Exploring the Art of Engaging Herbal Education

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
times in it.
Hi, this is Demetra Clark, thedirector of Heart of Herbs
Herbal School and Heart of HerbsHerb School podcast.
So, anyways, today we aretalking to Jim McDonald and I'm
really excited because I haven'thad her.
I don't think we've ever spokenbefore.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
I do not think that we have.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
And I don't think our paths have ever crossed, so I'm
really excited about this.
So thank you for being heretoday.
Tell us where we can find youand all that fun stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Well, to start with, I think the way that our paths
have crossed that you don't knowis I heard a podcast with you
that Masonason did um and um.
You were on a podcast withbevin cohen, who's also here
from michigan.
Um cross paths with and bevinis like so super love him he's
awesome.
He is such a really cooldown-to-earth practical guy.

(00:58):
Um, and yeah, I so.
Um, I've listened to you talk,uh, before but yeah, I I don't
think we've looked at each otherbefore, right.
So my name is Jim McDonald.
I teach in Southeast Michiganand also sort of wherever people
can get me to come out to if Ican make it work.

(01:19):
So that's been in differentparts of the country, a few
different parts of the world,which is kind of cool.
I feel like I need like onemore time before I can sound
like international teacher.
But yeah, so I teach arounddifferent places if I can make
it work.
I have an in-person course thatI do and an online course that I
do called Lindera just Lindera,because when I was trying to

(01:41):
think of names, I wantedsomething that people wouldn't
shorten down to you know likeanyway, and I just I basically
I'm here because back in like Ithink it was like 94, I got into
into herbs and I just neverstopped being interested in it.
And when you get into somethingand you never stop doing it,

(02:03):
provided you keep kind ofpushing your edges, you sort of
get deeper into it and a littlebit more skilled at it.
So I think that that's happenedand I have a lot of mason jars,
cool Lots of jars and bottlesAccumulated over the decade.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
So like 1994.
How old are you?

Speaker 2 (02:20):
I'm 52.
I just turned 52.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Okay, so you're the same age as my husband Okay,
cool, okay, okay, okay.
So I was just trying to think,like where I was in 94 in
reference to my herbal Kindlejourney, and I was in New York,
so that's cool.
So you teach, people invite youto teach all over the place,

(02:47):
and today I really want you toshare with us some of the things
that you like the most aboutteaching and some of the things
that are challenging, because Ifeel like herbal education is
changing really quickly rightnow.
I remember when I so when Istarted heart of herbs in 1998

(03:07):
and my first little like littleum geo cities herb school page
that is so awesome right, I mean, it was like.
It was like um, I mean, my firstherbal business was in 96,
online, right, I was an earlyadopter to this technology, but
everyone was like this willnever work.

(03:28):
What is wrong with you?
And I was like I'm going to doit because I'm broke and I have
to feed my kid and you know allthis kind of stuff, right?
And then we're seeing, I think,that change again and shift
again and everyone's going toeverything's on video.
And I am not a video person.
I am very shy and like thispodcast is actually my way of

(03:51):
trying to make myself grow thefuck up.
Grow up and and and and not besuch a baby about stuff like
that, cause I'm actually reallyshy in real life, and so this is
like something I've beenworking on, the one-on-one
aspect, but that's another shiftin teaching, and so it's just
like.
It's just this, like amazing tome that everything is changing

(04:13):
so quickly, but staying the sameso quickly too.
What are your views on that?

Speaker 2 (04:18):
I started teaching because so much of my teaching
origins are like this.
I started teaching because Ikind of got nagged into it.
I was going to a place I wasreally interested in herbs.
You know, I got into it when Iwas in college.
A friend left a book out and Ijust started making stuff.
And again, I never stoppedmaking stuff and so I have lots

(04:38):
of things now and I spent abunch of time where there was a
bonfire and barefoot people andI realized that there were there
, people drumming in thegrateful bed.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Oh yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
So there's just, there is a subset of people who
don't automatically, whenthey're around a bonfire and
they're not wearing shoes, lookdown to see where they're
putting their feet Right, and so, like people would step on
embers and be like, ah, and if Iwas there I'd be like, oh, hang
on, I'd go and find somethingand be like, you know, crush

(05:12):
this up and put it on there.
You know, chew it up and put iton there.
And after a while of doing that, someone was like, oh, you
don't actually grab the samething, that's not the same thing
you grabbed last time.
I was like, oh well, thatthing's not growing anymore,
it's like later in the year.
So, and also, I want to trydifferent stuff out.

(05:32):
And that place also, you know,hosted classes and workshops and
said like, oh, you should teachsomething here.
And I'm like I don't knowanything about teaching, like I
got nothing to, like I don't.
You know, I don't even know howI would do that.
They kept asking and asking,and asking and asking.
I'm fine, Okay, I'll do it.
And so the first class I endedup doing was like a seven hour
herb walk.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Um holy moly.
Yeah, yeah, um actually gettheir money's worth $25.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
I think 20, $20.
If you were a member, we gaveyou food, you got a tincture.
It was a really great deal forstudents and a really bad deal
for me.
I don't know, I was learning,it was okay, so I did that
spring, summer, fall and then Iwas like, oh, this is kind of
fun, like, actually, I like thisand people are asking me
questions and I think that atthe time and this would have

(06:18):
been like the late 90s how itworked for me is like there were
a lot more people who would askme questions and try out what
my suggestions were than I hadpreviously known.
And so I was like, oh, this isa way to get more experience
doing stuff.
Right, you know, it's not justlike me and my wife and a few

(06:39):
friends that will make the teasthat I'm making.
That tastes weird.
Um, and after I taught, um, youknow, sort of like these long
day classes for a bunch of years, the students who were coming
to them they're like would youdo like a longer course?
And I was like I don't know howI would put that together and
everything.
And eventually enough peopleasked me and I started doing
that and again, you know Istarted doing it and like I just

(07:04):
kept doing it and as time wenton, you know I started doing it
and like I just kept doing itand as time went on, you know I
sort of like expanded it andlike I would teach it and I
would get ideas, and like Ican't fit that in, there's not
enough hours, and so I made itbigger and kind of like grew it
out to what it is now.
So I have a course that runsapril through october.
Um, there's eight weekends of,you know, seven hour days, um,

(07:24):
and doing that and when.
And I have a comment to makeabout on this next thing, but
like we just started before thepandemic took off and shut
everything you know down.
Like that december we did, Ithink, our first like I did a
class in person and then I welive streamed it so people could
tune in online, and then we hadthe recordings of that class
which we started selling.

(07:45):
And then then the pandemichappened and, like everyone else
, I was like what am I going todo to make money?
Like, how will I pay my bills?
Like, oh, we'll have to like,or, and also I have a course
that's starting, you know, in amonth, and you know how am I
going to make this happen whenwe're not allowed to get
together?
The students were awesome, youknow, no one really dropped out

(08:05):
of that year in 2020.
And they were all like, okay,we'll do stuff online.
And I think we did the firstthree weekends, or two weekends,
you know, online, and then,when we can meet outside, we
just did the entire courseoutside.
And then the year after that Isaid like my wife really was
like, well, we should just dolike an online version for

(08:25):
people that can't come out.
So now there's like an onlineversion and then it's an
in-person version.
They're basically the samecourse, a little bit different
because of the structures.
But I want to go back to whatyou said is that I just remember
?
I mean, like all the way, noteven the 90s, but all the way up
to 2020, when the pandemic hurt, there were a lot of people
saying things like you can'tteach online, that doesn't

(08:48):
really count, or you can't seeclients online.
That's like you're not a realherbalist If you're only, you
know, talking to people on thephone, zoom or Skype.
And I'm I'm so glad that thathas ended, because I was, like
you know cause.
One of the things I was reallyactive from the late nineties

(09:08):
through probably now, before itwas called social media, they
were like these email listservs,right.
So like.
American herbalist guild had aYahoo group before that.
Henriette Kress um, right right,she had a very active email
list and I w I was always veryactive on that and people used
to say, um, oh yeah, jimMcDonald's one of those internet

(09:29):
herbalists.
And I was like I do not thinkyou're saying that in a way that
is like complimentary, likethere was a little bit of a dig
in there, or maybe in some caseslike a really blatant dig.
Like that.
That kind of work doesn't countand I think it's interesting
now that everyone's doing thatright oh yeah, no, I got all the
.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
I got emails from people like actually like big
verbal people telling me I wasgross and disgusting because our
classes were online and Iwasn't.
I didn't have classes onlinebecause I thought like, oh, this
is the wave of the future, I'mso forward thinking.
That was where my audience were.
That was where the people whowanted to take my classes were.

(10:11):
They were military spouses orthey were moms with kids.
That's where my audience was,and so they wanted me to be
there.
So that's why I went there,because I don't think of myself
as being like any kind of tech,whatever, right, I mean it's,
I'm not, and so like it isinteresting how that's changed.

(10:35):
And sometimes I just want to belike, hey, 20 years over here
I've been.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
Don't tell me how the wheel works, but it is and I
think that, like what you weresaying, like being receptive to
the needs of the students,that's what's in.
Like that's of predominantimportance of um, like like, if,

(11:03):
if you're going to teach,certainly there is a like, how
can I teach best what works forme?
Because, um, people can'treally teach in ways that don't
work for them.
Like I don't do PowerPointsbecause I am really bad at them.
I did one um one time ever andI was like oh, you know, people

(11:25):
say that PowerPoints help keepyou on track, but part of my
thing is, like I'm not really ontrack, like I have an idea and
I talk about that idea when Iget to the end of that concept
or idea, rather than thinkinglike this is the next thing that
happens, which I do sometimes alot of things I think like, oh,
I can go, you know, here, hereor here.
From this end point, which waydo I want to go today?

(11:47):
And a part of why I do that isbecause I don't want to get
bored.
You know I teach a lot of thesame material.
You know, like, the number oftimes I've talked about like
dandelion on an herb walk islike it's a lot, you know.
Oh, I imagine, right, hundredsor thousands, thousands and so
like.
Sometimes I start with theflowers, sometimes I start with

(12:08):
the roots, I'm gonna start withthe leaves, I might go into like
one or another stuff, but Idon't want to get it to be like
where I feel like I'm reciting.
And especially, I've seen someteachers you know who and I feel
like, oh, they do not seem likethey love what they're teaching
anymore.
You know know, it's kind oflike rewind tape, press play,
and I don't want that to happento me and that's not.
This kind of seems like ajudgment.

(12:31):
It's not really a judgment.
It's something that I knowhappens, and so I'm trying to
actively not do that.
So I want to think about likewell, you know, what can I do,
what works for me?
But then, equally important islike how do I figure out what

(12:51):
the students want to learn andwhat I think that they should
learn?
Right, because those are oftentwo different things.
And how do I help them learnwhat they want to learn in a way
that I think is maybe moreeffective than they know exists?
So, most people when they learnabout herbs and this is how I
learned about herbs they thinkyou know, in one of two

(13:15):
directions.
Usually the first direction isI found this herb, what problems
is it good for?
Or the other direction is Ihave this problem, what herbs
are good for this problem?
And I mean that makes all thesense in the world.
But where I think of is thatthe whole idea of holistic
medicine and herbalism that'spracticed holistically is that

(13:37):
we're not.
We are doing what everyone says, where we're looking at the
person and saying like, oh, Idon't want to just treat a cough
, I want treat your cough youknow.
So if someone yeah, were to sendme an email that says what I do
for a cough, I'd be like noidea, because I don't know what
kind of cough you have yeah andthen I can say, like, is your
cough drier, is it damper, is itmore spasmodic?

(13:58):
you know that can be like astarting place that most people
can answer that question andthen explain, you know, um, like
why that matters and that fordrier coughs we use demulcent
herbs that are more moisteningand for damper costs we tend to
use more aromatic herbs that aremore drying and for spasmodic
costs we use relaxant herbs.

(14:19):
You know, um, and as as long asI don't overcomplicate that,
most people will get it, becausemost people have been in a
house where everyone was sickwith the same thing and they all
have it a little bitdifferently.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
And so for me, it's like the idea of herbal actions
and herbal energetics, which Ithink you know actions are here
and energetics are here and theysort of like fit together like
that.
Actions are here and energeticsare here and they sort of like
fit together.
Like that, um, I can explainthat in a way that's not super
complicated.
That makes people be like Idon't get it, this is over my
head.
Um, by being silly and tellingstories and having weird props

(14:56):
like donuts or pool noodles orscissors or whatever you know,
uh, and then they, they get thatsort of like more nuanced
understanding is a is abeginning place, rather than
learning the this for thatherbalism and then studying
herbalism longer and realizinglike, oh wait, that doesn't work

(15:19):
.
And then now I need to go backand back and I think I'm gonna
like paraphrase you I don'tthink I can quote you I think I
think on one of the podcasts andand pretty sure it was bevans
you said something about like,um, making, making like a tower
with your kids and if, like, ifthe foundation isn't good, the

(15:40):
tower falls over.
And because I love it, yeah,that's our, I love analogies to
this day.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Both of them are first responders and they use
that principle on every like,rescue or because they do all
different kinds of they're.
I told you they're wild andcrazy, but they they actually
like.
It's got to have a strong base,good foundation.
Without the foundation,everything crumbles blah, blah,
blah.
And my youngest son used thoseprinciples, became, I think, the

(16:11):
youngest captain in the firedepartment in North Carolina
ever.
Using that kind of stuff, beingan unschooled kid, so it's just
kind of like you know it's sotrue in everything.
Sorry, honey, I told all yourbusiness.
I know it's kind of like.
You know it's so true ineverything.
Sorry honey, I told all yourbusiness.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
I know, when I hear like, a really like, just a
great analogy that takes an idea, that makes something be like,
really relatable.
Because if you talk about likeoh, it's so important to have
this foundational knowledge, youknow, to support the structures
that you build on top of it.
That makes sense to a lot ofpeople.
But everyone has built a toweror played Jenga or you know done

(16:52):
something like that.
And when they have that um,that sort of like visual you
know of like, oh, oh, I knowwhat that means.
Like you know, I've hadeverything fall down because you
know the the foundation wasn'tstrong, you know.
Or I tried to stack up boxesand I put heavy boxes on top of
boxes that weren't really fulland the box collapsed and

(17:14):
everything fell down.
As soon as we have something sorelatable like that, that
analogy and that experiencebecomes the like, the anchor for
the concept yeah and so much ofwhat I'm doing when I'm
teaching is trying to like thinkwhat is the most relatable

(17:36):
anchor for a concept, and and Ithink you know, and there are
people who really want to knowall the names of the everything
and all the different tissuesand have to spell all the words
to everyone and like that.
But I really think, even thoughI can spell at least a lot of

(17:56):
the words, there's a few thatI've never quite gotten.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
I can't pronounce some of them, no matter how hard
I try.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Same.
Thing.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
I'm like.
My students think I'm an idiot.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Like whatever, I'm human I really like the gist of
like do you get the gist of itlike do you understand the
concept of it?

Speaker 1 (18:14):
yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
I know that there have been things that I could
say all the words.
I had memorized them, right, Ilearned how to spell them.
I could say all the words.
I had memorized them, right, Ihad learned how to spell them.
I could say all the words.
But if someone were to be like,explain that in a completely
different way than what you justsaid, I'd be like and there are
other things where, like, I getthe gist of it and I can say it

(18:40):
in a you know, using severaldifferent ways of talking.
But if someone said, like, canyou say all the appropriate
advanced level, you know medicaland pathophysiological
terminology?
I'd be like I don't think thatI can.
You know, I work with a lot offevers, you know, and pediatric
fevers I have a lot ofexperience with, and I know that

(19:00):
there's, like these stages offever.
You know this stage and thisstage and this stage.
I could not tell them to youright now, because my stages of
fever is like, imagine you're ina house and you have some
unwanted house ghosts and you'relike how can I get rid of them?
Maybe I'll just turn thethermostat way up and otherwise

(19:22):
the heat will just blow out ofthe house and it'll like stress
out the furnace from running andrunning and running and the
house won't get hot.
So I got to like turn on theheat and close the windows and
then when they um, if, if, whenthey're starting to get like
exhausted and wanting to leavebut they think maybe I'll stick
it out and stay, um, I'm alsogetting, I might just crack the
window a little bit and thenclose it and let some heat out.

(19:44):
Crack the window and close it,so like I can do that.
Or I can talk about being in acar in michigan in the winter
when you know you have the, theheat up.
Cars are changing nowadays andyou just have a, you just put
the number on oh yeah I justfound out.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
My steering wheel has heat I didn't know that I've
owned it for a year and a half.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
I was recently in a car that had like a massaging
seat and I was like you've gotto be kidding me.
I'll probably have one of thosein like 12 years.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
I would never get one because I'd go to sleep.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Yeah.
So I'm always trying to, youknow, I'm always trying to
figure out, like, the gist of it.
I think that, not in everysingle case ever, but in a lot
of cases like, understanding thegist of it like is more
important than being able to sayall the words and pronounce
them properly and spell themproperly.
You know, like, if youunderstand it and you understand

(20:38):
how it works, you know it'sokay and and maybe we can, we
can go back because we have thebond of like.
You know our kids areunschooled.
You know they largely figuredout how to do all the stuff
themselves and they came up withdifferent ways of learning than
what conventional ways oflearning are.

(20:58):
And you know, my, my kid, who'sin college right now, is like
rocking it.
You know he's doing really,really well in college and it's
not because he learned the waythat you're supposed to, like he
learned.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
He learned how to learn.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, he learned how to learn, he learned a way to
learn that worked best for him,and now he's, you know, able to
apply that to differentsituations, different situations
.
And so, um, if, if I'm in aclass and I'm trying to convey a
concept, often what I'm doingis I'm like okay, there's the
visual people, the visuallearners, there's the story

(21:34):
learners and there's the give methe nuts and bolts of the
concepts learners, and so Imight run through something and
like give the.
Okay, so this isphysiologically like, this is
the thing that's happening.
And then, um, have some sillyprop, like, uh, you know, um,
what do I have right now?
I've got different things, likea lufa sponge or you know way

(22:00):
more exciting stuff on your deskthan I do oh yeah, you know,
like, like.
So I like you know this is apiece of leather that is
properly, it has the rightamount of moisture and so, like,
it's flexible, you can squishit up and stretch it out and it
mostly goes back to shape.
This is the piece of leatherthat is really like dry, and so

(22:20):
I bent it once and now you knowit's got stiffness to it, so it
doesn't really work.
It doesn't want to stretch verymuch and if I stretch it you'll
see those little tears on thesurface of it.
So people see something andthen I can tell a story about,
like, a client that hadsomething going on.
And those three things worktogether for different types of

(22:43):
learners all at the same time,rather than being like, oh I'm
only going to tell a story orI'm only going to use some kind
of prop, or I'm only going togive the pathophysiology of it,
and it hits most people.
Well, it covers most styles oflearning.
So it's a good way I get to seewhen I'm doing it especially if

(23:04):
I can do it in person wherethere's a class I can see
people's reactions to like theway of explaining that works for
them, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Pretty good and I would say it's like so for me.
Um, when, when we switched todoing the online classes and the
first time that we did it, wejust did a class where there
were people there and then wehad the recording of that class
that people who weren't therewere able to watch and then
watch afterwards.
And then when we wanted torecord all the rest of the

(23:37):
modules for the course, we justbasically did it where I'm
sitting in this chair with thiswall behind me and there was not
people around.
That was so hard for me to like.
It's different, yeah To saylike there were two things.
One is I talk in an endless runon sentence.
You know that if you wrote itout, it would be really long.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Some of my lecture transcripts look like that it
would be really long.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Some of my lecture transcripts look like that and
then if I messed up, we'd belike, okay, where can you pick
up from?
And I was like, oh, like 10minutes ago maybe.
But the other thing is I am soused to from so many in-person
classes and having people there,I'm so used to like saying
something and then like scopingthe room out to be like did that
land?

Speaker 1 (24:24):
yeah, and when the?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
only person was in the room was my wife, who you
know we worked together and youknow she was doing the techie
stuff in the filming.
Even though she's in the room,if she's making a face, it's not
usually about anything that Isaid, it's about some light, you
know, some meter moving.
I I'm just like, ah, it'sinteresting, the um, the

(24:45):
different ways of teaching wehave.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
oh sorry we have in the beginning of our program.
I explain that sometimes it mayfeel like I'm saying it over
and over again, and I'm notactually saying it over and over
again for you.
I'm saying it over and overagain for everybody's different
way of learning.
So, yes, I may have like aworksheet, or may have a lecture

(25:09):
, I may have the writtenmaterial, we may have a
slideshow, we may have awhatever right.
And that's because what I'mtrying to do is to work with
differing types of learning andabilities.
And then occasionally, you know,at the end of the course, I'll
be like do you have any comments?
They're like a few things yousaid a few too many times.
I'm like okay, but you got it.

(25:29):
So we're good.
You know, because it's like,because you, just as we learn
about how people are changingthe way that learning happens,
people are becoming aware likeI'm a visual learner, I'm this,
I'm that, that it's.
It's helpful, I think, to justkind of try to preemptively get
in front of it.
But I always feel like, um,there's always one more way I

(25:52):
could do.
So you ever feel like there'sone more way I could present it
or one more type of presentationI can do.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
I, I, I, so agree, um , I, I.
Usually one of the ways that Ipreempt things is if I know
people are going to say thatbecause I repeat things like
crazy, like about magnesium andhow important magnesium is, you
know, I think like, maybesomewhere during the class I'm
like today's class is brought toyou by magnesium or demulsions,

(26:23):
um, or demulsions, um.
But I let people know it's like, because it's usually not like
repetitive, because I thinkpeople think like, oh, they said
the same thing and I'm like, no, I, I, I address the same
concept over and over and overand over again, but I did not
say it in the same way.
So, like, maybe, if there's acertain, you know, like plant
that we're talking about, um, itgets talked about when I'm

(26:45):
doing like, the big pictureoverview of how to understand
the concept of energetics andherbal actions and how they
overlap, and I might use that asan example.
And then later on in the course,we're doing a field walk and we
see that plant and I talk aboutthat plant and I talk about
some of the stuff I talked aboutwhen we were illustrating as an
example.
And then if the plant is likemullein, um, we talk about it

(27:10):
related to the respiratorysystem, we talk about related to
the musculoskeletal system.
We talk about it related toinfections, maybe in your ear.
We talk about it in relation tourinary issues, you know, and
strengthening the bladder andhelping with incontinence, and
so all of those things get sortof like readdressed, but they
get readdressed from slightlydifferent angles and I think

(27:31):
that that's good, because theidea of I think it's important,
it's essential there's one timethat I'm going to say this thing
and if you miss it it's gone.
Yeah, like that doesn't happenand I don't think that that's
good teaching.
You know one of the things um,I have had some people you know

(27:51):
they'll be like maybe part wayinto the class and they'll be
like I don't feel like I have.
Can you know, like assesssomeone's constitution and the
energetic states of all of theirdifferent organs and systems
and then know which herbalactions I should use and create
a formula that is perfectlybalanced for them?
And I was like I don't know ifI can do that all the time.

(28:12):
This is like getting better atthat is the goal, and one of the
ideas that I have is like Ilove the word wonder, and I love
the word wonder because it'sthat's how I learn.
Like that's the predominant waythat I learn.

(28:34):
Is I make time to sit down orlay down or walk around and just
wonder open-endedly about stuff, rather than being with a goal,
to like I want to learn aboutthis and then know the answer to
it, so that I know it and I'mdone and I can move on to the
next thing.
I tend more often to be like I'mgoing to keep wondering about

(28:55):
this issue and see all thedifferent ways that I can grow
my understanding of it withoutthere being an end point of like
knowing the thing.
Because when people not alwaysand there's certainly things
that I, you know, I'm not goingto say that there's not stuff
that I don't know, you know, Iknow that mucilage is a compound

(29:16):
, that, um, it is one of theways that things can be
demulcent if they have a lot ofit, um, but the problem with
knowing stuff is that it can bean end point for for people,
they'll be like, oh, I learnedthis and now I know it.
And then, at a certain pointlater, if you find something,
I'm just gonna use my name or meas the example.
If I know something and thenlater on I find something that

(29:38):
conflicts with that, I might getlike dismissive of conflicting
information.
I might get defensive, thatlike, oh, but I know this and
this conflicts with it.
So I'm gonna, you know, not beinto that, um, rather than like
being like, oh, wow, my currentstate of understanding does not

(29:58):
incorporate that like.
I want to look into that and seeif that can grow my
understanding.
Yeah, and I think that that's agood way to learn and, if I
have to say one of the things,and it's it's been happening for
a while, but I feel like, asmore and more stuff has been
taught online, um, people wantto, they, they want to learn so
quickly.
You know, like I'm.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
I get through this.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Yeah, I am an unschooled herbalist, so I did
not take um any kind ofstructured course with anyone
and I learned absolutely.
I've learned from a lot ofdifferent people.
I learned, absolutely learnedfrom a lot of different people.
I never went through anyone'sstructured educational course,
um to learn the stuff that thatI now teach um, and it took me a
really long time, and one ofthe reasons that took me a long

(30:43):
time because I didn't take acourse with anyone who could
have just explained something tome in like 15 minutes and
instead it took me like a coupleyears to figure it out and put
it together.
Um, but that's okay, like, and Ithink now when people are like
you know well, I can take a um,you know a two or three year
course and be a clinicalherbalist.

(31:04):
I'm like I wouldn't be able todo that, you know, I just so.
To me it's like learning moreslowly and not being in a rush
to know all the things and to beable to do like the most
complicated, like impressiveherbalism and sort of like what
the most complicated andimpressive herbalism is kind of
interesting because it changesover time, you know.

(31:26):
So it's like oh, is it treatinghypothyroid and endocrine
disorders, or, oh, is ittreating Lyme disease, or you
know no menopause menopause.
They're going right now right,I'm a trauma informed, you know,
herbalist and I can deal withall the different kinds of
trauma and you know, havingworked with trauma, I think like
there's a lot of differentkinds of trauma.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
There's a lot of we talk about trauma, informed care
, but it's like literally theiceberg.
It is the tip it is the verysnowflake at the very tip of the
only icebergs we have left.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Yeah.
So, like long COVID, you knoweveryone I understand like of
course we want to be able to tohelp people with the stuff that
they're dealing with.
But I think and we talked aboutthis kind of before we started
I think that a lot of peopleno-transcript, you got to be

(32:43):
really good at treating justregular coughs before you can do
that and being like, oh well,you know, when would I use this
particular approach to shoot acough?
Versus that approach, you know,am I also including, along with
teas and tinctures and syrupslike steams?
You know, am I thinking aboutlike is massage yeah.

(33:04):
Exercise or percussion orexercises or whatever, is this a
cough that's actually likecoming from the lungs, or is it
coming from like post nasal dripthat is irritating the throat
and you're coughing, kind of toscratch and itch?

Speaker 1 (33:18):
Is it boogery?
Yeah right, I use lots offormal language.
Can you spell?

Speaker 2 (33:25):
boogery for me.
I need to make sure I'm writingthis down properly.
Yeah, so I think you know.
Going back to the tower likehaving really solid foundational
understanding of what are thebasics.
And basics are likefoundational principles, not

(33:47):
like beginner stuff.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
You know people will be like oh, that's beginner
herbalism.
I already know that and I'mlike oh, I just feel like most
of what I'm doing is trying torefine my understanding of quote
unquote beginner herbalism,because I view it as
foundational and if I know thatreally well I can handle a lot

(34:10):
of situations, you know.
Oh yeah, I agree, there was atime and this is a long time ago
, decades back in my herballearning it was probably the
first time that I had a consultwith someone who was like really
remarkably sick.
They had lupus.

(34:30):
I think their lung functioningwas like in the teens, and you
know, I back then I lived in anapartment and I was doing house
calls or meeting people atlibraries or coffee shops, and
so I met this person at theirhouse and their ability to like
get up from a chair and walk tothe couch was impaired.

(34:52):
And I do remember thinking like, ooh, I am over my head and I
had this insight and it's it's,it's still one of the most
important insights that I havehad that I still apply regularly
, which is just because I can'tdo everything doesn't mean I
can't do anything.

(35:14):
And I like took a breath and Iwas like, okay, I'm not, my goal
or my expectation isn't goingto be that I'm going to make his
lupus go away.
That's not happening.
So I can take that pressure offmyself and be like what do I
see?
And what I saw throughobservation and through

(35:35):
listening and through, you know,intuiting, based on our
conversation and listen, youknow getting information was
like his lungs were reallyinflamed.
They've been inflamed for areally long time.
The tissue was really reallyreally dry and dry tissue.
To go back to that little pieceof leather, cracking that
leather yeah dry tissue.
To go back to that little pieceof leather, cracking that

(35:56):
leather, yeah, that um drytissue doesn't.
It's stiff, it doesn't want tostretch right, it loses its
pliability and so when the lungswant to, but the tissue is
really stiff, there's thatresistance there and I was like
I think slimy respiratorydemulcence would be great, and
so I made a tea that was likemarshmallow and plantain and

(36:20):
mullein.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
Slime, slime, slime.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, Slime, slime, slime.
Marshmallow, plantain andmullein.
And that tea did so much good.
It improved his quality of lifeso much.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
And that's so beautifully simple.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
It's so like massive change from beautiful simplicity
.
Yeah, they're not complicatedherbs.
They're not, like you know,cause sometimes just like being
able to treat the coolest youknow, complicated condition is
like the goal for people.
There's also the goal to use,like the most exotic sexy,
whatever is like.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Ooh, you know's also the goal to use, like the most,
every exotic sexy whatever islike oh, you know, I'm gonna use
ghost pipe for this.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Or like, oh, I'm skilled enough that you know I
can use like raw wolfia, um, andthere's a time and a place
where some of those herbs arelike the right thing, but a lot
of it was just like there'ssomething really simple and
discernible with your sensesthat you can figure out.
That will, that can reallyimprove someone's quality of
life, and I always do that.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
Keep it simple, silly .
I don't say stupid, becausethey're my students.
Well, I keep a simple, silly,like if you overdo it.
We also, we we talk a lot about.
Look, you don't have to knoweverything.
You don't know how to't have toknow everything.
You don't know how to know howto do everything.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
You need to listen to the person that's in front of
you and then find a way to makeit compliant and easy and
accessible.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
So if they're like I'll take one dose of tincture a
day.
Make it count.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Not everyone's going gonna do 47 things.
Yeah, I, you know I've hadpeople that have told me like,
oh, you know, my last herbalistor my last herbal teacher, you
know, would come with theseformulas.
And it was like you know,there's two trees you need to
drink and you know this one tea.
Um, because it's got ademulcent in there and some
aromatics.
It's best to do like a coldinfusion of the marshmallow root
separately and then combine itwith a hot tea, and I'm just
like I understand why that makesall the sense in the world.

(38:19):
That's a lot of work.
Yeah, I mean like I don't evenknow if I would do that.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
If you're busy and you have a life that we we want
to make people's lives better,not another task or another
chore or another.
Uh, I talk to my students.
I'm like, look, if you givesomebody something where they
cannot do it and they will fail,the healing stops because
you're like fine, I can't dothis, forget it.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
This isn't for me, you know, and instead of it's
like everything should be justpractical and simple, and or
that's just what I think I mean,I know, I'm so with you,
because if you come up with aprotocol for someone, you know
suggestions for them and it'sreally not realistic for them to

(39:08):
do.
And then when they don't comeback and see you and I've heard
people say things like this,like oh well, you know, they
just weren't really committed totheir healing and I'm like,
well, I mean, could they havebeen if they didn't feel
overwhelmed?
Because if they feltoverwhelmed with it, or they
couldn't afford it.
Yeah, and then they come back toyou.

(39:29):
They're going to be like no,I'm not doing the thing you told
me to do, no, I'm not.
They're going to feel like theyfailed and that just never
needs to be what happens.
And there are people who wouldlove a multi-pronged plan with a
thousand things to do, becausethey're meticulous people.
But there's a really simplething that we can do is we can
ask them, you know, like whatfeels doable to you, like this

(39:52):
is often what I do is like theseare my ideas, like what feels
doable.
You don't have to do all theideas at one time.
You can be like let's startwith like three things, like
what are three things that youfeel like you can do?
You know, can you eat moregreens?
You know?

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Can you stop using Splenda in your coffee?
Yeah, can you eat more greens?
Or?

Speaker 2 (40:12):
whatever, whatever, like.
Are you like?
I know I'm an herbalist and Ido have a thing where, like, if
I tell someone to drink tea andthey're like I don't like tea, I
I also do the thing in my head.
I'm like I'm an herbalist, he'smy thing like like tea man
that's what I do, but I will tryto keep that inside my head and
and then be like, okay, and and.

(40:34):
What I'm thinking quietly iswe'll work on the tea thing.
We'll get there, because whatit might be is, after I do
something that they can do andthey feel better from it, they
will be more open to makingspace to make tea.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Exactly.
I cannot agree with you more.
I can't believe this is thefirst time we've ever talked.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
I can't agree with you more.
You know't believe this is thefirst time we've ever talked
with you more.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I, you know it's like , uh, when people would ask me
like well, how do you make kidstake herbs, well, first of all I
would just be like, hey guys,you need to take this, you want
to feel better.
This tastes like, you know,whatever, just pound it.
You know that would be this thephrase that would give my kids
a pound it, and then it'd work.
And then they would be likegive me that stuff.
You gave me a pound last time.

(41:15):
You know cause they could, youknow, pound it or or put it in a
Popsicle, make it in theiroatmeal.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
I mean, like there's so many ways it doesn't have to
be Chasers, right, yeah, likewhat can you do a chaser?
Right you like this thing havethat be your chaser.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Exactly, and it's just.
I feel like sometimes herbalismhas gotten so regimented on how
it must be performed and how wemust apply and blah blah, and
I'm just like but we're not,we're human.
Some people will go out and eatthe plantain, Other people are

(41:55):
going to make it into a tea,other people, people are gonna
want it in an oil.
That's okay.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
You know, it doesn't all have to be the same way yeah
, yeah, and that I mean that'sthat's the great thing about it
too, right, it's because it itallows you to be um flexible, it
allows you to be creative.
I mean, it's one of the reasonswe say art, the art of
herbalism, is because there's somuch personal artistry to it.

(42:19):
I love looking at people'sformulas.
You know, like if I look atsomeone's formulas and I look
like, oh my God, I would neverhave done that and not in a way
of like that sometimes.
So sometimes it could be likethat's horrible, like that
sometimes.
So sometimes it could be likethat's horrible, but a lot of
times it's just like that's justlike.
You know, you get betterherbalism and you can be like,

(42:39):
oh, I see that I can see thereasoning in this formula and
how they put it together, but Iwould have never thought to you
know, mix this and this and this.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
And that's just like cooking, I guess you know.
I love those moments, though,where I like see someone's thing
and I'm like, whoa duh, whywasn't I doing that?
I love that, like because Ifeel so much, I get to learn so
much from those moments like,okay, I get it, let me learn
more, let me figure this out alittle bit more, like, why did
they do it like that?
And I those moments because itreminds me that we're not
practicing in a vacuum.

(43:15):
You know that, that we're alldifferent and we all have
different ideas on stuff.
That's really important,interesting work.
So I always feel lucky when mymind gets blown yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
It is great, it's one of the um I mean.
So you have this podcast, youget to talk to all kinds of
different people and and youknow, like, uh, I, I have ideas
and thoughts about a podcast andjust haven't put them all
together because oh, I thinkyou'd be great yes, so so many
projects trying to to get themall done, but, um, it like the,
the interaction between people.

(43:52):
um, and one of the things iswhen I started teaching online
to go back to the teaching thing, you know I was doing it and it
was.
You know it was right whencovet was happening and you know
like I was learning how itworked and people who weren't
used to doing it were learninghow it worked, and everyone had
their cameras off and you know Iwas like, oh, it's like I can't

(44:13):
see people's expressions, Ican't see where their stuff is
landing.
And then I just learned a fewthings and one of them was like
to tell people like, hey, like,if you don't want to have your
camera on, because, whatever youknow, you're in your bathrobe
or not, you know?
Yeah, I was going to say nudiewoodies or your house is really
messy and there's laundrybaskets around, that's totally

(44:36):
OK.
But if you, you know, if you,if you can have your camera,
that would be great, because itjust helps me to see people's
like facial expressions andreactions, and then people would
put their camera on.
It's like, oh well, you knowone of.
Wow, everybody's house is a mess.
We're all living in COVID,right, it makes people relatable
and I started doing this.
Other thing is like in theonline course, you know, there's
like videos that people watchand then we have our Zoom

(44:57):
discussion.
You know, of each little modulethat we release and at a
certain point after the you knowthe timeframe of it would end,
stephanie would have to likesave all the videos, you know,
and like do stuff downstairs.
So we couldn't just stopeverything and be done and go

(45:18):
upstairs and dinner.
We'd have maybe, like you know,a half hour to an hour of like
saving the stuff and puttingthings away.
And I was like I'm just goingto be like classes over, but you
can all turn your mics on.
You know, if you need to go,that's all, but you can all turn
your mics on.
You know, if you need to go,that's all, but you can all turn
your mics on and we can justtalk about stuff we can talk
about.
You can ask me other herbquestions you have.
If you're interested in that,you can.

(45:39):
You know, tell me about yourcat, you can?
You know, we just have thisopen-ended conversation and, um,
we start creating these likeafter banter, like there's
always after banter after thething, and it was so awesome and
it wasn't something that likethe majority of people did.
But there were the people thatstuck around and there were some
core people and then some, youknow, people that would, some

(46:00):
days or depending what theirschedule was, like more of the
back and forth and like theconversation that I would get to
have with students, like beforeclass or during lunch or after
class, which was like the stuffthat got cut out.
It made the whole interactionfeel like a lot more like two

(46:24):
way and it made me feel like Iwas kind of getting to know some
of the students and so since westarted that, we've just kept
doing that.
You know, there might be Ithink there was one time I'm
like I'm going to a concert, Ineed to leave Skedaddle.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
We started doing connection calls.
I just call them connectioncalls and, like you know, once
or twice a month I'll post it Ifthey show up.
They show up and we basicallyjust kind of free form talk
about what any you, you know,whatever anybody wants to talk
about, and sometimes we'll, youknow, upload them to the student
group.
Other times they just kind oflike you know, well, we don't

(47:00):
need that, use that for anything, but I think it's, I think it's
helpful because I think themore, the more we're online, the
further we are apart.
And like as business owners, wehave to be online.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
You have to be in those spaces that you know.
You know those spaces that youhave to be in.
I don't want anyone to come andfind me if I start putting out
brand names of social spaces.
They're coming for me, they'relistening, but you know, like,
like you know, it's the, thethat has robbed us of a lot of

(47:39):
connection by creating 30seconds soundbite connection,
and so my intention was tryingokay, let's, let's go back,
let's try to get back to realhours at a time connection
versus, you know, three minutesor whatever.
And I'm glad that you're ableto do the banter and the fun

(48:01):
stuff with your students at theend, because that's important.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
Yeah, it just it makes a huge difference and you
know it's so.
It's not that there's not truthto it, but it's so easy and
tempting to say, like, well,just, you know, in-person
classes are just inherentlyalways better than online
classes and if I wanted to, Icould, I could make a case for

(48:28):
that.
But then I think, like I've gotsome great relationships with
some of my online students.
Right and even and way betterthan that honestly is, some of
my online students have greatconnections with each other.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
I know some of mine have started businesses together
.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Oh, yeah, yeah, so I have some students.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
15 years they're still emailing me telling me
what they're up to.
I love that.
I'm not sure I would have hadthat face to faceing me telling
me what they're up to.
I love that.
I'm not sure I would have hadthat face to face.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Yeah, it is.
It is so great, you know, to seethat happen and to see like
these friendships form.
And then I think like, oh, youknow, like if I go back even
though it's a whole differentthing, but if I go back to my,
my late 90s email listservthings, you know whether the old

(49:17):
Yahoo group style groups likesome of the friends that I have
now that I think were in personfriends we met online, Like that
was like the origins of of our,our friendships were from that.
And I've just kind of forgotten,because we're just good friends
now, and like I'm like, oh yeah, I met that person online, I
met that person online.
And so it's like there's theeasy thing to say about, you

(49:42):
know, like in-person learningbeing better than online
learning.
And then I think there's themore well-considered thing,
which also goes into access, isthat there are access issues.
Access is that there are accessissues.
There are people that wouldlike to learn from me that just
don't have the means financiallyor geographically to come to
classes.
You know, but the way, um, thatI teach or, um, you know, the,

(50:07):
the content that I teach, reallyresonates with them and this
makes it available and like that, that makes me happy.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah, I love that.
That's I.
I feel like, um, I feel likethe growing pains of early
online has been worth it forwhat I gained from it you know
like um long-term commitments tostudents and and I do, I have

(50:36):
done in person um, actually myfirst in person was for the
department of defense oh reallyherbs and breastfeeding.
I was pregnant with my firstchild and they paid me to teach
a class to all the other moms.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
Oh, that is so funny.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
You know, I mean it's just funny because, like we
have these, I don't think Iwould have drawn students from
120 countries if I was teachingin person, right, and that is a
gift to me.
That is like I learned so much,much, like just from well, this

(51:17):
is how we use whatever in Egyptand I'm like what, what that's
so cool, you know Like.
So I just feel like, I feellike I've gotten so much out of
it personally, like just gettingthis, this variety of students
I don't think I ever would havegotten before.
So I understand the, theconnection throughout time and

(51:38):
space.
You know, like you can, you canconnect with so many more
people in that platform yeah andyeah, make, make.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
I mean if.
If the goal is or at least formy goal, is to like share
information and shareunderstanding and share I mean
one of my goals in teaching andone of the reasons of why I
teach is because I feel likethere's information that should

(52:12):
be more accessible than it is.
And if that's one of my goalsin teaching, then I should
embrace different ways of makingthat be accessible and not be
like I want it to be accessible,but only in this way.
You know A hundred percent thatbe accessible and not be like I
want it to be accessible butonly in this way.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
100%.

Speaker 2 (52:27):
And there's also just really practically doing.
The online course has reallyhelped me out, because one of
the things that was a strugglebefore is I only make a living
when I am somewhere doingsomething.
That's the only time that youknow any any income is coming in

(52:48):
is I am elsewhere.
Else, you know, and I am, youknow, doing something and for
the durations that I'm doing,that I'm making a living, and
when you know, different peoplewill structure online stuff.
Some people do all their onlinestuff live and I was like no,
I'm going to you know, like haveit be like to you know like
record, have it, have it be likesolid, you know, because, um, I

(53:08):
can make it be the way that Iwant to have the stuff that I
want, which was tedious, um, butI, I wanted you had ownership
of it.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yeah, it was your you were holding your room.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Oh, yeah, because you know like prior to to doing
that.
You know I've I've done onlinethings for other people which
you know I'm not upset aboutbecause I like them and
everything is cool, but I did.
There was one thing that I didwhere I was away and the thing

(53:42):
was like, oh, we can get, youcan make more income if we
stream this while you're doingit.
And I was like, oh sure, why,why wouldn't I do that?
And I think I learned, like acouple years later, that that
recording was being like usedover and over and over and over
again and I hadn't thought like,oh, oh, is that something that

(54:05):
can happen?
You know, I was like just thatone class.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
And so it's like, oh, I didn't know about that yeah,
when we, when we hire people toteach for us, we always do like
a licensing agreement, you know,like, look, this is how we're
trying to be really clear, likethis is how we're going to use
it, you know, so they know, andso they can come back and say
you're not paying me enough forthat, you need to pay me more.
Okay, let's talk.
But yeah, it's interestingseeing, like, the ways that

(54:32):
different things are used.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
There's a learning curve, but then I think like
there's a learning curve within-person stuff too, because I
thought that I, even though Ikind of want to, I'm not going
to out this person.
There was a person I taught anin-person class for going to um
out this person.
There was a person I taught anin-person class for, actually
taught a series of in-personclasses for them, and at a
certain point I was like I don'tknow if I really get on with

(54:54):
this person the way that I wouldlike to and I very specifically
thought it doesn't matter, I'mteaching for the students who
are coming to the class and notfor the person who's hosting
them.
until they did not pay me, likeyou know, three quarters more
than that of you know, a weekendthat I taught somewhere and

(55:16):
then after that I was like, ohno, like you know, I want to.
I want to have a sense of likewho I'm teaching for and what
their um values or integrity forso it's the thing like if it's
not like online, is different.
It's just learning how to to dothat.
And I think, going back tomaybe where we started, we're

(55:38):
gonna, you know, mostly focus on, like, teaching, educating
people.
Um, there is the, theunderstanding and the knowledge
that you have that you want toshare with students, but, in
addition, um, I have, you know,funny little props that I can

(56:08):
scratch my head, you know, witha little skeleton hand, um, but
that doesn't need to beeveryone's thing, you know.
So, like, yeah, what, what Ican, what I can do, is I can you
know, teach the way that I canteach.
And if someone said like, oh,could you know to teach
something like the way that, um,you know Guido.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Mazzei does.
I'd be like, yeah, no, I can'tdo that.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
That's not.
I'm not going to be able toteach something the way Kate
Gilday does you know, who is soawesome and like like a slower
processor than I am.
You know I can't do likemeditations or visualizations
before class because I'm toosilly to pull them off and I

(56:54):
talk too fast.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
I'm kind of the same way, so I can find.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
I can kind of like figure out like where my
strengths are, and that takes alittle bit of trying.
I have tried some stuff.
I mean like that did not work.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yeah, but in addition to the knowledge and figuring
out the way of teaching thatworks for you, some people are
really great at PowerPoints.
They do awesome PowerPoints, sothat could be it, but there's
also, like, the practicalitiesof how do you make this work for
you, you know, like, is there away that you can, you know,
practically make enough moneydoing it?

(57:27):
So it's worth your time ifyou're doing it.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
Can you do it long term this way, Like you don't
want to get stuck with a styleyou can't live with?

Speaker 2 (57:35):
Right, can you?
If you're doing in-personclasses, like, where are you
going to do them?
Like, is there a place you cando them?
Is it really expensive to renta space?
Is it really you know?
Like, if you want to do herbwalks, you know where are you
going to do the herb walks.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
Is there enough?

Speaker 2 (57:52):
parking?
How wide Like I do a lot ofherb walks Is there enough
parking?

Speaker 1 (57:55):
Well, is there?
Is there accessible pathways,or is?
There, you know who is going tobe coming on the on the walk
with you, or do you have to bewheelchair accessible or
whatever?

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Our bikes's going to be whizzing by you know, your
thing every 15 minutes, which issomething that I've done, you
know.
I remember when the pandemichappened.
It would be spread out like sixfeet, you know, even outside
for a while.
Over here there was this narrowboardwalk that we would walk

(58:26):
across with all of this poisonsumac on it and I'm like the
boardwalk's too narrow to getthe group of 20 odd people
together to look at the poisonsumac.
And so during lunch I just tooklike sidewalk chalk and I wrote
like little arrows on each ofthe wooden slots where there was
poison sumac and then I likewalked ahead of everyone.
I was like poison sumac, passit on, poison sumac.
And then I like walked ahead ofeveryone.
I was like poison see Mac, passit on.

(58:47):
Poison see Mac, pass it on.
And you see the arrows pointingto them.
That was.
That was really fun to do.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
actually that sounds fun.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
But yeah, it's just figuring out the practicalities
of it, because one one place Iwent to do a walk, you know,
like all the plants I was goingto be like three hours every
single plant I was going to talkabout on this loop trail.
We would see within the firstlike 30 yards and I'm like, okay

(59:13):
, I can space it out.
But people were like what aboutthis plant?
I'm like we can't talk aboutthat plant.
Yet I'm like this is like it'sa beautiful trail and it's a
great trail, but like that's notthe trail that works best for
the plant walk that I'm going todo.
Yeah, and that's not the trailthat works best for the plant
walk that I'm going to do yeah,it's hard.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
You've got to really think about things, and then
nature needs to be on board.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
You know?

Speaker 2 (59:38):
oh well, we were going to bloom this week, but we
decided not to.
Oh yeah, that happens.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
Climate's changing and things are popping up at
different times.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
There's a place I do walks at and um.
It's a it's a big beautifulfield and there's really just
like, um, two loop trails, thatkind of maybe look like, uh,
maybe they're set up like like,like dragonfly wings or like
damselfly wings, you know.
Um, so there's actually sort oflike four loop trails, but
let's just put the the like aloop this way and a loop this

(01:00:10):
way, um, and we get to meet backwhere we started at lunchtime
and they also do like dogtraining stuff in this area and
they also do don't eat anything,guys horse stuff in this area
and so I have to like look atthe schedule to make sure that
there's not like a horse thingor a dog thing happening at the

(01:00:31):
same time, because that'll behard to to co-navigate.
But sometimes they will mow theedges of the trails and so, like
I had scoped out this park, youknow, like two weeks before I
was going to do the walk there,and then, uh, I hadn't found the
right place to talk aboutMullen, because where I found it
was like too far and it was aJuly walk.

(01:00:52):
I want to talk about Mullen.
So I went back there the nightbefore the class and they had
mowed like maybe four feet infrom all the trails and made
them really wide.
So that was kind of nice,except they had mowed over
everything that was on the edgeof the trails, mullen loves
hanging out on the edge.
Yeah, I had to refine all of thestuff that I couldn't talk

(01:01:15):
about, and so another practice.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Okay, so just right there everyone who is listening,
right?
He said I had to go and re-findeverything, right?
That tells you the quality ofteaching, because some people
would have been like guess what?
They mowed Sucks to suck.
I don't know what we're goingto do.

(01:01:37):
And you were out there probablyuntil the sunset looking for
what you needed to find.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
I actually was out there.
Yeah, no, I can see it.
I'm seeing it in my head, untilit was dark.

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Walking really fast and you know, I was stressed out
about it and at a certain point, I mean I was totally stressed
out about it.
Actually, at a certain point Iwas like I've been walking
around a beautiful field Forwork For three hours now.
That's not the worst thing inthe world, um, but it's.

(01:02:12):
It is um, those things thathappen when you know you've got
something planned and then you,you, you leave and you've
forgotten your handouts.
Or you leave and you'veforgotten the stuff you're
getting, like I don't have my,my animal balloons.
What am going to do?
Those things are going tohappen.
You know there's going to bedays that you're like I just I

(01:02:36):
have class.
You know, this weekend I'mteaching, you know, all day
Saturday and all day Sunday, andI am not really feeling it, and
that's understandable.
Also, like I don't know, like Ithink about, like if I were to
go to see a band, if I were togo see, like you know, kansas,
you know play, oh, they'replaying on a day that I'm

(01:02:57):
teaching this year, crap, um,and they're, you know, maybe not
having like the most super onday.
I don't want them them to playand be like, well, you know, I'm
not really feeling it today, soI'm not really going to try so
hard.
I want them to be like I'mgoing to play the best I can for
where I'm at and for me as ateacher.

(01:03:20):
I think the same thing is likestudents, especially the
students that I have as anherbalist.
They would be reallyunderstanding if I'm like, hey,
I don't feel like.
You know, I didn't sleep welllast night.
People are generally, you know,pretty nice and understanding
about that, but I'd rather likejust figure out how to do the
best job that I can.

(01:03:42):
You know, if I'm a teacher, myjob is to offer classes and
teach them as well as I'm ablewhenever I'm doing it, and not
kind of be like, yeah, you knowI'm not feeling great so I'm not
going to try so hard yeah, no,I think that's a.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
I think that's an important thing because, um, I
always say I, I don't.
Students don't need to knowanything wrong with me.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Because it's it's nobody's business.
I need to give them my A gameevery day, even if you know I'm
pooping my pants in my face.
You know I'm just like not onRight I because, or you know I
didn't get sleep last night ormy dog died or whatever, and I

(01:04:28):
can say this is going on.
But I also, a long time ago, Iwas like it doesn't matter, it
matters to me, it doesn't matterto anyone else what's going on
in my life, like they don't youknow.
And of course people care andpeople are, you know, with
compassion.
I'm sure there'd be plenty ofempathy and all that kind of

(01:04:48):
stuff but it's like I don't needto bring that into the mix, so
I love that you.
You pointed that out Like it'sokay to be human, but also
bringing your A game is whathelps everyone, I think in the
long run, or did I?

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
completely.
No, I mean, I love Kansas somost people know kansas.
Dust in the wind.
Carry on wayward, son.
They're an amazing they have somany good songs an amazing prog
band and there was a stagewhere the original singer, um,
he just was, he didn't enjoy itanymore.
Yeah, and I remember being atsome shows where, like him, not

(01:05:31):
enjoying it anymore was socompletely evident, like he was
not trying really hard, hedidn't want to be there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
And you get like mad, you're like dude.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
I want you to enjoy it too.
I sort of like stopped goingfor a while you know, yeah, and
the rest of the band.
They were really into it andeverything, but I was like I
don't want to, like I mean, youknow, like I felt bummed out.
I'm sure he's so sick ofplaying carrie on wayward son
right you know, very good.
Yeah, um, like, because they,they play.

(01:06:05):
How many times have they playedthat?
Yeah, yeah, only wants to goand hear their favorite song
played by someone who is playingit.
Like, I'm sick of playing this.
I'm like, why would I try toplay this?
Well for you, because it mostlyabout how sick I am at playing
it.
Like, we all want that and andI carry it and and it's.
It has nothing to do with notbeing compassionate for yourself
and where you're at, it's justsort of like, if you're going

(01:06:28):
out there and and and teaching,um and it, someone might have
invested a lot of like going tosee an herbalist teach a class.
It might be the first time thatthey've done that.
Like, yeah, do your best forthem.
Um, they may have borrowedmoney to be there.
You know, I mean like With ifyou're deciding to be a teacher,

(01:06:53):
like always doing your best, Ithink is one of the
Unnegotiables.
It doesn't have to do with notbeing compassionate with
yourself.
You can totally becompassionate with yourself, but
you can still do your bestwhile you're doing that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Yeah, I had to learn a huge lesson teaching.
I am very direct via email.
I'm the worst emailer in theworld, right?
Someone will be like blah, blah, blah.
I'm like yep, sounds good.
And then they'd be like are youmad at me?
What?

Speaker 2 (01:07:22):
do you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
What do you want from that?
You know, like I had to learn awhole other language of
communicating because I was sodirect.
People would take it as Iwasn't friendly or I wasn't nice
or I didn't care.
I just was like the answer isyes, so I had to like really
teach myself.

(01:07:43):
That was something with workingonline early on that I didn't
get for a long time.
It really took me way too longto be like girl.
You need to be a little bitmore friendly.
People think you're sick in themud.

Speaker 2 (01:08:00):
It's like oh okay, I don't have that problem.
I have people ask me a simplequestion and I'll start writing
like it was a dark and stormynight and blah, blah, blah, blah
, blah, blah, blah blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, and
there's parentheses andsemicolons and ellipses and
they're like is it okay?
Like, like, if, will I be ableto find you if I show up to the

(01:08:22):
walk 10 minutes late?
Like that I can be concise.
Yeah, it takes.
I mean, there's the knowledgegoing back to, to summarize,
there's the knowledge of thematerial you're teaching, there
is um figuring out the way thatworks for you to be able to
teach it, and then there's justthe practicalities of like the

(01:08:45):
nuts and bolts of like how doyou make this work?
You know so because I do somany walks like parking lot size
matters and I've been doingwalks for for over 25 years and
two years.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
I was going to say a lot.
I've known about your walks fora long time.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
Two years ago and I do a lot of walks.
I do a tons of open communityclasses.
To me not everyone that is anherbalist.
Some people get to a pointwhere they're like I'm just
going to teach herb students.
I just do tons of opencommunity classes because I
enjoy it.
Two years ago I found a place todo a walk and it's on the other
side of the state from me.
I went to a whole bunch ofdifferent places and I quizzed

(01:09:23):
some people and um, smallparking lot.
And I was like I know how toget around, that I'll use google
maps street view and I'll lookacross the road.
Like directly across the roadthere's a street and you could.
There's street parking on thatstreet so you don't have to park
in the small parking lot withthe reserved for um, community
gardeners signs, um, you canpark in the street.

(01:09:43):
And then the walk was startingand of course, like even you can
park in the street.
And then the walk was startingand of course, like, even though
I had that in the email andeven though it was like really
explicit, like really explicitabout where you can park, people
were showing up and peopleparked in the reserve for
gardener spots.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
Oh man, you got that blow back.
It was fine, it was fine,because there were no.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
No one was out there gardening until we got back from
the walk and we saw a bunch ofpeople in the garden and I was
like, oh no, they.
They got there and all thethings were.
So when I um, yeah, I thought Ifound a work.
Basically, what I'm saying is Ithought I found a work.
Basically, what I'm saying is Ithought I found a workaround,

(01:10:27):
and what I did not account foris human nature, is people
pulled in, they saw a spot, theyparked there, they were kind of
like right on time andeverything was starting.
And because everything wasstarting, I needed to be focused
on, like, my classes startingnow and they decided not to go

(01:10:47):
and park across the street andwalk back.
They just stayed there.
And then when I got back at theend of the walk, at a certain
point, someone who was not onthe walk was like are you?
jim.
I was like oh, no, yeah, sothat's him over there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
He just left in the subaru find places that have
enough parking for real, forreal that's a really good,
that's really good yes so wehave kept you.
I think this is one of thelongest interviews I've ever
done and I feel like I couldtalk to you for hours, but we
should probably let you gobecause, uh, you probably have a

(01:11:28):
life to get back to, but wherecan people find you?

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
So my, oh, I was supposed to do that in the
beginning, wasn't I?

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
You referenced it a little bit, but let's make sure.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
Thank you for keeping me on track.
Woohoo, my website isherbcraftorg and, oh, depending
on when this comes out the newversion, you can look at it on
your phone.
So much easier version mightcome out or be coming out soon.
It will be coming out soonregardless, so that'll be really

(01:12:00):
nice.
And that site has all of a tonof free articles like lots of
free articles, I think, hundredsof pages worth of free writings
and plant monographs and thingson treating back pain or
sinusitis all that I put outthere for people to have so that
they can get an idea of, likethe way I teach and where I'm

(01:12:21):
coming from and whether thatresonates with them and then
hopefully send it for a classcoming from and whether that
resonates with them and thenhopefully send up for a class.
Right now, the in-personclasses are mostly listed on
herbcraftorg.
And then there's another site,herbcraftpodiacom, so podia is
p-o-d-i-a.
Herbcraftpodiacom has all ofthe online stuff.

(01:12:41):
There's a link from theherbcraftorg site, um, to get
you there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
Cool, we'll make sure we link in the in the
description cool.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
I have lots of you know um two and a half three
hour or day long classes.
Um that I do you do a ton ofclasses I do all different kinds
of structures for like everyone.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
I was looking at that .
I was like that is so cool.
I never.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
I just was like oh, I never thought of like I'm just
like blown away I love theglasses um, and I've got a
course and I go and teachweekends places.
I'll be at a few different umherb conferences.
Um, this year and every yearusually I can make it to a few
herb conferences.
So all of the different places,like wherever, if you can come
and see me teach somewhere, thatwould be great, say hi I I get

(01:13:28):
nervous going to urb conferencesthere's a lot of people there
well, it's like.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
So a few years I I taught at one um after 9 11 and
we had family in new york and soI went and I taught and I was
like I gotta go, like we got,like it was that weekend.
I was like we've got people we,and they were not happy with me
at all and it kind of my scaredme so I'm not.

(01:14:00):
I'm like I get a little chickenshit about conferences.
If I I'm invited to teach, I'lllike go and teach, and then I
leave, like, or I won't hang.
I'm so bad.
So I'm like I want to gosometime, just like and just go.
But then I get nervous and I'mlike well, I'll have to bring my
own van because I don't want tolike, I don't want to be in

(01:14:22):
anyone's.
It's so stupid, it's soridiculous.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
The thing that I do, in case I do this with anyone
here is I'll be at a conferenceand I'll start hearing other
people be at the conference.
I'll be like, oh, we shouldhave lunch, and oh, we should
have lunch.
Like, oh, you know, let's gettogether like for lunch and then
hang out.
And then I realized that I'vemade plans with more people than
there are lunches lunches likelike.

Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
There's no way that I can actually fulfill all of the
hangouts.
You need to rent a restauranthave lunch with everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
So yeah, that can.
That's one of the things that Ihave learned in terms of like
sort of reeling myself in islike not to over promise, like
what I can actually do, becauseI I really am genuinely
enthusiastic, like you know,someone's like oh, I'm gonna be
there.
I'm like totally come and youknow, have lunch.
And then I realized like, oh,you know, I gotta be careful
about doing that because I don'twant anyone to feel like, oh,

(01:15:12):
he said we do that and hetotally failed.

Speaker 1 (01:15:14):
Um, it's more like yeah, I just get so shy and then
people think I'm mean becauseI'll be like you're not really
coming off as mean so it's funnyI don't in this kind of
situation, but I mean, I thinkthe whole resting face was named
after me because I'll just belike and people are like what's

(01:15:34):
wrong with nothing?
I'm just listening and they'relike well, didn't sound like you
liked my lecture and I was likeno, no, I liked it I just sit
there.
So I've got.
That's what I'm working on withthe podcast and I'm working on
that.
I'm trying to be a better humanbeing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
Oh yay.
But, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
My own emotional weirdness Sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
Yeah, so those websites are like the two
websites.
There's a ton of stuff onYouTube, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
There's just there's lots of interviews with you out
there.
There there are people loveinterviews with you and I can
see why as an interviewer.
So, oh good, I think that'sawesome.
Thank you so much for beinghere that is so much better.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
If you're like, people love doing interviews
with you, but I'm not sure if Iget it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
No, they do.

Speaker 2 (01:16:27):
You wouldn't be interviewed by everyone if they
didn't I, yeah, I hello, I likepeople, I like talking with
people, I like you knowconnections, you know I like
making connections and so wellthank you for having me on I
would love to have you on againsometime.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
Um, just uh, I know you're busy, so I will be
emailing you um at some point.
I love to do follow-upinterviews with people.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
That's like our next season, I'm gonna follow up with
yeah are you still repeatingthings like yeah, I don't do
that anymore?

Speaker 1 (01:17:00):
no, we're just repeating guests people.
But no, but cause I like to seewhere people are going, cause
some of the first interviewerswere students who have
businesses, and so I'm going togo back and be like a year later
, like how's it going?
Like oh.
I want to you know.
I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
One of the things that's so cool about that is, um
, one of the things you, ifyou're a teacher, one of the
things eventually you learnabout, is, like being aware of
the power dynamic of, liketeachers and students, and that
is something absolutely be awareof.
But then there's also, likesometimes I think about it, like
my students are my employers.
Like like the, the reason that Ihave so much gratitude for the

(01:17:47):
people that come into class andthe reason that when we were
saying earlier that, even if I'mnot feeling great, I just wanna
do the absolute best that I canfor them all the time is
because they are the reason thatI can do any of this.
Like, if I offered classes andno one was showing up, I'd be
like I guess this is not goingto pan out Right.
And for people to invest their,their, their money and their

(01:18:16):
time and their attention, youknow, to to be a part of
whatever I do, whether it's inperson, online like I'm so
grateful because that allows meto do this.
Like I'm able to share thelearning and information and
insights that I have becausepeople are supporting me in
doing that.
So, like you know, when you'resaying, like you know, you have

(01:18:38):
students and then they branchout, and then they start doing
stuff being able to like, shineattention back onto them.
You, um, and, and what they'redoing, like it feels so good and
there's something really alsoawesome.
Um, you see how you like thisis never gonna end.
I'm gonna keep going it's nevergonna end is like people who are

(01:18:59):
your students at a certainpoint, like I don't really feel
like they're your studentsanymore.
They're, you know, like they'reyour colleagues now.
Yeah, they're.
You know, like they're yourcolleagues now.

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
Yeah, you know they're your peers or they're
your inspiration to trysomething different, because you
saw something that they did andyou're like or you're paying
them for a service.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
Yeah, it's so, so, so cool.
When I think about, like, thepeople who have been in classes
and see, like the things thatthey've gone off to do in
different ways and you know andagain you're not looking at like
, oh, they're my student andthey're able to do that because
of me it's more like, oh, wow,look at the cool direction you
know that they have gone offinto.

(01:19:38):
I'm so honored to have been apart of.
You know that that little bitof there.

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
Yeah, like, look at that gumption, you know like
little bit of their.
Yeah, like, look at thatgumption, you know like, look at
that, you know it's just, it'sso inspiring, it's, and and I I
really feel like everything inmy life that I've been able to
get is because they put theirfaith in me oh my gosh, I'm
gonna start crying.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
That's another reason why I probably should have
done't do the.

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
I I'm a uh anyways, like you know, with all
seriousness, like if someone wehad 200 people enroll.
In 1998 when I opened my doors,200 people took a chance on
some girl they met on a yahoogroup, like with all seriousness
, it was just like my husband's,like I'm not sure this is gonna

(01:20:29):
work and I was like we're gonnado it and he's like okay, like
because this was just so foreign, but like that, fed my children
literally.
Fed my children it literally.

Speaker 2 (01:20:44):
You know and then they stuck with me when I moved
to Europe.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
Our students stuck with us.
It didn't matter it, you know.
So, yeah, I totally resonatewith that.
I I literally feel they've beenthe building block that I have
built my foundation on herbally,and that connection is
something that, um, I fight forthem.
You know like I, I fight forthem.
You know like I'll fight foryou.

(01:21:09):
You know I believe in you.
I want you, I want you toexceed all expectation.
I want you to shine bigger andbetter than you know Bevan Cohen
.
He went through one of ourprograms.
I mean, he's trained with amillion people and we just were
interviewing him for the podcastfor his new book, and I can't

(01:21:31):
tell you how excited I am.
I bought like five copies.
I'm so excited for him, right,and it's not his first book, but
it was just like it was thefirst one where I got to
interview him about it, and soI'm like, oh, when this book
comes out, I'm going to give itaway to some students.
You know like I was, I got allexcited about it because I feel
almost like a grandma.

Speaker 2 (01:21:54):
I know we're supposed to be ending and wrapping up
but it was maybe two years ago,two or three years ago I was
thinking like I never get to goto anyone's classes, like you
know, like I'm always teaching,and then when I'm not teaching I
mean I really do, because Iteach a lot, I want to spend
time with my family and all that.
You just want to like go and bein a class.

(01:22:14):
And, um, that day I get thisemail that Bevan Cohen is
teaching at a library like 15minutes away, and I look at my
my calendar and it's like in theevening and I'm not doing
anything and I'm like I'm justgoing and so I like got there
and I go into the library and Isit down and he gets there and

(01:22:35):
he's talking to people and helike looks up and sees me and
then like, oh, he recognizes meand I'm to like wave, and he's
like, oh, hi, and he goes backto doing his thing.
And one of the things it waslike that I appreciated so much
it was really really great islike he just did his thing.
Because one of the risks that Ihave if I show up on someone's
class is, oh crap, I couldinadvertently make them nervous,

(01:22:57):
right yeah, I felt confidentthat he's like a really stellar
teacher.
He was going to be okay and thatwouldn't be an issue for him.
Um, or that they can like drawattention to me, and I'm not
trying to pull attention away tohis class and you know he's got
like a, an overlapping group ofpeople.

(01:23:17):
You know to like the more umspecific verbalism crowd that I
tend to draw um, and so it wasreally great and no one in the
place like recognized me and buthe, his, his class was great
and you know, like he was sosolid and his teaching style is
like really engaging andempowering and it was yeah, he
he was.
It was such a delight to go tohis class and he got to hang out

(01:23:40):
and blinker afterwards, uh, youknow, um in the parking lot
with him until he needed to likeget going.
I probably did the same thingto him that I'm doing to you
right now, which is that's fineperpetuating the conversation
but like, yeah, all props tobevin he.
He is a stellar dude yeah, no,it's uh.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
I love, I'd love seeing all the advances in our
craft and all of the new thoughtprocesses and different kinds
of brains doing things.
You know, it's not just likeone person, one herbalist, rules
them all or whatever right?
You know, it's like there'slots and lots of like different

(01:24:20):
voices out there from differentcultures and different.
You know, that was one of thethings I loved when I could
travel I mean, we did like 22countries with our kids as part
of their education but I couldgo anywhere in the world and
connect with someone about herbsbecause we knew the Latin names
and we could jive on that.
You know, and it's just, I lovehow it's opening like that the

(01:24:41):
world is opening and I'm soinspired by all of our students.
You know, and just, I don'tknow, I don't even know where
I'm going with this, but I'mjust so grateful every single
day.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
I'm starting to sound like a cheese ball.
It's all because of you outthere.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
Like we're we're we're gushing now because it's
true, it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
I mean my students do not realize that.
I mean, when I started Heart ofHerbs I think we made $13,000
that year as a couple and myhusband was out of work.
I mean, like you know, we, we,I wrote Heart of Herbs with a
baby on my lap, breastfeeding.
I mean like it was like a jumpin the water and they were my

(01:25:32):
water.
They believed in me enough togive me a shot and I'm still
here and I love it.
You know, I just think it'ssomething to be really grateful
for.
I think all small business andI do like to say like small
business owners, because that'swhat we are we're business
owners when push comes to shoveand I think that we are the

(01:25:53):
bedrock of our country.
You know, like small business,you know we've got to support
all of our small businessesSmall, micro, like mini
businesses.
I'm sure there's a few herbalbillionaires out there.
I don't know, it's not me.

(01:26:14):
I've heard the rumors, guys,and they're fake.
No Right, but you're not goingto write a book and make a
million dollars?
Well, I'm not going to, butanyways I should probably let
you get on with your life.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
And yeah, all right it was.
I'm a total delight chattingwith you, and if this can happen
again sometime soon, I'm allabout it oh yeah, definitely,
definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:26:37):
I want to.
I want to, uh, I want to talkto you about so many different
subjects and I know our studentsare absolutely like adore you.
So we have certain people thatwe suggest that they do follow
up education with, or side byside education, or check out
this perspective.
And and you're always on thetop of our list, because

(01:26:57):
everything I see from you is soimpressive the responses around
COVID were so impressive andcompassionate and I thought I
had always been a fan and readarticles and stuff.
But that really cemented to methat you were different and that

(01:27:19):
I understood your walk, and Idon't always understand people's
walks.
So you know, I don't.
I'm, you know, a barefoot girl90% of the time.
I don't always understand yourwalk, but I'll let you go and
thank your family for sharingyou for so long with us.
We really appreciate it and Ihope you have a wonderful day.

(01:27:42):
And where can we find you again?

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
Herbcraftorg is the best place to go to.
All right, start looking forstuff that I do yeah, it's all
there people.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
So definitely herbcraftorg and that's
h-e-r-b-c-r-a-f-torg.
Thank you so much for listening.
Have a wonderful day.

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