This episode dives into the inner workings of the U.S. Electoral College, featuring Attorney Bernie Brown and Dr. William T. Choctaw. From its origins to its controversial role today, we unravel how each vote impacts our democracy and why the Electoral College might not be changing anytime soon. Essential for anyone curious about the power behind the presidency.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Coming up on this episodeof the Healthy, Wealthy, and
Wise podcast, the electoralcollege decides who becomes
president of the United States.
When you vote for a candidate forpresident of the United States, you are
actually voting for a slate of electors.
(00:22):
That represent the candidate that youvoted for now each state Has a designated
number of electors Usually based on
welcome to the healthy wealthy andwise podcast a podcast that provides
actionable information And tools youcan use to live a more healthy wealthy
(00:42):
and wise life This is the specialbrothers in law edition featuring.
Dr William t.
Choctaw md and attorney bernieround a former law Well,
ladies and gentlemen, we are absolutelydelighted to have our favorite attorney
with us today, attorney Bernie Brown.
(01:04):
And as we have been doing for thelast few months, we decided that
this is the way we would educateour listeners about the election.
We, we.
I decided to have a legal professorto sort of come in and sort of sort
of give us insights and direction andclarity, if you will, about what's going
(01:27):
on and, and what we need to know and.
And to answer our importantquestions, one of the things that
we decided that we would talk abouttoday is the Electoral College.
I think most of our listeners arefamiliar with Attorney Brown, but just
to, for those who may not be, in additionto being a distinguished attorney in
(01:49):
the past and prior to his retirement,he was assistant district attorney.
Is that correct?
Assistant City Attorney,yes sir, for the City of Los
Angeles, for the City of Los Angeles.
And one of the things that I likeabout Attorney Brown's claim to fame
is that he went to the same law schoolas Vice President Kamala Harris, that
distinguishes Hastings Law School,
(02:09):
Hastings College of the Law, nowknown as University of California Law.
San Francisco.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
Cause I, I wanted to make surethat I got the right name in there.
So that that's another reason why we aresort of interested in sort of getting
a peek inside of attorney Brown's brainabout these different important issues.
(02:31):
And that adds to the relevance, ifyou will, or a special treat for our
listeners as we get legal advice.
So we just about said, Brother Brown,why don't you tell us what exactly
is the Electoral College and whyis there so much interest in it?
Thank you for having me.
That's really a great questionand it's so topical with the
(02:53):
presidential election coming up.
Everybody's talking about the electoralcollege and you know, the amazing
thing is some people are criticizingit saying it's It's outdated, and
antiquated, and undemocratic, andunfair, and forces majority rule,
and it just goes on, and on, and on.
(03:15):
And you know the amazing thing is,most people, when they take polls,
do not favor the electoral college.
They want to get
rid of it.
Is that right?
Okay.
It
has survived on, and on, and on,and I'm here to tell you that I
don't think it's going anywhere.
Anytime soon,
you're probably right.
Well, the reason, in my opinion,the reason why is not going anywhere
(03:40):
soon is that if you get elected.
Pursuant to the electoral college,
right?
Then you have no incentive to changeit And if you lose under the electoral
college, you have no power to change
Okay,
so either way It's going to be around Ibelieve for a while It the interesting
(04:05):
thing before I tell you what it is.
Okay, interesting thing is whatwould it require to change it?
Yes, that's a good point.
Okay.
A constitutional amendment.
It would require a two thirds vote ofCongress and a three fourths vote of
all the states of the United Statesand it's just not going to happen.
(04:29):
That takes a lot.
That takes a lot.
Didn't something, wasn't that usedwith, with women, had to do with
the vote or something where allthe states or a certain percentage
of states had to approve it.
Maybe I'm thinking about something else.
And the electoral college is foundin the constitution, the 12th
(04:50):
amendment, found in article two,section one of the constitution.
And the constitution requires that ifyou basically want to change it, you
gotta have a vote of Congress and avote of the states to get an amendment.
That's difficult.
Yeah.
Yes.
So, I mean, there are someways that states are going
(05:12):
about trying to get around it.
Trying to circumvent it, but that'sprobably a long story maybe for
another day and another time rightnow It's not happening and the
interesting thing you asked thequestion What is the electoral college?
Yes,
and You know, reporters have goneout in public and asked people that
(05:36):
very question and a mass majority ofpeople cannot explain it when they ask
them, what is the electoral college?
They just kind of look like, Oh, well,and so it's really quite interesting.
The electoral college decides.
(05:56):
Who becomes president of the UnitedStates when you vote for a candidate
for president of the United States,you are actually voting for a
slate of electors that representthe candidate that you voted for.
Now each state has a designatednumber of electors usually based
(06:21):
on the population in that state.
Okay.
Oh, are you with me now?
Like I said, it's basedon the 12th amendment.
And what it is, and we're going tolook at it, an analysis of California
in just a moment as an example.
Each state gets two U.
S.
Senators, and each state getsa designated number of members.
(06:47):
In the house of reveries, I'm sorry,in the house of representatives
based on the number of U.
S.
congressional districts that havebeen allocated to that state.
Okay.
Now that let me break that down.
Okay.
Two U.
S.
representatives assigned to eachstate and each state based on its
population gets a designated numberof congressional representatives.
(07:11):
Right.
Let me give you an example.
The state of California.
Yes.
Assign two senators and 53 representativesin the house of representatives.
You
kind of find the largest state, right?
Largest state in the
state.
You combine that 53 with the twosenators and you get 55 electors
(07:34):
representing the The state of California.
So the same formula isapplied to every state.
Every state must that.
Now here's the interestinglittle small tidbit though.
Okay.
Every state must get at least three votes.
No matter how small interesting sosome very small stage very stage
(08:01):
with very low populations get aDisproportionate number of votes now.
Why is that?
Okay.
Well, it's written up in theConstitution It says that each state
must have a certain minimum numberof of electoral college votes.
Okay.
Very small states wind updisproportionately represented.
(08:24):
Now the interesting thing.
Here's the interesting point.
Okay,
it's 48 of the states except for Maineand Nebraska are winner take all states
winner take all Now, what does that mean?
Well, let's just use California onceagain as an example Let's say, when you
(08:48):
see, when you go to vote, you actually,like I mentioned earlier, you're
going to vote for a slate of electors.
Right.
Now, the Republicans have a slateand the Democrats have a slate.
If the Democratic candidate gets themajority of the votes, then their
slate gets represented, gets counted.
(09:09):
The losing slate does not count.
Represent the state.
Okay.
And
they do not get counted.
I'll explain a little furthermore, a little better later.
But basically it's almost like a winner.
It is what they call it.
Winner take all.
Okay.
So, so California, let's say 48percent of the population votes Kamala.
(09:38):
Okay.
And 52% Vote for Trump.
Okay.
Then Trump would win Californiaand take all of its electors.
Got it.
That's why it's important to win inevery state, uh, to win your state.
Right.
Because the losing candidate,their candidates, their
(10:01):
electors do not get counted.
But you see what eventually happensis on January 5th, the electors go
to Congress and cast their vote.
Um, on behalf of the candidates thathave won in their state, at least
they're supposed to cast their vote.
Well, I was going to, are theyobligated to do that or are
(10:22):
there loopholes there too?
There's a new Supreme Court case thatsays, if your state has a law that
requires you to vote for the winningcandidate, then you must cast that vote
on behalf of the winning candidate.
Okay.
So most states have that.
(10:42):
Law, but, and, and generally it hasn'tbeen an issue what's become, as you know,
at the last election, as we all know, atthe last election, what became an issue
is the electors from each state wentto Congress and they cast their vote.
And then there was a Theexisting president is, Oh,
(11:05):
no, there, this isn't right.
There, there, there's fraud.
The election has been stolen.
Urge Congress not to certifythe votes from the various
states and then tried to urge.
The vice president notto certify the vote.
(11:26):
Now, that didn't happen.
Fortunately, the people in power,shall we say, follow the constitution,
follow the law and refused to,well, how would you say it?
Dr.
Choctaw.
Uh, to upset the, uh, subvertthe system of democracy.
(11:49):
Let me ask you a question on that.
Now, members of Congress are alsorunning for re election, correct?
Particularly in the House.
Yes, but they are, theyare by direct vote.
Okay, okay.
So, there is a vote of the population.
Whoever wins the majority of thevote, Wednesday, their election.
(12:10):
Who decides the
presidential election?
Is that the new Congressor the old Congress?
Well, it's the existingCongress of Congress.
Doesn't decide technically Congressis only supposed to certify
the votes that are reported tothem from the various states.
They're supposed to exertassert independent authority.
(12:34):
Okay.
Or to try to, or to circumventor to overcome the process.
So when states come forward andyou'll be hearing that, you actually
hear it on election night on aNovember, on November 5th, when all
the states are casting their votes.
So we'll know a lot sooner thanJanuary the 5th, but on, on November.
(12:57):
The fifth, you will hear the state there.
The state of California cast, its 55votes for president, for Kamala Harris,
Kamala Harris as the next president ofthe, you know, United States of America.
And they'll be going through each stateover, uh, each day, one by one by one.
(13:18):
Okay?
And, and, and so that should decide it.
And here's an interesting little fact.
Okay.
Interesting.
Did you know that the 11 biggestmost populated states could
actually control the election?
(13:38):
Can it win from just the 11?
Largest states.
I mean, these are the battlegroundstates we hear about, or these
are not the battleground states.
Okay.
Okay.
States with the most membersof the electoral college.
Say this is California has 55 electoralelectors is what they're called.
Florida has 30, New York has 28, Texashas 40 Ohio has 17, North Carolina
(14:03):
has 16, Illinois has 17, I'm sorry,Pennsylvania has 19, Georgia has 16,
Michigan has 15, and New Jersey has 14.
When you put those all together,you get more than 270 votes.
That's a majority of all of theelectorates for all of the states.
(14:25):
That would win the election.
But when they talk
about battleground states, theytalk about like five or six states.
They don't talk about that many.
Yes.
The thing about the battleground statesis that they're close, they're so close.
And so nobody, the question becomeswho's going to win those states
(14:45):
and those become more critical.
You see, California isa foregone conclusion.
Right.
It's gone a Democrat foryears and like Texas has gone
Republican, right?
Texas is going Republican.
So there's certain states that arenot considered battleground states.
They know pretty much they havea history of going a certain way.
(15:09):
All of the polls show they'regoing to go a certain way.
So there's not a question ofwhich way they're going to vote.
But those swing states are the ones thatare very close where they're saying,
well, we don't really know who's goingto win the swing states this year, 2024,
Arizona, 11 electoral votes, Georgia, 16,Michigan, 15, Nevada, six, North Carolina,
(15:30):
six, Pennsylvania, 19, Wisconsin, 10.
That's 93.
93 electoral votes in, in, in,I'm sorry, seven swing states.
Got it.
It can
change the election.
So, you know, it gets, thisstuff is, is really exciting.
(15:52):
You know, I listen to some peopleand they say, Well, I can't,
I can't listen to it anymore.
And
then I hear people on both sidessaying, well, if the other Canada
wins, I'm leaving the country.
I hear people on the otherside saying, okay, goodbye.
(16:14):
You've been listening to the healthy,wealthy and wise podcast, the special
brothers in law edition featuring Dr.
William T.
Chonkdorf, MD and attorney Bernie Brown,a former Los Angeles city prosecutor.
We value you as a listener and your views.
So you can connect witheither gentleman at www.
(16:34):
thwwp.
com.
That's at www.
thwwp.
com.
Click on the contact link and we'llrespond to you while you're there.
Check out the other past episodes,blogs, and books in the meantime, be
the change you want to see in the world.
(16:56):
This is the healthy.
Wealthy and Wise Podcast with Dr.
William T.
Choctaw, M.
D., J.
D.
A production of ChangemakersCommunications, LLC.
Coming up on this episodeof the Healthy, Wealthy, and
Wise podcast, the electoralcollege decides who becomes
president of the United States.
When you vote for a candidate forpresident of the United States, you are
actually voting for a slate of electors.
(00:22):
That represent the candidate that youvoted for now each state Has a designated
number of electors Usually based on
welcome to the healthy wealthy andwise podcast a podcast that provides
actionable information And tools youcan use to live a more healthy wealthy
(00:42):
and wise life This is the specialbrothers in law edition featuring.
Dr William t.
Choctaw md and attorney bernieround a former law Well,
ladies and gentlemen, we are absolutelydelighted to have our favorite attorney
with us today, attorney Bernie Brown.
(01:04):
And as we have been doing for thelast few months, we decided that
this is the way we would educateour listeners about the election.
We, we.
I decided to have a legal professorto sort of come in and sort of sort
of give us insights and direction andclarity, if you will, about what's going
(01:27):
on and, and what we need to know and.
And to answer our importantquestions, one of the things that
we decided that we would talk abouttoday is the Electoral College.
I think most of our listeners arefamiliar with Attorney Brown, but just
to, for those who may not be, in additionto being a distinguished attorney in
(01:49):
the past and prior to his retirement,he was assistant district attorney.
Is that correct?
Assistant City Attorney,yes sir, for the City of Los
Angeles, for the City of Los Angeles.
And one of the things that I likeabout Attorney Brown's claim to fame
is that he went to the same law schoolas Vice President Kamala Harris, that
distinguishes Hastings Law School,
(02:09):
Hastings College of the Law, nowknown as University of California Law.
San Francisco.
Okay.
Thank you very much.
Cause I, I wanted to make surethat I got the right name in there.
So that that's another reason why we aresort of interested in sort of getting
a peek inside of attorney Brown's brainabout these different important issues.
(02:31):
And that adds to the relevance, ifyou will, or a special treat for our
listeners as we get legal advice.
So we just about said, Brother Brown,why don't you tell us what exactly
is the Electoral College and whyis there so much interest in it?
Thank you for having me.
That's really a great questionand it's so topical with the
(02:53):
presidential election coming up.
Everybody's talking about the electoralcollege and you know, the amazing
thing is some people are criticizingit saying it's It's outdated, and
antiquated, and undemocratic, andunfair, and forces majority rule,
and it just goes on, and on, and on.
(03:15):
And you know the amazing thing is,most people, when they take polls,
do not favor the electoral college.
They want to get
rid of it.
Is that right?
Okay.
It
has survived on, and on, and on,and I'm here to tell you that I
don't think it's going anywhere.
Anytime soon,
you're probably right.
Well, the reason, in my opinion,the reason why is not going anywhere
(03:40):
soon is that if you get elected.
Pursuant to the electoral college,
right?
Then you have no incentive to changeit And if you lose under the electoral
college, you have no power to change
Okay,
so either way It's going to be around Ibelieve for a while It the interesting
(04:05):
thing before I tell you what it is.
Okay, interesting thing is whatwould it require to change it?
Yes, that's a good point.
Okay.
A constitutional amendment.
It would require a two thirds vote ofCongress and a three fourths vote of
all the states of the United Statesand it's just not going to happen.
(04:29):
That takes a lot.
That takes a lot.
Didn't something, wasn't that usedwith, with women, had to do with
the vote or something where allthe states or a certain percentage
of states had to approve it.
Maybe I'm thinking about something else.
And the electoral college is foundin the constitution, the 12th
(04:50):
amendment, found in article two,section one of the constitution.
And the constitution requires that ifyou basically want to change it, you
gotta have a vote of Congress and avote of the states to get an amendment.
That's difficult.
Yeah.
Yes.
So, I mean, there are someways that states are going
(05:12):
about trying to get around it.
Trying to circumvent it, but that'sprobably a long story maybe for
another day and another time rightnow It's not happening and the
interesting thing you asked thequestion What is the electoral college?
Yes,
and You know, reporters have goneout in public and asked people that
(05:36):
very question and a mass majority ofpeople cannot explain it when they ask
them, what is the electoral college?
They just kind of look like, Oh, well,and so it's really quite interesting.
The electoral college decides.
(05:56):
Who becomes president of the UnitedStates when you vote for a candidate
for president of the United States,you are actually voting for a
slate of electors that representthe candidate that you voted for.
Now each state has a designatednumber of electors usually based
(06:21):
on the population in that state.
Okay.
Oh, are you with me now?
Like I said, it's basedon the 12th amendment.
And what it is, and we're going tolook at it, an analysis of California
in just a moment as an example.
Each state gets two U.
S.
Senators, and each state getsa designated number of members.
(06:47):
In the house of reveries, I'm sorry,in the house of representatives
based on the number of U.
S.
congressional districts that havebeen allocated to that state.
Okay.
Now that let me break that down.
Okay.
Two U.
S.
representatives assigned to eachstate and each state based on its
population gets a designated numberof congressional representatives.
(07:11):
Right.
Let me give you an example.
The state of California.
Yes.
Assign two senators and 53 representativesin the house of representatives.
You
kind of find the largest state, right?
Largest state in the
state.
You combine that 53 with the twosenators and you get 55 electors
(07:34):
representing the The state of California.
So the same formula isapplied to every state.
Every state must that.
Now here's the interestinglittle small tidbit though.
Okay.
Every state must get at least three votes.
No matter how small interesting sosome very small stage very stage
(08:01):
with very low populations get aDisproportionate number of votes now.
Why is that?
Okay.
Well, it's written up in theConstitution It says that each state
must have a certain minimum numberof of electoral college votes.
Okay.
Very small states wind updisproportionately represented.
(08:24):
Now the interesting thing.
Here's the interesting point.
Okay,
it's 48 of the states except for Maineand Nebraska are winner take all states
winner take all Now, what does that mean?
Well, let's just use California onceagain as an example Let's say, when you
(08:48):
see, when you go to vote, you actually,like I mentioned earlier, you're
going to vote for a slate of electors.
Right.
Now, the Republicans have a slateand the Democrats have a slate.
If the Democratic candidate gets themajority of the votes, then their
slate gets represented, gets counted.
(09:09):
The losing slate does not count.
Represent the state.
Okay.
And
they do not get counted.
I'll explain a little furthermore, a little better later.
But basically it's almost like a winner.
It is what they call it.
Winner take all.
Okay.
So, so California, let's say 48percent of the population votes Kamala.
(09:38):
Okay.
And 52% Vote for Trump.
Okay.
Then Trump would win Californiaand take all of its electors.
Got it.
That's why it's important to win inevery state, uh, to win your state.
Right.
Because the losing candidate,their candidates, their
(10:01):
electors do not get counted.
But you see what eventually happensis on January 5th, the electors go
to Congress and cast their vote.
Um, on behalf of the candidates thathave won in their state, at least
they're supposed to cast their vote.
Well, I was going to, are theyobligated to do that or are
(10:22):
there loopholes there too?
There's a new Supreme Court case thatsays, if your state has a law that
requires you to vote for the winningcandidate, then you must cast that vote
on behalf of the winning candidate.
Okay.
So most states have that.
(10:42):
Law, but, and, and generally it hasn'tbeen an issue what's become, as you know,
at the last election, as we all know, atthe last election, what became an issue
is the electors from each state wentto Congress and they cast their vote.
And then there was a Theexisting president is, Oh,
(11:05):
no, there, this isn't right.
There, there, there's fraud.
The election has been stolen.
Urge Congress not to certifythe votes from the various
states and then tried to urge.
The vice president notto certify the vote.
(11:26):
Now, that didn't happen.
Fortunately, the people in power,shall we say, follow the constitution,
follow the law and refused to,well, how would you say it?
Dr.
Choctaw.
Uh, to upset the, uh, subvertthe system of democracy.
(11:49):
Let me ask you a question on that.
Now, members of Congress are alsorunning for re election, correct?
Particularly in the House.
Yes, but they are, theyare by direct vote.
Okay, okay.
So, there is a vote of the population.
Whoever wins the majority of thevote, Wednesday, their election.
(12:10):
Who decides the
presidential election?
Is that the new Congressor the old Congress?
Well, it's the existingCongress of Congress.
Doesn't decide technically Congressis only supposed to certify
the votes that are reported tothem from the various states.
They're supposed to exertassert independent authority.
(12:34):
Okay.
Or to try to, or to circumventor to overcome the process.
So when states come forward andyou'll be hearing that, you actually
hear it on election night on aNovember, on November 5th, when all
the states are casting their votes.
So we'll know a lot sooner thanJanuary the 5th, but on, on November.
(12:57):
The fifth, you will hear the state there.
The state of California cast, its 55votes for president, for Kamala Harris,
Kamala Harris as the next president ofthe, you know, United States of America.
And they'll be going through each stateover, uh, each day, one by one by one.
(13:18):
Okay?
And, and, and so that should decide it.
And here's an interesting little fact.
Okay.
Interesting.
Did you know that the 11 biggestmost populated states could
actually control the election?
(13:38):
Can it win from just the 11?
Largest states.
I mean, these are the battlegroundstates we hear about, or these
are not the battleground states.
Okay.
Okay.
States with the most membersof the electoral college.
Say this is California has 55 electoralelectors is what they're called.
Florida has 30, New York has 28, Texashas 40 Ohio has 17, North Carolina
(14:03):
has 16, Illinois has 17, I'm sorry,Pennsylvania has 19, Georgia has 16,
Michigan has 15, and New Jersey has 14.
When you put those all together,you get more than 270 votes.
That's a majority of all of theelectorates for all of the states.
(14:25):
That would win the election.
But when they talk
about battleground states, theytalk about like five or six states.
They don't talk about that many.
Yes.
The thing about the battleground statesis that they're close, they're so close.
And so nobody, the question becomeswho's going to win those states
(14:45):
and those become more critical.
You see, California isa foregone conclusion.
Right.
It's gone a Democrat foryears and like Texas has gone
Republican, right?
Texas is going Republican.
So there's certain states that arenot considered battleground states.
They know pretty much they havea history of going a certain way.
(15:09):
All of the polls show they'regoing to go a certain way.
So there's not a question ofwhich way they're going to vote.
But those swing states are the ones thatare very close where they're saying,
well, we don't really know who's goingto win the swing states this year, 2024,
Arizona, 11 electoral votes, Georgia, 16,Michigan, 15, Nevada, six, North Carolina,
(15:30):
six, Pennsylvania, 19, Wisconsin, 10.
That's 93.
93 electoral votes in, in, in,I'm sorry, seven swing states.
Got it.
It can
change the election.
So, you know, it gets, thisstuff is, is really exciting.
(15:52):
You know, I listen to some peopleand they say, Well, I can't,
I can't listen to it anymore.
And
then I hear people on both sidessaying, well, if the other Canada
wins, I'm leaving the country.
I hear people on the otherside saying, okay, goodbye.
(16:14):
You've been listening to the healthy,wealthy and wise podcast, the special
brothers in law edition featuring Dr.
William T.
Chonkdorf, MD and attorney Bernie Brown,a former Los Angeles city prosecutor.
We value you as a listener and your views.
So you can connect witheither gentleman at www.
(16:34):
thwwp.
com.
That's at www.
thwwp.
com.
Click on the contact link and we'llrespond to you while you're there.
Check out the other past episodes,blogs, and books in the meantime, be
the change you want to see in the world.
(16:56):
This is the healthy.
Wealthy and Wise Podcast with Dr.
William T.
Choctaw, M.
D., J.
D.
A production of ChangemakersCommunications, LLC.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!