October 14, 2025 • 51 mins
Ever feel like you’re doing everything for everyone—and slowly disappearing from your own life?
In this raw and relatable episode, host Michele Folan sits down with writer and coach Jen Butler, author of the forthcoming memoir Mom Rediscovered, to talk about the messy, brave work of finding yourself again—after kids, after moves, and after the coping habits that promised relief but delivered fog.
Jen opens up about her seven-year alcohol-free journey, her decisive breakup with diet culture, and the “soft rock bottom” that sparked it all. We unpack:
- How sobriety led to radical self-compassion
- The dopamine “easy buttons” women often turn to—and how to replace them
- What curating your social media inputs can do for your inner weather
- How strength training, protein, and bone health became part of her midlife healing
- The simple life-circle exercise to spot what’s not working
Therapy threads through Jen’s story as a practical, stigma-free tool for connecting the dots between motherhood, partnership, and identity. She shares how writing the hardest scenes—hangovers, shame, and all—became deeply healing.
If you’re curious about gray-area drinking, breaking up with diet culture, or building a midlife you actually want to live, this conversation will meet you where you are and gently nudge you forward.
👉 Preorder Mom Rediscovered, share this episode with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help more women find this space.
https://jenbutlerwrites.com/
https://www.instagram.com/jenbutlerwrites/
_________________________________________
1:1 health and nutrition coaching or Faster Way - Reach me anytime at mfolanfasterway@gmail.com
If you’re doing “all the right things” and still feel stuck, it may be time to look deeper. I’ve partnered with EllieMD, https://elliemd.com/michelefolan a trusted telehealth platform offering modern solutions for women in midlife—including micro-dosed GLP-1 peptide therapy—to support metabolic health and longevity.
✨ Sign up for my weekly newsletter:
👉 https://michelefolanfasterway.myflodesk.com/i6i44jw4fq
🎤 In addition to coaching, I speak to women’s groups, moderate health panel discussions, and bring experts together for real, evidence-based conversations about midlife health. Let's connect for your next event!
OsteoCollective osteoporosis resources and community link: https://app.osteocollective.com/invitation?code=BE98G9
Transcripts are created with AI and may not be perfectly accurate.
Disclaimer: This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services. It is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your qualified healthcare provider with any questions regarding a medical condition.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michele Folan (00:00):
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I'm your host, Michele Folan,and this is Asking for a Friend.
Today's guest is someone you'regoing to love hearing from
(01:10):
again.
My friend, writer, and truthteller, Jen Butler.
If you've been with me for awhile, you might remember Jen's
first visit to the podcast whereshe opened up about her
decision to go alcohol free andhow it reshaped her life.
That conversation struck achord with so many of you.
Well, Jen is back, and she'sgot a new book coming out this
(01:33):
October called Mom Rediscovered.
It's raw, it's real, and it'sall about peeling back the
layers of motherhood to find thewoman underneath, the one who
may have been lost somewherebetween diaper changes, school
drop-offs, soccer practice, andthat glass of wine at the end of
the day.
Jen's voice is refreshinglyhonest, sometimes funny, and
(01:54):
always deeply relatable.
We're going to talk about herbook, her alcohol-free journey,
and what it really means torediscover yourself as a mom in
the messy middle of life.
And let's be real, Jen and Ialways have a great time
together.
So you're in for a lively,heartfelt, and maybe even a
little sassy conversation.
So grab your coffee, yourwalking shoes, or whatever you
(02:18):
like to do while you listen,because this one is going to
make you think, laugh, and maybesee your own story a little
differently.
Jen Butler, welcome back.
Jen Butler (02:27):
Oh my gosh, Michele.
Thank you.
Thank you.
That introduction just has meall up in my feelings already.
Michele Folan (02:34):
Well, it's so fun to get together with you.
And you know what I love aboutdoing this podcast is that you
and I have never lost touch.
We've we've kind ofcommunicated over the years
since you did that firstpodcast.
And you know, I think maybe thebest place to start, just in
case listeners hadn't listenedto that first podcast, just to
(02:58):
share a little bit about yourbackground and what brought you
to writing.
Jen Butler (03:03):
Oh my gosh.
All right.
So, yes, because that was acouple of years ago now, I
think, that we did that podcast,right?
As I was navigating my lifecoaching journey and my
alcohol-free journey.
And when this book was stilljust a dream and a goal, but not
something physical that I cannow hold in my hands, which is
(03:23):
still very surreal.
So I have always wanted towrite a book.
I have journaled voraciouslysince I was in sixth grade.
It just was something that wasalways a goal.
I always wanted to hold my ownbook in my hands.
But I never knew what story Iwanted to tell.
I knew that I wanted to do somesort of nonfiction thing, kind
(03:43):
of stemming from my journaling,telling, sharing my story, but I
didn't know what my story was.
And it really wasn't until Istarted my alcohol-free journey,
and you and I talked about thatlong ago, but I can I can also
touch on that again.
It's now been over seven yearsthat I've been alcohol free.
And once I started thatjourney, and certainly once I
(04:05):
got to a point where I became anon-drinker, I thought, oh, now
I have something that I reallywant to share because I'm very
proud of this journey.
I will never say that I thinkeverybody needs to stop
drinking, but for me, thatjourney was about conquering
something that was holding meback and regaining control over
something that had control overme and really rediscovering
(04:28):
myself in that.
So when I first started writingthis book, it was really about
my alcohol-free journey.
And what I found was I kind ofstalled out and I felt really
weird about that for a while.
Like, why can't I finish thisproject?
I've wanted to write a bookforever.
And it's because I realizedthat that alcohol-free journey
(04:49):
is just a part of my story.
It's just one part of the storythat I wanted to tell.
And there's more to me thanthat.
And so that's what this wholebook is about, really is about
my motherhood journey.
And alcohol and quittingalcohol plays a huge role in
that.
But also I touch upon dietculture and breaking up with
(05:11):
diet culture.
That's been a huge part of myjourney.
I talk about losing myprofessional identity and how
hard that was for me.
I really touch on all theaspects of what motherhood has
been in my life.
And, you know, there's nofinish line.
I'm certainly not done with thework, but I had enough of an
arc to be able to share mystory.
And I just, it's so wonderfuland surreal that I'm coming on
(05:32):
and talking about it with youtoday.
Michele Folan (05:33):
When we first met, so you guys can't see Jen's
background, but she has aplethora of books.
You've always been a voraciousreader.
Yes.
And I remember you had hintedabout a book when when we first
spoke.
But you did you did startwriting because you you built
(05:57):
this really strong communitythrough your Substack, and which
was called Best Mom Never,which I I love.
How did that space shape yourvoice as a writer and a mom
advocate?
Jen Butler (06:10):
Yep.
So I I love this question.
I love my Substack.
I still post there regularly.
It's called Best Mom Never.
And that really, the Substackhas given me more confidence to
really just share myselfauthentically.
So I go on there and I just Italk about everything from, you
(06:31):
know, something that somethingvery small that happened in my
day to my entire book journey.
So my Substack really helped mefind and focus my voice, I
would say.
And it really, the commentsthat I started getting back from
readers and the community thatis formed around that made me
feel like, oh, you know what?
There are people who areresonating with my story.
(06:54):
There are people who say, oh,I'm not the only one that feels
that way.
And that really fueled mymotivation and desire to finish
my book and get it out into theworld.
Michele Folan (07:06):
All right.
How long then did it take youto write it?
Jen Butler (07:11):
So I will answer this question, and anyone who's
listening who aspires to write abook will feel very daunted by
my answer.
But I'm gonna be honest.
So this book from, you know,really when I first started
writing scenes that are in thefinished version has been
between five and seven years, Iwould say, which seems like
forever.
I know that, and it seems sodaunting.
(07:34):
But now that the book is done,it makes me realize I couldn't
have done it in any shorter of atime frame because I needed to
be working on it as I was goingthrough my alcohol-free journey.
And I needed to be writingthose scenes when I was feeling
those things and when I was init.
But I also needed to completemy arc.
(07:57):
So I needed to do more living.
I couldn't have ended this bookin 2019 when I stopped drinking
or 2018.
I needed to do more living andfigure out what my actual arc
was.
So that's why it took so long.
It also took a while because,as I said, I sort of stopped and
started.
I thought it was just gonna bea quit lit story, so just a
story about quitting drinking.
(08:18):
Then I realized I wanted it tobe more, but I didn't, I hadn't
done that living yet.
So I thought, well, maybe it'llbe like a self-help memoir
hybrid kind of thing.
And I got some very preciousand important advice from my
friend Zibi Owens, who is, well,she's everything.
She is a voracious reader,podcast host, publisher,
(08:40):
bookstore owner.
She's a she's a wonderful andinfluential figure in the book
space.
And she said to me, Don't tryto play the market.
Your story as it is is worthsharing right from your heart.
And when that was sort of likea permission slip.
I'm a rule follower, Michele.
You know this about me.
(09:00):
Yeah.
So it's almost like that advicewas the permission slip I
needed to let go of the idea oftrying to do something fancy,
self-help, memoir, hybrid, andreally just write my story.
And I try to do the same thingon my Substack and just be real
and offer something that I hopesomeone will see themselves in
(09:20):
and that will help them feellike they are not alone.
Michele Folan (09:23):
Do you feel like that kind of theme is part of
your own rediscovery journey?
Jen Butler (09:30):
100%.
Michele Folan (09:32):
Yeah.
Jen Butler (09:32):
Yep.
I became so isolated when I hadkids.
It really was, and it just sohappened, and I share this in
the book, that um my husband andI moved a lot when we have
kids, and when we first hadkids, because he changed jobs a
lot.
We also moved from a city tothe suburbs because we wanted
that experience once we had ourfirst our first baby.
(09:54):
And I, in the course of allthose moves, I lost touch with
friends, I lost community, and Ibecame increasingly isolated as
a new and exhausted mom.
So the really the antidote tothat was connection.
(10:14):
And that, and at first for me,it was, you know, virtual.
I had a lot of really importantvirtual connections in my life.
But then I also made somereally important friends in
certain stages of my life.
And but all those people,whether they were virtual
friends or real life friends,helped me realize oh, I'm not
the only one that's strugglinghere.
(10:35):
I'm not the only one that'sexhausted.
I'm not the only one that feelslike simply being a mom is not
fulfilling enough, but at thesame time has lost my
professional identity.
And that has all really helped.
And that's what I'm now tryingto do for other women by
offering my story.
Michele Folan (10:51):
We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come
back, I want to talk aboutmotherhood and its many layers.
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We are back.
Before we went on break, youstarted talking about these many
layers.
All the things that we are.
(11:54):
So caretaker, professional,worker sometimes, uh, partner,
friend.
But we're those things to a lotof people.
And we get lost maybe along theway because we stop being that
to ourselves.
Jen Butler (12:10):
Ugh.
Yes.
Yeah?
Yes.
And we fall to the bottom ofour own priority list.
Yeah.
Michele Folan (12:17):
When did you finally discover that that's
what had been happening withyou?
Ugh, that's it.
Jen Butler (12:23):
Makes me sad to think about it because I wish
I'd realized it so much sooner,you know, but I think probably
every mom can say the samething.
It really was when I first I'mgonna phrase this awkwardly, but
that's on purpose.
When I first started stoppingdrinking.
Okay.
(12:43):
I know that sounds weird, but Ium, and and I know we've we've
talked about my alcohol-freejourney before, but for those
who don't know, so I was what Icall a gray area drinker.
And what that means is that Iwas stuck in the space between
take it or leave it drinking,totally uncomplicated
relationship with alcohol, and afull-blown capital P problem.
(13:05):
I was in this murky fog in themiddle where I had a really hard
time going for more than one ortwo days without drinking.
And once I started drinking, Ihad a really hard time stopping
at one or two drinks and nothaving more.
So I finally kind of reached mywhat I call my soft rock
bottom.
So I never needed professionalhelp, but I could not stop on my
(13:29):
own.
And I reached out to a group ofanonymous women online, and I
talk about this in the book.
The book actually opens withthe moment that I reached out
for help and asked them forsupport as I attempted to
complete dry January.
And that was really the startof my journey.
Once I started getting into dryJanuary and the drinking fog,
the grogginess cleared, and Iwas able to actually look at
(13:52):
myself and kind of take stock ofwhere I was in my life for the
first time in years, that's whenI realized, oh, I'm not in
great shape here because I havebeen putting my partner before
me, my kids before me,everything before what I
actually need to take care ofmyself.
And I've been using alcohol tocover up the discomfort that I
(14:15):
felt about that and to numb thefact that I was putting myself
last.
So that's really when Irealized it.
And as I continued on myalcohol-free journey, and the
other thing I want to say iswhen I started that journey, I
did not start with the intent toquit drinking.
I started that journey with theintent to regain control over
(14:36):
drinking.
For me, that became wanting tobe a non-drinker.
Doesn't happen for everybody,that's fine.
But that's where I ended up.
Um, and so it was really atthat point that I realized oh,
this is not how I want to beshowing up.
And if I want to show updifferently, I need to start
prioritizing myself andasserting my needs.
(14:57):
And it took a lot of time and alot of practice to actually do
that consistently and withoutguilt.
Michele Folan (15:04):
Um, so Jen's dogs are upset about something.
Jen Butler (15:10):
They went to daycare yesterday.
I thought they would be tiredand they're not.
Michele Folan (15:15):
There's like a squirrel outside or the Amazon
driver.
I'm not sure which.
Seriously.
Which is usually both.
Yeah.
So every I'm not I'm notediting that out because again,
I don't disregard the dog.
I don't care.
Dirty hair, I don't care.
We just we're just we're we'rewinging it today, Jen.
Jen Butler (15:32):
I'm locking them in the closet next time, Michelle.
That's okay.
Michele Folan (15:35):
Don't worry about it.
I've I've got two dogs, butthey are crated right now
because they they go insane.
So, what do you think thebiggest unexpected gift then was
of quitting drinking?
Jen Butler (15:50):
I love this question too, because you know, there
are certain things you expect,right?
When you when you stopdrinking, or even if you cut
back on drinking, you expectyour skin to look better, you
expect to sleep better, and allof that happened.
And that was all wonderful.
But for me, the thing that Idid not expect was the
(16:11):
self-compassion that I gainedfrom stopping drinking.
I just I really started likingmyself again and started being
so much nicer to myself.
And that just felt so good.
And you know, it's notnecessarily our default, is it,
to be nice to ourselves?
(16:31):
We're so hard on ourselves.
And for me, quitting drinking,achieving that, gaining the
clarity that came along withthat, starting to reprioritize
myself just really made me likemyself again and just be nice to
myself again.
And that felt so good andcontinues to feel good.
That has not gotten old.
Michele Folan (16:52):
Do you see parallels though between how
moms use alcohol and how we useother coping mechanisms?
It could be shopping, it couldbe absolutely.
Jen Butler (17:03):
It's all about the dopamine, right?
Yeah.
Yep.
Online shopping for sure.
Even, you know, I used to to uhread like Us Weekly Magazine
and try to get like littledopamine hits from there.
I mean, you never know.
Of course, food also is a hugeone.
Social media is huge, and Istill fall prey to that.
Like, if I need a little boost,I'll go on and see like, oh,
(17:25):
who's liked my most recent post?
And that lights up the samereward circuit in our brain as
alcohol or chocolate orwhatever.
So there are there are so manydifferent coping mechanisms that
we use, so many different Glennand Joel calls them easy
buttons.
And, you know, I'm not here tosay like we're not allowed to
have any easy buttons.
Of course, we're all gonna useour easy buttons, but there may
(17:48):
be some that really are moredamaging than others.
And for me, alcohol was onethat just needed to go.
It was just too damaging.
So I still eat Nutella, I stillscroll social media, but I also
am able to do it moremindfully.
And for example, on socialmedia, I've curated my feed.
(18:10):
I realized that I was followingthings, following certain
accounts that just made me feelbad about myself.
And so I stopped followingthose accounts, you know.
So it's it's more of like acurated coping mechanism now
than it used to be, but alsojust being aware that we're
doing those things, right?
And being aware, like I'm gonnapick up my phone, I'm gonna
stroll for the next 20 minutesuntil my kids get home on the
(18:31):
bus.
And it it might not make mefeel that great, actually.
Like I can't expect to do thisand feel really good afterwards,
but you know what?
I'm tired today.
It's what I need in thismoment, and that's also okay.
Michele Folan (18:42):
You also talk about breaking up with diet
culture, which I think kind ofgoes hand in hand with this,
right?
I mean, yeah, yeah.
And and I I too broke up withdiet culture.
And uh yeah, look at us.
Oh, well, you know, because itwas all wrong.
It they they had it all wrong.
Exactly.
Jen Butler (19:00):
It doesn't such I love you just when that's so
simply, it's so true.
Michele Folan (19:04):
It doesn't work because it's just yeah, and
yeah, I I watch I watch womenwho, you know, I think for me
the biggest frustration, Jen, ishow long is it gonna take me to
lose the weight?
Like, um, we're two weeks in, Idon't see this working for me.
And I'm going, it's becausewe're still mired in that diet
(19:25):
culture of the 90s where weexpected, you know, if we if we
starved ourselves, we could losea few pounds.
Yep.
Well, it doesn't work that way,that it would stay off, right?
Like I know, it's not work formidlife.
You you're if you starveyourself, you're just gonna shut
down your metabolism.
Yep.
Jen Butler (19:45):
Yeah.
And and so Which is whathappened to me, which was the
last straw before I broke upwith diet culture, which I talk
about in the book.
Michele Folan (19:51):
Yeah.
So let's talk about that alittle bit.
What was the defining momentthat you said, okay, this is
just not working?
Jen Butler (19:58):
So I in um 2018-19, I became a kickboxing
instructor.
Just a little part-time sidehustle that was a really
wonderful thing for me becauseas I said before, you know, I
really needed more than justbeing a stay-at-home mom in my
life.
So I started teachingkickboxing, and that was
wonderful.
The gym was a it was a greatkickboxing gym.
(20:19):
The one thing though was thatthe women who went there were
very focused on what theirbodies look like and on dieting
to achieve certain things.
So, for example, you know, Isomeone told me at one point to
stop putting cream or oat milkor whatever in my coffee.
Like, you know, they were like,well, if you just cut that out,
(20:40):
think about that.
That's extra calories that youjust won't be consuming.
That kind of thing.
Michele Folan (20:44):
Yeah, and that takes all the joy out of life,
too.
Jen Butler (20:47):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, I tried black coffee andI was like, this is terrible,
but I felt like I needed todrink it black and ugh, never
again.
No offense to those who loveblack coffee.
You do you.
So working at that gym was agreat experience in that it
broke me out of stay-at-homemotherhood and gave me my own
thing, which was great, but itwas not great in that I was
surrounded by women who werevery focused on dieting and
(21:10):
their bodies and trying to fittheir bodies into certain shapes
that they just were not meantto be.
But I fell for all of that.
I was, you know, aiming forthat bulging six-pack.
I wanted the whole thing.
And there was a woman who wentthrough a very dramatic body
transformation.
And I asked her how she did it,and she said, Oh, I had this
amazing nutritionist.
(21:31):
You should reach out to her.
And so I did.
And when I met with thisnutritionist, this was um at the
start of 2020, this was likeJanuary 2020.
And I met with her.
I was wearing the smallest sizeclothes I'd ever worn, but I
still felt, you know, like Ididn't look the way I wanted to
look.
And I went into her and I wasteaching kickboxing, so I was
(21:53):
very fit.
And I went into her office andshe took some photos of me and
she said, the first thing youneed to know is that you are
obese.
And I believed her because I,you know, she was the
nutritionist, right?
She was the expert.
So I guess I was obese.
Okay.
And she told me that I neededto lose, I think 15 pounds, she
(22:15):
said.
And that her plan that she wasgonna put me on would have me
lose that weight.
And I thought, oh, okay.
If I'm gonna, I'm gonna dothis, I'm gonna lose these 15
pounds, and then I'll be happy.
Then I'll be at the point whereI wanna be, right?
Because that's the trick ofdiet culture.
If I just do this, then I'll behappy with the way I look,
right?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Butler (22:33):
Her plan basically put my body into starvation
mode.
The first night I read my kidstheir bedtime story and I got up
from my son's bed and I almostpassed out.
I lost five pounds in day onebecause I just was starving
myself.
Following her meal meal plan, Iput it in quotes because it
really was just like astarvation eating diet.
(22:54):
I mean, basically, yeah.
I mean, it was like kale withlike five grape tomatoes and you
know, I mean, it was just itwas awful.
I I was able to have oneteaspoon of nut butter once a
week.
It was really ridiculous,Michele.
But this is it though, right?
Like if we're if we can't zoomout and look and say, this is
(23:15):
insane.
Of course I'm not doing this.
If we're stuck in it, we do it.
And so I followed that program.
COVID happened, the you knowwhat hit the fan, and I still
followed her program.
I did it for three months.
So it was now uh March 2020when I reached the end of the
program.
COVID was at like full tilt.
(23:36):
Yeah.
Um, it I mean, it the timing ofall of it was insane.
And I, so we had our finalmeeting virtually.
I had weighed in that morningand I had lost the 15 pounds.
And so I got on the call withher and I said, I did it.
I'm at this weight.
And she said, Okay, well, youknow, you really need to lose
like another five or six poundsbecause you still have, you
still have a ways to go.
(23:57):
And I um got off, I said, okay,thank you very much for for
everything, you know, got offthe call with her and unleashed
a barrage of expletives, which Iwill not share here, but are in
the book.
And then I proceeded to walkdownstairs into my pantry, open
a new jar of almond, uh vanillaalmond butter, and I ate the
(24:18):
entire thing.
And that was when I realized Iam done with it.
That was Jen's revenge tour,which is the tour to your
pantry.
Oh my god.
It was my period stopped whileI was working with her.
It was, I look at photos ofmyself now from that last day,
(24:39):
because I took the like theafter photo, and I look awful,
gaunt, awful.
So anyway, all of this is tosay that that was to answer your
question, that was the momentwhere I realized F this.
I am out of diet culture.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
If this is what I have to gothrough to get to a certain
(25:01):
weight, and then only to be toldit's not enough, forget it.
I'm just gonna practiceexisting in my body the way that
it is.
It's COVID.
We're all at home wearing ourpajamas anyway, so forget it.
I'll just see what happens.
And what happened was I gainedback those 15 pounds.
I gained an additional 15pounds.
And then since then, I havereally not succumbed to any diet
(25:26):
culture stuff.
I've just been working on mypersonal relationship with food
and with eating and being intouch with my body and my hunger
cues.
And my body has taken up theshape that it always should have
been.
Michele Folan (25:38):
Yeah, you know, here's the other thing too, and
we don't have to, you know, getinto the whole long-term story
here.
But if we would just focus onhealth from the inside out, so
do what's right for our insides,it will start to reflect on the
outside.
(25:58):
And what I try to tell myclients, because most of them
are in midlife, I would say mostof my clients are probably 50
plus, if not 55 plus, that it'sreally about laying this healthy
foundation for your 80s,80-year-old self, your
90-year-old self.
(26:18):
And if you're doing that, ifyou're lifting weights and
you're eating the protein anddoing all that, and I know we we
talk about this all the time,you're you're doing you're doing
the stuff.
And you know, it's it's reallyabout your biomarkers and and
and those sorts of things.
It's not about trying to fitinto your genes that you wore in
(26:41):
2010.
That ship sails.
Jen Butler (26:44):
Exactly.
Yep.
Just you know, you know, women,women who talk about being this
is what I love about us is thatI work with women who are like
in a stage of life right beforethe stage of life that you work
with them.
I feel like they just, youknow, it's like, come to me and
then go to Michelle and you'llbe all set.
Um, so the women that I so Istill teach fitness, I teach
strength training classes and uhrebounder classes on a little
(27:07):
miniature trampoline.
And so the women that I workwith at my fitness studio are
generally in their 30s and 40s,some are in their early 50s as
well.
And, you know, when they're inthere, especially the younger
ones and they're talking about,you know, they've got to get
their pre-baby body back.
I usually zip it because it'snot, you know, they're having
their conversations.
I'm not gonna insert myselfinto their conversations, but
(27:27):
I'll take a moment here to saywhat I wish I always said to
them, which is you can't getyour pre-baby body back because
you are in a post-baby body.
You have had a baby.
Your body forevermore is apost-baby body.
So instead of trying to becomethe body that you had, embrace
(27:50):
the body that you have now.
And as you said, work from theinside out.
Focus on connecting to yourbody now as it is now and doing
what you need to do for yourselfnow instead of trying to be
what you used to be because yousimply are not.
You are someone who has givenbirth.
Your body has changed.
You know, for the women youwork with, it's like you are now
(28:13):
in menopause.
You're you can't get yourpre-menopausal body back or
what, you know, like you justyou can't.
You are in a different body.
So embrace it, connect to it.
Michele Folan (28:25):
You know, I'm getting ready to do the season
changeover of my closets.
Yes, yes.
Right?
And and you it's hoodie season.
I'm so excited.
I know it it was 50 somedegrees this morning.
There are things in my closetthat I know darn well will never
fit me again.
(28:45):
They're just not going tobecause my body has changed.
Shoot, it's and it's it's okayto hang on to that stuff, but
just have that realisticexpectation that maybe they'll
they're not gonna fit.
And it it's it it may free yoursoul to get rid of some of
those things.
So I'm just that's just mylittle aside.
Jen Butler (29:08):
Exactly.
It's it's about just, you know,giving yourself that grace and
just meeting yourself where youare.
You know, one of the firstthings I always say when I start
a fitness class and we're justdoing the active stretch to warm
up is I say to everybody, takethis time to connect to your
body because we are constantlytold that we need to be
different, look different, andand disconnect from our bodies.
(29:31):
You know, diet culturedisconnects you from your body
and your hunger cues.
Drinking disconnects you fromyour body because it numbs your
brain.
And so I always say toeverybody, just get into your
body, like put your own body on,like a skin, you know, really
get in there and connect andfeel how you are feeling today.
Not how you felt yesterday, nothow you want to feel, how you
(29:54):
are feeling right now in thismoment.
I think that that connection isso important and just.
Accepting and appreciatingwhere you are.
Michele Folan (30:03):
Yeah.
You know, I need to ask youthis.
Was there a chapter or asection in the book that was
particularly hard for you towrite or was, or maybe healing?
Jen Butler (30:16):
Well, most of the book was.
Okay.
Because it was a lot of, it wasrevisiting childhood trauma and
really aspects of my childhoodthat I couldn't even name as
trauma until I wrote the bookand thought that was traumatic
and it's okay.
So yeah, there were manymoments of the book that I that
(30:36):
I wrote that were very hard towrite.
And I initially glossed oversome things.
And I worked with two editorsduring my writing process.
And I am forever grateful tothem because they both said to
me at different stages of theprocess, okay, this scene, you
really need to go there.
You can't just gloss over thisbecause it's not gonna, no one's
(30:57):
gonna connect with it.
They're gonna, your readers aregonna be able to tell that
you're just glossing over it.
You really need to go there.
And I would say the things thatwere hardest for me to write,
oh gosh, I mean, a lot of mydrinking stuff was very hard for
me to write.
There was one hangover that Ihad, it was really the first
time where I was, I was sick.
(31:19):
And it was the first time mykids saw me that ill from
drinking the night before.
And I had to cover up for it.
My husband had to cover for me.
It was just an awfulexperience.
And writing about that andwriting the, I'm like closing my
(31:39):
eyes as I'm telling you thisbecause it is, it's, it's, it
was really hard to do.
And it's even hard for me tosay it now, but writing the
dialogue between me and my kidsthat morning when I woke up and
they were like fresh face andbeing so cute, and and I'm there
in bed, like reeking of alcoholand trying to pretend that I
(31:59):
didn't feel horrible.
And scenes like that were very,very challenging for me to
write.
And and some other stuff too,that was very challenging.
Some stuff in my sex life thathappened that was very hard that
we don't have to get into here.
But I'll tell you, writingthrough all of that was the most
healing thing I have ever done.
And I have been in therapy.
(32:21):
I'm in therapy now.
I have an amazing therapist.
Um, I've done some inner childwork with a coach, which I
actually talk about in the book.
And all of that has beenhealing as well.
But the most healing thing I'veever done has been writing this
book and going back to thosescenes, putting myself back into
my childhood self, into myadolescent self, my early
(32:42):
motherhood self, writing my waythrough it, and then getting to
the point in the book where Ihave processed all of that and I
embrace who I am now.
The most healing thing I'veever done, for sure.
Michele Folan (32:54):
I want to destigmatize the therapy thing.
You brought up let's do it.
Yeah, you you brought up havinga therapist, and I think this
is a great segue.
You know, I don't know whypeople find it so hard to admit
or to even seek you know,therapy.
Jen Butler (33:15):
Thoughts on that?
It's it's really too bad.
Well, my thoughts are that theworld would be a better place if
everyone was in therapy.
And finding my therapist, Istarted working with my
therapist.
It's been almost a year.
I went to her last October, andit was right as so I finished
my manuscript last December.
So I started seeing a therapistfor the last two months that I
(33:39):
was writing my manuscript.
And this book would not be whatit is if I had not started
therapy and really given myselfthis that safe space to access
parts of myself that I then wasable to put into the book.
I adore my therapist.
She is amazing.
(34:00):
If she were, if she were herein this interview, she would
say, like, Jen, you're the onedoing all the work.
You're the one doing all thework.
But really, she creates for mea safe space where I can just
have time to process thingswithout judgment, without guilt.
I can just show up exactly as Iam and work through things in a
(34:25):
way that you just can't whenyou're on your own and
distracted by what's going on inyour everyday life.
Yeah.
And she also is very gifted inthat she's able to draw
parallels.
So I'll come into her sometimeswith just, you know, four
different anecdotes.
I'll be like, here's whathappened this week, and I'll
tell her all this stuff.
And then she is able to likedraw out these parallels between
(34:48):
these different stories andoffer me that that just like
missing piece where I realize,like, oh, that's why these
different things that happenedhave been weighing on me.
You know, things frommotherhood and partnership and
professional work, it they alltie together.
And that's one beautiful thingabout therapy.
(35:08):
When you find a good therapistand you have to find a good one,
and that can take a lot ofwork.
Because I've had some, I've hadsome stinkers as well.
Some therapists I should havebroken up with way sooner than I
did.
Um, but when you find the rightperson and it's the right fit,
it is just the most beautiful,healing, empowering experience.
Michele Folan (35:31):
This morning I was reading an article about
meno divorce.
Ooh.
And I was reading it to myhusband.
He's looking at me like, areyou trying to tell me something?
I'm like, no, honey, you'restuck with me.
But I often think that womenget to this place in life where
maybe they haven't rediscoveredthemselves yet, or maybe they
(35:54):
have.
Maybe they are starting to rerediscover themselves, whether
it's, you know, the kids haveleft the nest, whatever, and
they're starting to think, uh, Ithis isn't really what I want
for the next 20 years.
And maybe if if we were alittle more inclined to seek
(36:18):
therapy, help, whatever, maybefewer of us would get into this
conundrum of I'm married to thisperson, I this is not, you
know, what I signed up for.
Jen Butler (36:33):
Yep.
Michele Folan (36:34):
And, you know, I just thought that was so
interesting that this thisarticle about meno divorce
really shows that women in thatthat age group, so kind of my
age group, are the ones that areseeking divorce.
And I, you know, it's just partof this whole rediscovery thing
is that women are finally maybefiguring things out for
(36:56):
themselves that they've keptstifled all those years.
Jen Butler (36:59):
Yes.
I completely agree with that.
And I think it really there areperiods of transition in our
lives as women where all of thisstuff just kind of comes to a
head, right?
Like for me, it's thetransition from early motherhood
to what I call mid-motherhood.
So for me, that was my son, myyounger child, my son, starting
(37:20):
kindergarten.
So both kids got into school,were in full-time school.
And therefore I was out of thenursery school slog and all
that, both kids in schoolfull-time.
That was, and that was when Istarted stopping drinking
because I got to this point andI thought, okay, I now have all
this time back.
What am I doing with my life?
(37:40):
Like, let me look at things andand okay, well, alcohol's got
to get figured out.
So I think it's true.
There are just these phases inour lives, whether it's early
motherhood to mid-motherhood,mid-motherhood to empty nest,
you know, perimenopause tomenopause, um, where we have
it's we have kind of like areckoning.
(38:01):
You know, I call it likeself-spelunking, you know,
because that's that's how itfelt for me.
Like I just was sort of likeself-spelunking, like going
inside, getting in there, goingdeep into my guts and thinking
about how I want to show up, andthen coming to terms with the
fact that I was not showing upthe way I want to show up.
And that can be very scary.
(38:22):
And then doing thatindividually, but also in a
partnership, I mean, it's very,very complex.
And I totally agree thattherapy, whether it's individual
therapy or couples counseling,is a great step to take, you
know, proactively instead ofreactively.
But if you end up doing itreactively, that's also okay
because at least you're inthere.
Michele Folan (38:43):
Yeah.
So you kind of went at thisyour way.
You quit drinking and then theball started rolling in your
self-discovery.
Yes.
How do you suggest women whoare they're stuck?
Whether they're 45 or they're65, they feel stuck.
How do they start?
(39:04):
Where's the what's the firststep?
Jen Butler (39:06):
Uh, I would say I love this question so much.
And it's, I wish it was a, youknow, I want everyone who feels
stuck to hear this.
So I think you need to try yourbest, because this is hard, to
kind of zoom out of your lifeand look down onto your life and
(39:27):
think, what is happening herethat's not serving me?
Is there something, is theresome area of this?
In in my coaching practice, Ido an exercise called the life
circle, where it's almost like alike a trivial pursuit pie, you
know, and you and you break acircle up into different pie
pieces of your life.
So professional, you know,motherhood, partnership,
(39:48):
individual goals, hobbies,community, whatever kind of
makes up your life circle as yousee it.
And then you look at yourcircle and you think, how
fulfilling are each of thesepieces of the pie?
And for me, that was reallyhelpful in my own journey.
And I think it's just reallyhelpful to kind of do that.
(40:11):
Like take a survey and you'llsee it.
If you take that time to zoomout, look at your life, you will
see the if you let yourself,you will see the area where
something's not going on.
You know, maybe yourpartnership is great, maybe your
relationship with your kids isgreat and you're feeling really
good about who you are as aparent, but maybe your
(40:34):
professional life is not servingyou and you need to make a job
change, or you need to go backto work, or you need to retire,
or whatever it may be.
And once you identify that areathat is keeping you stuck and
holding you back, then you haveto be brave enough to do the
work to unstick yourself.
Michele Folan (40:55):
Yeah, because this is my mantra, and this was
one of my five pillars.
Staying stuck because you fearchange is the scariest
proposition of all.
Jen Butler (41:08):
Yes.
Yes.
And it's also a choice, right?
Staying stuck is a choice.
It is not happening by default,it is not happening to you.
You are choosing to stay stuck.
And people are gonna hear thatand be like, not they're gonna
want to tell me to, you know, bequiet.
(41:29):
Um because that can be reallyhard to hear.
unknown (41:34):
Yeah.
Jen Butler (41:35):
But it's true.
That was a choice.
I I that is a choice.
I I chose to continue drinking.
It didn't just happen to me.
Nobody took a bottle of wineand poured it down my throat.
I chose to drink, I chose tonot change my relationship with
alcohol until I zoomed out,looked at myself, and thought,
(41:56):
my relationship with alcohol isreally holding me back.
And it's something that I'vegot to address.
And then I made the choice toaddress it.
But in the meantime, it's notlike it was happening by
default.
I was choosing to not createchange.
Michele Folan (42:11):
You know, I know we talk about alcohol a lot on
the podcast, and I don't makeapologies for that.
And the reason we talk aboutalcohol a lot is because I've
had my own epiphany around myrelationship with alcohol.
But also because in mycoaching, I see where alcohol
(42:34):
really pulls women down.
And I figure if the women thatI coach have issues, then I know
my listeners are alsostruggling with that tug of war
around that nightly glass or twoof wine or whatever you choose
(42:54):
as your poison.
And I love when people like JenButler are brave and they can
come forward and say, Hey, thiswas bad.
This was bad for my life, but Imade this choice.
I chose me.
Yes.
(43:15):
I chose me over alcohol.
And for anyone that has triedto quit, you know full well that
it is not, it's not easy.
And so kudos, Jen, for just notjust sharing your story about
(43:37):
alcohol, but just your yourstory in general, because I
think of all the women out therethat are listening right now
who are nodding their heads,going, yeah, yeah, I get it, I
get it.
And I want to talk about yourbook, Mom Rediscovered.
And I want people to get thebook, but think of the women in
(44:02):
your life who would benefit fromhearing Jen's story.
And and even if you may not, itmay not resonate a hundred
percent with everyone, everyaspect of it, it's really the
theme here is stepping out andnot being afraid of basically
(44:27):
self-care.
Yeah.
Jen Butler (44:30):
Yeah.
I love what you just said aboutchoosing you, you know, making
that active choice to chooseyourself.
And you have to, you have topractice doing that.
Practice is one of my favoritewords, and you have to do it
again and again and again.
It's not just like you're gonnado you're one and done, right?
It's practicing choosingyourself every day, multiple
(44:52):
times of a day in multiple ways.
And it's not selfish, it is notselfish.
It's vital.
It really is.
And when and when I start,whenever I still get like little
pangs of guilt.
And I always try to think aboutmy daughter and my son too, but
especially my daughter, and tothink about, you know, do I want
(45:15):
her at age almost 45 notchoosing herself?
Heck no! I want her choosingherself.
I want her choosing herself nowand always.
I want her putting herselffirst.
I want her preserving herselfso she can show up for other
people and learning to take careof herself and trusting that by
(45:37):
prioritizing herself, she willbe able to better show up for
other people in her life.
Michele Folan (45:44):
And it's such an important point because I think
so often women think of, youknow, it's selfish.
I, you know, putting myselffirst, that just sounds so
selfish.
But at the end of the day,we're only going to be better
for other people.
And you know what?
I I think that that's a greatthing.
Jen Butler (46:04):
Yep.
Choosing yourself and andchoosing to take up space.
And that was one thing Irealized when I when I stopped
drinking, but also when I quitdiet culture.
So really, you know, that thatpiece also is so important.
I know we talk about thedrinking a lot, but you know,
the subtitle of my book is MyMidlife Breakup with Drinking
and Diet Culture, because theyboth were such important
(46:26):
breakups in my life.
And they both, both of thosethings made me feel so small and
made me want to just shut downand be quiet and go in my little
box and stay in my little box.
And now that I have broken outof that box, I feel so much more
(46:48):
myself.
And I'm just so much morecontent.
I really, you know, and just atpeace with myself.
That you use the phrase tug ofwar.
And that is so, that's such aperfect phrase for that
cognitive dissonance thathappens, not just with alcohol,
but also with food and and allthe rest of it, right?
(47:09):
This feeling of like, oh, Ishouldn't do that, and but I'm
going to, and the more we canfree ourselves from that
cognitive dissonance and justshow up as ourselves and and
embrace who we are, ugh, it'sjust so much more, you know,
peaceful.
Life is just so much morepeaceful and happier.
(47:30):
Absolutely.
Michele Folan (47:31):
All right.
Book launch official date isOctober 21st.
All right.
So this podcast will air rightaround that time.
And we're I know I'm too.
We're gonna do a really funbookstore event together in
Cincinnati where I live thisNovember.
Can't wait.
And what are you most lookingforward to about connecting live
(47:56):
with readers?
Jen Butler (47:57):
Oh my gosh.
Well, first of all, I justcan't wait to meet you,
Michelle, and give you such abig hug.
I think it is really magicalwhen women come together and
just show up honest, open,authentic as we are.
That's one reason why I loveteaching fitness and why I am so
(48:18):
excited to go on my book tour.
Because I cannot wait to justbe there like, hey, I wrote this
book.
You know, there's all thesescenes where I'm just like such
a hot mess, but here I amholding my book in my hands.
Like, what do you, what do youwant to do?
Like, what are you up to?
What's your journey?
And also just to hear, I mean,I've already gotten such amazing
feedback from my advancedreaders about aspects of the
(48:41):
book that that really um thatthey really connected with.
And I'm just, I can't wait tohear those stories in person, to
hear from people, you know, I Ithought it was just me, but it
isn't.
Now I realize it's not, or, youknow, you went through this.
It reminded me of when I wentthrough this in my life.
And I I just I can't wait.
And I can't, I learned so muchfrom my coaching clients, my
(49:05):
fitness clients, and now I justcan't wait for everything that
I'm going to learn from myreaders.
Michele Folan (49:11):
Yeah.
This is gonna be a lot of fun.
Where can listeners pre-orderthe book, Mom Rediscovered, and
then find you your Substack andfollow you online?
Jen Butler (49:23):
Yes.
Okay, so here's all the info.
You can pre-order my book, MomRediscovered, at Amazon, also at
Barnes and Noble, which isBN.com, and also at
bookshop.org.
Another great thing to do is togo to your local bookstore and
pre-order it through them.
They will be able to order itfor you, and then that helps get
the book on their radar, whichis also really helpful for me.
(49:45):
So any of those ways, whateveryou want to do, is great.
And I am very appreciative ofall of that.
You can also find me onInstagram and TikTok.
My handle is at Jen ButlerRights.
And so you can find me there.
I'm on those platforms all thetime.
My book website ismomrediscovered.com.
So that has all the informationabout my book and where to
(50:08):
order it.
It also has a free book clubkit that I completely nerded out
designing and creating.
I love that project so much.
I love a worksheet.
So this is like a whole thingof worksheets.
So that is available as a freedownload on my website.
And if you want me to be aguest at your book club, I would
love to do that.
So there's also a link on mywebsite that connects you to a
(50:30):
request form if you would likeme to be at your book club.
Oh, my dogs are chirping upagain.
Isn't that great?
Michele Folan (50:35):
Oh, I know.
Jen Butler (50:36):
I was like, okay, they're like, okay, so much dogs
for coming on at the end here.
Michele Folan (50:41):
There's like mom, that's enough.
Jen Butler (50:43):
Um, and then my Substack is best mom never.
And that link is umsubstack.com slash Jen Butler or
something like that.
But just search for best momnever on Substack and you can
join that community there.
Michele Folan (50:55):
Perfect, Jen.
This is terrific.
I look forward to seeing you inNovember.
Thanks for being here today.
Jen Butler (51:01):
Thank you so much for having me back, Michele, and
thanks for everything.
Michele Folan (51:06):
Thank you for listening.
Please rate and review thepodcast where you listen.
And if you'd like to join theAsking for a Friend community,
click on the link in the shownotes to sign up for my weekly
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And here's the best part it'sonly $99 to join.
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So if you've been waiting forthe right time, this is it.
Click the link in the shownotes.
And if you prefer one-on-onecoaching, I have options for you
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Health, wellness, fitness, andeverything in between.
We're removing the taboo fromwhat really matters in midlife.
I'm your host, Michele Folan,and this is Asking for a Friend.
Today's guest is someone you'regoing to love hearing from
(01:10):
again.
My friend, writer, and truthteller, Jen Butler.
If you've been with me for awhile, you might remember Jen's
first visit to the podcast whereshe opened up about her
decision to go alcohol free andhow it reshaped her life.
That conversation struck achord with so many of you.
Well, Jen is back, and she'sgot a new book coming out this
(01:33):
October called Mom Rediscovered.
It's raw, it's real, and it'sall about peeling back the
layers of motherhood to find thewoman underneath, the one who
may have been lost somewherebetween diaper changes, school
drop-offs, soccer practice, andthat glass of wine at the end of
the day.
Jen's voice is refreshinglyhonest, sometimes funny, and
(01:54):
always deeply relatable.
We're going to talk about herbook, her alcohol-free journey,
and what it really means torediscover yourself as a mom in
the messy middle of life.
And let's be real, Jen and Ialways have a great time
together.
So you're in for a lively,heartfelt, and maybe even a
little sassy conversation.
So grab your coffee, yourwalking shoes, or whatever you
(02:18):
like to do while you listen,because this one is going to
make you think, laugh, and maybesee your own story a little
differently.
Jen Butler, welcome back.
Jen Butler (02:27):
Oh my gosh, Michele.
Thank you.
Thank you.
That introduction just has meall up in my feelings already.
Michele Folan (02:34):
Well, it's so fun to get together with you.
And you know what I love aboutdoing this podcast is that you
and I have never lost touch.
We've we've kind ofcommunicated over the years
since you did that firstpodcast.
And you know, I think maybe thebest place to start, just in
case listeners hadn't listenedto that first podcast, just to
(02:58):
share a little bit about yourbackground and what brought you
to writing.
Jen Butler (03:03):
Oh my gosh.
All right.
So, yes, because that was acouple of years ago now, I
think, that we did that podcast,right?
As I was navigating my lifecoaching journey and my
alcohol-free journey.
And when this book was stilljust a dream and a goal, but not
something physical that I cannow hold in my hands, which is
(03:23):
still very surreal.
So I have always wanted towrite a book.
I have journaled voraciouslysince I was in sixth grade.
It just was something that wasalways a goal.
I always wanted to hold my ownbook in my hands.
But I never knew what story Iwanted to tell.
I knew that I wanted to do somesort of nonfiction thing, kind
(03:43):
of stemming from my journaling,telling, sharing my story, but I
didn't know what my story was.
And it really wasn't until Istarted my alcohol-free journey,
and you and I talked about thatlong ago, but I can I can also
touch on that again.
It's now been over seven yearsthat I've been alcohol free.
And once I started thatjourney, and certainly once I
(04:05):
got to a point where I became anon-drinker, I thought, oh, now
I have something that I reallywant to share because I'm very
proud of this journey.
I will never say that I thinkeverybody needs to stop
drinking, but for me, thatjourney was about conquering
something that was holding meback and regaining control over
something that had control overme and really rediscovering
(04:28):
myself in that.
So when I first started writingthis book, it was really about
my alcohol-free journey.
And what I found was I kind ofstalled out and I felt really
weird about that for a while.
Like, why can't I finish thisproject?
I've wanted to write a bookforever.
And it's because I realizedthat that alcohol-free journey
(04:49):
is just a part of my story.
It's just one part of the storythat I wanted to tell.
And there's more to me thanthat.
And so that's what this wholebook is about, really is about
my motherhood journey.
And alcohol and quittingalcohol plays a huge role in
that.
But also I touch upon dietculture and breaking up with
(05:11):
diet culture.
That's been a huge part of myjourney.
I talk about losing myprofessional identity and how
hard that was for me.
I really touch on all theaspects of what motherhood has
been in my life.
And, you know, there's nofinish line.
I'm certainly not done with thework, but I had enough of an
arc to be able to share mystory.
And I just, it's so wonderfuland surreal that I'm coming on
(05:32):
and talking about it with youtoday.
Michele Folan (05:33):
When we first met, so you guys can't see Jen's
background, but she has aplethora of books.
You've always been a voraciousreader.
Yes.
And I remember you had hintedabout a book when when we first
spoke.
But you did you did startwriting because you you built
(05:57):
this really strong communitythrough your Substack, and which
was called Best Mom Never,which I I love.
How did that space shape yourvoice as a writer and a mom
advocate?
Jen Butler (06:10):
Yep.
So I I love this question.
I love my Substack.
I still post there regularly.
It's called Best Mom Never.
And that really, the Substackhas given me more confidence to
really just share myselfauthentically.
So I go on there and I just Italk about everything from, you
(06:31):
know, something that somethingvery small that happened in my
day to my entire book journey.
So my Substack really helped mefind and focus my voice, I
would say.
And it really, the commentsthat I started getting back from
readers and the community thatis formed around that made me
feel like, oh, you know what?
There are people who areresonating with my story.
(06:54):
There are people who say, oh,I'm not the only one that feels
that way.
And that really fueled mymotivation and desire to finish
my book and get it out into theworld.
Michele Folan (07:06):
All right.
How long then did it take youto write it?
Jen Butler (07:11):
So I will answer this question, and anyone who's
listening who aspires to write abook will feel very daunted by
my answer.
But I'm gonna be honest.
So this book from, you know,really when I first started
writing scenes that are in thefinished version has been
between five and seven years, Iwould say, which seems like
forever.
I know that, and it seems sodaunting.
(07:34):
But now that the book is done,it makes me realize I couldn't
have done it in any shorter of atime frame because I needed to
be working on it as I was goingthrough my alcohol-free journey.
And I needed to be writingthose scenes when I was feeling
those things and when I was init.
But I also needed to completemy arc.
(07:57):
So I needed to do more living.
I couldn't have ended this bookin 2019 when I stopped drinking
or 2018.
I needed to do more living andfigure out what my actual arc
was.
So that's why it took so long.
It also took a while because,as I said, I sort of stopped and
started.
I thought it was just gonna bea quit lit story, so just a
story about quitting drinking.
(08:18):
Then I realized I wanted it tobe more, but I didn't, I hadn't
done that living yet.
So I thought, well, maybe it'llbe like a self-help memoir
hybrid kind of thing.
And I got some very preciousand important advice from my
friend Zibi Owens, who is, well,she's everything.
She is a voracious reader,podcast host, publisher,
(08:40):
bookstore owner.
She's a she's a wonderful andinfluential figure in the book
space.
And she said to me, Don't tryto play the market.
Your story as it is is worthsharing right from your heart.
And when that was sort of likea permission slip.
I'm a rule follower, Michele.
You know this about me.
(09:00):
Yeah.
So it's almost like that advicewas the permission slip I
needed to let go of the idea oftrying to do something fancy,
self-help, memoir, hybrid, andreally just write my story.
And I try to do the same thingon my Substack and just be real
and offer something that I hopesomeone will see themselves in
(09:20):
and that will help them feellike they are not alone.
Michele Folan (09:23):
Do you feel like that kind of theme is part of
your own rediscovery journey?
Jen Butler (09:30):
100%.
Michele Folan (09:32):
Yeah.
Jen Butler (09:32):
Yep.
I became so isolated when I hadkids.
It really was, and it just sohappened, and I share this in
the book, that um my husband andI moved a lot when we have
kids, and when we first hadkids, because he changed jobs a
lot.
We also moved from a city tothe suburbs because we wanted
that experience once we had ourfirst our first baby.
(09:54):
And I, in the course of allthose moves, I lost touch with
friends, I lost community, and Ibecame increasingly isolated as
a new and exhausted mom.
So the really the antidote tothat was connection.
(10:14):
And that, and at first for me,it was, you know, virtual.
I had a lot of really importantvirtual connections in my life.
But then I also made somereally important friends in
certain stages of my life.
And but all those people,whether they were virtual
friends or real life friends,helped me realize oh, I'm not
the only one that's strugglinghere.
(10:35):
I'm not the only one that'sexhausted.
I'm not the only one that feelslike simply being a mom is not
fulfilling enough, but at thesame time has lost my
professional identity.
And that has all really helped.
And that's what I'm now tryingto do for other women by
offering my story.
Michele Folan (10:51):
We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come
back, I want to talk aboutmotherhood and its many layers.
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We are back.
Before we went on break, youstarted talking about these many
layers.
All the things that we are.
(11:54):
So caretaker, professional,worker sometimes, uh, partner,
friend.
But we're those things to a lotof people.
And we get lost maybe along theway because we stop being that
to ourselves.
Jen Butler (12:10):
Ugh.
Yes.
Yeah?
Yes.
And we fall to the bottom ofour own priority list.
Yeah.
Michele Folan (12:17):
When did you finally discover that that's
what had been happening withyou?
Ugh, that's it.
Jen Butler (12:23):
Makes me sad to think about it because I wish
I'd realized it so much sooner,you know, but I think probably
every mom can say the samething.
It really was when I first I'mgonna phrase this awkwardly, but
that's on purpose.
When I first started stoppingdrinking.
Okay.
(12:43):
I know that sounds weird, but Ium, and and I know we've we've
talked about my alcohol-freejourney before, but for those
who don't know, so I was what Icall a gray area drinker.
And what that means is that Iwas stuck in the space between
take it or leave it drinking,totally uncomplicated
relationship with alcohol, and afull-blown capital P problem.
(13:05):
I was in this murky fog in themiddle where I had a really hard
time going for more than one ortwo days without drinking.
And once I started drinking, Ihad a really hard time stopping
at one or two drinks and nothaving more.
So I finally kind of reached mywhat I call my soft rock
bottom.
So I never needed professionalhelp, but I could not stop on my
(13:29):
own.
And I reached out to a group ofanonymous women online, and I
talk about this in the book.
The book actually opens withthe moment that I reached out
for help and asked them forsupport as I attempted to
complete dry January.
And that was really the startof my journey.
Once I started getting into dryJanuary and the drinking fog,
the grogginess cleared, and Iwas able to actually look at
(13:52):
myself and kind of take stock ofwhere I was in my life for the
first time in years, that's whenI realized, oh, I'm not in
great shape here because I havebeen putting my partner before
me, my kids before me,everything before what I
actually need to take care ofmyself.
And I've been using alcohol tocover up the discomfort that I
(14:15):
felt about that and to numb thefact that I was putting myself
last.
So that's really when Irealized it.
And as I continued on myalcohol-free journey, and the
other thing I want to say iswhen I started that journey, I
did not start with the intent toquit drinking.
I started that journey with theintent to regain control over
(14:36):
drinking.
For me, that became wanting tobe a non-drinker.
Doesn't happen for everybody,that's fine.
But that's where I ended up.
Um, and so it was really atthat point that I realized oh,
this is not how I want to beshowing up.
And if I want to show updifferently, I need to start
prioritizing myself andasserting my needs.
(14:57):
And it took a lot of time and alot of practice to actually do
that consistently and withoutguilt.
Michele Folan (15:04):
Um, so Jen's dogs are upset about something.
Jen Butler (15:10):
They went to daycare yesterday.
I thought they would be tiredand they're not.
Michele Folan (15:15):
There's like a squirrel outside or the Amazon
driver.
I'm not sure which.
Seriously.
Which is usually both.
Yeah.
So every I'm not I'm notediting that out because again,
I don't disregard the dog.
I don't care.
Dirty hair, I don't care.
We just we're just we're we'rewinging it today, Jen.
Jen Butler (15:32):
I'm locking them in the closet next time, Michelle.
That's okay.
Michele Folan (15:35):
Don't worry about it.
I've I've got two dogs, butthey are crated right now
because they they go insane.
So, what do you think thebiggest unexpected gift then was
of quitting drinking?
Jen Butler (15:50):
I love this question too, because you know, there
are certain things you expect,right?
When you when you stopdrinking, or even if you cut
back on drinking, you expectyour skin to look better, you
expect to sleep better, and allof that happened.
And that was all wonderful.
But for me, the thing that Idid not expect was the
(16:11):
self-compassion that I gainedfrom stopping drinking.
I just I really started likingmyself again and started being
so much nicer to myself.
And that just felt so good.
And you know, it's notnecessarily our default, is it,
to be nice to ourselves?
(16:31):
We're so hard on ourselves.
And for me, quitting drinking,achieving that, gaining the
clarity that came along withthat, starting to reprioritize
myself just really made me likemyself again and just be nice to
myself again.
And that felt so good andcontinues to feel good.
That has not gotten old.
Michele Folan (16:52):
Do you see parallels though between how
moms use alcohol and how we useother coping mechanisms?
It could be shopping, it couldbe absolutely.
Jen Butler (17:03):
It's all about the dopamine, right?
Yeah.
Yep.
Online shopping for sure.
Even, you know, I used to to uhread like Us Weekly Magazine
and try to get like littledopamine hits from there.
I mean, you never know.
Of course, food also is a hugeone.
Social media is huge, and Istill fall prey to that.
Like, if I need a little boost,I'll go on and see like, oh,
(17:25):
who's liked my most recent post?
And that lights up the samereward circuit in our brain as
alcohol or chocolate orwhatever.
So there are there are so manydifferent coping mechanisms that
we use, so many different Glennand Joel calls them easy
buttons.
And, you know, I'm not here tosay like we're not allowed to
have any easy buttons.
Of course, we're all gonna useour easy buttons, but there may
(17:48):
be some that really are moredamaging than others.
And for me, alcohol was onethat just needed to go.
It was just too damaging.
So I still eat Nutella, I stillscroll social media, but I also
am able to do it moremindfully.
And for example, on socialmedia, I've curated my feed.
(18:10):
I realized that I was followingthings, following certain
accounts that just made me feelbad about myself.
And so I stopped followingthose accounts, you know.
So it's it's more of like acurated coping mechanism now
than it used to be, but alsojust being aware that we're
doing those things, right?
And being aware, like I'm gonnapick up my phone, I'm gonna
stroll for the next 20 minutesuntil my kids get home on the
(18:31):
bus.
And it it might not make mefeel that great, actually.
Like I can't expect to do thisand feel really good afterwards,
but you know what?
I'm tired today.
It's what I need in thismoment, and that's also okay.
Michele Folan (18:42):
You also talk about breaking up with diet
culture, which I think kind ofgoes hand in hand with this,
right?
I mean, yeah, yeah.
And and I I too broke up withdiet culture.
And uh yeah, look at us.
Oh, well, you know, because itwas all wrong.
It they they had it all wrong.
Exactly.
Jen Butler (19:00):
It doesn't such I love you just when that's so
simply, it's so true.
Michele Folan (19:04):
It doesn't work because it's just yeah, and
yeah, I I watch I watch womenwho, you know, I think for me
the biggest frustration, Jen, ishow long is it gonna take me to
lose the weight?
Like, um, we're two weeks in, Idon't see this working for me.
And I'm going, it's becausewe're still mired in that diet
(19:25):
culture of the 90s where weexpected, you know, if we if we
starved ourselves, we could losea few pounds.
Yep.
Well, it doesn't work that way,that it would stay off, right?
Like I know, it's not work formidlife.
You you're if you starveyourself, you're just gonna shut
down your metabolism.
Yep.
Jen Butler (19:45):
Yeah.
And and so Which is whathappened to me, which was the
last straw before I broke upwith diet culture, which I talk
about in the book.
Michele Folan (19:51):
Yeah.
So let's talk about that alittle bit.
What was the defining momentthat you said, okay, this is
just not working?
Jen Butler (19:58):
So I in um 2018-19, I became a kickboxing
instructor.
Just a little part-time sidehustle that was a really
wonderful thing for me becauseas I said before, you know, I
really needed more than justbeing a stay-at-home mom in my
life.
So I started teachingkickboxing, and that was
wonderful.
The gym was a it was a greatkickboxing gym.
(20:19):
The one thing though was thatthe women who went there were
very focused on what theirbodies look like and on dieting
to achieve certain things.
So, for example, you know, Isomeone told me at one point to
stop putting cream or oat milkor whatever in my coffee.
Like, you know, they were like,well, if you just cut that out,
(20:40):
think about that.
That's extra calories that youjust won't be consuming.
That kind of thing.
Michele Folan (20:44):
Yeah, and that takes all the joy out of life,
too.
Jen Butler (20:47):
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, I tried black coffee andI was like, this is terrible,
but I felt like I needed todrink it black and ugh, never
again.
No offense to those who loveblack coffee.
You do you.
So working at that gym was agreat experience in that it
broke me out of stay-at-homemotherhood and gave me my own
thing, which was great, but itwas not great in that I was
surrounded by women who werevery focused on dieting and
(21:10):
their bodies and trying to fittheir bodies into certain shapes
that they just were not meantto be.
But I fell for all of that.
I was, you know, aiming forthat bulging six-pack.
I wanted the whole thing.
And there was a woman who wentthrough a very dramatic body
transformation.
And I asked her how she did it,and she said, Oh, I had this
amazing nutritionist.
(21:31):
You should reach out to her.
And so I did.
And when I met with thisnutritionist, this was um at the
start of 2020, this was likeJanuary 2020.
And I met with her.
I was wearing the smallest sizeclothes I'd ever worn, but I
still felt, you know, like Ididn't look the way I wanted to
look.
And I went into her and I wasteaching kickboxing, so I was
(21:53):
very fit.
And I went into her office andshe took some photos of me and
she said, the first thing youneed to know is that you are
obese.
And I believed her because I,you know, she was the
nutritionist, right?
She was the expert.
So I guess I was obese.
Okay.
And she told me that I neededto lose, I think 15 pounds, she
(22:15):
said.
And that her plan that she wasgonna put me on would have me
lose that weight.
And I thought, oh, okay.
If I'm gonna, I'm gonna dothis, I'm gonna lose these 15
pounds, and then I'll be happy.
Then I'll be at the point whereI wanna be, right?
Because that's the trick ofdiet culture.
If I just do this, then I'll behappy with the way I look,
right?
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Butler (22:33):
Her plan basically put my body into starvation
mode.
The first night I read my kidstheir bedtime story and I got up
from my son's bed and I almostpassed out.
I lost five pounds in day onebecause I just was starving
myself.
Following her meal meal plan, Iput it in quotes because it
really was just like astarvation eating diet.
(22:54):
I mean, basically, yeah.
I mean, it was like kale withlike five grape tomatoes and you
know, I mean, it was just itwas awful.
I I was able to have oneteaspoon of nut butter once a
week.
It was really ridiculous,Michele.
But this is it though, right?
Like if we're if we can't zoomout and look and say, this is
(23:15):
insane.
Of course I'm not doing this.
If we're stuck in it, we do it.
And so I followed that program.
COVID happened, the you knowwhat hit the fan, and I still
followed her program.
I did it for three months.
So it was now uh March 2020when I reached the end of the
program.
COVID was at like full tilt.
(23:36):
Yeah.
Um, it I mean, it the timing ofall of it was insane.
And I, so we had our finalmeeting virtually.
I had weighed in that morningand I had lost the 15 pounds.
And so I got on the call withher and I said, I did it.
I'm at this weight.
And she said, Okay, well, youknow, you really need to lose
like another five or six poundsbecause you still have, you
still have a ways to go.
(23:57):
And I um got off, I said, okay,thank you very much for for
everything, you know, got offthe call with her and unleashed
a barrage of expletives, which Iwill not share here, but are in
the book.
And then I proceeded to walkdownstairs into my pantry, open
a new jar of almond, uh vanillaalmond butter, and I ate the
(24:18):
entire thing.
And that was when I realized Iam done with it.
That was Jen's revenge tour,which is the tour to your
pantry.
Oh my god.
It was my period stopped whileI was working with her.
It was, I look at photos ofmyself now from that last day,
(24:39):
because I took the like theafter photo, and I look awful,
gaunt, awful.
So anyway, all of this is tosay that that was to answer your
question, that was the momentwhere I realized F this.
I am out of diet culture.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
If this is what I have to gothrough to get to a certain
(25:01):
weight, and then only to be toldit's not enough, forget it.
I'm just gonna practiceexisting in my body the way that
it is.
It's COVID.
We're all at home wearing ourpajamas anyway, so forget it.
I'll just see what happens.
And what happened was I gainedback those 15 pounds.
I gained an additional 15pounds.
And then since then, I havereally not succumbed to any diet
(25:26):
culture stuff.
I've just been working on mypersonal relationship with food
and with eating and being intouch with my body and my hunger
cues.
And my body has taken up theshape that it always should have
been.
Michele Folan (25:38):
Yeah, you know, here's the other thing too, and
we don't have to, you know, getinto the whole long-term story
here.
But if we would just focus onhealth from the inside out, so
do what's right for our insides,it will start to reflect on the
outside.
(25:58):
And what I try to tell myclients, because most of them
are in midlife, I would say mostof my clients are probably 50
plus, if not 55 plus, that it'sreally about laying this healthy
foundation for your 80s,80-year-old self, your
90-year-old self.
(26:18):
And if you're doing that, ifyou're lifting weights and
you're eating the protein anddoing all that, and I know we we
talk about this all the time,you're you're doing you're doing
the stuff.
And you know, it's it's reallyabout your biomarkers and and
and those sorts of things.
It's not about trying to fitinto your genes that you wore in
(26:41):
2010.
That ship sails.
Jen Butler (26:44):
Exactly.
Yep.
Just you know, you know, women,women who talk about being this
is what I love about us is thatI work with women who are like
in a stage of life right beforethe stage of life that you work
with them.
I feel like they just, youknow, it's like, come to me and
then go to Michelle and you'llbe all set.
Um, so the women that I so Istill teach fitness, I teach
strength training classes and uhrebounder classes on a little
(27:07):
miniature trampoline.
And so the women that I workwith at my fitness studio are
generally in their 30s and 40s,some are in their early 50s as
well.
And, you know, when they're inthere, especially the younger
ones and they're talking about,you know, they've got to get
their pre-baby body back.
I usually zip it because it'snot, you know, they're having
their conversations.
I'm not gonna insert myselfinto their conversations, but
(27:27):
I'll take a moment here to saywhat I wish I always said to
them, which is you can't getyour pre-baby body back because
you are in a post-baby body.
You have had a baby.
Your body forevermore is apost-baby body.
So instead of trying to becomethe body that you had, embrace
(27:50):
the body that you have now.
And as you said, work from theinside out.
Focus on connecting to yourbody now as it is now and doing
what you need to do for yourselfnow instead of trying to be
what you used to be because yousimply are not.
You are someone who has givenbirth.
Your body has changed.
You know, for the women youwork with, it's like you are now
(28:13):
in menopause.
You're you can't get yourpre-menopausal body back or
what, you know, like you justyou can't.
You are in a different body.
So embrace it, connect to it.
Michele Folan (28:25):
You know, I'm getting ready to do the season
changeover of my closets.
Yes, yes.
Right?
And and you it's hoodie season.
I'm so excited.
I know it it was 50 somedegrees this morning.
There are things in my closetthat I know darn well will never
fit me again.
(28:45):
They're just not going tobecause my body has changed.
Shoot, it's and it's it's okayto hang on to that stuff, but
just have that realisticexpectation that maybe they'll
they're not gonna fit.
And it it's it it may free yoursoul to get rid of some of
those things.
So I'm just that's just mylittle aside.
Jen Butler (29:08):
Exactly.
It's it's about just, you know,giving yourself that grace and
just meeting yourself where youare.
You know, one of the firstthings I always say when I start
a fitness class and we're justdoing the active stretch to warm
up is I say to everybody, takethis time to connect to your
body because we are constantlytold that we need to be
different, look different, andand disconnect from our bodies.
(29:31):
You know, diet culturedisconnects you from your body
and your hunger cues.
Drinking disconnects you fromyour body because it numbs your
brain.
And so I always say toeverybody, just get into your
body, like put your own body on,like a skin, you know, really
get in there and connect andfeel how you are feeling today.
Not how you felt yesterday, nothow you want to feel, how you
(29:54):
are feeling right now in thismoment.
I think that that connection isso important and just.
Accepting and appreciatingwhere you are.
Michele Folan (30:03):
Yeah.
You know, I need to ask youthis.
Was there a chapter or asection in the book that was
particularly hard for you towrite or was, or maybe healing?
Jen Butler (30:16):
Well, most of the book was.
Okay.
Because it was a lot of, it wasrevisiting childhood trauma and
really aspects of my childhoodthat I couldn't even name as
trauma until I wrote the bookand thought that was traumatic
and it's okay.
So yeah, there were manymoments of the book that I that
(30:36):
I wrote that were very hard towrite.
And I initially glossed oversome things.
And I worked with two editorsduring my writing process.
And I am forever grateful tothem because they both said to
me at different stages of theprocess, okay, this scene, you
really need to go there.
You can't just gloss over thisbecause it's not gonna, no one's
(30:57):
gonna connect with it.
They're gonna, your readers aregonna be able to tell that
you're just glossing over it.
You really need to go there.
And I would say the things thatwere hardest for me to write,
oh gosh, I mean, a lot of mydrinking stuff was very hard for
me to write.
There was one hangover that Ihad, it was really the first
time where I was, I was sick.
(31:19):
And it was the first time mykids saw me that ill from
drinking the night before.
And I had to cover up for it.
My husband had to cover for me.
It was just an awfulexperience.
And writing about that andwriting the, I'm like closing my
(31:39):
eyes as I'm telling you thisbecause it is, it's, it's, it
was really hard to do.
And it's even hard for me tosay it now, but writing the
dialogue between me and my kidsthat morning when I woke up and
they were like fresh face andbeing so cute, and and I'm there
in bed, like reeking of alcoholand trying to pretend that I
(31:59):
didn't feel horrible.
And scenes like that were very,very challenging for me to
write.
And and some other stuff too,that was very challenging.
Some stuff in my sex life thathappened that was very hard that
we don't have to get into here.
But I'll tell you, writingthrough all of that was the most
healing thing I have ever done.
And I have been in therapy.
(32:21):
I'm in therapy now.
I have an amazing therapist.
Um, I've done some inner childwork with a coach, which I
actually talk about in the book.
And all of that has beenhealing as well.
But the most healing thing I'veever done has been writing this
book and going back to thosescenes, putting myself back into
my childhood self, into myadolescent self, my early
(32:42):
motherhood self, writing my waythrough it, and then getting to
the point in the book where Ihave processed all of that and I
embrace who I am now.
The most healing thing I'veever done, for sure.
Michele Folan (32:54):
I want to destigmatize the therapy thing.
You brought up let's do it.
Yeah, you you brought up havinga therapist, and I think this
is a great segue.
You know, I don't know whypeople find it so hard to admit
or to even seek you know,therapy.
Jen Butler (33:15):
Thoughts on that?
It's it's really too bad.
Well, my thoughts are that theworld would be a better place if
everyone was in therapy.
And finding my therapist, Istarted working with my
therapist.
It's been almost a year.
I went to her last October, andit was right as so I finished
my manuscript last December.
So I started seeing a therapistfor the last two months that I
(33:39):
was writing my manuscript.
And this book would not be whatit is if I had not started
therapy and really given myselfthis that safe space to access
parts of myself that I then wasable to put into the book.
I adore my therapist.
She is amazing.
(34:00):
If she were, if she were herein this interview, she would
say, like, Jen, you're the onedoing all the work.
You're the one doing all thework.
But really, she creates for mea safe space where I can just
have time to process thingswithout judgment, without guilt.
I can just show up exactly as Iam and work through things in a
(34:25):
way that you just can't whenyou're on your own and
distracted by what's going on inyour everyday life.
Yeah.
And she also is very gifted inthat she's able to draw
parallels.
So I'll come into her sometimeswith just, you know, four
different anecdotes.
I'll be like, here's whathappened this week, and I'll
tell her all this stuff.
And then she is able to likedraw out these parallels between
(34:48):
these different stories andoffer me that that just like
missing piece where I realize,like, oh, that's why these
different things that happenedhave been weighing on me.
You know, things frommotherhood and partnership and
professional work, it they alltie together.
And that's one beautiful thingabout therapy.
(35:08):
When you find a good therapistand you have to find a good one,
and that can take a lot ofwork.
Because I've had some, I've hadsome stinkers as well.
Some therapists I should havebroken up with way sooner than I
did.
Um, but when you find the rightperson and it's the right fit,
it is just the most beautiful,healing, empowering experience.
Michele Folan (35:31):
This morning I was reading an article about
meno divorce.
Ooh.
And I was reading it to myhusband.
He's looking at me like, areyou trying to tell me something?
I'm like, no, honey, you'restuck with me.
But I often think that womenget to this place in life where
maybe they haven't rediscoveredthemselves yet, or maybe they
(35:54):
have.
Maybe they are starting to rerediscover themselves, whether
it's, you know, the kids haveleft the nest, whatever, and
they're starting to think, uh, Ithis isn't really what I want
for the next 20 years.
And maybe if if we were alittle more inclined to seek
(36:18):
therapy, help, whatever, maybefewer of us would get into this
conundrum of I'm married to thisperson, I this is not, you
know, what I signed up for.
Jen Butler (36:33):
Yep.
Michele Folan (36:34):
And, you know, I just thought that was so
interesting that this thisarticle about meno divorce
really shows that women in thatthat age group, so kind of my
age group, are the ones that areseeking divorce.
And I, you know, it's just partof this whole rediscovery thing
is that women are finally maybefiguring things out for
(36:56):
themselves that they've keptstifled all those years.
Jen Butler (36:59):
Yes.
I completely agree with that.
And I think it really there areperiods of transition in our
lives as women where all of thisstuff just kind of comes to a
head, right?
Like for me, it's thetransition from early motherhood
to what I call mid-motherhood.
So for me, that was my son, myyounger child, my son, starting
(37:20):
kindergarten.
So both kids got into school,were in full-time school.
And therefore I was out of thenursery school slog and all
that, both kids in schoolfull-time.
That was, and that was when Istarted stopping drinking
because I got to this point andI thought, okay, I now have all
this time back.
What am I doing with my life?
(37:40):
Like, let me look at things andand okay, well, alcohol's got
to get figured out.
So I think it's true.
There are just these phases inour lives, whether it's early
motherhood to mid-motherhood,mid-motherhood to empty nest,
you know, perimenopause tomenopause, um, where we have
it's we have kind of like areckoning.
(38:01):
You know, I call it likeself-spelunking, you know,
because that's that's how itfelt for me.
Like I just was sort of likeself-spelunking, like going
inside, getting in there, goingdeep into my guts and thinking
about how I want to show up, andthen coming to terms with the
fact that I was not showing upthe way I want to show up.
And that can be very scary.
(38:22):
And then doing thatindividually, but also in a
partnership, I mean, it's very,very complex.
And I totally agree thattherapy, whether it's individual
therapy or couples counseling,is a great step to take, you
know, proactively instead ofreactively.
But if you end up doing itreactively, that's also okay
because at least you're inthere.
Michele Folan (38:43):
Yeah.
So you kind of went at thisyour way.
You quit drinking and then theball started rolling in your
self-discovery.
Yes.
How do you suggest women whoare they're stuck?
Whether they're 45 or they're65, they feel stuck.
How do they start?
(39:04):
Where's the what's the firststep?
Jen Butler (39:06):
Uh, I would say I love this question so much.
And it's, I wish it was a, youknow, I want everyone who feels
stuck to hear this.
So I think you need to try yourbest, because this is hard, to
kind of zoom out of your lifeand look down onto your life and
(39:27):
think, what is happening herethat's not serving me?
Is there something, is theresome area of this?
In in my coaching practice, Ido an exercise called the life
circle, where it's almost like alike a trivial pursuit pie, you
know, and you and you break acircle up into different pie
pieces of your life.
So professional, you know,motherhood, partnership,
(39:48):
individual goals, hobbies,community, whatever kind of
makes up your life circle as yousee it.
And then you look at yourcircle and you think, how
fulfilling are each of thesepieces of the pie?
And for me, that was reallyhelpful in my own journey.
And I think it's just reallyhelpful to kind of do that.
(40:11):
Like take a survey and you'llsee it.
If you take that time to zoomout, look at your life, you will
see the if you let yourself,you will see the area where
something's not going on.
You know, maybe yourpartnership is great, maybe your
relationship with your kids isgreat and you're feeling really
good about who you are as aparent, but maybe your
(40:34):
professional life is not servingyou and you need to make a job
change, or you need to go backto work, or you need to retire,
or whatever it may be.
And once you identify that areathat is keeping you stuck and
holding you back, then you haveto be brave enough to do the
work to unstick yourself.
Michele Folan (40:55):
Yeah, because this is my mantra, and this was
one of my five pillars.
Staying stuck because you fearchange is the scariest
proposition of all.
Jen Butler (41:08):
Yes.
Yes.
And it's also a choice, right?
Staying stuck is a choice.
It is not happening by default,it is not happening to you.
You are choosing to stay stuck.
And people are gonna hear thatand be like, not they're gonna
want to tell me to, you know, bequiet.
(41:29):
Um because that can be reallyhard to hear.
unknown (41:34):
Yeah.
Jen Butler (41:35):
But it's true.
That was a choice.
I I that is a choice.
I I chose to continue drinking.
It didn't just happen to me.
Nobody took a bottle of wineand poured it down my throat.
I chose to drink, I chose tonot change my relationship with
alcohol until I zoomed out,looked at myself, and thought,
(41:56):
my relationship with alcohol isreally holding me back.
And it's something that I'vegot to address.
And then I made the choice toaddress it.
But in the meantime, it's notlike it was happening by
default.
I was choosing to not createchange.
Michele Folan (42:11):
You know, I know we talk about alcohol a lot on
the podcast, and I don't makeapologies for that.
And the reason we talk aboutalcohol a lot is because I've
had my own epiphany around myrelationship with alcohol.
But also because in mycoaching, I see where alcohol
(42:34):
really pulls women down.
And I figure if the women thatI coach have issues, then I know
my listeners are alsostruggling with that tug of war
around that nightly glass or twoof wine or whatever you choose
(42:54):
as your poison.
And I love when people like JenButler are brave and they can
come forward and say, Hey, thiswas bad.
This was bad for my life, but Imade this choice.
I chose me.
Yes.
(43:15):
I chose me over alcohol.
And for anyone that has triedto quit, you know full well that
it is not, it's not easy.
And so kudos, Jen, for just notjust sharing your story about
(43:37):
alcohol, but just your yourstory in general, because I
think of all the women out therethat are listening right now
who are nodding their heads,going, yeah, yeah, I get it, I
get it.
And I want to talk about yourbook, Mom Rediscovered.
And I want people to get thebook, but think of the women in
(44:02):
your life who would benefit fromhearing Jen's story.
And and even if you may not, itmay not resonate a hundred
percent with everyone, everyaspect of it, it's really the
theme here is stepping out andnot being afraid of basically
(44:27):
self-care.
Yeah.
Jen Butler (44:30):
Yeah.
I love what you just said aboutchoosing you, you know, making
that active choice to chooseyourself.
And you have to, you have topractice doing that.
Practice is one of my favoritewords, and you have to do it
again and again and again.
It's not just like you're gonnado you're one and done, right?
It's practicing choosingyourself every day, multiple
(44:52):
times of a day in multiple ways.
And it's not selfish, it is notselfish.
It's vital.
It really is.
And when and when I start,whenever I still get like little
pangs of guilt.
And I always try to think aboutmy daughter and my son too, but
especially my daughter, and tothink about, you know, do I want
(45:15):
her at age almost 45 notchoosing herself?
Heck no! I want her choosingherself.
I want her choosing herself nowand always.
I want her putting herselffirst.
I want her preserving herselfso she can show up for other
people and learning to take careof herself and trusting that by
(45:37):
prioritizing herself, she willbe able to better show up for
other people in her life.
Michele Folan (45:44):
And it's such an important point because I think
so often women think of, youknow, it's selfish.
I, you know, putting myselffirst, that just sounds so
selfish.
But at the end of the day,we're only going to be better
for other people.
And you know what?
I I think that that's a greatthing.
Jen Butler (46:04):
Yep.
Choosing yourself and andchoosing to take up space.
And that was one thing Irealized when I when I stopped
drinking, but also when I quitdiet culture.
So really, you know, that thatpiece also is so important.
I know we talk about thedrinking a lot, but you know,
the subtitle of my book is MyMidlife Breakup with Drinking
and Diet Culture, because theyboth were such important
(46:26):
breakups in my life.
And they both, both of thosethings made me feel so small and
made me want to just shut downand be quiet and go in my little
box and stay in my little box.
And now that I have broken outof that box, I feel so much more
(46:48):
myself.
And I'm just so much morecontent.
I really, you know, and just atpeace with myself.
That you use the phrase tug ofwar.
And that is so, that's such aperfect phrase for that
cognitive dissonance thathappens, not just with alcohol,
but also with food and and allthe rest of it, right?
(47:09):
This feeling of like, oh, Ishouldn't do that, and but I'm
going to, and the more we canfree ourselves from that
cognitive dissonance and justshow up as ourselves and and
embrace who we are, ugh, it'sjust so much more, you know,
peaceful.
Life is just so much morepeaceful and happier.
(47:30):
Absolutely.
Michele Folan (47:31):
All right.
Book launch official date isOctober 21st.
All right.
So this podcast will air rightaround that time.
And we're I know I'm too.
We're gonna do a really funbookstore event together in
Cincinnati where I live thisNovember.
Can't wait.
And what are you most lookingforward to about connecting live
(47:56):
with readers?
Jen Butler (47:57):
Oh my gosh.
Well, first of all, I justcan't wait to meet you,
Michelle, and give you such abig hug.
I think it is really magicalwhen women come together and
just show up honest, open,authentic as we are.
That's one reason why I loveteaching fitness and why I am so
(48:18):
excited to go on my book tour.
Because I cannot wait to justbe there like, hey, I wrote this
book.
You know, there's all thesescenes where I'm just like such
a hot mess, but here I amholding my book in my hands.
Like, what do you, what do youwant to do?
Like, what are you up to?
What's your journey?
And also just to hear, I mean,I've already gotten such amazing
feedback from my advancedreaders about aspects of the
(48:41):
book that that really um thatthey really connected with.
And I'm just, I can't wait tohear those stories in person, to
hear from people, you know, I Ithought it was just me, but it
isn't.
Now I realize it's not, or, youknow, you went through this.
It reminded me of when I wentthrough this in my life.
And I I just I can't wait.
And I can't, I learned so muchfrom my coaching clients, my
(49:05):
fitness clients, and now I justcan't wait for everything that
I'm going to learn from myreaders.
Michele Folan (49:11):
Yeah.
This is gonna be a lot of fun.
Where can listeners pre-orderthe book, Mom Rediscovered, and
then find you your Substack andfollow you online?
Jen Butler (49:23):
Yes.
Okay, so here's all the info.
You can pre-order my book, MomRediscovered, at Amazon, also at
Barnes and Noble, which isBN.com, and also at
bookshop.org.
Another great thing to do is togo to your local bookstore and
pre-order it through them.
They will be able to order itfor you, and then that helps get
the book on their radar, whichis also really helpful for me.
(49:45):
So any of those ways, whateveryou want to do, is great.
And I am very appreciative ofall of that.
You can also find me onInstagram and TikTok.
My handle is at Jen ButlerRights.
And so you can find me there.
I'm on those platforms all thetime.
My book website ismomrediscovered.com.
So that has all the informationabout my book and where to
(50:08):
order it.
It also has a free book clubkit that I completely nerded out
designing and creating.
I love that project so much.
I love a worksheet.
So this is like a whole thingof worksheets.
So that is available as a freedownload on my website.
And if you want me to be aguest at your book club, I would
love to do that.
So there's also a link on mywebsite that connects you to a
(50:30):
request form if you would likeme to be at your book club.
Oh, my dogs are chirping upagain.
Isn't that great?
Michele Folan (50:35):
Oh, I know.
Jen Butler (50:36):
I was like, okay, they're like, okay, so much dogs
for coming on at the end here.
Michele Folan (50:41):
There's like mom, that's enough.
Jen Butler (50:43):
Um, and then my Substack is best mom never.
And that link is umsubstack.com slash Jen Butler or
something like that.
But just search for best momnever on Substack and you can
join that community there.
Michele Folan (50:55):
Perfect, Jen.
This is terrific.
I look forward to seeing you inNovember.
Thanks for being here today.
Jen Butler (51:01):
Thank you so much for having me back, Michele, and
thanks for everything.
Michele Folan (51:06):
Thank you for listening.
Please rate and review thepodcast where you listen.
And if you'd like to join theAsking for a Friend community,
click on the link in the shownotes to sign up for my weekly
newsletter where I share midlifewellness and fitness tips,
insights, my favorite finds, andrecipes.
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