December 8, 2025 • 40 mins
Recording #2 - FS kids and University
A chat with Hannah Engel-Rebitzer, an independent Educational Consultant with Peak College Consulting, about what it is students should be looking for in university, and how parents can support this piece of the process. We talk about location, academics, social scene, as well as a little about finances. We talk about creating a balanced list and what that looks like.
To reach Hannah:
hannah@peakcollegeconsulting.com
Resources mentioned:
Tools for creating a College list and researching
- College Navigator
- College Data
- Big Future
- Atriculation agreements exist in all states. https://www.ecs.org/50-state-comparison-transfer-and-articulation/
- College Scorecard
- CampusReel
- Naviance and other college search tools https://www.lumiere-education.com/post/10-college-counseling-software-you-should-know-about
Finances
Another conversation on Kids in university: Ask LIsa Podcast https://youtu.be/dEh8JRM2ltk?si=yBhOgbrstfhOR-Sm
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
Hi friends, welcome again for another uh podcast.
My name is Susie Church Brown,and you are here listening to
another um episode of umConsiderations for Foreign
Service Kids and University.
So I'm joined again with umHannah Engel Rabitzer with um
(00:23):
Peak College Consulting.
She's an independent educationconsultant.
Hi, nice to be here again.
So last time we talked about umwhat colleges are looking for in
their applicants, so whatthey're um getting into school,
right?
So we're gonna take um kind ofanother look at that equation
(00:45):
today, and we're gonna talkabout what students should be
looking for in schools, um, andand also how parents can support
this particular adventure andnext step of uh of a high school
student's um progression througheducation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Great.
So I think the first thing waythat a parent can support
students is just being realisticabout the college landscape.
Um, it's changed so, so muchsince we applied to school.
Um first, the applicationprocess um is much more
competitive.
So, for example, I went toCornell, it had 24% acceptance
(01:25):
rate.
Now it has a between 7 and 8%acceptance rate, um, depending
on the year.
It's become much, much, muchmore competitive.
Um, that 24 acceptance rate is,you know, common now to see for
state schools applying out ofstates.
Um, and then it's also just somuch more costly.
And so the conversations, um,the price of cost, the price of
(01:48):
college has increased muchfaster than rates of inflation
and other um metrics of cost ofliving.
And so we just have to be a lotmore intentional about having
those cost conversations withour kids in a way that maybe you
didn't do with your own parentsor your own families.
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
That is money is a really big consideration,
especially considering it's notjust a one-time investment.
It is a regular for, you know,four to six years, depending on
how the bachelor's program isgonna last, but it's it's it's
an infusement of money out of itout of your pocket.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
Yeah, and we'll talk a little bit more about cost.
But um at Peak, we really focuson helping kids find schools
that are good academic, social,and financial fits.
That's kind of that is what ourthat's the core of what we do.
Um, but before we start talkingabout academic, social, and
financial, it's important totalk to your kid through kind of
the very, very basics, which islike where in the United States
(02:44):
or in Europe or in Canada do youwant to go?
Asking about location, um,asking about setting, rural,
urban, um, city contained,meaning a campus within a city,
um, kind of like uh maybe likean American university where the
campus it feels campusy versus acity not contained, like a
(03:05):
George Washington, where youcould walk or a Boston
University, you could walk pasta college, not even know that
that was a college building.
Um, talking about size, all oflike the um the basics about the
setting of the college, becausethere are four more than 4,000
colleges in the United States.
And that's a great way to startto narrow the search.
(03:25):
Um, and then and then we candive deeper into like what are
you looking for in academics andsocial life, and then what what
the family can do in terms offinancing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
So um just our thought, my thought on on
location.
This was one of the things whereum when we were looking at
universities, um, you know, ourkids weren't really necessarily
um super set on any particularschool, but they also weren't
really aware of what we weretalking about when we talked
(03:57):
about um, you know, like a anurban campus or a research
campus, or, you know, what asmaller liberal arts might look
like as compared to a largerpublic university.
Um and so when we were doing ourtours, we were very specific and
intentional in showing themthese different settings just so
(04:18):
they would have a better idea ofwhat it would sort of feel like,
although it was during COVID.
So like it wasn't actually asaccurate as it could have been.
Um, but like, for example, mykids had no idea what when I
referred to a lecture hall,yeah, what I was talking about.
And so um we um we weren'treally on a tour and we sort of
(04:41):
invited ourselves into a lecturehall to visit.
Um, but you know, it's reallyeye-opening for these kids that
have gone to these smallerinternational schools to a walk
on a college campus, but then togo into that 200-person lecture
hall and realize that oh, that'sreally big.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, I was just working with akid.
It was like dream school wasPenn State.
And I said, Well, you get youcan, you know, Penn State's open
about some of their lecturesbeing almost 400 kids.
Um, I was in 400 kid classes atCornell and she was like, but
that's the size of my highschool.
And so I think that, but then tothe touring thing, she doesn't
(05:22):
need to then go necessarily toPenn State to feel what a
400-person lecture hall.
Just go to the closest flagshipor large university and get a
feel for it.
I think is a great way we cansupport our kids to get a sense
to have fig help figure out whatthey want.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
All right, let's talk about academics.
Um, so I think the first pieceof academics is trying to figure
out is there a specific programor major that your student is um
passionate about?
Obviously, undecided is supercommon and I encouraging kids to
not rush into a program thatthey're not sure about.
But if your kids are um thinkingabout entering a specific
(06:02):
program, deciding do you want todo a direct entry program?
Meaning, are you going to applydirectly to a business school?
Are you going to apply directlyto a nursing school?
Or are you going to are you, youknow, going to apply to a
university that has a businessschool and you don't apply until
after two years and it'sselective?
Um, these are importantconversations.
And then also what pre-reccoursework is necessary.
(06:23):
So business school example, mostschools are looking for
pre-calc, right?
So making sure that these arethat um both your you've done
the pre-rec work or you'reenrolled in the pre-rec is an
important part of figuring out,like a finding a school with a
good academic fit.
And then I think the other pieceof that is just talking about
how rigorous um kids andstudents want their academic
(06:46):
experience to be.
Some schools are notoriouslyhard to get into and easy to get
out of, and then vice versa.
There's schools that are lessselective that are very, very
challenging and you work kidsvery hard.
Um just an example of like JamesMadison, um, they have a you
know a really, really strongbusiness program.
(07:07):
You're gonna take ninepre-business classes in your
first two years.
So having a conversation withyour child, is this you know
what you want your collegeexperience to look like?
Similarly with engineeringprograms, you may only have one
elective your first year atschool.
Is this the type of academicexperience you want?
Or are you interested in more ofa liberal arts education?
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Well, right.
That's that's a very heavy loadfor the first year of
university.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Not a lot of um exploration going on.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
Right.
And that's the same time where alot of kids are, especially
foreign service kids, uhfiguring out how to live on
their own, do their own laundry,um, maybe navigate uh US
transportation systems, whichthey haven't had the opportunity
to do before.
And so that's that's a lot ofconsideration for a freshman
year.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Yeah.
The next thing to think about interms of academics are kind of
the enhancements.
So, like what type of studyabroad?
Is this a school that there'slots of research opportunities
or those saved for gradstudents?
What type of internships areavailable?
Um, some schools have reallyinteresting co-op models where
you can actually get credits andget paid.
Um, at Peak, we're huge fans ofthe University of Cincinnati,
(08:15):
which has a really strong co-opmodel.
Um, what type of advising isthere?
What's the structure of thecurriculum?
Um, all of these are superimportant to outside of just
classes, but to um what what inthe realm of academics, what
other things do these schoolsoffer to enhance the kids'
experience?
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Okay.
Yeah, because it's not just allabout classes all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Yeah.
Um, another thing that I thinkcomes up a lot with Foreign
Service and um expat families isthe academic calendar.
Um, schools don't, schools runon different academic calendars,
and it does kind of haveimplications if your family is
on two or three differentcontinents.
For example, does Drexel doesn'tget out until the end of June.
WPI and Colorado College areknown for having these kind of
(09:01):
block schedules where you takeone class intensively at a time.
Um, so that's something kidsthink about.
Um, and then always communitycollege as a great option to do
um, maybe a two-year program andthen transfer in Maryland.
We have an amazing communitycollege system, and that uh you
can then transfer to one of thestate's uh schools.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
So that was actually um a point I was I was hoping we
could cover in the feedersystem.
And um and I don't think it'sactually called uh a feeder
system because that doesn't makeit sound very very um
beneficial, but this is a sortof situation where um states
(09:43):
will have a network of communityunivers uh community colleges,
usually two years, some of whichoffer um uh like on-campus
living.
So they have the same sort ofatmosphere as a a full college
or university.
And then there is like um anagreement between that community
(10:04):
college or that communitynetwork and the public
university network in thatstate.
Um I don't I I don't know ifit's different states have
different um agreements.
Some of them it's like anautomatic um transfer and
acceptance and it varies byprogram too.
So, I mean, this is a reallyinteresting opportunity for kids
(10:28):
to start the um their theirhigher education journey, but in
a slightly um less competitiveand um less expensive, less
expensive opportunities.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
On a side note, community colleges are
recruiting heavily from in theinternational um lands student
body um at a lot of the severalof like the college conferences
I've been here, although therehave been a lot of community
college reps.
And so you you would get somealso diversity, I think, at most
community colleges, bothsocioeconomic but also um from
different countries and racialand all of that, which is always
(11:03):
a plus.
Um okay, so if you're looking atacademics, you're trying to
understand a school, how can wedo this?
Obviously, like the schoolwebsite's great.
Um, College Navigator uh usesthe government data sets, and
it's it's a pretty umuser-friendly interface.
And then Big Futures is is umpretty strong site as well.
(11:23):
That's a college board websiteum where you can you know just
learn about different academicprograms, selectivity, stuff
like that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
And does that talk about like um class sizes and
that sort of thing?
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
Ooh, great question.
Where would we get class sizesfrom?
We can put it in the show notes.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
Okay, we'll we'll offer that in the show notes
because there's definitely are Imean that is I mean that's a
consideration, especially for umforeign service kids coming from
smaller um internationalschools, you know, dropping them
into a class of 400 lecturecenter or lecture room can be
(12:06):
probably a little overwhelming,or maybe that's what they're
looking for.
So that's um something to thinkabout um as you're you're having
these conversations about umwhat is a good fit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
The FIS guide to college, like the big Bible that
everybody you see reading aboutlearn about different colleges,
they they usually mention whatpercent of class sizes are 20 or
less.
So that's a good like start.
Um, but I I always like before Irefer resources, I want to make
sure it uses federally reporteddata sets.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
So we'll link uh a number of these um different
sorts of um searching tools inthe show notes so you guys can
have some more information onthis.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
All right, let's talk about social.
So a good social fit.
I think that this is the hardestto gauge, um, especially from
um, you know, the other side ofthe world.
And also because, like asparents, we have ideas about
these schools, and schoolschange, and it's hard to let go
of certain perceptions we mayhave.
I've put, for example, Rutgers,which is a selective state
(13:14):
school on college, you know,kids' college lists, and parents
are like, I just can't believeyou would put that on, right?
So it's very, very hard to gaugewhat the social climate, whereas
like academics, it's very that'svery quantitative data.
Um social is much morequalitative.
(13:35):
Um it really helps to visit acampus, it really helps to visit
campuses when kids aren't there,which is makes is very, very
hard for foreign servicefamilies to do.
Um, I think that also likeworking with an independent
education consultant, like themuch of our time is spent
visiting campuses.
Most have visited hundreds ofcampuses, and they and it is
(13:56):
they can get a vibe of thesocial scene.
Um, admissions officers can helpwith that as well.
Um, and then just trying tounderstand the values of the
university.
Um, what do they put on theirwebsite?
What clubs are the most popularhelps understand like what the
social scene looks like.
Um I would I would cautionagainst using social media to
(14:16):
get impressions of universities.
Uh social media has a value forsure, but it can be also um, it
can be detrimental to thecollege search process.
Um I think it's really importantfor kids to look up because this
is all qualitative data.
(14:38):
You can it is to get somenumbers.
So um looking at the breakdownof diversity um will give you a
good idea of what the campuslooks like.
You can look at the um percentthat receive Pell Grants.
Is there socioeconomic diversityor is this mostly wealthy kids?
Um residential options, you cansee what percent of freshmen
live on campus, what percent ofall kids live on campus.
(15:00):
That gives you a really goodsense.
Is this like are kids um livingin houses off the campus?
Is this a commuter school?
Um, give you a good sense ofthat.
And then I think the statsaround Greek life are really
important.
If there's a high percentage ofGreek life, a lot of the social
scene will be aroundfraternities and sororities.
Um, lower percentage, you know,maybe there's other thriving
(15:22):
things happening on campus.
Um, not to say that a campuswith a big Greek life, there
isn't thriving things, but itmay be more of the uh center of
the like entertainment scene.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
When we um so for the university that my both of
my boys are going to, they dohave a fairly strong Greek life
scene.
But um the other thing that wereally liked about it is that it
has a very active club sport andum other sorts of like student
engagement opportunities.
(15:55):
And that is um, I mean,important because not every kid
is going to be able to play onthe university's sports teams,
right?
But you still want them to beactive and involved.
And and so that is another thingthat we really looked for.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
All right, financial fit.
This is this is my passion.
Um so for most families, we'relooking at a six-figure
investment in universities.
And this is similar to um likebuying a home, right?
Or another, well, really, it islike buying a home, right?
Putting a down payment on ahouse.
(16:32):
Um, maybe one year is likebuying a really expensive car.
So maybe buying four expensivecars, um, just to like put in
perspective.
But unlike buying a home or evenreally buying a car, there's no
equivalent of a real estateagent.
There's no pre-approval processfor the loans.
And so there's really no likeguardrails on um paying for
college in a way that's like alittle scary.
(16:54):
And so our next episode, we'regonna talk about ways to
navigate paying for college.
But I think the number one thingsuggestion I have for parents is
um have these conversationsabout affordability and the
financing with your kids earlyin the process.
Um, the more open and honest youcan be with kids, the less
(17:15):
painful this will be.
Don't we don't want kidsapplying to schools that aren't
good financial fits for thefamily.
Um, it really pains me whenparents say, well, we'll work it
out.
Like we're gonna, we're gonnahave to figure out, you know,
we'll make this work.
Um do that making it work at thebeginning of the process.
So you're not in a positionwhere a kid is getting into a
(17:38):
school that they're very excitedabout and it's not a good
financial fit.
Um, those are much harderconversations to have.
Um yeah, these are really,really, really tough.
It's a very, very tough topic.
Um and it's because we'retalking about um our kids not
(18:03):
buying a house and what we wantfor our kids.
And so it can be painful to haveto put guardrails on them and
the college process.
Uh, but I think in the long run,it's what's it's what's best for
both kids and families.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
It's not setting your kid up for their future
life with you know, tens ofthousands or more of loans is
not a way to help them.
Especially like imagine, so ifsomeone's pursuing, for example,
a medical degree, you know,they're in school for seven to
(18:38):
ten years, depending on whatspecialty they want to go into.
It's a lot of extra money thatthen they they start their their
adult life, their career life,owing thousands and thousands of
dollars.
And that's just not that's justnot setting up anyone for
success.
Tell me about um, you're gonnaum share some resources here.
(18:59):
Yes.
But one of the um, one of thesuper interesting things I think
is the net price calculator.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the net, so any school that'staking federal loans is required
to publish a net pricecalculator.
Um, these aren't amazing.
They um you put in your yourfinances, um, and then it shoots
out basically what you're goingto be expected to pay.
And it's an estimate.
I did have a like I tell kids toscreenshot those.
(19:26):
I had a kid who won a financialaid appeal uh and is off to
college because he's it was sodifferent, his estimate versus
his actual package.
They're not bound, but bound totheir what comes out of the net
price calculator.
But I think that it is reallyimportant that you um so a
sticker price, so what a collegesays it costs, the sticker price
(19:50):
is often very, very differentthan what your family will be
paying.
It's really important thatyou're having that conversation
about the the price that is shotout in the net price calculator
rather.
Than the sticker price that'slisted online.
And it can be really shocking,right?
Like it can be shockingly lowand it can be shockingly high.
Other resources, collegescorecard is also uses federal
(20:12):
is a federal, it's a governmentwebsite.
It's really great.
It um it tells about averageindebtedness and then average
income.
So that's super helpful whenhaving these conversations
because it's not just how muchyou're going into debt, it's the
um career that your son ordaughter is going to pursue.
And does that amount of debtmake sense?
(20:32):
Um, Big J Education Consultantis they provide um a series of
worksheets, which um it gives alot, a lot of data on they've
consolidated a lot of federaldata sets.
Again, like we should be usingfederal data when looking at
this.
Um, a lot of federal data setsabout um how much merit and uh
(20:54):
other aid different collegesgive.
I cannot recommend theirworksheets enough for trying
when you for the basis of theseuh of these um conversations.
You know, if you say the averagemerit package, I'm making this
up at, you know, HannahUniversity is seven, you know,
$70,000.
But what percent of school ofkids are getting that marit age
(21:15):
package?
Oh, 3%.
Okay, so maybe the fact thatthey publish on their website
that the average aid package,merit aid is this amount, um,
isn't as powerful as a of astatistic.
And again, we will go deep intothis at our in our next podcast.
Um, the last thing that is, Ithink the first thing all
families should do is theyshould go on to um the FASFO
(21:37):
website and do the SAI estimate.
This is uh this tells you whatthe government expects you to
contribute to college each year.
Um it will be a specific numberranging from negative 1500, I
think, to a huge 99999999number.
Um it is going to be higher thanyou can pay, right?
(22:01):
There at that no one gets theirSAI and thinks, wow, that was so
low.
But the government wants um, thegovernment thinks you can, you
know, take out second mortgageon your house.
They um they expect you to havea lot of skin in the game, but
that's a good um starter of whatthat is gonna be what most uh
(22:24):
colleges expect you to becontributing to the tuition.
We're gonna go deep, deep intothis on the next podcast because
there could be many, manypodcasts about this.
unknown (22:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
And it, I mean, it's important that um all of all of
you parents take the time toreally consider what amount it
is you can you can pay.
And again, yes, we will go intofinances a lot more, but in
order to be able to help manageyour child's expectations and to
help them best create theirbalance list, which is what
(22:57):
we're talking about next, andalso, you know, where should
they be looking?
What should they be hoping for?
Where should they be submittingtheir applications and putting
their effort into these, youknow, essays, etc.?
Um if they don't actually know,if you don't actually know what
you can afford, then it's kindof a crapshoot.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
Yeah.
Let's talk about balanced lists.
So when we're creating less forour kids, or like as an IEC, we
really want to think aboutwhat's best for that kid.
And so we often think of best.
And we go and we look up, youknow, US News World Report, best
schools.
What's the top 50, right?
(23:40):
Or am I, I want my kid to go tothe best school?
And again, these are very loadedquestions because I have four
kids.
Like, I want what's best forthem, of course, right?
But we really have to think ofwhat best means for each family
and for each kid.
And it does not mean the samething for everybody.
And there are kids that bestsimply means the top 50 in US
(24:00):
News and World Report.
But stuff the we want to havethis conversation with our kids.
Like, what does best mean forus?
Are we looking for the schoolthat has the highest return on
investment?
Okay, well, let's look at thoselists.
I guarantee you, you won'trecognize a lot of schools on
those lists because the schoolswith the highest ROI have really
low tuitions and they're greatat placing kids and high-paying
(24:20):
jobs, right?
But they're not prestigious inthe way that you would think of.
Um, are we looking for best aslike we want you to go to the
most prestigious name school?
Is that what's best for ourfamily?
Um, prestige, right, isimportant.
Network is important, um, isbest for our family, like
avoiding loans at all costs.
Um, and so I think that like wewant to have this conversation
(24:44):
ahead of time of like, what doesthis, what are we actually
looking for?
What is our goal here?
Um, and then start looking forum to start constructing that um
college list.
So what do I think of when I'mum making a college list?
I'm thinking, let's find eightto 12 schools that you'd be
(25:06):
super excited to go to any ofthem.
Um, I'm not filling buckets.
I'm not thinking, okay, you havea high chance here, you have a
low chance here, that's alottery school.
No, no, no.
Let's find eight to 12 schoolsthat you would be happy to go to
any of them.
There are 4,000 plus schools inthe United States.
We have Europe, we have Canada,we have Australia.
Um, we don't, we should be ableto find eight that we are
(25:28):
excited to go.
And the best feeling in theworld is when a kid is like
finalized their college list andthey're like, Yeah, I'm excited.
I'd go be happy any of theseplaces.
Um then once you've created thatcollege list, let's make sure
it's balanced.
And this is when like an ICcomes in or another professional
who can say, Yeah, this feelslike a college list where you
know you're gonna get what youneed as a you're gonna get an
(25:49):
acceptance, you're gonna get thefinancial aid package you need
um to be successful there.
Um, but I do think I I warnparents about putting schools in
buckets using language likesafety.
Like, what if they end up attheir safety?
How do you, how does a kid feel?
Right.
Um, so that's that's my bestpractice.
(26:10):
I think eight to 12 isreasonable when there's high
financial need, um, some kidsapply to more because that just
adds like another element.
And some kids apply to you know,four or five schools.
Again, it's all about findingthat balance um rather than
trying to fill buckets of like,well, that's a safety.
So let's throw that on there.
Um so let's talk about a littlebit about selectivity and
(26:36):
rankings.
I'm jumping around here.
Um, I think that when we'remaking the college list, it can
be really hard to figure out howselective or um a school
actually is.
Um schools, just as we'reshopping around for schools,
(26:56):
schools are shopping around forstudents and we're not privy to
institutional priorities.
Um, when you think of collegeslike businesses, and they are
trying to fill different rolesin their business.
Um, and so if they're lookingfor like a French-born player
from Oklahoma, um, your kidcould be absolutely perfect, but
(27:16):
it's not gonna um necessarilylike fill the need of that
college.
Um, and then they also have tolike, they need to um, they need
enough funding to stay alive andkeep their doors open.
And so they are runningextensive predictive models,
right?
And they're like, well, if wetake this batch of kids, what is
that gonna look like forfunding?
And if we take this batch ofkids, what does that look like
(27:37):
for our funding?
And um it's just super importantthat we're when we are looking
at rankings, when we're lookingat um potentially like the
selectiveness of a college, weunderstand, and we have these
conversations with these kidsthat this is like a very nuanced
process.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Um isn't the um isn't the selectivity also like
it's not really reflective ofthere's so many different
factors that go into thatpercentage, which is just
basically, you know, a a numberthere.
But especially schools that aredeemed to be quote unquote good
(28:18):
schools, they will get moreapplications, right?
Right.
And so as they get moreapplications, automatically
their acceptance rate goes downbecause they literally can't
accept everybody.
Right.
Um, but as we're talking aboutthis, and this sort is sort of a
tangent, can we talk a littlebit about satellite university
(28:38):
campuses?
Because I think that also playsinto um the acceptance rates and
sort of the acceptance game thatuniversities play.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
Yeah.
So oftentimes you'll apply, youmay apply to Penn State main
campus and then get accepted toa satellite campus.
And then there's others like theMaryland system where you apply
directly to University ofMaryland, Baltimore County, um,
which is yeah.
So I guess um I think that likesatellite schools are a great
way to get into a state systemif you're in a state where the
(29:11):
main campus is extremelyselective, which a lot of
schools are becoming, a lot ofthe main of the like we'd say
like the flagship university inthat state.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
And there's a lot of satellite campuses that are
maybe a little more appealing toour foreign service kids because
they are in, for example, theSliniki, Greece, or Ireland, or
I mean, anywhere in the MiddleEast.
And that that acceptance isdifferent than it would be to
the main campus.
(29:42):
Um, but then most of the kids,obviously there are different
nuances and and asteris on this,but there are those kids can
typically then transfer to themain campus at some point in
their in their higher educationjourney.
And so it's not like you are uhonly allowed to attend classes
(30:03):
on that satellite campus.
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
Yeah, yep, yep, yeah.
Um, and if you end up, this isyou know, if you go to community
college and then go toUniversity of Maryland or
transfer to a main campus, whatdoes it say on your degree?
The name of the main campus.
And so that's that's animportant thing to remember.
Um yeah, I think that like backto like the selectivity and
(30:25):
rankings, um, like just examplesof like school, like so.
For example, Tennessee has gonefrom um admissions rates in the
70s, in the early 2020, 70%selectivity, and now it's like
40% um acceptance rate.
So what's changed in four years,right?
(30:45):
There's been some change inTennessee state policy.
Um, and there's also been areally winning sports team,
football team, right?
So again, having theseconversations with kids, um,
when they're making their list,like selectivity um uh doesn't
necessarily have speak to the tothe um rigor of the academics,
(31:08):
um, doesn't speak to the qualityof the kit education, um, as
well as you know rankingsadditionally, right?
Like rankings are very are donein a very, very complicated way.
And and there's um ahigh-ranking school does not not
necessarily equate with academichigh, highly rigorous
institution, nor does it equatewith potentially um the you
(31:34):
know, the best quality ofeducation.
It's really finding schools thatare good, really encouraging
your kids to like stay focusedon that idea of like a good fit.
Um, I think like another exampleis like at Peak, we really love
the University of Pittsburgh,all been super impressed with
the people we've met there andthe campus.
Um, but you know, itsselectivity is like 50%, doesn't
(31:56):
quite have the same prestige aslike a UNC or a UVA.
Um, but then it just got namedby Forbes, you know, to be one
of the top 10 public IVs, right?
And so all of this stuff is veryuh it's easy, like it's just
complicated and really, reallyjust, you know, uh you and your
kid are looking for goodacademic, social, and financial
(32:17):
fits.
Let's try to keep the buzz ofprestige and uh well, unless
you've decided with your kid,prestige is the number one
important thing for you, but forthe most part, um there's a lot
of confounding factors um inrankings and in selectivity
(32:37):
numbers and all of that.
And so it's tough.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
So we were just having um a conversation um with
uh the high school counselorsfor the the school that we're um
that my kids go to here, and itwas an interesting um
conversation that the counselorswere offering with the parents,
saying um, I mean, there's alimit to the number of
(33:03):
applications that they willendorse, which is totally fair
because you know, you have theum you have all of the letters
of recommendations, et cetera,that are are still required.
And it's it's a lot of work,especially trying to help all of
these um uh juniors and seniorsnavigate this route
successfully.
And it was interesting becausesome of the parents were just
(33:25):
like, well, but how do I gainthe system?
Like, how do I get moreapplications out of you than
just this 10?
And um so there are some statesystems where you uh you can
apply to multiple universitieswith one application process.
And it's basically, so I know ofa couple, but let's let's use
(33:45):
California as the example here.
And so this mom was like, Well,so if we apply to California,
then that for you counts as one,saying to the counselor, but
then we can apply to all ofthis, all of the universities in
the in the California system.
And it was an interesting, um,awkward pause after she said
this.
And the counselor was like,Yeah, but should you?
(34:08):
Like, are are all of the schoolsa good fit for your kid?
Yeah.
And um, she clearly hadn'tthought about that, nor I think
will she after thatconversation.
But it was just like, it's not,well, it's not about you,
parent, mom, dad.
Um, it's about what does yourkid need?
And what where will your kidreally succeed?
(34:32):
And um maybe that's not one ofthe University of California
schools.
Maybe that is, you know, somemaybe it's the one in Cincinnati
or something like it's it'sreally important to be open to
all of these otheropportunities.
SPEAKER_01 (34:46):
I get that a lot where parents say, like, you
know, they meet me for the firsttime, they're like, Well, we're
gonna apply to all the Ivys.
And I'm like, you know, you justthink like Columbia, you're in
you're in a Cantaine campus inNew York City, Cornell, you're
like freezing cold winters inIthaca.
These are radically differentschools.
Let's like, let's talk a littlebit about what you're looking
(35:06):
for in your academic experience.
And maybe we do apply to acouple IVs.
I'm not anti-Ivy, but let'slet's really talk about what
your kid needs.
SPEAKER_00 (35:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Um, I think this also brings me to another
conversation I think you need tohave with your kid.
The workload for applying tocollege is is substantial.
And if you particularly if youhave a kid who like is wants to
apply to elite um universities,and I just think having that
conversation with your son ordaughter, is this worth it?
Like, is this what we want to bedoing?
(35:36):
Are we gonna go down this pathof 20 to 30 essays?
Are we gonna go down the path ofmultiple rounds of taking the
SATs and tutoring and makingsure your summer is spent at an
institution that aligns withyour, you know, the program of
study?
Um and just having no judgment,right?
If that's where we're going,let's go there.
But have that conversationbefore you start it because I do
(35:57):
think it can be shocking to kidscome August when you're like,
all right, you've done yourpersonal narrative.
Now let's do 20 supplementals,right?
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Never mind the school load of junior year,
senior, senior year.
SPEAKER_01 (36:08):
I'm talking about senior year, yeah.
Junior and senior year, yeah,yeah, junior and senior year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
It is substantial.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (36:13):
You're looking at a high achieving kid who's taking
many, many rigorous classes.
So that's another like bestpractice for uh the adults in a
kid's life.
Um, this is also this is kind oflike a side note, but oftentimes
I have kids saying things like,Oh, I just want to look at
schools that are test optionalbecause I'm not like, you know,
I don't really want to study forthe SATs.
(36:34):
And I think that that's a wayparents can really help guide
kids.
I think we should all be lookingat standardized tests as like,
you know what, let's try ourbest.
Let's not close doors our junioryear, um, and see what happens
when we get those scores.
I think also so many schools aretest optional right now, um,
which is different than testblind, meaning they're not going
(36:55):
to look at your scores.
So, like some stats like uhPrinceton, 60% of applicants
submit their SATs, 25% submittheir ACTs.
So yeah, they're test optional,but kids are submitting.
Um, Duke said that 75% of thestudents that they admitted took
their SATs.
Again, test optional, but is itreally test optional, right?
(37:17):
Like you you start.
So I think like we can, that'sanother way parents can really
support kids.
It's like, let's take these SATsseriously and let's see how you
do.
And maybe they will open doors.
And they oftentimes, even if itdoesn't, if it's not, if it's
test optional in terms ofacceptance at the university,
kid parent uh schools are usingmerit aid to attract kids that
they want.
And so a huge way, a huge waythey do it, and this is the
(37:40):
nitty-gritty of it, but likekids with high SAT scores help
their stats, move them up theirrankings, and there's that's
where you're gonna see somereally huge merit packages.
Um yeah, I think my last thingis just it's really important to
remind students there are manypathways to the same
destination.
And um we're here to supportthem in all those different
(38:04):
pathways and also to keep asmany as we can open.
Um, and the best way to do thatis through honest conversations
early in the process.
SPEAKER_00 (38:12):
And hopefully not the first conversation happening
um their December or November oftheir junior year.
You've had these conversationsongoing because university is
it's a big step, it's a bigdecision.
Um, and if it's just thedecisions already made, this
child is going to university.
What does that look like?
(38:32):
Let's let's really like peelthat onion and make sure that we
we find the best fit for thiskid.
Um, so today we've talked aboutum what it is that um students
um should be looking for inschools and how parents can
support their student in thisprocess.
We've talked about setting andacademics and social life, all
(38:54):
of which you know really playinto that, what that feels like
once they're there.
We've talked about thatfinancial piece, which is
obviously um a very importantpiece.
Um and um we'll um dig much moreinto finances of university um
in our next podcast.
(39:15):
And then we talked aboutcreating a balance list and what
that really looks like.
Um definitely uh hopefully yourschool has a um a designated
college um counselor.
Um if there's not a specificcollege counselor, there will be
a counselor that isknowledgeable about the process.
And there are, of course, umeducational consultants that can
(39:37):
help through this process aswell.
Um, we'll list a few of theresources that um that Hannah
relies on and knows of in theshow notes that so you can um
really find the best fit for umyour kid and your family and
your finances.
(39:58):
And um hopefully.
This will listening to this hashelped you maybe, maybe not
necessarily answer all of yourquestions, but help you think of
different um questions that youand and give you resources where
you can get the best informationfor um finding a good fit.
SPEAKER_01 (40:18):
And any last thoughts?
No, thank you for your time.
Um feel free to reach out withany questions.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
We love questions, so please do uh please do send
them our way.
So thanks very much for joining,and we'll have um number three
shared soon enough.
Thank you very much.
Bye.
Hi friends, welcome again for another uh podcast.
My name is Susie Church Brown,and you are here listening to
another um episode of umConsiderations for Foreign
Service Kids and University.
So I'm joined again with umHannah Engel Rabitzer with um
(00:23):
Peak College Consulting.
She's an independent educationconsultant.
Hi, nice to be here again.
So last time we talked about umwhat colleges are looking for in
their applicants, so whatthey're um getting into school,
right?
So we're gonna take um kind ofanother look at that equation
(00:45):
today, and we're gonna talkabout what students should be
looking for in schools, um, andand also how parents can support
this particular adventure andnext step of uh of a high school
student's um progression througheducation.
SPEAKER_01 (01:04):
Great.
So I think the first thing waythat a parent can support
students is just being realisticabout the college landscape.
Um, it's changed so, so muchsince we applied to school.
Um first, the applicationprocess um is much more
competitive.
So, for example, I went toCornell, it had 24% acceptance
(01:25):
rate.
Now it has a between 7 and 8%acceptance rate, um, depending
on the year.
It's become much, much, muchmore competitive.
Um, that 24 acceptance rate is,you know, common now to see for
state schools applying out ofstates.
Um, and then it's also just somuch more costly.
And so the conversations, um,the price of cost, the price of
(01:48):
college has increased muchfaster than rates of inflation
and other um metrics of cost ofliving.
And so we just have to be a lotmore intentional about having
those cost conversations withour kids in a way that maybe you
didn't do with your own parentsor your own families.
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
That is money is a really big consideration,
especially considering it's notjust a one-time investment.
It is a regular for, you know,four to six years, depending on
how the bachelor's program isgonna last, but it's it's it's
an infusement of money out of itout of your pocket.
SPEAKER_01 (02:21):
Yeah, and we'll talk a little bit more about cost.
But um at Peak, we really focuson helping kids find schools
that are good academic, social,and financial fits.
That's kind of that is what ourthat's the core of what we do.
Um, but before we start talkingabout academic, social, and
financial, it's important totalk to your kid through kind of
the very, very basics, which islike where in the United States
(02:44):
or in Europe or in Canada do youwant to go?
Asking about location, um,asking about setting, rural,
urban, um, city contained,meaning a campus within a city,
um, kind of like uh maybe likean American university where the
campus it feels campusy versus acity not contained, like a
(03:05):
George Washington, where youcould walk or a Boston
University, you could walk pasta college, not even know that
that was a college building.
Um, talking about size, all oflike the um the basics about the
setting of the college, becausethere are four more than 4,000
colleges in the United States.
And that's a great way to startto narrow the search.
(03:25):
Um, and then and then we candive deeper into like what are
you looking for in academics andsocial life, and then what what
the family can do in terms offinancing.
SPEAKER_00 (03:36):
So um just our thought, my thought on on
location.
This was one of the things whereum when we were looking at
universities, um, you know, ourkids weren't really necessarily
um super set on any particularschool, but they also weren't
really aware of what we weretalking about when we talked
(03:57):
about um, you know, like a anurban campus or a research
campus, or, you know, what asmaller liberal arts might look
like as compared to a largerpublic university.
Um and so when we were doing ourtours, we were very specific and
intentional in showing themthese different settings just so
(04:18):
they would have a better idea ofwhat it would sort of feel like,
although it was during COVID.
So like it wasn't actually asaccurate as it could have been.
Um, but like, for example, mykids had no idea what when I
referred to a lecture hall,yeah, what I was talking about.
And so um we um we weren'treally on a tour and we sort of
(04:41):
invited ourselves into a lecturehall to visit.
Um, but you know, it's reallyeye-opening for these kids that
have gone to these smallerinternational schools to a walk
on a college campus, but then togo into that 200-person lecture
hall and realize that oh, that'sreally big.
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, I was just working with akid.
It was like dream school wasPenn State.
And I said, Well, you get youcan, you know, Penn State's open
about some of their lecturesbeing almost 400 kids.
Um, I was in 400 kid classes atCornell and she was like, but
that's the size of my highschool.
And so I think that, but then tothe touring thing, she doesn't
(05:22):
need to then go necessarily toPenn State to feel what a
400-person lecture hall.
Just go to the closest flagshipor large university and get a
feel for it.
I think is a great way we cansupport our kids to get a sense
to have fig help figure out whatthey want.
SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:38):
All right, let's talk about academics.
Um, so I think the first pieceof academics is trying to figure
out is there a specific programor major that your student is um
passionate about?
Obviously, undecided is supercommon and I encouraging kids to
not rush into a program thatthey're not sure about.
But if your kids are um thinkingabout entering a specific
(06:02):
program, deciding do you want todo a direct entry program?
Meaning, are you going to applydirectly to a business school?
Are you going to apply directlyto a nursing school?
Or are you going to are you, youknow, going to apply to a
university that has a businessschool and you don't apply until
after two years and it'sselective?
Um, these are importantconversations.
And then also what pre-reccoursework is necessary.
(06:23):
So business school example, mostschools are looking for
pre-calc, right?
So making sure that these arethat um both your you've done
the pre-rec work or you'reenrolled in the pre-rec is an
important part of figuring out,like a finding a school with a
good academic fit.
And then I think the other pieceof that is just talking about
how rigorous um kids andstudents want their academic
(06:46):
experience to be.
Some schools are notoriouslyhard to get into and easy to get
out of, and then vice versa.
There's schools that are lessselective that are very, very
challenging and you work kidsvery hard.
Um just an example of like JamesMadison, um, they have a you
know a really, really strongbusiness program.
(07:07):
You're gonna take ninepre-business classes in your
first two years.
So having a conversation withyour child, is this you know
what you want your collegeexperience to look like?
Similarly with engineeringprograms, you may only have one
elective your first year atschool.
Is this the type of academicexperience you want?
Or are you interested in more ofa liberal arts education?
SPEAKER_00 (07:26):
Well, right.
That's that's a very heavy loadfor the first year of
university.
SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Not a lot of um exploration going on.
SPEAKER_00 (07:33):
Right.
And that's the same time where alot of kids are, especially
foreign service kids, uhfiguring out how to live on
their own, do their own laundry,um, maybe navigate uh US
transportation systems, whichthey haven't had the opportunity
to do before.
And so that's that's a lot ofconsideration for a freshman
year.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
Yeah.
The next thing to think about interms of academics are kind of
the enhancements.
So, like what type of studyabroad?
Is this a school that there'slots of research opportunities
or those saved for gradstudents?
What type of internships areavailable?
Um, some schools have reallyinteresting co-op models where
you can actually get credits andget paid.
Um, at Peak, we're huge fans ofthe University of Cincinnati,
(08:15):
which has a really strong co-opmodel.
Um, what type of advising isthere?
What's the structure of thecurriculum?
Um, all of these are superimportant to outside of just
classes, but to um what what inthe realm of academics, what
other things do these schoolsoffer to enhance the kids'
experience?
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
Okay.
Yeah, because it's not just allabout classes all the time.
SPEAKER_01 (08:40):
Yeah.
Um, another thing that I thinkcomes up a lot with Foreign
Service and um expat families isthe academic calendar.
Um, schools don't, schools runon different academic calendars,
and it does kind of haveimplications if your family is
on two or three differentcontinents.
For example, does Drexel doesn'tget out until the end of June.
WPI and Colorado College areknown for having these kind of
(09:01):
block schedules where you takeone class intensively at a time.
Um, so that's something kidsthink about.
Um, and then always communitycollege as a great option to do
um, maybe a two-year program andthen transfer in Maryland.
We have an amazing communitycollege system, and that uh you
can then transfer to one of thestate's uh schools.
SPEAKER_00 (09:22):
So that was actually um a point I was I was hoping we
could cover in the feedersystem.
And um and I don't think it'sactually called uh a feeder
system because that doesn't makeit sound very very um
beneficial, but this is a sortof situation where um states
(09:43):
will have a network of communityunivers uh community colleges,
usually two years, some of whichoffer um uh like on-campus
living.
So they have the same sort ofatmosphere as a a full college
or university.
And then there is like um anagreement between that community
(10:04):
college or that communitynetwork and the public
university network in thatstate.
Um I don't I I don't know ifit's different states have
different um agreements.
Some of them it's like anautomatic um transfer and
acceptance and it varies byprogram too.
So, I mean, this is a reallyinteresting opportunity for kids
(10:28):
to start the um their theirhigher education journey, but in
a slightly um less competitiveand um less expensive, less
expensive opportunities.
SPEAKER_01 (10:41):
On a side note, community colleges are
recruiting heavily from in theinternational um lands student
body um at a lot of the severalof like the college conferences
I've been here, although therehave been a lot of community
college reps.
And so you you would get somealso diversity, I think, at most
community colleges, bothsocioeconomic but also um from
different countries and racialand all of that, which is always
(11:03):
a plus.
Um okay, so if you're looking atacademics, you're trying to
understand a school, how can wedo this?
Obviously, like the schoolwebsite's great.
Um, College Navigator uh usesthe government data sets, and
it's it's a pretty umuser-friendly interface.
And then Big Futures is is umpretty strong site as well.
(11:23):
That's a college board websiteum where you can you know just
learn about different academicprograms, selectivity, stuff
like that.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
And does that talk about like um class sizes and
that sort of thing?
SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
Ooh, great question.
Where would we get class sizesfrom?
We can put it in the show notes.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
Okay, we'll we'll offer that in the show notes
because there's definitely are Imean that is I mean that's a
consideration, especially for umforeign service kids coming from
smaller um internationalschools, you know, dropping them
into a class of 400 lecturecenter or lecture room can be
(12:06):
probably a little overwhelming,or maybe that's what they're
looking for.
So that's um something to thinkabout um as you're you're having
these conversations about umwhat is a good fit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
The FIS guide to college, like the big Bible that
everybody you see reading aboutlearn about different colleges,
they they usually mention whatpercent of class sizes are 20 or
less.
So that's a good like start.
Um, but I I always like before Irefer resources, I want to make
sure it uses federally reporteddata sets.
SPEAKER_00 (12:40):
So we'll link uh a number of these um different
sorts of um searching tools inthe show notes so you guys can
have some more information onthis.
SPEAKER_01 (12:51):
All right, let's talk about social.
So a good social fit.
I think that this is the hardestto gauge, um, especially from
um, you know, the other side ofthe world.
And also because, like asparents, we have ideas about
these schools, and schoolschange, and it's hard to let go
of certain perceptions we mayhave.
I've put, for example, Rutgers,which is a selective state
(13:14):
school on college, you know,kids' college lists, and parents
are like, I just can't believeyou would put that on, right?
So it's very, very hard to gaugewhat the social climate, whereas
like academics, it's very that'svery quantitative data.
Um social is much morequalitative.
(13:35):
Um it really helps to visit acampus, it really helps to visit
campuses when kids aren't there,which is makes is very, very
hard for foreign servicefamilies to do.
Um, I think that also likeworking with an independent
education consultant, like themuch of our time is spent
visiting campuses.
Most have visited hundreds ofcampuses, and they and it is
(13:56):
they can get a vibe of thesocial scene.
Um, admissions officers can helpwith that as well.
Um, and then just trying tounderstand the values of the
university.
Um, what do they put on theirwebsite?
What clubs are the most popularhelps understand like what the
social scene looks like.
Um I would I would cautionagainst using social media to
(14:16):
get impressions of universities.
Uh social media has a value forsure, but it can be also um, it
can be detrimental to thecollege search process.
Um I think it's really importantfor kids to look up because this
is all qualitative data.
(14:38):
You can it is to get somenumbers.
So um looking at the breakdownof diversity um will give you a
good idea of what the campuslooks like.
You can look at the um percentthat receive Pell Grants.
Is there socioeconomic diversityor is this mostly wealthy kids?
Um residential options, you cansee what percent of freshmen
live on campus, what percent ofall kids live on campus.
(15:00):
That gives you a really goodsense.
Is this like are kids um livingin houses off the campus?
Is this a commuter school?
Um, give you a good sense ofthat.
And then I think the statsaround Greek life are really
important.
If there's a high percentage ofGreek life, a lot of the social
scene will be aroundfraternities and sororities.
Um, lower percentage, you know,maybe there's other thriving
(15:22):
things happening on campus.
Um, not to say that a campuswith a big Greek life, there
isn't thriving things, but itmay be more of the uh center of
the like entertainment scene.
SPEAKER_00 (15:34):
When we um so for the university that my both of
my boys are going to, they dohave a fairly strong Greek life
scene.
But um the other thing that wereally liked about it is that it
has a very active club sport andum other sorts of like student
engagement opportunities.
(15:55):
And that is um, I mean,important because not every kid
is going to be able to play onthe university's sports teams,
right?
But you still want them to beactive and involved.
And and so that is another thingthat we really looked for.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
All right, financial fit.
This is this is my passion.
Um so for most families, we'relooking at a six-figure
investment in universities.
And this is similar to um likebuying a home, right?
Or another, well, really, it islike buying a home, right?
Putting a down payment on ahouse.
(16:32):
Um, maybe one year is likebuying a really expensive car.
So maybe buying four expensivecars, um, just to like put in
perspective.
But unlike buying a home or evenreally buying a car, there's no
equivalent of a real estateagent.
There's no pre-approval processfor the loans.
And so there's really no likeguardrails on um paying for
college in a way that's like alittle scary.
(16:54):
And so our next episode, we'regonna talk about ways to
navigate paying for college.
But I think the number one thingsuggestion I have for parents is
um have these conversationsabout affordability and the
financing with your kids earlyin the process.
Um, the more open and honest youcan be with kids, the less
(17:15):
painful this will be.
Don't we don't want kidsapplying to schools that aren't
good financial fits for thefamily.
Um, it really pains me whenparents say, well, we'll work it
out.
Like we're gonna, we're gonnahave to figure out, you know,
we'll make this work.
Um do that making it work at thebeginning of the process.
So you're not in a positionwhere a kid is getting into a
(17:38):
school that they're very excitedabout and it's not a good
financial fit.
Um, those are much harderconversations to have.
Um yeah, these are really,really, really tough.
It's a very, very tough topic.
Um and it's because we'retalking about um our kids not
(18:03):
buying a house and what we wantfor our kids.
And so it can be painful to haveto put guardrails on them and
the college process.
Uh, but I think in the long run,it's what's it's what's best for
both kids and families.
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
It's not setting your kid up for their future
life with you know, tens ofthousands or more of loans is
not a way to help them.
Especially like imagine, so ifsomeone's pursuing, for example,
a medical degree, you know,they're in school for seven to
(18:38):
ten years, depending on whatspecialty they want to go into.
It's a lot of extra money thatthen they they start their their
adult life, their career life,owing thousands and thousands of
dollars.
And that's just not that's justnot setting up anyone for
success.
Tell me about um, you're gonnaum share some resources here.
(18:59):
Yes.
But one of the um, one of thesuper interesting things I think
is the net price calculator.
SPEAKER_01 (19:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the net, so any school that'staking federal loans is required
to publish a net pricecalculator.
Um, these aren't amazing.
They um you put in your yourfinances, um, and then it shoots
out basically what you're goingto be expected to pay.
And it's an estimate.
I did have a like I tell kids toscreenshot those.
(19:26):
I had a kid who won a financialaid appeal uh and is off to
college because he's it was sodifferent, his estimate versus
his actual package.
They're not bound, but bound totheir what comes out of the net
price calculator.
But I think that it is reallyimportant that you um so a
sticker price, so what a collegesays it costs, the sticker price
(19:50):
is often very, very differentthan what your family will be
paying.
It's really important thatyou're having that conversation
about the the price that is shotout in the net price calculator
rather.
Than the sticker price that'slisted online.
And it can be really shocking,right?
Like it can be shockingly lowand it can be shockingly high.
Other resources, collegescorecard is also uses federal
(20:12):
is a federal, it's a governmentwebsite.
It's really great.
It um it tells about averageindebtedness and then average
income.
So that's super helpful whenhaving these conversations
because it's not just how muchyou're going into debt, it's the
um career that your son ordaughter is going to pursue.
And does that amount of debtmake sense?
(20:32):
Um, Big J Education Consultantis they provide um a series of
worksheets, which um it gives alot, a lot of data on they've
consolidated a lot of federaldata sets.
Again, like we should be usingfederal data when looking at
this.
Um, a lot of federal data setsabout um how much merit and uh
(20:54):
other aid different collegesgive.
I cannot recommend theirworksheets enough for trying
when you for the basis of theseuh of these um conversations.
You know, if you say the averagemerit package, I'm making this
up at, you know, HannahUniversity is seven, you know,
$70,000.
But what percent of school ofkids are getting that marit age
(21:15):
package?
Oh, 3%.
Okay, so maybe the fact thatthey publish on their website
that the average aid package,merit aid is this amount, um,
isn't as powerful as a of astatistic.
And again, we will go deep intothis at our in our next podcast.
Um, the last thing that is, Ithink the first thing all
families should do is theyshould go on to um the FASFO
(21:37):
website and do the SAI estimate.
This is uh this tells you whatthe government expects you to
contribute to college each year.
Um it will be a specific numberranging from negative 1500, I
think, to a huge 99999999number.
Um it is going to be higher thanyou can pay, right?
(22:01):
There at that no one gets theirSAI and thinks, wow, that was so
low.
But the government wants um, thegovernment thinks you can, you
know, take out second mortgageon your house.
They um they expect you to havea lot of skin in the game, but
that's a good um starter of whatthat is gonna be what most uh
(22:24):
colleges expect you to becontributing to the tuition.
We're gonna go deep, deep intothis on the next podcast because
there could be many, manypodcasts about this.
unknown (22:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
And it, I mean, it's important that um all of all of
you parents take the time toreally consider what amount it
is you can you can pay.
And again, yes, we will go intofinances a lot more, but in
order to be able to help manageyour child's expectations and to
help them best create theirbalance list, which is what
(22:57):
we're talking about next, andalso, you know, where should
they be looking?
What should they be hoping for?
Where should they be submittingtheir applications and putting
their effort into these, youknow, essays, etc.?
Um if they don't actually know,if you don't actually know what
you can afford, then it's kindof a crapshoot.
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
Yeah.
Let's talk about balanced lists.
So when we're creating less forour kids, or like as an IEC, we
really want to think aboutwhat's best for that kid.
And so we often think of best.
And we go and we look up, youknow, US News World Report, best
schools.
What's the top 50, right?
(23:40):
Or am I, I want my kid to go tothe best school?
And again, these are very loadedquestions because I have four
kids.
Like, I want what's best forthem, of course, right?
But we really have to think ofwhat best means for each family
and for each kid.
And it does not mean the samething for everybody.
And there are kids that bestsimply means the top 50 in US
(24:00):
News and World Report.
But stuff the we want to havethis conversation with our kids.
Like, what does best mean forus?
Are we looking for the schoolthat has the highest return on
investment?
Okay, well, let's look at thoselists.
I guarantee you, you won'trecognize a lot of schools on
those lists because the schoolswith the highest ROI have really
low tuitions and they're greatat placing kids and high-paying
(24:20):
jobs, right?
But they're not prestigious inthe way that you would think of.
Um, are we looking for best aslike we want you to go to the
most prestigious name school?
Is that what's best for ourfamily?
Um, prestige, right, isimportant.
Network is important, um, isbest for our family, like
avoiding loans at all costs.
Um, and so I think that like wewant to have this conversation
(24:44):
ahead of time of like, what doesthis, what are we actually
looking for?
What is our goal here?
Um, and then start looking forum to start constructing that um
college list.
So what do I think of when I'mum making a college list?
I'm thinking, let's find eightto 12 schools that you'd be
(25:06):
super excited to go to any ofthem.
Um, I'm not filling buckets.
I'm not thinking, okay, you havea high chance here, you have a
low chance here, that's alottery school.
No, no, no.
Let's find eight to 12 schoolsthat you would be happy to go to
any of them.
There are 4,000 plus schools inthe United States.
We have Europe, we have Canada,we have Australia.
Um, we don't, we should be ableto find eight that we are
(25:28):
excited to go.
And the best feeling in theworld is when a kid is like
finalized their college list andthey're like, Yeah, I'm excited.
I'd go be happy any of theseplaces.
Um then once you've created thatcollege list, let's make sure
it's balanced.
And this is when like an ICcomes in or another professional
who can say, Yeah, this feelslike a college list where you
know you're gonna get what youneed as a you're gonna get an
(25:49):
acceptance, you're gonna get thefinancial aid package you need
um to be successful there.
Um, but I do think I I warnparents about putting schools in
buckets using language likesafety.
Like, what if they end up attheir safety?
How do you, how does a kid feel?
Right.
Um, so that's that's my bestpractice.
(26:10):
I think eight to 12 isreasonable when there's high
financial need, um, some kidsapply to more because that just
adds like another element.
And some kids apply to you know,four or five schools.
Again, it's all about findingthat balance um rather than
trying to fill buckets of like,well, that's a safety.
So let's throw that on there.
Um so let's talk about a littlebit about selectivity and
(26:36):
rankings.
I'm jumping around here.
Um, I think that when we'remaking the college list, it can
be really hard to figure out howselective or um a school
actually is.
Um schools, just as we'reshopping around for schools,
(26:56):
schools are shopping around forstudents and we're not privy to
institutional priorities.
Um, when you think of collegeslike businesses, and they are
trying to fill different rolesin their business.
Um, and so if they're lookingfor like a French-born player
from Oklahoma, um, your kidcould be absolutely perfect, but
(27:16):
it's not gonna um necessarilylike fill the need of that
college.
Um, and then they also have tolike, they need to um, they need
enough funding to stay alive andkeep their doors open.
And so they are runningextensive predictive models,
right?
And they're like, well, if wetake this batch of kids, what is
that gonna look like forfunding?
And if we take this batch ofkids, what does that look like
(27:37):
for our funding?
And um it's just super importantthat we're when we are looking
at rankings, when we're lookingat um potentially like the
selectiveness of a college, weunderstand, and we have these
conversations with these kidsthat this is like a very nuanced
process.
SPEAKER_00 (27:56):
Um isn't the um isn't the selectivity also like
it's not really reflective ofthere's so many different
factors that go into thatpercentage, which is just
basically, you know, a a numberthere.
But especially schools that aredeemed to be quote unquote good
(28:18):
schools, they will get moreapplications, right?
Right.
And so as they get moreapplications, automatically
their acceptance rate goes downbecause they literally can't
accept everybody.
Right.
Um, but as we're talking aboutthis, and this sort is sort of a
tangent, can we talk a littlebit about satellite university
(28:38):
campuses?
Because I think that also playsinto um the acceptance rates and
sort of the acceptance game thatuniversities play.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
Yeah.
So oftentimes you'll apply, youmay apply to Penn State main
campus and then get accepted toa satellite campus.
And then there's others like theMaryland system where you apply
directly to University ofMaryland, Baltimore County, um,
which is yeah.
So I guess um I think that likesatellite schools are a great
way to get into a state systemif you're in a state where the
(29:11):
main campus is extremelyselective, which a lot of
schools are becoming, a lot ofthe main of the like we'd say
like the flagship university inthat state.
SPEAKER_00 (29:21):
And there's a lot of satellite campuses that are
maybe a little more appealing toour foreign service kids because
they are in, for example, theSliniki, Greece, or Ireland, or
I mean, anywhere in the MiddleEast.
And that that acceptance isdifferent than it would be to
the main campus.
(29:42):
Um, but then most of the kids,obviously there are different
nuances and and asteris on this,but there are those kids can
typically then transfer to themain campus at some point in
their in their higher educationjourney.
And so it's not like you are uhonly allowed to attend classes
(30:03):
on that satellite campus.
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
Yeah, yep, yep, yeah.
Um, and if you end up, this isyou know, if you go to community
college and then go toUniversity of Maryland or
transfer to a main campus, whatdoes it say on your degree?
The name of the main campus.
And so that's that's animportant thing to remember.
Um yeah, I think that like backto like the selectivity and
(30:25):
rankings, um, like just examplesof like school, like so.
For example, Tennessee has gonefrom um admissions rates in the
70s, in the early 2020, 70%selectivity, and now it's like
40% um acceptance rate.
So what's changed in four years,right?
(30:45):
There's been some change inTennessee state policy.
Um, and there's also been areally winning sports team,
football team, right?
So again, having theseconversations with kids, um,
when they're making their list,like selectivity um uh doesn't
necessarily have speak to the tothe um rigor of the academics,
(31:08):
um, doesn't speak to the qualityof the kit education, um, as
well as you know rankingsadditionally, right?
Like rankings are very are donein a very, very complicated way.
And and there's um ahigh-ranking school does not not
necessarily equate with academichigh, highly rigorous
institution, nor does it equatewith potentially um the you
(31:34):
know, the best quality ofeducation.
It's really finding schools thatare good, really encouraging
your kids to like stay focusedon that idea of like a good fit.
Um, I think like another exampleis like at Peak, we really love
the University of Pittsburgh,all been super impressed with
the people we've met there andthe campus.
Um, but you know, itsselectivity is like 50%, doesn't
(31:56):
quite have the same prestige aslike a UNC or a UVA.
Um, but then it just got namedby Forbes, you know, to be one
of the top 10 public IVs, right?
And so all of this stuff is veryuh it's easy, like it's just
complicated and really, reallyjust, you know, uh you and your
kid are looking for goodacademic, social, and financial
(32:17):
fits.
Let's try to keep the buzz ofprestige and uh well, unless
you've decided with your kid,prestige is the number one
important thing for you, but forthe most part, um there's a lot
of confounding factors um inrankings and in selectivity
(32:37):
numbers and all of that.
And so it's tough.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
So we were just having um a conversation um with
uh the high school counselorsfor the the school that we're um
that my kids go to here, and itwas an interesting um
conversation that the counselorswere offering with the parents,
saying um, I mean, there's alimit to the number of
(33:03):
applications that they willendorse, which is totally fair
because you know, you have theum you have all of the letters
of recommendations, et cetera,that are are still required.
And it's it's a lot of work,especially trying to help all of
these um uh juniors and seniorsnavigate this route
successfully.
And it was interesting becausesome of the parents were just
(33:25):
like, well, but how do I gainthe system?
Like, how do I get moreapplications out of you than
just this 10?
And um so there are some statesystems where you uh you can
apply to multiple universitieswith one application process.
And it's basically, so I know ofa couple, but let's let's use
(33:45):
California as the example here.
And so this mom was like, Well,so if we apply to California,
then that for you counts as one,saying to the counselor, but
then we can apply to all ofthis, all of the universities in
the in the California system.
And it was an interesting, um,awkward pause after she said
this.
And the counselor was like,Yeah, but should you?
(34:08):
Like, are are all of the schoolsa good fit for your kid?
Yeah.
And um, she clearly hadn'tthought about that, nor I think
will she after thatconversation.
But it was just like, it's not,well, it's not about you,
parent, mom, dad.
Um, it's about what does yourkid need?
And what where will your kidreally succeed?
(34:32):
And um maybe that's not one ofthe University of California
schools.
Maybe that is, you know, somemaybe it's the one in Cincinnati
or something like it's it'sreally important to be open to
all of these otheropportunities.
SPEAKER_01 (34:46):
I get that a lot where parents say, like, you
know, they meet me for the firsttime, they're like, Well, we're
gonna apply to all the Ivys.
And I'm like, you know, you justthink like Columbia, you're in
you're in a Cantaine campus inNew York City, Cornell, you're
like freezing cold winters inIthaca.
These are radically differentschools.
Let's like, let's talk a littlebit about what you're looking
(35:06):
for in your academic experience.
And maybe we do apply to acouple IVs.
I'm not anti-Ivy, but let'slet's really talk about what
your kid needs.
SPEAKER_00 (35:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
Um, I think this also brings me to another
conversation I think you need tohave with your kid.
The workload for applying tocollege is is substantial.
And if you particularly if youhave a kid who like is wants to
apply to elite um universities,and I just think having that
conversation with your son ordaughter, is this worth it?
Like, is this what we want to bedoing?
(35:36):
Are we gonna go down this pathof 20 to 30 essays?
Are we gonna go down the path ofmultiple rounds of taking the
SATs and tutoring and makingsure your summer is spent at an
institution that aligns withyour, you know, the program of
study?
Um and just having no judgment,right?
If that's where we're going,let's go there.
But have that conversationbefore you start it because I do
(35:57):
think it can be shocking to kidscome August when you're like,
all right, you've done yourpersonal narrative.
Now let's do 20 supplementals,right?
SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Never mind the school load of junior year,
senior, senior year.
SPEAKER_01 (36:08):
I'm talking about senior year, yeah.
Junior and senior year, yeah,yeah, junior and senior year.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
It is substantial.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (36:13):
You're looking at a high achieving kid who's taking
many, many rigorous classes.
So that's another like bestpractice for uh the adults in a
kid's life.
Um, this is also this is kind oflike a side note, but oftentimes
I have kids saying things like,Oh, I just want to look at
schools that are test optionalbecause I'm not like, you know,
I don't really want to study forthe SATs.
(36:34):
And I think that that's a wayparents can really help guide
kids.
I think we should all be lookingat standardized tests as like,
you know what, let's try ourbest.
Let's not close doors our junioryear, um, and see what happens
when we get those scores.
I think also so many schools aretest optional right now, um,
which is different than testblind, meaning they're not going
(36:55):
to look at your scores.
So, like some stats like uhPrinceton, 60% of applicants
submit their SATs, 25% submittheir ACTs.
So yeah, they're test optional,but kids are submitting.
Um, Duke said that 75% of thestudents that they admitted took
their SATs.
Again, test optional, but is itreally test optional, right?
(37:17):
Like you you start.
So I think like we can, that'sanother way parents can really
support kids.
It's like, let's take these SATsseriously and let's see how you
do.
And maybe they will open doors.
And they oftentimes, even if itdoesn't, if it's not, if it's
test optional in terms ofacceptance at the university,
kid parent uh schools are usingmerit aid to attract kids that
they want.
And so a huge way, a huge waythey do it, and this is the
(37:40):
nitty-gritty of it, but likekids with high SAT scores help
their stats, move them up theirrankings, and there's that's
where you're gonna see somereally huge merit packages.
Um yeah, I think my last thingis just it's really important to
remind students there are manypathways to the same
destination.
And um we're here to supportthem in all those different
(38:04):
pathways and also to keep asmany as we can open.
Um, and the best way to do thatis through honest conversations
early in the process.
SPEAKER_00 (38:12):
And hopefully not the first conversation happening
um their December or November oftheir junior year.
You've had these conversationsongoing because university is
it's a big step, it's a bigdecision.
Um, and if it's just thedecisions already made, this
child is going to university.
What does that look like?
(38:32):
Let's let's really like peelthat onion and make sure that we
we find the best fit for thiskid.
Um, so today we've talked aboutum what it is that um students
um should be looking for inschools and how parents can
support their student in thisprocess.
We've talked about setting andacademics and social life, all
(38:54):
of which you know really playinto that, what that feels like
once they're there.
We've talked about thatfinancial piece, which is
obviously um a very importantpiece.
Um and um we'll um dig much moreinto finances of university um
in our next podcast.
(39:15):
And then we talked aboutcreating a balance list and what
that really looks like.
Um definitely uh hopefully yourschool has a um a designated
college um counselor.
Um if there's not a specificcollege counselor, there will be
a counselor that isknowledgeable about the process.
And there are, of course, umeducational consultants that can
(39:37):
help through this process aswell.
Um, we'll list a few of theresources that um that Hannah
relies on and knows of in theshow notes that so you can um
really find the best fit for umyour kid and your family and
your finances.
(39:58):
And um hopefully.
This will listening to this hashelped you maybe, maybe not
necessarily answer all of yourquestions, but help you think of
different um questions that youand and give you resources where
you can get the best informationfor um finding a good fit.
SPEAKER_01 (40:18):
And any last thoughts?
No, thank you for your time.
Um feel free to reach out withany questions.
SPEAKER_00 (40:25):
We love questions, so please do uh please do send
them our way.
So thanks very much for joining,and we'll have um number three
shared soon enough.
Thank you very much.
Bye.
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