December 8, 2024 • 26 mins
12/08/24
The Healthy Matters Podcast
S04_E04 - Decoding Food Labels
Our diets are a major contributor to our overall health, so of course it's important to know what's in the food we eat. And what better way would there be to find out what's in our food than to read its label? But let's face it, oftentimes food labels can be confusing, and sometimes even a little misleading. So how do you interpret what's on a food label? What does each of the items mean for our diets? And what is Riboflavin, anyway?
To help us get a better understanding of these cryptic contents, we'll be joined once again by Dr. Iesha Galloway-Gilliam (MD). She chairs the Department of Weight Management at Hennepin Healthcare and she'll help us get our heads around the contents of a food label, the real meanings behind buzzwords like "natural", "fresh" and "organic", and the role macronutrients play in our diets. We all gotta eat, so there's something here for everyone. Join us!
We're open to your comments or ideas for future shows!
Email - healthymatters@hcmed.org
Call - 612-873-TALK (8255)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Healthy Matters podcast with
Dr. David Hilden , primary carephysician and acute care
hospitalist at HennepinHealthcare in downtown
Minneapolis, where we cover thelatest in health healthcare and
what matters to you. And nowhere's our host, Dr. David
Hilden .
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey everybody, it's Dr. David Hilton . Welcome to
episode four of season four ofthe podcast. Today we're gonna
talk about food, and moreimportantly, what's on the food
labels. To help me out, I havean expert in internal medicine,
Dr. Aisha Galloway Gilliam .
She is also the director of theComprehensive Weight Management
Center at Hennepin Healthcare,and she's gonna help us out
(00:38):
today. Aisha , thanks for beingon the show. Thanks
Speaker 3 (00:40):
For having
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Me. It's great to have you. And let's face it,
the labels on our food areconfusing. Mm-hmm
. Yeah. Many of us might knowwhat a few of the things listed
on them might be, but whatabout the rest? Why are some
fonts bigger than others? Uh ,more than ever our diets are a
major contributor to ouroverall health. So today we're
gonna talk about that. Start usoff, if you will, Dr. Galloway
(01:01):
Gilliam . Why is understandingfood labels so important?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I think of the food label as the secret de holder
ring. There is so muchmarketing involved in our food,
and that's because the foodcompanies invest a lot of money
in , uh, attracting ourattention. So the front
packaging will have claims,it's brightly colored, it is
(01:28):
intended to stand out. The foodlabel though, brings an
additional element ofaccountability as there are
some regulatory requirementsfrom the FDA . And so when you
are really trying to get to thenitty gritty of the matter
regarding what is in theproduct that you're looking to
(01:48):
purchase, that food labelbecomes important to be able to
decipher.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But that's hard to do. It is. So explain, if you
could, in a little more detail, why are the labels the way
they are? I mean, they'rehidden on the back. Some of the
things must be mandatory.
They're in big types , some of'em are small little things.
There's all these ingredients.
Let's , why is that importantto our , my family's health?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Because you need to know how the nutritional
components that are in the foodare potentially going to impact
your health. In order to dothat, of course, it's important
to have some baselineunderstanding of what you're
looking for. As you said, it ,it can be confusing. There are
some general tricks and tipsthat a person can use when
(02:32):
they're looking at anutritional label, but this is
also part of why it's importantto educate ourselves and be
informed consumers. It
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Struck me as that a lot of the things around the
perimeter of a grocery storedon't have a label at all.
Mm-hmm . Nobody,nobody has to list it on the
label, on the asparagus, dothey?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Exactly. Right.
Processed or ultra processedfoods compared to Whole Foods.
And we hear this language alot, eat Whole Foods. Well,
what does that mean? What doesthat mean ? What is , and what
is it ? Is it, what does itmean ? What does it
mean? Right. And so one of theexamples I use is exactly what
you just said. If it does notrequire an ingredient label,
(03:09):
you look at an apple, it's anapple. I don't need an
ingredient label to tell methat it's a whole food. If it
requires an ingredient label,it's probably processed to some
degree. Now, all processedfoods aren't bad for us, but
the degree of processingmatters, and that's part of
where those nutritional labelsand being able to interpret
(03:31):
those labels becomes criticallyimportant. The closer a product
looks to what it looked like ,uh, when it came out of the
ground, or as it was roamingaround the, the pasture or the
farm , the less processed itis.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That makes sense.
That makes, I hadn't thoughtabout it that way when I said
the thing about the, theproduce doesn't have a label
mm-hmm . Butyou've just really hit on that.
But don't come after mySnickers bar
Speaker 3 (03:55):
.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I think we're gonna be coming after my Snickers bar
a little bit later in the show.
Okay. So , um, let's break downa food label then. The whole
label, it starts out withserving sizes and servings per
container and calories. Whatdoes all that mean, and why is
that important?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, so the , the serving size is one of the very
first, I think, and potentiallymost useful areas of the label
to look at. And it's why it'son the top. People don't often
realize that when they arebuying a packaged ingredient,
it contains typically more thanone serving. So when you do
(04:31):
look at the next part of thelabel, which is the calorie
content, you have to realizethat whatever you're purchasing
may have two or three servings.
And so you have to amplify thenumber of calories you're
getting.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
That's a pitfall, isn't it? Because , uh, my own
wife has told me that. I go,well, I just ate that one bag
of Oreo cookies and look at itonly has X number of calories
in it. She goes, yeah, butthere were six servings in that
bag .
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yes,
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Exactly. And that can really, that, you know , it
requires some math actually.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yes , it does.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yes. Okay. So that's a, that's a pitfall. Mm-hmm
. Dr. Gallie ,Gilliam , what's a calorie?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Uh , a calorie is a measurement of energy contained
in a food. Right? So when wethink about what are called
macronutrients, and those arebroad-based categories for
food, so that's fats, proteins,and carbohydrates. And so it
just, it's a , a numericalmeasurement for how much energy
(05:29):
is released from this fooditem.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So you've brought up those three big ones, fats,
proteins, carbohydrates. Andover the years in my practice,
our ideas of those have changedmm-hmm . And I
remember fats was bad, bad,bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
Proteins was a neutral. Andcarbohydrates were , um, okay.
That isn't the way it isanymore, is it? Mm-hmm
(05:53):
. But it'sprobably not true that just one
thing is good and one thing isbad. Mm-hmm .
It's not that, that clear. Yeah. Could you talk us through
those three macronutrients andwhat they mean for our diet?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So it is complicated , um, and it is important, as
you pointed out, to try toavoid concrete thinking , uh,
though that there are someareas that we know either
promote or work against ourhealth. So when we're thinking
about carbohydrate, this isthe, the one that comes up most
often , uh, for me in, in theexam room with patients,
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Hearing a lot about carbs. Now,
Speaker 3 (06:28):
What is a carbohydrate? Yeah. When , when
, when we think aboutcarbohydrates, often people are
thinking about like flour basedproducts, breads, pastas. They
aren't often thinking aboutfruits and vegetables. They,
they aren't often thinkingabout the , the fact that those
are carbohydrate containingfood items as well. Um , and so
(06:48):
when I am providing guidance topatients on carbohydrates, I
say, get your carbohydratesfrom fruits and vegetables.
Those are going to be yourhealthiest sources, followed by
whole grains. The items thatare more highly processed, as
(07:09):
we talked about earlier, tendto be the types of
carbohydrates we really wannaminimize in our diet. We know
that ultra processed foodsdefinitely contribute to
chronic disease risk. So as weprocess down the carbohydrates,
again, the less they look likewhat they look like when they
were sort of pulled out of theground, the more processed they
(07:32):
are. So there's a full spectrumof carbohydrate to consider as
we're thinking about how muchof these items should I be
including in my diet.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay. So you talked about carbs, and it's not so
simple. Mm-hmm .
There's complex, simple,there's a gamut of carbs.
Mm-hmm . Uh ,what about, what's the role of
proteins in our diet?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Protein is really, really important in our diet.
Um, when we think about whereprotein lives in our bodies ,
of course, one of the majorareas is in our muscles. Um,
and , uh, our muscles arereally, really important.
Health of our muscles arereally, really important for,
of course, our strength fallreduction for our metabolic
(08:10):
health. So we want to eat andconsume healthy sources of
protein. Now, most peoplearen't overindulging on
protein. That's why the FDAdoes not require a daily value,
quantity to be declared on thefood ingredient label, because
that's not an area wherethere's a , a perceived
(08:32):
significant risk to health.
Sources of protein can comefrom Most classic form is
animals. People know, okay,when I'm talking to patients
about protein, yeah, I, I getmy protein from chicken or
Turkey or fish, you know, orred meat. And sort of the ,
this conversation around redmeat comes up often, but people
(08:52):
often don't realize is thatthey could also get pretty good
quality protein from plants.
Now it's harder to get as muchin one serving, but , um, there
are really nice, well-roundedplant-based sources of protein
like tofu or Tempe, which areconsidered a complete and a
whole protein,
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Proteins, carbs.
Before we move on to otherthings like sugars and fiber
and all that, let's talk aboutfats.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
So this is another area, as you mentioned, where
we've had some evolution overthe past 10, 15 years. And part
of how we got into a positionwhere our foods were so have
become so heavily inundatedwith sugar is that fat was
(09:38):
targeted in the late seventies,early eighties because of the
concern of an association withheart disease. And so there was
a big push to reduce fat. Sofrom the low fat push, sprang
up a high sugar sort ofindustry. And it was after that
that we really started to seethings emerge, like the obesity
(10:01):
epidemic and , um, thisincreased incidence of , uh,
diabetes.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So we're not gonna talk epidemiology here, but do
you think, I mean , just alittle aside, is it was obesity
and the epidemic largely due tothe rise of sugars.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
The epidemiological data suggests that highly,
based on my interpretation.
Yeah. When you look at some ofthe graphs where the degree of
sugar , uh, that was introducedinto the American diet, the ,
the timeframe where thatstarted really matches quite
closely the line for theobesity epidemic.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I strongly remember the push for low fats mm-hmm
. In theeighties. Yeah. I strongly
remember that was the diet. Youwanna be healthy, low fat
folks. That was 20 years or 40years ago. Mm-hmm
. We're in a different placenow. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
So when we talk about fats, you have to be
careful about the type of fat.
There are really healthy formsof fat. Our bodies need fat to
survive. And the healthy formsof fat are traditionally
considered what are calledmonounsaturated fats. So think
about your olive oil, thinkabout your avocados and
(11:11):
polyunsaturated fats. Uh , I amgonna call out specifically on
this omega threes. Think aboutyour salmon. Your certain
highly fatty fish are reallypacked with omega threes. And
then you have of course, yoursaturated fat. That's a little
complicated too. It's, it's,it's a little , uh, more
(11:32):
complicated than we oncethought it was. But
traditionally, we want to becareful about how much
saturated fat we are consuming.
And that's for a variety ofreasons, but maybe not as much
as what we once thought.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So you shouldn't probably eat a whole stick of
butter that , that's what Ithink of what I think of
century .
Speaker 3 (11:52):
That's probably not a good
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Idea. So thanks, Aisha . We've talked about the
macronutrients and some of thethings that are at the top of
the label. We're gonna take aquick break. I'm gonna get a
little healthy snack. And whenwe come back, we're gonna talk
about what's on that label,what does that ingredient list
mean, and what are some ofthose other little
micronutrients? And I'm hopingyou could tell me what
riboflavin is because I'venever known. So stay with us
listeners. We'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
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(12:37):
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Speaker 2 (12:53):
We're back talking with Dr. Aisha Galloway Gilliam
about food labels andnutrition. And I'm gonna start
off the second half with whatis riboflavin?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Riboflavin is a , um, B vitamin. It's vitamin B
two. And it's something thatour bodies use , basically like
in biochemical reactions. And ,um, it's, it's a part of our ,
uh, energy cycle.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Literally, somebody has asked me, and I , you know,
what is ribo flam ? I go, Idon't know. I must have been
sick that day in med school.
Maybe I knew that at one point.
I think maybe they didn't teachme that in med school, so thank
you. It's one of the Bvitamins. You're welcome. I
wanted to clear the air onthat. Let's talk about some
other words people see on thelabel. Uh, they see words like
trans fat . They see words likefiber, sodium. Let's talk about
(13:38):
those three if we could inorder what is a trans fat ?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
So trans fat is , uh, partially hydrogenated oil.
And some of these occurnaturally in our food, but most
often they are manufactured andproduced historically. Now we
know that things are not alwaysneat about food and that it ,
(14:02):
it's important to some degreeto try to avoid concrete
thinking around food. But inthis area, there is a
definitive association withtrans fats and increased risk
for cardiovascular disease. Somuch so that the federal
government said these must beremoved from our food supply.
(14:26):
Um, and so they , they reallyare no longer allowed to add
trans fats specifically tofoods, but they still may be
included if a certain foodproduct has less than 0.5 grams
of transects , that food labelcan say zero transect . Mm-hmm
. So this goes back to theserving size part . Right . So
(14:50):
knowing that you may be gettingmore trans fat if you are
eating more than one serving ofthat particular food. I
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Know . I didn't know that. Okay. So that one I think
listeners can take to the bank,minimize trans fat , right?
Preferably none of 'em .
Speaker 3 (15:04):
That's right. Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
What is fiber? Fiber
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Does a few things.
It helps to prevent a higherdegree of blood sugar spikes
when our bodies are digestingthat. It helps us to feel
fuller longer. It's healthy forour digestive tracts can help
prevent and and treatconstipation. It can help to
reduce the amount of , uh,saturated fats absorbed into
(15:27):
the bloodstream. So that's whyyou see , uh, fiber associated
with cholesterol benefits. Andso it, it really is a really
healthy part of the diet thatwe often don't get enough of
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Trans fat's, bad fiber's generally something you
should seek
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Out. That's correct.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
In general, you know, nothing's absolute in the
mm-hmm . In theworld, but in general. Okay.
The third thing I talked about,they often talk about sodium.
Is salt bad in our diet? Yeah,
Speaker 3 (15:52):
We get too much of it. It does have an association
with a number of , uh, youknow, health conditions , um,
blood pressure, people who havecertain heart conditions and,
and so we definitely want to bemindful of how much we're
getting in our diets generallyless than, you know, 2000
(16:12):
milligrams, 1500 milligrams ina day. And most of us get much,
much more than that.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Read your labels.
That's something that you cansee on the label. Yeah . And ,
uh, it's everywhere, sort oflike sugars. It's another one
of those things we have to lookout for. Okay. So thank you for
those. Now I wanna talk aboutbuzzwords. People here, and
it's maybe not always on thenutrition facts, but it's often
on the labels of foods likenatural or organic. Mm-hmm
(16:39):
. This is a dietor this is a healthy product.
Could you speak a little bit tothose words that are may or may
not be true, but they aregenerally marketing terms. Yeah
, but they're on our packages.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Mm-hmm
. And that's exactly right. So
that goes back to the marketingterms like natural are really
confusing. I, there , therereally isn't sort of a strict
definition for what that means.
There's a loose definition,which is that this product
doesn't have any synthetic orartificial ingredients, but
(17:13):
that doesn't mean a whole lotbecause you can use synthetic
ingredients in producing thatfood. Uh, it doesn't mean that
there aren't preservatives.
Really interpret that with agreat degree of caution and
front of the box labeling ingeneral with some caution. Now
(17:33):
organic is separate. Thatterminology is definitely
regulated by the USDA, ifthere's a stamp on the product.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Like USDA
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Organic Yeah . US D organic. Um, and there are some
standards that do have to befollowed. You know, when , when
we're talking about an organicproduct and generally organic
means that , uh, 95% of theingredients that are in that
product are organic. If it's100% organic, then 100% of the
ingredients are , uh, organic.
(18:04):
And now these products aresupposed to be without , uh,
artificial or syntheticingredients. There are some
natural pesticides that areallowed, but no synthetic
pesticides. And then there aresome sort of farming
regulations , uh, aroundorganic foods. And then it also
is important to call out thatsometimes folks are farming
(18:26):
organically, but just don'thave the money to stamp their
product as organic. So this iswhere shopping really close to
the farm and , uh, you know,co-ops and things like that can
be helpful for you to , uh, geta, get a good sense of where
your came
Speaker 2 (18:41):
From, the organic .
That makes sense to me. And Iknow there's a reality for many
people that they're , they canbe more expensive sometimes,
but, but you can go to farmer'smarkets Yeah . And buy directly
from the person that grew itand ask them mm-hmm . To just
spray a bunch chemicals onthese. Yeah . You know, so
there are ways to do it mm-hmm . But it does
make some sense to me. Mm-hmm . What about
natural sugars versus syntheticsugars? And I always think of
(19:03):
some popular colas. When youbuy that cola in another
country, it's made with naturalsugar mm-hmm .
Cane sugar or something. Andwhen you buy that cola in the
United States, it's made withhigh fructose corn syrup.
Mm-hmm . Sothat's what I always think of .
Yeah . Is there a differencebetween those sugars? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Sugar is sugar , uh, you know, to to,
to just keep it simple. Uh ,people come in and ask, okay,
well I used honey or I usedagave syrup. Um, and so is that
better than just using, youknow, my run of the mill
granulated table sugar? And theanswer is, then your body's
gonna see it the same way. It'ssugar. Now there , there is
(19:41):
some nuanced territory withhigh fructose corn syrup
because of the way fructose isprocessed within our bodies
compared to , uh, glucose. AndI don't know that we need to
get down that rabbit hole, but,but, but that potentially has
some different metabolicconsequences associated with
it. Natural sugar. So that,that's also a little bit
(20:03):
nuanced when we're thinkingabout sugars on the ingredient
label versus added sugars. Sonatural sugars, sort of sugars
that are just natural to theactual products versus sugars,
extra sugars that are added tothe product. So like
Speaker 2 (20:19):
An apple has sugar.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, exactly. That part of the ingredient label is
important to look at too. Howmuch sugar was actually added
in addition to what's naturallyoccurring.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So what , let's talk about the ingredient list. Now
we've got through some of thetop parts of the food label.
We've talked about the packageon the front of it. Now down to
the nitty gritty, theingredients. When you are
reading an ingredient list,what are you looking for?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
First? I'm looking for how many ingredients are on
the list. Right. So again,thinking about how processed is
this item? If, if this is anultra processed food item, I'm
really gonna be thinking twiceabout whether it's something I
wanna buy. Thinking about theingredient list in terms of how
(21:03):
ingredients are listed, theorder in which they are listed
is important as well, because
Speaker 2 (21:08):
It does matter.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
It matters. They're listed from heaviest weight to
least. Right. So what is firston the ingredient label takes
up most of that product. And soI'm going to be looking if it's
a sort of a processed item forwhole grains to be listed first
and then kind of reading fromthere. I'm also gonna be
(21:31):
looking for how much syntheticchemicals are added. Are there
a bunch of names? I don'trecognize what, what, what are
these things? That's gonna besomething I'm gonna think twice
about, is it something Ireally, really wanna do? And
the answer may be, yeah. 'causeI want a Snickers bar .
Exactly. Uh , but I, at least Ihave the information that I
(21:53):
need to really , um, make aninformed decision about that in
that moment. Um, and be a , uh,an informed consumer. And
that's the , the power thatinterpreting ingredient level
gives.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah . I went to and read a thing by somebody, a
famous , uh, author on food. Hesaid, if your great grandmother
or your grandmother wouldn'trecognize those things mm-hmm .
On that list, maybe give it a
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Pass. Yeah . Yes.
Exactly. Or if you don'trecognize
Speaker 2 (22:17):
The thing on that list. Exactly . It's got too
many syllables. It's a word youdon't understand. It looks like
something from a chemistry lab.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Exactly. You
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Might wanna think, think about it. You might wanna
think twice. Think twice. Okay.
Before we wrap up, Dr. GallowayGilliam , I wanna ask you about
, um, some tips for people inmanaging their food intake. Um,
there are things like dailyrequirements. Where do those
come from and should people bemonitoring their or their
progress toward the dailyrequirements? Or what, what
tips would you give people
Speaker 3 (22:43):
When a person is looking at the percent daily
value? This is complicatedbecause math can be involved,
but a good way to generallyinterpret those numbers is that
if it is 5% or less of thepercent daily value, it's
(23:04):
considered low. So if you'vegot a , uh, item that has 5% or
less , um, total fat, it wouldbe considered low. If it is 20%
or higher of whatever themicronutrient is, it would be
considered high. And so whenyou are thinking about your own
(23:25):
individualized needs, 'causethis is gonna differ depending
upon the person, and that'spart of what makes it
complicated, looking at thelabel with that in mind, if I
know that I'm trying to followa low fat diet, then I'm gonna
need to be looking for thingsthat are less
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Than five . If it says 20, 30, 40% of you fat ,
Speaker 3 (23:45):
You're getting a lot in that product . Product .
That's exactly , yeah, that'sexactly right.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So in your practice, you, you literally run our
comprehensive weight managementclinic. We don't call it weight
loss, we don't call it this,that , or anything . We call it
weight management. In yourpractice, you probably talk to
people all the time about theirnutrition. What tips do you
give them and that you couldleave our listeners with mm-hmm
Speaker 3 (24:06):
.
Yeah. So as you pointed outearlier, one of the tips for
sure is shopping at theperimeter of the store. That is
where you're going to be mostlikely to encounter some of
those less ultra processed fooditems. The ultra processed
foods tend to live in thecenter of the store, and those
are the things that are inboxes and have a long
(24:28):
ingredient label. Uh, the otherthing is, when you're shopping,
go in prepared. You know, havea a list, know what you're
going in for. And then ofcourse, as we have all heard,
but it's really important,don't shop hungry because our
hunger hormones are powerful.
(24:50):
It it , this is not aboutwillpower. Those hormones send
a very powerful and potentmessage to our brains. So you
wanna have a game plan, go inand follow the play that helps
you to be able to be reallyintentional about what you're
purchasing,
Speaker 2 (25:06):
What great advice for people next time you go
grocery shopping, or next timeyou're planning your family's
food for the week. I thinkwe've picked up a lot of great
tips today from you, Dr.
Galloway Gilliam . So thank youfor being on the show .
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And I encourage listeners to , you know,
compare the labels andhopefully you've learned
something today to help youwhen you do compare those
labels. We've been talking withDr. Aisha Galloway Gim . She is
the director of theComprehensive Weight Management
Center at Hennepin Healthcare.
And a friend and colleague ofmine here, listeners, thanks
for joining us and I hopeyou'll join us in two weeks
time for our next episode. Andin the meantime, be healthy. Be
(25:41):
well.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Thanks for listening to the Healthy Matters podcast
with Dr. David Hilden . To findout more about the Healthy
Matters podcast or browse thearchive, visit healthy
matters.org. Got a question ora comment for the show, email
us at Healthy matters@hcme.orgor call 6 1 2 8 7 3 talk.
There's also a link in the shownotes. The Healthy Matters
(26:06):
Podcast is made possible byHennepin Healthcare in
Minneapolis, Minnesota, andengineered and produced by John
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and Christine Hill . Pleaseremember, we can only give
general medical advice duringthis program, and every case is
unique. We urge you to consultwith your physician if you have
a more serious or pressinghealth concern. Until next
(26:27):
time, be healthy and be well.
Welcome to the Healthy Matters podcast with
Dr. David Hilden , primary carephysician and acute care
hospitalist at HennepinHealthcare in downtown
Minneapolis, where we cover thelatest in health healthcare and
what matters to you. And nowhere's our host, Dr. David
Hilden .
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hey everybody, it's Dr. David Hilton . Welcome to
episode four of season four ofthe podcast. Today we're gonna
talk about food, and moreimportantly, what's on the food
labels. To help me out, I havean expert in internal medicine,
Dr. Aisha Galloway Gilliam .
She is also the director of theComprehensive Weight Management
Center at Hennepin Healthcare,and she's gonna help us out
(00:38):
today. Aisha , thanks for beingon the show. Thanks
Speaker 3 (00:40):
For having
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Me. It's great to have you. And let's face it,
the labels on our food areconfusing. Mm-hmm
. Yeah. Many of us might knowwhat a few of the things listed
on them might be, but whatabout the rest? Why are some
fonts bigger than others? Uh ,more than ever our diets are a
major contributor to ouroverall health. So today we're
gonna talk about that. Start usoff, if you will, Dr. Galloway
(01:01):
Gilliam . Why is understandingfood labels so important?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I think of the food label as the secret de holder
ring. There is so muchmarketing involved in our food,
and that's because the foodcompanies invest a lot of money
in , uh, attracting ourattention. So the front
packaging will have claims,it's brightly colored, it is
(01:28):
intended to stand out. The foodlabel though, brings an
additional element ofaccountability as there are
some regulatory requirementsfrom the FDA . And so when you
are really trying to get to thenitty gritty of the matter
regarding what is in theproduct that you're looking to
(01:48):
purchase, that food labelbecomes important to be able to
decipher.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But that's hard to do. It is. So explain, if you
could, in a little more detail, why are the labels the way
they are? I mean, they'rehidden on the back. Some of the
things must be mandatory.
They're in big types , some of'em are small little things.
There's all these ingredients.
Let's , why is that importantto our , my family's health?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Because you need to know how the nutritional
components that are in the foodare potentially going to impact
your health. In order to dothat, of course, it's important
to have some baselineunderstanding of what you're
looking for. As you said, it ,it can be confusing. There are
some general tricks and tipsthat a person can use when
(02:32):
they're looking at anutritional label, but this is
also part of why it's importantto educate ourselves and be
informed consumers. It
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Struck me as that a lot of the things around the
perimeter of a grocery storedon't have a label at all.
Mm-hmm
label, on the asparagus, dothey?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Exactly. Right.
Processed or ultra processedfoods compared to Whole Foods.
And we hear this language alot, eat Whole Foods. Well,
what does that mean? What doesthat mean ? What is , and what
is it ? Is it, what does itmean
mean? Right. And so one of theexamples I use is exactly what
you just said. If it does notrequire an ingredient label,
(03:09):
you look at an apple, it's anapple. I don't need an
ingredient label to tell methat it's a whole food. If it
requires an ingredient label,it's probably processed to some
degree. Now, all processedfoods aren't bad for us, but
the degree of processingmatters, and that's part of
where those nutritional labelsand being able to interpret
(03:31):
those labels becomes criticallyimportant. The closer a product
looks to what it looked like ,uh, when it came out of the
ground, or as it was roamingaround the, the pasture or the
farm , the less processed itis.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
That makes sense.
That makes, I hadn't thoughtabout it that way when I said
the thing about the, theproduce doesn't have a label
mm-hmm
But don't come after mySnickers bar
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I think we're gonna be coming after my Snickers bar
a little bit later in the show.
Okay. So , um, let's break downa food label then. The whole
label, it starts out withserving sizes and servings per
container and calories. Whatdoes all that mean, and why is
that important?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, so the , the serving size is one of the very
first, I think, and potentiallymost useful areas of the label
to look at. And it's why it'son the top. People don't often
realize that when they arebuying a packaged ingredient,
it contains typically more thanone serving. So when you do
(04:31):
look at the next part of thelabel, which is the calorie
content, you have to realizethat whatever you're purchasing
may have two or three servings.
And so you have to amplify thenumber of calories you're
getting.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
That's a pitfall, isn't it? Because , uh, my own
wife has told me that. I go,well, I just ate that one bag
of Oreo cookies and look at itonly has X number of calories
in it. She goes, yeah, butthere were six servings in that
bag .
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yes,
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Exactly. And that can really, that, you know , it
requires some math actually.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
Yes , it does.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yes. Okay. So that's a, that's a pitfall. Mm-hmm
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Uh , a calorie is a measurement of energy contained
in a food. Right? So when wethink about what are called
macronutrients, and those arebroad-based categories for
food, so that's fats, proteins,and carbohydrates. And so it
just, it's a , a numericalmeasurement for how much energy
(05:29):
is released from this fooditem.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
So you've brought up those three big ones, fats,
proteins, carbohydrates. Andover the years in my practice,
our ideas of those have changedmm-hmm
remember fats was bad, bad,bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
Proteins was a neutral. Andcarbohydrates were , um, okay.
That isn't the way it isanymore, is it? Mm-hmm
(05:53):
thing is good and one thing isbad. Mm-hmm
It's not that, that clear. Yeah. Could you talk us through
those three macronutrients andwhat they mean for our diet?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So it is complicated , um, and it is important, as
you pointed out, to try toavoid concrete thinking , uh,
though that there are someareas that we know either
promote or work against ourhealth. So when we're thinking
about carbohydrate, this isthe, the one that comes up most
often , uh, for me in, in theexam room with patients,
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Hearing a lot about carbs. Now,
Speaker 3 (06:28):
What is a carbohydrate? Yeah. When , when
, when we think aboutcarbohydrates, often people are
thinking about like flour basedproducts, breads, pastas. They
aren't often thinking aboutfruits and vegetables. They,
they aren't often thinkingabout the , the fact that those
are carbohydrate containingfood items as well. Um , and so
(06:48):
when I am providing guidance topatients on carbohydrates, I
say, get your carbohydratesfrom fruits and vegetables.
Those are going to be yourhealthiest sources, followed by
whole grains. The items thatare more highly processed, as
(07:09):
we talked about earlier, tendto be the types of
carbohydrates we really wannaminimize in our diet. We know
that ultra processed foodsdefinitely contribute to
chronic disease risk. So as weprocess down the carbohydrates,
again, the less they look likewhat they look like when they
were sort of pulled out of theground, the more processed they
(07:32):
are. So there's a full spectrumof carbohydrate to consider as
we're thinking about how muchof these items should I be
including in my diet.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay. So you talked about carbs, and it's not so
simple. Mm-hmm
There's complex, simple,there's a gamut of carbs.
Mm-hmm
proteins in our diet?
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Protein is really, really important in our diet.
Um, when we think about whereprotein lives in our bodies ,
of course, one of the majorareas is in our muscles. Um,
and , uh, our muscles arereally, really important.
Health of our muscles arereally, really important for,
of course, our strength fallreduction for our metabolic
(08:10):
health. So we want to eat andconsume healthy sources of
protein. Now, most peoplearen't overindulging on
protein. That's why the FDAdoes not require a daily value,
quantity to be declared on thefood ingredient label, because
that's not an area wherethere's a , a perceived
(08:32):
significant risk to health.
Sources of protein can comefrom Most classic form is
animals. People know, okay,when I'm talking to patients
about protein, yeah, I, I getmy protein from chicken or
Turkey or fish, you know, orred meat. And sort of the ,
this conversation around redmeat comes up often, but people
(08:52):
often don't realize is thatthey could also get pretty good
quality protein from plants.
Now it's harder to get as muchin one serving, but , um, there
are really nice, well-roundedplant-based sources of protein
like tofu or Tempe, which areconsidered a complete and a
whole protein,
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Proteins, carbs.
Before we move on to otherthings like sugars and fiber
and all that, let's talk aboutfats.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
So this is another area, as you mentioned, where
we've had some evolution overthe past 10, 15 years. And part
of how we got into a positionwhere our foods were so have
become so heavily inundatedwith sugar is that fat was
(09:38):
targeted in the late seventies,early eighties because of the
concern of an association withheart disease. And so there was
a big push to reduce fat. Sofrom the low fat push, sprang
up a high sugar sort ofindustry. And it was after that
that we really started to seethings emerge, like the obesity
(10:01):
epidemic and , um, thisincreased incidence of , uh,
diabetes.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
So we're not gonna talk epidemiology here, but do
you think, I mean , just alittle aside, is it was obesity
and the epidemic largely due tothe rise of sugars.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
The epidemiological data suggests that highly,
based on my interpretation.
Yeah. When you look at some ofthe graphs where the degree of
sugar , uh, that was introducedinto the American diet, the ,
the timeframe where thatstarted really matches quite
closely the line for theobesity epidemic.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I strongly remember the push for low fats mm-hmm
remember that was the diet. Youwanna be healthy, low fat
folks. That was 20 years or 40years ago. Mm-hmm
. We're in a different placenow. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
So when we talk about fats, you have to be
careful about the type of fat.
There are really healthy formsof fat. Our bodies need fat to
survive. And the healthy formsof fat are traditionally
considered what are calledmonounsaturated fats. So think
about your olive oil, thinkabout your avocados and
(11:11):
polyunsaturated fats. Uh , I amgonna call out specifically on
this omega threes. Think aboutyour salmon. Your certain
highly fatty fish are reallypacked with omega threes. And
then you have of course, yoursaturated fat. That's a little
complicated too. It's, it's,it's a little , uh, more
(11:32):
complicated than we oncethought it was. But
traditionally, we want to becareful about how much
saturated fat we are consuming.
And that's for a variety ofreasons, but maybe not as much
as what we once thought.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So you shouldn't probably eat a whole stick of
butter that , that's what Ithink of what I think of
century .
Speaker 3 (11:52):
That's probably not a good
Speaker 2 (11:53):
Idea. So thanks, Aisha . We've talked about the
macronutrients and some of thethings that are at the top of
the label. We're gonna take aquick break. I'm gonna get a
little healthy snack. And whenwe come back, we're gonna talk
about what's on that label,what does that ingredient list
mean, and what are some ofthose other little
micronutrients? And I'm hopingyou could tell me what
riboflavin is because I'venever known. So stay with us
listeners. We'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
When Hennepin Healthcare says We are here for
life. They mean here for you,your life, and all that it
brings. Hennepin Healthcare hasa hospital, HCMC, and a network
of clinics both downtown andacross the West Metro. They
provide all the primary careand specialty care you would
expect to find, but did youknow they also have services
like acupuncture andchiropractic care available at
(12:37):
many of their primary careclinics and at their
integrative health clinic indowntown Minneapolis? Learn
more@hennepinhealthcare.org.
Hennepin Healthcare is here foryou and here for life.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
We're back talking with Dr. Aisha Galloway Gilliam
about food labels andnutrition. And I'm gonna start
off the second half with whatis riboflavin?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Riboflavin is a , um, B vitamin. It's vitamin B
two. And it's something thatour bodies use , basically like
in biochemical reactions. And ,um, it's, it's a part of our ,
uh, energy cycle.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Literally, somebody has asked me, and I , you know,
what is ribo flam ? I go, Idon't know. I must have been
sick that day in med school.
Maybe I knew that at one point.
I think maybe they didn't teachme that in med school, so thank
you. It's one of the Bvitamins. You're welcome. I
wanted to clear the air onthat. Let's talk about some
other words people see on thelabel. Uh, they see words like
trans fat . They see words likefiber, sodium. Let's talk about
(13:38):
those three if we could inorder what is a trans fat ?
Speaker 3 (13:40):
So trans fat is , uh, partially hydrogenated oil.
And some of these occurnaturally in our food, but most
often they are manufactured andproduced historically. Now we
know that things are not alwaysneat about food and that it ,
(14:02):
it's important to some degreeto try to avoid concrete
thinking around food. But inthis area, there is a
definitive association withtrans fats and increased risk
for cardiovascular disease. Somuch so that the federal
government said these must beremoved from our food supply.
(14:26):
Um, and so they , they reallyare no longer allowed to add
trans fats specifically tofoods, but they still may be
included if a certain foodproduct has less than 0.5 grams
of transects , that food labelcan say zero transect . Mm-hmm
. So this goes back to theserving size part . Right . So
(14:50):
knowing that you may be gettingmore trans fat if you are
eating more than one serving ofthat particular food. I
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Know . I didn't know that. Okay. So that one I think
listeners can take to the bank,minimize trans fat , right?
Preferably none of 'em .
Speaker 3 (15:04):
That's right. Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
What is fiber? Fiber
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Does a few things.
It helps to prevent a higherdegree of blood sugar spikes
when our bodies are digestingthat. It helps us to feel
fuller longer. It's healthy forour digestive tracts can help
prevent and and treatconstipation. It can help to
reduce the amount of , uh,saturated fats absorbed into
(15:27):
the bloodstream. So that's whyyou see , uh, fiber associated
with cholesterol benefits. Andso it, it really is a really
healthy part of the diet thatwe often don't get enough of
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Trans fat's, bad fiber's generally something you
should seek
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Out. That's correct.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
In general, you know, nothing's absolute in the
mm-hmm
The third thing I talked about,they often talk about sodium.
Is salt bad in our diet? Yeah,
Speaker 3 (15:52):
We get too much of it. It does have an association
with a number of , uh, youknow, health conditions , um,
blood pressure, people who havecertain heart conditions and,
and so we definitely want to bemindful of how much we're
getting in our diets generallyless than, you know, 2000
(16:12):
milligrams, 1500 milligrams ina day. And most of us get much,
much more than that.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Read your labels.
That's something that you cansee on the label. Yeah . And ,
uh, it's everywhere, sort oflike sugars. It's another one
of those things we have to lookout for. Okay. So thank you for
those. Now I wanna talk aboutbuzzwords. People here, and
it's maybe not always on thenutrition facts, but it's often
on the labels of foods likenatural or organic. Mm-hmm
(16:39):
Could you speak a little bit tothose words that are may or may
not be true, but they aregenerally marketing terms. Yeah
, but they're on our packages.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Mm-hmm
that goes back to the marketingterms like natural are really
confusing. I, there , therereally isn't sort of a strict
definition for what that means.
There's a loose definition,which is that this product
doesn't have any synthetic orartificial ingredients, but
(17:13):
that doesn't mean a whole lotbecause you can use synthetic
ingredients in producing thatfood. Uh, it doesn't mean that
there aren't preservatives.
Really interpret that with agreat degree of caution and
front of the box labeling ingeneral with some caution. Now
(17:33):
organic is separate. Thatterminology is definitely
regulated by the USDA, ifthere's a stamp on the product.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Like USDA
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Organic Yeah . US D organic. Um, and there are some
standards that do have to befollowed. You know, when , when
we're talking about an organicproduct and generally organic
means that , uh, 95% of theingredients that are in that
product are organic. If it's100% organic, then 100% of the
ingredients are , uh, organic.
(18:04):
And now these products aresupposed to be without , uh,
artificial or syntheticingredients. There are some
natural pesticides that areallowed, but no synthetic
pesticides. And then there aresome sort of farming
regulations , uh, aroundorganic foods. And then it also
is important to call out thatsometimes folks are farming
(18:26):
organically, but just don'thave the money to stamp their
product as organic. So this iswhere shopping really close to
the farm and , uh, you know,co-ops and things like that can
be helpful for you to , uh, geta, get a good sense of where
your came
Speaker 2 (18:41):
From, the organic .
That makes sense to me. And Iknow there's a reality for many
people that they're , they canbe more expensive sometimes,
but, but you can go to farmer'smarkets Yeah . And buy directly
from the person that grew itand ask them mm-hmm . To just
spray a bunch chemicals onthese. Yeah . You know, so
there are ways to do it mm-hmm
make some sense to me. Mm-hmm
natural sugars versus syntheticsugars? And I always think of
(19:03):
some popular colas. When youbuy that cola in another
country, it's made with naturalsugar mm-hmm
Cane sugar or something. Andwhen you buy that cola in the
United States, it's made withhigh fructose corn syrup.
Mm-hmm
Yeah . Is there a differencebetween those sugars? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Sugar is sugar
to just keep it simple. Uh ,people come in and ask, okay,
well I used honey or I usedagave syrup. Um, and so is that
better than just using, youknow, my run of the mill
granulated table sugar? And theanswer is, then your body's
gonna see it the same way. It'ssugar. Now there , there is
(19:41):
some nuanced territory withhigh fructose corn syrup
because of the way fructose isprocessed within our bodies
compared to , uh, glucose. AndI don't know that we need to
get down that rabbit hole, but,but, but that potentially has
some different metabolicconsequences associated with
it. Natural sugar. So that,that's also a little bit
(20:03):
nuanced when we're thinkingabout sugars on the ingredient
label versus added sugars. Sonatural sugars, sort of sugars
that are just natural to theactual products versus sugars,
extra sugars that are added tothe product. So like
Speaker 2 (20:19):
An apple has sugar.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Yeah, exactly. That part of the ingredient label is
important to look at too. Howmuch sugar was actually added
in addition to what's naturallyoccurring.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So what , let's talk about the ingredient list. Now
we've got through some of thetop parts of the food label.
We've talked about the packageon the front of it. Now down to
the nitty gritty, theingredients. When you are
reading an ingredient list,what are you looking for?
Speaker 3 (20:42):
First? I'm looking for how many ingredients are on
the list. Right. So again,thinking about how processed is
this item? If, if this is anultra processed food item, I'm
really gonna be thinking twiceabout whether it's something I
wanna buy. Thinking about theingredient list in terms of how
(21:03):
ingredients are listed, theorder in which they are listed
is important as well, because
Speaker 2 (21:08):
It does matter.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
It matters. They're listed from heaviest weight to
least. Right. So what is firston the ingredient label takes
up most of that product. And soI'm going to be looking if it's
a sort of a processed item forwhole grains to be listed first
and then kind of reading fromthere. I'm also gonna be
(21:31):
looking for how much syntheticchemicals are added. Are there
a bunch of names? I don'trecognize what, what, what are
these things? That's gonna besomething I'm gonna think twice
about, is it something Ireally, really wanna do? And
the answer may be, yeah. 'causeI want a Snickers bar
Exactly. Uh , but I, at least Ihave the information that I
(21:53):
need to really , um, make aninformed decision about that in
that moment. Um, and be a , uh,an informed consumer. And
that's the , the power thatinterpreting ingredient level
gives.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah . I went to and read a thing by somebody, a
famous , uh, author on food. Hesaid, if your great grandmother
or your grandmother wouldn'trecognize those things mm-hmm .
On that list, maybe give it a
Speaker 3 (22:14):
Pass. Yeah . Yes.
Exactly. Or if you don'trecognize
Speaker 2 (22:17):
The thing on that list. Exactly . It's got too
many syllables. It's a word youdon't understand. It looks like
something from a chemistry lab.
Yeah,
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Exactly. You
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Might wanna think, think about it. You might wanna
think twice. Think twice. Okay.
Before we wrap up, Dr. GallowayGilliam , I wanna ask you about
, um, some tips for people inmanaging their food intake. Um,
there are things like dailyrequirements. Where do those
come from and should people bemonitoring their or their
progress toward the dailyrequirements? Or what, what
tips would you give people
Speaker 3 (22:43):
When a person is looking at the percent daily
value? This is complicatedbecause math can be involved,
but a good way to generallyinterpret those numbers is that
if it is 5% or less of thepercent daily value, it's
(23:04):
considered low. So if you'vegot a , uh, item that has 5% or
less , um, total fat, it wouldbe considered low. If it is 20%
or higher of whatever themicronutrient is, it would be
considered high. And so whenyou are thinking about your own
(23:25):
individualized needs, 'causethis is gonna differ depending
upon the person, and that'spart of what makes it
complicated, looking at thelabel with that in mind, if I
know that I'm trying to followa low fat diet, then I'm gonna
need to be looking for thingsthat are less
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Than five . If it says 20, 30, 40% of you fat ,
Speaker 3 (23:45):
You're getting a lot in that product . Product .
That's exactly , yeah, that'sexactly right.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
So in your practice, you, you literally run our
comprehensive weight managementclinic. We don't call it weight
loss, we don't call it this,that , or anything . We call it
weight management. In yourpractice, you probably talk to
people all the time about theirnutrition. What tips do you
give them and that you couldleave our listeners with mm-hmm
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yeah. So as you pointed outearlier, one of the tips for
sure is shopping at theperimeter of the store. That is
where you're going to be mostlikely to encounter some of
those less ultra processed fooditems. The ultra processed
foods tend to live in thecenter of the store, and those
are the things that are inboxes and have a long
(24:28):
ingredient label. Uh, the otherthing is, when you're shopping,
go in prepared. You know, havea a list, know what you're
going in for. And then ofcourse, as we have all heard,
but it's really important,don't shop hungry because our
hunger hormones are powerful.
(24:50):
It it , this is not aboutwillpower. Those hormones send
a very powerful and potentmessage to our brains. So you
wanna have a game plan, go inand follow the play that helps
you to be able to be reallyintentional about what you're
purchasing,
Speaker 2 (25:06):
What great advice for people next time you go
grocery shopping, or next timeyou're planning your family's
food for the week. I thinkwe've picked up a lot of great
tips today from you, Dr.
Galloway Gilliam . So thank youfor being on the show .
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And I encourage listeners to , you know,
compare the labels andhopefully you've learned
something today to help youwhen you do compare those
labels. We've been talking withDr. Aisha Galloway Gim . She is
the director of theComprehensive Weight Management
Center at Hennepin Healthcare.
And a friend and colleague ofmine here, listeners, thanks
for joining us and I hopeyou'll join us in two weeks
time for our next episode. Andin the meantime, be healthy. Be
(25:41):
well.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Thanks for listening to the Healthy Matters podcast
with Dr. David Hilden . To findout more about the Healthy
Matters podcast or browse thearchive, visit healthy
matters.org. Got a question ora comment for the show, email
us at Healthy matters@hcme.orgor call 6 1 2 8 7 3 talk.
There's also a link in the shownotes. The Healthy Matters
(26:06):
Podcast is made possible byHennepin Healthcare in
Minneapolis, Minnesota, andengineered and produced by John
Lucas At Highball ExecutiveProducers are Jonathan , CTO
and Christine Hill . Pleaseremember, we can only give
general medical advice duringthis program, and every case is
unique. We urge you to consultwith your physician if you have
a more serious or pressinghealth concern. Until next
(26:27):
time, be healthy and be well.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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