November 20, 2024 • 17 mins
Dive into the compelling story of Dr. Esteban Ramirez, Purdue University’s former Chief Medical Officer, and how he navigated one of the most challenging leadership roles during the COVID-19 pandemic. Learn how leadership, faith, and collaboration shaped a groundbreaking response that prioritized safety and innovation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Coming up on this
episode of the healthy,wealthy, and wise podcast.
You were actually the pornperson on COVID, weren't you?
Tell us about that.
So, uh, you know, what wasinteresting is I was doing a lot
of teaching at that time and thenCOVID hit and was, had very little
clinical, uh, time during that time.
Cause I was focusing on my teaching andI just kind of felt like, you know, I
(00:23):
felt like God was calling me that I hada special set of skills that I was not
using, um, that perhaps could be used.
this particular situation.
So
welcome to the Healthy, Wealthyand Wise podcast with Dr.
William T.
Choctaw, MD, JD.
This podcast will provide you withtools and actionable information
you can use to help live a morehealthy, wealthy and wise life.
(00:47):
It's powered by the over 50 yearsof medical experience of this Yale
University Medical School trainedsurgeon, who is also a Western
State Law School trained attorney.
With executive experience being a formerFormer Mayor of Walnut, California,
as well as the current chairman of theNonprofit Servants Arms, and as president
(01:08):
of Choctaw Medical Group Incorporated.
This is the leadership masterclassedition already in progress.
Well, listen, we thank you so muchfor being, being willing to share,
uh, some of your precious time.
We know you're a very busyperson and got a lot of stuff to
do, , uh, and, but we're absolutelydelighted to have the opportunity.
(01:31):
to have you be guests on theHealthy, Wealthy and Wise podcast.
Yes.
And this podcast is basicallybased on leadership.
And that's sort of a general term.
And we sort of puteverything in that category.
Our guest today is Dr.
Esteban Ramirez.
(01:52):
Why don't you sort of tell usa little bit about yourself?
Well, um, as you mentioned, EstebanRamirez, I grew up in California,
uh, went to undergraduate school atUniversity of California, Riverside.
That's where I received mybachelor's in psychobiology with
an emphasis in neuroscience.
Uh, then I went, I knew that I wantedto, to go to medical school at that
point and started applying all throughoutthe United States and Michigan State
(02:14):
University is where I ended up going.
Uh, was also able to completemy residency there, uh, as well.
And went on to Purdue university to getmy master's in business administration.
Um, I became sport certified in internalmedicine as well as obesity medicine.
Um, I've had a chance to work as ahospitalist, so inpatient medicine, as
(02:34):
well as outpatient internal medicine.
I've, uh, was able to help establisha preoperative clinic so that we
can improve the throughput, um, forsurgeries for our patients in the area.
I also teach over at Purdue universityand Indiana university school of
medicine as an adjunct associateprofessor of clinical medicine.
Um, also I've, uh, had the pleasure ofbeing able to serve as a chief medical
(02:59):
officer for Purdue university's,uh, protect Purdue health center.
Uh, for a couple of years.
And then, uh, currently I workas a medical director for Purdue
University's health clinics, uh,and, uh, get to see patients as well,
uh, part time while I'm doing that.
So, um, that's been good to me.
He has, let me ask you a quick question.
(03:21):
So you went to medicalschool, your physician.
Um, why in the world did youdecide to get a master's?
Ah, yes.
A lot of people ask me that.
You know, medical school is very goodat teaching you the clinical know how.
Yes.
You can diagnose very well.
You can, you know, learn how tobuild rapport with your patients.
You can learn, uh, you know, all the,the clinical and the social aspects.
(03:44):
But what's really important that Ithink, um, most medical schools don't
necessarily teach is how do you, uh,run the business of medicine as well.
So, uh, and that's the complexity.
So, uh, you know, I've always been inleadership positions throughout my, my,
you know, my medical training, as wellas when I graduated and, uh, served as
chair of my medical departments as well.
(04:05):
And what I noticed is I was lacking abasic know how of financial analysis.
And also, uh, How do I, you know, howdo I understand when the administrators
come and say, look, this is whatwe need to try to work on to try to
improve our costs or try to improveour throughput for our patients.
How do we work on that and makeit financially feasible as well?
(04:25):
And that was something thatI wasn't very familiar with.
And so I knew that in order tokind of, um, bridge that chasm,
that was, that was apparent.
Uh, I knew that, uh, uh, somethingsuch as a master's, uh, would help
me to, and especially in businessadministration or finance would be
very, very important to try to helpbridge that gap that I currently had.
Well, you're exactly, exactly right.
(04:46):
And what I've learned is that some of thathas been, if not most of it, intentional.
You know, that the people whodo run the money, they don't
want physicians involved.
They don't want clinicians at the table.
That's right.
You know, they said, no, no, no,no, leave those doctors out of this.
Let them, let them go to gomake rounds or something.
(05:06):
Um, and I think part of that is,was, is an insecurity on their part
because they're threatened by us.
but maybe rightfully so.
Um, but, but it's, it's been intentional.
It's been intentional.
And I think you've come to the conclusionthat a number of physicians have
is that you gotta know both sides.
You know, you, you can't do, you can'tprovide the quality care that you want to
(05:28):
provide without having some control overthe finances that help you to do that.
Because once you want to do something, Isaid, well, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll take
that on advisement and we'll let you know.
And then, you know, six months later,you said, well, what about so and so?
It's, oh, we're still working on that.
That's on the back burner.
(05:49):
It's like, oh, that's not good.
And the other thing is that by becoming anMBA, you learn how to speak the language.
Very, I think, very importantto speak the language.
Once you speak the language,then they can't ignore you.
They say, oh, okay, blah,blah, blah, that sort of thing.
Right.
Uh, so what, what, um.
(06:11):
What lessons have you learnedas a CMO that you didn't
know or that surprised you?
Let me put it that way.
You know, um, I, I think it wasjust really neat to kind of see
as I, I became the chief medicalofficer during the middle of COVID.
And so, you know, it was a very stressfultime for everyone, a lot of unknowns.
(06:32):
And so it was really neat to kind ofsee everyone kind of come together
for the same, similar purposeof we need to get through this.
We want to keep people safe.
Um, and.
It was neat to be able to kind ofwork with, uh, all different types of
leaders, not only researchers, hospitaladministrators, uh, public health
officials, um, and also college deansand, you know, professors to try to
(06:56):
figure out what is our approach here atPurdue university so that we can make
this successful and keep our studentsand professors as safe as possible.
So it was really neat tosee that come together.
You were actually the pointperson on COVID, weren't you?
I was, yeah.
Tell us about that.
Yeah, so, uh, you know, what wasinteresting is I was doing a lot
(07:17):
of teaching at that time, and thenCOVID hit, and was, had very little
clinical, uh, time during that time,because I was focusing on my teaching.
And I just kind of felt like, you know,I felt like God was calling me that
I had a special set of skills that Iwas not using that perhaps could be
used in this particular situation.
So, um, I knew that we had a clinic where,um, I would be able to possibly help out.
(07:41):
So I asked if they had anyopportunities there and they
immediately said, absolutely.
Um, so they.
Had me join and within a couple ofmonths, they said, Hey, by any chance,
would you be interested in, uh, withyour leadership background and, and with
everything that's kind of developing,this would be a great opportunity, uh,
to have you serve as our, our chiefmedical officer for this program.
(08:02):
Uh, and, and I was, uh, you know, Iwas happy to, to serve in that way.
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, what, what did you learn that youdidn't know when, when you did that?
You know how emotional people get under,um, Under a situation where it is, you
know, a lot of people don't know what wedidn't know at the time, what COVID would
(08:24):
look like, uh, you know, what, what, whatwe heard is there were a lot of deaths.
There was a lot of, uh, you know, folkswho were sick for a really long time.
And that ended up causing a lot of,uh, stress, which, uh, Cause a lot of
overreaction, I think, not only on,um, you know, not only the students
and professors, but mostly also from,you know, those that love them, you
(08:45):
know, so there were reactions, eventhough it seemed strict at times to do
certain things or, uh, that, that, butit was in the end, I think people came
around to understand that what we'retrying to do is try to keep people safe.
Um, and how do we allow, uh,also our, our professors and our
students and staff to be able to.
Also work because everybody needs to beable to get things done, but we need to
(09:08):
do it in as safe a manner as possible.
So it was really, um, aunique environment to work in.
Um, the other thing I had apleasure of being able to do
was work with Mitch Daniels.
I was able to, you know, he was ourpresident over at Purdue University.
Yes.
He, by far, was Uh, the best leader thatI've ever had the pleasure of working
with and having the opportunity to workwith him was, was amazing, uh, to be able
(09:32):
to see how he had a clear focus for whathe was hoping to accomplish, not only
at the university, but through somethingas difficult and really, uh, difficult
to anticipate what that would look like.
Uh, he always had a vision ofwhere he wanted this to go.
Um, so it was a real pleasure to be ableto work with him and also the leadership
team that he, he developed as well.
(09:53):
I think that's excellent.
And I think, uh, people like,uh, the university president,
how large is Purdue university?
Just so people can have an idea.
It keeps growing every year.
I think the last numbers weresomewhere close to 50, 000 now.
Yeah.
That's huge.
Yeah.
And it's, and it's growing every year.
I think we're breakingnew freshman year records.
(10:15):
Um, you know, we keep building newliving spaces for new students,
which is a good problem to have.
Yeah.
Um, but also, um, you know, and wehave some really solid programs there.
And, and I think a lot of peopleare attracted to that and also
attracted to the Midwest area.
Would you say the, the, the presidentwas sort of like a mentor to you?
(10:36):
Absolutely.
Uh, you know, it, there were, uh, Alot of folks who I think served in that
particular role, but I think a lot of ushad never played a role similar to what we
were doing just because again, here's anunexpected illness, unexpected virus, and
literally things were changing day by day.
Uh, and trying to keep up with thatwas very, very difficult, but at
(10:56):
the same time, it was again, anotheropportunity to see how we came together.
I had the pleasure of being able towork with other chief medical officers
for the local hospital systems.
So, uh, the two hospital systems herein town, we were, we had meetings
frequently and we were able to share,you know, what's going on over here
and what are you seeing over thereand what worked well, okay, great,
let's not, you know, Uh, we'll tryto redo that since we know what's
(11:18):
working well, what's not working well,and then we'd learn off that as well.
And, and so that sort of quick thinkingwas, was imperative, I think, for us to
be able to, uh, develop a program andkeep, keep adjusting and keep moving
along with those spires that we were justlearning new things about at the time.
One of the things I've learned, um,exactly what you were saying, that
(11:40):
mentorship, whether officially orunofficially is almost invaluable to your
growth and you don't plan it, you don'tchoose it necessarily, but it happens.
It happens.
And, and I going back to yourearlier point, I think that's,
that's part of God's process.
You know, since you know what, you'regoing down this road, you're going to need
some help and I'm going to put so and soand you'll meet him or her down the road.
(12:05):
And, and.
And they'll, they'll help you, youknow, with, with some of the questions
and decisions you have to make.
Uh, but I, I do believe that there,there's, there's a bigger reason
for that, a bigger role for that.
Thank you for listening to the Healthy,wealthy and Wise Podcast with Dr.
William t Choctaw, MDJD.
You can listen again to this inany of the previous episodes.
(12:25):
Leave a comment or pose questions tothe doctor by going to www.thwwp.com.
That's www.th wwp.com and you've got it.
It's also available whereveryou get your podcasts.
Be sure to follow like shit.
(12:46):
If you haven't already, then tune infor the next episode of the Healthy,
Wealthy, and Wise podcast with Dr.
William T.
Choctaw, MD, JD.
A production of ChangemakersCommunications, LLC.
Coming up on this
episode of the healthy,wealthy, and wise podcast.
You were actually the pornperson on COVID, weren't you?
Tell us about that.
So, uh, you know, what wasinteresting is I was doing a lot
of teaching at that time and thenCOVID hit and was, had very little
clinical, uh, time during that time.
Cause I was focusing on my teaching andI just kind of felt like, you know, I
(00:23):
felt like God was calling me that I hada special set of skills that I was not
using, um, that perhaps could be used.
this particular situation.
So
welcome to the Healthy, Wealthyand Wise podcast with Dr.
William T.
Choctaw, MD, JD.
This podcast will provide you withtools and actionable information
you can use to help live a morehealthy, wealthy and wise life.
(00:47):
It's powered by the over 50 yearsof medical experience of this Yale
University Medical School trainedsurgeon, who is also a Western
State Law School trained attorney.
With executive experience being a formerFormer Mayor of Walnut, California,
as well as the current chairman of theNonprofit Servants Arms, and as president
(01:08):
of Choctaw Medical Group Incorporated.
This is the leadership masterclassedition already in progress.
Well, listen, we thank you so muchfor being, being willing to share,
uh, some of your precious time.
We know you're a very busyperson and got a lot of stuff to
do, , uh, and, but we're absolutelydelighted to have the opportunity.
(01:31):
to have you be guests on theHealthy, Wealthy and Wise podcast.
Yes.
And this podcast is basicallybased on leadership.
And that's sort of a general term.
And we sort of puteverything in that category.
Our guest today is Dr.
Esteban Ramirez.
(01:52):
Why don't you sort of tell usa little bit about yourself?
Well, um, as you mentioned, EstebanRamirez, I grew up in California,
uh, went to undergraduate school atUniversity of California, Riverside.
That's where I received mybachelor's in psychobiology with
an emphasis in neuroscience.
Uh, then I went, I knew that I wantedto, to go to medical school at that
point and started applying all throughoutthe United States and Michigan State
(02:14):
University is where I ended up going.
Uh, was also able to completemy residency there, uh, as well.
And went on to Purdue university to getmy master's in business administration.
Um, I became sport certified in internalmedicine as well as obesity medicine.
Um, I've had a chance to work as ahospitalist, so inpatient medicine, as
(02:34):
well as outpatient internal medicine.
I've, uh, was able to help establisha preoperative clinic so that we
can improve the throughput, um, forsurgeries for our patients in the area.
I also teach over at Purdue universityand Indiana university school of
medicine as an adjunct associateprofessor of clinical medicine.
Um, also I've, uh, had the pleasure ofbeing able to serve as a chief medical
(02:59):
officer for Purdue university's,uh, protect Purdue health center.
Uh, for a couple of years.
And then, uh, currently I workas a medical director for Purdue
University's health clinics, uh,and, uh, get to see patients as well,
uh, part time while I'm doing that.
So, um, that's been good to me.
He has, let me ask you a quick question.
(03:21):
So you went to medicalschool, your physician.
Um, why in the world did youdecide to get a master's?
Ah, yes.
A lot of people ask me that.
You know, medical school is very goodat teaching you the clinical know how.
Yes.
You can diagnose very well.
You can, you know, learn how tobuild rapport with your patients.
You can learn, uh, you know, all the,the clinical and the social aspects.
(03:44):
But what's really important that Ithink, um, most medical schools don't
necessarily teach is how do you, uh,run the business of medicine as well.
So, uh, and that's the complexity.
So, uh, you know, I've always been inleadership positions throughout my, my,
you know, my medical training, as wellas when I graduated and, uh, served as
chair of my medical departments as well.
(04:05):
And what I noticed is I was lacking abasic know how of financial analysis.
And also, uh, How do I, you know, howdo I understand when the administrators
come and say, look, this is whatwe need to try to work on to try to
improve our costs or try to improveour throughput for our patients.
How do we work on that and makeit financially feasible as well?
(04:25):
And that was something thatI wasn't very familiar with.
And so I knew that in order tokind of, um, bridge that chasm,
that was, that was apparent.
Uh, I knew that, uh, uh, somethingsuch as a master's, uh, would help
me to, and especially in businessadministration or finance would be
very, very important to try to helpbridge that gap that I currently had.
Well, you're exactly, exactly right.
(04:46):
And what I've learned is that some of thathas been, if not most of it, intentional.
You know, that the people whodo run the money, they don't
want physicians involved.
They don't want clinicians at the table.
That's right.
You know, they said, no, no, no,no, leave those doctors out of this.
Let them, let them go to gomake rounds or something.
(05:06):
Um, and I think part of that is,was, is an insecurity on their part
because they're threatened by us.
but maybe rightfully so.
Um, but, but it's, it's been intentional.
It's been intentional.
And I think you've come to the conclusionthat a number of physicians have
is that you gotta know both sides.
You know, you, you can't do, you can'tprovide the quality care that you want to
(05:28):
provide without having some control overthe finances that help you to do that.
Because once you want to do something, Isaid, well, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll take
that on advisement and we'll let you know.
And then, you know, six months later,you said, well, what about so and so?
It's, oh, we're still working on that.
That's on the back burner.
(05:49):
It's like, oh, that's not good.
And the other thing is that by becoming anMBA, you learn how to speak the language.
Very, I think, very importantto speak the language.
Once you speak the language,then they can't ignore you.
They say, oh, okay, blah,blah, blah, that sort of thing.
Right.
Uh, so what, what, um.
(06:11):
What lessons have you learnedas a CMO that you didn't
know or that surprised you?
Let me put it that way.
You know, um, I, I think it wasjust really neat to kind of see
as I, I became the chief medicalofficer during the middle of COVID.
And so, you know, it was a very stressfultime for everyone, a lot of unknowns.
(06:32):
And so it was really neat to kind ofsee everyone kind of come together
for the same, similar purposeof we need to get through this.
We want to keep people safe.
Um, and.
It was neat to be able to kind ofwork with, uh, all different types of
leaders, not only researchers, hospitaladministrators, uh, public health
officials, um, and also college deansand, you know, professors to try to
(06:56):
figure out what is our approach here atPurdue university so that we can make
this successful and keep our studentsand professors as safe as possible.
So it was really neat tosee that come together.
You were actually the pointperson on COVID, weren't you?
I was, yeah.
Tell us about that.
Yeah, so, uh, you know, what wasinteresting is I was doing a lot
(07:17):
of teaching at that time, and thenCOVID hit, and was, had very little
clinical, uh, time during that time,because I was focusing on my teaching.
And I just kind of felt like, you know,I felt like God was calling me that
I had a special set of skills that Iwas not using that perhaps could be
used in this particular situation.
So, um, I knew that we had a clinic where,um, I would be able to possibly help out.
(07:41):
So I asked if they had anyopportunities there and they
immediately said, absolutely.
Um, so they.
Had me join and within a couple ofmonths, they said, Hey, by any chance,
would you be interested in, uh, withyour leadership background and, and with
everything that's kind of developing,this would be a great opportunity, uh,
to have you serve as our, our chiefmedical officer for this program.
(08:02):
Uh, and, and I was, uh, you know, Iwas happy to, to serve in that way.
Excellent.
Excellent.
Well, what, what did you learn that youdidn't know when, when you did that?
You know how emotional people get under,um, Under a situation where it is, you
know, a lot of people don't know what wedidn't know at the time, what COVID would
(08:24):
look like, uh, you know, what, what, whatwe heard is there were a lot of deaths.
There was a lot of, uh, you know, folkswho were sick for a really long time.
And that ended up causing a lot of,uh, stress, which, uh, Cause a lot of
overreaction, I think, not only on,um, you know, not only the students
and professors, but mostly also from,you know, those that love them, you
(08:45):
know, so there were reactions, eventhough it seemed strict at times to do
certain things or, uh, that, that, butit was in the end, I think people came
around to understand that what we'retrying to do is try to keep people safe.
Um, and how do we allow, uh,also our, our professors and our
students and staff to be able to.
Also work because everybody needs to beable to get things done, but we need to
(09:08):
do it in as safe a manner as possible.
So it was really, um, aunique environment to work in.
Um, the other thing I had apleasure of being able to do
was work with Mitch Daniels.
I was able to, you know, he was ourpresident over at Purdue University.
Yes.
He, by far, was Uh, the best leader thatI've ever had the pleasure of working
with and having the opportunity to workwith him was, was amazing, uh, to be able
(09:32):
to see how he had a clear focus for whathe was hoping to accomplish, not only
at the university, but through somethingas difficult and really, uh, difficult
to anticipate what that would look like.
Uh, he always had a vision ofwhere he wanted this to go.
Um, so it was a real pleasure to be ableto work with him and also the leadership
team that he, he developed as well.
(09:53):
I think that's excellent.
And I think, uh, people like,uh, the university president,
how large is Purdue university?
Just so people can have an idea.
It keeps growing every year.
I think the last numbers weresomewhere close to 50, 000 now.
Yeah.
That's huge.
Yeah.
And it's, and it's growing every year.
I think we're breakingnew freshman year records.
(10:15):
Um, you know, we keep building newliving spaces for new students,
which is a good problem to have.
Yeah.
Um, but also, um, you know, and wehave some really solid programs there.
And, and I think a lot of peopleare attracted to that and also
attracted to the Midwest area.
Would you say the, the, the presidentwas sort of like a mentor to you?
(10:36):
Absolutely.
Uh, you know, it, there were, uh, Alot of folks who I think served in that
particular role, but I think a lot of ushad never played a role similar to what we
were doing just because again, here's anunexpected illness, unexpected virus, and
literally things were changing day by day.
Uh, and trying to keep up with thatwas very, very difficult, but at
(10:56):
the same time, it was again, anotheropportunity to see how we came together.
I had the pleasure of being able towork with other chief medical officers
for the local hospital systems.
So, uh, the two hospital systems herein town, we were, we had meetings
frequently and we were able to share,you know, what's going on over here
and what are you seeing over thereand what worked well, okay, great,
let's not, you know, Uh, we'll tryto redo that since we know what's
(11:18):
working well, what's not working well,and then we'd learn off that as well.
And, and so that sort of quick thinkingwas, was imperative, I think, for us to
be able to, uh, develop a program andkeep, keep adjusting and keep moving
along with those spires that we were justlearning new things about at the time.
One of the things I've learned, um,exactly what you were saying, that
(11:40):
mentorship, whether officially orunofficially is almost invaluable to your
growth and you don't plan it, you don'tchoose it necessarily, but it happens.
It happens.
And, and I going back to yourearlier point, I think that's,
that's part of God's process.
You know, since you know what, you'regoing down this road, you're going to need
some help and I'm going to put so and soand you'll meet him or her down the road.
(12:05):
And, and.
And they'll, they'll help you, youknow, with, with some of the questions
and decisions you have to make.
Uh, but I, I do believe that there,there's, there's a bigger reason
for that, a bigger role for that.
Thank you for listening to the Healthy,wealthy and Wise Podcast with Dr.
William t Choctaw, MDJD.
You can listen again to this inany of the previous episodes.
(12:25):
Leave a comment or pose questions tothe doctor by going to www.thwwp.com.
That's www.th wwp.com and you've got it.
It's also available whereveryou get your podcasts.
Be sure to follow like shit.
(12:46):
If you haven't already, then tune infor the next episode of the Healthy,
Wealthy, and Wise podcast with Dr.
William T.
Choctaw, MD, JD.
A production of ChangemakersCommunications, LLC.
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