January 26, 2021 • 43 mins
When he was 14 years old, Jeremiah Fraites of The Lumineers lost his older brother, Joshua, to a heroin overdose. He describes it as the worst thing to have happened to his family. Years later, Jeremiah is still reflecting on the monumental impact drugs and alcohol have on music, culture, families and relationships. This topic even served as inspiration behind the latest album from his band, titled III.
In this episode of Heart of the Matter, Jeremiah joins Elizabeth Vargas to share his perspective on substance use and to discuss his family’s experiences navigating addiction, giving up alcohol himself and learning to be a rock star without substances.
Related reading
After you listen, explore these resources from Partnership to End Addiction to learn more about the topics and themes discussed in this episode:
- Our latest campaign featuring music from The Lumineers: Start with Connection
- Is substance use a part of "normal" teen behavior?
- Understanding and addressing heroin use
Editor’s Note: The views and opinions expressed on Heart of the Matter are those of the podcast participants and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Partnership to End Addiction. We are also mindful that some of the personal stories feature the word “addict” and other terms from this list. We respect and understand those who choose to use certain terms to express themselves. However, we strive to use language that’s health-oriented, accurately reflects science, promotes evidence-based treatment and demonstrates respect and compassion.
To learn more:
Partnership to End Addiction website
Donate today to help us provide free resources to families
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth Vargas (00:00):
Hello, everyone and welcome to heart of
the matter. I am your host,Elizabeth Vargas. I think
everyone can agree on the powerof music. It can be an
incredible inspiration forpeople a way for people to
connect away for those of us allover the world, all ages, races,
(00:21):
creeds, to really feel similarthoughts and emotions when we
hear a song, and partnership andaddiction when we started a new
campaign this past fall, acampaign about connection is
especially important at the timeof a pandemic, when so many
people are having a hard timeconnecting. We used a song from
(00:43):
the amazingly talented band, TheLumineers, called salt and see,
it's part of an album calledthree from the Lumineers. And
the entire album is dedicated toaddiction, and to recovery, and
to how the disease of addictionand the incredible lasting
(01:07):
impact of that disease canspread throughout an entire
family, often throughgenerations of a family. It is
an amazingly powerful album,there's a whole set of music
videos, that are actually strungtogether and form a movie of
sorts that is, tells a story ofa family all from three, and
(01:29):
it's a really powerful thing towatch, you get a chance to watch
it. Anyway, I had a chance totalk to Jeremiah frates, who is
one of the two leading bandmembers for the Lumineers, the
Grammy nominated band, they'vegot huge international hits like
whoa, hey, and stubborn love.
But they have a following allover the place, and also have
deep personal connections to theissue of addiction. Jeremiah
(01:53):
lost his brother Josh to aheroin overdose when he was a
teenager. Jeremiah himself issober. And today on our podcast,
we talk to Jeremiah about thisextraordinary album three, about
the power of song when it comesto something as catastrophic as
addiction and families and aboutwhat it means to him to be out
(02:19):
there to be on the road to belive on the stage to be creating
music, now newly sober. So Ihope you'll enjoy our podcast
today. And as a reminder, pleasetake a second to subscribe and
rate our podcast if you enjoythe show. Because only with your
support, can we continue totransform the way our country
addresses addiction.
(02:57):
Jeremiah, welcome, thank you somuch for being with us today.
Jeremiah Fraites (03:02):
Thanks for having me.
Elizabeth Vargas (03:03):
And congratulations on a fantastic.
Wow. and powerful, powerfulrecord this whole album, do we
say still say album, by the way?
I guess we don't Yeah,
Jeremiah Fraites (03:15):
but you know, I mean, we, when I say we, I
mean mean West, you know, we've,this is Jeremiah, we we write
all the music together for theLumineers. And we started the
band about 15 years ago. And westill very much pride ourselves
in the album or the LP, which isprobably, like you said, an
antiquated term by now. Butyeah, we're really proud of this
album, I think we think it's ourbest. It's pretty typical, I
(03:37):
think for people to think theirnewest is their best. But we
really, truly do think thatabout this one.
Elizabeth Vargas (03:44):
The entire album called three is, is a
deeply personal and powerfullook at the disease of
addiction, told in threedifferent stories with three
songs to each of those stories.
Tell me about the decision to dothis. You had said that you
wanted to humanize the issue ofaddiction. And you really do it.
(04:04):
I mean, I'm reminded of somebodywho said the question isn't
what's wrong with you? Thequestion is What happened to
you? And you really explore thatin this?
Jeremiah Fraites (04:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And it
was a it was a deeply personalalbum for for me and Wes, for
different reasons. Wes Schultzis the singer and he writes all
the lyrics. And you know, heactually in his own way, his
experience with addiction andexperience with loving someone
that's, that's been goingthrough that and has been going
(04:38):
through that. It's someone thatis an extended in his extended
family and he's seen it sort ofRavage the family and alcohol
it's particularly alcoholismthat has done that and it's made
that person homeless and it'smade that person go into the ER,
dozens if not hundreds of timesliterally. Whether for overdoses
(04:58):
or just blacking out or Being,you know, completely drunk. And
I think it I think for him itwas this very cathartic way to
deal with, you know, how do you?
How do you deal with somebody inyour family that you love, and
to watch them go through that.
And for me, it brought up a lotof stuff. Because when I was, I
(05:22):
think about 14 years old, myolder brother, Joshua, he was
19, he died of a heroin, drugoverdose. So when that happened,
you know, that was the worstthing that's ever happened to me
in my family. That was myparents firstborn. It was my
only sibling, my older brother.
And, you know, a lot of theselyrics, a lot of the songs about
addiction, whether it's heroin,whether it's, you know, crack or
(05:42):
alcohol or any addiction forthat matter. It ravages the
family. And, you know, it reallydoes terrible things. So,
there's a lot of crossover inpeople's experiences when when
talking about addiction, and howpeople are affected by that. And
oh, yeah,
Elizabeth Vargas (06:03):
you likened it to the effect of a radiation
bomb in a family. And I reallyactually thought that was that
was true.
Jeremiah Fraites (06:10):
So yeah, Wes writes all the lyrics. And Wes,
and his, one of our buddies,this guy, Nick Bell, I think
they sort of started to slowlydevelop this idea of three
chapters in three differentcharacters, and sort of look at
how intergenerationallyaddiction get passed on from
Mother, father to daughter, son,siblings, of course, and I think
(06:32):
looking at that, and thatthrough that scope, again, like
I said, really helped him dealwith his, you know, deal with in
a cathartic way, through musicand through art, which I think
is really healthy, that we havethat outlet, and that we have
that ability to, you know, totake those terrible feelings and
take those terrible thoughts andactually put them into some sort
(06:55):
of magical spiritual, mediumthat is music.
Elizabeth Vargas (07:00):
We know the numbers are unbelievably
staggering. There are 10s ofmillions of people who are
suffering from some sort ofsubstance abuse disorder. We
know that one in three adults,however, believe that opioid
addiction is a moral failing.
And that stigma presentprevented 41% of people who need
help from getting help. Are youguys hoping to humanize this
(07:25):
bite by showing the stories byshowing the heart ache, the
heartbreak that inevitably sortof, you know, is shot through
any family with this issue?
Jeremiah Fraites (07:41):
I think, I think less than some sort of
moral soapbox. I don't do drugs,because I mean, that was told to
all of us, particularly growingup in New Jersey, there was this
program called the dare program.
I don't know if that right.
Elizabeth Vargas (07:54):
Yeah, I don't know.
Jeremiah Fraites (07:56):
A lot of good that did. It's funny, too funny.
In the dark, sad sense. That wewere we grew up in Bergen
County, in small town Rams. InNew Jersey, there was a lot of
kids our age, lot of peersafflicted with opioid addiction.
And when my brother died, itobviously felt like a tragedy.
(08:20):
And it was a tragedy. About 1015years later, I heard the
statistics and they're sostaggering that it gave me
comfort in some weird, twistedsense, because there were so
many people that had died fromit. And I don't know if comfort
is the right word, but it wasthis, you know, just this
(08:42):
feeling of like, oh, wow, Iwasn't the only one I felt
connected to 1000s if notprobably millions of other
people that are all goingthrough that or have gone
through that.
Elizabeth Vargas (08:51):
You were very close to your big brother.
Growing up. Did you know he hadan issue the serious I mean,
when How old were you when yourealized that he's a real
problem?
Jeremiah Fraites (09:05):
I think that I realized that he had a real
problem. I probably aboutprobably about nine, nine months
before he died. Mm hmm. And thenonly sad to say only when he
died. I really, really realizedI was so young, you know, I
(09:26):
think I was I think it was 2001when he died. I was born in 86.
So I think I was either 14 or15. Maybe having just turned 15
when he died. And I remember hedied. I think it was Sunday, May
27 2001. I think that was thedate. I remember his memorial
(09:47):
day weekend. And I remember thelast time that I had seen him
prior to that was sometime inOctober. So why no yeah, rewind
from May 27 to probably aroundOctober I was in high school and
Ramsey and I remember my mom,she woke me up for school. And
(10:07):
she said something like, honey,you know, sweetie, your brother
was arrested last night. He hewas driving. He was parked in a
car at an a&p. On the eastcoast. There are these grocery
stores called a&p. And he wasparked in the a&p parking lot. I
(10:27):
think it was like two or threein the morning and a police
officer, you know, tapped on hiswindow, and I think said like,
you know, what are you doing,and I think he said some of the
effect of like, I'm gonna gocrash my car on the highway, and
he was apparently high on PCP, Ibelieve. And he had gone into
the grocery store because he ranout of drugs. And I think he was
(10:47):
high on PCP. And I think he hadingested some drainage, you
know, the stuff you'd use toclean your sink, and toilets and
whatever for the drains. So hewent, yeah, he went to the ICU,
somewhere in hospital in NewJersey, I think was second and
third degree burns on his throatand esophagus. And, but I was so
(11:10):
young, I knew I didn't even knowif I knew all the grisly
details. At that moment. I justknew he got arrested. And even
months or year or years, Iforget before that, when he
first got in trouble at the highschool for weed. I remember I
laughed because I was like, Whogives a shit? I even in my young
(11:30):
age, I was like, it's just weed.
I don't know what happened tothem. And in between A and B,
something happened. And Iremember mainhand both played
soccer growing up. And Iremember he did something to his
knee. he injured his knee. Andhe got prescribed Percocet. And
that was it. The Percocet. Hefell in love with he saved them,
he would abuse them. And thateventually led to heroin. So you
(11:53):
know, it's sort of a it's aslow, I don't know, it's a slow
burn. It's a slow, step by stepprocess to get from A to Z, or
eight at step eight A B. And,yeah,
Elizabeth Vargas (12:10):
why haven't you seen him since October?
Jeremiah Fraites (12:13):
So I think in October, he essentially got
arrested, went into thehospital, I think he went into
an inpatient rehab. And then myparents tried the tough love
approach where they wanted to, Ithink they basically said no
drugs in the house, and youknow, or you can live with us as
(12:34):
long as you're sober. I think itwas something to that effect.
And he went to go live with hisgrandma or grandpa, my grandma
or our grandmother who went togo live live with my grandmother
was the one that found him onthat day. She, you know, my poor
Granny, she's she, she died, Ithink four or five years ago.
(12:54):
But she went through a lotdiscovering him and she went to
church that morning. And I thinkshe came back around 11 or 12,
and caught up to him and thoughthe was sleeping. She went up
there and, you know, touched hisleg and it was cold as ice. And
then she called our house. And Iremember I was on the pick up
the phone. And I remember shewas pretty hysterical. And I
(13:17):
remember, I thought somethingwas happening to her. I thought
she was having a heart attack tobe honest or something that
something was thought she was ingrave danger. Nothing to do with
my brother. Because in myyouthfulness and my ignorance
and my naivete, or naivenaiveness naivete, How the hell
do you say that word?
Elizabeth Vargas (13:36):
He got it.
Jeremiah Fraites (13:38):
In that state, I always told myself may have
even said it out loud once ortwice, I always thought or told
myself, this is something we'lllaugh about, at some point. This
is something and I don't knowwhy I thought I just thought
this is something we'll get overtogether, he'll get over it. I
(13:58):
never thought to go see him.
Because I never thought anythinglike that would happen. I don't
think anybody expects it tohappen. Obviously, you know, if
this was happening now, and youknow, 34 he was, I guess 37 or
38. Obviously, I'd be much moreinvolved and have a much greater
understanding. But it'sunfortunate, you know, you learn
(14:20):
so much about addiction. Onlyafter the fact. And then you
have all these skills that arein vain or you have you have all
this knowledge, it's in vain orsomething and I really love this
guy, Gabor Mata, he's I thinkhe's a genius. And he Yeah, he
talks a lot about addiction andrecovery. And I really think he
has said some of the mostprofound stuff I've ever read on
(14:42):
the on the subject and I lovehis simple, profound question of
not why the addiction, but whythe pain, you know, like he
talks about, like, a deck ofplaying cards, and cocaine that,
you know, arguably or you know,Potential there's nothing
innately addictive about eitherbut someone can sit down and get
(15:04):
heavily addicted to gambling andplaying cards. Now the person's
you know, can be a piece of cakecan be cocaine it can be now it
can be alcohol can be this orthat. So, yeah, not why the
addiction, but why the pain andI think that's really a really
profound way to look at it.
Elizabeth Vargas (15:21):
It's a very common thing, a lot of people in
recovery, talk about the factthat they used that substance,
whatever it was alcohol ordrugs, to feel normal to, to
finally feel comfortable. Andfinally feel like you could live
in that in your own skin. Youknow, it's a very, very common
(15:43):
thing you had said, after hisdeath, that the grief was so
intense, and so immense, andjust relentless and just
infinite. I imagine it'ssomething that lives with you
forever. Really?
Jeremiah Fraites (15:59):
Yeah, it's something where it's something
where it's about a million milesburied at all times. And it's
also where it's like, rightunderneath the skin. And you
know, you could be listening toa piece of music or watching a
scene from a movie. Andsometimes it's a scene from a
(16:20):
movie that's not even related tobrothers or something and just
like, can make me cry, or thinkof him in a profound way. And
then, there's other times whentalking to you right now it
feels like talkable, or it feelsdoable to talk about it. And I
think it used to feel more likeanniversaries, whether his
(16:42):
birthday or the anniversary ofhis death, or the holidays are
always very difficult. Now, oneis not necessarily harder than
the other one isn't necessarilyeasier than the other. I just
think as time passes on, I guessI'll be going on 20 years now
coming up, which is crazy. Andyeah, at the time, it was
(17:04):
terrible. And you know, firsteven 10 years, it really was
constant, it felt like, and thenit never really goes away. You
can talk about it, you canfigure out some things, some
aspects about it, you can makeit easier, better digest it
more, those types of things, butit never really goes away.
(17:25):
Perhaps that's a good thing. Youknow, I love the idea that I
just saw this, this show. It's avery dark show. It's called Mr.
Mercedes. And it's a fantasticshow. It's adapted from a
Stephen King novel. And I thinkthe psychotic killer in the show
talks about this idea that youyou die twice. And I'm sure
(17:46):
that's from something else.
Somebody else probably wrotethat whether Stephen King wrote
that, whoever, but this ideathat people die twice, the first
time you die, you know,literally your body stops and
your brain shuts down. And thenthe second time is the last time
someone mentions your name. And,you know, the idea that we're
triggered to remember terriblethings. So well. Unfortunately,
(18:07):
for better for worse, weremember these things. So well.
Perhaps, that gives us reason totalk about these these people
still so that's a I guess, asilver lining to it.
Elizabeth Vargas (18:22):
It's interesting, Stephen King came
up with that idea. He's inlongtime recovery himself. Yeah,
I've
Jeremiah Fraites (18:29):
read some pretty crazy stories about him
like waking up out of a stuporin his office like paper strewn
about and I'm a bloody nose. I'mdoing so much cocaine and beer
bottles everywhere. And youknow, it's, it doesn't help when
people like him and KeithRichards are so profound and so
talented. It doesn't help debunkthe the culture that you know,
(18:55):
be me being a musician. Isn't Ijust celebrated five years of
sobriety. Thank you on August27 27, seems to be a profound
number in my life. 27 was theday my brother died and then 27
August and then April 27, myson's birthday. Wow. Yeah, it's
(19:20):
pretty wild. Um, but, you know,Stephen King been in recovery.
And Keith Richards probably notbeen in recovery. But it doesn't
help debunk the myth that peoplelike that have inadvertently or
advertently provided so manymillions of people to look up to
when you're 17 1819. You'relike, yeah, that guy does.
(19:41):
heroin. He does coke or hedrinks and he's wrote, you know,
he's written all these novels,or he's in the Rolling Stones.
And I think that's bad for forkids and teenagers, even adults
to sort of like, Oh, well,there's a correlation, you know,
and there's so many amazingbands and people that have died.
Directly or indirectly fromdrugs. I mean, the list is just
(20:05):
so immense you have, you know,Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison,
john Bonham, the drummer ofzeplin drank himself to death
and Elvis and you know, allthese people. The list literally
is, you know, Prince and ChrisCornell and the Lincoln Park
singer Chester, so many peoplehave committed suicide or died
(20:27):
from heavy, heavy drug use. AndI think that doesn't help
debunk. And I think that'ssomething that I think for me
being sober, it's showing methat it's possible to be sober,
I think it's showing me thatit's possible still to be
creative, sober, I think thatthis album three is the best
album I've ever been a part ofmusically, and creatively. And I
(20:50):
did all that sober, because fiveyears ago, I became sober. And
in that time, we wrote all themusic together. And, you know,
my thing was alcohol. It wassomething that I think, just
from touring so much, we sort oftalked ourselves into the
ground, I think, part of theculture, right? It's big time,
part of the culture. And, youknow, it's fun, and it's cool in
(21:12):
the beginning, and then it justbecomes tight. It's just so
tired. And you know, thatclassic your, what is it? sick
of being tired and tired ofbeing sick and sick and tired of
being sick and tired? And, youknow, it's really rings true,
and it is true. And when I firstyou know, gave up alcohol,
(21:37):
somebody told me, you're goingto feel so much more connected
to music, and you're going tolove to be creative, and you're
going to be it's going to be somuch better. And I thought what
a load of bullshit. I really didnot. You know, I really didn't
think that was going to be true.
And now I you know, only throughtried and tested, like actually
(21:58):
going through it. I feel likeI've become more connected with
music more connected with mycreativity,
Elizabeth Vargas (22:06):
the culture, the glamorization of it. I mean,
whether it's even back ErnestHemingway, sort of the image of
the inebriated genius writing orcreating, you know, while under
the influence, when nobody elseis writing about is when that
inebriated genius wakes up thenext morning, shaky and nauseous
and Hanover.
Jeremiah Fraites (22:25):
Yeah, yeah, Charles Murkowski. He comes to
mind too. And I mean, CharlesMcCaskey, he was a huge, you
know, still is but as a huge,like, influence on me to where I
really loved his writing. And Iloved Yeah, the genius drunk,
and he's writing and he'ssmoking and you know, this or
that, and, ya know, nobody talksabout the next morning. It's
(22:46):
true, right?
Elizabeth Vargas (22:47):
You mentioned you were sick and tired of being
sick and tired. Why exactly didyou decide to get sober five
years ago?
Jeremiah Fraites (22:55):
I think for me, I realized, I guess I was. I
don't know how I guess I'm 34, Iguess I was 29, I probably
realized around 27, that Ishould probably stop or try to
limit it. And in between 27 and29, I tried to limit it. And I
(23:15):
never drank in the morning, itwasn't, you know, I was very
functional. And I don't evenknow if I would necessarily even
call myself an alcoholic. But Iwas very, you know, functional,
what I could do. I couldperform. I could be a husband
wasn't like, stealing money ordoing absurd things. And I think
(23:37):
in my mind, I was like, Well,I'm not hurting anybody. I'm
just, you know, mostly I'm ontour. And this helps me go to
sleep, or this helps me escapethe harsh realities of touring
for three and a half yearsstraight, essentially, on the
first album, and things likethat. So probably around 27, I
realized and then 29 I justremember I, you know, woke up
(24:02):
one day, and it was like,probably the little voice inside
my head for two years. had aconversation with my wife. I
remember. We were actually inthe studio, believe it or not
making our second album calledCleopatra, we were making it in
New York State. Mm hmm. And Icalled my wife and she just
asked me how you doing? And thenI probably lied and said, I'm
(24:23):
fine. And then, you know, sheprobably said like, how are you
doing again? And when do youtypically ask someone how
they're doing the second timeyou get the real answer. And I
think it all just kind ofspilled out. Like I think I just
said I'm sick of this. I'm notreally you know, I'm sorry. This
is probably a lot to take. Butyou know, I feel like I do have
a bit of a I don't know yeah,problem. I want to I want to
(24:48):
stop this and it was a really,really difficult time for sure.
It was a terrible time to tocome to grips with that. And I
think that you No, just to giveit up cold turkey, I had no
withdrawal symptoms, if thatgives any indication of like,
how much I was drinking, itwasn't like I was shaking or had
(25:10):
night sweats or, you know,hallucinate hallucinations or
anything like that. But um,yeah, I think it was almost easy
the first even three months orsix months, and then, you know,
as time where time went on, itbecame difficult, but then
there's just little subtle,sometimes it's gigantic shifts
(25:31):
in what you do. And sometimesit's subtle shifts, I mean,
maybe I gigantic slash subtleshift was just like, leaving
places earlier, maybe leavingthe bar, still being able to go
to bar, but maybe leaving at 945instead of 145. You know, and
just realizing like, nothingproductive or good has ever
happened between 2am and 6am.
ever in the history of mankind,you know, unless you're jet
(25:56):
lagged, like, if you're doinglike, anything between 2am and
6am, still awake, it's probablysomething not good. And I think,
you know, being married andwanting to have a family and all
that, I think it was just, youknow, to get my shit together,
especially before having ourbeautiful son, who's now two and
a half, it's like, it makes alot of sense. And I'm really
(26:19):
thankful that that was my path.
I think it shows you too, that,you know, maybe someone's
listening to this right now andthinking, Wow, what an asshole,
you know, this guy's olderbrother died of drugs. And he
still had the tenacity, of thearrogance of the boldness to,
to, to drink. And I've thoughtabout that myself. And I think
(26:41):
that kind of shows you the powerof I don't know, you can, you
can still witness something soterrible in your own family, and
still be drawn to this to thisthing. inadvertently, it's you
never wake up one day and you'relike, I want to fuck up my life.
I want to, you know, I want Iwant to wake up in 10 years and
feel miserable every day. Nobodyever consciously says that. So I
(27:03):
think what we're talking aboutis really powerful, and how
profound addiction and you know,what it can do to someone's
brain. So
Elizabeth Vargas (27:15):
no, I, I, you know, I wrote a book about my
recovery. And I wrote in thebook, no little girl ever lies
awake in bed and says, When Igrow up, I want to be an
alcoholic. And no woman wakes upin the morning and says, today's
a great day to go get a drinkmyself unconscious and have to
go to the emergency room. Nobodyplans to do this.
Jeremiah Fraites (27:36):
I asked was that your Was that your drug or
drink of choice was alcohol.
Elizabeth Vargas (27:41):
Alcohol was my Yeah, was alcohol. And I didn't
start drinking until later inlife, you know, it all. This
disease takes many paths. Ireally didn't start drinking
until I was in my 20s. And intelevision news, it's another
industry where there's a lot ofhigh, you know, high pressure
live TV, everybody trips to thebar afterwards. It's sort of
(28:03):
everybody drinks. And sure,
Jeremiah Fraites (28:06):
nobody's ever like Yeah. Do you want a glass
of water with lemon? Or do youwant a salad? Or? Like, what
some fresh squeezed juice? It'snever. Yes. So part of the
culture, and it doesn't, it'snot just music, and it's it's
funny. I mean, it's also on thejob drinking, you know, at least
for musician, it's like, if youwere a teacher, and you were
drinking, you would be fired andasked from the community and
(28:29):
it'd be like, you know, canceledall over social media. Musicians
drinking or using drugs, whilelike actually literally during
the work. It's, it's fine. It'swhatever, it's actually, you
know, it's part of it. And yeah,it's dangerous. And then at the
end, it's just kind of boring.
That's how I kind of feel. Idon't, I don't feel like I'm on
(28:49):
some sort of pedestal ever. Inever have. I don't think I ever
will. But I think just for me.
Yeah, I don't know. It justshifted a big shift for me in my
thinking.
Elizabeth Vargas (29:02):
I was struck by the lyrics to the song Gloria
from this album. GLORIA I smellit on your breath. GLORIA booze
and peppermint. GLORIA No onesaid enough is enough. GLORIA
they found you on the floor.
GLORIA My hand was tied toyours. GLORIA Did you finally
see that enough? is enough? Thatwas really I really connected
with that.
Jeremiah Fraites (29:26):
I think that um, you know, that's one of the
West is great. Down talents isthat I think the peppermint was
the key for me, I think, youknow, talking about addiction. I
think when you're talking aboutlove when you're talking about a
big open ended. Grand subject,you almost have to find
(29:48):
something specific to tease outthe humanity I think, and I
think when he said thepeppermint on the breath, it
just, it was like this reallyrandom lyric that I wasn't even
sure I was sort of like on it'scool like peppermint. It's not
really like a musical wordpeppermint. But then it just
(30:08):
really grew on me. And Ithought, Wow, what a What a cool
novel idea to like to use that,in the words. And I think that,
Elizabeth Vargas (30:16):
well, it shows her effort to disguise it.
Unknown (30:18):
Yeah,
Elizabeth Vargas (30:19):
peppermint so that nobody will smell the
alcohol. And it's
Jeremiah Fraites (30:21):
like, yeah, like this miniscule aspect,
almost like a pixel, a part of alarger frame that, how do you
talk about something so big, butyou pick some random, miniscule
aspect of it, you tease thatout? And then, yeah, masking the
breath. Peppermint. Doesn't haveto be like, you're a drunk, and
you're always in rehab, and, youknow, these, you know, heavy
handed lyrics or something. It'sso it was oddly beautiful in
(30:43):
that regard. And I think that,when I remember when we first
when we were writing this albumtogether, he kept coming in with
lyrics akin to that, you know,there's two songs in the album
that are heavily about thisperson, Gloria's one, obviously,
and the second is leader of thelandslide. Leader of landslide
might be one of my favoritesongs that we've ever written
together. And again, it's verymuch heavily about this person.
(31:07):
And, and then, I brought themusic into the song called Donna
and I brought in a couple lyricsand showed him and you know, he
has an another lyric and Donna,like, you can sober up enough to
hold the baby. I was thinkinglike, oh, man, like, this whole
album is so heavy. It's allabout this person and drinking.
(31:31):
You know, I remember saying tohim, I said, I think we should,
can we just like, take a walkaround the block? You know, can
we take a walk, and I was like,I think it's, I think it's
important to sing about thisstuff. But it was definitely a
moment where I said to him, youknow, this is bringing up a lot
of a lot of stuff for me to thisis bringing up a lot of shit,
like, trudging up the past andbringing up a lot of memories
(31:54):
that I thought were dormant oreven extinct, in my own family
and in my own inner relationshipwith it. So it was a really
great heart to heart, verycandid conversation to have
about that. Because, you know,it was just, it wasn't like,
Hey, don't sing about thisstuff, either. I just need you
to know that this is what'sgoing on with me with it. And,
(32:17):
you know, when we when wefinished the album, and Kevin
Phillips, the amazing directorthat did all the music videos,
he you know, he had, he had thetall task of doing all the music
videos, so that they weaved into each other. But also, if you
saw one as a standalone, itwould still sort of make sense
or be that be like powerful andpoetic and its own its own good
(32:40):
regard. And the glory of videois very intense. If anybody
hasn't seen it, I would suggestchecking it out. If I like song,
it's very thing
Elizabeth Vargas (32:51):
as intense though. They're all and i think
you know, what's so powerfulabout them, as you see and hear,
hear through the music and seethrough the series of music
videos, which together form whata 40 minute Mini Movie, in
essence, you really see what yourefer to and we were talking
(33:13):
about at the beginning of thisinterview that how much it's
like a nuclear bomb and afamily. Yeah, I would rip
ripples out and affectseverybody, not just that night,
or that week. But that year andthat general you know, that
decade, that generation and howit's passed down. It's such a
(33:34):
profound tragedy what thisdisease does to families and you
have written about it and youshow it so beautifully in the
songs and yes, in those videosthat were made to form this sort
of Mini Movie.
Jeremiah Fraites (33:48):
Yeah, I mean, I watched the miniseries
Chernobyl on HBO and just Yeah,that's great. Wasn't I was so
stunning and sad and reallyprofound in a, you know, awesome
in the sense of catastrophic Leeterrible how, like, the awesome
(34:10):
power of what uranium or theradiation would do to the
community and stuff and it justwas so and yeah, I guess
similarly, with addiction. Itjust really seems to ring true
in that same regard.
Elizabeth Vargas (34:22):
Well, in in Chernobyl, that entire, you
know, hundreds of square milesif not 1000s of square miles are
sealed off and shut down likethe the ground has been
poisoned. The air has beenpoisoned to the trees,
everything that lives therewater poison. Yeah. And and, I
mean, poison might be the wrongword to use when it comes to
(34:43):
addiction, but impacted mostcertainly.
Jeremiah Fraites (34:47):
Yeah. No, it's true. You know, we
Elizabeth Vargas (34:49):
used the song Salton Sea for Partnership to
End addiction, our campaignThank you. First of all, it's an
incredible campaign and yoursong really makes it
Jeremiah Fraites (35:06):
super easy to put to the animation and stuff.
It was really.
Elizabeth Vargas (35:10):
And it's all about connection, which is the
key to, to fighting the diseaseof addiction. And I'm struck by
the refrain in the song all thatyou suffered all the disease,
you couldn't hide it, hide itfrom me. Somebody always does
see, I mean, no matter how muchwe, you know, in the grips of
the disease may try and hide it,or keep it a secret, it leaves
(35:34):
out.
Jeremiah Fraites (35:35):
It's true. And I think that, potentially, it
leaks out or it seeps out inthese different ways. Because I
think the person suffering wantsto be found wants to be heard
wants to be discovered, I thinkeven in deep down if they don't
think they want to, or they sayright out loud, that they don't
want to, I think deep down, theywant to be discovered have the
(35:58):
secret. Like I alluded tobefore, when I was 27, I think
there was a part of me, Ithought, well, somebody's just
probably gonna, like, almostmake this decision for me. And I
remember, it was funny when Iwas stopped drinking, that is
when I was probably 17 1819. Ilooked up to people that or I
(36:19):
was in, I don't know what theright word is a phrase
influenced, inspired by, youknow, fallen, again, 17 1819
years old fallen into that trapof being like the glamorization
of drinking and drug use. Andthen it sort of flipped, where,
when I started to become sober,it was looking to the opposite,
where, you know, even the actorBradley Cooper, I remember, I
(36:42):
think he became sober at thesame time at 29. And he said
something, something to theeffect of, I think I've had
enough beer, you know, for alifetime. And I was like, wow, I
feel the same exact way. But Ijust needed a couple more years
to like,
Elizabeth Vargas (37:00):
make sure yeah, just to be like,
Jeremiah Fraites (37:03):
Am I sure, you know, and sort of wrestle with
it and try to what's that wordlike bargain a lot of bargaining
is I'm sure, you know, a lot ofbargain and being like, well,
and I remember even in that twoyear period, like not drinking
for a month, and then beinglike, Oh, that was your notching
for two months, and then comingback with a vengeance, you know,
(37:24):
just these little things thatwhen you look back, you're like,
there's not enough bargaining inthe world.
Elizabeth Vargas (37:30):
Do you think by writing these songs, making
this album doing this tour,hopefully starting back up when
the panda finally ends? Do youthink that you're encouraging
people to not just address itperhaps in their own lives? But
helping chip away at thatstigma? Because I know you were
(37:50):
talking about the whole, youknow, how you felt hearing about
other people who had lost asibling to drug addiction and
how your reaction was out? I'mnot alone. I'm not the only
person carrying thisexcruciating burden of grief. Do
you think that by writing thesesongs and, and making this album
(38:13):
and doing this tour and makingthis incredible, like movie of
music videos that that go alongwith that, that you're not only
going to help people feel lessalone, but perhaps chip away a
tiny bit at the stigma? Becausewe know we're not alone?
Jeremiah Fraites (38:29):
I mean, I think that's a great points, I
think, I hope so I think thatultimately, you make something.
And I've heard West say this,and I think it's really wise, I
think like the idea that you'renot so much prescribing
something, but you're describingsomething, I think in you know,
through his lyrics of describingthe situations in the way that
people and then through my ownpersonal story of kind of
(38:51):
revealing intimate details of myown sobriety and the intimacy of
like, you know, coming to gripswith being a sober artist, I can
still be prolific and stillcreate and stuff. Yeah, I hope
so. I don't think I consciouslythink well, I'm gonna tell my
story. So X, Y, and Z happen,but the way you just phrased it
was, was pretty cool. was, washealthy, you know, it's like a
(39:15):
noble, a noble cause a nobleendeavor, I think that maybe
somebody that's 15 or 19, oreven 24, maybe they, you know,
hear this and hear me talk aboutit, and maybe they're on the
verge of going through, youknow, maybe I can or maybe
anybody any of us can save, youknow, 10 years of sadness and
(39:36):
help them skip a few steps andnot have to go down. Because,
you know, for me, it probablyjust took that extra two years
where I was like, Oh, let mesee, maybe it's maybe I am, you
know, maybe I'm fine. And, youknow, two years I could add two
years back and started two yearshad seven years of sobriety
instead of five. But it's easiersaid than done. So yeah, I think
(39:59):
if something good Long storyshort, something good comes
from, from all this for otherpeople. And some of those
connections, you know, you'llnever actually see you never
actually meet. But I realized Ithink a light bulb went off in
my head where I realized a lotof my favorite artists are. It's
like they open up the pages oftheir diary. Even like someone
(40:21):
like the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
I mean, they're just so openabout their heroin, drug
addictions, and they lost a bandmember, and they lost so much.
And they gained so much throughtheir storytelling and gained so
much through their brutalhonesty. I think that's really
beautiful. And that is inspiringmore so than a drunk writer at
midnight smoking and waking upshaking the next morning, so
Elizabeth Vargas (40:46):
Well, no, it's it's like that line, booze and
peppermint. You know, in thosethree words, you realize that is
written by somebody who has beenthere, because that I know
exactly what that's about. It'sabout drinking secret drinking
and in futilely trying to coverit up. And immediately followed
(41:09):
with that is the realizationsomebody else has been in that
exact position. And I'm notalone. And that's the key is
sometimes that's the first stepin recovery, whether it's for
the person who's, you know,using drugs or alcohol in an
unhealthy way, or the peoplearound them who are affected by
that issue, to realize you'renot alone. And then you can take
(41:34):
that next step, perhaps and askfor help. And that's, you know,
that's the key. It's
Jeremiah Fraites (41:39):
true. It's true.
Elizabeth Vargas (41:40):
So well, thank you so much. It was great to
talk to you. Thank you forshowing everybody that you can
be sober and be super cool. Youare.
Jeremiah Fraites (41:50):
Now Thanks a lot. It means a lot. And yeah,
anytime we get to talk aboutthis sort of thing, it's, it's
not always easy just to like,you know, open up about it, but
you're easy to talk to about it.
So thanks for, for being likethat. And yeah, I don't know.
This is not something we alwaysget to do. So it's super cool.
(42:12):
For me, a lot of the questionsare typically about,
specifically about the songs orabout upcoming tour or promoting
something that we're doing. Andyeah, so thank you for that.
Elizabeth Vargas (42:24):
Well, thank you. We really appreciate it. We
look forward to seeing you whenthe pandemic lifts back on that
stage in those arenas.
Jeremiah Fraites (42:31):
Yeah. Thanks a lot.
Elizabeth Vargas (42:33):
All right. All right. Take care. Thanks,
Jeremiah.
Jeremiah Fraites (42:36):
All right.
Thank you.
Elizabeth Vargas (42:39):
Thank you so much for listening to our talk
with Jeremiah today. His newsolo album Piano Piano is
available now and I encourageyou to listen to it when you
can. And you can find thispodcast on Apple podcasts,
Spotify, and our website at drugfree.org slash podcast. As a
reminder, if you need help witha loved one who's struggling
with substance use, you can text55753 or visit drug free.org.
(43:04):
And we'll talk to you soon
Hello, everyone and welcome to heart of
the matter. I am your host,Elizabeth Vargas. I think
everyone can agree on the powerof music. It can be an
incredible inspiration forpeople a way for people to
connect away for those of us allover the world, all ages, races,
(00:21):
creeds, to really feel similarthoughts and emotions when we
hear a song, and partnership andaddiction when we started a new
campaign this past fall, acampaign about connection is
especially important at the timeof a pandemic, when so many
people are having a hard timeconnecting. We used a song from
(00:43):
the amazingly talented band, TheLumineers, called salt and see,
it's part of an album calledthree from the Lumineers. And
the entire album is dedicated toaddiction, and to recovery, and
to how the disease of addictionand the incredible lasting
(01:07):
impact of that disease canspread throughout an entire
family, often throughgenerations of a family. It is
an amazingly powerful album,there's a whole set of music
videos, that are actually strungtogether and form a movie of
sorts that is, tells a story ofa family all from three, and
(01:29):
it's a really powerful thing towatch, you get a chance to watch
it. Anyway, I had a chance totalk to Jeremiah frates, who is
one of the two leading bandmembers for the Lumineers, the
Grammy nominated band, they'vegot huge international hits like
whoa, hey, and stubborn love.
But they have a following allover the place, and also have
deep personal connections to theissue of addiction. Jeremiah
(01:53):
lost his brother Josh to aheroin overdose when he was a
teenager. Jeremiah himself issober. And today on our podcast,
we talk to Jeremiah about thisextraordinary album three, about
the power of song when it comesto something as catastrophic as
addiction and families and aboutwhat it means to him to be out
(02:19):
there to be on the road to belive on the stage to be creating
music, now newly sober. So Ihope you'll enjoy our podcast
today. And as a reminder, pleasetake a second to subscribe and
rate our podcast if you enjoythe show. Because only with your
support, can we continue totransform the way our country
addresses addiction.
(02:57):
Jeremiah, welcome, thank you somuch for being with us today.
Jeremiah Fraites (03:02):
Thanks for having me.
Elizabeth Vargas (03:03):
And congratulations on a fantastic.
Wow. and powerful, powerfulrecord this whole album, do we
say still say album, by the way?
I guess we don't Yeah,
Jeremiah Fraites (03:15):
but you know, I mean, we, when I say we, I
mean mean West, you know, we've,this is Jeremiah, we we write
all the music together for theLumineers. And we started the
band about 15 years ago. And westill very much pride ourselves
in the album or the LP, which isprobably, like you said, an
antiquated term by now. Butyeah, we're really proud of this
album, I think we think it's ourbest. It's pretty typical, I
(03:37):
think for people to think theirnewest is their best. But we
really, truly do think thatabout this one.
Elizabeth Vargas (03:44):
The entire album called three is, is a
deeply personal and powerfullook at the disease of
addiction, told in threedifferent stories with three
songs to each of those stories.
Tell me about the decision to dothis. You had said that you
wanted to humanize the issue ofaddiction. And you really do it.
(04:04):
I mean, I'm reminded of somebodywho said the question isn't
what's wrong with you? Thequestion is What happened to
you? And you really explore thatin this?
Jeremiah Fraites (04:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And it
was a it was a deeply personalalbum for for me and Wes, for
different reasons. Wes Schultzis the singer and he writes all
the lyrics. And you know, heactually in his own way, his
experience with addiction andexperience with loving someone
that's, that's been goingthrough that and has been going
(04:38):
through that. It's someone thatis an extended in his extended
family and he's seen it sort ofRavage the family and alcohol
it's particularly alcoholismthat has done that and it's made
that person homeless and it'smade that person go into the ER,
dozens if not hundreds of timesliterally. Whether for overdoses
(04:58):
or just blacking out or Being,you know, completely drunk. And
I think it I think for him itwas this very cathartic way to
deal with, you know, how do you?
How do you deal with somebody inyour family that you love, and
to watch them go through that.
And for me, it brought up a lotof stuff. Because when I was, I
(05:22):
think about 14 years old, myolder brother, Joshua, he was
19, he died of a heroin, drugoverdose. So when that happened,
you know, that was the worstthing that's ever happened to me
in my family. That was myparents firstborn. It was my
only sibling, my older brother.
And, you know, a lot of theselyrics, a lot of the songs about
addiction, whether it's heroin,whether it's, you know, crack or
(05:42):
alcohol or any addiction forthat matter. It ravages the
family. And, you know, it reallydoes terrible things. So,
there's a lot of crossover inpeople's experiences when when
talking about addiction, and howpeople are affected by that. And
oh, yeah,
Elizabeth Vargas (06:03):
you likened it to the effect of a radiation
bomb in a family. And I reallyactually thought that was that
was true.
Jeremiah Fraites (06:10):
So yeah, Wes writes all the lyrics. And Wes,
and his, one of our buddies,this guy, Nick Bell, I think
they sort of started to slowlydevelop this idea of three
chapters in three differentcharacters, and sort of look at
how intergenerationallyaddiction get passed on from
Mother, father to daughter, son,siblings, of course, and I think
(06:32):
looking at that, and thatthrough that scope, again, like
I said, really helped him dealwith his, you know, deal with in
a cathartic way, through musicand through art, which I think
is really healthy, that we havethat outlet, and that we have
that ability to, you know, totake those terrible feelings and
take those terrible thoughts andactually put them into some sort
(06:55):
of magical spiritual, mediumthat is music.
Elizabeth Vargas (07:00):
We know the numbers are unbelievably
staggering. There are 10s ofmillions of people who are
suffering from some sort ofsubstance abuse disorder. We
know that one in three adults,however, believe that opioid
addiction is a moral failing.
And that stigma presentprevented 41% of people who need
help from getting help. Are youguys hoping to humanize this
(07:25):
bite by showing the stories byshowing the heart ache, the
heartbreak that inevitably sortof, you know, is shot through
any family with this issue?
Jeremiah Fraites (07:41):
I think, I think less than some sort of
moral soapbox. I don't do drugs,because I mean, that was told to
all of us, particularly growingup in New Jersey, there was this
program called the dare program.
I don't know if that right.
Elizabeth Vargas (07:54):
Yeah, I don't know.
Jeremiah Fraites (07:56):
A lot of good that did. It's funny, too funny.
In the dark, sad sense. That wewere we grew up in Bergen
County, in small town Rams. InNew Jersey, there was a lot of
kids our age, lot of peersafflicted with opioid addiction.
And when my brother died, itobviously felt like a tragedy.
(08:20):
And it was a tragedy. About 1015years later, I heard the
statistics and they're sostaggering that it gave me
comfort in some weird, twistedsense, because there were so
many people that had died fromit. And I don't know if comfort
is the right word, but it wasthis, you know, just this
(08:42):
feeling of like, oh, wow, Iwasn't the only one I felt
connected to 1000s if notprobably millions of other
people that are all goingthrough that or have gone
through that.
Elizabeth Vargas (08:51):
You were very close to your big brother.
Growing up. Did you know he hadan issue the serious I mean,
when How old were you when yourealized that he's a real
problem?
Jeremiah Fraites (09:05):
I think that I realized that he had a real
problem. I probably aboutprobably about nine, nine months
before he died. Mm hmm. And thenonly sad to say only when he
died. I really, really realizedI was so young, you know, I
(09:26):
think I was I think it was 2001when he died. I was born in 86.
So I think I was either 14 or15. Maybe having just turned 15
when he died. And I remember hedied. I think it was Sunday, May
27 2001. I think that was thedate. I remember his memorial
(09:47):
day weekend. And I remember thelast time that I had seen him
prior to that was sometime inOctober. So why no yeah, rewind
from May 27 to probably aroundOctober I was in high school and
Ramsey and I remember my mom,she woke me up for school. And
(10:07):
she said something like, honey,you know, sweetie, your brother
was arrested last night. He hewas driving. He was parked in a
car at an a&p. On the eastcoast. There are these grocery
stores called a&p. And he wasparked in the a&p parking lot. I
(10:27):
think it was like two or threein the morning and a police
officer, you know, tapped on hiswindow, and I think said like,
you know, what are you doing,and I think he said some of the
effect of like, I'm gonna gocrash my car on the highway, and
he was apparently high on PCP, Ibelieve. And he had gone into
the grocery store because he ranout of drugs. And I think he was
(10:47):
high on PCP. And I think he hadingested some drainage, you
know, the stuff you'd use toclean your sink, and toilets and
whatever for the drains. So hewent, yeah, he went to the ICU,
somewhere in hospital in NewJersey, I think was second and
third degree burns on his throatand esophagus. And, but I was so
(11:10):
young, I knew I didn't even knowif I knew all the grisly
details. At that moment. I justknew he got arrested. And even
months or year or years, Iforget before that, when he
first got in trouble at the highschool for weed. I remember I
laughed because I was like, Whogives a shit? I even in my young
(11:30):
age, I was like, it's just weed.
I don't know what happened tothem. And in between A and B,
something happened. And Iremember mainhand both played
soccer growing up. And Iremember he did something to his
knee. he injured his knee. Andhe got prescribed Percocet. And
that was it. The Percocet. Hefell in love with he saved them,
he would abuse them. And thateventually led to heroin. So you
(11:53):
know, it's sort of a it's aslow, I don't know, it's a slow
burn. It's a slow, step by stepprocess to get from A to Z, or
eight at step eight A B. And,yeah,
Elizabeth Vargas (12:10):
why haven't you seen him since October?
Jeremiah Fraites (12:13):
So I think in October, he essentially got
arrested, went into thehospital, I think he went into
an inpatient rehab. And then myparents tried the tough love
approach where they wanted to, Ithink they basically said no
drugs in the house, and youknow, or you can live with us as
(12:34):
long as you're sober. I think itwas something to that effect.
And he went to go live with hisgrandma or grandpa, my grandma
or our grandmother who went togo live live with my grandmother
was the one that found him onthat day. She, you know, my poor
Granny, she's she, she died, Ithink four or five years ago.
(12:54):
But she went through a lotdiscovering him and she went to
church that morning. And I thinkshe came back around 11 or 12,
and caught up to him and thoughthe was sleeping. She went up
there and, you know, touched hisleg and it was cold as ice. And
then she called our house. And Iremember I was on the pick up
the phone. And I remember shewas pretty hysterical. And I
(13:17):
remember, I thought somethingwas happening to her. I thought
she was having a heart attack tobe honest or something that
something was thought she was ingrave danger. Nothing to do with
my brother. Because in myyouthfulness and my ignorance
and my naivete, or naivenaiveness naivete, How the hell
do you say that word?
Elizabeth Vargas (13:36):
He got it.
Jeremiah Fraites (13:38):
In that state, I always told myself may have
even said it out loud once ortwice, I always thought or told
myself, this is something we'lllaugh about, at some point. This
is something and I don't knowwhy I thought I just thought
this is something we'll get overtogether, he'll get over it. I
(13:58):
never thought to go see him.
Because I never thought anythinglike that would happen. I don't
think anybody expects it tohappen. Obviously, you know, if
this was happening now, and youknow, 34 he was, I guess 37 or
38. Obviously, I'd be much moreinvolved and have a much greater
understanding. But it'sunfortunate, you know, you learn
(14:20):
so much about addiction. Onlyafter the fact. And then you
have all these skills that arein vain or you have you have all
this knowledge, it's in vain orsomething and I really love this
guy, Gabor Mata, he's I thinkhe's a genius. And he Yeah, he
talks a lot about addiction andrecovery. And I really think he
has said some of the mostprofound stuff I've ever read on
(14:42):
the on the subject and I lovehis simple, profound question of
not why the addiction, but whythe pain, you know, like he
talks about, like, a deck ofplaying cards, and cocaine that,
you know, arguably or you know,Potential there's nothing
innately addictive about eitherbut someone can sit down and get
(15:04):
heavily addicted to gambling andplaying cards. Now the person's
you know, can be a piece of cakecan be cocaine it can be now it
can be alcohol can be this orthat. So, yeah, not why the
addiction, but why the pain andI think that's really a really
profound way to look at it.
Elizabeth Vargas (15:21):
It's a very common thing, a lot of people in
recovery, talk about the factthat they used that substance,
whatever it was alcohol ordrugs, to feel normal to, to
finally feel comfortable. Andfinally feel like you could live
in that in your own skin. Youknow, it's a very, very common
(15:43):
thing you had said, after hisdeath, that the grief was so
intense, and so immense, andjust relentless and just
infinite. I imagine it'ssomething that lives with you
forever. Really?
Jeremiah Fraites (15:59):
Yeah, it's something where it's something
where it's about a million milesburied at all times. And it's
also where it's like, rightunderneath the skin. And you
know, you could be listening toa piece of music or watching a
scene from a movie. Andsometimes it's a scene from a
(16:20):
movie that's not even related tobrothers or something and just
like, can make me cry, or thinkof him in a profound way. And
then, there's other times whentalking to you right now it
feels like talkable, or it feelsdoable to talk about it. And I
think it used to feel more likeanniversaries, whether his
(16:42):
birthday or the anniversary ofhis death, or the holidays are
always very difficult. Now, oneis not necessarily harder than
the other one isn't necessarilyeasier than the other. I just
think as time passes on, I guessI'll be going on 20 years now
coming up, which is crazy. Andyeah, at the time, it was
(17:04):
terrible. And you know, firsteven 10 years, it really was
constant, it felt like, and thenit never really goes away. You
can talk about it, you canfigure out some things, some
aspects about it, you can makeit easier, better digest it
more, those types of things, butit never really goes away.
(17:25):
Perhaps that's a good thing. Youknow, I love the idea that I
just saw this, this show. It's avery dark show. It's called Mr.
Mercedes. And it's a fantasticshow. It's adapted from a
Stephen King novel. And I thinkthe psychotic killer in the show
talks about this idea that youyou die twice. And I'm sure
(17:46):
that's from something else.
Somebody else probably wrotethat whether Stephen King wrote
that, whoever, but this ideathat people die twice, the first
time you die, you know,literally your body stops and
your brain shuts down. And thenthe second time is the last time
someone mentions your name. And,you know, the idea that we're
triggered to remember terriblethings. So well. Unfortunately,
(18:07):
for better for worse, weremember these things. So well.
Perhaps, that gives us reason totalk about these these people
still so that's a I guess, asilver lining to it.
Elizabeth Vargas (18:22):
It's interesting, Stephen King came
up with that idea. He's inlongtime recovery himself. Yeah,
I've
Jeremiah Fraites (18:29):
read some pretty crazy stories about him
like waking up out of a stuporin his office like paper strewn
about and I'm a bloody nose. I'mdoing so much cocaine and beer
bottles everywhere. And youknow, it's, it doesn't help when
people like him and KeithRichards are so profound and so
talented. It doesn't help debunkthe the culture that you know,
(18:55):
be me being a musician. Isn't Ijust celebrated five years of
sobriety. Thank you on August27 27, seems to be a profound
number in my life. 27 was theday my brother died and then 27
August and then April 27, myson's birthday. Wow. Yeah, it's
(19:20):
pretty wild. Um, but, you know,Stephen King been in recovery.
And Keith Richards probably notbeen in recovery. But it doesn't
help debunk the myth that peoplelike that have inadvertently or
advertently provided so manymillions of people to look up to
when you're 17 1819. You'relike, yeah, that guy does.
(19:41):
heroin. He does coke or hedrinks and he's wrote, you know,
he's written all these novels,or he's in the Rolling Stones.
And I think that's bad for forkids and teenagers, even adults
to sort of like, Oh, well,there's a correlation, you know,
and there's so many amazingbands and people that have died.
Directly or indirectly fromdrugs. I mean, the list is just
(20:05):
so immense you have, you know,Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison,
john Bonham, the drummer ofzeplin drank himself to death
and Elvis and you know, allthese people. The list literally
is, you know, Prince and ChrisCornell and the Lincoln Park
singer Chester, so many peoplehave committed suicide or died
(20:27):
from heavy, heavy drug use. AndI think that doesn't help
debunk. And I think that'ssomething that I think for me
being sober, it's showing methat it's possible to be sober,
I think it's showing me thatit's possible still to be
creative, sober, I think thatthis album three is the best
album I've ever been a part ofmusically, and creatively. And I
(20:50):
did all that sober, because fiveyears ago, I became sober. And
in that time, we wrote all themusic together. And, you know,
my thing was alcohol. It wassomething that I think, just
from touring so much, we sort oftalked ourselves into the
ground, I think, part of theculture, right? It's big time,
part of the culture. And, youknow, it's fun, and it's cool in
(21:12):
the beginning, and then it justbecomes tight. It's just so
tired. And you know, thatclassic your, what is it? sick
of being tired and tired ofbeing sick and sick and tired of
being sick and tired? And, youknow, it's really rings true,
and it is true. And when I firstyou know, gave up alcohol,
(21:37):
somebody told me, you're goingto feel so much more connected
to music, and you're going tolove to be creative, and you're
going to be it's going to be somuch better. And I thought what
a load of bullshit. I really didnot. You know, I really didn't
think that was going to be true.
And now I you know, only throughtried and tested, like actually
(21:58):
going through it. I feel likeI've become more connected with
music more connected with mycreativity,
Elizabeth Vargas (22:06):
the culture, the glamorization of it. I mean,
whether it's even back ErnestHemingway, sort of the image of
the inebriated genius writing orcreating, you know, while under
the influence, when nobody elseis writing about is when that
inebriated genius wakes up thenext morning, shaky and nauseous
and Hanover.
Jeremiah Fraites (22:25):
Yeah, yeah, Charles Murkowski. He comes to
mind too. And I mean, CharlesMcCaskey, he was a huge, you
know, still is but as a huge,like, influence on me to where I
really loved his writing. And Iloved Yeah, the genius drunk,
and he's writing and he'ssmoking and you know, this or
that, and, ya know, nobody talksabout the next morning. It's
(22:46):
true, right?
Elizabeth Vargas (22:47):
You mentioned you were sick and tired of being
sick and tired. Why exactly didyou decide to get sober five
years ago?
Jeremiah Fraites (22:55):
I think for me, I realized, I guess I was. I
don't know how I guess I'm 34, Iguess I was 29, I probably
realized around 27, that Ishould probably stop or try to
limit it. And in between 27 and29, I tried to limit it. And I
(23:15):
never drank in the morning, itwasn't, you know, I was very
functional. And I don't evenknow if I would necessarily even
call myself an alcoholic. But Iwas very, you know, functional,
what I could do. I couldperform. I could be a husband
wasn't like, stealing money ordoing absurd things. And I think
(23:37):
in my mind, I was like, Well,I'm not hurting anybody. I'm
just, you know, mostly I'm ontour. And this helps me go to
sleep, or this helps me escapethe harsh realities of touring
for three and a half yearsstraight, essentially, on the
first album, and things likethat. So probably around 27, I
realized and then 29 I justremember I, you know, woke up
(24:02):
one day, and it was like,probably the little voice inside
my head for two years. had aconversation with my wife. I
remember. We were actually inthe studio, believe it or not
making our second album calledCleopatra, we were making it in
New York State. Mm hmm. And Icalled my wife and she just
asked me how you doing? And thenI probably lied and said, I'm
(24:23):
fine. And then, you know, sheprobably said like, how are you
doing again? And when do youtypically ask someone how
they're doing the second timeyou get the real answer. And I
think it all just kind ofspilled out. Like I think I just
said I'm sick of this. I'm notreally you know, I'm sorry. This
is probably a lot to take. Butyou know, I feel like I do have
a bit of a I don't know yeah,problem. I want to I want to
(24:48):
stop this and it was a really,really difficult time for sure.
It was a terrible time to tocome to grips with that. And I
think that you No, just to giveit up cold turkey, I had no
withdrawal symptoms, if thatgives any indication of like,
how much I was drinking, itwasn't like I was shaking or had
(25:10):
night sweats or, you know,hallucinate hallucinations or
anything like that. But um,yeah, I think it was almost easy
the first even three months orsix months, and then, you know,
as time where time went on, itbecame difficult, but then
there's just little subtle,sometimes it's gigantic shifts
(25:31):
in what you do. And sometimesit's subtle shifts, I mean,
maybe I gigantic slash subtleshift was just like, leaving
places earlier, maybe leavingthe bar, still being able to go
to bar, but maybe leaving at 945instead of 145. You know, and
just realizing like, nothingproductive or good has ever
happened between 2am and 6am.
ever in the history of mankind,you know, unless you're jet
(25:56):
lagged, like, if you're doinglike, anything between 2am and
6am, still awake, it's probablysomething not good. And I think,
you know, being married andwanting to have a family and all
that, I think it was just, youknow, to get my shit together,
especially before having ourbeautiful son, who's now two and
a half, it's like, it makes alot of sense. And I'm really
(26:19):
thankful that that was my path.
I think it shows you too, that,you know, maybe someone's
listening to this right now andthinking, Wow, what an asshole,
you know, this guy's olderbrother died of drugs. And he
still had the tenacity, of thearrogance of the boldness to,
to, to drink. And I've thoughtabout that myself. And I think
(26:41):
that kind of shows you the powerof I don't know, you can, you
can still witness something soterrible in your own family, and
still be drawn to this to thisthing. inadvertently, it's you
never wake up one day and you'relike, I want to fuck up my life.
I want to, you know, I want Iwant to wake up in 10 years and
feel miserable every day. Nobodyever consciously says that. So I
(27:03):
think what we're talking aboutis really powerful, and how
profound addiction and you know,what it can do to someone's
brain. So
Elizabeth Vargas (27:15):
no, I, I, you know, I wrote a book about my
recovery. And I wrote in thebook, no little girl ever lies
awake in bed and says, When Igrow up, I want to be an
alcoholic. And no woman wakes upin the morning and says, today's
a great day to go get a drinkmyself unconscious and have to
go to the emergency room. Nobodyplans to do this.
Jeremiah Fraites (27:36):
I asked was that your Was that your drug or
drink of choice was alcohol.
Elizabeth Vargas (27:41):
Alcohol was my Yeah, was alcohol. And I didn't
start drinking until later inlife, you know, it all. This
disease takes many paths. Ireally didn't start drinking
until I was in my 20s. And intelevision news, it's another
industry where there's a lot ofhigh, you know, high pressure
live TV, everybody trips to thebar afterwards. It's sort of
(28:03):
everybody drinks. And sure,
Jeremiah Fraites (28:06):
nobody's ever like Yeah. Do you want a glass
of water with lemon? Or do youwant a salad? Or? Like, what
some fresh squeezed juice? It'snever. Yes. So part of the
culture, and it doesn't, it'snot just music, and it's it's
funny. I mean, it's also on thejob drinking, you know, at least
for musician, it's like, if youwere a teacher, and you were
drinking, you would be fired andasked from the community and
(28:29):
it'd be like, you know, canceledall over social media. Musicians
drinking or using drugs, whilelike actually literally during
the work. It's, it's fine. It'swhatever, it's actually, you
know, it's part of it. And yeah,it's dangerous. And then at the
end, it's just kind of boring.
That's how I kind of feel. Idon't, I don't feel like I'm on
(28:49):
some sort of pedestal ever. Inever have. I don't think I ever
will. But I think just for me.
Yeah, I don't know. It justshifted a big shift for me in my
thinking.
Elizabeth Vargas (29:02):
I was struck by the lyrics to the song Gloria
from this album. GLORIA I smellit on your breath. GLORIA booze
and peppermint. GLORIA No onesaid enough is enough. GLORIA
they found you on the floor.
GLORIA My hand was tied toyours. GLORIA Did you finally
see that enough? is enough? Thatwas really I really connected
with that.
Jeremiah Fraites (29:26):
I think that um, you know, that's one of the
West is great. Down talents isthat I think the peppermint was
the key for me, I think, youknow, talking about addiction. I
think when you're talking aboutlove when you're talking about a
big open ended. Grand subject,you almost have to find
(29:48):
something specific to tease outthe humanity I think, and I
think when he said thepeppermint on the breath, it
just, it was like this reallyrandom lyric that I wasn't even
sure I was sort of like on it'scool like peppermint. It's not
really like a musical wordpeppermint. But then it just
(30:08):
really grew on me. And Ithought, Wow, what a What a cool
novel idea to like to use that,in the words. And I think that,
Elizabeth Vargas (30:16):
well, it shows her effort to disguise it.
Unknown (30:18):
Yeah,
Elizabeth Vargas (30:19):
peppermint so that nobody will smell the
alcohol. And it's
Jeremiah Fraites (30:21):
like, yeah, like this miniscule aspect,
almost like a pixel, a part of alarger frame that, how do you
talk about something so big, butyou pick some random, miniscule
aspect of it, you tease thatout? And then, yeah, masking the
breath. Peppermint. Doesn't haveto be like, you're a drunk, and
you're always in rehab, and, youknow, these, you know, heavy
handed lyrics or something. It'sso it was oddly beautiful in
(30:43):
that regard. And I think that,when I remember when we first
when we were writing this albumtogether, he kept coming in with
lyrics akin to that, you know,there's two songs in the album
that are heavily about thisperson, Gloria's one, obviously,
and the second is leader of thelandslide. Leader of landslide
might be one of my favoritesongs that we've ever written
together. And again, it's verymuch heavily about this person.
(31:07):
And, and then, I brought themusic into the song called Donna
and I brought in a couple lyricsand showed him and you know, he
has an another lyric and Donna,like, you can sober up enough to
hold the baby. I was thinkinglike, oh, man, like, this whole
album is so heavy. It's allabout this person and drinking.
(31:31):
You know, I remember saying tohim, I said, I think we should,
can we just like, take a walkaround the block? You know, can
we take a walk, and I was like,I think it's, I think it's
important to sing about thisstuff. But it was definitely a
moment where I said to him, youknow, this is bringing up a lot
of a lot of stuff for me to thisis bringing up a lot of shit,
like, trudging up the past andbringing up a lot of memories
(31:54):
that I thought were dormant oreven extinct, in my own family
and in my own inner relationshipwith it. So it was a really
great heart to heart, verycandid conversation to have
about that. Because, you know,it was just, it wasn't like,
Hey, don't sing about thisstuff, either. I just need you
to know that this is what'sgoing on with me with it. And,
(32:17):
you know, when we when wefinished the album, and Kevin
Phillips, the amazing directorthat did all the music videos,
he you know, he had, he had thetall task of doing all the music
videos, so that they weaved into each other. But also, if you
saw one as a standalone, itwould still sort of make sense
or be that be like powerful andpoetic and its own its own good
(32:40):
regard. And the glory of videois very intense. If anybody
hasn't seen it, I would suggestchecking it out. If I like song,
it's very thing
Elizabeth Vargas (32:51):
as intense though. They're all and i think
you know, what's so powerfulabout them, as you see and hear,
hear through the music and seethrough the series of music
videos, which together form whata 40 minute Mini Movie, in
essence, you really see what yourefer to and we were talking
(33:13):
about at the beginning of thisinterview that how much it's
like a nuclear bomb and afamily. Yeah, I would rip
ripples out and affectseverybody, not just that night,
or that week. But that year andthat general you know, that
decade, that generation and howit's passed down. It's such a
(33:34):
profound tragedy what thisdisease does to families and you
have written about it and youshow it so beautifully in the
songs and yes, in those videosthat were made to form this sort
of Mini Movie.
Jeremiah Fraites (33:48):
Yeah, I mean, I watched the miniseries
Chernobyl on HBO and just Yeah,that's great. Wasn't I was so
stunning and sad and reallyprofound in a, you know, awesome
in the sense of catastrophic Leeterrible how, like, the awesome
(34:10):
power of what uranium or theradiation would do to the
community and stuff and it justwas so and yeah, I guess
similarly, with addiction. Itjust really seems to ring true
in that same regard.
Elizabeth Vargas (34:22):
Well, in in Chernobyl, that entire, you
know, hundreds of square milesif not 1000s of square miles are
sealed off and shut down likethe the ground has been
poisoned. The air has beenpoisoned to the trees,
everything that lives therewater poison. Yeah. And and, I
mean, poison might be the wrongword to use when it comes to
(34:43):
addiction, but impacted mostcertainly.
Jeremiah Fraites (34:47):
Yeah. No, it's true. You know, we
Elizabeth Vargas (34:49):
used the song Salton Sea for Partnership to
End addiction, our campaignThank you. First of all, it's an
incredible campaign and yoursong really makes it
Jeremiah Fraites (35:06):
super easy to put to the animation and stuff.
It was really.
Elizabeth Vargas (35:10):
And it's all about connection, which is the
key to, to fighting the diseaseof addiction. And I'm struck by
the refrain in the song all thatyou suffered all the disease,
you couldn't hide it, hide itfrom me. Somebody always does
see, I mean, no matter how muchwe, you know, in the grips of
the disease may try and hide it,or keep it a secret, it leaves
(35:34):
out.
Jeremiah Fraites (35:35):
It's true. And I think that, potentially, it
leaks out or it seeps out inthese different ways. Because I
think the person suffering wantsto be found wants to be heard
wants to be discovered, I thinkeven in deep down if they don't
think they want to, or they sayright out loud, that they don't
want to, I think deep down, theywant to be discovered have the
(35:58):
secret. Like I alluded tobefore, when I was 27, I think
there was a part of me, Ithought, well, somebody's just
probably gonna, like, almostmake this decision for me. And I
remember, it was funny when Iwas stopped drinking, that is
when I was probably 17 1819. Ilooked up to people that or I
(36:19):
was in, I don't know what theright word is a phrase
influenced, inspired by, youknow, fallen, again, 17 1819
years old fallen into that trapof being like the glamorization
of drinking and drug use. Andthen it sort of flipped, where,
when I started to become sober,it was looking to the opposite,
where, you know, even the actorBradley Cooper, I remember, I
(36:42):
think he became sober at thesame time at 29. And he said
something, something to theeffect of, I think I've had
enough beer, you know, for alifetime. And I was like, wow, I
feel the same exact way. But Ijust needed a couple more years
to like,
Elizabeth Vargas (37:00):
make sure yeah, just to be like,
Jeremiah Fraites (37:03):
Am I sure, you know, and sort of wrestle with
it and try to what's that wordlike bargain a lot of bargaining
is I'm sure, you know, a lot ofbargain and being like, well,
and I remember even in that twoyear period, like not drinking
for a month, and then beinglike, Oh, that was your notching
for two months, and then comingback with a vengeance, you know,
(37:24):
just these little things thatwhen you look back, you're like,
there's not enough bargaining inthe world.
Elizabeth Vargas (37:30):
Do you think by writing these songs, making
this album doing this tour,hopefully starting back up when
the panda finally ends? Do youthink that you're encouraging
people to not just address itperhaps in their own lives? But
helping chip away at thatstigma? Because I know you were
(37:50):
talking about the whole, youknow, how you felt hearing about
other people who had lost asibling to drug addiction and
how your reaction was out? I'mnot alone. I'm not the only
person carrying thisexcruciating burden of grief. Do
you think that by writing thesesongs and, and making this album
(38:13):
and doing this tour and makingthis incredible, like movie of
music videos that that go alongwith that, that you're not only
going to help people feel lessalone, but perhaps chip away a
tiny bit at the stigma? Becausewe know we're not alone?
Jeremiah Fraites (38:29):
I mean, I think that's a great points, I
think, I hope so I think thatultimately, you make something.
And I've heard West say this,and I think it's really wise, I
think like the idea that you'renot so much prescribing
something, but you're describingsomething, I think in you know,
through his lyrics of describingthe situations in the way that
people and then through my ownpersonal story of kind of
(38:51):
revealing intimate details of myown sobriety and the intimacy of
like, you know, coming to gripswith being a sober artist, I can
still be prolific and stillcreate and stuff. Yeah, I hope
so. I don't think I consciouslythink well, I'm gonna tell my
story. So X, Y, and Z happen,but the way you just phrased it
was, was pretty cool. was, washealthy, you know, it's like a
(39:15):
noble, a noble cause a nobleendeavor, I think that maybe
somebody that's 15 or 19, oreven 24, maybe they, you know,
hear this and hear me talk aboutit, and maybe they're on the
verge of going through, youknow, maybe I can or maybe
anybody any of us can save, youknow, 10 years of sadness and
(39:36):
help them skip a few steps andnot have to go down. Because,
you know, for me, it probablyjust took that extra two years
where I was like, Oh, let mesee, maybe it's maybe I am, you
know, maybe I'm fine. And, youknow, two years I could add two
years back and started two yearshad seven years of sobriety
instead of five. But it's easiersaid than done. So yeah, I think
(39:59):
if something good Long storyshort, something good comes
from, from all this for otherpeople. And some of those
connections, you know, you'llnever actually see you never
actually meet. But I realized Ithink a light bulb went off in
my head where I realized a lotof my favorite artists are. It's
like they open up the pages oftheir diary. Even like someone
(40:21):
like the Red Hot Chili Peppers.
I mean, they're just so openabout their heroin, drug
addictions, and they lost a bandmember, and they lost so much.
And they gained so much throughtheir storytelling and gained so
much through their brutalhonesty. I think that's really
beautiful. And that is inspiringmore so than a drunk writer at
midnight smoking and waking upshaking the next morning, so
Elizabeth Vargas (40:46):
Well, no, it's it's like that line, booze and
peppermint. You know, in thosethree words, you realize that is
written by somebody who has beenthere, because that I know
exactly what that's about. It'sabout drinking secret drinking
and in futilely trying to coverit up. And immediately followed
(41:09):
with that is the realizationsomebody else has been in that
exact position. And I'm notalone. And that's the key is
sometimes that's the first stepin recovery, whether it's for
the person who's, you know,using drugs or alcohol in an
unhealthy way, or the peoplearound them who are affected by
that issue, to realize you'renot alone. And then you can take
(41:34):
that next step, perhaps and askfor help. And that's, you know,
that's the key. It's
Jeremiah Fraites (41:39):
true. It's true.
Elizabeth Vargas (41:40):
So well, thank you so much. It was great to
talk to you. Thank you forshowing everybody that you can
be sober and be super cool. Youare.
Jeremiah Fraites (41:50):
Now Thanks a lot. It means a lot. And yeah,
anytime we get to talk aboutthis sort of thing, it's, it's
not always easy just to like,you know, open up about it, but
you're easy to talk to about it.
So thanks for, for being likethat. And yeah, I don't know.
This is not something we alwaysget to do. So it's super cool.
(42:12):
For me, a lot of the questionsare typically about,
specifically about the songs orabout upcoming tour or promoting
something that we're doing. Andyeah, so thank you for that.
Elizabeth Vargas (42:24):
Well, thank you. We really appreciate it. We
look forward to seeing you whenthe pandemic lifts back on that
stage in those arenas.
Jeremiah Fraites (42:31):
Yeah. Thanks a lot.
Elizabeth Vargas (42:33):
All right. All right. Take care. Thanks,
Jeremiah.
Jeremiah Fraites (42:36):
All right.
Thank you.
Elizabeth Vargas (42:39):
Thank you so much for listening to our talk
with Jeremiah today. His newsolo album Piano Piano is
available now and I encourageyou to listen to it when you
can. And you can find thispodcast on Apple podcasts,
Spotify, and our website at drugfree.org slash podcast. As a
reminder, if you need help witha loved one who's struggling
with substance use, you can text55753 or visit drug free.org.
(43:04):
And we'll talk to you soon
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