October 3, 2025 • 27 mins
In this eye-opening episode of Heart of the Flathead, PJ Sorensen of the Kalispell Planning Department offers a behind-the-scenes look at how neighborhoods take shape and development decisions are made. A Kalispell resident since childhood, PJ brings both personal and professional insight to the complex, years-long process that guides growth in the valley. From navigating regulations to coordinating public hearings and staff reports, he describes the planning department as “a point guard,” orchestrating collaboration across city functions to turn vision into reality.
The conversation dives into Montana’s new Land Use Planning Act and the pressure to create 15,000 new housing units over the next decade. PJ shares how the city is working to balance faster development with community values, all while ensuring Kalispell remains a place where residents of all ages and incomes can thrive. Whether you're a longtime local or a new arrival, this episode is a must-listen for understanding the forces shaping the Flathead’s future.
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The views and opinions expressed by guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the host or production team. Appearance on the show does not constitute an endorsement of any goods, services, or opinions discussed. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered professional, legal, medical, or financial advice. Always consult a qualified professional before making decisions based on the content of this show.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Heart of the Flathead, where we sit
down with the changemakers, theunsung heroes and everyday folks
who give this place its pulse.
If you live here, love here orjust want to know what makes
Kalispell and the Valley tick,you're in the right place.
And now here's your host, daveWiginton.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome everybody to the Heart of the Flathead.
I'm excited to have our guesttoday, PJ Sorensen of the City
of Kalispell Planning Department.
Pj, welcome to the Heart of theFlathead.
Thank you, Appreciate youhaving me on?
Yeah, great.
Obviously, the PlanningDepartment has been an extremely
important part of the City ofKalispell that's grown
tremendously over the past fiveto 10 years, and so we've got a
(00:43):
lot to cover today and I thinkthat our listeners will be
excited to hear some of thethings you have to say and
interested in some of the topicsthat we're going to cover today
.
But typically when we startthis podcast, we really want to
get a feel for who the guest isand we want to understand where
they're from, maybe a little bitabout their life's journey and
how they've gotten to where theyare now.
(01:03):
So if you want to go ahead andstart there, that'd be a great
place for us to get going today.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Okay, well, I grew up here in Kalispell, graduated
from Flathead High School, movedhere when I was eight years old
from Alaska.
We lived up there.
Dad was a civil engineer in theForest Service.
We bounced around a little bit,but once we got to Kalispell we
pretty much stayed here.
Now, after I graduated, I wentoff to school at Willamette in
Oregon since Salem Oregon, wasthere for undergrad and law
(01:30):
school both, and aftergraduating law school came back
to Kalispell, practiced locallyfor a couple years and then
switched over to city planning.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
At that point, so what kind of law did you?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
practice.
It was really general practice.
I was an associate at a firmhere and did a lot of family law
, but also a little bit oftaxation and a little bit of
property law and just a mix ofdifferent things.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
What was the motivating force that caused you
to cross the aisle from lawyerto city planner?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
So you know, when I went to law school I was never
really with the idea of, youknow, a practicing attorney
being involved in litigation andso forth.
I was always a lot moreinterested in property issues
and government issues.
My undergrad was in politicalscience, so I've always been
fascinated with the politicalprocess and history and how all
that comes together.
So it seemed like a good stepand you know, I wasn't
(02:22):
necessarily interested in doingit forever, but got involved in
it and really liked it and itwas a good fit for me what, from
your legal background, do youthink has helped you in your
current position?
You know a lot of it is justbeing able to get into and parse
through and understanddifferent regulations that are
out there.
There's a lot of differentthings that come into play when
you're talking about propertydevelopment through the building
(02:44):
permit process, subdivisions,growth policies.
You need to understand federalregulations.
You know when you're looking at, say, you know, floodplain
regulations We've worked withFEMA extensively over the years
when it comes to floodplain andother issues, certainly with
state statutes and being able torun through those and ensuring
that you're in compliance withall of the not just your local
(03:05):
rules, but state and federalrules to be able to understand
the legal precedent and how youshould approach different
projects.
So I think it's been invaluablein those terms.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
There's probably a lot of overlap or necessary law
background to be able tounderstand some of the documents
and ordinances that youmentioned and deal with on a
daily basis.
Yeah, exactly so you moved herefrom Alaska when you were eight
.
Have you ever been back toAlaska?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I've been back a few times.
So did one cruise up there?
But there's a couple of timeswe went back up and stayed with
some of the friends that we hadup there and yeah, it's an
interesting place.
It rains a lot up there.
We've got about 170 inches ayear, which is pretty crazy.
But it was a real interestingplace to grow up and when I was
down there, which was in the 70s, it was remote enough that you
(03:52):
couldn't even watch the SuperBowl live.
They had to ship the tape up onthe ferry and you watched it
the next day.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Wow, that's interesting.
So there seems to be a lot ofoverlap between at least
Northwest Montana and Alaska.
I find people that go in backand forth between the two places
as having similar appeal, Iguess from the outdoor
standpoint and I guesspotentially the climate,
although it sounds like there'sa lot more rain there than there
is here in the Flathead.
So what year did you graduateFlathead High School?
(04:18):
In 89.
And do you still participate?
You go to football games,homecomings, things like that.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, not homecoming, but you know the reunions
around here for sure.
My kids were both heavilyinvolved in the local schools,
you know, in sports and otherthings.
So, yeah, love going to thelocal football games, love going
across town.
And part of it is, you know,being local, that you run into
people that you graduated withor went to school with all the
time and that's part of what Ireally love about being in
Kalispell and working inKalispell.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So it's definitely a tight-knit community and it's
good to maintain those lifelongconnections.
They definitely make life funand interesting day in and day
out.
You never know who you're goingto come across, I guess, when
you're going about your day.
Well, let's get back to theplanning department here.
So, as you think about what theplanning department does, one
of the things that we're tryingto draw out in this podcast is
(05:13):
how these differentorganizations and these
different groups, what theirplace is or their role is in the
community and how theycontribute to the community
overall.
And I know people that areactive in government, going to
city council meetings and thingslike that.
They're going to understand theplanning department, but for
the layperson they may not fullyunderstand what the planning
department does unless they'vehad an experience with the
planning department.
(05:33):
So maybe you can shed somelight on that for our listeners
today.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Okay, you know, in a lot of ways I see our role kind
of as a point guard on abasketball team and that you
know you really need tounderstand the whole process
what everybody's role is.
You need to know.
You know when you need to reachout to, say, the public works
department, because they'redealing with the public
infrastructure, the streets,water, sewer, storm, those sorts
of issues.
You know I'm not an expert inthose, but the engineers over
(05:59):
there are and being able toreach out to them and whether
it's the fire department orparks department or however that
comes together.
So we do a lot of coordinationwith the other departments.
When a project comes in saywe've got a subdivision or
something like that that comesin, our department is the one
that processes that.
You know we'll send out thepublic notice, prepare staff
reports, conduct the publichearing, so we make the
(06:20):
presentations to the planningcommission and city council.
But really we're just kind ofthe focal point where we're
bringing all that together andkind of coordinating all these
different roles that the cityhas.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Got it.
Yeah, playing point guard is apretty demanding position on a
basketball court, so I canimagine you guys are under I
don't want to say pressure, butmaybe fire quite a bit to make
sure you're on the ball andleading the charge in the way it
needs to be led.
What kind of challenges do yourun into in the planning
department?
We've had a lot of growth herein Kalispell.
There's been a lot of expansionand obviously a lot of changes,
(06:55):
and so what are some of thechallenges that the planning
department runs to on a regularbasis?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
no-transcript sort of thing, and a lot of that work
goes on years before you see asubdivision come in front of
city council or you see specificdecisions being made in that
regard at that level.
Just a lot of background that'sin there.
When somebody somebody comes in, you know there's been thought
(07:47):
that's put into, you know whereutilities can expand to and
should expand to and I think oneof the challenges is staying on
top of that.
But I do think you know ourcity council, our planning
commission, all the departmentshave done a really good job of
having foresight in that areaand there's just so much work
that goes into all of thosedecisions before it's really
(08:09):
kind of out there for the publicin terms of the council meeting
.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Maybe you could close something up for me.
I always wondered you know so,when these developments of
housing get announced?
When they do get announced, arethey moving forward at that
point?
Or is that more of just hey,they're going before their
hearing or whatever?
They need to get approval andmaybe they still need to get
funding or something like that?
How do we interpret theannouncement of a new housing
development?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Okay, well, I guess it kind of depends upon what you
mean by an announcement on that.
But you know, usually when itfirst gets out there, you know
starts getting in the paper.
You know we send out a publicnotice.
You know the notices go outwithin 150 feet.
You know that's what state lawsays of the property as well as
(08:54):
in the legal notices in thepaper.
But that kind of kicks off thepublic process and you know
people can submit publiccomments.
They, you know whether it's inwriting or coming in and talking
to us, submitting it by emailor coming to the public hearing
and doing it in person.
But all those comments kind ofcome in as part of that process
and that's when people reallystart seeing what potentially
could be out there.
But that's just the start ofthe process.
It goes through the planningcommission makes a
(09:16):
recommendation based on thepublic hearing and the staff
presentation and the applicationmaterials that come in, which
typically involve a trafficimpact study, often a geotech
report, environmental statement,a number of other things,
depending upon the specifics ofwhat that is.
Then the planning commissionforwards that recommendation to
city council and then citycouncil makes that decision and
(09:38):
through that process you knowcertain conditions might be
placed on the property.
Typically there's a number ofconditions that come on there.
Some are standard and some areparticular to a project and
where it sits.
But as it goes through,typically staff would put
together the original staffreport with the proposed
conditions.
Planning commission, afterhearing everything, can modify
(10:00):
those conditions.
They can add some, take themaway or amend what's in there
and then city council can do thesame thing at the end.
And again, that's all based onthe public process and the input
and just some of the discussionas it gets out there into the
public forum.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Okay, so then, if I understand that right, what
you're saying is that the publicprocess is, or the beginning of
the public process is thebeginning of a larger process,
and they've got to go throughseveral iterations for lack of a
better term to get to, I guess,the finish line, to where they
can actually put shovels in theground and start the project Is
that right, right, definitely,definitely.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
And they still need to go out and they need to do
their specific engineeringdesign and design the water
mains and the roads and all theengineering that kind of comes
into play on that.
So they still have to workthrough our public works
department to get thoseengineering approval before they
go out and start developing,say, a subdivision, and accepted
(11:07):
by the city, city council stillneeds to approve a final plat
before there's actually lotsthere that a developer could
sell and you could get abuilding permit and put a house
on.
So it takes a while when you'rereally looking at the full
process for a development to gofrom a concept to a reality.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So it's interesting and it's a lot more involved, I
think, than the average layperson like myself understands.
So you guys are pretty neckdeep in this land use plan
that's going on.
There's this ordinance that thestate passed that requires, I
think, all cities to get theirland use plans revised in
accordance with new requirementsby next year.
(11:41):
Tell us what is a land use planand kind of what is the city
doing at this point with respectto its own land use plan?
You?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
know.
First of all I'd say you knowit's what you're referring to is
also known as Montana Land UsePlanning Act, or people call it.
You know Senate Bill 382,because that was the designation
when it went through.
You know it specified 10specific cities, which include
Kalispell and Whitefish andColumbia Falls, that needed to
adopt kind of a new version ofwhat we already had.
So we had what was called agrowth policy before and now
(12:12):
it's the land use plan.
Both of those situations arereally similar.
There are certain things thatare updated in that there's more
of a focus on housing.
But what a land use plan is isreally a policy document.
So it's not a regulation itself, but it gives guidance to staff
and to planning commission andto council as they're making
(12:33):
land use decisions.
So if somebody comes in with asubdivision that they want to
put out on the edge of the city,for example, we look at our
land use map and it would saywell, how dense should this be?
Should it allow apartments?
Should it just be?
Should this be?
Should it allow apartments?
Should it just be larger,single family, should it allow
commercial or neighborhoodcommercial involved in it?
And then we use that land useplan to then guide those
(12:55):
decisions and to say what'sappropriate in that area.
And then it gets into a littlebit more depth too.
We've got chapters oninfrastructure and local
services, and that's where weincorporate in the what are
called facility plans for waterand sewer, and so that's the
plans out there that theengineers put together on how
our different systems shoulddevelop.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So what is the difference then, I guess and
maybe you mentioned this, but Ididn't catch it between the
growth policy and the land useplan?
It sounds like they're tryingto do the same thing.
It's just the name change.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Well, there's two things that were major changes
under this Land Use Planning Act, and part of it has to do with
the plan itself and part of itis how it gets implemented.
So the part that really changesthe plan itself, adopted by the
state legislature, really kindof grew out of the housing task
(13:48):
force at the state level andtrying to look at what was
creating the issues of, you know, lack of housing and lack of
affordable housing andattainable housing that was out
there and try to then implementthings that would help alleviate
that situation on a statewidelevel.
And so a focus on housingbecame a core part of this new
(14:09):
land use plan, not that itwasn't part of the growth policy
before, but there's certainthings that we really had to
zero in on as part of that.
One of the aspects is there was14 housing strategies and the
cities have to adopt at leastfive of those.
So it'd be say, addingaccessory dwelling units or
decreasing what your lot sizesare, or making apartments
(14:30):
permitted uses, and I saidthere's a range of 14 of them
that the city would ultimatelyneed to adopt as part of that
plan.
So those are the major changesin the plan itself.
The really controversial partis that when you get once you're
under that plan and you get tosite-specific development so a
subdivision or conditional usepermit, say for an apartment
building, you wouldn't havepublic hearings on those anymore
(14:53):
.
So those would beadministrative decisions that
staff would look at and say, yep, it's in compliance at least
substantial compliance with theland use plan.
It meets our subdivisioncriteria or our zoning criteria.
We would do an administrativeapproval instead of taking that
to council, and that's one ofthe things that is still subject
to some litigation out there.
(15:14):
So I'm not sure what the finallook of that is going to be, but
it's definitely the mostcontroversial part of that on a
statewide basis.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
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Speaker 2 (16:36):
So what is the intent of that?
I mean, are they trying toeliminate public comment, or why
do they want to just move it tothe administrative approval
process versus the publichearing?
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I think part of it was streamlining the process.
You know everybody talks aboutred tape right and trying to
eliminate that.
I think part of it was tryingto get some of the emotional
reaction out of land usedecisions.
Basically it's the state sayingif it meets all of your rules
and it's somebody's, it's stilla private property type of an
issue.
They own the property and wantto develop it in a certain way
(17:08):
that's in compliance with allthe applicable rules that are
out there.
Then they should be able tomove forward with that and not
have kind of an emotionalreaction that can be
inconsistent.
You know you may have that sortof reaction with one project
and not another and that createsa difference on how you wind up
approaching potentialdevelopments out there.
So I think it was, you know,twofold at least on what they
(17:31):
were doing.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Right?
Well, we certainly love ourland in Montana, so I'm sure
it's going to continue to be acontentious issue until they get
it finalized, even after thenmaybe.
But how would you?
I mean along those lines?
Then you talk about housingwith this bill and it's kind of
the primary focus, one of theprimary focuses.
How would you characterize thehousing situation in Califom and
(17:53):
we've heard, you know, housingshortages.
People can't lack ofaffordability.
But from a professionalstandpoint or from a planner
standpoint, what?
How do you look at it and howwould you communicate that to
say, an outsider?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Well, you know I think we've made advances in
that situation.
You know it wasn't that longago that we had vacancy rates of
less than 1% in the rentalmarket, which is not really a
sustainable type of a thing.
There was a housing study thatwas done through the University
of Montana, I think it was in 22, that said that.
You know, over 10 years weneeded 15,000 housing units in
(18:30):
the flathead just to keep pacewith the growth.
And I think people need tounderstand growth isn't just
somebody moving to town from outof the area, although that's a
component of it, you know.
It's also our kids, you know,graduating from high school and
looking for jobs.
You know there's all sorts ofpeople I know that have got
their kids living in thebasement because even if they
(18:50):
have good jobs here, they can'tafford the bottom of the market,
and that's an issue.
You know, if we want to have asustainable community in the
long term, you want your kids tobe able to grow up and stay
here.
So I think they get into tryingto figure out their budget on
(19:24):
actual construction.
Sometimes they don't happen,but you know there's an
inventory of entitled units thatare out there too, but still
you need to keep pace with that.
You know it's a growingcommunity.
Like I said, even if peoplearen't moving in from out of the
area, it's still a growingcommunity that you need to
account for.
And I think that there's somepent-up demand there as well,
(19:45):
just because our market, ourhousing market, is kind of
outpacing our labor market interms of wages, especially for
people that are getting started,and there's a lot of demand out
there that just can't get intothe bottom of the market.
And so you know we've tried toencourage condominiums in some
situations and you know there'sat least one larger project on
the north end of town that istrying to do just that with the
(20:07):
mixed-use project and doingcondominiums on both ends of the
market so new people can getinto those and it's more
affordable and kind of get theirfoot into the housing market in
terms of ownership.
But also on the back end of themarket, where people are, you
know, aging, they've got thekids moving out, you know don't
necessarily want to have, youknow, a big yard to maintain and
(20:29):
can get into a situation likethat too.
So you know, I think, gettingcreative you know both on, you
know on the city side, but youknow, also on the development
side as to different productsthat are out there.
I think would continue to helpwith that.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So what is the developer appetite for something
like that, the condo type ofsituation?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I think some are interested in it.
I think that there's somelittle bumps in terms of some of
the legalities out there and itimpacts the financing that they
can get.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And that's had an impact on some of running into
that may limit their ability ortheir desire to build new
housing.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Well, to build new housing in general, you know
it's there's a lot of differentfactors that go in and I think
that that was something thatcame out of the there was a
parent in the housing task forcereport that they did as well,
because you know it's.
You know a component of itwould be, you know, working
through government regulation.
But a big component is cost ofsupplies.
You know, I've known somedevelopers that have just bought
(21:35):
trucks and shipped in suppliesfrom out of state just because
they couldn't get to anythingaffordably in the general area.
Labor supply is a difficultthing.
You know, like I said, even ifwe've got 5,000 housing units
that the city has approved andare sitting there, they just
need to pull a building permitand get going.
There's only so many plumbersand electricians and framers
(21:56):
that you can employ at one time.
So you know the labor market interms of workers, to actually
get out there and construct thebuildings is something that
people need to work through aswell.
Financing rates being higherright now is certainly an issue.
I think it's gotten better.
But going back to supply, youknow, right after COVID there
was especially like withelectrical panels and so forth
(22:19):
there were some major apartmentprojects that got mothballed,
that was halfway underconstruction, got mothballed for
six months just because theycouldn't get electrical panels
in because of the limitationsjust nationwide on what was
going on there.
I've experienced that, okay,yeah, so no surprise for you,
yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Obviously, housing is a big part of any community and
it's been a bit of a pressurepoint in ours.
But transitioning then fromthat to just overall, when you
look at the Flathead now from anindividual, as a citizen as
being from here, but also as acity planner, what does a better
(22:59):
and stronger future for ourcommunity look like?
Speaker 3 (23:02):
for you.
Well, I think the key is youneed to make sure that there's a
place for everyone and I thinkthat you need to make sure that
you provide for a range of needsthat are out there.
You know a full range of.
You know, regardless of whatyour income is, what your age is
, certainly you know creating acommunity where people can age
in place is really vital.
Making sure that you knowaccessibility issues, with ADA
(23:24):
issues, are addressed, but youknow that's part of having a
community is that you know weshould have open arms for
everybody in here and thereshould be a place for them.
You know, certainly housingbeing a major component of that,
but just being part of thecommunity as a whole.
And for me personally, I thinkone of the important things is
you know really.
You know as we get moretechnological and the way that
(23:45):
we live is really as we get moretechnological and the way that
we live, I think preserving anddeveloping personal connections
is really important and I surehope we don't lose sight of that
.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So I love that.
I love the open arms concepttoo.
Welcome everybody in and tryand accommodate everybody as
much as we can.
Well, PJ, we're gonnatransition to our Flathead Five
questions that we ask all ourguests and before I do that,
thank you for being here todayand for sharing so much
information with us.
So these are just rapid firequestions that we'll jump into
(24:16):
and short one word or onesentence answers are fine.
So what's your favorite hiddengem in the community?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I really think it's the people gem in the community.
I really think it's the people.
I just love the fact,especially since I grew up here,
that I can walk down the streetand I can see my old coach or
walk into a bar and bartenderwould have my drink sitting out
before I say anything, andthat's my favorite hidden gem.
Chris or Bobcat this is ridingthe fence, but it's both.
I didn't go to either one.
(24:44):
I had one of my kids go to U ofM and one go to MSU and what I
would love more than anything isfor them both to be undefeated
and go into the Cat Grizz gameand then have the Grizzlies win.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Perfect, all right.
What's your favorite outdooractivity in the Valley?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Definitely skiing.
You know, since I grew up hereI still call it Big Mountain.
But getting up there on themountain in the winter,
especially on an inversion day,there's nothing like that I
agree with that?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
What do you know today that you wish you knew
when you started out?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
That nobody's perfect and that it's okay to rely on
others, just the same way thatI'd want them to be able to know
they could rely on me.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That is wisdom right there.
Know they could rely on me.
That is wisdom right there.
So when your story's over thebook is written, what do you
want?
The one or two sentence reviewon your book to be.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I'm hoping that it would say something along the
lines that he was an intelligent, creative thinker who loved his
kids, cared for his friends,acted with integrity and helped
build a better community.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
PJ, again I want to thank you so much for being on
Heart of the Flathead today.
This is obviously a timelyepisode, with the land use plan
process and happening right now,but also just housing and land
in general is a big deal here.
So thank you for sharing somuch information with us and for
taking the time out of yourbusy schedule to be with us
(26:07):
today.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
We really appreciate it.
Yeah, no problem.
And again, I appreciate theopportunity and I think you're
doing a great job with thepodcast.
Thanks, pj, all right.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Thanks for listening to this episode of heart of the
flathead.
We'd love to hear your thoughtsabout today's episode and the
podcast in general.
You can listen atheartoftheflatheadcom or
wherever you listen to podcasts,and you can reach David via the
contact page atheartoftheflatheadcom or by
clicking on the send us feedbacklink at the top of the episode
description and your favoritepodcast app.
(26:39):
Heart of the Flathead isproduced by David Wiginton in
partnership with Left Brain,right Brain Marketing.
Listeners can find the podcastonline at heartoftheflatheadcom
and leftbrainrightbrainmarketingat lbrbmcom.
The content for Heart of theFlathead podcasts and any show
notes and transcripts arecopyrighted by David Wiginton,
(27:02):
all rights reserved.
Reproduction and rebroadcastingin whole or in part is strictly
prohibited without writtenpermission.
Contact David Wiginton atheartoftheflatheadcom with your
request.
The views and opinionsexpressed by guests on this
podcast are their own and do notnecessarily reflect those of
the host or the production team.
Appearance on the show does notconstitute an endorsement of
(27:26):
any goods, services or opinionsdiscussed.
The podcast is forinformational and entertainment
purposes only and should not beconsidered professional legal,
medical or financial advice.
Always consult a qualifiedprofessional before making
decisions based on the contentof this show.
Welcome to the Heart of the Flathead, where we sit
down with the changemakers, theunsung heroes and everyday folks
who give this place its pulse.
If you live here, love here orjust want to know what makes
Kalispell and the Valley tick,you're in the right place.
And now here's your host, daveWiginton.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome everybody to the Heart of the Flathead.
I'm excited to have our guesttoday, PJ Sorensen of the City
of Kalispell Planning Department.
Pj, welcome to the Heart of theFlathead.
Thank you, Appreciate youhaving me on?
Yeah, great.
Obviously, the PlanningDepartment has been an extremely
important part of the City ofKalispell that's grown
tremendously over the past fiveto 10 years, and so we've got a
(00:43):
lot to cover today and I thinkthat our listeners will be
excited to hear some of thethings you have to say and
interested in some of the topicsthat we're going to cover today
.
But typically when we startthis podcast, we really want to
get a feel for who the guest isand we want to understand where
they're from, maybe a little bitabout their life's journey and
how they've gotten to where theyare now.
(01:03):
So if you want to go ahead andstart there, that'd be a great
place for us to get going today.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Okay, well, I grew up here in Kalispell, graduated
from Flathead High School, movedhere when I was eight years old
from Alaska.
We lived up there.
Dad was a civil engineer in theForest Service.
We bounced around a little bit,but once we got to Kalispell we
pretty much stayed here.
Now, after I graduated, I wentoff to school at Willamette in
Oregon since Salem Oregon, wasthere for undergrad and law
(01:30):
school both, and aftergraduating law school came back
to Kalispell, practiced locallyfor a couple years and then
switched over to city planning.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
At that point, so what kind of law did you?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
practice.
It was really general practice.
I was an associate at a firmhere and did a lot of family law
, but also a little bit oftaxation and a little bit of
property law and just a mix ofdifferent things.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
What was the motivating force that caused you
to cross the aisle from lawyerto city planner?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
So you know, when I went to law school I was never
really with the idea of, youknow, a practicing attorney
being involved in litigation andso forth.
I was always a lot moreinterested in property issues
and government issues.
My undergrad was in politicalscience, so I've always been
fascinated with the politicalprocess and history and how all
that comes together.
So it seemed like a good stepand you know, I wasn't
(02:22):
necessarily interested in doingit forever, but got involved in
it and really liked it and itwas a good fit for me what, from
your legal background, do youthink has helped you in your
current position?
You know a lot of it is justbeing able to get into and parse
through and understanddifferent regulations that are
out there.
There's a lot of differentthings that come into play when
you're talking about propertydevelopment through the building
(02:44):
permit process, subdivisions,growth policies.
You need to understand federalregulations.
You know when you're looking at, say, you know, floodplain
regulations We've worked withFEMA extensively over the years
when it comes to floodplain andother issues, certainly with
state statutes and being able torun through those and ensuring
that you're in compliance withall of the not just your local
(03:05):
rules, but state and federalrules to be able to understand
the legal precedent and how youshould approach different
projects.
So I think it's been invaluablein those terms.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
There's probably a lot of overlap or necessary law
background to be able tounderstand some of the documents
and ordinances that youmentioned and deal with on a
daily basis.
Yeah, exactly so you moved herefrom Alaska when you were eight
.
Have you ever been back toAlaska?
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I've been back a few times.
So did one cruise up there?
But there's a couple of timeswe went back up and stayed with
some of the friends that we hadup there and yeah, it's an
interesting place.
It rains a lot up there.
We've got about 170 inches ayear, which is pretty crazy.
But it was a real interestingplace to grow up and when I was
down there, which was in the 70s, it was remote enough that you
(03:52):
couldn't even watch the SuperBowl live.
They had to ship the tape up onthe ferry and you watched it
the next day.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Wow, that's interesting.
So there seems to be a lot ofoverlap between at least
Northwest Montana and Alaska.
I find people that go in backand forth between the two places
as having similar appeal, Iguess from the outdoor
standpoint and I guesspotentially the climate,
although it sounds like there'sa lot more rain there than there
is here in the Flathead.
So what year did you graduateFlathead High School?
(04:18):
In 89.
And do you still participate?
You go to football games,homecomings, things like that.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Well, not homecoming, but you know the reunions
around here for sure.
My kids were both heavilyinvolved in the local schools,
you know, in sports and otherthings.
So, yeah, love going to thelocal football games, love going
across town.
And part of it is, you know,being local, that you run into
people that you graduated withor went to school with all the
time and that's part of what Ireally love about being in
Kalispell and working inKalispell.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So it's definitely a tight-knit community and it's
good to maintain those lifelongconnections.
They definitely make life funand interesting day in and day
out.
You never know who you're goingto come across, I guess, when
you're going about your day.
Well, let's get back to theplanning department here.
So, as you think about what theplanning department does, one
of the things that we're tryingto draw out in this podcast is
(05:13):
how these differentorganizations and these
different groups, what theirplace is or their role is in the
community and how theycontribute to the community
overall.
And I know people that areactive in government, going to
city council meetings and thingslike that.
They're going to understand theplanning department, but for
the layperson they may not fullyunderstand what the planning
department does unless they'vehad an experience with the
planning department.
(05:33):
So maybe you can shed somelight on that for our listeners
today.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Okay, you know, in a lot of ways I see our role kind
of as a point guard on abasketball team and that you
know you really need tounderstand the whole process
what everybody's role is.
You need to know.
You know when you need to reachout to, say, the public works
department, because they'redealing with the public
infrastructure, the streets,water, sewer, storm, those sorts
of issues.
You know I'm not an expert inthose, but the engineers over
(05:59):
there are and being able toreach out to them and whether
it's the fire department orparks department or however that
comes together.
So we do a lot of coordinationwith the other departments.
When a project comes in saywe've got a subdivision or
something like that that comesin, our department is the one
that processes that.
You know we'll send out thepublic notice, prepare staff
reports, conduct the publichearing, so we make the
(06:20):
presentations to the planningcommission and city council.
But really we're just kind ofthe focal point where we're
bringing all that together andkind of coordinating all these
different roles that the cityhas.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Got it.
Yeah, playing point guard is apretty demanding position on a
basketball court, so I canimagine you guys are under I
don't want to say pressure, butmaybe fire quite a bit to make
sure you're on the ball andleading the charge in the way it
needs to be led.
What kind of challenges do yourun into in the planning
department?
We've had a lot of growth herein Kalispell.
There's been a lot of expansionand obviously a lot of changes,
(06:55):
and so what are some of thechallenges that the planning
department runs to on a regularbasis?
Speaker 3 (07:27):
no-transcript sort of thing, and a lot of that work
goes on years before you see asubdivision come in front of
city council or you see specificdecisions being made in that
regard at that level.
Just a lot of background that'sin there.
When somebody somebody comes in, you know there's been thought
(07:47):
that's put into, you know whereutilities can expand to and
should expand to and I think oneof the challenges is staying on
top of that.
But I do think you know ourcity council, our planning
commission, all the departmentshave done a really good job of
having foresight in that areaand there's just so much work
that goes into all of thosedecisions before it's really
(08:09):
kind of out there for the publicin terms of the council meeting
.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Maybe you could close something up for me.
I always wondered you know so,when these developments of
housing get announced?
When they do get announced, arethey moving forward at that
point?
Or is that more of just hey,they're going before their
hearing or whatever?
They need to get approval andmaybe they still need to get
funding or something like that?
How do we interpret theannouncement of a new housing
development?
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Okay, well, I guess it kind of depends upon what you
mean by an announcement on that.
But you know, usually when itfirst gets out there, you know
starts getting in the paper.
You know we send out a publicnotice.
You know the notices go outwithin 150 feet.
You know that's what state lawsays of the property as well as
(08:54):
in the legal notices in thepaper.
But that kind of kicks off thepublic process and you know
people can submit publiccomments.
They, you know whether it's inwriting or coming in and talking
to us, submitting it by emailor coming to the public hearing
and doing it in person.
But all those comments kind ofcome in as part of that process
and that's when people reallystart seeing what potentially
could be out there.
But that's just the start ofthe process.
It goes through the planningcommission makes a
(09:16):
recommendation based on thepublic hearing and the staff
presentation and the applicationmaterials that come in, which
typically involve a trafficimpact study, often a geotech
report, environmental statement,a number of other things,
depending upon the specifics ofwhat that is.
Then the planning commissionforwards that recommendation to
city council and then citycouncil makes that decision and
(09:38):
through that process you knowcertain conditions might be
placed on the property.
Typically there's a number ofconditions that come on there.
Some are standard and some areparticular to a project and
where it sits.
But as it goes through,typically staff would put
together the original staffreport with the proposed
conditions.
Planning commission, afterhearing everything, can modify
(10:00):
those conditions.
They can add some, take themaway or amend what's in there
and then city council can do thesame thing at the end.
And again, that's all based onthe public process and the input
and just some of the discussionas it gets out there into the
public forum.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Okay, so then, if I understand that right, what
you're saying is that the publicprocess is, or the beginning of
the public process is thebeginning of a larger process,
and they've got to go throughseveral iterations for lack of a
better term to get to, I guess,the finish line, to where they
can actually put shovels in theground and start the project Is
that right, right, definitely,definitely.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
And they still need to go out and they need to do
their specific engineeringdesign and design the water
mains and the roads and all theengineering that kind of comes
into play on that.
So they still have to workthrough our public works
department to get thoseengineering approval before they
go out and start developing,say, a subdivision, and accepted
(11:07):
by the city, city council stillneeds to approve a final plat
before there's actually lotsthere that a developer could
sell and you could get abuilding permit and put a house
on.
So it takes a while when you'rereally looking at the full
process for a development to gofrom a concept to a reality.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So it's interesting and it's a lot more involved, I
think, than the average layperson like myself understands.
So you guys are pretty neckdeep in this land use plan
that's going on.
There's this ordinance that thestate passed that requires, I
think, all cities to get theirland use plans revised in
accordance with new requirementsby next year.
(11:41):
Tell us what is a land use planand kind of what is the city
doing at this point with respectto its own land use plan?
You?
Speaker 3 (11:48):
know.
First of all I'd say you knowit's what you're referring to is
also known as Montana Land UsePlanning Act, or people call it.
You know Senate Bill 382,because that was the designation
when it went through.
You know it specified 10specific cities, which include
Kalispell and Whitefish andColumbia Falls, that needed to
adopt kind of a new version ofwhat we already had.
So we had what was called agrowth policy before and now
(12:12):
it's the land use plan.
Both of those situations arereally similar.
There are certain things thatare updated in that there's more
of a focus on housing.
But what a land use plan is isreally a policy document.
So it's not a regulation itself, but it gives guidance to staff
and to planning commission andto council as they're making
(12:33):
land use decisions.
So if somebody comes in with asubdivision that they want to
put out on the edge of the city,for example, we look at our
land use map and it would saywell, how dense should this be?
Should it allow apartments?
Should it just be?
Should this be?
Should it allow apartments?
Should it just be larger,single family, should it allow
commercial or neighborhoodcommercial involved in it?
And then we use that land useplan to then guide those
(12:55):
decisions and to say what'sappropriate in that area.
And then it gets into a littlebit more depth too.
We've got chapters oninfrastructure and local
services, and that's where weincorporate in the what are
called facility plans for waterand sewer, and so that's the
plans out there that theengineers put together on how
our different systems shoulddevelop.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
So what is the difference then, I guess and
maybe you mentioned this, but Ididn't catch it between the
growth policy and the land useplan?
It sounds like they're tryingto do the same thing.
It's just the name change.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Well, there's two things that were major changes
under this Land Use Planning Act, and part of it has to do with
the plan itself and part of itis how it gets implemented.
So the part that really changesthe plan itself, adopted by the
state legislature, really kindof grew out of the housing task
(13:48):
force at the state level andtrying to look at what was
creating the issues of, you know, lack of housing and lack of
affordable housing andattainable housing that was out
there and try to then implementthings that would help alleviate
that situation on a statewidelevel.
And so a focus on housingbecame a core part of this new
(14:09):
land use plan, not that itwasn't part of the growth policy
before, but there's certainthings that we really had to
zero in on as part of that.
One of the aspects is there was14 housing strategies and the
cities have to adopt at leastfive of those.
So it'd be say, addingaccessory dwelling units or
decreasing what your lot sizesare, or making apartments
(14:30):
permitted uses, and I saidthere's a range of 14 of them
that the city would ultimatelyneed to adopt as part of that
plan.
So those are the major changesin the plan itself.
The really controversial partis that when you get once you're
under that plan and you get tosite-specific development so a
subdivision or conditional usepermit, say for an apartment
building, you wouldn't havepublic hearings on those anymore
(14:53):
.
So those would beadministrative decisions that
staff would look at and say, yep, it's in compliance at least
substantial compliance with theland use plan.
It meets our subdivisioncriteria or our zoning criteria.
We would do an administrativeapproval instead of taking that
to council, and that's one ofthe things that is still subject
to some litigation out there.
(15:14):
So I'm not sure what the finallook of that is going to be, but
it's definitely the mostcontroversial part of that on a
statewide basis.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
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Speaker 2 (16:36):
So what is the intent of that?
I mean, are they trying toeliminate public comment, or why
do they want to just move it tothe administrative approval
process versus the publichearing?
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I think part of it was streamlining the process.
You know everybody talks aboutred tape right and trying to
eliminate that.
I think part of it was tryingto get some of the emotional
reaction out of land usedecisions.
Basically it's the state sayingif it meets all of your rules
and it's somebody's, it's stilla private property type of an
issue.
They own the property and wantto develop it in a certain way
(17:08):
that's in compliance with allthe applicable rules that are
out there.
Then they should be able tomove forward with that and not
have kind of an emotionalreaction that can be
inconsistent.
You know you may have that sortof reaction with one project
and not another and that createsa difference on how you wind up
approaching potentialdevelopments out there.
So I think it was, you know,twofold at least on what they
(17:31):
were doing.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Right?
Well, we certainly love ourland in Montana, so I'm sure
it's going to continue to be acontentious issue until they get
it finalized, even after thenmaybe.
But how would you?
I mean along those lines?
Then you talk about housingwith this bill and it's kind of
the primary focus, one of theprimary focuses.
How would you characterize thehousing situation in Califom and
(17:53):
we've heard, you know, housingshortages.
People can't lack ofaffordability.
But from a professionalstandpoint or from a planner
standpoint, what?
How do you look at it and howwould you communicate that to
say, an outsider?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Well, you know I think we've made advances in
that situation.
You know it wasn't that longago that we had vacancy rates of
less than 1% in the rentalmarket, which is not really a
sustainable type of a thing.
There was a housing study thatwas done through the University
of Montana, I think it was in 22, that said that.
You know, over 10 years weneeded 15,000 housing units in
(18:30):
the flathead just to keep pacewith the growth.
And I think people need tounderstand growth isn't just
somebody moving to town from outof the area, although that's a
component of it, you know.
It's also our kids, you know,graduating from high school and
looking for jobs.
You know there's all sorts ofpeople I know that have got
their kids living in thebasement because even if they
(18:50):
have good jobs here, they can'tafford the bottom of the market,
and that's an issue.
You know, if we want to have asustainable community in the
long term, you want your kids tobe able to grow up and stay
here.
So I think they get into tryingto figure out their budget on
(19:24):
actual construction.
Sometimes they don't happen,but you know there's an
inventory of entitled units thatare out there too, but still
you need to keep pace with that.
You know it's a growingcommunity.
Like I said, even if peoplearen't moving in from out of the
area, it's still a growingcommunity that you need to
account for.
And I think that there's somepent-up demand there as well,
(19:45):
just because our market, ourhousing market, is kind of
outpacing our labor market interms of wages, especially for
people that are getting started,and there's a lot of demand out
there that just can't get intothe bottom of the market.
And so you know we've tried toencourage condominiums in some
situations and you know there'sat least one larger project on
the north end of town that istrying to do just that with the
(20:07):
mixed-use project and doingcondominiums on both ends of the
market so new people can getinto those and it's more
affordable and kind of get theirfoot into the housing market in
terms of ownership.
But also on the back end of themarket, where people are, you
know, aging, they've got thekids moving out, you know don't
necessarily want to have, youknow, a big yard to maintain and
(20:29):
can get into a situation likethat too.
So you know, I think, gettingcreative you know both on, you
know on the city side, but youknow, also on the development
side as to different productsthat are out there.
I think would continue to helpwith that.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So what is the developer appetite for something
like that, the condo type ofsituation?
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I think some are interested in it.
I think that there's somelittle bumps in terms of some of
the legalities out there and itimpacts the financing that they
can get.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And that's had an impact on some of running into
that may limit their ability ortheir desire to build new
housing.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Well, to build new housing in general, you know
it's there's a lot of differentfactors that go in and I think
that that was something thatcame out of the there was a
parent in the housing task forcereport that they did as well,
because you know it's.
You know a component of itwould be, you know, working
through government regulation.
But a big component is cost ofsupplies.
You know, I've known somedevelopers that have just bought
(21:35):
trucks and shipped in suppliesfrom out of state just because
they couldn't get to anythingaffordably in the general area.
Labor supply is a difficultthing.
You know, like I said, even ifwe've got 5,000 housing units
that the city has approved andare sitting there, they just
need to pull a building permitand get going.
There's only so many plumbersand electricians and framers
(21:56):
that you can employ at one time.
So you know the labor market interms of workers, to actually
get out there and construct thebuildings is something that
people need to work through aswell.
Financing rates being higherright now is certainly an issue.
I think it's gotten better.
But going back to supply, youknow, right after COVID there
was especially like withelectrical panels and so forth
(22:19):
there were some major apartmentprojects that got mothballed,
that was halfway underconstruction, got mothballed for
six months just because theycouldn't get electrical panels
in because of the limitationsjust nationwide on what was
going on there.
I've experienced that, okay,yeah, so no surprise for you,
yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Obviously, housing is a big part of any community and
it's been a bit of a pressurepoint in ours.
But transitioning then fromthat to just overall, when you
look at the Flathead now from anindividual, as a citizen as
being from here, but also as acity planner, what does a better
(22:59):
and stronger future for ourcommunity look like?
Speaker 3 (23:02):
for you.
Well, I think the key is youneed to make sure that there's a
place for everyone and I thinkthat you need to make sure that
you provide for a range of needsthat are out there.
You know a full range of.
You know, regardless of whatyour income is, what your age is
, certainly you know creating acommunity where people can age
in place is really vital.
Making sure that you knowaccessibility issues, with ADA
(23:24):
issues, are addressed, but youknow that's part of having a
community is that you know weshould have open arms for
everybody in here and thereshould be a place for them.
You know, certainly housingbeing a major component of that,
but just being part of thecommunity as a whole.
And for me personally, I thinkone of the important things is
you know really.
You know as we get moretechnological and the way that
(23:45):
we live is really as we get moretechnological and the way that
we live, I think preserving anddeveloping personal connections
is really important and I surehope we don't lose sight of that
.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So I love that.
I love the open arms concepttoo.
Welcome everybody in and tryand accommodate everybody as
much as we can.
Well, PJ, we're gonnatransition to our Flathead Five
questions that we ask all ourguests and before I do that,
thank you for being here todayand for sharing so much
information with us.
So these are just rapid firequestions that we'll jump into
(24:16):
and short one word or onesentence answers are fine.
So what's your favorite hiddengem in the community?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I really think it's the people gem in the community.
I really think it's the people.
I just love the fact,especially since I grew up here,
that I can walk down the streetand I can see my old coach or
walk into a bar and bartenderwould have my drink sitting out
before I say anything, andthat's my favorite hidden gem.
Chris or Bobcat this is ridingthe fence, but it's both.
I didn't go to either one.
(24:44):
I had one of my kids go to U ofM and one go to MSU and what I
would love more than anything isfor them both to be undefeated
and go into the Cat Grizz gameand then have the Grizzlies win.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Perfect, all right.
What's your favorite outdooractivity in the Valley?
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Definitely skiing.
You know, since I grew up hereI still call it Big Mountain.
But getting up there on themountain in the winter,
especially on an inversion day,there's nothing like that I
agree with that?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
What do you know today that you wish you knew
when you started out?
Speaker 3 (25:16):
That nobody's perfect and that it's okay to rely on
others, just the same way thatI'd want them to be able to know
they could rely on me.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
That is wisdom right there.
Know they could rely on me.
That is wisdom right there.
So when your story's over thebook is written, what do you
want?
The one or two sentence reviewon your book to be.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I'm hoping that it would say something along the
lines that he was an intelligent, creative thinker who loved his
kids, cared for his friends,acted with integrity and helped
build a better community.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
PJ, again I want to thank you so much for being on
Heart of the Flathead today.
This is obviously a timelyepisode, with the land use plan
process and happening right now,but also just housing and land
in general is a big deal here.
So thank you for sharing somuch information with us and for
taking the time out of yourbusy schedule to be with us
(26:07):
today.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
We really appreciate it.
Yeah, no problem.
And again, I appreciate theopportunity and I think you're
doing a great job with thepodcast.
Thanks, pj, all right.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Thanks for listening to this episode of heart of the
flathead.
We'd love to hear your thoughtsabout today's episode and the
podcast in general.
You can listen atheartoftheflatheadcom or
wherever you listen to podcasts,and you can reach David via the
contact page atheartoftheflatheadcom or by
clicking on the send us feedbacklink at the top of the episode
description and your favoritepodcast app.
(26:39):
Heart of the Flathead isproduced by David Wiginton in
partnership with Left Brain,right Brain Marketing.
Listeners can find the podcastonline at heartoftheflatheadcom
and leftbrainrightbrainmarketingat lbrbmcom.
The content for Heart of theFlathead podcasts and any show
notes and transcripts arecopyrighted by David Wiginton,
(27:02):
all rights reserved.
Reproduction and rebroadcastingin whole or in part is strictly
prohibited without writtenpermission.
Contact David Wiginton atheartoftheflatheadcom with your
request.
The views and opinionsexpressed by guests on this
podcast are their own and do notnecessarily reflect those of
the host or the production team.
Appearance on the show does notconstitute an endorsement of
(27:26):
any goods, services or opinionsdiscussed.
The podcast is forinformational and entertainment
purposes only and should not beconsidered professional legal,
medical or financial advice.
Always consult a qualifiedprofessional before making
decisions based on the contentof this show.
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