Chelsea Pottenger: from a panic attack in the Sydney harbour tunnel to a thriving CEO

In episode 46, Mitch Wallis speaks to founder of EQ Minds and recovering perfectionist, Chelsea Pottenger, who shares how her experience with mental illness fuelled her passion for helping busy minds reset and recharge so they can successfully balance high performance and great mental wellbeing. If you find yourself dancing around the edges of burnout more often than not, this ep is for you.

This episode covers:

• how 2 traumatic brain injuries triggered her mental health issues
• the single greatest mindset shift to help reduce perfectionism
• how to let go of ego to better serve your goals and wellbeing
• what factors in life really drive people to burn out, and why they might not be what you think
• the clinical difference between exhaustion and burnout
• how to integrate achievable mental and physical resets across the year
• taboo topics and non-conventional ways to support your mental health

Stay connected:

www.instagram.com/chelseapottengerofficial

www.eqminds.com

www.instagram.com/mitch.wallis

Have feedback to share, questions you want answered or guests you want to see on the show? Get in touch: [e-mail]

Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/5IFdF5eIS5I

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome back to another episode.Today I am talking to the
amazing Chelsea Pottinger who's an international wellbeing
speaker, ambassador for mental health organisations like Are
You OK? Day and the Gidget Foundation.
She's authored a book, The Mindful High Performer.
Her passion is helping busy minds reset, recharge and

(00:22):
navigate the challenges of everyday life.
She's been featured on Channel 9, ABC News, Marie Claire and
Women's Health with many and works with many high profile
clients like Westpac, eBay, Estee Lauder, Google, etcetera.
She's the founder and director of EQ Mines who empowers people
to take control of their mental well being be more efficient,

(00:45):
resilient and happy. And the thing that I found most
interesting in our talk was how burnout affects so many areas of
our life and how she came up with this kind of three day
check-in rule having a break forthree days.
That will give you a lot of answers with regard to is this
kind of chronic or is this something else or is this, I

(01:08):
just needed a reset. So I hope you enjoy the chart.
Lots of good things in here for optimising work, performance,
finding what's driving our constant pursuit of achievement
and also some communication skills of course, because that's
what we do in real conversations.
Hope you enjoy. So Charles, you've done a tonne
of work in corporates with on high performance some incredible

(01:33):
names and logos. You're someone that really
understands the potential trade off of caring about people and
driving good business outcomes and showing that they don't need
to trade off. Also how people can live full
fledged careers and do great things and not have to at the

(01:54):
expense of their own personal anxieties and and potential
depression etcetera. This has to come from your own
lived experience, which you've spoken about previously.
But can you take me back? There are some parts that I
don't know, For example, the role that your head injuries
have played. When's the first time you felt
all? I think I have bad mental

(02:15):
health. Yeah, it's it's a really good
place I think for us to start niche.
You know, a couple of things that I think that have
contributed to my mental ill health was the first time was
2010. I was down skiing with Jane's
family. A snowboarder slammed into me,

(02:36):
which left me kind of lying facedown in the snow and unable to
breathe each bed off. Luckily my father in law was
kind of skiing down behind me and to make them all.
To make the situation more terrifying, probably for him,
was that I began sort of convulsing when he turned me
over to get oxygen in for Miss Vasovagal attack, and that

(02:59):
incident left me with a concussion and some broken bones
like broken ribs. And then, coupled with that
2013, I was running a bag of rubbish down the stairs.
And I fell down the stairs and whacked the back of my head onto
the stairs and I immediately I had another vasovagal convulsion

(03:20):
attack and and my brother and myhusband Jay found me because
they had obviously heard the crash outside.
And then an ambulance came, picked me up took me to the
hospital. I had numerous tests to
determine the extent of my injuries to my brain.
And to be honest, Mitch, you know the doctors are like well,
from their tests like everythingkind of looks OK that was on a

(03:41):
Saturday right as these high performer like just maniac on
Monday. I go back to work right after
having this injury on Saturday. I'm back at work on Monday and I
drive through the Harbour Tunneland then suddenly I have this,
you know, I couldn't breathe. I'm having like these
peripheral. Vision was kind of narrowing

(04:04):
down. I was really scared that I was
going to cause like this big caraccident, like a 20 car pile up
in the in the Harbour Tunnel. I managed to pull over, you know
they got those shoulders in there.
I jumped in the back seat of my car and just trying to, trying
to breathe. And even though I couldn't see
and I felt like the tunnel was kind of caving in around me, I

(04:26):
could hear just these commuters zooming past.
And they were just unaware, right, that there's this woman
in this SUV having this like panic attack, panic attack and.
Then I then they sent the emergency team down.
Security arrived because from all appearances there's an empty
car parked down in the Sydney terminal.

(04:48):
There's no one in the driver's seat.
They're concerned that's a threat.
So then they just see me in the back of the car just like laying
down breathing and and I just said to me I just I need a
moment and and they kindly just towed me out of the tunnel and
and they drove me home. But that incident, because it
happened within 48 hours of falling down the stairs, I went

(05:09):
back, right? The Prince of Wales private
hospital to get some more tests done.
Like I went to see my neurologist again and said, you
know something's not quite rightwith me.
And he said nothing looks suspicious on your scans and he
kind of just sent me on my way. And even though that they
couldn't see it from the brain scans from the particular ones
that they did back then. You know, something was clearly

(05:31):
wrong with me, Mitch, because I couldn't get back in my car
knowing that I had to commute back through those harbour
tunnels and and I knew there wassomething wrong.
My husband Janice, there was something wrong and and my GP
knew it. And then I was referred to a
psychologist who acknowledged that what I was experiencing
was, you know, severe anxiety. Was it due to the head traumas?

(05:54):
I think so. You know, I think the brain, you
know, the brain is this magnificent organ and it's but
it's so, so soft. Like it's soft like the
consistency of soft butter. And then the skull is really,
really hard. And in order to protect the
brain, they're kind of, there's many sort of sharp, Bony ridges
inside which hold our brains in place.

(06:16):
And then when you hit your head like how I did.
Your brain kind of bounces around right in in this skull
like a, you know, a whiplash injury or.
Your brain collides with the inside of the skull causing
damage and and while some peopleI feel develop these symptoms
immediately following a traumatic brain injury.

(06:37):
Others find their symptoms, I think, that emerge over a period
of weeks or months as a result, right of that delay, the
underlying cause of the symptomsand it's kind of forgotten about
or it's never uncovered until kind of this.
These symptoms, like confusion or memory problems, or anxiety
or rage or angry births or poor judgement, appear like a few

(06:58):
months down the track. You know, I was one of the lucky
ones that my therapist got on toit straight away and and she
really helped me with gentle exposure back then, so I had six
sessions with her. To to help me get back into
driving the car. And you know, being this sort of
high performer, like Type A human, I'm like, I know you get

(07:21):
onto this as quickly as possiblebecause I didn't have time for
severe anxiety that prevented mefrom not doing my job.
That took six sessions with her daily cognitive exercises.
Jay like driving me through the tunnel multiple times a day and
then me doing it by myself, Likecheering myself on.

(07:41):
And then I was kind of able to overcome my anxiety.
About having anxiety, which I know sounds hilarious.
That's kind of that was the first insight to me of the lens
through an anxious person. Wow, what a story.
And I'm so glad that you have used it to fuel your mission now

(08:04):
and that one of the benefits I think of being a high performer
is that tenacity and that kind of never say die, must move
forward, must achieve. And I guess you borrowed from
that a little bit to be able to look into your treatment plan
and say, well, I've gotta take astep forward.
I gotta move toward the hard part.
Because for a lot of people, once an experience that acute

(08:26):
happens, all we do is avoid. But the consequence of that is
our world shrinks further and further and further and then the
anxiety fuels the anxiety. So I guess I'm that's a long way
of saying thank you to the high performance part of you that
assisted in your recovery. Did you ever know anxiety before
then or did Cause I my experience with a lot of high

(08:49):
performance is there is a general sense of non ease that
if they're not diagnosed with anxiety or depression or OCD or
eating disorders or whatever, they often experience a a
reflective when when asked aboutchildhood and unease like

(09:12):
nothing ever felt fully comfortable and peaceful.
There was always this like agitation away from something
and maybe towards something, butit's usually away from
something. Can you relate to that at all?
To be honest Mitch, for me the only thing I reflect on with my
childhood that could contribute to you know my anxiety then then

(09:33):
more so with post Natal depression like significantly
right end up in a psychiatric hospital really unwell was more
the perfectionism that came fromthe Taipei kind of personality.
And I think, you know, I've got these very I've got great
parents. One is like the Nourisher and
and just really gentle and loving and kind and the other

(09:55):
ones, the driver. Where if I didn't get an A+ on
the piano exams it'd be like well you know I'd get a minus
like always a plus like you knowand I feel like that kind of
stemmed this. Nothing's ever good enough.
I've gotta tick, tick, tick, tick and I'm a middle child so
I'm always like trying to you know look at me, I'll try and
and I pay this different pathway.
And so I didn't realise that I was someone who suffered

(10:18):
perfectionism until my psychiatrist kind of picked that
up when I was in the hospital with with post Natal depression
and anxiety. And so, you know, it's one of
the most wild things to me, which is that I had those
experiences there with that car,with the, you know, with the
Harbour Tunnel and the and the skiing incident.

(10:39):
I didn't even think to mention that right to my doctors when I
fell pregnant with Clara, you know that I would be someone who
would be vulnerable to perinatalanxiety and depression that
didn't even rear its head because I was just so excited
and I was so unaware. Like, it's kind of for me.
I reflect that going. Oh, that's.
You know you you just say we weren't educated or empowered to
know what it was so when you fell pregnant that you are very

(11:03):
high vulnerability right to go through this and also it's it's
very strong in our genetic lining like the anxiety and
depression is very strong throughout Gene Lion.
And all those kinds of things I didn't even investigate, you
know, when I when I fell pregnant, so.
To say when I was a young guy that I have ill ease around, not

(11:26):
really. Reflecting back, I was always a
really happy kid and a really. Really confident kid.
However, there was that very strong perfectionism element to
my personality that kind of I figured out later down the
track. Yeah, so there maybe was this
sense of not being enough and less XYZ conditions were

(11:48):
fulfilled. Hmm, you're right to that.
Absolutely. I can absolutely relate to that.
And it's like that whole sense of working harder.
You know, making sure that whatever I put out to the world
is 110%. I mean this is all changed now.
I've it's taken me 7 years to recover as a perfectionist with

(12:09):
a lot of therapy and all of lot of like investment into myself.
But yeah, I think, I think that's that's right.
What does? What's been the single greatest
thing? And we'll deep dive into it
more, but I love oversimplifyingthings where possible.
What's the single greatest mindset you've had to change to

(12:33):
move from a perfectionist where it hurt to a fully embraced
Chelsea who seems to strike a very good balance?
What's the number one mindset you have to either gain or let
go of? Yeah, that's a really good
question. The the one thing that really
has helped me with my perfectionism, particularly
right mentioned with the line ofwork that we do is that.

(12:57):
I take the massive pressure off myself these days and when I get
up on stage and I might be with eight people or 500 people or
5000 people. And I always think if I can help
one person inside this room 1 just one.
Help them to empower them to take care of their mental well
being. And also stop someone from

(13:18):
falling into hospital where I ended up that.
Is such a successful day and So what that mindset shift has done
for me is actually taking the pressure off myself.
And it's really, really helps around, you know, battling
sometimes with those. Thoughts that we have around.

(13:40):
Well, you know, I'm not a PhD psychologist yet, and I'm not
you know this. But you know what?
We have lived experience and we care.
We have passion and a desire to help people.
So I think when you get outside of your own head.
And you do something for somebody else.

(14:00):
That's where it shifts, yeah, agree.
And I think what that mindset represents is the the need or I
would say the like going of the need for this to be the biggest
thing in the world. You know, if I, I really relate
to this, some of my perfectionism is driven by must

(14:21):
be bigger must be better must befaster, must be harder,
stronger, etcetera. And I think when when you when
you come back to a focal point of one person, what I believe
that does is it shrinks ego and it removes a lot of cause.
Ego is perfectionism essentially.
You know that they are born fromthe same territory which is a

(14:42):
want for social esteem and status and validation.
But the one person Ness is incredibly humbling and it's
it's reduces your almost in someways and I, and I think you'll
know the way that I intend in saying this any type of
narcissism becomes vacuumed out when you go back to the one on

(15:05):
one aspect even when you're in A1 to many role.
And I also find that really helpful.
I actually have someone in my OneNote, a picture of them who
has a name. They live overseas and they're
they're a friend of mine and I have their name and their face
and I I whenever I get overwhelmed I say this is who

(15:27):
you're doing it for. Don't forget this is your one
person and the one person test can be applied I think for
anyone in a growth position who's trying to achieve achieve
achieve to. So that at the end of the top of
the mountain, this group of people are there with the
marching band being like, how good was that?

(15:47):
When you remove the marching band at the end of the mountain
and you imagine yourself as justclimbing along the path with
another person who you're helping, I think a lot of the
bite gets taken out of the drive, but you're still left
with the good ingredients of thedrive.
Would you agree? I love that, Mitch.
That is such a beautiful way to say that.

(16:08):
I absolutely agree. It's, I think it's a, it's a,
it's a beautiful place to be. I think when you can contract
that ego and that whole place ofserving someone else.
Makes you feel also bigger. You know, they're part of
something bigger, bigger, collective when they're actually
just out there helping one person at a time.

(16:32):
But I really love how you've just positioned that.
And yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly, even with
surfing these days. No ego, you know, Like, I just
get out there. Someone wants to drop in on a
wave. Like, you go for it, my friend.
Good luck. I'm like, I'm just here to have
a good time. Just get some 2 foot glassy
waves and I'm here to have a laugh, you know?

(16:53):
And it's just such a beautiful position to be in.
Yeah, I think it also helps withthe people who get caught up in
comparing themselves to others and.
You know, I just think when you're just doing your own
thing, know what your purpose is, it's OK.
And then you're you're more complementary to everyone else
who's out there having a go at things too.

(17:15):
It's just like good on you mate,for doing that.
Like, I'm so proud of you ratherthan being in a bit of a toxic
headspace of what are they doingand I've got to get their their
competitor. I'd like them, my competitor and
I just find it particularly in our space that we work in.
We're here too. If there's more people doing
what we do, Mitch, there's a bigger pie, which means that

(17:36):
there's more people getting help, which means our human
collective is getting more well.And I'm like what an awesome
world that would look like if there's just more people out
there helping each other out. And so I think when you're from
that place too, you know, it's just a healthier mindset to be
in. For sure they're grey.
Yeah, achieving is such a doubleedged sword.

(17:58):
Like there's so much goodness that comes from wanting to
achieve, but there's also a lot of tax to pay.
And I find that the the thing that's helped me most outside of
mindsets like what we just spokeof is learning how to find the
piece that sits underneath the clinging.
And my therapist and I would do these somatic visualisations
where there's a big part of me that's like, want to help, want

(18:21):
to achieve. And to be honest, selfishly want
people to tell me I'm doing a great job.
But then if we just like drop away from the stories in the
mind and actually if I tap into my body and he's like, is there
anywhere under there that is feeling like things are OK just
as they are right now? If nothing changed and I'm like,
yeah, yeah, I couldn't type intosomething remotely akin to that

(18:43):
is OK. I just want you to like, rest in
that for a second. And the more and more I sit in,
the part of me which is, which is genuinely feels safe and that
there actually already is enough.
Like I have enough honey. Um, I have enough therapy under
the belt. I have enough friends and family
that love me to some degree, youknow, harder my sleeve and my

(19:06):
speaking career and everything else.
Have we achieved We help one person?
Absolutely. So whenever I'm in that part of
my psyche, I'm like, ah, like, it just becomes so much more
circular. There's not the tension and
everything on top of that. It's not like I'm ever going to
stop striving, but the striving is so much more enjoyable when
it comes from a place of I'm already enough.

(19:28):
This is good, and I'm going to take steps forward supposed to.
I will only feel peace once thismythical objective in the future
is achieved. Yes, to that 1000%.
And you know, I just, my mum hadthis always beautiful quote on
her fridge and my mum's just themost beautiful human and it was,

(19:51):
you know, how can you be happy with more if you're not happy
with what you currently have. And I've always remembered that
because like we were raised in apretty lower socioeconomic area
of Aubrey and but we had so muchlove in that family household.
And I remember COVID here, you know, and.
She called me and she's like, Ohmy gosh, is your business gonna

(20:12):
be OK? Will you survive this?
And I'm like, hey Mama, rememberhow you taught me always be
grateful and happy with what we have.
And I said, you know what? They can take the house, they
can take the car, they can take all this window dressing.
This is material crap. As long as I don't lose my
family and my health, we're going to be just fine.

(20:34):
And that's an always place I reflect on that.
You're right. Like, we have enough, you know,
and I think because we are both learners and we're servers and
we love this stuff of what we do, right.
We'll be on the journey for a very long time.
But it also just helps. We don't have to flog ourselves
like 52 weeks a year, You know? I work 40 weeks a year to take

(20:56):
proper scheduled breaks with my friends or my family because
that's my life journey. I want to enjoy myself while I'm
doing this job too. Yeah, the enjoyment while doing.
I think a lot of people who burnout are perpetually in a future
state as opposed to a current state.
And I know that like, the only reason to burn out, I believe is

(21:21):
if you're genuinely fighting forsurvival.
If you burn out beyond that point, then it's ego.
Something insecure is driving that pace.
So nothing on the outside world is ever going to solve it.
That's an inside out job every time.
Like you're running from something, or you're waiting to
feel enough for something. And even when that comes, trust

(21:43):
me as someone who's walked that,it's never enough.
It's a drug, and it will make you work harder and harder and
harder for it. What?
What do you see as As someone who works every day with people
who are high performers and us more subject to burnout than
others, what do you see as some of the reasons?

(22:03):
That drives people to that point.
Yeah. It's a it's a great question and
Mitch, I think the the main reason I always feel like it
comes down to one word, which islack right.
There's a lack of focus on themselves.
There's a lack of boundaries. And so they just don't know how
to say no, or they don't want tosay no, or they in that strive

(22:24):
mode, or there's a lack of a awareness where they just don't
know. Burnout can sometimes be
cumulative, you know? It kind of sneaks up on us.
And I always feel like, why do we go from, you know, feeling
great, right? Feeling really good about
ourselves on top of our job, on top of our game, loving our
hobbies, loving our mates, loving ourselves.

(22:47):
And then that feels good. And then the next day where you
can barely drag ourselves out ofbed, right?
We're like low mood, brain fog, low motivation.
We get to work, we have like 5000 coffees.
Nothing seems to help. We then get home at the end of
the day. Exhausted.
Flop one of the cat special bottle of wine.
Watch Netflix eat a tub of ice cream.

(23:09):
Alright, that's kind of it's, it's this weird pendulum that
people will swing between and I think why do we do that?
I think the truth is as well is that we don't, we can't see the
brain, you know, like we can't go around going, you know,
Mitch, far out mate. I can see you've got about 40%
left of serotonin there. I think it's probably time you
go booking for Bali again. You know, we just can't see

(23:30):
that. So unless you're dialled into
yourself and you've got that awareness and you see these
little signs that are signs of sneak up, then it's really,
really challenging to know when it's here.
And people will say to me, you know, what's the difference
between feeling stressed and exhausted to feeling burnt out.
And there's usually 3 clinical dimensions they say at uni.

(23:51):
One is just sheer exhaustion when you have nothing left in
the tank, like you know when you're having a coffee and
nothing seems to give you the edge, like, you know, you just
so tired and people trying to consume more and then just
exhausted, #2 is cynicism, right?
They get cynical towards their job.
They get cynical towards the people in their life.
They get cynical towards the world, the new everything right

(24:14):
everything kind of starts getting a bit more of a negative
lens, and then the third one is reduced sense of accomplishment.
They just can't produce in the same kind of way.
And there's some pretty easy adjustments that I think that
people can do when they're starting to feel like they're
burning out, but they have the time to take that accountability
and discipline and ownership. And one of the things that I

(24:35):
feel like help me, that my psychologist and integrative Dr
and psychiatrist and we talk about this stuff all the time,
is this sort of three day rule where you take a Friday or a
Monday off. Obviously do diligence, everyone
listening in with your job and your role.
But if you can take a long weekend and that's the reset
weekend, it's not the time to goon a Bender with your mates,

(24:57):
right? Like that's not the time to lift
yourself up. It's the time to actually nail
your basics. You have to prioritise your
sleep. You have to eat clean.
You have to, you know, do some kind of gentle movement.
It's not like pounding the pavement, flogging yourself,
marathon running, a self care, any kind of former that.

(25:17):
What that looks like for you is that the ice bath?
Is it a massage? Is it just reading a beautiful
novel on your balcony? Having a cup of tea and then
like just limit as best as he can things like the alcohol.
In fact, I would say just wipe the alcohol out for those three
days. Were you doing that?
We said because alcohol is a central nervous system

(25:38):
depressant, so it's also going to impact our deep REM sleep.
Therefore, just like cut the booze for those three nights,
you know, coffee. I've just scale back the intake
to so you're not getting hectic withdrawal symptoms.
So if you're having like I don'tknow, four shots of coffee a
day, maybe just scaling that back to half and then I'll just
say, hey, remove yourself from social media and the news just

(26:00):
for those three nights. And that's because, you know,
social media, there's a lot of causation or data out there
around us being on it for a longperiod of time and the impact on
our mental ill health. And then also people feel like
they get FOMO. They're looking around at
everyone else, having a good weekend.
We want them to experience Jomo instead, which is joy of missing

(26:21):
out rather than fear of missing out.
And then the news, right? We see Doctor Daniel Amen talks
about 14 minutes of negative news is like really impactful on
our anxiety, our stress, and as we can imagine, right with
what's going on right now in ourworld, like we are in so much
pain because we're feeling it asa human collective of what's

(26:42):
going on over there. And so just eliminating those
kinds of things for three nights, right?
And then when you get back to work on the Monday if you're
still feeling like you are guessing hard and you're like I
have I'm still not recovered. I would really encourage people
to get on the phone and call your doctor, go get your blood
work done, go and check in with your therapist.

(27:02):
Right. This, it could be something
there lingering in there, maybe a low on vitamin, I don't know
if vitamin D or low iron or low vitamin B12 or maybe there's a
lot of stuff going on up here. So go and engage with your
therapist and and you know have a chat to them and and kind of
there the next set of accountability steps that we can
do to get ourselves back. But what a lot of people do, I

(27:24):
think Mitch, is they feel like they're gonna be exhausted and
then like, you know what? It's the weekend and they just
they just blow a gasket. They go hard socially, they go
hard on working out, they might do some work over the weekends
and then Monday they just turn up still completely, just
completely shattered. Yeah.
I feel that. I feel that for sure, because

(27:46):
when you're low on energy and you're staring down the barrel
of burnout, you're looking for dopamine rushes and hits to be
able to make you feel better. And the problem is, is that
usually those results in pushingyou further down the bad funnel.
You I think you know. I like how you frame that.

(28:07):
Do you think 3 days is kind of the the magic test number?
If if I take 3 days out and totally try and reset and that
doesn't stick, then something else is at play.
Yeah, that's what, that's what Isay for sure.
I think 3 days is a good amount of time.
I mean, get a fair few long weekends in Australia, you know,

(28:27):
that could be a good time to reset yourself.
I think 3 days is a good amount of time to turn things around.
And I'd say to people like n = 1, right in science, like try it
out, see how you feel. But I see a lot with thousands
of people that we work with thatthey will take the three day,
They'll reset themselves. They're disciplined, right?
They're not sneaking in the glass of wine, They're doing

(28:48):
things gently. They're just really honouring
their body. Really interesting, you know
that dopamine reward. We were trying to get external
validation. This is when we need to be OK
with ourselves going inward and just being right, noticing
what's coming up, doing journaling, if that's kind of
your thing too. Things that we know that really
nourish up the system. And then on Monday, yeah, if

(29:09):
things aren't looking OK, just give the doctor a quick call and
get your blood, get your dashboard checked.
You know, our body doesn't lie to us, and it's really important
that we kind of work out what's going on.
There's this cool thing called my DNA light.
Have you seen it, Mitch? No.
Have you heard about it? It's a pretty cool.

(29:30):
I think I'm not sponsored by my DNA, by the way.
I better mention that. I just think it's a really cool
test and my husband and I did itsix months ago and you just get
it from the chemist and it's like a cheek swab, right?
And then you send the sample kitfrom memory, I think it's
$130.00 and you send a sample kit down to Melbourne, there's
geneticists and doctors down there and analyse your DNA for

(29:53):
you. Now people who are listening
right now, just make sure you tick the box right that says
don't store my DNA because you don't want people storing DNA
data. And then the next weekend they
start unlocking data about your genetics and DNA.
So really interesting stuff cameout about me and Jay said, well,
I'll buy on a weekend and we're just like listening to each

(30:13):
other's data. And I'm like, this is so true
about me and you. So, for example, are you someone
who can metabolise coffee prettyquickly?
Does your genetic coding allow that?
So I've got a gene that metabolises caffeine really
quick, which means I can drink coffee all the way up to 2:00 PM
without impacting my deep REM sleep that night.
Jay doesn't have that gene, so he needs to cut it at midday

(30:37):
sleep fragmented Gene. This would be interesting for
you too much. I can so sleep fragmented Gene,
if you have that, I have that. So what that means is that if I
get woken up in the middle of the night by Clara, by our puppy
when we're training her and I had disrupted sleep in about two
or three days, my mental ill health will rear its head.

(30:57):
Right sleep for me. I need a quality 8 hours of
uninterrupted deep sleep. Now my husband doesn't have
that. He can have disrupted sleep the
whole way through, and even though he may be tired, it
doesn't impact his mood. And that is so true.
We see it with both. And I I remind him of that every
night, like when we sleep training our daughter or our

(31:18):
puppy. But it's really interesting,
right? Learning a little things that
your stuff like my body doesn't manufacture iron and vitamin D
and then the building blocks right for serotonin.
So every now and again I need tosupplement with iron, vitamin D
and I take a serotonin reuptake inhibitor for my anxiety because

(31:39):
genetically I've got a really strong vulnerability there.
I just think it's just getting abit of more of a snapshot, isn't
it, of of your body and working with it rather than working up
against it. And we're just also unique with
our with our genetics. So I thought that was pretty
cool, that is. Pretty cool.
I'm definitely going to look into that.
I've done the 23andMe which tells you your heritage, but it

(32:03):
tells you random stuff like you're more likely to have this
hair colour or go bold or whatever, but I would like more
functional things like what you were talking about.
Do you have an enzyme that breaks down coffee?
And what time would be preference to stop?
I think that would be really helpful, but your point around
your biologies permanently trying to give you information.

(32:23):
So just find out a way to hack it or to listen That is is key.
And it's funny like you mentioned the word sleep.
It's such a it's such a term that everyone talks about, but
it is so critical. I'm I'm dating this lovely girl
at the moment and we joke that Ihave narcolepsy.
That's probably not a very PC joke, but I am obsessed with

(32:45):
sleep and I protected at all costs.
And I told her I'm like. During the night, she wants to
cuddle. I might please, no cuddling When
we're conscious. Cuddle, cuddle away before and
after sleep. Totally cool.
But if someone is rolling onto my side and then, like goes to
touch me or grab me, that's gonna wake me up.
That waking up is going to have consequences on my mental

(33:07):
health. Like, I've done a lot of work,
but there is a couple things that I must protect.
And sleep is one of those things.
It is like top three, if that goes, the whole system unfolds.
So I'm like, you know? Obviously at the start it's
pretty personal discussion. She's like why don't you wanna
cuddle? I'm like, this has nothing to do
with you and everything to do with my ability to get up and
help people the next day and or function and have any type of

(33:29):
serotonin that is so true. Man, she gonna love this so my
husband and I don't sleep in thesame room.
We just do. That's my dream.
That's my dream. Oh my God, it's cold.
It's gold and you know like it'sbecause of my sleep, right.
And and Jay is Jane is 6 foot five.
He's really tall and I'm 511, soI'm really tall and in a king

(33:54):
size bed that is a lot of human real estate taking up that king
size bed and Jay snores a bit and I fidget right so I can move
around a lot. And when you've been, I've been
married to him for like 16 years, so I've seen his face a
lot. So I'm like, mate, you just
sleep in the other room so I canget and we're still really
intimate. Like we have such a loving

(34:14):
marriage, a love this guy with my whole heart.
However, he knows how important it is and he loves it because he
sleeps really well. So we both get a good eight
hours and then we just speak really nicely to each other the
next day. And I'm so happy that we're
talking about this because it's such a taboo topic, right?
No one talks about. Like, I can't even imagine if I

(34:36):
had a date again and someone's like trying to.
If someone tried to wake me up in the middle of the night also
to have sex, I would lose my actual shit at them.
I'm like you do not understand right anything.
Yeah, totally. Anything.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, it's. I It's a hard discussion to

(34:57):
have, but it does relate to everything we're talking about
with regard to burnout, mental health and and performance.
Cause your sleep is your recharge to get up the next day
and perform. And I've often spoken about how
like my dream scenario is to have a bedroom of my own
bathroom, my own wardrobe, my own, which doesn't just meet the

(35:19):
sleep criteria but also meets the OCD criteria.
There is still some part of the world that I have complete
autonomy. Self determination and control
and then the rest of the house let's integrate and blah blah
blah. And I I believe my hypothesis is
it builds intimacy because it allows some disc a healthy
space, just like how a fire grows with more oxygen.

(35:42):
But yeah, it's a it's, it's not an easy conversation to have in
the early days of of relationships, but I think
that's a fun little side thoughtduring our discussion, just
around different non traditionalmodalities of of keeping burnout
at Bay that might not be as socially acceptable or practised

(36:03):
such as splitting rooms. I think that's a good footnote.
So I I just before we move on from this three day test cause I
really do like this as kind of afoot in the water to see if this
is something that will self rectify and it was just a break
needed or if something else is going on.
Um, people know that I'm a. The number one way people

(36:26):
describe me is real, which sometimes means I like to
challenge limiting beliefs. An example of this is the B word
is banned from my friendship circle.
Like no one's allowed to say I'mbusy because it's like, fuck,
everyone's busy, right? If you're over the age of 21,
you're busy, you're trading units of time.
So another thing I believe is people who say I can't do that

(36:49):
or fit that in and it's like. Bullshit.
With a little bit of planning and foresight, you can and I can
hear people saying, Oh yeah, imagine me actually taking three
days off to myself to read. I have children, I have a job, I
have a. So can we just break some
limiting beliefs right now and say that it is possible as
someone who's in the position ofall those things, Absolutely.

(37:14):
Everything's a choice, isn't it?And I think the whole thing
around this is like that whole restructure, prioritisation of
whose health is the most important.
And I came up against this all the time.
You know, Chelsea, I'm too busy to take time out for myself.
I'm too busy to go for a massage, I'm too busy to take a
holiday. I'm too busy to fit in 10

(37:35):
minutes of meditation everyday. You know, and Mitch, we both are
very time compressed individuals, right?
Like we, we both have very, verycrazy schedules.
And I think it was my psychologist that really helped
me reframe the game on this in terms of people who feel like
they don't have the time right to actually invest into

(37:55):
themselves. And so she said to me when I was
leaving the hospital after my five week stay and she's like,
you know, Chelsea, I want you tothink about this really
strongly. If you feel like any day that
you are not investing into your physical or mental health, your
emotional health, so you just, you got me just to lock it into
my calendar schedule, right? Because to do lists are good.

(38:16):
But what's even better, I find is putting it into my calendar.
Because one if my team sees a break right at 12:30 when I'm
going to be meditating for 15 minutes, they're going to lock
in something else for me. So they see that you know, 1230
Chelsea is gonna meditation withyourself, not overlap that time
with anything else she needs to recharge her brain and so back.

(38:37):
So circling back to the psychiatrist advice was if you
don't look after yourself every single day if you get sick, and
for me, Mitch, you know other people might get sick and they
get the flu, right? Your body has a different way of
expressing how you get sick whenyou're stressed or for me, hands
down mental health relapse, right.
Whenever I get really crook and I I push myself too hard.

(39:00):
I've been taken off medication or and I've had two relapses
since since my diagnosis of postNatal depression.
I will have a mental health relapse if I get cook and she
said, so who does it impact? If you get sick and I said, well
directly impacts me, right. I have to go down and out for a
good four to five weeks. When I get back on a medication,

(39:20):
I rebuild myself. It's kind of like a sports
injury chapter. Double down on all the self care
that I know. Cancel everything, like all my
social schedules, all my work and I just bang.
I'm really investing into me in those five weeks.
And she said, well, that's not very fair to you, is it?
And she said, but who else does that impact when you're like
that, when you're taking those four or five weeks out?

(39:42):
And I said, well, it directly impacts my daughter Clara, and
it directly impacts my husband Jay.
And she's like, is that fair to them?
Like, do they deserve that? Do they deserve this?
Stressed out, burnt out, anxious.
Mum and I said no, they do not deserve that and she said every
day from now on in shelves you're going to take care of
yourself every single day and schedule into your calendar.

(40:05):
And that was a real light bulb moment for me because sometimes
I feel like, Mitch, you know, people struggle to put
themselves on top of the To Do List.
So if that's you, then I want you to think about someone else
that you love more than yourselfand you do it for them.
And it's such a great intrinsic motivator to get you across the
line. Like I hear all the time, you
know, parents will say, oht die for my children, I'll die for my

(40:27):
kids. And I always think, but would
you get healthy for them? Like, do you want to walk them
down the aisle? Like, do you want to be there
for that graduation? You know, it's this is like
changing the narrative and the mindset of like how are we going
to intrinsically motivate ourselves so we don't end up
there. So well.

(40:49):
Said. Would you die for them or would
you get health healthy for them?That is such a great reframe.
I love that. And yeah, I I've found so far
that coaching people towards self care, the greatest
motivator is helping them think about it.
A lack of it is selfish instead of doing it as selfish because

(41:09):
really, you're the last one to experience the consequence.
Everyone else will be pulled down in the process with you,
and often before you. And so, yeah, if you're too busy
to avoid burnout, then you're gonna be too busy repairing
burnout, essentially. And hopefully that starts to
sink in, because it's one thing to be like, yeah, I get that.

(41:31):
It's another thing to actually just do the things you're
supposed to. Just fucking do the things
you're supposed to. I don't know, like there's a
million ways we could say it, but ultimately it just comes
down to do the things and we're all guilty of it.
I was true. I was supposed to do this.
Parasite Cleanse 6 months ago and I was like, oh it's are you

(41:52):
OK there? It's World Mental Health Day.
It's like, but but. But.
And then eventually I was like, hey dude, just do the thing.
Just stop drinking coffee and carbs and sugar and everything
and start taking these supplements.
Do it four weeks, it'll be done.And now that I'm in flow, as
much as it's hard at the start, I'm like, I'm happy I'm doing
the thing. And I've got a calendar on my

(42:13):
fridge that I've printed out analogue.
I know very non millennial of meand I I have a highlight around
day one, a highlight around day 30, and I cross it off every
day, so I know I'm one inch closer to freedom.
But sometimes it's just. Biting down in the mouthpiece
and getting shit done. 100 percent And you know like it's

(42:38):
it's just that just extreme ownership.
You know, like when people are, it's really, it's really hard,
right, when you're dealing with people who victimise themselves
in their life and but they will not take the ownership of just
just making these small simple changes to take care of
themselves. And you know, when you, when you
were talking about this on on our podcast recently, when

(43:00):
you've been on the rodeo a few times of mental illness, we know
right where we slipped to. So we are very motivated to not
slip back to those darker placesand our whole mission is to stop
people from ever feeling that for the first time, like ever
going down that sort of mental ill health path.
And so it's just, you know, it'sthat whole thing of like.

(43:24):
You're the one like it's in our power.
It's if you don't take, if you don't take time everyday to look
after your Wellness, it's that whole thing.
You will be forced to take care of your illness.
That's just how it is. Like if you did not invest into
this, that's like how safe people who followed themselves
waiting for their retirement gettheir super bang, day two,
retire, heart attack dead. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, right,

(43:50):
like this is your vessel. If you do not take care of this
vessel, you have nowhere else tolive.
Like, this is your home. If you don't take care of it,
where else are you gonna go? And, like, I'm continually
learning Mitch on this journey, even for me, right?
With the last relapse in 2020, my team, I've got the most epic
team around me. A great psychiatrist, a great

(44:12):
psychologist, a great integrative Dr, a great GP.
They all keep me upright. And the last time they tried to
take me off medication and I relapsed.
We're like, OK, we now know for the rest of your life you need
to be on an SSRI. And I'm like, brilliant.
Don't ever take me off this thing.
I bloody love it. I can function like every other

(44:32):
human being. I like we've learned our
lessons. Do not take me off this drug.
And again, it's just that whole reframe of like, brilliant.
Now I know it's just like this bright line.
I know I need that as a part of my toolkit to keep me really
healthy and well. Yes.
I I'm also in the club of a forever SSRI person.

(44:57):
I'm very grateful that I have found a dosage where there is
optimal upside and very little downside and the only reason I
would come off it is because of ego.
Some people don't have that. They want to come off because of
weight gain or sexual libido or numbness or valid reasons.
And I'm a big fan of titrating down before you look at it,

(45:17):
binary approach and all that other stuff.
But you know, one of the things I respect about you most,
Chelsea, is I get to know you more, is you are good at saying
yes and you're good at saying no, like you're good at stating
your needs. And one of the things I was
inspired by on our last chat when I was actually on on your
podcast was. You are good at not doing things

(45:42):
that you could like, for example, if more work was there,
if another speaking gig came up,if another workshop came up.
But you're like, no, I'd like tojust not work tomorrow or I'd
like to go for a swim this afternoon instead of taking that
meeting. And that was really inspiring
for me. And I've sat on that for the
past few weeks and I noticed that I had this inbuilt belief

(46:04):
that if I can do it, I should. And then I.
Thought who? Four.
And I think that comes like in full circle back to our
perfectionist tendencies is, youknow, I'm a big fan of the David
Goggins world and all that of, she's like, stay fucking hard,
keep fucking pushing, you know, No days off, all that stuff.

(46:25):
I'm like, yeah, I subscribe to that.
I like that. But I think personally, my
personal opinion is personalities like that are good
at dragging us closer to the middle.
They're not. We're not actually intended to
live. At that extreme, it's dragging 1
extreme to the middle of people who probably are unmotivated and
lazy and and getting them towards a healthy middle so.

(46:48):
Yeah, I I'm a big fan of pushingand working hard and all that
good stuff, But I'm also a big fan of.
You know, the last few months I've been thinking.
I am not. Taking advantage of the flexible
lifestyle that I could have as abusiness owner and as a speaker.
And you know, part of it is I have a team, so I need to say
yes to more work because that's what I have a team for and all

(47:12):
that stuff. And so why wouldn't I?
And then? I've just been kind of
meditating and sitting on the fact that why do we say things
just because we can? It should be because we want and
we can. Putting needs aside, you know
when we're not in survival mode,it's not just cause we can, it
also has to be because we want. Hmm.

(47:36):
Do you think that ties to? Burnout is that we don't.
Want things enough? We just can do them.
I think so, and I think also. We have this bizarre fallacy
with death. Like we feel like we're going to
live forever, so we we, you know, we work so hard.

(47:57):
And then? We really don't have that much
time here, to be honest on this planet.
Like that's even if you make it to the average life expectancy,
you know, into your 80s. And so I always feel like if I
take these scheduled breaks, which we take every six weeks,
we take a week off. Like I've got all 2024 booked

(48:19):
out. So everyone knows.
The clients know. I can't speak on those
particular weeks because I've got a week off the grid.
And I unplug. I unplug from the world.
I no one can find me. It is the most liberating week
of my life. People that I'm there with, they
get a truly mindful version of me because I'm not on my phone
or addicted to my emails or work.

(48:42):
But I also find that unlocks a lot of creativity and innovation
on those weeks off and then whenI get back in those sprints.
Like I've got good energy, right, because I'm taking those
scheduled right. And that's been, you know, I
think that that's an adjustment I've made over the last sort of
four or five years of like. You know what?

(49:03):
When I turn up for an event, they deserve the best version of
me. And there there's a lot of time
that they're giving up. They're paying us a lot of
money. I wanna be really high value for
them and give them the best thatI've got and the only way in
which that I can do that is by taking these proper breaks and

(49:23):
and also just reframing of that whole thing that we're talking
about at destination versus the journey.
I've just enjoying the journey and and what we're on and. 40
weeks of work a year for me is is enough.
You know, in in that Sprint whenI get back and I am on and hard
like I'm I'm in Goggins mode forthose six weeks.
But then I know, you know, I've got light at the end of the

(49:46):
tunnel and you get the anticipatory, you know, that
beautiful serotonin flush about two weeks before you go on a
trip because you're imagining yourself there.
So you're already in a good mood, don't you think?
Like, even me just telling you about Bali with my daughter next
month, We're talking about that all the time.
And we're having a shower together.
And I'm just super pumped. And that's like 3 weeks away

(50:06):
when I'm taking her to Bali. And that's already making me
happy, you know? Uh.
Yeah, I think it's just a protection strategy, mate.
Like in terms of, just because we can doesn't mean that we
should. Hmm.
We should be just because we canand we feel amazing and we're
like raring for it. Then we do it.

(50:27):
But to be able to keep that sustainability of that energy
and longevity in this game, you need to be having, we all need
to be having like scheduled breaks.
So speaking about. Can and should Real
conversations is all about how we connect with people better,
particularly during hard times, and knowing how to be a good

(50:48):
supporter at work and at home. What what do you what is your
advice to someone who is supporting another human through
burnout or a perfectionist type tendency?
A type of overachiever person. What are some tips you have to
connect with them more effectively?

(51:10):
OK, so I think always when someone's going through burnout
or they're going through a mental ill health or.
Is number 1. Unbelievable love for that
particular person. So I always feel like if there's
someone in your life that's experiencing something pretty
hectic at the moment, the best thing that they need is just one

(51:35):
person in their life, right? There's one person that truly
loves them that's there for support and then it's easing
their load, So #1. How can I help you out right
now? You seem to have a lot on your
plate. Can I drop you off a meal?
Can I come over and look after your dog while you go out for,

(52:00):
you know, do something nice for yourself #2 Depending where they
are right, where they're burningout, or whether they're going
through, they're spiralling intoa mental illness. #2 Hey, let's
go see an expert together, right?
We probably go speak to your doctor and speak to a
psychologist or therapist to getus some really unique tools to

(52:22):
help make this period of time a little bit more smooth.
So that would be number two. I would say that probably in my
mind too, yeah. Yeah, I think the the highlight
there is how do you ease someones load when they're
feeling burnt out because one ofthe biggest things is.

(52:45):
Overwhelm they're experiencing. I don't have enough time to get
the amount of tasks output done.Yeah, so in in our community we
teach, which I think is implied and what you do, but just to
call it out to make sure that that my guys are understanding,
listen 1st and always show compassion.

(53:06):
Well, before we get into the actual fixing.
But when it comes to fixing, I think doing things that reduce
their load is a very good thing.For for me it's also about going
back and inquiring. Why and where's?
All this drive coming from, so you're burning out, OK you've
got a lot on and I would curiously just kind of try and

(53:28):
unpick the thread of what's the story you're telling yourself
that's driving this volume in this pace.
If I don't XY will occur. So we once we get the X&Y,
pretty much everything else is going to unlock and start to.
We can work backwards from that and say is it actually true?

(53:49):
And or is that actually the right story to be telling
yourself? Is it helpful?
I love that and. For me, sometimes it's adjusting
the the inside out more than it is the outside cause.
Let's address the cause. Why is this charge here?
Why is there this bite? Why is there this must must

(54:11):
achieve, must do beyond survival.
In my opinion, it is ego. So what ego validation are you
missing that we might be able tofind in a more healthy,
sustainable way than 15 hour days for the next six months?
You know. Um, but what about companies,
Charles? What are you seeing with

(54:32):
companies and are there any strategies and tactics that any
of your clients do that are effective in maintaining
psychological safety and preventing burnout over work,
etcetera? Yeah, I think and back to what
you're just saying, Mitch, I love that getting to the core
root of the problem within rather than a band aid solution.

(54:55):
I love that the unpicking, the unthreading that's so
beautifully said. Love that.
So with the thank you with the large corporates that we work
with, what I see work well is I always think that it starts at
the top, right, the leadership team.

(55:16):
So if the leadership team is saying, hey, we value you, we
value your health, your happiness here at this
organisation, we value your wellbeing.
However, we're going to pepper you with emails at 2:00 AM and
then we're going to send them onthe weekends.
That's a complete dissonance between there's no Internet
devaluing, there's no integrity,right.

(55:37):
There's no actual alignment hereof what they're saying versus
their behaviour and what they'redoing.
So the companies that do it really well, they start at the
top with their leadership team and they create the culture
there. OK, let's start instilling some
rules that that the tools are down.
Even if you are someone who is doing, say you're a night owl
and you do your best work at 789PM from now on, your scheduling

(55:58):
emails at 8:30 the next day, youcannot send the team emails at
night time. Like there's just like these
blanket rules, right? They go out.
So they're starting to adhere totake care of their staff.
So there's some nice etiquette rules there amongst the
leadership team. Then #2, the vulnerability
piece. I think true leadership having a

(56:19):
piece of authenticity and vulnerability, whether it's
someone they were talking about,workplace well being where
people are quite. Some someone's willing to open
up, right, and talk about maybe it's their lived experience,
maybe it's sharing someone else's experience and that
builds that connection piece. #3then on say having whether it's

(56:43):
within the organisation and they've got people who are
people in culture, HR who can doparticular tools and stuff,
what's getting external speakersthat come in that are experts in
their particular space and they come in and start giving really
practical science based tools tohelp that organisation start to
thrive. It's kind of not the one and
done thing though anymore. You know, sometimes having a big

(57:06):
keynote speech is great, but I think the continuum of, OK,
we've done that. What's next?
So we're embedding these on a foundational level over a longer
period of time as things like having your dedicated, you know,
EAP there, but encouraging people to utilise that.
It's things like having people within the organisation that
have mental health first aid training and so.

(57:30):
I think that corporate Australiaare doing a better job.
I do like ever since I started up EQ Mines in 2716.
There was no one spoke about it.Like no one really spoke about
mental ill health. No one really knew what
mindfulness was, and it just wasn't a thing.
It was like copper cement. Pull your socks up, harden up

(57:53):
your pussy. If you say anything, you know,
this is like some external companies that were sort of more
in anyway. I won't name who they are, but
just a really different stigma around mental illness, right?
Yeah. And I think the conversations
changed, which is brilliant. I really do think that.

(58:13):
But I still think there needs more.
There's so much more to be done in this space.
How about you, Mitch? What are you saying?
I mean you work in the exact same area, like what are you
seeing that's being done well orneeds more work?
Yeah, I agree with. You that.

(58:33):
There's companies that are role modelling it and looking out
over the long term sustainability as opposed to
just a tokenistic gesture. Companies that are integral what
they say they believe in, particularly the leaders tops
down, are showing that that is. True.

(58:54):
And I think. Yeah, another.
Another thing that you touched on is workplace practises that
become part of cultural norms that showcase that we're
actively trying to mitigate psychological injury.
We're not trying to burn you outand.
One of the other things I I I believe in is managers who

(59:15):
manage the person, not the style.
So what I mean by that is you take a unique approach to every
single person that is in your team and getting to know how
they perform best. If you were, if you know that
everyone in your team wants to do a good job, wants to
contribute, wants to give you everything they have, IE they're

(59:35):
engaged. If you know that they're engaged
and motivated, then your job is to keep that happening at a
person by person level. Like if I know my team member is
better in the morning, not in the afternoon, then I will stop
slacking them at 4:00 as opposedto six.
You know, it's not a blanket rule for everyone.
If I know that their love or their care language is words

(59:58):
affirmation, not acts of service, then I'll make sure
that I give that feedback. So.
Getting to know that person on adeeper level allows you to bring
the best out of them over the long term and and that
connection is like glue resilience glue against burnout
I believe. I think you're SPOT.

(01:00:18):
On religious all human beings, right?
We wanna feel connected. We wanna feel sane.
We wanna feel heard. I love that you align to those
love languages. That's super cool.
You know, it's really interesting Mitch.
We are, we have a policy at EQ Minds.
It's a it's not a public knowledge, but it's an unwritten
company rule and it's called theno dickhead policy, that is any

(01:00:42):
you might have the same, but anyany company that doesn't
actually believe in mental ill health, you know, I've had
organisations, and this is a fewyears ago, where the bike can
you come over the right look andfeel for us?
You're gonna be great for the shareholders, but really we
think the guys are just a bunch of pussies, right?
They just need to have a couple of cement.
And I'm like, do you know what Iactually do for what?

(01:01:02):
I'm so sorry. This is a definitely a no.
Like, it's a hard no for us. And then, you know, you fly home
and then they could drip all thefeet.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, How's your attitude?
Has your values changed? And the top leadership, are
they, you know, are they starting to get a bit more of an
insight? No, they're still kind of feel
that it's it's definitely a hardnote because for me to be able

(01:01:26):
to walk in there and know that that culture and that leadership
team does not believe in it. And that really broke my heart
because you know later that yearthey did have a suicide within
that organisation. And I'm like that is so
horrific. And it's also like I would not
stand for that kind of like attitude and behaviour, like
it's such a real thing. And so, you know, we used to

(01:01:48):
charge a tax that was a lot moremoney to work with us, if you.
You know, just a bit of a pain and just also didn't believe him
into it. But people don't believe him
until it's a definite no. But if anyone's bit of a pain to
my team as well, it's just to know still because your whole
vibe like you work with amazing human beings like I remember
that company. I didn't go ahead with that

(01:02:09):
company because we're like no way.
You just don't believe him into like mental health.
This is no, this is a no. And my husband's like, I'm
really proud of you for knockingback that massive financial
contract. Was at the time was still very
small and I'm like babe, that's not what I'm I'm so passionate
about this stuff. So that door closed.

(01:02:29):
But then next day Estee Lauder, they they called me and we've
worked on for five years and they are amazing humans and like
good people they hang out together.
So if you are working with good humans they then refer you to
good humans. So I think that's just a good
life philosophy anyway. Like, just hang out with good
people. Yeah, I think that goes a long

(01:02:51):
ways hanging out with good people and I believe karmically
some people might not. But karmically when you say no
to the to unaligned energy, it does feedback the right energy
and return whether you believe that.
I would, I would bank a bunch ofmy career on whether it's called

(01:03:12):
karma or luck or whatever. But making being a good person
now pays dividends later, but weshould be doing it without the
dividends anyway. So as we as we ties the the knot
on this conversation that has produced many dividends, what is
the greatest piece of advice you've ever been given?

(01:03:36):
Ohe greatest. Piece of advice is from my mum.
I kind of ties into what we're just talking about actually from
my mum and I received my first mobile phone, Nokia 5210, age
19. This thing was a brick like
would overheat when you'd use it.
Had no like app process that hadjust numbers and you know, love
it. I'm thinking about going back to

(01:03:57):
the that phone. Anyway, my mum says, like,
darling, now you've got these. Fine.
Every spring, September. So my mum's a minimalist, right?
If you walked up into my bedroom, Mitch, like
everything's just nicely hung up.
It's just no clutter. I just, it's better for my
headspace, right? And so she's like every

(01:04:18):
September. So from a sustainable
environmental perspective, by high quality pieces less of
right? So just spring clean that every
September but also huge fan but also spring clean your mobile
phone. And I'm like, what do you mean
Mum? And she's like, darling, anyone

(01:04:38):
that is toxic or bitchy or when you walk away and you feel like
there's a knife in your back. Delete their number.
And I'm like, wow, that's reallylike, that's really hard.
That's really harsh, Mum. And she's like, it might sound
harsh, my sweetheart, but that is vital for your well being.
The people you keep in this life, They will influence

(01:05:01):
everything. And I've never forgotten that I
haven't had to spring clean my phone for like 15 years.
I've got the biggest amount of legends in my network.
But I thought. That was just.
Pure shit. I mean, she's got so many pure
gold moments for me, but that was one of them.
I've never forgotten it because.It's just everything they Your
network influences everything. It's spring.

(01:05:23):
Clean your circle. Sprinkling your.
Circle. Yeah.
Love it. I love that smart Mama.
Well chills. Thank you so much for spending
the time with me today. Where can people find out more
about you and EQ minds? Thanks so much.
Mitch, honestly, I love what you're doing out there.

(01:05:44):
Thinkingminds.com is our website.
You'll find us on all the socialmedia platforms.
Chelsea Pottinger on LinkedIn, Instagram would love to have you
part of our community too. And Mitch, so grateful for you
mate. Like I'm so glad we've connected
in this universe. This is gold for me.

(01:06:04):
Likewise friend for life. Absolutely.
Cheers. Thank you.