August 29, 2025 • 48 mins
This week on the Heart on My Sleeve podcast, Mitch Wallis sits down with NSW MP Adam Crouch for a raw and deeply moving conversation about love, loss, and resilience.
After losing his wife Jill—an oncology nurse who cared for others while bravely fighting her own battle with cancer—Adam shares the realities of grief, the weight of supporting a partner through terminal illness, and the importance of community, vulnerability, and honest conversations.
With courage and authenticity, Adam shows us what it means to keep living in honour of those we’ve loved and lost.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us. Inside us.
I've been very interested in this problem for a long, long
time. Something settles.
Hey guys. Welcome back to another episode
of the Heart on my Sleeve podcast.
I'm your host Mitch Wallace and the founder of Heart on My
(00:42):
Sleeve and I'm joined today by the incredible Adam Crouch.
Adam is the NSW opposition member for Terrigal on NSW
Central Coast. He's also the shadow minister
for corrections and the shadow minister for Central Coast and
the opposition whip for the Liberal Party.
He's an incredible man and his wife unfortunately passed away
(01:04):
from cancer in 2024 after a 2013diagnosis.
Her name is Jill. She was an oncology nurse at
Gosford Hospital herself, treated cancer patients whilst
suffering from the illness and despite treatment, she
unfortunately lost her life to the to the illness.
And we go into an incredibly vulnerable conversation today
(01:27):
and it's amazing as a for a member of Parliament to be so
honest, so authentic, so vulnerable about the love of his
life. And as he refers to it, to her
as his world being taken from him too early.
He explains it in such a human way, how he's dealt with that
over the last year or so, describing grief as a tsunami,
(01:52):
non linear and sometimes something that suffocates him.
But yet he carries on and thrives thanking his community
and he's coping techniques as a way of him being able to
navigate this tremendously difficult time, make meaning
from it and live a life in her honour.
(02:12):
So without further ado, here is an amazing conversation with
Adam Crouch. Crouchy.
The reason you're here today is because we recently ran hard on
my sleeve day at NSW Parliament,Which as the founder of a
charity was a massive thing to have recognition in a setting
(02:33):
like that. And you came down and you put on
the tattoo and you had a chat tosome of my team.
And unanimously everyone kind ofcame back to me and said you got
to have a chat to Crouchy. He is the, the embodiment of of
what it means for for someone towear their heart on their
sleeve. And the way that we knew that is
because you, you spoke to a couple of members from my team
(02:55):
and said that you'd recently lost your wife.
And that talking about it was the thing that has got you
through and enables you to stay above water to to this day.
Starting with a bit of a tough question, but what did she mean
to you? Oh, look.
She was everything. I mean, I, I was really lucky,
Mitch. I got the privilege of marrying
my best friend. So we were married for 26 years
(03:18):
and unfortunately we couldn't have kids.
Jewel couldn't have kids. So it was just the two of us.
So, you know, I said I was luckyI married my best friend.
We did everything together. So yeah, she literally was the
centre of my universe. And I was so lucky.
You know, very few people get tomarry the best friend.
And, you know, the statistics show that I think 51% of
(03:38):
marriages end in divorce. Well, that was definitely never
going to be ours. And we had 26 amazing years
together. And you have good times and bad
times, like all marriages. But you know, it was, it was a
true partnership. And I was, I was, I was so
lucky. I mean, we always used to choke.
I was punching above my way. And yeah, with Jill, I was
certainly punching above my way.I was a very lucky man indeed.
(03:59):
And but obviously all that sort of changed in 2013 for us.
Jill got made redundant. She worked in a publishing house
at Harbour Commons. And I was looking at going into
a political career, not something I'd plan to.
But she got diagnosed with breast cancer.
She was studying to become a nurse, ironically, and she was
(04:22):
most of the way through her degree.
And we were away and on remember, we were away in New
Zealand for a weekend. We had actually bid on A at a
fundraising event. And so we're away in New Zealand
and we're away. And she said, I think I've got
breast cancer. And I went, oh, well, OK.
And then I went from there. She was diagnosed with breast
cancer. It all happened very quickly for
(04:42):
us. She said because she was
studying nursing, she had a lot of support people around her who
were brilliant and she knew theythey best surgeon to talk to.
I remember distinctly they always ran on a Friday when
things go wrong. And her GP rang on the Friday
and hung up and we didn't have an answer.
I said bring him back. You know, we're adults, we can
(05:02):
we have these conversations. And he said, Oh yeah, you've got
breast cancer. A week later she had the lump
removed from her right breast. When we moved so quickly,
normally they do a full body scan and look at it and but we
moved so quickly that hadn't happened yet.
So they then did the scans afterwards and that's when we
were given the worst news. So she was, she was diagnosed at
(05:22):
stage 4. So there's no cure.
So here we are, 2013, she's doing a nursing degree.
I was looking at running potentially politically, but it,
it tips everything upside down. And because you suddenly realise
that this is a life shortening diagnosis, you know, there's no
(05:43):
cure. It's about how you learn to live
with it, manage it. But her stoicism was something
I, I, I found amazing. You know, she was not going to
let her cancer define her Mitch.And that was one of the things
that blew me away. And her GP said, oh, you know,
you need to get your affairs in order and blah, blah, blah.
And she said, well, no, I'm busystudying to be a nurse.
And she said, even if they've got to put it in the put the
(06:05):
certificate in the air and I'm finishing and, and you know,
she, she graduated top of Newcastle unit.
She got the UNI medal all while being treated.
And the university actually did an article about her, you know,
making them. It was about making the most of
the time that you don't have. So she took a very pragmatic
view about it and she wasn't able to cancer define her or
(06:27):
dictate her life. And and that that sort of set
the scene for it all because everything after that really was
secondary. Because, you know, we we did not
have an argument. I'm going to say we never argued
from 2013 onwards because whatever it was, it was never
that serious that we couldn't work through it compared to what
(06:49):
she had and what she was going to be going through.
So it re prioritised everything we did.
Never, we never argued about stuff.
But I, I'm a pretty calm sort ofperson so I don't normally lose
my temper anyway. So we just got on with our lives
and that's what she wanted to do.
So, you know, 2015 I get electedinto Parliament.
(07:11):
She never kept her cancer a secret.
She was happy to talk about it. And I think that was important
too for her and for others because they said, oh, you know,
what's it like being in remission?
She said, well, I'm not in remission.
There's no, there's no remission.
And you know, the different conversations such as, oh, you
know, oh, you could get hit by abus tomorrow.
And she said the difference is the bus is standing parked right
(07:32):
behind me revving its engine every day.
So, you know, she, she approached with good humour,
even though it was really tough and psychologically for her, it
was really tough. And I can talk about that a
little later. But again, for us it was we go
through this together. We're A-Team.
And, you know, I made sure I wasat every appointment with her.
(07:54):
Yeah. That's about sticking together.
That's what it's really about. And, you know, I don't mind
getting upset about it doesn't worry me because, you know, it
was an important part of our life together.
And, you know, someone said to me, oh, you know, would you do
it all over again? I said absolutely.
You know, our our biggest regretis that we didn't get another 26
years. But, you know, there were times
when she said to me, oh, you know, you shouldn't have to put
(08:14):
up with this. This is not what it's about.
And I just said, but the roles were reversed.
And that was me who'd been diagnosed.
You'd be here for me. She went, Oh yeah, I get it.
And and so we'd often have thoseconversations.
And there were times when the treatment was was difficult.
That's where you just got to, you just got to hunk it out and
double down on it and be there for them.
(08:35):
And you know, there were plenty of times with crap and they
often talk about the journey. Well, the journey, the journey
is shit. There's no upside to it.
It's shit. So that's where you just got to
work together on it and support each other and, and care about
each other and do it every day. And the next day is another day
and you get on with the next day.
And so, yeah, so I mean, but again, it makes you prioritise
(08:56):
about what really matters. And, you know, you see people,
you know, lose their temporary stuff.
You just go. It's not worth it.
I can tell that you have immenserespect for her.
And to be honest, it's refreshing to hear a love story
that is so pure, you know, because there's not a lot of
that in this day and age where, you know, marriages last for as
(09:18):
long as they as yours did. 26 years with Jill, I think you
said, which is inspiring, fascinating, a beautiful gift
that you were afforded. That's not to say that it didn't
hurt like a building crashing around you and suffocating you.
I can imagine what. What do you think was the
(09:40):
hardest part about caring for someone with a terminal illness?
Yeah, you want as a partner, youget really frustrated because
you want to be able to take the pain away, you want to be able
to make it or better and you can't.
So it's the acceptance that you can't fix everything as a
partner. You, you do feel really useless
at times and that can be very frustrating because blokes just
(10:01):
want to fix everything. That's our, that's our way.
You know, you want to protect your partner at all costs, make
everything OK. And sometimes you have to come
to the realisation you can't do that.
And that's probably the hard psychologically for me,
emotionally for me, that was probably some of the worst parts
because like, you know, you can do the medication and you can,
but you can't fix it. And that was that was, you know,
(10:24):
that'd be the bit to get angry because you just go, no one
should have to do this. So no one should have to go
through this. And as a partner, I need to be
able to stop this. And I couldn't.
But she looked. The other thing is she very
rarely complained about it. And you know, there's a reason
women have babies and blokes don't, you know, we cut our
finger and it's it's a tragedy. We get them a joke of the man
(10:47):
flair. I mean, the bravery, the
stoicism, the, the fortitude that that that she showed was
just amazing. And, you know, and the iron of
all of this is when she graduated, she then wanted to
become an oncology nurse. So she became a nurse where she
got treated. So, you know, I used to watch
(11:08):
her treating patients with very curable, livable cancers when
she was never going to have that.
And they wouldn't, they would never have done.
But her level of care and empathy and understanding was
unbelievable because she'd been through the worst of it.
You know, she knew the fear, sheknew the trepidation.
(11:30):
And we used to joke, you know, Icould always tell when she was
going to have a without her telling me.
I knew she was going to have a scan because we used to joke.
She'd get scan anxiety, you know, she'd, she'd get cranky
and she'd get short tempered andall that sort of stuff.
And, and totally understandable because you never knew what the
next scan was going to reveal. So, so her stage 4 cancer, I
mean, it had already metastasized to her bones.
(11:52):
So, you know, here she is 50 no 494848 and he was and she's got
these metastases in her spine. And so, you know, she then gets
them and look, you know, great treatment at cost for public
hospital. Awesome team.
And, you know, it was like a like a we used to joke about
being whack A mole. You know, another spot would pop
up, they'd ZAP it, get on with your life.
(12:15):
And but you know, they'd then there'd be a stop time where
they'd just sit down for a while.
Then she might get a bit of backpain or a bit of rib pain.
You use another one, you'd go back, ZAP it again.
And and that was a way of dealing with it.
But yeah, you know, there's, there's a doctor's appointments
to go with the, the treatment, the burning, although the after
(12:36):
effects were pretty, pretty good.
She was, she never really suffered.
But there was, there was no chemo for her because it was
stage 4 and it was in her bones.They said, look, we're not going
to do chemo because we'll save that for when it goes to an
organ And and look, you know, it's going to go to an organ.
That's what's going to happen. And with breast cancer, it's
usually bones, brain or lung. She had bone cancer, obviously
has her bones, but we knew at some point it would jump the
(12:58):
fence. And that's when, Yeah.
So, yeah. But it was it was a constant
journey for both of us. But the hardest part and the
other thing I found staggering, which she told me was that when
when people get diagnosed, all of their partners leave them.
And you just think, you know, the one time you need them more.
And I said, you know, it's like I'm not really, really
(13:20):
particularly religious. But you know, when you when you,
when you get married, you know, it's for, for better or worse,
not better or better. And and you know, you take that
seriously. So, you know, yeah, then.
But yeah, the hardest part was not being able to fix
everything. As a bloke, that's all we want
to do. What did you learn about
yourself in sitting in that space of not being able to take
(13:41):
it away? Your own mortality, you know,
you know you don't. You don't picture that in your
40s and 50s, you know, you're going to be faced with a
situation where you can't fix it, you know, and again, I, I
(14:02):
got elected. So I had a very busy public
life, which still do. But you know, it's a huge honour
for me to do what I do. It's a massive, I'm 1 of 93
people that get to walk in that place and having you guys stand
in Parliament, you've seen it. You know, it doesn't matter
whether you're red, blue, green or everything in between.
Everybody down there wants to doand wants to support and help
their community. That's really why they're there.
(14:25):
And it's an honour and a privilege.
So we got to go with our lives. We're doing the best we can.
But there were times when it was, it was scary.
There were times when the pain was, was unmanageable.
And that was really scary because you just want to be able
to, to stop that and you can't. And look, we had great
clinicians, you know, great oncologists.
(14:47):
We were we, but we were lucky inregard because, because Jill
worked in the system, she's oncology nurse, you know, she
could tell me about what to expect and so and, and she
prepared me for the worst of it.And we were really lucky at the
end of it. It wasn't that, you know,
awesome palliative care team up here.
They're just living science. But I think Jill had a
(15:07):
palliative care doctor for four years, four or five years.
So she, I think she was her longest living palliative care
patient. But again, that's about that
understanding of life and how you manage it because one thing
that you learn about this is it ends and it's about how you
manage the end of it. You don't get a say in it.
You're very rarely can you control it.
So it's about how you manage it.And we were really lucky, Mitch.
(15:30):
We had, we had years to prepare the management of it.
Some people don't get that. And would she help you help her?
Like would she be explicit around the things that taking
away the practical side of it emotionally?
Would she guide you in terms of letting you know what was most
helpful? And if So, what were some of
those things? Physically, yes, psychologically
(15:51):
no. And that was something that that
came sort of that was, that was probably one of the scariest
times. And anybody that gets diagnosed
with a terminal illness or a, oreven a, an incurable illness
usually goes through some form of depression.
And that's part of it. Everybody gets diagnosed with
cancer, goes through depression.It's a given.
(16:13):
Now, I didn't pick up on her psychological pain.
And, and that's, that's something I, and it wasn't until
it got to a point where you'll actually try to take her own
life that I, I'm going to work. And this is the irony of this.
I was literally going, I was with the minister for Mental
Health going to the mental health unit at Gosford Hospital
(16:35):
and I got a phone call and one of her own friend's support
staff said, I'm not there, but Ithink she was overdosed.
And you just go, I walked out ofthe house that morning and I had
no idea that she felt that way. And, and it was like, I can't
believe this. So very low flying between
(16:57):
Gosford and Terrigal and and, you know, she she got through
that. But, you know, the note she left
me was just heartbreaking. You know, it's just like, yeah.
Oh, gosh, yeah. What were some of the things
that she was struggling with most in that note?
Crouchy. Putting me through and the fact
(17:22):
that she couldn't see a way through it and she couldn't come
out of that darkness. And, and again, you know, I, I
look at how brave she was, but behind that, there was this a
massive amount of psychological pain.
And then, you know, when she gotthrough that, it was the, the
embarrassment of what she'd done.
And I and you know, no one, no one was judging her because of
what she was going through. And people, especially in the
(17:45):
health profession, they're very conscious of that.
So she was embarrassed about what her colleagues might think.
And it's interesting because it can happen to anybody.
What happens to so many people all the time of all age groups.
There's not post code specific and we work through that
together and, you know, got great treatment.
And once you and, and when you get that sort of level of
depression, you need to have that specialist treatment.
(18:08):
And once she got that, she came through the other side of it.
And and this is where I look at people that have lost loved ones
to suicide and you just go because you don't, you never see
it coming. There are no warning signs.
You really and you think everything's OK and suddenly
bang. Now I was lucky, you know, she
survived. This is what happens if you try
(18:29):
to overdose some pain meds that you've been using.
You build up a tolerance to them.
And, and, but I'll never forget that day.
And then, then there's that hyper, I became hyper vigilant
where if I rang her and she didn't pick up the phone, my
heart rate goes up. I get anxious because I'm
thinking, Oh my God, is she OK? Because I walked out that
morning thinking she's fine. Literally, I know that she
(18:53):
wanted to end her life. So there's, there are a couple
of things. It's an emotional roller coaster
ride that no one ever wants to be on.
But you learn to manage it and you learn to live with it.
You've got to realise that the person going through it is
constantly worrying about what others think too.
They, they, they sort of, they're, they're rumouring about
(19:14):
what others are. Their others appear on it and
it's not the case, but they can't help it.
Yeah. So it's really complex.
It's more than just a physical pain.
It's an emotional roller coaster.
I would say to anybody who's going through through this with
a loved 1, you know, never be afraid to really try and talk
openly about it. And I was lucky, you know, Jill
(19:35):
survived that, came out the other side of it, went back to
work, got on with her life, you know, had the right because it's
a chemical imbalance. Depression's not just you'll be
OK. There was there was a medical
imbalance, A psychological imbalance.
You get the medicine, you know, your life.
And she did exactly that. So.
Yeah, absolutely. And dealing, one of the things
(19:57):
that I've taken out around what you've said is shining light on
the mental health aspect of of physical health issues.
Also, what was interesting is saying that she felt
embarrassed, you know, that she tries to take her own life and
almost that on the other side ofthat people would judge her.
I think it's really important that we for anyone listening.
That that's not a reason to takeyour own life or to try again,
(20:20):
for example, because it's a misconception that people are
judging you. They're actually very relieved
that you are still with us and that that moment of judgement
isn't a sunk cost that, you know, is too far gone.
It's actually a chance to start again and to work through.
And I think that's the story of hope.
Would you agree? Absolutely, Mitch.
And and look, you know, talk to your friends, talk to your loved
(20:42):
ones. There's always another side.
There's always the next day. The frustrating part about
people still have that stigma around mental health.
It is a real physical issue, just like cancer, just like
breaking a bone, but our societystill struggles with because you
can't physically see it's manifesting and, and, but it's
(21:02):
so real. It's so painful.
And in fact, the pain for her through that was more intense
than than the cats pain. And this is what I'm saying.
There's always, you know, so if you're feeling that way, you
know, never think about you never alone.
You know, this is where your friends, your family, your loved
ones, they will, they will circle the waggons and protect
(21:23):
you because that's what you need.
That's what you need. What would you advise someone
who is supporting someone emotionally through a terminal
illness? What's a couple of tips you
would give them? Never be afraid to talk to your
friends. I mean, we, we were lucky.
(21:43):
We've got an amazing circle of friends and they will always be
there for you. They're the greatest.
I mean, look, you know, we, we always joke, you know, you, you
inherit your family and you choose your friends.
Family can sometimes be a littlebit bit of a minefield, but your
friends are there and you know who the real ones are.
And so I would say to anybody, you're never alone.
Talk to your friends. You know, they'll be there for
(22:06):
you and and look, your family can be there too.
They just got to you just got tomanage them a bit differently.
But you know, I again, I'm, I'm pretty lucky.
I mean, well, actually we were lucky because both of our
families lived in the States. So that was quite handy.
Having those arms length is always handy, but our our
friends were just they're just cold and, you know, nothing was
(22:28):
too much trouble. You know, if either of us were,
you know, you've always got an Ave but, but never be afraid to
talk about it. You know, as you've seen, I'm an
open book. I live a very public life, but
I'm not afraid to be myself. I think that's the other thing.
Don't, don't try and hide it. The blokes are terrible.
As I said, we try and fix stuff.We bottle stuff up.
We don't talk about it. I'm the opposite in that regard.
(22:51):
You know, I found that talking about it, you know, being open
about it, not being afraid to cry, you know, it, it's, it's
real. It's what people, you know, if
you don't do that, you're only going to make it worse and more
painful for yourself because it's it's it's so real.
Yeah. A lot of people think that if
they're caring for someone who'sgoing through a mental health
(23:11):
issue that they don't get to have emotions themselves.
And I'm so glad that you've spoken about how important it is
for you as the carer to lean on family and friends, not just
encouraging Jill, your wife, to do that because you recognise
that this is taking a massive toll on you.
I'm sure that in moments where she was voicing her pain to you
(23:35):
in rare occasions because you said she was very stoic, but
perhaps after the suicide attempt where she started to be
more honest, that would have been hard to hear.
Like her saying things like thisis more painful than the cancer
diagnosis itself is the emotional burden it's taking.
What what's it like to sit in that pain and and just listen
and really let that land for someone?
(23:56):
Yeah, again, as blokes, you knowdefault position is.
How do I fix this? You have to come to terms with
it. But do you think that she wanted
you to fix it? Or do you think that she wanted
to hold it with you? She just needed someone to
listen and you know, sometimes she get cranky at me.
She's going, I don't need you tofix it.
I just need you to listen to it.And it's just like, I get it.
(24:17):
And and that was something that our relationship developed over
time because, you know, as I said, I'd always say, oh, you
do. This video is like, no, no,
don't it fixed. Just need a vent.
Just need to get it out and. Did you get better at listening,
Crouchy? Yeah, I did.
Yeah. It took a while.
Took a while, but I got better at it.
And it's funny. It's it's really funny, though,
(24:38):
Mitch. In my job, I spend a lot of my
time listening to other people. Had most of it.
But doing it myself for somebodythat I'm closest to was really
hard. So I took a bit of.
Yeah, it's very common and. Of course, the other thing is
occasionally I'd sort of slip into parliamentary and she'd go
no. I don't need the MPI, need my.
Absolutely, yeah, 100 percent, 100%.
(25:00):
And that was, that was so true. And I, and I reflect on, Oh
yeah, I did, I did do that. So but yeah, look, I think,
look, I, I think it's something that that so you learn to, to
work through the, the source. I think it scared me to because
again, I, I, I thought I knew her so well and I just didn't
(25:22):
pick up on it. And that was, I was angry at
myself for not realising, but thankful that it was
unsuccessful. And then we just went through
the next steps, step by step. And again, there were hurdles
and bumps and that, but you know, stuck it out together and
they said, that's what you do. And the only time I think, and
yes, I was going to say, if you've got, if people are going
(25:43):
through this, the other thing isthe people, people with cancer,
they, they try and push you away.
It's like, you know, you don't need to go through this.
You don't need to expose this. Like that is I would say to
everybody, that's when you double down and you're, you're
back a minute going up. We're in this together.
You, you don't walk away from it, you walk into it.
(26:03):
Really good advice there. Yeah, I think that when people
are trying to push you away in that instance, it might trigger
some abandonment issues or angeror shame as a carer that make
you want to be like, what are you doing?
What Like this is hard for me to.
Why are you making it harder? Why are you putting in distance
when this is when we should be closest?
(26:25):
And I think having just knowing that that's going to be part of
the process, as you've shared sowell here today, Crouchy, means
that you perhaps are less defensive when it comes up and
you can hold the Fort knowing like, Nope, I'm not going
anywhere. I know this is part of the
process. You can't get rid of me.
And I'm going to stand by your side because it's an honour.
(26:45):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
And it's that's why I was shocked when she told me about
how many people leave their partners when they get
diagnosed. I couldn't even go up behind
that. You know, for me it was a no
brainer. You know, I'm going to every
appointment with you. And the other thing is there are
times it's information overload.So it's always better to have
somebody there with you anyway, because you can't one person
can't remember all that. And, and be a typical nurse, she
(27:07):
often wouldn't tell her oncologist about some of the
things that were really happening.
So, you know, I jump in and go, well, actually, no, she's got
pain here and she's got pain there and she'd get cranky and
I'd go, well, one of us has got to tell the truth.
And, and, and that was all part of the, I said part of the
partnership. And so, yeah, and, and again,
but anybody going through this and said there are plenty of
(27:28):
people going through it, You know, our, our, our story is
repeated thousands of times overeverywhere across this state and
across this country. You know, by the time we get to
61, person in three has a familymember of loved one that's got
cancer. By the time you get to 80, it's
one in two. But but people live with cancer
now and they they pass away withcancer in a lot of cases
(27:50):
especially. Yeah.
So there are so many treatments and so many options, but you
know, you also, you also have tobe realistic.
And I think for us, that was part of the the fact that we
knew there was no cure. We knew we had a finite amount
of time, whether that be one year, 2 years, five years or 10
years, then we got 11. But we didn't waste that time.
We did things that we enjoyed, you know, even even at the end.
(28:11):
And I'll never forget that because we, you know, Jules,
cancer was, was spreading. Her mobility was starting to be
affected. The thing that she hated the
most was it took her career awayfrom her.
Like she physically couldn't keep work.
And that really just pissed her off.
And I could see that. So I just said to her, what do
you want to do? He said, I want to go to Fiji,
right, let's go to Fiji. You know, we she said, you know,
(28:33):
we'll cash in my super and you can put that off the mortgage.
And I went, you have got to be kidding me.
You know, it's like, no, no, no,no, we're not paying this off a
mortgage. We're we're going to blow
through as much of this as we can and we're doing what you
want to do. And and again, you know, great
palliative care team, you know, good pain management, you know,
good. You know, that helped her to do
things right up to the end. And, and again, you know, we she
(28:58):
wanted to go to Europe for Christmas.
We were in the hospital the day before and she'd been in
hospital for the week clean up and she hadn't been well, when
we met with the PAL care team and I said, look, we're on a
plane tomorrow night. And they said, oh, but I said
we're on a plane tomorrow night.Don't care what you have to do,
don't care what we have to take,but we're leaving, we're going.
And, and they were OK. And, you know, I had a suitcase
(29:21):
full of opioids and, you know, she was in a wheelchair.
But, you know, we did a, we flewto Amsterdam and then did a
cruise from Amsterdam to Budapest.
We then flew to Venice. We then had a wedding and a flew
to Paris and had a wedding anniversary in Paris.
We then went to London. And three weeks after we got
back, she passed away. But as I said to those guys, you
(29:43):
know, we knew things were getting, getting hairy.
You know, we knew we were going to that point where things were
not going to be getting better. So, you know, we, we, I said I'm
not going to be sitting at home thinking we should be in Prague
right now. No way.
And I just said, look, worst case scenario, one of us comes
home in an urn, but we do it. We're going and.
(30:05):
And yeah. I love that, yeah.
But it but it was what she wanted to do.
Yeah, I can tell you really missher.
Yeah. But look, you know, we we made
the most of every minute pitch and no regrets.
That's, that's so important and that's something I would say to
everybody. Look, the pain's real.
(30:26):
And the best way I can describe it, it's visceral.
You physically feel it. And the other thing is, it's a
bit like a tsunami of sadness. You'll be going all right, and
then suddenly you can see the way of coming.
And that's probably one of the easiest ways to do it because
you can, you can see it coming. You go, oh, here it goes.
It's when you, when you don't expect it.
(30:46):
And I'm lucky I've got a job that keeps me really busy.
I represent a beautiful community and it's such a
privilege. And the support I've had here
has just been spectacular. I mean, not a day.
Here I am, 18, almost 18 months later now.
And I was saying this to you andto Mel when we're done in
Parliament, literally every day when I'm at the bow, and this is
(31:10):
not an exaggeration, someone will walk up to me and say we're
thinking of you, you're doing OK.
And, and here I have, 18 months later, and it means the world.
It makes it all that little bit more bearable.
Yeah, yeah. You have such an incredible
community around you and it's nosurprise at all that you're
(31:32):
representing them and that they believe in you as as their
leader. But it's approval.
And yeah, yeah, wow. Through thick and thin, right?
And, and you know, that's, that's helped make the whole
grieving process a little bit more bearable.
As I say, you, you never get over it.
And I when when Joel died, I mean, they offered me grief
(31:56):
counselling very because straight away and I said, look,
no. And it, it was the right
decision for me at the time. But everybody's different,
Mitch. Everybody copes with grief
differently, everybody's own mechanisms and.
What are some of the ways that you would recommend someone cope
with grief just while we're on that?
Because I think that's importantfor people to take out of this
(32:16):
episode. Accept it.
It's real. Don't be.
How? How do you how do you accept it?
Don't. Try and hide it.
The worst thing you can do is pretend it's not there.
Have a good cry. You know when you you know when
you, these are people you you'regoing to miss for forever.
So don't be afraid to have a good cry.
Don't be afraid to talk about it.
Don't be afraid to accept it. You know, there'll be days where
(32:40):
you just think, I don't want to do this.
You know, sometimes, you know, everybody has their own little
things like for me, so I'm really lucky.
I've got a job I love a community I do and, and who have
been and and are supportive every single day.
Popped out of Terrigal for a coffee this morning.
Eight people walked to me, said good day.
(33:01):
Couple said, how you doing? We're thinking about you doing
all right, you know, and here weare.
It was, you know, February 13th,2024 when Jill died.
And that's what happens every day.
So I'm really lucky I'm not alone.
I've got 55,000 support workers effectively who I love.
Some people don't have that luxury.
And I would say to anybody, if you are alone, embrace support.
(33:25):
And for me, I, I waited because I so I have 55,000 support
workers and I was able to. And look, I did what a lot of
people do. I bury myself in my job because
I could. I've got a excellent staff here
who also looked after me. But there were times when you
just needed to stop and, and they, and we don't listen to
ourselves. You know, it's usually someone
(33:46):
say, hey, you need to have a break.
So it's usually those closest toall you work with.
You say, look, you know, you need to have a break now.
And, and they did. They're brave enough and honest
enough to do that, you know, andthat's really good too.
My colleagues, I mean, parliamentarians are good
people. And, you know, it can be a
lonely job sometimes because youdon't tend to talk to everybody
(34:07):
because you also want to read about it in the paper.
But, but I found when, when it'ssomething like this, it, it, you
know, there's no Liberal Labour Greens, you know, they're your
mates and, and that's really helpful.
And I had a colleague of mine, the member for Port Macquarie,
Leslie Williams, who lost her husband six months earlier in
(34:28):
the opposite way. She literally went to the
airport to pick up the kids day before Christmas, She gets home
and Donald had a massive heart attack.
So the complete opposite to my experience where we knew what
was happening, she didn't see itcoming.
And I remember it was six monthsafter Jilla died and I rang
Leslie and I just said, oh, can I pop up?
(34:49):
And she said 100%. So, you know, we, we, we
compared notes about what we were experiencing, what we're
feeling, and our experience of death was very different.
And, you know, the last time Leslie and I were together, Don
and Jill were there too. So, you know, we, it was sort
of, it was good for us to be able to share that.
(35:09):
And, you know, talk about the times when you literally can't
breathe. Like the pain is so real.
You, you, you feel like you can't breathe and it happens and
people don't prepare you for that, you know?
It's literal heartbreak, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And look, the only thing I couldthink would be worse would be
losing a child. I mean, I, I, I just, I cannot,
(35:30):
I couldn't even begin to comprehend how a parent would
ever. In fact, we, we would never get
over it. You literally couldn't get past
that. It's how you learn to live with
it. So Fast forward for me, you
know, I spent time with one of my colleagues, which was great.
It had been six months since I'dlost a chiller, probably about
17 months since she's lost on. And but it was validation of
(35:51):
what I was feeling. She said, yeah, you know, for
us, you know, as as parliamentarians, we're out
almost every night. We're at events, we're talking
with people coming home is the is the switch off the escape.
And, you know, Jill would alwayssay who was there, what
happened? What was it about?
It was the same for Leslie with Don.
You know, it's your safe space. You could say this person, you
(36:12):
know, you could talk honestly about what your thoughts and you
lose that. And when you get home, there's
no one there. It's sort of that this is not
what I want, but I, I've got, asI said, I've got a very close
circle of friends, not huge, butbut very close.
So, you know, I can bring them anytime, literally 24/7.
And sometimes I'll just send a text saying are you up question
(36:34):
mark, question mark and the answer is call it anytime.
So you could do that and and that's important.
What about this tsunami? Because I know that grief, it
comes in these waves and I've studied it psychologically and
there are stages, but the stagesaren't linear.
And it's very common for it to just whack you out of nowhere.
(36:56):
Like you'll be driving and a smell will come by or a song
will come on or you'll see a billboard that you saw together
and then it's like bam. I suppose you know Your advice
so far has been to feel it and to cry and to grieve it and and
not be scared to to face the pain, right?
Yeah, look, look, it's almost like you need your pain.
(37:18):
It sounds weird, but it actuallyhelps you with the whole
process. And look what you've just said.
It's it's really interesting. So the day I drive home from the
hospital after Chilla died, I made sure I kept the radio off
because I didn't want any bit ofmusic reminding me of that day
because, you know, worst case scenario would have been a song
I love, which I could then neverlisten to again.
So I literally made sure I had the radio off.
(37:39):
It's almost like, you know, because I said we knew what was
happening and I said I was really lucky.
Jill's, Jill's Jill's death was,was literally perfect.
You know, she, she just quieted through her last breath.
You know, I said I prepared for all the stuff that she told me,
which never happened. It was really was literally the
perfect peaceful passing, which a lot of again, you know,
there's the death rattles and all that sort of stuff.
Never had any of that. And I was with her the whole
(38:00):
time and but it gave me time to say, right, these are the things
when I leave here I'm not going to do because I didn't want to
create those additional triggers.
And look, you know, I'm a typical tourist.
You know, I plan everything witheach of his life.
So but it goes with the job too.And as I said, my, my life is
(38:20):
planned. I live by my diary.
Everything's in my diary. And that's my that's my
protection. It's when it's outside there
that that band moment you were talking about.
Now I've managed to, you know, keep myself so busy.
The band moments weren't very regular.
It was the tsunami of oh, here comes the wife and, and you just
(38:41):
accept it. You sit back, you have a good
cry. This is rubbish.
You know, have a good glass of bourbon.
For me, I, I find movies a really good outlet.
You know, I've got, you know, especially old movies.
I love old movies. So sometimes if I was having a
really bad time, I would get on the couch, you know, get a nice
(39:02):
drink or something and watch a movie that I loved that I've
probably seen a million times, you know, and take yourself off
to a happy place. And everyone's, everyone's is
different. You know, for me it's movies.
And there were times, I'm going to say in the beginning was I my
sleep patterns were really bad after Jules death and it took a
while. So sometimes I would sit up and
(39:23):
watch a good, you know, SherlockHolmes, black and white, the old
black and white Sherlock Holmes,hop into bed, iPad, start
watching one of those, you know,an hour and a half later, boom,
you know, not at all. I was like, OK, I've had down
kids asleep. But, you know, there were times
when it was 234 in the morning and my brain was still going.
You start thinking, oh, what if we'd done that?
(39:43):
Or what if we'd done this and you can't help?
Would it have given me extra time?
The answer, of course, is no. But but as humans, we want to
get that time back. And you know, you, you give up
everything for another minute and, and that still happens.
So beautiful. But I would say that the hardest
part is if you're by yourself and if you don't have a close
(40:05):
circle of friends. So where I was getting to with
that was I said no to a bereavement councillor at the
time. Fast forward 12 months, I got
through Christmas and everythingOK.
It wasn't a big deal. I went and spent some time with
friends. That wasn't the hard part for
me. It was Jill's birthday of the
8th of January, wedding anniversary of the 8th of
January. Her birthday was the 21st of
(40:26):
January. She died on the 30th of
February. So they're all within sort of a
two week period of each other. And it hit me hard and I was
expecting and it was, it was horrible.
It was really horrible. So and I wasn't probably a
pleasant person to be around either, which is not normally me
so, but God love my staff. You know, they were blunt and
(40:47):
honest with me. You, you know, you need to now,
now's the time you need to starttalking to somebody.
So I did so made the appointmentfor the bereavement councillor
that would probably March ish. And it was the right time,
absolutely the right time for me.
And it's been a really good thing to do and the team are
(41:09):
just brilliant. And I've got this, we've gone,
we've just literally having a break now.
And we were talking about it. It's been like you talked about
the stages of grief, you know, the five stages of grief.
And you know, I can say to everybody listening to this,
they are certainly not linear. And I remember she showed me a
picture of the five stages of grief and what people are told
(41:29):
it is. And then what it really is, is
scribble it going everywhere. And yes, yes.
And I still laugh about that because it is so true.
It's like a Jackson Pollock painting all over the shop.
And the minute you try and rationalise it, you're going to
give yourself a headache becauseyou can't do it.
So I'd say to everybody, you know, I'd say to everybody, and,
and I'm sure Mitch, you've said this on, you know, don't try and
(41:52):
don't try and forcing management, don't try and expect
that this is what you have to do.
You can go one step forward, five step back.
You have 5 steps forward, no steps back.
And that's OK. It, it was, it was having the
validation that it's OK. And and that's important part of
it too, you know, yeah. And and again, the hardest part
(42:15):
I would have thought would be for people who've who haven't
got something they can fall backon.
And that's when I should say youshould say that you you should
absolutely get some bereavement support.
You know, look at what coping mechanisms work for you.
And every single, as you know, Mitch, every single person is
different. No one, there's no one size fits
all for it. And that's why wearing, we're
(42:35):
talking about wearing your hearton your sleeve.
I've found that by and I do that.
I said I'm open book. That has made it so much less
painful for me and easier because you you don't hide it,
don't try and be something you're not because it just
compounds the pain and compoundsthe issues and you go down to
(42:58):
dark places which you don't needto be in.
Yeah. Does that help?
Burying it down, yeah, it makes a lot of sense, mate.
It's it's very, very real, very true, very scientifically
accurate as well, that burying grief is like an incubator and a
furnace for it to grow. And that connection with others
(43:19):
is the way out. And the willingness to feel it
to heal it is the way through. And I know that with you wearing
your heart on your sleeve today,you've definitely helped many
people feel less alone in their own grieving process.
Less scary to walk this journey knowing that there are people
like you walking it too, Validating that it's not going
(43:40):
to be linear, and assuring them that with time this will become
liveable and manageable and tolerable.
Yeah, look, look, absolutely. And you know, what you're doing
is a really good example of, of helping people to cope and, and
again, not being afraid, not embarrassed by it.
It happens to everybody. You know, the one sure thing
(44:02):
about life is it ends. So you know, and you know, it
said we were lucky. People think, oh, this is such a
tragedy. We were lucky.
We know we knew what was happening.
So we had the ability to do things.
Some people don't get that, thatprivilege, you know, life's
taken away from them in an instant.
And that would have it's a different griefs grief and
(44:23):
everybody deals with it differently.
But all I can say to everybody is you're never alone.
And when you feel alone, there'll always be somebody that
you can talk to. And, and you need to reach out
and not be embarrassed by it. And, and look, sometimes you
don't realise that you're going through that discomfort, but
other people around you hopefully will be honest enough
(44:44):
and and close enough to say thisis not right and you need to
talk. And yeah, but I look, I love
what you guys are doing. And obviously Mel popped in
today and, you know, it was goodto talk to her about stuff.
And, you know, and, and I would say to people, you know, never
be afraid to get some professional support as well.
And I, I found it really beneficial.
(45:05):
We joke about there's a, there'sa, the window of grief, which I
knew nothing about. And I, I was window fully open.
I was, I was not a good place. And when you read open versus
closed and there's that line where you correctly try and find
a balance and you tend to flip between the two extremes.
And now I'm finding I'm getting a better balance.
(45:25):
And that's a good thing too. But there'll be times when it's
open and I'm just that's when you crack out the black and
white movie and take yourself off and, and don't be afraid to
say you need some new time. Look, there are Times Now where
I wake up, I just say, I just want to stay home today.
I'm going to stay home with my dog, watch a movie, curl up,
(45:46):
curl up in the under the donor on the couch.
And that's not a bad thing sometimes either.
You need it and it's good for you.
Well, Crouchy, it's been an honour and a privilege to to
listen to your story today and to remember Jill in such a
honourable and respectful and loving way.
It's it's nice to see men unashamedly love their wives
(46:08):
wholeheartedly. I hope that a love like that
finds me one day and and that I speak about my wife in the same
fondness that you do. Mate, what a what a gift.
I'm sorry she was taken too early.
And I'm also so happy that you were afforded a relationship
like that. That, yeah, is is truly a
(46:29):
miracle sent from God. It's been so nice.
So Crouchy, thank you for again for your time.
It's a pleasure to meet you anytime and again, it was such a
great experience meeting with you and the team in Parliament.
And I'm really, and you know, that's another step for you guys
to, you know, and you mentioned being in that place, you know,
talking to MPs It's, it's it, itmakes a difference.
(46:51):
You really do. And look, I got to say, you've
got a great organisation and what you're doing is fantastic.
And we need to do more of it. That's we just need to do more
of it. You know, we need, we people
need to wear their heart of their sleeve a lot more often
and not be afraid of it. And so thank you for for shining
that light on it and saying to people, it's OK, which it really
is. So keep up the great work mate.
You're doing an awesome job. Thank you and listen.
(47:11):
Listen everyone. Time to wear your heart on your
sleeve. And if if it's not speaking
publicly about your stories, we advocate for small private steps
to confide in just one person toget 3 words out of your mouth.
I'm not OK. And we've got a whole range of
resources on our website, campaigns, and everything we can
do to help you take those steps and start the journey toward
(47:34):
healing by feeling and communicating and connecting.
So you've heard it here first, get your heart on your sleeve A.
100% it's OK to not be OK as youguys said.
My emotions have a natural tendency to dissipate unless
they get reinforced. And so if there's more thoughts,
more stories, more intentions tocome along, so the act of how am
(47:55):
I leaving it alone is an act of not act, adding more stories,
adding fuel to it. So it might not go away in 2
minutes, but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix, it would
become the person who makes space for the heart, the mind,
to relax and settle away itself.
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:21):
us. Inside us.
I've been very interested in this problem for a long, long
time. Something settles.
Hey guys. Welcome back to another episode
of the Heart on my Sleeve podcast.
I'm your host Mitch Wallace and the founder of Heart on My
(00:42):
Sleeve and I'm joined today by the incredible Adam Crouch.
Adam is the NSW opposition member for Terrigal on NSW
Central Coast. He's also the shadow minister
for corrections and the shadow minister for Central Coast and
the opposition whip for the Liberal Party.
He's an incredible man and his wife unfortunately passed away
(01:04):
from cancer in 2024 after a 2013diagnosis.
Her name is Jill. She was an oncology nurse at
Gosford Hospital herself, treated cancer patients whilst
suffering from the illness and despite treatment, she
unfortunately lost her life to the to the illness.
And we go into an incredibly vulnerable conversation today
(01:27):
and it's amazing as a for a member of Parliament to be so
honest, so authentic, so vulnerable about the love of his
life. And as he refers to it, to her
as his world being taken from him too early.
He explains it in such a human way, how he's dealt with that
over the last year or so, describing grief as a tsunami,
(01:52):
non linear and sometimes something that suffocates him.
But yet he carries on and thrives thanking his community
and he's coping techniques as a way of him being able to
navigate this tremendously difficult time, make meaning
from it and live a life in her honour.
(02:12):
So without further ado, here is an amazing conversation with
Adam Crouch. Crouchy.
The reason you're here today is because we recently ran hard on
my sleeve day at NSW Parliament,Which as the founder of a
charity was a massive thing to have recognition in a setting
(02:33):
like that. And you came down and you put on
the tattoo and you had a chat tosome of my team.
And unanimously everyone kind ofcame back to me and said you got
to have a chat to Crouchy. He is the, the embodiment of of
what it means for for someone towear their heart on their
sleeve. And the way that we knew that is
because you, you spoke to a couple of members from my team
(02:55):
and said that you'd recently lost your wife.
And that talking about it was the thing that has got you
through and enables you to stay above water to to this day.
Starting with a bit of a tough question, but what did she mean
to you? Oh, look.
She was everything. I mean, I, I was really lucky,
Mitch. I got the privilege of marrying
my best friend. So we were married for 26 years
(03:18):
and unfortunately we couldn't have kids.
Jewel couldn't have kids. So it was just the two of us.
So, you know, I said I was luckyI married my best friend.
We did everything together. So yeah, she literally was the
centre of my universe. And I was so lucky.
You know, very few people get tomarry the best friend.
And, you know, the statistics show that I think 51% of
(03:38):
marriages end in divorce. Well, that was definitely never
going to be ours. And we had 26 amazing years
together. And you have good times and bad
times, like all marriages. But you know, it was, it was a
true partnership. And I was, I was, I was so
lucky. I mean, we always used to choke.
I was punching above my way. And yeah, with Jill, I was
certainly punching above my way.I was a very lucky man indeed.
(03:59):
And but obviously all that sort of changed in 2013 for us.
Jill got made redundant. She worked in a publishing house
at Harbour Commons. And I was looking at going into
a political career, not something I'd plan to.
But she got diagnosed with breast cancer.
She was studying to become a nurse, ironically, and she was
(04:22):
most of the way through her degree.
And we were away and on remember, we were away in New
Zealand for a weekend. We had actually bid on A at a
fundraising event. And so we're away in New Zealand
and we're away. And she said, I think I've got
breast cancer. And I went, oh, well, OK.
And then I went from there. She was diagnosed with breast
cancer. It all happened very quickly for
(04:42):
us. She said because she was
studying nursing, she had a lot of support people around her who
were brilliant and she knew theythey best surgeon to talk to.
I remember distinctly they always ran on a Friday when
things go wrong. And her GP rang on the Friday
and hung up and we didn't have an answer.
I said bring him back. You know, we're adults, we can
(05:02):
we have these conversations. And he said, Oh yeah, you've got
breast cancer. A week later she had the lump
removed from her right breast. When we moved so quickly,
normally they do a full body scan and look at it and but we
moved so quickly that hadn't happened yet.
So they then did the scans afterwards and that's when we
were given the worst news. So she was, she was diagnosed at
(05:22):
stage 4. So there's no cure.
So here we are, 2013, she's doing a nursing degree.
I was looking at running potentially politically, but it,
it tips everything upside down. And because you suddenly realise
that this is a life shortening diagnosis, you know, there's no
(05:43):
cure. It's about how you learn to live
with it, manage it. But her stoicism was something
I, I, I found amazing. You know, she was not going to
let her cancer define her Mitch.And that was one of the things
that blew me away. And her GP said, oh, you know,
you need to get your affairs in order and blah, blah, blah.
And she said, well, no, I'm busystudying to be a nurse.
And she said, even if they've got to put it in the put the
(06:05):
certificate in the air and I'm finishing and, and you know,
she, she graduated top of Newcastle unit.
She got the UNI medal all while being treated.
And the university actually did an article about her, you know,
making them. It was about making the most of
the time that you don't have. So she took a very pragmatic
view about it and she wasn't able to cancer define her or
(06:27):
dictate her life. And and that that sort of set
the scene for it all because everything after that really was
secondary. Because, you know, we we did not
have an argument. I'm going to say we never argued
from 2013 onwards because whatever it was, it was never
that serious that we couldn't work through it compared to what
(06:49):
she had and what she was going to be going through.
So it re prioritised everything we did.
Never, we never argued about stuff.
But I, I'm a pretty calm sort ofperson so I don't normally lose
my temper anyway. So we just got on with our lives
and that's what she wanted to do.
So, you know, 2015 I get electedinto Parliament.
(07:11):
She never kept her cancer a secret.
She was happy to talk about it. And I think that was important
too for her and for others because they said, oh, you know,
what's it like being in remission?
She said, well, I'm not in remission.
There's no, there's no remission.
And you know, the different conversations such as, oh, you
know, oh, you could get hit by abus tomorrow.
And she said the difference is the bus is standing parked right
(07:32):
behind me revving its engine every day.
So, you know, she, she approached with good humour,
even though it was really tough and psychologically for her, it
was really tough. And I can talk about that a
little later. But again, for us it was we go
through this together. We're A-Team.
And, you know, I made sure I wasat every appointment with her.
(07:54):
Yeah. That's about sticking together.
That's what it's really about. And, you know, I don't mind
getting upset about it doesn't worry me because, you know, it
was an important part of our life together.
And, you know, someone said to me, oh, you know, would you do
it all over again? I said absolutely.
You know, our our biggest regretis that we didn't get another 26
years. But, you know, there were times
when she said to me, oh, you know, you shouldn't have to put
(08:14):
up with this. This is not what it's about.
And I just said, but the roles were reversed.
And that was me who'd been diagnosed.
You'd be here for me. She went, Oh yeah, I get it.
And and so we'd often have thoseconversations.
And there were times when the treatment was was difficult.
That's where you just got to, you just got to hunk it out and
double down on it and be there for them.
(08:35):
And you know, there were plenty of times with crap and they
often talk about the journey. Well, the journey, the journey
is shit. There's no upside to it.
It's shit. So that's where you just got to
work together on it and support each other and, and care about
each other and do it every day. And the next day is another day
and you get on with the next day.
And so, yeah, so I mean, but again, it makes you prioritise
(08:56):
about what really matters. And, you know, you see people,
you know, lose their temporary stuff.
You just go. It's not worth it.
I can tell that you have immenserespect for her.
And to be honest, it's refreshing to hear a love story
that is so pure, you know, because there's not a lot of
that in this day and age where, you know, marriages last for as
(09:18):
long as they as yours did. 26 years with Jill, I think you
said, which is inspiring, fascinating, a beautiful gift
that you were afforded. That's not to say that it didn't
hurt like a building crashing around you and suffocating you.
I can imagine what. What do you think was the
(09:40):
hardest part about caring for someone with a terminal illness?
Yeah, you want as a partner, youget really frustrated because
you want to be able to take the pain away, you want to be able
to make it or better and you can't.
So it's the acceptance that you can't fix everything as a
partner. You, you do feel really useless
at times and that can be very frustrating because blokes just
(10:01):
want to fix everything. That's our, that's our way.
You know, you want to protect your partner at all costs, make
everything OK. And sometimes you have to come
to the realisation you can't do that.
And that's probably the hard psychologically for me,
emotionally for me, that was probably some of the worst parts
because like, you know, you can do the medication and you can,
but you can't fix it. And that was that was, you know,
(10:24):
that'd be the bit to get angry because you just go, no one
should have to do this. So no one should have to go
through this. And as a partner, I need to be
able to stop this. And I couldn't.
But she looked. The other thing is she very
rarely complained about it. And you know, there's a reason
women have babies and blokes don't, you know, we cut our
finger and it's it's a tragedy. We get them a joke of the man
(10:47):
flair. I mean, the bravery, the
stoicism, the, the fortitude that that that she showed was
just amazing. And, you know, and the iron of
all of this is when she graduated, she then wanted to
become an oncology nurse. So she became a nurse where she
got treated. So, you know, I used to watch
(11:08):
her treating patients with very curable, livable cancers when
she was never going to have that.
And they wouldn't, they would never have done.
But her level of care and empathy and understanding was
unbelievable because she'd been through the worst of it.
You know, she knew the fear, sheknew the trepidation.
(11:30):
And we used to joke, you know, Icould always tell when she was
going to have a without her telling me.
I knew she was going to have a scan because we used to joke.
She'd get scan anxiety, you know, she'd, she'd get cranky
and she'd get short tempered andall that sort of stuff.
And, and totally understandable because you never knew what the
next scan was going to reveal. So, so her stage 4 cancer, I
mean, it had already metastasized to her bones.
(11:52):
So, you know, here she is 50 no 494848 and he was and she's got
these metastases in her spine. And so, you know, she then gets
them and look, you know, great treatment at cost for public
hospital. Awesome team.
And, you know, it was like a like a we used to joke about
being whack A mole. You know, another spot would pop
up, they'd ZAP it, get on with your life.
(12:15):
And but you know, they'd then there'd be a stop time where
they'd just sit down for a while.
Then she might get a bit of backpain or a bit of rib pain.
You use another one, you'd go back, ZAP it again.
And and that was a way of dealing with it.
But yeah, you know, there's, there's a doctor's appointments
to go with the, the treatment, the burning, although the after
(12:36):
effects were pretty, pretty good.
She was, she never really suffered.
But there was, there was no chemo for her because it was
stage 4 and it was in her bones.They said, look, we're not going
to do chemo because we'll save that for when it goes to an
organ And and look, you know, it's going to go to an organ.
That's what's going to happen. And with breast cancer, it's
usually bones, brain or lung. She had bone cancer, obviously
has her bones, but we knew at some point it would jump the
(12:58):
fence. And that's when, Yeah.
So, yeah. But it was it was a constant
journey for both of us. But the hardest part and the
other thing I found staggering, which she told me was that when
when people get diagnosed, all of their partners leave them.
And you just think, you know, the one time you need them more.
And I said, you know, it's like I'm not really, really
(13:20):
particularly religious. But you know, when you when you,
when you get married, you know, it's for, for better or worse,
not better or better. And and you know, you take that
seriously. So, you know, yeah, then.
But yeah, the hardest part was not being able to fix
everything. As a bloke, that's all we want
to do. What did you learn about
yourself in sitting in that space of not being able to take
(13:41):
it away? Your own mortality, you know,
you know you don't. You don't picture that in your
40s and 50s, you know, you're going to be faced with a
situation where you can't fix it, you know, and again, I, I
(14:02):
got elected. So I had a very busy public
life, which still do. But you know, it's a huge honour
for me to do what I do. It's a massive, I'm 1 of 93
people that get to walk in that place and having you guys stand
in Parliament, you've seen it. You know, it doesn't matter
whether you're red, blue, green or everything in between.
Everybody down there wants to doand wants to support and help
their community. That's really why they're there.
(14:25):
And it's an honour and a privilege.
So we got to go with our lives. We're doing the best we can.
But there were times when it was, it was scary.
There were times when the pain was, was unmanageable.
And that was really scary because you just want to be able
to, to stop that and you can't. And look, we had great
clinicians, you know, great oncologists.
(14:47):
We were we, but we were lucky inregard because, because Jill
worked in the system, she's oncology nurse, you know, she
could tell me about what to expect and so and, and she
prepared me for the worst of it.And we were really lucky at the
end of it. It wasn't that, you know,
awesome palliative care team up here.
They're just living science. But I think Jill had a
(15:07):
palliative care doctor for four years, four or five years.
So she, I think she was her longest living palliative care
patient. But again, that's about that
understanding of life and how you manage it because one thing
that you learn about this is it ends and it's about how you
manage the end of it. You don't get a say in it.
You're very rarely can you control it.
So it's about how you manage it.And we were really lucky, Mitch.
(15:30):
We had, we had years to prepare the management of it.
Some people don't get that. And would she help you help her?
Like would she be explicit around the things that taking
away the practical side of it emotionally?
Would she guide you in terms of letting you know what was most
helpful? And if So, what were some of
those things? Physically, yes, psychologically
(15:51):
no. And that was something that that
came sort of that was, that was probably one of the scariest
times. And anybody that gets diagnosed
with a terminal illness or a, oreven a, an incurable illness
usually goes through some form of depression.
And that's part of it. Everybody gets diagnosed with
cancer, goes through depression.It's a given.
(16:13):
Now, I didn't pick up on her psychological pain.
And, and that's, that's something I, and it wasn't until
it got to a point where you'll actually try to take her own
life that I, I'm going to work. And this is the irony of this.
I was literally going, I was with the minister for Mental
Health going to the mental health unit at Gosford Hospital
(16:35):
and I got a phone call and one of her own friend's support
staff said, I'm not there, but Ithink she was overdosed.
And you just go, I walked out ofthe house that morning and I had
no idea that she felt that way. And, and it was like, I can't
believe this. So very low flying between
(16:57):
Gosford and Terrigal and and, you know, she she got through
that. But, you know, the note she left
me was just heartbreaking. You know, it's just like, yeah.
Oh, gosh, yeah. What were some of the things
that she was struggling with most in that note?
Crouchy. Putting me through and the fact
(17:22):
that she couldn't see a way through it and she couldn't come
out of that darkness. And, and again, you know, I, I
look at how brave she was, but behind that, there was this a
massive amount of psychological pain.
And then, you know, when she gotthrough that, it was the, the
embarrassment of what she'd done.
And I and you know, no one, no one was judging her because of
what she was going through. And people, especially in the
(17:45):
health profession, they're very conscious of that.
So she was embarrassed about what her colleagues might think.
And it's interesting because it can happen to anybody.
What happens to so many people all the time of all age groups.
There's not post code specific and we work through that
together and, you know, got great treatment.
And once you and, and when you get that sort of level of
depression, you need to have that specialist treatment.
(18:08):
And once she got that, she came through the other side of it.
And and this is where I look at people that have lost loved ones
to suicide and you just go because you don't, you never see
it coming. There are no warning signs.
You really and you think everything's OK and suddenly
bang. Now I was lucky, you know, she
survived. This is what happens if you try
(18:29):
to overdose some pain meds that you've been using.
You build up a tolerance to them.
And, and, but I'll never forget that day.
And then, then there's that hyper, I became hyper vigilant
where if I rang her and she didn't pick up the phone, my
heart rate goes up. I get anxious because I'm
thinking, Oh my God, is she OK? Because I walked out that
morning thinking she's fine. Literally, I know that she
(18:53):
wanted to end her life. So there's, there are a couple
of things. It's an emotional roller coaster
ride that no one ever wants to be on.
But you learn to manage it and you learn to live with it.
You've got to realise that the person going through it is
constantly worrying about what others think too.
They, they, they sort of, they're, they're rumouring about
(19:14):
what others are. Their others appear on it and
it's not the case, but they can't help it.
Yeah. So it's really complex.
It's more than just a physical pain.
It's an emotional roller coaster.
I would say to anybody who's going through through this with
a loved 1, you know, never be afraid to really try and talk
openly about it. And I was lucky, you know, Jill
(19:35):
survived that, came out the other side of it, went back to
work, got on with her life, you know, had the right because it's
a chemical imbalance. Depression's not just you'll be
OK. There was there was a medical
imbalance, A psychological imbalance.
You get the medicine, you know, your life.
And she did exactly that. So.
Yeah, absolutely. And dealing, one of the things
(19:57):
that I've taken out around what you've said is shining light on
the mental health aspect of of physical health issues.
Also, what was interesting is saying that she felt
embarrassed, you know, that she tries to take her own life and
almost that on the other side ofthat people would judge her.
I think it's really important that we for anyone listening.
That that's not a reason to takeyour own life or to try again,
(20:20):
for example, because it's a misconception that people are
judging you. They're actually very relieved
that you are still with us and that that moment of judgement
isn't a sunk cost that, you know, is too far gone.
It's actually a chance to start again and to work through.
And I think that's the story of hope.
Would you agree? Absolutely, Mitch.
And and look, you know, talk to your friends, talk to your loved
(20:42):
ones. There's always another side.
There's always the next day. The frustrating part about
people still have that stigma around mental health.
It is a real physical issue, just like cancer, just like
breaking a bone, but our societystill struggles with because you
can't physically see it's manifesting and, and, but it's
(21:02):
so real. It's so painful.
And in fact, the pain for her through that was more intense
than than the cats pain. And this is what I'm saying.
There's always, you know, so if you're feeling that way, you
know, never think about you never alone.
You know, this is where your friends, your family, your loved
ones, they will, they will circle the waggons and protect
(21:23):
you because that's what you need.
That's what you need. What would you advise someone
who is supporting someone emotionally through a terminal
illness? What's a couple of tips you
would give them? Never be afraid to talk to your
friends. I mean, we, we were lucky.
(21:43):
We've got an amazing circle of friends and they will always be
there for you. They're the greatest.
I mean, look, you know, we, we always joke, you know, you, you
inherit your family and you choose your friends.
Family can sometimes be a littlebit bit of a minefield, but your
friends are there and you know who the real ones are.
And so I would say to anybody, you're never alone.
Talk to your friends. You know, they'll be there for
(22:06):
you and and look, your family can be there too.
They just got to you just got tomanage them a bit differently.
But you know, I again, I'm, I'm pretty lucky.
I mean, well, actually we were lucky because both of our
families lived in the States. So that was quite handy.
Having those arms length is always handy, but our our
friends were just they're just cold and, you know, nothing was
(22:28):
too much trouble. You know, if either of us were,
you know, you've always got an Ave but, but never be afraid to
talk about it. You know, as you've seen, I'm an
open book. I live a very public life, but
I'm not afraid to be myself. I think that's the other thing.
Don't, don't try and hide it. The blokes are terrible.
As I said, we try and fix stuff.We bottle stuff up.
We don't talk about it. I'm the opposite in that regard.
(22:51):
You know, I found that talking about it, you know, being open
about it, not being afraid to cry, you know, it, it's, it's
real. It's what people, you know, if
you don't do that, you're only going to make it worse and more
painful for yourself because it's it's it's so real.
Yeah. A lot of people think that if
they're caring for someone who'sgoing through a mental health
(23:11):
issue that they don't get to have emotions themselves.
And I'm so glad that you've spoken about how important it is
for you as the carer to lean on family and friends, not just
encouraging Jill, your wife, to do that because you recognise
that this is taking a massive toll on you.
I'm sure that in moments where she was voicing her pain to you
(23:35):
in rare occasions because you said she was very stoic, but
perhaps after the suicide attempt where she started to be
more honest, that would have been hard to hear.
Like her saying things like thisis more painful than the cancer
diagnosis itself is the emotional burden it's taking.
What what's it like to sit in that pain and and just listen
and really let that land for someone?
(23:56):
Yeah, again, as blokes, you knowdefault position is.
How do I fix this? You have to come to terms with
it. But do you think that she wanted
you to fix it? Or do you think that she wanted
to hold it with you? She just needed someone to
listen and you know, sometimes she get cranky at me.
She's going, I don't need you tofix it.
I just need you to listen to it.And it's just like, I get it.
(24:17):
And and that was something that our relationship developed over
time because, you know, as I said, I'd always say, oh, you
do. This video is like, no, no,
don't it fixed. Just need a vent.
Just need to get it out and. Did you get better at listening,
Crouchy? Yeah, I did.
Yeah. It took a while.
Took a while, but I got better at it.
And it's funny. It's it's really funny, though,
(24:38):
Mitch. In my job, I spend a lot of my
time listening to other people. Had most of it.
But doing it myself for somebodythat I'm closest to was really
hard. So I took a bit of.
Yeah, it's very common and. Of course, the other thing is
occasionally I'd sort of slip into parliamentary and she'd go
no. I don't need the MPI, need my.
Absolutely, yeah, 100 percent, 100%.
(25:00):
And that was, that was so true. And I, and I reflect on, Oh
yeah, I did, I did do that. So but yeah, look, I think,
look, I, I think it's something that that so you learn to, to
work through the, the source. I think it scared me to because
again, I, I, I thought I knew her so well and I just didn't
(25:22):
pick up on it. And that was, I was angry at
myself for not realising, but thankful that it was
unsuccessful. And then we just went through
the next steps, step by step. And again, there were hurdles
and bumps and that, but you know, stuck it out together and
they said, that's what you do. And the only time I think, and
yes, I was going to say, if you've got, if people are going
(25:43):
through this, the other thing isthe people, people with cancer,
they, they try and push you away.
It's like, you know, you don't need to go through this.
You don't need to expose this. Like that is I would say to
everybody, that's when you double down and you're, you're
back a minute going up. We're in this together.
You, you don't walk away from it, you walk into it.
(26:03):
Really good advice there. Yeah, I think that when people
are trying to push you away in that instance, it might trigger
some abandonment issues or angeror shame as a carer that make
you want to be like, what are you doing?
What Like this is hard for me to.
Why are you making it harder? Why are you putting in distance
when this is when we should be closest?
(26:25):
And I think having just knowing that that's going to be part of
the process, as you've shared sowell here today, Crouchy, means
that you perhaps are less defensive when it comes up and
you can hold the Fort knowing like, Nope, I'm not going
anywhere. I know this is part of the
process. You can't get rid of me.
And I'm going to stand by your side because it's an honour.
(26:45):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
And it's that's why I was shocked when she told me about
how many people leave their partners when they get
diagnosed. I couldn't even go up behind
that. You know, for me it was a no
brainer. You know, I'm going to every
appointment with you. And the other thing is there are
times it's information overload.So it's always better to have
somebody there with you anyway, because you can't one person
can't remember all that. And, and be a typical nurse, she
(27:07):
often wouldn't tell her oncologist about some of the
things that were really happening.
So, you know, I jump in and go, well, actually, no, she's got
pain here and she's got pain there and she'd get cranky and
I'd go, well, one of us has got to tell the truth.
And, and, and that was all part of the, I said part of the
partnership. And so, yeah, and, and again,
but anybody going through this and said there are plenty of
(27:28):
people going through it, You know, our, our, our story is
repeated thousands of times overeverywhere across this state and
across this country. You know, by the time we get to
61, person in three has a familymember of loved one that's got
cancer. By the time you get to 80, it's
one in two. But but people live with cancer
now and they they pass away withcancer in a lot of cases
(27:50):
especially. Yeah.
So there are so many treatments and so many options, but you
know, you also, you also have tobe realistic.
And I think for us, that was part of the the fact that we
knew there was no cure. We knew we had a finite amount
of time, whether that be one year, 2 years, five years or 10
years, then we got 11. But we didn't waste that time.
We did things that we enjoyed, you know, even even at the end.
(28:11):
And I'll never forget that because we, you know, Jules,
cancer was, was spreading. Her mobility was starting to be
affected. The thing that she hated the
most was it took her career awayfrom her.
Like she physically couldn't keep work.
And that really just pissed her off.
And I could see that. So I just said to her, what do
you want to do? He said, I want to go to Fiji,
right, let's go to Fiji. You know, we she said, you know,
(28:33):
we'll cash in my super and you can put that off the mortgage.
And I went, you have got to be kidding me.
You know, it's like, no, no, no,no, we're not paying this off a
mortgage. We're we're going to blow
through as much of this as we can and we're doing what you
want to do. And and again, you know, great
palliative care team, you know, good pain management, you know,
good. You know, that helped her to do
things right up to the end. And, and again, you know, we she
(28:58):
wanted to go to Europe for Christmas.
We were in the hospital the day before and she'd been in
hospital for the week clean up and she hadn't been well, when
we met with the PAL care team and I said, look, we're on a
plane tomorrow night. And they said, oh, but I said
we're on a plane tomorrow night.Don't care what you have to do,
don't care what we have to take,but we're leaving, we're going.
And, and they were OK. And, you know, I had a suitcase
(29:21):
full of opioids and, you know, she was in a wheelchair.
But, you know, we did a, we flewto Amsterdam and then did a
cruise from Amsterdam to Budapest.
We then flew to Venice. We then had a wedding and a flew
to Paris and had a wedding anniversary in Paris.
We then went to London. And three weeks after we got
back, she passed away. But as I said to those guys, you
(29:43):
know, we knew things were getting, getting hairy.
You know, we knew we were going to that point where things were
not going to be getting better. So, you know, we, we, I said I'm
not going to be sitting at home thinking we should be in Prague
right now. No way.
And I just said, look, worst case scenario, one of us comes
home in an urn, but we do it. We're going and.
(30:05):
And yeah. I love that, yeah.
But it but it was what she wanted to do.
Yeah, I can tell you really missher.
Yeah. But look, you know, we we made
the most of every minute pitch and no regrets.
That's, that's so important and that's something I would say to
everybody. Look, the pain's real.
(30:26):
And the best way I can describe it, it's visceral.
You physically feel it. And the other thing is, it's a
bit like a tsunami of sadness. You'll be going all right, and
then suddenly you can see the way of coming.
And that's probably one of the easiest ways to do it because
you can, you can see it coming. You go, oh, here it goes.
It's when you, when you don't expect it.
(30:46):
And I'm lucky I've got a job that keeps me really busy.
I represent a beautiful community and it's such a
privilege. And the support I've had here
has just been spectacular. I mean, not a day.
Here I am, 18, almost 18 months later now.
And I was saying this to you andto Mel when we're done in
Parliament, literally every day when I'm at the bow, and this is
(31:10):
not an exaggeration, someone will walk up to me and say we're
thinking of you, you're doing OK.
And, and here I have, 18 months later, and it means the world.
It makes it all that little bit more bearable.
Yeah, yeah. You have such an incredible
community around you and it's nosurprise at all that you're
(31:32):
representing them and that they believe in you as as their
leader. But it's approval.
And yeah, yeah, wow. Through thick and thin, right?
And, and you know, that's, that's helped make the whole
grieving process a little bit more bearable.
As I say, you, you never get over it.
And I when when Joel died, I mean, they offered me grief
(31:56):
counselling very because straight away and I said, look,
no. And it, it was the right
decision for me at the time. But everybody's different,
Mitch. Everybody copes with grief
differently, everybody's own mechanisms and.
What are some of the ways that you would recommend someone cope
with grief just while we're on that?
Because I think that's importantfor people to take out of this
(32:16):
episode. Accept it.
It's real. Don't be.
How? How do you how do you accept it?
Don't. Try and hide it.
The worst thing you can do is pretend it's not there.
Have a good cry. You know when you you know when
you, these are people you you'regoing to miss for forever.
So don't be afraid to have a good cry.
Don't be afraid to talk about it.
Don't be afraid to accept it. You know, there'll be days where
(32:40):
you just think, I don't want to do this.
You know, sometimes, you know, everybody has their own little
things like for me, so I'm really lucky.
I've got a job I love a community I do and, and who have
been and and are supportive every single day.
Popped out of Terrigal for a coffee this morning.
Eight people walked to me, said good day.
(33:01):
Couple said, how you doing? We're thinking about you doing
all right, you know, and here weare.
It was, you know, February 13th,2024 when Jill died.
And that's what happens every day.
So I'm really lucky I'm not alone.
I've got 55,000 support workers effectively who I love.
Some people don't have that luxury.
And I would say to anybody, if you are alone, embrace support.
(33:25):
And for me, I, I waited because I so I have 55,000 support
workers and I was able to. And look, I did what a lot of
people do. I bury myself in my job because
I could. I've got a excellent staff here
who also looked after me. But there were times when you
just needed to stop and, and they, and we don't listen to
ourselves. You know, it's usually someone
(33:46):
say, hey, you need to have a break.
So it's usually those closest toall you work with.
You say, look, you know, you need to have a break now.
And, and they did. They're brave enough and honest
enough to do that, you know, andthat's really good too.
My colleagues, I mean, parliamentarians are good
people. And, you know, it can be a
lonely job sometimes because youdon't tend to talk to everybody
(34:07):
because you also want to read about it in the paper.
But, but I found when, when it'ssomething like this, it, it, you
know, there's no Liberal Labour Greens, you know, they're your
mates and, and that's really helpful.
And I had a colleague of mine, the member for Port Macquarie,
Leslie Williams, who lost her husband six months earlier in
(34:28):
the opposite way. She literally went to the
airport to pick up the kids day before Christmas, She gets home
and Donald had a massive heart attack.
So the complete opposite to my experience where we knew what
was happening, she didn't see itcoming.
And I remember it was six monthsafter Jilla died and I rang
Leslie and I just said, oh, can I pop up?
(34:49):
And she said 100%. So, you know, we, we, we
compared notes about what we were experiencing, what we're
feeling, and our experience of death was very different.
And, you know, the last time Leslie and I were together, Don
and Jill were there too. So, you know, we, it was sort
of, it was good for us to be able to share that.
(35:09):
And, you know, talk about the times when you literally can't
breathe. Like the pain is so real.
You, you, you feel like you can't breathe and it happens and
people don't prepare you for that, you know?
It's literal heartbreak, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
And look, the only thing I couldthink would be worse would be
losing a child. I mean, I, I, I just, I cannot,
(35:30):
I couldn't even begin to comprehend how a parent would
ever. In fact, we, we would never get
over it. You literally couldn't get past
that. It's how you learn to live with
it. So Fast forward for me, you
know, I spent time with one of my colleagues, which was great.
It had been six months since I'dlost a chiller, probably about
17 months since she's lost on. And but it was validation of
(35:51):
what I was feeling. She said, yeah, you know, for
us, you know, as as parliamentarians, we're out
almost every night. We're at events, we're talking
with people coming home is the is the switch off the escape.
And, you know, Jill would alwayssay who was there, what
happened? What was it about?
It was the same for Leslie with Don.
You know, it's your safe space. You could say this person, you
(36:12):
know, you could talk honestly about what your thoughts and you
lose that. And when you get home, there's
no one there. It's sort of that this is not
what I want, but I, I've got, asI said, I've got a very close
circle of friends, not huge, butbut very close.
So, you know, I can bring them anytime, literally 24/7.
And sometimes I'll just send a text saying are you up question
(36:34):
mark, question mark and the answer is call it anytime.
So you could do that and and that's important.
What about this tsunami? Because I know that grief, it
comes in these waves and I've studied it psychologically and
there are stages, but the stagesaren't linear.
And it's very common for it to just whack you out of nowhere.
(36:56):
Like you'll be driving and a smell will come by or a song
will come on or you'll see a billboard that you saw together
and then it's like bam. I suppose you know Your advice
so far has been to feel it and to cry and to grieve it and and
not be scared to to face the pain, right?
Yeah, look, look, it's almost like you need your pain.
(37:18):
It sounds weird, but it actuallyhelps you with the whole
process. And look what you've just said.
It's it's really interesting. So the day I drive home from the
hospital after Chilla died, I made sure I kept the radio off
because I didn't want any bit ofmusic reminding me of that day
because, you know, worst case scenario would have been a song
I love, which I could then neverlisten to again.
So I literally made sure I had the radio off.
(37:39):
It's almost like, you know, because I said we knew what was
happening and I said I was really lucky.
Jill's, Jill's Jill's death was,was literally perfect.
You know, she, she just quieted through her last breath.
You know, I said I prepared for all the stuff that she told me,
which never happened. It was really was literally the
perfect peaceful passing, which a lot of again, you know,
there's the death rattles and all that sort of stuff.
Never had any of that. And I was with her the whole
(38:00):
time and but it gave me time to say, right, these are the things
when I leave here I'm not going to do because I didn't want to
create those additional triggers.
And look, you know, I'm a typical tourist.
You know, I plan everything witheach of his life.
So but it goes with the job too.And as I said, my, my life is
(38:20):
planned. I live by my diary.
Everything's in my diary. And that's my that's my
protection. It's when it's outside there
that that band moment you were talking about.
Now I've managed to, you know, keep myself so busy.
The band moments weren't very regular.
It was the tsunami of oh, here comes the wife and, and you just
(38:41):
accept it. You sit back, you have a good
cry. This is rubbish.
You know, have a good glass of bourbon.
For me, I, I find movies a really good outlet.
You know, I've got, you know, especially old movies.
I love old movies. So sometimes if I was having a
really bad time, I would get on the couch, you know, get a nice
(39:02):
drink or something and watch a movie that I loved that I've
probably seen a million times, you know, and take yourself off
to a happy place. And everyone's, everyone's is
different. You know, for me it's movies.
And there were times, I'm going to say in the beginning was I my
sleep patterns were really bad after Jules death and it took a
while. So sometimes I would sit up and
(39:23):
watch a good, you know, SherlockHolmes, black and white, the old
black and white Sherlock Holmes,hop into bed, iPad, start
watching one of those, you know,an hour and a half later, boom,
you know, not at all. I was like, OK, I've had down
kids asleep. But, you know, there were times
when it was 234 in the morning and my brain was still going.
You start thinking, oh, what if we'd done that?
(39:43):
Or what if we'd done this and you can't help?
Would it have given me extra time?
The answer, of course, is no. But but as humans, we want to
get that time back. And you know, you, you give up
everything for another minute and, and that still happens.
So beautiful. But I would say that the hardest
part is if you're by yourself and if you don't have a close
(40:05):
circle of friends. So where I was getting to with
that was I said no to a bereavement councillor at the
time. Fast forward 12 months, I got
through Christmas and everythingOK.
It wasn't a big deal. I went and spent some time with
friends. That wasn't the hard part for
me. It was Jill's birthday of the
8th of January, wedding anniversary of the 8th of
January. Her birthday was the 21st of
(40:26):
January. She died on the 30th of
February. So they're all within sort of a
two week period of each other. And it hit me hard and I was
expecting and it was, it was horrible.
It was really horrible. So and I wasn't probably a
pleasant person to be around either, which is not normally me
so, but God love my staff. You know, they were blunt and
(40:47):
honest with me. You, you know, you need to now,
now's the time you need to starttalking to somebody.
So I did so made the appointmentfor the bereavement councillor
that would probably March ish. And it was the right time,
absolutely the right time for me.
And it's been a really good thing to do and the team are
(41:09):
just brilliant. And I've got this, we've gone,
we've just literally having a break now.
And we were talking about it. It's been like you talked about
the stages of grief, you know, the five stages of grief.
And you know, I can say to everybody listening to this,
they are certainly not linear. And I remember she showed me a
picture of the five stages of grief and what people are told
(41:29):
it is. And then what it really is, is
scribble it going everywhere. And yes, yes.
And I still laugh about that because it is so true.
It's like a Jackson Pollock painting all over the shop.
And the minute you try and rationalise it, you're going to
give yourself a headache becauseyou can't do it.
So I'd say to everybody, you know, I'd say to everybody, and,
and I'm sure Mitch, you've said this on, you know, don't try and
(41:52):
don't try and forcing management, don't try and expect
that this is what you have to do.
You can go one step forward, five step back.
You have 5 steps forward, no steps back.
And that's OK. It, it was, it was having the
validation that it's OK. And and that's important part of
it too, you know, yeah. And and again, the hardest part
(42:15):
I would have thought would be for people who've who haven't
got something they can fall backon.
And that's when I should say youshould say that you you should
absolutely get some bereavement support.
You know, look at what coping mechanisms work for you.
And every single, as you know, Mitch, every single person is
different. No one, there's no one size fits
all for it. And that's why wearing, we're
(42:35):
talking about wearing your hearton your sleeve.
I've found that by and I do that.
I said I'm open book. That has made it so much less
painful for me and easier because you you don't hide it,
don't try and be something you're not because it just
compounds the pain and compoundsthe issues and you go down to
(42:58):
dark places which you don't needto be in.
Yeah. Does that help?
Burying it down, yeah, it makes a lot of sense, mate.
It's it's very, very real, very true, very scientifically
accurate as well, that burying grief is like an incubator and a
furnace for it to grow. And that connection with others
(43:19):
is the way out. And the willingness to feel it
to heal it is the way through. And I know that with you wearing
your heart on your sleeve today,you've definitely helped many
people feel less alone in their own grieving process.
Less scary to walk this journey knowing that there are people
like you walking it too, Validating that it's not going
(43:40):
to be linear, and assuring them that with time this will become
liveable and manageable and tolerable.
Yeah, look, look, absolutely. And you know, what you're doing
is a really good example of, of helping people to cope and, and
again, not being afraid, not embarrassed by it.
It happens to everybody. You know, the one sure thing
(44:02):
about life is it ends. So you know, and you know, it
said we were lucky. People think, oh, this is such a
tragedy. We were lucky.
We know we knew what was happening.
So we had the ability to do things.
Some people don't get that, thatprivilege, you know, life's
taken away from them in an instant.
And that would have it's a different griefs grief and
(44:23):
everybody deals with it differently.
But all I can say to everybody is you're never alone.
And when you feel alone, there'll always be somebody that
you can talk to. And, and you need to reach out
and not be embarrassed by it. And, and look, sometimes you
don't realise that you're going through that discomfort, but
other people around you hopefully will be honest enough
(44:44):
and and close enough to say thisis not right and you need to
talk. And yeah, but I look, I love
what you guys are doing. And obviously Mel popped in
today and, you know, it was goodto talk to her about stuff.
And, you know, and, and I would say to people, you know, never
be afraid to get some professional support as well.
And I, I found it really beneficial.
(45:05):
We joke about there's a, there'sa, the window of grief, which I
knew nothing about. And I, I was window fully open.
I was, I was not a good place. And when you read open versus
closed and there's that line where you correctly try and find
a balance and you tend to flip between the two extremes.
And now I'm finding I'm getting a better balance.
(45:25):
And that's a good thing too. But there'll be times when it's
open and I'm just that's when you crack out the black and
white movie and take yourself off and, and don't be afraid to
say you need some new time. Look, there are Times Now where
I wake up, I just say, I just want to stay home today.
I'm going to stay home with my dog, watch a movie, curl up,
(45:46):
curl up in the under the donor on the couch.
And that's not a bad thing sometimes either.
You need it and it's good for you.
Well, Crouchy, it's been an honour and a privilege to to
listen to your story today and to remember Jill in such a
honourable and respectful and loving way.
It's it's nice to see men unashamedly love their wives
(46:08):
wholeheartedly. I hope that a love like that
finds me one day and and that I speak about my wife in the same
fondness that you do. Mate, what a what a gift.
I'm sorry she was taken too early.
And I'm also so happy that you were afforded a relationship
like that. That, yeah, is is truly a
(46:29):
miracle sent from God. It's been so nice.
So Crouchy, thank you for again for your time.
It's a pleasure to meet you anytime and again, it was such a
great experience meeting with you and the team in Parliament.
And I'm really, and you know, that's another step for you guys
to, you know, and you mentioned being in that place, you know,
talking to MPs It's, it's it, itmakes a difference.
(46:51):
You really do. And look, I got to say, you've
got a great organisation and what you're doing is fantastic.
And we need to do more of it. That's we just need to do more
of it. You know, we need, we people
need to wear their heart of their sleeve a lot more often
and not be afraid of it. And so thank you for for shining
that light on it and saying to people, it's OK, which it really
is. So keep up the great work mate.
You're doing an awesome job. Thank you and listen.
(47:11):
Listen everyone. Time to wear your heart on your
sleeve. And if if it's not speaking
publicly about your stories, we advocate for small private steps
to confide in just one person toget 3 words out of your mouth.
I'm not OK. And we've got a whole range of
resources on our website, campaigns, and everything we can
do to help you take those steps and start the journey toward
(47:34):
healing by feeling and communicating and connecting.
So you've heard it here first, get your heart on your sleeve A.
100% it's OK to not be OK as youguys said.
My emotions have a natural tendency to dissipate unless
they get reinforced. And so if there's more thoughts,
more stories, more intentions tocome along, so the act of how am
(47:55):
I leaving it alone is an act of not act, adding more stories,
adding fuel to it. So it might not go away in 2
minutes, but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix, it would
become the person who makes space for the heart, the mind,
to relax and settle away itself.
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