March 13, 2024 • 49 mins
Tune into an enlightening conversation with Dr. Jessica Robb Mazzant about ADHD's nuances in assessment and treatment. With extensive experience and a passion ignited by her early career, Dr. Mazzant brings a wealth of knowledge to this episode.
In This Episode:
• The journey to specializing in ADHD and the role of mentorship.
• The impact of Bill Pelham's work on today's mental health practices.
• A detailed look at ADHD assessment and treatment methodologies.
• The effects of ADHD on school performance, social interactions, and family life.
• Strategies for improving social skills in children with ADHD.
• The power of group therapy and positive reinforcement in ADHD treatment.
• Parenting advice for raising children with ADHD, emphasizing the importance of understanding and positive engagement.
Hosted by Kira Yakubov Ploshansky, this episode is an invaluable resource for parents, educators, and mental health professionals seeking to enhance their understanding and approach to ADHD.
Resources & Support: Visit the Center for Children and Families at FIU and South Florida Integrative Medicine for more information and assistance.
Subscribe to Heal Your Roots Wellness Podcast on BuzzSprout for insightful discussions on mental health and wellness. Share this episode to spread awareness and support for those navigating ADHD.
Disclaimer: The content is intended for informational and educational purposes only
Check out the rest of the Heal Your Roots Podcast episodes at our website.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (00:00):
Part of good treatment is doing ongoing
(00:03):
high quality assessment. So youare checking in with your client
the the entirety of the timethat you're working with them to
make sure that they are growingin the direction that they want
to grow. They're moving in thedirection that they want to
move.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:19):
Welcome back to Heal Your Roots Podcast.
On today's episode, we have Dr.
Jessica Robbins and join usclinical psychologist sharing
her unique approaches andphilosophy around helping
children and families dealingwith ADHD. If you're a parent or
you have a family member withADHD, you're definitely going to
want to tune into today'sepisode. I'm thrilled for
today's guest, Dr. Jessica RobMazon. Thank you so much for
(00:43):
being with us today, Jessica.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (00:46):
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having
me. Absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:50):
So before we kind of go into all
your specialties and everythingthat you do, can you share a
little bit about how you gotinto the field, what made you
want to become a clinicalpsychologist?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (01:02):
Sure. Um, so I was a psychology
undergraduate. And in betweentowards the end of my junior
year of undergrad, through myemail, I got this advertisement
for an internship. And theinternship was to work in a
program called the summertreatment program, which was a
(01:23):
really intensive behaviormodification and social skills
training program for kids withADHD. And when I say ADHD, I
mean Attention DeficitHyperactivity Disorder, I'll use
that acronym from now on. And Ithought, well, you know, this,
this seems pretty cool, likesomething I might be interested
(01:44):
in. So I applied, and I feelreally fortunate that I was able
to get that internship. And so Imoved up to the summer treatment
program location, which at thattime was in Buffalo, New York.
And I went through the training,and I started doing this
treatment program. And I felthard and fast and love. I just,
(02:08):
I, I enjoyed working with thosekids so much. I enjoyed the just
professionalism of all of thesupervisors that I worked with,
I took a special class with thedeveloper of the summer
treatment program, Bill Pelham,he offered a summer course on
ADHD. And I just rememberleaving that summer thinking
(02:31):
like, this could be my work,like, I get paid for doing this.
And so for the next 12 years, Iworked in that program, I ended
up applying to graduate schoolto a doctoral training program
in clinical psychology, and thedeveloper of the summer
(02:51):
treatment program, they'll tellthem was my was my graduate
mentor, and, and really my, mylife mentor, and it just that
experience had such a positivechange, and, you know, change
the trek trajectory of my careerand really pointed me in a
direction that I've been so sograteful to have kept moving in.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:16):
That's incredible. So if you didn't get
that email, who knows?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (03:21):
That would have more of an influence in my
life. I'm responsive to emails,but But it actually happened.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:29):
Wow, that's really awesome. I
actually love working. I don'twork with any kids. But I love
working with adults who haveADHD because full disclosure I
do as well. And just like,learning myself about it,
helping clients there's so muchinformation about and it's so
intriguing. So it's reallyawesome that you spent all that
time at this. It sounds like areally comprehensive program
(03:51):
that allowed you to learn somuch and help so many people.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (03:54):
Yeah, it is. It's such an incredible
program. And about six weeksago, the developer of the summer
treatment program, Bill Pelhampassed away. And so that's been
a just a huge loss, not onlypersonally, but really for for
our field. But one of the thingsthat it's so incredible is that,
(04:14):
you know, he influenced not onlyme, but so many people that are
very committed to keeping highquality research, high quality
treatment happening. Forfamilies that really need it.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (04:28):
I'm so sorry for your loss. So
Jessica Robb Mazzant (04:29):
thank you.
I appreciate your excitement.
Yeah, absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (04:33):
And so where are you currently working
now? Like, what is what is theprofessional career for you
right now?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (04:40):
So I am an associate teaching professor at
Florida InternationalUniversity. And I work
specifically in a program agraduate program called the
professional counselingpsychology program where the PCP
program for short, and thegentleman that I mentioned, Bill
Pelham, Not only did he startthe summer treatment program,
(05:03):
but he was also reallyinstrumental in helping to
launch the PCP program as itcurrently is. And one of the
things that's kind of unique anddistinct and important about
that program is that it has areal training emphasis on
evidence based practices. Sotechniques and practices that
have been shown through, youknow, good quality research that
(05:25):
they really provide and resultin a meaningful impact on on
clients and families.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:34):
So this guy has been all over.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (05:36):
It really, yeah. And so I'm
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:39):
leaving an impact on the right. Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (05:41):
And I've been working in the PCP program
at FIU since 2012.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:49):
Oh, wow. Okay. So over a decade,
over
Jessica Robb Mazzant (05:52):
a decade, yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:55):
That's awesome. So you're working with
students. And then I know, youmentioned you work at a private
practice as well.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (06:03):
So the private practice that I work at,
I work in a in a part timecapacity there, but it's called
South Florida integrativemedicine, and it's in Coral
Gables, Florida. So in the southFlorida area, and I think what I
love about fim, I apparentlyreally like acronyms. A lot is,
(06:24):
you know, it's aninterdisciplinary practice. So
there is a kya tree, there arepsychiatric nurse practitioners,
psychologists, mental healthcounselors. And in really having
such a broad range ofprofessionals there allows us to
do really comprehensive andpersonalized treatment for the
folks that we work with. So I dosee some clients through SFM.
(06:48):
But I also do quite a lot ofclinical supervision. So what
clinical supervision is, iswhere you are a sounding board,
and you help to give advice todeveloping mental health
clinicians, so clinicians whodon't yet have their independent
license to practice, I get thefortune of meeting with them
routinely to, to make sure thatthey're feeling supported and
(07:10):
secure in the work that they'redoing. And I really love that.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (07:14):
molding, the young therapists, next
generation. Supervisors are socrucial. I mean, I loved all my
supervisors, it's such animportant part of the growth in
the learning process of becominga therapist or any kind of
mental health clinician.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (07:29):
I agree.
Yeah, they can have such atremendous impact on us.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (07:33):
So you have a lot of different Yeah,
parently a lot of Yeah, but allvery important ones.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (07:41):
Yeah, I really, I'm, I'm incredibly
fortunate that I get to beinvolved in so many cool things.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (07:50):
And so I know, you mentioned that you
fell in love with working withchildren, teens with ADHD? Can
you share a little bit aboutyour approach of assessment,
like kind of like from thebeginning, when you meet with a
client and their family, andtaking them through that
process?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (08:06):
Sure. So, you know, I think one thing
about assessment that is reallyimportant to remember and to
consider is that it shouldn't bedistinct from treatment. And
what I mean by that is, ofcourse, there's a period of time
where you're getting to know aclient, whether that's a kid,
(08:27):
adolescent, adult, a family,however you define client, you
have to get to know them, get toget to understand them
understand what it is that theywant to, they want to work on.
But part of good treatment isdoing ongoing, high quality
assessment. So you are checkingin with your clients through the
(08:48):
the entirety of the time thatyou're working with them to make
sure that they are growing inthe direction that they want to
grow. They're moving in thedirection that they want to
move. So I want to throw thatcaveat out there. But really, I
think what you meant was like atthe beginning, what are some
things that are important? Howdo you connect, connect with a
(09:09):
kid or connect with anadolescent and their family? So
kind of staying in the world ofADHD, one thing that is
important to do is to to reallydetermine not just what symptoms
are present for this particularkid. But how do those symptoms
(09:29):
impact their life? One of thethings that I think is
absolutely essential is that thefocus of our interventions are
really tied to the problems thatthis client is having in their
daily life functioning. And thatwe are really focused on trying
to develop what we call adaptiveskills. So strategies or
(09:53):
techniques that the person cando to better adapt to the
demands of their life in a waythat are that's going to Help
them make meaningful connectionswith other people be successful
in their environments. Thatreally, that shouldn't be the
focus of treatment. And so italso needs to be the focus of
assessment, we have to reallymake sure that we are explicitly
(10:13):
asking families and kids andadolescents, where they want to
grow, what areas do theyidentify as being their biggest
struggles? And how can we designinterventions to help them adapt
to the struggles that they'rehaving. And that really is the
central focus of both assessmentand treatment, not just trying
to eliminate symptoms.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (10:35):
Gotcha.
Now, that's really important.
And I think that's great tothink about, because everyone is
so different, right? They mightall have very similar symptoms,
but it may not be an issue forone child, because of whatever
reason, maybe their family orthe way they are in school, or
that's just a different kind ofstrength for them, versus
someone else who might be havingthe same symptom, but as
(10:55):
struggling because of thestructure of their environment.
I've
Jessica Robb Mazzant (10:59):
really, yeah, I so value, what you just
said, You're right, you can havetwo people with the same symptom
list. But they're going tostruggle in different areas, or
in different ways, they're goingto have different sets of
strengths. And so you reallyhave to approach each person,
it's just that as an individual,that you need to make sure that
(11:19):
you are understanding to helpdrive drive the treatment
choices that you make.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (11:26):
And I'm also wondering, maybe the
priorities of like the family orthe school system, right? Where
even if they are struggling ornot, which one is more of a
priority work on versus theother as well?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (11:39):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think really
working with the family unit, inparticular is something that I
enjoy, but it's for that reason,you can't treat everything all
at once. And so you have to makea determination about, you know,
what skill can they learn, thatwould have the biggest impact on
their life, or what area oftheir life is causing them the
(12:00):
most distress or the mostimpairment and making those
choices collaboratively aboutthis is where we're going to
start based upon what thatclient and their family is
relaying.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (12:11):
And so well, what do you find are the
most common, whether it's likethe issues or areas, they're
struggling, and then that thefamily is coming in to treat
like the things that arestanding out, like, hey, my kid
is struggling with this, this orthat? This is why we're coming
to you for assessment ortreatment and help.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (12:29):
Yeah, that's a great question. Because
it's very infrequent thatfamilies actually come in and
say, you know, I think my kidhas this symptom and this
system, symptom they might meet,you know, the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual definition ofthis disorder like that, that
never happens. What families arecoming in saying is that my kid
(12:51):
is struggling, and multipleareas, and I'm worried about
their future. So if I had toboil it down to three kind of
main areas where I see moststruggle, oftentimes, kids are
struggling in school, not thatthey are necessarily failing,
or, or are unable to learn. Infact, many folks with ADHD have
(13:13):
have really developed skill setsand are really, really bright.
But they may lack organizationalskills or understanding how to
prioritize, for example. Sooftentimes, we see kids that are
academically underperformingcompared to where they're likely
(13:34):
capable of performing, or theirgrades are suffering because of
things like they can't structuretheir time to finish a long term
project, or what can sometimesbe the most frustrating for
older kids, they did thehomework, but between doing the
homework and arriving at thatnew location school, it's gotten
(13:56):
misplaced along the way. Andyou'd be surprised how often I
hear that even withelectronically submitted. Still,
there is some barrier there. Sothat's absolutely a domain, I'm
going to ask about necess andsee how how that kid is doing.
This second area is going to bepeer functioning. And many kids
(14:17):
with ADHD struggle in theirtheir peer social groups. And
what we know is that having justone reciprocal friendship, so
when I say a reciprocalfriendship, what I mean by that
is the kid says, hey, you know,John is my friend and John says,
(14:37):
Yep, I'm this kid's friend, theyboth say, Hey, this is a real
meaningful connection betweenthe two of us. Having just one
or a couple of those has thisprofoundly protective impact on
kids. But oftentimes, kids withADHD struggle to kind of get
past that initial friendshipstage and to that reciprocal or
(15:00):
friendship. And there's a lot ofreasons why they might struggle.
Sometimes kids with ADHD havedifficulties with impulse
control. But a lot of times kidswith ADHD can learn from their
environment and can develop sometroublesome reactions or
troublesome patterns and howthey interact with people. And
(15:21):
so they are more at risk forbeing socially rejected from
their peers, because of thingslike high rates of interruption
or not being able to followconversations or things of that
nature. And so really, again,working on that, like skill
development, to empower them tobe able to learn some long
(15:42):
lasting friendship skills, has abig impact on them. And then,
yeah, last but not least, atall, the third area is really
family functioning. So withinfamilies, it's very common for
parents to report that they feellike they're not the best
versions of themselves, orthey're not the parents that
(16:04):
they want to be. They'restruggling in a lot of ways with
their kids. And so the dynamicswithin the household have an old
it in a way that doesn't reallyfeel good to anybody. And
parents report that they,they're using harsher kind of
interactions with their kidsthan they they want to be doing.
And they feel like they have todo that, because that's the only
(16:24):
thing that seems to work or tomotivate their kiddos. And we
know that we're living in anenvironment for a long period of
time that's marked by these highlevels of coercion or hostility
isn't great for kids, it's notgood for their development. And
so really working on changingfamily dynamic patterns, is
(16:44):
something that we check in onand definitely focus on in
treatment, if needed.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:50):
So these are three huge areas. And
as you're speaking, I'm like, ohmy god, it's like the story of
my life. But it's so true. Makessense. When you think about if
you're struggling, and all thesethree areas, and you're a child
or a teenager, like this is yourwhole life, right? You're in
school, or you're at home, oryou're with friends. And if
(17:10):
you're not with friends, oryou're feeling rejected, right,
I'm sure that lowers your selfesteem can cause social anxiety,
you might have more lower selfesteem, because you're not doing
well at school or you'reconstantly getting reprimanded
than at home, your parents feellike that negative reinforcement
is the only way to get you to dosomething. Yep. Like, everywhere
(17:31):
you go, you're getting some kindof like negative reaction or
response to you. It's reallytough, it's
Jessica Robb Mazzant (17:37):
really tough. And you nailed it when
you said it can affect aperson's self esteem. It can
also affect their sense of selfefficacy, or their belief in
themselves that they are capableof doing things because they've
had so many messages sent tothem that they are screwing up
in some way. And that's a toughmessage to receive from so many
(18:01):
different areas of your life,for so many for so long. That's
a tough thing not tointernalize. It's also really
common for kids with ADHD tohave something that we call
rejection sensitivity, so theycan become really attuned to
perceiving or expectingrejection. And so for a subgroup
(18:25):
of kids with ADHD, they canreact in really big ways, when
they perceive that they're goingto be rejected, or that they are
rejected. And sometimes theypreempt it. And so rejection or
kind of pushing back against aperson wasn't intended by by
someone, but it's perceived thatway by that kiddo. And then they
(18:46):
have this big response. So italmost becomes like a self
fulfilling prophecy.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (18:51):
Yeah, it's you're trying to control
it. So like, I know, I'm gonnaget rejected in her. I'm just
gonna get ahead of it. That'scoming. Yep. And then it just
creates more of and then andthen it kind of confirms the
thought like, of course, I wasgonna get rejected. See, this is
what happens. Yeah, yeah. And sowhen you're meeting with kids,
(19:12):
is it? Do they share like theseconcerns? Or is this more from
your family with the familysaying, like, hey, they're
struggling in all these areas?
And then the kids are sharingthis with you, too? Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (19:21):
Well, you're, you're asking a question
that I don't know if you're evenrealizing you're asking for it
anyway. So the younger that thekid is, what we know is that
really kind of intensive socialskills training and intensive
behavior therapy is thetreatment approach that works
(19:43):
best for those kids. Now, when Isay behavior therapy, I do want
to clarify something I'm nottrying to like force or pressure
kids into like, a mode ofresponding or a way, you know, a
really restricted way ofresponding or being but really
until Teaching them through theway that I react to them skills
that they can use in othersettings that's going to help
(20:05):
them to adapt better. So let megive you an example of what I
mean. Let's say I'm, I'm runninga social skills group with kids,
I might have that group of kidsplay a sports game. And the
reason that I would make themplay that sports game is because
sports actually require the useof a lot of different social
(20:29):
skills, you have to be able tocommunicate effectively, you
have to be able to cooperate. Sowork with your your fellow
teammates, you have toparticipate in the game in a way
that is meaningful. And yeah,you use a lot of validation
skills, you're like checking inwith your teammates, you know,
great play there like thatyou're looking ahead. And so
(20:50):
we'll play a game like that. Butone of the things as the
therapist that I'm doing is I'mlooking for all of those things
I just mentioned, to occur. Andwhen they occur, I really
reinforced that in those kids,I'm like, Hey, that was a great
way of communicating with yourwith your teammate, did you say
that skill? I'm gonna make up aname right now, did you see that
(21:13):
skill that Andy did, this is whythat was a good move. So I'm
really trying to strengthen thelikelihood that kids will
continue to use those types ofskills when they naturally
occur. But I'm also providingsome boundaries for the kids
that are going to help them tobe more successful when they're
not looking. So if a kid strikesout, during our baseball game,
(21:37):
for example, and he throws hisbat in anger, maybe that's a
really impulsive reaction thathe has that comes from
frustration. I'm going to talkwith him about how that's not
the appropriate reaction. That'snot an example of good
sportsmanship, and what can hedo differently? And why would
that different behavior, landhim in a better in a better
(21:58):
spot? So if when I say, the mod,or behavior modification, I'm
really talking about a lot oflike, intensive point of
performance feedback. So thesekids interesting.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (22:10):
So I'm hearing a lot of positive
reinforcement or like, point outall the things that you like
that they're doing that you wantthem to do more of? So they're
aware of that. Yep. And notnecessarily negative
reinforcement, but bringing totheir attention that, hey, this
is not appropriate. What couldwe
Jessica Robb Mazzant (22:27):
do? Yeah, there's a consequence, when
misbehavior or really negativebehavior does occur, but the
consequences presented to themin a neutral way, in a factual
way, it's not intended to shamethem, or to make them feel
badly, but to be like, Hey, notokay. Or hey, not cool. So we do
(22:47):
that a lot of different ways.
Sometimes that type of feedback,sometimes it's through something
like a point loss if a kid is ona point system. But the
consequence, that type offeedback is intended to be
instructive. And really, whenyou set up a dynamic where
there's way more opportunity andappeal towards those positive
pro social behaviors, kids startto drift in that direction, they
(23:08):
just need the opportunity have achance to understand where that
attention is going to come from.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (23:16):
I'm thinking about if they're
getting all these negativemessages, and now you're getting
so many positive messages,someone is acknowledging all the
things you're doing well, itstarts to feel really good. And
now you're chasing that feelingthat makes you feel proud you
feel accomplished by it, someoneis telling you something good
about you. So yeah, they want tolean into that way more. Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (23:37):
When the only way for you to get
acknowledgement or intention inyour environment is through
misbehavior, or you get it somuch sometimes, without even
really being conscious of it,people just lean into it.
Because like, that's how that'show I understand that I interact
with the world. But when yougive kids an alternative than
they have that alternativepathway to start to walk down.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (23:59):
And so something I know, with ADHD is
difficulty with consistency.
Right? So even if they'releaning into this, they know
this. If they struggle with theconsistency piece, is that
something you're able to kind ofhelp them with or like navigate
that process? Or is that like anacceptance of like, this isn't
always going to show up thisway? Well,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (24:21):
that's a great question. And you're
right, that consistency can becan be really difficult. And one
of the things particularly whenwe're talking about kids, or
even when we're talking aboutadolescents, I might tweak this
answer a bit if we're talkingabout adults, but I don't think
that consistency should solelybe the child's responsibility. I
(24:43):
think we need to get them into agreat habit. I think we need to
teach them skills explicitlythat are going to help them in
their life. But I think thatconsistency piece falls upon the
adults in our lives. We need tobe working with the caregivers
and the life of the kids teachIn them how to respond
differently, how to create thosepositive connection
(25:05):
opportunities that we'recreating in therapy create those
in the home setting, we need towork with the teachers that the
kids are interacting with. Sothey have that same kind of
dynamic. So yeah, the kid needsto show up for themselves, they
need to show up with thoseskills that they're learning,
but other people in the lifethat the kid needs to show up
to.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (25:24):
So it sounds like you work with kids,
if in a setting of otherchildren, right, like this is
like in a group to see how theyinteract and help everybody is
that the most common way thatyou work with children, or is it
like one on one as well,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (25:37):
it's not the most common way that most
therapies work with kids, butparticularly for kids with ADHD,
we know that that approach landsa lot better, it works a lot
better. And it results in bettertreatment gains than working
with kids individually. That'snot to say that working with
(25:58):
kids individually is neverwarranted, like, of course. But
we do find that net socialmodeling, and giving them the
opportunity to practice becauseif you think about it, for most
kids, in the context of afamily, it's not just you, it's
(26:19):
a lot of people in a family. Ina classroom, it's not just you,
it's a lot of people in aclassroom, in a Girl Scout
troop, it's not just you know, alot of Girl Scout troop. So
giving them the opportunity topractice in a social setting.
It's not solely, that they needto learn social skills, though
(26:39):
many do. But that it's givingthem the opportunity to practice
in an environment that's moresimilar to what their life looks
like. So yeah, that's part ofthe reason why a lot of the work
we do with kids is group basedwork.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (26:55):
That's really interesting. I didn't,
you know, as you say, to totallymake sense, right? I mean, it's
a lot more experiential, if thisis what they're struggling with,
instead of just talking aboutthe thing, you go and do the
thing and like live, you cancorrect it or work with it. And
they can continue repeating itversus just talking about it one
on one and then going out intothe world and they forget, or in
(27:18):
the moment, they don't know howto use it, or the moment has
passed. Right. So that's, Ireally love that.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (27:24):
Thank you.
The other thing, and this is notour direct intention, but it can
happen often is that we havekids in the group that become
friends with each other, andthey understand each other at a
level that maybe other kidsdon't, because they're dealing
with such similar thing. And sowe've had many lifelong
friendships kind of born out ofthe summer treatment program, or
(27:46):
the social skills groups that werun. And then it's real
meaningful feedback that they'regetting from their real life,
friends, their real life peers,it's really beautiful.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (27:59):
There's a lot of things happening here.
They're learning all this stuff,they're actually making friends.
And all of this is helping themgain more confidence, practicing
all these skills that they cantake back into school at home or
other places. So it's, it'ssustaining these life skills,
it's not just learning it,trying it a little bit doesn't
work. Let me try a differentsetting and may not work. But it
(28:22):
is like continuing. Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (28:25):
And you know, we're talking a lot about
these kind of social skillsgroups, or these behavior
modification groups. One of theother aspects of treatment that
I really love is doing what'scalled behavioral parent
training groups. So where youbring the parents of the kids
together to same thing, learnskills to better support their
kids in their home environments.
And behavioral parent trainingcan be done individually, or it
(28:48):
can be done in a group.
Personally, I love doing it in agroup because they'll see Elden
communities, right there aremany parents of kids with ADHD
or their mental health issuescan feel really isolated.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (29:04):
I feel like it might almost be harder
to work with the parents and thekids themselves.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (29:11):
I think any teacher would say the same
anybody who works with kids inany capacity can say, Georgia
Gray, that's probably.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (29:20):
And so how do you how do you work with
the parents? What are somethings that you kind of teach
them to do, because they're theones that have to reinforce this
and keep the environment going,like you said, they have to be
consistent with this practice in
Jessica Robb Mazzant (29:33):
those groups. It's kind of a
combination of things. One,there are some skills that we
teach parents, and a lot ofthese skills in isolation, feel
maybe kind of small, but youtake enough of these small
skills and you stack them up andsuddenly it accounts for a big
change and how their parentingor how they're interacting with
(29:56):
their children. So an example ofone type a skill that we might
work on with parents is like howto use your attention in a way
that's meaningful. So a lot ofparents, and I want to say this
in a way I want to qualify it, Iguess, is what I want to say. I
don't think that this happens,because anybody's trying to,
like, do poor parenting. But Ithink it just naturally unfolds.
(30:22):
And just like kids learn fromtheir, their environment,
parents learn from theirenvironment. But what can happen
is that sometimes parents can beon the lookout for misbehavior.
So when it happens, they'relike, Oh, see, there you go
again, or, you know, a version,a version of that type of
response. And then when kids,you know, are getting longer are
(30:45):
playing nicely. And I can saythis, because I'm a parent I
know, for myself, is you'relike, who you have a moment
where you're, like, Don't rockthe boat things? Well, right
now, there's, they're goingswimmingly. And, you know, here
and there, that's no biggie. Butif it's not just here, now,
(31:07):
that's kind of the mode ofresponding. What ends up
happening is that kids get adisproportionately large dose of
attention for all of theirmisbehaviors and all of their
mess ups. And comparatively, no,or very small amounts of
attention, or meetingexpectations for doing things
(31:31):
the right way. And humans aresocial creatures, we gravitate
towards what we get attentionfor. And so even though it might
sound really small, just bybringing that to the awareness
of parents, and saying, We wantyou to start to pay more
attention to the things yourkids are doing, well, we want
(31:51):
you to catch them being good.
You want your kids to listen toyou the very first time, every
time she listens to you, everytime he listens to you on the
first time, I want you toacknowledge that in a meaningful
way. What it does, as kids startto drift towards attention. And
so kind of slowly it starts toshift the way that they're
responding. And then forparents, many times they
(32:15):
respond, they report that likethat permission to like, let go
of some of this behavior andfocus on the good stuff there
kids doing feels really good.
That's something that they theywant. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (32:33):
And I'm sure that brings awareness to
them, of how much they areactually listening, right? Yeah.
Also, they're also filtering forsomething bad to happen. So
you're more likely to think thatthere's a higher number of that.
And this isn't standing out asmuch, because you don't have to
be upset about it. So they'realso kind of missing, that
they're actually doing thingswell, a lot more than they're
(32:54):
perceiving to you that yes,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (32:58):
I'd like to underscore you, you nail that
that that? Absolutely. It's likea giving permission to like,
feel like you can focus onthings that you are grateful for
about your kid, that doesn'tmean that mess ups aren't there.
Of course they are. And they'rehappening at a higher rate with
kids that have ADHD than kidsthat don't know that is true. So
(33:20):
I don't want to invalidate theexperiences of parents of kids
with ADHD. But kids with ADHDare still human beings, and we
gravitate towards what we getattention for. And you also said
something else that I'd like toexpand on if that's okay with
you. So, I think it's really,really, I hate to use the word
(33:42):
natural, but like, it'sunderstandable is maybe the
better word about why somereally kind of coercive, or
uncomfortable unhealthy patternscan emerge in families. And it's
partly explained by by whatyou've said about how you're
have all of this, likeattention, or this hyper
(34:03):
vigilance for like, When arethings gonna go badly again. So
let's maybe contrast a couple ofdifferent patterns that we can
see in families. So let's sayyou have a kiddo. And parents
have to give like, you know,scores, if not hundreds of
moments of directions to theirkids every day. So I'll use, you
(34:25):
know, my kids as an example, ifI say, go grab your shoes, and
they go grab their shoes, andstart putting them on. And I
acknowledge that and I don'thave to, like, you know, have a
whole celebration for them forgetting a shoe doesn't have to
be like, Oh, you're the bestlistener ever. But it can just
(34:46):
be like, Hey, thanks forlistening, or even just giving
them a little wink, or a smile,some kind of acknowledgement.
What the kid learns what my mykids will learn is that Things
come when I listen, when Ifollow directions. And what I
learned is that my kids arelike, these awesome listeners.
(35:10):
And, you know, I have theexpectation that when I tell
them something, they're gonnafollow through with it. Now
again, to be to be fair toparents that are, are struggling
with kids have a lot ofinattention or impulsivity, if I
tell a kid to go get theirshoes, and then they don't, and
I look over and they're doing ahandstand against the wall, you
(35:32):
get frustrated? Totally, Iunderstand. I understand that.
But what that can morph into,after a while is developing the
expectation that they're notgoing to listen to you. And that
expectation might be born fromreal experiences. That is true.
Yeah. But what, what that canstart to shift into over time is
(35:54):
that some parents are like, Youknow what, my kid only listens
to me if I am firm, or harsh orlike escalate my own behavior.
And so instead of saying, like,hey, get your shoes, they don't
get up and be like, Hey, whatdid I tell you go get your shoes
over time turns into your shoes.
That's the very first thingyou're saying to them. And then
(36:14):
if that doesn't happen, then thebehavior, you know, the response
really ramps up in ways thatfeel unhealthy, uncomfortable.
And so flipping that script,really, really intentionally can
have a big impact, and kind ofthe harmony within the home,
Kira Yakubov Ploshan (36:34):
especially if there's multiple children.
Yeah. Because now there's otherthings going on, if they're
getting distracted reallyeasily, and you're running late.
And there's like, it's justchaos. It sounds like the parent
also has a lot of internal workto do around frustration,
management and being able tolike, ground and calm down and
(36:55):
be patient. Because it's it, youknow, it sounds easier said than
done. But in the moment, it'sjust like, you gotta check
yourself as the adult to overand over again. Yeah, it's
Jessica Robb Mazzant (37:08):
it takes a lot of effort to change pattern
family. But any amount of effortthat we put in, it's almost
always worth it. Not only forthe kid, but for the, for the
parent or the caregiver, and forthe family as a whole. Like,
it's effort well spent.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (37:23):
And you know, it's so interesting, it
kind of like hits personallylike thinking how you're saying
that, they end up doing thisnegative reinforcement thinking
like, this is the only way mychild will listen. Right? And
like, that's how my parents kindof raised me after a while, was
just being a lot more stern. Oh,she only does things when
there's negative reinforcement.
So that's the way it's gonna go.
(37:44):
That's what I got to bring tothe table. Yeah, yeah. And so
the expectation is, like, Idon't want to mess up because I
don't want to feel shamed oryelled at not because I want to
do a good job of getting introuble. Yeah,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (37:57):
I want to avoid this aversive interaction
that's gonna come. And
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (38:01):
I'm wondering if the parents, I
mean, they're trying their best,right? Like if that they're also
being conditioned, if that's theonly way they get their child's
attention, is they finally dothe thing after being yelled at
or raising their voice? And it'slike, oh, it's working.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (38:17):
I think it all happens really, organically,
naturally. And to a level. Idon't mean unconsciously in the
way that some people mean, but Imean, like, without noticing,
until suddenly, you just arelike, Why am I yelling? And then
and then you might have toanswer the question for
(38:37):
yourself. It's the only thing Iknow, that works. And that's
what I think is really powerfulabout when we can work with
families is we can say I get it.
And I understand. So far, thishas been the only thing that
works. But let's come at thiswith some other strategies, and
some other skills. So now youhave more tools that will work.
(38:59):
And you don't always have to goback to that thing that you
don't feel good about and yourkid doesn't enjoy experiencing.
That
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:07):
sounds like one of the main ones is
really leaning into thatpositive reinforcement, trying
to catch them do the right thingover and over again. What
happens when it doesn't work?
Right, like, or it's taking alot longer for that positive
reinforcement to work andthey're continuing to do
something that's they'restruggling with time management
or disorganization, right, likehow to create a consequence
(39:28):
that's not harsh. Jack can helpthem.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (39:34):
Yeah.
Well, I think one of the thingsthat's really important for
parents to know at the outset isthat we might work on one skill
at a time, but we're not onlyever working on just one skill,
praising your kid or usingpositive reinforcement. If
that's the only tool that you'reusing. You're right, it's not
going to be enough. It's acritical skill, but it's not the
(39:56):
only skill and So we're gonnawork with them on other skills
like how to give directions in away that they're more likely to
be understood how to use rewardsystems for things that are
really hard for your kids. Andthen we're also going to work on
consequences, but notconsequences that are harsh, or
(40:16):
make a kid feel shame, but areconsequences that are, there's a
phrase that I use a lot, whichare natural and logical
consequences. So how to useconsequences that seem really
kind of expected or clear to thekid to teach them, hey, this is
the boundary behavior thatyou're doing not okay. Here's
(40:40):
the alternative that we want youto do. And here's why the
alternative is better. But yeah,when you break one of those
house rules, or when you dosomething that violates the, you
know, autonomy of somebody else,there's gonna be a consequence
for that. But the consequencesnot going to be demeaning. It's
going to be natural and logical,and kind of matched to the
(41:02):
situation. I hate to use thisphrase, but it really fits in
this, like, the punishment hasto fit the crime. Yeah, I hate
crime.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (41:18):
This is for the adults, right? This is
for them to get it to understandexactly. That totally makes
sense. And it makes me thinkabout, you know, like, if
someone is doing something wrongor struggling, you don't want to
continue saving them from it,because then they're not going
to learn the consequence. True.
Yes, that's a great point. Soit's letting them experience
that negative consequence, andthen feel the natural feelings
(41:41):
associated with it. But not youshaming them, and not you
screaming at them, as theconsequence like that is not the
thing that happens because youdid something bad? And do you
work with any immigrant parents,because this sounds like the
hardest thing in the world forthem. As an immigrant,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (42:07):
I can appreciate that. And, you know,
like I said, I am working in thesouth Florida area. I don't do
much direct work with SouthFlorida and clients right now,
as I said, I'm doing more kindof training and supervision. But
I've done a lot of work in thesouth Florida community. And
yeah, there are a lot offamilies that have moved to
(42:30):
South Florida from othercountries, and they bring with
them, their expectations, theirparenting norms, their cultures,
and you have to respect that.
You can't come at people withlike, Hey, I've got the one way
that's going to work andanything different that you do
is automatically wrong. No,there, there are beautiful
elements of so many cultures.
(42:53):
And I think one of the thingsthat we can do is we can say,
Okay, here's the skill. How doyou make this work in a way
that's meaningful for you, foryour family, for your community?
You don't have to do it like Ido it, you have to do it in a
way that feels genuine to you.
And it's more about applying itthan it is like doing it in one
kind of exact fashion.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (43:16):
Sure.
So customizing it within thatwithin that family. Their level
of positive reinforcement. Yeah,it's gonna look very different
than someone else's. Yeah. Thishas been really eye opening and
insightful.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (43:32):
Glad to hear that. Thank you.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (43:35):
Are there any? Any other tips for
whether it's parents or kids? Doyou feel like you're kind of
common that we might not haveone over for people who are
listening that might bestruggling? In this area?
Whether it's like at homehelping them or outside of
school?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (43:52):
Oh, gosh, yeah, there's, there's probably
so many that it's hard to evenidentify one. I'm gonna I'm
actually say something a littlemore broad than specific. I
think whenever anybody is makinga change, so whether this is a
kid learning a skill, or it's aparent, trying a new strategy,
(44:20):
change his heart. It is notsomething that comes without
commitment, or comes withouteffort. But one of the things I
often ask the families that Iwork with, is that is the effort
worth it for you? Would thechange what's going to be the
outcome of the change? So don'tthink about only you know, if I
(44:45):
am, if I use praise, I'll staywith that example. Once or
twice, is my kid gonna suddenlyListen to me? But ask yourself
the question, if I start tonotice the good things that my A
kid does in a meaningful way, Istart to connect with them. And
I start to listen to the thingsthat are important to them. And
(45:07):
I don't do this just once ortwice. But I do it for a couple
of weeks. I do it for a coupleof months. Heck, I commit to
doing it for a year. What impactwould that have on your kid?
What impact would that have onyou? What message are you
sending to your family? Anddepending upon how someone
(45:31):
answers those questions, it canreally drive home for them, why
they're doing this. And then allof a sudden, that's their
motivation. And whether we'retalking about kids or families,
we're talking about any behaviorchange. I think questions like
that are really important to askyourself, because when we can
identify the reason why, andunderstand the commitment that
(45:55):
we're making things click in away that they they wouldn't if
we didn't have that identified.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (46:02):
Now, I love that you brought that up,
because it's so true. I think wemight get so lost in the day to
day or the nitty gritty or thefrustration or like the growing
pains of change. And we kind offorget what the purpose is and
what we're trying to get to.
Like there's this great bookcalled The why things like Simon
Sinek it's like, start with why.
(46:24):
And it always kind of goes backthat's kind of like the anchor
of when you might get lost orfrustrated or just like, forget
why you're doing what you'redoing is kind of go back to what
is your why. So I really lovethat.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (46:37):
I have not read that book, but I need to
pretty impactful.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (46:43):
Yeah.
So Jessica is there how canlisteners get in contact with
you whether they want to workwith you or just have you as a
guest because you have so muchknowledge and wealth on this
topic. Thank you get in touchwith you know,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (46:56):
I would love if people would get in
touch with me that soundsamazing. I love talking about
this, this stuff. So you know, II like I said, I'm an associate
teaching professor at FIU. So myemail address there is J R O BB.
So J rob@fiu.edu. They couldthey could shoot me an email. If
(47:23):
the people listening though ourparents are clients themselves.
I personally don't see clientsthrough FIU. So even if you
contacted me there, I'd sayGreat to meet you. But I'm going
to reroute you to somebody thatthat can help you. If it's okay,
I would like to again mentionedthe two organizations that I
(47:45):
have worked with, because Ithink they do such incredible
work. So at FloridaInternational University, the
same place where I'm aprofessor, even though I don't,
I don't do therapy theredirectly. There's this amazing
center. It's called the Centerfor Children and Families. And
the website is CCF that fiu.eduand DCF does amazing work not
(48:10):
only with kids with ADHD, butalso just with child and
adolescent mental health ingeneral. So they do work with
families that have experiencedtrauma. They do really cool work
with kids that are experiencinganxiety, kids that are
experiencing depression, ADHD,all kinds of stuff. That's a
really, really fantasticorganization. The other practice
(48:33):
that I mentioned that's in thesouth Florida area in Coral
Gables is called South Floridaintegrative medicine. And so
they have a really user friendlywebsite. They have many
psychiatrists, psychiatric nursepractitioners, clinical
psychologists, mental healththerapists, you know, a lot of
(48:53):
just really well informed, greattrained people. And so that's a
practice that I think is is justfantastic. I am always refer
people there. And so I thinkthat would be a really great
practice organization to reachout to for for the type of work
that I've been mentioning.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (49:13):
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing thoseresources. We'll definitely add
those in the in the show notes.
Yeah, for sure. Jessica, thankyou so much for being on for
sharing all of this information.
This has been really incredible.
I really appreciate you. You're
Jessica Robb Mazzant (49:26):
most welcome. And Kara, thank you so
much for having me on. I thinkyou have such a way with words.
And so when you reflect what Iwas saying, I'd be like yeah,
what you said. I reallyappreciate that. I felt like we
understood each other and that'slovely. Yeah, you're
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (49:47):
awesome.
So if anyone listening reallyenjoyed this episode, please
remember to like, subscribe andshare. Otherwise, this is a wrap
Part of good treatment is doing ongoing
(00:03):
high quality assessment. So youare checking in with your client
the the entirety of the timethat you're working with them to
make sure that they are growingin the direction that they want
to grow. They're moving in thedirection that they want to
move.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:19):
Welcome back to Heal Your Roots Podcast.
On today's episode, we have Dr.
Jessica Robbins and join usclinical psychologist sharing
her unique approaches andphilosophy around helping
children and families dealingwith ADHD. If you're a parent or
you have a family member withADHD, you're definitely going to
want to tune into today'sepisode. I'm thrilled for
today's guest, Dr. Jessica RobMazon. Thank you so much for
(00:43):
being with us today, Jessica.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (00:46):
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for having
me. Absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:50):
So before we kind of go into all
your specialties and everythingthat you do, can you share a
little bit about how you gotinto the field, what made you
want to become a clinicalpsychologist?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (01:02):
Sure. Um, so I was a psychology
undergraduate. And in betweentowards the end of my junior
year of undergrad, through myemail, I got this advertisement
for an internship. And theinternship was to work in a
program called the summertreatment program, which was a
(01:23):
really intensive behaviormodification and social skills
training program for kids withADHD. And when I say ADHD, I
mean Attention DeficitHyperactivity Disorder, I'll use
that acronym from now on. And Ithought, well, you know, this,
this seems pretty cool, likesomething I might be interested
(01:44):
in. So I applied, and I feelreally fortunate that I was able
to get that internship. And so Imoved up to the summer treatment
program location, which at thattime was in Buffalo, New York.
And I went through the training,and I started doing this
treatment program. And I felthard and fast and love. I just,
(02:08):
I, I enjoyed working with thosekids so much. I enjoyed the just
professionalism of all of thesupervisors that I worked with,
I took a special class with thedeveloper of the summer
treatment program, Bill Pelham,he offered a summer course on
ADHD. And I just rememberleaving that summer thinking
(02:31):
like, this could be my work,like, I get paid for doing this.
And so for the next 12 years, Iworked in that program, I ended
up applying to graduate schoolto a doctoral training program
in clinical psychology, and thedeveloper of the summer
(02:51):
treatment program, they'll tellthem was my was my graduate
mentor, and, and really my, mylife mentor, and it just that
experience had such a positivechange, and, you know, change
the trek trajectory of my careerand really pointed me in a
direction that I've been so sograteful to have kept moving in.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:16):
That's incredible. So if you didn't get
that email, who knows?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (03:21):
That would have more of an influence in my
life. I'm responsive to emails,but But it actually happened.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (03:29):
Wow, that's really awesome. I
actually love working. I don'twork with any kids. But I love
working with adults who haveADHD because full disclosure I
do as well. And just like,learning myself about it,
helping clients there's so muchinformation about and it's so
intriguing. So it's reallyawesome that you spent all that
time at this. It sounds like areally comprehensive program
(03:51):
that allowed you to learn somuch and help so many people.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (03:54):
Yeah, it is. It's such an incredible
program. And about six weeksago, the developer of the summer
treatment program, Bill Pelhampassed away. And so that's been
a just a huge loss, not onlypersonally, but really for for
our field. But one of the thingsthat it's so incredible is that,
(04:14):
you know, he influenced not onlyme, but so many people that are
very committed to keeping highquality research, high quality
treatment happening. Forfamilies that really need it.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (04:28):
I'm so sorry for your loss. So
Jessica Robb Mazzant (04:29):
thank you.
I appreciate your excitement.
Yeah, absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (04:33):
And so where are you currently working
now? Like, what is what is theprofessional career for you
right now?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (04:40):
So I am an associate teaching professor at
Florida InternationalUniversity. And I work
specifically in a program agraduate program called the
professional counselingpsychology program where the PCP
program for short, and thegentleman that I mentioned, Bill
Pelham, Not only did he startthe summer treatment program,
(05:03):
but he was also reallyinstrumental in helping to
launch the PCP program as itcurrently is. And one of the
things that's kind of unique anddistinct and important about
that program is that it has areal training emphasis on
evidence based practices. Sotechniques and practices that
have been shown through, youknow, good quality research that
(05:25):
they really provide and resultin a meaningful impact on on
clients and families.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:34):
So this guy has been all over.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (05:36):
It really, yeah. And so I'm
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:39):
leaving an impact on the right. Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (05:41):
And I've been working in the PCP program
at FIU since 2012.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:49):
Oh, wow. Okay. So over a decade,
over
Jessica Robb Mazzant (05:52):
a decade, yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (05:55):
That's awesome. So you're working with
students. And then I know, youmentioned you work at a private
practice as well.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (06:03):
So the private practice that I work at,
I work in a in a part timecapacity there, but it's called
South Florida integrativemedicine, and it's in Coral
Gables, Florida. So in the southFlorida area, and I think what I
love about fim, I apparentlyreally like acronyms. A lot is,
(06:24):
you know, it's aninterdisciplinary practice. So
there is a kya tree, there arepsychiatric nurse practitioners,
psychologists, mental healthcounselors. And in really having
such a broad range ofprofessionals there allows us to
do really comprehensive andpersonalized treatment for the
folks that we work with. So I dosee some clients through SFM.
(06:48):
But I also do quite a lot ofclinical supervision. So what
clinical supervision is, iswhere you are a sounding board,
and you help to give advice todeveloping mental health
clinicians, so clinicians whodon't yet have their independent
license to practice, I get thefortune of meeting with them
routinely to, to make sure thatthey're feeling supported and
(07:10):
secure in the work that they'redoing. And I really love that.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (07:14):
molding, the young therapists, next
generation. Supervisors are socrucial. I mean, I loved all my
supervisors, it's such animportant part of the growth in
the learning process of becominga therapist or any kind of
mental health clinician.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (07:29):
I agree.
Yeah, they can have such atremendous impact on us.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (07:33):
So you have a lot of different Yeah,
parently a lot of Yeah, but allvery important ones.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (07:41):
Yeah, I really, I'm, I'm incredibly
fortunate that I get to beinvolved in so many cool things.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (07:50):
And so I know, you mentioned that you
fell in love with working withchildren, teens with ADHD? Can
you share a little bit aboutyour approach of assessment,
like kind of like from thebeginning, when you meet with a
client and their family, andtaking them through that
process?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (08:06):
Sure. So, you know, I think one thing
about assessment that is reallyimportant to remember and to
consider is that it shouldn't bedistinct from treatment. And
what I mean by that is, ofcourse, there's a period of time
where you're getting to know aclient, whether that's a kid,
(08:27):
adolescent, adult, a family,however you define client, you
have to get to know them, get toget to understand them
understand what it is that theywant to, they want to work on.
But part of good treatment isdoing ongoing, high quality
assessment. So you are checkingin with your clients through the
(08:48):
the entirety of the time thatyou're working with them to make
sure that they are growing inthe direction that they want to
grow. They're moving in thedirection that they want to
move. So I want to throw thatcaveat out there. But really, I
think what you meant was like atthe beginning, what are some
things that are important? Howdo you connect, connect with a
(09:09):
kid or connect with anadolescent and their family? So
kind of staying in the world ofADHD, one thing that is
important to do is to to reallydetermine not just what symptoms
are present for this particularkid. But how do those symptoms
(09:29):
impact their life? One of thethings that I think is
absolutely essential is that thefocus of our interventions are
really tied to the problems thatthis client is having in their
daily life functioning. And thatwe are really focused on trying
to develop what we call adaptiveskills. So strategies or
(09:53):
techniques that the person cando to better adapt to the
demands of their life in a waythat are that's going to Help
them make meaningful connectionswith other people be successful
in their environments. Thatreally, that shouldn't be the
focus of treatment. And so italso needs to be the focus of
assessment, we have to reallymake sure that we are explicitly
(10:13):
asking families and kids andadolescents, where they want to
grow, what areas do theyidentify as being their biggest
struggles? And how can we designinterventions to help them adapt
to the struggles that they'rehaving. And that really is the
central focus of both assessmentand treatment, not just trying
to eliminate symptoms.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (10:35):
Gotcha.
Now, that's really important.
And I think that's great tothink about, because everyone is
so different, right? They mightall have very similar symptoms,
but it may not be an issue forone child, because of whatever
reason, maybe their family orthe way they are in school, or
that's just a different kind ofstrength for them, versus
someone else who might be havingthe same symptom, but as
(10:55):
struggling because of thestructure of their environment.
I've
Jessica Robb Mazzant (10:59):
really, yeah, I so value, what you just
said, You're right, you can havetwo people with the same symptom
list. But they're going tostruggle in different areas, or
in different ways, they're goingto have different sets of
strengths. And so you reallyhave to approach each person,
it's just that as an individual,that you need to make sure that
(11:19):
you are understanding to helpdrive drive the treatment
choices that you make.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (11:26):
And I'm also wondering, maybe the
priorities of like the family orthe school system, right? Where
even if they are struggling ornot, which one is more of a
priority work on versus theother as well?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (11:39):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think really
working with the family unit, inparticular is something that I
enjoy, but it's for that reason,you can't treat everything all
at once. And so you have to makea determination about, you know,
what skill can they learn, thatwould have the biggest impact on
their life, or what area oftheir life is causing them the
(12:00):
most distress or the mostimpairment and making those
choices collaboratively aboutthis is where we're going to
start based upon what thatclient and their family is
relaying.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (12:11):
And so well, what do you find are the
most common, whether it's likethe issues or areas, they're
struggling, and then that thefamily is coming in to treat
like the things that arestanding out, like, hey, my kid
is struggling with this, this orthat? This is why we're coming
to you for assessment ortreatment and help.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (12:29):
Yeah, that's a great question. Because
it's very infrequent thatfamilies actually come in and
say, you know, I think my kidhas this symptom and this
system, symptom they might meet,you know, the Diagnostic and
Statistical Manual definition ofthis disorder like that, that
never happens. What families arecoming in saying is that my kid
(12:51):
is struggling, and multipleareas, and I'm worried about
their future. So if I had toboil it down to three kind of
main areas where I see moststruggle, oftentimes, kids are
struggling in school, not thatthey are necessarily failing,
or, or are unable to learn. Infact, many folks with ADHD have
(13:13):
have really developed skill setsand are really, really bright.
But they may lack organizationalskills or understanding how to
prioritize, for example. Sooftentimes, we see kids that are
academically underperformingcompared to where they're likely
(13:34):
capable of performing, or theirgrades are suffering because of
things like they can't structuretheir time to finish a long term
project, or what can sometimesbe the most frustrating for
older kids, they did thehomework, but between doing the
homework and arriving at thatnew location school, it's gotten
(13:56):
misplaced along the way. Andyou'd be surprised how often I
hear that even withelectronically submitted. Still,
there is some barrier there. Sothat's absolutely a domain, I'm
going to ask about necess andsee how how that kid is doing.
This second area is going to bepeer functioning. And many kids
(14:17):
with ADHD struggle in theirtheir peer social groups. And
what we know is that having justone reciprocal friendship, so
when I say a reciprocalfriendship, what I mean by that
is the kid says, hey, you know,John is my friend and John says,
(14:37):
Yep, I'm this kid's friend, theyboth say, Hey, this is a real
meaningful connection betweenthe two of us. Having just one
or a couple of those has thisprofoundly protective impact on
kids. But oftentimes, kids withADHD struggle to kind of get
past that initial friendshipstage and to that reciprocal or
(15:00):
friendship. And there's a lot ofreasons why they might struggle.
Sometimes kids with ADHD havedifficulties with impulse
control. But a lot of times kidswith ADHD can learn from their
environment and can develop sometroublesome reactions or
troublesome patterns and howthey interact with people. And
(15:21):
so they are more at risk forbeing socially rejected from
their peers, because of thingslike high rates of interruption
or not being able to followconversations or things of that
nature. And so really, again,working on that, like skill
development, to empower them tobe able to learn some long
(15:42):
lasting friendship skills, has abig impact on them. And then,
yeah, last but not least, atall, the third area is really
family functioning. So withinfamilies, it's very common for
parents to report that they feellike they're not the best
versions of themselves, orthey're not the parents that
(16:04):
they want to be. They'restruggling in a lot of ways with
their kids. And so the dynamicswithin the household have an old
it in a way that doesn't reallyfeel good to anybody. And
parents report that they,they're using harsher kind of
interactions with their kidsthan they they want to be doing.
And they feel like they have todo that, because that's the only
(16:24):
thing that seems to work or tomotivate their kiddos. And we
know that we're living in anenvironment for a long period of
time that's marked by these highlevels of coercion or hostility
isn't great for kids, it's notgood for their development. And
so really working on changingfamily dynamic patterns, is
(16:44):
something that we check in onand definitely focus on in
treatment, if needed.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:50):
So these are three huge areas. And
as you're speaking, I'm like, ohmy god, it's like the story of
my life. But it's so true. Makessense. When you think about if
you're struggling, and all thesethree areas, and you're a child
or a teenager, like this is yourwhole life, right? You're in
school, or you're at home, oryou're with friends. And if
(17:10):
you're not with friends, oryou're feeling rejected, right,
I'm sure that lowers your selfesteem can cause social anxiety,
you might have more lower selfesteem, because you're not doing
well at school or you'reconstantly getting reprimanded
than at home, your parents feellike that negative reinforcement
is the only way to get you to dosomething. Yep. Like, everywhere
(17:31):
you go, you're getting some kindof like negative reaction or
response to you. It's reallytough, it's
Jessica Robb Mazzant (17:37):
really tough. And you nailed it when
you said it can affect aperson's self esteem. It can
also affect their sense of selfefficacy, or their belief in
themselves that they are capableof doing things because they've
had so many messages sent tothem that they are screwing up
in some way. And that's a toughmessage to receive from so many
(18:01):
different areas of your life,for so many for so long. That's
a tough thing not tointernalize. It's also really
common for kids with ADHD tohave something that we call
rejection sensitivity, so theycan become really attuned to
perceiving or expectingrejection. And so for a subgroup
(18:25):
of kids with ADHD, they canreact in really big ways, when
they perceive that they're goingto be rejected, or that they are
rejected. And sometimes theypreempt it. And so rejection or
kind of pushing back against aperson wasn't intended by by
someone, but it's perceived thatway by that kiddo. And then they
(18:46):
have this big response. So italmost becomes like a self
fulfilling prophecy.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (18:51):
Yeah, it's you're trying to control
it. So like, I know, I'm gonnaget rejected in her. I'm just
gonna get ahead of it. That'scoming. Yep. And then it just
creates more of and then andthen it kind of confirms the
thought like, of course, I wasgonna get rejected. See, this is
what happens. Yeah, yeah. And sowhen you're meeting with kids,
(19:12):
is it? Do they share like theseconcerns? Or is this more from
your family with the familysaying, like, hey, they're
struggling in all these areas?
And then the kids are sharingthis with you, too? Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (19:21):
Well, you're, you're asking a question
that I don't know if you're evenrealizing you're asking for it
anyway. So the younger that thekid is, what we know is that
really kind of intensive socialskills training and intensive
behavior therapy is thetreatment approach that works
(19:43):
best for those kids. Now, when Isay behavior therapy, I do want
to clarify something I'm nottrying to like force or pressure
kids into like, a mode ofresponding or a way, you know, a
really restricted way ofresponding or being but really
until Teaching them through theway that I react to them skills
that they can use in othersettings that's going to help
(20:05):
them to adapt better. So let megive you an example of what I
mean. Let's say I'm, I'm runninga social skills group with kids,
I might have that group of kidsplay a sports game. And the
reason that I would make themplay that sports game is because
sports actually require the useof a lot of different social
(20:29):
skills, you have to be able tocommunicate effectively, you
have to be able to cooperate. Sowork with your your fellow
teammates, you have toparticipate in the game in a way
that is meaningful. And yeah,you use a lot of validation
skills, you're like checking inwith your teammates, you know,
great play there like thatyou're looking ahead. And so
(20:50):
we'll play a game like that. Butone of the things as the
therapist that I'm doing is I'mlooking for all of those things
I just mentioned, to occur. Andwhen they occur, I really
reinforced that in those kids,I'm like, Hey, that was a great
way of communicating with yourwith your teammate, did you say
that skill? I'm gonna make up aname right now, did you see that
(21:13):
skill that Andy did, this is whythat was a good move. So I'm
really trying to strengthen thelikelihood that kids will
continue to use those types ofskills when they naturally
occur. But I'm also providingsome boundaries for the kids
that are going to help them tobe more successful when they're
not looking. So if a kid strikesout, during our baseball game,
(21:37):
for example, and he throws hisbat in anger, maybe that's a
really impulsive reaction thathe has that comes from
frustration. I'm going to talkwith him about how that's not
the appropriate reaction. That'snot an example of good
sportsmanship, and what can hedo differently? And why would
that different behavior, landhim in a better in a better
(21:58):
spot? So if when I say, the mod,or behavior modification, I'm
really talking about a lot oflike, intensive point of
performance feedback. So thesekids interesting.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (22:10):
So I'm hearing a lot of positive
reinforcement or like, point outall the things that you like
that they're doing that you wantthem to do more of? So they're
aware of that. Yep. And notnecessarily negative
reinforcement, but bringing totheir attention that, hey, this
is not appropriate. What couldwe
Jessica Robb Mazzant (22:27):
do? Yeah, there's a consequence, when
misbehavior or really negativebehavior does occur, but the
consequences presented to themin a neutral way, in a factual
way, it's not intended to shamethem, or to make them feel
badly, but to be like, Hey, notokay. Or hey, not cool. So we do
(22:47):
that a lot of different ways.
Sometimes that type of feedback,sometimes it's through something
like a point loss if a kid is ona point system. But the
consequence, that type offeedback is intended to be
instructive. And really, whenyou set up a dynamic where
there's way more opportunity andappeal towards those positive
pro social behaviors, kids startto drift in that direction, they
(23:08):
just need the opportunity have achance to understand where that
attention is going to come from.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (23:16):
I'm thinking about if they're
getting all these negativemessages, and now you're getting
so many positive messages,someone is acknowledging all the
things you're doing well, itstarts to feel really good. And
now you're chasing that feelingthat makes you feel proud you
feel accomplished by it, someoneis telling you something good
about you. So yeah, they want tolean into that way more. Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (23:37):
When the only way for you to get
acknowledgement or intention inyour environment is through
misbehavior, or you get it somuch sometimes, without even
really being conscious of it,people just lean into it.
Because like, that's how that'show I understand that I interact
with the world. But when yougive kids an alternative than
they have that alternativepathway to start to walk down.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (23:59):
And so something I know, with ADHD is
difficulty with consistency.
Right? So even if they'releaning into this, they know
this. If they struggle with theconsistency piece, is that
something you're able to kind ofhelp them with or like navigate
that process? Or is that like anacceptance of like, this isn't
always going to show up thisway? Well,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (24:21):
that's a great question. And you're
right, that consistency can becan be really difficult. And one
of the things particularly whenwe're talking about kids, or
even when we're talking aboutadolescents, I might tweak this
answer a bit if we're talkingabout adults, but I don't think
that consistency should solelybe the child's responsibility. I
(24:43):
think we need to get them into agreat habit. I think we need to
teach them skills explicitlythat are going to help them in
their life. But I think thatconsistency piece falls upon the
adults in our lives. We need tobe working with the caregivers
and the life of the kids teachIn them how to respond
differently, how to create thosepositive connection
(25:05):
opportunities that we'recreating in therapy create those
in the home setting, we need towork with the teachers that the
kids are interacting with. Sothey have that same kind of
dynamic. So yeah, the kid needsto show up for themselves, they
need to show up with thoseskills that they're learning,
but other people in the lifethat the kid needs to show up
to.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (25:24):
So it sounds like you work with kids,
if in a setting of otherchildren, right, like this is
like in a group to see how theyinteract and help everybody is
that the most common way thatyou work with children, or is it
like one on one as well,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (25:37):
it's not the most common way that most
therapies work with kids, butparticularly for kids with ADHD,
we know that that approach landsa lot better, it works a lot
better. And it results in bettertreatment gains than working
with kids individually. That'snot to say that working with
(25:58):
kids individually is neverwarranted, like, of course. But
we do find that net socialmodeling, and giving them the
opportunity to practice becauseif you think about it, for most
kids, in the context of afamily, it's not just you, it's
(26:19):
a lot of people in a family. Ina classroom, it's not just you,
it's a lot of people in aclassroom, in a Girl Scout
troop, it's not just you know, alot of Girl Scout troop. So
giving them the opportunity topractice in a social setting.
It's not solely, that they needto learn social skills, though
(26:39):
many do. But that it's givingthem the opportunity to practice
in an environment that's moresimilar to what their life looks
like. So yeah, that's part ofthe reason why a lot of the work
we do with kids is group basedwork.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (26:55):
That's really interesting. I didn't,
you know, as you say, to totallymake sense, right? I mean, it's
a lot more experiential, if thisis what they're struggling with,
instead of just talking aboutthe thing, you go and do the
thing and like live, you cancorrect it or work with it. And
they can continue repeating itversus just talking about it one
on one and then going out intothe world and they forget, or in
(27:18):
the moment, they don't know howto use it, or the moment has
passed. Right. So that's, Ireally love that.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (27:24):
Thank you.
The other thing, and this is notour direct intention, but it can
happen often is that we havekids in the group that become
friends with each other, andthey understand each other at a
level that maybe other kidsdon't, because they're dealing
with such similar thing. And sowe've had many lifelong
friendships kind of born out ofthe summer treatment program, or
(27:46):
the social skills groups that werun. And then it's real
meaningful feedback that they'regetting from their real life,
friends, their real life peers,it's really beautiful.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (27:59):
There's a lot of things happening here.
They're learning all this stuff,they're actually making friends.
And all of this is helping themgain more confidence, practicing
all these skills that they cantake back into school at home or
other places. So it's, it'ssustaining these life skills,
it's not just learning it,trying it a little bit doesn't
work. Let me try a differentsetting and may not work. But it
(28:22):
is like continuing. Yeah.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (28:25):
And you know, we're talking a lot about
these kind of social skillsgroups, or these behavior
modification groups. One of theother aspects of treatment that
I really love is doing what'scalled behavioral parent
training groups. So where youbring the parents of the kids
together to same thing, learnskills to better support their
kids in their home environments.
And behavioral parent trainingcan be done individually, or it
(28:48):
can be done in a group.
Personally, I love doing it in agroup because they'll see Elden
communities, right there aremany parents of kids with ADHD
or their mental health issuescan feel really isolated.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (29:04):
I feel like it might almost be harder
to work with the parents and thekids themselves.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (29:11):
I think any teacher would say the same
anybody who works with kids inany capacity can say, Georgia
Gray, that's probably.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (29:20):
And so how do you how do you work with
the parents? What are somethings that you kind of teach
them to do, because they're theones that have to reinforce this
and keep the environment going,like you said, they have to be
consistent with this practice in
Jessica Robb Mazzant (29:33):
those groups. It's kind of a
combination of things. One,there are some skills that we
teach parents, and a lot ofthese skills in isolation, feel
maybe kind of small, but youtake enough of these small
skills and you stack them up andsuddenly it accounts for a big
change and how their parentingor how they're interacting with
(29:56):
their children. So an example ofone type a skill that we might
work on with parents is like howto use your attention in a way
that's meaningful. So a lot ofparents, and I want to say this
in a way I want to qualify it, Iguess, is what I want to say. I
don't think that this happens,because anybody's trying to,
like, do poor parenting. But Ithink it just naturally unfolds.
(30:22):
And just like kids learn fromtheir, their environment,
parents learn from theirenvironment. But what can happen
is that sometimes parents can beon the lookout for misbehavior.
So when it happens, they'relike, Oh, see, there you go
again, or, you know, a version,a version of that type of
response. And then when kids,you know, are getting longer are
(30:45):
playing nicely. And I can saythis, because I'm a parent I
know, for myself, is you'relike, who you have a moment
where you're, like, Don't rockthe boat things? Well, right
now, there's, they're goingswimmingly. And, you know, here
and there, that's no biggie. Butif it's not just here, now,
(31:07):
that's kind of the mode ofresponding. What ends up
happening is that kids get adisproportionately large dose of
attention for all of theirmisbehaviors and all of their
mess ups. And comparatively, no,or very small amounts of
attention, or meetingexpectations for doing things
(31:31):
the right way. And humans aresocial creatures, we gravitate
towards what we get attentionfor. And so even though it might
sound really small, just bybringing that to the awareness
of parents, and saying, We wantyou to start to pay more
attention to the things yourkids are doing, well, we want
(31:51):
you to catch them being good.
You want your kids to listen toyou the very first time, every
time she listens to you, everytime he listens to you on the
first time, I want you toacknowledge that in a meaningful
way. What it does, as kids startto drift towards attention. And
so kind of slowly it starts toshift the way that they're
responding. And then forparents, many times they
(32:15):
respond, they report that likethat permission to like, let go
of some of this behavior andfocus on the good stuff there
kids doing feels really good.
That's something that they theywant. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (32:33):
And I'm sure that brings awareness to
them, of how much they areactually listening, right? Yeah.
Also, they're also filtering forsomething bad to happen. So
you're more likely to think thatthere's a higher number of that.
And this isn't standing out asmuch, because you don't have to
be upset about it. So they'realso kind of missing, that
they're actually doing thingswell, a lot more than they're
(32:54):
perceiving to you that yes,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (32:58):
I'd like to underscore you, you nail that
that that? Absolutely. It's likea giving permission to like,
feel like you can focus onthings that you are grateful for
about your kid, that doesn'tmean that mess ups aren't there.
Of course they are. And they'rehappening at a higher rate with
kids that have ADHD than kidsthat don't know that is true. So
(33:20):
I don't want to invalidate theexperiences of parents of kids
with ADHD. But kids with ADHDare still human beings, and we
gravitate towards what we getattention for. And you also said
something else that I'd like toexpand on if that's okay with
you. So, I think it's really,really, I hate to use the word
(33:42):
natural, but like, it'sunderstandable is maybe the
better word about why somereally kind of coercive, or
uncomfortable unhealthy patternscan emerge in families. And it's
partly explained by by whatyou've said about how you're
have all of this, likeattention, or this hyper
(34:03):
vigilance for like, When arethings gonna go badly again. So
let's maybe contrast a couple ofdifferent patterns that we can
see in families. So let's sayyou have a kiddo. And parents
have to give like, you know,scores, if not hundreds of
moments of directions to theirkids every day. So I'll use, you
(34:25):
know, my kids as an example, ifI say, go grab your shoes, and
they go grab their shoes, andstart putting them on. And I
acknowledge that and I don'thave to, like, you know, have a
whole celebration for them forgetting a shoe doesn't have to
be like, Oh, you're the bestlistener ever. But it can just
(34:46):
be like, Hey, thanks forlistening, or even just giving
them a little wink, or a smile,some kind of acknowledgement.
What the kid learns what my mykids will learn is that Things
come when I listen, when Ifollow directions. And what I
learned is that my kids arelike, these awesome listeners.
(35:10):
And, you know, I have theexpectation that when I tell
them something, they're gonnafollow through with it. Now
again, to be to be fair toparents that are, are struggling
with kids have a lot ofinattention or impulsivity, if I
tell a kid to go get theirshoes, and then they don't, and
I look over and they're doing ahandstand against the wall, you
(35:32):
get frustrated? Totally, Iunderstand. I understand that.
But what that can morph into,after a while is developing the
expectation that they're notgoing to listen to you. And that
expectation might be born fromreal experiences. That is true.
Yeah. But what, what that canstart to shift into over time is
(35:54):
that some parents are like, Youknow what, my kid only listens
to me if I am firm, or harsh orlike escalate my own behavior.
And so instead of saying, like,hey, get your shoes, they don't
get up and be like, Hey, whatdid I tell you go get your shoes
over time turns into your shoes.
That's the very first thingyou're saying to them. And then
(36:14):
if that doesn't happen, then thebehavior, you know, the response
really ramps up in ways thatfeel unhealthy, uncomfortable.
And so flipping that script,really, really intentionally can
have a big impact, and kind ofthe harmony within the home,
Kira Yakubov Ploshan (36:34):
especially if there's multiple children.
Yeah. Because now there's otherthings going on, if they're
getting distracted reallyeasily, and you're running late.
And there's like, it's justchaos. It sounds like the parent
also has a lot of internal workto do around frustration,
management and being able tolike, ground and calm down and
(36:55):
be patient. Because it's it, youknow, it sounds easier said than
done. But in the moment, it'sjust like, you gotta check
yourself as the adult to overand over again. Yeah, it's
Jessica Robb Mazzant (37:08):
it takes a lot of effort to change pattern
family. But any amount of effortthat we put in, it's almost
always worth it. Not only forthe kid, but for the, for the
parent or the caregiver, and forthe family as a whole. Like,
it's effort well spent.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (37:23):
And you know, it's so interesting, it
kind of like hits personallylike thinking how you're saying
that, they end up doing thisnegative reinforcement thinking
like, this is the only way mychild will listen. Right? And
like, that's how my parents kindof raised me after a while, was
just being a lot more stern. Oh,she only does things when
there's negative reinforcement.
So that's the way it's gonna go.
(37:44):
That's what I got to bring tothe table. Yeah, yeah. And so
the expectation is, like, Idon't want to mess up because I
don't want to feel shamed oryelled at not because I want to
do a good job of getting introuble. Yeah,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (37:57):
I want to avoid this aversive interaction
that's gonna come. And
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (38:01):
I'm wondering if the parents, I
mean, they're trying their best,right? Like if that they're also
being conditioned, if that's theonly way they get their child's
attention, is they finally dothe thing after being yelled at
or raising their voice? And it'slike, oh, it's working.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (38:17):
I think it all happens really, organically,
naturally. And to a level. Idon't mean unconsciously in the
way that some people mean, but Imean, like, without noticing,
until suddenly, you just arelike, Why am I yelling? And then
and then you might have toanswer the question for
(38:37):
yourself. It's the only thing Iknow, that works. And that's
what I think is really powerfulabout when we can work with
families is we can say I get it.
And I understand. So far, thishas been the only thing that
works. But let's come at thiswith some other strategies, and
some other skills. So now youhave more tools that will work.
(38:59):
And you don't always have to goback to that thing that you
don't feel good about and yourkid doesn't enjoy experiencing.
That
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (39:07):
sounds like one of the main ones is
really leaning into thatpositive reinforcement, trying
to catch them do the right thingover and over again. What
happens when it doesn't work?
Right, like, or it's taking alot longer for that positive
reinforcement to work andthey're continuing to do
something that's they'restruggling with time management
or disorganization, right, likehow to create a consequence
(39:28):
that's not harsh. Jack can helpthem.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (39:34):
Yeah.
Well, I think one of the thingsthat's really important for
parents to know at the outset isthat we might work on one skill
at a time, but we're not onlyever working on just one skill,
praising your kid or usingpositive reinforcement. If
that's the only tool that you'reusing. You're right, it's not
going to be enough. It's acritical skill, but it's not the
(39:56):
only skill and So we're gonnawork with them on other skills
like how to give directions in away that they're more likely to
be understood how to use rewardsystems for things that are
really hard for your kids. Andthen we're also going to work on
consequences, but notconsequences that are harsh, or
(40:16):
make a kid feel shame, but areconsequences that are, there's a
phrase that I use a lot, whichare natural and logical
consequences. So how to useconsequences that seem really
kind of expected or clear to thekid to teach them, hey, this is
the boundary behavior thatyou're doing not okay. Here's
(40:40):
the alternative that we want youto do. And here's why the
alternative is better. But yeah,when you break one of those
house rules, or when you dosomething that violates the, you
know, autonomy of somebody else,there's gonna be a consequence
for that. But the consequencesnot going to be demeaning. It's
going to be natural and logical,and kind of matched to the
(41:02):
situation. I hate to use thisphrase, but it really fits in
this, like, the punishment hasto fit the crime. Yeah, I hate
crime.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (41:18):
This is for the adults, right? This is
for them to get it to understandexactly. That totally makes
sense. And it makes me thinkabout, you know, like, if
someone is doing something wrongor struggling, you don't want to
continue saving them from it,because then they're not going
to learn the consequence. True.
Yes, that's a great point. Soit's letting them experience
that negative consequence, andthen feel the natural feelings
(41:41):
associated with it. But not youshaming them, and not you
screaming at them, as theconsequence like that is not the
thing that happens because youdid something bad? And do you
work with any immigrant parents,because this sounds like the
hardest thing in the world forthem. As an immigrant,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (42:07):
I can appreciate that. And, you know,
like I said, I am working in thesouth Florida area. I don't do
much direct work with SouthFlorida and clients right now,
as I said, I'm doing more kindof training and supervision. But
I've done a lot of work in thesouth Florida community. And
yeah, there are a lot offamilies that have moved to
(42:30):
South Florida from othercountries, and they bring with
them, their expectations, theirparenting norms, their cultures,
and you have to respect that.
You can't come at people withlike, Hey, I've got the one way
that's going to work andanything different that you do
is automatically wrong. No,there, there are beautiful
elements of so many cultures.
(42:53):
And I think one of the thingsthat we can do is we can say,
Okay, here's the skill. How doyou make this work in a way
that's meaningful for you, foryour family, for your community?
You don't have to do it like Ido it, you have to do it in a
way that feels genuine to you.
And it's more about applying itthan it is like doing it in one
kind of exact fashion.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (43:16):
Sure.
So customizing it within thatwithin that family. Their level
of positive reinforcement. Yeah,it's gonna look very different
than someone else's. Yeah. Thishas been really eye opening and
insightful.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (43:32):
Glad to hear that. Thank you.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (43:35):
Are there any? Any other tips for
whether it's parents or kids? Doyou feel like you're kind of
common that we might not haveone over for people who are
listening that might bestruggling? In this area?
Whether it's like at homehelping them or outside of
school?
Jessica Robb Mazzant (43:52):
Oh, gosh, yeah, there's, there's probably
so many that it's hard to evenidentify one. I'm gonna I'm
actually say something a littlemore broad than specific. I
think whenever anybody is makinga change, so whether this is a
kid learning a skill, or it's aparent, trying a new strategy,
(44:20):
change his heart. It is notsomething that comes without
commitment, or comes withouteffort. But one of the things I
often ask the families that Iwork with, is that is the effort
worth it for you? Would thechange what's going to be the
outcome of the change? So don'tthink about only you know, if I
(44:45):
am, if I use praise, I'll staywith that example. Once or
twice, is my kid gonna suddenlyListen to me? But ask yourself
the question, if I start tonotice the good things that my A
kid does in a meaningful way, Istart to connect with them. And
I start to listen to the thingsthat are important to them. And
(45:07):
I don't do this just once ortwice. But I do it for a couple
of weeks. I do it for a coupleof months. Heck, I commit to
doing it for a year. What impactwould that have on your kid?
What impact would that have onyou? What message are you
sending to your family? Anddepending upon how someone
(45:31):
answers those questions, it canreally drive home for them, why
they're doing this. And then allof a sudden, that's their
motivation. And whether we'retalking about kids or families,
we're talking about any behaviorchange. I think questions like
that are really important to askyourself, because when we can
identify the reason why, andunderstand the commitment that
(45:55):
we're making things click in away that they they wouldn't if
we didn't have that identified.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (46:02):
Now, I love that you brought that up,
because it's so true. I think wemight get so lost in the day to
day or the nitty gritty or thefrustration or like the growing
pains of change. And we kind offorget what the purpose is and
what we're trying to get to.
Like there's this great bookcalled The why things like Simon
Sinek it's like, start with why.
(46:24):
And it always kind of goes backthat's kind of like the anchor
of when you might get lost orfrustrated or just like, forget
why you're doing what you'redoing is kind of go back to what
is your why. So I really lovethat.
Jessica Robb Mazzant (46:37):
I have not read that book, but I need to
pretty impactful.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (46:43):
Yeah.
So Jessica is there how canlisteners get in contact with
you whether they want to workwith you or just have you as a
guest because you have so muchknowledge and wealth on this
topic. Thank you get in touchwith you know,
Jessica Robb Mazzant (46:56):
I would love if people would get in
touch with me that soundsamazing. I love talking about
this, this stuff. So you know, II like I said, I'm an associate
teaching professor at FIU. So myemail address there is J R O BB.
So J rob@fiu.edu. They couldthey could shoot me an email. If
(47:23):
the people listening though ourparents are clients themselves.
I personally don't see clientsthrough FIU. So even if you
contacted me there, I'd sayGreat to meet you. But I'm going
to reroute you to somebody thatthat can help you. If it's okay,
I would like to again mentionedthe two organizations that I
(47:45):
have worked with, because Ithink they do such incredible
work. So at FloridaInternational University, the
same place where I'm aprofessor, even though I don't,
I don't do therapy theredirectly. There's this amazing
center. It's called the Centerfor Children and Families. And
the website is CCF that fiu.eduand DCF does amazing work not
(48:10):
only with kids with ADHD, butalso just with child and
adolescent mental health ingeneral. So they do work with
families that have experiencedtrauma. They do really cool work
with kids that are experiencinganxiety, kids that are
experiencing depression, ADHD,all kinds of stuff. That's a
really, really fantasticorganization. The other practice
(48:33):
that I mentioned that's in thesouth Florida area in Coral
Gables is called South Floridaintegrative medicine. And so
they have a really user friendlywebsite. They have many
psychiatrists, psychiatric nursepractitioners, clinical
psychologists, mental healththerapists, you know, a lot of
(48:53):
just really well informed, greattrained people. And so that's a
practice that I think is is justfantastic. I am always refer
people there. And so I thinkthat would be a really great
practice organization to reachout to for for the type of work
that I've been mentioning.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (49:13):
Awesome.
Thank you for sharing thoseresources. We'll definitely add
those in the in the show notes.
Yeah, for sure. Jessica, thankyou so much for being on for
sharing all of this information.
This has been really incredible.
I really appreciate you. You're
Jessica Robb Mazzant (49:26):
most welcome. And Kara, thank you so
much for having me on. I thinkyou have such a way with words.
And so when you reflect what Iwas saying, I'd be like yeah,
what you said. I reallyappreciate that. I felt like we
understood each other and that'slovely. Yeah, you're
Kira Yakubov Ploshansk (49:47):
awesome.
So if anyone listening reallyenjoyed this episode, please
remember to like, subscribe andshare. Otherwise, this is a wrap
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