November 17, 2023 • 50 mins
In episode 48, Mitch Wallis speaks to Antoinette, a multi-award-winning journalist, author, broadcaster, columnist, TEDx speaker, and mental health ambassador with a bold and authentic approach to life...
This episode covers:
- Her experience with peri and post-natal depression
- Her opinion on mental illness and the shame that surrounds new mothers
- Navigating journalism and the impact of second-hand trauma
- How to protect our own mental health when we're in a 24/7 vortex of bad news stories
- Her take on whether women have to sacrifice like-ability for a successful career
Stay connected:
www.instagram.com/antoinette_lattouf www.instagram.com/mitch.wallis
Have feedback to share, questions you want answered or guests you want to see on the show? Get in touch: contact@mitchwallis.com
Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/0CCsonotan8
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
If by being you and doing what you believe in makes people who
are part of the problem uncomfortable, you should be OK
with that. Alright, we're on it.
I wonder what you mean when you use the word I use the word Idi.
(00:22):
Take a break. Aversion to ourselves and to
what's happening inside us. Inside us I've been very
interested in this problem for along, long time.
Something settles. Welcome back to another episode.
(00:45):
Today's amazing guest is Antoinette Latouf.
Antoinette is a multi award winning journalist, author,
broadcaster, columnist, Ted X speaker and mental health
ambassador as well as the Co host of The Briefing Podcast,
Australia's fastest growing newsand analytics podcast.
She's passionate about diversityand inclusion, Cofounder of
(01:07):
Media Diversity Australia and not for profit.
That's increasing cultural and. Linguistic diversity in
mainstream media. She was Afr's Top 100 Women of
Influence in 2019. She's written a book, How to
Lose Friends and Influence WhitePeople, published in May 2022.
She writes for the Sydney Morning Herald, The Guardian,
(01:28):
Women's Agenda and Mamma Mia. She is just an all round
superstar. I'm excited to bring you our
conversation today. Hope you enjoy.
Antonette, thank you for joiningme in my house.
The first podcast we're doing ina more laid back setting and I
(01:49):
couldn't be more grateful to have a friend and a very
respected industry professional to talk about an important
topic. And one thing I'm grateful most
about having you as a friend is the ability to know you're
always going to tell it how it is.
Honesty. And I want you to tell me an
(02:11):
opinion to do with mental healththat might be controversial but
you believe wholeheartedly. Oht Gosh, there are so many.
I still think there are so many.There are so many.
But I still think that when it comes to post Natal depression,
like people understand anxiety, depression a little bit about
(02:36):
schizophrenia, a little bit about bipolar.
When it comes to perinatal or post Natal depression or
anxiety, I I can't help but feelthere's still this little bit of
judgement that oht. It's because you're ungrateful,
or you're not really maternal, or you're a bit selfish or you
love your career more. There's still this undertone
(02:58):
that a love for a child and leaning into that maternal
instinct is and should be the most important thing that trumps
everything else. And I I guess that's because
unlike other mental illnesses, this is so intrinsically tied to
a precious, vulnerable life thatyou're in charge of caring for
(03:20):
and cultivating. And so I I just feel that even
though people can be generally more open minded and
understanding of other mental illnesses, although there are
still taboos there, I'm not attending.
Everything's amazing. I do still believe there are
inherent judgments among women as well.
And men that in some way it was the mother's fault, or she was
(03:42):
ungrateful or unprepared or too selfish.
Wow. I've never thought about it like
that and I, you know, obviously understand that there's stigma
associated with it. But.
Not to the fact that if you wereexperiencing it.
That you genuinely believe people are second guessing your
(04:03):
love for your own offspring. Yeah, and also second guessing
you're like just your level of vulnerability.
Or that despite feeling this, you should just get up and
soldier on. Because if you are, as an
individual, experiencing A litany of mental health
disorders, you can stay in your bed and never shower and never
eat, and you don't have this tiny life dependent on you.
(04:28):
And I think that's what separates people's level of
empathy, because there's a sensethat we'll just get up.
You've got to do your job. Your most important job is to
look after this child so you shelve how you're feeling.
But I know in my case and in many others, you're incapable of
looking after yourself, let alone somebody else.
So as well as struggling with that, there's enormous guilt and
judgement that you're unable to do the one thing your body was
(04:51):
designed to do as as a woman. Yeah.
What you were designed to do, and I think what people also
don't understand about PND, is your body is malfunctioning at
the time. So yes, it's designed to do one
thing, but as we know, it can also not do things that it's
supposed to do well given circumstances of chemical
(05:11):
imbalances, which is exactly what you were experiencing.
And did you have P&D with both Helena and Emily or just Emily,
just with Emily. And it was in the later stages
of my pregnancy, which I actually think was triggered by
a terrible news story that I covered.
But I know we're going to get tochatting about, yeah, the impact
of World News and your daily joband how that may impact your
(05:35):
mental health. But I know I started at about 36
weeks and I had obviously a sortof mental and emotional
symptoms, but lots of physical ones like gastro issues and
weight loss, you know, hot and cold flushes.
Like I felt terrible physically as well as emotionally and
mentally. Do you think people still hold
(06:00):
other people in your life that still judge you and think that
that wasn't real and you should have sold it on more?
I remember at the time there were some comments from people
very close to me and my family that this was just a an
indication that I loved my job more than I loved my baby, or
that I loved my independence more than I loved a family.
And so it was as though my personality was a precondition
(06:24):
or I was to blame for my mental illness.
I'm not entirely sure those moves, those I'm not entirely
sure that those attitudes have shifted.
I I generally found I moved awayfrom people I didn't feel safe
around. I know also at the time and even
afterwards, people have said to me in recent times like do you
(06:44):
regret speaking out because yourkids will get old enough to
search the Internet and find allthe things you felt and said.
Aren't you ashamed? And my answer is no.
Because is I felt so much shame because I felt alone.
And I know for a fact, because Istill get contacted almost daily
by women who don't have the words or platform or freedom to
(07:09):
express what they're feeling, saying.
I see myself in you, so I don't feel shame, but I do know that
there are people that still holdthose views.
And I think what's unfortunate is that people don't understand
that you can have post Natal depression and also been
independent career driven personand those two things don't need
to trade off and what? And sit in the middle of both of
those things is a loving human being who's trying their best.
(07:33):
I see your approach to parenthood and actually your
journey is very akin to my own mother's who had post Natal
depression and was an incrediblydriven career woman.
But more than anything, what I actually respect, which some
people might judge, is that you are not only defined by your
role as a mother, that there is more to Antoinette and that
(07:54):
you're proud to have a holistic view of your.
Life and. I think, well, let me actually
ask this a different way. Do you think that when people
become parents? It is such an enormous
experience that by virtue of therole becomes encompassing but
shifts so much into their identity that they lose part of
(08:16):
who they are. I think if you ask almost any
woman, she's at some point, either before children, during
pregnancy, or in the aftermath, questioned her role and identity
as much as women. And I'm a I'm a fierce feminist,
as you know. And as much as women have made
gains to not only be defined by their uterus or whether they
have children or not, they're still an enormous amount of
(08:40):
judgement about what you do, whether you have children, what
age you have children, whether you have it in wedlock, whether
you have two or three. Yes, it's not the 1950s anymore,
but those attitudes can go and so I think it's especially
difficult for women trying to carve out a role for themselves
and maintain their identity, even if that identity is to be a
full time stay at home mum and and and and embrace it.
(09:02):
I have sisters who are full-timestay at home mums.
They feel at the other end of the judgement, like at the
judgement stick where there are people at school drop off who
look at them and like, Oh well your kids are at school, are you
going to go back to work? There's so much expectation and
so much judgement around what a woman does after children.
I know, particularly for me, finding that path and
(09:22):
independence, and economic independence was especially
important because I grew up withso much disadvantage and I grew
up with parents who were pulled out of school in year 8A.
Mother who had belly hasn't had any language skills or barely
literate, even in her first language.
And I saw with her and my aunties just how vulnerable that
left them. They were, you know, often
(09:43):
economic prisoners in in domestic violence, awful, awful,
violent relationships. I saw how disempowered they
were. I saw the lives that they led
and said how much they suffered.People often say to me like,
what drives you? You know, I didn't know anybody
who went to university. I was discouraged from finishing
school. What drove me is seeing the
women in my life suffer, suffer with mental illness undiagnosed,
(10:06):
but suffer because they lacked autonomy to to take care of
their to take charge of their future and their mental.
Health. But yeah, I I was going to
describe you as independent and strong, but I think a more
fitting word is autonomous. And I think that's a virtue and
a characteristic that should be celebrated, not shunned with
women. And I think there could be fear
(10:28):
in the world for people to see more autonomous women coming up.
Do you feel as though there's a climate of that?
Depends which cultural circles. I think generally with females,
yes, broadly speaking, if you see a woman in the public eye
can express an opinion and she'dbe called, you know, pushy and
abrasive. A man who could say the exact
(10:50):
same thing and he would be a leader and inspiring.
And then if you there are added layers to that, if you have
intersecting identities, becauseI come from an Arabic speaking
background and a refugee background with really strong
patriarchal structures in place,it's even more like Oh my God,
like you see, you hope you do too much, you say too much, be
quiet. And so think yes, by and large
(11:14):
people still don't like that. It's why we don't embrace female
leaders in politics. It's while female commentators
make people uncomfortable, It's why female actresses or anybody
with an opinion are often bullied or trolled or told to
back down. It makes people uncomfortable.
The patriarchy is alive and welland it gets worse I think in
certain sub communities. Sub Communities, you wrote a
(11:35):
book called How to Lose Friends and Influence White People.
Best title ever, which I've taken a lot from and you've done
a Ted talk. In your bio, in your intro, I'm
going to do all the ridiculouslyamazing things you've already
accomplished that you're very young, age, and still yet to
climb What? I'd like to hear in your words
(11:59):
what's the one thing you wanted people to take out of the book.
What I want people to realise isthat your anti racism journey is
a journey and that nobody is free from bias and racism.
Even as a woman of colour I'm constantly doing work to be a
better ally to First Nations andother black communities.
(12:21):
I'm constantly stuffing up. I constantly have to learn there
are so much unconscious bias andthings built into our systems
that reinforces prejudice and discrimination.
And so wherever you are, just don't be complacent.
Also don't feel guilty about wherever you are and realise
that this is something we have to continue to work on.
Unfortunately there are so many people who won't even take the
(12:43):
first step. They go, oh, I don't see colour,
we all bleed the same, all livesmatter, they say.
All of these kind of bullshit statements which don't mean
anything and which are actually true, untrue unless you're
colorblind. You see colour, we are all, we
all have inherent bias that we need to address.
So yes, realising that this is an ongoing journey.
I know you asked for one but I'mgonna give you 2 because I'm
(13:05):
always a little bit extra. And the other thing is to
acknowledge your privilege and don't be ashamed of it.
So often people and I talk aboutthis.
There's some research in that I cite in my book that when people
were confronted with injustice, it made them feel uncomfortable
about their indifference and rather than empathise with the
(13:26):
scenario. So a list of scenarios.
For example, you know the two black girls were followed around
in a shopping centre by a security guard assuming that
they were shoplifting or whatever it might be.
Rather than feel empathetic people's reactions, the the
researchers observed was they were more likely to get
defensive and start to lean intothings in their life that was a
(13:48):
bit hard rather than understand that their privilege.
And if they walk it through a shopping centre, it's unlikely
they'll be followed. And so I think people need to
sit and acknowledge their privilege and it is not a bad
word. My daughters are so much more
privileged than sort of povo me with the refugee parents who
couldn't speak English. And you know, given how much
(14:09):
disadvantage and violence I grewup around and trauma from the
war that my parents had experienced my kids biggest
problem is if they have to sharea bed at the W when we're
travelling overseas, they're like my life is the worst.
This is awful. You know, like that's their
that's the hardest thing they'veendured.
My kids are incredibly privileged.
(14:30):
I am so much more privileged. And so once you acknowledge your
privileged, you can be straight,white middle aged man called
Andrew and aunt more Andrew is are likely to be CEOs than women
in this country. That's OK.
It doesn't mean that you don't have it doesn't mean that you
can't do work. It doesn't mean you're a
terrible person. It doesn't mean you asked for
it. Like I didn't ask to be born
(14:50):
straight. I'm straight.
I have. I experienced certain things
that gay people don't simply because of virtue of my
sexuality. That's OK, Like, I'm not.
I'm not guilty. I don't feel guilty for being
straight. I don't feel guilty for being
educated. But what am I gonna do with
those privileges matters more than sitting in it, feeling
guilty, and then rejecting everything because being
(15:12):
privileged makes you uncomfortable.
And Step 2, after that's been achieved to actually unlock
behaviours that are anti racist or at very least not biassed,
what's what comes next? Well, I think there's so much
out there. There are so many resources out
there where you can test your bias, like literally there's a
(15:35):
Harvard study online thing you can do online.
There are books you can read if you don't like books, there are
movies, there are podcasts. There's so much you can do as an
individual to challenge yourself.
One thing I'd say don't do is turn to the closest Asian or
brown person you know or your Uber driver who has an accent
and ask them to do the work for you.
Or explain it for you. Whenever there are world events,
(15:57):
whether it's, you know, with thevoice referendum which we just
had, or when Black Lives Matter happened, or now with the with
the war in the Middle East. Don't turn to people who are
already marginalised and traumatised and asked them to do
the work because the the resources are out there and you
can do it yourself. One of the things that stood out
to me, I don't know if it was inyour Ted talk or in your book,
(16:17):
but and I might have misunderstood the sentiment.
But it was along the lines of. If you.
Miss out on certain opportunities and you are in a
position of privilege. Like for example, me.
I'm the textbook privilege person and I'm trying to become
more and more aware of that. That sometimes if you don't get
(16:42):
something. Because someone else got a leg
up. You need to become OK with that,
yes. And.
I agree. I know that there are others who
would say but the best person should get the job or some
rubbish like. That, yeah.
And and I think the outcome of the referendum just that we just
(17:04):
had kind of points to that whichis.
I don't want any division. We're all equal.
We're all fighting for the same thing.
But in my mind, I'm like, yeah, but that's a very black and
white perspective. Shouldn't we?
If we can allow someone to boostup without us going down, well
that's that's failure to take that first step, which is one of
(17:26):
the first two steps I just explained, which is realising
there is disadvantage and there's privilege.
When people refuse to acknowledge that inequality,
then there's never going to be yeah, no one will embrace the
next step like they didn't embrace the referendum.
We are one people don't divide us.
We're already divided. We are not one people.
(17:47):
We have huge disparities betweennon indigenous and indigenous
people in life outcomes, incarcerations, death during
birth, child mortality, everything.
But that's that failure to even take that first step.
So unless you do that first stepand actually understand bias and
disadvantage and privilege, you're never going to be OK with
(18:08):
a scholarship that goes to a woman, woman in science, or a
mentorship programme or targets for people with disability or
people with other marginalised identities.
Because you refuse to believe that there's not a level playing
field. And so I used this example in a
talk I gave recently. If there's a super tall guy at a
(18:29):
cinema and you're all there to watch 50th anniversary of Dirty
Dancing at the IMAX theatre, let's say, or a theatre that is
flat and there's a super tall guy and he's sitting in the
middle and he's blocking the people behind him.
And so you move shorter women and people in the front row or
people in wheelchairs in front of him, or you create another
(18:50):
level so that they can see that bloke in that chair would be
like, why are they getting treated differently?
Why do they get a different chair?
It's like, well, the end result is for you both to be able to
see the screen. It just so happens that from
your vantage point, you're elevated is that the end game is
everyone wants to watch Patrick Swayze say nobody puts Baby in
the corner. You all get the same thing
(19:11):
except the people who are short and people in wheelchairs need a
different seat or they need to sit at the front.
It's as simple as that. And yet people would be like,
but why do they get a different seat?
It's like, bro, you can still see the screen like it's OK,
you're not disadvantaged. They can now just reach the
level of comfort that you've experienced your entire life.
And that's how privilege and bias can become a win Win.
(19:35):
On net zero. And again, yeah, for everyone.
Because that tall person moving to the back wouldn't be worse
off necessarily. But everyone else can be better
off. If he just steps back for a
second, yeah, he can either stepback or they can create a
different path or a different lane or a different platform for
them to be able to achieve the same result, which is see the
(19:57):
screen. And so when people start to be
like, why are they getting something different?
And it makes them so uncomfortable and there's this
absolute lack of accountability or understanding.
That they've had doors opened orthey have had comfortable seats
for a very long time And and we're still in many ways at that
point with people who are stubbornly against any of these
(20:19):
efforts because they're just like, well, too bad if they
can't see, like too bad if the whole the whole too bad if the
whole film is blocked. To them, that's not my problem.
Why do people think too bad? How does that person think to
themselves? I don't care if people are worse
off than me. Does that come from In human
(20:39):
nature, there is an inherent lie.
There's a lie that's been sold to people and they repeat it
time and time again. Politicians repeat it.
People send send me angry messages.
I get it. I get questioned every time I
speak at an event. Meritocracy.
Shouldn't the best person get the job?
This belief that if you are the smartest and the best person,
(21:03):
you will just forge ahead. If you are vigilant and hard
working or whatever, and you're at that mark, you'll somehow see
the screen. You'll you don't have to do
acrobatics, but if you really wanted to, you could see the
screen just work harder. It's that belief in meritocracy
which completely ignores or justthinks that bias is a lie.
(21:26):
It doesn't accept that females are less likely to be called for
a second interview because by virtue of the fact they're
female, all those studies would show if you have an ethnic
sounding name, you're so much less likely to get a call up for
the first interview, let alone ajob, despite mountains and
mountains and mountains of evidence.
It's because people don't take that step of acknowledging that
(21:47):
privilege. They're guarding that privilege
rather than, hey, just acknowledging.
That's kind of that's helped me get to the second round of
interview. Probably got me a promotion
made. It sits uncomfortably with them
to have to question, do I have the merit?
Am I good enough or smart enough?
And that goes back to the probably overused analogy that
you get as well, which is that not everyone starts at the same
(22:09):
starting point, and therefore it's not just the best person
wins because if the best person if all the best people started
at the exact same point in the starting line.
Sure, we might be able to have the an apples for apples
discussion, but that's just not the way the world is, yes.
What can you think of a moment or a time where?
(22:30):
You really started to think, is this career sustainable for me,
given the amount of trauma I'm exposed to on a daily basis?
Yeah, About 12 months ago I hit quite a low point with my mental
health, where a lot of my symptoms of a sort of anxiety
insomnia. I was probably drinking too much
myself. Care wasn't good.
(22:52):
I realised, OK, this balance isn't right.
I was at a riders festival and start bawling my eyes out on
stage. I was triggered by something,
and this is by the sort of person I don't I really cry.
I'm not that sort of person. And I was like I couldn't
contain myself. Maybe the audience thought it
was really, really moving, but for me I kind of just lost
control of my my emotions and I was spiralling.
(23:12):
At that point I realised something had to change and so
it wasn't that I'm completely retreating from the media, I'm
diversifying what I do. I'm adding satire and comedy and
I'm writing columns about like lots of different topics,
mundane topics, not mundane, butjust kind of everyday to stuff
(23:33):
as well. So it's not constantly looking
into, you know, inequity or war or trauma or racism because that
was taking too much of A toll. One of the things I also said in
my book, I advised people and I thought I have to practise what
I preach is that if you need a break, you can step away from
the arena. The world's not going to
collapse if you're not doing your job.
(23:54):
There are other people you're the world will be just fine.
Do you need to do a look after yourself, but importantly come
back in a capacity that works for?
You and I think career breaks issomething that we should be
talking about more, but put thatto the side.
Has there ever been an image or a video that you've watched in
(24:15):
The Newsroom or on your phone asyou were prepping for a story or
even a story of body of text where you were like?
Shit. And that just stuck with you.
And like a week later, you couldn't shake it.
Well, currently all the images coming out of Gaza harrowing.
And I, you know, I can't Unsee or unfeeling the atrocities, the
(24:38):
indiscriminate killing of children, Um.
And so they've been so many deaths and so many bodies.
And, you know, I've seen a lot from independent journals or
people I follow on social media that aren't part of sort of a
mainstream media outlet, which is more likely to either blur or
put trigger warnings. So that has been awful, awful
(25:01):
because there are children and awful because it's bloodshed and
awful because awful things are happening.
But also because of my connection to that region,
because, you know, my family came as refugees from that
region because my sister and dadwere there in Lebanon when there
was the Israel Hezbollah war andgot evacuated.
So they're quite triggered by it.
So there's the familial kind of connection, but also just the
(25:22):
connection as a human and as a mother, seeing harm done to, I
don't care, you know, what nationality or religion somebody
is, any harm done to civilians has been heartbreaking.
I think something that probably has stuck with me longer and I
didn't realise that at the time was when I was heavily pregnant
and starting to have bad thoughts and poor mental health.
(25:44):
I was covering the Martin Place siege, the Link Cafe siege.
I was sent there, maybe 3635 or 36 weeks pregnant to check out
the story. There was threats of a I think
the news desk called me from home and said rather than come
into the office, why don't you go straight to Martin Place.
We're hearing a bomb scare or something.
(26:05):
It's probably nothing. And often we go to things that
are nothing and we go home. So they didn't know and I didn't
know. And I ended up staying there,
reporting nationally and doing crosses with CNN and radio
stations for hours and hours andhours.
That has stuck with me and I think that actually contributed
to a whole bunch of things contribute to sort of
(26:25):
emotionally and mentally unravelling.
But I think that covering that so heavily pregnant,
particularly when a pregnant woman was killed inside, I think
that's something that is stuck with me and as the hostages ran
out and that is something that you know, you won't forget.
It's obvious why it would stick with you because it's a
traumatic incident of. People being captive in a very
(26:47):
violent situation. You were pregnant.
Work stress. I wanna just unpick that one
level deeper. What part of that situation at a
maybe a values or a philosophical level, do you
think threatened something in your psyche that really got to
the core of who you are? Was it that?
That you've you're witnessing people be stripped of their
(27:08):
power, and power is really important to you.
You know what? I've probably haven't sat down
and reflected that deeply. I think the fact that at that
time I was potentially unsafe myself, we didn't realise the
the breadth or depth of that threat at the time.
(27:32):
There were claims that there were bombs around the city and
so staying there was and reporting was a threat to my
life and my unborn Childs. Luckily that didn't eventuate
and you know, this is something I didn't do anything hugely
noble. I'm no war correspondent, I just
got central story which happenedto be a massive, you know,
national hostage terror story. So I think being there, not
(27:58):
knowing the magnitude of the threat, but also being pregnant
and I think because of one of the women inside ended up being
shot actually buy stray police bullet I believe when they went
in to get them. I think true lives taken at
once. I think that's what really what
really affected me. Yeah, it's funny, it's only
(28:20):
recently, the last week or look last few weeks.
I was in an armed robbery myselfin when I was 19.
I was packing up the bar at the club that I was working in
whilst I was at uni and I remember we were closing up and
the manager had double bolted the door, as they do every night
(28:43):
and. We're at the very corner of the
serving area doing the last bit of counting.
And these two guys just started smashing on the door in
balaclavas, one with a gun and one with a crowbar.
They managed to rip down the locks and came in and they
(29:04):
remember thinking. This is not real.
Yeah, this is not happening right now.
And they asked us to because it's just the staff left to get
on the ground and and stare at the floor.
And terrifying. Very scary.
And they go upstairs and they talk with the manager about
unlocking the safe and you can hear that happening.
And as that's not going the way they want it to, you can hear
(29:25):
their frustration increasing andyou're not sure what's above
your head or what's going to happen and.
Two reflections on that. As of light, one is.
It's interesting that that hasn't affected me really up
until this point, or at least way less than the invisible shit
(29:45):
that doesn't exist in the real world, like OCD and intrusive
thoughts about morality and existentialism.
But the second thing is, I was sitting in my friends clinic and
I just had this feeling all of asudden.
What if people came in here right now?
Because my brain now has evidence to pull on that.
(30:06):
That could happen, hmm. And I started to feel quite
anxious and tense and. The realisation was, well, maybe
there's some splinters under there that I need to go and work
on and. Trauma can be largely processed,
but still sit with us and take who knows what of a trigger to
(30:27):
bring that back to the surface. Yeah, absolutely.
And I also wonder if in searching for an understanding
of mental illness, whether it's easier or makes us more
comfortable. If we can pinpoint it to an
event, we can say that triggeredit.
And no doubt, life events do addto trauma and mental illness.
(30:50):
But I think that also kind of undermines the broader school of
thought and understanding of mental illness.
It's the immaterial things that haven't happened, the
unexplainable things, you know, that's still a rational
explanation that that may be triggered.
People say what happened, what, what's wrong, What did you do as
(31:10):
though they would be more comforted.
And when I would then start to go, maybe it was that like, Oh
yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it. Now we accept it.
And I almost feel like, oh, am Ileaning that yes, a contributor.
But I am I leaning that into that ball falling into that same
trap where we need to understandtangible and real things to
justify feeling a certain way, when really we know that.
(31:32):
And as you would know, everything can be perfect,
picture perfect. You can tick every list off your
bucket list and still be in the absolute depths of despair.
And it's not until we're comfortable with that.
Knowing that there's no explanation, then we've really
begun to scratch the surface of mental illness.
A fucking man. Yeah, until you can accept the
(31:56):
unacceptable and to the psyche, that is for something to be
left. In nonsense.
We do start to get somewhere which because you then stopped
digging around and over rationalising and then you
actually just start feeling and feeling in the present in my
experience has been the gateway through as opposed to thinking
(32:18):
in the past or thinking in the future.
It's feeling in the present enables us to truly heal and
become let our nervous system become in a regulating state.
Speaking of, what is the two things that are non negotiables
for you now to keep yourself afloat?
Sleep. I need at least 8 hours.
I'm a big sleeper. Exercise, I know that sounds
(32:40):
really boring, but sleep and exercise?
I exercise about five times a week and I have to, I have to
absolutely see if I don't sleep two nights in a row, well, I
start to unravel. And so my family, my friends,
everybody knows that that's justa part of who I am and what I
do. They can't be offended or
inconvenienced or whatever. It's just what I do.
(33:01):
Complete non negotiables. What about you?
Sleep. I I I don't know if you've ever
seen There's this dog on YouTubecalled Rusty.
He's a narcoleptic sausage dog, OK?
And he just runs around and falls asleep in paddocks.
It's me. I swear to God I sleep so
fucking much. Yeah, and.
(33:23):
I I don't know. If that's a condition or if it's
just who I am, but like how much?
Like 10 hours and 9. OK, I mean it's it is a bit like
a child, but. I'm a big child, but I'm also
like a fear that I've been having recently is I'm getting
to an age now where I need to think about having a family.
(33:45):
No, I need to. I want to.
And I found myself doing little tasks like for example setting
up for this podcast. I was going through all my tech
equipment and that took hours and I'm like trying to order to
see what I need to buy and or onSunday morning I was just so so
exhausted and I ended up waking up at ten, 11:00 in the morning
(34:06):
and I keep questioning whether Ican be a father because.
I don't know how I would let go of a the nice to haves but B the
need to haves and unfortunately my need to have list is bigger
than most to keep myself afloat like the sleep and the diamond.
My answer to that is find a Danny and Danny is my husband.
(34:28):
Being my best friends who I lovewith all my heart because what I
lack, he thank God I married a man who doesn't need much sleep
because. Sleep is like 4 hours a night
fight. Like he can function on fire.
Because when I was at my worst and he was had to care for me
and for our newborn, I was sleeping in another room, highly
medicated and he was getting up and doing the night feeds and
(34:51):
going to work and whatever. And so whatever shortfalls I
have, he is my partner and that's real parenting.
It's a partnership. And so I think especially with
you at least you go in, you're going into this side wise, eyes
wide open, you, you know you live with this and you know
them. This is something we discovered
after. Yeah, that must have been
sidelined. And I'm just super lucky that it
(35:13):
was a real collaborative effort.And so maybe when you're out
dating you'll be like, do you sleep in?
Are you a heavy sleeper? That could be something you
call. You'll be like, Oh no.
You run off little sleep becauseI need this from a fertility
perspective. I'm looking.
And by the way, would you like adrink?
Yeah, like just do that. Can you survive in four hours?
(35:34):
And you don't mind if I go into tech rampage for OK, we we can,
we can reproduce. But for real, like non
conventional things is really important to me.
Like for example, I like the idea of sleeping in separate
rooms, but a partner might be like, fuck that, that's a lack
of affection that signals a breakdown in relationship.
(35:57):
But as an introvert who wants torecluse to my own space and just
have four corners of the world somewhere that's mine that I
don't share with anyone, like isthat again, just finding the
right partner that I think it's fine, The right, I mean, since
the relationship expert either that will find a king bed
because it's big enough that youhave your own space.
No, I need a I need a room that's just mine.
Because I think everything in life is shared and and children
(36:18):
is the ultimate selfless act where you go basically take my
life, have all my attention and priority and blah blah.
Do, and maybe this is a questionfor you.
Where do you go? Where's the one by one square
metre patch of the world where you're like, this is Antoinette
and no one else is, and I get togo.
But that's my work. My work is where I feel
(36:42):
autonomous and in my element anddoing my own thing.
That's where I feel. And where do you anchor in a
physical location you'll work to?
Is that your study desk? I probably need.
I'm an extrovert and I feed off people like I'm an extra
extrovert like I'm not there sometimes intro.
I'm the capital E extrovert. I also grew up as in a family,
one of nine, and so space was limited and.
(37:05):
So it's not a high need, No. I enjoy.
If anything, my husband will come home and find all the
neighbourhood kids in the backyard and I've invited
everyone over and he's a psychology shit.
There's 30 people. I just came home from work so I
like people around me, so that'sprobably not something I need.
But people often say, you know, this maternal instinct when you
have a child, you just feel whenthey need you.
(37:27):
It's like, no, I could sleep through a whole night and my
husband was like, I got up threetimes so and so, vomited and I'm
just like. I just don't have the playback.
I just don't have the. I just don't hear it.
I'm such a deep sleeper. It's I'm ask.
No earplugs, no nothing. Just out.
I'm just out. Surprise.
God, I know. It's like it's impressive.
(37:48):
I mean, it's impressive. Bears would find my sleep
patterns and behaviours impressive.
I'm not sure other mothers would.
You're hibernating like every night.
Yes, like really deep sleep. And then you know he's up and
you know, but that we have a partnership and it works.
Well, I think that's the key, right, is that word partnership
(38:08):
is. I don't know.
I haven't unpacked this enough. I need to do it in therapy but.
Am I scared to trust someone that much?
Am I scared to? Not provide to the full extent
or be able to protect and and. How do I lean on the coping
tools? I know that I have to if some of
(38:30):
that stuff is taken away by virtue of the demands.
Like even if a Sunday afternoon I'm chilling on my key,
groceries unwind, get ready for the week.
I'm like if there was a little kid running around here.
Where's the piece? But someone else told me.
Oh, you love them and your biology kicks in and everything
else. But I'm like.
Yeah, but what if it doesn't? Then you can find the piece.
(38:51):
I don't think you need to wholeheartedly succumb your life
and identity in every part of your time to your child.
If you need those moments of times out, time out or in other
room or sleep in or you do that like something Danny and I do is
we give each other space to be and feel and do what we want.
We don't manufacture that. It all has to be together to be
happy because it doesn't. And when you're you're better
(39:13):
version of yourself, you're a better parent.
So if that means, oh, and the other thing is like, I'm
surprised I haven't fallen asleep on this couch, I like
fall asleep everywhere as well. And so I could be like the kids
playing at outer barbecue and I'm like, napping on the couch.
You're rusty. The narcoleptic sausage.
Coke. Yes, I told.
And it's funny because because Ihave two speeds.
(39:33):
I'm like, go get 100 miles an hour, Yeah, Or combination,
absolute hibernation. And so I'll do so much in my
alert, active stage. I am there.
So much for my kids and then I'mcomatose.
And deep breaths. And so you know, and you find
the balance and you find those spaces for yourself.
(39:54):
So I mean, I feel like this has taken a turn for me comforting
you into ways to have children. And type of podcasts.
And trust people in a relationship.
Based on I have no expertise in this area.
That's about you. Now about me, back to you.
So I find this question pretty interesting.
(40:14):
What's the story you used to tell yourself, but you don't
tell yourself anymore? I used to tell myself that I can
beat mental illness, that I can bookend it.
And that it would be something that's one and done.
I no longer tell myself that. I tell myself that I live with
mental illness. It's part of who I am.
(40:38):
It's imperfect, but beautiful inother ways, and I will forever
be managing it. I was so adamant to be goals
oriented and beat it. And I've resigned to the fact
that that's not going to be my journey.
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given in your
life? Don't over pluck your eyebrows
(40:58):
because they won't grow back. That's one.
That's one that's a. Fucking crack.
That's a really important one. That's super important.
Good eyebrows, by the way. Paid for after I overplayed
(41:20):
them. Thank you.
Gosh, another one without sounding cliche or like a slogan
on an Etsy T shirt. Just you, do you?
I have never listened to what other people expected of me.
Not my careers advisor, who toldme I wouldn't make it to
university. Not my dad, who told me to drop
(41:42):
out of school in year 10. Not people in my industry who
thought somebody with my name and my look wouldn't make it in
commercial television. I've never listened to anybody.
So just do what you think is right for you.
So I love that To help people who wanna adopt that not turn
into an ignorant narcissist, howdo you do you but in a healthy
(42:05):
way that's sustainable? Is there any guard rails you can
kind of put on to? That, yeah, Well, I mean,
provided you're not doing harm to anybody else by doing, you're
just like, well, I'm just doing me and I'm a violent drunk.
It's like it doesn't work that way.
Do you? If by being you.
You're being good to yourself and you're bringing goodness to
(42:26):
society. All the work I do, whether it's
in mental health advocacy, in mymedia work, in my anti racism
advocacy, all kind of fall underthe umbrella of trying to make
things a bit less shit. For myself and for the world.
And so when I lean into being me, it's not so that I'm.
You know, committing white collar crime and avoiding tax
(42:48):
and all the other stuff. It's without trying to.
I'm no Gandhi, but it's all trying to do good.
I think the reason I'm pushing on it is it's it's everyone
wants to be authentic in theory,but practise is really hard.
So I'm trying to unpick the mindset that like in moments
where you doubt yourself or in moments where you're like, oh I
(43:09):
I wanna I should conform to a social opinion right now, What
do you tell yourself that enables you to stay true to who
you are and asking kind of another way?
Whichever feels the right way tocome into this answer.
Where did you learn or earn? Who did you see in your life
being real? Cuz usually it comes from a role
(43:30):
model where you're like OK, I now have permission to do that.
I never had a role model in a career sense because I didn't
know anybody who went to university or any professionals
around me. But what I was able to see?
With my mum was a strength. And a commitment to her values,
(43:54):
irrespective of what life through at her and life through
a lot of crappy things that my mum.
And so her ability to be unashamedly her, even though
some people found it confronting, she doesn't tell me
an example where you remember seeing your mum being
unashamedly her. Like she was.
She was comfortable to say things that made people
(44:15):
uncomfortable. Like, I remember I had like a
face full of acne. As a teenager, we went to a
dermatologist. I don't know how she scraped the
money to see a dermatologist, and we couldn't afford whatever
the medication he wanted to giveme.
And I remember her saying she's like, I can't afford.
This like, I want to help my daughter, but I can't afford
this. You could help my daughter.
What can you do to help my daughter?
(44:36):
I'm not leaving here until you help my daughter.
And so she put shame, pride, whatever down to try and help
me. And I remember he turned around
and he gave us a samples box of all of the stuff.
He's like, he take all of my samples.
And so she wasn't uncomfortable showing vulnerability.
She wasn't uncomfortable going. I'm not leaving here without an
(44:57):
answer. I mean, that's just one way to
like help. I love that she would also.
She was a little bit brazen in her delivery.
Maybe it was the language barrier, but she never
sugarcoated things because she'dseen and explored a lot.
So I always knew that life couldbe really unfair and really
tough and particularly unfair onwomen.
(45:18):
And so I guess because she nevershook the coat at anything.
I don't either. And even though I could see that
Doctor, I was so embarrassed at the time going, oh, don't tell
him we can't afford it, but evenjust kind of putting him on the
spot and going, you have the power to do something, do it.
And he did. And my pimples are gone, and now
(45:40):
you're. Going, no.
That is so cool because usually when a value trait is present in
someone, particularly if it's not overly popular or
traditional, they have seen it in someone that they've
respected and thought, I'm gonnatry this on for size.
And once they've put the jacket of authenticity on go, yeah, I
(46:00):
fucking like this. I look good in this, yeah, yeah.
And they're able to double and triple down.
And so, do you have a practical sentence or action that people
can take if they weren't able tosee authentic role modelling in
their younger years, how they might be able to become more of
themselves in daily life? I guess your overarching title
of my book is How to Lose Friends and Influence White
(46:20):
People, and I guess that is a a cheeky take on Dale Carnegie's
How to Win Friends. And I think it's being able to
sit in the discomfort of not winning a popularity vote or
knowing that you might not be. Digestible and.
If by being you and doing what you believe in makes people who
(46:44):
are part of the problem uncomfortable, you should be OK
with that. Like, I know I'm struck off a
whole bunch of people's Christmas lifts.
I know a whole bunch of people and I'm like, I'm OK because I
think you're dickheads and I don't want to be liked by
dickheads. And so, but I think a lot of
people struggle with that. I think people really want to.
People please. Um, I don't know how.
(47:05):
I maybe because I'm the fifth ofseven children and I got ignored
and I just had to do my own thing and.
I was never, you know, I was never Molly coddled.
I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is.
I just know that I have. The one thing people often say
to me, either privately or professionally, is I wish I
could say I think what you like.I believe what you do and say I
(47:27):
back you. I wish I could say it.
I wish I could. I don't know if that makes me
brave or indifferent or whatever.
But I just remind myself, who doI want sitting around me at my
dinner table? Who do I want reading my eulogy?
Who do I want barracking for me at my birthday?
Who do I want? And if they're not people I
respect or who would like makingthis world a better place like?
(47:51):
Go away. Yeah, I don't need your
approval. One thing that came up for me is
you were talking is a sense of Ithink we are invited to be more
authentically ourselves if we feel as though there will be a
base number of people that will accept that unconditionally.
As in we're more likely to jump off into a Cliff of controversy
(48:14):
or non convention if we know that there are people all around
the Cliff who would be like rainhail or shine.
No matter how this goes, I got your back and your love like you
have a a family and a friendshipbase.
I think now where with every every time that becomes more
solid and you feel more loved, you almost have a bigger
(48:35):
platform to be authentically yourself because you don't need
that bullshit. Yeah, I think that's that's
true. And I would say that comes from
a position of privilege, by being in a loving, supportive
relationship, by having so many siblings who were super close
to, like, I have four sisters and two brothers.
If I had no friends and just hadmy partner and my siblings, I'm
(48:57):
good. Yeah, I've got a solid group of
friends who I've been friends with for a very long time.
So I think, yeah, I think that gives you more confidence to
know that if all else fails, youhave.
A partner's loving parents, It'slike a risk analysis in a way.
And maybe your subconscious is doing that.
It's like maybe you won't go spend that investment if you
don't have savings that you can fall back on or a property
(49:19):
investment so you won't invest in that other business.
But yeah, sure. Yeah, that's probably true.
Roll the dice, because if shit goes belly up, I don't give a
fuck. I'm happy with what I have.
Yeah, that's true. And that's probably something
Someone Like You from the outside can witness when you're
in it and you maybe take it for granted that family and close
friends. Case that I have, which perhaps
(49:40):
others don't. Yeah.
And unconditional love. Yeah.
Thanks, Antoinette. Not allowed to call you Tony.
Thank you. Appreciate you being here.
Good. Job that was great.
Loved it. So maybe a little fun.
Emotions have a natural tendencyto dissipate unless they get
reinforced. And so if there's more thoughts,
(50:03):
more stories, more intentions come along.
So the act of how am I leaving it alone Is an act of not act,
adding more stories, adding fuelto it.
So it might not go away in 2 minutes, but then it begins to
relax, it dissipate. And so, rather than being the
person who has to fix it, would become the person who makes
space for the heart, the mind torelax and settle away itself.
If by being you and doing what you believe in makes people who
are part of the problem uncomfortable, you should be OK
with that. Alright, we're on it.
I wonder what you mean when you use the word I use the word Idi.
(00:22):
Take a break. Aversion to ourselves and to
what's happening inside us. Inside us I've been very
interested in this problem for along, long time.
Something settles. Welcome back to another episode.
(00:45):
Today's amazing guest is Antoinette Latouf.
Antoinette is a multi award winning journalist, author,
broadcaster, columnist, Ted X speaker and mental health
ambassador as well as the Co host of The Briefing Podcast,
Australia's fastest growing newsand analytics podcast.
She's passionate about diversityand inclusion, Cofounder of
(01:07):
Media Diversity Australia and not for profit.
That's increasing cultural and. Linguistic diversity in
mainstream media. She was Afr's Top 100 Women of
Influence in 2019. She's written a book, How to
Lose Friends and Influence WhitePeople, published in May 2022.
She writes for the Sydney Morning Herald, The Guardian,
(01:28):
Women's Agenda and Mamma Mia. She is just an all round
superstar. I'm excited to bring you our
conversation today. Hope you enjoy.
Antonette, thank you for joiningme in my house.
The first podcast we're doing ina more laid back setting and I
(01:49):
couldn't be more grateful to have a friend and a very
respected industry professional to talk about an important
topic. And one thing I'm grateful most
about having you as a friend is the ability to know you're
always going to tell it how it is.
Honesty. And I want you to tell me an
(02:11):
opinion to do with mental healththat might be controversial but
you believe wholeheartedly. Oht Gosh, there are so many.
I still think there are so many.There are so many.
But I still think that when it comes to post Natal depression,
like people understand anxiety, depression a little bit about
(02:36):
schizophrenia, a little bit about bipolar.
When it comes to perinatal or post Natal depression or
anxiety, I I can't help but feelthere's still this little bit of
judgement that oht. It's because you're ungrateful,
or you're not really maternal, or you're a bit selfish or you
love your career more. There's still this undertone
(02:58):
that a love for a child and leaning into that maternal
instinct is and should be the most important thing that trumps
everything else. And I I guess that's because
unlike other mental illnesses, this is so intrinsically tied to
a precious, vulnerable life thatyou're in charge of caring for
(03:20):
and cultivating. And so I I just feel that even
though people can be generally more open minded and
understanding of other mental illnesses, although there are
still taboos there, I'm not attending.
Everything's amazing. I do still believe there are
inherent judgments among women as well.
And men that in some way it was the mother's fault, or she was
(03:42):
ungrateful or unprepared or too selfish.
Wow. I've never thought about it like
that and I, you know, obviously understand that there's stigma
associated with it. But.
Not to the fact that if you wereexperiencing it.
That you genuinely believe people are second guessing your
(04:03):
love for your own offspring. Yeah, and also second guessing
you're like just your level of vulnerability.
Or that despite feeling this, you should just get up and
soldier on. Because if you are, as an
individual, experiencing A litany of mental health
disorders, you can stay in your bed and never shower and never
eat, and you don't have this tiny life dependent on you.
(04:28):
And I think that's what separates people's level of
empathy, because there's a sensethat we'll just get up.
You've got to do your job. Your most important job is to
look after this child so you shelve how you're feeling.
But I know in my case and in many others, you're incapable of
looking after yourself, let alone somebody else.
So as well as struggling with that, there's enormous guilt and
judgement that you're unable to do the one thing your body was
(04:51):
designed to do as as a woman. Yeah.
What you were designed to do, and I think what people also
don't understand about PND, is your body is malfunctioning at
the time. So yes, it's designed to do one
thing, but as we know, it can also not do things that it's
supposed to do well given circumstances of chemical
(05:11):
imbalances, which is exactly what you were experiencing.
And did you have P&D with both Helena and Emily or just Emily,
just with Emily. And it was in the later stages
of my pregnancy, which I actually think was triggered by
a terrible news story that I covered.
But I know we're going to get tochatting about, yeah, the impact
of World News and your daily joband how that may impact your
(05:35):
mental health. But I know I started at about 36
weeks and I had obviously a sortof mental and emotional
symptoms, but lots of physical ones like gastro issues and
weight loss, you know, hot and cold flushes.
Like I felt terrible physically as well as emotionally and
mentally. Do you think people still hold
(06:00):
other people in your life that still judge you and think that
that wasn't real and you should have sold it on more?
I remember at the time there were some comments from people
very close to me and my family that this was just a an
indication that I loved my job more than I loved my baby, or
that I loved my independence more than I loved a family.
And so it was as though my personality was a precondition
(06:24):
or I was to blame for my mental illness.
I'm not entirely sure those moves, those I'm not entirely
sure that those attitudes have shifted.
I I generally found I moved awayfrom people I didn't feel safe
around. I know also at the time and even
afterwards, people have said to me in recent times like do you
(06:44):
regret speaking out because yourkids will get old enough to
search the Internet and find allthe things you felt and said.
Aren't you ashamed? And my answer is no.
Because is I felt so much shame because I felt alone.
And I know for a fact, because Istill get contacted almost daily
by women who don't have the words or platform or freedom to
(07:09):
express what they're feeling, saying.
I see myself in you, so I don't feel shame, but I do know that
there are people that still holdthose views.
And I think what's unfortunate is that people don't understand
that you can have post Natal depression and also been
independent career driven personand those two things don't need
to trade off and what? And sit in the middle of both of
those things is a loving human being who's trying their best.
(07:33):
I see your approach to parenthood and actually your
journey is very akin to my own mother's who had post Natal
depression and was an incrediblydriven career woman.
But more than anything, what I actually respect, which some
people might judge, is that you are not only defined by your
role as a mother, that there is more to Antoinette and that
(07:54):
you're proud to have a holistic view of your.
Life and. I think, well, let me actually
ask this a different way. Do you think that when people
become parents? It is such an enormous
experience that by virtue of therole becomes encompassing but
shifts so much into their identity that they lose part of
(08:16):
who they are. I think if you ask almost any
woman, she's at some point, either before children, during
pregnancy, or in the aftermath, questioned her role and identity
as much as women. And I'm a I'm a fierce feminist,
as you know. And as much as women have made
gains to not only be defined by their uterus or whether they
have children or not, they're still an enormous amount of
(08:40):
judgement about what you do, whether you have children, what
age you have children, whether you have it in wedlock, whether
you have two or three. Yes, it's not the 1950s anymore,
but those attitudes can go and so I think it's especially
difficult for women trying to carve out a role for themselves
and maintain their identity, even if that identity is to be a
full time stay at home mum and and and and embrace it.
(09:02):
I have sisters who are full-timestay at home mums.
They feel at the other end of the judgement, like at the
judgement stick where there are people at school drop off who
look at them and like, Oh well your kids are at school, are you
going to go back to work? There's so much expectation and
so much judgement around what a woman does after children.
I know, particularly for me, finding that path and
(09:22):
independence, and economic independence was especially
important because I grew up withso much disadvantage and I grew
up with parents who were pulled out of school in year 8A.
Mother who had belly hasn't had any language skills or barely
literate, even in her first language.
And I saw with her and my aunties just how vulnerable that
left them. They were, you know, often
(09:43):
economic prisoners in in domestic violence, awful, awful,
violent relationships. I saw how disempowered they
were. I saw the lives that they led
and said how much they suffered.People often say to me like,
what drives you? You know, I didn't know anybody
who went to university. I was discouraged from finishing
school. What drove me is seeing the
women in my life suffer, suffer with mental illness undiagnosed,
(10:06):
but suffer because they lacked autonomy to to take care of
their to take charge of their future and their mental.
Health. But yeah, I I was going to
describe you as independent and strong, but I think a more
fitting word is autonomous. And I think that's a virtue and
a characteristic that should be celebrated, not shunned with
women. And I think there could be fear
(10:28):
in the world for people to see more autonomous women coming up.
Do you feel as though there's a climate of that?
Depends which cultural circles. I think generally with females,
yes, broadly speaking, if you see a woman in the public eye
can express an opinion and she'dbe called, you know, pushy and
abrasive. A man who could say the exact
(10:50):
same thing and he would be a leader and inspiring.
And then if you there are added layers to that, if you have
intersecting identities, becauseI come from an Arabic speaking
background and a refugee background with really strong
patriarchal structures in place,it's even more like Oh my God,
like you see, you hope you do too much, you say too much, be
quiet. And so think yes, by and large
(11:14):
people still don't like that. It's why we don't embrace female
leaders in politics. It's while female commentators
make people uncomfortable, It's why female actresses or anybody
with an opinion are often bullied or trolled or told to
back down. It makes people uncomfortable.
The patriarchy is alive and welland it gets worse I think in
certain sub communities. Sub Communities, you wrote a
(11:35):
book called How to Lose Friends and Influence White People.
Best title ever, which I've taken a lot from and you've done
a Ted talk. In your bio, in your intro, I'm
going to do all the ridiculouslyamazing things you've already
accomplished that you're very young, age, and still yet to
climb What? I'd like to hear in your words
(11:59):
what's the one thing you wanted people to take out of the book.
What I want people to realise isthat your anti racism journey is
a journey and that nobody is free from bias and racism.
Even as a woman of colour I'm constantly doing work to be a
better ally to First Nations andother black communities.
(12:21):
I'm constantly stuffing up. I constantly have to learn there
are so much unconscious bias andthings built into our systems
that reinforces prejudice and discrimination.
And so wherever you are, just don't be complacent.
Also don't feel guilty about wherever you are and realise
that this is something we have to continue to work on.
Unfortunately there are so many people who won't even take the
(12:43):
first step. They go, oh, I don't see colour,
we all bleed the same, all livesmatter, they say.
All of these kind of bullshit statements which don't mean
anything and which are actually true, untrue unless you're
colorblind. You see colour, we are all, we
all have inherent bias that we need to address.
So yes, realising that this is an ongoing journey.
I know you asked for one but I'mgonna give you 2 because I'm
(13:05):
always a little bit extra. And the other thing is to
acknowledge your privilege and don't be ashamed of it.
So often people and I talk aboutthis.
There's some research in that I cite in my book that when people
were confronted with injustice, it made them feel uncomfortable
about their indifference and rather than empathise with the
(13:26):
scenario. So a list of scenarios.
For example, you know the two black girls were followed around
in a shopping centre by a security guard assuming that
they were shoplifting or whatever it might be.
Rather than feel empathetic people's reactions, the the
researchers observed was they were more likely to get
defensive and start to lean intothings in their life that was a
(13:48):
bit hard rather than understand that their privilege.
And if they walk it through a shopping centre, it's unlikely
they'll be followed. And so I think people need to
sit and acknowledge their privilege and it is not a bad
word. My daughters are so much more
privileged than sort of povo me with the refugee parents who
couldn't speak English. And you know, given how much
(14:09):
disadvantage and violence I grewup around and trauma from the
war that my parents had experienced my kids biggest
problem is if they have to sharea bed at the W when we're
travelling overseas, they're like my life is the worst.
This is awful. You know, like that's their
that's the hardest thing they'veendured.
My kids are incredibly privileged.
(14:30):
I am so much more privileged. And so once you acknowledge your
privileged, you can be straight,white middle aged man called
Andrew and aunt more Andrew is are likely to be CEOs than women
in this country. That's OK.
It doesn't mean that you don't have it doesn't mean that you
can't do work. It doesn't mean you're a
terrible person. It doesn't mean you asked for
it. Like I didn't ask to be born
(14:50):
straight. I'm straight.
I have. I experienced certain things
that gay people don't simply because of virtue of my
sexuality. That's OK, Like, I'm not.
I'm not guilty. I don't feel guilty for being
straight. I don't feel guilty for being
educated. But what am I gonna do with
those privileges matters more than sitting in it, feeling
guilty, and then rejecting everything because being
(15:12):
privileged makes you uncomfortable.
And Step 2, after that's been achieved to actually unlock
behaviours that are anti racist or at very least not biassed,
what's what comes next? Well, I think there's so much
out there. There are so many resources out
there where you can test your bias, like literally there's a
(15:35):
Harvard study online thing you can do online.
There are books you can read if you don't like books, there are
movies, there are podcasts. There's so much you can do as an
individual to challenge yourself.
One thing I'd say don't do is turn to the closest Asian or
brown person you know or your Uber driver who has an accent
and ask them to do the work for you.
Or explain it for you. Whenever there are world events,
(15:57):
whether it's, you know, with thevoice referendum which we just
had, or when Black Lives Matter happened, or now with the with
the war in the Middle East. Don't turn to people who are
already marginalised and traumatised and asked them to do
the work because the the resources are out there and you
can do it yourself. One of the things that stood out
to me, I don't know if it was inyour Ted talk or in your book,
(16:17):
but and I might have misunderstood the sentiment.
But it was along the lines of. If you.
Miss out on certain opportunities and you are in a
position of privilege. Like for example, me.
I'm the textbook privilege person and I'm trying to become
more and more aware of that. That sometimes if you don't get
(16:42):
something. Because someone else got a leg
up. You need to become OK with that,
yes. And.
I agree. I know that there are others who
would say but the best person should get the job or some
rubbish like. That, yeah.
And and I think the outcome of the referendum just that we just
(17:04):
had kind of points to that whichis.
I don't want any division. We're all equal.
We're all fighting for the same thing.
But in my mind, I'm like, yeah, but that's a very black and
white perspective. Shouldn't we?
If we can allow someone to boostup without us going down, well
that's that's failure to take that first step, which is one of
(17:26):
the first two steps I just explained, which is realising
there is disadvantage and there's privilege.
When people refuse to acknowledge that inequality,
then there's never going to be yeah, no one will embrace the
next step like they didn't embrace the referendum.
We are one people don't divide us.
We're already divided. We are not one people.
(17:47):
We have huge disparities betweennon indigenous and indigenous
people in life outcomes, incarcerations, death during
birth, child mortality, everything.
But that's that failure to even take that first step.
So unless you do that first stepand actually understand bias and
disadvantage and privilege, you're never going to be OK with
(18:08):
a scholarship that goes to a woman, woman in science, or a
mentorship programme or targets for people with disability or
people with other marginalised identities.
Because you refuse to believe that there's not a level playing
field. And so I used this example in a
talk I gave recently. If there's a super tall guy at a
(18:29):
cinema and you're all there to watch 50th anniversary of Dirty
Dancing at the IMAX theatre, let's say, or a theatre that is
flat and there's a super tall guy and he's sitting in the
middle and he's blocking the people behind him.
And so you move shorter women and people in the front row or
people in wheelchairs in front of him, or you create another
(18:50):
level so that they can see that bloke in that chair would be
like, why are they getting treated differently?
Why do they get a different chair?
It's like, well, the end result is for you both to be able to
see the screen. It just so happens that from
your vantage point, you're elevated is that the end game is
everyone wants to watch Patrick Swayze say nobody puts Baby in
the corner. You all get the same thing
(19:11):
except the people who are short and people in wheelchairs need a
different seat or they need to sit at the front.
It's as simple as that. And yet people would be like,
but why do they get a different seat?
It's like, bro, you can still see the screen like it's OK,
you're not disadvantaged. They can now just reach the
level of comfort that you've experienced your entire life.
And that's how privilege and bias can become a win Win.
(19:35):
On net zero. And again, yeah, for everyone.
Because that tall person moving to the back wouldn't be worse
off necessarily. But everyone else can be better
off. If he just steps back for a
second, yeah, he can either stepback or they can create a
different path or a different lane or a different platform for
them to be able to achieve the same result, which is see the
(19:57):
screen. And so when people start to be
like, why are they getting something different?
And it makes them so uncomfortable and there's this
absolute lack of accountability or understanding.
That they've had doors opened orthey have had comfortable seats
for a very long time And and we're still in many ways at that
point with people who are stubbornly against any of these
(20:19):
efforts because they're just like, well, too bad if they
can't see, like too bad if the whole the whole too bad if the
whole film is blocked. To them, that's not my problem.
Why do people think too bad? How does that person think to
themselves? I don't care if people are worse
off than me. Does that come from In human
(20:39):
nature, there is an inherent lie.
There's a lie that's been sold to people and they repeat it
time and time again. Politicians repeat it.
People send send me angry messages.
I get it. I get questioned every time I
speak at an event. Meritocracy.
Shouldn't the best person get the job?
This belief that if you are the smartest and the best person,
(21:03):
you will just forge ahead. If you are vigilant and hard
working or whatever, and you're at that mark, you'll somehow see
the screen. You'll you don't have to do
acrobatics, but if you really wanted to, you could see the
screen just work harder. It's that belief in meritocracy
which completely ignores or justthinks that bias is a lie.
(21:26):
It doesn't accept that females are less likely to be called for
a second interview because by virtue of the fact they're
female, all those studies would show if you have an ethnic
sounding name, you're so much less likely to get a call up for
the first interview, let alone ajob, despite mountains and
mountains and mountains of evidence.
It's because people don't take that step of acknowledging that
(21:47):
privilege. They're guarding that privilege
rather than, hey, just acknowledging.
That's kind of that's helped me get to the second round of
interview. Probably got me a promotion
made. It sits uncomfortably with them
to have to question, do I have the merit?
Am I good enough or smart enough?
And that goes back to the probably overused analogy that
you get as well, which is that not everyone starts at the same
(22:09):
starting point, and therefore it's not just the best person
wins because if the best person if all the best people started
at the exact same point in the starting line.
Sure, we might be able to have the an apples for apples
discussion, but that's just not the way the world is, yes.
What can you think of a moment or a time where?
(22:30):
You really started to think, is this career sustainable for me,
given the amount of trauma I'm exposed to on a daily basis?
Yeah, About 12 months ago I hit quite a low point with my mental
health, where a lot of my symptoms of a sort of anxiety
insomnia. I was probably drinking too much
myself. Care wasn't good.
(22:52):
I realised, OK, this balance isn't right.
I was at a riders festival and start bawling my eyes out on
stage. I was triggered by something,
and this is by the sort of person I don't I really cry.
I'm not that sort of person. And I was like I couldn't
contain myself. Maybe the audience thought it
was really, really moving, but for me I kind of just lost
control of my my emotions and I was spiralling.
(23:12):
At that point I realised something had to change and so
it wasn't that I'm completely retreating from the media, I'm
diversifying what I do. I'm adding satire and comedy and
I'm writing columns about like lots of different topics,
mundane topics, not mundane, butjust kind of everyday to stuff
(23:33):
as well. So it's not constantly looking
into, you know, inequity or war or trauma or racism because that
was taking too much of A toll. One of the things I also said in
my book, I advised people and I thought I have to practise what
I preach is that if you need a break, you can step away from
the arena. The world's not going to
collapse if you're not doing your job.
(23:54):
There are other people you're the world will be just fine.
Do you need to do a look after yourself, but importantly come
back in a capacity that works for?
You and I think career breaks issomething that we should be
talking about more, but put thatto the side.
Has there ever been an image or a video that you've watched in
(24:15):
The Newsroom or on your phone asyou were prepping for a story or
even a story of body of text where you were like?
Shit. And that just stuck with you.
And like a week later, you couldn't shake it.
Well, currently all the images coming out of Gaza harrowing.
And I, you know, I can't Unsee or unfeeling the atrocities, the
(24:38):
indiscriminate killing of children, Um.
And so they've been so many deaths and so many bodies.
And, you know, I've seen a lot from independent journals or
people I follow on social media that aren't part of sort of a
mainstream media outlet, which is more likely to either blur or
put trigger warnings. So that has been awful, awful
(25:01):
because there are children and awful because it's bloodshed and
awful because awful things are happening.
But also because of my connection to that region,
because, you know, my family came as refugees from that
region because my sister and dadwere there in Lebanon when there
was the Israel Hezbollah war andgot evacuated.
So they're quite triggered by it.
So there's the familial kind of connection, but also just the
(25:22):
connection as a human and as a mother, seeing harm done to, I
don't care, you know, what nationality or religion somebody
is, any harm done to civilians has been heartbreaking.
I think something that probably has stuck with me longer and I
didn't realise that at the time was when I was heavily pregnant
and starting to have bad thoughts and poor mental health.
(25:44):
I was covering the Martin Place siege, the Link Cafe siege.
I was sent there, maybe 3635 or 36 weeks pregnant to check out
the story. There was threats of a I think
the news desk called me from home and said rather than come
into the office, why don't you go straight to Martin Place.
We're hearing a bomb scare or something.
(26:05):
It's probably nothing. And often we go to things that
are nothing and we go home. So they didn't know and I didn't
know. And I ended up staying there,
reporting nationally and doing crosses with CNN and radio
stations for hours and hours andhours.
That has stuck with me and I think that actually contributed
to a whole bunch of things contribute to sort of
(26:25):
emotionally and mentally unravelling.
But I think that covering that so heavily pregnant,
particularly when a pregnant woman was killed inside, I think
that's something that is stuck with me and as the hostages ran
out and that is something that you know, you won't forget.
It's obvious why it would stick with you because it's a
traumatic incident of. People being captive in a very
(26:47):
violent situation. You were pregnant.
Work stress. I wanna just unpick that one
level deeper. What part of that situation at a
maybe a values or a philosophical level, do you
think threatened something in your psyche that really got to
the core of who you are? Was it that?
That you've you're witnessing people be stripped of their
(27:08):
power, and power is really important to you.
You know what? I've probably haven't sat down
and reflected that deeply. I think the fact that at that
time I was potentially unsafe myself, we didn't realise the
the breadth or depth of that threat at the time.
(27:32):
There were claims that there were bombs around the city and
so staying there was and reporting was a threat to my
life and my unborn Childs. Luckily that didn't eventuate
and you know, this is something I didn't do anything hugely
noble. I'm no war correspondent, I just
got central story which happenedto be a massive, you know,
national hostage terror story. So I think being there, not
(27:58):
knowing the magnitude of the threat, but also being pregnant
and I think because of one of the women inside ended up being
shot actually buy stray police bullet I believe when they went
in to get them. I think true lives taken at
once. I think that's what really what
really affected me. Yeah, it's funny, it's only
(28:20):
recently, the last week or look last few weeks.
I was in an armed robbery myselfin when I was 19.
I was packing up the bar at the club that I was working in
whilst I was at uni and I remember we were closing up and
the manager had double bolted the door, as they do every night
(28:43):
and. We're at the very corner of the
serving area doing the last bit of counting.
And these two guys just started smashing on the door in
balaclavas, one with a gun and one with a crowbar.
They managed to rip down the locks and came in and they
(29:04):
remember thinking. This is not real.
Yeah, this is not happening right now.
And they asked us to because it's just the staff left to get
on the ground and and stare at the floor.
And terrifying. Very scary.
And they go upstairs and they talk with the manager about
unlocking the safe and you can hear that happening.
And as that's not going the way they want it to, you can hear
(29:25):
their frustration increasing andyou're not sure what's above
your head or what's going to happen and.
Two reflections on that. As of light, one is.
It's interesting that that hasn't affected me really up
until this point, or at least way less than the invisible shit
(29:45):
that doesn't exist in the real world, like OCD and intrusive
thoughts about morality and existentialism.
But the second thing is, I was sitting in my friends clinic and
I just had this feeling all of asudden.
What if people came in here right now?
Because my brain now has evidence to pull on that.
(30:06):
That could happen, hmm. And I started to feel quite
anxious and tense and. The realisation was, well, maybe
there's some splinters under there that I need to go and work
on and. Trauma can be largely processed,
but still sit with us and take who knows what of a trigger to
(30:27):
bring that back to the surface. Yeah, absolutely.
And I also wonder if in searching for an understanding
of mental illness, whether it's easier or makes us more
comfortable. If we can pinpoint it to an
event, we can say that triggeredit.
And no doubt, life events do addto trauma and mental illness.
(30:50):
But I think that also kind of undermines the broader school of
thought and understanding of mental illness.
It's the immaterial things that haven't happened, the
unexplainable things, you know, that's still a rational
explanation that that may be triggered.
People say what happened, what, what's wrong, What did you do as
(31:10):
though they would be more comforted.
And when I would then start to go, maybe it was that like, Oh
yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it. Now we accept it.
And I almost feel like, oh, am Ileaning that yes, a contributor.
But I am I leaning that into that ball falling into that same
trap where we need to understandtangible and real things to
justify feeling a certain way, when really we know that.
(31:32):
And as you would know, everything can be perfect,
picture perfect. You can tick every list off your
bucket list and still be in the absolute depths of despair.
And it's not until we're comfortable with that.
Knowing that there's no explanation, then we've really
begun to scratch the surface of mental illness.
A fucking man. Yeah, until you can accept the
(31:56):
unacceptable and to the psyche, that is for something to be
left. In nonsense.
We do start to get somewhere which because you then stopped
digging around and over rationalising and then you
actually just start feeling and feeling in the present in my
experience has been the gateway through as opposed to thinking
(32:18):
in the past or thinking in the future.
It's feeling in the present enables us to truly heal and
become let our nervous system become in a regulating state.
Speaking of, what is the two things that are non negotiables
for you now to keep yourself afloat?
Sleep. I need at least 8 hours.
I'm a big sleeper. Exercise, I know that sounds
(32:40):
really boring, but sleep and exercise?
I exercise about five times a week and I have to, I have to
absolutely see if I don't sleep two nights in a row, well, I
start to unravel. And so my family, my friends,
everybody knows that that's justa part of who I am and what I
do. They can't be offended or
inconvenienced or whatever. It's just what I do.
(33:01):
Complete non negotiables. What about you?
Sleep. I I I don't know if you've ever
seen There's this dog on YouTubecalled Rusty.
He's a narcoleptic sausage dog, OK?
And he just runs around and falls asleep in paddocks.
It's me. I swear to God I sleep so
fucking much. Yeah, and.
(33:23):
I I don't know. If that's a condition or if it's
just who I am, but like how much?
Like 10 hours and 9. OK, I mean it's it is a bit like
a child, but. I'm a big child, but I'm also
like a fear that I've been having recently is I'm getting
to an age now where I need to think about having a family.
(33:45):
No, I need to. I want to.
And I found myself doing little tasks like for example setting
up for this podcast. I was going through all my tech
equipment and that took hours and I'm like trying to order to
see what I need to buy and or onSunday morning I was just so so
exhausted and I ended up waking up at ten, 11:00 in the morning
(34:06):
and I keep questioning whether Ican be a father because.
I don't know how I would let go of a the nice to haves but B the
need to haves and unfortunately my need to have list is bigger
than most to keep myself afloat like the sleep and the diamond.
My answer to that is find a Danny and Danny is my husband.
(34:28):
Being my best friends who I lovewith all my heart because what I
lack, he thank God I married a man who doesn't need much sleep
because. Sleep is like 4 hours a night
fight. Like he can function on fire.
Because when I was at my worst and he was had to care for me
and for our newborn, I was sleeping in another room, highly
medicated and he was getting up and doing the night feeds and
(34:51):
going to work and whatever. And so whatever shortfalls I
have, he is my partner and that's real parenting.
It's a partnership. And so I think especially with
you at least you go in, you're going into this side wise, eyes
wide open, you, you know you live with this and you know
them. This is something we discovered
after. Yeah, that must have been
sidelined. And I'm just super lucky that it
(35:13):
was a real collaborative effort.And so maybe when you're out
dating you'll be like, do you sleep in?
Are you a heavy sleeper? That could be something you
call. You'll be like, Oh no.
You run off little sleep becauseI need this from a fertility
perspective. I'm looking.
And by the way, would you like adrink?
Yeah, like just do that. Can you survive in four hours?
(35:34):
And you don't mind if I go into tech rampage for OK, we we can,
we can reproduce. But for real, like non
conventional things is really important to me.
Like for example, I like the idea of sleeping in separate
rooms, but a partner might be like, fuck that, that's a lack
of affection that signals a breakdown in relationship.
(35:57):
But as an introvert who wants torecluse to my own space and just
have four corners of the world somewhere that's mine that I
don't share with anyone, like isthat again, just finding the
right partner that I think it's fine, The right, I mean, since
the relationship expert either that will find a king bed
because it's big enough that youhave your own space.
No, I need a I need a room that's just mine.
Because I think everything in life is shared and and children
(36:18):
is the ultimate selfless act where you go basically take my
life, have all my attention and priority and blah blah.
Do, and maybe this is a questionfor you.
Where do you go? Where's the one by one square
metre patch of the world where you're like, this is Antoinette
and no one else is, and I get togo.
But that's my work. My work is where I feel
(36:42):
autonomous and in my element anddoing my own thing.
That's where I feel. And where do you anchor in a
physical location you'll work to?
Is that your study desk? I probably need.
I'm an extrovert and I feed off people like I'm an extra
extrovert like I'm not there sometimes intro.
I'm the capital E extrovert. I also grew up as in a family,
one of nine, and so space was limited and.
(37:05):
So it's not a high need, No. I enjoy.
If anything, my husband will come home and find all the
neighbourhood kids in the backyard and I've invited
everyone over and he's a psychology shit.
There's 30 people. I just came home from work so I
like people around me, so that'sprobably not something I need.
But people often say, you know, this maternal instinct when you
have a child, you just feel whenthey need you.
(37:27):
It's like, no, I could sleep through a whole night and my
husband was like, I got up threetimes so and so, vomited and I'm
just like. I just don't have the playback.
I just don't have the. I just don't hear it.
I'm such a deep sleeper. It's I'm ask.
No earplugs, no nothing. Just out.
I'm just out. Surprise.
God, I know. It's like it's impressive.
(37:48):
I mean, it's impressive. Bears would find my sleep
patterns and behaviours impressive.
I'm not sure other mothers would.
You're hibernating like every night.
Yes, like really deep sleep. And then you know he's up and
you know, but that we have a partnership and it works.
Well, I think that's the key, right, is that word partnership
(38:08):
is. I don't know.
I haven't unpacked this enough. I need to do it in therapy but.
Am I scared to trust someone that much?
Am I scared to? Not provide to the full extent
or be able to protect and and. How do I lean on the coping
tools? I know that I have to if some of
(38:30):
that stuff is taken away by virtue of the demands.
Like even if a Sunday afternoon I'm chilling on my key,
groceries unwind, get ready for the week.
I'm like if there was a little kid running around here.
Where's the piece? But someone else told me.
Oh, you love them and your biology kicks in and everything
else. But I'm like.
Yeah, but what if it doesn't? Then you can find the piece.
(38:51):
I don't think you need to wholeheartedly succumb your life
and identity in every part of your time to your child.
If you need those moments of times out, time out or in other
room or sleep in or you do that like something Danny and I do is
we give each other space to be and feel and do what we want.
We don't manufacture that. It all has to be together to be
happy because it doesn't. And when you're you're better
(39:13):
version of yourself, you're a better parent.
So if that means, oh, and the other thing is like, I'm
surprised I haven't fallen asleep on this couch, I like
fall asleep everywhere as well. And so I could be like the kids
playing at outer barbecue and I'm like, napping on the couch.
You're rusty. The narcoleptic sausage.
Coke. Yes, I told.
And it's funny because because Ihave two speeds.
(39:33):
I'm like, go get 100 miles an hour, Yeah, Or combination,
absolute hibernation. And so I'll do so much in my
alert, active stage. I am there.
So much for my kids and then I'mcomatose.
And deep breaths. And so you know, and you find
the balance and you find those spaces for yourself.
(39:54):
So I mean, I feel like this has taken a turn for me comforting
you into ways to have children. And type of podcasts.
And trust people in a relationship.
Based on I have no expertise in this area.
That's about you. Now about me, back to you.
So I find this question pretty interesting.
(40:14):
What's the story you used to tell yourself, but you don't
tell yourself anymore? I used to tell myself that I can
beat mental illness, that I can bookend it.
And that it would be something that's one and done.
I no longer tell myself that. I tell myself that I live with
mental illness. It's part of who I am.
(40:38):
It's imperfect, but beautiful inother ways, and I will forever
be managing it. I was so adamant to be goals
oriented and beat it. And I've resigned to the fact
that that's not going to be my journey.
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given in your
life? Don't over pluck your eyebrows
(40:58):
because they won't grow back. That's one.
That's one that's a. Fucking crack.
That's a really important one. That's super important.
Good eyebrows, by the way. Paid for after I overplayed
(41:20):
them. Thank you.
Gosh, another one without sounding cliche or like a slogan
on an Etsy T shirt. Just you, do you?
I have never listened to what other people expected of me.
Not my careers advisor, who toldme I wouldn't make it to
university. Not my dad, who told me to drop
(41:42):
out of school in year 10. Not people in my industry who
thought somebody with my name and my look wouldn't make it in
commercial television. I've never listened to anybody.
So just do what you think is right for you.
So I love that To help people who wanna adopt that not turn
into an ignorant narcissist, howdo you do you but in a healthy
(42:05):
way that's sustainable? Is there any guard rails you can
kind of put on to? That, yeah, Well, I mean,
provided you're not doing harm to anybody else by doing, you're
just like, well, I'm just doing me and I'm a violent drunk.
It's like it doesn't work that way.
Do you? If by being you.
You're being good to yourself and you're bringing goodness to
(42:26):
society. All the work I do, whether it's
in mental health advocacy, in mymedia work, in my anti racism
advocacy, all kind of fall underthe umbrella of trying to make
things a bit less shit. For myself and for the world.
And so when I lean into being me, it's not so that I'm.
You know, committing white collar crime and avoiding tax
(42:48):
and all the other stuff. It's without trying to.
I'm no Gandhi, but it's all trying to do good.
I think the reason I'm pushing on it is it's it's everyone
wants to be authentic in theory,but practise is really hard.
So I'm trying to unpick the mindset that like in moments
where you doubt yourself or in moments where you're like, oh I
(43:09):
I wanna I should conform to a social opinion right now, What
do you tell yourself that enables you to stay true to who
you are and asking kind of another way?
Whichever feels the right way tocome into this answer.
Where did you learn or earn? Who did you see in your life
being real? Cuz usually it comes from a role
(43:30):
model where you're like OK, I now have permission to do that.
I never had a role model in a career sense because I didn't
know anybody who went to university or any professionals
around me. But what I was able to see?
With my mum was a strength. And a commitment to her values,
(43:54):
irrespective of what life through at her and life through
a lot of crappy things that my mum.
And so her ability to be unashamedly her, even though
some people found it confronting, she doesn't tell me
an example where you remember seeing your mum being
unashamedly her. Like she was.
She was comfortable to say things that made people
(44:15):
uncomfortable. Like, I remember I had like a
face full of acne. As a teenager, we went to a
dermatologist. I don't know how she scraped the
money to see a dermatologist, and we couldn't afford whatever
the medication he wanted to giveme.
And I remember her saying she's like, I can't afford.
This like, I want to help my daughter, but I can't afford
this. You could help my daughter.
What can you do to help my daughter?
(44:36):
I'm not leaving here until you help my daughter.
And so she put shame, pride, whatever down to try and help
me. And I remember he turned around
and he gave us a samples box of all of the stuff.
He's like, he take all of my samples.
And so she wasn't uncomfortable showing vulnerability.
She wasn't uncomfortable going. I'm not leaving here without an
(44:57):
answer. I mean, that's just one way to
like help. I love that she would also.
She was a little bit brazen in her delivery.
Maybe it was the language barrier, but she never
sugarcoated things because she'dseen and explored a lot.
So I always knew that life couldbe really unfair and really
tough and particularly unfair onwomen.
(45:18):
And so I guess because she nevershook the coat at anything.
I don't either. And even though I could see that
Doctor, I was so embarrassed at the time going, oh, don't tell
him we can't afford it, but evenjust kind of putting him on the
spot and going, you have the power to do something, do it.
And he did. And my pimples are gone, and now
(45:40):
you're. Going, no.
That is so cool because usually when a value trait is present in
someone, particularly if it's not overly popular or
traditional, they have seen it in someone that they've
respected and thought, I'm gonnatry this on for size.
And once they've put the jacket of authenticity on go, yeah, I
(46:00):
fucking like this. I look good in this, yeah, yeah.
And they're able to double and triple down.
And so, do you have a practical sentence or action that people
can take if they weren't able tosee authentic role modelling in
their younger years, how they might be able to become more of
themselves in daily life? I guess your overarching title
of my book is How to Lose Friends and Influence White
(46:20):
People, and I guess that is a a cheeky take on Dale Carnegie's
How to Win Friends. And I think it's being able to
sit in the discomfort of not winning a popularity vote or
knowing that you might not be. Digestible and.
If by being you and doing what you believe in makes people who
(46:44):
are part of the problem uncomfortable, you should be OK
with that. Like, I know I'm struck off a
whole bunch of people's Christmas lifts.
I know a whole bunch of people and I'm like, I'm OK because I
think you're dickheads and I don't want to be liked by
dickheads. And so, but I think a lot of
people struggle with that. I think people really want to.
People please. Um, I don't know how.
(47:05):
I maybe because I'm the fifth ofseven children and I got ignored
and I just had to do my own thing and.
I was never, you know, I was never Molly coddled.
I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is.
I just know that I have. The one thing people often say
to me, either privately or professionally, is I wish I
could say I think what you like.I believe what you do and say I
(47:27):
back you. I wish I could say it.
I wish I could. I don't know if that makes me
brave or indifferent or whatever.
But I just remind myself, who doI want sitting around me at my
dinner table? Who do I want reading my eulogy?
Who do I want barracking for me at my birthday?
Who do I want? And if they're not people I
respect or who would like makingthis world a better place like?
(47:51):
Go away. Yeah, I don't need your
approval. One thing that came up for me is
you were talking is a sense of Ithink we are invited to be more
authentically ourselves if we feel as though there will be a
base number of people that will accept that unconditionally.
As in we're more likely to jump off into a Cliff of controversy
(48:14):
or non convention if we know that there are people all around
the Cliff who would be like rainhail or shine.
No matter how this goes, I got your back and your love like you
have a a family and a friendshipbase.
I think now where with every every time that becomes more
solid and you feel more loved, you almost have a bigger
(48:35):
platform to be authentically yourself because you don't need
that bullshit. Yeah, I think that's that's
true. And I would say that comes from
a position of privilege, by being in a loving, supportive
relationship, by having so many siblings who were super close
to, like, I have four sisters and two brothers.
If I had no friends and just hadmy partner and my siblings, I'm
(48:57):
good. Yeah, I've got a solid group of
friends who I've been friends with for a very long time.
So I think, yeah, I think that gives you more confidence to
know that if all else fails, youhave.
A partner's loving parents, It'slike a risk analysis in a way.
And maybe your subconscious is doing that.
It's like maybe you won't go spend that investment if you
don't have savings that you can fall back on or a property
(49:19):
investment so you won't invest in that other business.
But yeah, sure. Yeah, that's probably true.
Roll the dice, because if shit goes belly up, I don't give a
fuck. I'm happy with what I have.
Yeah, that's true. And that's probably something
Someone Like You from the outside can witness when you're
in it and you maybe take it for granted that family and close
friends. Case that I have, which perhaps
(49:40):
others don't. Yeah.
And unconditional love. Yeah.
Thanks, Antoinette. Not allowed to call you Tony.
Thank you. Appreciate you being here.
Good. Job that was great.
Loved it. So maybe a little fun.
Emotions have a natural tendencyto dissipate unless they get
reinforced. And so if there's more thoughts,
(50:03):
more stories, more intentions come along.
So the act of how am I leaving it alone Is an act of not act,
adding more stories, adding fuelto it.
So it might not go away in 2 minutes, but then it begins to
relax, it dissipate. And so, rather than being the
person who has to fix it, would become the person who makes
space for the heart, the mind torelax and settle away itself.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.