February 22, 2025 • 56 mins
Explore the groundbreaking insights of Dr. Steven Gundry, a leading authority in the field of gut health, as we uncover the fascinating connection between your gut and your brain. Join me, Janet Walker, on Healthy Cells, Healthy You, where we examine how the gut microbiome impacts everything from your mood and emotions to addictive behaviors and food choices. Dr. Gundry's revelations challenge the traditional understanding of mental health by focusing on the microbiome's role in shaping personality and desires, likening it to a tropical rainforest that thrives on diversity and balance.
Tune in to uncover how you can harness the power of the microbiome to achieve optimal health and well-being.
You can order your copy of Dr. Gundry’s “Gut-Brain Paradox” wherever books are sold, like Target, Barnes & Noble or Amazon.
Listen to the Dr. Gundry Podcast (Youtube channel): youtube.com/drgundry
To visit Dr. Gundry’s wellness brand: GundryMD.com
Together, we'll build Healthy Cells, and a Healthy You!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Janet Walker (00:01):
Recently, I had the pleasure of interviewing an
internationally known doctor forthe Better Wellness Podcast.
His research has helpedthousands of patients heal
through diet.
We took a deep dive into hisnewest book, the Gut-Brain
Paradox.
So stay tuned to hear this veryspecial one-hour episode of
(00:22):
Healthy Cells Healthy you.
Welcome to Healthy Cells.
Healthy you.
Welcome to Healthy Cells,healthy you.
I'm your host, janet Walker.
I've been working in thehealthcare community for over 30
years and for 20 of those yearsI've also worked as a writer
and producer for theaward-winning national PBS
health information televisionshows, american Health Journal
(00:44):
and Innovations in Medicine.
You can watch current episodesof Innovations in Medicine on
your local PBS channel or youcan stream our programs on the
American Health Channel, theBetter Health Channel and TV
Healthy Kids.
I'm also a new host for theaward-winning podcast Better
Wellness.
For the award-winning podcastBetter Wellness, our very
(01:06):
special guest today is the oneand only Dr Steven Gundry.
Dr Gundry is the director ofthe International Heart and Lung
Institute in Palm Springs andthe founder and director of the
Center for Restorative Medicinein Palm Springs and Santa
Barbara, California.
After a distinguished career asa heart transplant surgeon and
(01:26):
a professor and chairman ofcardiothoracic surgery at Loma
Linda University, dr Gundrychanged his focus to curing
modern diseases via dietarychanges.
His best-selling books includeGut Check, unlocking the Keto
Code, the Energy Paradox and thePlant Paradox.
He has written more than 300articles published in
(01:49):
peer-reviewed journals on usingdiet and supplements to
eliminate disease, among them,heart disease, diabetes and
autoimmune diseases.
He is the host of thetop-ranked nutrition podcast,
the Dr Gundry Podcast, and thefounder of Gundry MD, a wellness
brand.
Today, we're talking about hisnewest book, the Gut-Brain
(02:11):
Paradox.
Hello, Dr Gundry, welcome toBetter Wellness.
We're so happy that you wereable to join us today and I'm
honored to talk to you aboutyour newest book.
Well, thanks for having me.
Great to be here.
Our mutual friend, wellnessexpert, David Delrahim, has
wonderful things to say aboutthe book, so I was really
looking forward to reading itand I'm so glad I did Now.
(02:34):
You've authored manybestselling books focused on
food-based health interventions.
What motivated you to write thisbook and were there any
surprises when you wereresearching for it?
There was a lot.
I try to write my next book asa follow-up to the previous book
(02:55):
, which was Gut Check.
It was becoming abundantlyclear, particularly in gut check
, about the incrediblesophisticated communication
system that we've been able todecipher between the microbiome
(03:21):
or the holobiome.
The microbiome or the holobiomeas I call it, and our emotions,
our brain health, our brainaging, addiction, food choices.
(03:51):
And with each passing yearwe're getting more and more
nuanced in how muchcommunication there is between
the microbiome and our brain andhow much control is exerted on
our brain by the microbiome.
And so I said let's go downinto those rabbit holes.
And, like I write about in thebook, there were lots of
surprises that awaited me Anymore.
Not surprised by much, but lotsof surprises in this book,
(04:13):
particularly, I think, in termsof our personalities and our
food choices and, maybe mostimportantly, our addictive
behaviors and how muchassociation there is between the
gut microbiome and all of that.
(04:34):
So in your previous books youtaught readers how to reverse
disease and improve health bypreventing or repairing leaky
gut, and in this book you go astep further and delve into the
role and importance of themicrobiome on brain health.
So let's give our listeners abasic education about the
microbiome and leaky gut.
(04:55):
First, what is it?
Starting with the microbiome?
Dr. Steven Gundry (05:00):
Well, so the microbiome is this collection of
organisms that most peopleassociate with bacteria that
live in our intestinal tract,and there's a hundred trillion
bacteria that live in our colonalone.
(05:22):
In our colon alone, that's likeeight times more bacteria in
our colon than there are treeson earth, just to give you an
idea.
Janet Walker (05:35):
Wow, that's a lot.
Dr. Steven Gundry (05:36):
That's a lot, and that doesn't even mention
the thousand species of bacteriathat live in our mouth, the 700
species of bacteria that livein our skin.
We even have a bacteria cloudaround us and so collectively,
these are all called theholobiome, but the microbiome.
(05:59):
Really, we didn't know howcomplex it was up until the
Human Microbiome Project wasstarted in 2006 and finished in
2017.
Figuring out who lives down,there was one thing.
Figuring out what those guyswere doing down, there was
(06:21):
another.
What we now realize is that thisis akin to a tropical
rainforest, and a tropicalrainforest obviously there's
lots of diverse animals, plants,insects, bugs, et cetera all
(06:43):
knit together in an ecologicalsystem and kind of each member
of this community is dependenton multiple other members for
their survival, and what we nowknow is that we can actually
apply the same ecologicalprinciples to looking at our
microbiome, much like we look ata tropical rainforest.
(07:07):
And, simplistically, the morediverse our microbiome, the more
different members of ourmicrobiome good guys and bad
guys the healthier we are andthe healthier our brain is and
(07:27):
our thought processes are.
On the other hand, the morekind of desert wasteland rather
than a tropical rainforest wehave in our gut, the worse off
we are in terms of our guthealth and our mental health, in
terms of our gut health and ourmental health, and so that's a
kind of starting premise ofunderstanding the microbiome.
Janet Walker (07:56):
And so we learn from the book that it's not just
our bodies that are affected bythe microbiome.
Dr. Steven Gundry (08:00):
How does it influence our brain function and
mental health?
Well, it takes a while to wrapour head around the fact that,
(08:31):
sadly, or good news.
So much of our thinkingprocesses, so much of our
emotions, so much of our desiresisn't actually coming from here
.
It's actually coming from thewants and needs of our
microbiome.
And that's hard for advancedcreatures like us who think, you
know, we're the smartestwhatever existed.
But it's amazing how theselittle one-cell creatures can
have such a profound effect onus.
But let me put it this way,it's akin to who's actually
(08:53):
driving the bus the bus driversor the passengers and from a
bacteria standpoint, thismicrobiome is actually our
largest organ that actuallyexists in us, and we're a
symbiotic community.
That means we do stuff for themand they do stuff for us.
(09:14):
And as ourgreat-great-grandparents
probably knew, as I say, ourgreat-great-grandparents ate
whole foods and they ate thosefoods whole.
And in eating whole foods whole, yeah, we got sugars out of it,
(09:37):
we got proteins out of it, wegot fats out of it, but there
was a lot left over and theseinclude prebiotic fiber and that
would, if you will, trickledown to our microbiome, who
needed those foods to flourishand eat.
(09:57):
And as long as they weregetting their part of the
bargain, everything was justfine.
Fast forward to now, we havemostly processed and
ultra-processed foods.
We've removed pretty much allthe stuff that our microbiome
(10:18):
used to get, and so ourmicrobiome can hear us chewing
up there, they hear usswallowing, they know food's on
the way, and then nothingarrives and they go what the
heck?
I know he's eating, I can see, Ican hear food.
Nothing's coming down for me,for me, and they literally send
(10:45):
text messages to the brain.
To number one I know you'reeating, but you're not eating
enough, because I'm clearly notgetting it and my ancestors used
to, so go eat more.
Number two I am not satisfiedwith the things you're eating
(11:05):
and I'm hangry if we all knowthat expression and so it
actually totally changes ouroutlook.
A lot of the book is spenttrying to convince people about
how real this is and how ourmicrobiome, depending on who's
(11:25):
down there and depending on whatwe give them to eat, has
profound effects on our weight,on depression, on anxiety and
even addictions.
And the good news, despite allthat bad news, is that we now
know what they're looking forand we now know how to give them
(11:46):
the good stuff to make us feelgood.
Janet Walker (11:49):
I'm going to ask you a little more about that in
just a minute, but let's talk alittle bit about leaky gut, and
I'm sure many of our listenershave heard of it but don't
really know what it is and howit impacts our health.
So can you explain leaky gut?
What is it and what isdysbiosis?
Dr. Steven Gundry (12:08):
So again, if you have a functioning tropical
rainforest, you've got all thesemembers of the community that
are kind of dependent on eachother In dysbiosis.
It means basically that all thebalancing that goes on between
these different species isthrown off so that there's too
(12:33):
many bad guys and not enoughgood guys.
Now most people say, oh geez,we don't want any bad guys.
But that's actually not true.
You actually have to have abalance of good guys and bad
guys.
The example I like to use isYellowstone Park.
Many people may remember that afew years ago wolves in
(12:56):
Yellowstone Park were eradicated, because wolves are obviously
bad guys and we don't wantwolves running around eating elk
or whatever.
So wolves were eradicated inYellowstone Park.
Well, lo and behold, whathappened was that wolves predate
(13:16):
on elk.
Elk no longer had a naturalpredator, so elk good guys
overgrew predator.
So elk good guys overgrew andthey got hungry and they ate all
the little saplings.
And, interestingly enough,beavers have to have saplings to
(13:40):
build beaver dams, and sobeavers didn't have any saplings
, so beavers died off.
And without beaver dams youdidn't have fish in the ponds
and next thing we know we didn'thave raccoons that were eating
the fish, et cetera, et cetera.
So the ecosystem completely gotunbalanced by eliminating a bad
guy.
So when they reintroducedwolves back in Yellowstone Park,
(14:05):
it took a number of years tolevel out, but the bad guy was
necessary to keep everythingelse in balance.
And so it's the same way withour gut microbiome.
It's this balance, or what Icall in the book, the terroir or
terrain, that's the mostimportant, and as long as that
(14:29):
terrain is rich and balanced,we're in great shape.
So that's dysbiosis and sadly,we can actually measure who's in
there, we can do counts, we canknow what they make, what they
don't make, what's lacking.
So to answer your first part ofyour question, what the heck is
(14:52):
leaky gut?
It's tossed around.
First of all, it is notpseudoscience.
A professor who's now atHarvard, who's a pediatric
gastroenterologist, by the nameof Alessio Fasano, figured out
how leaky gut happens, how tomeasure it, and it's not
(15:18):
pseudoscience.
We measure it every day inblood tests.
Simplistically, the lining ofour gut, from our mouth all the
way down to our rear end, is thesame surface area.
If we laid it out flat as atennis court, probably two
tennis courts.
So when we're watching the BNPParibas Indian Wells tennis
(15:40):
tournament in a few weeks, pnpParibas Indian Wells tennis
tournament.
In a few weeks there's a tenniscourt inside of us, a surface
area.
Now we have a design flaw.
The lining of our gut is onlyone cell thick and so everything
we swallow, all the bacteria,are separated from us, the rest
(16:03):
of our body, by only one cell.
Now those cells are heldtogether with glue, if you will.
That are called tight junctions, and most of us are old enough
to remember a kid's game calledRed Rover, red Road.
Janet Walker (16:21):
I remember that one.
Dr. Steven Gundry (16:22):
You know it's now illegal in school.
It's too dangerous.
Anyhow, remember, we all lockedarms and the kids came running
across and we all squealed andright, your arms broke.
So think of these cells ashaving crossed arms, all locked
together.
So we now know that there are anumber of compounds, including
(16:45):
lectins, which I've written alot about, that want to attach
to the wall of the gut and theymake a chemical that actually
breaks that tight junction, ormultiple tight junctions.
So now we've literally got agap.
Now we've literally got a gap.
Now.
So what?
Well, on the other side of thiswall, 80% of all of our white
(17:10):
blood cells are standing guardright there.
Why are they all there?
Because this is where mischiefcan come across and they want to
be ready for eating whatevercomes around.
That would happenintermittently in the past, and
we had some really good systemsto make sure it didn't happen.
(17:32):
We had a great gut microbiome,we had a lot of mucus, et cetera
, et cetera, and if somebody gotacross the white cell and said,
oops, that's a bad guy, I'mgoing to eat him, let's patch
the hole Now, because we don'thave a great gut microbiome,
because a lot of the microbiomeare bad guys, and not a lot of
(17:56):
good guys.
This leaky gut is happeningliterally 24 hours a day, 365
days a year.
So now our white blood cellsare basically overrun.
They're overwhelmed by all thistrouble coming across the gut.
So it's not just oh my gosh, weneed more troops down here.
(18:21):
These guys are getting past usand we're going to send messages
up to the brain to fortifyyourselves.
All hands on deck, protect thisimportant structure, this
(18:42):
important structure.
There's an immune system in ourbrain that I talk about, called
the glial cells, which are thebrain's, the neuron's,
bodyguards, and they spring intoaction and they actually
believe it or not, kind of pullup the drawbridges on the castle
because the hordes are comingand they try to protect the
neuron at all costs.
The hordes are coming and theytry to protect the neuron at all
(19:04):
costs.
In the process of doing that,they actually sever the
connections of one neurontalking to another.
And no wonder we have brain fogand memory issues.
And the book details howAlzheimer's comes about,
parkinson's comes about andsimple memory loss, and it's all
related to what's actuallygoing down in the gut in the
(19:26):
first place.
Janet Walker (19:27):
Interesting.
You just mentioned Alzheimer'sand addiction.
Most people don't associate guthealth with mental health,
which is one reason the book isso enlightening mental health,
which is one reason the book isso enlightening.
What specific bacteria areassociated with depression and
how do they affectneurotransmitter levels?
Dr. Steven Gundry (19:47):
So that's a great question.
One of the things we've knownfor a long time that there's a
amino tryptophan that isactually manufactured by gut
bacteria, and gut bacteria thenuse tryptophan to make a lot of
(20:09):
the feel-good hormones like.
We'll use serotonin, forexample.
And serotonin a lot of peoplehave heard about serotonin
because it's the feel-goodhormone, but also a lot of
people are on antidepressants,and most of these
antidepressants are what arecalled serotonin reuptake
(20:31):
inhibitors, ssris.
We're taught that normally inour brain we use serotonin as a
neurotransmitter and then webreak it down when we don't need
it anymore, and these compoundssupposedly work by stopping
(20:55):
that breakdown.
So there's more serotonin leftin the brain and you feel
happier.
Well, if that is actually howthey work, then one would think
that I could swallow anantidepressant today and
tomorrow.
I'd be happy because I now haveplenty of serotonin, because
(21:16):
I'm not breaking it down.
As anyone who's taken theseantidepressants knows, that
isn't what happens.
It can take a month or more tonotice a change in depression.
So you go, what the heck?
Well, now we know that thesedrugs work by actually changing
(21:37):
the microbiome into a morediverse microbiome that in turn,
makes more tryptophan and makesmore serotonin, and that
doesn't happen overnight.
It takes weeks to make thatchange.
So what we used to think wassomething that was happening up
(22:00):
here is now happening down here.
What's equally troublesome isthese particular bacteria are
incredibly sensitive to anherbicide that all of us have
heard of called Roundup, and itsactive ingredient is glyphosate
(22:20):
.
Now, glyphosate is worthknowing.
Glyphosate was patented as anantibiotic by Monsanto, not as a
weed killer, and glyphosateactually specifically kills off
the tryptophan pathway bacteria,but it spares other bad guys.
(22:47):
So every time we eatglyphosate-laden food and it's
in all of our brain products,and GMO has nothing to do with
it anymore Glyphosate is sprayedon all of our weed, all of our
corn, all of our oats, and we'reeating it every day, and so
(23:08):
we've literally killed off thosebacteria that make all the good
stuff in our guts.
So it's kind of a double whammy.
Janet Walker (23:18):
Is that why eliminating those food items
from our diet is helpful to ourgut.
Not just that we're eliminatingthe wheat or oats, but actually
the chemicals that they wereprocessed with.
Dr. Steven Gundry (23:33):
Yeah, you know, glyphosate roundup was
introduced in the mid-1970s andwe are surrounded by glyphosate
now.
I mean it's in California wines, for instance, it's in our
schoolyards, it's everywhere.
So one of the things that I'vebeen fascinated with through the
(23:58):
years is there's been a lot oflow-carb diets that have come
and go through the years theAtkins diet in the 70s, the
paleo diet, the carnivore dietis the latest iteration, the
high-protein diet.
And one of the things that wasinteresting in all of these
(24:19):
diets particularly like, I usethe Atkins diet when Atkins took
away all your carbohydrates, ofcourse it was mostly grain
products and sugars like fruit,and then as the program
progressed, you usually addedthese things back in and
invariably people's weight wouldstart going back up, and even
(24:40):
wheat belly the same way.
And then what?
What do you do?
Well, go back to phase one,take all these things away from
you know it's the evil carbsthat we're doing it.
Well, I have a lot of 80 of mypatients have autoimmune
diseases that end up seeing meand 94% of them go into
(25:00):
remission within nine months toa year, and a lot of these
people.
Then they go on vacation toEurope and they go to France or
they go to Italy and they can'thelp themselves.
They eat croissants andbaguettes and pizza and they
don't react.
Their stomachs feel great,their joints don't react, their
(25:35):
stomachs feel great, theirjoints don't hurt, their
psoriasis doesn't flare.
And they go I'm cured.
And they start having our breadand they start having our pizza
and they start having our cornand all of a sudden, within
weeks, they're on the phonegoing what the heck?
My psoriasis is back on myelbow.
What the heck?
My finger just swelled up.
What the heck?
(25:56):
I thought you cured me.
No, you encountered ourglyphosate-laden food again and
you didn't have it over inEurope because it's mostly
banned, and I write about thisin the book.
So just because you can havethese carbohydrates, these evil
things, over there, doesn't meanonce you're cured, you can
(26:20):
probably have them over here.
It's because of the presence ofglyphosate.
Janet Walker (26:24):
Wow, I wonder if our manufacturers will ever fix
that.
Probably not right.
Dr. Steven Gundry (26:30):
I doubt it.
I've said on other podcasts,unfortunately sickness is really
good for business.
Janet Walker (26:40):
That's a shame, but true.
Let me ask you this Isdysbiosis and leaky gut forever,
or can diet and lifestylechanges help improve both
physical and mental health?
Dr. Steven Gundry (26:53):
Oh, it's not forever, and that's the whole
purpose of this book.
It is fixable Now.
If you had asked me 25 yearsago how fast you could fix leaky
gut, I was a little naive and Ithought you could do it in a
couple weeks.
It usually takes most peoplenine months to a year to fully
(27:18):
seal their gut.
Now we can see it improve.
We measure this every threemonths, but we can see it
improve each time we measurethese tests.
So it's not like you're stuckfor nine months or a year, but
the improvement is measurable.
We can watch it.
(27:38):
We can watch the gut microbiomechange from month to month.
And the exciting thing and Ihave a lot of examples in the
book is that as this improvesthe depression, lifts the
Parkinson's symptoms subside theaddictive behaviors subside,
(28:01):
and that's what is so excitingSymptoms subside the addictive
behaviors subside, and that'swhat is so exciting.
I still see patients six days aweek, on the weekends, saturday
and Sunday.
I see them, and the reason I dothat is usually not a day goes
by that I get to witness what 30years ago I would have called a
miracle, but now it's.
(28:23):
If I don't see it, we're notdoing something right, and so,
yeah, it's just, it's reallyexciting to watch this happen.
Janet Walker (28:35):
Yeah, and I think, in part thanks to all your
previous books and earlierresearch, a lot of the general
public understands that there isa gut health connection, but
for most people I think this gutbrain connection is pretty new.
Can understanding that lead tobetter treatment options for
(28:57):
mental health disorders?
Dr. Steven Gundry (29:01):
treatment options for mental health
disorders.
Well, again, I think that's oneof the exciting things that I'm
excited about in this book inparticular, one of the things
that's challenging in any mentalhealth condition, in addiction,
is that the recidivism rate ishorrible.
The recidivism rate is horrible.
90% of addicts subside to theiraddiction again, despite
(29:28):
excellent treatment or treatmentover and over and over again.
And we talk about this in thebook and it's because we
actually, I think, are notaddressing the actual cause of
that, and that's the gutmicrobiome driving this behavior
.
And to me, the exciting thing isI don't think we have to blame
(29:52):
the way we blame that.
This is not you know, oh,you're a bad person because you
can't stay away from thesethings.
This is not.
You know, oh, you're a badperson because you can't stay
away from these things.
Or you know, you'repsychologically impaired because
you can't do these things.
It's actually coming from theroot problem is down in the gut.
(30:12):
And, again, the uplifting thingabout it is that these are
addressable issues, but we'vebeen addressing the wrong place.
We're trying to fix this and wehave to fix the gut.
Janet Walker (30:27):
In what ways does the communication between the
gut and the brain influencethings like our mood, cognition,
behavior, and what specificmechanisms are involved in this
interaction?
Dr. Steven Gundry (30:43):
Well, it's in two simple ways.
First of all, we now know thatthere are bacteria in the gut
that are associated with mood.
We've identified bacteria thatpredict a depressive personality
.
We've identified bacteria thatpredict an anxious personality.
(31:07):
You can take happy mice andfeed them stool from depressed
humans.
And how do you do that?
It turns out, mice love to eatpoop, it's just you know.
And these happy mice willbecome depressed.
(31:29):
And you can take depressed miceand feed them stool from happy
people and they'll become happy.
And that's just one example.
There's numerous other examplesof this.
For instance, we now know thata baby's personality has much to
(31:55):
do with the microbiome that isestablished at birth and in the
first one or two months of life,and so the good news for a
parent is, if you've got areally grouchy, colicky baby,
the odds are it's the microbiomethat's making that baby grouchy
(32:15):
and colicky and not a very goodbaby, rather than your baby's
just a bad baby.
Janet Walker (32:23):
Well, that explains why my two kids' babies
had such differentpersonalities.
One had a sensitive, colickystomach and one didn't.
Dr. Steven Gundry (32:30):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
And I have two daughters andthey're genetically very similar
but they're almost polaropposites in their mood and blah
, blah, blah and you go.
Well, she came out of the boxthat way.
She came out of the box and itturns out yeah, they came out
(32:51):
with that set of microbes andit's just fascinating that this
could occur.
Janet Walker (32:57):
Let me ask you a question that actually isn't on
my question list, but when youwere mentioning that the
poop-eating mice it brought itto mind In your book.
You talked a lot about fecaltransplants.
I've never heard that before.
Where is that performed and whogets that, and how does that
help someone?
(33:17):
So?
Dr. Steven Gundry (33:18):
fecal transplants.
They're not allowed in theUnited States because of the FDA
, unless under certainconditions, but in Europe,
particularly, they are used totreat C difficile.
They're used for a lot of otherthings, and I talk about fecal
transplants that have been usedin autistic kids and the results
(33:40):
are remarkable.
And there's even a study whereautistic children are given
fecal transplants in the form ofcapsules and they have a
hilarious name they're calledcrapsules crapsules and they
(34:09):
dramatically alter the autism inthese kids.
And so we now know that thesebacteria have far-reaching
effects on so many things thatwe thought had nothing to do
with.
You know, the brain like autism.
Janet Walker (34:20):
So do you think fecal transplants will ever be
FDA approved or part ofmainstream medicine in the
United States?
Dr. Steven Gundry (34:27):
The FDA for correct reasons.
You can't control everythingthat's coming in and at this
moment we don't know who all thebad guys are.
Are we bringing in viruses thatwe can't measure yet?
(34:49):
So I think at the moment it'llstill be investigational, but I
don't think we have to wait forthat.
We know now enough about whatthe good guys want to eat, what
the bad guys like, and the bookis okay.
We know all this now.
Here's how to not give the badguys what to eat, here's how to
(35:13):
give the good guys what to eat,and the rest of the book is.
But wait, it's not just givethese guys a bunch of prebiotics
and everything will be fine.
We now know that, to paraphraseHillary Clinton, it takes a
village and we may need an endproduct, like a short-chain
(35:34):
fatty acid called butyrate thata bunch of good guys make.
It's really important for us,but we didn't know that it would
take, like four other differentbacteria each making a product
that the next bacteria needed toeat, to make the next product
that the next bacteria needed toeat, to finally get to the
(35:54):
final guy who then makesbutyrate.
And we had no idea that it wasthat complex.
But again, it takes thisterrain, this tropical
rainforest, and we shouldn'thave been so naive.
And it's all in the book how toRebuild your Tropical
Rainforest.
Janet Walker (36:15):
So what practical steps do you recommend for
restoring gut health, and howcan these interventions
potentially improve our physicalwell-being and our mental
well-being and cognitivefunction?
Dr. Steven Gundry (36:28):
Well, number one here in Southern California,
when my patients walk throughthe door, 80% of them are
vitamin D deficient.
And you go, wait a minute.
We're in Southern California.
There's sun every day of theyear.
How could that be?
(36:48):
Well, we've used sunscreens andwe're so afraid of the sun we
cover up, we wear long-sleevedshirts in the sun, we wear a hat
in the sun and we're just veryvitamin D deficient.
So what?
Two things?
Number one we know the higheryour vitamin D level, the more
(37:10):
diverse your microbiome is, thebetter that tropical rainforest
is.
I mean, it's directcorrelations.
Number two we now know thatvitamin D is essential to keep
that wall of the gut intact andto repair any breaks in the gut.
Number three, which may be themost important, is that vitamin
(37:34):
D tells our white blood cells,our immune system, to calm down.
Don't get so excitable, getyour finger off the trigger.
And so it's a three-prong.
And it's amazing, 100% of mypatients with leaky gut and
(37:56):
autoimmune disease have lowvitamin D levels 100%.
So that's number one.
Number two I tell people that,yeah, I can heal your leaky gut
and yes, it's going to take us awhile to do that.
But if you keep swallowingrazor blades, you're just going
(38:18):
to slice it right back open.
Razor blades, that you're justgoing to slice it right back
open.
So that's why, among otherthings, I talk about lectins,
which are plant defense proteinsthat literally act like
swallowing razor blades.
Their job is to make theirpredator, us, not feel very good
in so many different ways, andwe just don't pay attention.
(38:45):
So, removing these offenders,getting a high vitamin D and
then fostering a more diversemicrobiome by using not only
fermented foods, which give someof the precursors for building
butyrate, but also giving theseguys the raw materials of
(39:09):
prebiotic fiber, that's how todo it and it's outlined in the
book and it's actually easier todo than people think.
For instance, an easy-to to usefermented food is vinegar.
Vinegar is an amazing fermentedfood.
Kefir, goat and sheep yogurtsare a great way to do it and,
(39:33):
fun fact, a traditionallycultured sausage, even
prosciutto, is a fermented foodand it's loaded with postbiotics
.
So great news.
You look at some of these superlong-lived societies in the
(39:56):
quote blue zones and theremarkable thing is these guys
almost all of these societieseat a lot of fermented foods in
the form of yogurts and in agedcheeses.
And, surprise, surprise,sausages and fermented meats
(40:17):
across the board and you go waita minute minute, those are all
bad for you.
Amen, that's, that's evil.
Well, it turns out that thesesocieties are eating fermented
animal products and, like thething that was stunning to me is
the.
The people with the longestlifespan, as a country usually
(40:44):
surprises people.
It's a little country betweenSpain and France called Andorra,
and Andorrians have a lifespanof like 90 years.
Yeah pretty nice.
And what do they do?
Well, they're sheep and goatherders and all they basically
(41:04):
eat is sheep and goat yogurtsand cheeses and sausages.
They have sausages forbreakfast, lunch and dinner and
you go.
How can they be the longestliving people?
You know they're eating badfood.
The thing that really, reallyshocked me years ago I presented
a paper at a nutritionconference in Toulouse, France.
(41:26):
Toulouse is famous for foiegras and famous for sausages.
Cassoulet is from Toulouse.
These guys eat what would seemto be the worst diet in the
world, if you wanted to designone.
And yet they have the lowestincidence of heart disease in
(41:48):
all of france.
And you go.
What the heck?
Well, remember we, we have to,we have to question conventional
wisdom.
And if conventional wisdom saysall these guys have heart
disease and they ought to diehorrible, painful, slow deaths,
(42:09):
how come they're doing this?
Well, it's this fermented foodthat they're eating, and I go
into that in detail in the book.
It's like son of a gun.
That in detail in the book.
It's like son of a gun.
Here's why what we thoughtmight be bad for you is probably
pretty doggone.
Janet Walker (42:27):
Good for you.
How interesting.
Now, the book is full ofwonderful research, clinical
studies and real patientexamples, but it also gives
readers two detailed options fordietary changes to restore
their gut and improve theirhealth.
Are these short-term protocolsto heal the gut or are they
(42:48):
long-term lifestyle changes?
Dr. Steven Gundry (42:51):
Well, of the two programs, the first one is
really what I use in my clinicsfor the vast majority of my
patients.
It's what was in the plantparadox and gut check and it
works for the vast majority ofpeople.
But I see some real hardcoretroubled people, particularly
(43:17):
suffering from addiction ormental illnesses or Alzheimer's
or Parkinson's, and these peopleI've found through the years
that their gut wall is such inbad shape that they're quite
intolerant to almost all plantcompounds, regardless how good
(43:41):
they might be for you or me.
People accuse me of being thefather of the carnivore diet,
because if you take myrecommendations to the nth
degree, then all plant compoundswish you harm, because you're
(44:04):
their predator and we ought toget rid of all plant compounds.
Not so fast, but I foundthrough the years that these
people seem to be far moresensitive to plant compounds in
general.
And so in the last program inthe book called the Chicken and
(44:24):
the Sea, I basically have mypatients eliminate all plant
material, all fruits.
My patients eliminate all plantmaterial, all fruits and
basically use pastured chicken,wild fish, wild shellfish and
fermented primarily sheep andgoat milk, as well as fermented
(44:46):
meats like prosciutto, forexample, or a true fermented
sausage and the turnaround inthese people using that is
really nothing short ofremarkable, and I profile a few
of these people in the book.
Do I think that's a long-termstrategy?
(45:06):
No, I think this is anintensive care to get the gut
wall healed and then let'sreintroduce some of these actual
beneficial plant compounds.
I'm a confirmed plant predator,but you got to know who your
friends are and you got to knowwho doesn't like you very much,
(45:27):
but it's been remarkable.
Now why not put them on anall-beef diet?
We really don't have the time todo that today, but beef, lamb,
pork and non-fermented milk havea really mischievous sugar
molecule that's called NU5GC,capital G, capital G.
(45:48):
We have a sugar molecule thatwe share with fish and poultry
called NU5AC, capital A.
The molecules are virtuallyidentical, except for one
(46:08):
molecule of oxygen.
When we eat NU5GC containingfoods, our immune system makes
aggressive antibodies to it.
We hate it.
System makes aggressiveantibodies to it.
We hate it.
Our brain hates NU5GC and oneof the things we've learned now
is that when you eat NU5GC, itcauses leaky gut, it activates
your immune system and it causesleaky brain and it leaks into
(46:29):
the brain and causesneuroinflammation.
And it leaks into the brain andcauses neuroinflammation.
So that's why I specificallywent for poultry and seafood or
fermented beef or pork orfermented milk product, because
the fermentation process eatsthe sugar molecule NU5GC, so
(46:54):
it's not there anymore.
And, fun fact, prosciutto,which obviously comes from pigs,
has no NU5GC because thebacterial fermentation has eaten
it.
Janet Walker (47:03):
Interesting Now the book indicates that people
should avoid foods that cause animmune system reaction, which
isn't the same as foods they'reallergic to Correct.
So should people have IgG andIgA antibody tests to know which
foods they're sensitive to and,if so, where do they go for
(47:24):
that kind of testing?
Dr. Steven Gundry (47:26):
Well, we do that in all my patients their
blood tests Quite franklythrough the years.
Because I've done so many, Idon't think people have to do it
and I've listed in the booksome of the biggest
troublemakers to save you thetime and effort.
And some of them surprise a lotof people, for instance.
(47:49):
For instance, almond flour is abig mischief maker for so many
of my patients.
White mushrooms are a bigmischief maker for so many of my
patients.
Shockingly, lemons are a bigmischief maker.
(48:10):
Peaches are notorious and Ireally agonized putting that
down because I went to medicalschool in Georgia and Georgia is
a peach state for obviousreasons, but it's amazing how
many people are sensitive topeaches.
Cinnamon ranks really high and,surprisingly, ginger ranks
(48:31):
really high.
So those are just a fewexamples.
Janet Walker (48:35):
So things people think are very healthy actually
are not.
Dr. Steven Gundry (48:39):
May not be so Correct.
Janet Walker (48:41):
So the diet protocols look like something
that are livable day to day andthere's a long list of safe
foods, and people might evenfind it fun to incorporate some
of the items that they're notfamiliar with, like chicory or
tempeh or quince, Althoughremoving certain categories like
gluten, corn and dairy fromcows could prove a challenge to
(49:05):
people.
But what about the specialoccasion?
Is a slice of birthday cake, aspecial holiday meal or trying a
new food on vacation?
Okay, the occasional cheat day?
Or will that undo all theirhard work up to that point?
Dr. Steven Gundry (49:21):
The answer is it depends.
You can.
I have some people who wantexposure to their mischief
makers will kind of undoeverything they did.
The good news is that's nottrue for most people.
Once you repair leaky gut, youcan.
(49:41):
I don't want to say get awaywith murder, because that's not
what you want to do, but I'vetalked about this and I've
written about it in previousbooks, and let me give you an
example.
This and have written about itin previous books, and let me
give you an example.
We do autoimmune testing on allof our patients because most of
them have an autoimmune disease,and we decided years ago to do
(50:01):
it on ourselves.
And so when we first got backmy autoimmune testing, my
administrator came in and saidDoc, you have lupus.
I said I don't have lupus.
Anti-nuclear antibody is amarker for lupus.
He said I don't have lupus.
She said, yeah, you're positivefor anti-nuclear antibody.
(50:21):
And I go well, that's kind ofinteresting because my father's
side of the family, my aunt andmy father, had severe psoriasis.
My father was on methotrexateand immunosuppressant for 51
years and I said well, okay, Ido have a family history, for
this Family history has a littlepiece of it and I'm always
(50:47):
experimenting with food, sothat's my job.
So I said you know, I'm goingto be perfect, I'm going to
follow the yes list, I'm notgoing to do any of the no for
three weeks and I'll retest myblood.
Sure enough, I was negative foranti-nuclear antibody.
Good, so here's the best part.
(51:08):
A few years ago, I was finishingediting one of my bestsellers,
the Longevity Paradox, in NewYork City, and we were supposed
to finish on a Friday afternoon.
We didn't finish and I saidwhat the heck, I'll stay the
weekend and we'll finish Mondayand I'll fly home.
So I had the whole weekend andmy wife wasn't with me.
I said, you know, I wonder if Ican activate anti-nuclear
(51:33):
antibody my lupus.
So I cheated I had bread, I hadpasta, I had sliced tomatoes, I
had beans, I probably hadbirthday cake.
And I came back and testedmyself.
Sure enough, I was positive,positive for, and it was
actually pretty high.
And I went wow, that's reallycool, believe it or not.
(51:56):
I said, I wonder how long it'lltake me to turn it off.
So I said, okay, we're gonnadraw my blood once a week until
it's gone.
And you know I'm gonna, I'mgonna be perfect one week later.
It's negative.
Wow, okay.
So what does that teach me?
Number one I can produce leakygut by going whole hog cheating
(52:20):
for a weekend.
But the good news is mymicrobiome is pretty doggone
good shape.
My wall of my gut yeah, it gotopened up.
My immune system says oh geez,here we go again.
But I sealed it very quickly.
And now do I want to cheat on aweekend and do that?
(52:43):
No, I don't, but most peoplecan't do that, and so it's like
a professional.
You see the car commercialsProfessional driver on closed
doors Do not attempt this athome.
So maybe that's a good way tofinish this off I'm a
professional driver in a closeddoor.
Janet Walker (53:03):
Well, that's a hopeful story, though for people
it's not too late.
Dr. Steven Gundry (53:08):
No, it's never too late.
One of the things that wasreally exciting to me in writing
this book is the addictionstory, and the thing that is
hopeful is we know that.
You know addiction is at anall-time high and we have lots
(53:29):
of reasons.
We can thank drug companies, wecan thank social media or
whatever, but in the end allthese treatment programs for
whatever addiction you choose,fail miserably.
The recidivism rate, thefailure rate is about 90% and
(53:52):
you know this is despiteintensive counseling and these
people often end up going backand back and back and yeah, they
clean up their act and thenthey fall right back off.
And what the exciting part ofthe book is we now know that
there is an addictive microbiomethat they want you to get these
(54:17):
substances, not to actuallybenefit them, and they use
primarily pain, sometimesdopamine, as a way of getting
you to seek more of this out.
And the more pain they createby causing leaky gut, the more
(54:41):
of this substance you willingest or inject and the more
they will get.
And the good news is and thishas been shown in experimental
animals, it's been shown inhumans that you can break that
cycle and get this addictivemicrobiome out of you, and I
(55:05):
have several really touchingstories in the book about people
who have finally overcome thisaddiction by working with food
and their gut rather than anddon't get me wrong, all the
psychological help isappreciated, but I actually now
have a big center in LA whowants to work with me because
(55:28):
they realize that this is not uphere, it's coming from down
here.
Janet Walker (55:33):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Dr. Steven Gundry (55:35):
Yeah.
Janet Walker (55:35):
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, dr
Gundry.
It was really such an honor tohave you here, and I know that
on my next trip to the grocerystore I'm going to be armed with
my list to start on one of theoutlined dietary protocols in
the book.
So thank you again.
So so much Thanks for having me.
I hope we can talk to you againsometime when you come out with
(55:57):
your next book, perhaps.
Dr. Steven Gundry (55:59):
Absolutely.
We're going to start working onit very shortly.
Great, I can't stop.
Janet Walker (56:05):
And it's a good thing for the public that you
can't.
Thank you again so much to DrSteven Gundry for being with us
today.
You can get your copy of theGut-Brain Paradox by visiting
his website at drgundrycom.
That's d-r-g-u-n-d-r-ycom, orwherever books are sold.
(56:29):
Thank you so much for listeningto the Healthy Cells, Healthy
you podcast with me, your host,Janet Walker.
This podcast first aired on theaward-winning Better Wellness
podcast.
You can find us on ApplePodcasts, Google Podcasts,
iHeartRadio, Spotify or whereveryou get your podcasts.
So subscribe, be well, andthanks for listening.
Recently, I had the pleasure of interviewing an
internationally known doctor forthe Better Wellness Podcast.
His research has helpedthousands of patients heal
through diet.
We took a deep dive into hisnewest book, the Gut-Brain
Paradox.
So stay tuned to hear this veryspecial one-hour episode of
(00:22):
Healthy Cells Healthy you.
Welcome to Healthy Cells.
Healthy you.
Welcome to Healthy Cells,healthy you.
I'm your host, janet Walker.
I've been working in thehealthcare community for over 30
years and for 20 of those yearsI've also worked as a writer
and producer for theaward-winning national PBS
health information televisionshows, american Health Journal
(00:44):
and Innovations in Medicine.
You can watch current episodesof Innovations in Medicine on
your local PBS channel or youcan stream our programs on the
American Health Channel, theBetter Health Channel and TV
Healthy Kids.
I'm also a new host for theaward-winning podcast Better
Wellness.
For the award-winning podcastBetter Wellness, our very
(01:06):
special guest today is the oneand only Dr Steven Gundry.
Dr Gundry is the director ofthe International Heart and Lung
Institute in Palm Springs andthe founder and director of the
Center for Restorative Medicinein Palm Springs and Santa
Barbara, California.
After a distinguished career asa heart transplant surgeon and
(01:26):
a professor and chairman ofcardiothoracic surgery at Loma
Linda University, dr Gundrychanged his focus to curing
modern diseases via dietarychanges.
His best-selling books includeGut Check, unlocking the Keto
Code, the Energy Paradox and thePlant Paradox.
He has written more than 300articles published in
(01:49):
peer-reviewed journals on usingdiet and supplements to
eliminate disease, among them,heart disease, diabetes and
autoimmune diseases.
He is the host of thetop-ranked nutrition podcast,
the Dr Gundry Podcast, and thefounder of Gundry MD, a wellness
brand.
Today, we're talking about hisnewest book, the Gut-Brain
(02:11):
Paradox.
Hello, Dr Gundry, welcome toBetter Wellness.
We're so happy that you wereable to join us today and I'm
honored to talk to you aboutyour newest book.
Well, thanks for having me.
Great to be here.
Our mutual friend, wellnessexpert, David Delrahim, has
wonderful things to say aboutthe book, so I was really
looking forward to reading itand I'm so glad I did Now.
(02:34):
You've authored manybestselling books focused on
food-based health interventions.
What motivated you to write thisbook and were there any
surprises when you wereresearching for it?
There was a lot.
I try to write my next book asa follow-up to the previous book
(02:55):
, which was Gut Check.
It was becoming abundantlyclear, particularly in gut check
, about the incrediblesophisticated communication
system that we've been able todecipher between the microbiome
(03:21):
or the holobiome.
The microbiome or the holobiomeas I call it, and our emotions,
our brain health, our brainaging, addiction, food choices.
(03:51):
And with each passing yearwe're getting more and more
nuanced in how muchcommunication there is between
the microbiome and our brain andhow much control is exerted on
our brain by the microbiome.
And so I said let's go downinto those rabbit holes.
And, like I write about in thebook, there were lots of
surprises that awaited me Anymore.
Not surprised by much, but lotsof surprises in this book,
(04:13):
particularly, I think, in termsof our personalities and our
food choices and, maybe mostimportantly, our addictive
behaviors and how muchassociation there is between the
gut microbiome and all of that.
(04:34):
So in your previous books youtaught readers how to reverse
disease and improve health bypreventing or repairing leaky
gut, and in this book you go astep further and delve into the
role and importance of themicrobiome on brain health.
So let's give our listeners abasic education about the
microbiome and leaky gut.
(04:55):
First, what is it?
Starting with the microbiome?
Dr. Steven Gundry (05:00):
Well, so the microbiome is this collection of
organisms that most peopleassociate with bacteria that
live in our intestinal tract,and there's a hundred trillion
bacteria that live in our colonalone.
(05:22):
In our colon alone, that's likeeight times more bacteria in
our colon than there are treeson earth, just to give you an
idea.
Janet Walker (05:35):
Wow, that's a lot.
Dr. Steven Gundry (05:36):
That's a lot, and that doesn't even mention
the thousand species of bacteriathat live in our mouth, the 700
species of bacteria that livein our skin.
We even have a bacteria cloudaround us and so collectively,
these are all called theholobiome, but the microbiome.
(05:59):
Really, we didn't know howcomplex it was up until the
Human Microbiome Project wasstarted in 2006 and finished in
2017.
Figuring out who lives down,there was one thing.
Figuring out what those guyswere doing down, there was
(06:21):
another.
What we now realize is that thisis akin to a tropical
rainforest, and a tropicalrainforest obviously there's
lots of diverse animals, plants,insects, bugs, et cetera all
(06:43):
knit together in an ecologicalsystem and kind of each member
of this community is dependenton multiple other members for
their survival, and what we nowknow is that we can actually
apply the same ecologicalprinciples to looking at our
microbiome, much like we look ata tropical rainforest.
(07:07):
And, simplistically, the morediverse our microbiome, the more
different members of ourmicrobiome good guys and bad
guys the healthier we are andthe healthier our brain is and
(07:27):
our thought processes are.
On the other hand, the morekind of desert wasteland rather
than a tropical rainforest wehave in our gut, the worse off
we are in terms of our guthealth and our mental health, in
terms of our gut health and ourmental health, and so that's a
kind of starting premise ofunderstanding the microbiome.
Janet Walker (07:56):
And so we learn from the book that it's not just
our bodies that are affected bythe microbiome.
Dr. Steven Gundry (08:00):
How does it influence our brain function and
mental health?
Well, it takes a while to wrapour head around the fact that,
(08:31):
sadly, or good news.
So much of our thinkingprocesses, so much of our
emotions, so much of our desiresisn't actually coming from here
.
It's actually coming from thewants and needs of our
microbiome.
And that's hard for advancedcreatures like us who think, you
know, we're the smartestwhatever existed.
But it's amazing how theselittle one-cell creatures can
have such a profound effect onus.
But let me put it this way,it's akin to who's actually
(08:53):
driving the bus the bus driversor the passengers and from a
bacteria standpoint, thismicrobiome is actually our
largest organ that actuallyexists in us, and we're a
symbiotic community.
That means we do stuff for themand they do stuff for us.
(09:14):
And as ourgreat-great-grandparents
probably knew, as I say, ourgreat-great-grandparents ate
whole foods and they ate thosefoods whole.
And in eating whole foods whole, yeah, we got sugars out of it,
(09:37):
we got proteins out of it, wegot fats out of it, but there
was a lot left over and theseinclude prebiotic fiber and that
would, if you will, trickledown to our microbiome, who
needed those foods to flourishand eat.
(09:57):
And as long as they weregetting their part of the
bargain, everything was justfine.
Fast forward to now, we havemostly processed and
ultra-processed foods.
We've removed pretty much allthe stuff that our microbiome
(10:18):
used to get, and so ourmicrobiome can hear us chewing
up there, they hear usswallowing, they know food's on
the way, and then nothingarrives and they go what the
heck?
I know he's eating, I can see, Ican hear food.
Nothing's coming down for me,for me, and they literally send
(10:45):
text messages to the brain.
To number one I know you'reeating, but you're not eating
enough, because I'm clearly notgetting it and my ancestors used
to, so go eat more.
Number two I am not satisfiedwith the things you're eating
(11:05):
and I'm hangry if we all knowthat expression and so it
actually totally changes ouroutlook.
A lot of the book is spenttrying to convince people about
how real this is and how ourmicrobiome, depending on who's
(11:25):
down there and depending on whatwe give them to eat, has
profound effects on our weight,on depression, on anxiety and
even addictions.
And the good news, despite allthat bad news, is that we now
know what they're looking forand we now know how to give them
(11:46):
the good stuff to make us feelgood.
Janet Walker (11:49):
I'm going to ask you a little more about that in
just a minute, but let's talk alittle bit about leaky gut, and
I'm sure many of our listenershave heard of it but don't
really know what it is and howit impacts our health.
So can you explain leaky gut?
What is it and what isdysbiosis?
Dr. Steven Gundry (12:08):
So again, if you have a functioning tropical
rainforest, you've got all thesemembers of the community that
are kind of dependent on eachother In dysbiosis.
It means basically that all thebalancing that goes on between
these different species isthrown off so that there's too
(12:33):
many bad guys and not enoughgood guys.
Now most people say, oh geez,we don't want any bad guys.
But that's actually not true.
You actually have to have abalance of good guys and bad
guys.
The example I like to use isYellowstone Park.
Many people may remember that afew years ago wolves in
(12:56):
Yellowstone Park were eradicated, because wolves are obviously
bad guys and we don't wantwolves running around eating elk
or whatever.
So wolves were eradicated inYellowstone Park.
Well, lo and behold, whathappened was that wolves predate
(13:16):
on elk.
Elk no longer had a naturalpredator, so elk good guys
overgrew predator.
So elk good guys overgrew andthey got hungry and they ate all
the little saplings.
And, interestingly enough,beavers have to have saplings to
(13:40):
build beaver dams, and sobeavers didn't have any saplings
, so beavers died off.
And without beaver dams youdidn't have fish in the ponds
and next thing we know we didn'thave raccoons that were eating
the fish, et cetera, et cetera.
So the ecosystem completely gotunbalanced by eliminating a bad
guy.
So when they reintroducedwolves back in Yellowstone Park,
(14:05):
it took a number of years tolevel out, but the bad guy was
necessary to keep everythingelse in balance.
And so it's the same way withour gut microbiome.
It's this balance, or what Icall in the book, the terroir or
terrain, that's the mostimportant, and as long as that
(14:29):
terrain is rich and balanced,we're in great shape.
So that's dysbiosis and sadly,we can actually measure who's in
there, we can do counts, we canknow what they make, what they
don't make, what's lacking.
So to answer your first part ofyour question, what the heck is
(14:52):
leaky gut?
It's tossed around.
First of all, it is notpseudoscience.
A professor who's now atHarvard, who's a pediatric
gastroenterologist, by the nameof Alessio Fasano, figured out
how leaky gut happens, how tomeasure it, and it's not
(15:18):
pseudoscience.
We measure it every day inblood tests.
Simplistically, the lining ofour gut, from our mouth all the
way down to our rear end, is thesame surface area.
If we laid it out flat as atennis court, probably two
tennis courts.
So when we're watching the BNPParibas Indian Wells tennis
(15:40):
tournament in a few weeks, pnpParibas Indian Wells tennis
tournament.
In a few weeks there's a tenniscourt inside of us, a surface
area.
Now we have a design flaw.
The lining of our gut is onlyone cell thick and so everything
we swallow, all the bacteria,are separated from us, the rest
(16:03):
of our body, by only one cell.
Now those cells are heldtogether with glue, if you will.
That are called tight junctions, and most of us are old enough
to remember a kid's game calledRed Rover, red Road.
Janet Walker (16:21):
I remember that one.
Dr. Steven Gundry (16:22):
You know it's now illegal in school.
It's too dangerous.
Anyhow, remember, we all lockedarms and the kids came running
across and we all squealed andright, your arms broke.
So think of these cells ashaving crossed arms, all locked
together.
So we now know that there are anumber of compounds, including
(16:45):
lectins, which I've written alot about, that want to attach
to the wall of the gut and theymake a chemical that actually
breaks that tight junction, ormultiple tight junctions.
So now we've literally got agap.
Now we've literally got a gap.
Now.
So what?
Well, on the other side of thiswall, 80% of all of our white
(17:10):
blood cells are standing guardright there.
Why are they all there?
Because this is where mischiefcan come across and they want to
be ready for eating whatevercomes around.
That would happenintermittently in the past, and
we had some really good systemsto make sure it didn't happen.
(17:32):
We had a great gut microbiome,we had a lot of mucus, et cetera
, et cetera, and if somebody gotacross the white cell and said,
oops, that's a bad guy, I'mgoing to eat him, let's patch
the hole Now, because we don'thave a great gut microbiome,
because a lot of the microbiomeare bad guys, and not a lot of
(17:56):
good guys.
This leaky gut is happeningliterally 24 hours a day, 365
days a year.
So now our white blood cellsare basically overrun.
They're overwhelmed by all thistrouble coming across the gut.
So it's not just oh my gosh, weneed more troops down here.
(18:21):
These guys are getting past usand we're going to send messages
up to the brain to fortifyyourselves.
All hands on deck, protect thisimportant structure, this
(18:42):
important structure.
There's an immune system in ourbrain that I talk about, called
the glial cells, which are thebrain's, the neuron's,
bodyguards, and they spring intoaction and they actually
believe it or not, kind of pullup the drawbridges on the castle
because the hordes are comingand they try to protect the
neuron at all costs.
The hordes are coming and theytry to protect the neuron at all
(19:04):
costs.
In the process of doing that,they actually sever the
connections of one neurontalking to another.
And no wonder we have brain fogand memory issues.
And the book details howAlzheimer's comes about,
parkinson's comes about andsimple memory loss, and it's all
related to what's actuallygoing down in the gut in the
(19:26):
first place.
Janet Walker (19:27):
Interesting.
You just mentioned Alzheimer'sand addiction.
Most people don't associate guthealth with mental health,
which is one reason the book isso enlightening mental health,
which is one reason the book isso enlightening.
What specific bacteria areassociated with depression and
how do they affectneurotransmitter levels?
Dr. Steven Gundry (19:47):
So that's a great question.
One of the things we've knownfor a long time that there's a
amino tryptophan that isactually manufactured by gut
bacteria, and gut bacteria thenuse tryptophan to make a lot of
(20:09):
the feel-good hormones like.
We'll use serotonin, forexample.
And serotonin a lot of peoplehave heard about serotonin
because it's the feel-goodhormone, but also a lot of
people are on antidepressants,and most of these
antidepressants are what arecalled serotonin reuptake
(20:31):
inhibitors, ssris.
We're taught that normally inour brain we use serotonin as a
neurotransmitter and then webreak it down when we don't need
it anymore, and these compoundssupposedly work by stopping
(20:55):
that breakdown.
So there's more serotonin leftin the brain and you feel
happier.
Well, if that is actually howthey work, then one would think
that I could swallow anantidepressant today and
tomorrow.
I'd be happy because I now haveplenty of serotonin, because
(21:16):
I'm not breaking it down.
As anyone who's taken theseantidepressants knows, that
isn't what happens.
It can take a month or more tonotice a change in depression.
So you go, what the heck?
Well, now we know that thesedrugs work by actually changing
(21:37):
the microbiome into a morediverse microbiome that in turn,
makes more tryptophan and makesmore serotonin, and that
doesn't happen overnight.
It takes weeks to make thatchange.
So what we used to think wassomething that was happening up
(22:00):
here is now happening down here.
What's equally troublesome isthese particular bacteria are
incredibly sensitive to anherbicide that all of us have
heard of called Roundup, and itsactive ingredient is glyphosate
(22:20):
.
Now, glyphosate is worthknowing.
Glyphosate was patented as anantibiotic by Monsanto, not as a
weed killer, and glyphosateactually specifically kills off
the tryptophan pathway bacteria,but it spares other bad guys.
(22:47):
So every time we eatglyphosate-laden food and it's
in all of our brain products,and GMO has nothing to do with
it anymore Glyphosate is sprayedon all of our weed, all of our
corn, all of our oats, and we'reeating it every day, and so
(23:08):
we've literally killed off thosebacteria that make all the good
stuff in our guts.
So it's kind of a double whammy.
Janet Walker (23:18):
Is that why eliminating those food items
from our diet is helpful to ourgut.
Not just that we're eliminatingthe wheat or oats, but actually
the chemicals that they wereprocessed with.
Dr. Steven Gundry (23:33):
Yeah, you know, glyphosate roundup was
introduced in the mid-1970s andwe are surrounded by glyphosate
now.
I mean it's in California wines, for instance, it's in our
schoolyards, it's everywhere.
So one of the things that I'vebeen fascinated with through the
(23:58):
years is there's been a lot oflow-carb diets that have come
and go through the years theAtkins diet in the 70s, the
paleo diet, the carnivore dietis the latest iteration, the
high-protein diet.
And one of the things that wasinteresting in all of these
(24:19):
diets particularly like, I usethe Atkins diet when Atkins took
away all your carbohydrates, ofcourse it was mostly grain
products and sugars like fruit,and then as the program
progressed, you usually addedthese things back in and
invariably people's weight wouldstart going back up, and even
(24:40):
wheat belly the same way.
And then what?
What do you do?
Well, go back to phase one,take all these things away from
you know it's the evil carbsthat we're doing it.
Well, I have a lot of 80 of mypatients have autoimmune
diseases that end up seeing meand 94% of them go into
(25:00):
remission within nine months toa year, and a lot of these
people.
Then they go on vacation toEurope and they go to France or
they go to Italy and they can'thelp themselves.
They eat croissants andbaguettes and pizza and they
don't react.
Their stomachs feel great,their joints don't react, their
(25:35):
stomachs feel great, theirjoints don't hurt, their
psoriasis doesn't flare.
And they go I'm cured.
And they start having our breadand they start having our pizza
and they start having our cornand all of a sudden, within
weeks, they're on the phonegoing what the heck?
My psoriasis is back on myelbow.
What the heck?
My finger just swelled up.
What the heck?
(25:56):
I thought you cured me.
No, you encountered ourglyphosate-laden food again and
you didn't have it over inEurope because it's mostly
banned, and I write about thisin the book.
So just because you can havethese carbohydrates, these evil
things, over there, doesn't meanonce you're cured, you can
(26:20):
probably have them over here.
It's because of the presence ofglyphosate.
Janet Walker (26:24):
Wow, I wonder if our manufacturers will ever fix
that.
Probably not right.
Dr. Steven Gundry (26:30):
I doubt it.
I've said on other podcasts,unfortunately sickness is really
good for business.
Janet Walker (26:40):
That's a shame, but true.
Let me ask you this Isdysbiosis and leaky gut forever,
or can diet and lifestylechanges help improve both
physical and mental health?
Dr. Steven Gundry (26:53):
Oh, it's not forever, and that's the whole
purpose of this book.
It is fixable Now.
If you had asked me 25 yearsago how fast you could fix leaky
gut, I was a little naive and Ithought you could do it in a
couple weeks.
It usually takes most peoplenine months to a year to fully
(27:18):
seal their gut.
Now we can see it improve.
We measure this every threemonths, but we can see it
improve each time we measurethese tests.
So it's not like you're stuckfor nine months or a year, but
the improvement is measurable.
We can watch it.
(27:38):
We can watch the gut microbiomechange from month to month.
And the exciting thing and Ihave a lot of examples in the
book is that as this improvesthe depression, lifts the
Parkinson's symptoms subside theaddictive behaviors subside,
(28:01):
and that's what is so excitingSymptoms subside the addictive
behaviors subside, and that'swhat is so exciting.
I still see patients six days aweek, on the weekends, saturday
and Sunday.
I see them, and the reason I dothat is usually not a day goes
by that I get to witness what 30years ago I would have called a
miracle, but now it's.
(28:23):
If I don't see it, we're notdoing something right, and so,
yeah, it's just, it's reallyexciting to watch this happen.
Janet Walker (28:35):
Yeah, and I think, in part thanks to all your
previous books and earlierresearch, a lot of the general
public understands that there isa gut health connection, but
for most people I think this gutbrain connection is pretty new.
Can understanding that lead tobetter treatment options for
(28:57):
mental health disorders?
Dr. Steven Gundry (29:01):
treatment options for mental health
disorders.
Well, again, I think that's oneof the exciting things that I'm
excited about in this book inparticular, one of the things
that's challenging in any mentalhealth condition, in addiction,
is that the recidivism rate ishorrible.
The recidivism rate is horrible.
90% of addicts subside to theiraddiction again, despite
(29:28):
excellent treatment or treatmentover and over and over again.
And we talk about this in thebook and it's because we
actually, I think, are notaddressing the actual cause of
that, and that's the gutmicrobiome driving this behavior
.
And to me, the exciting thing isI don't think we have to blame
(29:52):
the way we blame that.
This is not you know, oh,you're a bad person because you
can't stay away from thesethings.
This is not.
You know, oh, you're a badperson because you can't stay
away from these things.
Or you know, you'repsychologically impaired because
you can't do these things.
It's actually coming from theroot problem is down in the gut.
(30:12):
And, again, the uplifting thingabout it is that these are
addressable issues, but we'vebeen addressing the wrong place.
We're trying to fix this and wehave to fix the gut.
Janet Walker (30:27):
In what ways does the communication between the
gut and the brain influencethings like our mood, cognition,
behavior, and what specificmechanisms are involved in this
interaction?
Dr. Steven Gundry (30:43):
Well, it's in two simple ways.
First of all, we now know thatthere are bacteria in the gut
that are associated with mood.
We've identified bacteria thatpredict a depressive personality
.
We've identified bacteria thatpredict an anxious personality.
(31:07):
You can take happy mice andfeed them stool from depressed
humans.
And how do you do that?
It turns out, mice love to eatpoop, it's just you know.
And these happy mice willbecome depressed.
(31:29):
And you can take depressed miceand feed them stool from happy
people and they'll become happy.
And that's just one example.
There's numerous other examplesof this.
For instance, we now know thata baby's personality has much to
(31:55):
do with the microbiome that isestablished at birth and in the
first one or two months of life,and so the good news for a
parent is, if you've got areally grouchy, colicky baby,
the odds are it's the microbiomethat's making that baby grouchy
(32:15):
and colicky and not a very goodbaby, rather than your baby's
just a bad baby.
Janet Walker (32:23):
Well, that explains why my two kids' babies
had such differentpersonalities.
One had a sensitive, colickystomach and one didn't.
Dr. Steven Gundry (32:30):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
And I have two daughters andthey're genetically very similar
but they're almost polaropposites in their mood and blah
, blah, blah and you go.
Well, she came out of the boxthat way.
She came out of the box and itturns out yeah, they came out
(32:51):
with that set of microbes andit's just fascinating that this
could occur.
Janet Walker (32:57):
Let me ask you a question that actually isn't on
my question list, but when youwere mentioning that the
poop-eating mice it brought itto mind In your book.
You talked a lot about fecaltransplants.
I've never heard that before.
Where is that performed and whogets that, and how does that
help someone?
(33:17):
So?
Dr. Steven Gundry (33:18):
fecal transplants.
They're not allowed in theUnited States because of the FDA
, unless under certainconditions, but in Europe,
particularly, they are used totreat C difficile.
They're used for a lot of otherthings, and I talk about fecal
transplants that have been usedin autistic kids and the results
(33:40):
are remarkable.
And there's even a study whereautistic children are given
fecal transplants in the form ofcapsules and they have a
hilarious name they're calledcrapsules crapsules and they
(34:09):
dramatically alter the autism inthese kids.
And so we now know that thesebacteria have far-reaching
effects on so many things thatwe thought had nothing to do
with.
You know, the brain like autism.
Janet Walker (34:20):
So do you think fecal transplants will ever be
FDA approved or part ofmainstream medicine in the
United States?
Dr. Steven Gundry (34:27):
The FDA for correct reasons.
You can't control everythingthat's coming in and at this
moment we don't know who all thebad guys are.
Are we bringing in viruses thatwe can't measure yet?
(34:49):
So I think at the moment it'llstill be investigational, but I
don't think we have to wait forthat.
We know now enough about whatthe good guys want to eat, what
the bad guys like, and the bookis okay.
We know all this now.
Here's how to not give the badguys what to eat, here's how to
(35:13):
give the good guys what to eat,and the rest of the book is.
But wait, it's not just givethese guys a bunch of prebiotics
and everything will be fine.
We now know that, to paraphraseHillary Clinton, it takes a
village and we may need an endproduct, like a short-chain
(35:34):
fatty acid called butyrate thata bunch of good guys make.
It's really important for us,but we didn't know that it would
take, like four other differentbacteria each making a product
that the next bacteria needed toeat, to make the next product
that the next bacteria needed toeat, to finally get to the
(35:54):
final guy who then makesbutyrate.
And we had no idea that it wasthat complex.
But again, it takes thisterrain, this tropical
rainforest, and we shouldn'thave been so naive.
And it's all in the book how toRebuild your Tropical
Rainforest.
Janet Walker (36:15):
So what practical steps do you recommend for
restoring gut health, and howcan these interventions
potentially improve our physicalwell-being and our mental
well-being and cognitivefunction?
Dr. Steven Gundry (36:28):
Well, number one here in Southern California,
when my patients walk throughthe door, 80% of them are
vitamin D deficient.
And you go, wait a minute.
We're in Southern California.
There's sun every day of theyear.
How could that be?
(36:48):
Well, we've used sunscreens andwe're so afraid of the sun we
cover up, we wear long-sleevedshirts in the sun, we wear a hat
in the sun and we're just veryvitamin D deficient.
So what?
Two things?
Number one we know the higheryour vitamin D level, the more
(37:10):
diverse your microbiome is, thebetter that tropical rainforest
is.
I mean, it's directcorrelations.
Number two we now know thatvitamin D is essential to keep
that wall of the gut intact andto repair any breaks in the gut.
Number three, which may be themost important, is that vitamin
(37:34):
D tells our white blood cells,our immune system, to calm down.
Don't get so excitable, getyour finger off the trigger.
And so it's a three-prong.
And it's amazing, 100% of mypatients with leaky gut and
(37:56):
autoimmune disease have lowvitamin D levels 100%.
So that's number one.
Number two I tell people that,yeah, I can heal your leaky gut
and yes, it's going to take us awhile to do that.
But if you keep swallowingrazor blades, you're just going
(38:18):
to slice it right back open.
Razor blades, that you're justgoing to slice it right back
open.
So that's why, among otherthings, I talk about lectins,
which are plant defense proteinsthat literally act like
swallowing razor blades.
Their job is to make theirpredator, us, not feel very good
in so many different ways, andwe just don't pay attention.
(38:45):
So, removing these offenders,getting a high vitamin D and
then fostering a more diversemicrobiome by using not only
fermented foods, which give someof the precursors for building
butyrate, but also giving theseguys the raw materials of
(39:09):
prebiotic fiber, that's how todo it and it's outlined in the
book and it's actually easier todo than people think.
For instance, an easy-to to usefermented food is vinegar.
Vinegar is an amazing fermentedfood.
Kefir, goat and sheep yogurtsare a great way to do it and,
(39:33):
fun fact, a traditionallycultured sausage, even
prosciutto, is a fermented foodand it's loaded with postbiotics
.
So great news.
You look at some of these superlong-lived societies in the
(39:56):
quote blue zones and theremarkable thing is these guys
almost all of these societieseat a lot of fermented foods in
the form of yogurts and in agedcheeses.
And, surprise, surprise,sausages and fermented meats
(40:17):
across the board and you go waita minute minute, those are all
bad for you.
Amen, that's, that's evil.
Well, it turns out that thesesocieties are eating fermented
animal products and, like thething that was stunning to me is
the.
The people with the longestlifespan, as a country usually
(40:44):
surprises people.
It's a little country betweenSpain and France called Andorra,
and Andorrians have a lifespanof like 90 years.
Yeah pretty nice.
And what do they do?
Well, they're sheep and goatherders and all they basically
(41:04):
eat is sheep and goat yogurtsand cheeses and sausages.
They have sausages forbreakfast, lunch and dinner and
you go.
How can they be the longestliving people?
You know they're eating badfood.
The thing that really, reallyshocked me years ago I presented
a paper at a nutritionconference in Toulouse, France.
(41:26):
Toulouse is famous for foiegras and famous for sausages.
Cassoulet is from Toulouse.
These guys eat what would seemto be the worst diet in the
world, if you wanted to designone.
And yet they have the lowestincidence of heart disease in
(41:48):
all of france.
And you go.
What the heck?
Well, remember we, we have to,we have to question conventional
wisdom.
And if conventional wisdom saysall these guys have heart
disease and they ought to diehorrible, painful, slow deaths,
(42:09):
how come they're doing this?
Well, it's this fermented foodthat they're eating, and I go
into that in detail in the book.
It's like son of a gun.
That in detail in the book.
It's like son of a gun.
Here's why what we thoughtmight be bad for you is probably
pretty doggone.
Janet Walker (42:27):
Good for you.
How interesting.
Now, the book is full ofwonderful research, clinical
studies and real patientexamples, but it also gives
readers two detailed options fordietary changes to restore
their gut and improve theirhealth.
Are these short-term protocolsto heal the gut or are they
(42:48):
long-term lifestyle changes?
Dr. Steven Gundry (42:51):
Well, of the two programs, the first one is
really what I use in my clinicsfor the vast majority of my
patients.
It's what was in the plantparadox and gut check and it
works for the vast majority ofpeople.
But I see some real hardcoretroubled people, particularly
(43:17):
suffering from addiction ormental illnesses or Alzheimer's
or Parkinson's, and these peopleI've found through the years
that their gut wall is such inbad shape that they're quite
intolerant to almost all plantcompounds, regardless how good
(43:41):
they might be for you or me.
People accuse me of being thefather of the carnivore diet,
because if you take myrecommendations to the nth
degree, then all plant compoundswish you harm, because you're
(44:04):
their predator and we ought toget rid of all plant compounds.
Not so fast, but I foundthrough the years that these
people seem to be far moresensitive to plant compounds in
general.
And so in the last program inthe book called the Chicken and
(44:24):
the Sea, I basically have mypatients eliminate all plant
material, all fruits.
My patients eliminate all plantmaterial, all fruits and
basically use pastured chicken,wild fish, wild shellfish and
fermented primarily sheep andgoat milk, as well as fermented
(44:46):
meats like prosciutto, forexample, or a true fermented
sausage and the turnaround inthese people using that is
really nothing short ofremarkable, and I profile a few
of these people in the book.
Do I think that's a long-termstrategy?
(45:06):
No, I think this is anintensive care to get the gut
wall healed and then let'sreintroduce some of these actual
beneficial plant compounds.
I'm a confirmed plant predator,but you got to know who your
friends are and you got to knowwho doesn't like you very much,
(45:27):
but it's been remarkable.
Now why not put them on anall-beef diet?
We really don't have the time todo that today, but beef, lamb,
pork and non-fermented milk havea really mischievous sugar
molecule that's called NU5GC,capital G, capital G.
(45:48):
We have a sugar molecule thatwe share with fish and poultry
called NU5AC, capital A.
The molecules are virtuallyidentical, except for one
(46:08):
molecule of oxygen.
When we eat NU5GC containingfoods, our immune system makes
aggressive antibodies to it.
We hate it.
System makes aggressiveantibodies to it.
We hate it.
Our brain hates NU5GC and oneof the things we've learned now
is that when you eat NU5GC, itcauses leaky gut, it activates
your immune system and it causesleaky brain and it leaks into
(46:29):
the brain and causesneuroinflammation.
And it leaks into the brain andcauses neuroinflammation.
So that's why I specificallywent for poultry and seafood or
fermented beef or pork orfermented milk product, because
the fermentation process eatsthe sugar molecule NU5GC, so
(46:54):
it's not there anymore.
And, fun fact, prosciutto,which obviously comes from pigs,
has no NU5GC because thebacterial fermentation has eaten
it.
Janet Walker (47:03):
Interesting Now the book indicates that people
should avoid foods that cause animmune system reaction, which
isn't the same as foods they'reallergic to Correct.
So should people have IgG andIgA antibody tests to know which
foods they're sensitive to and,if so, where do they go for
(47:24):
that kind of testing?
Dr. Steven Gundry (47:26):
Well, we do that in all my patients their
blood tests Quite franklythrough the years.
Because I've done so many, Idon't think people have to do it
and I've listed in the booksome of the biggest
troublemakers to save you thetime and effort.
And some of them surprise a lotof people, for instance.
(47:49):
For instance, almond flour is abig mischief maker for so many
of my patients.
White mushrooms are a bigmischief maker for so many of my
patients.
Shockingly, lemons are a bigmischief maker.
(48:10):
Peaches are notorious and Ireally agonized putting that
down because I went to medicalschool in Georgia and Georgia is
a peach state for obviousreasons, but it's amazing how
many people are sensitive topeaches.
Cinnamon ranks really high and,surprisingly, ginger ranks
(48:31):
really high.
So those are just a fewexamples.
Janet Walker (48:35):
So things people think are very healthy actually
are not.
Dr. Steven Gundry (48:39):
May not be so Correct.
Janet Walker (48:41):
So the diet protocols look like something
that are livable day to day andthere's a long list of safe
foods, and people might evenfind it fun to incorporate some
of the items that they're notfamiliar with, like chicory or
tempeh or quince, Althoughremoving certain categories like
gluten, corn and dairy fromcows could prove a challenge to
(49:05):
people.
But what about the specialoccasion?
Is a slice of birthday cake, aspecial holiday meal or trying a
new food on vacation?
Okay, the occasional cheat day?
Or will that undo all theirhard work up to that point?
Dr. Steven Gundry (49:21):
The answer is it depends.
You can.
I have some people who wantexposure to their mischief
makers will kind of undoeverything they did.
The good news is that's nottrue for most people.
Once you repair leaky gut, youcan.
(49:41):
I don't want to say get awaywith murder, because that's not
what you want to do, but I'vetalked about this and I've
written about it in previousbooks, and let me give you an
example.
This and have written about itin previous books, and let me
give you an example.
We do autoimmune testing on allof our patients because most of
them have an autoimmune disease,and we decided years ago to do
(50:01):
it on ourselves.
And so when we first got backmy autoimmune testing, my
administrator came in and saidDoc, you have lupus.
I said I don't have lupus.
Anti-nuclear antibody is amarker for lupus.
He said I don't have lupus.
She said, yeah, you're positivefor anti-nuclear antibody.
(50:21):
And I go well, that's kind ofinteresting because my father's
side of the family, my aunt andmy father, had severe psoriasis.
My father was on methotrexateand immunosuppressant for 51
years and I said well, okay, Ido have a family history, for
this Family history has a littlepiece of it and I'm always
(50:47):
experimenting with food, sothat's my job.
So I said you know, I'm goingto be perfect, I'm going to
follow the yes list, I'm notgoing to do any of the no for
three weeks and I'll retest myblood.
Sure enough, I was negative foranti-nuclear antibody.
Good, so here's the best part.
(51:08):
A few years ago, I was finishingediting one of my bestsellers,
the Longevity Paradox, in NewYork City, and we were supposed
to finish on a Friday afternoon.
We didn't finish and I saidwhat the heck, I'll stay the
weekend and we'll finish Mondayand I'll fly home.
So I had the whole weekend andmy wife wasn't with me.
I said, you know, I wonder if Ican activate anti-nuclear
(51:33):
antibody my lupus.
So I cheated I had bread, I hadpasta, I had sliced tomatoes, I
had beans, I probably hadbirthday cake.
And I came back and testedmyself.
Sure enough, I was positive,positive for, and it was
actually pretty high.
And I went wow, that's reallycool, believe it or not.
(51:56):
I said, I wonder how long it'lltake me to turn it off.
So I said, okay, we're gonnadraw my blood once a week until
it's gone.
And you know I'm gonna, I'mgonna be perfect one week later.
It's negative.
Wow, okay.
So what does that teach me?
Number one I can produce leakygut by going whole hog cheating
(52:20):
for a weekend.
But the good news is mymicrobiome is pretty doggone
good shape.
My wall of my gut yeah, it gotopened up.
My immune system says oh geez,here we go again.
But I sealed it very quickly.
And now do I want to cheat on aweekend and do that?
(52:43):
No, I don't, but most peoplecan't do that, and so it's like
a professional.
You see the car commercialsProfessional driver on closed
doors Do not attempt this athome.
So maybe that's a good way tofinish this off I'm a
professional driver in a closeddoor.
Janet Walker (53:03):
Well, that's a hopeful story, though for people
it's not too late.
Dr. Steven Gundry (53:08):
No, it's never too late.
One of the things that wasreally exciting to me in writing
this book is the addictionstory, and the thing that is
hopeful is we know that.
You know addiction is at anall-time high and we have lots
(53:29):
of reasons.
We can thank drug companies, wecan thank social media or
whatever, but in the end allthese treatment programs for
whatever addiction you choose,fail miserably.
The recidivism rate, thefailure rate is about 90% and
(53:52):
you know this is despiteintensive counseling and these
people often end up going backand back and back and yeah, they
clean up their act and thenthey fall right back off.
And what the exciting part ofthe book is we now know that
there is an addictive microbiomethat they want you to get these
(54:17):
substances, not to actuallybenefit them, and they use
primarily pain, sometimesdopamine, as a way of getting
you to seek more of this out.
And the more pain they createby causing leaky gut, the more
(54:41):
of this substance you willingest or inject and the more
they will get.
And the good news is and thishas been shown in experimental
animals, it's been shown inhumans that you can break that
cycle and get this addictivemicrobiome out of you, and I
(55:05):
have several really touchingstories in the book about people
who have finally overcome thisaddiction by working with food
and their gut rather than anddon't get me wrong, all the
psychological help isappreciated, but I actually now
have a big center in LA whowants to work with me because
(55:28):
they realize that this is not uphere, it's coming from down
here.
Janet Walker (55:33):
Oh, that's wonderful.
Dr. Steven Gundry (55:35):
Yeah.
Janet Walker (55:35):
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, dr
Gundry.
It was really such an honor tohave you here, and I know that
on my next trip to the grocerystore I'm going to be armed with
my list to start on one of theoutlined dietary protocols in
the book.
So thank you again.
So so much Thanks for having me.
I hope we can talk to you againsometime when you come out with
(55:57):
your next book, perhaps.
Dr. Steven Gundry (55:59):
Absolutely.
We're going to start working onit very shortly.
Great, I can't stop.
Janet Walker (56:05):
And it's a good thing for the public that you
can't.
Thank you again so much to DrSteven Gundry for being with us
today.
You can get your copy of theGut-Brain Paradox by visiting
his website at drgundrycom.
That's d-r-g-u-n-d-r-ycom, orwherever books are sold.
(56:29):
Thank you so much for listeningto the Healthy Cells, Healthy
you podcast with me, your host,Janet Walker.
This podcast first aired on theaward-winning Better Wellness
podcast.
You can find us on ApplePodcasts, Google Podcasts,
iHeartRadio, Spotify or whereveryou get your podcasts.
So subscribe, be well, andthanks for listening.
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