October 27, 2023 • 55 mins
Matt Purcell was born in a small town in South Korea to a young mother who was unable to raise him. This sparked an incredible work drive in Matt who has since founded KYU media, an award-winning creative agency, and Social Kung Fu, Australia’s number 1 verbal self-defence and confidence training for students. Matt shares wisdom from his own personal journey, how to overcome hardship, find purpose and have an impact.
This episode covers:
- where to begin with combatting insecurities
- how he built his own self-worth from the ground up
- the #1 best quality in a personal brand
- the framework that will set your brand up for success
- his unique gifts: verbal sparring and pattern recognition
- the proven formula for combatting bullying
Connect with Matt:
www.instagram.com/mattpurcellofficial
Work with Matt:
www.socialkungfu.com.au
www.kyumedia.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today's guest is Matt Purcell, who was born in a small town in
South Korea to a young mother who was unable to raise him.
This sparked an incredible work ethic in Matt, who gained
qualifications in mental health and founded the Green Room MP,
helping hundreds of people with music and life coaching.
Matt later founded Caillou Media, an award winning creative
(00:25):
agency, as a leader in personal branding.
He's worked with ABC, Westfield,Sony, MX and much more.
He's also the founder of Social Kung Fu, Australia's number one
verbal self defence and confidence training for
students. His mission is to impact
1,000,000 young people with his training against bullying and
(00:47):
dehumanisation and raise a generation to become more self
aware. His passion and work ethic are
embedded within everything he does and I'm very grateful and
excited to have him on the show today.
I was really impressed with Matt's ability to talk about
(01:07):
characters and brands and then link that back to the character
and brand story that we're telling inside our own minds.
Because often we are just the sum of the stories that we play
out in our mind. And so there's some really
useful tips and tools on how to restructure your own narrative
(01:29):
and find a lot of inspiration and resilience from how Matt has
been able to build an incrediblyinspiring life despite his
circumstances. So without further ado, here is
Matt. So Matt, we're in very similar
spaces and you have a passion for helping people, particularly
young people. And I think most people who end
(01:51):
up in our space do so because oflived experience.
Can you tell me about a time, your earliest memory, where you
thought to yourself I am not enough?
I remember being in you. I remember when I was seven
years old, I went to a new school.
And my parents just separated only two weeks before.
(02:15):
And I was one of only three Asian kids in the school, and I
got on the new school bus. And seven years, seven students
would just use me as a human boxing bag in my backpack would
become a soccer ball. And I couldn't shake him.
I couldn't distract him, couldn't defend myself.
(02:36):
And then a few weeks later they took it too far, threw me in a
whiz bin and they did that for for days and I kept it secret
from my mum. He was working a couple of jobs.
And wash myself clothes, wash myclothes to try and keep it
secret. And then they eventually found
she eventually found out. And that was the very first time
(02:57):
I felt literally like a piece ofrubbish.
Literally. Like.
Yeah, I couldn't defend myself. My voice wasn't heard and after
the event the bullying stopped because the principal and all
that got involved. But the words started and they
were like verbal punches and I remember just getting.
(03:19):
Abused verbally for months and my friends would be there but
they wouldn't say anything. No one would defend me and all I
knew was to do was to hit back with Will Smith.
People back and hit him when they would say things to me.
So that was the only thing I knew within me to do.
So that was the first memory. Of.
(03:40):
Feeling worthless? Yeah, I'll bet.
Man, that is absolutely deplorable that that happens.
And do you think that that stillhappens?
I know that might seem like a very naive question, but I like
to believe that things are getting better based on your
work with students. Is that level of bullying still
occurring? Yeah, it is.
(04:03):
I travelled to regional areas aswell as cities and.
It's. A lot of physical bullying.
Still happens like I was I was in Swan Hill, which is like on
the border of NSW and Victoria. It has the highest rate of
teenage teenage pregnancy in thestate.
(04:24):
It's only a small town. And an incident happened
recently in the school where. Massive fight broke out and yeah
schools are really struggling tobe able to know what to do and
how to to manage it. But a lot of it came from cyber.
A lot of it was building up overmonths and a lot of tension with
(04:46):
words and type typing and talking were the big trick is
that led to a big fight. So it does happen.
I think a lot of it these days is verbal and and and texting
and cyber which is, I mean if you think about.
The cyber it's that's only one. Fairly new in a history of being
(05:08):
followed home and not being ableto escape the day check out from
the bully. So it's it still happens, but
takes many forms. Do you think that the experience
still lives with you today and shapes the way that you view the
world? Because you've obviously done a
lot of work on yourself to be a very confident man who stands on
(05:29):
stage and is sure of himself. Is that voice of the bully still
tucked away somewhere in your brain?
No, I I don't think the voices are there.
They're not. At least they're not very loud.
If there were there, there have been completely.
(05:51):
I guess drowned out with. Residents in my mind that I've
approved of to be in it. So I I I have had to learned
that my life is like a living house and.
Inside my house, valuable thingslike my dreams and my health and
my relationships. And a lot of people treat their
(06:12):
lives. They they A lot of people treat
their own physical house better than their own mental health.
Where a stranger could knock on their door and fail.
Hey, can you let me in? And most people don't know who
are you? And they have more of a boundary
in value on their physical housethan strategies that come up to
(06:32):
you and say you're a piece of crap and some and that's.
Something I've really like you said I've really had to work on,
but I think it's. Definitely a villain in my story
that I that draws me forward toward a goal rather than pulls
me down. I I that if that voice exists,
it's the justice in me that goes.
(06:54):
I don't want anyone to feel. Helpless and worthless slut that
without you can do something about it.
Now you can say something back. Why do some people recover from
experiences like that and turn out to be people like you versus
people who don't and carry a traumatised, distorted view of
(07:16):
the world for a very long time because of what was done to them
in childhood? Yeah, I mean, as an adoptee
even, like I've met a lot of adoptees.
And it's been 5050 where? They've seen their life as half
empty or or half full, you know,and.
(07:36):
Half empty or yeah, the other way, yeah.
And. I think it comes down to.
I mean, it's cliche, but it's cliched.
It is. It's like the reinforcement of
people in your life. And the external like for me,
what's really helped me is to beable to distinguish the
(07:59):
difference between. Relying on external validation
or internal referencing meaning.If I have.
A. If I depend on solely on the
feedback and solely on the external praises or criticisms
from people externally, then I'mforever insecure and forever
(08:21):
needing that to feed me and to keep me secure.
And that's the only source of food I have for my my identity.
And I think it's. When you can find either a
person in your life or an event in your life which makes you
look. To go OK, I can't rely on just
(08:41):
external people to tell me who Iam.
I need to internally do work internally reference like what?
What? What triggers me?
What are my dreams? Is it really true what they're
saying? This stress might or someone
else is there. That's all internal referencing.
Versus How do they think of me? What's gonna make them happy?
(09:04):
What can I do to prove myself? That's all external.
So I think for my life it came down to some people, which I'm
so glad for my mother that she. Put me into a local youth group
when I was a teenager who were. Relevant and cool and hip, but
also talked about meaning and and deeper issues and lived out
(09:24):
a different culture. That really infinite means
influence of me to think about those things.
That's a very good way of explaining the power of
connection and how when we are nurtured in the right way, it
can overcome even the hardest oftraumas.
And there's a bunch of research on how attachment style can
(09:46):
guard against symptomology laterdown the track.
As an adult, if you have the right people around you to help
process and work through it, when people choose the glass
glass half empty option, do you think that's because they don't
have that type of support aroundthem?
Or do you think some people are born more?
(10:09):
Maybe. I don't know if optimistic and
resilient is the word, but what?Why?
Why do you think that occurs? Yeah, I think I've met people
that have. We've all met people say, for
example, externally, culturally,they're beautiful, they're
physically beautiful, they're talented, they've got something
good going for them. Yet they feel like they're never
(10:33):
enough. You know, I had a a very pretty
friend in high school and she forever never believed anything.
We told her that you know, you're beautiful inside out.
No. No, I'm not.
And a family we're loving. And.
And she scored well and I said all the evidence was there
externally, but she was the onlyone who never believed it and.
(10:57):
From the outside looking in, youcould say that oht.
Some people would naively say, oh, she's just seeking attention
or she was just. But sometimes there are hardware
and software incompatible like issues like.
What I mean by that is. Externally, an external thing is
you might see someone with a broken ligament, and that's
(11:20):
totally understandable that you shouldn't expect them to lift
anything with that arm or an external visible disability.
But when it comes to internal invisible issues such as
insecurity or maybe the tendencyto be more on the.
More depressed or it would be more.
You'd have the research on that,Mitch.
(11:43):
I think that's less we don't have the tools to be able to
know how to. Generally speaking, how do we
approach someone with that? With, with empathy and with.
With. That's useful.
Instead of saying you're wrong, you're wrong, you're beautiful,
you're wrong, you're wrong that you've got see all the external
things. Why are you?
Why do you disagree with me instead of having this
argumentative chat? So I throw that back to you.
(12:04):
Mike, what do you think about? From your research that you
found the people tend to lean toward that side of being more
the glass half empty genetically.
Or is it when when an externallythings are OK, like in this case
with my friend, yeah, I think itit can be a mixture of both
(12:28):
nature and nurture. But I what I also believe is
true is that the way you view yourself is more of a choice
than you believe. And the the story that gets
created is more important than the situations that you endure.
And the story is, is malleable. It's plastic, it's adaptable and
(12:49):
it's trustable. And so I know that you're an
expert in personal branding and helping people establish
themself as a being known for something and standing for
something. How do you think personal brand
from a mental health perspectiveplays out when you have a
negative self story and you so badly want the world to view you
(13:14):
as something else? How do you cross the bridge?
Yeah. There's an old.
There's an Old Testament. In the in the in the Bible, this
is all 10 commandments, and one of them is he showing up.
You shall not bear false witnessto your neighbour.
And one day when I. But it just came across that
(13:37):
years ago. It's always stuck to me with
personal brand in a weird way because like bear witness to
your to your neighbour, bearing witness is a a legal term.
And basically when you're at court and you put on the stand,
you just have to give an accountof what you've seen, what you've
heard and what you've felt like.You've got to give account to
(13:58):
what's been in your life. Is facts and.
What most people, what how, how,how I help people start the
journey with if they've got a negative view of themselves.
It's like you need to look at bearing witness to what you've
done. But so many people are more
competent than what they think, and the evidence is there, and I
(14:19):
need to point them in that rightdirection to see, like, listen,
look at, let's look at your timeline.
You have grown a great business.You have a great family.
You you're profiting here, You've won an award here or you.
You, even through your family history, you've come from this
and not repeated the cycle. And that's part of your journey,
(14:39):
and we're crafting some of this,that there's some of the
ingredients we have then to be able to craft.
A I guess it's self creation. This concept of self creation,
we can craft a story that you can, a new story you can believe
in based on not imaginary thingsbut on facts.
And that's where I begin. When people who are insecure
about themselves, Yeah, it's a cognitive behavioural therapy
(15:03):
technique, right? Is to challenge false stories
with actual evidence and facts. And it's hard to see evidence
when your story feels so familiar that it feels like a
fact. And it is through deep
investigation and challenging that we are able to craft a new
view of ourselves and the world as a personal brand expert,
(15:25):
What's the one word that you want to be?
You want people to describe you as.
One word. Oh.
I guess that one word would be. Honest.
(15:46):
Yeah, honest, I think I I think personal branding is a lot to do
with identity. That's why I love the work.
That's what makes so much sense with my journey from being an
adoptee to have gone to what I've gone through and wanting to
help people with their identities through youth to
professionals. When you know who you are.
(16:09):
You become less shakable and youhave then a base to build on.
You're not changing costumes every second because you're
talking like it's it's true security.
When you know who you are, if you don't know who you are, then
you're at the. You risk.
I don't know. Just building 7 things and
(16:30):
you're not sure what you're doing If you're not know who
you're doing it for. So yeah, I think it's personal.
Branding is a synonym for identity building for me, Yeah.
And what is some of the most stable building blocks you have
found for someone to achieve a positive personal brand on
(16:52):
social media? And I'm curious to see what the
answers are, because it might correlate to how people use
those building blocks to build their own mental health.
Yeah, I'll give you a little bitof a framework with story
building for personal operating.And I'm gonna borrow a page from
our good friend Peter Parker. I love Peter Parker as a kid.
I love Spiderman and some of thebest.
(17:15):
Personal brands are actually notreal people.
They're. The Like Forever Then the most
promotable brands are like the Tony Starks who who Audi paid
thirty $300 million to put him in.
He's not a real person. Or James Bond, who Amiga pays
millions of dollars to and he's a real person.
And the thing that really sticksout about Spiderman story for me
(17:38):
and you can use this framework for your own brands, is Peter
has a context. Where's he from?
It's from Manhattan. These are these aren't May Uncle
Ben and his parents passed away.What's his situation at school?
Well he's a nerdy kid. He's not cool.
He's awkward around girls. He's he's he's a he's a he's a
(18:00):
nerd essentially in in in the comics.
And then you go into there was adefining moment.
Something happened in his life where he was bitten by a spider
and that gave him an ability. He discovered an ability.
Climbing walls, super strength, all these things, but he's not
yet a hero or a villain yet. He discovered his purpose
(18:21):
through tragedy, through pain. Which is when he let a criminal
go, and that criminal actually ended up killing his uncle.
And his uncle on. His dying words were, you know,
remember what I said? You know, with great power comes
great responsibility. And that was when Spiderman was
birth. So it was from context to
(18:42):
discovery of abilities to then discovering purpose.
And that what that's at one end of the spectrum and the other
end of the spectrum, there's thedefining attributes of spine
Meme, the the, the alter ego of spider images Peter.
And then the ego. The other side of it is Spider
Man, which is what's he's defining physical attributes.
Well, he's he sees the colours red and blue.
(19:03):
Is the spider symbol. That's your logo.
You see certain powers that he has.
That's what Spiderman is known for.
And if you have a spectrum like this, when you get closer in the
middle from your your story and your your hero with the mask,
you become more authentic. And I think that's where the
sweet spot is. So we're trying to close the gap
(19:27):
between what people think we areand who we are, and it's
authenticity that really allows people to shine bright.
That's right. Yeah.
And I'll say this too, like somewould say, hey Matt.
Is that a little bit like, are you saying to curate some
things? And I'm suggesting yeah, you do.
And curations become a dirty C word to some content creators or
(19:50):
people who are on the full, authentic route.
And I think. When you go for a job interview.
You don't say I like sushi in your resume.
You know, say I like bonds as myunderwear.
You curate you. You wanna present in context the
best message forward for yourself to be able to get the
(20:11):
role that suits their organisation.
Resumes are marketing document. People might think I'm not a
marketer, but resumes are for the person who are looking to
hire in order about you is for them.
So it's the same type of deal. How can I craft my story with
the important part? That's what movies are so good
at. You never see Jason Bourne in a
(20:33):
movie with a scene where he goesup to Fitness 1st and gets his
membership sign up and goes through the list with the
receptionist. That's not in any movie because
what's the point? So they Excuse me.
So the the story has to everything has to support the
story. Every, every note, every lyric.
(20:54):
No matter how skilled you are, no matter how technically good
you are in a song, everything has to be rendered under it.
Does IT support the song or doesit distract from the song and
it's the same as the message? Hmm.
Yeah. Perception really is just the
sum of a bunch of small, discrete parts that end up
(21:15):
adding up to become who we are. And then that image of the way
that we are viewed by the world gets perpetually reinforced back
to us and creates a character. I think some people feel trapped
by the character that the world views them as and then they've
(21:36):
reinforced themselves to be. Have you had instances where
you've worked with people who don't want to be perceived the
certain way and actually want tochange that?
And if so, do they have to change internally before the
external world sees it as that? That's a good question.
I think I'll give you an example.
(21:57):
We call it a rebrand in personalreading later.
So you're known maybe as one thing, but you wanna start
repositioning yourself into a new channel or a new to be known
as a new thing. It's two different topics to say
that if you're known for a bad thing, you gotta pass and you
were gonna make it good better because you got all these sins
(22:19):
there, especially if they're made public.
That's like a big PR piece. That's a that's a lot of time.
It's not impossible, but you cando it.
But say Layne Beachley is a goodfriend of mine, one of my I love
Layne Beachley more than most people.
Like she's a sister. She's adopted as well, like me.
She went through a whole period where she was in an industry
(22:39):
where the men were winning million dollar prize money and
the women were getting 90 grand as world champions and she was
one of the most strongest voicesto make help surfing become the
first sport in history to be equally paid with women and men.
So it's surfing was the very first sport in history where the
prize made was the same and Lanewas really behind that and on
(23:02):
the board meetings in the in corporate spaces and when she
finishes A7 time world champion she scratching head going I mean
I'm an ex athlete now what do I do.
I've got so much to give. I've got I'm, I'm known as
forever frozen in time as a surfer.
But I want to help people because of all the resilience he
(23:22):
had built, being in that industry, building a great brand
which she lived off her. She's a great brand in her own
right with endorsements. She's left millions of dollars
on the table because it didn't look pseudo brand should tell
you Bundaberg Rum offering $1,000,000 for Layne Beachley to
be ambassador doesn't suit the bread.
(23:45):
She's really $1,000,000 on the table.
That's that's an example of how power, if you know who you are,
you're going to have to say no to big paying things like that
sometimes because that's like selling.
That is literally that definition.
I know who I am, but I'm willingto trade out who I am for a
dollar a buck. That's just like divorcing this
(24:07):
relationship you have with yourself, this certain you have
yourself. So back to my point like Lane
was honestly 7 to world times world champion.
But she wanted to be able to position herself more in the
Wellness space and being a champion for Wellness.
So the exercise we had to do, then we she went on a a lot of
(24:28):
inner work. She went on a journey where she
actually got trained in mental health to a mental health aid
first aid. She's gone to multiple, yeah.
She's gone through a lot of training over the last 10 years
to be able to versus herself with the right way to be able to
explain to her audience what shewent through and some tools.
(24:51):
So there wasn't a work done before she went public with it.
And I think that's really important because if you don't
do the inner work first before you rebrand, then you're like a
guitarist who's just saying I'm a professional guitars, but I'm
learning every week to stay afloat you've got to do the work
beforehand. So that's why I respect brands
who who stand the test of time because behind every good brand,
(25:13):
behind any good personal brand has been about 6 to 12 months
sometimes of of reeducating themselves and versing
themselves on their new area. Hmm.
So the work does happen internally in order to be
externally achieved. What what's curious about Lane
(25:36):
Story and who by all accounts seems to be an amazing person
and has achieved so much, is that.
She by rejecting deals like withBundaberg to draw a parallel to
mental health. I think it's like rejecting
people and things that don't align to the values of who you
(25:58):
are and who you want to be. Because there are multiple
moments on our journey when we're experiencing anxiety and
depression that there are quick wins that come up that look to
be appealing. For example, you might turn to
alcohol or drugs, or you might go towards people who give you
false validation That's not actually true.
And the result of that is that the perception of ourself being
(26:20):
not aligned with who we want to be gets reinforced and we're
further away from our from our true essence.
And I think what Lane did from amore of an external marketing
perspective has a lot of similarities to what we need to
do internally, which is know whowe are, so much so or know who
we want to be so much so. That we get very good at saying
(26:43):
no to things that don't fall in line with that as much as we get
good at saying yes. Because at the end of the day,
the character that we're all striving to be is playing out
now. The quality of our mental health
is determining our mental healthat all points in time.
Like if you have a negative viewof self and you do things every
day in your life, that reinforces that you're not who
(27:05):
you want to be. That is a path to rock bottom.
But if you're constantly having the disciplined.
Pursuit of reinforcing the aspirational character that you
want to to become. You will become that character.
The difference is those who are disciplined enough to stay on
the path. That's so true.
And you see that in relationships a lot socially,
(27:28):
where one of the saddest storiesI've heard for in my life was my
mum. And it was from my mom.
And she had just a a close friend split up with her partner
and she was with the new guy very quickly.
And my mom wasn't being judgmental anything.
(27:48):
But she asked her like, wow, what?
What happened? So, like you've moved on pretty
quick. Like, you must be the one, Like,
what is it? She's like, it's the best I
could do. And it's like, wow, like, that's
just an example to your point ofI think when you struggle, that
you have your negative review ofyourself.
(28:11):
You'll take what you feel like, what you think he here's the
thing, he's in one phrase. It's how do you think of
yourself, determines what you think you deserve.
So if I don't think I'm much, then from my mom's friend's
point of view this is the best Icould do.
That's it so far. Hmm, yeah, I do believe that.
(28:34):
We attract into our life what wethink we yeah deserve and are
worthy of. And the hardest part is, is
shifting our internal sense of worth.
A huge thing Other than surrounding yourself with the
right people, what is? Can you give me two, maybe 3
(28:55):
examples of how you've built self worth over the course of
your life after being told to use your words you were a piece
of garbage. When I was 12, my dad gave me a
guitar and I had no idea if I'd take to it or not, being that
young. But I discovered very quickly
(29:17):
that this instrument or music and me was like the perfect
match made in heaven, creativity, to express myself
through something other than anger or through physical
lashing out or verbally losing control.
So I had an outlet that really channelled my energy to towards
(29:40):
something beautiful. And I remember when I was about
1415, I started getting really, really good at it because I was
intrinsically motivated to to learn.
And it was quickly recognised bya lot of people in my school and
in the city I was playing gigs by.
I was 1516, I played session music, played The Tool with
Jimmy Barnes. When I was in my early 20s I
(30:02):
was, you know, session music andI remember is 14 years old and I
was figuring out by year one of the hardest songs I had.
I've had in my mind if I could learn this song.
I'm doing alright. And I was, as I was figuring out
in real time, no guitar teacher just ringing about you.
I just caught myself. Look at myself going.
You know what, Matt? You're not a piece of shit.
(30:25):
And that was one of the best therapies I've ever had in my
life was being able to get on a guitar or get something
creative. Have an aim in being able to
have this gift, to be able to figure out patterns.
Pattern recognition is one of the strongest things in my my
arsenal. I can look at a movie, you can
hear a song, I know what key it's in.
(30:45):
I don't know how to replicate that.
I know the gradients to be and then can't make it contextual to
a person, and that was one of the best building blocks for my
confidence because one that was an ability like something I
could actually. Pave, you know, be productive
with it can earn a living. It can help people.
The second thing was. Having sparring.
(31:08):
Having a verbal sparring partner.
Very verbal sparring partners are just like having a boxing
partner. You're not trying to kill each
other in the ring, but you do have simulations of real debate.
Testing out ideas, testing out moves.
Not having a safe space to be able to say I had this thought
(31:32):
about some controversial idea without the fear of being judged
for it or being posted on about and help someone going.
What's the best argument againstthat, Matt?
Like I didn't think about that. And then getting better and
better and better. So that was intellectually
boring. Brawling it away through
conversation, Sparring. And.
(31:56):
The third thing, I guess he feels the third thing for me was
having a philosophy. Philosophy.
He's the great middle ground. Or he can be the primary main
show for a lot of people. That helps you make sense,
think, makes sense of things in life.
There's science, which is amazing.
Science is incredible with the study of observations of
(32:18):
behaviour in the world. His philosophy is.
Philo means in the Greek means lover of wisdom, fellow lover,
Sofie of wisdom. And when I discovered philosophy
like Socrates and Plato and and and Seneca and all these things
(32:40):
as an early 20 year old, it changed my life because I gave
my my brain an OS system to be able to put my problems through.
And it helped me, gave me tools to that, combined with some
science or some mental health training.
Was that maybe just zoom out pinched out rather than double
tap? I can double tap on things and
(33:02):
zoom out because I have these tools, so I have.
Yeah, talent or something. I can say this is this is
tangible, built, sparring part of the intellectually brawl and
I know where system to make sense of problems.
Hmm, I think. What the first point you made
(33:23):
speaks to is. Having something that you can be
proud of as well, and I think having something you can be
proud of builds. A reason to want to get up in
the morning. You know the guitar.
It's not. It wasn't the guitar that helped
you build yourself worth it was what it represented, right?
It was that I I have something that brings me joy.
(33:47):
Allows me to feel socially included.
I get a positive behavioural loop because it reinforced by
people saying that they like it.I get to help people.
But but above all that, I get tobe proud that I'm offering
something to someone and. That is, I believe, why many of
(34:11):
us can build self worth when we invest in a skill or a thing
that has bigger meaning and purpose than just ourselves.
And not skill for the sake of competition or for the sake of
needing to be anywhere. But just feeling skillful in and
of itself I think is very therapeutic.
(34:33):
And I'm glad that that was your experience.
Yeah, Yeah, it's I I mentioned before like internal referencing
or internal validation. And that was one of the very
first moments where I had decided that I.
Like I like me doing this. This feel makes me feel good and
I can disguise the limit with this.
(34:53):
This is like for me, only it wasan audience of it.
It was only honestly for an audience of 1 before it became
for an audience of anyone else. Hmm.
And when you. Say verbal sparring partner, is
that just people in your life who you can be real with and
feel heard from? No, I think it's more
intentional than that. It's it's actually, well, it's
(35:17):
it's not an it. It is like an agreement.
Not everyone of my friends or able to.
They don't have the persona or or the.
The interest sometimes to be able to do this exercise, but
I've got several. I've got probably several five
to seven people on my phone thatwe regularly in the car.
(35:38):
They'll call me. I'll call them or in in night
time would be like let's test. What do you be thinking about
lately? And we just hear it out and we
we and they expect a a worthy opponent.
It's not competition. It's actually out of curiosity
is am I on the right track? I thought this out much in
(35:58):
Japanese martial arts. There was a very valued
principle on seeking to find a worthy opponent.
So if you look at anime films like Naruto, One Punch Man, any
fighting films, they're always even Pokémon, they're always
saying. So I need to fight someone who's
(36:20):
better, and that's Japanese culture, because in order to be
a master at something, you need to find someone who's worthy,
who's equal or better than you to be able to one, it shows you
what your boundaries are, what your limits are, and to it,
that's the only way they believeto be able to get better.
So I think in our Western culture, it's not a very
(36:43):
comfortable feeling to naturallyseek out someone to challenge
you or to be challenged by. But when you when you find out
that's that's the principal lifefind.
It's like I wanna find a worthy opponent and I found people who
want that too. And it's about the idea rather
than the individual was it? We leave.
We leave the the conversation. Not with wiping blood from a
(37:05):
mouth, but better and sharper. Higher sharpens and so how did?
How did you, How do you? Feel as though that helped you
build yourself worth that specific technique.
I think it was similar to the guitar in creativity.
It's sometimes realising that arriving at my own ideas.
(37:31):
OK, so for example Mitch in school I got an Asterix for my
HSC. So I I got lower than 38 are for
my HC. Look at me now bitches.
Anyway. Talk to me.
So for a long time, I thought I wasn't smart and intellectually
(37:53):
having a sparring partner was. Really helpful for me to be able
to internally accept myself thatI am smart because I naturally
am a deep thinker. From the things I went through
as a kid, I was always gravitating toward things that
will watch more, much more abovewhat people talk about my age.
(38:14):
And when I found someone who'd be, who's willing to challenge
and then listening to grow and to be able to heat, that's
actually right. You're on the right path.
I'm talking to a psychologist and like, yeah, that's like
you're saying with some things. I'm saying yes, it's called me
bias or that, or that's called me behaviour therapy.
It's like I'm arriving at these these thoughts that I've been
(38:35):
thinking, I've validated throughresearch or through other people
or challenged, and I'll have to rethink it.
And I come back with a more, better, better worldview.
And that's helped me got smarter, become smarter in my
own perspective, not just from other peoples saying that I am.
And yeah, same with discovery. I feel like it's the music.
It's like I'm not a dumb ass. My thoughts.
(39:00):
One of my observations. And that that builds trust in
yourself. So that's when you can make more
off the cuff decisions like no, that's a good, that's a good
move, let's do that. Or you can have weight behind
your words because they're well thought out and you've done a
lot of work in private to be able to arrive at that.
Hmm, yeah, totally agree. Self trust is a massive
(39:22):
component of being able to move through life a bit more freely,
as opposed to just feeling like you're swimming through water to
take another step forward. Whenever I have had some of my
hardest moments in life, it's when I've trusted myself the
least. It's a shit situation to be in
(39:43):
and I think when we can in moments like that when we can go
back to anything. That will help us remember that
we have competence in something that starts to rebuild the self
trust. Because when it's gone man, it's
the it's the worst place to be. You don't wanna feel like you
don't have your own back or you can't trust your own judgement.
(40:04):
Yeah, that's really true. Mitch, I'm curious to ask you a
question with that like. What I talked a lot about, you
know, like you you, you you articulated so well without
having something that you're proud of is good for confidence
building. I talked about verbal sparring.
So there's more of an intellectual confidence when you
(40:26):
felt low on your life. What areas were knocked?
At like did you feel like you were dumb?
Did you feel like you were? What?
What what? What were these?
Were these confidence pillars knocked out, or were they all
what? Were they based on your
confidence? My issues have never really been
(40:47):
real world problems in the sensethat it wasn't how I looked, it
wasn't if I was smart, wasn't ifI was achieving well, whether I
could pick up a girl. The things that have almost
buried me have been invisible belief systems that have eroded
my soul to, in particular, one being I for most of my life,
(41:11):
believed to the core that I was crazy.
And therefore completely unworthy of belonging.
And I don't mean like crazies inother guys, a bit kooky.
I was like there is something wrong with my hardwiring.
Hmm, the second belief. System I had for a very long
(41:32):
time. Most of my life was I am a bad
person, and that manifested in prepubescent years in acute OCD
because I thought I was possessed.
I was that that bad. Like I would have a thought that
most normal, healthy kids would have and in my mind from
(41:54):
somewhere. Like, let's say for example,
when I started having thoughts about girls coming into puberty,
I was like, oh, you're the worst.
You're possessed by the devil, like something is wrong.
And and and that produced this intensive intrusive thought
loop, which. Thank OCD.
For which just varies your self image.
(42:17):
So the the thoughts of I'm a badperson, I'm a crazy person,
pretty much drove me to the point of wanting to take my own
life on multiple occasions and they now no longer have power
over me because I don't believe either of them.
But the thing I'm proudest of most, even though I've started
the mental health charity and speak on stage and worked at
(42:40):
Microsoft and all that other stuff, that that's not what I'm
most proud of. What I'm most proud of is I
remember vividly staring down. A mental, metaphorical hull of
insanity. I remember exactly where I was.
I was standing on a Wharf in on the side of a lake in Seattle.
(43:01):
I had just left the doctor's appointment and I could feel,
literally feel psychosis one single step away from me.
And I remember being like, if I go there, I'm never coming out,
ever. And it was like alluring me.
I was like, I'm going to have a psychotic break right now.
I can fucking feel it. I was just holding on to
(43:22):
reality. And I fought so, so hard to claw
my way back into a rational mindset and to now be living in
working mental health for my whole life.
But I remember the exact moment in time where I was like I could
(43:43):
go off that deep end right now into this black hole and never
return. And I'm most proud of fighting
myself out of that than any realworld accomplishment.
Hmm, that's really interesting, man.
I find that a lot of people struggle in their life because
(44:04):
we have with when you have internal struggles.
Some people really turn to try and find they rely on external
solutions for external problems,internal problems.
So I what I mean by that is if I've got trauma, buying a new
suit. And just be silly for me to say,
(44:24):
and it's not true. Like I'll buy this new suit, it
takes my trauma away. An external material doesn't fix
it and it's an internal strugglelike that.
And it's interesting, like you can throw yourself into
accomplishments. You could throw yourself in as
and and in part they'll that they can top up some type of
level of satisfaction, but fizzles quick.
(44:47):
Um, so how did you? I mean, that's that's a whole
interview and it's all for you. But like, just tell me.
One, because I'm really interested about how you got
through breaking that belief, what you have to do to break the
belief and not. Listen to it.
Um. Let it be.
(45:12):
True for a moment. As opposed to run.
Away from it and it was the experiencing of.
OK, maybe that is. That actually, it completely
lost its grip and ran away. And in all the ironies,
considering we've spoken about bullying, I feel like a lot of
those internal belief systems are bullies.
(45:34):
And the best way to confront a bully, in my experience, is to
not give them power, not give them fear, not run away, not buy
into that bullshit and. And I think for the first time
ever, I was like. What do you want from me?
Alright, I am all those things. Fine.
You fucking got me. I'm not scared of you, you know,
(45:55):
if that is who I am, if I am crazy, if I'm a bad person and
so be it. And it was the final acceptance
and. Almost the duality of
surrendering, but completely notbuying into the bullshit both at
the same time that. The bully just started to go.
Ah, you've woken up. Now we don't have any power over
(46:16):
you. And slowly that evaporated and
also like other than that. You know, seeing people in my
life that when I, when I was about to lose everything, still
love me, I was like, hmm ohhh, it doesn't.
None of this actually matters because I I always have and
always will belong so I can falloff the deep end if I want to.
(46:40):
And and after giving myself permission to let all that fear
in and whatever, maybe, maybe itactually went away.
Perfect scene. A perfect analogy for what you
said then about taking on the internal bully or those things
in your mind that are trying to kill you so you can kill your
life is the scene from Eight Mile with M&M.
(47:02):
It's the M&M scene where at the end he's fighting the champion
rap artist where they're just shredding each other and he
beats him to the punch with current every single thing he
could say, and my drops it and couldn't fight him.
He defeated him because I killedyou in advance.
I know what you're going to say.That's part of what we do in
social Kung Fu. One of our modules man is in in
(47:25):
terms of resilience building is.We have several tables where you
have to fill out the best description you can about your
life. So one table is.
The obvious is your physical attributes.
How tall are you? How would you describe your
nose? How would you describe your
weight? How would you describe your
heart on a level of attractiveness out of 10?
(47:49):
How would you see yourself And it stumps young people, but when
they fill it out and then they go back over it as, OK, imagine
you're a bully. What could they say easily about
these types of attributes? That what names could they call
you? What have they called you
already? And then the third round, it's
like, OK, don't leave them hanging because you feel bad.
(48:10):
Like Oh yeah, I'm, I'm short blah blah blah blah blah this.
Is like what would a fair judge say?
So one of the premises of socialKung Fu is.
We're all judges. Everyone in young, young people
always say this in our service. Like I fear judgement.
It's like, well, if there's judgement, then that that means
(48:31):
this judges, you were those judges, you're one of them.
You're you're neighbours, one ofthem.
The question isn't if we have judgement or not.
The question is, is it fair? Was it based on Every judge
needs to base their decision through a law of fairness or of
justice. So go back over your answers.
(48:52):
What did you say about yourself as internal referencing?
That's like getting your view ofyourself in what does
externally? How could that be seen?
And then lastly, if you were a fair judge, would you say those
things are accurate and that's one of the exercises in our in
our curriculum which is being researched by the Sydney
University at the moment. So by this time next year you'll
(49:14):
be evidence based. So I'm very, very excited about
that from someone who got out. I'm very proud of that because
with my journey and academia, it's like most unlikely thing.
But yeah, I want some scientistsall about figuring out what
works, and I'm keen to see how it goes.
Yeah, man, I I. Think you're a Kung Fu master at
(49:36):
rewriting stories? And you know, as someone who has
rewritten a story of I'm not academic and I'm prone to
bullying, to I now lead a movement of overcoming bullying
and have a formula that is so robust that universities want to
study it. That is what I take away from
(49:57):
from Matt. You know, Matt is a sensei of
changing narratives and not succumbing to what the external
world says you can be, and that is a testament to your
character, man. And so for people to want to
follow on your journey, where's the best place for them to find
(50:20):
you? I think Instagrams were most
active on that Purcell. Just look up Matt Purcell.
You see some Asian dude smiling and social Kung Fu is my um.
Education movement, I guess all company that's mission is to
train a million students in Australia with verbal self
(50:42):
defence and yeah, it's really exciting.
They're like we got Professor Carolyn Hunt from University of
Sydney. She's like the president of the
Psychology Association of Australia.
She's like the Queen, literally the person for anxiety in
Australia and she's taking on this project and I I just could
not believe, wow, the. Willingness to wanna do it.
(51:04):
She's got a huge passion to helpyoung people and there's an
interview of me and her on YouTube now.
We just put it up. Just discussing like the process
of research has been frustrating.
It's so long through it to to get things through ethics and
everything like that. Because I'm a business student
heart too. So it's like, I'm like Caroline,
(51:26):
Professor Caroline. Who do I need to send a nice box
of flower suit if get this signed off?
Like this is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, go.
Welcome to academia, yeah. Yeah, totally.
So brother. What is one piece of advice that
you think that you've been told or you live by that you'd like
(51:49):
our listeners to know the couple, but I'll choose one.
Think is need to do and do is need to think.
What I mean by that is. From my nature, it's like I'm a
(52:12):
doer and some people think, oh do is it the best do?
Is what you want to do is like? Well if you're doing 7 things
wrong at once it's not a good thing to be a doer and that way
you gotta learn to think a bit and think is tend to
procrastinate and to theoretically go through things
and have a good plan But they can they're they're big enemy is
(52:34):
not acting out what they know. They're not obeying the
knowledge that they might have learnt.
So they don't have a lot to showfor it.
So I think you need to do but dois definitely need to think
because I've been a door my whole life up to.
And then I realised he can dive into water thinking it's deep
but it's shallow and you can snap your neck.
And the more I've got into the world of business the last 10
(52:58):
years and you would know this Mitch like.
Strategy is a thinking thing, and it's a doing thing.
But before you do, you need a strategy.
And planning is a thinking thing.
And I've become much more of a thinker in my later years than
actually a dua. And it's it's funny how I start
at this end, but I've gravitatedtoward the opposite end.
(53:18):
So I'd say if I put on a billboard, think it's do and do
its thing. Love it.
Well, brother, thank you so muchfor thinking with me out loud
today. It's been an absolute pleasure
to to have you on the pod and looking forward to to continuing
to connect and hopefully many other people to connect with you
(53:41):
too. Yeah.
Thanks, man. And I just want to say before we
finish, Mitch, you're part of a new breed, a new Gen of.
Thought leadership, I think. We have.
That and we have like people wholive right now that are, you
(54:04):
know, from a generation that spoke to a generation that are
now going into then the carryingon their life and their ageing.
I like the new Gen, I like some of the entrepreneurs I'm seeing
in the world. I love seeing the Mitch Mitches
of the world because a lot of them have a lot more soul and a
lot more human grounding than just being all about
(54:27):
achievement. I feel like previous generations
we might have overdosed on. You are what you do.
You are what you do. You are what you do.
It's like, do you have be you have to do to have then you are
somebody. I feel like you're a guy that's
like, no, let's figure out who do you need to be to do than to
(54:48):
have? And I think you're just about to
blow up, man. I'm, I'm.
Here. I'm cheering you on.
Thank you brother that. Means a lot, especially coming
from someone who. Yeah, has a fairly wide view of
the world and and voices in thisspace.
(55:08):
It means a lot. It's very humbling.
Thank you. No worries man.
Thanks for having me.
Today's guest is Matt Purcell, who was born in a small town in
South Korea to a young mother who was unable to raise him.
This sparked an incredible work ethic in Matt, who gained
qualifications in mental health and founded the Green Room MP,
helping hundreds of people with music and life coaching.
Matt later founded Caillou Media, an award winning creative
(00:25):
agency, as a leader in personal branding.
He's worked with ABC, Westfield,Sony, MX and much more.
He's also the founder of Social Kung Fu, Australia's number one
verbal self defence and confidence training for
students. His mission is to impact
1,000,000 young people with his training against bullying and
(00:47):
dehumanisation and raise a generation to become more self
aware. His passion and work ethic are
embedded within everything he does and I'm very grateful and
excited to have him on the show today.
I was really impressed with Matt's ability to talk about
(01:07):
characters and brands and then link that back to the character
and brand story that we're telling inside our own minds.
Because often we are just the sum of the stories that we play
out in our mind. And so there's some really
useful tips and tools on how to restructure your own narrative
(01:29):
and find a lot of inspiration and resilience from how Matt has
been able to build an incrediblyinspiring life despite his
circumstances. So without further ado, here is
Matt. So Matt, we're in very similar
spaces and you have a passion for helping people, particularly
young people. And I think most people who end
(01:51):
up in our space do so because oflived experience.
Can you tell me about a time, your earliest memory, where you
thought to yourself I am not enough?
I remember being in you. I remember when I was seven
years old, I went to a new school.
And my parents just separated only two weeks before.
(02:15):
And I was one of only three Asian kids in the school, and I
got on the new school bus. And seven years, seven students
would just use me as a human boxing bag in my backpack would
become a soccer ball. And I couldn't shake him.
I couldn't distract him, couldn't defend myself.
(02:36):
And then a few weeks later they took it too far, threw me in a
whiz bin and they did that for for days and I kept it secret
from my mum. He was working a couple of jobs.
And wash myself clothes, wash myclothes to try and keep it
secret. And then they eventually found
she eventually found out. And that was the very first time
(02:57):
I felt literally like a piece ofrubbish.
Literally. Like.
Yeah, I couldn't defend myself. My voice wasn't heard and after
the event the bullying stopped because the principal and all
that got involved. But the words started and they
were like verbal punches and I remember just getting.
(03:19):
Abused verbally for months and my friends would be there but
they wouldn't say anything. No one would defend me and all I
knew was to do was to hit back with Will Smith.
People back and hit him when they would say things to me.
So that was the only thing I knew within me to do.
So that was the first memory. Of.
(03:40):
Feeling worthless? Yeah, I'll bet.
Man, that is absolutely deplorable that that happens.
And do you think that that stillhappens?
I know that might seem like a very naive question, but I like
to believe that things are getting better based on your
work with students. Is that level of bullying still
occurring? Yeah, it is.
(04:03):
I travelled to regional areas aswell as cities and.
It's. A lot of physical bullying.
Still happens like I was I was in Swan Hill, which is like on
the border of NSW and Victoria. It has the highest rate of
teenage teenage pregnancy in thestate.
(04:24):
It's only a small town. And an incident happened
recently in the school where. Massive fight broke out and yeah
schools are really struggling tobe able to know what to do and
how to to manage it. But a lot of it came from cyber.
A lot of it was building up overmonths and a lot of tension with
(04:46):
words and type typing and talking were the big trick is
that led to a big fight. So it does happen.
I think a lot of it these days is verbal and and and texting
and cyber which is, I mean if you think about.
The cyber it's that's only one. Fairly new in a history of being
(05:08):
followed home and not being ableto escape the day check out from
the bully. So it's it still happens, but
takes many forms. Do you think that the experience
still lives with you today and shapes the way that you view the
world? Because you've obviously done a
lot of work on yourself to be a very confident man who stands on
(05:29):
stage and is sure of himself. Is that voice of the bully still
tucked away somewhere in your brain?
No, I I don't think the voices are there.
They're not. At least they're not very loud.
If there were there, there have been completely.
(05:51):
I guess drowned out with. Residents in my mind that I've
approved of to be in it. So I I I have had to learned
that my life is like a living house and.
Inside my house, valuable thingslike my dreams and my health and
my relationships. And a lot of people treat their
(06:12):
lives. They they A lot of people treat
their own physical house better than their own mental health.
Where a stranger could knock on their door and fail.
Hey, can you let me in? And most people don't know who
are you? And they have more of a boundary
in value on their physical housethan strategies that come up to
(06:32):
you and say you're a piece of crap and some and that's.
Something I've really like you said I've really had to work on,
but I think it's. Definitely a villain in my story
that I that draws me forward toward a goal rather than pulls
me down. I I that if that voice exists,
it's the justice in me that goes.
(06:54):
I don't want anyone to feel. Helpless and worthless slut that
without you can do something about it.
Now you can say something back. Why do some people recover from
experiences like that and turn out to be people like you versus
people who don't and carry a traumatised, distorted view of
(07:16):
the world for a very long time because of what was done to them
in childhood? Yeah, I mean, as an adoptee
even, like I've met a lot of adoptees.
And it's been 5050 where? They've seen their life as half
empty or or half full, you know,and.
(07:36):
Half empty or yeah, the other way, yeah.
And. I think it comes down to.
I mean, it's cliche, but it's cliched.
It is. It's like the reinforcement of
people in your life. And the external like for me,
what's really helped me is to beable to distinguish the
(07:59):
difference between. Relying on external validation
or internal referencing meaning.If I have.
A. If I depend on solely on the
feedback and solely on the external praises or criticisms
from people externally, then I'mforever insecure and forever
(08:21):
needing that to feed me and to keep me secure.
And that's the only source of food I have for my my identity.
And I think it's. When you can find either a
person in your life or an event in your life which makes you
look. To go OK, I can't rely on just
(08:41):
external people to tell me who Iam.
I need to internally do work internally reference like what?
What? What triggers me?
What are my dreams? Is it really true what they're
saying? This stress might or someone
else is there. That's all internal referencing.
Versus How do they think of me? What's gonna make them happy?
(09:04):
What can I do to prove myself? That's all external.
So I think for my life it came down to some people, which I'm
so glad for my mother that she. Put me into a local youth group
when I was a teenager who were. Relevant and cool and hip, but
also talked about meaning and and deeper issues and lived out
(09:24):
a different culture. That really infinite means
influence of me to think about those things.
That's a very good way of explaining the power of
connection and how when we are nurtured in the right way, it
can overcome even the hardest oftraumas.
And there's a bunch of research on how attachment style can
(09:46):
guard against symptomology laterdown the track.
As an adult, if you have the right people around you to help
process and work through it, when people choose the glass
glass half empty option, do you think that's because they don't
have that type of support aroundthem?
Or do you think some people are born more?
(10:09):
Maybe. I don't know if optimistic and
resilient is the word, but what?Why?
Why do you think that occurs? Yeah, I think I've met people
that have. We've all met people say, for
example, externally, culturally,they're beautiful, they're
physically beautiful, they're talented, they've got something
good going for them. Yet they feel like they're never
(10:33):
enough. You know, I had a a very pretty
friend in high school and she forever never believed anything.
We told her that you know, you're beautiful inside out.
No. No, I'm not.
And a family we're loving. And.
And she scored well and I said all the evidence was there
externally, but she was the onlyone who never believed it and.
(10:57):
From the outside looking in, youcould say that oht.
Some people would naively say, oh, she's just seeking attention
or she was just. But sometimes there are hardware
and software incompatible like issues like.
What I mean by that is. Externally, an external thing is
you might see someone with a broken ligament, and that's
(11:20):
totally understandable that you shouldn't expect them to lift
anything with that arm or an external visible disability.
But when it comes to internal invisible issues such as
insecurity or maybe the tendencyto be more on the.
More depressed or it would be more.
You'd have the research on that,Mitch.
(11:43):
I think that's less we don't have the tools to be able to
know how to. Generally speaking, how do we
approach someone with that? With, with empathy and with.
With. That's useful.
Instead of saying you're wrong, you're wrong, you're beautiful,
you're wrong, you're wrong that you've got see all the external
things. Why are you?
Why do you disagree with me instead of having this
argumentative chat? So I throw that back to you.
(12:04):
Mike, what do you think about? From your research that you
found the people tend to lean toward that side of being more
the glass half empty genetically.
Or is it when when an externallythings are OK, like in this case
with my friend, yeah, I think itit can be a mixture of both
(12:28):
nature and nurture. But I what I also believe is
true is that the way you view yourself is more of a choice
than you believe. And the the story that gets
created is more important than the situations that you endure.
And the story is, is malleable. It's plastic, it's adaptable and
(12:49):
it's trustable. And so I know that you're an
expert in personal branding and helping people establish
themself as a being known for something and standing for
something. How do you think personal brand
from a mental health perspectiveplays out when you have a
negative self story and you so badly want the world to view you
(13:14):
as something else? How do you cross the bridge?
Yeah. There's an old.
There's an Old Testament. In the in the in the Bible, this
is all 10 commandments, and one of them is he showing up.
You shall not bear false witnessto your neighbour.
And one day when I. But it just came across that
(13:37):
years ago. It's always stuck to me with
personal brand in a weird way because like bear witness to
your to your neighbour, bearing witness is a a legal term.
And basically when you're at court and you put on the stand,
you just have to give an accountof what you've seen, what you've
heard and what you've felt like.You've got to give account to
(13:58):
what's been in your life. Is facts and.
What most people, what how, how,how I help people start the
journey with if they've got a negative view of themselves.
It's like you need to look at bearing witness to what you've
done. But so many people are more
competent than what they think, and the evidence is there, and I
(14:19):
need to point them in that rightdirection to see, like, listen,
look at, let's look at your timeline.
You have grown a great business.You have a great family.
You you're profiting here, You've won an award here or you.
You, even through your family history, you've come from this
and not repeated the cycle. And that's part of your journey,
(14:39):
and we're crafting some of this,that there's some of the
ingredients we have then to be able to craft.
A I guess it's self creation. This concept of self creation,
we can craft a story that you can, a new story you can believe
in based on not imaginary thingsbut on facts.
And that's where I begin. When people who are insecure
about themselves, Yeah, it's a cognitive behavioural therapy
(15:03):
technique, right? Is to challenge false stories
with actual evidence and facts. And it's hard to see evidence
when your story feels so familiar that it feels like a
fact. And it is through deep
investigation and challenging that we are able to craft a new
view of ourselves and the world as a personal brand expert,
(15:25):
What's the one word that you want to be?
You want people to describe you as.
One word. Oh.
I guess that one word would be. Honest.
(15:46):
Yeah, honest, I think I I think personal branding is a lot to do
with identity. That's why I love the work.
That's what makes so much sense with my journey from being an
adoptee to have gone to what I've gone through and wanting to
help people with their identities through youth to
professionals. When you know who you are.
(16:09):
You become less shakable and youhave then a base to build on.
You're not changing costumes every second because you're
talking like it's it's true security.
When you know who you are, if you don't know who you are, then
you're at the. You risk.
I don't know. Just building 7 things and
(16:30):
you're not sure what you're doing If you're not know who
you're doing it for. So yeah, I think it's personal.
Branding is a synonym for identity building for me, Yeah.
And what is some of the most stable building blocks you have
found for someone to achieve a positive personal brand on
(16:52):
social media? And I'm curious to see what the
answers are, because it might correlate to how people use
those building blocks to build their own mental health.
Yeah, I'll give you a little bitof a framework with story
building for personal operating.And I'm gonna borrow a page from
our good friend Peter Parker. I love Peter Parker as a kid.
I love Spiderman and some of thebest.
(17:15):
Personal brands are actually notreal people.
They're. The Like Forever Then the most
promotable brands are like the Tony Starks who who Audi paid
thirty $300 million to put him in.
He's not a real person. Or James Bond, who Amiga pays
millions of dollars to and he's a real person.
And the thing that really sticksout about Spiderman story for me
(17:38):
and you can use this framework for your own brands, is Peter
has a context. Where's he from?
It's from Manhattan. These are these aren't May Uncle
Ben and his parents passed away.What's his situation at school?
Well he's a nerdy kid. He's not cool.
He's awkward around girls. He's he's he's a he's a he's a
(18:00):
nerd essentially in in in the comics.
And then you go into there was adefining moment.
Something happened in his life where he was bitten by a spider
and that gave him an ability. He discovered an ability.
Climbing walls, super strength, all these things, but he's not
yet a hero or a villain yet. He discovered his purpose
(18:21):
through tragedy, through pain. Which is when he let a criminal
go, and that criminal actually ended up killing his uncle.
And his uncle on. His dying words were, you know,
remember what I said? You know, with great power comes
great responsibility. And that was when Spiderman was
birth. So it was from context to
(18:42):
discovery of abilities to then discovering purpose.
And that what that's at one end of the spectrum and the other
end of the spectrum, there's thedefining attributes of spine
Meme, the the, the alter ego of spider images Peter.
And then the ego. The other side of it is Spider
Man, which is what's he's defining physical attributes.
Well, he's he sees the colours red and blue.
(19:03):
Is the spider symbol. That's your logo.
You see certain powers that he has.
That's what Spiderman is known for.
And if you have a spectrum like this, when you get closer in the
middle from your your story and your your hero with the mask,
you become more authentic. And I think that's where the
sweet spot is. So we're trying to close the gap
(19:27):
between what people think we areand who we are, and it's
authenticity that really allows people to shine bright.
That's right. Yeah.
And I'll say this too, like somewould say, hey Matt.
Is that a little bit like, are you saying to curate some
things? And I'm suggesting yeah, you do.
And curations become a dirty C word to some content creators or
(19:50):
people who are on the full, authentic route.
And I think. When you go for a job interview.
You don't say I like sushi in your resume.
You know, say I like bonds as myunderwear.
You curate you. You wanna present in context the
best message forward for yourself to be able to get the
(20:11):
role that suits their organisation.
Resumes are marketing document. People might think I'm not a
marketer, but resumes are for the person who are looking to
hire in order about you is for them.
So it's the same type of deal. How can I craft my story with
the important part? That's what movies are so good
at. You never see Jason Bourne in a
(20:33):
movie with a scene where he goesup to Fitness 1st and gets his
membership sign up and goes through the list with the
receptionist. That's not in any movie because
what's the point? So they Excuse me.
So the the story has to everything has to support the
story. Every, every note, every lyric.
(20:54):
No matter how skilled you are, no matter how technically good
you are in a song, everything has to be rendered under it.
Does IT support the song or doesit distract from the song and
it's the same as the message? Hmm.
Yeah. Perception really is just the
sum of a bunch of small, discrete parts that end up
(21:15):
adding up to become who we are. And then that image of the way
that we are viewed by the world gets perpetually reinforced back
to us and creates a character. I think some people feel trapped
by the character that the world views them as and then they've
(21:36):
reinforced themselves to be. Have you had instances where
you've worked with people who don't want to be perceived the
certain way and actually want tochange that?
And if so, do they have to change internally before the
external world sees it as that? That's a good question.
I think I'll give you an example.
(21:57):
We call it a rebrand in personalreading later.
So you're known maybe as one thing, but you wanna start
repositioning yourself into a new channel or a new to be known
as a new thing. It's two different topics to say
that if you're known for a bad thing, you gotta pass and you
were gonna make it good better because you got all these sins
(22:19):
there, especially if they're made public.
That's like a big PR piece. That's a that's a lot of time.
It's not impossible, but you cando it.
But say Layne Beachley is a goodfriend of mine, one of my I love
Layne Beachley more than most people.
Like she's a sister. She's adopted as well, like me.
She went through a whole period where she was in an industry
(22:39):
where the men were winning million dollar prize money and
the women were getting 90 grand as world champions and she was
one of the most strongest voicesto make help surfing become the
first sport in history to be equally paid with women and men.
So it's surfing was the very first sport in history where the
prize made was the same and Lanewas really behind that and on
(23:02):
the board meetings in the in corporate spaces and when she
finishes A7 time world champion she scratching head going I mean
I'm an ex athlete now what do I do.
I've got so much to give. I've got I'm, I'm known as
forever frozen in time as a surfer.
But I want to help people because of all the resilience he
(23:22):
had built, being in that industry, building a great brand
which she lived off her. She's a great brand in her own
right with endorsements. She's left millions of dollars
on the table because it didn't look pseudo brand should tell
you Bundaberg Rum offering $1,000,000 for Layne Beachley to
be ambassador doesn't suit the bread.
(23:45):
She's really $1,000,000 on the table.
That's that's an example of how power, if you know who you are,
you're going to have to say no to big paying things like that
sometimes because that's like selling.
That is literally that definition.
I know who I am, but I'm willingto trade out who I am for a
dollar a buck. That's just like divorcing this
(24:07):
relationship you have with yourself, this certain you have
yourself. So back to my point like Lane
was honestly 7 to world times world champion.
But she wanted to be able to position herself more in the
Wellness space and being a champion for Wellness.
So the exercise we had to do, then we she went on a a lot of
(24:28):
inner work. She went on a journey where she
actually got trained in mental health to a mental health aid
first aid. She's gone to multiple, yeah.
She's gone through a lot of training over the last 10 years
to be able to versus herself with the right way to be able to
explain to her audience what shewent through and some tools.
(24:51):
So there wasn't a work done before she went public with it.
And I think that's really important because if you don't
do the inner work first before you rebrand, then you're like a
guitarist who's just saying I'm a professional guitars, but I'm
learning every week to stay afloat you've got to do the work
beforehand. So that's why I respect brands
who who stand the test of time because behind every good brand,
(25:13):
behind any good personal brand has been about 6 to 12 months
sometimes of of reeducating themselves and versing
themselves on their new area. Hmm.
So the work does happen internally in order to be
externally achieved. What what's curious about Lane
(25:36):
Story and who by all accounts seems to be an amazing person
and has achieved so much, is that.
She by rejecting deals like withBundaberg to draw a parallel to
mental health. I think it's like rejecting
people and things that don't align to the values of who you
(25:58):
are and who you want to be. Because there are multiple
moments on our journey when we're experiencing anxiety and
depression that there are quick wins that come up that look to
be appealing. For example, you might turn to
alcohol or drugs, or you might go towards people who give you
false validation That's not actually true.
And the result of that is that the perception of ourself being
(26:20):
not aligned with who we want to be gets reinforced and we're
further away from our from our true essence.
And I think what Lane did from amore of an external marketing
perspective has a lot of similarities to what we need to
do internally, which is know whowe are, so much so or know who
we want to be so much so. That we get very good at saying
(26:43):
no to things that don't fall in line with that as much as we get
good at saying yes. Because at the end of the day,
the character that we're all striving to be is playing out
now. The quality of our mental health
is determining our mental healthat all points in time.
Like if you have a negative viewof self and you do things every
day in your life, that reinforces that you're not who
(27:05):
you want to be. That is a path to rock bottom.
But if you're constantly having the disciplined.
Pursuit of reinforcing the aspirational character that you
want to to become. You will become that character.
The difference is those who are disciplined enough to stay on
the path. That's so true.
And you see that in relationships a lot socially,
(27:28):
where one of the saddest storiesI've heard for in my life was my
mum. And it was from my mom.
And she had just a a close friend split up with her partner
and she was with the new guy very quickly.
And my mom wasn't being judgmental anything.
(27:48):
But she asked her like, wow, what?
What happened? So, like you've moved on pretty
quick. Like, you must be the one, Like,
what is it? She's like, it's the best I
could do. And it's like, wow, like, that's
just an example to your point ofI think when you struggle, that
you have your negative review ofyourself.
(28:11):
You'll take what you feel like, what you think he here's the
thing, he's in one phrase. It's how do you think of
yourself, determines what you think you deserve.
So if I don't think I'm much, then from my mom's friend's
point of view this is the best Icould do.
That's it so far. Hmm, yeah, I do believe that.
(28:34):
We attract into our life what wethink we yeah deserve and are
worthy of. And the hardest part is, is
shifting our internal sense of worth.
A huge thing Other than surrounding yourself with the
right people, what is? Can you give me two, maybe 3
(28:55):
examples of how you've built self worth over the course of
your life after being told to use your words you were a piece
of garbage. When I was 12, my dad gave me a
guitar and I had no idea if I'd take to it or not, being that
young. But I discovered very quickly
(29:17):
that this instrument or music and me was like the perfect
match made in heaven, creativity, to express myself
through something other than anger or through physical
lashing out or verbally losing control.
So I had an outlet that really channelled my energy to towards
(29:40):
something beautiful. And I remember when I was about
1415, I started getting really, really good at it because I was
intrinsically motivated to to learn.
And it was quickly recognised bya lot of people in my school and
in the city I was playing gigs by.
I was 1516, I played session music, played The Tool with
Jimmy Barnes. When I was in my early 20s I
(30:02):
was, you know, session music andI remember is 14 years old and I
was figuring out by year one of the hardest songs I had.
I've had in my mind if I could learn this song.
I'm doing alright. And I was, as I was figuring out
in real time, no guitar teacher just ringing about you.
I just caught myself. Look at myself going.
You know what, Matt? You're not a piece of shit.
(30:25):
And that was one of the best therapies I've ever had in my
life was being able to get on a guitar or get something
creative. Have an aim in being able to
have this gift, to be able to figure out patterns.
Pattern recognition is one of the strongest things in my my
arsenal. I can look at a movie, you can
hear a song, I know what key it's in.
(30:45):
I don't know how to replicate that.
I know the gradients to be and then can't make it contextual to
a person, and that was one of the best building blocks for my
confidence because one that was an ability like something I
could actually. Pave, you know, be productive
with it can earn a living. It can help people.
The second thing was. Having sparring.
(31:08):
Having a verbal sparring partner.
Very verbal sparring partners are just like having a boxing
partner. You're not trying to kill each
other in the ring, but you do have simulations of real debate.
Testing out ideas, testing out moves.
Not having a safe space to be able to say I had this thought
(31:32):
about some controversial idea without the fear of being judged
for it or being posted on about and help someone going.
What's the best argument againstthat, Matt?
Like I didn't think about that. And then getting better and
better and better. So that was intellectually
boring. Brawling it away through
conversation, Sparring. And.
(31:56):
The third thing, I guess he feels the third thing for me was
having a philosophy. Philosophy.
He's the great middle ground. Or he can be the primary main
show for a lot of people. That helps you make sense,
think, makes sense of things in life.
There's science, which is amazing.
Science is incredible with the study of observations of
(32:18):
behaviour in the world. His philosophy is.
Philo means in the Greek means lover of wisdom, fellow lover,
Sofie of wisdom. And when I discovered philosophy
like Socrates and Plato and and and Seneca and all these things
(32:40):
as an early 20 year old, it changed my life because I gave
my my brain an OS system to be able to put my problems through.
And it helped me, gave me tools to that, combined with some
science or some mental health training.
Was that maybe just zoom out pinched out rather than double
tap? I can double tap on things and
(33:02):
zoom out because I have these tools, so I have.
Yeah, talent or something. I can say this is this is
tangible, built, sparring part of the intellectually brawl and
I know where system to make sense of problems.
Hmm, I think. What the first point you made
(33:23):
speaks to is. Having something that you can be
proud of as well, and I think having something you can be
proud of builds. A reason to want to get up in
the morning. You know the guitar.
It's not. It wasn't the guitar that helped
you build yourself worth it was what it represented, right?
It was that I I have something that brings me joy.
(33:47):
Allows me to feel socially included.
I get a positive behavioural loop because it reinforced by
people saying that they like it.I get to help people.
But but above all that, I get tobe proud that I'm offering
something to someone and. That is, I believe, why many of
(34:11):
us can build self worth when we invest in a skill or a thing
that has bigger meaning and purpose than just ourselves.
And not skill for the sake of competition or for the sake of
needing to be anywhere. But just feeling skillful in and
of itself I think is very therapeutic.
(34:33):
And I'm glad that that was your experience.
Yeah, Yeah, it's I I mentioned before like internal referencing
or internal validation. And that was one of the very
first moments where I had decided that I.
Like I like me doing this. This feel makes me feel good and
I can disguise the limit with this.
(34:53):
This is like for me, only it wasan audience of it.
It was only honestly for an audience of 1 before it became
for an audience of anyone else. Hmm.
And when you. Say verbal sparring partner, is
that just people in your life who you can be real with and
feel heard from? No, I think it's more
intentional than that. It's it's actually, well, it's
(35:17):
it's not an it. It is like an agreement.
Not everyone of my friends or able to.
They don't have the persona or or the.
The interest sometimes to be able to do this exercise, but
I've got several. I've got probably several five
to seven people on my phone thatwe regularly in the car.
(35:38):
They'll call me. I'll call them or in in night
time would be like let's test. What do you be thinking about
lately? And we just hear it out and we
we and they expect a a worthy opponent.
It's not competition. It's actually out of curiosity
is am I on the right track? I thought this out much in
(35:58):
Japanese martial arts. There was a very valued
principle on seeking to find a worthy opponent.
So if you look at anime films like Naruto, One Punch Man, any
fighting films, they're always even Pokémon, they're always
saying. So I need to fight someone who's
(36:20):
better, and that's Japanese culture, because in order to be
a master at something, you need to find someone who's worthy,
who's equal or better than you to be able to one, it shows you
what your boundaries are, what your limits are, and to it,
that's the only way they believeto be able to get better.
So I think in our Western culture, it's not a very
(36:43):
comfortable feeling to naturallyseek out someone to challenge
you or to be challenged by. But when you when you find out
that's that's the principal lifefind.
It's like I wanna find a worthy opponent and I found people who
want that too. And it's about the idea rather
than the individual was it? We leave.
We leave the the conversation. Not with wiping blood from a
(37:05):
mouth, but better and sharper. Higher sharpens and so how did?
How did you, How do you? Feel as though that helped you
build yourself worth that specific technique.
I think it was similar to the guitar in creativity.
It's sometimes realising that arriving at my own ideas.
(37:31):
OK, so for example Mitch in school I got an Asterix for my
HSC. So I I got lower than 38 are for
my HC. Look at me now bitches.
Anyway. Talk to me.
So for a long time, I thought I wasn't smart and intellectually
(37:53):
having a sparring partner was. Really helpful for me to be able
to internally accept myself thatI am smart because I naturally
am a deep thinker. From the things I went through
as a kid, I was always gravitating toward things that
will watch more, much more abovewhat people talk about my age.
(38:14):
And when I found someone who'd be, who's willing to challenge
and then listening to grow and to be able to heat, that's
actually right. You're on the right path.
I'm talking to a psychologist and like, yeah, that's like
you're saying with some things. I'm saying yes, it's called me
bias or that, or that's called me behaviour therapy.
It's like I'm arriving at these these thoughts that I've been
(38:35):
thinking, I've validated throughresearch or through other people
or challenged, and I'll have to rethink it.
And I come back with a more, better, better worldview.
And that's helped me got smarter, become smarter in my
own perspective, not just from other peoples saying that I am.
And yeah, same with discovery. I feel like it's the music.
It's like I'm not a dumb ass. My thoughts.
(39:00):
One of my observations. And that that builds trust in
yourself. So that's when you can make more
off the cuff decisions like no, that's a good, that's a good
move, let's do that. Or you can have weight behind
your words because they're well thought out and you've done a
lot of work in private to be able to arrive at that.
Hmm, yeah, totally agree. Self trust is a massive
(39:22):
component of being able to move through life a bit more freely,
as opposed to just feeling like you're swimming through water to
take another step forward. Whenever I have had some of my
hardest moments in life, it's when I've trusted myself the
least. It's a shit situation to be in
(39:43):
and I think when we can in moments like that when we can go
back to anything. That will help us remember that
we have competence in something that starts to rebuild the self
trust. Because when it's gone man, it's
the it's the worst place to be. You don't wanna feel like you
don't have your own back or you can't trust your own judgement.
(40:04):
Yeah, that's really true. Mitch, I'm curious to ask you a
question with that like. What I talked a lot about, you
know, like you you, you you articulated so well without
having something that you're proud of is good for confidence
building. I talked about verbal sparring.
So there's more of an intellectual confidence when you
(40:26):
felt low on your life. What areas were knocked?
At like did you feel like you were dumb?
Did you feel like you were? What?
What what? What were these?
Were these confidence pillars knocked out, or were they all
what? Were they based on your
confidence? My issues have never really been
(40:47):
real world problems in the sensethat it wasn't how I looked, it
wasn't if I was smart, wasn't ifI was achieving well, whether I
could pick up a girl. The things that have almost
buried me have been invisible belief systems that have eroded
my soul to, in particular, one being I for most of my life,
(41:11):
believed to the core that I was crazy.
And therefore completely unworthy of belonging.
And I don't mean like crazies inother guys, a bit kooky.
I was like there is something wrong with my hardwiring.
Hmm, the second belief. System I had for a very long
(41:32):
time. Most of my life was I am a bad
person, and that manifested in prepubescent years in acute OCD
because I thought I was possessed.
I was that that bad. Like I would have a thought that
most normal, healthy kids would have and in my mind from
(41:54):
somewhere. Like, let's say for example,
when I started having thoughts about girls coming into puberty,
I was like, oh, you're the worst.
You're possessed by the devil, like something is wrong.
And and and that produced this intensive intrusive thought
loop, which. Thank OCD.
For which just varies your self image.
(42:17):
So the the thoughts of I'm a badperson, I'm a crazy person,
pretty much drove me to the point of wanting to take my own
life on multiple occasions and they now no longer have power
over me because I don't believe either of them.
But the thing I'm proudest of most, even though I've started
the mental health charity and speak on stage and worked at
(42:40):
Microsoft and all that other stuff, that that's not what I'm
most proud of. What I'm most proud of is I
remember vividly staring down. A mental, metaphorical hull of
insanity. I remember exactly where I was.
I was standing on a Wharf in on the side of a lake in Seattle.
(43:01):
I had just left the doctor's appointment and I could feel,
literally feel psychosis one single step away from me.
And I remember being like, if I go there, I'm never coming out,
ever. And it was like alluring me.
I was like, I'm going to have a psychotic break right now.
I can fucking feel it. I was just holding on to
(43:22):
reality. And I fought so, so hard to claw
my way back into a rational mindset and to now be living in
working mental health for my whole life.
But I remember the exact moment in time where I was like I could
(43:43):
go off that deep end right now into this black hole and never
return. And I'm most proud of fighting
myself out of that than any realworld accomplishment.
Hmm, that's really interesting, man.
I find that a lot of people struggle in their life because
(44:04):
we have with when you have internal struggles.
Some people really turn to try and find they rely on external
solutions for external problems,internal problems.
So I what I mean by that is if I've got trauma, buying a new
suit. And just be silly for me to say,
(44:24):
and it's not true. Like I'll buy this new suit, it
takes my trauma away. An external material doesn't fix
it and it's an internal strugglelike that.
And it's interesting, like you can throw yourself into
accomplishments. You could throw yourself in as
and and in part they'll that they can top up some type of
level of satisfaction, but fizzles quick.
(44:47):
Um, so how did you? I mean, that's that's a whole
interview and it's all for you. But like, just tell me.
One, because I'm really interested about how you got
through breaking that belief, what you have to do to break the
belief and not. Listen to it.
Um. Let it be.
(45:12):
True for a moment. As opposed to run.
Away from it and it was the experiencing of.
OK, maybe that is. That actually, it completely
lost its grip and ran away. And in all the ironies,
considering we've spoken about bullying, I feel like a lot of
those internal belief systems are bullies.
(45:34):
And the best way to confront a bully, in my experience, is to
not give them power, not give them fear, not run away, not buy
into that bullshit and. And I think for the first time
ever, I was like. What do you want from me?
Alright, I am all those things. Fine.
You fucking got me. I'm not scared of you, you know,
(45:55):
if that is who I am, if I am crazy, if I'm a bad person and
so be it. And it was the final acceptance
and. Almost the duality of
surrendering, but completely notbuying into the bullshit both at
the same time that. The bully just started to go.
Ah, you've woken up. Now we don't have any power over
(46:16):
you. And slowly that evaporated and
also like other than that. You know, seeing people in my
life that when I, when I was about to lose everything, still
love me, I was like, hmm ohhh, it doesn't.
None of this actually matters because I I always have and
always will belong so I can falloff the deep end if I want to.
(46:40):
And and after giving myself permission to let all that fear
in and whatever, maybe, maybe itactually went away.
Perfect scene. A perfect analogy for what you
said then about taking on the internal bully or those things
in your mind that are trying to kill you so you can kill your
life is the scene from Eight Mile with M&M.
(47:02):
It's the M&M scene where at the end he's fighting the champion
rap artist where they're just shredding each other and he
beats him to the punch with current every single thing he
could say, and my drops it and couldn't fight him.
He defeated him because I killedyou in advance.
I know what you're going to say.That's part of what we do in
social Kung Fu. One of our modules man is in in
(47:25):
terms of resilience building is.We have several tables where you
have to fill out the best description you can about your
life. So one table is.
The obvious is your physical attributes.
How tall are you? How would you describe your
nose? How would you describe your
weight? How would you describe your
heart on a level of attractiveness out of 10?
(47:49):
How would you see yourself And it stumps young people, but when
they fill it out and then they go back over it as, OK, imagine
you're a bully. What could they say easily about
these types of attributes? That what names could they call
you? What have they called you
already? And then the third round, it's
like, OK, don't leave them hanging because you feel bad.
(48:10):
Like Oh yeah, I'm, I'm short blah blah blah blah blah this.
Is like what would a fair judge say?
So one of the premises of socialKung Fu is.
We're all judges. Everyone in young, young people
always say this in our service. Like I fear judgement.
It's like, well, if there's judgement, then that that means
(48:31):
this judges, you were those judges, you're one of them.
You're you're neighbours, one ofthem.
The question isn't if we have judgement or not.
The question is, is it fair? Was it based on Every judge
needs to base their decision through a law of fairness or of
justice. So go back over your answers.
(48:52):
What did you say about yourself as internal referencing?
That's like getting your view ofyourself in what does
externally? How could that be seen?
And then lastly, if you were a fair judge, would you say those
things are accurate and that's one of the exercises in our in
our curriculum which is being researched by the Sydney
University at the moment. So by this time next year you'll
(49:14):
be evidence based. So I'm very, very excited about
that from someone who got out. I'm very proud of that because
with my journey and academia, it's like most unlikely thing.
But yeah, I want some scientistsall about figuring out what
works, and I'm keen to see how it goes.
Yeah, man, I I. Think you're a Kung Fu master at
(49:36):
rewriting stories? And you know, as someone who has
rewritten a story of I'm not academic and I'm prone to
bullying, to I now lead a movement of overcoming bullying
and have a formula that is so robust that universities want to
study it. That is what I take away from
(49:57):
from Matt. You know, Matt is a sensei of
changing narratives and not succumbing to what the external
world says you can be, and that is a testament to your
character, man. And so for people to want to
follow on your journey, where's the best place for them to find
(50:20):
you? I think Instagrams were most
active on that Purcell. Just look up Matt Purcell.
You see some Asian dude smiling and social Kung Fu is my um.
Education movement, I guess all company that's mission is to
train a million students in Australia with verbal self
(50:42):
defence and yeah, it's really exciting.
They're like we got Professor Carolyn Hunt from University of
Sydney. She's like the president of the
Psychology Association of Australia.
She's like the Queen, literally the person for anxiety in
Australia and she's taking on this project and I I just could
not believe, wow, the. Willingness to wanna do it.
(51:04):
She's got a huge passion to helpyoung people and there's an
interview of me and her on YouTube now.
We just put it up. Just discussing like the process
of research has been frustrating.
It's so long through it to to get things through ethics and
everything like that. Because I'm a business student
heart too. So it's like, I'm like Caroline,
(51:26):
Professor Caroline. Who do I need to send a nice box
of flower suit if get this signed off?
Like this is ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, go.
Welcome to academia, yeah. Yeah, totally.
So brother. What is one piece of advice that
you think that you've been told or you live by that you'd like
(51:49):
our listeners to know the couple, but I'll choose one.
Think is need to do and do is need to think.
What I mean by that is. From my nature, it's like I'm a
(52:12):
doer and some people think, oh do is it the best do?
Is what you want to do is like? Well if you're doing 7 things
wrong at once it's not a good thing to be a doer and that way
you gotta learn to think a bit and think is tend to
procrastinate and to theoretically go through things
and have a good plan But they can they're they're big enemy is
(52:34):
not acting out what they know. They're not obeying the
knowledge that they might have learnt.
So they don't have a lot to showfor it.
So I think you need to do but dois definitely need to think
because I've been a door my whole life up to.
And then I realised he can dive into water thinking it's deep
but it's shallow and you can snap your neck.
And the more I've got into the world of business the last 10
(52:58):
years and you would know this Mitch like.
Strategy is a thinking thing, and it's a doing thing.
But before you do, you need a strategy.
And planning is a thinking thing.
And I've become much more of a thinker in my later years than
actually a dua. And it's it's funny how I start
at this end, but I've gravitatedtoward the opposite end.
(53:18):
So I'd say if I put on a billboard, think it's do and do
its thing. Love it.
Well, brother, thank you so muchfor thinking with me out loud
today. It's been an absolute pleasure
to to have you on the pod and looking forward to to continuing
to connect and hopefully many other people to connect with you
(53:41):
too. Yeah.
Thanks, man. And I just want to say before we
finish, Mitch, you're part of a new breed, a new Gen of.
Thought leadership, I think. We have.
That and we have like people wholive right now that are, you
(54:04):
know, from a generation that spoke to a generation that are
now going into then the carryingon their life and their ageing.
I like the new Gen, I like some of the entrepreneurs I'm seeing
in the world. I love seeing the Mitch Mitches
of the world because a lot of them have a lot more soul and a
lot more human grounding than just being all about
(54:27):
achievement. I feel like previous generations
we might have overdosed on. You are what you do.
You are what you do. You are what you do.
It's like, do you have be you have to do to have then you are
somebody. I feel like you're a guy that's
like, no, let's figure out who do you need to be to do than to
(54:48):
have? And I think you're just about to
blow up, man. I'm, I'm.
Here. I'm cheering you on.
Thank you brother that. Means a lot, especially coming
from someone who. Yeah, has a fairly wide view of
the world and and voices in thisspace.
(55:08):
It means a lot. It's very humbling.
Thank you. No worries man.
Thanks for having me.
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