October 31, 2024 • 17 mins
Attorney Bernie Brown joins Dr. Choctaw in an intense discussion on voting requirements, suppression concerns, and the evolving landscape of electoral ethics. What new changes and tactics are shaping the path forward? This is a must-listen for those invested in preserving democracy and understanding their rights.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Coming up on this episode of theHealthy, Wealthy, and Wise podcast.
Well, let's see.
Let's see here.
Well, a couple of things, actually,you were speaking about him being the
evil one, being a convicted felon.
He would be, if he were elected, hewould be prohibited from entering about
38 different countries as a felon.
(00:21):
Really?
Okay.
I didn't know that.
Includes Canada, Japan,Australia, New Zealand.
In the UK just to name a few . He wouldact, he would be prohibited from that.
And those, one of those twofamous papers that failed to
(00:43):
endorse either candidate, right?
Them broke the Watergate scandal.
Yes, they did.
Yes.
Welcome to the Healthy, wealthyand Wise Podcast, a podcast that
provides actionable informationand tools you can use to live a
more healthy, wealthy, and well.
This is the Special Brothersin Law edition featuring Dr.
(01:04):
William T.
Chonka, MD, and attorney Bernie Brown,a former Los Angeles City prosecutor.
Let's join the conversation.
Yes,
but, you know, it's amazing because thename calling, the bullying, it's gotten
to a point where it's being rewarded.
And being accepted by so manypeople, the vulgarity is just, it's
(01:30):
horrible.
I agree.
And it's coming from one main source.
You know, people are following theleaders coming from one main source.
But one of the things I findencouraging, and I didn't think I
would see, is the large number ofstaunch Republicans who are standing
up, members of the military who arestanding up, And saying this is wrong.
(01:50):
Um, and even though we're goingto put country over party, put
country over party, that this isnot a Democrat or Republican issue.
And I've been both in my lifetime.
I've been in the Republican party.
I've been in the Democratic party and,but saying this is something different.
This is, this is somethingwe haven't seen before.
Yes.
And I think it is honorable that LizCheney and even her dad Well, I have
(02:14):
not been a fan of for a number ofyears because of the previous wars and
stuff, but even he stood up and said,no, even, you know, this is wrong.
Yes.
Uh, that's absolutely right.
I'm so proud of these peoplestanding up for what's right.
Yes.
You know, it's not a, at somepoint it gets to the point
(02:34):
where it's not about party.
It's not about winning.
It's about just what is right.
Exactly.
I'm absolutely proud of thesepeople and I've said it before
and I'll just say it again.
I'm afraid of both consequences.
I'm afraid that if Trump loses, he will.
Insurrection.
(02:55):
Certainly he will try to cause, youknow, like he did before he'll get people
all riled up and there'll be violence.
I think there is a strongprobability, probability that if
he loses, there will be violence.
No, go ahead.
Good.
On the other hand, I think if hewins, I think inevitably You know he
(03:20):
falls out with everybody over time.
Oh yeah.
And I just don't want to see thatday when he falls out with Putin
and starts calling Putin names.
Well see I worry less about that becauseI think if he loses he will be in jail.
There are a number of cases outthere that he's very selectively been
(03:43):
able to use his attorneys to delayand delay and certain people in the
judiciary, who I won't name, but, butwho may or will be a little suspect.
But the last time he created havoc waswhen he was in power in, in Washington.
He is not in power.
He's trying to get back to where he was.
And my point is, if heloses, he won't get back.
(04:05):
He won't give it.
He will be a convicted felon.
Uh, he won't be able tovote in certain places.
And I think his wholepower will be diminished.
Now he's not going to go away completely.
And the people who followhim won't go away completely.
But I, I'm not concerned that it's goingto be anything near what January 6th was.
I'm hoping you're right.
(04:26):
You are a brilliant man.
So I'm hoping you're right.
I go back to this entirely differentsubject, but I go back to the years
when I was a young man and there weretanks driving down the street and
they were saying, burn baby, burn.
I was on the radio.
I remember that.
(04:47):
The Watts riots.
Yes.
And it was like, man,I couldn't believe it.
Military tanks driving down thestreet down Vermont Avenue, you
know, burning up and looting andfires and all of this and they're
like, No, I don't believe this.
Well, I can tell you I was in 1968.
(05:07):
I was in college.
I was a junior in college.
And believe it or not, I had been electedto student council president elect.
In 1968, and this was April of 1968.
And I never forget, you know, that wasan assassination that had occurred.
And that, you know, there were rideseverywhere, all over the place.
(05:28):
And, and the, the Dean of students came tome and said, you know, we, we've got these
tanks, then we had tanks on our campuson a car, cause they were concerned about
the colleges, particularly the HBCUs.
And he said, the Dean of studentssaid, you are the city as a
student council president.
And I said, no, sir, I'm sittinga student council president elect.
(05:50):
And he said, well, the presidenthas just stepped down because he
says he's a senior and he's done.
That's exactly what he said.
But I learned, I can tell you,I learned some very important
lessons that in the midst of allthat fear and anger and confusion.
(06:13):
You can find common ground and basicallyall they needed me to do was to go
with the leadership of the universitydowntown to the city in the deep
south to meet with the representativesof the city in the deep south to
let them know that at my college weweren't going to do anything crazy.
And they needed to hear itfrom a student representative.
(06:34):
And I basically didn't say verymuch, I just listened to the adults
in the room talk or whatever.
But my point is, it gave me hope.
It gave me hope that no matter howdark things look, you can find some
people who can walk to the middleof the room or the middle of the
field and sit down and have a decentconversation and come up with a solution.
(06:55):
You are fantastic.
Those people do exist.
I'd vote for you
any day.
I'm not running for anything.
You got my vote, buddy.
I just always say like, like you,I have kids and grandkids, so I'm
gonna, I'm gonna turn all thisover to my kids and grandkids.
(07:16):
I, I, you know,
I'm at the end of my rope, but we'll see.
And certainly we will, we willhave a conversation next month.
Well, after November 5th, and wecan sort of see where, where things
are and where the country is.
Sounds great, man.
Thank you for having me.
(07:36):
It's been a wonderful conversation.
Well, thank you as always forcoming and you're always so grateful
and so kind to us to share yourvery, very precious time with us.
Before we let you go, Jesse, didyou have any questions for Attorney
Brown before we let him go?
Well, let's see.
Let's see here.
Well, a couple of things, actually.
(07:57):
You were speaking about him being theevil one, being a convicted felon.
Um, he would be, if he were elected.
He will be prohibited from enteringabout 38 different countries as a felon.
And this includes Canada, Japan,Australia, New Zealand, and
(08:21):
the UK, just to name a few.
He will be prohibited from that.
And those, one of those two famous Papersthat failed to endorse either candidate.
Right.
Broke the Watergate scandal.
Yes, they did.
Yes.
(08:42):
And Woodward and Bernstein, butparticularly Woodward was very critical.
Um, of that organization, but the theoryis that if one, if this person were to
win, he would just make it all go away,you know, he'd, he'd, he'd fire Jack Smith
and he'd, he'd, he'd get rid of all that.
Well, he can make the federalcases go away, but not state.
(09:03):
That's true.
That's true.
You're
right.
He can make a lot of it goaway, but not all of it.
That's true.
Some of the charges arestate related charges.
Right, right.
Would not go away.
Right.
Good point.
Good point.
Good point.
Yes, it'll be interesting as I keepsaying, but it will be interesting.
(09:23):
That would be great, wouldn't it?
Like, Oh no, you can't come and hug me.
But
we're not allowing you Based on our rules
Brother Bernie, did you ask did youexplain kind of what the original
purpose of the Electoral College was?
(09:44):
Well, it started off and it's stillone of the arguments that's made under
modern day circumstances And that isthat it started off to protect The
smaller states and there is a slightlyracial side to it because the South
historically, you know, blacks were notallowed to vote and we're not counted as
(10:09):
part of the population or we're countedas only three fifths of the population.
So the South felt as though, Oh,we're getting, we're getting kind of.
The steep end of the deal here weget because we are getting a true
count for our true population.
Well, it's kind of their own fault,but in any event, so this was part of
(10:30):
a compromise to a certain degree due tocreate the electoral college to protect.
the ability of states to independentlycast their votes and to be
represented on a national level.
It was felt at some point that if you hada situation where it was totally majority
(10:53):
rule that that would take away protectionsand create a tyranny, shall we say, of,
against the minorities, that, that themajority could basically overwhelm and
dominate the minorities, and so, it waskind of all the reverse arguments, but the
primary historical context was the, of thecreation, was to protect smaller states,
(11:20):
and to protect their ability to be heard.
The, as you know, the other sideof the argument is That you want
to protect the overall population.
And the president should not be committedto any individual states, but should be
committed on behalf of the individualpopulation of each individual person.
(11:46):
And so, you know, the arguments,they sway back and forth.
But it primarily came from the ideato protect the southern states.
So that their voice would be heard.
through an electoral college process.
Well, along those lines, what areyour thoughts on the electoral college
(12:08):
being a form of voter suppression,especially in those Southern states?
I don't, I don't see it as a, a form of.
Suppression.
I mean, it, it has urging the vote.
Well, I think people are going togo out there and vote and they, and
they've been encouraged to vote.
(12:29):
They're going to vote and they,their votes will be counted.
At least the votes that they vote forthe slate of their electors in each
individual state because they're votingactually for a slate of electors.
And so their votes will be counted.
In that regard.
And so, uh, I'm not sure thatit's used to thwart the vote.
(12:54):
It does, as I, as I referredto tangentially earlier, it
does to some degree distort it.
And disproportionately represent the vote.
That's the reason why we've hada situation where a candidate
who has won the popular vote, themajority vote has actually lost
(13:15):
the election
through the electoral collegebecause it's the representation, the
representation, I should say, is notlike one to one in the electoral college.
In a smaller state, a candidate,an elector, might represent
a few thousand people.
(13:36):
In a larger state, therepresentative might represent
tens of thousands of persons.
That's one per tens of thousands versusone per a few thousand, which means that
that candidate Or electorate, I shouldsay, who represents the smaller state has
disproportionately more representation.
(13:58):
And that's what results in an electionbase that's contrary to the popular vote.
Like I said earlier, you could see asituation where 11 states determine
the actual election of presidency.
But, you know what?
You could see a situation where it'sthe bottom of the ninth inning, there's
(14:20):
two outs, the bases are loaded, andthe team that's, uh, that has two outs
against it is about to lose the game.
And then there's a grand slamhome run that saves the game.
Actually, it's the bottomof the 10th inning.
It's never happened before.
Well, it's got to be interesting.
(14:42):
It's got to be interesting.
I'm
talking about the Dodgers and the Yankees.
I'm not sure whether youguys follow the basics.
I got
that one.
I did not get that one.
I said, okay.
You see, I could hear like,what is he talking about?
I was like, oh, yeah.
The point is, once inhistory, something happens.
(15:03):
Yes, yes, that's true,but once in history,
and people are having, we'rehaving record voting right now, you
know, from Georgia and some of theother places in the South, right?
Yeah, you're right.
Parting thought for me, thankGod for attorneys like attorney
Bernie Brown and Mark Elias.
(15:23):
That's it.
Okay,
well, thank you.
Thank God for you and for Dr.
Choctaw
and for
Kamala.
So, Bernard, do you have any partingcomments for us as we let you go
to enjoy the rest of your day?
(15:45):
I will just quote from avery famous former president.
Keep hope alive.
Good
point.
Good point.
I completely agree with that.
Thank you as always, sir, forbeing so gracious with you.
Very precious time.
And, uh, please enjoy the rest ofyour day and we'll, we'll be back
(16:06):
in touch in about 30 days or so.
See where things stand.
Thank you for having me.
And we await
the results.
Indeed.
Indeed.
Take care.
All right.
God bless you too.
You've been listening to the healthy,wealthy, and wise podcast, the special
brothers in law edition, featuring Dr.
(16:27):
William T.
Choctaw MD and attorney Bernie Brown,a former Los Angeles city prosecutor.
We value you as a listener and your views.
You can connect with.
Or gentlemen@www.th wwp.com.
That's at www.thwwp.com.
(16:49):
Click on the contact linkand we'll respond to you.
While you are there, check out theother past episodes, blogs, and books.
In the meantime, be the changeyou want to see in the world.
This is The Healthy, wealthy,and Wise Podcast with Dr.
William t Choctaw, MD JD.
A production of ChangemakersCommunications, LLC.
Coming up on this episode of theHealthy, Wealthy, and Wise podcast.
Well, let's see.
Let's see here.
Well, a couple of things, actually,you were speaking about him being the
evil one, being a convicted felon.
He would be, if he were elected, hewould be prohibited from entering about
38 different countries as a felon.
(00:21):
Really?
Okay.
I didn't know that.
Includes Canada, Japan,Australia, New Zealand.
In the UK just to name a few . He wouldact, he would be prohibited from that.
And those, one of those twofamous papers that failed to
(00:43):
endorse either candidate, right?
Them broke the Watergate scandal.
Yes, they did.
Yes.
Welcome to the Healthy, wealthyand Wise Podcast, a podcast that
provides actionable informationand tools you can use to live a
more healthy, wealthy, and well.
This is the Special Brothersin Law edition featuring Dr.
(01:04):
William T.
Chonka, MD, and attorney Bernie Brown,a former Los Angeles City prosecutor.
Let's join the conversation.
Yes,
but, you know, it's amazing because thename calling, the bullying, it's gotten
to a point where it's being rewarded.
And being accepted by so manypeople, the vulgarity is just, it's
(01:30):
horrible.
I agree.
And it's coming from one main source.
You know, people are following theleaders coming from one main source.
But one of the things I findencouraging, and I didn't think I
would see, is the large number ofstaunch Republicans who are standing
up, members of the military who arestanding up, And saying this is wrong.
(01:50):
Um, and even though we're goingto put country over party, put
country over party, that this isnot a Democrat or Republican issue.
And I've been both in my lifetime.
I've been in the Republican party.
I've been in the Democratic party and,but saying this is something different.
This is, this is somethingwe haven't seen before.
Yes.
And I think it is honorable that LizCheney and even her dad Well, I have
(02:14):
not been a fan of for a number ofyears because of the previous wars and
stuff, but even he stood up and said,no, even, you know, this is wrong.
Yes.
Uh, that's absolutely right.
I'm so proud of these peoplestanding up for what's right.
Yes.
You know, it's not a, at somepoint it gets to the point
(02:34):
where it's not about party.
It's not about winning.
It's about just what is right.
Exactly.
I'm absolutely proud of thesepeople and I've said it before
and I'll just say it again.
I'm afraid of both consequences.
I'm afraid that if Trump loses, he will.
Insurrection.
(02:55):
Certainly he will try to cause, youknow, like he did before he'll get people
all riled up and there'll be violence.
I think there is a strongprobability, probability that if
he loses, there will be violence.
No, go ahead.
Good.
On the other hand, I think if hewins, I think inevitably You know he
(03:20):
falls out with everybody over time.
Oh yeah.
And I just don't want to see thatday when he falls out with Putin
and starts calling Putin names.
Well see I worry less about that becauseI think if he loses he will be in jail.
There are a number of cases outthere that he's very selectively been
(03:43):
able to use his attorneys to delayand delay and certain people in the
judiciary, who I won't name, but, butwho may or will be a little suspect.
But the last time he created havoc waswhen he was in power in, in Washington.
He is not in power.
He's trying to get back to where he was.
And my point is, if heloses, he won't get back.
(04:05):
He won't give it.
He will be a convicted felon.
Uh, he won't be able tovote in certain places.
And I think his wholepower will be diminished.
Now he's not going to go away completely.
And the people who followhim won't go away completely.
But I, I'm not concerned that it's goingto be anything near what January 6th was.
I'm hoping you're right.
(04:26):
You are a brilliant man.
So I'm hoping you're right.
I go back to this entirely differentsubject, but I go back to the years
when I was a young man and there weretanks driving down the street and
they were saying, burn baby, burn.
I was on the radio.
I remember that.
(04:47):
The Watts riots.
Yes.
And it was like, man,I couldn't believe it.
Military tanks driving down thestreet down Vermont Avenue, you
know, burning up and looting andfires and all of this and they're
like, No, I don't believe this.
Well, I can tell you I was in 1968.
(05:07):
I was in college.
I was a junior in college.
And believe it or not, I had been electedto student council president elect.
In 1968, and this was April of 1968.
And I never forget, you know, that wasan assassination that had occurred.
And that, you know, there were rideseverywhere, all over the place.
(05:28):
And, and the, the Dean of students came tome and said, you know, we, we've got these
tanks, then we had tanks on our campuson a car, cause they were concerned about
the colleges, particularly the HBCUs.
And he said, the Dean of studentssaid, you are the city as a
student council president.
And I said, no, sir, I'm sittinga student council president elect.
(05:50):
And he said, well, the presidenthas just stepped down because he
says he's a senior and he's done.
That's exactly what he said.
But I learned, I can tell you,I learned some very important
lessons that in the midst of allthat fear and anger and confusion.
(06:13):
You can find common ground and basicallyall they needed me to do was to go
with the leadership of the universitydowntown to the city in the deep
south to meet with the representativesof the city in the deep south to
let them know that at my college weweren't going to do anything crazy.
And they needed to hear itfrom a student representative.
(06:34):
And I basically didn't say verymuch, I just listened to the adults
in the room talk or whatever.
But my point is, it gave me hope.
It gave me hope that no matter howdark things look, you can find some
people who can walk to the middleof the room or the middle of the
field and sit down and have a decentconversation and come up with a solution.
(06:55):
You are fantastic.
Those people do exist.
I'd vote for you
any day.
I'm not running for anything.
You got my vote, buddy.
I just always say like, like you,I have kids and grandkids, so I'm
gonna, I'm gonna turn all thisover to my kids and grandkids.
(07:16):
I, I, you know,
I'm at the end of my rope, but we'll see.
And certainly we will, we willhave a conversation next month.
Well, after November 5th, and wecan sort of see where, where things
are and where the country is.
Sounds great, man.
Thank you for having me.
(07:36):
It's been a wonderful conversation.
Well, thank you as always forcoming and you're always so grateful
and so kind to us to share yourvery, very precious time with us.
Before we let you go, Jesse, didyou have any questions for Attorney
Brown before we let him go?
Well, let's see.
Let's see here.
Well, a couple of things, actually.
(07:57):
You were speaking about him being theevil one, being a convicted felon.
Um, he would be, if he were elected.
He will be prohibited from enteringabout 38 different countries as a felon.
And this includes Canada, Japan,Australia, New Zealand, and
(08:21):
the UK, just to name a few.
He will be prohibited from that.
And those, one of those two famous Papersthat failed to endorse either candidate.
Right.
Broke the Watergate scandal.
Yes, they did.
Yes.
(08:42):
And Woodward and Bernstein, butparticularly Woodward was very critical.
Um, of that organization, but the theoryis that if one, if this person were to
win, he would just make it all go away,you know, he'd, he'd, he'd fire Jack Smith
and he'd, he'd, he'd get rid of all that.
Well, he can make the federalcases go away, but not state.
(09:03):
That's true.
That's true.
You're
right.
He can make a lot of it goaway, but not all of it.
That's true.
Some of the charges arestate related charges.
Right, right.
Would not go away.
Right.
Good point.
Good point.
Good point.
Yes, it'll be interesting as I keepsaying, but it will be interesting.
(09:23):
That would be great, wouldn't it?
Like, Oh no, you can't come and hug me.
But
we're not allowing you Based on our rules
Brother Bernie, did you ask did youexplain kind of what the original
purpose of the Electoral College was?
(09:44):
Well, it started off and it's stillone of the arguments that's made under
modern day circumstances And that isthat it started off to protect The
smaller states and there is a slightlyracial side to it because the South
historically, you know, blacks were notallowed to vote and we're not counted as
(10:09):
part of the population or we're countedas only three fifths of the population.
So the South felt as though, Oh,we're getting, we're getting kind of.
The steep end of the deal here weget because we are getting a true
count for our true population.
Well, it's kind of their own fault,but in any event, so this was part of
(10:30):
a compromise to a certain degree due tocreate the electoral college to protect.
the ability of states to independentlycast their votes and to be
represented on a national level.
It was felt at some point that if you hada situation where it was totally majority
(10:53):
rule that that would take away protectionsand create a tyranny, shall we say, of,
against the minorities, that, that themajority could basically overwhelm and
dominate the minorities, and so, it waskind of all the reverse arguments, but the
primary historical context was the, of thecreation, was to protect smaller states,
(11:20):
and to protect their ability to be heard.
The, as you know, the other sideof the argument is That you want
to protect the overall population.
And the president should not be committedto any individual states, but should be
committed on behalf of the individualpopulation of each individual person.
(11:46):
And so, you know, the arguments,they sway back and forth.
But it primarily came from the ideato protect the southern states.
So that their voice would be heard.
through an electoral college process.
Well, along those lines, what areyour thoughts on the electoral college
(12:08):
being a form of voter suppression,especially in those Southern states?
I don't, I don't see it as a, a form of.
Suppression.
I mean, it, it has urging the vote.
Well, I think people are going togo out there and vote and they, and
they've been encouraged to vote.
(12:29):
They're going to vote and they,their votes will be counted.
At least the votes that they vote forthe slate of their electors in each
individual state because they're votingactually for a slate of electors.
And so their votes will be counted.
In that regard.
And so, uh, I'm not sure thatit's used to thwart the vote.
(12:54):
It does, as I, as I referredto tangentially earlier, it
does to some degree distort it.
And disproportionately represent the vote.
That's the reason why we've hada situation where a candidate
who has won the popular vote, themajority vote has actually lost
(13:15):
the election
through the electoral collegebecause it's the representation, the
representation, I should say, is notlike one to one in the electoral college.
In a smaller state, a candidate,an elector, might represent
a few thousand people.
(13:36):
In a larger state, therepresentative might represent
tens of thousands of persons.
That's one per tens of thousands versusone per a few thousand, which means that
that candidate Or electorate, I shouldsay, who represents the smaller state has
disproportionately more representation.
(13:58):
And that's what results in an electionbase that's contrary to the popular vote.
Like I said earlier, you could see asituation where 11 states determine
the actual election of presidency.
But, you know what?
You could see a situation where it'sthe bottom of the ninth inning, there's
(14:20):
two outs, the bases are loaded, andthe team that's, uh, that has two outs
against it is about to lose the game.
And then there's a grand slamhome run that saves the game.
Actually, it's the bottomof the 10th inning.
It's never happened before.
Well, it's got to be interesting.
(14:42):
It's got to be interesting.
I'm
talking about the Dodgers and the Yankees.
I'm not sure whether youguys follow the basics.
I got
that one.
I did not get that one.
I said, okay.
You see, I could hear like,what is he talking about?
I was like, oh, yeah.
The point is, once inhistory, something happens.
(15:03):
Yes, yes, that's true,but once in history,
and people are having, we'rehaving record voting right now, you
know, from Georgia and some of theother places in the South, right?
Yeah, you're right.
Parting thought for me, thankGod for attorneys like attorney
Bernie Brown and Mark Elias.
(15:23):
That's it.
Okay,
well, thank you.
Thank God for you and for Dr.
Choctaw
and for
Kamala.
So, Bernard, do you have any partingcomments for us as we let you go
to enjoy the rest of your day?
(15:45):
I will just quote from avery famous former president.
Keep hope alive.
Good
point.
Good point.
I completely agree with that.
Thank you as always, sir, forbeing so gracious with you.
Very precious time.
And, uh, please enjoy the rest ofyour day and we'll, we'll be back
(16:06):
in touch in about 30 days or so.
See where things stand.
Thank you for having me.
And we await
the results.
Indeed.
Indeed.
Take care.
All right.
God bless you too.
You've been listening to the healthy,wealthy, and wise podcast, the special
brothers in law edition, featuring Dr.
(16:27):
William T.
Choctaw MD and attorney Bernie Brown,a former Los Angeles city prosecutor.
We value you as a listener and your views.
You can connect with.
Or gentlemen@www.th wwp.com.
That's at www.thwwp.com.
(16:49):
Click on the contact linkand we'll respond to you.
While you are there, check out theother past episodes, blogs, and books.
In the meantime, be the changeyou want to see in the world.
This is The Healthy, wealthy,and Wise Podcast with Dr.
William t Choctaw, MD JD.
A production of ChangemakersCommunications, LLC.
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