June 7, 2023 • 40 mins
Explore the intricate world of Consensual Non-Monogamy (CNM) with Courtney Burkhardt, Marriage and Family Therapist, on this enlightening episode of the Heal Your Roots Podcast. Unravel the depths of this unconventional relationship framework, and dive into candid discussions about the complexities of sex therapy, communication, and trust.
Discover the story behind Courtney's journey into the realm of sex therapy, inspired by her early interest and subsequent training experiences. Learn how she examines her own thoughts and feelings through sexual attitude assessments, and understand the profound influence of these insights in her therapeutic interactions.
The episode delves into the core aspects of CNM, illuminating its underpinnings, and presenting a holistic view of the community. Courtney shares her extensive research on the topic from her graduate school days, providing an analytical lens to this contemporary relationship paradigm. She elucidates on the practice of emotionally-focused couples therapy in non-monogamous relationships, and explains the hierarchical and egalitarian forms of polyamory.
The conversation also addresses the realities of transitioning from monogamous to non-monogamous relationships, the nuances of polyamory and swinging, and the distinctive contrasts between open and monogamous relationships. It further examines the intersection of chronic illness, trauma history, and mismatched sex drives with non-monogamous partnerships, underscoring the vital role of trust and clear communication.
Courtney also speaks candidly about the challenges couples may face in non-monogamous relationships, such as setting boundaries, crafting living contracts, and overcoming the stigma and scarcity mindset. The difference between cheating and non-monogamy is also discussed, offering listeners a fresh perspective on this often misunderstood topic.
Towards the end, Courtney shares valuable recommendations, including the book "Ethical Slut", and introduces the Agape app, a tool designed to aid couples in enhancing communication. As the episode wraps up, listeners learn that Courtney is currently accepting new clients for sex therapy, providing an opportunity to benefit from her unique expertise.
In this episode, enhance your understanding of consensual non-monogamy, gain a fresh perspective on relationship dynamics, and discover the healing power of open conversations and clear communication in fostering healthy, fulfilling relationships. Whether you're a therapist, a student, or just curious about the realm of non-monogamous relationships, this episode is a treasure trove of insights and knowledge.
Check out the rest of the Heal Your Roots Podcast episodes at our website.
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(00:00):
consensual non monogamy ispretty much exactly what it
(00:03):
sounds like it is when you arenot kind of bound to a
traditional monogamous style ofrelationship you can be sexually
intimate, emotionally intimatewith just more than one other
personHi, I'm Kira Yakubov Licensed
Marriage and Family Therapistand Founder of Heal Your Roots
(00:25):
Wellness practice. Everyepisode, we talk with a
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their approaches andspecialties, and also their
journey of becoming a therapist.
In this podcast will uncover adeeper look at the world of
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You'll meet the therapist ofHeal Your Roots Wellness
practice, and trusted colleaguesfrom the community tackling
(00:47):
mental well being or your go toNetwork for practical and
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Hi, welcome back. I'm so excitedfor today's episode. With us we
have Courtney Burkhardt. She's aMarriage and Family Therapist
(01:10):
and one of our newest therapiststhat Heal Your Roots Wellness to
join us for any thank you somuch for being on with us today.
Yeah, thank you. I'm happy to behere.
How you became a therapist andwhy you became a therapist.
Yes. So I originally wanted tobecome a therapist after talking
with a family friend, when I wasa kid. And I remember having
(01:32):
this whole conversation, I waslike, you know, maybe in middle
school trying to figure out whatI wanted to do with the rest of
my life. And she was saying thatshe's a marriage family
therapist. I'm asking herquestions about it. And she's
like, do you like to talk topeople and 12 year old little
girl means like, of course, Ilove to talk to people. So and
that was kind of it from there,it was pretty set on this track.
(01:55):
And I kind of came to the ideaof sex therapy, specifically
while I was in college, justkind of exploring different
avenues within marriage, familytherapy. And yeah, that's kind
of how I got to be here.
That's awesome. I love that youalready knew from such a young
age that that was like, and thatyou were even thinking about it
like what do I want to doforever?
(02:15):
Yes, I tend to be a little moretype A with some of that stuff.
But it served me well. And I'mhappy that I stayed consistent.
I really love this job.
And so how has the sex therapytraining been for you? Like,
what about going through thelike, whether it was graduate
school, or some of the coursesthat kind of made you want to
lean a little bit more into thatas well?
Yes. So I think my interest insex therapy started when I was
(02:38):
in college, and I started takinga bunch of like, psychology of
women and gender studies typecourses. And that really
appealed to me and talking aboutdifferent aspects of gender and
sexuality. And then that kind ofpropelled me into choosing the
sex therapy track at ThomasJefferson University, where I
got to really expand on thateducation and figure out exactly
(03:00):
kind of what I wanted to dowithin the field.
I love that. Yeah. When I was ingraduate school, and I was going
for marriage and family therapy,we only had, I think, one human
sexuality class, and I lovedthat class. And then once I
graduate and started workingwith couples, you know, sex
comes up. Like it's inevitable.
It's a huge part of therelationship. And I was like,
why did we not learn more aboutthis? So it made me want to go
(03:22):
back and learn more about it aswell. So I went to Council for
Relationships, which I think ispart of Jefferson, right? Which
is the program that you were apart of too
yeah, yes, I had my graduateexperience at Thomas Jefferson
University. And then I did myinternship with Council for
Relationships. And I had awonderful experience with both.
(03:44):
They were phenomenal.
Yeah, well, awesome program,right, like a huge shout out to
Council for Relationships,because they really, really let
therapists like, learn aboutobviously all of like, the
information, but a huge part ofit is also like understanding
ourselves within that and likeexploring our own sexuality and
gender and like our biases, andreally understanding like, what
(04:05):
that means for us, so that itfeels comfortable and feels safe
for us to work with clients aswell.
Oh, absolutely. And I think evengoing through like the SAR
experiences, the Sexual AttitudeReassessment was so so helpful
of like, examining my ownthoughts, feelings, things that
I had, like really neverconsidered before and how that
might show up in the therapyroom.
(04:27):
What was it like for you becauseI remember telling my friends
like, Oh, I'm just watching pornat 9am in class.
Yes, I had that same exactconversation. I was like, I
think we're about to go andwatch porn with our professors.
And I, you know, did it andthat's kind of what it is kind
of not, but it was definitely avery funny conversation that I
(04:50):
had to have with some familymembers about what I was doing
on whatever dayYeah, that's awesome. I always
love that watching otherpeople's reactions to hearing
that.
Yes. Yeah.
So through this process, I knowyou've had experience working
with couples, individuals andeverything, what has been
something that you've gravitatedtowards that you really want to
spend more time focusing on withclients that you find is like
(05:14):
kind of like your specialty oryou want to specialize more in?
Yes. So one of the first kind ofareas that I really got into
working with with sex therapy isworking with people in the
Consensual Non-Monogamy (CNM)community. Just by like weird
happenstance, the first bunch ofclients that I got were
following me consensualnon-monogamy community. And that
(05:35):
was really exciting, but also alittle intimidating as that was
something that I, you know, hadpretty much no knowledge of
going in. And so I reallyenjoyed working with this
community and kind of learningmy own thoughts educating myself
throughout that process, whichwas really cool. And the other
kind of area that I really haveenjoyed learning, learning more
(05:58):
about and working with over thelast year and a half has been
couples that are going throughlike a major life transition,
and then that are workingtowards rebuilding their
emotional and sexual intimacyfollowing any kind of transition
or major change.
So both like really big andinteresting, fascinating topics,
(06:18):
and lifestyles and liketransitions and things that we
kind of all go through in lifeat some point or another, at
least with rebuilding likeemotional and sexual intimacy
after a huge life change. Andfor a lot of people the the
consensual non-monogamy or likebeing monogamous, like a
monogamous ish, right? Like allthe different kinds of terms
that fall under that is superfascinating. I remember also
(06:43):
having a couple when I firststarted too that was in the
consensual non monogamycommunity. I was like, wow, I
haven't learned about this. Ithink that's kind of the fun
part of being a therapist, too,is that, you know, we learn a
bunch of stuff, and then we havesomebody or a couple come in,
right. Wow. Okay. Now I'm goingto read a lot of stuff,
(07:03):
familiarize myself with thesetopics, understand what's going
on for these individuals, and beable to kind of help them. But
also super fascinating for us aslike the professionals or the
the health care providers on theother end, too.
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Ifeel like I'm from a, you know,
moral conservative area. I wentto college undergrad in a rural
(07:23):
conservative area, andconsensual non-monogamy was not
even like something that I hadheard of. So I was like, wow,
this is like, really cool andinteresting. And something I had
never thought was possible. Thisis amazing.
So completely, like out of thebubble, or the realm of even
like hearing about it. That'sawesome.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's, I'verun into that a few times with
(07:45):
like, different topics withinsex therapy. And it has been
such a joy, kind of expanding mymindset and my knowledge base
over the last two years.
I love that, right? Because wegrow professionally, but also
personally, and it helps us kindof look at life and ourselves
and relationships. It's such anopen and different wait. So
yeah, yes, I know. I am sure youwent through the same thing of
(08:08):
going through school, but youcan feel like, yes, your
professional self is growing.
But personally, I'm like, I am adifferent person than I was two
years ago.
Absolutely.
In the best way.
Aww, and so I remember yousharing that you actually did a
couple of your research projectsor something in graduate school
on consensual non monogamy, areyou able to share a little bit
(08:29):
more about like, what that was,like looking into detail for
what you got from that.
Yeah, it was really cool. So Iwanted to kind of do these do
that topic as a few differentresearch projects to kind of see
how consensual non monogamycould be blended with emotion
focused therapy, emotion focusedcouples therapy. And I very
(08:52):
quickly came to the realizationthat there was like, no research
out there. And that was like,Oh, no. Okay, so then, what I
ended up doing was I found like,different articles and kind of
was able to create like a puzzleframe or like a patchwork
situation of how you can useemotion focused couples therapy,
(09:13):
when working with consensual nonmonogamy, and even when you're
dealing with, like triads, ormore than one or more than two
people in a, in a relationship.
Like, this is so cool andinteresting. And I, as I was
like, kind of just learningthis, for my own knowledge of
like, just working with clients.
I was like, I should share thiswith class. And I should like,
(09:33):
figure out how to do a projecton this because that would be
really great.
Huh, that's awesome. you createda whole new little section and
niche for the research in ourfield
Yeah, and I hope that I hopeit's useful, I hope. I hope
people can find something goodout of it.
I'm sure absolutely. And so forlisteners that are kind of
(09:56):
listening to this episode. Wouldyou be able to share a little
bit about consensualnon-monogamy? What that looks
like? What that means? Differentlike forms of that so that
people can have a betterunderstanding.
Yeah, absolutely. So consensualnon monogamy is pretty much
exactly what it sounds like itis when you are not kind of
(10:16):
bound to a traditionalmonogamous style of
relationship, you can besexually intimate, emotionally
intimate with just more than oneother person. So there's a few
different ways that people mightpractice this in their own
lives. So that kind of fallsinto two major groups. The first
(10:36):
is like hierarchical, consensualnon monogamy. And that's going
to look like where you have aprimary partner. And then you
might have secondary partners.
So your primary partner might beyour person who is your spouse,
you might live in the same home,share finances, raise kids
together, and then yoursecondary partners might be
people that you still care forvery deeply, you just don't
(10:58):
really have them as an activepart of your day to day life.
That doesn't mean they're anyless important. It's just that
they fill a different role thanthe primary partner. And then
the kind of other major form ofconsensual non monogamy is just,
it's more egalitarian, where allof the partners are more equal.
So you may have like, more thanone person that is that you're
(11:22):
living with, you may have kidsaltogether, share in finances
all together, there's less of ahierarchy, less of a structure,
and more just community, sharingeverything all together.
I love that. And even likewithin those two categories,
there's so many that fallunderneath that. I liked that
you broke that up into those twostructures is that there was a
(11:45):
hierarchy where there's like aprimary partner, where the two
of you decide kind of theparameters and what that looks
like outside of yourrelationship versus the other
group where it's everyone isequal, whether it's sexual,
romantic, platonic, there is nopriority over a particular
partner. It's very open andfluid in that way, which both
(12:06):
are pretty interesting and cool,and have their own kind of
parameters and boundaries andeverything that individuals have
to work through to make thatwork for them.
Yeah, there can be a lot ofreally good things and really
beautiful things that can comeout of consensual non monogamy.
But you're right, there are somechallenges. And especially if
(12:27):
you're transitioning from atraditional monogamous
relationship into consensual nonmonogamy, there's going to be
hiccups, because it's a prettybig change. And that's just what
happens in life. But so long asthere is good communication and
clear boundaries, and you'reable to be open and honest with
one another, you can make thattransition as smoothly as
(12:50):
possible.
Yeah. So I wanted to talk alittle bit about more like the
sub pieces of each of those two,because I think this is a really
big topic that can feelintimidating for a lot of people
or like you said, may have neverheard of it and may think like,
it's just based on sex orwanting to have sex with other
people. When I think that, yes,that's a piece of it, right?
(13:12):
Just like how it's a piece ofany relationship. But it's so
much more than that. Right? Likeeven research shows that
individuals receive emotionalsupport, like societal support
different roles, their needs aremet in different ways. They're
fulfilled in different ways,they get to explore their own
sexuality in a different way.
Right? So it's so much moreinvolved than just sex, but sex
(13:34):
is an important part and also,you know, something that is
available through thisrelationship structure too.
it reminds me of something Ialways heard growing up that sex
is a important part ofrelationships, but it's not the
only part. There's a lot ofother things going on, you're
dealing with everyone'semotional needs, physical needs,
(13:59):
family needs, everything. We'renot talking about. You know,
it's we look at allrelationships as a system and to
just talk about the sexualcomponent would be ignoring
everything else going on there.
Yeah, and really minimizing thefulfilling parts and rewarding
parts of relationship outside ofjust that.
Yeah, absolutely.
(14:20):
And so I think that some of theother types of non monogamy or
consensual non monogamy, right?
If it's within the hierarchy,right, is if it's monogamish
right? So some couples may havelet's say, they can have like an
open relationship where one orboth partners outside of their
primary relationship may have anemotional or sexual relationship
(14:41):
with someone else. But they youknow, talk about the parameters
that's kind of something that'sdecided on if it's okay to be
emotional and or sexual. Can youname a couple of other ones
underneath like the structural.
not the structural, thehierarchy, relationship ones for
non monogamy?
Yeah, you might see It's like,swinging or polyamory I think
(15:06):
sometimes the, the actuallanguage may be kind of picked
up by the person you're workingwith. And a lot of these terms
I've found at least might beused somewhat interchangeably.
And for that reason, I thinklike, it's helpful for me at
least I don't want to speak foreveryone out there. But it's
(15:27):
helpful to just kind of look at,okay, we're dealing with
something in the consensual nonmonogamy umbrella ,and however
people want to define theirindividual relationship is kind
of up to them and whatever theyfeel most comfortable with
Absolutely it can you share alittle bit of like the general
idea around polyamory andswinging so people have a better
(15:48):
idea, because I obviously I knowthat each structure is going to
have its unique features andthings that are decided and
agreed upon within therelationship or individuals.
Yes. So in most cases, you mightsee like a couple that has been
together, and they may be anestablished couple. And then for
(16:08):
whatever reason, they may feelthat their sexual needs are not
necessarily being fulfilledentirely within this
relationship and want to open upsome doors to share their sexual
experiences and emotionalexperiences with other people.
And that can be a really greatthing for kind of lighting up
(16:29):
that spark and a marriage again.
So yeah, so that can look likeswinging for some couples. So
this is really just to let theaudience members know, like a
better idea. And understanding,because we kind of have an idea.
We know we work with people,people who come in or already
have their own, whether it'slabels or understanding of this.
But for listeners who may notknow, right? like, swinging is
(16:50):
when the couple has a sexualrelationship with another couple
where they may swap, and thatthey're present with each other.
It's not necessarily that it isa separate sexual experience,
although sometimes it may be,right? like in different rooms
or different places, but it's anexperience kind of that they
want to share together as acouple.
(17:12):
Exactly. And then you might lookat an open relationship, which
may be a little more separate,where if you're looking at a,
let's say, a heterosexualmarried couple, with an open
relationship, they may seek outpartners separate from one
another and do that on their owntime. And they may just keep
(17:32):
their dating life separate fromtheir married life a little
more.
And then we have polyamorousright where that is, it's
actually a relationship withmore than one person. So like
you said, it could be a separatepartner. So like one partner
within the relationship mighthave their own second partner,
or all three of them might be ina romantic and or sexual
(17:53):
relationship together. And theymay not date other people, or
each partner may have anotherpartner, right? So it kind of
just depends on how they want towork that out.
And that's really exciting,because that's when you get into
that, that non hierarchical,type of consensual non monogamy
where everything is a littlemore, you know, equal and fluid
with one another.
(18:14):
Yeah. And so have you found someparticular main reasons or
benefits for whether it's amonogamous relationship to want
to explore and expand into a nonmonogamous relationship or for
individuals to participate inone just from the start?
I can't necessarily speakregarding individuals I, I
(18:36):
honestly haven't had as muchexperience in working with
individuals in the CNMcommunity. But I think for
couples, I've seen a number ofreally interesting reasonings
for beginning to engage in thatcommunity, like one that's come
up a few times has been thingslike chronic illness, and
perhaps even like a traumahistory where, for whatever
(18:59):
reason, the couples may not beable to engage in sex and
intimacy in the way that theymight want to at that time. And
so expanding their relationshipand opening that up may be
really helpful for one or bothpartners to have their needs met
in another way. You could alsosee just people trying to try
new things with one another, andexpand their sexual relationship
(19:22):
by opening up their relationshipas a whole, which has been
really cool to see.
Yeah, so it's interesting. I'mglad you brought up the like the
piece whether it's trauma orchronic illness, right, because
I know that so I see a lot ofcouples where there might be a
mismatched sex drive, onepartner might be more like a
higher desire for sex while theother partner, whether that
(19:45):
might be a traumatic backgroundor a chronic illness or
something that has occurred forthem, that that becomes a sore
spot in their relationship andso much focus is placed on that
and so much pressure that thatbecomes, it just eats up the
relationship. And so being ableto take that pressure off this
one person to fulfill that rolefor you, and allow the
(20:08):
relationship to focus more onthe pieces in the strings that
are working and knowing thatthey can receive that need
somewhere else, I thinkincreases their intimacy,
emotionally, and sometimes evensexually as well. Because, you
know, we know that pressure isnot a sexy thing. It's
definitely a turnoff. Andfeeling like you're
disappointing your partnerconstantly, also doesn't help
(20:30):
that process either. So I'm gladyou brought that up, because it
does allow the couple to gettheir needs met from other
individuals. And once thatpressure is taken away, it
actually adds so much more tothe relationship and appreciate
one another a lot more tooOh, yeah, absolutely. And I
think especially when you'relooking at maybe trauma, for
example, when you're talkingabout someone who like they
(20:54):
really do need to go on theirown healing journey from
whatever may have happened,taking off that pressure of
their partner wanting to havesex can be so helpful with their
with their own process ofAnd so what about some, whether
it's reasons or a point in thehealing.
relationship where exploringthat or going into that is not
(21:17):
helpful or not recommended orbeneficial? If you've seen that
in relationshipsI think there's there's a number
of reasons why it could not workout well. I think people who may
already be like, pretty highconflict and are disconnected. I
think starting off withdisjointed communication in the
relationship, and low emotionalintimacy, when I think all of
(21:41):
these you to go into consensualnon monogamy in any of these
forms, you really need such astrong foundation, you need to
have like, your communication onpoint. And it's okay to have
some hiccups every now andagain. But if you don't have
that foundation, like already inplace, then it's going to
(22:01):
crumble and crack away veryquickly.
Yeah, that's a huge one right iscommunication, as I learned
through this process, too. Andfor couples, or, you know, the
relationship structures whereit's consensual non monogamy,
the communication and honestyand trust and respect, I found
(22:22):
is a lot of times at such ahigher level than a lot of
relationships in a monogamousrelationship. Because in order
for this to work and bebeneficial for everybody, which
makes it consensual is that youconstantly have to be
communicating, and communicatingin a very safe and effective
way. And being really open andhonest
(22:43):
with that that honesty piece isso crucial. like that is if you
cannot honestly communicate withone another, and you're still
holding things back from yourpartner, then you're not going
to be able to articulate yourboundaries very clearly, you're
not going to be able to advocatefor yourself and your partner
need to maybe restructure thingsat points. So making sure
(23:05):
abundance of communication andabundance of honesty is so so so
important.
Absolutely. And beingcomfortable with hearing things
that don't make you feel good.
Right? Or like triggeringjealousy or understanding that
your partner may be enjoyingthis other person or this other
aspect in a different or moreway than they are with you.
(23:27):
Right. Like if you are not goodat receiving feedback, or
constructive criticism, this isgoing to be really difficult
because it's going to beconstantly pushing those
triggers and those buttons foryou, which is going to create an
unsafe environment, which willpromote lying or hiding.
Yeah, it seems as though from atleast an outsider perspective
(23:51):
looking in that you need to havea thick skin and you need to
feel safe with your partnerwhere you can, you know, share
some of your own insecurities,or theirs and you can have that
have that safe space, and beopen to hearing from one another
about all of thatYea. So a lot of security in
your relationship. But I thinkalso as an individual, a lot of
(24:13):
security and confidence withinyourself because it's not for
everybody, right? Like, I thinkit takes a particular person or
a particular process to get to apoint where you feel comfortable
and safe knowing that what I canprovide this person in my
relationship is enough and ifthey need something else outside
(24:33):
of it, that's okay. And thatdoesn't say something negative
about me or make me unlovable orunworthy. It's just that some
people can love multiple peopleat once, or the sexual emotional
relationships increase ourintimacy, not take away from it.
Exactly. And I think one nice,paraphrasing a quote I saw a
(24:58):
while ago, but it's Not at allthat you're not enough of a
person in a polyamorous orconsensual non monogamy
relationship, it's that maybethe other person just has so
much love to give your cup maybefilled up and they are still
kind of overflowing and want toshare that with another person.
(25:19):
And I thought that was reallybeautiful kind of reframe of all
that.
Yeah, I really like that. That'sinteresting, because there are
very loving people, and they cangive so much love. And they can
give that to multiple people orin different ways as well.
Yeah, absolutely. It's really,really cool kind of getting to
learn more and see how thesecouples work and see that there
(25:41):
is so much love in all of theserelationships.
I think a tough part for somepeople or a lot of people,
right? Because this is verystill very stigmatized, even
though at this point, it's themost accepted, it's probably
been ever in any time inhistory, at least in our Western
culture, right? Because there'sindigenous cultures that have
been doing this for so manyyears. But is that this
(26:02):
understanding or this script oflike a hetero heterosexual
normative monogamousrelationship, that there's
almost like a scarcity mindset,right? Like, this has to be my
person, and I have to be able tofulfill all these needs for you
and if i don't, you're gonnaleave me. And that there's like
this fear that if I'm notenough, or they're not enough,
we will leave or we'll cheat. Soit's constantly being scared of
(26:26):
the partner leaving or having todo more, instead of recognizing
that it's kind of impossible forone person to fulfill all the
needs of their partner. That'swhy we have friendships, that's
why we have careers and work andmentors and school. Like, I
think that people can acceptthat piece of it. But it might
be difficult to accept that theymight have another romantic
(26:46):
partner in that way, too.
Yeah. And you kind of hit itexactly of, we already have
multiple relationships in ourlives, we, we don't expect our
romantic partners to fill everysingle role. And even within
having a romantic partner,people may just have a lot of
expectations and a lot of needs,that maybe not every single
(27:10):
person can fill every singleone. And it's okay to have more
than one partner, if that's whatyou need, and that's what can
benefit you and yourrelationship.
I think a couple reasons that itmight not be beneficial for some
couples, as well is feeling likeit has to save the relationship,
or almost feeling pressure, likewell, my partner wants this, I
(27:33):
don't really want to but again,I don't want to lose them. So
I'll just do this to fulfilltheir need. And kind of white
knuckle it and hope it goeswell. When those are not the
best reasons, right? It's almostlike don't have a baby to save
the relationship, like don't doan external thing to save the
relationship. Work on it first,and then try something
(27:54):
different.
Like we were saying before youneed, you need that strong
foundation, you need to becomfortable and safe with one
another before you do this kindof really different thing
together. And if you if you'reat a point where you're like,
grappling and trying to save therelationship, making any major
life change to try to staytogether is not really going to
(28:18):
work out the best maybeYea and also trying to avoid
cheating or avoid your partnercheating or accepting that they
want to be with other peopleright? Because they're they're
very different things. I thinksometimes people confuse
cheating and consensual nonmonogamy as something similar or
overlapping, and like you'vementioned multiple times is the
biggest difference in featuresis that it's consensual.
(28:39):
Cheating is not consensual.
Cheating is something a persondecides to do behind someone's
back. Non monogamousrelationships is everyone's on
the same page. I mean, there canbe cheating within non
monogamous relationships, if youstep outside kind of the
parameters of the things youagreed on or negotiated or hide
things from your partner. Right?
It's really the feature of lyingand hiding that's so big in this
(29:00):
piece, Right. So long as you arecommunicating upfront with your
partner, being honest andaddressing boundary violations
as they occur, and setting clearboundaries. Consensual non
monogamy is the opposite ofcheating and infidelity. You
know, it still can exist thereas well as in any monogamous
(29:24):
relationship. But it's reallythat lying or dishonest, that
lack of honesty that that reallysets that apart.
Yea. And so what are some kindof struggles that you've seen or
challenges for individuals orcouples within non monogamous
relationships that generally itworks right, but as any
(29:47):
relationship friendship, familyromantic, there's going to be
some struggles, some common onesthat you might have seen pop up.
I think the biggest one thatI've probably seen has been
boundary communication. Fromlike the jump, making sure that
you have like a, a clear cutkind of set of rules, making
sure that everyone is aware,agreeing, and consenting to
(30:10):
those rules. And that can be avery challenging and lengthy
process, just kind of gettingall of that setup. And then that
might hit on some soft spots foranyone in that relationship of,
because, you know, you'retalking about really intimate
details of Okay, so do you wantpartners to be in our home? Yes
(30:31):
or No? Will they interact withour children or families? Or how
are we going to navigatedifferent social situations?
There's so many complexquestions that people may not
have even considered yet. Andkind of ironing all of that out
as early on in the process aspossible can really set you up
(30:51):
for success going forward. Butit is a that is a difficult
process that I've helped peoplewith navigating and kind of
going through, which has beenreally exciting and interesting.
YeahI think, I think the other big
thing, too, that I'veencountered is when the
boundaries may not have beenclearly set up, and you get
boundary violations where oneperson will be hurt that some
(31:13):
action that may have gone onthat they felt they may have
been okay with but then as itturns out, no, it was not going
to work out and kind ofnavigating through some of
those. Those boundary breachesthere.
Yes, that's an interesting one,because it's almost like you
gotta set up all I don't want tosay the rules. I mean, some of
(31:34):
them are rules. Some of them areparameters, like agreed upon
things. And you really have tobe thoughtful, right? This isn't
like, Okay, go see somebody andlet me know how it goes and have
fun. I mean, you could do that,right? Some people do that. But
then they kind of run into theseissues where well, how are we
going to handle it in thiscircumstance? Or how's it going
to feel if someone we know findsout? Right? Or if it becomes
(31:57):
more than just emotional, ormore than just sexual? And what
you're saying is reallyimportant is that even if you
agreed upon it, thinking thatthat's how you would feel in
theory, and then it actuallyhappens, you're like, I don't
like how that how that feltinternally. I don't know if I
want to continue doing that. Andhaving to renegotiate, and re
(32:18):
discuss this again, and beingable to share what that felt
like for you and why it feltthat way. And deciding, okay, is
this something I just need toprocess to work through and then
I'll be okay? Or, you know,what, I don't think this is a
good part of the parametersanymore.
It is very, like, clear cut. AndI think one way that I almost
think of it as kind of likeyou're creating a living
(32:40):
contract between within therelationship over you kind of go
through and answer thesequestions. And then as needed,
you go through and revise andadd things take things away,
when different situations cropup, when new things new people
may enter the relationship. AndI think like, it may sound a
(33:01):
little silly, but the idea ofthat contract can be helpful in
just being so so so clear witheverything. And yeah, it can be
helpful for the communication tohave that, like, extremely
explicit like that.
Yeah, I don't think it's sillyat all. I think it's, I think,
You mentioned somethinginteresting which is like,
honestly, every couple shouldhave some, some level or some
(33:23):
degree of a contract, right?
Where it's an understanding ofthere's so many situations that
can come up that you don't knowexpectations, because I think a
lot of relationships,particularly monogamous ones is
we kind of have a lot ofassumptions about what we think
our partners should do, how theyshould act, how they should
feel, how we should act andfeel. And then things come up
that we didn't talk about, wedidn't think about, we thought
we'd be on the same page, andthen we're faced with it like,
(33:45):
oh, shit, we're not on the samepage at all. And it's kind of no
one's fault, because neither ofus talked about it. So we
wouldn't have known that towhat's going to happen between
you and your partner that thisbegin with. So I think it almost
sounds like having a weeklycheck in or a consistent check
in of, okay, this is thestructure, how do we feel about
this, maintaining that, hasmay just be something that
you've never considered and youanything come up in between,
(34:05):
like, do we want to changeanything? Do we feel good about
it? And just consistentlytalking
(34:26):
need to have that foundation of,you know, whatever it is, like
whether it's monogamousrelationships or consensually
non monogamous, you know, thefoundation of clear
communication and having theability to check in with your
partner and be able to talk itthrough and understand where
each of you are coming from, andreally listening to one another.
(34:48):
That's really important that Ithink a lot of people just kind
of overlook sometimes.
Yeah, these are like very, verycritical and essential skills
that help couples maintainhealthy relationships, like
they're skills, which meansthey're they can be learned,
they can be taught, it's notsomething we're born with, like,
this is a particular thing thatyou practice over time. And it's
(35:11):
unique with your partner, right?
Because good or effectivecommunication can look very
different from one couple toanother, based on their
emotional status, or theirattachment style, or the
communication style. So it'skind of always remembering that
every couple or everyrelationship is very unique to
them, because every person isunique, and has their own
experiences.
Yeah. And even looking at familybackgrounds, how, how they were
(35:36):
raised to communicate, how didwitness communication go on with
their grandparents, parents,aunts, uncles, brothers,
sisters, everyone in theirlives? What is their own
communication foundation? How isthat going to show up in the
present relationship is soimportant to kind of understand
and conceptualize what might begoing on here
(35:57):
Absolutely it informs so much ofhow we start relationships, and
maintain them Oh, absolutely.
There is a book that I wouldrecommend. I've had a lot of my
clients read this book that wasvery helpful. It's called
"Ethical Slut". And have youheard of that one?
Yes, I have. It's on my "To beread list".
(36:18):
So it's a phenomenal book. Ithelps couples or individuals
looking to be non monogamous,really have some of these deep
questions, right, and have someof these deep discussions about
what would this look like for usand kind of challenging some of
these biases or informedthoughts that we might have had
before and see things reallydifferently. And give kind of
(36:39):
practical tips and help on howto navigate this for the first
time. So if anyone's listeningwho is thinking about it,
starting it, "Ethical Slut" is areally good book for that.
That is definitely gettingpumped on my list. I will be
checking that one out soon.
Yeah. Is there anything that youlike to give clients? whether
(37:00):
it's like worksheets, oranything that you typically
give? Or is it more like insession, working it out
together?
make a lot of use of is liketechnology. So like, I like to
suggest a couple of differentapps to couples. So the one that
I really, really love is calledAgape. And this is like, so what
(37:24):
they do is they provide aquestion each day. And this is
more just like a generalcommunication exercise. And then
you each have the app, you eachkind of answer the question, and
they don't let you see yourpartner's answer until you've
answered the question yourself.
And then it'll be things like,how do you like to show
affection to your partner? Or ifyou had a million dollars, what
(37:45):
would you want to do together?
Like it ranges from silly tomore serious and some sweet, but
that's a really good likeconversation starter to begin
building up that intimatecomponent. And then the other
one is called the Official App.
And that one's really, reallygood for sexual communication.
It gives you like a list ofyes's or no's, different
(38:07):
activities you'd be interestedin. And that can be really
helpful for like, the consensualnon monogamy, negotiation, kink
negotiation or anything elsewhen you're starting up a new
relationship.
And when was that called? TheOfficial App?
Yeah,The Official App, that one's
cool. I've never heard that onebefore. I'll have to add that to
the list of things.
(38:29):
Yeah, I just saw that like,pretty recently, I think it's a
new app that I started followingtheir page on TikTok, and I was
like, this is going to be sohelpful, I'm going to recommend
this to every single person Icome across.
That's awesome. Yeah, so it'sreally great to have these
additional resources forindividuals or couples to go to,
right? Because we discussthings, we talk it out, we
(38:50):
process it, and then havingsomething outside of sessions to
really learn more about orpractice, especially with
something like this is veryhelpful, because it's not a one
time conversation, right? Likemajority of the time, these are
going to be conversations youhave follow up and follow up and
follow up. And, you know,checking in and maintaining. So
having this consistently whereyou check in or you learn more
(39:13):
about your partner, andnegotiate things as it goes is
really phenomenal for continuingthis process for couples.
Oh, yeah, of course. And, youknow, I love finding different
new apps that you you know,you've got it in the palm of
your hand all the time. Littletool to help you with your
relationship wherever you go.
It's great.
Yeah. And so I know we're comingto an end. I feel like we could
(39:35):
talk about this all day. But Iwanted to let the listeners know
that you are a new therapistthat Heal Your Roots Wellness,
and you'll be accepting newclients, individuals and couples
and for sex therapy. Is thereany final words that you'd like
to share with any listeners oranything before we hop off?
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope to meet some of you
guys soon.
Awesome. Thank you so much forbeing on today. Courtney, I
(39:57):
appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
consensual non monogamy ispretty much exactly what it
(00:03):
sounds like it is when you arenot kind of bound to a
traditional monogamous style ofrelationship you can be sexually
intimate, emotionally intimatewith just more than one other
personHi, I'm Kira Yakubov Licensed
Marriage and Family Therapistand Founder of Heal Your Roots
(00:25):
Wellness practice. Everyepisode, we talk with a
professional from the mentalhealth field to learn more about
their approaches andspecialties, and also their
journey of becoming a therapist.
In this podcast will uncover adeeper look at the world of
therapy from new perspectives.
You'll meet the therapist ofHeal Your Roots Wellness
practice, and trusted colleaguesfrom the community tackling
(00:47):
mental well being or your go toNetwork for practical and
professional insight in mentalhealth. Subscribe for new
episode releases every otherWednesday.
Hi, welcome back. I'm so excitedfor today's episode. With us we
have Courtney Burkhardt. She's aMarriage and Family Therapist
(01:10):
and one of our newest therapiststhat Heal Your Roots Wellness to
join us for any thank you somuch for being on with us today.
Yeah, thank you. I'm happy to behere.
How you became a therapist andwhy you became a therapist.
Yes. So I originally wanted tobecome a therapist after talking
with a family friend, when I wasa kid. And I remember having
(01:32):
this whole conversation, I waslike, you know, maybe in middle
school trying to figure out whatI wanted to do with the rest of
my life. And she was saying thatshe's a marriage family
therapist. I'm asking herquestions about it. And she's
like, do you like to talk topeople and 12 year old little
girl means like, of course, Ilove to talk to people. So and
that was kind of it from there,it was pretty set on this track.
(01:55):
And I kind of came to the ideaof sex therapy, specifically
while I was in college, justkind of exploring different
avenues within marriage, familytherapy. And yeah, that's kind
of how I got to be here.
That's awesome. I love that youalready knew from such a young
age that that was like, and thatyou were even thinking about it
like what do I want to doforever?
(02:15):
Yes, I tend to be a little moretype A with some of that stuff.
But it served me well. And I'mhappy that I stayed consistent.
I really love this job.
And so how has the sex therapytraining been for you? Like,
what about going through thelike, whether it was graduate
school, or some of the coursesthat kind of made you want to
lean a little bit more into thatas well?
Yes. So I think my interest insex therapy started when I was
(02:38):
in college, and I started takinga bunch of like, psychology of
women and gender studies typecourses. And that really
appealed to me and talking aboutdifferent aspects of gender and
sexuality. And then that kind ofpropelled me into choosing the
sex therapy track at ThomasJefferson University, where I
got to really expand on thateducation and figure out exactly
(03:00):
kind of what I wanted to dowithin the field.
I love that. Yeah. When I was ingraduate school, and I was going
for marriage and family therapy,we only had, I think, one human
sexuality class, and I lovedthat class. And then once I
graduate and started workingwith couples, you know, sex
comes up. Like it's inevitable.
It's a huge part of therelationship. And I was like,
why did we not learn more aboutthis? So it made me want to go
(03:22):
back and learn more about it aswell. So I went to Council for
Relationships, which I think ispart of Jefferson, right? Which
is the program that you were apart of too
yeah, yes, I had my graduateexperience at Thomas Jefferson
University. And then I did myinternship with Council for
Relationships. And I had awonderful experience with both.
(03:44):
They were phenomenal.
Yeah, well, awesome program,right, like a huge shout out to
Council for Relationships,because they really, really let
therapists like, learn aboutobviously all of like, the
information, but a huge part ofit is also like understanding
ourselves within that and likeexploring our own sexuality and
gender and like our biases, andreally understanding like, what
(04:05):
that means for us, so that itfeels comfortable and feels safe
for us to work with clients aswell.
Oh, absolutely. And I think evengoing through like the SAR
experiences, the Sexual AttitudeReassessment was so so helpful
of like, examining my ownthoughts, feelings, things that
I had, like really neverconsidered before and how that
might show up in the therapyroom.
(04:27):
What was it like for you becauseI remember telling my friends
like, Oh, I'm just watching pornat 9am in class.
Yes, I had that same exactconversation. I was like, I
think we're about to go andwatch porn with our professors.
And I, you know, did it andthat's kind of what it is kind
of not, but it was definitely avery funny conversation that I
(04:50):
had to have with some familymembers about what I was doing
on whatever dayYeah, that's awesome. I always
love that watching otherpeople's reactions to hearing
that.
Yes. Yeah.
So through this process, I knowyou've had experience working
with couples, individuals andeverything, what has been
something that you've gravitatedtowards that you really want to
spend more time focusing on withclients that you find is like
(05:14):
kind of like your specialty oryou want to specialize more in?
Yes. So one of the first kind ofareas that I really got into
working with with sex therapy isworking with people in the
Consensual Non-Monogamy (CNM)community. Just by like weird
happenstance, the first bunch ofclients that I got were
following me consensualnon-monogamy community. And that
(05:35):
was really exciting, but also alittle intimidating as that was
something that I, you know, hadpretty much no knowledge of
going in. And so I reallyenjoyed working with this
community and kind of learningmy own thoughts educating myself
throughout that process, whichwas really cool. And the other
kind of area that I really haveenjoyed learning, learning more
(05:58):
about and working with over thelast year and a half has been
couples that are going throughlike a major life transition,
and then that are workingtowards rebuilding their
emotional and sexual intimacyfollowing any kind of transition
or major change.
So both like really big andinteresting, fascinating topics,
(06:18):
and lifestyles and liketransitions and things that we
kind of all go through in lifeat some point or another, at
least with rebuilding likeemotional and sexual intimacy
after a huge life change. Andfor a lot of people the the
consensual non-monogamy or likebeing monogamous, like a
monogamous ish, right? Like allthe different kinds of terms
that fall under that is superfascinating. I remember also
(06:43):
having a couple when I firststarted too that was in the
consensual non monogamycommunity. I was like, wow, I
haven't learned about this. Ithink that's kind of the fun
part of being a therapist, too,is that, you know, we learn a
bunch of stuff, and then we havesomebody or a couple come in,
right. Wow. Okay. Now I'm goingto read a lot of stuff,
(07:03):
familiarize myself with thesetopics, understand what's going
on for these individuals, and beable to kind of help them. But
also super fascinating for us aslike the professionals or the
the health care providers on theother end, too.
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. Ifeel like I'm from a, you know,
moral conservative area. I wentto college undergrad in a rural
(07:23):
conservative area, andconsensual non-monogamy was not
even like something that I hadheard of. So I was like, wow,
this is like, really cool andinteresting. And something I had
never thought was possible. Thisis amazing.
So completely, like out of thebubble, or the realm of even
like hearing about it. That'sawesome.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's, I'verun into that a few times with
(07:45):
like, different topics withinsex therapy. And it has been
such a joy, kind of expanding mymindset and my knowledge base
over the last two years.
I love that, right? Because wegrow professionally, but also
personally, and it helps us kindof look at life and ourselves
and relationships. It's such anopen and different wait. So
yeah, yes, I know. I am sure youwent through the same thing of
(08:08):
going through school, but youcan feel like, yes, your
professional self is growing.
But personally, I'm like, I am adifferent person than I was two
years ago.
Absolutely.
In the best way.
Aww, and so I remember yousharing that you actually did a
couple of your research projectsor something in graduate school
on consensual non monogamy, areyou able to share a little bit
(08:29):
more about like, what that was,like looking into detail for
what you got from that.
Yeah, it was really cool. So Iwanted to kind of do these do
that topic as a few differentresearch projects to kind of see
how consensual non monogamycould be blended with emotion
focused therapy, emotion focusedcouples therapy. And I very
(08:52):
quickly came to the realizationthat there was like, no research
out there. And that was like,Oh, no. Okay, so then, what I
ended up doing was I found like,different articles and kind of
was able to create like a puzzleframe or like a patchwork
situation of how you can useemotion focused couples therapy,
(09:13):
when working with consensual nonmonogamy, and even when you're
dealing with, like triads, ormore than one or more than two
people in a, in a relationship.
Like, this is so cool andinteresting. And I, as I was
like, kind of just learningthis, for my own knowledge of
like, just working with clients.
I was like, I should share thiswith class. And I should like,
(09:33):
figure out how to do a projecton this because that would be
really great.
Huh, that's awesome. you createda whole new little section and
niche for the research in ourfield
Yeah, and I hope that I hopeit's useful, I hope. I hope
people can find something goodout of it.
I'm sure absolutely. And so forlisteners that are kind of
(09:56):
listening to this episode. Wouldyou be able to share a little
bit about consensualnon-monogamy? What that looks
like? What that means? Differentlike forms of that so that
people can have a betterunderstanding.
Yeah, absolutely. So consensualnon monogamy is pretty much
exactly what it sounds like itis when you are not kind of
(10:16):
bound to a traditionalmonogamous style of
relationship, you can besexually intimate, emotionally
intimate with just more than oneother person. So there's a few
different ways that people mightpractice this in their own
lives. So that kind of fallsinto two major groups. The first
(10:36):
is like hierarchical, consensualnon monogamy. And that's going
to look like where you have aprimary partner. And then you
might have secondary partners.
So your primary partner might beyour person who is your spouse,
you might live in the same home,share finances, raise kids
together, and then yoursecondary partners might be
people that you still care forvery deeply, you just don't
(10:58):
really have them as an activepart of your day to day life.
That doesn't mean they're anyless important. It's just that
they fill a different role thanthe primary partner. And then
the kind of other major form ofconsensual non monogamy is just,
it's more egalitarian, where allof the partners are more equal.
So you may have like, more thanone person that is that you're
(11:22):
living with, you may have kidsaltogether, share in finances
all together, there's less of ahierarchy, less of a structure,
and more just community, sharingeverything all together.
I love that. And even likewithin those two categories,
there's so many that fallunderneath that. I liked that
you broke that up into those twostructures is that there was a
(11:45):
hierarchy where there's like aprimary partner, where the two
of you decide kind of theparameters and what that looks
like outside of yourrelationship versus the other
group where it's everyone isequal, whether it's sexual,
romantic, platonic, there is nopriority over a particular
partner. It's very open andfluid in that way, which both
(12:06):
are pretty interesting and cool,and have their own kind of
parameters and boundaries andeverything that individuals have
to work through to make thatwork for them.
Yeah, there can be a lot ofreally good things and really
beautiful things that can comeout of consensual non monogamy.
But you're right, there are somechallenges. And especially if
(12:27):
you're transitioning from atraditional monogamous
relationship into consensual nonmonogamy, there's going to be
hiccups, because it's a prettybig change. And that's just what
happens in life. But so long asthere is good communication and
clear boundaries, and you'reable to be open and honest with
one another, you can make thattransition as smoothly as
(12:50):
possible.
Yeah. So I wanted to talk alittle bit about more like the
sub pieces of each of those two,because I think this is a really
big topic that can feelintimidating for a lot of people
or like you said, may have neverheard of it and may think like,
it's just based on sex orwanting to have sex with other
people. When I think that, yes,that's a piece of it, right?
(13:12):
Just like how it's a piece ofany relationship. But it's so
much more than that. Right? Likeeven research shows that
individuals receive emotionalsupport, like societal support
different roles, their needs aremet in different ways. They're
fulfilled in different ways,they get to explore their own
sexuality in a different way.
Right? So it's so much moreinvolved than just sex, but sex
(13:34):
is an important part and also,you know, something that is
available through thisrelationship structure too.
it reminds me of something Ialways heard growing up that sex
is a important part ofrelationships, but it's not the
only part. There's a lot ofother things going on, you're
dealing with everyone'semotional needs, physical needs,
(13:59):
family needs, everything. We'renot talking about. You know,
it's we look at allrelationships as a system and to
just talk about the sexualcomponent would be ignoring
everything else going on there.
Yeah, and really minimizing thefulfilling parts and rewarding
parts of relationship outside ofjust that.
Yeah, absolutely.
(14:20):
And so I think that some of theother types of non monogamy or
consensual non monogamy, right?
If it's within the hierarchy,right, is if it's monogamish
right? So some couples may havelet's say, they can have like an
open relationship where one orboth partners outside of their
primary relationship may have anemotional or sexual relationship
(14:41):
with someone else. But they youknow, talk about the parameters
that's kind of something that'sdecided on if it's okay to be
emotional and or sexual. Can youname a couple of other ones
underneath like the structural.
not the structural, thehierarchy, relationship ones for
non monogamy?
Yeah, you might see It's like,swinging or polyamory I think
(15:06):
sometimes the, the actuallanguage may be kind of picked
up by the person you're workingwith. And a lot of these terms
I've found at least might beused somewhat interchangeably.
And for that reason, I thinklike, it's helpful for me at
least I don't want to speak foreveryone out there. But it's
(15:27):
helpful to just kind of look at,okay, we're dealing with
something in the consensual nonmonogamy umbrella ,and however
people want to define theirindividual relationship is kind
of up to them and whatever theyfeel most comfortable with
Absolutely it can you share alittle bit of like the general
idea around polyamory andswinging so people have a better
(15:48):
idea, because I obviously I knowthat each structure is going to
have its unique features andthings that are decided and
agreed upon within therelationship or individuals.
Yes. So in most cases, you mightsee like a couple that has been
together, and they may be anestablished couple. And then for
(16:08):
whatever reason, they may feelthat their sexual needs are not
necessarily being fulfilledentirely within this
relationship and want to open upsome doors to share their sexual
experiences and emotionalexperiences with other people.
And that can be a really greatthing for kind of lighting up
(16:29):
that spark and a marriage again.
So yeah, so that can look likeswinging for some couples. So
this is really just to let theaudience members know, like a
better idea. And understanding,because we kind of have an idea.
We know we work with people,people who come in or already
have their own, whether it'slabels or understanding of this.
But for listeners who may notknow, right? like, swinging is
(16:50):
when the couple has a sexualrelationship with another couple
where they may swap, and thatthey're present with each other.
It's not necessarily that it isa separate sexual experience,
although sometimes it may be,right? like in different rooms
or different places, but it's anexperience kind of that they
want to share together as acouple.
(17:12):
Exactly. And then you might lookat an open relationship, which
may be a little more separate,where if you're looking at a,
let's say, a heterosexualmarried couple, with an open
relationship, they may seek outpartners separate from one
another and do that on their owntime. And they may just keep
(17:32):
their dating life separate fromtheir married life a little
more.
And then we have polyamorousright where that is, it's
actually a relationship withmore than one person. So like
you said, it could be a separatepartner. So like one partner
within the relationship mighthave their own second partner,
or all three of them might be ina romantic and or sexual
(17:53):
relationship together. And theymay not date other people, or
each partner may have anotherpartner, right? So it kind of
just depends on how they want towork that out.
And that's really exciting,because that's when you get into
that, that non hierarchical,type of consensual non monogamy
where everything is a littlemore, you know, equal and fluid
with one another.
(18:14):
Yeah. And so have you found someparticular main reasons or
benefits for whether it's amonogamous relationship to want
to explore and expand into a nonmonogamous relationship or for
individuals to participate inone just from the start?
I can't necessarily speakregarding individuals I, I
(18:36):
honestly haven't had as muchexperience in working with
individuals in the CNMcommunity. But I think for
couples, I've seen a number ofreally interesting reasonings
for beginning to engage in thatcommunity, like one that's come
up a few times has been thingslike chronic illness, and
perhaps even like a traumahistory where, for whatever
(18:59):
reason, the couples may not beable to engage in sex and
intimacy in the way that theymight want to at that time. And
so expanding their relationshipand opening that up may be
really helpful for one or bothpartners to have their needs met
in another way. You could alsosee just people trying to try
new things with one another, andexpand their sexual relationship
(19:22):
by opening up their relationshipas a whole, which has been
really cool to see.
Yeah, so it's interesting. I'mglad you brought up the like the
piece whether it's trauma orchronic illness, right, because
I know that so I see a lot ofcouples where there might be a
mismatched sex drive, onepartner might be more like a
higher desire for sex while theother partner, whether that
(19:45):
might be a traumatic backgroundor a chronic illness or
something that has occurred forthem, that that becomes a sore
spot in their relationship andso much focus is placed on that
and so much pressure that thatbecomes, it just eats up the
relationship. And so being ableto take that pressure off this
one person to fulfill that rolefor you, and allow the
(20:08):
relationship to focus more onthe pieces in the strings that
are working and knowing thatthey can receive that need
somewhere else, I thinkincreases their intimacy,
emotionally, and sometimes evensexually as well. Because, you
know, we know that pressure isnot a sexy thing. It's
definitely a turnoff. Andfeeling like you're
disappointing your partnerconstantly, also doesn't help
(20:30):
that process either. So I'm gladyou brought that up, because it
does allow the couple to gettheir needs met from other
individuals. And once thatpressure is taken away, it
actually adds so much more tothe relationship and appreciate
one another a lot more tooOh, yeah, absolutely. And I
think especially when you'relooking at maybe trauma, for
example, when you're talkingabout someone who like they
(20:54):
really do need to go on theirown healing journey from
whatever may have happened,taking off that pressure of
their partner wanting to havesex can be so helpful with their
with their own process ofAnd so what about some, whether
it's reasons or a point in thehealing.
relationship where exploringthat or going into that is not
(21:17):
helpful or not recommended orbeneficial? If you've seen that
in relationshipsI think there's there's a number
of reasons why it could not workout well. I think people who may
already be like, pretty highconflict and are disconnected. I
think starting off withdisjointed communication in the
relationship, and low emotionalintimacy, when I think all of
(21:41):
these you to go into consensualnon monogamy in any of these
forms, you really need such astrong foundation, you need to
have like, your communication onpoint. And it's okay to have
some hiccups every now andagain. But if you don't have
that foundation, like already inplace, then it's going to
(22:01):
crumble and crack away veryquickly.
Yeah, that's a huge one right iscommunication, as I learned
through this process, too. Andfor couples, or, you know, the
relationship structures whereit's consensual non monogamy,
the communication and honestyand trust and respect, I found
(22:22):
is a lot of times at such ahigher level than a lot of
relationships in a monogamousrelationship. Because in order
for this to work and bebeneficial for everybody, which
makes it consensual is that youconstantly have to be
communicating, and communicatingin a very safe and effective
way. And being really open andhonest
(22:43):
with that that honesty piece isso crucial. like that is if you
cannot honestly communicate withone another, and you're still
holding things back from yourpartner, then you're not going
to be able to articulate yourboundaries very clearly, you're
not going to be able to advocatefor yourself and your partner
need to maybe restructure thingsat points. So making sure
(23:05):
abundance of communication andabundance of honesty is so so so
important.
Absolutely. And beingcomfortable with hearing things
that don't make you feel good.
Right? Or like triggeringjealousy or understanding that
your partner may be enjoyingthis other person or this other
aspect in a different or moreway than they are with you.
(23:27):
Right. Like if you are not goodat receiving feedback, or
constructive criticism, this isgoing to be really difficult
because it's going to beconstantly pushing those
triggers and those buttons foryou, which is going to create an
unsafe environment, which willpromote lying or hiding.
Yeah, it seems as though from atleast an outsider perspective
(23:51):
looking in that you need to havea thick skin and you need to
feel safe with your partnerwhere you can, you know, share
some of your own insecurities,or theirs and you can have that
have that safe space, and beopen to hearing from one another
about all of thatYea. So a lot of security in
your relationship. But I thinkalso as an individual, a lot of
(24:13):
security and confidence withinyourself because it's not for
everybody, right? Like, I thinkit takes a particular person or
a particular process to get to apoint where you feel comfortable
and safe knowing that what I canprovide this person in my
relationship is enough and ifthey need something else outside
(24:33):
of it, that's okay. And thatdoesn't say something negative
about me or make me unlovable orunworthy. It's just that some
people can love multiple peopleat once, or the sexual emotional
relationships increase ourintimacy, not take away from it.
Exactly. And I think one nice,paraphrasing a quote I saw a
(24:58):
while ago, but it's Not at allthat you're not enough of a
person in a polyamorous orconsensual non monogamy
relationship, it's that maybethe other person just has so
much love to give your cup maybefilled up and they are still
kind of overflowing and want toshare that with another person.
(25:19):
And I thought that was reallybeautiful kind of reframe of all
that.
Yeah, I really like that. That'sinteresting, because there are
very loving people, and they cangive so much love. And they can
give that to multiple people orin different ways as well.
Yeah, absolutely. It's really,really cool kind of getting to
learn more and see how thesecouples work and see that there
(25:41):
is so much love in all of theserelationships.
I think a tough part for somepeople or a lot of people,
right? Because this is verystill very stigmatized, even
though at this point, it's themost accepted, it's probably
been ever in any time inhistory, at least in our Western
culture, right? Because there'sindigenous cultures that have
been doing this for so manyyears. But is that this
(26:02):
understanding or this script oflike a hetero heterosexual
normative monogamousrelationship, that there's
almost like a scarcity mindset,right? Like, this has to be my
person, and I have to be able tofulfill all these needs for you
and if i don't, you're gonnaleave me. And that there's like
this fear that if I'm notenough, or they're not enough,
we will leave or we'll cheat. Soit's constantly being scared of
(26:26):
the partner leaving or having todo more, instead of recognizing
that it's kind of impossible forone person to fulfill all the
needs of their partner. That'swhy we have friendships, that's
why we have careers and work andmentors and school. Like, I
think that people can acceptthat piece of it. But it might
be difficult to accept that theymight have another romantic
(26:46):
partner in that way, too.
Yeah. And you kind of hit itexactly of, we already have
multiple relationships in ourlives, we, we don't expect our
romantic partners to fill everysingle role. And even within
having a romantic partner,people may just have a lot of
expectations and a lot of needs,that maybe not every single
(27:10):
person can fill every singleone. And it's okay to have more
than one partner, if that's whatyou need, and that's what can
benefit you and yourrelationship.
I think a couple reasons that itmight not be beneficial for some
couples, as well is feeling likeit has to save the relationship,
or almost feeling pressure, likewell, my partner wants this, I
(27:33):
don't really want to but again,I don't want to lose them. So
I'll just do this to fulfilltheir need. And kind of white
knuckle it and hope it goeswell. When those are not the
best reasons, right? It's almostlike don't have a baby to save
the relationship, like don't doan external thing to save the
relationship. Work on it first,and then try something
(27:54):
different.
Like we were saying before youneed, you need that strong
foundation, you need to becomfortable and safe with one
another before you do this kindof really different thing
together. And if you if you'reat a point where you're like,
grappling and trying to save therelationship, making any major
life change to try to staytogether is not really going to
(28:18):
work out the best maybeYea and also trying to avoid
cheating or avoid your partnercheating or accepting that they
want to be with other peopleright? Because they're they're
very different things. I thinksometimes people confuse
cheating and consensual nonmonogamy as something similar or
overlapping, and like you'vementioned multiple times is the
biggest difference in featuresis that it's consensual.
(28:39):
Cheating is not consensual.
Cheating is something a persondecides to do behind someone's
back. Non monogamousrelationships is everyone's on
the same page. I mean, there canbe cheating within non
monogamous relationships, if youstep outside kind of the
parameters of the things youagreed on or negotiated or hide
things from your partner. Right?
It's really the feature of lyingand hiding that's so big in this
(29:00):
piece, Right. So long as you arecommunicating upfront with your
partner, being honest andaddressing boundary violations
as they occur, and setting clearboundaries. Consensual non
monogamy is the opposite ofcheating and infidelity. You
know, it still can exist thereas well as in any monogamous
(29:24):
relationship. But it's reallythat lying or dishonest, that
lack of honesty that that reallysets that apart.
Yea. And so what are some kindof struggles that you've seen or
challenges for individuals orcouples within non monogamous
relationships that generally itworks right, but as any
(29:47):
relationship friendship, familyromantic, there's going to be
some struggles, some common onesthat you might have seen pop up.
I think the biggest one thatI've probably seen has been
boundary communication. Fromlike the jump, making sure that
you have like a, a clear cutkind of set of rules, making
sure that everyone is aware,agreeing, and consenting to
(30:10):
those rules. And that can be avery challenging and lengthy
process, just kind of gettingall of that setup. And then that
might hit on some soft spots foranyone in that relationship of,
because, you know, you'retalking about really intimate
details of Okay, so do you wantpartners to be in our home? Yes
(30:31):
or No? Will they interact withour children or families? Or how
are we going to navigatedifferent social situations?
There's so many complexquestions that people may not
have even considered yet. Andkind of ironing all of that out
as early on in the process aspossible can really set you up
(30:51):
for success going forward. Butit is a that is a difficult
process that I've helped peoplewith navigating and kind of
going through, which has beenreally exciting and interesting.
YeahI think, I think the other big
thing, too, that I'veencountered is when the
boundaries may not have beenclearly set up, and you get
boundary violations where oneperson will be hurt that some
(31:13):
action that may have gone onthat they felt they may have
been okay with but then as itturns out, no, it was not going
to work out and kind ofnavigating through some of
those. Those boundary breachesthere.
Yes, that's an interesting one,because it's almost like you
gotta set up all I don't want tosay the rules. I mean, some of
(31:34):
them are rules. Some of them areparameters, like agreed upon
things. And you really have tobe thoughtful, right? This isn't
like, Okay, go see somebody andlet me know how it goes and have
fun. I mean, you could do that,right? Some people do that. But
then they kind of run into theseissues where well, how are we
going to handle it in thiscircumstance? Or how's it going
to feel if someone we know findsout? Right? Or if it becomes
(31:57):
more than just emotional, ormore than just sexual? And what
you're saying is reallyimportant is that even if you
agreed upon it, thinking thatthat's how you would feel in
theory, and then it actuallyhappens, you're like, I don't
like how that how that feltinternally. I don't know if I
want to continue doing that. Andhaving to renegotiate, and re
(32:18):
discuss this again, and beingable to share what that felt
like for you and why it feltthat way. And deciding, okay, is
this something I just need toprocess to work through and then
I'll be okay? Or, you know,what, I don't think this is a
good part of the parametersanymore.
It is very, like, clear cut. AndI think one way that I almost
think of it as kind of likeyou're creating a living
(32:40):
contract between within therelationship over you kind of go
through and answer thesequestions. And then as needed,
you go through and revise andadd things take things away,
when different situations cropup, when new things new people
may enter the relationship. AndI think like, it may sound a
(33:01):
little silly, but the idea ofthat contract can be helpful in
just being so so so clear witheverything. And yeah, it can be
helpful for the communication tohave that, like, extremely
explicit like that.
Yeah, I don't think it's sillyat all. I think it's, I think,
You mentioned somethinginteresting which is like,
honestly, every couple shouldhave some, some level or some
(33:23):
degree of a contract, right?
Where it's an understanding ofthere's so many situations that
can come up that you don't knowexpectations, because I think a
lot of relationships,particularly monogamous ones is
we kind of have a lot ofassumptions about what we think
our partners should do, how theyshould act, how they should
feel, how we should act andfeel. And then things come up
that we didn't talk about, wedidn't think about, we thought
we'd be on the same page, andthen we're faced with it like,
(33:45):
oh, shit, we're not on the samepage at all. And it's kind of no
one's fault, because neither ofus talked about it. So we
wouldn't have known that towhat's going to happen between
you and your partner that thisbegin with. So I think it almost
sounds like having a weeklycheck in or a consistent check
in of, okay, this is thestructure, how do we feel about
this, maintaining that, hasmay just be something that
you've never considered and youanything come up in between,
(34:05):
like, do we want to changeanything? Do we feel good about
it? And just consistentlytalking
(34:26):
need to have that foundation of,you know, whatever it is, like
whether it's monogamousrelationships or consensually
non monogamous, you know, thefoundation of clear
communication and having theability to check in with your
partner and be able to talk itthrough and understand where
each of you are coming from, andreally listening to one another.
(34:48):
That's really important that Ithink a lot of people just kind
of overlook sometimes.
Yeah, these are like very, verycritical and essential skills
that help couples maintainhealthy relationships, like
they're skills, which meansthey're they can be learned,
they can be taught, it's notsomething we're born with, like,
this is a particular thing thatyou practice over time. And it's
(35:11):
unique with your partner, right?
Because good or effectivecommunication can look very
different from one couple toanother, based on their
emotional status, or theirattachment style, or the
communication style. So it'skind of always remembering that
every couple or everyrelationship is very unique to
them, because every person isunique, and has their own
experiences.
Yeah. And even looking at familybackgrounds, how, how they were
(35:36):
raised to communicate, how didwitness communication go on with
their grandparents, parents,aunts, uncles, brothers,
sisters, everyone in theirlives? What is their own
communication foundation? How isthat going to show up in the
present relationship is soimportant to kind of understand
and conceptualize what might begoing on here
(35:57):
Absolutely it informs so much ofhow we start relationships, and
maintain them Oh, absolutely.
There is a book that I wouldrecommend. I've had a lot of my
clients read this book that wasvery helpful. It's called
"Ethical Slut". And have youheard of that one?
Yes, I have. It's on my "To beread list".
(36:18):
So it's a phenomenal book. Ithelps couples or individuals
looking to be non monogamous,really have some of these deep
questions, right, and have someof these deep discussions about
what would this look like for usand kind of challenging some of
these biases or informedthoughts that we might have had
before and see things reallydifferently. And give kind of
(36:39):
practical tips and help on howto navigate this for the first
time. So if anyone's listeningwho is thinking about it,
starting it, "Ethical Slut" is areally good book for that.
That is definitely gettingpumped on my list. I will be
checking that one out soon.
Yeah. Is there anything that youlike to give clients? whether
(37:00):
it's like worksheets, oranything that you typically
give? Or is it more like insession, working it out
together?
make a lot of use of is liketechnology. So like, I like to
suggest a couple of differentapps to couples. So the one that
I really, really love is calledAgape. And this is like, so what
(37:24):
they do is they provide aquestion each day. And this is
more just like a generalcommunication exercise. And then
you each have the app, you eachkind of answer the question, and
they don't let you see yourpartner's answer until you've
answered the question yourself.
And then it'll be things like,how do you like to show
affection to your partner? Or ifyou had a million dollars, what
(37:45):
would you want to do together?
Like it ranges from silly tomore serious and some sweet, but
that's a really good likeconversation starter to begin
building up that intimatecomponent. And then the other
one is called the Official App.
And that one's really, reallygood for sexual communication.
It gives you like a list ofyes's or no's, different
(38:07):
activities you'd be interestedin. And that can be really
helpful for like, the consensualnon monogamy, negotiation, kink
negotiation or anything elsewhen you're starting up a new
relationship.
And when was that called? TheOfficial App?
Yeah,The Official App, that one's
cool. I've never heard that onebefore. I'll have to add that to
the list of things.
(38:29):
Yeah, I just saw that like,pretty recently, I think it's a
new app that I started followingtheir page on TikTok, and I was
like, this is going to be sohelpful, I'm going to recommend
this to every single person Icome across.
That's awesome. Yeah, so it'sreally great to have these
additional resources forindividuals or couples to go to,
right? Because we discussthings, we talk it out, we
(38:50):
process it, and then havingsomething outside of sessions to
really learn more about orpractice, especially with
something like this is veryhelpful, because it's not a one
time conversation, right? Likemajority of the time, these are
going to be conversations youhave follow up and follow up and
follow up. And, you know,checking in and maintaining. So
having this consistently whereyou check in or you learn more
(39:13):
about your partner, andnegotiate things as it goes is
really phenomenal for continuingthis process for couples.
Oh, yeah, of course. And, youknow, I love finding different
new apps that you you know,you've got it in the palm of
your hand all the time. Littletool to help you with your
relationship wherever you go.
It's great.
Yeah. And so I know we're comingto an end. I feel like we could
(39:35):
talk about this all day. But Iwanted to let the listeners know
that you are a new therapistthat Heal Your Roots Wellness,
and you'll be accepting newclients, individuals and couples
and for sex therapy. Is thereany final words that you'd like
to share with any listeners oranything before we hop off?
Thank you so much for listening,and I hope to meet some of you
guys soon.
Awesome. Thank you so much forbeing on today. Courtney, I
(39:57):
appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
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