June 2, 2023 • 38 mins
"Don't call it electrocuting fish," was our first lesson in electrofishing- a practice where you temporarily stun and collect fish and other aquatic wildlife to determine the health of a stream or waterway. We took our podcast on location to Howard's Creek in Whitewater Township with Sara Fehring and Sarah Meadows from the Hamilton County Conservation District. So, grab your rubber waders and your net and get ready to learn about electrofishing and why we collect this data on the fish population!
To learn more about Hamilton County, Ohio, our services and job openings, visit hamiltoncountyohio.gov.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff Aluotto (00:09):
All right, we're back. Welcome to heart and
hustle in Hamilton Countypodcast about Hamilton County
government and policies andemployees and the people working
to bring public service to theresidents of this community. I'm
your host, Jeff Alito CountyAdministrator with me, as always
is Bridget Doherty. Hello,hello. Hello.
Bridget Doherty (00:29):
Glad to be here.
Jeff Aluotto (00:30):
So Bridget, we are just returning from our first
ever on location podcast, right?
Bridget Doherty (00:40):
It was so fun.
Jeff Aluotto (00:41):
It this. This was with all due respect to all of
our past guests. This had tohave been our best episode of
all time.
Bridget Doherty (00:51):
I think we just lucked out. It was fantastic
weather we were in a beautifulenvironment. I want to say we
were in the middle of Harrisonslash Crosby townships
Jeff Aluotto (01:02):
somewhere. I forgot my passport so I didn't
know quite where we wound up butwe were we were out way on the
northwest side in a creek,talking with an expert about
what we had teased in a priorepisode about electrocuting
fish. And
Bridget Doherty (01:22):
yeah, that actually that I know that our
hosts for our on the location ofevents didn't really like that
term didn't like electrocutingfish
Jeff Aluotto (01:32):
did not go over well, let's just be honest, it
did not go over well, but we didhave the pleasure of meeting up
with Sarah meadows and Sarahfairing to fantastic
professionals from the HamiltonCounty Soil and Water
Conservation District. And whilethey may have disagreed with our
terminology, electrocuting fishso last time I'm gonna say it
(01:55):
they had a tremendous amount toshare with us about the natural
resources we have in this countyand how our professionals that
soil and water go about studyingour natural resources making
sure that we've got a healthyenvironment here in the
community. I thought it waspretty cool. It was very cool.
So
Bridget Doherty (02:10):
let's let's go right to the right to the creek
Jeff Aluotto (02:21):
All right, so we are out here on location for the
first ever on location, versionof heart and hustle in Hamilton
County. We are on Sara Whatriver or stream are we on here?
Sarah Meadows (02:33):
This is Howard's Creek
Jeff Aluotto (02:35):
we are in Howard's Creek. We've been advertising
and and teasing this edition ofheart and hustle for Bridgette
how long
Bridget Doherty (02:44):
at least the last episode that we did. Okay,
so
Jeff Aluotto (02:47):
it hasn't been that long. But we are out here
in our town it for a while we'vebeen talking about it for a
while we're out here on Howard'sCreek. And we're going to if
you're listening to this episodeof heart and hustle, you are
going to learn about some reallycool things that Hamilton County
employees and departments do toprotect and preserve the
environment. Not every job inHamilton County is sitting
(03:10):
behind a desk, you have theopportunity to do some really
really cool things. And we'rehere with Sarah meadows and
Sarah fairing with the HamiltonCounty Soil and Water
Conservation District, which themission of which is to protect
and preserve the soil and waterresources of our county. And
we're thrilled to be out herewith them today. And I've got my
(03:31):
co host Bridget Doherty with me.
Hello
Bridget Doherty (03:33):
everyone. I location with wet feet already
with
Jeff Aluotto (03:38):
wet feet already.
And we're going to be doingsomething today called electro
fishing and we have a reallyfantastic resources resource
with the county that is Sarameadows, who has walked us down
to this location with somethingthat looks like a proton
accelerator on her back. SoSarah, welcome to Heart and
hustle in Hamilton County. Andtell us a little bit about what
(03:59):
we're going to be doing today.
Sarah Meadows (04:03):
Well, thank you for having me on the podcast.
I'm excited to get some peopleout here and get them wet and
dirty and see what we're doing.
We are going to be electrofishing which stuns the fish in
order so that we can get a goodsample and a good look into how
the fish population is doing inHoward's creek here. So, when I
(04:25):
describe what is electrofishing, why the heck do we do
it? I like to start with ananalogy. So if you want to know
how is my aunt and uncle andniece and nephew doing how are
they doing? There's many thingsthat you could do. You could ask
them how you guys do it. Okay,that's easy way or you could go
(04:49):
look at their house. UK is theirhabitat healthy has their house
in good condition. They havegood shelter do they have Have
all of their needs met abathroom, a kitchen, a bedroom,
all of those things, okay, theirhabitat looks good, that's a
good sign check. You could lookat their food supply, how's
(05:09):
their food, the refrigeratorstocked, they got a variety of
all the foods they need to meettheir nutritional needs. That's
the other thing. And the finalthing that you could look at is
testing the quality of theirenvironment. So how's the air
quality that they're breathing?
How's the quality of the waterthey're drinking, you could do
all that. And then from thatmake a determination. Well, this
(05:32):
was about five out of 10, thiswas eight out of 10. So they're
probably doing pretty well, or,or whatever. Or you could ask
them, right. And so the reason Iwent into all that is because
when we want to know the healthof a stream, that is what goes
into it. We assess the habitat,are there trees, is the water
(05:53):
clean, we do water chemistrytesting. So that's habitat.
That's like testing air, I wassaying test the water quality.
And the last thing is the food.
So we'll check themacroinvertebrates, which are
the bugs that live in there,which is another food source of
some of the fish. Or you canjust catch the fish and see
who's there.
Jeff Aluotto (06:14):
So that and so that's what we're going to be
doing today is actually catchingthe fish, and using electric
current to catch the fish sothat you can assess how healthy
is the stream? What kind of guysare living in here, right?
Sarah Meadows (06:26):
Yeah, yeah. And so that's why the biological
testing, catching the fish is soimportant, because all of those
other things I've spent all thattime explaining is what goes
into determining what fishpopulation lives here. All of
those things have to be good tohave a good fish population. So
Jeff Aluotto (06:45):
the zoo, the type of fish that you wind up
catching the UC, can give you anunderstanding of all those other
things that you talked about howhealthy is you're not going to
get certain types of fish, ifthe chemical composition of the
stream might be really bad, orif certain types of plants
(07:05):
aren't there, you're not gonnasee fish. So this gives you a,
an indicator of the health ofthe stream through one sampling
mechanisms that
Sarah Meadows (07:14):
that's exactly right. And that's why this
biological or fish sampling isso valuable. I will also say
that it has taken me severalyears to get level three
certified, which is the highestcertification. That's the data
that EPA uses and everything.
And there are, I don't know, 20people in the state that are
level three certified. Sothere's no one in southwest Ohio
(07:35):
other than myself now that havethat certification, really. So
it's just a valuable resourcethat can be used for by many
groups to determine the healthof the store.
Jeff Aluotto (07:47):
Many people in the state of Ohio have that
certification getting would yousay, I don't know the
Sarah Meadows (07:50):
exact number, but it's like 20 or 30, somewhere in
there.
Jeff Aluotto (07:55):
But the point being is very few and Sarah
faring. We have this history atthe Soil and Water Conservation
District of just getting expertsin their field. Right. So this
is fantastic. So we're justthrilled to have you working for
Hamilton County. And again, thepurpose of this podcast is to
tell people the work we're doingbut also, if you're listening to
(08:16):
this to hey, I want to I want togo into a field where I can
protect the environment. Butgosh, can I really do that
working for the county? Yes, youcan. And Sarah is living proof
of that. So awesome. And well,before we get started might also
just be going to take a coupleof seconds and talking about
where we talked about we're onHoward's Creek, right, which is
a tributary of what is the
Sarah Meadows (08:41):
Great Miami
Jeff Aluotto (08:42):
Great Miami. Okay.
And we're out at a UC Universityof Cincinnati research facility.
Right. Let's just wanted to talka little bit about where we are
and the partnership that youguys have with with University
of Cincinnati.
Sarah Meadows (08:53):
Yeah, so this is the UC Center for Field Studies.
It is actually an old shakerhome that that house in the barn
that was on the property used tobe shaker property. And they
renovated it in partnership withgreat parks. So this is sort of
like a great parks, you seeproperty partnership. And they
(09:14):
use it as classrooms. And theyrecently also built the karf,
which is an archaeologicalresearch center. So they not
only do biological research,they do archaeological research
here. They have rain gardens,and prairies and all of those
other things that they use foreducational purposes out here as
(09:34):
well as the stream. They getstudents out here sometimes do
Jeff Aluotto (09:37):
awesome. Well, thanks to UC and great parks for
helping us with this today aswell. So all right, Bridget,
what do you what do you think?
Bridget Doherty (09:44):
You know, I'm kind of ready to get started.
I'm wondering, should we get toyour safety mechanisms of this
because you do kind of
Jeff Aluotto (09:51):
like not I'm more I think we should just get the
electricity out and shove it inthe water right now. Right? No,
probably probably a good point.
But you guys said Was the foodwhat do we need? What do we need
to know?
Sarah Meadows (10:04):
Yeah, so there are many different ways of
electrofishing. This is abackpack electric Fisher. That's
what we're going to be usingtoday. As you said, we look a
little bit like Ghostbusters.
For everyone that can't seewhat's going on. You can't elect
your fish from a boat, you canelect your fish from what's
called a tow barge, which is alittle bit like a sled that you
tow behind you with like agenerator and stuff. So that's a
(10:25):
little bit higher powered forlarger bodies of water. This is
a cute little stream, babblingin the woods. And so we can use
the smaller backpack electricfissure, it's perfectly
adequate, has a little bit lowervoltage and amperage that will
set it to so if you accidentallystick your hand in the water
while it's turned on, you'll geta little tingle, but it's not
(10:47):
going to it's not going to bedangerous. Mostly,
Jeff Aluotto (10:56):
I told you, my wife told me that the only rules
you have for me today was not tocome home electrocuted? Yeah, so
we could try to avoid that. So
Sarah Meadows (11:03):
let me talk about some of the parts of this. So
the way that it works is youhave an anode and a cathode a
positive and a negative. Andwhen you put them both in the
water, the water completes thecircuit between them. So it
doesn't alternate doesn't goboth ways. The current like most
of the currents in your housedo. It's a direct current, the
loop goes one direction. So youhave to have the anode and
(11:27):
cathode, the positive andnegative in the water at the
same time to complete thecircuit. And it goes always from
the anode, which is this polethat I'll be holding with the
metal ring on the end, andthere's a switch on it. You see
the switch is rubber and it'spermanently in the off position.
That way, if I were to trip andfall while I'm electrofishing it
(11:51):
and I let go of it, it'll openand turn off. That's one of the
safety features.
Jeff Aluotto (11:57):
Go lawnmower right? You know, yes? Got it.
Okay, yes, exactly
Sarah Meadows (12:00):
like that. So I have to hold it down in order to
turn the anode ring on. Theother part is what we call the
rat tail. And it is a sort oflike a metal wire that's
attached to the backpack thatdrags behind me in the water.
That's why we call it the rattail. And that's the cathode. So
that's the other end of theloop. So it'll go between this,
(12:22):
this ring that I can kind of putwherever I want to, and this rat
tail that drags behind me, andit goes back into the equipment
through this lithium battery,and back out the ring, and then
a loop through the water. Cool.
All right. So some other safetyfeatures, there's a big red
button on top, you just put itdown to turn it off. It has a
(12:45):
water detector near the bottomso that if I get deep in the
water or I fall and it gets wet,it'll automatically shut off. It
has a tilt detector. So if Ifall and I tilt forward or
backward too far, it'llautomatically turn off
Jeff Aluotto (13:06):
there are what types of what types of fish
would you expect to find in anelectro fishing sample that
would indicate a completelyhealthy string.
Sarah Meadows (13:23):
So there's actually a lot more that goes
into it. We we use, we capturethe capture the fish. And once
we capture our sample, we wantto get 100% of what we can over
a specified distance during aspecified amount of time. And
(13:45):
that will give us a good pictureof what's there. We collect
them, we weigh them and countthem because the number of each
species and the variation insize will also tell us something
you want a healthy population.
So you need adults that aremaking babies and you need
babies to be the nextgeneration. So you want a lot of
different sizes.
Jeff Aluotto (14:05):
So you're talking a lot about number size. Didn't
hear you mention as much abouttypes. Is that is it?
Is there anything orif you find certain types of
fish that would indicate maybe amore polluted stream versus
another type that would say,hey, if we have this type of
(14:30):
critter in here, the streamsgotta be pretty, pretty healthy.
Bridget Doherty (14:35):
Somewhere like an indicator species. Yeah,
Sarah Meadows (14:38):
yeah. So some species of fish are more
sensitive to pollution or theyhave a more specialized habitat
that they need. And other typesof fish are sort of
opportunists. So they can liveon scraps belly, whatever.
They're like garbage disposalslike a carp for eggs. sample.
(15:00):
And they're not as particularabout the amount of pollution
and more tolerant of it. Sosensitive and tolerant are kind
of the words we use fordifferent fish species. And
ideally, we get a variety ofthem. Just because they're
tolerant of pollution doesn'tmean that it's bad to get those,
you need those. Also, you needthe whole variety. So there's a
greater number of species aswhat we want not just specific,
(15:21):
sensitive species, you want allof them, I just have to plug
darters really quick. So dartersare my favorite group of fish.
They are the coral reef fish offreshwater streams, they are
blue, orange, green, brightcolored, striped and spotted.
Yes, they're beautiful. They arebeautiful little fishes. They
(15:43):
typically don't get more thantwo to four inches, depending on
the species as adults. Sothey're small. That's another
thing that I'll say. You don'talways want big fish. It's not a
fishing contests. You know, youwant the small species
Bridget Doherty (15:57):
to show how often do you do this?
Sarah Meadows (15:59):
Well, that depends. We are starting a
volunteer electro fishingprogram here this year, this
will be the first year thatwe're doing it. And we'll go out
a couple times a month tocollect data on some of the
sites that they have a decade'sworth of water chemistry,
volunteer data on already. Sowe'll be adding biological data
(16:20):
to that existing dataset, whichis really exciting. For the
first time, there's a couple ofdifferent things that we'll use
this data for, we'll use it forthe volunteer data to add to
that data we already have, likeI said, and we'll also use it
for some of our own purposes forstream monitoring and stream
(16:40):
improvement projects and to getgrants to fund these stream
improvement projects. And soit's kind of as a as needed
basis. You might need to do itbefore and after a project to
show that it was effective. Youknow, are there more species
here than there were before andwe can help out our partners as
well who might be wanting to getgrants, because like we said
(17:02):
before, there's not a lot ofpeople that can do this. So and
it's it's very valuable. It's Idon't know what the monetary
value is think if you hiresomeone to do it, it's several
$1,000 For one site,
Jeff Aluotto (17:14):
what's the overall purpose from a county wide
perspective in terms of doingthis?
Sarah Meadows (17:19):
So one of the values of us being able to do it
ourselves, aside from the EPA,and Midwest Biodiversity
Institute also does regularsampling across the state, they
have set sites that they usuallycome to on a five year cycle, to
just check in, they'll assessthose completely, not just fish
and determine how healthy it is.
But there might be sites thatwe'll need sooner than that, or
(17:43):
we don't can't pay someone to doit. Or it's a site that they're
not willing to sample that wecan just go out and get that
data on the sites that we needdata on that it doesn't already
exist.
Jeff Aluotto (17:57):
And so this equipment, Sarah, you were
telling us earlier, this wasactually funded through a grant,
right?
Sarah Meadows (18:05):
Yes, so we applied for a grant through the
ohio Environmental EducationFund, which is an EPA grant. And
the reason that we got aneducation fund grant to do
science, scientific datacollection, and by this
equipment, is because there's acouple of different audiences
that we want to reach. Sothere's a huge value, as we've
(18:26):
been talking about, in gettingthis data for ourselves and our
partners, but also, through thevolunteer program, engaging the
general public in a way thathasn't been done before, and
letting them see and assistfirsthand in doing this level
three, high quality datacollection. And we also plan on
doing some public worksworkshops, you know, they have
(18:49):
to get a lot of permits and obeya lot of regulations in their,
their work. So we plan to havesome opportunities for them to
come out and see some of thefish that live in the streams
that they probably didn'trealize live there like those
colorful darters Those are fun,charismatic one.
Jeff Aluotto (19:06):
And that's really cool that you're that you're
doing that because you have alot of people working in public
service, who whether they'reengineers or public works,
officials, like you said, Sarah,and, you know, they, they're
responsible for a very valuableaspect of developing this
county, right, but to make surethey understand the specifics of
(19:27):
here's the interaction betweenwhat you're doing, and the
health of the naturalenvironment is really important.
So it's really cool that you'rereaching out to those different
industry sectors as well as justthe the residents of the county
for volunteers. So that'sawesome. Yeah, we're looking
forward to it. And you can tellus here has done this multiple
times because she flipped thepole up with her foot, like like
(19:49):
my kid might do a soccer ball.
So, this is clearly we are weare in the hands of an expert
here. So to do this in in incommon areas, you do it in the
riffles. Or where's the best wayto do it?
Sarah Meadows (20:03):
All of the above.
Because remember, we want acomplete picture, we want all
the species, some species preferthe pools, some species prefer
the riffles. So we really wantthat complete picture. There's a
lot of specific ways that yousample, for example, we're gonna
walk downstream a little bit andwalk back towards you, you
always want to sample upstream.
And the main reason is that sowhen you're walking in the
(20:26):
creek, and you stir up all themud, it goes behind you. So you
can see what you're doing. Wealso have some polarized
sunglasses to help it see thefish better. And you kind of do
everything you can to sample,get a complete sample and get
all of the species that arerepresentative of this
(20:46):
particular Creek. You don't wantto miss anything like
Jeff Aluotto (20:49):
into the like, exactly call them but like where
the stream arose out, likebehind like trees and stuff, do
certain types of fish that mightlive back there, that
might be more.
Sarah Meadows (21:00):
So absolutely, just trying
Jeff Aluotto (21:02):
to get a good sample of all the different
areas.
Sarah Meadows (21:06):
Yeah, like there's a big log with some
sticks and leaves and stuffjammed up to it, we're probably
gonna stick it right under thereand see if there's anything
hiding in there. That's a greathabitat spot to get. And there's
some different samplingtechniques to get them out of
the riffles and all that stuff.
So what to see what we get
Jeff Aluotto (21:22):
great. Now my natural inclination would be to
walk right alongside of you andmess up everything you're doing.
So I'm assuming you want us tostay here while you guys do
this, right. I just don't wantto I don't want to mess anything
up here.
Sarah Meadows (21:33):
Yeah, yeah, that'd be fine. We're not gonna
go that far. Well, so here'sanother thing to think about.
See, we're standing right nextto a little riffle here. And
there's a pool right in front ofus. So we're gonna go down to
the bottom of the pool and workour way up towards this riffle.
And what's gonna happen is wewon't get much at first. But
soon as you get to the top ofthis pool up at this riffle.
(21:55):
It's like you're hurting thefish. You got to be prepared as
a netter. Which is you? Youknow, you can know mentally when
we get to the top of that pool.
That's when you're gonna like,be ready. Scoop, scoop, scoop,
scoop scoop. Yeah.
Jeff Aluotto (22:10):
Because right now, I see no fish, right. I mean, so
yeah, I'm imagine that isdeceiving.
Sarah Meadows (22:18):
That is what's so interesting about it. People
look and they say there'snothing in here. This little
riffle is what? I don't know,four inches deep in the deepest
spots here. There's fish inthere. You wouldn't think that's
darters love the riffles.
Jeff Aluotto (22:32):
We're gonna test you on this era. So here we go.
See what happens here.
Sarah Meadows (22:36):
Yeah. Now watch, I'll eat my words, we won't get
anything. It's even amazing howwell though big fish you can
hide. Like you don't seeanything, you might get a big
one turn it up, you don't know.
(22:59):
So let's see, just to describewhat's going on right now. I'm
holding the lever down, I got myring. I'm directing the ring
underneath of rocks along thebank, I'm kind of stirring out
the fish so that Sarah here canscoop them up and put them into
our bucket of water. And I willsay that we're not getting 100%
(23:20):
of the fish that we see.
Scooping is a lot harder thanyou would think. Here's a good
one little guy, but he'scolorful. They're actually drawn
to the electrical field. So whenthey're stung, they're drawn to
this ring that I have. And mostfish float because they have a
swim bladder. But the ones thatwe're catching here is mostly
(23:41):
darters. darters are the onlygroup of fish that do not have a
swim bladder, because they liketo sit on the bottom. And
they'll hide under rocks anddirt out and catch bugs. It's
why they're called darters. Theysit on the bottom kind of
positioned like like a seal upontheir fins. And they sink
because they don't have a swimbladder that makes them float.
(24:04):
Now we're getting to the top ofthe pool here so there's a
little bit more fishes. Yep.
Bridget Doherty (24:13):
Know fish were harmed during this taping. There
it is.
Sarah Meadows (24:17):
Yeah, so there's quite a few crayfish living in
this cool. We saw lots of thosehurdles, tadpoles, anything in
there will be impacted by it.
But just like the fish, theyusually just get stunned in some
way. So here if you want tohelp, I'm going to put this
bucket over here for you.
Jeff Aluotto (24:42):
Oh my gosh, yeah, look at that.
Sarah Meadows (24:44):
I have a little tank there. I'll put them in so
you guys can see them and I'llpoint out different species.
We've got some darters we'll getI'll pick out some colorful ones
for you to look at.
Jeff Aluotto (24:53):
So the little in this is similar to what you told
me when we first started. Thelittle fish that I saw They got
zapped, and then he was backupswimming around and like seven,
eight seconds. You got some bigguys in here. There's still a
Sarah Meadows (25:07):
little bit out of it. Yeah. They'll take longer to
recover.
Jeff Aluotto (25:11):
That's what you said earlier you said the bigger
guys are kind of more sensitiveto this.
Sarah Meadows (25:15):
Right? Yeah, it's all about surface area, they
have a bigger surface areabecause their body is bigger, so
they conduct more currentthrough them. I
Jeff Aluotto (25:23):
would never have guessed that I would have
thought the little guys wouldhave been affected more. But
that's really interesting.
Bridget Doherty (25:28):
Is that a? Is that a normal sample for you?
Know, Oh, do you do much more?
Sarah Meadows (25:33):
We do 200 meters.
Bridget Doherty (25:35):
Okay. Probably only did how many meters would
you say? So you could really beout here a nice half day. Hold
all day.
Sarah Meadows (25:45):
Yeah, you have 3600 seconds to do 200 meters.
It's very specific. So you havean hour to to fish, that does
not include setup, getting yourequipment down. And then this
next part actually sometimestakes the longest depending on
how many you get.
Jeff Aluotto (26:03):
Is there a difference between doing this in
the winter versus the summer?
Sarah Meadows (26:06):
Fish behave differently in different times
of the year? Because it's coldand they're slower and kind of
hunker down, and there's lessfood? So they're not trying to
use up energy? Yeah, yeah,there's, it's really important
to select a good site that willbe representative of the
waterway that you're sampling.
So by waterway, I mean, all ofHoward's Creek. If we're going
(26:27):
to take one 200 meter sample onHoward's Creek, you better make
sure that that represents allthe habitats that are on all of
Howard's Creek. So you have toreally select a good spot.
Bridget Doherty (26:40):
I get questions about Sarah, what did you study
in school? Like, how did you getto this point?
Sarah Meadows (26:47):
Well, I'm gonna get some fish out for you while
we're talking. Perfect. That'sokay. So I have a biology degree
and a chemistry minor. Andoriginally since about fifth
grade. I said I'm going to studymarine biology. So I took all
the like ecology type coursesand stuff in my biology degree.
(27:12):
I did a study abroad and marinebiology and learned all the
those research techniques andeverything. The Galapagos
Islands. Wow. So I lived therefor five months and did did all
kinds of stuff. So that waspretty cool. So what was I
saying? Oh, marine biology sowell, I ended up marrying this
(27:33):
is a Hamilton County podcast,right? Yes. I ended up marrying
a West sider so I'm stuck here.
No, Cincinnati has to know whatthat means.
Bridget Doherty (27:41):
As a West sider. Yes. Hailing from
shivian. Yes, I totallyunderstand that.
Sarah Meadows (27:47):
So I redirected
Jeff Aluotto (27:49):
our new our listening audience goes well,
beyond him will be able tocounty, roughly 400 square miles
and just socially, historically,always. Divided east side, west
side. Correct. So we now knowthat
Bridget Doherty (28:11):
what high school did your husband go to
Colerain. Or you go up there, Igotta say in watching all of
this, it seems like you reallyenjoy your job
Sarah Meadows (28:19):
I do. I will tell you a little bit more about my
background. Well, actually, bothmy parents worked for great
parks growing up. So I kind ofgrew up in and around nature,
it's close to my heart. And incollege, I got a college job as
an environmental educator, do anaturalist kind of stuff
(28:39):
outdoors. And I really lovedteaching people about the
environment and showing theminteresting things that they
might not have expected to seein it so they can learn about it
and foster the love of their ownof nature. And this job, I get
to kind of do both things. I getto teach people about nature and
collect the data, and I get toget people out doing it with me.
(29:02):
And so I think that's reallycool. So I'm picking out some
different species here, pickingthem out of our bucket. And so
what are we seeing the most ofhere? I haven't looked at all of
them yet a lot of shiners. So,there's different groups of
fish. There's sunfish likebluegill. There's starters which
we've talked about, there'sshiners, which are the little
(29:22):
kind of minnow fish. And it'sgood to have representation from
all the different groups.
predators like bass are good tohave. We've got Creek Chubs are
a minnow there's some blacknosedace is another minnow there's a
darter here. This is called afan tail darter. There's so
right now it's springtime. Andso the males are looking real
(29:45):
pretty. The males are the prettyones sort of like in birds. In
this the species that aredimorphic that have different
males and females. The males arevery pretty. This is a blunt
nose minnow, so He's got thesetubercles on his nose. That
means he's handsome. Really?
That's his breeding tubercleshe's very bright colored striped
(30:08):
down the sides very bold. He's ahandsome guy.
Bridget Doherty (30:12):
I would have never thought that there would
be this many fish in a creek,just in a small creek. Yeah.
Jeff Aluotto (30:19):
And you mentioned you mentioned bass. Do you pull
bass out of the creek this size?
Like I mean, obviously smaller.
But
Sarah Meadows (30:25):
yeah. Hanging out in the pool. Sometimes.
Sometimes it's just a good placefor the young to grow up safer
before they get bigger and goout. Let me show you this
starter.
Jeff Aluotto (30:35):
These are the guys you were talking about the kind
of suit at the bottom on theiron their fins. And
Sarah Meadows (30:39):
yeah, yeah. And this guy is a nice colorful one.
You guys can see all the orangeand blue stripes like a parrot
or something. Yeah. Hey, he'sback. Yeah, he's flopping
around, buddy. He's got thestripes on his dorsal fin there
and all of his fins. Really?
Jeff Aluotto (30:54):
Yeah. You never really see them up this close to
realize how colorful they are. Imean, it does almost look like a
tropical fish.
Sarah Meadows (31:00):
When I put them in the tank. Do you see he
immediately went to the bottom?
He's down there. This guy's gota nice orange colored tail.
That's his breeding colors tothat might be Oh, Sam shiner
soon shiner to be a sand shiner.
Yeah, so get your hands wet.
Yeah, thank you. Because fishactually the reason that fish
feel slimy, if anyone evertouched a fish, when you're
(31:22):
fishing with your grandpa, whenyou're little or whatever,
that's actually a coating, likea sort of a mucous coating on
them that protects them fromgetting infections and getting
sick. Oh my gosh, he's reallycool. His dorsal fin is the
makes him distinct from all theother darters. He's got a short,
spiky dorsal fin, you see hisfront dorsal fin, it's much
(31:43):
shorter than that. And it's likespiky, we have to look at every
single one Id every single one,sort them, weigh them, count
them. And it takes a while. Sothat's why this part actually
sometimes takes longer thandoing the sampling. What would
you
Bridget Doherty (32:01):
like people to know about your job and how
important it is?
Sarah Meadows (32:07):
Well, like I said at the beginning, the biology is
just part of the picture. Butit's an important part, because
you can go see how your aunt anduncle and their niece and nephew
are doing assessing all thisother stuff. Or you can just go
ask them.
Jeff Aluotto (32:21):
So how will we use this? What's the next step in
terms of using this data? Wedon't collect the data just to
collect it. But what are we?
What are we using it for?
Sarah Meadows (32:32):
So after you look at every single fish that you
catch you IDM you sort them andweigh them and write it all
down, you take that back, andyou calculate what you call and
IBI score, which is an index ofby biological integrity, which
takes into account the varietyof sizes of a species, the
(32:52):
number of species, the varietyof families of fish. So it takes
into account all the things thatyou could to get a numerical
score, there is a database, EPAand MBI, which is Midwest
Biodiversity Institute, they doregular sampling on those five
year cycles. It's publiclyavailable that EPA just did and
(33:16):
last year, they did anassessment with MBI and
Cincinnati MSD on the Mill Creekin Hamilton County. And so in
December, they did apresentation on all that
information on are those sitesstill attaining the status that
they should? Or they still warmwater or whatever they're
supposed to be? If not, what dowe need to do to get them back
(33:37):
to what they're supposed to be?
Bridget Doherty (33:39):
And I think that'd be really helpful for
residents of the county to justkind of wonder, okay, there's a
creek in the back of my house inyou know, green Township, you
know, what's the health of thatcreek?
Sarah Meadows (33:51):
Right? Yeah, that's that's all publicly
available information.
Jeff Aluotto (33:57):
All right. Well, you know, we've been out here
now for probably better courseof an hour now. I'm just we
could probably continue watchingSarah. She's going to continue
to pull up fish out of thisbucket for about the next two
hours. Unfortunately, on heartand hustle in Hamilton County,
our time is a little bit morelimited. But this has been
(34:20):
absolutely fascinating. I thinkwe provided a window into the
environment in Hamilton Countythat we just simply didn't know
about, both from a naturalperspective but also into career
opportunities and professionsthat go on within Hamilton
County government that I amgoing to wager most people would
probably not know that they hadthe opportunity to pursue if
(34:45):
they're interested in scienceand in the environment, etc. So
Sarah and Sarah really want tothank you for your time out here
today. This has been incrediblyilluminating, Bridget any
Bridget Doherty (35:00):
No, I just think what you do is, is kind of
fun. And I just think, you know,like having having to be able to
do this as a profession is isawesome. So I really thank you
and I thank you for keepingtrack of all of our great
streams in this county, it neverceases to amaze me how different
this county is from like oururban core to being out here in
(35:23):
Whitewater Township, CrosbyTownship, and how beautiful it
is, to thank you for what youdo.
Sarah Meadows (35:29):
And anyone that's really interested, I will say
this is the first year we'regetting our volunteer program up
and running. So we probablydon't have extra spots for that.
But in future, we're hoping tohave some, like demos and
workshops. So anyone that's justinterested in what this is, look
out for those events, we'll justhave people out to see what it
(35:49):
is. So it's all about
Jeff Aluotto (35:50):
figuring out a way we'll we'll definitely advertise
for that, and amplify that onyour behalf. And then also just
Sarah, just thanks to all of theemployees for the Soil and Water
Conservation District foreverything they do every day to
help with the environment,whether it's on the soil side of
things, or stream health, likewe're talking about here or on
(36:12):
the environmental educationfront as well. So thanks
everything you guys do,
Bridget Doherty (36:15):
I will say one plug for soil and water is they
have great social media. So tofollow soil and water to find
out about those volunteeropportunities, and just all the
really cool things that they'redoing for our environment. All
right, great. Sounds good.
Thanks, guys. Thank you so much.
We really appreciate it. We'llsee you back in the studio.
Jeff Aluotto (36:33):
Excellent. We'll be back shortly.
Sarah Meadows (36:35):
Thanks for coming out with us.
Jeff Aluotto (36:42):
All right, we're back inside. I've got the mud
boots off. And we're back at ourstudio here. Bridget, you have
to it that had to been one ofour most epic episodes of all
time. It
Bridget Doherty (36:54):
was so cool that now I want to go out to
planning and developments, firehydrant crew and go and test
fire hydrants throughout thecounty. I feel like we got we're
onto something. We got to keepit on the road.
Jeff Aluotto (37:05):
I think you're right. We have to do that. And I
love the idea of fire hydrants.
I think we also need to get outseason building inspectors in
the field really bring to peoplewho are regular listeners, the
work. All employees of HamiltonCounty, not just those that are
in an office, but people thatare out serving the community
actually in the community, Ithink it'd be fantastic. But
(37:26):
before we go, Bridgette, wouldyou agree with me that this
episode was in fact our mostshocking episode of all time?
All right,
Bridget Doherty (37:42):
there you go. I found that button. There we go.
Jeff Aluotto (37:46):
So, for all of you, who've listened to this
episode, I want to thank all ofyou for listening to heart and
hustle in Hamilton County was apleasure to be out with Sarah's
out on the west side, talkingabout the natural environment.
And we'll be back with youshortly to talk about some more
valuable public services thatcounty government brings to to
(38:09):
the community. So on behalf ofmy co host Berger Doherty please
check us out on Apple podcast,Spotify and other providers. And
as always, you can find thispodcast on Hamilton County
ohio.gov on the countyadministrator's page. I'm Jeff
Alito. We'll see you next time.
All right, we're back. Welcome to heart and
hustle in Hamilton Countypodcast about Hamilton County
government and policies andemployees and the people working
to bring public service to theresidents of this community. I'm
your host, Jeff Alito CountyAdministrator with me, as always
is Bridget Doherty. Hello,hello. Hello.
Bridget Doherty (00:29):
Glad to be here.
Jeff Aluotto (00:30):
So Bridget, we are just returning from our first
ever on location podcast, right?
Bridget Doherty (00:40):
It was so fun.
Jeff Aluotto (00:41):
It this. This was with all due respect to all of
our past guests. This had tohave been our best episode of
all time.
Bridget Doherty (00:51):
I think we just lucked out. It was fantastic
weather we were in a beautifulenvironment. I want to say we
were in the middle of Harrisonslash Crosby townships
Jeff Aluotto (01:02):
somewhere. I forgot my passport so I didn't
know quite where we wound up butwe were we were out way on the
northwest side in a creek,talking with an expert about
what we had teased in a priorepisode about electrocuting
fish. And
Bridget Doherty (01:22):
yeah, that actually that I know that our
hosts for our on the location ofevents didn't really like that
term didn't like electrocutingfish
Jeff Aluotto (01:32):
did not go over well, let's just be honest, it
did not go over well, but we didhave the pleasure of meeting up
with Sarah meadows and Sarahfairing to fantastic
professionals from the HamiltonCounty Soil and Water
Conservation District. And whilethey may have disagreed with our
terminology, electrocuting fishso last time I'm gonna say it
(01:55):
they had a tremendous amount toshare with us about the natural
resources we have in this countyand how our professionals that
soil and water go about studyingour natural resources making
sure that we've got a healthyenvironment here in the
community. I thought it waspretty cool. It was very cool.
So
Bridget Doherty (02:10):
let's let's go right to the right to the creek
Jeff Aluotto (02:21):
All right, so we are out here on location for the
first ever on location, versionof heart and hustle in Hamilton
County. We are on Sara Whatriver or stream are we on here?
Sarah Meadows (02:33):
This is Howard's Creek
Jeff Aluotto (02:35):
we are in Howard's Creek. We've been advertising
and and teasing this edition ofheart and hustle for Bridgette
how long
Bridget Doherty (02:44):
at least the last episode that we did. Okay,
so
Jeff Aluotto (02:47):
it hasn't been that long. But we are out here
in our town it for a while we'vebeen talking about it for a
while we're out here on Howard'sCreek. And we're going to if
you're listening to this episodeof heart and hustle, you are
going to learn about some reallycool things that Hamilton County
employees and departments do toprotect and preserve the
environment. Not every job inHamilton County is sitting
(03:10):
behind a desk, you have theopportunity to do some really
really cool things. And we'rehere with Sarah meadows and
Sarah fairing with the HamiltonCounty Soil and Water
Conservation District, which themission of which is to protect
and preserve the soil and waterresources of our county. And
we're thrilled to be out herewith them today. And I've got my
(03:31):
co host Bridget Doherty with me.
Hello
Bridget Doherty (03:33):
everyone. I location with wet feet already
with
Jeff Aluotto (03:38):
wet feet already.
And we're going to be doingsomething today called electro
fishing and we have a reallyfantastic resources resource
with the county that is Sarameadows, who has walked us down
to this location with somethingthat looks like a proton
accelerator on her back. SoSarah, welcome to Heart and
hustle in Hamilton County. Andtell us a little bit about what
(03:59):
we're going to be doing today.
Sarah Meadows (04:03):
Well, thank you for having me on the podcast.
I'm excited to get some peopleout here and get them wet and
dirty and see what we're doing.
We are going to be electrofishing which stuns the fish in
order so that we can get a goodsample and a good look into how
the fish population is doing inHoward's creek here. So, when I
(04:25):
describe what is electrofishing, why the heck do we do
it? I like to start with ananalogy. So if you want to know
how is my aunt and uncle andniece and nephew doing how are
they doing? There's many thingsthat you could do. You could ask
them how you guys do it. Okay,that's easy way or you could go
(04:49):
look at their house. UK is theirhabitat healthy has their house
in good condition. They havegood shelter do they have Have
all of their needs met abathroom, a kitchen, a bedroom,
all of those things, okay, theirhabitat looks good, that's a
good sign check. You could lookat their food supply, how's
(05:09):
their food, the refrigeratorstocked, they got a variety of
all the foods they need to meettheir nutritional needs. That's
the other thing. And the finalthing that you could look at is
testing the quality of theirenvironment. So how's the air
quality that they're breathing?
How's the quality of the waterthey're drinking, you could do
all that. And then from thatmake a determination. Well, this
(05:32):
was about five out of 10, thiswas eight out of 10. So they're
probably doing pretty well, or,or whatever. Or you could ask
them, right. And so the reason Iwent into all that is because
when we want to know the healthof a stream, that is what goes
into it. We assess the habitat,are there trees, is the water
(05:53):
clean, we do water chemistrytesting. So that's habitat.
That's like testing air, I wassaying test the water quality.
And the last thing is the food.
So we'll check themacroinvertebrates, which are
the bugs that live in there,which is another food source of
some of the fish. Or you canjust catch the fish and see
who's there.
Jeff Aluotto (06:14):
So that and so that's what we're going to be
doing today is actually catchingthe fish, and using electric
current to catch the fish sothat you can assess how healthy
is the stream? What kind of guysare living in here, right?
Sarah Meadows (06:26):
Yeah, yeah. And so that's why the biological
testing, catching the fish is soimportant, because all of those
other things I've spent all thattime explaining is what goes
into determining what fishpopulation lives here. All of
those things have to be good tohave a good fish population. So
Jeff Aluotto (06:45):
the zoo, the type of fish that you wind up
catching the UC, can give you anunderstanding of all those other
things that you talked about howhealthy is you're not going to
get certain types of fish, ifthe chemical composition of the
stream might be really bad, orif certain types of plants
(07:05):
aren't there, you're not gonnasee fish. So this gives you a,
an indicator of the health ofthe stream through one sampling
mechanisms that
Sarah Meadows (07:14):
that's exactly right. And that's why this
biological or fish sampling isso valuable. I will also say
that it has taken me severalyears to get level three
certified, which is the highestcertification. That's the data
that EPA uses and everything.
And there are, I don't know, 20people in the state that are
level three certified. Sothere's no one in southwest Ohio
(07:35):
other than myself now that havethat certification, really. So
it's just a valuable resourcethat can be used for by many
groups to determine the healthof the store.
Jeff Aluotto (07:47):
Many people in the state of Ohio have that
certification getting would yousay, I don't know the
Sarah Meadows (07:50):
exact number, but it's like 20 or 30, somewhere in
there.
Jeff Aluotto (07:55):
But the point being is very few and Sarah
faring. We have this history atthe Soil and Water Conservation
District of just getting expertsin their field. Right. So this
is fantastic. So we're justthrilled to have you working for
Hamilton County. And again, thepurpose of this podcast is to
tell people the work we're doingbut also, if you're listening to
(08:16):
this to hey, I want to I want togo into a field where I can
protect the environment. Butgosh, can I really do that
working for the county? Yes, youcan. And Sarah is living proof
of that. So awesome. And well,before we get started might also
just be going to take a coupleof seconds and talking about
where we talked about we're onHoward's Creek, right, which is
a tributary of what is the
Sarah Meadows (08:41):
Great Miami
Jeff Aluotto (08:42):
Great Miami. Okay.
And we're out at a UC Universityof Cincinnati research facility.
Right. Let's just wanted to talka little bit about where we are
and the partnership that youguys have with with University
of Cincinnati.
Sarah Meadows (08:53):
Yeah, so this is the UC Center for Field Studies.
It is actually an old shakerhome that that house in the barn
that was on the property used tobe shaker property. And they
renovated it in partnership withgreat parks. So this is sort of
like a great parks, you seeproperty partnership. And they
(09:14):
use it as classrooms. And theyrecently also built the karf,
which is an archaeologicalresearch center. So they not
only do biological research,they do archaeological research
here. They have rain gardens,and prairies and all of those
other things that they use foreducational purposes out here as
(09:34):
well as the stream. They getstudents out here sometimes do
Jeff Aluotto (09:37):
awesome. Well, thanks to UC and great parks for
helping us with this today aswell. So all right, Bridget,
what do you what do you think?
Bridget Doherty (09:44):
You know, I'm kind of ready to get started.
I'm wondering, should we get toyour safety mechanisms of this
because you do kind of
Jeff Aluotto (09:51):
like not I'm more I think we should just get the
electricity out and shove it inthe water right now. Right? No,
probably probably a good point.
But you guys said Was the foodwhat do we need? What do we need
to know?
Sarah Meadows (10:04):
Yeah, so there are many different ways of
electrofishing. This is abackpack electric Fisher. That's
what we're going to be usingtoday. As you said, we look a
little bit like Ghostbusters.
For everyone that can't seewhat's going on. You can't elect
your fish from a boat, you canelect your fish from what's
called a tow barge, which is alittle bit like a sled that you
tow behind you with like agenerator and stuff. So that's a
(10:25):
little bit higher powered forlarger bodies of water. This is
a cute little stream, babblingin the woods. And so we can use
the smaller backpack electricfissure, it's perfectly
adequate, has a little bit lowervoltage and amperage that will
set it to so if you accidentallystick your hand in the water
while it's turned on, you'll geta little tingle, but it's not
(10:47):
going to it's not going to bedangerous. Mostly,
Jeff Aluotto (10:56):
I told you, my wife told me that the only rules
you have for me today was not tocome home electrocuted? Yeah, so
we could try to avoid that. So
Sarah Meadows (11:03):
let me talk about some of the parts of this. So
the way that it works is youhave an anode and a cathode a
positive and a negative. Andwhen you put them both in the
water, the water completes thecircuit between them. So it
doesn't alternate doesn't goboth ways. The current like most
of the currents in your housedo. It's a direct current, the
loop goes one direction. So youhave to have the anode and
(11:27):
cathode, the positive andnegative in the water at the
same time to complete thecircuit. And it goes always from
the anode, which is this polethat I'll be holding with the
metal ring on the end, andthere's a switch on it. You see
the switch is rubber and it'spermanently in the off position.
That way, if I were to trip andfall while I'm electrofishing it
(11:51):
and I let go of it, it'll openand turn off. That's one of the
safety features.
Jeff Aluotto (11:57):
Go lawnmower right? You know, yes? Got it.
Okay, yes, exactly
Sarah Meadows (12:00):
like that. So I have to hold it down in order to
turn the anode ring on. Theother part is what we call the
rat tail. And it is a sort oflike a metal wire that's
attached to the backpack thatdrags behind me in the water.
That's why we call it the rattail. And that's the cathode. So
that's the other end of theloop. So it'll go between this,
(12:22):
this ring that I can kind of putwherever I want to, and this rat
tail that drags behind me, andit goes back into the equipment
through this lithium battery,and back out the ring, and then
a loop through the water. Cool.
All right. So some other safetyfeatures, there's a big red
button on top, you just put itdown to turn it off. It has a
(12:45):
water detector near the bottomso that if I get deep in the
water or I fall and it gets wet,it'll automatically shut off. It
has a tilt detector. So if Ifall and I tilt forward or
backward too far, it'llautomatically turn off
Jeff Aluotto (13:06):
there are what types of what types of fish
would you expect to find in anelectro fishing sample that
would indicate a completelyhealthy string.
Sarah Meadows (13:23):
So there's actually a lot more that goes
into it. We we use, we capturethe capture the fish. And once
we capture our sample, we wantto get 100% of what we can over
a specified distance during aspecified amount of time. And
(13:45):
that will give us a good pictureof what's there. We collect
them, we weigh them and countthem because the number of each
species and the variation insize will also tell us something
you want a healthy population.
So you need adults that aremaking babies and you need
babies to be the nextgeneration. So you want a lot of
different sizes.
Jeff Aluotto (14:05):
So you're talking a lot about number size. Didn't
hear you mention as much abouttypes. Is that is it?
Is there anything orif you find certain types of
fish that would indicate maybe amore polluted stream versus
another type that would say,hey, if we have this type of
(14:30):
critter in here, the streamsgotta be pretty, pretty healthy.
Bridget Doherty (14:35):
Somewhere like an indicator species. Yeah,
Sarah Meadows (14:38):
yeah. So some species of fish are more
sensitive to pollution or theyhave a more specialized habitat
that they need. And other typesof fish are sort of
opportunists. So they can liveon scraps belly, whatever.
They're like garbage disposalslike a carp for eggs. sample.
(15:00):
And they're not as particularabout the amount of pollution
and more tolerant of it. Sosensitive and tolerant are kind
of the words we use fordifferent fish species. And
ideally, we get a variety ofthem. Just because they're
tolerant of pollution doesn'tmean that it's bad to get those,
you need those. Also, you needthe whole variety. So there's a
greater number of species aswhat we want not just specific,
(15:21):
sensitive species, you want allof them, I just have to plug
darters really quick. So dartersare my favorite group of fish.
They are the coral reef fish offreshwater streams, they are
blue, orange, green, brightcolored, striped and spotted.
Yes, they're beautiful. They arebeautiful little fishes. They
(15:43):
typically don't get more thantwo to four inches, depending on
the species as adults. Sothey're small. That's another
thing that I'll say. You don'talways want big fish. It's not a
fishing contests. You know, youwant the small species
Bridget Doherty (15:57):
to show how often do you do this?
Sarah Meadows (15:59):
Well, that depends. We are starting a
volunteer electro fishingprogram here this year, this
will be the first year thatwe're doing it. And we'll go out
a couple times a month tocollect data on some of the
sites that they have a decade'sworth of water chemistry,
volunteer data on already. Sowe'll be adding biological data
(16:20):
to that existing dataset, whichis really exciting. For the
first time, there's a couple ofdifferent things that we'll use
this data for, we'll use it forthe volunteer data to add to
that data we already have, likeI said, and we'll also use it
for some of our own purposes forstream monitoring and stream
(16:40):
improvement projects and to getgrants to fund these stream
improvement projects. And soit's kind of as a as needed
basis. You might need to do itbefore and after a project to
show that it was effective. Youknow, are there more species
here than there were before andwe can help out our partners as
well who might be wanting to getgrants, because like we said
(17:02):
before, there's not a lot ofpeople that can do this. So and
it's it's very valuable. It's Idon't know what the monetary
value is think if you hiresomeone to do it, it's several
$1,000 For one site,
Jeff Aluotto (17:14):
what's the overall purpose from a county wide
perspective in terms of doingthis?
Sarah Meadows (17:19):
So one of the values of us being able to do it
ourselves, aside from the EPA,and Midwest Biodiversity
Institute also does regularsampling across the state, they
have set sites that they usuallycome to on a five year cycle, to
just check in, they'll assessthose completely, not just fish
and determine how healthy it is.
But there might be sites thatwe'll need sooner than that, or
(17:43):
we don't can't pay someone to doit. Or it's a site that they're
not willing to sample that wecan just go out and get that
data on the sites that we needdata on that it doesn't already
exist.
Jeff Aluotto (17:57):
And so this equipment, Sarah, you were
telling us earlier, this wasactually funded through a grant,
right?
Sarah Meadows (18:05):
Yes, so we applied for a grant through the
ohio Environmental EducationFund, which is an EPA grant. And
the reason that we got aneducation fund grant to do
science, scientific datacollection, and by this
equipment, is because there's acouple of different audiences
that we want to reach. Sothere's a huge value, as we've
(18:26):
been talking about, in gettingthis data for ourselves and our
partners, but also, through thevolunteer program, engaging the
general public in a way thathasn't been done before, and
letting them see and assistfirsthand in doing this level
three, high quality datacollection. And we also plan on
doing some public worksworkshops, you know, they have
(18:49):
to get a lot of permits and obeya lot of regulations in their,
their work. So we plan to havesome opportunities for them to
come out and see some of thefish that live in the streams
that they probably didn'trealize live there like those
colorful darters Those are fun,charismatic one.
Jeff Aluotto (19:06):
And that's really cool that you're that you're
doing that because you have alot of people working in public
service, who whether they'reengineers or public works,
officials, like you said, Sarah,and, you know, they, they're
responsible for a very valuableaspect of developing this
county, right, but to make surethey understand the specifics of
(19:27):
here's the interaction betweenwhat you're doing, and the
health of the naturalenvironment is really important.
So it's really cool that you'rereaching out to those different
industry sectors as well as justthe the residents of the county
for volunteers. So that'sawesome. Yeah, we're looking
forward to it. And you can tellus here has done this multiple
times because she flipped thepole up with her foot, like like
(19:49):
my kid might do a soccer ball.
So, this is clearly we are weare in the hands of an expert
here. So to do this in in incommon areas, you do it in the
riffles. Or where's the best wayto do it?
Sarah Meadows (20:03):
All of the above.
Because remember, we want acomplete picture, we want all
the species, some species preferthe pools, some species prefer
the riffles. So we really wantthat complete picture. There's a
lot of specific ways that yousample, for example, we're gonna
walk downstream a little bit andwalk back towards you, you
always want to sample upstream.
And the main reason is that sowhen you're walking in the
(20:26):
creek, and you stir up all themud, it goes behind you. So you
can see what you're doing. Wealso have some polarized
sunglasses to help it see thefish better. And you kind of do
everything you can to sample,get a complete sample and get
all of the species that arerepresentative of this
(20:46):
particular Creek. You don't wantto miss anything like
Jeff Aluotto (20:49):
into the like, exactly call them but like where
the stream arose out, likebehind like trees and stuff, do
certain types of fish that mightlive back there, that
might be more.
Sarah Meadows (21:00):
So absolutely, just trying
Jeff Aluotto (21:02):
to get a good sample of all the different
areas.
Sarah Meadows (21:06):
Yeah, like there's a big log with some
sticks and leaves and stuffjammed up to it, we're probably
gonna stick it right under thereand see if there's anything
hiding in there. That's a greathabitat spot to get. And there's
some different samplingtechniques to get them out of
the riffles and all that stuff.
So what to see what we get
Jeff Aluotto (21:22):
great. Now my natural inclination would be to
walk right alongside of you andmess up everything you're doing.
So I'm assuming you want us tostay here while you guys do
this, right. I just don't wantto I don't want to mess anything
up here.
Sarah Meadows (21:33):
Yeah, yeah, that'd be fine. We're not gonna
go that far. Well, so here'sanother thing to think about.
See, we're standing right nextto a little riffle here. And
there's a pool right in front ofus. So we're gonna go down to
the bottom of the pool and workour way up towards this riffle.
And what's gonna happen is wewon't get much at first. But
soon as you get to the top ofthis pool up at this riffle.
(21:55):
It's like you're hurting thefish. You got to be prepared as
a netter. Which is you? Youknow, you can know mentally when
we get to the top of that pool.
That's when you're gonna like,be ready. Scoop, scoop, scoop,
scoop scoop. Yeah.
Jeff Aluotto (22:10):
Because right now, I see no fish, right. I mean, so
yeah, I'm imagine that isdeceiving.
Sarah Meadows (22:18):
That is what's so interesting about it. People
look and they say there'snothing in here. This little
riffle is what? I don't know,four inches deep in the deepest
spots here. There's fish inthere. You wouldn't think that's
darters love the riffles.
Jeff Aluotto (22:32):
We're gonna test you on this era. So here we go.
See what happens here.
Sarah Meadows (22:36):
Yeah. Now watch, I'll eat my words, we won't get
anything. It's even amazing howwell though big fish you can
hide. Like you don't seeanything, you might get a big
one turn it up, you don't know.
(22:59):
So let's see, just to describewhat's going on right now. I'm
holding the lever down, I got myring. I'm directing the ring
underneath of rocks along thebank, I'm kind of stirring out
the fish so that Sarah here canscoop them up and put them into
our bucket of water. And I willsay that we're not getting 100%
(23:20):
of the fish that we see.
Scooping is a lot harder thanyou would think. Here's a good
one little guy, but he'scolorful. They're actually drawn
to the electrical field. So whenthey're stung, they're drawn to
this ring that I have. And mostfish float because they have a
swim bladder. But the ones thatwe're catching here is mostly
(23:41):
darters. darters are the onlygroup of fish that do not have a
swim bladder, because they liketo sit on the bottom. And
they'll hide under rocks anddirt out and catch bugs. It's
why they're called darters. Theysit on the bottom kind of
positioned like like a seal upontheir fins. And they sink
because they don't have a swimbladder that makes them float.
(24:04):
Now we're getting to the top ofthe pool here so there's a
little bit more fishes. Yep.
Bridget Doherty (24:13):
Know fish were harmed during this taping. There
it is.
Sarah Meadows (24:17):
Yeah, so there's quite a few crayfish living in
this cool. We saw lots of thosehurdles, tadpoles, anything in
there will be impacted by it.
But just like the fish, theyusually just get stunned in some
way. So here if you want tohelp, I'm going to put this
bucket over here for you.
Jeff Aluotto (24:42):
Oh my gosh, yeah, look at that.
Sarah Meadows (24:44):
I have a little tank there. I'll put them in so
you guys can see them and I'llpoint out different species.
We've got some darters we'll getI'll pick out some colorful ones
for you to look at.
Jeff Aluotto (24:53):
So the little in this is similar to what you told
me when we first started. Thelittle fish that I saw They got
zapped, and then he was backupswimming around and like seven,
eight seconds. You got some bigguys in here. There's still a
Sarah Meadows (25:07):
little bit out of it. Yeah. They'll take longer to
recover.
Jeff Aluotto (25:11):
That's what you said earlier you said the bigger
guys are kind of more sensitiveto this.
Sarah Meadows (25:15):
Right? Yeah, it's all about surface area, they
have a bigger surface areabecause their body is bigger, so
they conduct more currentthrough them. I
Jeff Aluotto (25:23):
would never have guessed that I would have
thought the little guys wouldhave been affected more. But
that's really interesting.
Bridget Doherty (25:28):
Is that a? Is that a normal sample for you?
Know, Oh, do you do much more?
Sarah Meadows (25:33):
We do 200 meters.
Bridget Doherty (25:35):
Okay. Probably only did how many meters would
you say? So you could really beout here a nice half day. Hold
all day.
Sarah Meadows (25:45):
Yeah, you have 3600 seconds to do 200 meters.
It's very specific. So you havean hour to to fish, that does
not include setup, getting yourequipment down. And then this
next part actually sometimestakes the longest depending on
how many you get.
Jeff Aluotto (26:03):
Is there a difference between doing this in
the winter versus the summer?
Sarah Meadows (26:06):
Fish behave differently in different times
of the year? Because it's coldand they're slower and kind of
hunker down, and there's lessfood? So they're not trying to
use up energy? Yeah, yeah,there's, it's really important
to select a good site that willbe representative of the
waterway that you're sampling.
So by waterway, I mean, all ofHoward's Creek. If we're going
(26:27):
to take one 200 meter sample onHoward's Creek, you better make
sure that that represents allthe habitats that are on all of
Howard's Creek. So you have toreally select a good spot.
Bridget Doherty (26:40):
I get questions about Sarah, what did you study
in school? Like, how did you getto this point?
Sarah Meadows (26:47):
Well, I'm gonna get some fish out for you while
we're talking. Perfect. That'sokay. So I have a biology degree
and a chemistry minor. Andoriginally since about fifth
grade. I said I'm going to studymarine biology. So I took all
the like ecology type coursesand stuff in my biology degree.
(27:12):
I did a study abroad and marinebiology and learned all the
those research techniques andeverything. The Galapagos
Islands. Wow. So I lived therefor five months and did did all
kinds of stuff. So that waspretty cool. So what was I
saying? Oh, marine biology sowell, I ended up marrying this
(27:33):
is a Hamilton County podcast,right? Yes. I ended up marrying
a West sider so I'm stuck here.
No, Cincinnati has to know whatthat means.
Bridget Doherty (27:41):
As a West sider. Yes. Hailing from
shivian. Yes, I totallyunderstand that.
Sarah Meadows (27:47):
So I redirected
Jeff Aluotto (27:49):
our new our listening audience goes well,
beyond him will be able tocounty, roughly 400 square miles
and just socially, historically,always. Divided east side, west
side. Correct. So we now knowthat
Bridget Doherty (28:11):
what high school did your husband go to
Colerain. Or you go up there, Igotta say in watching all of
this, it seems like you reallyenjoy your job
Sarah Meadows (28:19):
I do. I will tell you a little bit more about my
background. Well, actually, bothmy parents worked for great
parks growing up. So I kind ofgrew up in and around nature,
it's close to my heart. And incollege, I got a college job as
an environmental educator, do anaturalist kind of stuff
(28:39):
outdoors. And I really lovedteaching people about the
environment and showing theminteresting things that they
might not have expected to seein it so they can learn about it
and foster the love of their ownof nature. And this job, I get
to kind of do both things. I getto teach people about nature and
collect the data, and I get toget people out doing it with me.
(29:02):
And so I think that's reallycool. So I'm picking out some
different species here, pickingthem out of our bucket. And so
what are we seeing the most ofhere? I haven't looked at all of
them yet a lot of shiners. So,there's different groups of
fish. There's sunfish likebluegill. There's starters which
we've talked about, there'sshiners, which are the little
(29:22):
kind of minnow fish. And it'sgood to have representation from
all the different groups.
predators like bass are good tohave. We've got Creek Chubs are
a minnow there's some blacknosedace is another minnow there's a
darter here. This is called afan tail darter. There's so
right now it's springtime. Andso the males are looking real
(29:45):
pretty. The males are the prettyones sort of like in birds. In
this the species that aredimorphic that have different
males and females. The males arevery pretty. This is a blunt
nose minnow, so He's got thesetubercles on his nose. That
means he's handsome. Really?
That's his breeding tubercleshe's very bright colored striped
(30:08):
down the sides very bold. He's ahandsome guy.
Bridget Doherty (30:12):
I would have never thought that there would
be this many fish in a creek,just in a small creek. Yeah.
Jeff Aluotto (30:19):
And you mentioned you mentioned bass. Do you pull
bass out of the creek this size?
Like I mean, obviously smaller.
But
Sarah Meadows (30:25):
yeah. Hanging out in the pool. Sometimes.
Sometimes it's just a good placefor the young to grow up safer
before they get bigger and goout. Let me show you this
starter.
Jeff Aluotto (30:35):
These are the guys you were talking about the kind
of suit at the bottom on theiron their fins. And
Sarah Meadows (30:39):
yeah, yeah. And this guy is a nice colorful one.
You guys can see all the orangeand blue stripes like a parrot
or something. Yeah. Hey, he'sback. Yeah, he's flopping
around, buddy. He's got thestripes on his dorsal fin there
and all of his fins. Really?
Jeff Aluotto (30:54):
Yeah. You never really see them up this close to
realize how colorful they are. Imean, it does almost look like a
tropical fish.
Sarah Meadows (31:00):
When I put them in the tank. Do you see he
immediately went to the bottom?
He's down there. This guy's gota nice orange colored tail.
That's his breeding colors tothat might be Oh, Sam shiner
soon shiner to be a sand shiner.
Yeah, so get your hands wet.
Yeah, thank you. Because fishactually the reason that fish
feel slimy, if anyone evertouched a fish, when you're
(31:22):
fishing with your grandpa, whenyou're little or whatever,
that's actually a coating, likea sort of a mucous coating on
them that protects them fromgetting infections and getting
sick. Oh my gosh, he's reallycool. His dorsal fin is the
makes him distinct from all theother darters. He's got a short,
spiky dorsal fin, you see hisfront dorsal fin, it's much
(31:43):
shorter than that. And it's likespiky, we have to look at every
single one Id every single one,sort them, weigh them, count
them. And it takes a while. Sothat's why this part actually
sometimes takes longer thandoing the sampling. What would
you
Bridget Doherty (32:01):
like people to know about your job and how
important it is?
Sarah Meadows (32:07):
Well, like I said at the beginning, the biology is
just part of the picture. Butit's an important part, because
you can go see how your aunt anduncle and their niece and nephew
are doing assessing all thisother stuff. Or you can just go
ask them.
Jeff Aluotto (32:21):
So how will we use this? What's the next step in
terms of using this data? Wedon't collect the data just to
collect it. But what are we?
What are we using it for?
Sarah Meadows (32:32):
So after you look at every single fish that you
catch you IDM you sort them andweigh them and write it all
down, you take that back, andyou calculate what you call and
IBI score, which is an index ofby biological integrity, which
takes into account the varietyof sizes of a species, the
(32:52):
number of species, the varietyof families of fish. So it takes
into account all the things thatyou could to get a numerical
score, there is a database, EPAand MBI, which is Midwest
Biodiversity Institute, they doregular sampling on those five
year cycles. It's publiclyavailable that EPA just did and
(33:16):
last year, they did anassessment with MBI and
Cincinnati MSD on the Mill Creekin Hamilton County. And so in
December, they did apresentation on all that
information on are those sitesstill attaining the status that
they should? Or they still warmwater or whatever they're
supposed to be? If not, what dowe need to do to get them back
(33:37):
to what they're supposed to be?
Bridget Doherty (33:39):
And I think that'd be really helpful for
residents of the county to justkind of wonder, okay, there's a
creek in the back of my house inyou know, green Township, you
know, what's the health of thatcreek?
Sarah Meadows (33:51):
Right? Yeah, that's that's all publicly
available information.
Jeff Aluotto (33:57):
All right. Well, you know, we've been out here
now for probably better courseof an hour now. I'm just we
could probably continue watchingSarah. She's going to continue
to pull up fish out of thisbucket for about the next two
hours. Unfortunately, on heartand hustle in Hamilton County,
our time is a little bit morelimited. But this has been
(34:20):
absolutely fascinating. I thinkwe provided a window into the
environment in Hamilton Countythat we just simply didn't know
about, both from a naturalperspective but also into career
opportunities and professionsthat go on within Hamilton
County government that I amgoing to wager most people would
probably not know that they hadthe opportunity to pursue if
(34:45):
they're interested in scienceand in the environment, etc. So
Sarah and Sarah really want tothank you for your time out here
today. This has been incrediblyilluminating, Bridget any
Bridget Doherty (35:00):
No, I just think what you do is, is kind of
fun. And I just think, you know,like having having to be able to
do this as a profession is isawesome. So I really thank you
and I thank you for keepingtrack of all of our great
streams in this county, it neverceases to amaze me how different
this county is from like oururban core to being out here in
(35:23):
Whitewater Township, CrosbyTownship, and how beautiful it
is, to thank you for what youdo.
Sarah Meadows (35:29):
And anyone that's really interested, I will say
this is the first year we'regetting our volunteer program up
and running. So we probablydon't have extra spots for that.
But in future, we're hoping tohave some, like demos and
workshops. So anyone that's justinterested in what this is, look
out for those events, we'll justhave people out to see what it
(35:49):
is. So it's all about
Jeff Aluotto (35:50):
figuring out a way we'll we'll definitely advertise
for that, and amplify that onyour behalf. And then also just
Sarah, just thanks to all of theemployees for the Soil and Water
Conservation District foreverything they do every day to
help with the environment,whether it's on the soil side of
things, or stream health, likewe're talking about here or on
(36:12):
the environmental educationfront as well. So thanks
everything you guys do,
Bridget Doherty (36:15):
I will say one plug for soil and water is they
have great social media. So tofollow soil and water to find
out about those volunteeropportunities, and just all the
really cool things that they'redoing for our environment. All
right, great. Sounds good.
Thanks, guys. Thank you so much.
We really appreciate it. We'llsee you back in the studio.
Jeff Aluotto (36:33):
Excellent. We'll be back shortly.
Sarah Meadows (36:35):
Thanks for coming out with us.
Jeff Aluotto (36:42):
All right, we're back inside. I've got the mud
boots off. And we're back at ourstudio here. Bridget, you have
to it that had to been one ofour most epic episodes of all
time. It
Bridget Doherty (36:54):
was so cool that now I want to go out to
planning and developments, firehydrant crew and go and test
fire hydrants throughout thecounty. I feel like we got we're
onto something. We got to keepit on the road.
Jeff Aluotto (37:05):
I think you're right. We have to do that. And I
love the idea of fire hydrants.
I think we also need to get outseason building inspectors in
the field really bring to peoplewho are regular listeners, the
work. All employees of HamiltonCounty, not just those that are
in an office, but people thatare out serving the community
actually in the community, Ithink it'd be fantastic. But
(37:26):
before we go, Bridgette, wouldyou agree with me that this
episode was in fact our mostshocking episode of all time?
All right,
Bridget Doherty (37:42):
there you go. I found that button. There we go.
Jeff Aluotto (37:46):
So, for all of you, who've listened to this
episode, I want to thank all ofyou for listening to heart and
hustle in Hamilton County was apleasure to be out with Sarah's
out on the west side, talkingabout the natural environment.
And we'll be back with youshortly to talk about some more
valuable public services thatcounty government brings to to
(38:09):
the community. So on behalf ofmy co host Berger Doherty please
check us out on Apple podcast,Spotify and other providers. And
as always, you can find thispodcast on Hamilton County
ohio.gov on the countyadministrator's page. I'm Jeff
Alito. We'll see you next time.
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