended up talking about like,like, whoever is waiting on
(05:03):
their life for their experiencerather than like, oh, I have
this food page. So maybe Ishould lead with the fact that I
like food fordefinitely, definitely the is
the other way around. Yeah.
I can't tell you how many timesif I'm like, at a party or
really anywhere, and it's like,oh, what do you do? I'm a
therapist, like, I get like acouple of reactions. One, it's
like, are you judging me rightnow? And like, I'm not getting?
(05:25):
Are you? Are you gonna pay me?
Because I'll do it if you payme, but. And the other one is
like, just all their life story.
Just here's everything. Whatshould I do? I'm like, you can
book a section session. Or wecan just pretend like we're
normal people. And you don'thave to tell me.
I think that that's somethingwhen I'm talking with like the
interns or like somebody that'snewer in the field, and I ask,
(05:47):
why therapy, what brought youhere? And they're like, Well,
you know, I just listened topeople and people talk to me,
and I'm like, you know, that islike the therapist curse, but
also a blessing. You can be atlike a party, and you're like,
Oh, I love this potato salad.
And somebody's just like, mysister died in the war. And I'm
like, Okay, we were just talkingabout potato salad. Like, okay,
we're going there. Let me justsit down my plate. And we can
(06:11):
talk about this. But I was like,that is the current sound like,
people just want to talk to you.
So that's, that's good.
We have this way of makingpeople feel comfortable and
safe, right.
I think one of the things thatdoesn't feel safe is when you
start challenging some of yourlike, your familial patterns. So
(06:32):
I was talking about this idea oflike, diet, culture, and those
types of things. And so when youstart to challenge some of that
speaking, so it's like, youknow, your, your parent says, I
just ate so much, I shouldn'teat anything else. And it's
like, well, actually, that'srestrictive. And let's talk
about you know, and they'relike, Psycho and Analyze Me. And
I'm like, Well, no, I'm justtalking about the way we view
(06:54):
things. And we should probablyquestion why we think that way,
but they don't see me astherapist, they see me as a
child, but ithappens to be a therapist has
lots of opinions on things.
Yeah, but that's like usuallylike number five on the list of
things that I am to them. So.
(07:15):
So I did think that today wouldactually be a great opportunity
for us to talk about culturalperspectives on relationships
and food, because I think we allhave some background or some
overlap, dealing with you know,individuals or with families. I
mean, we're all social beings,we all have relationships, we
all have to eat, there's apretty big overlap and everybody
kind of having to navigate thisand having that cultural lens of
(07:38):
how different that looks andfeels within families I think is
really important to kind ofdiscuss or like to, to analyze a
little bit together.
It came for you I'm wonderinglike, does it does, like, how
does food come up in yoursessions? Does it come up at
all? Or like, it's like, itcomes up personally, but not
(08:01):
like sessions?
No, actually, it comes up a lot.
And it can show up for differentreasons. So Well, we actually
just recorded another episodewith one of my colleagues who
specializes in OCD as well. Butshe also specializes in eating
disorders. And we were sayinghow common in how much of an
overlap there is with eatingdisorders and OCD. So it could
(08:21):
show up in that sense, it canshow up if you were thinking
about like body image it canshow up with like body
dysmorphia. We will see thatfairly often. It can show up
with perfectionism. It shows upjust culturally and just you
know how I mean, we just becausewe're working on OCD doesn't
(08:44):
mean we don't talk about thosekinds of things. Right? It shows
up in terms of actually, reallyinterestingly, I have some
people I mean, there's a lot ofpeople who have emetophobia. So
like fear of throwing up, andthey'll avoid certain foods
because they don't, you don'twant it to trigger them having
to get sick or throwing up. Alot of people with OCD have a
(09:06):
lot of rituals around foodactually hand washing before
eating, like contamination,those kinds of things. Sometimes
we're doing exposures aroundsensory related difficulties
with food.
Sometimes it's a behavioralactivation homework and people
(09:28):
will bake me things and bringthem in. So actually, I feel
like I talked about food all thetime.
Giving a homework to everyone tomake me different kinds of
cookies.
Like you don't have to, but ifit's something you love to do
and want to bring them in. I'lleat that.
(09:51):
You just start going you startgoing through like a cookbook.
You're like let's go chapter.
Yeah, we're learning how to cookand so this would be A good
thing to learn and to then bringit.
Katie, how do you see that comeoff for different cultural
backgrounds for people who mayhave OCD and like struggle with
like food? Or how they eat foodand having like their families
(10:12):
input on it? Because you know,every cultural culture is
different a little bit aroundfood and how important it is,
are there certain things to eat?
Or like the way you eat beingfull things like that?
Well, I don't, I don't thinkthat that I've actually seen a
lot of diversity, at least whereI'm at right now as it relates
(10:33):
to cultural differences in foodand the way people eat, I would
say the most common thing thatcomes up is parents having diets
and you know, kids and teenagersfeeling like they need to, you
know, a lot of thatperfectionism or eating
disorders has a feeling likethey need to do eat certain
(10:54):
things or not eat certainthings. Sometimes parents are
putting that pressure on theirkids. Other times, the parents
are not putting pressure ontheir kids, and they could see
their parents just doing thesethings. So I think that's been
see, I see that kind of acrossthe board. Sometimes with
athletes too, that's anotherkind of thing too. I mean, they
(11:16):
obviously have their own kind ofthings and, and, you know, using
exercises, like a compensatorybehavior, so that's something
that shows up sometimes. So,yeah.
And I hate the, you know, I'mnot an I'm not an athlete,
surprise, surprise, or not. But,but I, you know, I like Taylor
(11:40):
Swift, I like Phil, you know,that kind of thing. But, you
know, I come from a family ofathletes, my brother, coaches,
professional lacrosse, as youcan see from my shirt. But
there's something that is alwayssaid of like, you know, it takes
determination, it takes this, ittakes that and almost like, you
having a really weirdrelationship with food is like,
(12:02):
praised, in some ways,especially for like, male
athletes, because I think thatfor men, there's this idea of
like, Oh, I'm cutting weight,and I'm like, You're seven, what
do you mean? Because they don'twant to go up a class or
something like that, you know,a, they decide to switch their
diet so that they are not eatingcertain foods, and I'm just
(12:22):
like, your body is growing in,you're getting rid of this food,
or this type of, you know, like,you know, car, you're getting
rid of all the carbs, I'm like,well, your body does need some
semblance of a carb, especiallywhen you're growing. But I think
that especially for, you know,men, this idea of like,
indulging, and it's like, oh, hejust eats everything. Oh, he
(12:43):
does that he does that. And Ithink that sometimes it's just
like, normalized, but you're notrealizing well, what if he has a
binge disorder, you know, like,what is what is, is that being
assessed for, but oftentimes,it's almost like, Oh, these
things are strictly female,which then puts a different type
of pressure. You know, I'mfemales, and it's just a
(13:03):
horrible dynamic. It's ahorrible system. But oftentimes,
this weird relationship withfood is praise. And I'm just
like, I don't love this. And Isee it as they grow up. And I
see it as like, my clients aretalking about their childhood.
And I'm just like, we reallyneed to stop doing this to our
kids.
(13:24):
I'm so glad you brought that up.
I was actually thinking aboutthat earlier that I feel like
it's so much more common forsociety and families to put more
focus, especially negative focuson females around food and
eating versus males, right, likeyou don't really think about if
men are binge eating, right,it's like, oh, they're growing.
He's a growing boy, he's justputting on weight or like, he's,
(13:44):
you know, eating clean, so hecan lose weight, and then he's
bulking up like this constantyo, yo, and it's seen as like,
they're just working on theirbody, and it's normal. But I
don't often hear or see clients,at least for me, having male
clients come in talking abouttheir relationship with food or
having it be something that islike, like, a conflict or an
(14:06):
issue with them. Everyone kindof sees it as like, oh, that's
just a normal thing for men todo. I'm glad you brought that
up.
Well, and then there's like thedouble standard too, because
like, for men, it's like, oh,like you said that Oh, you're
growing boy, you need this. Likeall of that is kind of like
heaped on and that in somecultures that I've worked with
(14:27):
the idea of like food is love,which I think is really great
like a food as a way of likeshowing love your appreciation
for the person. But then it'salmost like they're given a if
they're given something and thenthey're slapped in the face for
taking it. It's like, oh, youneed to eat you need to eat. Oh,
but don't eat too much. Oh, yoube in too much. Now you're now
you're fat. Now you're this andit's oftentimes that double
(14:48):
standard for for women in thefamily. You know, their culture
says you need to eat. This ishow we show our love. But don't
overindulge and don't become fatbecause that is the worst thing
that canhappen. I feel like that's
pretty prevalent. across a lotof cultures, because I'm
thinking about like, EasternEuropean like that is constantly
right, like showing love throughfood cooking, and showing that
you love them back is eatingeverything off of your plate,
(15:10):
and making sure you tell themhow much you loved it and
enjoyed it. And if you don't eatit at all, it's rude. Like you
didn't like my food, but then atthe same time, they judge you
for your appearance. And makeall these comments like in our
culture, it's like, oh, shelooks healthy. If someone says
you look healthy means you puton weight. That's they're a nice
way of saying you put on weightand like, you shouldn't be
(15:31):
eating that much. But also eateverything off your plate to not
be rude, but don't get fat. Likehe hears these double standards.
Yeah,yeah. It's how I'm part Italian.
That part of my culture, myupbringing is very much men that
have same kind of messages beingreinforced. And I think it's I
mean, obviously, as generationsare, you know, going down the
(15:52):
line things change. But yeah, Iwould say that's like, really,
it's it was really commonamongst like grandparents saying
things like that even some olderaunts and uncles like, Yeah,
haveyou? I'm wondering how you both
respond. When you hear somebodysay like, you know, Hi, my name
is so and so. And I'm a fat siswoman. There's the it's I think
(16:13):
it's great that folks are like,reclaiming that title of like
being fat and like, this is mybody. This is what it looks
like. But there is this internallike, like this gap. When
somebody says I'm, I'm fat itbecause the immediate response
is like, No, you're not, you'rethis, you're that you know, and
so it just is, you know, Katie,you're talking about, like how
(16:34):
things shift. And now this ideaof like reclaiming this word as
fat, that's not derogatory. It'sjust a way of describing your
body. It's like, I don't knowhow you both respond if you're,
if you've ever experienced that,but
I've never experienced anyoneactually present saying that
about themselves ever. I'veheard about it in like trainings
and things and how we, you know,the continuing education for us
(16:57):
to be aware of that, so I'maware of it, but I've never had
anybody come in and be like, um,you know, or like, I identify as
a fat woman, like nobody does,or at least nobody that I have
seen, not that nobody ever does,but nobody that I have worked
with.
Yeah, similar. I haven't hadanyone, if anything, it's the
opposite. Like, oh, I'm fat. AndI say it in a much like, in a
(17:17):
very negative way. Or this, howI it's like very much surrounded
by a negative, right, like howpeople are treating them, how
they feel about themselves, whenthey think they deserve their
worth all of it around like thisone observation of their body
type. But I haven't had anyonelike Katie said, come in to say
it in a positive way, or justlike a matter of fact, way.
(17:38):
And it reminded me of, you know,when I follow because I think it
was also a therapist. It waslike, I I'm a fat queer
therapist, and I'm like, Oh,this is a lot. This is like,
I'm, I'm like, I feel like Ihave to be like, No, that's
okay. You know, but it remindedme of somebody. They were
talking, and they said, Oh,yeah, I'm fat. And the person
(18:00):
goes, No, you're beautiful. Andthey just go, Well, I said, I
was fine. I didn't say that. Iwasn't beautiful. You know. And
I was like, that's important.
Because I think a lot of timesthat you hear somebody say I'm
fat, the connotation is like,oh, this person doesn't think
that they're beautiful. Theydon't think that they're
attractive. So now that peopleare reclaiming this word of fat,
it's like, there is this, thisknee jerk reaction of, oh, I
have to praise this person,because I feel some type of way
(18:22):
when, when in reality, it'slike, do they do they feel that
way? Yeah, just the assumptionor the stigma, the fat phobia.
It's so deeply ingrained in ourquote, like, so deep, I'm trying
to break it myself. Because Ihave a daughter. And it's just
so hard, right? Like, logically,cognitively, I can understand
this doesn't mean anythingnegative, but it's still
(18:43):
emotionally like those thoughts,those beliefs and narratives
keep popping up to think aboutthat, like if someone thought I
was or I look this way, right?
It's, it's interesting to thinkabout how deeply it's weighed
into our, like, the fabric ofour society that's like, even
when if a child like I rememberseeing like little kids, like,
You're fat, and then the momwill go, oh, how dare you say
that that's so rude. Whenthey're, they're a kid, they're
(19:04):
just making an observation aboutsomebody.
The common thing for kids too,is like, Oh, you have a big
belly. And immediately, theparents are like, Oh, my God,
and it's like, you know, I dohave a big belly, or they do
have a big belly. There arecertain things that a child can
point out, like, Oh, you have anice smile, but like, when it's
(19:26):
like factual things, it's thenseen as derogatory or rude. And
I'm just like, oh, the kidsdon't know. Or like, is this
teaching them something? Iunderstand, not commenting on
other people's bodies. But isthere a way that we can redirect
the behavior without making thisconnotation of a big belly is
bad?
(19:48):
Yeah, it's a very mindfulapproach, actually. Because if
we're thinking of the definitionof mindfulness, right, like
paying attention to the presentmoment, on purpose without
judgment, and like, we can justkind of accept a As a way of
defining something for what itis without having like that
judgment towards it, it takeseverything away from it. It's
the same with any of this othertreatment, right? Like, a lot of
(20:10):
times people with OCD arejudging their thoughts all the
time. And that's when they makethese assumptions about, oh, I'm
a bad person, because I havethese thoughts. Right? Well,
really, it's just a thought yourthought, Okay. Same with, okay,
my body has fat. Okay. Andwhat's wrong with that? Right?
Yeah,I think this generation Gen Z is
(20:31):
definitely going to, I thinkbreak a lot of that, which I
think is great, too, is a lotmore body acceptance, and just
not feeling so shameful ornegative about themselves
constantly,like social media, like on one
hand, yes, they are better withsome of that, but they also are
so impacted by social media andlike comparing themselves to
(20:55):
other people. Like I have morepeople that are younger, come in
and say things will be like, Oh,she's a, you know, a body
positive, or like acceptingqueen or something like that.
But, but then when they're alsotalking about themselves, it's
like, okay, but like, that girlon Instagram looks better than
me kind of thing. So it's tough.
(21:18):
It's a work in progress.
It takes time. One thing I dolove is that I feel like you see
the trickle of this, like,attempt to be body positive, or
like, you know, not, you know,go into these like, negative,
like, really like diet filledkind of thoughts. You see, it
trickled through the othergenerations. So it's almost like
millennial folks are like, Yeah,I feel confident in myself,
(21:40):
right? Gen Z, and they're like,Yeah, you should, and
millennials are like, Yeah, Iam, they're a little bit more
confident. And as opposed tobeing told, You're ruining the
world. And your avocado toast iswhy you can't afford a house.
You know, like, Gen Z is like,no, here are great. And
Millennials are like, great, youknow, like whisper.
(22:05):
In Katy, you mentioned socialmedia. I think one of the other
things, you know, obviously,tick tock, you know, depending
upon when this episode airs,rip, tick, tock, I'm just
kidding. But, um, you know,there's a couple on there. I
think her name is Alicia. Andthen her husband's name is
Scott. And Alicia has a biggerbody. And then Scott is more
(22:28):
physically fit. And the commentsthat she has to go through, you
know, we've talked about, youknow, family, and we've talked
about, you know, parent child,but then I'm also thinking about
the dynamic of being in arelationship and having to
navigate differences about thetype, you know, because
everybody thinks, oh, Scottcould do better Scott could do
this guy could do that. Whenhe's actually saying, like, No,
(22:51):
this is my wife, I love thisperson. I don't, you know, like,
her body is her body, Icelebrate her body, I worship
her body, like, by all of thecomments, even if it's like, oh,
we're going on a date, there'sgonna be like, Why are you with
her? Oh, my God, he's so muchbetter. And I'm just like, yeah,
social media is a place thateven if you're trying to be
(23:13):
positive about yourself, youknow, there's somebody waiting
in the wings to just, you know,tear you down with these like
attacks for no reason, like,what are they going to get out
of it,I've actually think I've seen
those same couple, where themale was like, really bill and
fit, and then his partner is ina bigger body. And I've seen
those comments. And it's just sointeresting to think about, even
like the cultural perspective oflike, a heterosexual
(23:33):
relationship, like, whichpartner is more attractive, or
they can do better just based ontheir physical appearance, like,
we don't know anything elseabout this person's personality,
how they treat them, how theymake them feel what they have to
offer in a relationship, right?
Like, we're just basing it offof this person looks fit, this
one doesn't. This one should getwith someone more attractive, or
(23:55):
on their level or something, orthat a male who is attractive
would date a woman who's not asattractive versus the other way
around, which I think is likeseen as more common in our
society. So it's an interestingthing to point out,
right? And if it's the womandating a male who's less
attractive, it's because he hasmoney. Like that's another one
(24:17):
of these like things, it's like,well, it's okay, because, you
know, she's doing it for themoney,
or he has a really good job, orthere's something else going on
or redeeming quality here.
Yeah, there's always this senseof like, if you are a big well,
and also I think that if you'rea larger man, it's almost like,
that's okay. You know, ifyou're, if you are, you know,
(24:40):
like bigger, you're bulkier, upto a point, it's okay. But when
you start looking like flabby oryou know, that, you know, oh,
you're eating too much likethat's when it shifts from, oh,
you're in this like standardrelationship to, oh, why is she
with this person when they don'ttake care of themselves? That is
the biggest comment Oh, ifyou're bigger, you don't take
(25:01):
care of yourself. And I'm justlike, you don't know, you are
just making a snap judgmentbased off of a body type that's
bigger than yours. Or it's basedoff of internalized messages
that you've heard and thatyou're projecting those, I see
it a lot in the sessions that Ihave where it's like, you know,
this, you know, I was alwaystold I wasn't good enough. And
it was based off with somebodyin their family or in their
(25:22):
close circle, who was actuallyprojecting some of those
internalized messagesthemselves. And it's really
unfortunate, because I'm justlike, your body type is not
necessarily going to be the sameas everybody in your circle. And
it's really unfortunate to haveso many projects that onto you,
when that was never how yourbody type was going to be.
That's tough to think about thefamily. Impact on like those
(25:44):
messages, too. I think it's, youknow, the world is pretty tough
as it is. But then when you'regrowing up in a family and
having like your parents orsiblings or family members
making negative comments aboutyour body, or pointing things
out that you might either didn'tknow what you should feel
insecure about, based on thesecomments, or now that you
already are constantly sayingthese things. I feel like it
(26:05):
makes it like there's no safeplace, right for you to just
like exist in your body and becomfortable. Because how can you
be mindful and present? Whenyou're constantly going through
these thought process of whatare they thinking about me? Do I
look bad? How am I looking?
Should I cover my stomach?
Alright, it's like a kind oflike the OCD, right? You have
all these thoughts going throughnonstop and how can you be
(26:27):
present or enjoy yourrelationships or whatever you're
doing in that moment when youconstantly have this like
chatter in your head and outsidein your family, too?
Yeah, and I also this is like, alittle off, but like I going
back to what you were sayingabout how it's like more
acceptable for men to be inbigger bodies. Like, I was
thinking about how women arealways like, I love it. Dad,
(26:50):
like y'all, that are very like,I love a mom. Like, that doesn't
happen.
That's so funny. You know, theysay MILFs but that's not what
they mean.
Yeah. Like even Hollywoodstandards, it's like, Oh, I love
(27:13):
you know, Pamela Anderson, or Ilove Taylor. I love Taylor
Swift. But you know, like, a lotof people will say, I love
Taylor Swift. You know, but thenthey'll be like, Oh, I love Adam
Sandler. Oh, Adam Sandler sohot. And I'm like,
yeah, like, everybody's like,Oh, yeah, but for women. It's
(27:35):
like Stacy's mom. Yeah,she's got it going on.
I'm like, Go Adam Sandler, youknow? Yeah, I'm like, Go Adam
Sandler, you are getting it.
You're living the dream. Butlike, there's even that double
standard, like, like you said,like, you know, they say no, but
it isn't because they like amom. It's like, no, it's this
person who's fit? And is cookingand have time between kids to go
get lingerie? And I'm like,that's, that's the standard?
(28:01):
I'm gonna tell you. That is not.
No one's got time for that.
Somebody who's listening islike, Excuse me, I do.
Good for you. For you let meknow who's your babysitter? And
are they affordable, because Ineed this in my life.
(28:23):
I'm speaking I'm Taylor Swift,because you know, I was going to
bring her up. Maybe I am lookinga little bit too much into the
era's tour, but hear me out.
Because, you know, as I said,there is that standard response,
if you're bigger, you don't takecare of yourself. And I
immediately think of Eris towarddancers, there are so many
different body types representedon her dance like team. And I'm
(28:46):
like, you cannot tell me thatany of those people, no matter
what their body type look like,doesn't take care of themselves.
They are running, they'rejumping, they are dancing their
heart out for hours. And, youknow, it just shows like, no,
your body is just going to lookthe way that it looks. It
(29:06):
doesn't mean that you'reunhealthy. If you're a bigger
body, these people are doingthings that I already get tired,
like watching them do andthey're just doing it in the
heat and everything. So I'm justlike, I don't think that this
adage of like, if you're bigger,you're not taking care of
yourself. I don't think that itstands on anything because yeah,
I'll say go watch Aris tour. Butyou should watch it anyway. But
(29:28):
really just I think I think itreally does take something Yeah,
or just go to the gym. I thinkthis every morning when I when I
go to the gym and I see otherpeople and I look at the
different kinds of bodies thatpeople have. And it's like, I
know this isn't like you know,your first week at the gym like
I see the same people and I'veseen them for months and
(29:49):
everybody has a different typeof body some much bigger, some
much smaller and I mean it bringit back to food like it that
plays a lot into it. doesn'tmean you're not taking care of
yourself or at least in terms ofexercise. In fact, perhaps
you're not taking care ofyourself. Not always. But you
(30:09):
know, sometimes people insmaller bodies are not taking
him themselves. Like there's areason that people with eating
disorders, you know, like, it'sone of the highest mortality
rates for mental health and youknow, so that's scary.
Have you had any experience withit's like a, an aversion to
(30:33):
eating certain types of food Iwant, I want to say it's FICA,
it's not FICA, that's a creditscore. Well, not the, like, I'm
so mad because I'm like seeingit in my head, but it's all
like, shadowy, and once again, Ifollow somebody on Tik Tok, who,
they have this thing where theycan't eat certain foods, like
they have an aversion to eatinglike foods, because I'm like,
(30:55):
texture, and there's a name forit, but I'm not going to be able
to remember right now. But inthe video, you go on a journey
with this person. And it's notbecause they're picky eaters.
It's not because they just arelike, Oh, I stick to what I
know. It's like, literally, it'sa mental battle for me to eat
this new substance. And it was,it's really cool to be able to
(31:17):
see this person, like, try thenew foods and like, you know,
love the flavors, or like, Ihate the consistency, but it was
nice to try that kind of thing.
But even that, sometimes it'slike, downgraded to Well, that's
not a just eating disorder,that's, you know, you're just
being picky. And it's like, no,you don't get to tell people
like what they're going throughdoesn't matter when it comes to
food, their relation to it,relationship to it, and the way
(31:38):
that they have to kind of liketalk themselves into eating
certain foods.
Yeah, for sure. I see that withautism spectrum disorder all the
time. Like, that's like a bigpresenting thing that I see
working with individuals on theautism spectrum. Yeah, we, we
see a lot of different foodsensitivities. And like I was
(32:00):
saying, like around sensoryrelated things. Oh, my gosh,
that reminds me, this is notrelated. It is related. But it's
not really it's related to me.
This weekend, I was gettingsushi and my brother got this
boba tea. And I never had itbefore. And I always envisioned
the the little like bubbles liketo pop in your mouth. And I
guess there are some that do.
(32:22):
But the ones that I tried do notpop in your mouth. And you
should see my face when I wastrying that because I was like,
so surprised because I thoughtit was going to like, and that
would be like this nice littlelike, satisfying moment of it
bursting and it didn't and itwas like, like mushy and slimy.
(32:44):
And like, for me with my sensorydesires. That was not it.
Keep my jokes to myself, Ican't eat. I can't. I can't do
it. I can't do bubble tea. Andit's for that same reason. My
body's like, Oh, we're drinkingsomething. And then when there's
something that comes up that issupposed to be like chewed or
(33:05):
something that shouldn't behappening, you know? Like, spit
in it or something like that.
And I'm like, some people swearby bubble tea. And I think
that's wonderful for them.
Right? For me, my body's justlike, we cannot do this. We
can'tdo I have that feeling about
rice pudding? I think it's verysimilar. Like rice pudding
really rubs me the wrong way toyoga. Ya know? It's interesting
(33:26):
that you brought up on it'scheese. I actually like cottage
cheese. I love cheese. But Ithink there's a lot of I don't
want to say disorders, but a lotof sensory processing conditions
where that comes up, right, likefeeling icky, or having this
(33:47):
like unsettling experiencearound food or different things.
Does that? I mean, I know I haveADHD that's like part of it. Do
you see that at all? Katie orAlan, like anybody with
different kinds of like mentalhealth disorders, having that
very similar experience with itthat may not be an eating
disorder, but like something interms of like sensory
(34:07):
processing? Yeah, absolutely.
We,I would categorize that under
like, Disgust got what was theterm the term is arfid.
Or, wait, I'm sorry, what isarfid? avoidant
restrictive food intakedisorder, that's the one where
(34:29):
it's what I was talking aboutthe that, like the aversion to
eating, like certain foods orlike restricting what type of
food you are eating, and thenyou know that it's not just
like, Oh, I'm picky. It's moreof like this cognitive, like, I
am fighting to, like, go out ofmy way to do this, you know, so
(34:49):
I'm glad you look that up.
Because when you said FICA, Ithought of pica, and I was like,
but that's not the same thing.
That's like when people areeating things that they
shouldn't be eating right likechalk or whatnot, which is is
also like a legitimate disorder.
So interesting. Is there a show?
I think there's a show on Idon't know if it's like Bravo or
like High Street. Yeah.
(35:09):
Something like that. And like Iremember watching one episode
with this lady, he just couldnot stop eating mothballs. So
interesting. It's fascinating tosee like, what our minds either
like are disgusted by and justpush away versus like what we
just cannot help but do becausesomehow it's satisfying in some
way, right? Like cognitivelysomething's going on. To make
(35:30):
that like make you want to dosomething that that you know, is
not good for you. I guess thatgoes for a lot of things in our
life.
Well, and then being able tolike bring it up to talk about
it, because there's so muchshame around it like, Oh, this
is very weird for me, even whenit is like, Oh, I might be
picky, or, you know, I do havedisordered eating, or this is
(35:50):
going on, like the the shame ofbringing that up. Because it's
this idea of like, oh, you know,you need to, you know, fit this
image of health, you need to dothis. But you know, we don't
care how you do it, just do it.
And so this idea of like, oh, Ihave disordered eating, or I am
restricting, or I'm binging.
There's a lot of shame in that.
And for my clients, just evenbeing able to, you know,
(36:12):
recognize that maybe theirrelationship with food isn't as
healthy. And even for myself, astherapists being able to say to
myself, like my relationshipwith food isn't always the
healthiest. And what does thatmean? And who do I have in my
support system to talk about itwith because just kind of
keeping it in yourself and keepin your head and keeping it to
yourself? It just keeps you inthat shame spiral? And it's
(36:34):
like, how am I going to get outof this, other than find that
community that's going tosupport me? And allow me to kind
of share with this is what'sgoing on with me? What does that
mean for my relationship withfood? Yeah, I feel like a lot of
people, either they'reconsidered picky eaters, or some
people might view them that way,or eating disorders, like people
around them make these commentslike, we'll just try it, like
(36:56):
just this pushy nature of like,just do it, it's not a big deal.
You're it's just willpower, oryou're just being silly, like,
just do the thing. Withouttaking time to think about like,
this isn't just like a quickdecision or something like that,
like this is ongoing, like anongoing struggle, internal
battle that they're having. So Ithink just like, also letting
(37:18):
people know, if someone seemslike a picky eater, like, don't
force them, right, if someone issober, and they're coming to a
party, and they don't drink,don't continue asking them to
drink something, right? Like yourespect people's decisions and
wishes to like, do what theyneed to do for themselves.
Yeah, and I think just this ideaof, you know, Jeff, do X. I
(37:42):
mean, you know, we've heard theadage of like, Oh, I'm
depressed. Well be happy. Whodid not think about that? Wow, I
bet. So it's like, oh, you'vebeen donate as much. Who would
have? Who would have thoughtthat? Are you thinking? This is
crazy? You know, I wish it werethat easy.
(38:05):
Yeah, sad people all the time.
Get just don't think about it.
Wow.
Great idea. We would all be outof jobs. If it was that easy.
This whole field?
I would love that. Yeah, hey,just communicate better? You
(38:26):
know, I'll communicate. Let meget that. Let me get that
message to my mind. And like,let me stop overthinking. Or let
me stop, you know, ruminating onthis fact, you know, so, I would
love being out of a job. Butthat's not what people need.
People. People need therapy. Andyou know, I would love for that
(38:47):
to be true. But, you know, someof these things that we are just
just do this. It's deeper thanthat. And I'm hoping that for
anybody who's listening who, whohas been told, Oh, Jeff, do this
thing. Unfortunately, as youknow, it's not going to be that
easy. So, definitely reachingout to folks who are here to
support and help this probably,and hopefully your next step,
(39:10):
after hearing some of the thingswe're talking about. I
mean, these things are habitsand patterns that are ingrained,
right, like just automaticallylike a default that goes
through. You know, like, justwhen you start your day, like
you wake up, you might go to thebathroom, brush your teeth, like
it's just on autopilot. Some ofthis like this is ingrained of
things that you just do. Trystarting a new habit. It is not
easy, right? Even if it'ssomething you want to do, it's
(39:31):
good for you. There's all thesereasons you've been set up
everything around you, you'restill gonna like fall off
because it takes a long time tolike develop something
different, right? Like, it's awhole paradigm shift. It's not
just I do this thing one time,and now it sticks forever. Like
it's just not how our brainswork. I think it's people have a
hard time recognizing that inother people and not themselves,
(39:55):
right? Because how many timeshave we all tried to do
something and it doesn't stickbut we think someone else can do
Just fix something or dosomething different, there'll be
fine. So there's actually this.
This is like unrelated but kindof related in. So when I was
learning about like psychedelicsand things, how it impacts our
brain, there's actually thisthing called the default mode
network in our brain that haslike these neurological pathways
(40:16):
that like build grooves forbeliefs and narratives that we
have constantly. And so therewas like this good example in
this book called change yourmind or change my mind is that
when you know you're born, youhave all of these messages
coming at you, if you think oflike a field of snow, if you
walk down a certain path, whereyour footsteps are, you continue
(40:38):
to go down that same path,right? Because the footsteps are
already there. So it's kind oflike the beliefs we have about
ourselves and these narrativesis just constantly the same
thing. Like I'm a bad person, orI'm fat, or bla bla bla, right.
And then when you do apsychedelic, it shakes it up
like a snowglobe and puts inlays flat snow again, and you
can have a new belief or a newnarrative about yourself, that
(40:59):
wasn't there before. And itcreates this whole new path for
you to think about yourself insuch a different way. And it
actually sticks, because it's onsuch a deeper neurological level
than just on like a consciouslevel. So that was super
fascinating. Yeah, wow. That'ssimply saying. That's my small
TED Talk.
(41:26):
That almost sounds like whathappens when I like engage folks
in narrative therapy, this senseof like, attempting to rewrite
this narrative and attemptingto, you know, like, focus on
this old, unfortunate or nothelpful narrative as the issue
and working to, you know, blockit from continuing and forging
(41:48):
this new way of thinking.
Obviously, it seems like alittle bit more internal and
medical, but, and probably alittle bit more short term than
long term Narrative Therapy. Butit does sound like that very
similar thing of like, justlaying this new narrative and
laying this new thought pattern,and kind of deleting that old
(42:09):
way of thinking.
Yeah, very similarly, I wasthinking about treating PTSD and
doing like cognitive processingtherapy, especially if you're
doing the version where you'rewriting the account out. Either
way, you're still trying to kindof reframe a lot of those
beliefs. And it makes sensebecause there's so much research
coming out now about likepsychedelics and treating PTSD.
(42:33):
So we got some interesting stuffcoming up in the field around
thatI'm super excited for I think
it's gonna be the next wave isthe psychedelics are coming
through. I'm ready for it. I'vebeen fascinated in love with
this for a really long time. Ithink that maps, I think it's
the MultidisciplinaryAssociation of psychedelics just
passed their law in Oregon to beable to provide us Silis is it
(42:56):
no psychedelic assisted therapywith MDMA, for social anxiety
and for trauma, because they'veseen the, the trials that they
were doing on social anxiety isthat when people were taking
this, and going through it,their symptoms, even PTSD, I
think it was like 40 to 50% ofthe participants no longer
qualified for the diagnosis ofPTSD, after I think, three or
(43:20):
four, don't quote me, I forgethow many, but like a certain
amount of being able to takethis with a therapist, they're
in a safe environment andeverything, and then no longer
can, being able to identify orno longer having that diagnosis,
because their symptoms were goneover six months. Like this
(43:40):
wasn't like a week later, theytest that it was like over a six
month period, they were able tosee like they were no longer
having PTSD, which is wild tothink
about. I'm curious how that myhow, like, these types of
treatments don't apply to like,disordered eating and like those
types of processes? And hasthere been any, like, study on
(44:00):
that? I'm sure. I'm sure onceinsurances find out that this is
a shorter stay, then they'regonna make this great, you know,
so yeah, we'll see thethe policies and the regulations
around it. But I mean, thesethings have been around for
forever, right? Indigenouspeople have been using these
plant medicines, I could go intothis for like another five
hours. But this just made methink about all of this is how
(44:21):
much it shifts our narrativesand our beliefs. Like you were
saying, like narrative therapy,or cognitive processing is like
changing the beliefs, right?
It's not just doing the thing,it has to go in hand in hand
with like, the actual belief andthoughts we have with it.
Otherwise, it's pretty shortlived. So we're getting close to
the end. Is there anythingeither of you want to share any
(44:43):
closing thoughts for thelisteners? This was like, kind
of a rogue episode where we kindof just like, went with the
flow, which was really cool.
Yeah, I think that one of thebiggest takeaways is, you know,
if you're a clinician reallybeing willing to go into those
hard conversations about foodand the relationship of food,
and not just assuming that it'snot necessarily playing a role
(45:06):
in the things that you'retalking about in therapy.
Because I think it is somethingthat is often overlooked,
especially by clinicians andreally start challenging some of
your internal thoughts aboutfood. And then if you're a
listener who's struggling withtheir own internalized thoughts
about food, you know, reach outif you don't have a community
that's going to be supportive,reach out to a therapist, reach
(45:28):
out to myself, so that we mightbegin, you know, exploring,
like, what does a healthyrelationship with food look like
for you? And what are someinternalized, you know, thoughts
or patterns that you've noticedthat you need support in
breaking and changing? Well,Alan, thank you so much for
being a guest on today andreturning. This was awesome,
Katie. Thanks for guest cohosting. This is a great time.
(45:49):
Thanks so much for both being onand if you liked this episode,
please like, share andsubscribe. And we'll see you in
two weeks. Yes, thanks so much.
For men, it's like oh, like yousaid that Oh, you're growing boy
you need this. Like all of thatis kind of like heaped on and
that in some cultures that I'veworked with the idea of like
food is love, which I think isreally great like food as a way
of like showing love yourappreciation for the person, but
then it's almost like they'regiven a if they're given
something then they're slappedin the face for taking it. It's
(00:21):
like you need to eat you need toeat Oh, but don't eat too much.
Oh, you be in too much nowyou're now you're fat. Now
you're this and it's oftentimesthat double standard for for
women in the family. You know,their culture says you need to
eat this is how we show ourlove. But don't over indulge and
don't become fat because that isthe worst thing that can happen.
(00:43):
Welcome back to Heal Your RootsPodcast. I'm Kira Yakubov
Ploshansky. Joining me as guestco host Dr. Katie Manganello,
lol and our returning guest,Allen Michael Lewis, Licensed
Marriage and Family Therapistand director of internships at
counsel for relationships. Thankyou both for coming back on
today. Thanks for having me.
So excited to have us throughtalking today. This will be fun.
(01:06):
I know. So actually, we realizedthis after the fact. But Katie
and Allen actually know eachother outside of the psych
world. So this is this is gonnabe a fun one. I think we all
have pretty good chemistry thatwe can kind of flow in today's
episode together.
It's funny. I think that I wasasking Katie, oh, are you taking
new clients? Just like in ourpassing meeting? And she's like,
(01:28):
Yeah, send them my way. And thenyou announced that you were
going to be your roots. And I'mlike, crazy.
I know.
Small Worldreally a coincidence. Yeah.
So Alan, can you I know you'vebeen on an episode with us
before. But for any listenerswho may not have heard that
episode, can you share a littlebit about yourself and who you
(01:49):
work with?
Yeah, well, first of all, if youhaven't listened to that
episode, How dare you. I'm justkidding. So I am a licensed
Marriage and Family Therapist, Iwork at counsel for
relationships. I was director ofclinical internships. And I just
got a promotion to seniordirector of clinical programs.
(02:10):
So pretty still working with theinterns, but still working with
our programs for childadolescents, older adults, and
veterans as well. So excitingthings happening over here. But
for the clients that I see,usually I am working with folks.
communication, relationshipdynamics, and one of the things
(02:33):
that I'm really passionate aboutis food in general. But a lot of
the work that I do with myclients is talking about and
healing their relationship withfood. I was talking to somebody
recently, just in passing, Ithink, and I said, you know,
there are a lot of us that canquote, the one 899 Jenny, like,
(02:55):
from like, Jenny Craig, when wewere like little kids. And I was
like, if we can quote that. Imean, we need to have a
conversation about ourrelationship with food. Because
if we're little hearing thatjingle and thinking like, oh,
diet, culture is the way wereally need to consider our
thoughts about food. So that'show a lot of what I do with my
(03:16):
clients. And it's surprising howfood and their how it impacts
themselves, their relationship,their family, comes up a lot of
the sessions that I deal with myclients.
Yeah, absolutely. And Iappreciate you sharing that. I
know that you have your MF Tfoodie account, which I love
(03:36):
following you're always in likethe best spots and like you have
really good photos of all thefood that makes it super
enticing. I don't know if youhave affiliates with these
restaurants, but you totallyshould for advertising.
I don't yet but if you are arestaurant. Yeah, I just, I like
exploring. I do have my go twos.
So sometimes it's a littlerepetitive. But yeah, if you
(03:59):
have any recommendations, let meknow. Awesome.
Fun fact, Josh. And I, my fianceand I, we used to have a food
page too. And then it just kindof got lazy and stopped posting
on it. But yeah, we actuallyjust this week, and we're
talking about bringing it back.
Maybe after.
(04:21):
That's exciting. Did you guys goto different places as well?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we alsosimilarly had our go to places,
right, but yeah, we tried. Andsometimes we got free food. If
we told them, we were like, Oh,we have a food page. And then
they'd be like, Oh, here's afree dessert or something. So
(04:41):
that's fun. You should try thatif you have
that in the back of my head. forfuture use. Yeah.
I don't know. I feel I feel likesometimes I lead with the fact
that I'm a therapist instead. Sothen it turns into Yeah, you
know, there's a lot going on inmy life. And so then we actually
ended up talking about like,like, whoever is waiting on
(05:03):
their life for their experiencerather than like, oh, I have
this food page. So maybe Ishould lead with the fact that I
like food fordefinitely, definitely the is
the other way around. Yeah.
I can't tell you how many timesif I'm like, at a party or
really anywhere, and it's like,oh, what do you do? I'm a
therapist, like, I get like acouple of reactions. One, it's
like, are you judging me rightnow? And like, I'm not getting?
(05:25):
Are you? Are you gonna pay me?
Because I'll do it if you payme, but. And the other one is
like, just all their life story.
Just here's everything. Whatshould I do? I'm like, you can
book a section session. Or wecan just pretend like we're
normal people. And you don'thave to tell me.
I think that that's somethingwhen I'm talking with like the
interns or like somebody that'snewer in the field, and I ask,
(05:47):
why therapy, what brought youhere? And they're like, Well,
you know, I just listened topeople and people talk to me,
and I'm like, you know, that islike the therapist curse, but
also a blessing. You can be atlike a party, and you're like,
Oh, I love this potato salad.
And somebody's just like, mysister died in the war. And I'm
like, Okay, we were just talkingabout potato salad. Like, okay,
we're going there. Let me justsit down my plate. And we can
(06:11):
talk about this. But I was like,that is the current sound like,
people just want to talk to you.
So that's, that's good.
We have this way of makingpeople feel comfortable and
safe, right.
I think one of the things thatdoesn't feel safe is when you
start challenging some of yourlike, your familial patterns. So
(06:32):
I was talking about this idea oflike, diet, culture, and those
types of things. And so when youstart to challenge some of that
speaking, so it's like, youknow, your, your parent says, I
just ate so much, I shouldn'teat anything else. And it's
like, well, actually, that'srestrictive. And let's talk
about you know, and they'relike, Psycho and Analyze Me. And
I'm like, Well, no, I'm justtalking about the way we view
(06:54):
things. And we should probablyquestion why we think that way,
but they don't see me astherapist, they see me as a
child, but ithappens to be a therapist has
lots of opinions on things.
Yeah, but that's like usuallylike number five on the list of
things that I am to them. So.
(07:15):
So I did think that today wouldactually be a great opportunity
for us to talk about culturalperspectives on relationships
and food, because I think we allhave some background or some
overlap, dealing with you know,individuals or with families. I
mean, we're all social beings,we all have relationships, we
all have to eat, there's apretty big overlap and everybody
kind of having to navigate thisand having that cultural lens of
(07:38):
how different that looks andfeels within families I think is
really important to kind ofdiscuss or like to, to analyze a
little bit together.
It came for you I'm wonderinglike, does it does, like, how
does food come up in yoursessions? Does it come up at
all? Or like, it's like, itcomes up personally, but not
(08:01):
like sessions?
No, actually, it comes up a lot.
And it can show up for differentreasons. So Well, we actually
just recorded another episodewith one of my colleagues who
specializes in OCD as well. Butshe also specializes in eating
disorders. And we were sayinghow common in how much of an
overlap there is with eatingdisorders and OCD. So it could
(08:21):
show up in that sense, it canshow up if you were thinking
about like body image it canshow up with like body
dysmorphia. We will see thatfairly often. It can show up
with perfectionism. It shows upjust culturally and just you
know how I mean, we just becausewe're working on OCD doesn't
(08:44):
mean we don't talk about thosekinds of things. Right? It shows
up in terms of actually, reallyinterestingly, I have some
people I mean, there's a lot ofpeople who have emetophobia. So
like fear of throwing up, andthey'll avoid certain foods
because they don't, you don'twant it to trigger them having
to get sick or throwing up. Alot of people with OCD have a
(09:06):
lot of rituals around foodactually hand washing before
eating, like contamination,those kinds of things. Sometimes
we're doing exposures aroundsensory related difficulties
with food.
Sometimes it's a behavioralactivation homework and people
(09:28):
will bake me things and bringthem in. So actually, I feel
like I talked about food all thetime.
Giving a homework to everyone tomake me different kinds of
cookies.
Like you don't have to, but ifit's something you love to do
and want to bring them in. I'lleat that.
(09:51):
You just start going you startgoing through like a cookbook.
You're like let's go chapter.
Yeah, we're learning how to cookand so this would be A good
thing to learn and to then bringit.
Katie, how do you see that comeoff for different cultural
backgrounds for people who mayhave OCD and like struggle with
like food? Or how they eat foodand having like their families
(10:12):
input on it? Because you know,every cultural culture is
different a little bit aroundfood and how important it is,
are there certain things to eat?
Or like the way you eat beingfull things like that?
Well, I don't, I don't thinkthat that I've actually seen a
lot of diversity, at least whereI'm at right now as it relates
(10:33):
to cultural differences in foodand the way people eat, I would
say the most common thing thatcomes up is parents having diets
and you know, kids and teenagersfeeling like they need to, you
know, a lot of thatperfectionism or eating
disorders has a feeling likethey need to do eat certain
(10:54):
things or not eat certainthings. Sometimes parents are
putting that pressure on theirkids. Other times, the parents
are not putting pressure ontheir kids, and they could see
their parents just doing thesethings. So I think that's been
see, I see that kind of acrossthe board. Sometimes with
athletes too, that's anotherkind of thing too. I mean, they
(11:16):
obviously have their own kind ofthings and, and, you know, using
exercises, like a compensatorybehavior, so that's something
that shows up sometimes. So,yeah.
And I hate the, you know, I'mnot an I'm not an athlete,
surprise, surprise, or not. But,but I, you know, I like Taylor
(11:40):
Swift, I like Phil, you know,that kind of thing. But, you
know, I come from a family ofathletes, my brother, coaches,
professional lacrosse, as youcan see from my shirt. But
there's something that is alwayssaid of like, you know, it takes
determination, it takes this, ittakes that and almost like, you
having a really weirdrelationship with food is like,
(12:02):
praised, in some ways,especially for like, male
athletes, because I think thatfor men, there's this idea of
like, Oh, I'm cutting weight,and I'm like, You're seven, what
do you mean? Because they don'twant to go up a class or
something like that, you know,a, they decide to switch their
diet so that they are not eatingcertain foods, and I'm just
(12:22):
like, your body is growing in,you're getting rid of this food,
or this type of, you know, like,you know, car, you're getting
rid of all the carbs, I'm like,well, your body does need some
semblance of a carb, especiallywhen you're growing. But I think
that especially for, you know,men, this idea of like,
indulging, and it's like, oh, hejust eats everything. Oh, he
(12:43):
does that he does that. And Ithink that sometimes it's just
like, normalized, but you're notrealizing well, what if he has a
binge disorder, you know, like,what is what is, is that being
assessed for, but oftentimes,it's almost like, Oh, these
things are strictly female,which then puts a different type
of pressure. You know, I'mfemales, and it's just a
(13:03):
horrible dynamic. It's ahorrible system. But oftentimes,
this weird relationship withfood is praise. And I'm just
like, I don't love this. And Isee it as they grow up. And I
see it as like, my clients aretalking about their childhood.
And I'm just like, we reallyneed to stop doing this to our
kids.
(13:24):
I'm so glad you brought that up.
I was actually thinking aboutthat earlier that I feel like
it's so much more common forsociety and families to put more
focus, especially negative focuson females around food and
eating versus males, right, likeyou don't really think about if
men are binge eating, right,it's like, oh, they're growing.
He's a growing boy, he's justputting on weight or like, he's,
(13:44):
you know, eating clean, so hecan lose weight, and then he's
bulking up like this constantyo, yo, and it's seen as like,
they're just working on theirbody, and it's normal. But I
don't often hear or see clients,at least for me, having male
clients come in talking abouttheir relationship with food or
having it be something that islike, like, a conflict or an
(14:06):
issue with them. Everyone kindof sees it as like, oh, that's
just a normal thing for men todo. I'm glad you brought that
up.
Well, and then there's like thedouble standard too, because
like, for men, it's like, oh,like you said that Oh, you're
growing boy, you need this. Likeall of that is kind of like
heaped on and that in somecultures that I've worked with
(14:27):
the idea of like food is love,which I think is really great
like a food as a way of likeshowing love your appreciation
for the person. But then it'salmost like they're given a if
they're given something and thenthey're slapped in the face for
taking it. It's like, oh, youneed to eat you need to eat. Oh,
but don't eat too much. Oh, yoube in too much. Now you're now
you're fat. Now you're this andit's oftentimes that double
(14:48):
standard for for women in thefamily. You know, their culture
says you need to eat. This ishow we show our love. But don't
overindulge and don't become fatbecause that is the worst thing
that canhappen. I feel like that's
pretty prevalent. across a lotof cultures, because I'm
thinking about like, EasternEuropean like that is constantly
right, like showing love throughfood cooking, and showing that
you love them back is eatingeverything off of your plate,
(15:10):
and making sure you tell themhow much you loved it and
enjoyed it. And if you don't eatit at all, it's rude. Like you
didn't like my food, but then atthe same time, they judge you
for your appearance. And makeall these comments like in our
culture, it's like, oh, shelooks healthy. If someone says
you look healthy means you puton weight. That's they're a nice
way of saying you put on weightand like, you shouldn't be
(15:31):
eating that much. But also eateverything off your plate to not
be rude, but don't get fat. Likehe hears these double standards.
Yeah,yeah. It's how I'm part Italian.
That part of my culture, myupbringing is very much men that
have same kind of messages beingreinforced. And I think it's I
mean, obviously, as generationsare, you know, going down the
(15:52):
line things change. But yeah, Iwould say that's like, really,
it's it was really commonamongst like grandparents saying
things like that even some olderaunts and uncles like, Yeah,
haveyou? I'm wondering how you both
respond. When you hear somebodysay like, you know, Hi, my name
is so and so. And I'm a fat siswoman. There's the it's I think
(16:13):
it's great that folks are like,reclaiming that title of like
being fat and like, this is mybody. This is what it looks
like. But there is this internallike, like this gap. When
somebody says I'm, I'm fat itbecause the immediate response
is like, No, you're not, you'rethis, you're that you know, and
so it just is, you know, Katie,you're talking about, like how
(16:34):
things shift. And now this ideaof like reclaiming this word as
fat, that's not derogatory. It'sjust a way of describing your
body. It's like, I don't knowhow you both respond if you're,
if you've ever experienced that,but
I've never experienced anyoneactually present saying that
about themselves ever. I'veheard about it in like trainings
and things and how we, you know,the continuing education for us
(16:57):
to be aware of that, so I'maware of it, but I've never had
anybody come in and be like, um,you know, or like, I identify as
a fat woman, like nobody does,or at least nobody that I have
seen, not that nobody ever does,but nobody that I have worked
with.
Yeah, similar. I haven't hadanyone, if anything, it's the
opposite. Like, oh, I'm fat. AndI say it in a much like, in a
(17:17):
very negative way. Or this, howI it's like very much surrounded
by a negative, right, like howpeople are treating them, how
they feel about themselves, whenthey think they deserve their
worth all of it around like thisone observation of their body
type. But I haven't had anyonelike Katie said, come in to say
it in a positive way, or justlike a matter of fact, way.
(17:38):
And it reminded me of, you know,when I follow because I think it
was also a therapist. It waslike, I I'm a fat queer
therapist, and I'm like, Oh,this is a lot. This is like,
I'm, I'm like, I feel like Ihave to be like, No, that's
okay. You know, but it remindedme of somebody. They were
talking, and they said, Oh,yeah, I'm fat. And the person
(18:00):
goes, No, you're beautiful. Andthey just go, Well, I said, I
was fine. I didn't say that. Iwasn't beautiful. You know. And
I was like, that's important.
Because I think a lot of timesthat you hear somebody say I'm
fat, the connotation is like,oh, this person doesn't think
that they're beautiful. Theydon't think that they're
attractive. So now that peopleare reclaiming this word of fat,
it's like, there is this, thisknee jerk reaction of, oh, I
have to praise this person,because I feel some type of way
(18:22):
when, when in reality, it'slike, do they do they feel that
way? Yeah, just the assumptionor the stigma, the fat phobia.
It's so deeply ingrained in ourquote, like, so deep, I'm trying
to break it myself. Because Ihave a daughter. And it's just
so hard, right? Like, logically,cognitively, I can understand
this doesn't mean anythingnegative, but it's still
(18:43):
emotionally like those thoughts,those beliefs and narratives
keep popping up to think aboutthat, like if someone thought I
was or I look this way, right?
It's, it's interesting to thinkabout how deeply it's weighed
into our, like, the fabric ofour society that's like, even
when if a child like I rememberseeing like little kids, like,
You're fat, and then the momwill go, oh, how dare you say
that that's so rude. Whenthey're, they're a kid, they're
(19:04):
just making an observation aboutsomebody.
The common thing for kids too,is like, Oh, you have a big
belly. And immediately, theparents are like, Oh, my God,
and it's like, you know, I dohave a big belly, or they do
have a big belly. There arecertain things that a child can
point out, like, Oh, you have anice smile, but like, when it's
(19:26):
like factual things, it's thenseen as derogatory or rude. And
I'm just like, oh, the kidsdon't know. Or like, is this
teaching them something? Iunderstand, not commenting on
other people's bodies. But isthere a way that we can redirect
the behavior without making thisconnotation of a big belly is
bad?
(19:48):
Yeah, it's a very mindfulapproach, actually. Because if
we're thinking of the definitionof mindfulness, right, like
paying attention to the presentmoment, on purpose without
judgment, and like, we can justkind of accept a As a way of
defining something for what itis without having like that
judgment towards it, it takeseverything away from it. It's
the same with any of this othertreatment, right? Like, a lot of
(20:10):
times people with OCD arejudging their thoughts all the
time. And that's when they makethese assumptions about, oh, I'm
a bad person, because I havethese thoughts. Right? Well,
really, it's just a thought yourthought, Okay. Same with, okay,
my body has fat. Okay. Andwhat's wrong with that? Right?
Yeah,I think this generation Gen Z is
(20:31):
definitely going to, I thinkbreak a lot of that, which I
think is great, too, is a lotmore body acceptance, and just
not feeling so shameful ornegative about themselves
constantly,like social media, like on one
hand, yes, they are better withsome of that, but they also are
so impacted by social media andlike comparing themselves to
(20:55):
other people. Like I have morepeople that are younger, come in
and say things will be like, Oh,she's a, you know, a body
positive, or like acceptingqueen or something like that.
But, but then when they're alsotalking about themselves, it's
like, okay, but like, that girlon Instagram looks better than
me kind of thing. So it's tough.
(21:18):
It's a work in progress.
It takes time. One thing I dolove is that I feel like you see
the trickle of this, like,attempt to be body positive, or
like, you know, not, you know,go into these like, negative,
like, really like diet filledkind of thoughts. You see, it
trickled through the othergenerations. So it's almost like
millennial folks are like, Yeah,I feel confident in myself,
(21:40):
right? Gen Z, and they're like,Yeah, you should, and
millennials are like, Yeah, Iam, they're a little bit more
confident. And as opposed tobeing told, You're ruining the
world. And your avocado toast iswhy you can't afford a house.
You know, like, Gen Z is like,no, here are great. And
Millennials are like, great, youknow, like whisper.
(22:05):
In Katy, you mentioned socialmedia. I think one of the other
things, you know, obviously,tick tock, you know, depending
upon when this episode airs,rip, tick, tock, I'm just
kidding. But, um, you know,there's a couple on there. I
think her name is Alicia. Andthen her husband's name is
Scott. And Alicia has a biggerbody. And then Scott is more
(22:28):
physically fit. And the commentsthat she has to go through, you
know, we've talked about, youknow, family, and we've talked
about, you know, parent child,but then I'm also thinking about
the dynamic of being in arelationship and having to
navigate differences about thetype, you know, because
everybody thinks, oh, Scottcould do better Scott could do
this guy could do that. Whenhe's actually saying, like, No,
(22:51):
this is my wife, I love thisperson. I don't, you know, like,
her body is her body, Icelebrate her body, I worship
her body, like, by all of thecomments, even if it's like, oh,
we're going on a date, there'sgonna be like, Why are you with
her? Oh, my God, he's so muchbetter. And I'm just like, yeah,
social media is a place thateven if you're trying to be
(23:13):
positive about yourself, youknow, there's somebody waiting
in the wings to just, you know,tear you down with these like
attacks for no reason, like,what are they going to get out
of it,I've actually think I've seen
those same couple, where themale was like, really bill and
fit, and then his partner is ina bigger body. And I've seen
those comments. And it's just sointeresting to think about, even
like the cultural perspective oflike, a heterosexual
(23:33):
relationship, like, whichpartner is more attractive, or
they can do better just based ontheir physical appearance, like,
we don't know anything elseabout this person's personality,
how they treat them, how theymake them feel what they have to
offer in a relationship, right?
Like, we're just basing it offof this person looks fit, this
one doesn't. This one should getwith someone more attractive, or
(23:55):
on their level or something, orthat a male who is attractive
would date a woman who's not asattractive versus the other way
around, which I think is likeseen as more common in our
society. So it's an interestingthing to point out,
right? And if it's the womandating a male who's less
attractive, it's because he hasmoney. Like that's another one
(24:17):
of these like things, it's like,well, it's okay, because, you
know, she's doing it for themoney,
or he has a really good job, orthere's something else going on
or redeeming quality here.
Yeah, there's always this senseof like, if you are a big well,
and also I think that if you'rea larger man, it's almost like,
that's okay. You know, ifyou're, if you are, you know,
(24:40):
like bigger, you're bulkier, upto a point, it's okay. But when
you start looking like flabby oryou know, that, you know, oh,
you're eating too much likethat's when it shifts from, oh,
you're in this like standardrelationship to, oh, why is she
with this person when they don'ttake care of themselves? That is
the biggest comment Oh, ifyou're bigger, you don't take
(25:01):
care of yourself. And I'm justlike, you don't know, you are
just making a snap judgmentbased off of a body type that's
bigger than yours. Or it's basedoff of internalized messages
that you've heard and thatyou're projecting those, I see
it a lot in the sessions that Ihave where it's like, you know,
this, you know, I was alwaystold I wasn't good enough. And
it was based off with somebodyin their family or in their
(25:22):
close circle, who was actuallyprojecting some of those
internalized messagesthemselves. And it's really
unfortunate, because I'm justlike, your body type is not
necessarily going to be the sameas everybody in your circle. And
it's really unfortunate to haveso many projects that onto you,
when that was never how yourbody type was going to be.
That's tough to think about thefamily. Impact on like those
(25:44):
messages, too. I think it's, youknow, the world is pretty tough
as it is. But then when you'regrowing up in a family and
having like your parents orsiblings or family members
making negative comments aboutyour body, or pointing things
out that you might either didn'tknow what you should feel
insecure about, based on thesecomments, or now that you
already are constantly sayingthese things. I feel like it
(26:05):
makes it like there's no safeplace, right for you to just
like exist in your body and becomfortable. Because how can you
be mindful and present? Whenyou're constantly going through
these thought process of whatare they thinking about me? Do I
look bad? How am I looking?
Should I cover my stomach?
Alright, it's like a kind oflike the OCD, right? You have
all these thoughts going throughnonstop and how can you be
(26:27):
present or enjoy yourrelationships or whatever you're
doing in that moment when youconstantly have this like
chatter in your head and outsidein your family, too?
Yeah, and I also this is like, alittle off, but like I going
back to what you were sayingabout how it's like more
acceptable for men to be inbigger bodies. Like, I was
thinking about how women arealways like, I love it. Dad,
(26:50):
like y'all, that are very like,I love a mom. Like, that doesn't
happen.
That's so funny. You know, theysay MILFs but that's not what
they mean.
Yeah. Like even Hollywoodstandards, it's like, Oh, I love
(27:13):
you know, Pamela Anderson, or Ilove Taylor. I love Taylor
Swift. But you know, like, a lotof people will say, I love
Taylor Swift. You know, but thenthey'll be like, Oh, I love Adam
Sandler. Oh, Adam Sandler sohot. And I'm like,
yeah, like, everybody's like,Oh, yeah, but for women. It's
(27:35):
like Stacy's mom. Yeah,she's got it going on.
I'm like, Go Adam Sandler, youknow? Yeah, I'm like, Go Adam
Sandler, you are getting it.
You're living the dream. Butlike, there's even that double
standard, like, like you said,like, you know, they say no, but
it isn't because they like amom. It's like, no, it's this
person who's fit? And is cookingand have time between kids to go
get lingerie? And I'm like,that's, that's the standard?
(28:01):
I'm gonna tell you. That is not.
No one's got time for that.
Somebody who's listening islike, Excuse me, I do.
Good for you. For you let meknow who's your babysitter? And
are they affordable, because Ineed this in my life.
(28:23):
I'm speaking I'm Taylor Swift,because you know, I was going to
bring her up. Maybe I am lookinga little bit too much into the
era's tour, but hear me out.
Because, you know, as I said,there is that standard response,
if you're bigger, you don't takecare of yourself. And I
immediately think of Eris towarddancers, there are so many
different body types representedon her dance like team. And I'm
(28:46):
like, you cannot tell me thatany of those people, no matter
what their body type look like,doesn't take care of themselves.
They are running, they'rejumping, they are dancing their
heart out for hours. And, youknow, it just shows like, no,
your body is just going to lookthe way that it looks. It
(29:06):
doesn't mean that you'reunhealthy. If you're a bigger
body, these people are doingthings that I already get tired,
like watching them do andthey're just doing it in the
heat and everything. So I'm justlike, I don't think that this
adage of like, if you're bigger,you're not taking care of
yourself. I don't think that itstands on anything because yeah,
I'll say go watch Aris tour. Butyou should watch it anyway. But
(29:28):
really just I think I think itreally does take something Yeah,
or just go to the gym. I thinkthis every morning when I when I
go to the gym and I see otherpeople and I look at the
different kinds of bodies thatpeople have. And it's like, I
know this isn't like you know,your first week at the gym like
I see the same people and I'veseen them for months and
(29:49):
everybody has a different typeof body some much bigger, some
much smaller and I mean it bringit back to food like it that
plays a lot into it. doesn'tmean you're not taking care of
yourself or at least in terms ofexercise. In fact, perhaps
you're not taking care ofyourself. Not always. But you
(30:09):
know, sometimes people insmaller bodies are not taking
him themselves. Like there's areason that people with eating
disorders, you know, like, it'sone of the highest mortality
rates for mental health and youknow, so that's scary.
Have you had any experience withit's like a, an aversion to
(30:33):
eating certain types of food Iwant, I want to say it's FICA,
it's not FICA, that's a creditscore. Well, not the, like, I'm
so mad because I'm like seeingit in my head, but it's all
like, shadowy, and once again, Ifollow somebody on Tik Tok, who,
they have this thing where theycan't eat certain foods, like
they have an aversion to eatinglike foods, because I'm like,
(30:55):
texture, and there's a name forit, but I'm not going to be able
to remember right now. But inthe video, you go on a journey
with this person. And it's notbecause they're picky eaters.
It's not because they just arelike, Oh, I stick to what I
know. It's like, literally, it'sa mental battle for me to eat
this new substance. And it was,it's really cool to be able to
(31:17):
see this person, like, try thenew foods and like, you know,
love the flavors, or like, Ihate the consistency, but it was
nice to try that kind of thing.
But even that, sometimes it'slike, downgraded to Well, that's
not a just eating disorder,that's, you know, you're just
being picky. And it's like, no,you don't get to tell people
like what they're going throughdoesn't matter when it comes to
food, their relation to it,relationship to it, and the way
(31:38):
that they have to kind of liketalk themselves into eating
certain foods.
Yeah, for sure. I see that withautism spectrum disorder all the
time. Like, that's like a bigpresenting thing that I see
working with individuals on theautism spectrum. Yeah, we, we
see a lot of different foodsensitivities. And like I was
(32:00):
saying, like around sensoryrelated things. Oh, my gosh,
that reminds me, this is notrelated. It is related. But it's
not really it's related to me.
This weekend, I was gettingsushi and my brother got this
boba tea. And I never had itbefore. And I always envisioned
the the little like bubbles liketo pop in your mouth. And I
guess there are some that do.
(32:22):
But the ones that I tried do notpop in your mouth. And you
should see my face when I wastrying that because I was like,
so surprised because I thoughtit was going to like, and that
would be like this nice littlelike, satisfying moment of it
bursting and it didn't and itwas like, like mushy and slimy.
(32:44):
And like, for me with my sensorydesires. That was not it.
Keep my jokes to myself, Ican't eat. I can't. I can't do
it. I can't do bubble tea. Andit's for that same reason. My
body's like, Oh, we're drinkingsomething. And then when there's
something that comes up that issupposed to be like chewed or
(33:05):
something that shouldn't behappening, you know? Like, spit
in it or something like that.
And I'm like, some people swearby bubble tea. And I think
that's wonderful for them.
Right? For me, my body's justlike, we cannot do this. We
can'tdo I have that feeling about
rice pudding? I think it's verysimilar. Like rice pudding
really rubs me the wrong way toyoga. Ya know? It's interesting
(33:26):
that you brought up on it'scheese. I actually like cottage
cheese. I love cheese. But Ithink there's a lot of I don't
want to say disorders, but a lotof sensory processing conditions
where that comes up, right, likefeeling icky, or having this
(33:47):
like unsettling experiencearound food or different things.
Does that? I mean, I know I haveADHD that's like part of it. Do
you see that at all? Katie orAlan, like anybody with
different kinds of like mentalhealth disorders, having that
very similar experience with itthat may not be an eating
disorder, but like something interms of like sensory
(34:07):
processing? Yeah, absolutely.
We,I would categorize that under
like, Disgust got what was theterm the term is arfid.
Or, wait, I'm sorry, what isarfid? avoidant
restrictive food intakedisorder, that's the one where
(34:29):
it's what I was talking aboutthe that, like the aversion to
eating, like certain foods orlike restricting what type of
food you are eating, and thenyou know that it's not just
like, Oh, I'm picky. It's moreof like this cognitive, like, I
am fighting to, like, go out ofmy way to do this, you know, so
(34:49):
I'm glad you look that up.
Because when you said FICA, Ithought of pica, and I was like,
but that's not the same thing.
That's like when people areeating things that they
shouldn't be eating right likechalk or whatnot, which is is
also like a legitimate disorder.
So interesting. Is there a show?
I think there's a show on Idon't know if it's like Bravo or
like High Street. Yeah.
(35:09):
Something like that. And like Iremember watching one episode
with this lady, he just couldnot stop eating mothballs. So
interesting. It's fascinating tosee like, what our minds either
like are disgusted by and justpush away versus like what we
just cannot help but do becausesomehow it's satisfying in some
way, right? Like cognitivelysomething's going on. To make
(35:30):
that like make you want to dosomething that that you know, is
not good for you. I guess thatgoes for a lot of things in our
life.
Well, and then being able tolike bring it up to talk about
it, because there's so muchshame around it like, Oh, this
is very weird for me, even whenit is like, Oh, I might be
picky, or, you know, I do havedisordered eating, or this is
(35:50):
going on, like the the shame ofbringing that up. Because it's
this idea of like, oh, you know,you need to, you know, fit this
image of health, you need to dothis. But you know, we don't
care how you do it, just do it.
And so this idea of like, oh, Ihave disordered eating, or I am
restricting, or I'm binging.
There's a lot of shame in that.
And for my clients, just evenbeing able to, you know,
(36:12):
recognize that maybe theirrelationship with food isn't as
healthy. And even for myself, astherapists being able to say to
myself, like my relationshipwith food isn't always the
healthiest. And what does thatmean? And who do I have in my
support system to talk about itwith because just kind of
keeping it in yourself and keepin your head and keeping it to
yourself? It just keeps you inthat shame spiral? And it's
(36:34):
like, how am I going to get outof this, other than find that
community that's going tosupport me? And allow me to kind
of share with this is what'sgoing on with me? What does that
mean for my relationship withfood? Yeah, I feel like a lot of
people, either they'reconsidered picky eaters, or some
people might view them that way,or eating disorders, like people
around them make these commentslike, we'll just try it, like
(36:56):
just this pushy nature of like,just do it, it's not a big deal.
You're it's just willpower, oryou're just being silly, like,
just do the thing. Withouttaking time to think about like,
this isn't just like a quickdecision or something like that,
like this is ongoing, like anongoing struggle, internal
battle that they're having. So Ithink just like, also letting
(37:18):
people know, if someone seemslike a picky eater, like, don't
force them, right, if someone issober, and they're coming to a
party, and they don't drink,don't continue asking them to
drink something, right? Like yourespect people's decisions and
wishes to like, do what theyneed to do for themselves.
Yeah, and I think just this ideaof, you know, Jeff, do X. I
(37:42):
mean, you know, we've heard theadage of like, Oh, I'm
depressed. Well be happy. Whodid not think about that? Wow, I
bet. So it's like, oh, you'vebeen donate as much. Who would
have? Who would have thoughtthat? Are you thinking? This is
crazy? You know, I wish it werethat easy.
(38:05):
Yeah, sad people all the time.
Get just don't think about it.
Wow.
Great idea. We would all be outof jobs. If it was that easy.
This whole field?
I would love that. Yeah, hey,just communicate better? You
(38:26):
know, I'll communicate. Let meget that. Let me get that
message to my mind. And like,let me stop overthinking. Or let
me stop, you know, ruminating onthis fact, you know, so, I would
love being out of a job. Butthat's not what people need.
People. People need therapy. Andyou know, I would love for that
(38:47):
to be true. But, you know, someof these things that we are just
just do this. It's deeper thanthat. And I'm hoping that for
anybody who's listening who, whohas been told, Oh, Jeff, do this
thing. Unfortunately, as youknow, it's not going to be that
easy. So, definitely reachingout to folks who are here to
support and help this probably,and hopefully your next step,
(39:10):
after hearing some of the thingswe're talking about. I
mean, these things are habitsand patterns that are ingrained,
right, like just automaticallylike a default that goes
through. You know, like, justwhen you start your day, like
you wake up, you might go to thebathroom, brush your teeth, like
it's just on autopilot. Some ofthis like this is ingrained of
things that you just do. Trystarting a new habit. It is not
easy, right? Even if it'ssomething you want to do, it's
(39:31):
good for you. There's all thesereasons you've been set up
everything around you, you'restill gonna like fall off
because it takes a long time tolike develop something
different, right? Like, it's awhole paradigm shift. It's not
just I do this thing one time,and now it sticks forever. Like
it's just not how our brainswork. I think it's people have a
hard time recognizing that inother people and not themselves,
(39:55):
right? Because how many timeshave we all tried to do
something and it doesn't stickbut we think someone else can do
Just fix something or dosomething different, there'll be
fine. So there's actually this.
This is like unrelated but kindof related in. So when I was
learning about like psychedelicsand things, how it impacts our
brain, there's actually thisthing called the default mode
network in our brain that haslike these neurological pathways
(40:16):
that like build grooves forbeliefs and narratives that we
have constantly. And so therewas like this good example in
this book called change yourmind or change my mind is that
when you know you're born, youhave all of these messages
coming at you, if you think oflike a field of snow, if you
walk down a certain path, whereyour footsteps are, you continue
(40:38):
to go down that same path,right? Because the footsteps are
already there. So it's kind oflike the beliefs we have about
ourselves and these narrativesis just constantly the same
thing. Like I'm a bad person, orI'm fat, or bla bla bla, right.
And then when you do apsychedelic, it shakes it up
like a snowglobe and puts inlays flat snow again, and you
can have a new belief or a newnarrative about yourself, that
(40:59):
wasn't there before. And itcreates this whole new path for
you to think about yourself insuch a different way. And it
actually sticks, because it's onsuch a deeper neurological level
than just on like a consciouslevel. So that was super
fascinating. Yeah, wow. That'ssimply saying. That's my small
TED Talk.
(41:26):
That almost sounds like whathappens when I like engage folks
in narrative therapy, this senseof like, attempting to rewrite
this narrative and attemptingto, you know, like, focus on
this old, unfortunate or nothelpful narrative as the issue
and working to, you know, blockit from continuing and forging
(41:48):
this new way of thinking.
Obviously, it seems like alittle bit more internal and
medical, but, and probably alittle bit more short term than
long term Narrative Therapy. Butit does sound like that very
similar thing of like, justlaying this new narrative and
laying this new thought pattern,and kind of deleting that old
(42:09):
way of thinking.
Yeah, very similarly, I wasthinking about treating PTSD and
doing like cognitive processingtherapy, especially if you're
doing the version where you'rewriting the account out. Either
way, you're still trying to kindof reframe a lot of those
beliefs. And it makes sensebecause there's so much research
coming out now about likepsychedelics and treating PTSD.
(42:33):
So we got some interesting stuffcoming up in the field around
thatI'm super excited for I think
it's gonna be the next wave isthe psychedelics are coming
through. I'm ready for it. I'vebeen fascinated in love with
this for a really long time. Ithink that maps, I think it's
the MultidisciplinaryAssociation of psychedelics just
passed their law in Oregon to beable to provide us Silis is it
(42:56):
no psychedelic assisted therapywith MDMA, for social anxiety
and for trauma, because they'veseen the, the trials that they
were doing on social anxiety isthat when people were taking
this, and going through it,their symptoms, even PTSD, I
think it was like 40 to 50% ofthe participants no longer
qualified for the diagnosis ofPTSD, after I think, three or
(43:20):
four, don't quote me, I forgethow many, but like a certain
amount of being able to takethis with a therapist, they're
in a safe environment andeverything, and then no longer
can, being able to identify orno longer having that diagnosis,
because their symptoms were goneover six months. Like this
(43:40):
wasn't like a week later, theytest that it was like over a six
month period, they were able tosee like they were no longer
having PTSD, which is wild tothink
about. I'm curious how that myhow, like, these types of
treatments don't apply to like,disordered eating and like those
types of processes? And hasthere been any, like, study on
(44:00):
that? I'm sure. I'm sure onceinsurances find out that this is
a shorter stay, then they'regonna make this great, you know,
so yeah, we'll see thethe policies and the regulations
around it. But I mean, thesethings have been around for
forever, right? Indigenouspeople have been using these
plant medicines, I could go intothis for like another five
hours. But this just made methink about all of this is how
(44:21):
much it shifts our narrativesand our beliefs. Like you were
saying, like narrative therapy,or cognitive processing is like
changing the beliefs, right?
It's not just doing the thing,it has to go in hand in hand
with like, the actual belief andthoughts we have with it.
Otherwise, it's pretty shortlived. So we're getting close to
the end. Is there anythingeither of you want to share any
(44:43):
closing thoughts for thelisteners? This was like, kind
of a rogue episode where we kindof just like, went with the
flow, which was really cool.
Yeah, I think that one of thebiggest takeaways is, you know,
if you're a clinician reallybeing willing to go into those
hard conversations about foodand the relationship of food,
and not just assuming that it'snot necessarily playing a role
(45:06):
in the things that you'retalking about in therapy.
Because I think it is somethingthat is often overlooked,
especially by clinicians andreally start challenging some of
your internal thoughts aboutfood. And then if you're a
listener who's struggling withtheir own internalized thoughts
about food, you know, reach outif you don't have a community
that's going to be supportive,reach out to a therapist, reach
(45:28):
out to myself, so that we mightbegin, you know, exploring,
like, what does a healthyrelationship with food look like
for you? And what are someinternalized, you know, thoughts
or patterns that you've noticedthat you need support in
breaking and changing? Well,Alan, thank you so much for
being a guest on today andreturning. This was awesome,
Katie. Thanks for guest cohosting. This is a great time.
(45:49):
Thanks so much for both being onand if you liked this episode,
please like, share andsubscribe. And we'll see you in
two weeks. Yes, thanks so much.
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