Dani Lombard - PR powerhouse, unapologetic truth-teller, and lifelong “friend collector” - joins psychologist and HOMS clinical director Michaela Overman for her first-ever podcast appearance. But this isn’t about publicity. It’s about pulling the curtain back.
In this raw and revealing conversation, Dani shares the story she’s never told publicly - her decades-long journey with anxiety, panic attacks, and the shame she carried behind a high-functioning, always-laughing persona. From a life-changing panic attack on a San Francisco street corner at 21, to quietly spiraling into agoraphobia while seemingly "thriving" in PR, Dani explores how she masked deep mental anguish behind success, sarcasm, and survival.
Together, Michaela and Dani unpack what it really means to heal, why taking medication isn’t failure, and how two realities can coexist: being both okay and not okay. Vulnerable, funny, and disarmingly honest, this episode is a powerful reminder that mental health doesn't look one way—and that you're still worthy, even if you're not wearing a medal.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us, inside us. I've been very interested in
this problem for a long long time.
Something settles. Hi, and welcome to the Heart on
my Sleeve podcast. Today I am your host, Michaela
Overman, psychologist and lead clinical director of Heart on My
(00:45):
Sleeve charity. And today I am joined by one of
my really good friends, but alsothe owner of Stark Raven PR
Thank you so much Danny Lombard for joining us today.
It's a pleasure to be here, Kayla.
I don't do many podcasts so we're not sure how this is going
to go. We will get comfy or cosy.
Cosy as my son would say. I guess I wanted to start the
(01:10):
podcast in understanding you just a little bit better and not
the Danny that I might or the public might actually know.
If I take away your job title, how would you present yourself
to somebody? How would you describe yourself
to somebody? Job title taken away.
(01:32):
It's a it's an interesting question because I, I think
there's a lot of elements of me that would be exactly the same
regardless. But probably who I am
authentically away from work is a big old goose.
Yeah. I, you know, I love to laugh.
I love to be silly. I'm very gregarious.
(01:53):
I have, you know, my husband calls me a friend collector.
I I love, you know, love meetingnew people, love building
friendships and relationships with people, which is actually a
lot of what PR is about too. But obviously I must also be
professional and responsible andreliable and all those things,
(02:14):
which is, which is very important when people are paying
you to do a job for them and youknow, take that very seriously.
But yeah, I, I, I don't think I'm a completely different
person at work than I am in reallife.
But yeah, I'm, I'm pretty happy.Go lucky outgoing.
(02:35):
You know, I think a lot of my friends would say that I was
funny and yeah, just like havingfun.
Yeah. Yeah, I would.
I would say the funniest human, honestly, even in situations
where you probably wouldn't expect someone to be funny, not
appropriate or appropriate. She is funny, so funny.
(02:55):
But what are some some principles, some values that you
feel that you live by, especially when the going gets
tough? Dear God, I wish we would have
gone through these questions beforehand.
What it principles, principles and values when the going gets
tough, I, I don't think I spend a lot of time navel gazing.
(03:15):
I think when probably my defaultposition during hard times or
stressful times is just to, you know, go into a mode of just
getting the job done, doing whatneeds to be done and realising
that maybe the more time you spend sort of thinking about it
and dwelling on it, that that's not necessarily helpful, perhaps
(03:38):
to my detriment in ways as well.But yeah, I think I think I'm
guided by, yeah, just just what what needs to happen here?
What what's the outcome that I'mlooking for and what, what needs
to happen to get that done. And obviously, I'm fortunate
enough to have had a, a, a pretty good life without
(04:01):
enormous, you know, enormous challenges that I'm sure other
people would have faced where that, you know, that's a
strategy that's worked for me. I'm sure there are situations
where where maybe that's not possible.
And I laugh a lot, you know, andI think if I think of some of
the hardest times, I lost my dadnearly three years ago
(04:22):
relatively quickly. And we got through a lot of that
through laughter as well, which again, is probably not not
always an appropriate strategy, but sometimes you just need
that, that, you know, valve thatyou can release.
And so, yeah, that's probably a good one for me too.
So I guess the key principle or value there is laughter's at the
(04:46):
heart of everything. Yeah.
You say you haven't been througha lot comparatively to other
people. And I guess what goes through my
mind is, I mean, I find it interesting when someone says
that, especially when I know probably even on the surface
what you have been through. But when I do know that, and I
(05:08):
think it's so interesting that that's your perspective that
it's, it's not a big deal. You know, it's, it's not much to
what other people have been through.
But even just what you mentioned, like losing your dad
three years ago, you were reallyclose to your father and you had
a really special relationship with him.
That's something that, well, I could say everybody goes
through, but we don't know how life turns out.
(05:31):
But that's something that a lot of people don't go through when
they're your age. That's a really young age to
lose a parent. And it's also not just a typical
parent child relationship. You had a really close connected
relationship. I mean, I, I know that today
we're going to talk about a few different things.
(05:51):
And I, I kind of to, to shake things up just a tiny bit here.
I guess it's like before this podcast episode, I was reading
through questions that we as a team are heart on my sleeve,
decide on of, you know, how to kind of get the podcast episode
going. And I'm looking at it.
(06:11):
And so many of them are how to make it lively and make it laugh
and, you know, just kind of break the ice a little bit.
And I just looked at them all and I'm like, I, I feel like for
all my other guests, they're going to be appropriate.
But let's just dive right in. But they're almost not for you
because I'm like, we can do thateasily.
(06:32):
That is who you are. And I guess the essence of what
I wanted to achieve today is, isDanny Lombard not with that, I
don't know that persona on Oh dear, which is Oh dear, Oh dear.
So I wanted to, I mean, if you if you're listening to this, you
(06:54):
know, the kind of person that she is, you can hear it.
She's lively. She's the life of the party.
She's utterly hilarious. And I think that's that shines
through. The second you probably listen
to the podcast or spend one minute with Danny, I want to
just dive straight into understanding what came up
(07:14):
really briefly in a conversationand what's triggered you being
one of the guests in this podcast.
Talk me through, I guess, the moment in your life when you
realise you know how I'm feelingright now, what I'm
experiencing. I don't actually know if it's
normal. Yeah, well, I would have been 21
(07:42):
and you know who I am today And and this, you know, person that
you talk about is who I always was.
You know that there's never beenI I've never had a great
personality transformation or, you know, anything like that.
But I had been travelling, I'd been backpacking with a
girlfriend for three months in Europe.
(08:03):
You know, we thought we were so grown up, but a lot back on it
now. We were like little babies, just
finished uni and you know, it saved up enough money to to make
our way through Europe for threemonths, which was really cool
and very unnerving as well. And I think I had a, you know,
there's probably an anxiety present in me my whole life that
(08:23):
was never out of control and that never really, I never, you
know, this is, this is in I think it were 2002 thousand.
Nobody talked about mental health and nobody talked about
anxiety. Anxiety wasn't a condition.
It was not something I knew whatdepression was, certainly didn't
know that anxiety was something.But I kind of look, you know, I
(08:47):
guess I can look back on elements of my life and kind of
recognise where that might have been present.
But I just, you know, so, so there were definitely periods
during that three months where I, I remember I didn't really
drink. You know, a lot of, you know,
young backpackers, you're drinking a lot, you'd be
partying a lot. But I always had a sense that
this is probably not safe. You know, a lot of the places
that we were staying in when youbackpack through Europe are in
(09:08):
like shitty parts of town. And, you know, there were no
mobile phones there. And we didn't, we certainly
didn't have a mobile phone. If you rang your parents, it was
once a week on a pay phone. You know, you'd have to go into
an Internet cafe to get Internetservice.
I'm making myself sound 700 years old, but I am.
So anyway, I guess it leading upto this period, you know, yeah,
I'd, I'd had to do something that was really brave.
(09:30):
And, you know, I was still living at home.
And so to be out of home for three months and with me and my
girlfriend just muddling our wayalong and, and trying not to
get, you know, murdered or fall into a ditch somewhere that,
that was probably a little bit of stress that you're carrying
around, but not in a way that I,you know, recognised.
And then I had a, a working visafor Canada.
So my plan was I would then go on to Toronto, I'd work for a
(09:51):
few months and then I'd do what every Aussie does and go and
work in ski fields and Whistler.But I'd met a boy in a beer hall
in Germany who was American. And so we had, we'd kind of met
up a couple of times through Europe.
And then we'd made a plan that Iwould go and visit him in San
Francisco kind of as soon as I got to Toronto, before I started
getting a job and that kind of thing, and went to visit him for
(10:13):
two weeks. And in that period of time, he
was at work every day. So I would go, cool, I'll just
go sightseeing. I'll cruise around the city and,
you know, go and see things. And obviously felt really
confident doing that because I've been away for three months.
But if I look at that period, obviously there's an enormous
amount of uncertainty. So I'd finished my three months
travelling. I was, you know, going to go
back to Toronto and have to finda job.
(10:33):
And then, you know, I was wildlyin love with a, you know, with
a, a new guy and what, what's going to happen.
And I live in Australia and you live here and how's that all
going to work? So and then it just just a lot
of time on my hands, obviously, you know, 8-8 hours a day by
myself. So if I kind of look back on it
now, I go, it kind of makes sense why maybe the
circumstances that might have led to this.
(10:54):
But I was cruising along one dayin San Francisco and I had what
I now know to be a panic attack.And luckily for me, my mother
had worked as a, you know, kind of receptionist, office manager
for a psychiatrist for many, many years.
So honestly, I'm not sure what, what I would have thought if I
didn't have my mum to tell this,but I said, you know, this
(11:16):
happened and I don't even reallyremember what I felt like, but,
but I was freaking out. You know, I think panic attacks
present really differently for different people.
But for me, you know, the, the, the heart rate, the, you know,
racing heart, the, and just thisfeeling of what, what I feel
crazy. I just feel I, I don't know
what's happening to me right now.
Like whatever it was, I'm like, this is not normal.
(11:38):
I've never experienced anything like this is horrible.
I'm all alone again. I didn't even have a mobile
phone to her to ring my boyfriend and say, help me, I'm
on a street corner somewhere. But anyway, I would have at some
point rang my mum and, and said this, this happened and it was
really weird. And she said, Oh, it sounds like
you had a panic attack. And I said, what, what, what's a
panic attack? And, you know, we talked about
(11:59):
it And then I remember in that, but I immediately knew that
wasn't, that wasn't normal, whatever that was, it was
heinous and horrible. And of course, the next day off
he goes to work and off I go under in the city.
And then I, there was a very prevalent terror of it happening
again. And, you know, Fast forward the
(12:21):
next, you know, year and a half,two years, I ended up living in
Toronto for a few months. We would go back and forth to
see each other. I ended up moving to San
Francisco where I lived with himfor a bit over a year before he
came back to Australia. And in that period, I would have
had them infrequently, you know,I'd have a panic attack and then
(12:41):
go, oh, there we go. I had a panic attack and carry
on with my life. And it didn't seem to be
something that would really interfere with my life in
between. But then again, you know,
hindsight is 2020. Nobody talked about this at the
time. There was no podcasts.
There was, you know, the Internet existed, but it just so
for for context, I'm 46 years old.
(13:02):
This happened when I was 21. I've never talked about this
other than to friends, right. So the fact that it's taken me
this long to go, I'm actually really comfortable with clients,
potential clients knowing this about me and them not thinking
less of me. It's taken this long, but we now
thankfully live in an environment in, in Australia at
least, where mental health is really normalised.
(13:25):
It's discussed relatively openly.
I think there's still a lot of shame and stigma around it, but
it's a completely different time.
So back in 2002, thousand and one 2002, I didn't read anything
up on it. I didn't research it.
I was just like, oh, this is just something I get now.
Cool, no problem. But then what would happen is
after each time the the brain will sort of try and go, well,
(13:48):
what what caused that to happen?And then I'll just avoid that
thing next time. So, oh, it happened in a movie
cinema. So I will now be very alert when
I go to the movies. And then you probably start
having panic attacks at the movies and then you go, well,
this, this is not an example that happened to me, but oh, I
had one on a bus. Oh, I don't like public
transport. I'll avoid public transport,
(14:09):
things like that. And I now know that, that, that,
that avoidant behaviour is very symptomatic of the, the issue
and also very likely to make youworse.
And so Fast forward that period of time and it got to a point
where I was living back in Sydney.
The, the, my, you know, we're not together anymore, but my
(14:29):
boyfriend at the time, we're living together.
If you looked at my life, everything tickety Boo working
in my first job in PR great company, great colleagues, great
boss, great opportunities, lovely boyfriend, lovely
relationship. I had a beautiful supportive
family, gorgeous friends, everything you could want and my
(14:49):
mental health was deteriorating over a period of time.
You know, what do they talk about?
If you if you put a frog in coldwater and you boil it slowly,
the frog doesn't know that it's,you know, doesn't realise what's
happening. So it was very much that and I
guess it got to the point where they, they had become very
frequent and I had become what Inow know to be like very
(15:11):
agoraphobic, which I'd thought agoraphobia was like fear of
crowds and fear of sort of wide open spaces.
I didn't, I didn't, you know, and you'll be able to give a
better definition than me because I actually don't know
what the definition is. But I had just started to avoid
more and more and more scenariosbecause I was so scared that
they would trigger panic in me. So I'd started driving to work
(15:33):
at great expense, parking in thecity at great expense, so I
didn't have to be on public transport.
I didn't like going anywhere kind of crowded or busy because
I felt that that would trigger me.
I had to drive myself everywhere.
I didn't like the idea of being getting a ride with a friend
because what if I needed to leave?
So my thing was always that if Ihad the panic attack or need to
(15:54):
leave where I was, so I would need to know that I could leave.
And, you know, I just started toset up my life with all of these
little, in all these little waysthat I thought I was supporting
myself, but I was actually making myself a lot worse.
And because I didn't, I didn't get any help and didn't talk to
anyone about it. I didn't understand that the
(16:14):
things that felt intuitive to meto protect myself were actually
quite damaging. And again, my mum had said to
me, you know, maybe you should go and see a psychologist.
Absolutely not, absolutely not, not I, I will not do that again.
It was not a normal thing to do.I was like, I'm not, there's
nothing wrong with me. I'm not, that's not, I'm not
doing that. Absolutely not.
(16:35):
Eventually got to a point where I was like, OK, I'm not going
very well. I will see a psychologist.
Unfortunately, this woman encouraged all of these
behaviours and told me that theywere they were wonderful.
And and so that didn't help. And then, you know, I continued
to continue to to get worse. And then it wasn't until my mom
said, you know, there's a psychiatrist that works at the
(16:58):
practise that I work at who specialises in anxiety and
panic. And, you know, I see lots of
young girls coming in. By this stage, I was probably
2223. And, you know, they're in these
well dressed young girls. Like they look just like you.
And I was like, absolutely not. No, absolutely not.
Anyway, eventually I was like, literally lock me away and throw
away the key. Like I cannot function anymore.
So those sort of panic attacks that were few and far between
(17:21):
had become, you know, pretty much daily occurrences and
turned into, yeah, I suppose generalised anxiety all the
time. This is so on edge kind of not
knowing when it was going to happen.
So I'll finish talking now. But I knew that I think with
with the case of something like panic attacks, they do feel so
(17:42):
extreme that it is very clear that this isn't normal and we're
out of time. So thank you for having me.
So that I guess when you startedfeeling like it's it's not
normal. Well, no, you said from the
beginning you knew it wasn't normal.
(18:03):
So it's not really the differentiation between suddenly
something ticked over. You had enough panic attacks
where you went, oh, this isn't normal.
You knew it from the get go. Do you think it was?
I don't know. You're in denial that you
couldn't just conquer it yourself, that you couldn't.
I mean, I'm trying really hard to not know you like, you know,
(18:27):
I, I, I want to not just assume because I know you're a real go
getter. You're, you're a high achiever.
And I'm wondering, you know, is,is there a part of you that
always knew that it wasn't normal, but you just kept
thinking, I'll do it by myself. I can deal with it.
I can sort it out 100. Percent.
(18:47):
Yeah, 100%. I guess it sort of becomes
normal after a while if it keepshappening and then you go, oh,
it's not such a big deal. I don't think I had any idea how
much worse it could get. And then again, because it
slowly, slowly, I didn't see bits of my life being taken away
from me. And when I look back on it now,
(19:09):
and there was a moment where I really reached a point where I
didn't feel I could carry on doing it by myself.
I'll tell the story. So my, my boyfriend and I had
gone to play tennis after work or tennis courts across the
road. So my point is, I'm still going
(19:29):
to work. I'm playing tennis after work,
right? So I'm look like a normal person
in the world. I, I've got the energy and
wherewithal to play tennis afterwork.
And we were sitting down after playing tennis.
And I said to him, do you ever, do you ever like wonder, like,
what the point of being alive is?
And he just looked at me so kindof sadly and said, whoa, he was
(19:53):
at a Med school, by the way, Andhe was real, sweetheart.
And he said, whoa, just to, likebe alive, like, just to
experience life. And I was like, yeah, but why?
Like, what's the point? Like, why?
You know, what do you have to just keep getting out the next
day and doing again? Yeah, you don't think about
that. And he said, no.
(20:14):
And I said, why do I think aboutthat?
And he said, babe, because I think you're depressed.
And I have never felt so instantaneously depressed in my
life than hearing that because Iam not that person.
And I, you know, so I think thatthat the depression anxiety for
(20:39):
a lot of people and certainly for me go very hand in hand.
Life becomes very depressing when you stop doing everything
that you love and enjoy and you live in a state of perpetual
turmoil and anxiety. That's not fun.
But that acknowledgement that I think something's wrong with me.
I mean, I could hardly get out of bed the next morning.
I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it.
(21:00):
I'm like, how has this happened to me?
And it was really at that point where I was like, I just, I'm
out of bullets. I got nothing.
I don't know. And it sounds so dumb now.
What do you mean you're out of bullets?
You didn't even try anything yet, you know, But it just
didn't seem. It was not talked about.
The options that we have now were not visible.
You didn't watch people on reelstalking about stuff.
(21:22):
You didn't hear celebrities talking about it.
You didn't listen to countless podcasts.
You didn't have idols and peoplethat you looked up to and
respected that would tell you about it.
So to me it was an enormous defect and weakness and
something was horribly wrong with me and I really was
terrified that I was going crazyand all of that tied into a nice
(21:46):
little bow was not a good place to land.
But that's what it took for me to go, OK, I'll I don't care,
I'll do whatever. And at that point I went to say
a psychiatrist that my mum had talked about that specialised in
anxiety and when on medication. So when your boyfriend said that
it's a moment of feeling sane and at the same time shattering
(22:10):
your life into 1000 places, yeah, Yeah.
Because you'd kind of, I guess that Spotlight have been trying
to go on that for a while and you're ignoring it.
While the world burns. Yeah.
Yeah, very much. So, and all of your coping
mechanisms that you were doing that, I mean, I can't believe
there was a therapist that told you that that was a good thing
(22:31):
to do. You're essentially just teaching
yourself with all of these coping mechanisms that it's that
coping mechanism that kept you alive.
It's that coping mechanism that made the bad thing not happen.
So you're consistently just reinforcing the shitty
behaviours. And I say.
Shitty No 100. Percent.
(22:51):
Your brain is just getting this feedback loop on repeat that,
oh, OK, so because we avoided the elevator, the elevator
didn't crash. It's not because the mechanics
of the elevator, you know, did their job or, you know, because
we drove home on our own and we didn't go with a friend.
We didn't have a panic attack. You know your brain is just
(23:13):
always getting that message thatyou must be in control of every
single tiny little thing. And it's exhausting.
Exhausting. I'm just so surprised that you
did manage to have the energy togo to work and play tennis.
As you said, like it. It kind of shows you how much of
(23:34):
A burden you were masking. Oh yeah.
Like you just slapped that big band aid on there and just kept
ignoring it. And I was terrified of anyone
knowing. I had one friend that I would
talk to about it and honestly, if it wasn't for my mum knowing
about, you know, she'd obviouslytype up all the reports from the
(23:56):
psychiatrist. That was her job.
So she would read about all kinds of things and all kinds of
problems. I really don't know what what
would have, what it would have taken if I didn't have someone
there to say, hey, you know, you've got options.
You know, you could take medication.
I mean, the thought of taking medication for me was like,
well, you might as well just liedown and give up.
Like to me, that was the end of the road and I reached the end
(24:17):
of the road. But to me that was like, well,
you've, you've to complete failure if you need to take
medication. It's so daft.
That's right. But I really felt that.
And I didn't know anyone who took medication for depression
or anxiety. I'd never heard anyone talk
about it. It felt So yeah, it, it.
But. But again, she told me what my
(24:38):
options were. And eventually I reached a point
where I'm like, OK, well, I'm ready to call in reinforcements
because what I'm doing is not working.
But I don't know how I would have found out about that.
I suppose I would have gone to my GP.
And do you want to hear something funny?
I there were many physical things wrong with me in the last
probably 6 to 8 months before I got help, none of which are
(25:00):
related to what was happening. So I was had horrible like
heartburn and indigestion, horrible on medication for that
right? Didn't know what was setting it
off. Sometimes I eat this happens
sometimes I eat that you know, couldn't work it out.
Went to the GPGP, put me on medication for acid reflux.
Then I was having these, you know, dizzy spells.
(25:22):
Went to the JP about that. I've noticed some dizzy spells.
Well, I don't know why this is me.
And he'd say to me, are you stressed?
And I'd go, no, because I was like, stressed People are like
men in suits that come home fromwork and go, I'm stressed.
Like I was 22. I didn't really have any stress
in my life. So I was like, no, I'm, I don't,
I'm not stressed. I don't, everything's cool.
(25:43):
And then I don't know, there wassome other thing as well.
I think I went in for three separate things and the fourth
time when I went in howling going, I need a referral for a
psychiatrist. He said, why didn't you tell me?
I was like, I didn't think it was related.
I didn't think it was relevant and and all of those things just
went away. So the the the mind body
connection as well of like beingin that state of pretty much
(26:04):
permanent fight or flight, how taxing that is on your body as
well with having a lot of other effects physically still don't
recognise it. I mean, I, you know, we were,
and you know, I'm talking about the early 2000s.
Imagine people who were going through this in the 70s or the
80s or whatever. You know, we don't know what we
don't know. But it was just flying blind
(26:27):
completely. And other than my mum having
this little bit of knowledge, but that's I guess the thing
that gave me the path towards like, maybe there's someone who
can help me. Having your mum with that
understanding, do you think thatit shifted you from feeling, as
you said, crazy and feeling likeOK well there is an
(26:48):
understandable valid reason why this could be happening and kind
of got your brain away from thinking holy shit I'm going
bonkers. Absolutely not not.
I thought I was crazy. I thought I was just giving in
to the fact that I'm crazy. No, I was.
I was. And so first appointment with
the shrink and you fill out a form, if anyone listening to
(27:10):
this has been, you know, been toAI, don't know, do psychologists
do it to get you to fill out theanxiety depression checklist?
Yeah. So I didn't know what that was.
So tick, tick a zero to five. How often do you feel this?
555-5555? Very often.
All the time. All the time, All the time.
And as I was filling it out, it was actually the first moment of
relief that I had because I was like, oh, my God, how do they
(27:32):
know about all these things thatI'm feeling?
I honestly thought I was a rare case never before seen by
medical science. I swear to God, I'd never heard
of anyone that that had gone through this.
So when they were ticking off listing the symptoms, I, I
couldn't, I felt, I was like, Ohmy God, they didn't know about
(27:53):
this. So that was the first moment of
relief. And then the second moment of
relief was I had, I said to the doctor, I just don't know why
this is happening to me. I don't know why this is
happening to me. I don't know why.
And she said, well, it doesn't matter.
We don't need to know why, right?
As a psychologist, you're going to probably think that's
interesting. But that was the thing that I
was fixated on. And what she said to me in that
(28:14):
moment is we don't need to know why to get you to feel better.
Like the why can come later. And to me, I was like, oh, oh,
OK. Like I thought, I'm going into
two years of intensive psychoanalysis before I'm going
to feel any sense of relief. And what she, you know,
obviously dealing with people with anxiety who are desperately
(28:36):
seeking answers and overthinkingand overthinking and
overthinking, that's probably not the right time when they're
in that peak state, I'm guessingto go into deep level analysis
with them. So yeah, that was that was just,
you know, but even then she saidto me, what what do you think is
going to happen when you have a panic attack?
Do you think you're going to have a heart attack?
(28:56):
I go, no, she goes, do you thinkyou're going to vomit?
I go nap. She didn't you're going to
faint. I go nap and I there again, I go
proven that you you've never you've never seen a case like
mine. And she said, do you think
you're going to go crazy? And I went, oh, I am crazy.
Like that was the thing for me. So but it's different for
everybody. But for me, I'm like, oh, I'm
going insane 100%. I'm moments from a very, very
(29:19):
frightening diagnosis and I just, I feel so much for that
young girl. Michaela told me she's going to
try and get me to cry today and I said good luck.
But I do feel a little bit emotional saying this.
I really feel for that young girl and, and anyone at that
time, like just how little, how little we knew.
And I, I feel so happy now that people are so much more.
(29:46):
You know, I'd sit around at the girls at work and we, I'd go,
what, what meds are you on? And I'd take this.
I'd say, Oh yeah, what, you know, like young people today,
they're so free about so many things.
And it's, it's this realisation that, you know, yeah, I've got
this thing that I deal with, butit's not who I am and it's not
doesn't define everything about me.
I can be lots of things and havethis thing that I'm dealing with
(30:09):
and that I just that makes me happy.
Yeah. And I, I think that's hugely
powerful to be able to say that,you know, that's, it's not who I
am. It's something that I deal with
all the time back then from timeto time now, but thinking back
to about 22 at at this stage, 22year old Danny, I mean, that's
(30:30):
still, that's still a baby, right?
That's still such a young girl. And I just, I wonder, I guess
two things. Did you ever then go back once
you started medication and speakto a psychologist and try and
understand where it came from? Because I, I wonder why you felt
(30:56):
that burden was yours to carry. You know, I, I, I hear what
you're saying, that it, it wasn't as normal and everything
like that, but that's society, right?
That that's the outside world. Why you didn't feel that your
inner world as a young 22 year old, why you didn't feel that
that was safe enough to be able to say, I feel like I'm going
(31:22):
crazy, you know, I know you had moments, but even saying like,
what's the point of life at any stage?
Did you feel suicidal? I, I never got to the point and,
and very few people know this, but I never got to the point
where I wanted to not be alive anymore, but I could not
(31:43):
understand how I was going to get through the rest of my life.
Like when you are in an, you know, acute state of anxiety,
almost all of the time getting through one hour is agony.
So you go, well, I got to get through 24 hours and then I got
to get through another 24 and I got to do that seven times to
get through a week and then I got to do that 7 * 4 times to
(32:04):
get through. It feels insurmountable.
So I had reached a point where Iwas like, I actually don't
understand, am I supposed to live till I'm 80 years old?
How so? I hadn't gotten to the point
where I, you know, it didn't go further than that, but that was
this pretty dark place to be outat 2223 years old.
And, you know, yeah, I'm grateful that I that I was able
(32:29):
to access help and I was privileged enough to be able to
pay for that and had, you know, a family that really cared about
me and, and I guess made sure that I accessed that help
because I'm guessing that feeling would have it's gotten
worse, you know, and, and just the agony is a good way to
(32:49):
describe it, just agony to just exist.
And so to answer your question about did I, did I ever look
into 100% with multiple different therapists?
And I never really got a definitive answer.
You know, I feel like we, we want we me again, my personality
(33:11):
type. You talk about being, you know,
being a high achiever and someone who, you know, been
relatively successful at things that I've tried in my life and
things coming relatively easily to me that I wanted that to be
all wrapped up in a nice little bow like, oh, that makes sense.
You had this because of that. And then I go, oh, OK, oh, I get
it. I never got to that.
And it and, and one thing that one therapist said to me at
(33:34):
once, she said, it's not you. You don't really have an anxious
personality and I don't. So I don't worry.
I'm not a worry. I'm not an overthinker.
I don't go over and over things again, I don't, I am not an
anxious personality. So for me, it does feel very
biological. And I know that as we talked
(33:55):
about with the mind body connection, I don't think it's
ever one or the other, but maybethere's a leaning one way or
another where I feel like, I guess the place I got to where,
yeah, I can make sense of, you know, definitely anxious traits
in my mum. And I can look back at her
upbringing and some of the toughstuff that she went through and
that, you know, potentially someof that got passed on to me.
(34:19):
But I had AI had a real nice life.
I had beautiful parents that loved me and looked after me and
I always had great friends and Iwas popular.
And I have no trauma. I have, you know, I don't have
an easy answer for that. So I had to make peace with that
and I had to make peace with going.
I may never get my nice little answer, but you know, whether
(34:42):
it's nature or nurture or a bit of everything, I think I did
have to get to a place where I'mlike.
For me, it does feel there's a leaning more towards it being
chemical. However, I do think that I do
wonder what would have happened if I got help really early.
I don't think it would have presented the way that it did in
the end, You know, the expression neurons that fire
(35:04):
together, wire together. Allowing myself to get, you
know, to spend a good two years kind of descending into those
patterns that were really unhelpful.
Those thinking patterns that I had to learn my way out of with
cognitive behavioural therapy. You know, combination of
medication and cognitive behavioural therapy is was the
golden ticket for me. Had to de de unlearn a lot of
(35:27):
that stuff. And I do wonder, had I have
found this absolutely incrediblepsychiatrist early enough, maybe
I could have kind of stopped it from getting to the point that
it got to. But it did, and that's where I
ended up. I feel like you, absolutely
(35:50):
anyone doesn't need to truly understand OK C happens because
of A&B. It doesn't.
You don't have to do that in order for you to move forward in
life. There are plenty of trauma
survivors that don't actually have recollection of their
trauma but sure as shit have thesymptoms of it now and can
(36:12):
absolutely thrive in life movingforward without those answers.
And I guess some people find it really interesting, especially
if they're not in the mental health space, when someone
presents with a perfect life, why, why would they have anxiety
(36:33):
or why would they have depression?
That's why I've got a perfect life.
Yeah, Yeah. And I, I actually find that
really interesting in itself because I mean, we could talk
for hours to uncover, like you just said, how did you witness
your mum dealing with stress? How did you witness your dad
dealing with stress? How did you witness them dealing
(36:54):
with stress together, Yadda, yadda, yadda.
We could go down that right? But even just like on a black
and white level from hearing youtalk and hearing how you even
function today of onwards and upwards.
Shit's tough. Let's keep going being popular
at school. I mean, the thing that keeps
like yelling out to me is, and it's almost like a contradiction
(37:18):
of who you are because the person who you are is very much,
I don't give a shit what people think.
I'm just me. It's almost like to your core, I
really care so much about what people think because I am
popular, I am good, I am the good girl, I do well, I'm
achiever. And then at the core of every
single panic attack was am I going crazy?
(37:41):
How's that going to look? Am I going crazy?
Is all that going to be taken away from me?
Am I not going to be the golden girl?
You know what I mean? 100%?
I mean, how? How does something like that sit
with you? I don't think I, I, yeah, for
sure, I probably have not done much therapy in my, in my later
(38:06):
adult life and certainly since I've become a parent and, and
I'm, you know, luckily enough that I'm still medicated and my
life is, I have 0 symptoms on mymedication, which a lot of
people with anxiety and depression still have symptoms
and still have to work. I don't have to do any work on
my drugs. So it's a.
It's a. Well, you do leave a very, you
(38:30):
look after yourself very well. You exercise frequently.
You, you you're an avid runner. You eat, you know, for a large
portion of your life you eat exceptionally well.
Like a lot of people sit down infront of me and they go, well,
yeah, I don't do any self care because I don't meditate and
sing kumbaya. But the number one thing you can
do to regulate your nervous system is exercise.
(38:52):
And you exercise almost every single day.
So I wonder if you took away thebeautiful and wonderful
structures that you just have built naturally, maybe those
meds would only do the 50%. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there, but.
I was going to say I'm very fastidious about my sleep as
well and I've I've always known sleep is really really important
(39:14):
to me. I need a lot of it which my
husband's always found very funny.
We say that I'm a triathlete andmy 3 disciplines are eating,
resting and sleeping. Very.
I don't know which one I'm strongest at to be honest.
I'm very strong at all three. Couldn't pick a favourite, but
that's really. Yeah, it's a really nice thing
to hear it because yes, I suppose you're right.
Yeah. But what was the original
(39:35):
question? Why did I feel that?
I. You know, yeah, maybe having
that, you know, all of those things and being being the
golden girl, whatever expressionis for sure, you know, it's also
a lot it's. I really don't think a lot about
what other people think of me and I never have.
But, you know, it's what you think of yourself.
And so if this is my identity, and if I, if I am a failure, if
(39:59):
I can't even function as a person in the world, just being
a human, I can't even human at abasic level.
What am I, you know, I, I don't really care about achievements
or ticking boxes or anything like that.
But it it felt like an enormous just general failure and and.
(40:20):
Did for a long time, a long, long time.
And it felt like taking a pill was accepting the failure.
And I tried to come off my drugsmultiple times as soon as I was
allowed, you know, staying up for six months, six months off
relapse, stand up for 12 months,12 months off relapse.
And eventually I got to a point where I'm like, what?
(40:41):
Why are you doing this? You know, I've heard Glenn and
Doyle say this, which I think isso funny about often people who
are on antidepressants for, you know, anxiety or depression or,
you know, you could relate this to any medication.
But it's like standing under an umbrella in the rain and saying,
well, I'm dry. I don't think I need this
umbrella. Why are you dry?
(41:03):
It's because you're standing under the umbrella, but it
doesn't feel like that. You kind of go, oh, I'm good
now. I think I'm good.
I don't need this anymore. So I had AI had a big, I felt I
had something to prove to myselfthat I can deal with this on my
own. I felt that very, very strongly.
And so where does that come from?
I don't know. And it would be interesting to
(41:23):
look at that, yeah. I, I guess it's, again, we're
not going to go into your childhood hero or any of those
things, but that is an interesting thing for, for you
to reflect on is even even now when tough things are happening
(41:45):
and it's like, no, no, it's fine.
We'll just laugh about it. Onwards and upwards.
It almost sounds like it's, it's, but it's, it's still
there. You say I don't have symptoms,
but I mean I think how you how you cope with tough times in
(42:07):
itself is still potentially one of your maladaptive coping
mechanisms. No doubt.
And I think the thing with maladaptive coping mechanisms
that actually make us look, well, like, I have fucking
plenty of them. People on the outside are always
(42:27):
like, yeah, but you're so organised and this and this and
this and it's like, actually it's just crippling anxiety that
makes me have really great coping mechanisms.
But again, they just reinforce. It's because I do this that
everything's OK and I, I just think it would be interesting
for you to reflect on. Are there any things that you
(42:48):
still currently do that it's because I do this that
everything is OK And whether that would potentially answer
anything. But I mean, I don't want you to
have to delve into hours on hours of, of your.
But I would be interested to hear if you imagined 22 year old
(43:14):
Danny sitting here in the room with us, for example.
And I can see her really clearlybecause you sent me a photo of
her the other day. And just imagining like, I don't
know, the youth and innocence ofa, of a 22 year old young female
entering this big world and the burden that she's put, she's put
(43:37):
on her shoulders that this is the human that I need to present
to the world. And is there a major flaw in me?
Is there something fundamentallywrong with me that I need to
cover up? I'm sick.
What? What would you want her to hear?
What would you want her to hear now as 46 year old Danny sitting
(43:59):
here? God, I find this stuff really
hard. I'm not good at being vulnerable
as you have wisely. Have you ever considered
becoming a therapist? You've got good skills in this
area. God, So even trying to trying to
say this stuff or think about it, I, I do find it really hard
and I just want to go, oh, I don't know.
(44:19):
I just tell her like, it's goingto be OK.
I think. And I don't know how many young
people listen to this, but like,I really, you know, when you,
you talk about that, oh, that's really young.
And it was, I felt like a fully fledged adult.
You know, I was working, I was paying rent, I was living in an
apartment. I had a, you know, boyfriend
that I thought I was going to marry.
(44:39):
I, I was, you know, I had a car.Like I was doing all the things
that you meant to do to be an adult.
And I felt very grown up. And I think what I would say to
her is that, you know, life is long.
You're going to have a long life.
And this is just a little tiny little piece of it.
And and it's going to, you know,it's going to be OK.
(45:03):
This is such a small piece of your life.
You're going to have a long life.
And that probably would have made me spiral into anxiety at
the time. Yeah, I find it, I think,
because I can't help but go put myself back in her head and to
feel like there's nothing anyonecould have said, There's nothing
(45:24):
anyone could have said that would have helped me.
But just, you know, the anxious brain and the way that you think
when you're in that brain, whichI can recognise now because I
now know what it feels like to not be in it and to be back in
it. That to also realise that you're
viewing things through a lens that's like a little bit
(45:45):
pathological. And so, you know, don't believe
everything your brain tells you,you know, and that poor little
brain, like it's just doing, it's trying so hard to be
helpful. It is, you know, we're primitive
monkeys running around and your brain is doing everything that
it it thinks it needs to do to ensure your survival.
(46:07):
And so that, you know, God blessour brains.
They're the most incredible, incredible things that we still
don't understand properly. But yeah, some of the things
that it's telling you to do and are not right and, and it's OK
to not be OK. And I guess in that situation,
you know, people talk about thisa lot in addiction.
(46:28):
Thankfully never had any issues with addiction.
But yeah, I really had to get toa place where I I couldn't
pretend to be OK anymore. It does.
It was. It was.
I couldn't do it. And so, yeah, maybe if I could
have gotten to that place earlier, it wouldn't have.
It wouldn't have gotten to a place that I now look back on.
(46:49):
I mean, really, it was a breakdown.
You know, I always wondered, what do people mean when they
say you have a nervous breakdown?
Like, what does that mean? I think that that's what it
means. You like, you can no longer
function in your life. You're just like, I can't, I'm
out. And it probably wasn't far off
needing to be admitted to an inpatient programme, honestly.
(47:10):
But thankfully, you know, I, I, I saw that doctor frequently in
the beginning and the medicationworked really, really well for
me and really quickly. But you know, I, I just would
want her to know that there's like options and you'll get,
you'll get to the other side of this and there's options and
it's not, this isn't it forever.And like also it's no big deal,
which maybe that's the wrong thing to say, but I think when
(47:33):
you're stuck in that headspace and in that anxious brain, the
beast gets bigger and bigger andbigger and bigger.
And it's so terrifying. And part of what I needed, you
know, the the previous psychologist that I'd been to
and my friends that I would talkto the the few that I would
talked about in my parents, everyone looked at me so sadly,
you know, like they just didn't know how to help me.
(47:54):
And my boyfriend. They deserve.
Everyone's giving me sad looks. And I just needed someone to go.
Yeah, don't worry, We'll sort itout.
It's, you know, Yeah, yeah. I don't want to.
I don't need you to sit here andcry to me.
Let's sort it out. And so for me, those practical
steps, I literally would go intoher office and we'd do school.
She'd write stuff on the whiteboard.
She'd explain to me what's happening.
She'd explain the Physiology, she'd explain the the hormones
(48:16):
and the this and this. That to me was just I needed
some sort of a circuit breaker. And then obviously when I was in
a much better place and then youfeel kind of strong enough to
go, let's look into this a little bit more.
Like you're asking me questions and I'm answering different
questions than what you've asked, but it's fun.
But that's also trauma recovery.But, but I think it's, it's good
(48:44):
advice for her or for anyone to hear that.
And it's, it's not necessarily abad thing to be like
everything's going to be OK. But if I think of a way of
wording, if I had a 22 year old client sitting in front of me
experiencing what you're experiencing.
I think one thing that a lot of my young clients actually say to
(49:05):
me is I really disliked all my other therapists because I could
just say they felt sorry for me.You don't feel sorry for me, but
I get it. And I think one thing that I
would say if you were in front of me is it's it's almost like
you needed to hear along the lines of everything's going to
be OK, but everything's going tobe OK even if you're not OK.
(49:29):
Like I almost feel that younger you and maybe even adult you
needs to hear that. I hope you're not doing this
podcast episode today and feel comfortable with potential
clients and everything that you just said before hearing it
because I'm all better and I don't have this anymore.
(49:49):
And so now I can talk about it. You know, I hope that it's still
that she is in you. You know, all stages of your
life still are in you until you really acknowledge them.
And you kind of I know a lot of my clients think it's like
hippie and airy fairy, but untilyou kind of take their hand and
you say, I'm now going to walk with you through life and not
(50:12):
just go, well, that part's solved.
So it's fine. She's done.
I almost want you now and and you as a 22 year old, to hear
that even if the way I describe people with anxiety, it's like
even if the worst case situationwas true, you're still gonna be
OK. But that's part of what?
(50:34):
Yeah. What that?
Part of behavioural therapy is absolutely, but I feel like
it's. Still relevant for you to
really, really believe. I almost feel like there's a
part of you that's like, yeah, Idid it and now I'm fine.
So now I can talk about it and Iyou absolutely are fine.
My point of today's podcast is not to make you be like, whoa,
(50:55):
am I fucked? I also, I don't even know if I'm
allowed to swear on this podcast, but hey, I think it's,
it's just that I really feel like I would love for younger
you. I would love for any person
sitting in front of me, but any 22 year old to be able to hear
that you're going to be OK even if you're not OK, you're going
(51:16):
to be OK even if you're not the person that makes everybody
laugh and everything is fine andonwards and upwards.
If you were like, you know what?I actually still am really
experiencing anxiety or I'm feeling really depressed or I'm
having a shit time that you actually allowed yourself to
feel that way because it's it's actually OK, even if shit's not
(51:40):
good. Yeah, if I.
If I may just take over the microphone again.
I think absolutely as human beings, we find uncomfortable
feelings. I, I do anyway, like pretty
uncomfortable. And there is a lot to be said
(52:01):
about just like, so you're feeling real anxious and crazy,
like, OK, So what? And then what?
You know. It it felt this like, you know,
this is a poison I've got to getout of my got to get out of me,
identify the poison, name it andget rid of it 100%.
And like, I get that, you know, yeah, you get to your point, to
(52:23):
the point where you're no longerfunctioning in your life.
Yes, we need to fix that. But I think something else that
has come out of it is because mymedication does work very well
for me. If I ever do feel even remotely
anxious, that's very scary to meand I have to.
Kind of, yeah. Exactly what you're.
(52:44):
Saying be like, all right, you don't freak out when you feel
happy. You don't go, Oh my God, I'm
happy. This might go away, You know,
like it's just a it's a feeling,it's a sensation.
It's and don't fate it so much. I think.
I think the other thing that I wanted to say that I would have
said to her is just do the thingthat helps, right?
(53:04):
I was so resistant to being on drugs, seeing a psychiatrist,
all these things that I felt that I that I shouldn't need and
I should be able to just shut upand just do the thing.
Like life's too short to be unhappy.
If in scenario A you get to be happy and live a live a great
and fulfilled life and scenario B is torture, why you keep
(53:27):
trying to go back to scenario B?You dumbass.
Just do the one that works, you know, And I, I've, I've wrestled
with that for years, working fora decade till I went, am I
right? I'll take the pill.
It is what it is. So I'll probably say that to her
as well. To be like who?
What medal do you think you're going to get at the end of this
(53:49):
when you prove that you got better all by yourself?
Like we don't expect that from anyone else with any other
condition. You know, I've got a dodgy back.
I've got scoliosis. I go to the chiropractor every
three weeks or so. Sometimes my back's perfect,
sometimes it's not. I don't go.
I really shouldn't go to the chiropractor, just really need
to be able to fix this on my own.
(54:10):
No, I will go to the person thatknows how to help me and gives
me some relief. And like, that's just something
I have to do as maintenance to be OK in my life and to feel the
best that I can feel. But there is a real still a
stigma with mental health that is, you know, vastly reduced
that if you are someone who takes pride in being, I've
(54:33):
honestly never thought about this before until you've said
this takes pride in being capable, independent.
I don't need anyone look at me. Give me a task, I'll do it.
I'll kick that goal, you know, I'll figure it out.
And even if I don't figure it out, I'll do my best and it'll
be OK to to to kind of go like, yeah, maybe this one you can't
do on your own. And that's cool.
(54:56):
It's not a goal that you have to.
Achieve I mean, I think you kindof summarised it well yourself
there. You've you've viewed overcoming
anxiety and now I don't have it anymore and now my because my
meds work really well and you that's you, you're wearing your
medal that I don't want you to wear.
(55:16):
Like I'm so proud of you for howyou deal with your mental health
and how extremely different lifelooks from 22 year old you.
But sometimes I think it's important for you to put that
metal down because it's not a badge of honour to be like say
now I don't have it anymore. You almost go tick recovered.
Now I can talk about it. I guess I just want to finish
(55:40):
today's episode in maybe something that is a little bit
uncomfortable and saying I wonder what it would look like
moving forward if you took the medal off for being so high
functioning now. And instead we're like, I'm
still 22 year old Danny. I still have that, but I can
just live with it in such a different way now that I I can
(56:08):
get through life in a different way.
But that's not something that I needed to solve and achieve.
And now we're a medal for. Do you know what I mean?
So I guess to, to finish today'sepisode, I, I wanted to ask you
how you felt talking about thesethings today.
Like you mentioned, you haven't really ever spoken about them
(56:29):
before because from from. My perspective.
I still feel that we were at a grocery list of milk, bread,
butter when we talked about these things and there's still
that wall. Do you know what I mean?
And I think I just want people that are listening today to
(56:51):
understand that Danny is a phenomenal example of that.
You can go from crippling anxiety, life ending crippling
anxiety that is agonising and exhausting both physically and
mentally and be thriving and happy and healthy in life.
(57:12):
And that is beautiful. And you have done that with a
combination of therapy, CBT and medication and that is
beautiful. And that is hopeful for people
and I do love that. I think it's just also an
important reminder for yourself and for other people listening.
And you know, ironically for myself, we're very similar as I
(57:32):
guess that's why we're still mates.
But to understand that it's not something that we need to wear
as this badge of honour, that we've overcome it and that it's,
I think I'm you will. Attest it.
I'm not trying to start a new conversation, but I'm very self
deprecating about it as well, which you have heard too.
(57:53):
Yeah, yeah. The amount of times that she
says in a day I'm batshit crazy,Yeah, I'm sick.
I'm sick. I don't know.
Though if that is like. Like kind of owning the label,
you know, of like that. We've got a little puppy.
That's that's I'm just going to take over here for a minute,
guys. Yeah.
I don't know if that self deprecation is still like a
(58:16):
little bit of shame, probably isto be honest, or if it's also
saying like fuck you like I am crazy.
Whatcha gonna do about it? I don't know, it's probably a
little bit of both. But I your feedback is extremely
valid and I will think about it a lot.
And damn you for seeing me for who I am.
(58:37):
I also do. Think that some coping
mechanisms can be column A and column B and it can be great and
you're just going, well, whatever.
Yeah, I am, and I'm owning it. But it can also be I'm ignoring
it and I'm just gonna make a joke out of it.
But I'm really proud of you for speaking about how you did
today. I know it's something that's
(58:58):
super foreign, and I know that alot of people will probably
resonate with Danny's experienceand especially with her
experience now in later life, I guess, coping with it and the
mask that sometimes we wear as human beings.
And I just wanted for anyone listening to understand that
(59:19):
it's two realities can exist at once, and it can be true that
you both are thriving and functioning and vastly different
to how you were in your lowest of lows and that life feels good
now. And at the same time, it can be
true that there is still a part of you that worries that you
(59:44):
will snap and have schizophrenia, or that life will
get too hard again, or that if you don't make a joke out of
something, things will crumble. It's OK that both of those
realities exist at the same time.
It doesn't have to mean that youhaven't you aren't deserving of
your medal, or that we even needone.
(01:00:05):
Do you know what I mean? I think it feels, to be honest,
like a. It's a survival medal, to be
honest. And you know, I don't use that
term lightly because I know thatagain, you know, I've had a.
Very privileged life. And continue to have a
privileged life today. But I think it's just, you know,
(01:00:26):
I went to a place that was darker than I ever thought I
would go. And guess what bitches?
I got out. And, and so you know, that to
me, like I'm, I am immensely proud and relieved to this day
that I don't live there anymore.And, and I, I think what you,
(01:00:46):
what you get from that moving forward is that at least I know
if it would have happened again,it's temporary.
And that is, that's a big thing to that's a big feather in your
cap to be able to go, OK, you know, and this, this is part of
what comes with age too. You live long enough and
hopefully I'm only halfway through my life, but you, you
(01:01:09):
know, you see so many seasons ofyour life that you go.
That was just, that was a time and this will be a time too.
And I thank you for the opportunity to talk, talk about
this. I, I was really excited about
it. Honestly, I didn't have any
trepidation about it. And I again, the gratitude I
have for any public figure or anybody talking publicly about
(01:01:32):
their mental health to get to the point that we're at now
where it is so normalised, like what that would have done for me
back then was just enormous. So to carry this, you know,
dirty little secret of, of something that that I live with,
it's just not on, you know, and it's not a secret anymore.
(01:01:52):
I talk very openly about it to people in in day to day life.
But probably the one area where I go, Oh, I wouldn't want anyone
in business to think that they can't trust me with their with
their business because they can.That's probably the one part of
it that I still wrestle with a little bit.
But also, you know, fuck em. I'm awesome at my job and I've
(01:02:12):
been doing it for a long time. And you know, this is like you
said, it's not, it's not who I am.
It's no, yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming on.
Today and for talking about it, even with that tiny part of you
that still wrestles with it, as you said, I really hope that you
guys enjoyed today's episode of Heart on my sleeve.
I definitely enjoyed delving deeper into getting to know you
(01:02:35):
and I'm sure this is just the start of the conversation and
I'll be harassing you for the foreseeable future on going
deeper. So I will see you guys in the
next episode. Thank you.
My emotions have a natural tendency to dissipate unless
they get reinforced. And so if there's more thoughts,
more stories, more intentions that come along.
(01:02:57):
So the act of how am I leaving it alone?
Is an act of not act adding. More.
Stories adding fuel to it so it might not go away in 2 minutes,
but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix it, we've
become the person who makes space, heart, the mind to relax
and settle away itself.
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us, inside us. I've been very interested in
this problem for a long long time.
Something settles. Hi, and welcome to the Heart on
my Sleeve podcast. Today I am your host, Michaela
Overman, psychologist and lead clinical director of Heart on My
(00:45):
Sleeve charity. And today I am joined by one of
my really good friends, but alsothe owner of Stark Raven PR
Thank you so much Danny Lombard for joining us today.
It's a pleasure to be here, Kayla.
I don't do many podcasts so we're not sure how this is going
to go. We will get comfy or cosy.
Cosy as my son would say. I guess I wanted to start the
(01:10):
podcast in understanding you just a little bit better and not
the Danny that I might or the public might actually know.
If I take away your job title, how would you present yourself
to somebody? How would you describe yourself
to somebody? Job title taken away.
(01:32):
It's a it's an interesting question because I, I think
there's a lot of elements of me that would be exactly the same
regardless. But probably who I am
authentically away from work is a big old goose.
Yeah. I, you know, I love to laugh.
I love to be silly. I'm very gregarious.
(01:53):
I have, you know, my husband calls me a friend collector.
I I love, you know, love meetingnew people, love building
friendships and relationships with people, which is actually a
lot of what PR is about too. But obviously I must also be
professional and responsible andreliable and all those things,
(02:14):
which is, which is very important when people are paying
you to do a job for them and youknow, take that very seriously.
But yeah, I, I, I don't think I'm a completely different
person at work than I am in reallife.
But yeah, I'm, I'm pretty happy.Go lucky outgoing.
(02:35):
You know, I think a lot of my friends would say that I was
funny and yeah, just like havingfun.
Yeah. Yeah, I would.
I would say the funniest human, honestly, even in situations
where you probably wouldn't expect someone to be funny, not
appropriate or appropriate. She is funny, so funny.
(02:55):
But what are some some principles, some values that you
feel that you live by, especially when the going gets
tough? Dear God, I wish we would have
gone through these questions beforehand.
What it principles, principles and values when the going gets
tough, I, I don't think I spend a lot of time navel gazing.
(03:15):
I think when probably my defaultposition during hard times or
stressful times is just to, you know, go into a mode of just
getting the job done, doing whatneeds to be done and realising
that maybe the more time you spend sort of thinking about it
and dwelling on it, that that's not necessarily helpful, perhaps
(03:38):
to my detriment in ways as well.But yeah, I think I think I'm
guided by, yeah, just just what what needs to happen here?
What what's the outcome that I'mlooking for and what, what needs
to happen to get that done. And obviously, I'm fortunate
enough to have had a, a, a pretty good life without
(04:01):
enormous, you know, enormous challenges that I'm sure other
people would have faced where that, you know, that's a
strategy that's worked for me. I'm sure there are situations
where where maybe that's not possible.
And I laugh a lot, you know, andI think if I think of some of
the hardest times, I lost my dadnearly three years ago
(04:22):
relatively quickly. And we got through a lot of that
through laughter as well, which again, is probably not not
always an appropriate strategy, but sometimes you just need
that, that, you know, valve thatyou can release.
And so, yeah, that's probably a good one for me too.
So I guess the key principle or value there is laughter's at the
(04:46):
heart of everything. Yeah.
You say you haven't been througha lot comparatively to other
people. And I guess what goes through my
mind is, I mean, I find it interesting when someone says
that, especially when I know probably even on the surface
what you have been through. But when I do know that, and I
(05:08):
think it's so interesting that that's your perspective that
it's, it's not a big deal. You know, it's, it's not much to
what other people have been through.
But even just what you mentioned, like losing your dad
three years ago, you were reallyclose to your father and you had
a really special relationship with him.
That's something that, well, I could say everybody goes
through, but we don't know how life turns out.
(05:31):
But that's something that a lot of people don't go through when
they're your age. That's a really young age to
lose a parent. And it's also not just a typical
parent child relationship. You had a really close connected
relationship. I mean, I, I know that today
we're going to talk about a few different things.
(05:51):
And I, I kind of to, to shake things up just a tiny bit here.
I guess it's like before this podcast episode, I was reading
through questions that we as a team are heart on my sleeve,
decide on of, you know, how to kind of get the podcast episode
going. And I'm looking at it.
(06:11):
And so many of them are how to make it lively and make it laugh
and, you know, just kind of break the ice a little bit.
And I just looked at them all and I'm like, I, I feel like for
all my other guests, they're going to be appropriate.
But let's just dive right in. But they're almost not for you
because I'm like, we can do thateasily.
(06:32):
That is who you are. And I guess the essence of what
I wanted to achieve today is, isDanny Lombard not with that, I
don't know that persona on Oh dear, which is Oh dear, Oh dear.
So I wanted to, I mean, if you if you're listening to this, you
(06:54):
know, the kind of person that she is, you can hear it.
She's lively. She's the life of the party.
She's utterly hilarious. And I think that's that shines
through. The second you probably listen
to the podcast or spend one minute with Danny, I want to
just dive straight into understanding what came up
(07:14):
really briefly in a conversationand what's triggered you being
one of the guests in this podcast.
Talk me through, I guess, the moment in your life when you
realise you know how I'm feelingright now, what I'm
experiencing. I don't actually know if it's
normal. Yeah, well, I would have been 21
(07:42):
and you know who I am today And and this, you know, person that
you talk about is who I always was.
You know that there's never beenI I've never had a great
personality transformation or, you know, anything like that.
But I had been travelling, I'd been backpacking with a
girlfriend for three months in Europe.
(08:03):
You know, we thought we were so grown up, but a lot back on it
now. We were like little babies, just
finished uni and you know, it saved up enough money to to make
our way through Europe for threemonths, which was really cool
and very unnerving as well. And I think I had a, you know,
there's probably an anxiety present in me my whole life that
(08:23):
was never out of control and that never really, I never, you
know, this is, this is in I think it were 2002 thousand.
Nobody talked about mental health and nobody talked about
anxiety. Anxiety wasn't a condition.
It was not something I knew whatdepression was, certainly didn't
know that anxiety was something.But I kind of look, you know, I
(08:47):
guess I can look back on elements of my life and kind of
recognise where that might have been present.
But I just, you know, so, so there were definitely periods
during that three months where I, I remember I didn't really
drink. You know, a lot of, you know,
young backpackers, you're drinking a lot, you'd be
partying a lot. But I always had a sense that
this is probably not safe. You know, a lot of the places
that we were staying in when youbackpack through Europe are in
(09:08):
like shitty parts of town. And, you know, there were no
mobile phones there. And we didn't, we certainly
didn't have a mobile phone. If you rang your parents, it was
once a week on a pay phone. You know, you'd have to go into
an Internet cafe to get Internetservice.
I'm making myself sound 700 years old, but I am.
So anyway, I guess it leading upto this period, you know, yeah,
I'd, I'd had to do something that was really brave.
(09:30):
And, you know, I was still living at home.
And so to be out of home for three months and with me and my
girlfriend just muddling our wayalong and, and trying not to
get, you know, murdered or fall into a ditch somewhere that,
that was probably a little bit of stress that you're carrying
around, but not in a way that I,you know, recognised.
And then I had a, a working visafor Canada.
So my plan was I would then go on to Toronto, I'd work for a
(09:51):
few months and then I'd do what every Aussie does and go and
work in ski fields and Whistler.But I'd met a boy in a beer hall
in Germany who was American. And so we had, we'd kind of met
up a couple of times through Europe.
And then we'd made a plan that Iwould go and visit him in San
Francisco kind of as soon as I got to Toronto, before I started
getting a job and that kind of thing, and went to visit him for
(10:13):
two weeks. And in that period of time, he
was at work every day. So I would go, cool, I'll just
go sightseeing. I'll cruise around the city and,
you know, go and see things. And obviously felt really
confident doing that because I've been away for three months.
But if I look at that period, obviously there's an enormous
amount of uncertainty. So I'd finished my three months
travelling. I was, you know, going to go
back to Toronto and have to finda job.
(10:33):
And then, you know, I was wildlyin love with a, you know, with
a, a new guy and what, what's going to happen.
And I live in Australia and you live here and how's that all
going to work? So and then it just just a lot
of time on my hands, obviously, you know, 8-8 hours a day by
myself. So if I kind of look back on it
now, I go, it kind of makes sense why maybe the
circumstances that might have led to this.
(10:54):
But I was cruising along one dayin San Francisco and I had what
I now know to be a panic attack.And luckily for me, my mother
had worked as a, you know, kind of receptionist, office manager
for a psychiatrist for many, many years.
So honestly, I'm not sure what, what I would have thought if I
didn't have my mum to tell this,but I said, you know, this
(11:16):
happened and I don't even reallyremember what I felt like, but,
but I was freaking out. You know, I think panic attacks
present really differently for different people.
But for me, you know, the, the, the heart rate, the, you know,
racing heart, the, and just thisfeeling of what, what I feel
crazy. I just feel I, I don't know
what's happening to me right now.
Like whatever it was, I'm like, this is not normal.
(11:38):
I've never experienced anything like this is horrible.
I'm all alone again. I didn't even have a mobile
phone to her to ring my boyfriend and say, help me, I'm
on a street corner somewhere. But anyway, I would have at some
point rang my mum and, and said this, this happened and it was
really weird. And she said, Oh, it sounds like
you had a panic attack. And I said, what, what, what's a
panic attack? And, you know, we talked about
(11:59):
it And then I remember in that, but I immediately knew that
wasn't, that wasn't normal, whatever that was, it was
heinous and horrible. And of course, the next day off
he goes to work and off I go under in the city.
And then I, there was a very prevalent terror of it happening
again. And, you know, Fast forward the
(12:21):
next, you know, year and a half,two years, I ended up living in
Toronto for a few months. We would go back and forth to
see each other. I ended up moving to San
Francisco where I lived with himfor a bit over a year before he
came back to Australia. And in that period, I would have
had them infrequently, you know,I'd have a panic attack and then
(12:41):
go, oh, there we go. I had a panic attack and carry
on with my life. And it didn't seem to be
something that would really interfere with my life in
between. But then again, you know,
hindsight is 2020. Nobody talked about this at the
time. There was no podcasts.
There was, you know, the Internet existed, but it just so
for for context, I'm 46 years old.
(13:02):
This happened when I was 21. I've never talked about this
other than to friends, right. So the fact that it's taken me
this long to go, I'm actually really comfortable with clients,
potential clients knowing this about me and them not thinking
less of me. It's taken this long, but we now
thankfully live in an environment in, in Australia at
least, where mental health is really normalised.
(13:25):
It's discussed relatively openly.
I think there's still a lot of shame and stigma around it, but
it's a completely different time.
So back in 2002, thousand and one 2002, I didn't read anything
up on it. I didn't research it.
I was just like, oh, this is just something I get now.
Cool, no problem. But then what would happen is
after each time the the brain will sort of try and go, well,
(13:48):
what what caused that to happen?And then I'll just avoid that
thing next time. So, oh, it happened in a movie
cinema. So I will now be very alert when
I go to the movies. And then you probably start
having panic attacks at the movies and then you go, well,
this, this is not an example that happened to me, but oh, I
had one on a bus. Oh, I don't like public
transport. I'll avoid public transport,
(14:09):
things like that. And I now know that, that, that,
that avoidant behaviour is very symptomatic of the, the issue
and also very likely to make youworse.
And so Fast forward that period of time and it got to a point
where I was living back in Sydney.
The, the, my, you know, we're not together anymore, but my
(14:29):
boyfriend at the time, we're living together.
If you looked at my life, everything tickety Boo working
in my first job in PR great company, great colleagues, great
boss, great opportunities, lovely boyfriend, lovely
relationship. I had a beautiful supportive
family, gorgeous friends, everything you could want and my
(14:49):
mental health was deteriorating over a period of time.
You know, what do they talk about?
If you if you put a frog in coldwater and you boil it slowly,
the frog doesn't know that it's,you know, doesn't realise what's
happening. So it was very much that and I
guess it got to the point where they, they had become very
frequent and I had become what Inow know to be like very
(15:11):
agoraphobic, which I'd thought agoraphobia was like fear of
crowds and fear of sort of wide open spaces.
I didn't, I didn't, you know, and you'll be able to give a
better definition than me because I actually don't know
what the definition is. But I had just started to avoid
more and more and more scenariosbecause I was so scared that
they would trigger panic in me. So I'd started driving to work
(15:33):
at great expense, parking in thecity at great expense, so I
didn't have to be on public transport.
I didn't like going anywhere kind of crowded or busy because
I felt that that would trigger me.
I had to drive myself everywhere.
I didn't like the idea of being getting a ride with a friend
because what if I needed to leave?
So my thing was always that if Ihad the panic attack or need to
(15:54):
leave where I was, so I would need to know that I could leave.
And, you know, I just started toset up my life with all of these
little, in all these little waysthat I thought I was supporting
myself, but I was actually making myself a lot worse.
And because I didn't, I didn't get any help and didn't talk to
anyone about it. I didn't understand that the
(16:14):
things that felt intuitive to meto protect myself were actually
quite damaging. And again, my mum had said to
me, you know, maybe you should go and see a psychologist.
Absolutely not, absolutely not, not I, I will not do that again.
It was not a normal thing to do.I was like, I'm not, there's
nothing wrong with me. I'm not, that's not, I'm not
doing that. Absolutely not.
(16:35):
Eventually got to a point where I was like, OK, I'm not going
very well. I will see a psychologist.
Unfortunately, this woman encouraged all of these
behaviours and told me that theywere they were wonderful.
And and so that didn't help. And then, you know, I continued
to continue to to get worse. And then it wasn't until my mom
said, you know, there's a psychiatrist that works at the
(16:58):
practise that I work at who specialises in anxiety and
panic. And, you know, I see lots of
young girls coming in. By this stage, I was probably
2223. And, you know, they're in these
well dressed young girls. Like they look just like you.
And I was like, absolutely not. No, absolutely not.
Anyway, eventually I was like, literally lock me away and throw
away the key. Like I cannot function anymore.
So those sort of panic attacks that were few and far between
(17:21):
had become, you know, pretty much daily occurrences and
turned into, yeah, I suppose generalised anxiety all the
time. This is so on edge kind of not
knowing when it was going to happen.
So I'll finish talking now. But I knew that I think with
with the case of something like panic attacks, they do feel so
(17:42):
extreme that it is very clear that this isn't normal and we're
out of time. So thank you for having me.
So that I guess when you startedfeeling like it's it's not
normal. Well, no, you said from the
beginning you knew it wasn't normal.
(18:03):
So it's not really the differentiation between suddenly
something ticked over. You had enough panic attacks
where you went, oh, this isn't normal.
You knew it from the get go. Do you think it was?
I don't know. You're in denial that you
couldn't just conquer it yourself, that you couldn't.
I mean, I'm trying really hard to not know you like, you know,
(18:27):
I, I, I want to not just assume because I know you're a real go
getter. You're, you're a high achiever.
And I'm wondering, you know, is,is there a part of you that
always knew that it wasn't normal, but you just kept
thinking, I'll do it by myself. I can deal with it.
I can sort it out 100. Percent.
(18:47):
Yeah, 100%. I guess it sort of becomes
normal after a while if it keepshappening and then you go, oh,
it's not such a big deal. I don't think I had any idea how
much worse it could get. And then again, because it
slowly, slowly, I didn't see bits of my life being taken away
from me. And when I look back on it now,
(19:09):
and there was a moment where I really reached a point where I
didn't feel I could carry on doing it by myself.
I'll tell the story. So my, my boyfriend and I had
gone to play tennis after work or tennis courts across the
road. So my point is, I'm still going
(19:29):
to work. I'm playing tennis after work,
right? So I'm look like a normal person
in the world. I, I've got the energy and
wherewithal to play tennis afterwork.
And we were sitting down after playing tennis.
And I said to him, do you ever, do you ever like wonder, like,
what the point of being alive is?
And he just looked at me so kindof sadly and said, whoa, he was
(19:53):
at a Med school, by the way, Andhe was real, sweetheart.
And he said, whoa, just to, likebe alive, like, just to
experience life. And I was like, yeah, but why?
Like, what's the point? Like, why?
You know, what do you have to just keep getting out the next
day and doing again? Yeah, you don't think about
that. And he said, no.
(20:14):
And I said, why do I think aboutthat?
And he said, babe, because I think you're depressed.
And I have never felt so instantaneously depressed in my
life than hearing that because Iam not that person.
And I, you know, so I think thatthat the depression anxiety for
(20:39):
a lot of people and certainly for me go very hand in hand.
Life becomes very depressing when you stop doing everything
that you love and enjoy and you live in a state of perpetual
turmoil and anxiety. That's not fun.
But that acknowledgement that I think something's wrong with me.
I mean, I could hardly get out of bed the next morning.
I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it.
(21:00):
I'm like, how has this happened to me?
And it was really at that point where I was like, I just, I'm
out of bullets. I got nothing.
I don't know. And it sounds so dumb now.
What do you mean you're out of bullets?
You didn't even try anything yet, you know, But it just
didn't seem. It was not talked about.
The options that we have now were not visible.
You didn't watch people on reelstalking about stuff.
(21:22):
You didn't hear celebrities talking about it.
You didn't listen to countless podcasts.
You didn't have idols and peoplethat you looked up to and
respected that would tell you about it.
So to me it was an enormous defect and weakness and
something was horribly wrong with me and I really was
terrified that I was going crazyand all of that tied into a nice
(21:46):
little bow was not a good place to land.
But that's what it took for me to go, OK, I'll I don't care,
I'll do whatever. And at that point I went to say
a psychiatrist that my mum had talked about that specialised in
anxiety and when on medication. So when your boyfriend said that
it's a moment of feeling sane and at the same time shattering
(22:10):
your life into 1000 places, yeah, Yeah.
Because you'd kind of, I guess that Spotlight have been trying
to go on that for a while and you're ignoring it.
While the world burns. Yeah.
Yeah, very much. So, and all of your coping
mechanisms that you were doing that, I mean, I can't believe
there was a therapist that told you that that was a good thing
(22:31):
to do. You're essentially just teaching
yourself with all of these coping mechanisms that it's that
coping mechanism that kept you alive.
It's that coping mechanism that made the bad thing not happen.
So you're consistently just reinforcing the shitty
behaviours. And I say.
Shitty No 100. Percent.
(22:51):
Your brain is just getting this feedback loop on repeat that,
oh, OK, so because we avoided the elevator, the elevator
didn't crash. It's not because the mechanics
of the elevator, you know, did their job or, you know, because
we drove home on our own and we didn't go with a friend.
We didn't have a panic attack. You know your brain is just
(23:13):
always getting that message thatyou must be in control of every
single tiny little thing. And it's exhausting.
Exhausting. I'm just so surprised that you
did manage to have the energy togo to work and play tennis.
As you said, like it. It kind of shows you how much of
(23:34):
A burden you were masking. Oh yeah.
Like you just slapped that big band aid on there and just kept
ignoring it. And I was terrified of anyone
knowing. I had one friend that I would
talk to about it and honestly, if it wasn't for my mum knowing
about, you know, she'd obviouslytype up all the reports from the
(23:56):
psychiatrist. That was her job.
So she would read about all kinds of things and all kinds of
problems. I really don't know what what
would have, what it would have taken if I didn't have someone
there to say, hey, you know, you've got options.
You know, you could take medication.
I mean, the thought of taking medication for me was like,
well, you might as well just liedown and give up.
Like to me, that was the end of the road and I reached the end
(24:17):
of the road. But to me that was like, well,
you've, you've to complete failure if you need to take
medication. It's so daft.
That's right. But I really felt that.
And I didn't know anyone who took medication for depression
or anxiety. I'd never heard anyone talk
about it. It felt So yeah, it, it.
But. But again, she told me what my
(24:38):
options were. And eventually I reached a point
where I'm like, OK, well, I'm ready to call in reinforcements
because what I'm doing is not working.
But I don't know how I would have found out about that.
I suppose I would have gone to my GP.
And do you want to hear something funny?
I there were many physical things wrong with me in the last
probably 6 to 8 months before I got help, none of which are
(25:00):
related to what was happening. So I was had horrible like
heartburn and indigestion, horrible on medication for that
right? Didn't know what was setting it
off. Sometimes I eat this happens
sometimes I eat that you know, couldn't work it out.
Went to the GPGP, put me on medication for acid reflux.
Then I was having these, you know, dizzy spells.
(25:22):
Went to the JP about that. I've noticed some dizzy spells.
Well, I don't know why this is me.
And he'd say to me, are you stressed?
And I'd go, no, because I was like, stressed People are like
men in suits that come home fromwork and go, I'm stressed.
Like I was 22. I didn't really have any stress
in my life. So I was like, no, I'm, I don't,
I'm not stressed. I don't, everything's cool.
(25:43):
And then I don't know, there wassome other thing as well.
I think I went in for three separate things and the fourth
time when I went in howling going, I need a referral for a
psychiatrist. He said, why didn't you tell me?
I was like, I didn't think it was related.
I didn't think it was relevant and and all of those things just
went away. So the the the mind body
connection as well of like beingin that state of pretty much
(26:04):
permanent fight or flight, how taxing that is on your body as
well with having a lot of other effects physically still don't
recognise it. I mean, I, you know, we were,
and you know, I'm talking about the early 2000s.
Imagine people who were going through this in the 70s or the
80s or whatever. You know, we don't know what we
don't know. But it was just flying blind
(26:27):
completely. And other than my mum having
this little bit of knowledge, but that's I guess the thing
that gave me the path towards like, maybe there's someone who
can help me. Having your mum with that
understanding, do you think thatit shifted you from feeling, as
you said, crazy and feeling likeOK well there is an
(26:48):
understandable valid reason why this could be happening and kind
of got your brain away from thinking holy shit I'm going
bonkers. Absolutely not not.
I thought I was crazy. I thought I was just giving in
to the fact that I'm crazy. No, I was.
I was. And so first appointment with
the shrink and you fill out a form, if anyone listening to
(27:10):
this has been, you know, been toAI, don't know, do psychologists
do it to get you to fill out theanxiety depression checklist?
Yeah. So I didn't know what that was.
So tick, tick a zero to five. How often do you feel this?
555-5555? Very often.
All the time. All the time, All the time.
And as I was filling it out, it was actually the first moment of
relief that I had because I was like, oh, my God, how do they
(27:32):
know about all these things thatI'm feeling?
I honestly thought I was a rare case never before seen by
medical science. I swear to God, I'd never heard
of anyone that that had gone through this.
So when they were ticking off listing the symptoms, I, I
couldn't, I felt, I was like, Ohmy God, they didn't know about
(27:53):
this. So that was the first moment of
relief. And then the second moment of
relief was I had, I said to the doctor, I just don't know why
this is happening to me. I don't know why this is
happening to me. I don't know why.
And she said, well, it doesn't matter.
We don't need to know why, right?
As a psychologist, you're going to probably think that's
interesting. But that was the thing that I
was fixated on. And what she said to me in that
(28:14):
moment is we don't need to know why to get you to feel better.
Like the why can come later. And to me, I was like, oh, oh,
OK. Like I thought, I'm going into
two years of intensive psychoanalysis before I'm going
to feel any sense of relief. And what she, you know,
obviously dealing with people with anxiety who are desperately
(28:36):
seeking answers and overthinkingand overthinking and
overthinking, that's probably not the right time when they're
in that peak state, I'm guessingto go into deep level analysis
with them. So yeah, that was that was just,
you know, but even then she saidto me, what what do you think is
going to happen when you have a panic attack?
Do you think you're going to have a heart attack?
(28:56):
I go, no, she goes, do you thinkyou're going to vomit?
I go nap. She didn't you're going to
faint. I go nap and I there again, I go
proven that you you've never you've never seen a case like
mine. And she said, do you think
you're going to go crazy? And I went, oh, I am crazy.
Like that was the thing for me. So but it's different for
everybody. But for me, I'm like, oh, I'm
going insane 100%. I'm moments from a very, very
(29:19):
frightening diagnosis and I just, I feel so much for that
young girl. Michaela told me she's going to
try and get me to cry today and I said good luck.
But I do feel a little bit emotional saying this.
I really feel for that young girl and, and anyone at that
time, like just how little, how little we knew.
And I, I feel so happy now that people are so much more.
(29:46):
You know, I'd sit around at the girls at work and we, I'd go,
what, what meds are you on? And I'd take this.
I'd say, Oh yeah, what, you know, like young people today,
they're so free about so many things.
And it's, it's this realisation that, you know, yeah, I've got
this thing that I deal with, butit's not who I am and it's not
doesn't define everything about me.
I can be lots of things and havethis thing that I'm dealing with
(30:09):
and that I just that makes me happy.
Yeah. And I, I think that's hugely
powerful to be able to say that,you know, that's, it's not who I
am. It's something that I deal with
all the time back then from timeto time now, but thinking back
to about 22 at at this stage, 22year old Danny, I mean, that's
(30:30):
still, that's still a baby, right?
That's still such a young girl. And I just, I wonder, I guess
two things. Did you ever then go back once
you started medication and speakto a psychologist and try and
understand where it came from? Because I, I wonder why you felt
(30:56):
that burden was yours to carry. You know, I, I, I hear what
you're saying, that it, it wasn't as normal and everything
like that, but that's society, right?
That that's the outside world. Why you didn't feel that your
inner world as a young 22 year old, why you didn't feel that
that was safe enough to be able to say, I feel like I'm going
(31:22):
crazy, you know, I know you had moments, but even saying like,
what's the point of life at any stage?
Did you feel suicidal? I, I never got to the point and,
and very few people know this, but I never got to the point
where I wanted to not be alive anymore, but I could not
(31:43):
understand how I was going to get through the rest of my life.
Like when you are in an, you know, acute state of anxiety,
almost all of the time getting through one hour is agony.
So you go, well, I got to get through 24 hours and then I got
to get through another 24 and I got to do that seven times to
get through a week and then I got to do that 7 * 4 times to
(32:04):
get through. It feels insurmountable.
So I had reached a point where Iwas like, I actually don't
understand, am I supposed to live till I'm 80 years old?
How so? I hadn't gotten to the point
where I, you know, it didn't go further than that, but that was
this pretty dark place to be outat 2223 years old.
And, you know, yeah, I'm grateful that I that I was able
(32:29):
to access help and I was privileged enough to be able to
pay for that and had, you know, a family that really cared about
me and, and I guess made sure that I accessed that help
because I'm guessing that feeling would have it's gotten
worse, you know, and, and just the agony is a good way to
(32:49):
describe it, just agony to just exist.
And so to answer your question about did I, did I ever look
into 100% with multiple different therapists?
And I never really got a definitive answer.
You know, I feel like we, we want we me again, my personality
(33:11):
type. You talk about being, you know,
being a high achiever and someone who, you know, been
relatively successful at things that I've tried in my life and
things coming relatively easily to me that I wanted that to be
all wrapped up in a nice little bow like, oh, that makes sense.
You had this because of that. And then I go, oh, OK, oh, I get
it. I never got to that.
And it and, and one thing that one therapist said to me at
(33:34):
once, she said, it's not you. You don't really have an anxious
personality and I don't. So I don't worry.
I'm not a worry. I'm not an overthinker.
I don't go over and over things again, I don't, I am not an
anxious personality. So for me, it does feel very
biological. And I know that as we talked
(33:55):
about with the mind body connection, I don't think it's
ever one or the other, but maybethere's a leaning one way or
another where I feel like, I guess the place I got to where,
yeah, I can make sense of, you know, definitely anxious traits
in my mum. And I can look back at her
upbringing and some of the toughstuff that she went through and
that, you know, potentially someof that got passed on to me.
(34:19):
But I had AI had a real nice life.
I had beautiful parents that loved me and looked after me and
I always had great friends and Iwas popular.
And I have no trauma. I have, you know, I don't have
an easy answer for that. So I had to make peace with that
and I had to make peace with going.
I may never get my nice little answer, but you know, whether
(34:42):
it's nature or nurture or a bit of everything, I think I did
have to get to a place where I'mlike.
For me, it does feel there's a leaning more towards it being
chemical. However, I do think that I do
wonder what would have happened if I got help really early.
I don't think it would have presented the way that it did in
the end, You know, the expression neurons that fire
(35:04):
together, wire together. Allowing myself to get, you
know, to spend a good two years kind of descending into those
patterns that were really unhelpful.
Those thinking patterns that I had to learn my way out of with
cognitive behavioural therapy. You know, combination of
medication and cognitive behavioural therapy is was the
golden ticket for me. Had to de de unlearn a lot of
(35:27):
that stuff. And I do wonder, had I have
found this absolutely incrediblepsychiatrist early enough, maybe
I could have kind of stopped it from getting to the point that
it got to. But it did, and that's where I
ended up. I feel like you, absolutely
(35:50):
anyone doesn't need to truly understand OK C happens because
of A&B. It doesn't.
You don't have to do that in order for you to move forward in
life. There are plenty of trauma
survivors that don't actually have recollection of their
trauma but sure as shit have thesymptoms of it now and can
(36:12):
absolutely thrive in life movingforward without those answers.
And I guess some people find it really interesting, especially
if they're not in the mental health space, when someone
presents with a perfect life, why, why would they have anxiety
(36:33):
or why would they have depression?
That's why I've got a perfect life.
Yeah, Yeah. And I, I actually find that
really interesting in itself because I mean, we could talk
for hours to uncover, like you just said, how did you witness
your mum dealing with stress? How did you witness your dad
dealing with stress? How did you witness them dealing
(36:54):
with stress together, Yadda, yadda, yadda.
We could go down that right? But even just like on a black
and white level from hearing youtalk and hearing how you even
function today of onwards and upwards.
Shit's tough. Let's keep going being popular
at school. I mean, the thing that keeps
like yelling out to me is, and it's almost like a contradiction
(37:18):
of who you are because the person who you are is very much,
I don't give a shit what people think.
I'm just me. It's almost like to your core, I
really care so much about what people think because I am
popular, I am good, I am the good girl, I do well, I'm
achiever. And then at the core of every
single panic attack was am I going crazy?
(37:41):
How's that going to look? Am I going crazy?
Is all that going to be taken away from me?
Am I not going to be the golden girl?
You know what I mean? 100%?
I mean, how? How does something like that sit
with you? I don't think I, I, yeah, for
sure, I probably have not done much therapy in my, in my later
(38:06):
adult life and certainly since I've become a parent and, and
I'm, you know, luckily enough that I'm still medicated and my
life is, I have 0 symptoms on mymedication, which a lot of
people with anxiety and depression still have symptoms
and still have to work. I don't have to do any work on
my drugs. So it's a.
It's a. Well, you do leave a very, you
(38:30):
look after yourself very well. You exercise frequently.
You, you you're an avid runner. You eat, you know, for a large
portion of your life you eat exceptionally well.
Like a lot of people sit down infront of me and they go, well,
yeah, I don't do any self care because I don't meditate and
sing kumbaya. But the number one thing you can
do to regulate your nervous system is exercise.
(38:52):
And you exercise almost every single day.
So I wonder if you took away thebeautiful and wonderful
structures that you just have built naturally, maybe those
meds would only do the 50%. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there, but.
I was going to say I'm very fastidious about my sleep as
well and I've I've always known sleep is really really important
(39:14):
to me. I need a lot of it which my
husband's always found very funny.
We say that I'm a triathlete andmy 3 disciplines are eating,
resting and sleeping. Very.
I don't know which one I'm strongest at to be honest.
I'm very strong at all three. Couldn't pick a favourite, but
that's really. Yeah, it's a really nice thing
to hear it because yes, I suppose you're right.
Yeah. But what was the original
(39:35):
question? Why did I feel that?
I. You know, yeah, maybe having
that, you know, all of those things and being being the
golden girl, whatever expressionis for sure, you know, it's also
a lot it's. I really don't think a lot about
what other people think of me and I never have.
But, you know, it's what you think of yourself.
And so if this is my identity, and if I, if I am a failure, if
(39:59):
I can't even function as a person in the world, just being
a human, I can't even human at abasic level.
What am I, you know, I, I don't really care about achievements
or ticking boxes or anything like that.
But it it felt like an enormous just general failure and and.
(40:20):
Did for a long time, a long, long time.
And it felt like taking a pill was accepting the failure.
And I tried to come off my drugsmultiple times as soon as I was
allowed, you know, staying up for six months, six months off
relapse, stand up for 12 months,12 months off relapse.
And eventually I got to a point where I'm like, what?
(40:41):
Why are you doing this? You know, I've heard Glenn and
Doyle say this, which I think isso funny about often people who
are on antidepressants for, you know, anxiety or depression or,
you know, you could relate this to any medication.
But it's like standing under an umbrella in the rain and saying,
well, I'm dry. I don't think I need this
umbrella. Why are you dry?
(41:03):
It's because you're standing under the umbrella, but it
doesn't feel like that. You kind of go, oh, I'm good
now. I think I'm good.
I don't need this anymore. So I had AI had a big, I felt I
had something to prove to myselfthat I can deal with this on my
own. I felt that very, very strongly.
And so where does that come from?
I don't know. And it would be interesting to
(41:23):
look at that, yeah. I, I guess it's, again, we're
not going to go into your childhood hero or any of those
things, but that is an interesting thing for, for you
to reflect on is even even now when tough things are happening
(41:45):
and it's like, no, no, it's fine.
We'll just laugh about it. Onwards and upwards.
It almost sounds like it's, it's, but it's, it's still
there. You say I don't have symptoms,
but I mean I think how you how you cope with tough times in
(42:07):
itself is still potentially one of your maladaptive coping
mechanisms. No doubt.
And I think the thing with maladaptive coping mechanisms
that actually make us look, well, like, I have fucking
plenty of them. People on the outside are always
(42:27):
like, yeah, but you're so organised and this and this and
this and it's like, actually it's just crippling anxiety that
makes me have really great coping mechanisms.
But again, they just reinforce. It's because I do this that
everything's OK and I, I just think it would be interesting
for you to reflect on. Are there any things that you
(42:48):
still currently do that it's because I do this that
everything is OK And whether that would potentially answer
anything. But I mean, I don't want you to
have to delve into hours on hours of, of your.
But I would be interested to hear if you imagined 22 year old
(43:14):
Danny sitting here in the room with us, for example.
And I can see her really clearlybecause you sent me a photo of
her the other day. And just imagining like, I don't
know, the youth and innocence ofa, of a 22 year old young female
entering this big world and the burden that she's put, she's put
(43:37):
on her shoulders that this is the human that I need to present
to the world. And is there a major flaw in me?
Is there something fundamentallywrong with me that I need to
cover up? I'm sick.
What? What would you want her to hear?
What would you want her to hear now as 46 year old Danny sitting
(43:59):
here? God, I find this stuff really
hard. I'm not good at being vulnerable
as you have wisely. Have you ever considered
becoming a therapist? You've got good skills in this
area. God, So even trying to trying to
say this stuff or think about it, I, I do find it really hard
and I just want to go, oh, I don't know.
(44:19):
I just tell her like, it's goingto be OK.
I think. And I don't know how many young
people listen to this, but like,I really, you know, when you,
you talk about that, oh, that's really young.
And it was, I felt like a fully fledged adult.
You know, I was working, I was paying rent, I was living in an
apartment. I had a, you know, boyfriend
that I thought I was going to marry.
(44:39):
I, I was, you know, I had a car.Like I was doing all the things
that you meant to do to be an adult.
And I felt very grown up. And I think what I would say to
her is that, you know, life is long.
You're going to have a long life.
And this is just a little tiny little piece of it.
And and it's going to, you know,it's going to be OK.
(45:03):
This is such a small piece of your life.
You're going to have a long life.
And that probably would have made me spiral into anxiety at
the time. Yeah, I find it, I think,
because I can't help but go put myself back in her head and to
feel like there's nothing anyonecould have said, There's nothing
(45:24):
anyone could have said that would have helped me.
But just, you know, the anxious brain and the way that you think
when you're in that brain, whichI can recognise now because I
now know what it feels like to not be in it and to be back in
it. That to also realise that you're
viewing things through a lens that's like a little bit
(45:45):
pathological. And so, you know, don't believe
everything your brain tells you,you know, and that poor little
brain, like it's just doing, it's trying so hard to be
helpful. It is, you know, we're primitive
monkeys running around and your brain is doing everything that
it it thinks it needs to do to ensure your survival.
(46:07):
And so that, you know, God blessour brains.
They're the most incredible, incredible things that we still
don't understand properly. But yeah, some of the things
that it's telling you to do and are not right and, and it's OK
to not be OK. And I guess in that situation,
you know, people talk about thisa lot in addiction.
(46:28):
Thankfully never had any issues with addiction.
But yeah, I really had to get toa place where I I couldn't
pretend to be OK anymore. It does.
It was. It was.
I couldn't do it. And so, yeah, maybe if I could
have gotten to that place earlier, it wouldn't have.
It wouldn't have gotten to a place that I now look back on.
(46:49):
I mean, really, it was a breakdown.
You know, I always wondered, what do people mean when they
say you have a nervous breakdown?
Like, what does that mean? I think that that's what it
means. You like, you can no longer
function in your life. You're just like, I can't, I'm
out. And it probably wasn't far off
needing to be admitted to an inpatient programme, honestly.
(47:10):
But thankfully, you know, I, I, I saw that doctor frequently in
the beginning and the medicationworked really, really well for
me and really quickly. But you know, I, I just would
want her to know that there's like options and you'll get,
you'll get to the other side of this and there's options and
it's not, this isn't it forever.And like also it's no big deal,
which maybe that's the wrong thing to say, but I think when
(47:33):
you're stuck in that headspace and in that anxious brain, the
beast gets bigger and bigger andbigger and bigger.
And it's so terrifying. And part of what I needed, you
know, the the previous psychologist that I'd been to
and my friends that I would talkto the the few that I would
talked about in my parents, everyone looked at me so sadly,
you know, like they just didn't know how to help me.
(47:54):
And my boyfriend. They deserve.
Everyone's giving me sad looks. And I just needed someone to go.
Yeah, don't worry, We'll sort itout.
It's, you know, Yeah, yeah. I don't want to.
I don't need you to sit here andcry to me.
Let's sort it out. And so for me, those practical
steps, I literally would go intoher office and we'd do school.
She'd write stuff on the whiteboard.
She'd explain to me what's happening.
She'd explain the Physiology, she'd explain the the hormones
(48:16):
and the this and this. That to me was just I needed
some sort of a circuit breaker. And then obviously when I was in
a much better place and then youfeel kind of strong enough to
go, let's look into this a little bit more.
Like you're asking me questions and I'm answering different
questions than what you've asked, but it's fun.
But that's also trauma recovery.But, but I think it's, it's good
(48:44):
advice for her or for anyone to hear that.
And it's, it's not necessarily abad thing to be like
everything's going to be OK. But if I think of a way of
wording, if I had a 22 year old client sitting in front of me
experiencing what you're experiencing.
I think one thing that a lot of my young clients actually say to
(49:05):
me is I really disliked all my other therapists because I could
just say they felt sorry for me.You don't feel sorry for me, but
I get it. And I think one thing that I
would say if you were in front of me is it's it's almost like
you needed to hear along the lines of everything's going to
be OK, but everything's going tobe OK even if you're not OK.
(49:29):
Like I almost feel that younger you and maybe even adult you
needs to hear that. I hope you're not doing this
podcast episode today and feel comfortable with potential
clients and everything that you just said before hearing it
because I'm all better and I don't have this anymore.
(49:49):
And so now I can talk about it. You know, I hope that it's still
that she is in you. You know, all stages of your
life still are in you until you really acknowledge them.
And you kind of I know a lot of my clients think it's like
hippie and airy fairy, but untilyou kind of take their hand and
you say, I'm now going to walk with you through life and not
(50:12):
just go, well, that part's solved.
So it's fine. She's done.
I almost want you now and and you as a 22 year old, to hear
that even if the way I describe people with anxiety, it's like
even if the worst case situationwas true, you're still gonna be
OK. But that's part of what?
(50:34):
Yeah. What that?
Part of behavioural therapy is absolutely, but I feel like
it's. Still relevant for you to
really, really believe. I almost feel like there's a
part of you that's like, yeah, Idid it and now I'm fine.
So now I can talk about it and Iyou absolutely are fine.
My point of today's podcast is not to make you be like, whoa,
(50:55):
am I fucked? I also, I don't even know if I'm
allowed to swear on this podcast, but hey, I think it's,
it's just that I really feel like I would love for younger
you. I would love for any person
sitting in front of me, but any 22 year old to be able to hear
that you're going to be OK even if you're not OK, you're going
(51:16):
to be OK even if you're not the person that makes everybody
laugh and everything is fine andonwards and upwards.
If you were like, you know what?I actually still am really
experiencing anxiety or I'm feeling really depressed or I'm
having a shit time that you actually allowed yourself to
feel that way because it's it's actually OK, even if shit's not
(51:40):
good. Yeah, if I.
If I may just take over the microphone again.
I think absolutely as human beings, we find uncomfortable
feelings. I, I do anyway, like pretty
uncomfortable. And there is a lot to be said
(52:01):
about just like, so you're feeling real anxious and crazy,
like, OK, So what? And then what?
You know. It it felt this like, you know,
this is a poison I've got to getout of my got to get out of me,
identify the poison, name it andget rid of it 100%.
And like, I get that, you know, yeah, you get to your point, to
(52:23):
the point where you're no longerfunctioning in your life.
Yes, we need to fix that. But I think something else that
has come out of it is because mymedication does work very well
for me. If I ever do feel even remotely
anxious, that's very scary to meand I have to.
Kind of, yeah. Exactly what you're.
(52:44):
Saying be like, all right, you don't freak out when you feel
happy. You don't go, Oh my God, I'm
happy. This might go away, You know,
like it's just a it's a feeling,it's a sensation.
It's and don't fate it so much. I think.
I think the other thing that I wanted to say that I would have
said to her is just do the thingthat helps, right?
(53:04):
I was so resistant to being on drugs, seeing a psychiatrist,
all these things that I felt that I that I shouldn't need and
I should be able to just shut upand just do the thing.
Like life's too short to be unhappy.
If in scenario A you get to be happy and live a live a great
and fulfilled life and scenario B is torture, why you keep
(53:27):
trying to go back to scenario B?You dumbass.
Just do the one that works, you know, And I, I've, I've wrestled
with that for years, working fora decade till I went, am I
right? I'll take the pill.
It is what it is. So I'll probably say that to her
as well. To be like who?
What medal do you think you're going to get at the end of this
(53:49):
when you prove that you got better all by yourself?
Like we don't expect that from anyone else with any other
condition. You know, I've got a dodgy back.
I've got scoliosis. I go to the chiropractor every
three weeks or so. Sometimes my back's perfect,
sometimes it's not. I don't go.
I really shouldn't go to the chiropractor, just really need
to be able to fix this on my own.
(54:10):
No, I will go to the person thatknows how to help me and gives
me some relief. And like, that's just something
I have to do as maintenance to be OK in my life and to feel the
best that I can feel. But there is a real still a
stigma with mental health that is, you know, vastly reduced
that if you are someone who takes pride in being, I've
(54:33):
honestly never thought about this before until you've said
this takes pride in being capable, independent.
I don't need anyone look at me. Give me a task, I'll do it.
I'll kick that goal, you know, I'll figure it out.
And even if I don't figure it out, I'll do my best and it'll
be OK to to to kind of go like, yeah, maybe this one you can't
do on your own. And that's cool.
(54:56):
It's not a goal that you have to.
Achieve I mean, I think you kindof summarised it well yourself
there. You've you've viewed overcoming
anxiety and now I don't have it anymore and now my because my
meds work really well and you that's you, you're wearing your
medal that I don't want you to wear.
(55:16):
Like I'm so proud of you for howyou deal with your mental health
and how extremely different lifelooks from 22 year old you.
But sometimes I think it's important for you to put that
metal down because it's not a badge of honour to be like say
now I don't have it anymore. You almost go tick recovered.
Now I can talk about it. I guess I just want to finish
(55:40):
today's episode in maybe something that is a little bit
uncomfortable and saying I wonder what it would look like
moving forward if you took the medal off for being so high
functioning now. And instead we're like, I'm
still 22 year old Danny. I still have that, but I can
just live with it in such a different way now that I I can
(56:08):
get through life in a different way.
But that's not something that I needed to solve and achieve.
And now we're a medal for. Do you know what I mean?
So I guess to, to finish today'sepisode, I, I wanted to ask you
how you felt talking about thesethings today.
Like you mentioned, you haven't really ever spoken about them
(56:29):
before because from from. My perspective.
I still feel that we were at a grocery list of milk, bread,
butter when we talked about these things and there's still
that wall. Do you know what I mean?
And I think I just want people that are listening today to
(56:51):
understand that Danny is a phenomenal example of that.
You can go from crippling anxiety, life ending crippling
anxiety that is agonising and exhausting both physically and
mentally and be thriving and happy and healthy in life.
(57:12):
And that is beautiful. And you have done that with a
combination of therapy, CBT and medication and that is
beautiful. And that is hopeful for people
and I do love that. I think it's just also an
important reminder for yourself and for other people listening.
And you know, ironically for myself, we're very similar as I
(57:32):
guess that's why we're still mates.
But to understand that it's not something that we need to wear
as this badge of honour, that we've overcome it and that it's,
I think I'm you will. Attest it.
I'm not trying to start a new conversation, but I'm very self
deprecating about it as well, which you have heard too.
(57:53):
Yeah, yeah. The amount of times that she
says in a day I'm batshit crazy,Yeah, I'm sick.
I'm sick. I don't know.
Though if that is like. Like kind of owning the label,
you know, of like that. We've got a little puppy.
That's that's I'm just going to take over here for a minute,
guys. Yeah.
I don't know if that self deprecation is still like a
(58:16):
little bit of shame, probably isto be honest, or if it's also
saying like fuck you like I am crazy.
Whatcha gonna do about it? I don't know, it's probably a
little bit of both. But I your feedback is extremely
valid and I will think about it a lot.
And damn you for seeing me for who I am.
(58:37):
I also do. Think that some coping
mechanisms can be column A and column B and it can be great and
you're just going, well, whatever.
Yeah, I am, and I'm owning it. But it can also be I'm ignoring
it and I'm just gonna make a joke out of it.
But I'm really proud of you for speaking about how you did
today. I know it's something that's
(58:58):
super foreign, and I know that alot of people will probably
resonate with Danny's experienceand especially with her
experience now in later life, I guess, coping with it and the
mask that sometimes we wear as human beings.
And I just wanted for anyone listening to understand that
(59:19):
it's two realities can exist at once, and it can be true that
you both are thriving and functioning and vastly different
to how you were in your lowest of lows and that life feels good
now. And at the same time, it can be
true that there is still a part of you that worries that you
(59:44):
will snap and have schizophrenia, or that life will
get too hard again, or that if you don't make a joke out of
something, things will crumble. It's OK that both of those
realities exist at the same time.
It doesn't have to mean that youhaven't you aren't deserving of
your medal, or that we even needone.
(01:00:05):
Do you know what I mean? I think it feels, to be honest,
like a. It's a survival medal, to be
honest. And you know, I don't use that
term lightly because I know thatagain, you know, I've had a.
Very privileged life. And continue to have a
privileged life today. But I think it's just, you know,
(01:00:26):
I went to a place that was darker than I ever thought I
would go. And guess what bitches?
I got out. And, and so you know, that to
me, like I'm, I am immensely proud and relieved to this day
that I don't live there anymore.And, and I, I think what you,
(01:00:46):
what you get from that moving forward is that at least I know
if it would have happened again,it's temporary.
And that is, that's a big thing to that's a big feather in your
cap to be able to go, OK, you know, and this, this is part of
what comes with age too. You live long enough and
hopefully I'm only halfway through my life, but you, you
(01:01:09):
know, you see so many seasons ofyour life that you go.
That was just, that was a time and this will be a time too.
And I thank you for the opportunity to talk, talk about
this. I, I was really excited about
it. Honestly, I didn't have any
trepidation about it. And I again, the gratitude I
have for any public figure or anybody talking publicly about
(01:01:32):
their mental health to get to the point that we're at now
where it is so normalised, like what that would have done for me
back then was just enormous. So to carry this, you know,
dirty little secret of, of something that that I live with,
it's just not on, you know, and it's not a secret anymore.
(01:01:52):
I talk very openly about it to people in in day to day life.
But probably the one area where I go, Oh, I wouldn't want anyone
in business to think that they can't trust me with their with
their business because they can.That's probably the one part of
it that I still wrestle with a little bit.
But also, you know, fuck em. I'm awesome at my job and I've
(01:02:12):
been doing it for a long time. And you know, this is like you
said, it's not, it's not who I am.
It's no, yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming on.
Today and for talking about it, even with that tiny part of you
that still wrestles with it, as you said, I really hope that you
guys enjoyed today's episode of Heart on my sleeve.
I definitely enjoyed delving deeper into getting to know you
(01:02:35):
and I'm sure this is just the start of the conversation and
I'll be harassing you for the foreseeable future on going
deeper. So I will see you guys in the
next episode. Thank you.
My emotions have a natural tendency to dissipate unless
they get reinforced. And so if there's more thoughts,
more stories, more intentions that come along.
(01:02:57):
So the act of how am I leaving it alone?
Is an act of not act adding. More.
Stories adding fuel to it so it might not go away in 2 minutes,
but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix it, we've
become the person who makes space, heart, the mind to relax
and settle away itself.
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