Lewin de la Motte: my personal therapist bears all...

In episode 41, Mitch Wallis speaks to his personal therapist. Lewin completed six years of tertiary education in psychology and counselling, learning from leaders in the fields of relational, mindful, and somatic psychotherapy.

Lewin has been my personal therapist for over 6 years and has seen me at my lowest points. This episode explores all of your burning questions about therapy and sheds some light on the answers that no therapist has been bold enough to tackle.

This episode covers:

• supporting Mitch through his darkest moments
• the biggest misconception about therapy
• can we truly heal without professional support
• the unspoken grief when you lose a therapist
• the reality of why therapists become therapists
• his own childhood trauma and story of shame

If you'd like to connect with Lewin for professional support, you can do so here: www.harbourtherapyclinic.com.au/practitioners/lewin-de-la-motte

Stay connected:

www.instagram.com/mitch.wallis

Have feedback to share, questions you want answered or guests you want to see on the show? Get in touch: [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome back to another episode where today I'm talking to my
therapist, my own personal therapist who I've been working
with for about 6 years. And I'm excited to give you a
glimpse under the hood at some of the stuff that we discuss.
As well as trying to destigmatize humanise who a

(00:21):
counsellor is in real life, so that people who are listening
aren't so scared of professionalhelp to to see and understand
that with the right connection, safety and calmness you can get
stuff off your chest that you would have previously thought to
be impossible. OA few of the technicalities
about Lynn's experience. He's a gestalt therapist.
He has a graduate Diploma in Counselling.

(00:43):
He weaves modern relational psychology with ancient earth
based wisdoms gleaned from 15 years of experience in Zen
meditation, Taoist arts, TibetanBuddhism and indigenous
ceremony. He's completed six years of
training as a councillor and Gestalt psychotherapist,
learning from leaders in the fields of both Eastern and
Western psychology. Academically, he has written a

(01:05):
master's thesis on eco psychotherapy as well as the
paper on wilderness therapy withadolescents, which is shared
with professionals interested inbringing psychological practises
outdoors. Furthermore, he leads a
consultancy for organisations seeking to learn healthy
communication practises through his Raw Circle curriculum.
Overall, Lewin is just the embodiment of what a safe,

(01:27):
connected therapeutic relationship can look like.
Mr Liu, my personal therapist. This is an episode long
anticipated mostly by me, but maybe so.
So happy to have you here. Yeah.
Thanks for having me. I when people ask you know I've
I've probably referred I don't know 30 plus people your way and

(01:48):
it's so nice to be able to because I'm not doing one on one
clinical practise with confidence.
Suggest Someone Like You to themand you have been integral in my
healing journey and think why that is is because you are
probably the most non judgmentalperson I know and as per the

(02:09):
research in widest therapy work often it is the quality of the
relationship and the container formed more than the actual
practical interventions used. What would you say is like your
number one value that you bring to therapy?
Like what is something that you hold true?
Well, presents. And you know this is.

(02:33):
This is a perfect way to. You know, put my money where my
mouth is and. And you know, as I talk about
presence right now, it's like. It amplifies it straight away.
And it makes me. When I yeah.
When I say it's my biggest value, it's.
It points me towards a few different values because as I'm.

(02:56):
As I'm talking about presence, it makes me feel humble, It
makes me feel vulnerable. And.
Yeah, it it shows me how to pickup on things that.
My mind might not necessarily pick up on.
And. Points me towards the need that
that person has. Hmm.
And and so much of the time needs are.

(03:19):
Unspoken and unconscious. And if I can trust enough in the
moment and and show up, then those needs usually emerge.
What do you think is I'm going to throw some big questions at
you. Yeah, yeah, we're going to go
around a few places. So what do you think a human

(03:41):
being's greatest need is? To feel safe, this is the first
thing that comes up in my mind. To feel.
Loved and by love I'm. I mean.
Deeply known and deeply seen. Um.
And understood. Hmm.

(04:03):
Yeah, but without the safety, without that rest into.
I'm OK. Fundamentally, OK.
Then nothing else can be built upon that.
So yes, safety 1st and. And then love and.
Deep understanding. What do you think is the

(04:25):
greatest way to allow someone tofeel understood?
I know it's a bit. Kitch to say or whatever the
word is to say. Listen.
Because that's. An unfolding lifelong art form
listening. Yeah, but deep listening.

(04:48):
And. And I think I get to deep
listening by willingness to feelin my own body what that person
is expressing and feeling. With boundaries, you know, with
a sense of or, I can feel and resonate.
What you're experiencing, but I'm over here and I'm.

(05:11):
I'm resonating, but I'm not overthere in your feeling with you.
I'm just resonating that and if I can.
Sit in that balance of open receptivity.
Then yeah, then that's pretty magical and healing, I find.
In your experience with people wanting to feel understood, what
is the main thing that they wantto be understood for when they

(05:34):
come to therapy? Hmm, wow.
It's a big question. It's so varied.
Hmm. I can talk about some themes.
Having a sense of place, like a sense of place in the
relationship. And a sense of purpose.
And. That's definitely one.

(05:57):
They want to be understood in their differentness.
And often that can come out through.
That's kind of funny roundabout way, like I can be doing all
these codependent behaviours like rescuing and helping and
fixing, but in the end there might actually be a need under

(06:19):
there of like. Who am I?
In this, you know, and it's justa funny way of finding that.
Like by. Like losing myself in the
relationship. Actually, I end up coming back
to Oh well, no, I need to. I need adventure in my life or I
need to follow my own happiness and that sort of thing, so I

(06:42):
think. Yeah, I see a lot of this.
Codependency polarity thing happening and I see a lot of
yearning for. Individuality.
And getting lost in in. Enmeshment.
What I'm hearing is a theme of relationship issues.

(07:05):
Like relationship is a thing, how to relate to others seems to
sit at the epicentre of what people are looking for.
Purpose feels maybe a little bitdifferent to interrelatedness,
but purpose and how we relate topeople that are important to us.
Would they be two themes? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And who am I in in relationship to others?

(07:30):
I think identity in terms of rights of passage is a big one.
So that's what I mean by that islike young mothers who.
Have adjusted their their littleone is turning two or three or
five and they're starting to have distance and then they're
feeling into like what who am I now?

(07:50):
Like I was this. This businesswoman before or or
whoever they were before. And then they go into the
birthright of passage and suddenly they're everything
transforms their body, their heart, their relationships.
And then they come out the otherside and they Who am I now?
And I don't. I can't tell them who they are.
I don't know who they are, but Ican support them to discover

(08:11):
that. Yeah, for themselves.
There's so many people that are scared to go to therapy.
What's the biggest misconceptionyou think about those who want
to seek professional help but are just petrified of doing so?
Sorry, what's the what's the biggest misconception that
people have about therapy that they scared of but don't

(08:34):
actually need to be scared of? Hmm.
I I think people are scared of being judged and pathologized or
or confirmed that they're broken, that there's something
wrong with them and they might even be thinking they should go
to therapy because of there's something wrong with me.
But that's absolutely not. The way that I see it, or the

(08:56):
way that I engage in therapy, it's therapy is kind of actually
the opposite of that. It's about helping people wake
up from their shame. And wake up from this illusion
of like there's something wrong with me I need to fix, like a
machine. There's this faulty bit that I
can just replace. Maybe it's a ill and I can take
and then I'm better, but it's not like that.

(09:18):
It's a whole lot more. Complex and generally longer
term than that. So yeah, it's you're not fixed,
you're not broken, so you don't need to be fixed.
That's one misconception. But other fears could be.
Stigma, you know, stigma around.Being weak or feelings awake?

(09:42):
It's yeah, it's it's weak to feel.
There's big stories around that for a lot of people, or it's
dangerous to feel. The two that come to mind, have
you ever been scared to tell your own therapist something?
Yeah, pretty regularly. Like every few months they come

(10:04):
across some something that is like oht damn it drive to go
there. It's been a little while since
I've had therapy. Actually, it's been.
Um. How long?
Spin it, probably. Year and a half or so.

(10:25):
Hmm. OK, we're getting real now, but
yeah, I lost my. Therapist who wasn't?
Necessarily a therapist, but more of like a a mentor and.
A healer and an absolute master.Michael Trembath.

(10:45):
A few years ago now. And so I've been recovering from
that and I've had therapy with other people, but I haven't
really settled down into a new therapeutic relationship with
someone since him. And I think that's partly due
to. A grieving process.
But also a natural process of taking space for myself and

(11:07):
going about healing in in other ways rather than that one on one
format. What?
Thank you for sharing that. What do you miss about Michael
the most? Well, yeah, his deep
understanding and holding of me.The.
Yeah, the the sense of how he would hold me because it was

(11:30):
also somatic therapy. So physically, you know, he'd
hold the back of my head or gently hold my shoulder or.
Have do subtle manipulations. And I didn't get that from.
Older men in my life, very oftenthat intimacy of just holding

(11:51):
and with the emotional focus is unique.
So it would just, I would kind of be like butter to that.
And on a subconscious level, I didn't know that it would feel
like that, but being held by him.
Enabled me to drop into those deeper layers of childhood
vulnerability. Because we often, when we say,

(12:12):
can you hold space for someone or they've held that emotion?
We're talking about metaphorically containerizing a
psychological space in which something can be shared and left
out in this ether. But in this instance, you're
talking about a physical touch almost, that, when done in a
professional way, felt incredibly comforting for you.

(12:33):
Yeah, yeah. I like how you say when done in
a professional way. I think it takes a large degree
of skill and. Yeah, to really hold someone in
a safe way, but I've never heardof that before, ever.
Yeah, so yes, somatic psychotherapy is 1 label or he.
He was a bit of a mixture of different traditions, so from

(12:54):
the eye Vedic healing traditions, but he was also
trained in psychology, Western psychology, so and massage and
stuff. So he was definitely
integrative. And you talk about your your
childhood wounds. We all have them.
And I think one of the biggest misconceptions, to go back to an
earlier point that many people have about therapy, is that

(13:14):
therapists have it all figured out.
They're the experts, They're on a throne judging you.
Whereas, like almost every single person in the field got
into it because of their own shit.
Can you tell me about a a a formative experience or memory
in your life that led you down apath of needing to heal
something? Hmm.

(13:35):
Well, I mean, I think I know I. Actually, I've had this
misconception that I started thesession with which was I'm
broken. You know this shame story from
when I was. Very young.
Probably around 5:00 when my dadleft.
Um, and when my dad and mom separated so that.

(14:00):
I think was the the spark of that story, of that
vulnerability and that seated within me this illusion that I
needed to somehow fix myself andso.
Thankfully, I was so passionate and about exploring that that
illusion that I I just was a what does that Dishanti call it?

(14:24):
Addicted to being a spiritual tourist for like.
You know, all through my teens and 20s and maybe it wasn't
until mid 20s that I I felt likeI gave up the kind of seeker
search for fixing that. I'm broken story and and

(14:44):
actually it's funny I bring up Adyashanti because.
He's a Zen teacher from the San Francisco Bay Area and.
He had a big impact on on me waking up from that story and
stopping, looking outside for validation and and.
Actually just resting into my. Itself and my wholeness and.

(15:06):
My presence so. Yeah, I think that's.
Separation from my mom was the tipping point.
And then I went on this big journey.
Yeah. And I I know you do a lot of
healing work. I mean you have to give in the
space that you hold for other people and how much that can

(15:28):
impact you Is there, has there been an insight?
I mean, I'm sure there has been many, but one that you can
recall where you uncovered a layer of pain in yourself that
change the way that you viewed yourself.

(15:49):
Like, what's a story that you used to tell yourself that you
no longer do other than the I'm broken?
This is one that still comes around.
I have to. Fix.
Like. Fix other people.
Fix my relationship, my relationships.

(16:11):
I have to yeah fix and mend and and help and.
Yeah, it is one that I've been conscious of recently.
But. I think learning how to listen
and. Learning, counselling and
psychotherapy and studying psychology and and it's been.

(16:34):
About letting go of that. Ironically, because people
perceive these fields as, um, yeah.
Yeah, learning, learning how to fix people.
But. And in a way it is, but on a
deeper level, for me it's about.Facilitating growth.

(16:55):
And I definitely was codependentor running around trying to help
everybody for a little while there and still do from time to
time. But I catch it quicker these
days, yeah. How do you not jump in when
you're seeing a client and you can so very clearly see the path

(17:15):
forward of what's hindering their ability?
Or said another way, might help the capacity to grow, but you
you know that you just need to sit in that with them for a
little while longer so they feeltotally heard, validated and
probably will get there on theirown.
How do you not jump in? Yeah, that's an ongoing skill

(17:38):
of. Yeah.
Is this necessary for me to offer?
A path that I might see or that I that I see, I try to get away
from that. Even if it's here and it's like,
oh I I know, I can see they justneed to set boundaries or they
just need to express themselves.And then it's it's like it's all

(17:59):
there. And I think I do my best work
when I let that remain there, informing me and waiting for
them to come into their own realisation.
And I also think there's a placefor like.
Giving healthy challenge and going, you know, maybe it is
about boundaries or but not going OK, here's the exact AB CD

(18:20):
of how to get there. Yeah, I find.
I find therapies that kind of dance between facilitation and
sometimes offering helpful structures and frameworks.
If someone's flailing about going, look, I just, I'm out of
control, I need some structure. I'm going to go, OK, now
breathe, find your feet, ABCD. But then once they've

(18:42):
stabilised, I'm going to go OK, how do I support you to create
moments of that regulation in your life?
What do you think? Where do you feel safe and
connected? And then off we go, yeah, so
many people don't feel safe, connected or OK, you know, one
of the one of the biggest questions I always get asked and

(19:03):
I, I have a viewpoint on how to answer this, but I've never
really, I don't think I've askedyou this before.
I would very much appreciate your insight.
Is mental health issues getting worse or has it just been that
we're reporting on it more? And if it if things are getting
worse with time, what do you think is the main factors

(19:24):
driving it? Well, huge question, yeah.
Yes, I feel like. Oh, in what context are we
talking here? How big do we want to go?
But whatever comes up. Yeah, whatever's coming.
Yeah. What's coming up for me is.
The inner. Western world, or I'll just talk

(19:44):
from my own experience in in theclients that I'm seeing and
across, I would say generally weird cultures, you know,
western, industrialised, wealthy, white cultures.
And then there's the mental health.
It is a big crisis. Um, you know, you probably talk

(20:08):
about this all the time, like depression being the leading
cause of disability and things like that.
That's all a bit heady, though. In my own experience, I hear
this. I hear that people are lost and
feeling like they don't really have a sense of like, narrative

(20:30):
or story behind their life. And there's a lot of pursuit of
materialism and success and all this kind of stuff that feels a
little bit empty. And it's like, what's?
What's my life about really? Hmm.

(20:52):
What is my what's driving my life?
What are my passionate about? And what am I interested in?
And these questions aren't really, I think they're yearning
to be asked. But there's so much chaos on a
political in, on a political level, on a world level.

(21:14):
And there's so many big crises happening.
You know, crisis of environmental destruction,
crisis of wars and all this stuff going on that people kind
of dissociate and get numb from all of that and then follow this
line of, well, I guess I should just be successful and make lots

(21:36):
of money, because that's the narrative.
But what? Like, what are we living for?
And that's kind of sounding a bit like a religious question
really, but I or philosophical question.
But I really feel like there is a big crisis of meaning going on

(21:57):
around the world at the moment, and that that existential crisis
of meaning is part of this big mental health epidemic, along
with a bunch of other environmental and dietary stuff.
Yeah. OK, so so let's this is a really
good line. I want to keep walking down this
path. So what what we've heard from
you. Well, what I've heard you say is

(22:18):
that you do agree mental health.Is it getting worse?
It's not just that we're reporting on it more.
The society is genuinely struggling, particularly in
western white orientated cultures with the proliferation
of anxiety, depression, etcetera.
And if I've heard you correctly,it's a sense of a lack of

(22:39):
meaning, purpose, and direction that you think is the core.
Element of that worsening and soI guess the natural progression
of this discussion is. Why are people feeling more
lost? And in order to answer that
question, I guess we gotta go back and say why weren't people

(22:59):
feeling that previously? What's the delta there?
So we go and contrast time periods.
And then I'd also like to your perspective on contrast
cultures, so our Eastern cultures less lost and more
fulfilled. What can we learn about time and
culture? Yeah.
OK. So the first thing that's coming
up for me is that people are lost.

(23:23):
And I've felt lost because of, you know, I've talked about
meaning and and the crisis and meaning.
I actually think if we can tracethat back, it's more about a
connection to nature and a connection to place and
connection to culture. So nature's sense of place and

(23:43):
sense of culture, they're all intertwined.
And I see that as being the big chasm in in like say Australian
culture or whatever that is Australian society, the mixed
bag of of cultures that Australian society is.
And I don't like talking on behalf of other cultures.

(24:04):
So like, I'll be hesitant to talk about that, but I can.
I have had experiences in different communities, different
indigenous communities and and Ihave felt more connected in
nature based cultures. I've felt more of a sense of
meaning and purpose, and I've felt more myself in on that

(24:29):
deep, existential level. So I think they have a lot to
offer us. Um, and a lot to offer how we
heal. So your mental health is just a
part of that, but I believe it'sa much more holistic thing.
And yeah, does that, does that. You know, so that that's a there

(24:52):
was more of an identity it sounds like and that identity
was based in connection and community to something else,
whether that be land, whether that be the people who they were
surrounded by. That's how you would identify.
Whereas maybe now our identity is very much individuated and

(25:14):
transient and materialistic in terms of how we identify.
And so therefore our connectivity to identity can
vanish a lot quicker and feel a lot more.
Non, non substantial. Yeah, and so.
So are we Are we trying to find meaning in the wrong things?

(25:35):
I guess I think so. Hmm.
What is? What is meaning and purpose to
you? How would you define it?
A driving force that doesn't come from my mind, doesn't come
from just making myself feel safer or it's not really about

(26:00):
me. It's it's about the network of
people I'm connected to and the place that I'm connected to.
Hmm. What?
Who? Is there a group of people out
in the world who you think or know through data are getting it
right from a mental health perspective?

(26:21):
And what elements of that works that we can learn from here in
the West. I've felt the most alive and
healthy and vibrant when I've been engaging in.
I guess I'd call it like the nature connection movement.
And that's like a a bunch of different communities and

(26:45):
crossovers between like rewilding skills and you know
rewilding camps where you go outwith a bunch of families onto
into, you know usually private land on a river somewhere or in
national parks and you just human together.
You just camp and play and engage in nature connection.

(27:10):
And that framework was developedby a group of people.
Well, many groups of people, butparticularly who I've loved
learning from as John Young and at all.
And others. And they, yeah, going to these
rewilding camps like on the South Coast with Gigi and up up

(27:33):
north there's Kate and Sam doingtheir, their thing with nature
philosophy. Um, there's something so natural
about that way of being. And yeah, that that feels the
most holistically healthy. But of course, that's just a
lucky, privileged kind of momentin time.

(27:53):
And it's kind of like, how can we take the lessons from those
weeks out on country together, living in learning how to make
fire by friction and learning how to track animals and how to
harvest wild food, wild greens and things like that.
How do we take those and weave them back into our everyday life

(28:15):
in the city or wherever we are? And there's amazing people doing
that work. So yeah.
I'd be interested in what is thewhat's happening in those
moments that you feel most alive.
Just it just so happens to be oncountry and nature of of what
does that actually representing what need is being met there.

(28:38):
Like every need, like need for aliveness and sensual connection
to a living world. Need for deep understanding and
achievement. And you know like my I used to
go to these camps as a as a mentor it's called and and a
good mentor ask good questions doesn't really tell how to go

(28:59):
but follows along and and so mentor for the for the kids and
it'd be you know like 50 kids and then you know 30 mentors and
we just go out and you don't have to be an expert.
You just have to be kind of interested and meet them where
their curiosity is And you know if I'm really into flowers and

(29:21):
plants I'll be like, oh hey cool, what's this?
Or and then and then engage their curiosity like that and
then it's like oh how many petals does it have?
What colour is it? And that real, tangible
relationship with nature, like through nature to that other
person that's beautiful and healing and yeah, and meets a

(29:44):
lot of needs and meets attunement.
It meets safety. It meets play.
All the attachment needs, really.
Yeah. I have.
So attachment something we work on a lot and I think it informs
a lot of your work in how you deal with clients.
You're how would you summarise your clinical approach?

(30:07):
I know that you're largely gestalt informed, you use a
mentalization approach, you havesome cognitive behavioural
therapy skills, you flex attachment psychology.
Is there any other? Things that inform your approach
to healing. You covered a lot of the main
ones there. I'll always be a kind of gestalt

(30:28):
fist at heart, whatever that word is.
But gestalt therapy is deeply influenced how I view the
therapeutic process, and I thinkthat's fundamentally what it is.
It's a way of being. How would you define Gustav for
people that don't know what thatmeans?
Yeah, it's the practise of beingin the moment together and

(30:56):
talking around the moment. It's kind of very Zen in that
way. But it looks at how we relate,
you know, between the therapistsand the client and then pays
attention to particular patternsin that relating and then takes
those patterns of, say, caretaking or intellectualising

(31:18):
or getting into the head or something and then goes, oh, OK,
so that's happening with you andI.
Does that happen in relationships?
Yeah. And then you then you expand
that to the other levels. So that's part of it.
As I said, presence. But it's also about embodiment
and feeling rather than thinkingour way through problems is kind
of like using our body brain. Yeah, and I definitely feel all

(31:44):
three of those pillars with you whenever I'm in session with
you. And I think one of the
distinguishing features of Gestalt is that unlike other
therapy modalities, where the therapist will be intentionally
making you the subject, unpacking your history and
trying to like, change you and understand your life, a lot of

(32:04):
Gustav and the way we work together is we use whatever is
playing out in real time in the way that we're relating as a
sign. Goes for the work that I need to
then go and do, because our relatedness is unfolding in real
time and the accumulation of of the conscious and subconscious
trauma that is happening over years and decades, kind of

(32:26):
playing out in real time right now.
And that's why I like it, because there's constant little
golden Nuggets of green flags ofI want attention like I'm a I'm
a thing that lives inside Mitch that wants attention.
Yeah. And from that, some pretty
amazing things can emerge. Yeah, they say nothing's not the
work when you're doing the work.So it's kind of like everything

(32:48):
is possibly relevant. It doesn't have to be relevant,
but when you're doing the work or therapeutic work, it's like
you can listen to those little voices of you pay attention to
me or see me or I'm scared or whatever throughout play and
exploration of what's happening between us, yeah.

(33:08):
What do you think, switching forthose that care or are
interested in terms of my growth, the voices, the
narratives, the whatever else that you've seen me evolve the
stories over the years. What do you think is the biggest
growth you've seen in me? Yeah.

(33:29):
Wow, that's a hard one. It's like every session we have,
we have these. I love working with you because
we have these kind of the realisation is are very
tangible. I get excited along with you and
um, it's been a but at the same time it's been like a I've

(33:52):
really loved journeying with youover a long time because I've
seen such a pivot in in you fromlike a settling into yourself.
And I see this deep trust or knowing in yourself and your
mission and your and your valuesthat is emerging, particularly

(34:15):
at the moment. And you you encourage me to step
up in that. Like even coming along on this
podcast. It's like this is a new thing
for me. This is a little bit scary but
mostly exciting and but it's just are you birth this you know
and and it doesn't surprise me, you know when you have all of

(34:37):
these amazing ideas and projectsand it's like Oh yeah, of
course. But I think you've got to
believe in yourself in order to do that.
And I've noticed that belief just strengthening and emerging
deeper and deeper. Well, thank you.
That's really nice to hear your therapist say that.

(35:01):
What do you think? And by the way, you have my
consent to answer as honestly asyou want and feel.
I have nothing to hide, so you don't need to this courageous.
Yeah, other than early say awesome things, of course.
What do you think is the biggest?
Issue that I have faced or stillface that holds me back You

(35:26):
personally. Yeah.
Wow. Nice difficulty in slowing down.
Yeah and like resting into real non doing not just like I'm
gonna meditate now cause it cause I should you know 12

(35:47):
minutes and then like a deep rest that is like you can OK And
then whatever needs to emerge can emerge would you say?
100% And my follow-up question was going to be, what do you
think the lack of slowing down represents about me, like what
am I running from? Well, what am I trying to run

(36:09):
quickly toward? You know, if this wasn't an
interview, I'd flip that back atyou.
Yeah. Yeah, I won't do that.
Yeah, look, what's coming up in my mind for for whatever reason
is I'm enough. Like a deep sense of I'm, I'm
enough no matter what I do. Like, because you're always

(36:32):
doing all of these things, but what if you if you made it, what
if you've already made it? And what if that the value, your
deep value is not in what you dois just in who you deeply,
inherently are. And I think that's what I'm
talking about is emerging in you.
But I I think adds to that belief emerges in you'll be able

(36:54):
to slow down or and the trust inthe spontaneity of life and the
that progress in these huge goals you have there, arising.
They're already kind of here, but they're coming.
Yeah. Sometimes I see you get caught
in this. Yeah.
Yeah. Towards the because I know
you've just got such high expectations.

(37:16):
Yeah, I think you and I both know that there's a constant
pursuit of wanting. To feel lovable, I guess, or
appreciated enough. Validated and we've done so much
work around it and come a long way, as you say, but there's
still a ways to go. And I think some of that speed

(37:36):
is driven by insecurity, some I think there are some aspect of
high performance. It always is.
I think for me, one of my main reflections in therapy, and I've
told you this before, is that. There was a period or a chapter
there where? We were in survival mode, you
know. We were deep in the fucking

(37:57):
trenches for a moment there, where I was scraping by.
Particularly after I've just come back from America and we
really kicked off that relationship and I remember
just. You know, I was having suicidal
fantasies at the time and and I the OCD was crippling.
The depersonalization was crippling and.
A lot of that work was like justbuilding those bricks and those

(38:20):
layers and. What is delightful now is having
something to stand on and therapy.
Has turned more most of the timeinto how to go from stable and
solid to thriving. Yeah versus hey, how do we get
me from surviving to neutral? And I think as a therapist, that

(38:43):
must be hard, interesting reporting and lots of other
emotions to support people at different stages of their
journey. That's why I love like
psychotherapy or long term or medium term psychotherapy
because it's you get to see all the seasons and yeah, I guess

(39:05):
was there a question in that? Or no more version.
Yeah, just dropping that in the wishing well, just to see what
spun around. Yeah, I I feel like that.
I mean, it's beautiful in the vulnerability and in the in the
depth of helplessness. It's a beautiful place and a
really hard place to go there with.

(39:26):
Like it was hard to go there with you because of the care I
have for you. But it's.
I just know how powerful it is there as well.
And that's those moments where it's so helpful not to to rescue
but to accompany and go wow, yeah, I don't know.
And then I guess to support you in building those foundations up

(39:50):
and yeah. And then to see you thriving is
just, yeah, it's wonderful. So yeah, and and at the same
time like other clients that I work with.
Sometimes it's just one of thosephases and I have to just sit
with them and then that's the end of that journey.
And maybe it is just sitting with him in deep pain and I

(40:12):
don't get to see the roses or there isn't roses at the end.
And so, yeah, it's a privilege when I can have the whole.
Do you believe, do you believe to that point that connection is
the greatest medicine for mentalhealth?
Yeah, yeah, whatever. Connection is right.
This is the this is what, I guess this podcast is about.

(40:34):
It's like, what is connection and that mystery.
But yeah, the true felt sense ofbeing connected to another
person and accepted loved. I think that's the essence of
therapy. Um.
To allow yourself. To be connected enough safely to
someone else. To heal the wounds.

(40:58):
Of not feeling enough, maybe, yeah.
To heal the wounds of when you didn't feel connected.
Are you felt disconnected? Hmm.
Yeah. And I don't know if this is too
reductive and overly simplified,but maybe that one of the single
greatest things we can do as a society and as a world to try
and reverse the trend of mental ill health and suicide is to.

(41:18):
Queue a disconnection, or at least mitigate and reduce it as
much as we possibly can. Yeah, cure this connection.
I mean, I don't know if we can. I think this connection is
always going to. I was going to be there, but for
me, I feel like the best thing Ican do is get as connected as I

(41:41):
can to my body, to my feelings, to the food I eat, to the people
in my world, and to, you know, to my clients and friends and my
community. That feels like the work.
And yeah, and it feels, I have hope in that in trying to kind

(42:02):
of keep it simple in a way. Like what is I start with my
body. I start with my food and my
sleep and foundations and then just try my best to to nurture
myself. And that gives put sets me up to
being a an available place to show up for other people, you

(42:22):
know? And I guess that's where the
challenge is, is I rush around like everyone and I get lost in
doing and anxiety and stuff as well.
And it's just that ongoing journey of like, gonna slow
down. OK, see it.
Just enjoy the coffee, Enjoy thesit at the river or be here with

(42:44):
my mom, Oh my brother, just be there.
Just drop everything, yeah. Do you ever get?
Traumatised. I mean, I get asked this all the
time, working mental health, howdo you keep going because you're
this so much energy coming your way and so much pain you're
holding for other people. I don't do one on one.

(43:04):
I, you know, use other vehicles like speaking and
entrepreneurship and stuff, but you do and.
I Do you ever feel like you takeon too much and as a result
experience vicarious trauma? And B, what do you do to prevent
that and then treat that? Yeah, I think maturing is a

(43:25):
therapist. I mean I I've been in this
therapy game officially for 11 years and kind of unofficially
before that as a as a as a teenager.
But you know in my early 20s to now and I'm 34 is yeah and yes,
I've had. I think as I've matured, I've
had times of my boundaries coming down and I'm absorbing

(43:50):
too much and taking too much on and say not going to supervision
as much as I needed to, not dancing as much as I needed to,
not going to jujitsu or meditating enough, et cetera.
Like filling my cup and establishing my energetic

(44:11):
boundary, which is flexible and absorbs and allows for
connection and love, but also helps me separate from stuff
that might not be mine. But like high levels of
dysregulation, I don't need to meet the client or meet, you

(44:31):
know, the client. In that I can.
I can notice them going into their overwhelmed lizard brain,
but I can stay in my own grounded safety in in my body,
feeling of my bones. And I think that's just an
ongoing process. There's been one time where I

(44:52):
was working a lot at a psychiatric hospital and just
the sheer volume of work and thesheer volume of people that I'd
see in groups that I'd run everyday, that just kind of slowly
eroded my boundaries. And then I was pretty close to
burnout when I left and I didn'tleave.

(45:14):
I went from full time to day programmes and started doing
three days a week with the outpatients rather than the
impatience. And that was a really healthy
move for me and I was able to recalibrate and go, whoa, that
was too much. And I've kind of ever since then
been slowly working less and less and try to see how like how

(45:37):
much can I, how little can I work and still be satisfied and
and pay the bills but like be yeah, but I really am trying to
value my time with my wife more and.
And someone else. And yeah, and the little little
one coming in December, So that's going to be happening

(45:58):
more and more. You know, like now I'm just
trying to compact my hours in the day and work around all
these different boundaries to mean that I'm showing up as best
I can for her. And I think that's really
important. And so, how to prevent burnout?
As in this space, Yeah, in this space.
And vicarious drama. Trauma, particularly embodiment.

(46:21):
Ask, say more. Does that mean what that means
is? I mean, I was talking about this
bubble thing, like one being able to be affected and attuned
by the other, the other person'semotions, but having a sense of
my own breath. And so it's like, oh Oh my God,

(46:43):
that's, you know, this stuff right here and that we're here
is sometimes just like heartbreaking.
But allowing myself to have my heart broke and allow that
energy to move and not tensing into it so it's like oh and
allowing my breath to soften my my muscles to relax.

(47:08):
So yeah, so I don't tense into the the difficulty of where that
person is going and. Yeah, I think what you're going
is you feel and then it moves through you and you let it go.
It's through like you said, hold.
Yeah. And and I it didn't really agree
with that. I don't really hold people's
emotions for them, although I think subconsciously that can
happen because vicarious trauma in a way is kind of like my own

(47:32):
personal traumas and difficulties resonating with
that person's trauma, and it shows me where I haven't the
places I haven't met. So being a therapist is a is a
very honest and vulnerable job because it will show me what I
need to see. Yeah.
And it has, and it kind of does.Whether you want to or not,

(47:54):
yeah, well, I want to or not. Like, I have to be open to that.
If I'm not, then I'm just kind of cut off and yeah, I'd remain
2 in my head. Yeah, it's tough.
I. I think the real time embodiment
is key, which is the active feeling with someone and then
letting it move through you. I I always imagine it like a

(48:16):
conductor of energy, not a container for it.
Like if lightning hits the metalpole, it feels it and then
discharges it. Yeah, whereas a bucket will fill
up and up and up and eventually overflow.
And you know, even though it's not the same as you, because we
shared different. Experiences.
I know that when I hear people stories, I hold it with them and
then I I sometimes have mantras or behaviours that I'll do in

(48:38):
order to let it go. Like I'll say out loud, this is
not mine at all. I'm giving this back now and all
my behaviours will be I'll go and shower or run in order to
like cleanse. Oral pray for someone And that's
kind of like my bookend to say II can't hold this right now.
I'll give it over. I'm giving it up.
Yeah. Yeah.

(48:59):
And so there's it becomes like atriad instead of a jewel.
Yeah. Do you have behaviours or belief
systems that help you stay regulated in boundary to other?
Yeah, great. One is I'm not responsible for
their journey and their healing.Yeah, even though they might
sometimes come to me in in like help fix me, like solve my

(49:21):
problems, it's like I'm here to to to support you.
And then I I do have a real mental process of show up as
best I can and then I let them go and let them go back into
their field their their life. And I kind of in a way pray in
non religious sense just like that.

(49:42):
I that they get the support theyneed and I Orient them towards
that support. Hmm.
And sometimes it is sad when when they can't, when they, when
they isolate or they don't have access to support if they're you
know, in a in a difficult spot. But yeah, I I think it's a it's

(50:06):
a shift for me. It's like, OK, after the session
I let them go, but sometimes I don't and I have to catch myself
like, is it 7:00 PM at night andI'm having dinner and I've still
got a client on my mind somewhere if that's happening.
That's one of the indicators, like, OK, no, I haven't.
I haven't like let go of work for the day or I'm doing emails

(50:28):
too late or that kind of thing. So I think boundaries for me
like very practical boundaries, as in like my general boundary I
try to keep to and I'm not perfect, but after 6:00 PM it's
like I'm off. Occasionally I'll message
someone podcast link or something like that, but I try
not to because it's yeah, it blurs the line and then yeah.

(50:53):
Have you ever been so moved or touched by someones story that?
You have been unable to work with them.
Hmm. Not that I've chosen.

(51:16):
I haven't actively said now thisis too too much or this is too
close to home for me. I haven't actually had that
experience yet, but I have worked with some people where, I
don't know, for whatever reason,that kind of just happened.
Like we had a few sessions and Iwas kind of like, whoa, this is

(51:36):
this is hard, this is a big one for me, and I'm getting
activated And then they haven't continued the search.
Maybe it was subconsciously kindof expressed.
There's been a couple of times where it wasn't really a fit,
but I hadn't. I didn't have to make that
explicit and say, look, this is too much for me and I haven't
felt like it was ever too much. Um, I probably could go with

(52:01):
trying that out more. Actually, my supervisor did
suggest that recently with someone that I was, like, not
sure about working with and he was like, you're about to have a
baby, What do you reckon? You just say, yeah, I can't, I
can't do this. Hmm.
And I I didn't end up doing it. It's a confession.

(52:22):
I I ended up regulating some fees I had around this person
and and sharing these fees with the with the client and and then
as I did that and helped them create more support in their
life, I felt less pressure and was like oh they're actually
more supportive than I realised.Again, I'm not.

(52:44):
I can't fix them. What do you look?
You know how as as help seekers,as clients, as humans, when
we're actively going out and trying to search for
professional help? I coach and we are coached to
assess a fit. You know I are you with the

(53:06):
right therapist and largely that's based on connection and
safety and all that stuff. What does the therapist do to
assess fit of a client? Like what are some of the things
you ask yourself to be like? This is good for from my
perspective too. Yeah.
Well, I actually have a little caveat on my intake form that
says I do not work with people aBC and one of, I'll just share

(53:33):
some of mine. I mean, it's pretty personal,
but one of them is I don't work with people at the moment
actively involved in court casesor soon to be involved in court
cases. I've done that work before and
even though I state that boundary, you know, still like I
ended, I've still ended up working with one that that was

(53:56):
something that arose later through the course of therapy.
It wasn't as we started the the journey and I've chosen to stay
with her through that and I'm actually very grateful for that.
But it takes a lot more holding than a traditional journey.
There's a lot more complexity and time that it takes outside
of those sessions that I just don't have space for right now

(54:16):
with my current life situation. So that's one that and I
literally put that on the intakeform.
So I guess that's part of the ascertaining the 2nd is God.
I'm just forgetting that, Oh yeah, if you're if you're
engaged in addictive behaviours and aren't willing to be

(54:40):
abstinent from them and then getsupport around that, that
doesn't mean you have to be perfect and never have a
relapse. It just means like.
Are you at a point of acceptance?
Yeah. Are you in denial or not?
Yeah, in denial. I don't.
I can't work. With you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.
And that's OK. Like if it's really important,
therapist work with people through the denial process.
I've also just done that for some years.

(55:02):
And then now I'm just like, no, I need you When you hit rock
bottom and you're. Ready.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's one of my others,
yeah. Yeah.
And then when you're in the roomwith someone, when are you like,
Yeah, I think this is going to be really beneficial for them.
What? What some qualities that you see
in someone coming into therapy that?

(55:22):
That often leads to better outcomes than not.
Well, I'll I'll go along with what 2 elders in psychotherapy
world suggested which was the ability to focus.
They call it focusing or felt, aren't tuned into their felt
sense, the embodied bodily felt sensation of emotion.

(55:46):
So someone who's willing to feeltheir feelings, yeah.
Or even, yeah. Who's willing to even learn or
remember how to feel the knot inthe gut or the tightness in the
chest, like, and to make the journey through dissociation,
through through numbness into the body, because that's where
the emotions can be felt and cleared it.
We can't really just do it through the head.

(56:08):
We can't do it through the head alone.
Yeah. And what's another attribute off
the top of your head? So yeah, felt sensing capacity.
And that's a huge spectrum. The second is, um, well,
willingness. But that's so vague.
Like. A want to get better despite it

(56:30):
being tough. It could be so hard.
It could be so terrifying to be seeking help but some sort of
willingness the the people that tend to really do do really well
is are have other supports in their life as well or are
prepared to start to create those.

(56:51):
It's like, oh, I've got no friends that don't drink.
It's like, OK, well, yeah. Wow.
That's. Yeah, of course.
And well, are you willing to find other avenues, to find
other connections so that you can give up that alcohol or you
know, as an example, It's like the willingness to actually
shift their lifestyle. What doesn't work is people

(57:14):
going to therapy and being like,OK, I need the silver bullet and
then I'm just gonna go back and just go back and shit the same
thing. It's like no, like therapies,
like a practise for like, oh fuck, now I have to do what I
said, that I was gonna go to thegym or I'm gonna.
Yeah, they're doing is the hard part.
The knowing is the easy part, yeah, yeah.

(57:34):
Is there a this some left field questions that I'm just
genuinely curious in? Is there a?
A mindset or a cognitive? Thought process that you have
seen to be almost universally beneficial to someone.

(57:55):
In, in, or outside of therapy, just for mental health in
general. What is like a thought that is
very helpful to have a mindset? Hmm, I don't know.
That's your answer. The mindset, mindset, the
ability to say I don't know, andthe willingness and the humility
to be in the unknown and wonder.I know a big part of my journey

(58:20):
was thinking I knew a lot. Or you had to know.
Or I had to know in order to be loved, right?
To be clever and to to seek lovethrough through knowledge.
And so one of my mentors saw me in a receptive moment and she
went, hey Luke, can I give you some feedback?
I was like, yeah, so I just saw you really in your.

(58:41):
I know. And it would be really
interesting for you just to practise just catching that
every time you want to go. I know and have that energy
towards someone and yeah, that began the unravelling.
And I'm still going through the unravelling.
I know I'm the expert. I do it heaps still actually.
But anyway. We're all a work in progress,

(59:01):
yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah the the stories can be so entrenched in at the NSA and and
I know is one of many things that I think we all.
Are wrestling with at any point in time.
And it takes, it does take work to create a new reality for

(59:27):
yourself. Do you think people can change?
I see people change all the timeand and I guess you're trying to
get to like, yeah, what is, whatare these change agents?
What are these these qualities of change like?
Yeah. So willingness and openness.
And um, perseverance, dedication, dedication to

(59:51):
feeling through the suffering and knowing that there's there
is another side but that yeah, they're willingness to to feel
and I guess the dedication to doing the work.
Yeah, and I don't know if it's planned this way.
In almost every session for the whatever six years I've seen
you, we always tend to come backto 1 underlying emotion, which

(01:00:16):
is shame. And I don't know if that's just
with me or you find that with lots of clients that there's a
seed emotion that seems to do most damage in most of life,
which is shame, right? Yeah, I've read somewhere once
that shame is the core consolator of all feelings.
Something like that. And I really have been

(01:00:39):
contemplating that. I feel like it's generally true.
There's probably areas that it'snot true.
It's It's usually a constellation of like shame and
fear, or shame and anger or shame and loneliness.
And it changes for each individual, IE emotions that
relate to connectedness, or saidanother way, the consequences of

(01:01:03):
disconnection. Yeah, well cause I think when
trauma happens it it. Shame accompanies the the
initial initial. Nervous system blowout, you
know, So when something overwhelming happens, our
nervous system gets too much energy rushing through it and we
blow a fuse. That's one thing that we've got

(01:01:24):
to treat like the rebalancing ofthe nervous system, but then for
some reason, the accompanying. There's something wrong with me,
or I made a mistake, or it was my fault, or this shaming that
happens with it. It seems to be universal.
And we've got to also deal with that.
So recovery from trauma is recovering.
Yeah, those two things together.As well as a whole lot more than

(01:01:48):
that. But they're two of the.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many things I want to
ask you. I will turn to a couple of
questions that some people submitted through the Q&A that I
put live on Instagram. I can't get to all of them.
Here's a couple rapid fire. You don't need to go deep on any
of these, alright. Can you avoid Can someone avoid

(01:02:10):
going to therapy but get better?Well, yeah, There's many paths
to healing. Yeah, yeah.
Doing the same. More.
That's good. Double click once more on that,
yeah. If they're creating connection
in other ways in their life, then it can be possible to heal.

(01:02:31):
But if they think that they can isolate into their suffering and
continue to try to just grit andbear it through it.
Deny, deny, avoid. Shame.
Yeah, we'll just figure it out and try to do it by themselves.
I just don't think it's going tobe very hard to do that.
People can do that. People are incredibly resilient
but. One should happens.
Get connected. What do you think is the goal of

(01:02:54):
mental health? What do you think the goal of
healing is? To what does the end destination
look like? Far out.
The goal of mental health being how we are.
What if how you are is hurting? Well then the full acceptance of
how we are can enable a transformation and a meeting of

(01:03:18):
that. Hurt.
And hopefully, hopefully then compassion and self love will
arise through that. So how do you know you're there?
How do you know that you're mentally healthy?
When your life life reflects that, back to you through

(01:03:38):
healthy relationships, through loving people, through a sense
of engagement in in your where you are.
Um, I think how you know when you're not healthy is when
you're isolating and when you'refeeling like your body's not
your own and you're feeling lostand confused or feeling like you

(01:03:59):
don't know. Wait time.
So I guess it's much harder to find health and Wellness than it
is to to flip it like, well, howhow would you define mental
illness? Hmm.
Disconnection from. Either your body, other people.

(01:04:27):
Or the universe, The world around you.
That's a holistic perspective onthat.
But and then the OK and then thesubsequent imbalances.
That arise. Within your.
Your mental patterns and your emotional patterns, so.

(01:04:51):
It's so hard to to bring it downinto a mental health problem
because mental health is physical health and vice versa
and is environmental. So like, I don't really see it
that way. That's why I'm struggling with
this answer because it's like, you know, anxiety.
We try to define, as you know, the difficulty in.

(01:05:12):
Disengaging from fear based, often future based thinking and
getting lost in a cognitive realm with that fear and
disconnecting from the fear as it's felt in the body.
So. That's so, Then see how I like
in defining anxiety? It has to be about where the

(01:05:34):
imbalance is and where the disconnection from the embodied.
Sentences. So am I oversimplifying it if I
say mental health is where one feels connected and mental
illness is where one feels disconnected?
Well, yes, but and and I know people want these like

(01:05:54):
simplistic definitions and things like that and and that's
the tricky thing is they're not simple.
Yeah, it just challenges us to put to to to go into like what
is this really, you know, when when we're forced to find
something simply, yeah, I think it's a good push to.
Get to the essence, right? Yeah, Yeah.

(01:06:15):
And and I and I think I could dobetter at that like.
What is? What is mental health?
I I think it's many things. It's free floating ability to be
adaptable and flexible, to have a sense of energy and
motivation, healthy levels of dopamine.

(01:06:35):
It's like the ability to self regulate and calm ourselves.
Yeah, having, having, as I've said before, vision, purpose.
There's so many things. Yeah, Yeah.
You know this capacity to be. Both able to be tangential in

(01:06:59):
your thinking, or diverse divergent in your thinking, but
also be able to concentrate and track.
Hmm. So yeah, there's so many aspects
of the mind though. Maybe just a balanced mind.
That could be one way of putting.
Dan Siegel defines it as integration.
Yeah, integration. Yeah.
Like, yeah, vertical and horizontal integration and

(01:07:20):
braved on brain states. Yeah, I.
Or, said another way, the absence of rigidity or chaos.
Yeah. So that's kind of balance.
So maybe that's my end answer would be balanced deal like
imbalance some some other thingsthat we got here.
What's the best way to detach from pain?

(01:07:44):
I guess attach 2 pain, Not necessarily.
Attach. Yeah, but get as close as is
safe to pain. And tolerate the pain.
Without falling into it or detaching from it, and as a
result the pain will, you will grow the strength to hold that

(01:08:04):
pain and it will move through. And then, yes, exactly, you grow
the strength to. Be able to meet the pain and
yeah, and then release it. And then the emotional blockage
doesn't stay blocked, it enabledis able to flow.
When people say I need to work through something, I need to
process it, are they effectivelysaying I need to feel it in

(01:08:30):
order to let it go? Or are they saying I need to
build strength to it so that it can stay as volumous as it
already is? It just feels less because I'm
stronger. Like does, does the emotion
reduce, or does your capacity tohold it increase, or both?
Both. I think capacity comes through.

(01:08:55):
Strengthening to. As we strengthen our feeling of,
say, um. Our ability to stay and
mindfully present. And how?
Presence on our. On say safe parts of the body
like the feeling of the weight under the your sit bones or your

(01:09:18):
ribs breathing. When that is strong enough, or
you've connected enough times tothose sensations, then the.
Scary sensations of the big emotions can flow within that
and so. 1st is building those foundations and then secondary
comes that more surrendered, more feminine willingness to let

(01:09:43):
the feelings flow. Do you believe that?
An emotion? Oh, let's say this another way.
Do you believe that a a wound, an emotional wound, A trauma,
and a negative experience needs to be felt in order to be

(01:10:07):
healed? Like, can you ever bypass
feeling the negative shit in order to feel better?
Or is there a tax to be paid every time?
Yeah, you can't. You can't bypass it.
Yeah, you you know, you can't goover it.
You can't. You got to go.
Gotta go through it. Yeah and yeah.
And that could be easily taken the wrong way and people would

(01:10:29):
be like, feel your trauma, Rah. Yeah, that doesn't work either.
So it's like the skill of. Field Art of Trauma Recovery is.
Feeling in a safe way so that your nervous system just doesn't
get re traumatised again. Hmm.
Do you believe mental health? Mental ill health is more caused

(01:10:54):
by the nature or nurture. And I'm gonna have to go both
but. It's genetic and environmental.
If I had to pick one, like say it was like had to pick one,
it'd be nurture. But it's absolutely both, Yeah,
yeah. But I say that because of

(01:11:18):
epigenetics and and. The what my experience is that.
We can change our. Blueprints.
We can change our genetic inheritances.
And yes, we might have certain genes switching on certain
beliefs. But we can change the way that

(01:11:38):
they're expressed and how those genes express certain potentials
through repetitive, embodied action in the world.
Beautiful. Some random ones here.
Is it normal to sexually fantasise about an ex?
Yeah. Yeah, I hear that.

(01:12:00):
I hear that every now and then is yeah, yeah.
Is it normal to be friends with an ex?
Yes, absolutely. I think what this person might
be getting at is. I mean, I can only imagine but.
It depends. It always depends.

(01:12:21):
So like, yes, it's normal to be friends with an ex.
But I would also say that usually it takes a long time to
learn how to unravel the chords and disconnect in a healthy
loving way. And usually it does take a time
of distance and space to really come back to yourself before you
can have a a friendship that's not actually subconsciously

(01:12:43):
still connected on like a sexuallevel or on other levels of
dependency. So I do always suggest, um,
taking that slow and taking timeand actually having periods of
separation before you try and befriends again.
As a generalisation, yeah, agree.
Have you ever been intimidated by a client?

(01:13:06):
Oh yeah, yeah. I often get intimidated by
really successful entrepreneurial people, kind of
like yourself. But I have other clients that
I'm really inspired by, and they're really, you know.
Doing these incredible things for the world and for the
planet. And I'm just like, whoa.
And sometimes I have insecurity around that.

(01:13:26):
Alright, well. Sing me.
Yeah. Yeah, but quickly, the
vulnerability. Yeah, but quickly that
vulnerability, that insecurity leaves as we develop the
connection. Yeah, for sure.
I mean, I am inspired by your ability to hold emotion the way

(01:13:53):
that you do and connection and the same thing that you're
seeing in others. People are admiring about you,
right? Yeah, that's just in different
flavours. Yeah, a friend of mine reflected
that to me. Yeah, a long time ago.
And I'll always remember that. Of seeing something really deep
in him and like, wow, it's like describing this bear, like

(01:14:15):
stability in this amazing strength of character that he
had. And he's like, you know, you're
starting to see that in me because it's emerging in you.
I know that was a deflection back to me, but it was true.
It was starting to realise my own bareness and projecting it
on him. Well, this has been an

(01:14:37):
incredible discussion. We're going to walk this home
with a couple of final questions.
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
Hmm. Oh gosh, I'm just filing

(01:14:57):
through. The plethora of advice is what's
something you live by. Reality is not something to be
fixed. Or healed.
It's something to be recognised.So.

(01:15:21):
I took that to mean. Like healing?
And myself is not something to be fixed, it's just there to be
recognised and that deep recognition and deep seeing and
the. The surrender into that, that's
been really powerful for me. I don't need to be fixed, I just

(01:15:43):
need to be recognised. I love that.
Um, yeah. That's the one that's coming to
mind. So much of the time, it hasn't
been about words that I've really held onto.
But a feeling and unknowing. And.
You know, sitting there with like my adopted grandmother and

(01:16:07):
and she's just this mountain of a woman.
This elder, you know, And she just seeing her shift from this
playful little child to like. This.
It's a huge presence. Yeah, I'll never forget that.
The feeling versus the the words, yeah, that's.

(01:16:30):
And experiences of being held and understood and inspired and.
Watching, you know, mentors of mine run up a mountain at 60.
Hmm. Like.
That's what I remember. Is there something that you wish
I'd ask you during this podcast that I haven't?

(01:16:56):
A. No, it's been beautiful.
But I I was just thinking as I talked about one of my mentors
running up a mountain. We didn't get into the whole
Rites of Passage men's staff like, and that is something that
we've talked about before and that's the whole field of.
Interest and passion of mine. I'm definitely not expert in it,

(01:17:20):
but I. I just love the question of what
would the world be like with? Modern day.
Rites of passage that are tailored to the individual and
the community. And it's happening more and
more. Thought.
I really feel like part of how we get out of this mess is

(01:17:42):
through reimagining nature basedrights of passage for for all
types of people, whether it's Menzies for young women, Menzies
rituals that is also emerging ornot emerging.
Reemerging for in many communities but or similarly
puberty rites of passage for young men.

(01:18:02):
I think it's absolutely. So important and I was talking
to in my own men's group this last week, we were talking
about. This quote that I heard
somewhere if you don't. Yeah, and initiate them or the
village will burn. And.

(01:18:25):
I I've, I think it, I've heard it's, I've been tied back to an
African community. That said it, but it fills me
with like terror and. And sadness at the realisation
of what's happening to our. World right now.
And in in the disembodied adolescent leadership that's all
over the world. But it also fills me with hope

(01:18:48):
because I can. I see the power of initiation
and the power of ritual and ceremony to transform people's
lives, so I'll hold on to that. That's so nice.
Yeah. That comes back to your feeling
before around or your comment before.
And you'd like to to to see things in action versus hear

(01:19:14):
them being told to you remember things more like that.
And I think that's true. In therapy, like there's a lot
of a lot of healing that's come by simply observing you with me.
Like I've become more calm. Not because you told me to be
more calm, but because I've watched you be more calm and
feel you be calm. I am now embodying calmness.

(01:19:35):
Yeah, yeah. It's a it's a great way to
learn, I think a great way for therapy to unfold as well.
Hmm, Rapid fire. What are three things that you
do to maintain your mental health?
Balance my sleep. Low carbohydrate based diet.
And. Daily connection to nature.

(01:20:01):
That there's so much more but there's there's just the three
yeah, make sure my sleep is good, diet is good.
And and each connection every day, like gardening or walking
out in nature. One book you would recommend.
People Who read or, well, the Dow Day Ching, particularly by

(01:20:28):
Lutsu Lao Tzu. It's an ancient 2500 year old
collection of poems from the youknow, you could call it
indigenous, an indigenous Chinese philosophy, but I
particularly like Stephen Mitchell's translation of the
Dow Day chain. It's Tao TE Ching that's changed

(01:20:50):
my life. That book, I got it when I was
14, and I'm still reading it andgoing what?
And last but not least, if we were to never speak again, which
we obviously will for many yearsto come, but.
What would you what would you, what note would you leave for

(01:21:11):
me? To remind myself to for me to
listen to in my ears. Everything will be OK.
That felt right. Is this what came up?
Hmm. It's the feeling, right?
Yeah, yeah, it's the feeling. Brother, thank you so much.

(01:21:38):
I know that it's a rare insight to and a rare experience for
someone to interview their own therapist and for the therapist
to agree and be let in like we have to your mind, to your
views, to our relationship. And I think that's pretty
special. So massive.
Thank you, Brother Marshall. So welcome.

(01:21:59):
Yeah, it was a real pleasure. I feel fantastic.
Thank you. Thank you, brother.