Pocket Pebbles and Perspective: Navigating Life's Complexities w/ Dr. Jerome Burt II

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Guest:
Dr. Jerome Burt II is a clinical psychologist, therapist, and Ph.D. based at the Heritage Group in Nashville, Tennessee, with an expansive career that blends deep expertise in psychology with a uniquely diverse background. He earned his M.A. and Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from the University of Mississippi, followed by a Postdoctoral Residency at the Psychological and Counseling Center at Vanderbilt University, but his career path has been anything but traditional—before becoming a psychologist, he spent 20 years as a personal trainer and fitness instructor.  With expertise in neuroscience, emotional intelligence, and human behavior, Dr. Burt II’s work spans a wide range of individuals, from Forbes-featured CEOs to college graduates figuring out what's next. He has been a featured TED speaker, with his talk, How a Dinner Party Can Save Your Life, and recently hosted TEDx in Nashville. As the co-host of the Billboard Happiness Podcast, Jerome redefines the way we think about psychology, infusing it with his deep belief in the redemptive power of good friends, good food, and good conversation. In his sixth decade, he is a convener of community, a preacher of possibility, and an acolyte of abundance. Anyone lucky enough to know him can attest to his ability to transform lives!

About the Episode: 

In today’s conversation, I’m joined by Dr. Jerome Burt II, a mentor, friend, and one of the most intentional people I know. We dive into the importance of elders and your social network, and how surrounding yourself with the right people can propel you to success. Jerome shares how something as simple as a dinner party can save your life, why ease leads to dis-ease, and the concept of pocket pebbles for personal freedom. Packed with fun anecdotes, and valuable insights, we get into everything from navigating anger to the importance of professional—and non-professional—support in shifting from blame and shame to effective leadership. We discuss using annual retreats to unite teams, how exercise and home-cooked meals can elevate your leadership, and building connections across partisan divides. You’ll also hear about the science of being the good Samaritan, the distinction between "getting shit done" juice and "cuddle juice," and how to tap into them to elicit the best from your nervous system. We explore the five S's of success, the power of mentorship, and the importance of being lovingly challenged. Jerome’s wisdom, heart, and vision will challenge you to think about leadership in a whole new way. 

Key Topics Discussed:    

· [00:01:05] Guest/Episode Intro 

· [00:04:46] ! Naked ! A ‘No Notes’ Conversation !

· [00:05:10] An Interesting Morning 

· [00:09:09] Having a Cold, but staying Heart Healthy 

· [00:10:38] Heart Hardening & Stories of Righteousness

· [00:12:25]How Long Have We Known Each Other? (The Best Question) 

· [00:15:16] Slay The Dragon 

· [00:17:30] Why Do We Get Stuck in Mental Constructructs?: The Juices 

· [00:19:48] The Good Samaritan (is n

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Healing Our Politics podcast,
the show that shows you how toheal our politics by starting
with the human in the mirror. Myname is Skippy, coach, former
elected official, and lifetimepublic servant. It is my job to
sit down with the best thoughtleaders, coaches, therapists,
authors, scientists, and more,and to take the best of what

(00:25):
they have learned and translateit specifically for the public
service experience. Warning,this is a postpartisan space. No
policy, party, or partisanshiphere because well-being belongs
to all of us.
This show is about resourcingyou and trusting you to make up
your own damn mind about what todo with it and what's best for

(00:47):
your community. So as always,with love, here we go. Welcome
to the Healing Our Politicspodcast, the show that shows
you, the heart centered leader,how to heal our politics by
starting with the human in themirror. Today, I have something
and someone very special foryou, Doctor. Jerome Burt II, a

(01:12):
mentor, a close friend of minefor well over a decade and a
trusted elder.
Yes, he calls himself an eldernow, so I can do that, who I
call on for perspective,guidance, and insight. Jerome is
a clinical psychologist,therapist, and PhD at the
Heritage Group in Nashville,Tennessee, but he is so much

(01:32):
more. A TED speaker with a talk,how a dinner party can save your
life, and recently the host ofTEDx in Nashville, Tennessee,
the cohost of the BillboardHappiness podcast, Jerome does
psychology differently. Jeromehas deep knowledge of
neuroscience, emotionalintelligence, and humans gained

(01:55):
through a quite unconventionallife. A committed fitness guru
who was once acclaimed forinventing and teaching gerobics,
true story, at Ole MissUniversity, Jerome still takes
double digit mile runs regularlyin the hills and mountains in
his sixth decade of life.
Jerome is a convener ofcommunity, a preacher of the

(02:17):
possible, and an acolyte ofabundance, and simply put, the
most intentional human I know.In this episode, we get into the
importance of elders and yoursocial network, highlighting the
people you wanna kick it with soyou can kick butt out in the
world. We talk about how adinner party can save your life,

(02:38):
how ease leads to dis ease andpocket pebbles for personal
freedom. Jerome is full of funanecdotes, rhymes, and memorable
insights. We talk about being aleader who's angry and how to
use that experience to find theright professional or
nonprofessional support to allowyou to come out of blame and

(03:01):
shame and into leadership, outof martyrdom and into
leadership.
We talk about using annualretreats to bring your team
together across differences andacross party to deliver more for
your community. We talk aboutthe benefits of exercise and
home cooked meals to make you abetter leader. Building

(03:23):
connection across partisanboundaries, being the Good
Samaritan and the science behindthat. The distinction between
getting shit done juice, GTD,not to be confused with Paul
Allen, also on the podcast, andcuddle juice. What are they?
How do you elicit them in yournervous system? And what are

(03:44):
they good for? We talk aboutpathology and how to break
through it. The five S's ofsuccess, mentorship, and the
importance of being lovinglychallenged. The power of telling
stories and shifting our storiesabout ourselves to ourselves.
And we get deep, deep, deep intohardening and heart opening

(04:06):
behaviors and what you can do asa leader to move from condition
A to condition B for the benefitof yourself, your community,
your office or organization, andour world. So I hope you enjoy
this beautiful, loving, direct,and insightful conversation with
my good friend and mentor,Doctor. Jerome Burt II.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Hey, brother. Nice to see you. I've got a cold.
However, in my journal thismorning, I was like, I'm excited
to see what Skippy elicits andstirs in me today with his
questions.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
I am coming into this conversation naked. Normally,
have so much, like, you know,prep and notes and whatever, but
you really called me forwardinto like, let's just have a
conversation. So I have atotally blank slate in front of
me. Yeah, man, I'm just lookingforward to dropping in.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Let's go. Let's talk. What's going on with you?

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Oh, man. We had an interesting morning. We had a
really interesting morning. Wehave a older couple that are
sort of like mentors in a way, Iguess, to us. I don't know
mentors is quite right, but theyhave been part of our community.
We have a ton of overlap inwork. We lived in their house
for a while and they've beensupportive of us over the years.

(05:32):
And while that's true thatthey've been supportive of us
and we've loved what they'vedone, we've also had points of
friction over the years andwe've been able to work through
that. But the relationship hasbeen complicated. That has
impacted Jamie a lot more thanmyself because she is very
conflict averse and can get veryemotionally triggered when she

(05:56):
thinks that she's causingemotional harm to someone else,
whether that's true or not.
So when we were living in thishouse, probably every two months
she'd be in tears oversomething, some story in her
head about our upstairsneighbors who are also giving us
this beautiful place to be inAspen, all this great stuff
holding that dichotomy. Andwe're planning our wedding right

(06:16):
now. And we made a decision tokeep our wedding really small,
really small. Our aim is 50folks. That means not inviting a
lot of people you really careabout.
Aunts and uncles, cousins,people that have been friends
since I was five. It was reallyhard to come down to that list.

(06:37):
But we did and they weren't onthat list. They're on our bigger
party list in Aspen and we'reexcited to have them there but
they're not on that 50 personlist. And Jamie intuited that
they were going to be reallyhurt and upset and she got into
one of those zones where she wasjust like really turned up
inside.
And I was so proud of herbecause instead of running from

(06:59):
the conflict, she said, You knowwhat? No, I wanna have what we
would call in our house thecarefrontation. And I want to
proactively ask this person tosit down and to explain our
decision and to own our decisionand to talk about it. And I just
thought that was so beautiful.So I've been supporting her for
the last week in that she hadthis sit down two days ago, and

(07:23):
it went really well.
It was super well received. Shewas on top of the world. And
then they texted her rightafter, after the person she had
the conversation with got homeand spoke to her husband. And
they said, Actually, we need tohave a follow-up conversation
with both of us, just you. Cometo our house in two days.
So she has been really buildingstory but also processing about

(07:46):
that. And this morning was thatsecond conversation and right
before, maybe like an hourbefore we got on the podcast,
she came home and we were in abig hug and unpacking it. That's
what's going on for us, man. I'mjust really proud of her,
basically.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
For being so assertive and genuine and head
on and not just people pleasingbecause it's the easier thing to
do.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, for being willing to face her fears, to
use them for her own growth, tocome into whether that's
understood or not yet, and itseems like it is, more
authentic, real conversation, orreal relationship through hard
conversation, and to push thebounds of her nervous system
availability for her liberationand for others. I just think

(08:32):
it's beautiful. And I justwatched this woman grow and grow
and grow, but this was a bigone.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
A lot of maturity. A lot of maturity.

Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah. So that's what's going on for me. What's
going on for you? Podcast guestswon't be able see you, which is
unfortunate, but it's a viberight now. You've got this
amazing armchair, thesebeautiful tortoiseshell frames,
this incredible chunky sweater.
It's sort of like, I don't know,super high end ski nouveau
fashion meets like Jedi Knight,which kind of fits. Just like

Speaker 2 (09:05):
it's good, man. It's good. Well, what's going on for
me physiologically? I'm just notat my best because of the cold.
I actually took a long hike thismorning and that made me feel
better.
But as far as my heart isconcerned, I've been having this
mission this year of savinghearts from going dark, or

(09:29):
getting hard one person at atime. And in so doing, I've
never felt so heart healthy interms of psychological,
emotional way. And so I feel sogood in terms of of appreciating

(09:52):
people and all life form andfeel like I'm doing really
important work by challengingpeople to, as you said earlier,
to not write those stories thatwill harden your heart. And
politically right now, I guesshalf of my caseload, you know,
are people that are disappointedabout the presidential election.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
And

Speaker 2 (10:14):
just making sure that they stay on top of making sure
that they don't get too dark anarrative going, get too self
righteous, too omniscient,knowing it all. That has been
the most important thing in mylife right now. And it feels so

(10:36):
good and it feels soappropriate.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
When you say harden your heart, what specifically do
you mean?

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Well, know, I'm a valuable person. But when I say
harden your heart, I mean, I'llspeak Nashville. If you write a
story filled with hate andspite, that story will haunt you
at night. It will take a life ofits own and it won't even need

(11:03):
you to participate in singingit. It will become an anthem.
And your adrenaline and yourcortisol and your nervous system
will narrow your view and justtake over. And you end up being

(11:24):
resentful and bitter andvengeful and missing out on
using your heart for love.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
So is it fair to interpret that? And maybe you
can kind of think about it interms of a client who would come
and see you that these stories,these heart hardening stories
that you're building are oneswhere there is some element of
blame or projection or othering?Are there other key constituent

(11:51):
parts or are those pretty muchit?

Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah, absolutely. Components of self righteousness
diminishing the other person.They're wrong and I'm right. The
more right you are, the moreright you get. And the more
right you get, the more rightyou are.
And the next thing you know, apeaceful protest becomes burning

(12:14):
down the courthouse.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah. If I think about my own journey, and you've
been in an observational frontrow seat for a lot of it
because, you know, we've knowneach other for like fifteen
years now, something like that.Crazy.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
2012 or 2013.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah, yeah, probably 2012. Cause I think there was a,
I think there was an electiongoing on when we met. Was, it
was pre election Cause we metover a question at the Aspen
Institute. And it was about Yes.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
It was the best question asked. And I was like,
who is that kid? Like, woah. Andthen you told me a year later
that Thomas Friedman, you had toask him in private that same
question.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yes. Because

Speaker 2 (12:59):
And he told you to ask it again.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yes. That's true.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
And so it was rehearsed. It was prepared. And
I was like, oh, it didn't breakmy heart though. Like, when I
found out that President Obama,when he started singing Amazing
Grace at that church in SouthCarolina, when he was speaking
and he just broke out in song.And his chief of staff, years

(13:26):
later, she was telling a storyabout that.
And she was saying that he saidhe was gonna sing. And she's
like, no, do not sing. We're notgonna do that. And he's like,
yeah, I'm gonna sing. And so Iwas like, oh, I thought the
spirit moved him.
I didn't know he had rehearsedthat. But

Speaker 1 (13:44):
anyway Well, it's funny you say that because I
think this is so important forthis moment for all folks who
have a desire to make ourcurrent situation better
regardless of where they comefrom. But it's funny, what I'm
hearing in that is because I hadsaid the question out loud
before, somehow it took some ofthe glitter off the experience

(14:04):
for you. I understand that.What's also true is I sat in the
audience, I listened to them, Ithought of the question. I then
had to get up the nerve to go toThomas Friedman, who at the time
was one of my top favoritewriters, was very nervous.
I shared it with him. He askedthat. I was flattered to be able
to do that. Now I have to do itin front of a room of what, I

(14:26):
don't know, 150, I'm guessing?Like highly selected
intellectual, Roddy, that's nota word, people.
And so I asked it and I probablysounded poised because I know
enough about myself now thateven when inside I'm nervous as
fuck, that externally it cancome off okay. But I was so

(14:46):
nervous asking the question thatI barely remembered the answer.
And I remember thinking like,Jesus, I could barely hear him
even responding because mynervous system was jacked.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well, I think you did just fine. It made us become
friends. Came I think I startedtalking to you. Yeah. So moved
and impressed by your verbalability, your Broca's area, your
expressive speech center is justpops off so well that I think

(15:16):
didn't they ask you one time tospeak?
Didn't you just stand upimpromptu and speak on Newt
Gingrich's behalf just like forfun?

Speaker 1 (15:27):
I did. And that is also a deeply interesting story
of personal failings andmaturation. There is if you're
listening and you go ontoYouTube, you can see I do a talk
about this whole experiencecalled Slay Your Dragon. So if
you search Slay Your DragonSkippy Mesero, it'll come up.
But the long and short is yes,in a previous time when I was in

(15:49):
this place of it's their fault,someone else is wrong, I've got
the answers, I'm right.
I decided to assert my opinionin a presidential caucus in Mar
State, but electoral process fora party that I had no intention
to vote for. And what I said wastrue, but was very disingenuous

(16:13):
for having left out the factthat I was not a member of that
party and didn't plan to votefor that person outside of the
primary in the general election.But what transpired was a very
unexpected sequence of eventswhere I got invited into sort of
the inner sanctum of that partyand learned the lesson of holy
shit, these are people too. Wecome from a different place. Had

(16:35):
I come from the place that theydid, I might have the opinions
and beliefs that they do.
And through I think some fairlyshameful behavior, it was one of
the most transformativeexperiences for me of growing
out of that I'm right, they'rewrong to there are different
perspectives on a problem andthis didn't happen immediately,

(17:00):
but down the road, Oh wow, wecan solve all problems better if
we get all of these opinions inthe room, value everyone as
simply a human being who's hadan experience, and then together
be able to have thosechallenging conversations like
Jamie did this morning aroundhow can we bring our unique
experiences, our uniqueperspectives together towards

(17:22):
collective problem solving thatimproves everybody. So yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
May there be more?

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah, so let's help people get there. There'll be
people listening who are feelingall those things, and it's
totally normal of I'm scared,I'm angry, someone else is
wrong, it's their fault, I knowthe answers. And that's okay.
We've all felt that at somepoint. I felt that many times.
I still feel it sometimes. Andso for folks who are in that

(17:51):
place, could you kind of help usunderstand like psychologically,
with the lens of your work,What's what's actually going on?
How do those thought processesserve us? How do they harm us?
Like, why why do we get intothese mental constructs?

Speaker 2 (18:06):
For many reasons. I'd like to use the couple's
example. When you have a ownerof a hardware store and a
pediatrician that are marriedand they have three kids. When
they are out in the world, thejuices that flow are get shit
done juices, you know, changethe world, narrow focus. I've

(18:30):
got a bow and arrow in my hand.
And so when that couple getshome, halftime is probably the
drive home because they've gotthings to do. You know, the game
starts again if you've got kids.And so you're still just revved
up on get shit done juice. Andyou've got spears and you're

(18:51):
trying to get different shitdone. Your mindset is fueled by,
you know, the juices that areflowing and you feel right.
And right leads to a fight. Andit's difficult for people to be
nice and polite when they are athome and the adrenaline and the

(19:14):
dopamine and such and such andthe nerve, epinephrine are all
flowing through your body to getthings done or through your
brain. That's just it can happenwith anything when you're
driving in traffic, where you'retrying to get to the ski lift,
you know, you've got a mission,you know what you want to do.

(19:35):
And if anybody gets in your way,you know Cherry. There's that's
right.
There's no kumbaya juice.There's no cuddling juice
flowing through your body atthat time. So people just have
things to do.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
Right.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
I love the parable, the good Samaritan. If you have
time to help someone in need,probably you're not on your way
to being in a car line to pickup your kids. We think people
should just slow down and bekind to strangers and the such.
But you have to be juiced up forthat. Yeah.

(20:11):
And also just I think that,like, there's a lot of parental
estrangement. Mhmm. And a lot ofpeople think it's for good
reason. And it's usually, in myexperience, the no contact is a

(20:32):
function of usually the the kidor the young adult. They're not
looking at themselves as BillClinton would say.
They got one finger pointed, butthey've got three other one
pointed back at them and thenthey're not examining how hard

(20:53):
it is. You know? Maybe maybeyour parents think you're a
piece of work too. You know? Andso if you're the innocent and
the victim, then it makes senseto be pissed off.
But usually, you know, peoplearen't the innocent and they're
not completely innocent andthey're not just the victim.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
I love this. I've never heard anyone say that, but
yeah, like if you're pointingyour finger literally at
somebody like do that right now,that could be such a pattern
interrupt reminder. Okay, I'm ina mode of blame. My fingers
pointed out. Oh shit.
Three of those fingers arepointed back at me. I can't

(21:34):
change what the other person'sdoing. I can change how I'm
showing up. Every single humaninteraction, there are two
people involved. We're alwaysparticipatory in some way.
I really love that. That'sgreat.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Mel Robbins would love just the way you put that.
Let them and let me look atmyself. You know? That's
awesome. Such a fun book for somany people.
She's just doing such a greatjob changing lives.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
What's the title of the book?

Speaker 2 (22:06):
The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
Ah, okay. I haven't read this yet. Jamie's been on
this on social media, and she'sbeen telling me about it
secondhand. Cool. We'll put itin the show notes for folks.
I'm going to flag parentalestrangement as maybe we'll come
back to that. I have thatexperience and you have your own
stories about your father, andthat might be instructive for

(22:29):
folks. But I want to come backto what you said about the Good
Samaritan. Because there'sactually a study on this, and
we'll try to find it for theshow notes, where the people in
the study are told, and I mayget some of these details wrong,
folks, but we'll get the broadstrokes right. And Jerome's
nodding his head, he knows whatI'm talking about, so you
correct me if I'm wrong.

(22:50):
But they tell the participantswho are actually in a seminary
or they're seminary students,they're in religious study, that
they're looking at this problemof the Good Samaritan, which is
true. But they don't tell themwhat they're actually testing.
So they take these folks from astudy that's actually on that
piece of literature of the GoodSamaritan, and then they have

(23:12):
them going back to some otherlocation, their primary church,
and they plant someone who's inneed of assistance along the
way. And they are measuring howoften and how they interact to
be the Good Samaritan. What theydon't tell the participants is
part of them are the controlgroup where they just say, Hey,
go back home, and they plantthis person.

(23:33):
The other, they tell themthere's something important
that's time limited that theyhave to get it back there for.
So they introduce that get upand go juice. What they find is
even for these people who havejust come from the Bible study
of the Good Samaritan, ifthere's something to be done,
the ability of them to stop andbe the Good Samaritan is

(23:54):
significantly reduced. Is thathow you remember it?

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Absolutely. And the cuddle juice is not flowing when
you've got shit to do. You know,your focus narrows when you are
intentional and you miss out ona lot of variables. And it's
just it's just impossible.Again, the mom that's got to
pick up another kid, she's notletting anybody in, in traffic.

(24:17):
She's not being generous. Youknow, she's got a kid to pick
up.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah. I got my kid.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Or when she gets home. I had the most fun last
year. It was like six in themorning. And was just like, Man,
women are the biggest

Speaker 1 (24:37):
liars. This is a Chris Rock bit.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
And I just started laughing like women are the
biggest liars. They are thebiggest liars. Because it's just
impossible to be as awesome asthey are And not be lying.
Because when you are Artemis,and you're a working woman, a

(25:00):
professional, and you're tryingto get shit done, and you've
got, you're the goddess of thehunt. And then you go home and
you've got to be goddess of thehearth.
You got to be Hera to your kids.And then your husband wants to
hook up and you gotta be Venus.And that's just all, that's just

(25:20):
different juices. And if you'redoing that all on the same day,
that just doesn't, you justcan't shift that quickly. So
when I say that, when I waslaughing at the same thing with
The Biggest Lives, it's like,they're going through the
motion.
They are showing up. They aredoing, they're in, it's
impossible to feel it, you know,on the same day. They're the

(25:43):
original AI.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
That's hilarious. There's a great Chris Rock bit
where he talks about that in oneof his recent standouts where
he's like, Women are the biggestliars. Men tell the biggest
lies. And it's very funny. Oh,really?
Oh, it's good. You should go seeit. We're not endorsing
everything that Chris says onthe show, but he is very funny
and very insightful. So go checkit out. All right, so I want to

(26:08):
come back to what we weretalking about, about heart
hardening and shift to heartopening.
And the way I want to get intothis more specifically to give
people approaches to do that isfirst I want to ask a couple of
rhetorical questions for theaudience. So I'm going to ask a
couple of questions, I'm goingto leave a couple of seconds,
And in that, if you'relistening, I'm going to ask you

(26:29):
to just allow whatever comesforward naturally to come up for
you. These are simple yes orno's. Don't think about it.
Don't analyze it.
There's no right or wrong. Justsee what's true for you. Okay?
So the first question is, Do Iwish our politics were more
functional? Do I wish we livedin a less partisan time?

(26:49):
Do I seek to have moreconstructive relationships with
the people that I work with? Thereason I ask that is reliably in
polling, over 80% of people sayyes to those. Those are people
that are highly partisan, peoplethat are not even voting, right?
Like we tend to want to live ina place that is not full of
conflict, vitriol, anger,judgment, and to have the

(27:13):
systems and structures in placeto create better outcomes for
ourselves and our children,right? Those are pretty close to
universal values.
And yet we are all walkingaround in our own meat suit. We
all have our own get up and gochemicals, as Jerome is saying.
We have all these systems thatcan often fight our ability to
show up in such a way where wecan work across difference and

(27:36):
move from heart hardening toheart opening. The types of
behaviours, the neurochemicalsthat allow us to see, work,
respect, and be effective acrossdifferences. So Jerome, assuming
that you are human like us, andyou've had moments of heart

(27:58):
hardening thoughts, behaviors,neurochemicals.
If you haven't, that's okay. Youcan tell us how you do that. But
how do you come back into theplace of heart opening
behaviors, perspectives,mindsets, etc?

Speaker 2 (28:15):
You know, you ask those questions. And I think the
last one was, do you seek toknow the people around you more?
I said no, because that's justautomatic. It's just the way I
roll.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
You already do it.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
I don't seek it. I that's part of who I am. And
when you said, like, do you wishpolitics were less partisan? And
I don't wish for that which isnot currently available. But I
do want things to be asfunctional as possible.

(28:49):
That's why I said no to I'm notspending any time wishing that
because that's just not what'savailable right now.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah. What I'm hearing in that is actually I
recognize the state of play assuboptimal, but I'm not going to
live in a fantasy of what couldbe and I'm not going to point
the one finger of blame sayingyou're the reason it's that way
without considering the threefingers. And the three fingers
are, Do I want to do anythingabout it? I don't have to. But

(29:20):
if I do, what can I do?
So maybe let's approach it fromthe three finger side of those
questions. If you wanted to dosomething, or if someone wanted
to do something about it, whatmight they do?

Speaker 2 (29:31):
Whatever they could do and enjoy doing. Showing up
and doing their part and doingit well informed. And, I mean,
you know, people have theirdifferent ways of doing things.
I think that it's moreconstructive to decide I'm gonna
run a better race. You know, I'mgonna run a different type of

(29:54):
race.
I might even decide that, youknow, I'm gonna do what it takes
to win. The naivete of thinkingthat you can win with the
current state of the populationthat you can win by being nice.
That doesn't work right now.Know, people need to be stirred

(30:18):
and to get their attention. Youreally have to say something.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Is it true that nice and saying nothing are
synonymous? I guess what do youmean by nice?

Speaker 2 (30:27):
You have to grab their attention. Sure. And it
has to be sticky and thatenergizes them.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
One of my favorite scenes last year was on the
December 26 visiting with mydad. He had a walker and a four
pronged cane because he brokehis hip last year. And all these
medicine bottles and thisurinal, this bottle that piss
in, you know, for emergencies.And the news was blaring. And

(30:59):
every once in a while, he jumpup and spike because of whatever
news story was on.
And he's like, see there? Listento that. You know? It was just
giving him so much meaning andlife, and it was fun to watch.
But I think that that's thestate of so many people's lives.

(31:20):
We're all somewhat in anindolent state and need, you
know, some poking to get somemovement.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
I would agree with that. I think that we are
metaphorically, effectively eachin a small room, small closed
room, no doors or windows. Andthere are strobe lights and
speakers blaring from everycorner. That's modern life.
There's so much competing forour attention all the time.

(31:52):
And so we have consistently,whether it's an advertiser or
your parents or your teacher, orthe movie that you watch, they
get more and more violent, Theyget more and more funny. They
get more and more extreme toseek our attention in that
increasingly loud So I thinkthere's no question about that.

(32:14):
Where I get concerned is thatpeople see a few folks who are
breaking through that noiseenvelope, and they happen to be
angry, mean people who aresaying that everyone else is
wrong and bad. But that doesn'tmean that those are the only
things that can break through. Ithink if we look back

(32:36):
historically, the people thathave come through the sands of
history as our greatest heroes,that are respected really across
the aisle, were people whobrought us together and preached
love and connection, but not ina meek or small way.
We just had MLK Day not too longago, it might be a while now

(32:58):
when you're listening to it, butthe fierceness of love, the
conviction and courage of comingtogether. I think that there is,
and I've seen that there isspace to both grab attention
while not being mean, blameoriented and destructive, but by
bringing people together. Do youthink that's possible?

Speaker 2 (33:19):
I'd like to think that it's possible. Of course,
it works for a lot of people anda lot of people it doesn't. It
doesn't seem to stick as well.You know, when you have
statesmen like Mitt Romney, youknow, ten years ago, he could
bring people out. Today, that'snot how people roll.
People, you know, it's moresocially acceptable to be pissed

(33:41):
for sport, right for sport, evenif you know what you're talking
about. For the people that hikeand break bread with other folk
and work at being self aware andinundated with kind smelling
strangers. Yeah. It probablyworks for them.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Alright. I'm gonna tell, like, a little anecdotal
story, and then I'm gonna circleback to the initial question and
put more of a clinical lens onit. Because I know from our
conversations over the years,you actually have a lot of tools
and practices that people coulduse to kind of come back into
this way of thinking. But I wantto give the real world example
for folks listening. So I justfinished effectively a three day

(34:26):
goal setting retreat for a majorcity.
Okay? So I'm going in, and thatcity manager is reaching out to
me saying, Hey, we just had themost contentious election in at
least since I've been in thiscommunity. It got nasty. And I'm
really concerned that in what issupposed to be a nonpartisan

(34:49):
municipal district, thisinfighting from the top is going
to come in and is going to makeus dysfunctional. So there's an
awareness that if we allow thisus versus that mentality to come
in, what's actually going tohappen is everyone lose, it
harms our citizens and ouroutcomes.
And so we go into this retreatand I spend about seventy five

(35:11):
minutes with each councilmember, the mayor, city manager
and ACM before the two day inperson retreat as a group. And
we are digging into a lot ofstuff. What is their vision for
the community? How do they wantto show up as a leader to do
that? What are their greatestfears?
What are their known blocks orinternal patterns? How might
they self sabotage on the way?So we're building rapport, but

(35:34):
we're also learning where theirlimiting beliefs are, where
their fears are. By the time weget to the in person retreat
where everyone's there,including city staff, so there's
30 ish folks in the room, We doa visioning exercise. We come
back to our individual visions.
People's eyes are closed. Andwe're asking people to raise

(35:54):
their hand if you're visionincluded. And it might be
something like a thrivingdowntown with businesses that
serve the population. And thenthey open their eyes and they
go, Oh, seventy five to onehundred percent of people in
this room have that. Okay, closeyour eyes again.
Does your vision include acouncil that listens to its
community and really strives formore effective communication for

(36:16):
everyone and transparency ingovernment. Open your eyes. 100%
of people have their hands up,right? And so we kind of go
through this and people come torealize, Oh, we have a lot of
shared overlap. And then we dropin with, Okay, well, can anyone
guess what your greatest fearwas in your one to one?
What was the fear that came upmore than anything else? It was
partisanship. Almost everysingle member's primary fear was

(36:39):
partisanship. I won't belistened to or heard because
they've already made theirdecision. I will be othered in
some way or not included ingovernment.
We will be, you know, on thereceiving end of anger, vitriol,
lies, etc. There's a lot of fearthere. But what we come to
realize is that that fear is aprojection through the lens of
the news media and maybepersonal experience, but is not

(37:03):
actually a reflection of theactual human beings in the room.
The actual human beings in theroom have a ton of overlap on
what they want to do. And whatwe recognize is that when we are
in fear of the other in fear ofpartisanship, that fear
naturally without trainingcauses us to close off, to build
walls, to other to effectivelyengage in partisan behaviours.

(37:27):
And in doing so, we confirm thefear on the other side that gets
reflected back, it amplifiesover time. And we end up in a
reality that confirms our worstfear because we personally
engaged in the behaviors tocultivate that outcome that
nobody wanted. And when webecome aware of that reality,

(37:47):
and we can find the connectivetissue, The opportunity is to
notice that fear when it comesup, and it will. To own that
that's a story in my head, it'snot real. And to interject
before embodying the behaviorsof partisanship with opening
behaviors, with curiosity, withquestioning, with confirming or

(38:12):
denying those beliefs, withseeking to work across and with
just saying, Hey, I've got thisfear coming up.
Is this founded? Is this true?And the retreat kind of goes on
from there. But that's sort oflike, you know, early morning
day two. And what we found bythe end when we get into goal
setting is that this councilthat had members of both parties

(38:36):
who had been in that partyinfrastructure leadership for,
in some cases, twenty-thirtyyears, who use words to describe
themselves as conservative,liberal, progressive The
correlation between those selfimposed labels and the things
they want to do in theircommunity relative to one
another is almost zero.

(38:58):
Almost zero. And they came outwith very clear consensus on how
to work together and a toolkitof how to use their differences
towards those shared problemsand challenges. So I know in
concrete terms it's possible.What I want to ask you is, you
know, you're not leadingretreats, right? You're seeing

(39:19):
clients one to one.
But like, imagine that there's acounselor, not a real person,
we're making this up, but inyour hometown of Nashville, who
comes to you after a roughelection cycle. And they lay
down on your couch. I don't knowif you lay down outside of
cartoons on the couch in theoffice, but that's my vision.
They lay down on the couch andthey say, Jerome, I'm really

(39:41):
scared. I'm really scared.
I'm scared the community isrunning away from what I
believe. I'm scared that I'mlosing my influence. I'm scared
no one's going to listen to me.And I'm scared that me and my
kids are going to get targeted.And I'm noticing that I'm
falling into these behaviours ofjust saying it's someone else's
fault and problem and I'mworried that I'm inflaming the

(40:03):
situation rather than helpingit.
I don't need you as my therapistto give me political strategy,
but like what do I do as a humanwith these feelings, with these
fears, so that I can be asconstructive of a member of my
community leadership aspossible? And what I want to
give you permission to do hereis rather than being the

(40:24):
therapist that's going to guidethem to their own answers, draw
from your history of years andyears of psychotherapy and from
your own personal experience,what are the one or two or 20
practices that somebody might dothat could be helpful.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Anybody that comes in does that is already there. I
had a woman say this week, Iknow I'm not perfect, but I'm
sure it's shit self aware.That's the consequence of
therapy or life coaching forher. And any politician that
comes in lies on the couch withthose concerns, they've already
done their work. They are selfaware and they're watching

(41:05):
themselves and knowing wherethey're going.
They're paying attention.They've got a narrative that
counters the narrative that theyspeak outside of the office.
Just as long as a person hasconversations or journaling or
to such, where they are payingattention to or watching or

(41:28):
observing themselves, thenthey're likely be fine. And also
just if you're not gettingenough sleep, you're not going
to be alright. If you'redisconnected from your partner
and family, I mean, if you'renot socializing, I think we've
talked about this before thefive S's, sleep, and that

(41:49):
scheduled sunlight, and sweatingto complete the stress cycle,
and self compassion, and selftalk, talking to themselves in a
way that lends itself to notgetting too right, you know, not
being too right.

(42:09):
And also appreciating that, hey,that's a great mindset and a
great temperament. And you'realready just fine if you're
taking care of yourself andsmart enough to appreciate that,
like, to be effective, you'vegot to be elected. And people do

(42:29):
what they need to do to getelected, then they can get to
the business of being effective.But being naive and pretending
that you can get elected withKumbaya and holding hands in
this climate, you never get tobe effective because you're not
gonna get elected. But I dothink that, like, you know,

(42:54):
that's how one ought to live.
I think that that's the personthat can collaborate. And I love
the temperament of Mitt Romneyand Cory Booker. They appear to
be lovely people, driven andlovely and kind hearted, open
hearted, but it's both of themstruggle to get buy in with the

(43:19):
current climate.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
Yeah. And now a quick break from our sponsors and
we'll be right back to the show.This episode of the Healing Our
Politics podcast is brought toyou by platinum level donor Moon
Song Fund. This content wouldnot be possible without donors
just like you. If you want tosee more of this content,

(43:43):
helping more leaders healthemselves, their communities,
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The Healing Our Politics podcastis brought to you by the Elected
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(44:07):
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(44:30):
This is for you.
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and starting today. You had apractice, I'm gonna guess a year

(46:21):
and a half ago, maybe it waslonger of having a certain
number of pebbles in yourpocket. Do you remember this
one?

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Oh, yeah. It was like so I wouldn't be ghetto in
traffic. Right. I put thosepebbles in my pocket to be
mindful of, like, not being tooself righteous in traffic. I had
a bit of road self righteousnessgoing, and it just you can't
help it if your adrenaline'sflowing because you got shit to

(46:51):
do and you're trying to getsomewhere.
You know?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Yeah. So the practice was I think it was five pebbles
in the pocket. Maybe it wasthree. Do you remember? It's
five, I think.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
It was five. They're still on the arm of my chair
that I sit in every There arefive black pebbles that I still
play with.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
That's awesome. So there's a recognition from you
that sometimes you human andengage in a behaviour that's not
helpful to you or others whichis getting ghetto, as you said
in the car, road rage maybe, andyou want to shift that
behaviour.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
I said road self righteousness.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
Road self righteousness.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Rage is a little old.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Okay, road self righteousness. But you want to
shift that behaviour. It's hardto shift behaviours. So you're
doing a couple of things. You'reputting five stones in your
pocket.
You're effectively setting alimit per day on how often you
get to engage in that behaviour.So you're normalising that the
behaviour is part of life, it'spart of the thing. It's not
going to disappear throughforcing it down or resisting it

(47:51):
because what we resist persists.But when the behaviour comes up,
now you have an anchor to noticethat you're bringing mindfulness
to it. You're then shifting thatrock from one pocket to the
other.
So you're reducing the number oftotal instance per day that you
have left, again, kind oflayering in that mindfulness and

(48:12):
attention to it. As you're doingthat, you're providing a break
for a cognitive reset to make adifferent choice if you want to.
And then you're repeating thatover and over again without
judgment, but awareness andcorrection, awareness and
correction. And so, yeah, thisis beautiful, right? Beautiful,
beautiful practice.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Well said. And paying attention to the fact that
really the reset was just havingthe pebbles. My energy went
toward trying to keep mypebbles, not trying to keep
somebody from pulling in frontof me or me pulling in front of
somebody else. Yes. I just Istill was adrenaline charged,

(48:55):
but instead of using it to sparwith another driver, I used it
to keep my pebbles, you know.
I still I put the focus inanother place.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Yes. You hijacked what you know about your own
reward system. You're anachiever. You like to win and
achieve, as many of us do. Soinstead of being in competition
with the other person in theother car as the definition of
winning, you hijack your nervoussystem with a new technique that
put you in competition withyourself.

(49:27):
Can I win my highest and bestself retaining my pebbles as
evidence and chits of winningand then giving yourself a
reward of something healthy inthe run? Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
Yes, it was fun. That was so much fun and it really
helped. Unless I'm talking onthe phone with somebody that I
love, then I can't do it. Imean, I get so protective. And
whoever it is that's on thephone, it's as if they're in the
car with me, it's gonna violatetheir safety.

(49:59):
So I've noticed that I still popoff if I'm talking to, like, my
friend Laura.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
You know, think that's about taking care of I
bought a Tundra and it is sohuge, so much trunk, and I have
to be so attentive. And so nowyou need pebbles. I just gotta
pay attention to where all thistrunk is being placed and how I
maneuver it.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Well, when we first met, the car you had would
probably fit in the bed of thatTundra.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Right. Right. But, you know, I think part of living
well is making your lifedifficult, making hard the
easier thing for you to do.Doing the harder thing is one of
the things that I took fromRobert Sapolsky back twenty
years ago when he wrote hisbook, Why Zebras Don't Get

(50:49):
Ulcers, being constructivelyengaged because it's the
idleness that makes you wanna beaddict to the other chip. And so
if you're busy, constructivelyengaged, you're less likely to
be doing something destructive.
As we said earlier, we live in aworld where there's so much ease

(51:11):
and we're designed to opt forease, but we're not designed to
thrive and ease. And that's whyease leads to disease. And if
you're in a room and on yourscreens all day, you need
something pretty over the top topull you back into your set

(51:33):
emotional homeostasis. Becausewhen you're starting to decline,
you know, and starting to feellike death, you got to
overcorrect with something topull people out of their
doldrums. I make sure that Idon't get into too many doldrums
because I got to wash my ownkale, drive this big ass truck,

(51:57):
do my own chopping.
You know? I just think if you ifyou wanna get life, do the
harder thing. I've got a friendright now that's trying to do me
a painting of Sisyphus, rollingthe heel, the rock up the heel.
I want it to be the first thingthat I see when I walk in

(52:18):
because being constructivelyengaged, effort, windedness,
it's one of my favoriteemotions. I love to feel winded.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
First, someone who's not familiar with Sisyphus,
obviously, the image itselftells the story, but can you
just explain that a little bitmore?

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Dude's rolling the rock up the hill and it rolls
back down the hill. You know,every time it rolls to the
bottom of the hill, then he hasto roll it back to the top of
the hill. With like heelrepeats, rinse and repeat. Yeah.
But still because the rewardcircuitry is on the inside,
you're activating the reward ofgetting there.

(52:56):
Even if it's the same thing overand over again. It's like you
ski the same slopes, but yourreward circuitry is on the
inside. So you still get thisthis high every time.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Yeah. So for someone who is in a already challenging,
potentially very stressful rolewho might say, Hey, I've already
got enough challenge going on.What would you recommend that
they do to grow expand theirnervous system so that ease
doesn't lead to dis ease in thisage of convenience?

Speaker 2 (53:29):
And for sure, they've got to exercise, you know, if
nothing else, exercise and cookfrom scratch. And if you can't
cook from scratch, do those mealthings, you know, they send it
in a box. And I think it takeslike twenty minutes for people
to cook. Sure. It's still, it'ssomething to look forward to.

(53:53):
It's like anticipating this easymeal prep and it feels like they
really are involved in doingsomething. And those are some of
the easier things to do. Alsojust like making sure that you
don't buy into like the thought.There's a new book out about
winter, helping people towinterize better and and get out

(54:15):
of their mindset of wintersucks. I hate winter.
We're so busy. We're so busy.It's like, no, you're not. You
know? Just like, don't don't dothat.
You know? One of the mostdisappointing things that I talk

(54:36):
about all the time is being aphysician is just a really
wonderful gig. You are alwaysconstructively engaged in
helping people, and they lookforward to seeing you, and you
get to see them and, you know,and you get to be smart and
challenged, and you don't haveto lie and falsify. You know,

(54:58):
it's just a good gig, man. And Ithink a lot of physicians bit
and moan about their gig becausethat's what people do.
And they diminish the quality ofthat experience. And then their
kids are listening to them. Andthen they say, I don't want to
be a physician. My parents talkshit about it. But really in the

(55:20):
break room, they love beingphysicians.
It's so titillating and smart.Interesting.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Yes. Somewhere along the way, they learn the lesson
that if they complain or bitch,that they will get attention in
some way, perhaps.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Probably. And, you know, it's socially acceptable.
We bitch ourselves into thinkingthat our lives suck. That we're
so busy that we don't have time.And people are just saying shit.
Look at your data and see lookat the data and see how much
time you spent on Pinterest orsome of the other things and and

(55:58):
get used to it. Like, once youstart cooking for your kids, it
becomes this thing that you getto do. You know, you your body
doesn't it just you just makeroom for it. But I'm 60, and
that's what moms did when I wasgrowing up. You know, even if
they worked, they still madethese meals that people call

(56:23):
Sunday dinners now, but they didit like on a Tuesday night.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Yeah. And what I hear in that again is kind of moving
from this place of victimhood ordisempowerment into empowerment
and leadership. Right? We'regoing from like from martyr to
leader. It can be easy to getcheap attention by saying, Oh,
woe is But in doing so, you'remaking it about you, when in

(56:48):
fact your job is incrediblyimportant.
You are helping people everyday. And if you can shift out of
the victim about me and make itabout the role and how do I
invest my time in being the bestpossible physician I am, not
only will you be better for yourclients, but ironically, you're
going to feel way better aswell. And then you start a
virtuous feedback loop. And nowyou are inspiring your kid.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
That's right. You know, David Brooks' best friend
died last year. He wrote thisbeautiful article about it and
how the mental health systemfailed his friend. And, you
know, he had depression and hestopped believing in his life
and his worth and the such andthe such. And I was just like,

(57:33):
man, that's not the mentalhealth system.
That's, that's just badthinking. A lot of it is that we
are designed to buy into ourthought processes. And you say
that shit enough. You'll, talkyourself right into a suicide.
You'll talk yourself right intothinking your, you know, your

(57:55):
career sucks, that your kidsdon't love you.
We believe what we think. And wespeak it into existence.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Yeah. Our external reality is often a reflection of
our internal state and not theother way around. And we have
control of our internal stateand thus we can affect those
externals.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
That's right. Whenever you see traffic, you
should be excited about itbecause it means that legal
tender is being exchanged. Andif there's no traffic in certain
parts of town, you know, we'rein trouble.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
Well, it reminds me of all the conversations I would
have at the council table wherewe had traffic and people would
come in and they would, youknow, would point fingers, they
would blame, they would angryand irate. How are we not
solving the traffic problem? Andone of the questions that I
would ask is how did you gethere today? I drove. Did you
drive with anyone else?

(58:55):
No, I drove by myself. What kindof car do you have? Large pickup
truck? Where might you becontributing to that traffic?

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Yeah. Well, we're not gonna talk about that. It's with
all of a sudden.

Speaker 1 (59:07):
Didn't talk about Bruno.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Bitch about the traffic might be, you know, what
they think that they're supposedto be bitching about, to bitch
about the weather.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
But if we could instead of bitching at each
other, roll up our sleevestogether, that's how we actually
alleviate or at least have thepotential to alleviate the
traffic or just the negativeexperience of the traffic, like
you said.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
And there are some wonderful people that are
forward thinking that are doingthings. In the South, traffic is
a you know, there's so manysuburbs. If you're coming to
town, you know, it's justharder. If you got kids, you
gotta have a car. You know?
It's just know, you can't cyclewith kids. And well, I mean,

(59:54):
you're in Amsterdam, but this isnot, you know, if you if you
live forty five minutes awayfrom the city center and and
they've gotta go to soccer andballet after school, you know,
we're gonna have smaller carsthough. That's coming down the
pipe.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
We are?

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Yeah. It's happening. I know. But not my Tundra.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Spoiler alert. Back to the SLK.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
I saw one. I saw one two days ago. Was walking with
Jamie, a little yellow one justlike you had. And I had the
thought of like, am I supposedto smuggle bourbon into this
interview under the desk?

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Dude, I had a black one. Don't let anybody think I
had a yellow one. Now you know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Oh, shit. Oh, I misremembered that. You know who
had a yellow one? It was mykindergarten teacher who I'm
obsessed with. You're right.
Yours is black. Alright.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Was black and fun. And my friend Steven sold it for
me in, twenty seconds because hedropped the top and he put his
labradoodle in the driver's seatand his paws on the steering
wheel and took a picture. Sojust like that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
That's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
That's super

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
funny. Well, brother, I want to leave people with some
perspective on how to find theright support for them. But
before we get to that on the wayout, is there anything that's
just really on your heart, onyour mind that you really want
to talk about or share with theaudience?

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
I want people to take care of their hearts. I want
people and I mean that in apsychological way. I want them
to be real attentive to anythingthat starts to harden their
hearts and make them bitter andself righteous and and dark and
so on. That can just even befrom being pissed at your kid

(01:01:49):
for deciding to be an artistinstead of a finance bro.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Roll it back. Don't be so right. Don't think you're
omniscient. You

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
know? Yeah. And I'll put in this plug for you. We'll
throw this in the show notes,Jerome. But Jerome has truly
been one of the most importantpeople in my life.
A few people I talked to out ofstate on as regular basis over
the last, I guess twelve yearsthan Jerome. And he's so full of
wisdom, he lives everything hedoes. And it's just beautiful to

(01:02:22):
watch. And although there aremany things that he has to share
we haven't gotten to today,maybe there'll be around too. He
does a TEDx talk called How aDinner Party Can Save Your Life.
Am I getting the title correct?

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
Yeah. And it's like, it's just so beautiful. It's
something that maybe I haveoverlooked as simple, but truly
the elements that are at adinner party from the food, the
nutrition, the socialsustenance, the support network,

(01:02:55):
the mentorship. There's just somany constituent elements that
we take for granted and that weas you said, we default to
convenience rather thanconnection. And so I just it's a
resource you should totallycheck out.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
And the preplan, you know, being so excited about
what you're gonna get to cookand looking forward to it and
telling everybody and talking toyour grocer about it and even
getting the show picturesafterwards. It's a wonderful way
to live Yeah. Welcoming peopleinto your home and hosting them

(01:03:29):
and sharing food. This year, Isaid I'm gonna have 60 different
faces in my house for dinnerover the course of the sixtieth
year of my life. And I think I'mat 29 or 30.
And in five months, I'm jammingthat. And one thing I did that I

(01:03:54):
started putting time limits, youknow, it's like, hey, Skippy,
come over for dinner between sixand 07:15 on Monday night. So
people can, you know, in acasual dinner, you know, know
that there's an end and theydon't have to think that they

(01:04:15):
gotta stay till 09:00. It's justdinner, man, at the kitchen
table. I realized that I was notsabering the gathering.
I was more was having thegathering. I was paying
attention to the clock. Yes. So,you know, make sure you freaking
enjoy it and don't get sohijacked getting it right and

(01:04:38):
putting things on the table soprecisely in the such as chill,
safer and enjoy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Yeah. You are a big part of our inspiration to start
doing weekly dinners two yearsago, Shabbat dinners, not in a
super religious way, but two toeight people home cooked meal,
no technology allowed. And theconversation had to be one
conversations and a sideconversations. That was it. And
whatever else happened happened.

(01:05:05):
And we've kind of fallen off thewagon when we moved and we're
out of town for a bit, butplanning to resurrect those
because they're really justthey're beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
I had a family this weekend. It was I think it was
so much fun because they had thethe the mom, my good friend has
20. Her her daughter and son are23, four, whatever. And just
their laughter, they were justso fun.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
You

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
know? It's like, I felt like a member of the tribe
for sure. You know? I mademyself a member of the tribe.
Don't understand.
But no. I told somebody that Icall I that did I tell you this?
That you're a Gravix club.You're the only member of my

(01:05:51):
Gravix club. And I think What's

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
gravics?

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
That that's like a it's like locks, but it's like
it's different. It it might haveDon't mess with that. I don't
know about You've never heard ofit?

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
No. I've never heard of it. I liked locks club. That
was perfect. I tell everyonethat you're part of the locks
club and they laugh.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Yeah. I put you in a club of your own. Now look it
up. It's like a different kindof locks. It's like, because
you've added so much toyourself.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
I see.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
I thought I wrote you and told you that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:21):
If you did, I don't remember it. But I love locks
club. Think that's awesome.Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
So enjoying it. Make sure you enjoy it. And don't let
them do any of the dishes. Saveit for yourself so you can be
constructively engaged when theyleave.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
Totally.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
That's something that makes me excited when I think
about it. This kid that I saw ata Christmas show, and he was
sitting next to my friend. He'sabout six years old. He's
making, moving, squeaking thechair a lot and everything. But
at one point he looked over atmy friend and I could see out of

(01:06:59):
the corner of my eye in the darkand he like looked at her and he
like put his hand up to holdhands while they watch together.
And I thought like, man, youknow, this kid is welcoming
love. And it's been a theme forme this year. Was like, I'm
going to welcome love, make surethat I encourage people to

(01:07:20):
welcome love. And of course,offer it in return. My new
favorite thing is white girl daydrinking.
Man, that shit is so much fun.It's like, you know, they call
it white girl wasted here. I'mjust getting white girl.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
They call it Opry here. Opry ski.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. That's
right. And the person that toldme that they call it Opry there
is the one of the ones that tookme white girl day drinking. It
was a birthday gift.
And then they took me back totheir house and these girls are

(01:08:02):
like cooking dinner for me andtalking shit. And they're still
drinking this Abilene, CameronDiaz's wine. And they're
drinking that because it's nosugar, you know, and you won't
have a hangover. It's like it'ssort of like a girl told me that
Prosecco is really not evenalcohol. It's mostly just water
and bubbles, so you can have asmuch of that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Sounds like a thing you'd be saying after you
started, like, drinking.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Yeah, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
That sounds a bit So funny.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
But they fried chicken. I don't know why they
chose the fried chicken. Soundsgood. And and they dusted it in
cassava root. They sprayedavocado oil on it and then they
put it in the skillet.
And then they turned it over andsprayed a little more, but it
was so cute because they thoughtthat that was fried chicken and

(01:08:52):
like, you know, there's no potof grease, you know, nobody got
a cigarette hanging at the sideof their mouth, you know? But
anyway, white girl day drinking,man, it's so much fun. That was
fun.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Right. So I want to leave people with just a little
bit of guidance. People aregoing come at this from all
different places. There's goingto be folks who are in that
state of anger and fear. There'sgoing to be folks who are just
overwhelmed, stressed, have noidea why or what it is.
There's going to be folks whoare those things and have a

(01:09:26):
story of like, This is justnormal. I need to grin and bear
it. And then there will bepeople who have some self
awareness of what they need toshift in their behavior or their
experience. There's not a rightor wrong, right? There's any
number of ways to get support,whether it's a therapist,
whether it's a transformationalcoach, a personal development

(01:09:47):
coach, a men's group like I'mpart of just a book to read but
I want to just kind of like playaround with some of the
different stuff people mightfind so that people kind of know
where they might check out whatmight serve them at this moment.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Man, it's like if you, anybody that doesn't have
acute apartment, they justdidn't go to Target. It is so
easy, you know, to like, no onehas an excuse for not having a
cute apartment Exactly where Ithought you were gonna There's
cute shit everywhere. Walmart,everybody, you know, so, and

(01:10:29):
it's the same for, you know,working on your head. I mean,
there's so much stuff out there.It's so accessible.
Everybody's walking aroundlistening to podcasts of like
past dudes on the trails thatare talking about self
confidence and anxiety and howthey're inversely related. And
I'm like, shit, man. Everybodyis so much more psychologically

(01:10:55):
minded and the such. And justremembering to kick it with
people that encourage you tochoose information sources that
will help expand your heart.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
Encourage and give you the skills to be a more
compassionate person and ahealthier person. It's at our
fingertips all day long. Yeah.You know, talking to a 16 year
old that can just go on and onabout Buddhism because they've
been watching videos all day.Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:28):
Yeah. So digital teachers, YouTube, podcasts like
this one and many others, socialcircle.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
Right. And it's like, don't get too bored such that
you have to overcompensate orand be Andrew Tate or Andrew
Tatish in your life. If you havean enriched life experience,
you're not trying to be adickhead. If you got people that
you're cool with and you'removing and you're not hopeless

(01:11:58):
about where you stand in theworld, you know, you won't
evolve into this crustycommudgeon. But you gotta not be
an invalid.
You cannot be a physicalinvalid. You can't be a social
invalid. You can't be a purposeinvalid. You gotta have a
meaningful way of spending yourtime. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
When would you recommend or when should people
think about getting someprofessional help of some kind,
whether that's a therapist, acoach, a consultant or a group
program, community of some kind.Do you have a sense of when
people should seek those type ofresources rather than just sort

(01:12:43):
of free on your own timeresources?

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
I might be biased and might be the way that the world
that I live in, but I just thinkthat that's such a big part of
the world right now. Peoplepeople just do it for sport now.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
Mhmm.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
It's so socially acceptable to talk to somebody,
you know, to most of mypractice, even though I get a
they get a diagnostic code so Ican bill. But, you know, most of
it is coaching and finding a wayto optimize life and finding the

(01:13:18):
ways that they are making a messof life and not even realizing
it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:23):
You said like sometimes you kind of work as a
coach in the therapist seat.What's the distinction between
those in your mind?

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
I don't see it really. Certainly the coaching
focus is usually notpathological focus. And of
course therapy focus can beaddressing pathology if you are
depressed. A lot of times peoplethat are coaching or just trying
to optimize their lifesituation.

Speaker 1 (01:13:51):
Yeah. And how do you determine fit? So, you know,
people will come across our workand, you know, like everything,
right? Whether it's a chef, arestaurant, a therapist, a
coach, Uber driver, you see avariety of experiences. I had

(01:14:11):
the most transformativeexperience.
I'm obsessed with my therapisttoo. It didn't work for me at
all. And I think often whilethere's certainly in any
profession a bell curve ofefficaciousness more often that
success or quote unquote setbackfailure is not a result of the

(01:14:32):
objective skill of thepractitioner, but the fit
between the practitioner and thepatient or the client. Would you
agree with that? And do you havea sense of how people can find
the right person for them?

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
You just keep going around and you talk to your
friends and the research reportsthat that's probably the most
important piece that you'retalking to the right person.
Yeah. That can even still gosell.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Yeah. Totally. Totally. And do you think like,
are you one of these folks thatthinks everyone needs therapy?

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
I think everyone needs, like you mentioned, you
guys had some elders in yourlife that, you know, had
contributed so much. Yeah. Andgave you something to aspire to.
I think people need elders tolook to and something meaningful
to do and nature and movementand touch. And that's therapy.

(01:15:29):
If you were raised in a familythat was more cynical for sport,
There are times in your lifethat that cynicism might get you
in trouble when you can't affordto be pessimistic because you're
already grieving andexperiencing loss. And so that

(01:15:51):
will just take even fartherdown. And next thing you know,
you got a full blown depressiveepisode. And so I think that's
when people need therapy. I hada patient recently apologize for
taking up time.
You know, he knew that I hadpeople that needed that spot

(01:16:15):
much more than he did. It'slike, I've got a really healthy
population of folk that I see.They're very interesting.
They're doing interestingthings. But they're at risk as
we all are for diminishing thequality of our life experience
with not telling the right storyabout it.

(01:16:37):
And I don't have any people thatneed it. But they certainly
benefit just by having someoneedit what they're saying.

Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
I'll reflect that back with some genuine
gratitude, is you talked about afamily history of cynicism. I
don't necessarily have that. ButI got in trouble with you
recently for a familycommunicative tradition called
sarcasm, also known as Jewishspeech. You reminded me, not in

(01:17:08):
a nice way, but in a kind way,that sarcasm is one of the four
horsemen of the relationalapocalypse, that it is a
behaviour of disconnection andseparation. And you called me
out on that and provided thespace for me to take ownership
and have awareness of that.

(01:17:29):
And since that conversation, Ihave had at least three times
where that's come up and thatconversation has reminded me to
shift my behavior. So

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
thank self awareness is all you needed, right?

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
Thank you. But I also had, as you said, an elder, a
social structure, a mentor whowas able to point that out from
a place of not criticism, butlove and wanting me to be
better. So I think you are anexample of how to find that
resource. So thank you for that.I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Well, I guess that proves what I'm saying, that
having an elder, you know? Yes.Yeah. You know, it's so funny.
You used to be this cat that Iremember your girlfriend at the
time wanted to meet me becausenobody told Skippy what to do.

(01:18:20):
And she's just like, Who thehell are you? You know, that
he's like talking to me, helistens to you, you know? And,
yeah, like, you had your arrowand bow and you were not, you
know, being kumbaya andlistening. And that was exactly

(01:18:42):
where you needed to be to dowhat you were trying to do.
Can't go gunzo if you're not,you know, driven and
intentional.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
Yeah. Thank you for that, brother. Thank you for
that reflection. Such a joy tohave you on the show. Than the
TEDx talk that I pointed peopleto earlier, where else can
people find you if they wannawork from you, work with you,
learn from you?
Where would people find you? Ifyou want them to? Maybe you
wanna stay mysterious.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):
A funny joke. I've recently hosted Nashville's TEDx
Twenty Twenty Four.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Yeah. Host man.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
And I realized that I don't know how to do this, you
know, keep yourself relevantstuff that, you know, you're
supposed to post that and blowthat up and let people know. And
I didn't do any of that. SoYeah. I I don't know how to self
promo like that. But if they'rehearing today that I think this

(01:19:46):
is somebody I could connectwith, you know, just go to my
website, jeromebird.com.
Send a shout out and we'll getback with them. Beautiful. I'd
rather you start one start withtaking long hikes with a good
friend. You won't need thisbrother. If you're taking long
hikes with good friends, talkingabout your problems, resolving

(01:20:10):
them.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
It's beautiful, man. So final question, same question
to everyone on the show, whichis the listeners of this podcast
are what Teddy Roosevelt wouldhave called the humans in the
arena. They're not passiveobservers. So if you could leave
them with just one thing, onethought, one practice, one idea,
one resource that would bestresource them to individually be

(01:20:35):
a vector for healing ourpolitics, what would it be? A
quote, a Jeromeism, a practice,a resource, a book, anything.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
My Uncle Archie, he's 92 years old. And I saw him at
Christmas. And he says stufflike, tell me how the Lord's
been taking care of you, Jerry.I was like, oh, that's so sweet.
You know?
And he said that he asked theLord to let him live to be a
hundred. And and that the Lordsaid, for what? You know? And he

(01:21:11):
was is like I was like, well,what did you tell him? And he
said, well, I didn't havenothing to say, but I still
think he's gonna let me live tobe a hundred.
You know? But I yeah. He is sucha cool cat. And every time he
stands up and says something forthe family, he always says, you

(01:21:34):
know, that Al Green song, Ifloving you is wrong, I don't
wanna be right. And I've beenthinking a lot lately, you know,
it's just like, I know thatloving you is not wrong and I
still don't want to be right.
And because right leads to fightway too often, you know. You

(01:22:00):
know, I just want people to bethe antithesis of that. The more
you know, the less youmotherfucking grow because
knowing and magic can't coexist.

Speaker 1 (01:22:13):
Knowing and magic can't coexist. Beautiful place
to end it brother. Thank you somuch for spending your very
valuable time with me, with ouraudience. I appreciate you. I
adore you.
And I look forward to monthafter month after month as as
you will have me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
Oh my gosh. You're my boy. I always look forward to
talking to you.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
Locks Club, bing the cream cheese. Let's go.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Told you. So you gotta check that graphics. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:43):
Alright, man. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
You so much. Be loved by peace.

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
Thank you so much for joining us today. If you want to
put what you've heard here todayinto practice, sign up for our
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(01:23:09):
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(01:23:33):
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(01:23:57):
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