April 10, 2024 • 57 mins
In this compelling episode of the Heal Your Roots Podcast, we warmly welcome back Dr. Katie Manganello as we delve into the intricate experiences of postpartum and perinatal OCD. With a compassionate approach, this discussion unfolds the layers of what it means to battle OCD while stepping into the world of motherhood. Dr. Katie provides expert insights, coupled with practical advice, aiming to enlighten, support, and empower those on this challenging journey. This episode is not only a source of invaluable information but also a testament to the strength and resilience inherent in parenthood. Whether you're directly impacted by these issues or stand in support of those who are, this episode is an essential listen for understanding the complexities of maternal mental health.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:01):
Welcome back to Heal Your Roots Podcast.
For today's episode we have Dr.
Katie Mangan ello. Joining usagain, and some exciting news is
that Dr. Katie will be areoccurring guest co host with
Heal Your Roots Podcast.
Dr. Katie Manganello (00:14):
So there's postpartum OCD and there's
perinatal OCD. So OCD thatoccurs immediately after the
child is born is called thepostpartum, sad. And then OCD
that occurs during pregnancy iscalled perinatal, OCD. There's
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:30):
a lot of uncertainty. I think there's
a lot of uncertainty. And it'shard to know, which is the right
thing to do. And all the timethere is no right thing like I
know we talked about in adifferent episode, like there is
no right thing. There's just thebest thing under the
circumstances for you, Katie,I'm so excited to have you back
(00:51):
on and have you on for futureepisodes.
Dr. Katie Manganello (00:53):
I am so excited. I'm really looking
forward to it as well, I thinkwe'll have a lot of good topics
to cover.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (01:00):
So today's episode is going to be a
little bit different from ourusual structure. Usually, when
we have a therapist or mentalhealth practitioner on we kind
of interview them, get to knowthem, their background and
everything. But today, since weare the CO hosts to kind of set
the field, it'll just be us kindof having a conversation and
we're really gonna dive intopostpartum OCD anxiety, and what
(01:25):
it's like to be a new mom as anentrepreneur. So Katie will
actually be interviewing me theinterviewer has turned into the
interviewee. So this is going tobe a little bit different for
us. So I'm really excited to beasked some questions and share
some of my experiences with you,Katie and the rest of the
listeners.
Dr. Katie Manganello (01:43):
Yes, me too. I cannot wait. As somebody
who is not a mother, or really,you know, not yet in life. I'm
really excited to pick yourbrain a little bit about how
it's going for you, especiallyas a new mom, so I can't wait to
get into it. But yes, if wewould like to start out talking
about some OCD and thepostpartum and Perinatal realm,
(02:06):
I'd be happy to talk about that.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (02:08):
Absolutely.
Yeah. So Katie, I know in theother episodes, so you've been
on to other episodes so far withus. And every time I asked you
to share what is OCD for thelisteners, so if they haven't
listened before, if you can kindof share what that is, and then
in particular, postpartum OCD aswell. Yet,
Dr. Katie Manganello (02:28):
yes, so briefly, just typical OCD. It's,
it's, it's a disorder that is adoubting disorder. And it is
comprised of two parts, which isthe obsessions and the
compulsions. Obsessions are thecore fears or the intrusive
thoughts, images, of whatever itis, it's feeling very
(02:48):
distressing. Common themes wouldbe contamination, harm OCD. I
think the contamination is likeone of the most popular but
there's also religious OCD arescrupulosity. So there's lots of
different types, which I've kindof touched on in previous
episodes. So so that's kind ofthe theme with the obsessions.
(03:10):
So obsessions fears, thatcompulsions are things that
people are doing to try toalleviate that distress that
comes along with the intrusionsbut the more people engage in
compulsions, the moredistressing the disorder
becomes. The compulsions providea short term relief, but long
term distress. So commoncompulsions would be maybe
(03:33):
flipping light switches, orwashing hands, those types of
things that people more commonlyheard about. So anybody wants to
learn more about that, or othersubtypes, they can listen to
some of the other episodes, butas it relates to this topic, so
there's postpartum OCD, andthere's pairing natal CD. So OCD
(03:53):
that occurs immediately afterthe child is born is called the
postpartum OCD. And then OCDthat occurs during pregnancy is
called perinatal, OCD. They'repretty similar there, because
they're all surrounding thebaby. So another big thing to
know about OCD is it's alwaystargeting your values, and going
(04:15):
towards the things that youreally care about. So it makes
sense that new parents canexperience these things because,
you know, they're they're soexcited and happy to have a
baby, right? And so, there's alot of there's also a lot of
pressure to be like, I gottakeep this little baby alive,
right? There's a lot of fears, Ithink that come up and it's
(04:35):
normal to an extent for peopleto experience some of those
fears or stressors that comewith just having a baby. But
the, you know, postpartum orperinatal, OCD is what kind of
takes it to that next level. Alot of the obsessions would be
about the baby getting hurt, orcontaminated or loss. Also
(04:56):
unwanted sexual obsessions attimes a lot of the compulsions
related to this might involvechecking the baby checking baby
monitors excessively, mentalrituals seeking reassurance
about being a good parent. Otherthings too, could be avoiding of
(05:16):
the baby, if they're afraid ofharming the baby, one thing that
they might do could beavoidance, which can be really
problematic, right? Because thatcan turn into neglect if there's
not other people there to youknow, caretaking and help out,
and that the goal for the newparent is to never actually
neglect their baby, right? Like,I want to make that clear that
(05:36):
it's more so that they areafraid that they would
potentially harm the baby. So,you know, these things can show
up in different ways. But moreimportantly, the people who are
experiencing these fears, thefears almost never, you know,
come true in the turn in termsof feeling that they are
actually going to harm theirbaby, and then them actually
(05:58):
intentionally harming the baby.
Obviously, accidental harmhappens at any rate with being a
parent, right, to some extent,but in terms of fearing that
they're going to intentionallyharm their baby, it's, you know,
highly unlikely that that'sactually going to happen, the
more you engage in the treatmentfor it. Does that accurately
would you say that makes senseas a summary of what that might
(06:22):
look like?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (06:26):
Yeah, so I wanted to ask, actually,
because a lot of the things youmentioned, I think, are very
common that just come up ashaving a new child, like being a
new parent having a completelynew responsibility in life, of
making sure that this otherhuman being that's basically
helpless, relies on you to stayalive. So there's so much
(06:46):
responsibility and pressure,that what is kind of the
differentiator between like,what is kind of normal stress
and anxiety and concern versuscrossing that threshold of like,
okay, this is becomingobsessive, or this is a
compulsion, and this is nothealthy. And I need to seek help
for this.
Dr. Katie Manganello (07:06):
Right?
Yes, you're right. And this iswhere it can be a little bit
difficult, because these arenormal reactions in a lot of
ways. But there is kind of thatfine line where it's no longer
normal, like, if you areconsistently distress. So I
mean, somebody is probablychecking the baby monitor. Not
at all now some times beforethey fall asleep. Yeah, right.
(07:30):
Or if there are concerns of, youknow, the baby seemed more, they
caught a cold, so I'm going tobe checking it a little more
frequently than I typicallywould. Or they've been having
trouble sleeping. And so we werekeeping an extra eye on them,
right. But it's another thing ifthings seem to be going well
with the baby, we put the babydown, and we are constantly
(07:52):
checking their breathing andanalyzing, seeing their chest
going up and down, up and down.
For hours, right are for a veryextended period of time. i When
I'm usually explaining OCD, Iusually would explain it as it's
interfering with yourfunctioning. But there is a
(08:13):
level of being a new parent thatwhether it's OCD or not it it's
not quite interesting. You'regoing to have your functioning
interfered with regardless as anew parent, right. Yeah. So I
think a lot of it is also howdistressing it is for somebody.
Like I remember the first personthat I heard assess, that had
met for OCD with their baby wasthey were, it wouldn't be on
(08:40):
just like a lack of sleep,because you have to get up to
feed the baby. It was that like,Okay, now that the baby's
asleep, I don't get to go tosleep now. Because now I need to
watch the baby and make surethat nothing happens to them
while they're sleeping. And likewatching them in their crib. And
again, like checking to see thatthey're breathing or this one
person I know, I recall, theywere doing like, excessive, like
(09:02):
prayers around the baby. Likethey'd have to pray so many
times that certain prayer inorder for the baby to stay safe.
Things like that. They can alsoseem like maybe less. Those are
more common types of things thatpeople would be doing with a new
baby, right, like checking themonitor. Other things that maybe
wouldn't be as common thatpeople with OCD, postpartum OCD
(09:24):
might be struggling with isaround that harm of the baby. So
maybe excessively washing handsbefore picking the baby up so
that the baby doesn't get sick.
Or that going back to thatavoidance piece. Maybe they're
avoiding changing diapersbecause they're having
intrusive, unwanted intrusivethoughts of what if I molest the
baby while I'm changing theirdiaper? Or purposely saying oh,
(09:45):
I'm gonna let my partner carrythe baby down the steps because
I don't want to get on thefreight I'll drop the baby or
maybe I'll lose control andthrow the baby down the steps
right like so. Have you arepurposely avoiding those things
now can be normal for a thoughtlike that they're popping your
head, right? Maybe Maybe I'lltrip and fall and drop my baby,
(10:05):
which sounds very scary. But youthen kind of take a second back
and you're like, alright,strange thought we carry the
baby down the steps, versus It'sa rule in the house that I'm not
going to carry the baby down thesteps, my partner does that.
That's their responsibility. Sothose are some of some examples
where things might look a littlebit different, versus with being
(10:26):
OC versus other parentingchallenges that happen with any
new parent.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (10:36):
Yeah, I'm glad you were able to
explain that. Because as yousaid, each one for a lot of them
was like, Oh, I wish I knew thatbreathing nonstop. Oh, I have
these intrusive visuals of like,oh my god, what if I drop her if
when I trip, I'm super clumsy,right? So I'm like, Oh, my God,
I'm scared that I'm going todrop her. So I'm, like,
constantly watching where myfeet are going to make sure.
Right? Like, I don't want her toget sick. But it's, it sounds
(10:58):
like it's the excessive piece,right? Like, we all have a
little bit of that. And thenwe're able to transition out or
do something different. Versusit sounds like the person gets
stuck in this and it lasts forhours and days and however
Dr. Katie Manganello (11:11):
long.
Right? Right. And exactly, anddepending on how far they get
stuck. Like it can show up indifferent ways too. Because I
mean, again, it's kind of likeshowing up on a spectrum, right.
Like, on a typical, you know, ina typical couple, maybe he just
has a baby, like I'm sure thatthere is like a level of, you
know, you you make bicker morethan typical, or there's like,
(11:33):
you know, general parentingstruggle with your partner and
how that interferes in yourrelationship. Right. But it
could go to a whole nother levelof the OCD taking over where
they're like, I have to dealwith the baby 24/7 year I
cannot, you know, give mypartner any attention. Because
I'm so focused on the baby kindof thing, right? There's
(11:53):
obviously going to be a bit ofthat happening along that that
spectrum, right. But it's whenit becomes more extreme and
interfering with therelationship or in your life and
other ways. opposed to this is atypical New parenting type of
situation. That's tough. I thinkthat. So, Karen, I have another
(12:14):
episode coming up here, in, Iguess it would be the week after
this. I'll let them editwhenever that's going to come
out. But we have an upcomingepisode with a few of my
colleagues, Dr. Brown and Dr.
Bliss, they specialize inwomen's health. And so they will
(12:36):
be able to come on and talk morein depth about women's health.
How you know, postpartum anxietyand depression can show up
differently than the typicalkind of adjustment period. And
all those types of things. Theyalso know a lot about
infertility and things of thatnature and adjusting to
(12:59):
challenges as it relates tothose issues. So we will be able
to have a much more in depthconversation with them about
some of this stuff.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (13:08):
Yeah, so stay tuned for that. I think
that I mean, this is great todifferentiate, because I feel
like a lot of the information,like while I was pregnant
afterwards, was not commonknowledge, and not very clear.
And things that are normalized,or it's a stigma or you think I
should be doing this, I shouldbe feeling this way. And it's
very confusing and conflictinginformation online. Because you
(13:29):
know, doctors don't always sharea lot of this information or,
you know, if you don't take likea baby class alone or with your
partner, you may not know. So Ithink this is going to be really
beneficial for people ages tokind of normalize this
experience, but to be able totell the difference between what
is a common or normal I hateusing the word normal, but like
(13:50):
generally right expected, versusan unhealthy amount that is, you
know, getting into a differentterritory that this could be
obsessive compulsive disorder.
Dr. Katie Manganello (13:59):
Yes. For sure. As you were saying that I
was thinking to another prettybig marker of differentiating is
the level of guilt and shamethat is experienced, you know,
we always hear of like, momguilt, right? Like, there's some
of that that's going to show upagain, generally, but like, it
can become much more intensethat that really intense feeling
(14:21):
of shame and guilt that comesalong with it being OCD.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (14:25):
Yeah.
And I think it's tough to know,because, you know, a lot of
people are not in the field,right? They're not mental health
professionals or medicalprofessionals. So they may not
know what that threshold is. Andit could be a very subjective
experience of Well, yeah,everyone has mom guilt, or
everyone experiences thesethings. So this is probably
normal or I shouldn't beanxious. I should be worried.
Isn't that a sign of me caringand it being like a healthy
(14:48):
amount of worry, right? Likegrowing up my mom would say you
know, someone loves you abouthow much they worry about you.
Not healthy but you know likemen messages that we receive?
It's you don't really know whatthat threshold is. I'm curious
to know also, is this somethingthat shows up if someone never
had OCD or wasn't diagnosed withit before that it can kind of
(15:12):
start new as an onset afterbecoming a new parent? Or is
this more common if someone hasalready had OCD? And now this
the topic or the focus hasshifted? Yeah,
Dr. Katie Manganello (15:23):
that's actually a really good question.
So with the perinatal, or thepostpartum OCD, it seemed, from
what researches it seems toaffect about one to 2%, of
pregnant or postpartum women.
But it also shows up obviously,for people who, who have already
had OCD, and then symptoms canworsen. Also OCD likes, like
kind of like hot themes. So ifsomebody was maybe experiencing
(15:47):
contamination, OCD in the past,and they've gone through
treatment, they're better butnow they have a baby. Now, it
might be like, harm orcontamination towards the baby
type of thing. So yes, it theanswer is both, it can bring a
flare up or a new episode orexacerbate things with somebody
who has already had it. And itcan also tend to just, you know,
(16:08):
be increased for pregnant orpostpartum women. Also, another
thing that people don't talkabout at all I feel like, not
much is how this can happen forfathers too. I know some fathers
who experience anxiety aroundnot anxiety, not just anxiety,
like OCD around, you know, justthat increased responsibility of
(16:32):
their child and wanting to keepthem safe and same types of
behaviors showing up really?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:38):
Yeah, yeah, actually, when I was
taking that, like a baby class,which I highly recommend for
anyone who is pregnant orplanning to be pregnant, take a
baby class before you have thebaby. Very valuable. But I
learned in there, you know,postpartum for the partner who
may or may not be the father oranother, you know, depending on
the relationship structure isthat the partner can also have
(17:00):
postpartum depression, anxiety,OCD, who's not the birthing
parent, and how it's reallyimportant to also be aware and
look out for cues for that aswell. So I think we don't
necessarily it's not maybe it'scommon to think about the
partner, because the birthingparent is going through all of
these changes at once, that weforget that the supporting
partner also needs support, andis also having a huge life
(17:24):
transition for them to that
Dr. Katie Manganello (17:27):
it really is something that has is not
something that is talked toomuch about unless you like you
said, you go to a specific DBclass or, you know, I mean,
that's not even anything thatwas really showing up in my
training until I was seeingpeople and it was showing up and
I was, you know, yeah, ofcourse, we would treat it the
same way. But yeah, it is anuance, and I think it's sad for
(17:51):
those other partners, because itmight feel less valid for them
to experience those things. Butit's really not any less valid.
It's, it's still a hugetransition and a big shift in
responsibilities. So absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (18:08):
I think I should also want to make a
note that this also goes foradoptive parents to have a baby,
right? Like it's not yes,there's all these changes for
the mother after the hormonalimbalance, and all of these
things, and the partner but alsoif you're adopting a child, like
being a new parent is hardperiod. Regardless of what part
(18:28):
of that process you are, we're apart of.
Dr. Katie Manganello (18:31):
Yeah, definitely. Which this seems
like a good time for us to segueinto some of our questions for
you. What do you think?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (18:40):
Sure.
Yeah, you know, I noticed myselfbeing like, like, keep asking
questions. I keep trying to bethe interviewer. But yeah, go
for
Dr. Katie Manganello (18:48):
it. Yeah, let's talk, let's, you know,
switch the roles a little bit.
So I'm so excited to hear aboutwhat it's like having a new
baby, I'm kind of at the age orthe realm in my life, where my
friends are just starting tohave babies or get pregnant. So
I actually don't have reallymany people in my life that I'm
(19:10):
really close to that do havebabies yet. So, but some are
coming up. So I am like, readyto get all the details. And I
don't know what this like thisis like because everybody says
how hard it is and how you don'tsleep, and how there's a lot of
body changes. But I feel likethere's so much more to it that
people just don't talk about. SoI can't wait to dig in. I think
(19:31):
one of the first things I wantto ask you about is just in the
realms of in the realm of beinga professional. So on one
aspect, you're a business owner,right? And then on the other you
are a therapist, so I'm reallycurious for you what some of the
challenges have been. Let'sstart out with maybe like the
(19:52):
Business Route, you know,because there's a lot of places
if you work at a hospital forexample, if you work In a
hospital, you already have, youknow, benefits through your job
and how you have an allottedpostpartum time that you can
take off. Right? So withouthaving a job where it's like
(20:13):
that, where you kind of make therules, right? How did you work
through the whole maternityleave? And in managing the
business?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (20:26):
Yeah.
So part of this was actually alot of planning before I even
got pregnant or was thinkingabout starting to try to get
pregnant. Being in privatepractice, especially being a
private practice owner, I think,has a lot of benefits and
privileges, and that I cancreate my schedule, I can, you
know, I'm in control of my job,who I see when I see them, you
(20:47):
know, the structure who I workwith everything like that. So I
already had in my mind that,okay, I'm in private practice, I
don't have a built in maternityleave, right? Like, if, if I
don't see clients, I don't getpaid, right. Like, that's kind
of how it goes for a lot oftherapists who might be in
private practice, right? There'spros and cons to this a lot of
freedom, less burnout, but thenalso not as much of the
(21:11):
financial stability sometimesdepending on your caseload,
right. And if you're not seeingclients, you're not getting
paid, like I said, so I reallyhad this in mind to plan for,
okay, I want to own a privatepractice a group practice,
because if I'm not going to beworking, there has to be some
other kind of income coming in.
So having other therapists inplace. And really, I mean, this
(21:33):
was built out very long, priorto this, right, is thinking
about having other income. Sohaving other therapists work
under me having other whetherit's a course that we're working
on right now, publishing a book,having other streams of income
and thinking about that ahead oftime. And creating that really
made a huge difference. Justknowing that I always knew I
(21:55):
wanted to be a mother, and I'min private practice, I'm a
therapist, so and I don't wantto work in an agency. So how am
I going to align all of thesethings, so a lot of planning
took place. Also, then being inthe practice, having the group
practice already, and beingsomeone who did a lot of the
administrative work and wears amillion hats in the business. I
(22:17):
knew that Okay, once I have mybaby, I'm not going to be able
to answer your phone calls forconsultations. I'm not gonna be
able to do all of these things.
Like I don't know what myschedule, I know that I'm not
going to have a predictableschedule. And you can't run a
business like that. Right,right. So we made sure that we
brought in employees that wouldtake those roles. And that
happened way in advance. Andthat was really hard to release
(22:39):
that control of being like, thisis my baby, like, I've been
running this, like, I know howeverything is supposed to
supposed to go how I want it togo, right. And being able to
hand that off to somebody wasreally tough. But we found such
an incredible person, Serena,who's our intake coordinator,
that it has made the transitionso much smoother and easier and
(23:01):
like a huge relief and weightoff my shoulders. That I thought
like, why didn't I do thatsooner? Like what was i Holding
on to, but that has been huge.
And instrumental is likecreating a team. Right? Like
they say like, it takes avillage. It. It's not like it's
a cliche, but it's really true.
It takes a village to run apractice takes a village to
(23:22):
raise a child to do anythingreally big. You need a team of
people that you can trust inplace that do good work. So that
was part of the that process.
And that was a long windedanswer. No,
Dr. Katie Manganello (23:36):
that was a great answer. And those are all
things that I have not orwouldn't necessarily just think
of off the top of my head, likeyou talking about that whole
aspect of having to really dropsome control and like, hand over
responsibilities of your baby,right? And I'm sure you're gonna
have to do that with your, youractual baby. Right. You know
(23:59):
what, that's something I think alot of people struggle with is
actually, so there is a littleplug for Bravo. I don't know if
any of our listeners also watchBravo. But there's the show
Vanderpump Rules. Were one ofthe people on there. Her name
Sheena, she actually has OCD,and was the end. She just had a
(24:22):
baby a couple years ago. And oneof her things that shows up is
that she really struggles withallowing other people to watch
her baby. And so it was reallyinterfering with her
relationship and with herability to work and go do things
without letting the BBB witheither her mom or her sister or
(24:44):
somebody who is a close familymember. And that was a huge
strain. So if anybody watchesthat that is something where
it's a really good example ofwhat this can look like, right?
So I'm sure that that's going tobe a challenge not just with
work but also No, little baby.
Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (25:03):
I mean, I'm fortunate enough to have my
mom who lives close by to watchher pretty regularly for, you
know, my mother in law to watchher. It was like friends in town
and things like that I have alot of people in my life that I
trust, I don't typically havepeople in my life that I don't
trust. So I think that kind ofeliminates some of that, knowing
that these are all people that Ican rely on that I trust that
(25:26):
we'll be able to take care ofher that would never do anything
intentionally to harm her.
Right? So that takes a lot ofstress off of me and pressure.
And having that peace of mind.
I'm like, take her. Like, if youwant to hang out with her hang
out with her, I'm gonna go takea nap or I'm gonna go do
something else. Because I that'sthat peace of mind. I don't know
(25:48):
what it's going to be like, ifwhen we're going to need to have
someone who is not an immediatefamily member or a close friend.
Right? That's gonna be tough,because I don't know you. And I
don't know what your intentionsare. And you know, there's a
whole slew of things. It's goingto take a lot of time to trust
somebody to watch this littlehuman. That's yours. So yeah, I
(26:08):
mean, I can't I don't have OCD.
But I can imagine that beingexacerbated, because that is
really scary to think about
Dr. Katie Manganello (26:15):
it is.
Yeah, definitely. So youexplained a lot of how you had
to do so much planning for avery long time to make these
changes within the businesswithin your practice. Right. But
how do you feel like it'simpacted you specifically around
(26:35):
being a therapist? So like your,your main role, right?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (26:42):
Yeah, so that was interesting. Because
we are fully telehealth, a lotof my clients didn't know until
I told them until I chose totell them, right, because if
we're in person, it's going tobe hard. It's a high that right.
So I had a little bit morecontrol in when and how I was
going to tell my clients, Iwaited until I think it was like
(27:05):
maybe four months before I wasdue. And I think that was a good
time, because it was allowingthem to know, okay, like in four
months, which is a solid amountof time to I think mentally
prepare that, you know, mytherapist is gonna go on leave.
If I need to make anyadjustments, like the things
that we're working on, we cankind of adjust or continue. Like
that was a good amount of timeto kind of therapeutically work
(27:27):
through that with the client,and give them space to process
if they needed to. Luckily, allmy clients were like, so happy
for me and excited. And just,you know, wishing me all these
wonderful things, and then wentright back into what was going
on with them. So it wasn't ahuge disruption. I also didn't
have a huge caseload at thatpoint, because I have the group
(27:49):
practice. So a lot of the othertherapists have a bigger
caseload than me, I was reallyjust seeing clients that I've
seen for a really long time justmaintaining, I wasn't taking any
new clients on after a certainpoint, because I wanted to be
mindful and respectful that, youknow, if you're going to be
opening up to me, and we'regoing to be doing deep work, and
I'm going to leave in a coupleof months. That's not really
fair. Right? So I made sure toanyone who was reaching out to
(28:13):
let them know, you know, I'm notaccepting new clients. And if
they push, like, listen, like,I'm going to be on maternity
leave soon. So I really likeit's going to be a disservice to
you. So I'm not going to be ableto see you. So that part wasn't
too bad. I think a really hardpart of the process of being
pregnant and a therapist is thefirst few months of just being
(28:34):
so nauseous, like that wasrough, because they call it
morning sickness. But it is notmorning sickness, it is all day
sickness. Like I don't know whythey came up with in the
morning, because it's not, it'snot just in the morning, I don't
know about other people'sexperiences, mine was up to no
matter what time of the day itwas, it could happen at any
(28:54):
point. And working in privatepractice was huge. Because I
thought to myself, like I reallydon't know how I would have been
able to handle this if I workedin an agency or a hospital or a
setting where I can't a workfrom home and be just call out.
Like he was. I'm very gratefuland fortunate that I was able to
(29:15):
work from home and set my lifeup in that way. Because man that
was really tough. So like i Myheart goes out to a lot of women
who don't have that, and eitherhad to push through or call out
or maybe lose their jobs orjust, you know, figure out a way
to move through that because itis debilitating, to just be
nauseous all day long orthrowing up or being in bed like
(29:39):
your mind is elsewhere. And astherapists you know, like we
need to be present we need to beemotionally and mentally present
for our clients and because Iwas able to like shift my
schedule around. I was able tokind of mitigate some of that
and let my clients know likehey, like I'm not feeling too
well like you know, touchingbase with them to keep them in
(30:00):
formed what was going on?
Dr. Katie Manganello (30:03):
Well, I definitely would not think about
that aspect of being nauseous.
And like working with that.
Yeah. Because I've definitelyheard of people saying that,
Yes, you. It's not just in themorning, right. But the ability
to actually have to be sick ifyou are sick, right? Can't just
be I mean, you could I mean,things can happen, but it's
(30:25):
tough if you're mid sessiontalking to somebody and you're
like, you're right. Yeah, Imean, they're gonna have that's,
I guess, but yeah, I mean, ifyou can plan for that, and you
have the ability to kind of movethings around. And sure, that
makes that a lot moremanageable. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (30:41):
I mean, imagine being hungover. Right,
like, think about the worsthangover hangover you've ever
had for like, a month. And nowyou have to do therapy? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like that.
And then just eating likesleeves of crackers, just
saltines? Because you know, sowe won't go into the details.
(31:03):
TMI, but, yeah, the beginningstage is really tough.
Especially being a therapist,because you need, you know, this
emotional capacity that getsreally dwindled away, because
you just don't feel well, for areally prolonged period of time.
Dr. Katie Manganello (31:17):
Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up.
Because one of my otherquestions I was thinking a lot
about is how your body changesjust throughout the whole
process. So you just alreadystarted by saying a little bit
about what was challengingearlier on in the pregnancy. But
can you say anything else aboutjust how your body changed? And
(31:40):
if there were any positiveaspects or, you know, negative
aspects, or just kind of neutralthings that just changed that
maybe you weren't expecting?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (31:48):
Yeah, I mean, so many things. with body
image, it's really crazy. I'mreally, really trying to be
mindful and intentional, of howI speak about myself physically,
and how I feel about myself,because I have a daughter, and I
really don't want to pass down.
Like negative body image issuesand beliefs and narratives. It's
(32:09):
really hard, right? Like, youknow, I've done a lot of work
myself, but still, like, it's soingrained the way that we look
and how that kind of ties to ourwork, and how we feel about
ourselves and how we feel likeothers perceive us. And there
was a point, like, in thebeginning of the pregnancy,
where I didn't look pregnantjust yet, but I definitely
gained weight. And, you know, itcould have been like, Oh, she
(32:33):
just had like, a lot of burritosthese past few weeks, like
what's going on? You know, like,no one is going to ask you if
you're pregnant, but I felt likepeople knew I was gaining
weight. And like, there was thisreally weird, you know, like,
internally like feeling selfconscious and wanting to be
like, I'm pregnant. Like, that'swhy I look this way. But like
not doing that, because that'sstrange and weird. And you know,
(32:54):
and then once I finally hadlike, my belly pop, I kind of
felt relieved. And I was like,embracing it. I'm like, Oh,
everybody knows now. Like, it'sokay. You can talk to me about
it. Like, yeah, of course, I'mgonna look big. I have a baby
growing inside of me. Like, it'sfine. Like, a lot of some of
those insecurities kind of wentaway because I had this reason
or like,
Dr. Katie Manganello (33:15):
I'm not allowed to be bigger now,
because I have a reason I have ababy. Not just because my weight
is fluctuating kind
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (33:22):
of Yes.
Yeah, that was really big. Andthen just finding things that
fit like, there are not a lot ofstores or places that sell
flattering or cute maternityclothes. I mean, yes, if you
want to just throw a bag on you,and call it a day you can. But
you know, you still want to lookcute. So they had a really hard
(33:43):
time finding things that wouldlike fit me and make me feel
good and make me feel soattractive. Right? So even just
going through a process of likeshopping, and then trying on
clothes, which is likephysically exhausting. I was I
don't even feel like taking mypants on and off. Yeah, I bet is
tiring. But yeah, like so manythings changed. My feet were
inflamed. My hands were swollen.
(34:06):
It's it really is like thisroller coaster where like the
beginning with like, myexperience person. Everyone is
different. Right? Some peoplelove pregnancy. And they enjoy
it. And there's not any of thesehiccups or they don't like
experience negative aspects ofit and like, kudos to them. Like
that's phenomenal. Like one ofthe lucky ones. Right? Like,
(34:26):
love that for you was not myexperience. Yeah, it's like the
beginning as you're nauseous youfeel horrible. second trimester
is pretty good. You're gettingyour energy back, your belly
showing. So it's exciting,right? Like you're able to like
eat again and do all of thesethings. And then third trimester
creeps around and it's likeokay, like now I'm getting
(34:47):
heavy. Now my back hurts. Now Ihave restless leg syndrome that
I never had or knew what thehell that was and very
unsettling experience. It's hardto sleep. You have to like roll
from one side to the other toget up every single time, like I
really took advantage of thefact of just being able to like
move in a very natural way.
Because every, every movement,it's very intentional, like how
(35:12):
you're getting up and whereyou're moving. And is it worth
it to go over there? For all theeffort that I have to put into
doing this?
Dr. Katie Manganello (35:22):
Yeah, little things you would not even
think about at all.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (35:27):
Yeah.
And I think a big piece of thephysical part is needing so much
help. I needed so much helpphysically to get things right
or couldn't bend over a certainpoint, you really have to rely
on a lot of people around you.
Which, you know, depends on yourpersonality can be either, you
know, some people welcome thatother people, you know, it's
really hard. If you have a hardtime asking for help or
(35:48):
receiving help. It's going to betough, like I you know, there
was, especially after thepregnancy, like, I needed a lot
of help physically, and like,that really weighed on me
emotionally. And just like how Ican't do a lot of these simple
tasks. I felt like a burden. Ifelt, you know, useless, right?
Like, I really did, like, Ican't do anything, I have to
(36:09):
take care of a baby. I'm healingbut someone else has to take
care of me, like, Oh, my God,like, this is a horrible, it
felt like a horrible experience.
Like I need someone constantlyto help me. And it felt very, I
felt very helpless and hopeless.
And for a little bit in thebeginning, I think like, as I
spoke to a lot of new moms likeoh, yeah, like, there was a lot
(36:29):
of crying in the shower in thefirst two months. I'm like, Wow,
I did too. Like nobody talksabout that prior. It's, you
know, there's a lot of sadnessthat kind of comes through like
this grieving and transition.
It's, it's a lot to carry in thebeginning.
Dr. Katie Manganello (36:44):
Right. And I think another big part of the
beginning that I foresee beingincredibly difficult for me as a
person, is the keeping it asecret, like you can't really,
you're not supposed to like, orit's not, I don't know, like you
just everybody says what youdon't tell people for what the
first how please be okay. Sothat's a long time to keep a
(37:08):
really, really, really big lifechange happening. And that also,
I can understand, I guess, therationale for why that is the
way it is. But also, it's like,it has to feel isolating to an
extent.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (37:25):
Yeah, and you know, a lot of the time
people say that is because thelikelihood of miscarriage is so
high in the beginning. Which,you know, it's kind of sometimes
it feels counterintuitive,right? Like, if I have this big
thing going on with my body. Andnow like, if I plan this, and
I'm excited about thispregnancy, right, and I want to
(37:46):
share this with everybody. Andthen, you know, I haven't if
this person has a miscarriage,and nobody knows you're pregnant
to begin with, and now you'regrieving. It's a you have to
tell people, so they're like,Oh, my God, and now you have to
tell them the next thing thathappened. So it's like this
emotional roller coaster where Ifeel like actually might be more
helpful if the closest people toyou knew. So that right? God
(38:10):
forbid, if that happens to you,which is very common, that you
have that support that you need.
Right. It's it's almost like asuperstitious thing that we've
kind of accepted as the norm isthat, you know, don't share this
because if it doesn't work out,not everybody knows about it.
Like that's kind of weird,right?
Dr. Katie Manganello (38:27):
Exactly.
It's very much that whole thingin society of don't share your
discomfort or don't share thatyou're right. Don't make other
people uncomfortable with yourdiscomfort. Meanwhile, this is a
huge, huge, I mean, having amiscarriage I cannot even
imagine like I and it's commonto right. So it does feel like
there should be more supportaround that.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (38:51):
Yeah, I mean, they say within the first
as the first 12 months or 12weeks, right is when it's the
most likely I think it's like25% chance for any pregnancy. I
don't know if that's exactly,but it's pretty high up there.
Like it's, I mean, almost everyperson in my life who has been
pregnant or you know, somethingalong the lines, like there's a
(39:12):
lot of women in my life that Iknow, that have had experienced
a miscarriage. Yeah, and yeah,it's not. It's not that, like
it's not talked about it sayscommon, right. And I think that
if people recognize like, itdoesn't mean there's something
wrong with you or that you didsomething to cause this. Like,
it's just like, biologicallylike, this is what happens like
these are the statistics of whatcan happen. Like we're literally
(39:35):
growing a human inside of us.
It's not always going to workout unfortunately. So like
having that support ahead oftime, I think is actually really
important. Like we told, we tolda couple people like the day we
got the pregnancy test that itsaid pregnant like I can't keep
that secret. I feel like that'show I can keep other people's
secrets but my own secrets. I'mlike, I want to tell everybody
Dr. Katie Manganello (39:58):
say that But yeah, yeah, I totally hear
you on that. Well, so those werea lot of the changes that were
kind of happening for you whileyou were pregnant. But what's it
been like? Since you've had yourbaby? Do you want to talk a
little louder? Sure.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (40:18):
So do you mean in terms of like,
physically or just like all ofit?
Dr. Katie Manganello (40:22):
So I am curious physically, for sure.
But I, I do also want you to beable to just kind of talk about
the fun stuff with her and likebeing able to see her and like,
learn about her personality asshe's growing and all of that.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (40:37):
Yeah.
So it's, you know, it's, it's areal roller coaster. Like when
people say, Oh, it's reallyhard. You know, I feel like
people who are not parents, andwe did this to you like this
hubris, like, Oh, it can't bethat hard, or like everybody's
doing it. Like we all know,we'll be able to figure it out
better. You get humbled realquick. It is as hard as people
say, and even harder. And it'snot like, the hard thing is that
(41:02):
you are so sleep deprived. Andyou're so sleep deprived, like
you can't function, right, likeyou don't have time or energy to
do anything. Besides make surethat this baby is alive, fed
changed and safe, right? Likeyou don't really have you don't
hear about sleeping much youdon't have time to eat, you
(41:22):
don't have time to clean thehouse like or clean yourself.
Like, there's all these thingsthat kind of go out the window,
especially in the verybeginning. So everything is
focused on this baby. And all ofthese new responsibilities that
don't go away, are there. So ifyou're someone who is already
anxious, this is going to takeit up a notch. Like I'm normally
(41:43):
in a kind of an anxious person.
I've worked on it a lotthroughout my life at coping
mechanisms. But guess what allthose coping mechanisms go out
the window, because I don't havetime to do them. So it was
really tough. In the beginning,I'd say the first first two
months, but mostly like thefirst couple of weeks were
(42:04):
brutal, it was really justtrying to survive. And I have to
say that, like I'm very, veryfortunate and blessed to have a
partner who is in it with me24/7 throughout all of it, and
he works from home with me,right? Like, that's because we
intentionally made our life thatway. But, you know, having
someone to like, you know, tagteam of okay, like, I'm gonna
(42:24):
lose my shit, can you come inand take your turn, and then
vice versa, and like doing allthe things together, and knowing
I can trust him, and he's thereto support me like emotionally,
mentally, physically, like, allof it. Especially during those
like fluctuating hormones in thebeginning where like, you just
are grieving your old self. Likeyou're a completely new person.
(42:47):
Now, this new role, your bodydoesn't feel like yours anymore.
You're healing from childbirth,whether it's vaginal, or, like
this area, and Ryan, like all ofthese changes, and having a
partner who has your back and islike, reassuring you and
supporting you is so huge andimportant that you give a shout
out to Iran like thank you forhelping me so much. And I found
(43:10):
a mommy group in myneighborhood. That has been
awesome, huge. Yeah, like beingable to go every Friday to this
group. They like sit with otherwomen who are moms and talk
about this stuff and supporteach other. A lot of them are
business owners to like havingthat community, I think has been
instrumental in like, keeping mesane for my mental health, for
(43:31):
sure. And I think now that she'slike, you know, there's a little
bit of a pattern now aggravate,she's sleeping, we know when
she's going to sleep for howlong kind of when she needs to
eat like we're picking up on hernow. And when she smiled for the
first time, like in response tous, My heart melted like that's
when I was like, Oh, this is allworth it now. That was a game
(43:56):
changer. For sure. I was seeingher smile in response to us.
Gosh, that is so cute. Yeah,she's a doll and like, you know,
you can see her a littlepersonality now like when she
laughs is certain things arelike, you know, she her reflexes
are just crazy. Like, I'm reallyhighly sensitive person, like,
sensory wise, and I think thatshe, I mean, she's kind of like
(44:16):
that, too. Like, she reactsreally well to things. And it's
just like fun to watch her groweach week is like something
different seriously, like, she'sgaining weight or her hair color
is changing. Her eyes arechanging. She's responding to
things. It's it's reallybeautiful to watch that part and
think about like, Who is shegoing to grow into like this
little human that you know, mypartner and I are molding to be
(44:38):
a good person, like, what is shegoing to be like in a couple
years is really cool to thinkabout? Yeah,
Dr. Katie Manganello (44:45):
that really is so cool to think
about. And you know what else isjust so interesting about this
is I bet we could have this sameconversation, like every week or
every month and all of youranswers could be different or
Right. Yeah, like your answer ifI asked you right now, because
I'm finding myself going to belike, like the most challenging
thing, what's the most rewardingthing. But I think that's so
(45:08):
subjective to the phase thatyou're just in right now, which
just like, talk aboutmindfulness being important. I
feel like as a parent, that'ssomething you have to like, soak
in. Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (45:18):
I mean, being in these mommy groups, and
like, the moms are likedifferent stages with their
kids, right? Like, I have theyoungest, I showed up like two
and a half weeks postpartumpeople, like how are you even
here? I'm like, I don't know,I'm, I'm a zombie, I don't know.
But seriously, and like theother moms, they have babies who
are like eight months, who'sthree years old? 10 1218. It's
(45:41):
like a wide range, which isreally cool. And the common
theme is that every stage iseasy and hard. It's just
different, right? Like, what'shard about this stage will make
the next stage easy. But thenthat stage has its own
challenges. So really just likebeing in the moment, like, she's
never going to be this ageagain. And she's never going to
(46:02):
do the things that she's doingnow. So it's kind of like it's
two sides of the same coin, justembracing it. Right. And like, I
think that really definesunconditional love. Right? Like,
all of the neg not, I mean,there are a lot of the negative
things that come with this.
There's all these positiveaspects, and just challenges
that it's like, wow, like, I'mgrowing and learning as a person
(46:24):
while I watch her grow and learnto be a little human being and
like, she's realizing she hashands. Like, you know, like,
she's got feet, she's usingthem. And it's like seeing life,
from the beginning as like thisage is really fascinating. So I
really like we try to be aspresent as we can. I mean,
obviously, sometimes it's reallyhard to do that, because we're
(46:46):
just like in the thick of it.
But I think that that's good.
Like the common theme that I'mhearing for everybody else is,
it's it's easy and hard just indifferent ways. Like it doesn't
actually ever get easier. Thisstage gets easier because you
don't have it anymore.
Dr. Katie Manganello (47:02):
What would you say up until this point has
been the most challenging, orlike the most surprising. The
most
Kira Yakubov Plosh (47:09):
challenging, I really think is the sleep
deprivation is just like, like,you know, when you go to the
airport, there's this jokes,like when you go to the airport,
it can be at any time of the dayand like you'll get a mimosa
because times not real. Right?
Like, right? Yeah, it kind offelt like that, like, especially
in the beginning, like, itdoesn't even matter. Like if
it's day or night because I'mdoing the same thing every hour
and a half to two hours thatlike time is a fake. It's just a
(47:32):
construct. Like, it's not real,like we were kind of like losing
it. Like this is you're notsleeping and it's so hard to
function and like control youremotions or your thoughts or to
do anything when you don't havesleep. I think I was surprised
that how not how little sleep Iwas gonna give like how much it
(47:53):
was going to impact me. BecauseI was like, oh, like, you know,
I've had all nighters, and I've,you know, done this and blah,
blah, blah, but like, it's sodifferent. Because, you know, if
you're a procrastinator, you'rejust like, Oh, I'll put this off
sale tomorrow, like you justcan't, because guess what, it's
gonna start over in two hours.
Again, it's like GroundhogGroundhogs Day, a little bit. In
(48:15):
the beginning. I don't want toscare people. But I think those
first two months are reallybrutal, but then pass that it
definitely gets like easier,right? Like, you know, the
patterns, they sleep a littlebit longer. There's more gaps
between when they're eating,they're showing their
personality, right. Like, thebeginning is just like a shit
show. And you Trump I mean, meand Ron trauma bonded for sure.
(48:36):
Like, I think it eitherstrengthens your relationship or
can tear it apart. Yeah, I couldtotally say that. That was the
most surprising thing,especially to
Dr. Katie Manganello (48:46):
when you're saying like, the first in
the beginning of being reallydifficult. I'm sure that it's
also just hard to navigate. Hey,products, there are what
products you're supposed to do,then there's a whole I mean, if
we even started about talkingabout breastfeeding, that would
be like a whole episode. I feellike it's like, do you do you
not do you do both? Like, justfiguring all of those things out
(49:09):
on top of it, I'm sure is reallychallenging.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (49:12):
Yeah, I mean, so much stress and anxiety
and just like analysis paralysiscomes through because there are
so many products in the marketand like, do I even need this?
Like, you know, especially whenyou're going through like your
baby shower guestlist or notguestlist the registry? Yeah,
gift registry, right. Like, Istill lose my mind. Like Mom
(49:33):
Brain is very real, by the way.
And, like knowing like, whatshould I be doing? is so tough,
like, even as a therapist, Iknow that like you shouldn't
should, right like even withinthat you everyone is different.
It's always gonna look you know,depending on the person the
circumstances, it's only basedon someone else's opinion. You
know, but if you're a newparent, like you really don't
(49:55):
know like, you can read all thebooks and you get all this
unsolicited. buys from people,but it's really just about
paying attention to like whatworks for you, your family, your
baby and your circumstances,which is going to change from
person and family to family.
Right. So like breastfeeding, wecan talk about that for a whole
hour. Like, we don't have enoughtime for that. But like, that
(50:17):
was really challenging to, like,Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give
this a try. If my body will, youknow, produce and, you know,
this is what we've been, youknow, made for the beginning of
time to do my body has been, youknow, constructed in this way,
like, I'm going to try to do it.
And, you know, luckily, shelatched right away. But you
know, am I produce the anxietyis, am I producing enough? How
much is she getting? Is itenough? What should I be eating?
(50:40):
I haven't eaten enough, I'mdehydrated. I'm not sleeping,
like, is she? Okay? Why is shecrying? It's just like, so many
spiraling thoughts around justfeeding the baby. And then it's
starting all over again. And inan hour.
Dr. Katie Manganello (50:56):
Yeah, and I know that people put like, a
lot of pressure on themselvesto, to, for it to, for you to be
able to do it. Right.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (51:03):
Yeah, like at the hospital, they
asked, like, are you going tobreastfeed are gonna do formula?
And I was like, I don't know,like, maybe can I do both? Like,
I want to do both. And that'swhat we've been doing is both
right, like I breastfeed I pumpand I give formula, depending on
what's going on thecircumstances, her like the
stage in life, like, do I havetaught, like, there's all of
these factors that like, thereis this message and even as a
(51:26):
therapy, like, it's so hard,because as therapists like, we
know, a lot of stuff likecognitively we get it, but we're
still humans are still emotionalbeings that like, are influenced
by the people around us. Andit's like, well, I really want
to stop breastfeeding. When Ifeel really guilty about that.
You know, and like a lot ofshame, like I should be able to
(51:47):
do it. If I can do it, then youknow, I should do it. And
there's people who can't do itthat wish they could, or the
bonding or, you know, what isthis gonna do to my baby? Or,
you know, like, there's allthese thoughts that you're just
there's a lot of uncertainty, Ithink there's a lot of
uncertainty. And it's hard toknow, which is the right thing
to do. And all the time there isno right thing, like I know, we
(52:09):
talked about in a differentepisode, like there is no right
thing. There's just the bestthing under the circumstances
for you.
Dr. Katie Manganello (52:17):
Right. And I mean, no wonder, this subtype
of OCD exists, right. Talk aboutuncertainty. I mean, you'll do a
CD. Right. So yeah, of course,it's gonna be scary, right?
Like, it's a lot. Yeah. So Imean, I think we've obviously
touched on a lot of challenges.
And obviously, I'm sure there'sso many more, but to kind of
like, tie a nice little bow onwhat we've been discussing, what
(52:39):
do you feel like has been thebest part of being a new mom?
And what are you most excitedabout for your future with her?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (52:50):
I think the best part of this is a
couple of things is, I reallygot to see how strong I am. I
think a lot of the time, mylife, I've you know, been told
or told myself, like, Oh, I'mkind of like physically weak, or
I'm very emotional andsensitive, and I can't handle a
lot of things. And you know,through this process, I've
(53:11):
realized them a lot strongerthan I give myself credit for.
And that I can show up and dowhat I have to do when it really
counts. And I think that hasbeen a huge difference in like
how I view myself and the way oflike, resilience has definitely
been different. And I thinkanother great part is
relationally, like, me and mypartner being a lot stronger,
(53:34):
like going through thistogether. And like, even when
it's crazy, like finding thehumor in it, like, you know, she
pooped five times in a row andhe changed her diaper five
times, and six times she likeshe got it on him and like we
just started crying, laughinglike, just trying to find the
humor in some of this and doingit together as a team, I think
(53:55):
has been really great. And likewatching him be a dad and like,
watching how sweet and cute thatis, you know that he's holding
her and talking to her and thenlike, we're buying these little
books, like he's got a wholescience set of like astrophysics
for baby is like just like sillythings and like, spending time
with her. I think the best partis in the morning when we wake
(54:17):
up and she opens her eyes andsees us she smiles like She
giggles and like it's so it's sosweet to see that that it's like
okay, even if I didn't getsleep, like it's such a great
way to wake up. It's like seethis little beautiful smile back
at you and like, it's it's love,right? Like, no one is telling
her like, You should do this tomake mom feel better like,
right. It's innocent. It'sreally innocent and sweet and a
(54:40):
lot of like loving emotions. SoI think that the best part of
this for me has been like,witnessing and being aware of
like all the relational piecesof how this ties in and feeling
more closer and connected tothem.
Dr. Katie Manganello (54:53):
Yeah. Do you feel I know. So that was
gonna be my last question, butone more. How do you feel like
now Let your Aman that it'sgoing to change you as a
therapist as it relates toempathy and like other parents
and not because I'm sure it hasto be a totally different
perspective.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (55:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's it goes from being
able to like, cognitively thinkabout something rationally to
just like, I like in thetrenches like you can really
relate Right? Like when we gothrough something, we have a
client that goes throughsomething similar, like it's
just a different level ofrelatability. And like the
nuances, right? Like, it's thenuances you don't notice, think
(55:32):
about because you weren't in it.
And just knowing these littlepieces, it's like, it just like
takes it to the next like, Iknow the difference being like
this pump to this pump, becauseof how it makes my boobs feel
right. Like, I would never thinkof that or like, it takes so
long to leave the house. I usedto be like, why are people
always late with kids? Like, whydon't they just leave an hour
earlier? Like, you silly, sillyperson. Good idea. Yeah. And
(55:55):
like, I think we're really, interms of empathy as a therapist,
but also just as a person, like,Man, I should apologize to my
mom. Like the amount of wealways joke like in the Jewish
culture, God is Jewish guilt.
(56:16):
But like, seriously, like theamount of things that you go
through the sacrifices that youmake in your body and in your
life, where this human that youlove, for them to not appreciate
it is like a slap in the face.
And so I think I have thisdifferent understanding and
empathy for just moms ingeneral. And like how hard it
is, and being a little bit moresensitive to when I have
(56:40):
clients. If they're complainingor talking about their parents.
I'm like, well, there's thiswhole other side that we may not
have considered, right. Likethey're just a person trying to
do their best with what theyhave and what they learned and
like, they're not perfecteither. Yeah, shout out to all
the moms out there.
Dr. Katie Manganello (57:03):
Shout out to all the moms
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (57:06):
and the dance. Yes. All the present,
parents shout out to all ofthem. Present
Dr. Katie Manganello (57:12):
parents love that. I am so happy. I
mean, again, I could haveprobably talked to you about
this up for ever. But I reallyappreciate and acknowledge your
vulnerability in this because Ithink that as a therapist, and
you know, your own an owner ofyour practice, it can be hard to
(57:32):
you know, disclose some of thestruggles that you're
experiencing, for people to tohear. But I think that it's also
really powerful and the peopleappreciate that a lot. So, I
really, I really appreciate yourauthenticity and willingness to
open up today.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (57:49):
Thank you. I appreciate you asking and
being curious and giving me thespace to share. Excellent. So
for anyone who is interested inworking with Dr. Katie, you can
head over to our website healyour roots. wellness.com To
schedule a console. If youenjoyed this episode, please
(58:09):
like, share and comment. Andthanks so much for listening.
Thanks
Welcome back to Heal Your Roots Podcast.
For today's episode we have Dr.
Katie Mangan ello. Joining usagain, and some exciting news is
that Dr. Katie will be areoccurring guest co host with
Heal Your Roots Podcast.
Dr. Katie Manganello (00:14):
So there's postpartum OCD and there's
perinatal OCD. So OCD thatoccurs immediately after the
child is born is called thepostpartum, sad. And then OCD
that occurs during pregnancy iscalled perinatal, OCD. There's
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (00:30):
a lot of uncertainty. I think there's
a lot of uncertainty. And it'shard to know, which is the right
thing to do. And all the timethere is no right thing like I
know we talked about in adifferent episode, like there is
no right thing. There's just thebest thing under the
circumstances for you, Katie,I'm so excited to have you back
(00:51):
on and have you on for futureepisodes.
Dr. Katie Manganello (00:53):
I am so excited. I'm really looking
forward to it as well, I thinkwe'll have a lot of good topics
to cover.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (01:00):
So today's episode is going to be a
little bit different from ourusual structure. Usually, when
we have a therapist or mentalhealth practitioner on we kind
of interview them, get to knowthem, their background and
everything. But today, since weare the CO hosts to kind of set
the field, it'll just be us kindof having a conversation and
we're really gonna dive intopostpartum OCD anxiety, and what
(01:25):
it's like to be a new mom as anentrepreneur. So Katie will
actually be interviewing me theinterviewer has turned into the
interviewee. So this is going tobe a little bit different for
us. So I'm really excited to beasked some questions and share
some of my experiences with you,Katie and the rest of the
listeners.
Dr. Katie Manganello (01:43):
Yes, me too. I cannot wait. As somebody
who is not a mother, or really,you know, not yet in life. I'm
really excited to pick yourbrain a little bit about how
it's going for you, especiallyas a new mom, so I can't wait to
get into it. But yes, if wewould like to start out talking
about some OCD and thepostpartum and Perinatal realm,
(02:06):
I'd be happy to talk about that.
Kira Yakubov Plosha (02:08):
Absolutely.
Yeah. So Katie, I know in theother episodes, so you've been
on to other episodes so far withus. And every time I asked you
to share what is OCD for thelisteners, so if they haven't
listened before, if you can kindof share what that is, and then
in particular, postpartum OCD aswell. Yet,
Dr. Katie Manganello (02:28):
yes, so briefly, just typical OCD. It's,
it's, it's a disorder that is adoubting disorder. And it is
comprised of two parts, which isthe obsessions and the
compulsions. Obsessions are thecore fears or the intrusive
thoughts, images, of whatever itis, it's feeling very
(02:48):
distressing. Common themes wouldbe contamination, harm OCD. I
think the contamination is likeone of the most popular but
there's also religious OCD arescrupulosity. So there's lots of
different types, which I've kindof touched on in previous
episodes. So so that's kind ofthe theme with the obsessions.
(03:10):
So obsessions fears, thatcompulsions are things that
people are doing to try toalleviate that distress that
comes along with the intrusionsbut the more people engage in
compulsions, the moredistressing the disorder
becomes. The compulsions providea short term relief, but long
term distress. So commoncompulsions would be maybe
(03:33):
flipping light switches, orwashing hands, those types of
things that people more commonlyheard about. So anybody wants to
learn more about that, or othersubtypes, they can listen to
some of the other episodes, butas it relates to this topic, so
there's postpartum OCD, andthere's pairing natal CD. So OCD
(03:53):
that occurs immediately afterthe child is born is called the
postpartum OCD. And then OCDthat occurs during pregnancy is
called perinatal, OCD. They'repretty similar there, because
they're all surrounding thebaby. So another big thing to
know about OCD is it's alwaystargeting your values, and going
(04:15):
towards the things that youreally care about. So it makes
sense that new parents canexperience these things because,
you know, they're they're soexcited and happy to have a
baby, right? And so, there's alot of there's also a lot of
pressure to be like, I gottakeep this little baby alive,
right? There's a lot of fears, Ithink that come up and it's
(04:35):
normal to an extent for peopleto experience some of those
fears or stressors that comewith just having a baby. But
the, you know, postpartum orperinatal, OCD is what kind of
takes it to that next level. Alot of the obsessions would be
about the baby getting hurt, orcontaminated or loss. Also
(04:56):
unwanted sexual obsessions attimes a lot of the compulsions
related to this might involvechecking the baby checking baby
monitors excessively, mentalrituals seeking reassurance
about being a good parent. Otherthings too, could be avoiding of
(05:16):
the baby, if they're afraid ofharming the baby, one thing that
they might do could beavoidance, which can be really
problematic, right? Because thatcan turn into neglect if there's
not other people there to youknow, caretaking and help out,
and that the goal for the newparent is to never actually
neglect their baby, right? Like,I want to make that clear that
(05:36):
it's more so that they areafraid that they would
potentially harm the baby. So,you know, these things can show
up in different ways. But moreimportantly, the people who are
experiencing these fears, thefears almost never, you know,
come true in the turn in termsof feeling that they are
actually going to harm theirbaby, and then them actually
(05:58):
intentionally harming the baby.
Obviously, accidental harmhappens at any rate with being a
parent, right, to some extent,but in terms of fearing that
they're going to intentionallyharm their baby, it's, you know,
highly unlikely that that'sactually going to happen, the
more you engage in the treatmentfor it. Does that accurately
would you say that makes senseas a summary of what that might
(06:22):
look like?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (06:26):
Yeah, so I wanted to ask, actually,
because a lot of the things youmentioned, I think, are very
common that just come up ashaving a new child, like being a
new parent having a completelynew responsibility in life, of
making sure that this otherhuman being that's basically
helpless, relies on you to stayalive. So there's so much
(06:46):
responsibility and pressure,that what is kind of the
differentiator between like,what is kind of normal stress
and anxiety and concern versuscrossing that threshold of like,
okay, this is becomingobsessive, or this is a
compulsion, and this is nothealthy. And I need to seek help
for this.
Dr. Katie Manganello (07:06):
Right?
Yes, you're right. And this iswhere it can be a little bit
difficult, because these arenormal reactions in a lot of
ways. But there is kind of thatfine line where it's no longer
normal, like, if you areconsistently distress. So I
mean, somebody is probablychecking the baby monitor. Not
at all now some times beforethey fall asleep. Yeah, right.
(07:30):
Or if there are concerns of, youknow, the baby seemed more, they
caught a cold, so I'm going tobe checking it a little more
frequently than I typicallywould. Or they've been having
trouble sleeping. And so we werekeeping an extra eye on them,
right. But it's another thing ifthings seem to be going well
with the baby, we put the babydown, and we are constantly
(07:52):
checking their breathing andanalyzing, seeing their chest
going up and down, up and down.
For hours, right are for a veryextended period of time. i When
I'm usually explaining OCD, Iusually would explain it as it's
interfering with yourfunctioning. But there is a
(08:13):
level of being a new parent thatwhether it's OCD or not it it's
not quite interesting. You'regoing to have your functioning
interfered with regardless as anew parent, right. Yeah. So I
think a lot of it is also howdistressing it is for somebody.
Like I remember the first personthat I heard assess, that had
met for OCD with their baby wasthey were, it wouldn't be on
(08:40):
just like a lack of sleep,because you have to get up to
feed the baby. It was that like,Okay, now that the baby's
asleep, I don't get to go tosleep now. Because now I need to
watch the baby and make surethat nothing happens to them
while they're sleeping. And likewatching them in their crib. And
again, like checking to see thatthey're breathing or this one
person I know, I recall, theywere doing like, excessive, like
(09:02):
prayers around the baby. Likethey'd have to pray so many
times that certain prayer inorder for the baby to stay safe.
Things like that. They can alsoseem like maybe less. Those are
more common types of things thatpeople would be doing with a new
baby, right, like checking themonitor. Other things that maybe
wouldn't be as common thatpeople with OCD, postpartum OCD
(09:24):
might be struggling with isaround that harm of the baby. So
maybe excessively washing handsbefore picking the baby up so
that the baby doesn't get sick.
Or that going back to thatavoidance piece. Maybe they're
avoiding changing diapersbecause they're having
intrusive, unwanted intrusivethoughts of what if I molest the
baby while I'm changing theirdiaper? Or purposely saying oh,
(09:45):
I'm gonna let my partner carrythe baby down the steps because
I don't want to get on thefreight I'll drop the baby or
maybe I'll lose control andthrow the baby down the steps
right like so. Have you arepurposely avoiding those things
now can be normal for a thoughtlike that they're popping your
head, right? Maybe Maybe I'lltrip and fall and drop my baby,
(10:05):
which sounds very scary. But youthen kind of take a second back
and you're like, alright,strange thought we carry the
baby down the steps, versus It'sa rule in the house that I'm not
going to carry the baby down thesteps, my partner does that.
That's their responsibility. Sothose are some of some examples
where things might look a littlebit different, versus with being
(10:26):
OC versus other parentingchallenges that happen with any
new parent.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (10:36):
Yeah, I'm glad you were able to
explain that. Because as yousaid, each one for a lot of them
was like, Oh, I wish I knew thatbreathing nonstop. Oh, I have
these intrusive visuals of like,oh my god, what if I drop her if
when I trip, I'm super clumsy,right? So I'm like, Oh, my God,
I'm scared that I'm going todrop her. So I'm, like,
constantly watching where myfeet are going to make sure.
Right? Like, I don't want her toget sick. But it's, it sounds
(10:58):
like it's the excessive piece,right? Like, we all have a
little bit of that. And thenwe're able to transition out or
do something different. Versusit sounds like the person gets
stuck in this and it lasts forhours and days and however
Dr. Katie Manganello (11:11):
long.
Right? Right. And exactly, anddepending on how far they get
stuck. Like it can show up indifferent ways too. Because I
mean, again, it's kind of likeshowing up on a spectrum, right.
Like, on a typical, you know, ina typical couple, maybe he just
has a baby, like I'm sure thatthere is like a level of, you
know, you you make bicker morethan typical, or there's like,
(11:33):
you know, general parentingstruggle with your partner and
how that interferes in yourrelationship. Right. But it
could go to a whole nother levelof the OCD taking over where
they're like, I have to dealwith the baby 24/7 year I
cannot, you know, give mypartner any attention. Because
I'm so focused on the baby kindof thing, right? There's
(11:53):
obviously going to be a bit ofthat happening along that that
spectrum, right. But it's whenit becomes more extreme and
interfering with therelationship or in your life and
other ways. opposed to this is atypical New parenting type of
situation. That's tough. I thinkthat. So, Karen, I have another
(12:14):
episode coming up here, in, Iguess it would be the week after
this. I'll let them editwhenever that's going to come
out. But we have an upcomingepisode with a few of my
colleagues, Dr. Brown and Dr.
Bliss, they specialize inwomen's health. And so they will
(12:36):
be able to come on and talk morein depth about women's health.
How you know, postpartum anxietyand depression can show up
differently than the typicalkind of adjustment period. And
all those types of things. Theyalso know a lot about
infertility and things of thatnature and adjusting to
(12:59):
challenges as it relates tothose issues. So we will be able
to have a much more in depthconversation with them about
some of this stuff.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (13:08):
Yeah, so stay tuned for that. I think
that I mean, this is great todifferentiate, because I feel
like a lot of the information,like while I was pregnant
afterwards, was not commonknowledge, and not very clear.
And things that are normalized,or it's a stigma or you think I
should be doing this, I shouldbe feeling this way. And it's
very confusing and conflictinginformation online. Because you
(13:29):
know, doctors don't always sharea lot of this information or,
you know, if you don't take likea baby class alone or with your
partner, you may not know. So Ithink this is going to be really
beneficial for people ages tokind of normalize this
experience, but to be able totell the difference between what
is a common or normal I hateusing the word normal, but like
(13:50):
generally right expected, versusan unhealthy amount that is, you
know, getting into a differentterritory that this could be
obsessive compulsive disorder.
Dr. Katie Manganello (13:59):
Yes. For sure. As you were saying that I
was thinking to another prettybig marker of differentiating is
the level of guilt and shamethat is experienced, you know,
we always hear of like, momguilt, right? Like, there's some
of that that's going to show upagain, generally, but like, it
can become much more intensethat that really intense feeling
(14:21):
of shame and guilt that comesalong with it being OCD.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (14:25):
Yeah.
And I think it's tough to know,because, you know, a lot of
people are not in the field,right? They're not mental health
professionals or medicalprofessionals. So they may not
know what that threshold is. Andit could be a very subjective
experience of Well, yeah,everyone has mom guilt, or
everyone experiences thesethings. So this is probably
normal or I shouldn't beanxious. I should be worried.
Isn't that a sign of me caringand it being like a healthy
(14:48):
amount of worry, right? Likegrowing up my mom would say you
know, someone loves you abouthow much they worry about you.
Not healthy but you know likemen messages that we receive?
It's you don't really know whatthat threshold is. I'm curious
to know also, is this somethingthat shows up if someone never
had OCD or wasn't diagnosed withit before that it can kind of
(15:12):
start new as an onset afterbecoming a new parent? Or is
this more common if someone hasalready had OCD? And now this
the topic or the focus hasshifted? Yeah,
Dr. Katie Manganello (15:23):
that's actually a really good question.
So with the perinatal, or thepostpartum OCD, it seemed, from
what researches it seems toaffect about one to 2%, of
pregnant or postpartum women.
But it also shows up obviously,for people who, who have already
had OCD, and then symptoms canworsen. Also OCD likes, like
kind of like hot themes. So ifsomebody was maybe experiencing
(15:47):
contamination, OCD in the past,and they've gone through
treatment, they're better butnow they have a baby. Now, it
might be like, harm orcontamination towards the baby
type of thing. So yes, it theanswer is both, it can bring a
flare up or a new episode orexacerbate things with somebody
who has already had it. And itcan also tend to just, you know,
(16:08):
be increased for pregnant orpostpartum women. Also, another
thing that people don't talkabout at all I feel like, not
much is how this can happen forfathers too. I know some fathers
who experience anxiety aroundnot anxiety, not just anxiety,
like OCD around, you know, justthat increased responsibility of
(16:32):
their child and wanting to keepthem safe and same types of
behaviors showing up really?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (16:38):
Yeah, yeah, actually, when I was
taking that, like a baby class,which I highly recommend for
anyone who is pregnant orplanning to be pregnant, take a
baby class before you have thebaby. Very valuable. But I
learned in there, you know,postpartum for the partner who
may or may not be the father oranother, you know, depending on
the relationship structure isthat the partner can also have
(17:00):
postpartum depression, anxiety,OCD, who's not the birthing
parent, and how it's reallyimportant to also be aware and
look out for cues for that aswell. So I think we don't
necessarily it's not maybe it'scommon to think about the
partner, because the birthingparent is going through all of
these changes at once, that weforget that the supporting
partner also needs support, andis also having a huge life
(17:24):
transition for them to that
Dr. Katie Manganello (17:27):
it really is something that has is not
something that is talked toomuch about unless you like you
said, you go to a specific DBclass or, you know, I mean,
that's not even anything thatwas really showing up in my
training until I was seeingpeople and it was showing up and
I was, you know, yeah, ofcourse, we would treat it the
same way. But yeah, it is anuance, and I think it's sad for
(17:51):
those other partners, because itmight feel less valid for them
to experience those things. Butit's really not any less valid.
It's, it's still a hugetransition and a big shift in
responsibilities. So absolutely.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (18:08):
I think I should also want to make a
note that this also goes foradoptive parents to have a baby,
right? Like it's not yes,there's all these changes for
the mother after the hormonalimbalance, and all of these
things, and the partner but alsoif you're adopting a child, like
being a new parent is hardperiod. Regardless of what part
(18:28):
of that process you are, we're apart of.
Dr. Katie Manganello (18:31):
Yeah, definitely. Which this seems
like a good time for us to segueinto some of our questions for
you. What do you think?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (18:40):
Sure.
Yeah, you know, I noticed myselfbeing like, like, keep asking
questions. I keep trying to bethe interviewer. But yeah, go
for
Dr. Katie Manganello (18:48):
it. Yeah, let's talk, let's, you know,
switch the roles a little bit.
So I'm so excited to hear aboutwhat it's like having a new
baby, I'm kind of at the age orthe realm in my life, where my
friends are just starting tohave babies or get pregnant. So
I actually don't have reallymany people in my life that I'm
(19:10):
really close to that do havebabies yet. So, but some are
coming up. So I am like, readyto get all the details. And I
don't know what this like thisis like because everybody says
how hard it is and how you don'tsleep, and how there's a lot of
body changes. But I feel likethere's so much more to it that
people just don't talk about. SoI can't wait to dig in. I think
(19:31):
one of the first things I wantto ask you about is just in the
realms of in the realm of beinga professional. So on one
aspect, you're a business owner,right? And then on the other you
are a therapist, so I'm reallycurious for you what some of the
challenges have been. Let'sstart out with maybe like the
(19:52):
Business Route, you know,because there's a lot of places
if you work at a hospital forexample, if you work In a
hospital, you already have, youknow, benefits through your job
and how you have an allottedpostpartum time that you can
take off. Right? So withouthaving a job where it's like
(20:13):
that, where you kind of make therules, right? How did you work
through the whole maternityleave? And in managing the
business?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (20:26):
Yeah.
So part of this was actually alot of planning before I even
got pregnant or was thinkingabout starting to try to get
pregnant. Being in privatepractice, especially being a
private practice owner, I think,has a lot of benefits and
privileges, and that I cancreate my schedule, I can, you
know, I'm in control of my job,who I see when I see them, you
(20:47):
know, the structure who I workwith everything like that. So I
already had in my mind that,okay, I'm in private practice, I
don't have a built in maternityleave, right? Like, if, if I
don't see clients, I don't getpaid, right. Like, that's kind
of how it goes for a lot oftherapists who might be in
private practice, right? There'spros and cons to this a lot of
freedom, less burnout, but thenalso not as much of the
(21:11):
financial stability sometimesdepending on your caseload,
right. And if you're not seeingclients, you're not getting
paid, like I said, so I reallyhad this in mind to plan for,
okay, I want to own a privatepractice a group practice,
because if I'm not going to beworking, there has to be some
other kind of income coming in.
So having other therapists inplace. And really, I mean, this
(21:33):
was built out very long, priorto this, right, is thinking
about having other income. Sohaving other therapists work
under me having other whetherit's a course that we're working
on right now, publishing a book,having other streams of income
and thinking about that ahead oftime. And creating that really
made a huge difference. Justknowing that I always knew I
(21:55):
wanted to be a mother, and I'min private practice, I'm a
therapist, so and I don't wantto work in an agency. So how am
I going to align all of thesethings, so a lot of planning
took place. Also, then being inthe practice, having the group
practice already, and beingsomeone who did a lot of the
administrative work and wears amillion hats in the business. I
(22:17):
knew that Okay, once I have mybaby, I'm not going to be able
to answer your phone calls forconsultations. I'm not gonna be
able to do all of these things.
Like I don't know what myschedule, I know that I'm not
going to have a predictableschedule. And you can't run a
business like that. Right,right. So we made sure that we
brought in employees that wouldtake those roles. And that
happened way in advance. Andthat was really hard to release
(22:39):
that control of being like, thisis my baby, like, I've been
running this, like, I know howeverything is supposed to
supposed to go how I want it togo, right. And being able to
hand that off to somebody wasreally tough. But we found such
an incredible person, Serena,who's our intake coordinator,
that it has made the transitionso much smoother and easier and
(23:01):
like a huge relief and weightoff my shoulders. That I thought
like, why didn't I do thatsooner? Like what was i Holding
on to, but that has been huge.
And instrumental is likecreating a team. Right? Like
they say like, it takes avillage. It. It's not like it's
a cliche, but it's really true.
It takes a village to run apractice takes a village to
(23:22):
raise a child to do anythingreally big. You need a team of
people that you can trust inplace that do good work. So that
was part of the that process.
And that was a long windedanswer. No,
Dr. Katie Manganello (23:36):
that was a great answer. And those are all
things that I have not orwouldn't necessarily just think
of off the top of my head, likeyou talking about that whole
aspect of having to really dropsome control and like, hand over
responsibilities of your baby,right? And I'm sure you're gonna
have to do that with your, youractual baby. Right. You know
(23:59):
what, that's something I think alot of people struggle with is
actually, so there is a littleplug for Bravo. I don't know if
any of our listeners also watchBravo. But there's the show
Vanderpump Rules. Were one ofthe people on there. Her name
Sheena, she actually has OCD,and was the end. She just had a
(24:22):
baby a couple years ago. And oneof her things that shows up is
that she really struggles withallowing other people to watch
her baby. And so it was reallyinterfering with her
relationship and with herability to work and go do things
without letting the BBB witheither her mom or her sister or
(24:44):
somebody who is a close familymember. And that was a huge
strain. So if anybody watchesthat that is something where
it's a really good example ofwhat this can look like, right?
So I'm sure that that's going tobe a challenge not just with
work but also No, little baby.
Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (25:03):
I mean, I'm fortunate enough to have my
mom who lives close by to watchher pretty regularly for, you
know, my mother in law to watchher. It was like friends in town
and things like that I have alot of people in my life that I
trust, I don't typically havepeople in my life that I don't
trust. So I think that kind ofeliminates some of that, knowing
that these are all people that Ican rely on that I trust that
(25:26):
we'll be able to take care ofher that would never do anything
intentionally to harm her.
Right? So that takes a lot ofstress off of me and pressure.
And having that peace of mind.
I'm like, take her. Like, if youwant to hang out with her hang
out with her, I'm gonna go takea nap or I'm gonna go do
something else. Because I that'sthat peace of mind. I don't know
(25:48):
what it's going to be like, ifwhen we're going to need to have
someone who is not an immediatefamily member or a close friend.
Right? That's gonna be tough,because I don't know you. And I
don't know what your intentionsare. And you know, there's a
whole slew of things. It's goingto take a lot of time to trust
somebody to watch this littlehuman. That's yours. So yeah, I
(26:08):
mean, I can't I don't have OCD.
But I can imagine that beingexacerbated, because that is
really scary to think about
Dr. Katie Manganello (26:15):
it is.
Yeah, definitely. So youexplained a lot of how you had
to do so much planning for avery long time to make these
changes within the businesswithin your practice. Right. But
how do you feel like it'simpacted you specifically around
(26:35):
being a therapist? So like your,your main role, right?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (26:42):
Yeah, so that was interesting. Because
we are fully telehealth, a lotof my clients didn't know until
I told them until I chose totell them, right, because if
we're in person, it's going tobe hard. It's a high that right.
So I had a little bit morecontrol in when and how I was
going to tell my clients, Iwaited until I think it was like
(27:05):
maybe four months before I wasdue. And I think that was a good
time, because it was allowingthem to know, okay, like in four
months, which is a solid amountof time to I think mentally
prepare that, you know, mytherapist is gonna go on leave.
If I need to make anyadjustments, like the things
that we're working on, we cankind of adjust or continue. Like
that was a good amount of timeto kind of therapeutically work
(27:27):
through that with the client,and give them space to process
if they needed to. Luckily, allmy clients were like, so happy
for me and excited. And just,you know, wishing me all these
wonderful things, and then wentright back into what was going
on with them. So it wasn't ahuge disruption. I also didn't
have a huge caseload at thatpoint, because I have the group
(27:49):
practice. So a lot of the othertherapists have a bigger
caseload than me, I was reallyjust seeing clients that I've
seen for a really long time justmaintaining, I wasn't taking any
new clients on after a certainpoint, because I wanted to be
mindful and respectful that, youknow, if you're going to be
opening up to me, and we'regoing to be doing deep work, and
I'm going to leave in a coupleof months. That's not really
fair. Right? So I made sure toanyone who was reaching out to
(28:13):
let them know, you know, I'm notaccepting new clients. And if
they push, like, listen, like,I'm going to be on maternity
leave soon. So I really likeit's going to be a disservice to
you. So I'm not going to be ableto see you. So that part wasn't
too bad. I think a really hardpart of the process of being
pregnant and a therapist is thefirst few months of just being
(28:34):
so nauseous, like that wasrough, because they call it
morning sickness. But it is notmorning sickness, it is all day
sickness. Like I don't know whythey came up with in the
morning, because it's not, it'snot just in the morning, I don't
know about other people'sexperiences, mine was up to no
matter what time of the day itwas, it could happen at any
(28:54):
point. And working in privatepractice was huge. Because I
thought to myself, like I reallydon't know how I would have been
able to handle this if I workedin an agency or a hospital or a
setting where I can't a workfrom home and be just call out.
Like he was. I'm very gratefuland fortunate that I was able to
(29:15):
work from home and set my lifeup in that way. Because man that
was really tough. So like i Myheart goes out to a lot of women
who don't have that, and eitherhad to push through or call out
or maybe lose their jobs orjust, you know, figure out a way
to move through that because itis debilitating, to just be
nauseous all day long orthrowing up or being in bed like
(29:39):
your mind is elsewhere. And astherapists you know, like we
need to be present we need to beemotionally and mentally present
for our clients and because Iwas able to like shift my
schedule around. I was able tokind of mitigate some of that
and let my clients know likehey, like I'm not feeling too
well like you know, touchingbase with them to keep them in
(30:00):
formed what was going on?
Dr. Katie Manganello (30:03):
Well, I definitely would not think about
that aspect of being nauseous.
And like working with that.
Yeah. Because I've definitelyheard of people saying that,
Yes, you. It's not just in themorning, right. But the ability
to actually have to be sick ifyou are sick, right? Can't just
be I mean, you could I mean,things can happen, but it's
(30:25):
tough if you're mid sessiontalking to somebody and you're
like, you're right. Yeah, Imean, they're gonna have that's,
I guess, but yeah, I mean, ifyou can plan for that, and you
have the ability to kind of movethings around. And sure, that
makes that a lot moremanageable. Yeah.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (30:41):
I mean, imagine being hungover. Right,
like, think about the worsthangover hangover you've ever
had for like, a month. And nowyou have to do therapy? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like that.
And then just eating likesleeves of crackers, just
saltines? Because you know, sowe won't go into the details.
(31:03):
TMI, but, yeah, the beginningstage is really tough.
Especially being a therapist,because you need, you know, this
emotional capacity that getsreally dwindled away, because
you just don't feel well, for areally prolonged period of time.
Dr. Katie Manganello (31:17):
Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up.
Because one of my otherquestions I was thinking a lot
about is how your body changesjust throughout the whole
process. So you just alreadystarted by saying a little bit
about what was challengingearlier on in the pregnancy. But
can you say anything else aboutjust how your body changed? And
(31:40):
if there were any positiveaspects or, you know, negative
aspects, or just kind of neutralthings that just changed that
maybe you weren't expecting?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (31:48):
Yeah, I mean, so many things. with body
image, it's really crazy. I'mreally, really trying to be
mindful and intentional, of howI speak about myself physically,
and how I feel about myself,because I have a daughter, and I
really don't want to pass down.
Like negative body image issuesand beliefs and narratives. It's
(32:09):
really hard, right? Like, youknow, I've done a lot of work
myself, but still, like, it's soingrained the way that we look
and how that kind of ties to ourwork, and how we feel about
ourselves and how we feel likeothers perceive us. And there
was a point, like, in thebeginning of the pregnancy,
where I didn't look pregnantjust yet, but I definitely
gained weight. And, you know, itcould have been like, Oh, she
(32:33):
just had like, a lot of burritosthese past few weeks, like
what's going on? You know, like,no one is going to ask you if
you're pregnant, but I felt likepeople knew I was gaining
weight. And like, there was thisreally weird, you know, like,
internally like feeling selfconscious and wanting to be
like, I'm pregnant. Like, that'swhy I look this way. But like
not doing that, because that'sstrange and weird. And you know,
(32:54):
and then once I finally hadlike, my belly pop, I kind of
felt relieved. And I was like,embracing it. I'm like, Oh,
everybody knows now. Like, it'sokay. You can talk to me about
it. Like, yeah, of course, I'mgonna look big. I have a baby
growing inside of me. Like, it'sfine. Like, a lot of some of
those insecurities kind of wentaway because I had this reason
or like,
Dr. Katie Manganello (33:15):
I'm not allowed to be bigger now,
because I have a reason I have ababy. Not just because my weight
is fluctuating kind
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (33:22):
of Yes.
Yeah, that was really big. Andthen just finding things that
fit like, there are not a lot ofstores or places that sell
flattering or cute maternityclothes. I mean, yes, if you
want to just throw a bag on you,and call it a day you can. But
you know, you still want to lookcute. So they had a really hard
(33:43):
time finding things that wouldlike fit me and make me feel
good and make me feel soattractive. Right? So even just
going through a process of likeshopping, and then trying on
clothes, which is likephysically exhausting. I was I
don't even feel like taking mypants on and off. Yeah, I bet is
tiring. But yeah, like so manythings changed. My feet were
inflamed. My hands were swollen.
(34:06):
It's it really is like thisroller coaster where like the
beginning with like, myexperience person. Everyone is
different. Right? Some peoplelove pregnancy. And they enjoy
it. And there's not any of thesehiccups or they don't like
experience negative aspects ofit and like, kudos to them. Like
that's phenomenal. Like one ofthe lucky ones. Right? Like,
(34:26):
love that for you was not myexperience. Yeah, it's like the
beginning as you're nauseous youfeel horrible. second trimester
is pretty good. You're gettingyour energy back, your belly
showing. So it's exciting,right? Like you're able to like
eat again and do all of thesethings. And then third trimester
creeps around and it's likeokay, like now I'm getting
(34:47):
heavy. Now my back hurts. Now Ihave restless leg syndrome that
I never had or knew what thehell that was and very
unsettling experience. It's hardto sleep. You have to like roll
from one side to the other toget up every single time, like I
really took advantage of thefact of just being able to like
move in a very natural way.
Because every, every movement,it's very intentional, like how
(35:12):
you're getting up and whereyou're moving. And is it worth
it to go over there? For all theeffort that I have to put into
doing this?
Dr. Katie Manganello (35:22):
Yeah, little things you would not even
think about at all.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (35:27):
Yeah.
And I think a big piece of thephysical part is needing so much
help. I needed so much helpphysically to get things right
or couldn't bend over a certainpoint, you really have to rely
on a lot of people around you.
Which, you know, depends on yourpersonality can be either, you
know, some people welcome thatother people, you know, it's
really hard. If you have a hardtime asking for help or
(35:48):
receiving help. It's going to betough, like I you know, there
was, especially after thepregnancy, like, I needed a lot
of help physically, and like,that really weighed on me
emotionally. And just like how Ican't do a lot of these simple
tasks. I felt like a burden. Ifelt, you know, useless, right?
Like, I really did, like, Ican't do anything, I have to
(36:09):
take care of a baby. I'm healingbut someone else has to take
care of me, like, Oh, my God,like, this is a horrible, it
felt like a horrible experience.
Like I need someone constantlyto help me. And it felt very, I
felt very helpless and hopeless.
And for a little bit in thebeginning, I think like, as I
spoke to a lot of new moms likeoh, yeah, like, there was a lot
(36:29):
of crying in the shower in thefirst two months. I'm like, Wow,
I did too. Like nobody talksabout that prior. It's, you
know, there's a lot of sadnessthat kind of comes through like
this grieving and transition.
It's, it's a lot to carry in thebeginning.
Dr. Katie Manganello (36:44):
Right. And I think another big part of the
beginning that I foresee beingincredibly difficult for me as a
person, is the keeping it asecret, like you can't really,
you're not supposed to like, orit's not, I don't know, like you
just everybody says what youdon't tell people for what the
first how please be okay. Sothat's a long time to keep a
(37:08):
really, really, really big lifechange happening. And that also,
I can understand, I guess, therationale for why that is the
way it is. But also, it's like,it has to feel isolating to an
extent.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (37:25):
Yeah, and you know, a lot of the time
people say that is because thelikelihood of miscarriage is so
high in the beginning. Which,you know, it's kind of sometimes
it feels counterintuitive,right? Like, if I have this big
thing going on with my body. Andnow like, if I plan this, and
I'm excited about thispregnancy, right, and I want to
(37:46):
share this with everybody. Andthen, you know, I haven't if
this person has a miscarriage,and nobody knows you're pregnant
to begin with, and now you'regrieving. It's a you have to
tell people, so they're like,Oh, my God, and now you have to
tell them the next thing thathappened. So it's like this
emotional roller coaster where Ifeel like actually might be more
helpful if the closest people toyou knew. So that right? God
(38:10):
forbid, if that happens to you,which is very common, that you
have that support that you need.
Right. It's it's almost like asuperstitious thing that we've
kind of accepted as the norm isthat, you know, don't share this
because if it doesn't work out,not everybody knows about it.
Like that's kind of weird,right?
Dr. Katie Manganello (38:27):
Exactly.
It's very much that whole thingin society of don't share your
discomfort or don't share thatyou're right. Don't make other
people uncomfortable with yourdiscomfort. Meanwhile, this is a
huge, huge, I mean, having amiscarriage I cannot even
imagine like I and it's commonto right. So it does feel like
there should be more supportaround that.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (38:51):
Yeah, I mean, they say within the first
as the first 12 months or 12weeks, right is when it's the
most likely I think it's like25% chance for any pregnancy. I
don't know if that's exactly,but it's pretty high up there.
Like it's, I mean, almost everyperson in my life who has been
pregnant or you know, somethingalong the lines, like there's a
(39:12):
lot of women in my life that Iknow, that have had experienced
a miscarriage. Yeah, and yeah,it's not. It's not that, like
it's not talked about it sayscommon, right. And I think that
if people recognize like, itdoesn't mean there's something
wrong with you or that you didsomething to cause this. Like,
it's just like, biologicallylike, this is what happens like
these are the statistics of whatcan happen. Like we're literally
(39:35):
growing a human inside of us.
It's not always going to workout unfortunately. So like
having that support ahead oftime, I think is actually really
important. Like we told, we tolda couple people like the day we
got the pregnancy test that itsaid pregnant like I can't keep
that secret. I feel like that'show I can keep other people's
secrets but my own secrets. I'mlike, I want to tell everybody
Dr. Katie Manganello (39:58):
say that But yeah, yeah, I totally hear
you on that. Well, so those werea lot of the changes that were
kind of happening for you whileyou were pregnant. But what's it
been like? Since you've had yourbaby? Do you want to talk a
little louder? Sure.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (40:18):
So do you mean in terms of like,
physically or just like all ofit?
Dr. Katie Manganello (40:22):
So I am curious physically, for sure.
But I, I do also want you to beable to just kind of talk about
the fun stuff with her and likebeing able to see her and like,
learn about her personality asshe's growing and all of that.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (40:37):
Yeah.
So it's, you know, it's, it's areal roller coaster. Like when
people say, Oh, it's reallyhard. You know, I feel like
people who are not parents, andwe did this to you like this
hubris, like, Oh, it can't bethat hard, or like everybody's
doing it. Like we all know,we'll be able to figure it out
better. You get humbled realquick. It is as hard as people
say, and even harder. And it'snot like, the hard thing is that
(41:02):
you are so sleep deprived. Andyou're so sleep deprived, like
you can't function, right, likeyou don't have time or energy to
do anything. Besides make surethat this baby is alive, fed
changed and safe, right? Likeyou don't really have you don't
hear about sleeping much youdon't have time to eat, you
(41:22):
don't have time to clean thehouse like or clean yourself.
Like, there's all these thingsthat kind of go out the window,
especially in the verybeginning. So everything is
focused on this baby. And all ofthese new responsibilities that
don't go away, are there. So ifyou're someone who is already
anxious, this is going to takeit up a notch. Like I'm normally
(41:43):
in a kind of an anxious person.
I've worked on it a lotthroughout my life at coping
mechanisms. But guess what allthose coping mechanisms go out
the window, because I don't havetime to do them. So it was
really tough. In the beginning,I'd say the first first two
months, but mostly like thefirst couple of weeks were
(42:04):
brutal, it was really justtrying to survive. And I have to
say that, like I'm very, veryfortunate and blessed to have a
partner who is in it with me24/7 throughout all of it, and
he works from home with me,right? Like, that's because we
intentionally made our life thatway. But, you know, having
someone to like, you know, tagteam of okay, like, I'm gonna
(42:24):
lose my shit, can you come inand take your turn, and then
vice versa, and like doing allthe things together, and knowing
I can trust him, and he's thereto support me like emotionally,
mentally, physically, like, allof it. Especially during those
like fluctuating hormones in thebeginning where like, you just
are grieving your old self. Likeyou're a completely new person.
(42:47):
Now, this new role, your bodydoesn't feel like yours anymore.
You're healing from childbirth,whether it's vaginal, or, like
this area, and Ryan, like all ofthese changes, and having a
partner who has your back and islike, reassuring you and
supporting you is so huge andimportant that you give a shout
out to Iran like thank you forhelping me so much. And I found
(43:10):
a mommy group in myneighborhood. That has been
awesome, huge. Yeah, like beingable to go every Friday to this
group. They like sit with otherwomen who are moms and talk
about this stuff and supporteach other. A lot of them are
business owners to like havingthat community, I think has been
instrumental in like, keeping mesane for my mental health, for
(43:31):
sure. And I think now that she'slike, you know, there's a little
bit of a pattern now aggravate,she's sleeping, we know when
she's going to sleep for howlong kind of when she needs to
eat like we're picking up on hernow. And when she smiled for the
first time, like in response tous, My heart melted like that's
when I was like, Oh, this is allworth it now. That was a game
(43:56):
changer. For sure. I was seeingher smile in response to us.
Gosh, that is so cute. Yeah,she's a doll and like, you know,
you can see her a littlepersonality now like when she
laughs is certain things arelike, you know, she her reflexes
are just crazy. Like, I'm reallyhighly sensitive person, like,
sensory wise, and I think thatshe, I mean, she's kind of like
(44:16):
that, too. Like, she reactsreally well to things. And it's
just like fun to watch her groweach week is like something
different seriously, like, she'sgaining weight or her hair color
is changing. Her eyes arechanging. She's responding to
things. It's it's reallybeautiful to watch that part and
think about like, Who is shegoing to grow into like this
little human that you know, mypartner and I are molding to be
(44:38):
a good person, like, what is shegoing to be like in a couple
years is really cool to thinkabout? Yeah,
Dr. Katie Manganello (44:45):
that really is so cool to think
about. And you know what else isjust so interesting about this
is I bet we could have this sameconversation, like every week or
every month and all of youranswers could be different or
Right. Yeah, like your answer ifI asked you right now, because
I'm finding myself going to belike, like the most challenging
thing, what's the most rewardingthing. But I think that's so
(45:08):
subjective to the phase thatyou're just in right now, which
just like, talk aboutmindfulness being important. I
feel like as a parent, that'ssomething you have to like, soak
in. Yeah,
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (45:18):
I mean, being in these mommy groups, and
like, the moms are likedifferent stages with their
kids, right? Like, I have theyoungest, I showed up like two
and a half weeks postpartumpeople, like how are you even
here? I'm like, I don't know,I'm, I'm a zombie, I don't know.
But seriously, and like theother moms, they have babies who
are like eight months, who'sthree years old? 10 1218. It's
(45:41):
like a wide range, which isreally cool. And the common
theme is that every stage iseasy and hard. It's just
different, right? Like, what'shard about this stage will make
the next stage easy. But thenthat stage has its own
challenges. So really just likebeing in the moment, like, she's
never going to be this ageagain. And she's never going to
(46:02):
do the things that she's doingnow. So it's kind of like it's
two sides of the same coin, justembracing it. Right. And like, I
think that really definesunconditional love. Right? Like,
all of the neg not, I mean,there are a lot of the negative
things that come with this.
There's all these positiveaspects, and just challenges
that it's like, wow, like, I'mgrowing and learning as a person
(46:24):
while I watch her grow and learnto be a little human being and
like, she's realizing she hashands. Like, you know, like,
she's got feet, she's usingthem. And it's like seeing life,
from the beginning as like thisage is really fascinating. So I
really like we try to be aspresent as we can. I mean,
obviously, sometimes it's reallyhard to do that, because we're
(46:46):
just like in the thick of it.
But I think that that's good.
Like the common theme that I'mhearing for everybody else is,
it's it's easy and hard just indifferent ways. Like it doesn't
actually ever get easier. Thisstage gets easier because you
don't have it anymore.
Dr. Katie Manganello (47:02):
What would you say up until this point has
been the most challenging, orlike the most surprising. The
most
Kira Yakubov Plosh (47:09):
challenging, I really think is the sleep
deprivation is just like, like,you know, when you go to the
airport, there's this jokes,like when you go to the airport,
it can be at any time of the dayand like you'll get a mimosa
because times not real. Right?
Like, right? Yeah, it kind offelt like that, like, especially
in the beginning, like, itdoesn't even matter. Like if
it's day or night because I'mdoing the same thing every hour
and a half to two hours thatlike time is a fake. It's just a
(47:32):
construct. Like, it's not real,like we were kind of like losing
it. Like this is you're notsleeping and it's so hard to
function and like control youremotions or your thoughts or to
do anything when you don't havesleep. I think I was surprised
that how not how little sleep Iwas gonna give like how much it
(47:53):
was going to impact me. BecauseI was like, oh, like, you know,
I've had all nighters, and I've,you know, done this and blah,
blah, blah, but like, it's sodifferent. Because, you know, if
you're a procrastinator, you'rejust like, Oh, I'll put this off
sale tomorrow, like you justcan't, because guess what, it's
gonna start over in two hours.
Again, it's like GroundhogGroundhogs Day, a little bit. In
(48:15):
the beginning. I don't want toscare people. But I think those
first two months are reallybrutal, but then pass that it
definitely gets like easier,right? Like, you know, the
patterns, they sleep a littlebit longer. There's more gaps
between when they're eating,they're showing their
personality, right. Like, thebeginning is just like a shit
show. And you Trump I mean, meand Ron trauma bonded for sure.
(48:36):
Like, I think it eitherstrengthens your relationship or
can tear it apart. Yeah, I couldtotally say that. That was the
most surprising thing,especially to
Dr. Katie Manganello (48:46):
when you're saying like, the first in
the beginning of being reallydifficult. I'm sure that it's
also just hard to navigate. Hey,products, there are what
products you're supposed to do,then there's a whole I mean, if
we even started about talkingabout breastfeeding, that would
be like a whole episode. I feellike it's like, do you do you
not do you do both? Like, justfiguring all of those things out
(49:09):
on top of it, I'm sure is reallychallenging.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (49:12):
Yeah, I mean, so much stress and anxiety
and just like analysis paralysiscomes through because there are
so many products in the marketand like, do I even need this?
Like, you know, especially whenyou're going through like your
baby shower guestlist or notguestlist the registry? Yeah,
gift registry, right. Like, Istill lose my mind. Like Mom
(49:33):
Brain is very real, by the way.
And, like knowing like, whatshould I be doing? is so tough,
like, even as a therapist, Iknow that like you shouldn't
should, right like even withinthat you everyone is different.
It's always gonna look you know,depending on the person the
circumstances, it's only basedon someone else's opinion. You
know, but if you're a newparent, like you really don't
(49:55):
know like, you can read all thebooks and you get all this
unsolicited. buys from people,but it's really just about
paying attention to like whatworks for you, your family, your
baby and your circumstances,which is going to change from
person and family to family.
Right. So like breastfeeding, wecan talk about that for a whole
hour. Like, we don't have enoughtime for that. But like, that
(50:17):
was really challenging to, like,Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give
this a try. If my body will, youknow, produce and, you know,
this is what we've been, youknow, made for the beginning of
time to do my body has been, youknow, constructed in this way,
like, I'm going to try to do it.
And, you know, luckily, shelatched right away. But you
know, am I produce the anxietyis, am I producing enough? How
much is she getting? Is itenough? What should I be eating?
(50:40):
I haven't eaten enough, I'mdehydrated. I'm not sleeping,
like, is she? Okay? Why is shecrying? It's just like, so many
spiraling thoughts around justfeeding the baby. And then it's
starting all over again. And inan hour.
Dr. Katie Manganello (50:56):
Yeah, and I know that people put like, a
lot of pressure on themselvesto, to, for it to, for you to be
able to do it. Right.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (51:03):
Yeah, like at the hospital, they
asked, like, are you going tobreastfeed are gonna do formula?
And I was like, I don't know,like, maybe can I do both? Like,
I want to do both. And that'swhat we've been doing is both
right, like I breastfeed I pumpand I give formula, depending on
what's going on thecircumstances, her like the
stage in life, like, do I havetaught, like, there's all of
these factors that like, thereis this message and even as a
(51:26):
therapy, like, it's so hard,because as therapists like, we
know, a lot of stuff likecognitively we get it, but we're
still humans are still emotionalbeings that like, are influenced
by the people around us. Andit's like, well, I really want
to stop breastfeeding. When Ifeel really guilty about that.
You know, and like a lot ofshame, like I should be able to
(51:47):
do it. If I can do it, then youknow, I should do it. And
there's people who can't do itthat wish they could, or the
bonding or, you know, what isthis gonna do to my baby? Or,
you know, like, there's allthese thoughts that you're just
there's a lot of uncertainty, Ithink there's a lot of
uncertainty. And it's hard toknow, which is the right thing
to do. And all the time there isno right thing, like I know, we
(52:09):
talked about in a differentepisode, like there is no right
thing. There's just the bestthing under the circumstances
for you.
Dr. Katie Manganello (52:17):
Right. And I mean, no wonder, this subtype
of OCD exists, right. Talk aboutuncertainty. I mean, you'll do a
CD. Right. So yeah, of course,it's gonna be scary, right?
Like, it's a lot. Yeah. So Imean, I think we've obviously
touched on a lot of challenges.
And obviously, I'm sure there'sso many more, but to kind of
like, tie a nice little bow onwhat we've been discussing, what
(52:39):
do you feel like has been thebest part of being a new mom?
And what are you most excitedabout for your future with her?
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (52:50):
I think the best part of this is a
couple of things is, I reallygot to see how strong I am. I
think a lot of the time, mylife, I've you know, been told
or told myself, like, Oh, I'mkind of like physically weak, or
I'm very emotional andsensitive, and I can't handle a
lot of things. And you know,through this process, I've
(53:11):
realized them a lot strongerthan I give myself credit for.
And that I can show up and dowhat I have to do when it really
counts. And I think that hasbeen a huge difference in like
how I view myself and the way oflike, resilience has definitely
been different. And I thinkanother great part is
relationally, like, me and mypartner being a lot stronger,
(53:34):
like going through thistogether. And like, even when
it's crazy, like finding thehumor in it, like, you know, she
pooped five times in a row andhe changed her diaper five
times, and six times she likeshe got it on him and like we
just started crying, laughinglike, just trying to find the
humor in some of this and doingit together as a team, I think
(53:55):
has been really great. And likewatching him be a dad and like,
watching how sweet and cute thatis, you know that he's holding
her and talking to her and thenlike, we're buying these little
books, like he's got a wholescience set of like astrophysics
for baby is like just like sillythings and like, spending time
with her. I think the best partis in the morning when we wake
(54:17):
up and she opens her eyes andsees us she smiles like She
giggles and like it's so it's sosweet to see that that it's like
okay, even if I didn't getsleep, like it's such a great
way to wake up. It's like seethis little beautiful smile back
at you and like, it's it's love,right? Like, no one is telling
her like, You should do this tomake mom feel better like,
right. It's innocent. It'sreally innocent and sweet and a
(54:40):
lot of like loving emotions. SoI think that the best part of
this for me has been like,witnessing and being aware of
like all the relational piecesof how this ties in and feeling
more closer and connected tothem.
Dr. Katie Manganello (54:53):
Yeah. Do you feel I know. So that was
gonna be my last question, butone more. How do you feel like
now Let your Aman that it'sgoing to change you as a
therapist as it relates toempathy and like other parents
and not because I'm sure it hasto be a totally different
perspective.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (55:10):
Yeah, I mean, it's it goes from being
able to like, cognitively thinkabout something rationally to
just like, I like in thetrenches like you can really
relate Right? Like when we gothrough something, we have a
client that goes throughsomething similar, like it's
just a different level ofrelatability. And like the
nuances, right? Like, it's thenuances you don't notice, think
(55:32):
about because you weren't in it.
And just knowing these littlepieces, it's like, it just like
takes it to the next like, Iknow the difference being like
this pump to this pump, becauseof how it makes my boobs feel
right. Like, I would never thinkof that or like, it takes so
long to leave the house. I usedto be like, why are people
always late with kids? Like, whydon't they just leave an hour
earlier? Like, you silly, sillyperson. Good idea. Yeah. And
(55:55):
like, I think we're really, interms of empathy as a therapist,
but also just as a person, like,Man, I should apologize to my
mom. Like the amount of wealways joke like in the Jewish
culture, God is Jewish guilt.
(56:16):
But like, seriously, like theamount of things that you go
through the sacrifices that youmake in your body and in your
life, where this human that youlove, for them to not appreciate
it is like a slap in the face.
And so I think I have thisdifferent understanding and
empathy for just moms ingeneral. And like how hard it
is, and being a little bit moresensitive to when I have
(56:40):
clients. If they're complainingor talking about their parents.
I'm like, well, there's thiswhole other side that we may not
have considered, right. Likethey're just a person trying to
do their best with what theyhave and what they learned and
like, they're not perfecteither. Yeah, shout out to all
the moms out there.
Dr. Katie Manganello (57:03):
Shout out to all the moms
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (57:06):
and the dance. Yes. All the present,
parents shout out to all ofthem. Present
Dr. Katie Manganello (57:12):
parents love that. I am so happy. I
mean, again, I could haveprobably talked to you about
this up for ever. But I reallyappreciate and acknowledge your
vulnerability in this because Ithink that as a therapist, and
you know, your own an owner ofyour practice, it can be hard to
(57:32):
you know, disclose some of thestruggles that you're
experiencing, for people to tohear. But I think that it's also
really powerful and the peopleappreciate that a lot. So, I
really, I really appreciate yourauthenticity and willingness to
open up today.
Kira Yakubov Ploshansky (57:49):
Thank you. I appreciate you asking and
being curious and giving me thespace to share. Excellent. So
for anyone who is interested inworking with Dr. Katie, you can
head over to our website healyour roots. wellness.com To
schedule a console. If youenjoyed this episode, please
(58:09):
like, share and comment. Andthanks so much for listening.
Thanks
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