Behind the Method: How The Work Came to be w/ Byron Katie and an Exercise in Application to Public Service w/ Matt Plourd

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Conscious leaders put people first, but so do
conscious companies. I spentseven years of my life working
at Skyrun Aspen, always jokingthat it was my public service
subsidy, and they walk this.During COVID, Sky Run helped
short term rentals transition tolong term housing so locals had
a place to stay and owners couldkeep their homes. And when the

(00:22):
time was right, they helped usshift right back as a community.
If you're looking for a vacationrental company that leads with
care, then SkyRun is it.
To experience their commitmentto community and care in
Colorado, use code HOP15, that'sHealing Our Politics 15, for 15%
off a stay, whether for yourselfor someone in your community.

(00:46):
Check the link in the show notesfor more. Hello. My name is
Skippy Mezaru, coach, formerelected official, and lifetime
public servant. Welcome toHealing Our Politics, the show
that shows you, the heartcentered public servant and
political leader, how to healour politics by starting with

(01:08):
the human in the mirror.
It is my job to sit down orstand up with the best experts
in all areas of humandevelopment thought leaders,
coaches, therapists, authors,scientists, and more to take the
best of what they have learnedand translate it specifically
for the public serviceexperience, providing you

(01:28):
actionable, practical, tacticaltools that you can test out
today in your life and with yourteens. I will also talk to
leaders across the globe with aself care practice, getting to
know them at a deeply human andpersonal level so that you can
learn from their challenges andjourney. Warning. This is a
postpartisan space. Yes.

(01:50):
I have a bias. You have a bias.We all have a bias. Everybody
gets a bias. And I will bestripping out all of the
unconscious cues of bias fromthis space.
No politics, partisanship, orpolicy here because well-being
belongs to all of us, and wewill all be better served if

(02:11):
every human in leadership,regardless of party, ideology,
race, or geography, are happier,healthier, and more connected.
This show is about resourcingyou, the human doing leadership,
and trusting you to make up yourown damn mind about what to do
with it and what's best for yourcommunity. So as always, with

(02:33):
love, here we go. Today, I havesomeone, actually someone's, and
something truly special for you.In this episode, I sit down with
the world famous Byron Katie, oras she prefers, simply Katie.

(02:56):
Katie is the founder of TheWork, a four part question
framework that has changed theway millions of people
experience their own mindsdismantling thoughts that cause
suffering. When I served inoffice, I used this framework. I
actually used this frequently toget me out of sticky situations
with my colleagues, citizens,and the city manager. It helped

(03:16):
me move from victim to empoweredactor, releasing stress,
rumination, and fear everysingle time. No joke.
Think of it as cognitivebehavioral therapy meets radical
self inquiry. Shout out pastguest Jerry Colonna. Go check
out that one. Except instead ofmanaging stress, it helps you
flip reality on its head andleaves you with nothing but

(03:40):
peace. In fact, while recentlyfacilitating annual retreat in
Wyoming, I watched a brave mayordo exactly that.
She had been viciously andbaselessly attacked during her
previous election, and I watchedher eyes light up. When doing
the work on judgment of heraccuser, she said, Oh my God. If

(04:00):
I just swapped their name formine, it's all still true. I
gave up my power, and now I cantake it back. Her breakthrough
released months of pain in aninstant, and her vulnerability
created the space, thepermission structure for her
council members to sharechallenges that they'd been

(04:21):
hiding.
Seeing each other as humansagain in this process, they came
together and set a strongunified agenda across party
lines. Yes. That is stillhappening today if you're
willing to do the work. Katie'sbooks have sold millions of
copies and have been translatedinto over 30 languages. Titles

(04:44):
like Loving What Is, A Mind atHome with Itself, and Who Would
You Be Without That Story havebecome classics in the world of
personal development.
She's been hailed by everyonefrom Oprah, yes, that Oprah, to
Eckhart Tolle, and her teachingshave found their way into
boardrooms, prisons, and warzones. The likes of Tony
Robbins, Tim Ferriss, andcountless other high performers

(05:05):
swear by her methods, and TimeMagazine named her nothing less
than the spiritual innovator ofthe twenty first century. In
this episode, we dive intoKatie's story, how after a
decade long spiral intodepression, rage, and addiction,
she had a spontaneous awakeningon the floor of a halfway house
that led directly to the workand what she learned in that

(05:29):
moment. We discussed the world'smost powerful leadership tools,
how your mind creates reality,and with that knowledge, how you
can train your mind to createthe reality that best serves you
and your community. You willlearn how to dissolve the fears
of rivals and shift fromadversarial to collaborative
leadership to get more done, thecounterintuitive approach to

(05:51):
handling difficult people thatwill set you free, and why
losing an election or notgetting the job may be the best
thing that ever happened to youand your leadership.
This is a story I knowintimately. Then we get even
deeper as I sit down with MattPlord, city councilman of
Newington, Connecticut, andactually do the work on a live

(06:14):
situation coming up in hisservice. Matt is a remarkable
young leader from a family ofpublic servants, a real legacy.
Still in his twenties, he isdedicating his life to bridging
the divide and helping usnavigate back to common sense
and compassion to improve thelives of all Americans. In my
experience, he has an uncannyself awareness and ability to

(06:37):
own his shortcomings that farsurpasses leaders with many
decades of experience on him.
It deeply impresses me, and I'mgenuinely inspired by his
leadership and the journey he isjust beginning. This is one for
the record book, so strap in andgrab your popcorn or healthy
snacks. And I hope you enjoythis deeply human,

(07:00):
transformative, but alsoapplicable conversation with
Byron Katie and Matt Plord.Hello, Katie.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Hi, Skippy.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Hi. What a pleasure. An absolute Oh,

Speaker 2 (07:14):
And thank you for your just amazing work. I just
am so happy to meet you.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Thank you. Byron Katie, welcome to the Healing
Our Politics podcast, the showthat shows you, the heart
centered leader, how to heal ourpolitics by starting with the
human in the mirror. I trulycan't tell you what an honor and
pleasure it is to have you onthe show today.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Oh, thank you, Skippy. Your work is so good.
I'm so grateful. How could I notjust hang out with you a while
and see if we could do some goodtogether?

Speaker 1 (07:46):
I so appreciate that. Certainly you have all the big
accolades that people knowabout. But what really hit home
for me is when I got the emailfrom your team that you were
gonna come on the show. Imentioned it to my partner who's
also a coach, also a trainee ofAlyssa Nobrega, who's very in
your world. And she just burstout crying because it means so

(08:10):
much to her.
And your work has done so muchfor her and for me. And so it's
really special.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
So nice to hear. Thank you. Can

Speaker 1 (08:20):
you just sketch for us a little bit about your life
before and after discovering thework?

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Prior to the work, it's self inquiry, and I call it
the work, it's self inquiry. Butprior to that awareness that
gave me the questions, theexperience, and then the
questions were a way for me torelate it rather than to teach
it where everyone could be theirown teacher. Because that's

(08:49):
where the wisdom is, so itpoints people directly to source
their own. And the work, when itfound me, I was on the floor
after years of agora phobia,just horrible, honey, just, ah,
horrible, you know, sleepingwith a gun under my pillow, for

(09:10):
heaven's sakes, just fear andterror, depression. I would call
it hell.
And so, I can share that hellreally is a state of mind. When
the work found me, I was on thefloor because I didn't believe I
deserved a bed to sleep in. Myself esteem and self loathing

(09:32):
ran so deep, even though therewas a bed in the room. So, one
day as I lay sleeping on thefloor, a bug crawled over my
foot and I opened my eyes. Inthe absence of ego, in the
absence of anything, justnothing there, I could see.
And then as we say, out of theblue, I saw light, but it wasn't

(09:59):
light until my ego named itLight, and that the world was
born. Like, I didn't know thename of anything I was being
taught like a brand new child.And so I was like a blank slate.
And it's such a gift to be inthis world. For me, that is

(10:25):
presence, that is awake toreality, that is understanding
the cause of all suffering.
And so when people would ask me,What is this remarkable change?
From a bed in a bedroom alllocked away to out in the world,

(10:46):
how do you answer that? Youcan't answer it honestly because
anything I could say about itwould be, I mean, it falls
short. And people really wantedhelp, they wanted to be free and
word traveled so fast. So that'swhere the worksheet came from,
the worksheet has six questionson it.

(11:06):
It's a way to identify andquestion the thoughts that cause
all the suffering in the world.It's an exercise in stillness,
and I don't call it the work fornothing, you know, we're working
with the ego and to just kind ofjust respectfully move what

(11:28):
we're thinking and believingfrom our mind to paper. That's
respectful. We're not trying tokill it. And then to question
it, and it loves offering up theanswers.
It loves to be asked. It lovesthat attention. And so it offers
up the answers through word andimages in our head, just like me

(11:48):
on the floor, takes them intothat experience, and then they
can just meditate in thosequestions and what I call
turnaround, like somethingterrible is going to happen
after I've questioned thethought and I try the opposite,
something terrible is going tohappen, something wonderful is
going to happen. So now we're inplay respectfully with not only

(12:13):
the ego but apparent duality.It's so beautiful, not to deny
what we're offered here and whatI refer to as Earth school.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yes. So I get curious. The world duality is
interesting, and I'm picturingyou in this place, and who knows
if my vision remotely captureswhat the moment was. But what
was the shift? What did youunderstand in that moment?

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Before the ego could identify I or anything, I or it,
I saw. It was a moment of nonidentification. For me, I
understood the ego's world. Imean, if you could not think, Do

(13:02):
you know who or what you are orwhat anything is? That is that
state of non being.
And then I didn't think, window,it was offered up. And that
doesn't mean it's true, it'soffered up. And then I saw light
and it offered up the wordlight. And I saw that if
something doesn't have a name,there's not, let's say, duality.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Separation dissolves.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, it's a glorious thing to know that life is
imagined.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Is it fair to say, and this is totally me trying to
put words to the ineffable, andI recognize that, but fear comes
from separateness. That thingcan hurt me. That thing can harm
me. That thing is coming to me.But when I recognize that that
thing is me and I am that thing,then I have the opportunity to
step back, perspectively, andjust see the beauty in what is.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
I love that so much. Mhmm. Okay. I'm out of here.
It's done.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
It's such a beautiful notion and it's one that is so
hard to conjure if you haven'texperienced it in some way.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
Does a child, does a little child, you know, it can
see like light but doesn't nameit light. It can see a mother or
a father, but it doesn't have aname for it, it doesn't have a
word. So, it doesn't exist,there's no I. And the woman is
like, This is my mother. Nowthere's a me and a mother,

(14:32):
duality.
And even to have a my can bequestioned.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yes. These questions, this process become the
mechanism by which people whoare not lucky enough to have
this unexpected experience havea similar shift in perspective.
Is that fair?

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yes. But there's no one that can't see what I saw.
There cannot be object without aname. Even if the name is I
don't know what it is. It'sbeing kind of named.
Like there's an edge.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
And yet people in our line of work in public service
roles very frequently, and I wasguilty of this for a number of
years and I fall back into thatpattern, can get so focused on
the immediate, the need, thefear that you just go from task
to task to task and you forgetto tap back into that.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah. Let's say if I'm in politics and I have an
opponent, then even if I respectthat person and understand that
person, if that's my opponent,for example, would give me cause
to fill in a worksheet on thatopponent. If I felt threatened
like we're in the same election,we're running for the same

(15:45):
office, then I'm going to fillin one of those, what I call a
judge your neighbor worksheet,there's six questions on it. I'm
going to move from my head topaper on what I believe about
that opponent. And the way thatthat works is, let's say, I am
thinking I would be better forthe cause and I'm more qualified

(16:08):
than my opponent.
So I would judge my opponent onthat Judge Your Neighbor
Worksheet, which is what it is,it's about judging. Then I would
question what I'm believingabout that opponent, and then I
turn it around like he's not fitfor public office. And is it
true? And then I answerhonestly, yes or no, I

(16:32):
contemplate it first, is ittrue? Because I may feel like,
you know, he'd be pretty good atthis, but I'm testing it.
And then once I know myopponents, so I'm not doing
battle with them, I'm not tryingto win, I'm doing my best to put
out there who I am with allintegrity, and if he becomes

(16:56):
then good for the public.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, so it moves you, and I've experienced this
doing that exact worksheetmultiple times with personality
conflicts between myself andothers in my organization that
were holding me back. And what Ithink I hear you saying and what
my experience was is that itshifted me from the place of

(17:19):
disempowerment, which was blame,finger pointing, judgment to a
recognition of not that thereisn't potentially wrong if you
believe in such a thing onmultiple sides, but it showed me
where I was complicit increating that outcome, where I
was then empowered to shift mybehavior to alter the outcomes

(17:41):
in the way I desired. And fromthat place of empowerment, the
stress, the anxiety, the fear,the recursive thoughts were
diminished. That was myexperience. You've taught this
to, I mean, this is probably nota number high enough at this
point, certainly indirectly, buteven directly.
It's remarkable what you do.What are some of the outcomes

(18:05):
that you see people have fromapplying the work that our
audience might expect if theywere willing to try it?

Speaker 2 (18:11):
It's so powerful on anyone stuck in trauma to do
this work. It's powerful for allof us, but oh boy, working with
people with trauma, it's nothingshort of like a miracle watching
what And I'm not doing it. Theiranswers to the questions are

(18:35):
setting them free from thattrauma and it's not done in one
dose. That's why I call it thework. Okay, I worked with a man
today, just, oh, it was darling.
When he was four years old, hisfather promised that he would
come at a certain time and takehim out for this great day. And

(19:00):
we did a worksheet on his fatherdidn't show up, his father lied
to him. And no, his father saidhe would probably be able to
make it. The little four yearold him as a four year old heard
that, but he just it got intohis head it was a promise. And
his father came late, and he hasheld a grudge all these years

(19:25):
and his mind has made an enemyof a father not to be trusted.
And by the time he hasquestioned his thoughts about
his father as that four yearold, his whole life freed up. He
could see his father in thatfourth question, he could see
his father as no matter what thetantrum was, his father was

(19:49):
standing there with two big bagsof gifts, smiling and just
focused on his little four yearold with all this joy and his
father worked night shift forheaven's sakes and was exhausted
and showed up anyway, as itturned out. Anyway, it broke
through because he alwaystreated his father all his life

(20:13):
with disrespect. It was sopowerful, and I don't know how
your listeners or viewers arehearing this, but the beautiful
thing about it is he did thatworksheet and now he knows how
to do worksheet, and I don'tknow how many people were on
that call this morning, but theyall understand how to do it too,

(20:34):
not that they will, but they cansee the impossible. There is a
way to set ourselves free, whichis to say, to understand this
world beyond the ego, and thisworld is a gift to my mind.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yeah. So what I hear in that is healing relationships
with others, healingrelationship to self, finding
more joy, peace, equanimity,layering in my experience, less
stress, less anxiety.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
In everything we do, we can campaign, we're fearless.
Out of a whole other sense ofit's just the right thing to do
if we believe in a cause.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
That's it, empowerment. Like true
empowerment in leadership is theultimate downstream is what I
hear. And I in my experience,that's that's true. Mhmm. Okay.
I'm gonna ask you a question nowthat you might not actually have
an answer for, and that's okayif you don't. I think you were,
what, times, like, spiritualperson of the millennia or

(21:41):
something. So this might be outof your wheelhouse, but my nerd
brain wants to understandmechanisms of action. How is
this working in our brain?What's actually happening that's
helping us shift, rewire, andchange our perspective?
Like, I do these questions. Isit down with a worksheet, and I
have the result. I get it. Itworks. Something shifts in my
life.

(22:01):
But what's happening in my brainthat's allowing that shift to
happen?

Speaker 2 (22:05):
I'll say a word and then I invite you and your
viewers or listeners not to putan image with the word, just no
picture whatsoever. Okay?Banana. You saw an image.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Of course.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Okay, so that's ego. It's a word image. It's like a
fusion thing. It's life,apparent life, but it's
imagined. Now that's not abanana, now I'll give you
another one.
Okay, so imagine biting into abig, juicy, ripe lemon.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
I was trying a different strategy. I tried to
stare at the flowers over yourshoulder and keep those in my
head, and even before you saidthe word, I was rifling through
fruits. And

Speaker 2 (22:58):
so this time not only did you see the image and you
biting into you an image, bitinginto that lemon image, but you
felt the physical. That is thepower up against and that's why
people refer to it as anillusion, it's in our mind. But

(23:20):
then if we eat, if we truly biteinto a lemon, we don't even know
what that is if we haven't beentold and believed it.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, that's interesting. So what that
reminds me of is two thingsunrelated, but this is how my
brain works. On one hand, I'veheard it said, and I wish I
could remember the attribution,but 99% of the suffering we will
experience in our lives is notreal. It's reliving something
that happened in the past thatwe can't change or projecting

(23:53):
suffering into the future thathas not yet occurred.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yes. And that is the experience there is fear.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yes. The other thing, which is I love to cook. Right?
So Top Chef is like one of myfavorite shows, and they do very
famously the blind test. Andthese are the most accomplished
chefs in the world who getselected for the show, and they
give them 30 differentingredients.
They can smell it. They cantouch it. They can taste it, but

(24:20):
they can't see it. And thepeople that win get about 60 or
70%, so I think it's a greatexample of what you're talking
Yeah,

Speaker 2 (24:28):
good one.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
So what does that dichotomy tell us about our
brain?

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Well, that is the trance, and that was not a
lemon, that was not a banana,that was a trance. And the
moment we believe it, then wesee it. But until we believe it,
we cannot see it. And that isthe mechanism of the brain. We
call it brain, but it is pureimagination.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Got it. Yeah. So when I'm in a fictitious fantasy
future struggle with my citymanager, let's say, living in
the suffering of that illusion,then I ask the questions by
applying the work, and it breaksthat illusion. It brings me back
to present moment reality whereI'm not suffering and gives me

(25:16):
insight into where I amempowered to do something about
my fear.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Is that it? And also it can show you areas where
you're on the same page and he'slightening your load.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
That person would become your teacher. It's like,
you know, what I really, reallyappreciate about you is this,
this, this and this. And whenyou said this, I need a little
clarity on that. I might bemissing something, we seem to be
separate on it and it could beme that's off. So, I mean,

(25:52):
discussions, collaboration,unity, let's say I'm in that
situation, I may discover that Iprefer that candidate in city
office, then I would be thesupporter of that candidate.
The whole thing can switch onme. It's the gratitude that I'd

(26:13):
experienced. He spared me fromrunning for office. There's so
many things possible in thatkind of collaboration and
appreciation and understanding.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yes. There's a quote that I've heard attributed to
you, and I hope that I am notapocryphally spreading it around
the coaching world, but it is,every time we fight reality, we
lose.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Yeah. Well, I say, you know, anytime you're at war
with reality, you lose with only100% of the time.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
Okay, I'm going to update that. And now I know I've
got attribution. But it's true.We can only work with what is.
And if we want to be empoweredleaders, it's our responsibility
to recognize the ground truthlevel and act from there
responsibly and collaboratively.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah. And, you know, if I win that election, I win.
If I lose that election, I win.Totally. Because I'm freed up to
help.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
I mean, I am on this journey with you right now for
that exact reason, And that hasbecome my truth.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
That would be you. Yep.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
I wanna start to talk a little bit about application.
And one of the things that I seeas a human, as a coach, and in
both of our experiences,actually, there was a large
portion of my life where I wasnot ready to even consider the
work, open your book. I thoughtI had it dialed. Ironically, I

(27:35):
was in all of those adversarialego driven behaviors that were
holding me and others back. Youhad a number of years before
this opening experience.
How do you think about findingthe moment? Right? Like, how do
people find the work, openthemselves to it? Should they
even think about that? Shouldthey let it come to them?

(27:57):
How do we deal with the realitythat a lot of us just aren't
ready for this?

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Ask it differently the same thing.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Okay. I'll ask it the way that I think people will ask
me as a as a coach. They'll saysomething like, Barb in my
office really needs to learnthis. They they're they have a
problem, but Barb is not awarethat they need this or anything
else. What does one do aboutthat?

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Oh, I hear from you that Barb has a problem. That's
all I do about it. And I mightsay, you know, what helped me is
self inquiry. And if that's ofinterest to you, then you can
find it on and then you givethem this website that offers
the work.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
If I am the one that thinks that Barb has a problem,
advice would either be to saynothing and let Barb find it on
their own, or to simply say froma place of service, hey, Barb, I
found something that was superhelpful to me. If you're
interested in knowing about it,I'd love to share it.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Oh, absolutely. That's very powerful. I was
hearing you as someone elsetelling me Barb had a problem.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
I was. I was mirroring, but now I'm putting
myself in those shoes now onthat person. Confusing over
here.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
In the first example, what I heard was you're just
telling me that Barb had aproblem. You didn't ask me would
I help her or you didn't ask mehow can I, meaning you help her?
You were just telling me Barbhas a problem.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes. So first your work would be to question your
own view. And then second wouldbe to offer from a place of
service. What if you wererunning, you know, Byron Katie
Incorporated, and you've got 50employees. Do you make people do
the work?
How do you with the desire tospread conscious thought and

(29:50):
improve people's experience, howdo you consciously encourage
people to do so or not?

Speaker 2 (29:56):
My first response is, I don't have that desire. It's
by invitation. And that's likeknocking on a door and they say,
Go away, or knocking on a doorand they politely ask you in.
But when someone invites you in,then that's what it takes for me

(30:18):
to continue. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
And in my experience, although mine wasn't actually
direct, I had an intuitionalmoment of knowing it was my time
to look inward effectively. AndI did that through books, so I
got it not directly, but what Isee most helpful is just
modeling the new behavior.People see this shift to you and
they want some of that.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Thank you. Oh, I'm just something beautiful. That's
what I see in you, Skippy.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
Oh, well thank

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, I I'm not alone in that.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Oh, thank you for that. That was very, very sweet.
And there's a legion of otherRIDE members and clients who are
doing their work, this is reallyabout them and the community.
But thank you. I I receivedthat, and I appreciate it.
So let's say you are a personwho has viewed someone else in
your office, they've had ashift, and they tell you about
this thing called the work, andyou download the worksheet.

(31:12):
Maybe you maybe you even watchone of the free online webinars
that you do every week, Ibelieve.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Three times a week.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
Three times a week. Jeez.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
My gosh. Or the community of the world three
times a week.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
So we'll link to all of that. But so now you sit
down. You're you're by yourself.You've got a worksheet. And I've
seen this happen with a lot offolks.
You you look at it. You cankinda get through the initial
part of creating your statement.How do I feel, how do I respond,
and then you get to theturnarounds, and your brain
turns to mush and you havedifficulty. How do you coach
people through You

Speaker 2 (31:44):
could experience a lot of guilt and shame too just
turning them around. The work isto question the thoughts on the
worksheet and then turn themaround. Otherwise, because
you're anchored in a situationlike, He doesn't care about me.
You probably saw an image of Himthat you've never met not caring

(32:10):
about me and in some time andplace, even if we're the ethers,
whatever, but he doesn't careabout me, I would anchor in that
situation and I would questionthat. Is there something wrong
with you with that attitude andI'm so hurt?
And then I would move that topaper where it's and the ego

(32:34):
can't shift it around or changeit, so there it is. And he
doesn't care about, There'ssomething wrong with me, is it
true? And in that situation, Isit true there's something wrong
with me? Now I'm going to getstill in that, I'm going to
meditate in that time and place.Yes.
I can say I'm out of control,something wrong with me. I'm

(32:57):
judging, my arms are flailing,I'm defending. And see, that's
not forever there's somethingwrong with me, it's in that
situation we anchor. And thennotice how I react when I think
the thought, He said, There'ssomething wrong with me.

Speaker 3 (33:14):
So

Speaker 2 (33:14):
now I don't ever have to guess at the answers, I am
anchored in that time and placewith that human being. You know,
how do I react when I think thethought, He said, There's
something wrong with me. Istrike back, I give him the
look, I cry, I blame him, andthen I see my body language, I

(33:38):
get in touch with the emotional,my shoulders. This is all in
response to meditating in. Howdo I react in that situation?
How do I react when I believethe thought? And I can see
images of the past, or I cannotexperience those emotions. I see
the past where maybe my motherjust gave me the look and I

(34:00):
believed something was wrongwith me, or the kids at school
are choosing teams, they didn'tcall on me, there's something
wrong with me, I gained weight,other people, there's something
wrong with me. I mean, all thoseimages of the past come and then
the future. This is ego's work,all those images of the not now,

(34:22):
not now past.
And then how do I react when Ibelieve the thought, There's
something wrong with me? I seeimages of the future where I'm
not ever going to measure up,etcetera, etcetera. So, we're
meditating in, getting still in,He said, There's something wrong

(34:43):
with me. Then the last question,Who would I be without the
thought when he said, There'ssomething wrong with me? And
then now I'm getting still, I'mdropping those images of past
and future.
They may still be there, but I'mjust dropping them, getting,
just becoming present, as wesay, in the now. Now I can see

(35:06):
his concern, and I can see, whowould I be without the thought,
mindful, listening, present, andthen when I turn it around, he
said, There's something wrongwith me. I said, There's
something wrong with me. That'san opposite.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
So just to kind of recap, because what I'm hearing
you say, and I'm also doing myhomework as a facilitator in the
next couple hours, really takingthe time to get still, to come
into the embodied experience, totouch in with not just the
cognitive, but the somatic andwith the physical and really

(35:48):
allowing yourself to fully getinto the experience and then
putting that on paper to groundit.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Exactly, because the images and the belief are that's
what makes up identity.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
So describing identity is owned and in that it
drops. This is the love affair.This is the love of fear with
the self.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yes. Now you switch to the turnarounds. Is there a
correct or incorrect way to do aturnaround?

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Well, yeah, it's also a state of meditation, you know.
In that situation, he said,Something's wrong with me,
turned around, There's somethingwrong with him. And I'm going to
just I see where, No, he wasright. There was something wrong
with me. I was out of control.
There's something right in him.There's something wrong with me.

(36:48):
And I can begin to own my partbecause I've seen him react when
I believe the So, I can go backand make that right. I can admit
like, Wow, you know, you reallyhad me pegged, there was
something wrong with me. Thethings that I said and did, and

(37:10):
I want to do more from you.
I see you as someone that seesme more closely than I can see
myself, and I really appreciateyou.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
And if someone gets stuck on a turnaround, you know,
they they write it down and thenthey're just drawing a blank.
What do you do with that? Do youhave an example? Sure. Let me
anonymize it from a client.
But the statement was, I am sadwith another person because they
are not putting energy into ourrelationship. And so if this

(37:44):
person now is just like sittingthere going, I don't know. I
can't think of anything. How doyou help jump start the car?

Speaker 2 (37:52):
That person is putting energy into the
relationship. Okay, let me trythat on. They're happy. They're
happy. That's energy in therelationship.
And then I would be there in thesituation to see if there are
any other turnarounds. And thenone would be, I'm not putting
energy into the relationship.Well, yes, I was. Yes, I was.

(38:14):
Okay, ego, thank you forsharing.
Just meditate in thatturnaround. I'm not putting
energy into the relationship.Okay, now I'm noticing the
energy I was putting into it,ah, was not as healthy as I'd
like it to be.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
So I'm hearing like, giving space and time, trying
things that you might notinitially think of as true,
maybe offering some examples,but just allowing yourself to
really get creative and trustingthat and following that.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Pondering in that situation, like he's unhappy
turned around, I'm unhappy inthat situation. And then I can
see he was unhappy and I'mtrying to happy him up and
change his mind and duh duh duhduh and he's not going for it. I

(39:10):
see that turnaround, I'munhappy. Yeah, when he is just
not getting that he should be ina better mood and I'm trying so
hard, I'm unhappy, which tellsme a lot about myself, Skippy.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yes. I think that's a beautiful place to kind of wrap
a bow around process and thankyou for my training. It is just
a remarkable honor to have youhere with us to share your
experience, your wisdom. I Ijust couldn't couldn't be more
grateful. And I want us to startto land the plane, and we always

(39:48):
finish the show with the thesame question for everyone.
And it's in recognition of thefact that our audience are not
passive observers, you know, asas Teddy Roosevelt or now Brene
Brown might say, these are thepeople in the arena. And so if
you were to leave them with justone thing, one thought, one

(40:09):
practice, and we might knowwhere we're going, one quote,
one anything that would bestresource them to be a personal
vector for healing our politics?What do you think that would be?

Speaker 2 (40:21):
To judge your neighbor, and that could be
anyone in your family, anyone,anywhere, worlds apart even, to
judge your neighbor, write itdown, ask for questions, and
turn it around.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
Beautiful. Oh, I do have one I'm gonna break my rule
because I have so many ByronKatie books around here, and
there's a lot to choose from. Ifyou if someone was interested in
starting, what book would youstart them with and why?

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Loving What Is.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Loving What Is. Okay. Where do people find you, your
work, sign up for courses, hireyou, all the things, bring you
into the organization, where canpeople find you?

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Oh, thework.com or ByronKatie.com.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Beautiful. Anything else we haven't touched on that
would be of value to you?

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Oh, yeah, your good work. Yeah, that would be

Speaker 1 (41:14):
of great value to me. You. Thank you. Absolute
pleasure. And now, a quick breakfrom our sponsors and we'll be
right back to the show.
Pressure. The key is knowing whoto trust. When Aspen faced short
term rental and zoningchallenges, I turned to SkyRun

(41:36):
Vacation Rentals in Aspen. Theygave it to me straight and
trusted me to do what was bestfor our community. With their
help, we crafted balancedregulations that strengthened
our economy, supported locals,and preserved our character.
If you need expert guidance in atime of STR or zoning challenge,
give them a call. And toexperience their commitment to

(41:58):
community and care in Colorado,don't take it from me, use code
HOP15, that's Healing OurPolitics 15 for 15% off a stay,
whether for yourself or someonein your community. There's a
link in the show notes. Feelfree to pass it along. The
Healing Our Politics podcast isbrought to you by the Elected

(42:21):
Leaders Collective, the firstleading and most highly
recognized name in mentalhealth, well-being, and
performance coaching for electedleaders and public servants
designed specifically for you.
Now don't be fooled by the name.The Elected Leaders Collective
is not just for elected leaders.It is for all public servants,

(42:44):
staffers, volunteers,government, nonprofit, whole
organizations. This is for you.If you are filled with passion
for improving your community andworld, but are tired as I am of
the anger, stress, and vitriol,if you find yourself banging
your head against that samewall, struggling with the

(43:05):
incoming criticism and threats,arguing with colleagues who are
supposed to be on your team andquestioning if it's even worth
it anymore, then the ElectedLeaders Collective programming
is specifically for you.
With the Elected LeadersCollective, you will learn to
become a hashtag politicalhealer, building the authentic
unshakable confidence andcourage to stay true to yourself

(43:29):
through the anger and pressurewhile cultivating the open
empathetic mind to meet otherswith the curiosity, compassion,
and kindness necessary torespond to threats, improve
challenging relationships,deescalate conflict, and bring
people in your communitytogether to solve real problems
and get shit done. You'll reducestress, anxiety, and overwhelm

(43:53):
and become a more effectiveleader while having time for
your family, yourself, yourhealth and your wealth, sleeping
well at night and showing othersthey can too. Now that's
leadership. Healing Our Politicslisteners receive 10% off all
elected leaders collectiveservices using the code hashtag

(44:14):
political healer. Use it todayand become one of the brave
political leaders healing ourpolitics.
Use code hashtag politicalhealer by going to
and starting today. That'swww.electedleaderscollective.com.
And starting today. Matt Plard,welcome to the Healing Hour

(44:38):
Politics Podcast. It is truly apleasure to have you here and to
get to see you again.
It's been a minute.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Absolutely, you too. It's such an honor to be here.
I'm so grateful for theinvitation.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
I appreciate that. We got to know each other quickly
at the YEO or Young ElectedOfficials Conference in DC. And
I met, as I always do at thoseconferences, so many remarkable
young leaders. Some of us arenot so young anymore. It's me.
But you really stood out to metruly for the kindness and grace

(45:17):
that you bring in your affect,but also the open mindedness
that you brought into oursession, your ability to
consider not just your needs,wants, and priorities, but those
of others. And that's notsomething that's common amongst
folks earlier on in theirleadership journey. I just

(45:38):
wanted to start by honoring thatin you because it was a really
standout thing that I saw.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
I appreciate you for that. It's tough to be a young
person doing this, right? Youknow, there's a lot of feelings
that come up and it's tough tonavigate that, but I've been
really privileged to have aphenomenal support system that's
given me a lot of tools. And I'mso glad that you are now part of
that support system because youhave given me so many great
tools, and I'm I'm just happy tocontribute in return. So thanks

(46:03):
for all you do.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Thanks for that brother. And you are going to be
passing along that karmic debttoday because we're doing
something really fun that wehaven't done before. Byron
Katie. Typically when Katie goeson to podcasts, she does the
work. She actually goes throughthe process.
But it felt to me reallyimportant for her to break down

(46:26):
where it came from, how tofacilitate it so that other
leaders listening to this cannot just use it for themselves,
but for their teams, and to getmore of the why. But I didn't
want to lose the magic of, well,what does this really look like
in public service? And so youhave so graciously been open to
coming on and being our guineapig and doing the work on the

(46:51):
episode. And so I'm reallyexcited to do that with you.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Sounds like fun. Let's do it. Okay.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
I do want to just to give people some context, would
you be willing to share a littlebit about your service journey?
Just give us a little snippet.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
Yeah, absolutely. So I am privileged to represent my
hometown in our town council,which I was elected to just this
past November, as one of theyoungest ever elected officials
in my in my town's history. I'vegrown up here my whole life. My
dad's grown up here my wholelife. It's all I've ever known.
And it's the community that hasraised me and loved me in my

(47:30):
most difficult moments and lovedmy family in our time of need.
And I've always wanted to getback to it. So in high school,
started out with a lot of youngpeople across the country
advocating for gun violencereform, gun safety laws in the
aftermath of the Parklandshooting. And that kind of
started my journey as anorganizer. And I went on to do a

(47:53):
lot of organizing work aroundthe climate crisis and what we
need to do to protect folks thatare vulnerable to the effects of
climate, particularly low incomepeople and folks of color in the
state of Connecticut and acrossthe country.
And, when it was time to answerthe call and be a part of
helping the neighbors that havegiven so much to me, give back

(48:13):
to them a little bit, I answeredand, now I'm a city councilor.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Beautiful. And not to bury the lead, but what is this
community you speak of?

Speaker 3 (48:21):
Sure, sure. I'm sorry, I didn't even mention
it's Newington, Connecticut.It's home to about 30,000
wonderful, beloved human beings.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Beautiful. And what has been the highlight of your
time in office so far?

Speaker 3 (48:37):
I mean, there's been so many already. We passed, on a
unanimous bipartisan basis, oneof, I think, the most
transformative but yet commonsense budgets in our town's
history. After a lot ofdisinvestment for a long time,
we, gave our education systemand our schools the largest

(48:58):
increase in twenty years. Wegave our human services
department, which had beenreally struggling post COVID,
the largest increase in adecade. And, we did all of that
while being mindful of of thecost of living that's already so
high for so many folks.
So I'm really, really proud ofthat and it goes to show I'm a
real nerd, so I went to thebudget. Well,

Speaker 1 (49:18):
bipartisan, common sense and transformative is the
secret sauce, the trifecta thatwe look to empower on this show.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
Appreciate That's truth. Oh, I'm so glad. That's
great.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Now what is the if we're being really honest,
what's been the biggestfrustration or thing that's kept
you up at night?

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Primarily, it's been two things that have worked in
tandem. The first one has beenmy age. I'm young. I'll turn 23
on Saturday.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Wow. And Happy almost birthday.

Speaker 3 (49:49):
Yeah. Thank you. And that means that there are a lot
of assumptions that folks willbring into our conversations
before I even say a word abouthow my age will inform my,
ideas, my intelligence, my workethic. And, that can be hard.

(50:09):
That can be really hard tosurmount.
And it's been very frustrating,to hear that from folks in all
parts of this, whether they'refolks that I'm meeting for the
first time or even friends andneighbors that are a little
weary of what that looks likeand how that impacts me and how
that impacts the community tohave someone so young, do this

(50:29):
work. So that's been tough. Andas a part of that, it's also
just been the pace of change.Things move slowly. Local
government moves very slowly.
And local government is wherethings are supposed to actually
get done. And sometimes whatthat means is that we work to
get things done and the processmoves at a glacial pace, you

(50:52):
know, at different levels ofgovernment. Maybe we don't have
to have that same responsibilityalways. So we, you know, the
process can be truncated. Hereit is as drawn out, exhaustive,
constructive, productivenonetheless, but analysis heavy
as it is anywhere else.
And sometimes that can befrustrating when you know that
issues are having an immediateimpact on folks' lives, whether

(51:14):
they're homelessness or foodinsecurity or, you know, a whole
range of things, help for ourseniors. It's it's really tough.
So that's that keeps

Speaker 1 (51:24):
me up. I hear that. What would you say are if you
were to pick the top two beliefsthat others come into a new
meeting or conversation with youthat they hold true or not true,
what do you think those are?What's your story about that?

Speaker 3 (51:40):
I think the first one is that I'm lazy, I must be
because I'm so young and Ihaven't lived and I haven't had
the burden of having to workhard and all of which is, you
know, just not true. A lot

Speaker 1 (51:53):
of lazy young people running for office.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Yeah, that's right. You know, I mean, come on. You
know, give me a little credithere. But that you're right. I
mean, you know, even thenthere's an assumption that
there's a certain privilegethere Mhmm.
And a certain arrogance. Mhmm.You know, I I I find that I can
dash that assumption prettyquickly, but it's still a

(52:15):
burden, an extra burden that Ihave that maybe my other
colleagues don't, and that canbe difficult.

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Now if you're really honest, do you ever have moments
privately where you have thosesame fears about yourself. I'm
lazy. I'm not doing enough.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
Yeah. All the time. All the time. You know, mean
there's always a point in theweek when you feel you've given
all you could. And then youwonder in the five minutes after
you have that first thought, isthat really all I could give?
And that's that's a struggle.And when you're this young and
you're working on these things,you're also thinking about at

(52:55):
the same time all the otherthings that a 22, 20 three year
old is thinking about. You'rethinking about how you're gonna
pay off your student I've got ahell of a lot of those I gotta
pay You're thinking about howyou're gonna maintain your
relationships with your friendsthat are moving far away and
that are off on their ownadventures. You're thinking
about the cost of living. You'rethinking about family and how

(53:17):
you're showing up for yourfamily at this very tumultuous
point in your life.
And, you know, we all have thosethings that we have to think
about too. And, sometimes theadded, pressure of, of, giving,
you know, an inhuman amount cancreep in. But we're only human,

(53:39):
you know? And the people I serveare only human.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Yeah. And

Speaker 3 (53:42):
we'd all be in the same position even if we tried
to do Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
I love that you own that and recognize that because
there's a future scenario wherewe're working together because I
just have a hunch that somepoint we will be doing that. But
really, like it's such abeautiful thing to notice what
your frustrations are becausethey're generally a mirror for
what's going on internally. Andthe truth is in applying the

(54:06):
inner work going in and clearingthat fear of laziness or not
doing enough from yourself, allof a sudden the incoming, it's
like the matrix, like thebullets stop mid air and they
just fall. When you no longerhold the belief of inadequacy,
then the incoming perceivedjudgment also stops, and it so

(54:30):
frees you to be more empoweredin your work. The examples I
would give is like if you calledsomeone who had an insecurity
about wealth, poor, they may bereally offended, it could take
them out of the game.
Promise you, you call Bill Gatespoor, he doesn't care. You
called Dwayne The Rock Johnsonweak, it's really not going to

(54:51):
bother him much. So, like, it'samazing how we can use that,
like, incoming thing to do ourown work, to free ourselves of
the base condition, and so Ijust love that you are owning
that because it's a greatexample, and the work is one way
that we become aware of thosethings. I think that's a
beautiful bridge. And what we'regoing do today is called the

(55:12):
Judge Your Neighbour Worksheet.
This is something that isavailable, it'll be in the show
notes, but Byron Katie's websitehas this as well. We will also
be putting this into our monthlynewsletter, The Leader's
Handbook. If you are not amember of that, it's free
forever. So I'm going torelinquish my coaching ness from

(55:36):
this. I'm going to take my owntraining out of this, and I'm
really going to go off of theworksheet, but just invite you
to get deeper into this processso that the listener, hey guys
and gals and others, can hearhow this gets applied and what
comes out.
Then maybe on the back end we'lllayer in a little bit of
coachiness to do something withit. We'll see how that goes. But

(55:58):
we'll just try to stick to thescript so that others can copy
and paste. Does that sound goodto you?

Speaker 3 (56:04):
That sounds wonderful. Let's do it.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
All right. So we're going to start by thinking of a
stressful situation withsomebody related to your counsel
role. This could be an argument,it could be a frustration, a
personality conflict. And thenwe are going to meditate on that
specific time and place to beginto feel what it's like, to fill

(56:27):
in the blanks. So is there asituation that is present and
salient for you that you want towork with, and you can share
whatever you want?
This will be specific and real,but you're also very welcome not
to use the person's name andjust kind of tell us the
relationship. They're on staff,they're a colleague, etcetera.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Sure, sure. Yeah. So there is one. And it has to do
with a good friend of mine, aneighbor, you know, I'll just
use just kind of generally,they're, you know, someone who's
a part of my community, who goesonline and just trolls and
trolls and trolls and I thinkcontributes to a really toxic

(57:10):
environment in our politics andthe way that we talk to each
other and show up for eachother. And it's just so
uncharacteristic of this person.
It's tough for me to, you know,know always how to approach
that.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Their real life persona or the interactions that
you have do not mirror theironline actions.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And I think they're not
the only ones who are guilty ofit while on maybe sometimes, but
they get caught up, you know, inthe rancor that's online. And
hesitate to even call it debatebecause I don't even think it
deserves the word.
It's just terrible, awful,divisive, partisan nonsense. And

(57:52):
it's tough.

Speaker 1 (57:53):
Could you give a example? We've all heard the
word trolling, but maybe noteveryone knows exactly what it
is. Could you give an example ofof the trolling behavior, maybe
a specific post or like asituation and yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Yeah. I mean, so let me think. Right now, we are in
the midst of discussing as atown an issue that we've
discussed for a long time, butthat's finally gonna get on the
ballot for the voters to make adecision about this November.
And that is a question about anaquatics facility here in the
town of Newington. And, it's ahighly divisive topic.

(58:29):
All of us kind of recognize thatit is, and it's one that has
really strong feelings on eitherside, and that has a lot of
history associated with thosereally strong feelings. And
sometimes the comments on someof these posts about this
project can assume the worstintentions of people and assume

(58:49):
that they, you know, are antiprogress that they are seeking
to destroy the community or, youknow, it's just very
inflammatory language aboutsomething that really at the end
of the day, we could have a veryfact based, evidence based back
and forth about that couldactually be pretty fairly
productive and constructive. AndI don't think that's something

(59:12):
we should shy away from.Instead, we supplant it with
this kind of really base, nasty,toxic debate, which I don't
think is helpful. So

Speaker 1 (59:21):
this neighbor has a strong opinion about the aquatic
center, and maybe in personthey're not bombastic, but
online they go on and they'reattacking the character and the
intentions of everyone on theother side in extreme terms,
which heatens the debate andkeeps people from having a
rational conversation, whichultimately keeps the aquatic

(59:41):
center happening or not fromfinding its optimum form. Is
that a fair summary?

Speaker 3 (59:46):
I think that is a fair summary. And, you know, I
mean, not to mention, I thinkthe reason it's taken so long to
get us here to the point wherewe're gonna be able to vote on
this this November is because inpart of this debate, because of
this really toxic environmentthat made this difficult to talk
about for our community, and itshouldn't be. So

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
And we probably all know some version of this. I
mean, ours that's reemergedagain is the entrance to Aspen.
Do we replace the bridge? Do wego from two lanes to four lanes?
Do we add mass transit?
I believe it is 36 public votesthat have taken place over,
like, four decades, and they'reconsidering another one. I get

(01:00:25):
to say them now since I am nolonger in that seat. It's like,
dear god. And, the knives arealways out. So I think we all
kind of know this in our ownway.

Speaker 3 (01:00:35):
That's right. Local can be tough, man. It's
unforgiving sometimes. It is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
And it's so human. It's so personal that it can
come home with Okay. So in thissituation, we're gonna put this
into a statement now. In thissituation, who angers, hurts,
confuses, saddens, ordisappoints you and why? And
we'll put it in the format of Iam blank, blank is the emotion,
so angry, pissed off, whatever,with, and we'll say, the

(01:01:02):
neighbor, or the communitymember because and then why
you're angry with them.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
So I'm disappointed in my neighbor because I think
they're contributing to a toxicenvironment around this issue
that is not actually advancingit, but is harming the way that
we talk to each other in thecommunity.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
So in this situation, how do you want your neighbor to
change? What do you want them todo?

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
So I want my neighbor to assume the best in our other
neighbors and to think for amoment that they may gain
something from the debate thatcan happen there, a constructive
debate that can happen there. Ithink I want my neighbor to show

(01:01:58):
others the same respect thatthey want in return. What is
that? The golden rule? You know,it seems kind of basic, but I
think that kind of gets to theheart of it.
Even when they think that otherperson doesn't necessarily
deserve the respect, just knowthat, you know, that that's
that's our North Star, thatwe've got to show up for one
another, and that starts withbuilding bridges and it starts

(01:02:22):
with turning down thetemperature a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yeah. Beautiful. And in this situation, what advice
do you want to offer yourneighbor? This is like a they
should or they shouldn'tstatements and you can list as
many as you have.

Speaker 3 (01:02:36):
One thing that we can all do and that they should do
is to take sixty seconds beforethey comment that nasty thing
and just take a breath or two,maybe three, and think about
before they post whether or notthat actually contributes or

(01:02:59):
detracts from the discussion ina meaningful way, in a helpful
way, in a way that, you know,might actually bridge divides
and bring people together andadvance their perspective on the
issue. I think they should bemore careful with the words that
they use. And I just want to beclear also, just, just say this

(01:03:21):
that, you know, this this is onin this specific scenario, this
is on like literally both sidesof this. It's really quite
awful. I mean, it's just howterrible that we can't talk to
each other in a way that'sconstructive, whether we agree
with one thing or we disagreewith it.
It's on both sides of this. AndI could apply it to two
different neighbors in my head.In fact, I'm thinking of two who

(01:03:44):
are on opposite sides of this,who I give the same advice. So,
yeah, I'd be more careful withlanguage, precision of language,
be more conscious of how ouractions and our words might
impact people, how it may makethem pull back from the process
and never want to contributeagain, which is bad for all of

(01:04:06):
us. I think they shouldn't bequick to judgment or quick to
anger or quick to assumesomeone's intentions, of going
back to the first one.
But they should be curious. Theyshould be curious about why
someone believes what they doand try to engage in that. And

(01:04:29):
again, maybe consider that theymay gain something from that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
I was reminded, I think it was one of the first
things. I don't know if it wasmy dad or not, but when you
assume, you make an ass out ofyou and me. And it's so true.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
And it's so hard not to do That's good.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
I live by it. It's so important. I mean, it is hard to
do. And nowadays, especially,you know, there's folks even at
the top telling us we've got toassume to make things easy, to
make things digestible. We haveto assume that this is one and
this is two and one and twocannot be three.

(01:05:06):
And That's right. You know, andthat's easy. It's easy to do
that. It's much harder to notassume and to pull back and
think for a second, you know, Imay not have it all worked out.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Mhmm. And we are leaders. We didn't get into this
to follow what someone tells usto do, to keep things the same,
to be in the status quo, and welike doing the hard thing.
That's why we're here. If wewanna do the easy thing, we
wouldn't be in these roles.
So let's finish that step. Amen.Alright. So for an order for you

(01:05:37):
to be happy you to be happy inthis situation, what do you need
your neighbor to think, say,feel, or do?

Speaker 3 (01:05:45):
I think in order for me to be happy, I need this
person, these people to listenwhen someone suggests that their
words are not helpful, to not bedefensive at the idea that they

(01:06:08):
may be saying something thatcould be harmful to our
discourse. And I need thisperson to feel for a moment how
that other person feels whenthey say what they do online.
And I don't think it's that hardbecause I think many of these
people have been in thatposition. They've been on the

(01:06:30):
receiving end of this too. So Iwant them to think about and
feel what that felt like and howdifficult that was and
frustrating and upsetting thatwas and how it maybe made them
pull back for a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:06:48):
Yeah. So now this is the fun part where you get to
forget you're on a podcast atall and be as petty and
judgmental and angry as youwant. And it's a podcast. You
can be fucking angry if youwant. So what do you think of
this neighbor or neighbors inthis situation being as petty or

(01:07:11):
judgmental as you want?

Speaker 3 (01:07:13):
I think they're ignorant, arrogant,
hypocritical, hateful, harmful,cynical, cynical, deeply
cynical. Just a plain asshole. Ithink they're just rude and mean
spirited and kind ofunconscious, you know, like

(01:07:36):
unthinking, just like likesaying things like as they come
without like caution or regardfor like how that impacts a
person. Yeah, just hateful,awful. And they're not those
these, you know, I would tend tothink people are not hateful.
So it just is how I feel is likeconfused, just confused why some

(01:07:58):
would choose the path oftrolling and hatred. It's so
corrosive.

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Yeah. You just called a whole group of people
assholes, and it sounded sonice.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
I know. It's like you

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
did such a kind voice. It's amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
I tend to be a little understated, but I can get in
trouble with my ties.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
That's good. That's good. No. I hear and I have felt
all of those things in the samesituation. I really have.
I really have. So what is itabout this neighbor or situation
that you don't ever want toexperience again?

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
I don't ever want to, I think, see I mean, certainly I
don't want to see this discourseagain, but I and this kind of,
like, you know, petty nonsenseagain. But I think what I don't
ever want to see again inparticular is is just this like
unconscious, unthinking,unwieldy, without direction or

(01:09:00):
purpose, anger, just visceralanger about the world or about
your quote unquote opposition.You know, I just I don't ever
want to see that again because Ithink it's it's just so so
harmful to everything that wecare about, that whether we
believe one thing or another,whether we're on one side of an

(01:09:22):
issue or another, it's just it'sjust harmful. And it and it it
destroys our sense of place, oursense of community. It destroys
our neighborhoods.
Just an awful thing for for itmakes an ass out of you and me,
I think is the way to sum it up.It's true.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
Yeah. Okay. So we got a real clear sense of what's
going on. I'm gonna invite youfor this next kind of line of
questioning, the four questions,to close the eyes and to take a
moment to put yourself back inthe experience. Could be a
specific one or a composite ofreading one of these comments

(01:09:59):
that really triggered thesefeelings of anger in you, these
feelings of judgment of theirignorance, etcetera.
And I'll invite you to visualizethat situation and drop into it
and allow those emotions to comeback into your body. Allow
yourself to feel what you feltat that time to let the anger

(01:10:22):
course through. To noticesomatically what's happening in
your body. Is there pressure,temperature, density, tightness?
Just noticing it all.
And from this place I'm going toread back to you your initial

(01:10:44):
statement which is I'mdisappointed in my neighbor
because they are contributing toa toxic environment about this
issue and harming our community.The first question is a simple
yesno question. Is thatstatement true?

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Follow-up question: Can you absolutely know without
any shadow of a doubt in anysituation that that statement is
true?

Speaker 3 (01:11:10):
No. And I think the reason is because this person
doesn't think that theircontributions are harmful. In
fact, they think whether they'reon one side of the issue or the
other that they're speaking forsomething that is actually
beneficial to our community.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
So no, you can't absolutely know.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
And I invite you to stay in it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Stay with it. And I'm asking you to stay with it
because as you said, you reallywant to be present in this
moment and get the lesson out ofit. And when we open the eyes
and go back into rationalstorytelling, we come entirely
back up into the head, which iswhere we tend to live. We close
the eyes and drop into theexperience, then we get the

(01:11:57):
benefit of the intellect as wellas the somatic, body and
emotional knowledge bases. Andso we're just going to stay in
all of that.
So when you believe this thoughtis true, that they are
contributing to toxicity andharming the community, How do
you react to that?

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
I react angrily. I'm upset. I feel tense, a certain
tension. I'm aggravated. I feellike there's a missed
opportunity.
Like the damage is kind of done.Yeah. Just upset.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
Yeah. Internal anger going on. Do your behaviors
change at all? Do you losesleep? Do you grab a piece of
pizza instead of a salad?
Do you get short with a partneror loved one?

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
I will. I definitely grab a pizza instead of a salad.
That's the perfect. But yeah, Ido. I get irritable.
The divisiveness kind of rubsoff and let the frustration
fester for a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
Yeah. And how does your leadership shift, even if
only for a moment, when youbelieve that thought is true?

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
I think I when I see that happening, I revert to kind
of a sense of failure because Ifeel like that's a, you know,
big motivator of mine is likekind of deconstructing this
toxic environment. So yeah, I goback to a sense of like
defensiveness and I feel like Ikind of look back on the

(01:13:34):
previous months and wonder aboutmissteps. I mean, do that
anyway, but I I do it that muchmore so in kind of an
interpersonal way. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:45):
Yeah. So you're angry, you're frustrated, you're
short, you are less healthy orconscious, you start to embody
some of these things that youjudge and you retract away from
some of the reasons why you'veshowed up. Is that a fair Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
Think that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
Yeah. Yeah. So now who would you be without that
thought? If you could truly letit free, who or how would you be
different?

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
I think I would be a little more understanding, give
a little more grace and justallow myself to be a little more
open to understand why somepeople may react in a way that I
think is objectionable. Yeah, Ithink I'd be a little more open

(01:14:37):
to that rather than justallowing that first reaction to
kind of dictate the rest.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Beautiful. So we're now going to move into what are
called turnarounds. And so youare going to create four
reconstructions of the initialstatement, which are opposites
in some way. They can beopposites in any way you want,
you can flip them around. I willreread the statement again and
then you'll come up with anopposite.

(01:15:04):
And then I'll work you throughthe process for each one. We'll
do one at a time. So the initialstatement is I'm disappointed in
my neighbor because they arecontributing to a toxic
environment around this issueand harming our community. What
would be a first turnaround?

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
I am disappointed in myself for contributing to a
toxic environment and harmingthe discourse, harming the
community in the process.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
Yeah. Really powerful one. And how might, doesn't mean
it is, but how could that betrue or truer than the initial
statement?

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Yeah I think when you have such a clear sense of what
in this issue dictatesobjectionable behavior and what
doesn't, you kind of lose sightthat like maybe that compass for
you is could be kind of off.Maybe you maybe you're wrong.
And, you know, maybe you toohave some kind of objectionable

(01:16:05):
contributions to the discourse.

Speaker 1 (01:16:08):
And, Matt, you're you're nailing it. And I'm just
gonna invite you just for to getthe full benefit of the
experience to stay in ownershiplanguage. So I rather than you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:18):
So I yeah. I feel like I sometimes lose sight that
that compass might be off, thatI may be contributing in some
way that's harmful withoutactually recognizing it myself.
And I don't necessarily maybehold myself accountable in the
way that I hold others toaccount for those potentially

(01:16:41):
harmful or potentiallyobjectionable contributions.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. What else? How else
might that be true?

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
You know, I I'm repeatedly disappointed in
myself for feeling like I couldhave done more. Like I could
point the ship of the discoursein a different direction more,
you know, and sometimes it'seven just a word or two, you
know, that I try to be mindfulof removing from my vernacular,

(01:17:13):
and I slip and I say it, and Ithat's very disappointing for
me. I'm very disappointed inmyself in those moments. So that
is certainly true.

Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
Yeah. Any other ways that you might be disappointed
in yourself for contributing tothe toxicity around this issue
and harm in your community?

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
I'm disappointed sometimes in even the, like, the
walls that I can put up, youknow, similar to what I first
said, but without even sayinganything sometimes, just the
fact that I I am an electedofficial, you know, and I
identify with one party and andone sense of the world and ideas

(01:17:52):
around it can kind of beat awall in its own right. And I
don't always give credit to howvalid that is and legitimate it
is that like, some will see thatand say, you know, that's for
me. So I I think I let myselfdown a little bit sometimes by
not fully seeing that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Beautiful. Beautiful. Does that feel complete on that
turnaround?

Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
Yeah. It does.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
What would be another turnaround?

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):
I think I'm I'm I mean, I'm I'm proud of my
neighbor for contributing to aproductive, environment and
benefiting the community. That'sthat's one.

Speaker 1 (01:18:32):
Yeah, that's a great one. How could that be true?

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
I I mean, I think it's true every day. I will see
the same people talk about howprivileged we are to live in the
community that we do and what,blessing it is to have the great
schools that we do and, youknow, the great fire department
that we do and things like that.And that's, is certainly true.

(01:18:57):
They say that as well.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
Yeah. How else might that be true? So that's a real
that is a real truth. They'redoing that. How else might it be
true?

Speaker 3 (01:19:05):
You know, I think it goes back before to a little bit
about the rigid compass and howrigid it necessarily needs to
be, you know, that this person,even in their most pointed
moments online or in thediscourse, so to speak, might
still be contributing somethingthat's actually really

(01:19:27):
beneficial, might be puttingamidst the tirade a piece of
information, a fact that othersdidn't know, and that's actually
really important for them toknow. And that's that benefits
our community. That doesn't harmit. That's that's actually
really important. And that coulddefinitely be true too.

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):
Yeah. Would it be okay with you if I just put in
one just for the sake ofinspiring others to think
outside the box to see how theprocess works? And I have no
idea what side this person topersons is on. I know nothing
about this issue. This is purelyhypothetical.
But let's just assume that thisneighbor is on the anti aquatic

(01:20:11):
side. And it turns out that hadthe aquatic center been built,
it would have been would havebeen construction defects and
ongoing litigation. It wouldn'thave opened for five years. It
drains the coffers of thecommunity. It takes funds out of
that schooling system you alllove, it becomes a greater point

(01:20:32):
of contention for having evenbeen built, and thanks to their
bombastic online comments, itdoesn't get built, and they save
the community all this possibleturmoil.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
Yeah, I mean, that's a tough pill to swallow. It
could certainly it couldcertainly be the truth. I mean,
you know, it could certainly bethe case that, you know, I think
in anything we're we're going toidentify pieces of this that the
other doesn't. And, that couldcertainly be the case. You know,

(01:21:03):
that kind of oversight andaccountability and, skepticism,
healthy skepticism can actuallybe very, very, very beneficial.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
And I share that, for, again, knowing nothing
about it, having no position. Wedon't do any policy on the show.
But simply to give an example ofwhat this exercise is about is
like really stretching beyondwhat you think or believe is
true to what's possible toexpand your observation of the

(01:21:34):
situation for your own benefitand ultimately for the benefit
of what you're working towards.Thank you for letting

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
me Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
You. Okay. So what would be a third turnaround?

Speaker 3 (01:21:43):
I think maybe I'm disappointed in my neighbor for
for not contributing to thediscussion, for kind of holding
back, for not being a part ofit.

Speaker 1 (01:21:54):
Yeah. Great one. How might that be true or true?

Speaker 3 (01:21:59):
When issues come up, we all have limited bandwidth to
respond. And sometimes I canfind it kind of curious why we
might choose to, or my neighborin this example might choose to
withhold comments, you know,intentionally or not, just

(01:22:21):
choose not to weigh in. Happensall the time, you know?

Speaker 1 (01:22:25):
Yeah. How else might it be true?

Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
I think it could be true because there's, a certain
feeling sometimes that othersare already doing the talking.
And why do I need to jump in?Why do they need to jump in? It
can feel like voices are gettingcrowded out and that's just is
what it is. And there's nothingyou really benefit from being a

(01:22:50):
part of it, jumping in orcontributing your voice.
So you just kind of withhold it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:55):
So there's more that they could be saying, but
because of that, they're not andthey're robbing the community of
input.

Speaker 3 (01:23:02):
Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
Yeah. Beautiful. Anything else on this one?

Speaker 3 (01:23:08):
It's funny because, you know, we or something that
I'm thinking about a lot is thisis where most people fall.
Right? I mean, is where themajority of folks live. They see
the rancor

Speaker 1 (01:23:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
And they pull back, or they see the debate and they
stay out of it. There's acertain grace that you have to
give to that because of all ofthe, you know, the whole context
of the discussion we just had,it may actually be pretty,
rational to jump out, given howdifficult it can sometimes be

(01:23:42):
and all the considerations youhave to have before you jump
into

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
the Yeah. I'll share an observation of mine. I've
seen this happen. From thepeople like the neighbor who are
viscerally involved online, butthey're so in their space of
anger that we hear some of whatthey say, but actually a lot of
the constructive arguments thatthey have never make it forward
because they're blocked by theanger. So maybe this person has

(01:24:05):
a lot more that they could shareif they were in a different
mental space.

Speaker 3 (01:24:08):
Yeah. I think that's so right. I think that's so
right. We you know, there'sthere's kind of a knee jerk
reaction that becomes thedefault, and there's no
expansion beyond that. Andthat's that you're right.
I mean, that robs both them ofthe opportunity to gain from
that exchange, and it robs thecommunity of their great ideas
and what they have tocontribute. And we wanna hear

(01:24:31):
that too.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
Yeah. Beautiful. Final turnaround.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
I'll try to think of one.

Speaker 1 (01:24:36):
It's okay. It's great. It can be challenging and
there's no right or wrong,right? Like, you know, you can
perseverate over just the rightturnaround. Doesn't matter.
Any anyone will work.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
I'm proud of my neighbor for contributing at
all, whether it's objectionableor harmful in my view or not.
They're speaking up. I'm proudof them for doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:58):
Right, so the turnaround would be I'm proud of
my neighbor for contributing tothe toxicity and harming my
community and the first truthabout that is at least they're
trying, at least they'reinvolved, they're doing
something rather than nothing.Yeah,

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
think that's right. I think that's right. It's, yeah,
they're trying, you know, andthey're contributing their voice
to the process and for a millionreasons that's more than a lot
of people can say or do. Iappreciate them for that. I
appreciate that their impulse isto lean in and contribute and

(01:25:37):
not to step away, even if thatstep away may be rational or
legitimate for all the reasonswe talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
Any other closing reasons that could be true?

Speaker 3 (01:25:47):
You know, I think in our worst moments, sometimes it
can be true because we like whatthey're saying secretly.

Speaker 1 (01:25:58):
Sometimes I'm on their side when they're doing
these things. Juicy and so real.Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26:03):
It feels good to be angry sometimes. It feels good
to dunk on someone. Right? Imean, that's like, it's a really
good feeling. And, there's likesomething I love Toni Morrison,
and she said something that Ilike, I think about all the
time.
And she was talking about whitesupremacy and racism in

(01:26:26):
particular. And I think itapplies broadly. And she kind of
said the same to just generallyforms of hate, which is that
it's about feeling good. It'sabout getting something from an
exchange that benefits you. Andthe benefit there is joy,
excitement, is a thrill, youknow, is in many cases power.

(01:26:52):
It's feeling like I found theperfect argument to really put
them in their place, you know? Imean, that's, there's a certain
power there that can feel reallygood. And, at our worst moments,
think we might see that. And ourknee jerk might not be, oh,
that's so toxic. It might be,yeah, I get them, you know?
And that's, that's tough.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
Yeah, I've felt that before too. I'd be surprised if
there's anyone who hasn't. Andif so, you should also come take
this job and Yes. It's part ofthe human experience. It is part
of the human experience.
Beautiful. Thank you for reallygoing there. And so now what I
want to invite you to do is justclose the eyes, drop into that

(01:27:36):
experience for a moment. Takemaybe five rounds of breath.
Just really let all that soak inand then stream of
consciousness.
Just share with us what's comingup for you through that
exercise.

Speaker 3 (01:27:53):
I feel certain accountability, self
accountability in a way that Ididn't necessarily about this
before. And this kind of isspoken to in, in the book and in
the work that this was a themproblem, not a me problem. And

(01:28:13):
that the solutions then lied inthem and not me. And I think I'm
having a realization to a largeextent that, you know, there's a
lack of grace that I was givingthem in some of those instances,
or withholding of the benefit ofthe doubt. And I was making

(01:28:35):
assumptions of them in thosemoments.
And I kind of need to reflect onthat more and hold myself
accountable to realize that, youknow, sometimes the compass
doesn't point accurately. And,you know, you gotta think about
why others are coming to theconclusions they are about the

(01:28:57):
world and why they're making thestatements they are informed by
those conclusions and give spacefor that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
So Beautiful. Beautiful. So that for the
audience completes theworksheet. But of course in your
life, what you're going to wantto do is then take those
realizations and put them intosome form of action that
improves your experience and theleadership that you provide for
your community or organization,etcetera. And so I'm curious,

(01:29:27):
Matt, how can you take thatawareness out into the world in
a way that stands to up level,to do the opposite, to detoxify,
to reduce harm, not just forthis neighbor, not just for you,
but for the community?

Speaker 3 (01:29:44):
So I think I'm going to think a lot more about what
polarization really is and whyit's there and kind of goes back
to the little bit that wediscussed that a lot of it is
about feeling good and thatthere's something happening

(01:30:05):
there when we need to seek outsomething good. It means that
we're, you know, if we'relooking for something, it's just
we don't have it. And so ifwe're looking for power or joy
or excitement or, you know, asense that we've accomplished
something in an exchange, evenif we're looking for it in the

(01:30:27):
wrong places, we're looking forit because we don't have it. And
so I think I'm going to give alot more thought to how as a
leader, I show up aroundpolarization to kind of give
folks something else to findthat joy and something else to
find that sense of empowermentand something else to find that

(01:30:50):
sense of accomplishment inthrough discourse and through
democracy. So I, you know, therethere's a few ways I can think
about doing that.
You know, we do one thing, wehave in our town for a few
years. We do this youth forumhere in Newington where we
invite young people to come outand kind of share their
perspectives and share theirideas. And we, you know, target

(01:31:15):
it at what is often thought ofas this kind of apathetic
generation that doesn't want tobe a part of any of it. And it's
always a great success because Ithink we're giving alternative
tools for engagement that don'tneed to hate other people and
that don't need to harm ourneighbors and that don't need to

(01:31:38):
show up in ways that are maybetoxic or or harmful to our
community and to ourselves. It'sgiving folks other ways to show
up and be there for one another.
So I think we'll do more of thatand think about ways that we can
do it, not just for young folkslike me, but but, other folks
across town too.

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):
Beautiful. And what would be a specific time bound
achievable action that you couldcommit to over the next, say one
or two weeks to start to movethe needle in that direction?

Speaker 3 (01:32:14):
I think, the first thing is gonna be reaching out
to my colleagues on the otherside of the aisle and talking to
them about how this issue isshowing up for them among the
people that, you know, theirfriends and family with and
among the people that may sharetheir view of the world and
assumptions about the world.

Speaker 1 (01:32:33):
Beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:32:34):
I think that kind of sit down chat investigation
together could actually bereally beneficial and, you know,
make it so we can kind of liftall boats with the tide, on both
sides of the And

Speaker 1 (01:32:49):
one of the best curative balms for the disease
of assumption is curiosity.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
Amen. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the truth.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
Amazing. Amazing. I'm gonna just of close this out
with just a liner because youreally talked about the joy that
can come from anger, I also wantto just editorialize a little
bit on what drives anger, what'sunder anger. It's always fear.
And if we think about sort of agratuitous example from movies,

(01:33:24):
you know, if there's a movie,and I wish I could come up with
a specific right now, if you'vegot one fill it in, but you
know, there's a happy family andsomeone kills a family member,
like we are disgusted, we'redistraught, we're it's a
terrible thing to watch becausethey're in a loving environment
and something terrible happens.
But in the movie where the badguy keeps getting away with
something and getting away withsomething and hurting more

(01:33:45):
people and then they get killedin the last scene, we all like
cheer that because we're afraidand we've now relieved the fear
through the act of violence. Andso as much as it is about
finding an alternative mechanismof release for that, which is
effective, there's also aquestion of how do we release
the fear from those who wedisagree with? How do we invite

(01:34:07):
them into the circle ofcommunity and trust to let them
know that they have a place anda part here so that over time
the fear no longer needs to findits action and anger?

Speaker 3 (01:34:18):
I think that's so beautifully said. When things
are as polarizing as they are,it's like the, you know, the war
of civilizations. It feels likethere are two visions, typically
two, sometimes many more, buttwo visions of the world that
are completely incompatible andthat require one's destruction

(01:34:43):
over the other in order to findsome kind of conclusion. And we
talk about elections and talkabout the world and the stakes
of politics in apocalyptic termsthese days. Yeah.
It can be really difficult tofind alternatives to that. And

(01:35:04):
one thing that I've tried tohold myself accountable to is to
recognize the stakes indiscourse without scaring
people. You know, there was onething that I think about a lot.
I, when I was organizing aroundclimate and environmental
justice, there was this actionthat I did. I'd never done

(01:35:24):
anything like it before, and Istormed into a room of folks
among others, and was with agroup of other organizers,
unfurled the banner, and chantedand protest the fossil fuel
investments.
And I was proud of that actionin a lot of ways. But as I I I

(01:35:46):
was also scared of it becausewhat I saw in that room when I
entered it on the faces of thosepeople were that were there was
that in that moment, there was alack of control of the
situation. There's no idea whatwas happening. And there was
real fear, real fear. And it ittook me a long time to kind of

(01:36:10):
wrestle with the efficacy ofthat action, which didn't
actually move the needle verymuch on the issues that we cared
about.
But, you know, in some waysmaybe felt like good or
actionable. It felt like,efficacious. But, at the end of
the day, the biggest effect thatI think it had was it made

(01:36:30):
people scared of the movement inthat moment. And, you know, that
was difficult for me to contendwith. But fear is a very
powerful thing.
And whenever we can avoid it,whenever we can choose not to
contribute to it while stilladvancing the issues that we
care about, I think we ought totake those chances.

Speaker 1 (01:36:49):
Yeah. Amen. Matt, you are a remarkable human and
leader at 22. You will be aremarkable human at 23 in just a
few days. Thank you.
33 and on and on. And I'm reallyexcited to see your growth and
what you're able to do. And I soappreciate that at a young age
you have a recognition of thecriticality of radical ownership

(01:37:15):
in your leadership. You cantruly only take a community or
an organization as far as you'vetaken yourself. You can only
understand others to the levelthat you understand yourself.
And the biggest unlock tolegendary leadership and
bridging leadership is knowingthyself first so that you may
know others. And in my work as acoach at ELC, when we do cohorts

(01:37:37):
and groups, it's, you know,whoever wants to be there is
welcome to be there. It's aboutconnection, it's about skill
building, but I only have somany slots for one to one
clients. It's a much like higherlevel of personalization. And so
when I do what's called aclarity session, which is trying
to just figure out if this isthe right tool for someone else
or if there's somewhere else,and very often it'll be like,

(01:37:59):
hey, I think this is a betterprogram, a better place to go.
But after we go through thewhole process, one of the
questions that I asked folks is,you know, this is where you are
on a one to 10 scale, selfidentified versus your goal. So
you're at a three right now.Over the next, whatever that
duration is, six months, twelvemonths, what is your level of

(01:38:20):
motivation to invest in yourselfto get to a 10 with the one
being like I would not get outof bed in the morning to do it
and a 10 being this will be themost important thing that I
focus on. And if people are notan eight or higher, I won't take
them on as clients. And thereason for that is I have an

(01:38:41):
equation that I've built, whichis progress equals ownership
over one times motivation overone.
Right? So if you are a one ofone, if you're a % or 10 in both
of those things, then your ratiois one to one. You can get one
unit of progress out of everyunit of time. But if you show up

(01:39:01):
with a % motivation, but you'reonly willing to own half your
shit, the most progress you'regonna make is 50% of the
possible. If you show up withhalf of each, the most you're
gonna get is 25%.
And I'm not interested inwasting their time or my time.
Like go figure that piece outfirst and then come back. But to
see someone as young as you withthe self awareness to take that,

(01:39:24):
like really prescribes abeautiful future for you and
your community. So I just wantto finish where we started by
honoring you and your leadershipand just saying how grateful I
am to have you on the show andto know you in this universe.
And I really appreciate yourtime, brother.

Speaker 3 (01:39:39):
I appreciate you. I'm so grateful to be here. Thank
you for having me and for allthat you do.

Speaker 1 (01:39:46):
Thank you so much for joining us today. If you want to
put what you've heard here todayinto practice, sign up for our
newsletter, The Leader'sHandbook, where each month
you'll receive just one emailwith curated selection of the
most useful tools and practicesdiscussed on this podcast today
and over the course of the lastmonth, delivered in simple how

(01:40:08):
to worksheets, videos, and audioguides so you and your teams can
try and test these out in yourown life and see what best
serves you. And lastly, if youwanna be a vector for Healing
Our Politics, if you wanna doyour part, take out your phone
right now and share this podcastwith five colleagues you care
about. Send a simple text, dropa line, and leave the ball in

(01:40:32):
their court. Because the truthis, the more those around you do
their work, the better it willshow up in your life, in your
community, and in your world.
Have a beautiful day. Asleaders, we all face contentious

(01:40:55):
situations. As an Aspen CityCouncilman, I navigated some of
the most contentious STR andland use conversations in a
generation. And while most wereengaged in a food fight, profit
versus community, SkyrunVacation Rentals, a company
built on community first valuesfor twenty years that I know
personally, helped me find asolution that created positive

(01:41:16):
outcomes for everyone. If youwant responsible vacation
rentals in your community tostrengthen the local economy,
SkyRun is the vacation rentalcompany for you.
To experience their commitmentto care and community up close,
use code h o p 15, that'shealing our politics one five,
for 15% off a stay at one oftheir locations, whether for

(01:41:37):
yourself or someone in yourcommunity. There's a link in the
show notes below. Feel free toshare Politics Podcast is
brought to you by the ElectedLeaders Collective, the first
leading and most highlyrecognized name in mental
health, well-being, andperformance coaching for elected

(01:42:00):
leaders and public servantsdesigned specifically for you.
Now don't be fooled by the name.The Elected Leaders Collective
is not just for elected leaders.
It is for all public servants,staffers, volunteers,
government, nonprofit, wholeorganizations, this is for you.

(01:42:20):
If you are filled with passionfor improving your community and
world, but are tired as I am ofthe anger, stress, and vitriol,
if you find yourself bangingyour head against that same
wall, struggling with theincoming criticism and threats,
arguing with colleagues who aresupposed to be on your team, and
questioning if it's even worthit anymore, then the Elected

(01:42:44):
Leaders Collective programmingis specifically for you. With
the Elected Leaders Collective,you will learn to become a
hashtag political healer,building the authentic
unshakable confidence andcourage to stay true to yourself
through the anger and pressurewhile cultivating the open
empathetic mind to meet otherswith the curiosity, compassion,

(01:43:06):
and kindness necessary torespond to threats, improve
challenging relationships,deescalate conflict, and bring
people in your communitytogether to solve real problems
and get shit done. You'll reducestress, anxiety, and overwhelm
and become a more effectiveleader while having time for

(01:43:26):
your family, yourself, yourhealth, and your wealth,
sleeping well at night, andshowing others they can too. Now
that's leadership.
Healing Our Politics listenersreceive 10% off all elected
leaders collective servicesusing the code PoliticalHealer.
Use it today and become one ofthe brave political leaders

(01:43:47):
healing our politics. Use codehashtag political healer by
going towww.electedleaderscollective.com
and starting today. That'swww.electedleaderscollective.com
and starting today.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Behind the Method: How The Work Came to be w/ Byron Katie and an Exercise in Application to Public Service w/ Matt Plourd

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Behind the Method: How The Work Came to be w/ Byron Katie and an Exercise in Application to Public Service w/ Matt Plourd

24/7 News: The Latest