May 24, 2023 • 43 mins
In this episode of the Heal Your Roots podcast, host Kira Yakubov, LMFT sits down with Dr. Michele Finneran to discuss the complex issue of domestic abuse. Dr. Finneran delves into the psychology behind this pervasive problem, discussing the different types of domestic abuse and the common theme of powerlessness that victims often feel.
She also explores the connection between Stockholm Syndrome and domestic violence, and offers insights into the importance of nurturing mother-daughter relationships as a key factor in healing from trauma.
Dr. Finneran shares her expertise on how to break the cycle of trauma bonding, and explains the three-step approach to therapy for domestic violence survivors. She offers advice on setting boundaries for self-care and emphasizes the importance of seeking help and emotional support. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand domestic abuse and its effects, and offers valuable insights and resources for those looking to heal and move forward.
Check out the rest of the Heal Your Roots Podcast episodes at our website.
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Michele Finneran (00:00):
psychological abuse starts to take place
(00:02):
first, and then it graduallysystemically builds on top of
each other, ridiculing,threatening, put downs, name
calling. All these things areconducive to what verbal abuses
and mental abuses
Kira Yakubov (00:25):
Hi, I'm Kira Yakubov, Licensed Marriage and
Family Therapist and founder ofHeal Your Roots Wellness
practice. Every episode, we talkwith a professional from the
mental health field to learnmore about their approaches and
specialties, and also theirjourney of becoming a therapist.
In this podcast, we'll uncover adeeper look at the world of
therapy from new perspectives.
You'll meet the therapist ofHeal Your Roots Wellness
(00:48):
practice, and trusted colleaguesfrom the community tackling
mental well being. We're your goto Network for practical and
professional insight in mentalhealth. Subscribe for new
episode releases every otherWednesday.
Hello, I'd like to welcometoday's guest, Dr. Michele
(01:09):
Finneran, a licensedprofessional counselor, and
private practice owner of Beckand Associates located in
Florida. Michelle is also theauthor of Surviving Domestic
Abuse, Formal and InformalSupports and Services. And I
have the phenomenal book righthere. Michele, thank you so much
for being a guest today.
Michele Finneran (01:27):
Thank you so much for having me Kira. I
really appreciate being here.
Thank you so much for having meagain.
Kira Yakubov (01:33):
Absolutely. So we always start these episodes with
really learning more about ourguests and their background. So
if you can kind of share alittle bit about your story and
your journey of becoming atherapist and why you got into
the mental health field, thatwould be phenomenal.
Michele Finneran (01:47):
Sure, sure. I started in the mental health
field relatively early on in mylife, I was about 18 19 years
old, where I started working asa mental health tech in the
field. And what I realized earlyon, particularly when I went to
my undergraduate work at SetsonUniversity in DeLand, Florida,
(02:09):
is I learned that I becamereally, really good with the
classes and also with thepeople. When I worked for
internship, at crisisstabilization unit. And it was
really, really significant forme to understand that this is
where I fit in, and how I wasable to help people. Now, I knew
(02:30):
really early on in my childhood,unconsciously, I think, when my
dad kind of opened up to me veryearly on at a young age, it
really disclosed a lot of hisfamily traumas on to me early on
in my life. So It always neverwas a huge mistake or
misunderstanding as to why Iwent in mental health field, or
(02:54):
why I chose conflict resolutionfor my PhD.
Kira Yakubov (02:57):
Okay, so a lot of great experience. But also I
feel like a lot of therapists,there's something within our
families, our own personalexperiences that kind of
informed that decision down theline.
Michele Finneran (03:07):
Absolutely.
And you know, it was a veryunconscious decision. And I
just, I felt so bad for myfather, when he was going
through this as he wasprocessing this with me, and at
too early of an age, but I alsofelt like, I wanted to have
empathy for him and help him butI just was too young and wish to
do so therapeutically. So
Kira Yakubov (03:30):
Sure. And if you could share a little bit about
your practice in Florida and youknow your Ph. D program and
everything because I know youhave a lot of expertise and
experience in the field so thatthe listeners can kind of get
more background that way beforewe dive into the book you wrote.
Michele Finneran (03:46):
Sure, sure. So the PhD is actually in conflict
resolution, and dispute analysisfrom Nova Southeastern
University. I also have alicense to treat at the state of
Florida. I have a master's, andI'm a licensed mental health
counselor. And I have a practicelocated in Coral Springs,
Florida, called Vecc &Associates. And basically it's
(04:07):
I'm dealing with a lot of peoplethat are first responders, I
deal with a lot of nurses, Ideal with a lot of law
enforcement, I deal with a lotof firefighters. And I deal with
a lot of marriages and familiesas well. So, post pandemic, what
I've been noticing is a lot ofmarriages and families really
needed some support, and somehelp. So I've been spearheading
(04:29):
kind of that along the way.
Kira Yakubov (04:31):
That's been a lot coming through, especially with
relationships during thepandemic, everyone kind of being
home and stuck together, rightand all these other dynamics
that might have been, you know,hidden or not as notice really
coming to the forefront and youwork with a lot of people who
are constantly dealing withtraumatic experiences and the
crises.
Michele Finneran (04:51):
Absolutely.
And one of the one of the risesduring the pandemic was there's
three major rises I don't knowif you recognize this Kira as a
licensed Professional, there wasa rise as a suicide, there was a
rise in substance abuse. Andthere was a rise in domestic
abuse and domestic abuse bookthat I wrote, talks a little bit
about how to help professionalsand non professionals, family
(05:13):
members and friends, helpsurvivors of domestic abuse
really come forward and helpingthem in the most effective ways.
Kira Yakubov (05:25):
Yeah, that's really powerful work. I mean, I
commend you for this book, it's,it's very comprehensive, it
covered a lot of informationthat I was surprised to see in
so many different ways, it wasvery valuable.
Michele Finneran (05:35):
Thank you, thank you so much. It was it was
a very interesting research, itwas actually an honor to do
research like this. And tointerview what I did is I
interviewed several survivors ofdomestic abuse. And I
interviewed them in a way thatwas a qualitative study. So I
was able to ask open endedquestions and sub questions to
(06:00):
ask. So I can better get anunderstanding. And then what I
would do with the data is Ianalyze the data. And then when
there's a saturation in data,meaning you're seeing the same
things over and over again, thatbecomes the theme.
Kira Yakubov (06:15):
Sure. Is this kind of the reason why you wrote the
book is that you were startingto see it through the pandemic
and that was a big thing thatwas coming up for your clients?
or was there kind of a differentreason, if you feel comfortable
sharing why that was somethingyou went into, specifically to
research?
Michele Finneran (06:30):
Absolutely. So the reason why I actually chose
this research topic is when Iwas in my Ph. D. program, I was
working for a local jail. And Irealized that the system was,
has been, has been and isextremely flawed. And what I was
noticing when I was doing mygroup sessions with my, with
(06:52):
female incarcerated inmates, isa lot of these inmates that were
incarcerated were incarceratedfor domestic abuse, for
defending themselves in adomestic abuse situation. And so
I thought this was kind oftwisted. And I was kind of
baffled and didn't reallyunderstand what was happening
until I talked to my PhD chair.
And she's like, Well,absolutely, I'm like, Is this is
(07:13):
this a real thing? Like, is thisa real thing that people that
try to stand up for themselves?
They actually get arrested? Andthey try to, like, defend
themselves. And she's like,Yeah, that actually does happen.
So what I started doing is I gotthis research study. And I
started, she said, look at thedata, look at the research and
see if there's holes and gaps inthe data. And what I realized in
(07:37):
the data, when I researched theresearch that was not been done
in this field is there wasn't awhole lot of information about
what kind of supports to helpsurvivors or victims of domestic
abuse. So that's why I decidedto interview survivors that had
(07:57):
been through the system that hadbeen through a year out of a
domestic violence relationship,what that would have been like,
where they use formal andinformal supports, and how
effective they were, were not.
Kira Yakubov (08:10):
Wow, so you're doing really powerful,
significant work to help so manypeople. And I know in this book,
specifically, you focus onwomen. So just being able to
help so many women find thesesupports and help their family
members, but also like legaladvice, the law enforcement,
like I really love that you tooka very, like holistic look of
(08:32):
everything, like the wholesystem of how can they be
helped, in what ways and kind ofdemystifying some of these myths
that people might think are likewill come up? What comes up for
domestic abuse victims andeverything?
Michele Finneran (08:47):
Correct.
Correct. Thank you. Thank you.
Kira Yakubov (08:49):
Yeah, Yeah.
Michele Finneran (08:50):
I just find his spot, I found that the women
that I interviewed, thesurvivors I interviewed had a
comprehensive array of formaland informal supports that they
And so for the listeners, canyou share a little bit of maybe
use, that I was able tocapitalize on.
the definition of domestic abuseand what that looks like,
(09:12):
because I know in your book, youeven share how it's a lot of
people or a lot of women don'tseek help, because they don't
even recognize that they're inan abusive relationship.
Right. Theydon't, they don't realize that
they're, they realize thatsomething is wrong, they do
realize that something is wrong,but they don't understand or can
wrap their head around that it'sactually defined as domestic
(09:36):
abuse. And so what they realizeis something is wrong. And the
only ways that they realize thatwhat it really is, is they do
their own type of research orthey talk to other people, which
is hard to do when a perpetratorisolates you, from your family
and friends. Do that, but that'stypically what happens. So,
(09:59):
Domestic abuse is an array ofdifferent types of abuses, it
can stem from mental andemotional and psychological
abuse. It can range fromphysical abuse and physical
violence. And then there'ssexual abuse. So it's the three
most common types of abuse. Butthere's also other types of
abuse that people don't getinto. And on my platforms this
(10:21):
month, I talk a little bit aboutfinancial abuse, that and what
that looks like in domesticviolence relationship. And so
that financial abuse keeps thevictim and perpetrator stapled
in the relationship as well as acouple of psychological,
traumatic emotional bonding thattakes place between the
(10:42):
perpetrator and the victim, thatkeeps people stapled in their
dynamic. So those those things,and then there's the there could
be religious abuse, there couldbe different different different
spheres, using children as atool, type of abuse, you know,
then with that there could bechild abuse, all kinds of things
(11:05):
kind of morphing into eachother, when it comes to domestic
abuse. It's not just one broaddefinition.
Kira Yakubov (11:12):
Sure, and I think maybe the common one, or maybe
that we see in movies isphysical abuse that's like you
can see it, it's very tangible.
There's marks and everything.
But I don't think it's ascommonly talked about, about the
mental or psychological,emotional, or the financial
abuse that goes that peopledon't really see from the
outside, but the victim isexperiencing and feeling it. And
(11:34):
it's kind of like a slow drip,right? It's not just boom, it's
in your face, because I thinkthat would be easier to identify
versus this is graduallyhappening over time to somebody
Michele Finneran (11:46):
exactly my dissertation chair you know, as
she said, you know, domesticabuse doesn't happen when one
day you wake up and you're yourpartner punches you. that did
that does not happen like that.
It's a gradual, systemic,gradual building block of things
that happen over time, overthings that happened to get you
to a place where one day you'rewaking up, and it's at a place
(12:06):
that you never thought would be.
And so what social mediaportrays is something that's
really not equivalent to whatreally goes on in the home.
social media portrays that therehas to be some sort of
bloodshed, or some sort ofpunching or some sort of visible
strangulation of some sort. Andthat's not always ends up that
(12:29):
way. But it's starts what startsup happening is psychological
abuse starts to take placefirst. And then it gradually
systemically builds on top ofeach other, ridiculing,
threatening, put downs, namecalling, all these things are
conducive to what verbal abusesand mental abuses, making the
(12:54):
victim feel less in exampleslike that.
Kira Yakubov (12:57):
And so it sounds like as I was reading through
this book, is that the commontheme is that this feeling of
powerlessness, and not beingable to trust ourselves, and
being able to kind of recognizethese things. Because whether
it's we've experienced it in thepast, or some of these beliefs
and narratives we've had aboutourselves, and then meeting this
person who was kind ofreinforcing these beliefs or,
(13:19):
like you're saying, ridiculingand making us believe a certain
way about ourselves,
Michele Finneran (13:23):
right. A lot of these a lot of them are
perpetrators actually tried tomake the victim feel like
they're crazy. Like there'ssomething severely wrong with
them. When they're not crazy.
They're they women have aninstinctual gut feeling. It's
particularly women that aremothers, they have a gut feeling
an instinctual feeling that theyknow that that something is not
(13:45):
right. And so what they do isthey do their own kind of
research. And that's what thesurvivors that I researched,
they started reaching out topodcasts, they started reaching
out to support groups online.
And they started reaching out todifferent different places where
they heard similar stories, andthey were like, Oh, my gosh,
(14:07):
this sounds so much. So similarto what I'm going through, and
they began to realize that thisis a this is an actually bigger
thing than what I anticipated.
Kira Yakubov (14:16):
Yeah. And so it sounds like even that process is
pretty long, right? Like firstjust kind of recognizing and
coming to terms with this is nothealthy. This is not a safe
place for me. But then I knowreading through the book, it was
saying, you know, there's like alevel of embarrassment or
humiliation, being able to sharethis with our family or friends
(14:37):
and feeling misunderstood. Or ifthere's law enforcement called
like, a lot of theseinteractions, make them feel
even less safe to express what'sgoing on for them
Michele Finneran (14:48):
more isolated, more isolated, more alienated,
more alone. And the message ifany message that I bring out
forward in this podcast is thatyou're not alone. You're never
alone. There's , there'ssomebody that has. You have.
That's why it's so important tolike, be careful when you're in
(15:08):
small circles about what youtalk about. Because why don't
you just leave? Is a common kindof question that we ask victims,
which is a very unfair,unjustified question to ask a
victim who's going through adomestic violence situation. If
it was that easy, then you you'dleave. But it's very complex.
(15:32):
It's very complex on so manydifferent, so many spheres in so
many levels, that it makes ithard to make that break. And it
takes about nine times in whichto do so.
Kira Yakubov (15:44):
Wow, nine times.
Michele Finneran (15:46):
Nine times statistically, yeah.
Kira Yakubov (15:48):
That's Wow, that's crazy.
And so would you be able toshare a little because I know
that you explain StockholmSyndrome, and how that comes up
in that trauma bonding, thatmight look strange from the
outside looking in to someonewho is experiencing domestic
abuse to feel so close orconnected or almost defend their
abuser in that way.
Michele Finneran (16:09):
So one of the things that I've learned is
going for law enforcement goingthrough a domestic violence call
is probably one of the dangerousmost dangerous calls to go on.
Because they don't know theunpredictability of what they're
going to end up seeing at thisat the scene. So what usually
(16:29):
ends up happening is sometimesin these situations is the
victim calls for help andintervention. A cop, a police
officer comes out and interviewsboth the victim and the
perpetrator and go to arrest aperpetrator for either marks,
it's hard, you can't arrest alaw enforcement officer can
arrest based on psychologicalabuse or mental a mental abuse.
(16:54):
So that's why physical marks ormarkings on the body will equate
to some sort of arrest. And sothe what happens as law
enforcement will end uparresting the perpetrator and
then the victim gets upset.
There's their their theirperpetrators getting arrested,
and then they jump, they try tolike jump on the back of the
(17:14):
police officer, and start tolike, get physical with the
police officers. So there's this[garbled].
And this is this kind of likethe vicious kind of cycle that
goes on when you talk abouttrauma bonding. Yeah, this is
the big the biggest the biggesttraumatic situation when it
comes to trauma bonding is whenthe victim feels traumatized by
(17:40):
the trauma that they'veexperienced, and so much
traumatized, but also protectiveof their perpetrator where they
lash out at someone who theycall to defend them.
Kira Yakubov (17:54):
Yeah. And so can you explain a little bit this
phenomena of Stockholm Syndromefor listeners who may not
understand or may have only seenit on movies where like hostage
situations how this really is agood analogy, or what's
happening for a victim duringthose times?
Michele Finneran (18:11):
Absolutely.
The Stockholm Syndrome isusually a typically coined
termed, used to discuss ahostage situation a hosty and a
hostage situation. What I did isI parallel that with
perpetrators and domesticdomestic violence victims. And
what I did was I because it'svery similar in terms of
behavior, character traits thata perpetrator or hostage does
(18:35):
over their victim. And so what Iwhat I began realizing is, there
become something called traumabonding, which makes it so
difficult for the victim toactually leave because it's like
they they have this kind ofconnection, emotional connection
with their perpetrator that theycan't, they cannot break away
(19:00):
from as much as the he is hurtas much as he trespass as much
as he's tried to put down oremotionally and physically beat
up. There's still thisconnectivity that the victim and
perpetrator have.
And we call we see the cycle ofviolence where there's abuse
(19:22):
that happens. And then there's ahoneymoon phase. And then
there's the escalation thatbuilds in this vicious cycle,
kind of goes round, and roundand round. And that's what keeps
them kind of stapled in thesituation. So the Stockholm
Syndrome was a term coin, basedout of Stockholm, Sweden, where
a hostage and a hostage hostysituation took place at a bank
(19:47):
where the bank robber took overthree hostages. And so what
happened is they began to form abond and the hostage people that
were hostages began to feelsorry and felt bad and started
protecting their the person thattheir perpetrator. And so that
we see that in this parallel todomestic violence victims and
(20:10):
their perpetrators.
Kira Yakubov (20:13):
to protect ourselves and the best way we
know is kind of to please or torationalize what's going on to
make it feel safer and make itfeel like we have some sense of
(20:33):
control?
Michele Finneran (20:34):
Absolutely, it does. Because a victim feels so
out of control. They want tofeel like they control
something.
Kira Yakubov (20:42):
Yeah.
Michele Finneran (20:42):
And so they they use this they use this the
scenario where they hold on toanything that they can feel like
there's a sense of control, likeownership power, that they that
they've been really identifiablystripped of
Kira Yakubov (21:02):
Yeah. So it almost sounds in a counterintuitive way
as a survival mechanism for themto be able to move through this
experience if they can'tphysically leave it. How can I
move through it in the ways thatI can in this moment internally?
And so that is bonding with theperpetrator
Michele Finneran (21:21):
Yes,
Kira Yakubov (21:21):
Wow
Michele Finneran (21:22):
yes, it is a survival. You're absolutely,
Kira. It is a survivalmechanism. this is a crisis.
Kira Yakubov (21:28):
Yeah.
Michele Finneran (21:29):
Baseline survival mechanism. Yes.
Kira Yakubov (21:32):
And so can you share a little bit some of the
ways that at least some of thewomen that you have interviewed
how they have tried to reach outto their family or friends or
how some of their family andfriends have attempted to
support them in the ways thatthey know that may have not been
effective or detrimental?
Michele Finneran (21:49):
Yes. So when reached out to their per se
parent, their parents, thewomen, victims, a lot of
parents, what they ended updoing is they ended up bashing
or berating the perpetrator,which in itself is not helpful
at all for the victim, becausewhat it does is just makes them
feel like they, they stapledtheir decision, they're wrong
(22:13):
decision in the finding a personthat was not the right fit for
them. So they would think that aparent, would you think that
would be helpful for a victim tohear a parent bash and put down
their perpetrator, whichactually is counteractive, it's
counterintuitive, it does notactually does the opposite of
(22:35):
that. So it's definitely nothelpful. So if your daughter
comes to you, and you're aparent, last thing you want to
do is try to berate, put downthe perpetrator, and just try to
be as emotionally available andopen and non judgmental as
possible for the victim slashdaughter. What happens is that
(22:57):
mother daughter relationship,especially when the daughter
comes to the mother, and we'lltalk more a little bit about
that relationship, how importantthat mother daughter
relationship is, and beingemotionally available. And that
attachment there is indicativeto why sometimes women that
women that don't have that kindof relationship, seek out
(23:19):
domestic about unconsciouslyseek out perpetrators.
Kira Yakubov (23:23):
So it sounds like, while the parents or friends may
feel like putting their partnerdown as a way to show that they
don't approve, or they don'tcondone this behavior, and that
they don't like this person, itdoes the opposite of make the
woman feel like she made a wrongdecision. There's something
wrong with her. And there's thislevel of shame. I'm assuming
(23:43):
that's really exacerbated. Soit's like, Oh, I'm gonna double
down on my decision or just pullaway. Because this feels more of
an attack on my judge ofcharacter who I'm picking or the
decisions I'm making, versuswhat it has to say about my
partner.
That's exactly what that is. Younailed that.
And I feel like that's reallyimportant for people to hear
(24:04):
that, because it does feelcounterintuitive to say that,
right? They're not going to wantto be like, oh, yeah, sure, this
is a fine decision. Like theywant to protect them. And it's
kind of going into that theirown survival mode of wanting to
do anything they can to protecttheir loved one, but it does the
opposite. It sounds like
Michele Finneran (24:20):
exactly, it does the opposite. And you would
think that it wouldn't, but itactually does. So, and with
friends, you know, a lot oftimes you know the friends end
up hearing the same stories overand over again and they get
super frustrated and upset. Now,one of the best things that a
friend can do if they can nolonger help their friend slash
(24:44):
victim is such a be suggestiveand having them have real
supports and go into therapy.
That's one of the things thatI've noticed that a lot of
survivors experience when theyhaving their friends help them
is that their friends wouldsuggests them going into therapy
and they did. They listen totheir friends. So they would go
into therapy because the friendsnot being able to help them as
(25:06):
much as they wanted to or couldbased on not having the
professional background thatthey needed.
Kira Yakubov (25:15):
So that's pretty significant for people to know
is that even just, it's out ofour scope where like a lot of
people don't know, even a lot oftherapists, mental health
professionals don't necessarilyknow the best way to help a
victim. But it sounds likegetting them the professional
help. And the expertise is thebest way or is one of the most
effective ways,
Michele Finneran (25:35):
right. And people that are specialized in
treating survivors or victimsthey have a specific type of way
where they talk treat, you know,assess,
Kira Yakubov (25:46):
yeah,
Michele Finner (25:46):
therapeutically.
We had talked about this in mybook, that's about how mental
health therapists sometimes wewant our clients to be where we
want them to be, you know, notnotice that's not necessarily
meeting them where they're at.
you know. Andso, a lot of times when a
Kira Yakubov (26:02):
Yeah, survivor or victim comes to the
therapeutic session, thecounselor immediately wants to
go right into exit exitstrategy. How do we how do we
exit from this relationshipwhere that might not be where
the victim is. Maybe this forthis is the for the first time
the victim is sharing this andprocessing it where the first
(26:23):
time and they're ready to reallyso it's meeting the it's the
therapist meeting the clientslash victim, where they're at
in a moment?
Yeah, because Ican see that also pushing them
away, like telling them what todo, or deciding for them that
this is the best thing right nowagain, takes away their power
and autonomy to figure it out,or to make a decision on their
(26:46):
own. It sounds like a lot of theadvice that victims get is we
know better. And so you shoulddo this now, which it sounds
like almost retraumatizes arekind of confirmed, I'm
powerless. I don't know what todo. I can't trust myself and
making decisions.
Michele Finneran (27:02):
Right, it would definitely re-victimizes
the victim.
Kira Yakubov (27:06):
And so reading through the book, I saw that
some of the effective ways fortherapists or mental health
professionals to help is notgoing straight, like you
mentioned into problem solving,or making them leave immediately
and not being too passive.
Because I saw that it's kind ofchallenging their thinking and
letting them process their storyfirst, and then being able to
help them find differentsupports or create a plan when
(27:27):
they're ready on their time,because that's going to be the
most successful outcome.
Michele Finneran (27:33):
Exactly, exactly. And processing the
story is it may take not justmaybe just more than one session
in which to do and may takeseveral sessions,
Kira Yakubov (27:43):
yeah,
Michele Finneran (27:44):
depending on the severity of them of the
abuse. So having the therapistsallow the the victim slash
client to do that is soimperative and important for the
therapeutic process.
Because when you when you're intherapy and you actually open up
and process you're actuallyhearing yourself talk. And
that's very important for avictim to actually listen to
(28:06):
themselves talk and hearthemselves talk, possibly for
the first time. So that's prettysignificant. And for therapists
to gauge emotionally and alsochallenge, not. Yea, also they
have to have a little bit oflike, a little bit of challenge
along with empathetic response,led along along with
(28:27):
unconditional positive regard.
Yeah. Regardless of where thevictim slash client might be
therapeutically orpsychologically.
Kira Yakubov (28:35):
Yeah, so it's really finding a finesse between
and every person is different,right? So really, there's not
going to be a Formula or Onefits all, you really have to
figure out where they're at,meet them there. And then do
that dance with them until youget to a place where they're
safe. And they're more empoweredto it sounds like leave the
situation that they're in.
Michele Finneran (28:55):
Exactly. And you know, we talked about, I
talked about in the book thatthe the theme, and the stories
may sound similar, but it'sstill very different. There's no
cookie cutter solution now tothese given testimonies. And so
every every each one, each oneis kind of individualized,
according to the reporting tothe victim.
Kira Yakubov (29:16):
Yeah. And so I want to go back a little bit to
the family dynamics and thefriends, right, we kind of
talked about what's noteffective, would you be able to
share, because I know wementioned pushing them to, you
know, seek professional help.
Is there certain ways thatfriends and family can be
supportive and empathetic withyou know, with their words, how
they spend their time with them,and the support that they give
(29:38):
that would be helpful for thevictim to not feel like they're
going to be embarrassed orshamed or they have to isolate?
Michele Finneran (29:46):
their loved one go through this over and
over again. And one of thethings that is I would recommend
a firm friend or family membernot do is ghost, your victim
slash family slash friend.
However, with that being said,the victim's family and friend
(30:09):
can also very much lead toburnout and stress by watching
their their loved one go throughthis historically and openly and
over and over again, it's justreally important for the friend
and family member to take a stepback. And to kind of regroup and
replenish themselves in order tobe able to be there for their
(30:30):
friend who's a victim ghostingthem is, again, another form of
abandonment, which victim doesnot need, but also the victim
may not understand what thefriend is actually going through
or the family member might begoing through watching her go
through all this at the sametime over and over again. So
(30:50):
it's that friend, and thatfamily taking a step back and
just like regaining their owngrounding
Kira Yakubov (30:57):
yea
Michele Finneran (30:58):
and their own type of replenishment if you
will, in order to fill their cupagain. So they can be more they
can be more or less stilleffective for their friend slash
Kira Yakubov (31:10):
Yeah. So it sounds like kind of just being there to
victim.
hear them to support themempathetically, and to
understand what they're goingthrough it without necessarily
telling them to leave bashingthem, you know, pointing him in
the direction of support, butalso making sure that they take
care of themselves and not getburned out to a point where they
no longer want to interact withthem. And it sounds like kind of
(31:31):
setting those boundaries tolike, listen, like after all
these conversations, it feelsrepetitive, I feel frustrated, I
feel hurt watching you gothrough this. I have to take a
break from talking about thissometimes. So I can continue
showing up for you when you needme.
Michele Finneran (31:45):
Exactly.
Exactly.
That can be tough tooThat's a really good encap.
absolutely it's very tough to
Kira Yakubov (31:50):
Yeah, set those boundaries. Because
you you don't really want to but
Michele Finneran (31:53):
you know, they're really good. So that's
you kind of have to for your ownmental health.
Kira, that's a really goodencapsulation of what exactly a
solid a summarized statement.
That's exactly what's happeningthere.
Kira Yakubov (32:09):
And so I did while I was reading your book, it
actually kind of surprised me alittle bit to learn more about
the mother daughterrelationship, to see how that
might influence or impact avictim being victimized later on
in life or like how youmentioned sometimes like
subconsciously being attractedto an abusive partner, can you
share a little bit more aboutwhat that looks like in that
(32:32):
important dynamic between amother and daughter.
Michele Finneran (32:34):
So the same sex parent is always probably a
very important parent toidentify with and relate to. And
what I what I realized, goingthrough the interviews with a
lot of these survivors is metmost of them all of them. I
would think I thought going in Ihad my own biases, obviously, we
(32:56):
you do when you do research, youwould think that there would be
issue with the mother with I'msorry, with the daughter, Father
relationship,
Kira Yakubov (33:03):
that's what I thought,
Michele Finneran (33:04):
but it's not.
it was always the motherdaughter relationship. That was
always impaired, every singlewoman that I interviewed, had a
disruptive relationship withtheir mother. And what I found
was in the mother, the motherrelationship with the daughter,
the mother was physically viablefor the daughter, tangibly
(33:26):
babysits can give money, placesplace to live, transportation,
childcare, whatever the case maybe, what was significant that
was not there is the emotionalsupport that the victim actually
needed from their mother. Andthat that emotional
unavailability and almostnarcissistic mother made it
(33:50):
prevalent for the daughter toseek out a different type of
intimate partner that theyweren't finding that they found
that that that was voided out intheir mother daughter
relationship.
Kira Yakubov (34:06):
That's so fascinating to think about,
because I thought the same asyou started thinking might be
the relationship with the Fatheror having a controlling, you
know, father figure that way.
But it sounds like not havingthat nurturing, emotional
connection and security, as adaughter with your mother is so
significant in how you viewyourself, how you view other
relationships and what you'relooking for when you're dating
(34:28):
somebody. So it almost soundslike exactly
if they didn't receive the loveand security and self esteem
through that parent, they'regoing to search and work hard to
find someone who can providethat. And if we're on the
opposite end, if this is apartner who is controlling or
(34:49):
manipulative can easily takeadvantage of someone who may
feel that way about themselvesor who may be lacking that
security and love from theirparents or their mother
specifically.
Michele Finneran (35:01):
Exactly, exactly.
And so that mother daughterrelationship is so very
important to establish. And, youknow, a lot of a lot of my
survivors that I interviewedjust did not have that emotional
availability available to themin rearing. And they also, many
of the victims that were raisingup in their households saw their
(35:24):
mom, as victims as well,
Kira Yakubov (35:26):
sure
Michele Finneran (35:27):
that learned helplessness that they've
learned from their, from theirmother, in their own domestic
violence situation. And abusiverelationship was also a learned
kind of behavior that wastransgressed into the daughter.
Kira Yakubov (35:42):
And that's really unfortunate, because it kind of
goes into this generationaltrauma and abuse is that what we
see and experience in our homeis normalized, right? Like, even
if we go out into the world andrecognize that it might not be
that way, everywhere, it feelsnormal, and it feels acceptable
to some degree, for us torepeat, and to have those
(36:02):
beliefs about ourselves, or whowe align with kind of inner
identity within our home.
Michele Finneran (36:07):
Exactly We are, we are creatures of habit.
And we are creatures offamiliarity. And even though it
may be dysfunctional, wegravitate to what is familiar,
even though it may be unhealthy,dysfunctional and wrong. We
gravitate to one that'sfamiliar. And so that's that you
will see that generational cycleof violence, and traumatization
(36:30):
happen from passed down fromgeneration from woman to woman
in the family.
Kira Yakubov (36:35):
And so it's tough, because, you know, the mother
was abused, right? Like this isalso a victim, who this is now
being passed on to theirdaughter, have you any of the
women that you interview, likewhat that was like if they had
children are what that felt likefor them to recognize that how
much power and responsibility isalso on them for their children
(36:56):
by seeing them vicariouslyliving through that as well,
Michele Finneran (36:59):
exactly. And so what the what the daughter
had to do with their ownchildren, is they had to
recognize consciously aconscious recognition that what
they saw in their own family oforigin they did not like, and
they weren't going to perpetrateit over and over again. So they
made a staple and a decisonearly on in their year raising
(37:22):
up that they were not going todo this to their children. And
they made it when they make thecall, we made a conscious choice
is something that you disliked,for so long in your past, you
then make a conscious choice tobreak that cycle.
Kira Yakubov (37:39):
And that's pretty powerful. So even even if
victims who have children leaveat a certain point, while the
kids are still smaller, at somepoint, they're able to recognize
and see that their mom waspowerful and strong enough to
exit this situation. So that initself is also empowering for
the children to recognize thatyou don't have to be a victim,
right? You can move through thiswith the proper support and help
(38:01):
and it has to be a veryconscious effort on your part.
Michele Finneran (38:05):
Absolutely.
Kira Yakubov (38:06):
This book was so informative, thank you for
writing this. I mean readingthis was so helpful for me to
recognize as a professional, butpersonally to like, wow, there
was some relationships that Iwent through that were kind of
questionable that I would havenever thought about because it
didn't look the way it looked onTV or there wasn't violence
involved.
Michele Finneran (38:25):
That's why women, not to discredit victims,
and not to discredit theirexperiences or their narratives,
sometimes don't realize thatthey're in when they're in it,
you know, it's when you step outof the situation or out of the
relationship, then you begin torealize what a toxic situation
this might have been for you.
Kira Yakubov (38:46):
It's getting space away from that to kind of be
more objective, like take a stepback. Because when we're in it,
right, like, that's whytherapists can't be a therapist
to someone they know, or liketheir family or friends. Because
we're too involved, we're tooinvested. It's not objective
anymore. But when you take astep back and distance yourself
from that experience, you canstart to look at it a little bit
more objectively and like gain adifferent perspective. And that
(39:10):
whole process sounds likegrieving within itself to
recognize that you've been inthis relationship that you
didn't even realize was abusive.
And now you are and now you'regetting out of it. Like that
takes a lot of strength to beable to do that.
Michele Finneran (39:22):
Yes, and resiliency.
Kira Yakubov (39:24):
Absolutely
Michele Finneran (39:25):
I mean, these women, all these will women all
have exhibited the same type ofresiliency, that one character
trait of resiliency and beingable to stand up on their own
eventually, through formal andinformal supports. It was the
key for these women getting outof their toxic abusive
relationships
Kira Yakubov (39:44):
that's so powerful. That sounds like them
being able to find their ownstrength and power and gain
control of their own finances,their own situations, make
decisions and trust themselvesto make these decisions to is
really powerful and how havethat respect for themselves.
Michele Finneran (40:03):
biggest love that they can give themselves
that they discover forthemselves. And that in itself
is a gift and a journey withself that is enbarking on a
(40:23):
beautiful relationship on it'sown
Kira Yakubov (40:26):
absolutely, and that stays with you forever,
because that's you and yourself,that's, that never goes away,
Michele Finneran (40:31):
never goes away, you'll never you'll never,
you're your own loyalty, you'reyour own best friend, you have
to shake your shake your self,shake your hands with yourself
as as being a friend and a purseof self compassion, love for
your own self.
Kira Yakubov (40:47):
are there any for listeners, whether they are
recognizing that they might bein an abusive relationship? Or
no, or for, you know, informalsupports? Are there some
resources or things that you'dbe able to share for people that
they could reach out to whetherit's online or in shelters or
anything like that, to helppeople kind of find this?
Michele Finneran (41:07):
Absolutely.
What I can do Kira is I have alist of National Domestic
Violence resources is a, it'slike a page long, I can email it
to you and send it to you. Soyou can put it all within your
podcast.
Kira Yakubov (41:19):
Thank you, that will be really helpful. And I
can add that in the show notesfor everybody.
Michele Finneran (41:23):
Perfect.
Kira Yakubov (41:24):
So Michele, can you share what's coming up new
for you and your practice?
Michele Finneran (41:27):
Well, with the research that I'm doing, I do
what I do with the research,which was with what the PhD is
typically for, is I take theresearch and I use it to use
application into my clinicalpractice. So not only am I a
clinician, and a practicepractitioner, that I practice,
mental health and skills andtechniques to help decrease
(41:50):
mental health symptoms, but alsoresearcher to kind of research
statistics topics that need tobe more like that need to be
more researched out. And that'swhy I decided to just work on my
next writing project is when Irealized what some of the things
(42:10):
that were going on for firstresponders though, that what
they were dealing with, withcompassion fatigue during
COVID-19. And so that theresearch along with the
application is what I like to dobest
Kira Yakubov (42:24):
awesome. And where can follower or the audience
members find you if they want toreach out to you to work with
you.
Michele Finneran (42:31):
They can reach me on my website, it's
www.veccandassociates.com. Andthere's a tab there that you can
join that says Contact Us, andyou contact me directly on there
it goes right to my email.
Kira Yakubov (42:47):
Perfect. Michele, thank you so much for being a
guest today. This was valuableand very insightful information
and I appreciate you sharingyour expertise with us.
Michele Finneran (42:55):
Thank you, Kira, for inviting me on your
wonderful podcast. I reallyappreciate you. Thank you so
much for having me.
psychological abuse starts to take place
(00:02):
first, and then it graduallysystemically builds on top of
each other, ridiculing,threatening, put downs, name
calling. All these things areconducive to what verbal abuses
and mental abuses
Kira Yakubov (00:25):
Hi, I'm Kira Yakubov, Licensed Marriage and
Family Therapist and founder ofHeal Your Roots Wellness
practice. Every episode, we talkwith a professional from the
mental health field to learnmore about their approaches and
specialties, and also theirjourney of becoming a therapist.
In this podcast, we'll uncover adeeper look at the world of
therapy from new perspectives.
You'll meet the therapist ofHeal Your Roots Wellness
(00:48):
practice, and trusted colleaguesfrom the community tackling
mental well being. We're your goto Network for practical and
professional insight in mentalhealth. Subscribe for new
episode releases every otherWednesday.
Hello, I'd like to welcometoday's guest, Dr. Michele
(01:09):
Finneran, a licensedprofessional counselor, and
private practice owner of Beckand Associates located in
Florida. Michelle is also theauthor of Surviving Domestic
Abuse, Formal and InformalSupports and Services. And I
have the phenomenal book righthere. Michele, thank you so much
for being a guest today.
Michele Finneran (01:27):
Thank you so much for having me Kira. I
really appreciate being here.
Thank you so much for having meagain.
Kira Yakubov (01:33):
Absolutely. So we always start these episodes with
really learning more about ourguests and their background. So
if you can kind of share alittle bit about your story and
your journey of becoming atherapist and why you got into
the mental health field, thatwould be phenomenal.
Michele Finneran (01:47):
Sure, sure. I started in the mental health
field relatively early on in mylife, I was about 18 19 years
old, where I started working asa mental health tech in the
field. And what I realized earlyon, particularly when I went to
my undergraduate work at SetsonUniversity in DeLand, Florida,
(02:09):
is I learned that I becamereally, really good with the
classes and also with thepeople. When I worked for
internship, at crisisstabilization unit. And it was
really, really significant forme to understand that this is
where I fit in, and how I wasable to help people. Now, I knew
(02:30):
really early on in my childhood,unconsciously, I think, when my
dad kind of opened up to me veryearly on at a young age, it
really disclosed a lot of hisfamily traumas on to me early on
in my life. So It always neverwas a huge mistake or
misunderstanding as to why Iwent in mental health field, or
(02:54):
why I chose conflict resolutionfor my PhD.
Kira Yakubov (02:57):
Okay, so a lot of great experience. But also I
feel like a lot of therapists,there's something within our
families, our own personalexperiences that kind of
informed that decision down theline.
Michele Finneran (03:07):
Absolutely.
And you know, it was a veryunconscious decision. And I
just, I felt so bad for myfather, when he was going
through this as he wasprocessing this with me, and at
too early of an age, but I alsofelt like, I wanted to have
empathy for him and help him butI just was too young and wish to
do so therapeutically. So
Kira Yakubov (03:30):
Sure. And if you could share a little bit about
your practice in Florida and youknow your Ph. D program and
everything because I know youhave a lot of expertise and
experience in the field so thatthe listeners can kind of get
more background that way beforewe dive into the book you wrote.
Michele Finneran (03:46):
Sure, sure. So the PhD is actually in conflict
resolution, and dispute analysisfrom Nova Southeastern
University. I also have alicense to treat at the state of
Florida. I have a master's, andI'm a licensed mental health
counselor. And I have a practicelocated in Coral Springs,
Florida, called Vecc &Associates. And basically it's
(04:07):
I'm dealing with a lot of peoplethat are first responders, I
deal with a lot of nurses, Ideal with a lot of law
enforcement, I deal with a lotof firefighters. And I deal with
a lot of marriages and familiesas well. So, post pandemic, what
I've been noticing is a lot ofmarriages and families really
needed some support, and somehelp. So I've been spearheading
(04:29):
kind of that along the way.
Kira Yakubov (04:31):
That's been a lot coming through, especially with
relationships during thepandemic, everyone kind of being
home and stuck together, rightand all these other dynamics
that might have been, you know,hidden or not as notice really
coming to the forefront and youwork with a lot of people who
are constantly dealing withtraumatic experiences and the
crises.
Michele Finneran (04:51):
Absolutely.
And one of the one of the risesduring the pandemic was there's
three major rises I don't knowif you recognize this Kira as a
licensed Professional, there wasa rise as a suicide, there was a
rise in substance abuse. Andthere was a rise in domestic
abuse and domestic abuse bookthat I wrote, talks a little bit
about how to help professionalsand non professionals, family
(05:13):
members and friends, helpsurvivors of domestic abuse
really come forward and helpingthem in the most effective ways.
Kira Yakubov (05:25):
Yeah, that's really powerful work. I mean, I
commend you for this book, it's,it's very comprehensive, it
covered a lot of informationthat I was surprised to see in
so many different ways, it wasvery valuable.
Michele Finneran (05:35):
Thank you, thank you so much. It was it was
a very interesting research, itwas actually an honor to do
research like this. And tointerview what I did is I
interviewed several survivors ofdomestic abuse. And I
interviewed them in a way thatwas a qualitative study. So I
was able to ask open endedquestions and sub questions to
(06:00):
ask. So I can better get anunderstanding. And then what I
would do with the data is Ianalyze the data. And then when
there's a saturation in data,meaning you're seeing the same
things over and over again, thatbecomes the theme.
Kira Yakubov (06:15):
Sure. Is this kind of the reason why you wrote the
book is that you were startingto see it through the pandemic
and that was a big thing thatwas coming up for your clients?
or was there kind of a differentreason, if you feel comfortable
sharing why that was somethingyou went into, specifically to
research?
Michele Finneran (06:30):
Absolutely. So the reason why I actually chose
this research topic is when Iwas in my Ph. D. program, I was
working for a local jail. And Irealized that the system was,
has been, has been and isextremely flawed. And what I was
noticing when I was doing mygroup sessions with my, with
(06:52):
female incarcerated inmates, isa lot of these inmates that were
incarcerated were incarceratedfor domestic abuse, for
defending themselves in adomestic abuse situation. And so
I thought this was kind oftwisted. And I was kind of
baffled and didn't reallyunderstand what was happening
until I talked to my PhD chair.
And she's like, Well,absolutely, I'm like, Is this is
(07:13):
this a real thing? Like, is thisa real thing that people that
try to stand up for themselves?
They actually get arrested? Andthey try to, like, defend
themselves. And she's like,Yeah, that actually does happen.
So what I started doing is I gotthis research study. And I
started, she said, look at thedata, look at the research and
see if there's holes and gaps inthe data. And what I realized in
(07:37):
the data, when I researched theresearch that was not been done
in this field is there wasn't awhole lot of information about
what kind of supports to helpsurvivors or victims of domestic
abuse. So that's why I decidedto interview survivors that had
(07:57):
been through the system that hadbeen through a year out of a
domestic violence relationship,what that would have been like,
where they use formal andinformal supports, and how
effective they were, were not.
Kira Yakubov (08:10):
Wow, so you're doing really powerful,
significant work to help so manypeople. And I know in this book,
specifically, you focus onwomen. So just being able to
help so many women find thesesupports and help their family
members, but also like legaladvice, the law enforcement,
like I really love that you tooka very, like holistic look of
(08:32):
everything, like the wholesystem of how can they be
helped, in what ways and kind ofdemystifying some of these myths
that people might think are likewill come up? What comes up for
domestic abuse victims andeverything?
Michele Finneran (08:47):
Correct.
Correct. Thank you. Thank you.
Kira Yakubov (08:49):
Yeah, Yeah.
Michele Finneran (08:50):
I just find his spot, I found that the women
that I interviewed, thesurvivors I interviewed had a
comprehensive array of formaland informal supports that they
And so for the listeners, canyou share a little bit of maybe
use, that I was able tocapitalize on.
the definition of domestic abuseand what that looks like,
(09:12):
because I know in your book, youeven share how it's a lot of
people or a lot of women don'tseek help, because they don't
even recognize that they're inan abusive relationship.
Right. Theydon't, they don't realize that
they're, they realize thatsomething is wrong, they do
realize that something is wrong,but they don't understand or can
wrap their head around that it'sactually defined as domestic
(09:36):
abuse. And so what they realizeis something is wrong. And the
only ways that they realize thatwhat it really is, is they do
their own type of research orthey talk to other people, which
is hard to do when a perpetratorisolates you, from your family
and friends. Do that, but that'stypically what happens. So,
(09:59):
Domestic abuse is an array ofdifferent types of abuses, it
can stem from mental andemotional and psychological
abuse. It can range fromphysical abuse and physical
violence. And then there'ssexual abuse. So it's the three
most common types of abuse. Butthere's also other types of
abuse that people don't getinto. And on my platforms this
(10:21):
month, I talk a little bit aboutfinancial abuse, that and what
that looks like in domesticviolence relationship. And so
that financial abuse keeps thevictim and perpetrator stapled
in the relationship as well as acouple of psychological,
traumatic emotional bonding thattakes place between the
(10:42):
perpetrator and the victim, thatkeeps people stapled in their
dynamic. So those those things,and then there's the there could
be religious abuse, there couldbe different different different
spheres, using children as atool, type of abuse, you know,
then with that there could bechild abuse, all kinds of things
(11:05):
kind of morphing into eachother, when it comes to domestic
abuse. It's not just one broaddefinition.
Kira Yakubov (11:12):
Sure, and I think maybe the common one, or maybe
that we see in movies isphysical abuse that's like you
can see it, it's very tangible.
There's marks and everything.
But I don't think it's ascommonly talked about, about the
mental or psychological,emotional, or the financial
abuse that goes that peopledon't really see from the
outside, but the victim isexperiencing and feeling it. And
(11:34):
it's kind of like a slow drip,right? It's not just boom, it's
in your face, because I thinkthat would be easier to identify
versus this is graduallyhappening over time to somebody
Michele Finneran (11:46):
exactly my dissertation chair you know, as
she said, you know, domesticabuse doesn't happen when one
day you wake up and you're yourpartner punches you. that did
that does not happen like that.
It's a gradual, systemic,gradual building block of things
that happen over time, overthings that happened to get you
to a place where one day you'rewaking up, and it's at a place
(12:06):
that you never thought would be.
And so what social mediaportrays is something that's
really not equivalent to whatreally goes on in the home.
social media portrays that therehas to be some sort of
bloodshed, or some sort ofpunching or some sort of visible
strangulation of some sort. Andthat's not always ends up that
(12:29):
way. But it's starts what startsup happening is psychological
abuse starts to take placefirst. And then it gradually
systemically builds on top ofeach other, ridiculing,
threatening, put downs, namecalling, all these things are
conducive to what verbal abusesand mental abuses, making the
(12:54):
victim feel less in exampleslike that.
Kira Yakubov (12:57):
And so it sounds like as I was reading through
this book, is that the commontheme is that this feeling of
powerlessness, and not beingable to trust ourselves, and
being able to kind of recognizethese things. Because whether
it's we've experienced it in thepast, or some of these beliefs
and narratives we've had aboutourselves, and then meeting this
person who was kind ofreinforcing these beliefs or,
(13:19):
like you're saying, ridiculingand making us believe a certain
way about ourselves,
Michele Finneran (13:23):
right. A lot of these a lot of them are
perpetrators actually tried tomake the victim feel like
they're crazy. Like there'ssomething severely wrong with
them. When they're not crazy.
They're they women have aninstinctual gut feeling. It's
particularly women that aremothers, they have a gut feeling
an instinctual feeling that theyknow that that something is not
(13:45):
right. And so what they do isthey do their own kind of
research. And that's what thesurvivors that I researched,
they started reaching out topodcasts, they started reaching
out to support groups online.
And they started reaching out todifferent different places where
they heard similar stories, andthey were like, Oh, my gosh,
(14:07):
this sounds so much. So similarto what I'm going through, and
they began to realize that thisis a this is an actually bigger
thing than what I anticipated.
Kira Yakubov (14:16):
Yeah. And so it sounds like even that process is
pretty long, right? Like firstjust kind of recognizing and
coming to terms with this is nothealthy. This is not a safe
place for me. But then I knowreading through the book, it was
saying, you know, there's like alevel of embarrassment or
humiliation, being able to sharethis with our family or friends
(14:37):
and feeling misunderstood. Or ifthere's law enforcement called
like, a lot of theseinteractions, make them feel
even less safe to express what'sgoing on for them
Michele Finneran (14:48):
more isolated, more isolated, more alienated,
more alone. And the message ifany message that I bring out
forward in this podcast is thatyou're not alone. You're never
alone. There's , there'ssomebody that has. You have.
That's why it's so important tolike, be careful when you're in
(15:08):
small circles about what youtalk about. Because why don't
you just leave? Is a common kindof question that we ask victims,
which is a very unfair,unjustified question to ask a
victim who's going through adomestic violence situation. If
it was that easy, then you you'dleave. But it's very complex.
(15:32):
It's very complex on so manydifferent, so many spheres in so
many levels, that it makes ithard to make that break. And it
takes about nine times in whichto do so.
Kira Yakubov (15:44):
Wow, nine times.
Michele Finneran (15:46):
Nine times statistically, yeah.
Kira Yakubov (15:48):
That's Wow, that's crazy.
And so would you be able toshare a little because I know
that you explain StockholmSyndrome, and how that comes up
in that trauma bonding, thatmight look strange from the
outside looking in to someonewho is experiencing domestic
abuse to feel so close orconnected or almost defend their
abuser in that way.
Michele Finneran (16:09):
So one of the things that I've learned is
going for law enforcement goingthrough a domestic violence call
is probably one of the dangerousmost dangerous calls to go on.
Because they don't know theunpredictability of what they're
going to end up seeing at thisat the scene. So what usually
(16:29):
ends up happening is sometimesin these situations is the
victim calls for help andintervention. A cop, a police
officer comes out and interviewsboth the victim and the
perpetrator and go to arrest aperpetrator for either marks,
it's hard, you can't arrest alaw enforcement officer can
arrest based on psychologicalabuse or mental a mental abuse.
(16:54):
So that's why physical marks ormarkings on the body will equate
to some sort of arrest. And sothe what happens as law
enforcement will end uparresting the perpetrator and
then the victim gets upset.
There's their their theirperpetrators getting arrested,
and then they jump, they try tolike jump on the back of the
(17:14):
police officer, and start tolike, get physical with the
police officers. So there's this[garbled].
And this is this kind of likethe vicious kind of cycle that
goes on when you talk abouttrauma bonding. Yeah, this is
the big the biggest the biggesttraumatic situation when it
comes to trauma bonding is whenthe victim feels traumatized by
(17:40):
the trauma that they'veexperienced, and so much
traumatized, but also protectiveof their perpetrator where they
lash out at someone who theycall to defend them.
Kira Yakubov (17:54):
Yeah. And so can you explain a little bit this
phenomena of Stockholm Syndromefor listeners who may not
understand or may have only seenit on movies where like hostage
situations how this really is agood analogy, or what's
happening for a victim duringthose times?
Michele Finneran (18:11):
Absolutely.
The Stockholm Syndrome isusually a typically coined
termed, used to discuss ahostage situation a hosty and a
hostage situation. What I did isI parallel that with
perpetrators and domesticdomestic violence victims. And
what I did was I because it'svery similar in terms of
behavior, character traits thata perpetrator or hostage does
(18:35):
over their victim. And so what Iwhat I began realizing is, there
become something called traumabonding, which makes it so
difficult for the victim toactually leave because it's like
they they have this kind ofconnection, emotional connection
with their perpetrator that theycan't, they cannot break away
(19:00):
from as much as the he is hurtas much as he trespass as much
as he's tried to put down oremotionally and physically beat
up. There's still thisconnectivity that the victim and
perpetrator have.
And we call we see the cycle ofviolence where there's abuse
(19:22):
that happens. And then there's ahoneymoon phase. And then
there's the escalation thatbuilds in this vicious cycle,
kind of goes round, and roundand round. And that's what keeps
them kind of stapled in thesituation. So the Stockholm
Syndrome was a term coin, basedout of Stockholm, Sweden, where
a hostage and a hostage hostysituation took place at a bank
(19:47):
where the bank robber took overthree hostages. And so what
happened is they began to form abond and the hostage people that
were hostages began to feelsorry and felt bad and started
protecting their the person thattheir perpetrator. And so that
we see that in this parallel todomestic violence victims and
(20:10):
their perpetrators.
Kira Yakubov (20:13):
to protect ourselves and the best way we
know is kind of to please or torationalize what's going on to
make it feel safer and make itfeel like we have some sense of
(20:33):
control?
Michele Finneran (20:34):
Absolutely, it does. Because a victim feels so
out of control. They want tofeel like they control
something.
Kira Yakubov (20:42):
Yeah.
Michele Finneran (20:42):
And so they they use this they use this the
scenario where they hold on toanything that they can feel like
there's a sense of control, likeownership power, that they that
they've been really identifiablystripped of
Kira Yakubov (21:02):
Yeah. So it almost sounds in a counterintuitive way
as a survival mechanism for themto be able to move through this
experience if they can'tphysically leave it. How can I
move through it in the ways thatI can in this moment internally?
And so that is bonding with theperpetrator
Michele Finneran (21:21):
Yes,
Kira Yakubov (21:21):
Wow
Michele Finneran (21:22):
yes, it is a survival. You're absolutely,
Kira. It is a survivalmechanism. this is a crisis.
Kira Yakubov (21:28):
Yeah.
Michele Finneran (21:29):
Baseline survival mechanism. Yes.
Kira Yakubov (21:32):
And so can you share a little bit some of the
ways that at least some of thewomen that you have interviewed
how they have tried to reach outto their family or friends or
how some of their family andfriends have attempted to
support them in the ways thatthey know that may have not been
effective or detrimental?
Michele Finneran (21:49):
Yes. So when reached out to their per se
parent, their parents, thewomen, victims, a lot of
parents, what they ended updoing is they ended up bashing
or berating the perpetrator,which in itself is not helpful
at all for the victim, becausewhat it does is just makes them
feel like they, they stapledtheir decision, they're wrong
(22:13):
decision in the finding a personthat was not the right fit for
them. So they would think that aparent, would you think that
would be helpful for a victim tohear a parent bash and put down
their perpetrator, whichactually is counteractive, it's
counterintuitive, it does notactually does the opposite of
(22:35):
that. So it's definitely nothelpful. So if your daughter
comes to you, and you're aparent, last thing you want to
do is try to berate, put downthe perpetrator, and just try to
be as emotionally available andopen and non judgmental as
possible for the victim slashdaughter. What happens is that
(22:57):
mother daughter relationship,especially when the daughter
comes to the mother, and we'lltalk more a little bit about
that relationship, how importantthat mother daughter
relationship is, and beingemotionally available. And that
attachment there is indicativeto why sometimes women that
women that don't have that kindof relationship, seek out
(23:19):
domestic about unconsciouslyseek out perpetrators.
Kira Yakubov (23:23):
So it sounds like, while the parents or friends may
feel like putting their partnerdown as a way to show that they
don't approve, or they don'tcondone this behavior, and that
they don't like this person, itdoes the opposite of make the
woman feel like she made a wrongdecision. There's something
wrong with her. And there's thislevel of shame. I'm assuming
(23:43):
that's really exacerbated. Soit's like, Oh, I'm gonna double
down on my decision or just pullaway. Because this feels more of
an attack on my judge ofcharacter who I'm picking or the
decisions I'm making, versuswhat it has to say about my
partner.
That's exactly what that is. Younailed that.
And I feel like that's reallyimportant for people to hear
(24:04):
that, because it does feelcounterintuitive to say that,
right? They're not going to wantto be like, oh, yeah, sure, this
is a fine decision. Like theywant to protect them. And it's
kind of going into that theirown survival mode of wanting to
do anything they can to protecttheir loved one, but it does the
opposite. It sounds like
Michele Finneran (24:20):
exactly, it does the opposite. And you would
think that it wouldn't, but itactually does. So, and with
friends, you know, a lot oftimes you know the friends end
up hearing the same stories overand over again and they get
super frustrated and upset. Now,one of the best things that a
friend can do if they can nolonger help their friend slash
(24:44):
victim is such a be suggestiveand having them have real
supports and go into therapy.
That's one of the things thatI've noticed that a lot of
survivors experience when theyhaving their friends help them
is that their friends wouldsuggests them going into therapy
and they did. They listen totheir friends. So they would go
into therapy because the friendsnot being able to help them as
(25:06):
much as they wanted to or couldbased on not having the
professional background thatthey needed.
Kira Yakubov (25:15):
So that's pretty significant for people to know
is that even just, it's out ofour scope where like a lot of
people don't know, even a lot oftherapists, mental health
professionals don't necessarilyknow the best way to help a
victim. But it sounds likegetting them the professional
help. And the expertise is thebest way or is one of the most
effective ways,
Michele Finneran (25:35):
right. And people that are specialized in
treating survivors or victimsthey have a specific type of way
where they talk treat, you know,assess,
Kira Yakubov (25:46):
yeah,
Michele Finner (25:46):
therapeutically.
We had talked about this in mybook, that's about how mental
health therapists sometimes wewant our clients to be where we
want them to be, you know, notnotice that's not necessarily
meeting them where they're at.
you know. Andso, a lot of times when a
Kira Yakubov (26:02):
Yeah, survivor or victim comes to the
therapeutic session, thecounselor immediately wants to
go right into exit exitstrategy. How do we how do we
exit from this relationshipwhere that might not be where
the victim is. Maybe this forthis is the for the first time
the victim is sharing this andprocessing it where the first
(26:23):
time and they're ready to reallyso it's meeting the it's the
therapist meeting the clientslash victim, where they're at
in a moment?
Yeah, because Ican see that also pushing them
away, like telling them what todo, or deciding for them that
this is the best thing right nowagain, takes away their power
and autonomy to figure it out,or to make a decision on their
(26:46):
own. It sounds like a lot of theadvice that victims get is we
know better. And so you shoulddo this now, which it sounds
like almost retraumatizes arekind of confirmed, I'm
powerless. I don't know what todo. I can't trust myself and
making decisions.
Michele Finneran (27:02):
Right, it would definitely re-victimizes
the victim.
Kira Yakubov (27:06):
And so reading through the book, I saw that
some of the effective ways fortherapists or mental health
professionals to help is notgoing straight, like you
mentioned into problem solving,or making them leave immediately
and not being too passive.
Because I saw that it's kind ofchallenging their thinking and
letting them process their storyfirst, and then being able to
help them find differentsupports or create a plan when
(27:27):
they're ready on their time,because that's going to be the
most successful outcome.
Michele Finneran (27:33):
Exactly, exactly. And processing the
story is it may take not justmaybe just more than one session
in which to do and may takeseveral sessions,
Kira Yakubov (27:43):
yeah,
Michele Finneran (27:44):
depending on the severity of them of the
abuse. So having the therapistsallow the the victim slash
client to do that is soimperative and important for the
therapeutic process.
Because when you when you're intherapy and you actually open up
and process you're actuallyhearing yourself talk. And
that's very important for avictim to actually listen to
(28:06):
themselves talk and hearthemselves talk, possibly for
the first time. So that's prettysignificant. And for therapists
to gauge emotionally and alsochallenge, not. Yea, also they
have to have a little bit oflike, a little bit of challenge
along with empathetic response,led along along with
(28:27):
unconditional positive regard.
Yeah. Regardless of where thevictim slash client might be
therapeutically orpsychologically.
Kira Yakubov (28:35):
Yeah, so it's really finding a finesse between
and every person is different,right? So really, there's not
going to be a Formula or Onefits all, you really have to
figure out where they're at,meet them there. And then do
that dance with them until youget to a place where they're
safe. And they're more empoweredto it sounds like leave the
situation that they're in.
Michele Finneran (28:55):
Exactly. And you know, we talked about, I
talked about in the book thatthe the theme, and the stories
may sound similar, but it'sstill very different. There's no
cookie cutter solution now tothese given testimonies. And so
every every each one, each oneis kind of individualized,
according to the reporting tothe victim.
Kira Yakubov (29:16):
Yeah. And so I want to go back a little bit to
the family dynamics and thefriends, right, we kind of
talked about what's noteffective, would you be able to
share, because I know wementioned pushing them to, you
know, seek professional help.
Is there certain ways thatfriends and family can be
supportive and empathetic withyou know, with their words, how
they spend their time with them,and the support that they give
(29:38):
that would be helpful for thevictim to not feel like they're
going to be embarrassed orshamed or they have to isolate?
Michele Finneran (29:46):
their loved one go through this over and
over again. And one of thethings that is I would recommend
a firm friend or family membernot do is ghost, your victim
slash family slash friend.
However, with that being said,the victim's family and friend
(30:09):
can also very much lead toburnout and stress by watching
their their loved one go throughthis historically and openly and
over and over again, it's justreally important for the friend
and family member to take a stepback. And to kind of regroup and
replenish themselves in order tobe able to be there for their
(30:30):
friend who's a victim ghostingthem is, again, another form of
abandonment, which victim doesnot need, but also the victim
may not understand what thefriend is actually going through
or the family member might begoing through watching her go
through all this at the sametime over and over again. So
(30:50):
it's that friend, and thatfamily taking a step back and
just like regaining their owngrounding
Kira Yakubov (30:57):
yea
Michele Finneran (30:58):
and their own type of replenishment if you
will, in order to fill their cupagain. So they can be more they
can be more or less stilleffective for their friend slash
Kira Yakubov (31:10):
Yeah. So it sounds like kind of just being there to
victim.
hear them to support themempathetically, and to
understand what they're goingthrough it without necessarily
telling them to leave bashingthem, you know, pointing him in
the direction of support, butalso making sure that they take
care of themselves and not getburned out to a point where they
no longer want to interact withthem. And it sounds like kind of
(31:31):
setting those boundaries tolike, listen, like after all
these conversations, it feelsrepetitive, I feel frustrated, I
feel hurt watching you gothrough this. I have to take a
break from talking about thissometimes. So I can continue
showing up for you when you needme.
Michele Finneran (31:45):
Exactly.
Exactly.
That can be tough tooThat's a really good encap.
absolutely it's very tough to
Kira Yakubov (31:50):
Yeah, set those boundaries. Because
you you don't really want to but
Michele Finneran (31:53):
you know, they're really good. So that's
you kind of have to for your ownmental health.
Kira, that's a really goodencapsulation of what exactly a
solid a summarized statement.
That's exactly what's happeningthere.
Kira Yakubov (32:09):
And so I did while I was reading your book, it
actually kind of surprised me alittle bit to learn more about
the mother daughterrelationship, to see how that
might influence or impact avictim being victimized later on
in life or like how youmentioned sometimes like
subconsciously being attractedto an abusive partner, can you
share a little bit more aboutwhat that looks like in that
(32:32):
important dynamic between amother and daughter.
Michele Finneran (32:34):
So the same sex parent is always probably a
very important parent toidentify with and relate to. And
what I what I realized, goingthrough the interviews with a
lot of these survivors is metmost of them all of them. I
would think I thought going in Ihad my own biases, obviously, we
(32:56):
you do when you do research, youwould think that there would be
issue with the mother with I'msorry, with the daughter, Father
relationship,
Kira Yakubov (33:03):
that's what I thought,
Michele Finneran (33:04):
but it's not.
it was always the motherdaughter relationship. That was
always impaired, every singlewoman that I interviewed, had a
disruptive relationship withtheir mother. And what I found
was in the mother, the motherrelationship with the daughter,
the mother was physically viablefor the daughter, tangibly
(33:26):
babysits can give money, placesplace to live, transportation,
childcare, whatever the case maybe, what was significant that
was not there is the emotionalsupport that the victim actually
needed from their mother. Andthat that emotional
unavailability and almostnarcissistic mother made it
(33:50):
prevalent for the daughter toseek out a different type of
intimate partner that theyweren't finding that they found
that that that was voided out intheir mother daughter
relationship.
Kira Yakubov (34:06):
That's so fascinating to think about,
because I thought the same asyou started thinking might be
the relationship with the Fatheror having a controlling, you
know, father figure that way.
But it sounds like not havingthat nurturing, emotional
connection and security, as adaughter with your mother is so
significant in how you viewyourself, how you view other
relationships and what you'relooking for when you're dating
(34:28):
somebody. So it almost soundslike exactly
if they didn't receive the loveand security and self esteem
through that parent, they'regoing to search and work hard to
find someone who can providethat. And if we're on the
opposite end, if this is apartner who is controlling or
(34:49):
manipulative can easily takeadvantage of someone who may
feel that way about themselvesor who may be lacking that
security and love from theirparents or their mother
specifically.
Michele Finneran (35:01):
Exactly, exactly.
And so that mother daughterrelationship is so very
important to establish. And, youknow, a lot of a lot of my
survivors that I interviewedjust did not have that emotional
availability available to themin rearing. And they also, many
of the victims that were raisingup in their households saw their
(35:24):
mom, as victims as well,
Kira Yakubov (35:26):
sure
Michele Finneran (35:27):
that learned helplessness that they've
learned from their, from theirmother, in their own domestic
violence situation. And abusiverelationship was also a learned
kind of behavior that wastransgressed into the daughter.
Kira Yakubov (35:42):
And that's really unfortunate, because it kind of
goes into this generationaltrauma and abuse is that what we
see and experience in our homeis normalized, right? Like, even
if we go out into the world andrecognize that it might not be
that way, everywhere, it feelsnormal, and it feels acceptable
to some degree, for us torepeat, and to have those
(36:02):
beliefs about ourselves, or whowe align with kind of inner
identity within our home.
Michele Finneran (36:07):
Exactly We are, we are creatures of habit.
And we are creatures offamiliarity. And even though it
may be dysfunctional, wegravitate to what is familiar,
even though it may be unhealthy,dysfunctional and wrong. We
gravitate to one that'sfamiliar. And so that's that you
will see that generational cycleof violence, and traumatization
(36:30):
happen from passed down fromgeneration from woman to woman
in the family.
Kira Yakubov (36:35):
And so it's tough, because, you know, the mother
was abused, right? Like this isalso a victim, who this is now
being passed on to theirdaughter, have you any of the
women that you interview, likewhat that was like if they had
children are what that felt likefor them to recognize that how
much power and responsibility isalso on them for their children
(36:56):
by seeing them vicariouslyliving through that as well,
Michele Finneran (36:59):
exactly. And so what the what the daughter
had to do with their ownchildren, is they had to
recognize consciously aconscious recognition that what
they saw in their own family oforigin they did not like, and
they weren't going to perpetrateit over and over again. So they
made a staple and a decisonearly on in their year raising
(37:22):
up that they were not going todo this to their children. And
they made it when they make thecall, we made a conscious choice
is something that you disliked,for so long in your past, you
then make a conscious choice tobreak that cycle.
Kira Yakubov (37:39):
And that's pretty powerful. So even even if
victims who have children leaveat a certain point, while the
kids are still smaller, at somepoint, they're able to recognize
and see that their mom waspowerful and strong enough to
exit this situation. So that initself is also empowering for
the children to recognize thatyou don't have to be a victim,
right? You can move through thiswith the proper support and help
(38:01):
and it has to be a veryconscious effort on your part.
Michele Finneran (38:05):
Absolutely.
Kira Yakubov (38:06):
This book was so informative, thank you for
writing this. I mean readingthis was so helpful for me to
recognize as a professional, butpersonally to like, wow, there
was some relationships that Iwent through that were kind of
questionable that I would havenever thought about because it
didn't look the way it looked onTV or there wasn't violence
involved.
Michele Finneran (38:25):
That's why women, not to discredit victims,
and not to discredit theirexperiences or their narratives,
sometimes don't realize thatthey're in when they're in it,
you know, it's when you step outof the situation or out of the
relationship, then you begin torealize what a toxic situation
this might have been for you.
Kira Yakubov (38:46):
It's getting space away from that to kind of be
more objective, like take a stepback. Because when we're in it,
right, like, that's whytherapists can't be a therapist
to someone they know, or liketheir family or friends. Because
we're too involved, we're tooinvested. It's not objective
anymore. But when you take astep back and distance yourself
from that experience, you canstart to look at it a little bit
more objectively and like gain adifferent perspective. And that
(39:10):
whole process sounds likegrieving within itself to
recognize that you've been inthis relationship that you
didn't even realize was abusive.
And now you are and now you'regetting out of it. Like that
takes a lot of strength to beable to do that.
Michele Finneran (39:22):
Yes, and resiliency.
Kira Yakubov (39:24):
Absolutely
Michele Finneran (39:25):
I mean, these women, all these will women all
have exhibited the same type ofresiliency, that one character
trait of resiliency and beingable to stand up on their own
eventually, through formal andinformal supports. It was the
key for these women getting outof their toxic abusive
relationships
Kira Yakubov (39:44):
that's so powerful. That sounds like them
being able to find their ownstrength and power and gain
control of their own finances,their own situations, make
decisions and trust themselvesto make these decisions to is
really powerful and how havethat respect for themselves.
Michele Finneran (40:03):
biggest love that they can give themselves
that they discover forthemselves. And that in itself
is a gift and a journey withself that is enbarking on a
(40:23):
beautiful relationship on it'sown
Kira Yakubov (40:26):
absolutely, and that stays with you forever,
because that's you and yourself,that's, that never goes away,
Michele Finneran (40:31):
never goes away, you'll never you'll never,
you're your own loyalty, you'reyour own best friend, you have
to shake your shake your self,shake your hands with yourself
as as being a friend and a purseof self compassion, love for
your own self.
Kira Yakubov (40:47):
are there any for listeners, whether they are
recognizing that they might bein an abusive relationship? Or
no, or for, you know, informalsupports? Are there some
resources or things that you'dbe able to share for people that
they could reach out to whetherit's online or in shelters or
anything like that, to helppeople kind of find this?
Michele Finneran (41:07):
Absolutely.
What I can do Kira is I have alist of National Domestic
Violence resources is a, it'slike a page long, I can email it
to you and send it to you. Soyou can put it all within your
podcast.
Kira Yakubov (41:19):
Thank you, that will be really helpful. And I
can add that in the show notesfor everybody.
Michele Finneran (41:23):
Perfect.
Kira Yakubov (41:24):
So Michele, can you share what's coming up new
for you and your practice?
Michele Finneran (41:27):
Well, with the research that I'm doing, I do
what I do with the research,which was with what the PhD is
typically for, is I take theresearch and I use it to use
application into my clinicalpractice. So not only am I a
clinician, and a practicepractitioner, that I practice,
mental health and skills andtechniques to help decrease
(41:50):
mental health symptoms, but alsoresearcher to kind of research
statistics topics that need tobe more like that need to be
more researched out. And that'swhy I decided to just work on my
next writing project is when Irealized what some of the things
(42:10):
that were going on for firstresponders though, that what
they were dealing with, withcompassion fatigue during
COVID-19. And so that theresearch along with the
application is what I like to dobest
Kira Yakubov (42:24):
awesome. And where can follower or the audience
members find you if they want toreach out to you to work with
you.
Michele Finneran (42:31):
They can reach me on my website, it's
www.veccandassociates.com. Andthere's a tab there that you can
join that says Contact Us, andyou contact me directly on there
it goes right to my email.
Kira Yakubov (42:47):
Perfect. Michele, thank you so much for being a
guest today. This was valuableand very insightful information
and I appreciate you sharingyour expertise with us.
Michele Finneran (42:55):
Thank you, Kira, for inviting me on your
wonderful podcast. I reallyappreciate you. Thank you so
much for having me.
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