Reborn: PTSD, Healing & Motherhood with Ash Thomsen

Mitch sits down with lifelong friend Ash Thomsen for a raw, generous account of her son Bodhi’s birth - and the identity shift that followed. Ash shares how a gruelling 36-hour labour, medical complications, and postpartum anxiety/depression culminated in PTSD, and how she found her way back through support, medication, CBT, and especially EMDR - the trauma therapy that helped turn a terrifying event into a tolerable memory.

They talk control vs surrender, the “rebirth” of the mother, partnership under pressure, and why community matters in the first year.

This episode is for expectant parents, those recovering from birth trauma, and anyone reshaping themselves after a life-altering moment.

Disclaimer: birth trauma, postpartum mental health, PTSD.

Please listen at your own pace and reach out to supports if needed.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I I,I kick a break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside

(00:21):
us. Inside us.
I've been very interested in this.
Problem for a long, long time. Something settles.
Hey everyone, my name is Mitch Wallace.
Welcome back to the Heart of My Sleep podcast.
Today is a pretty personal and special one for me.

(00:42):
To be honest, this was probably my favourite episode I've ever
recorded. It was with one of my best
friends. Her name's Ash Thompson.
I've known her for decades and she struggled with mental health
throughout her life, but when she birthed her child Bodie, her
life changed forever. She had a significant birthing
trauma which led to PTSD. And Ashley, such a great

(01:07):
storyteller as she takes you on this journey.
As you listen, you'll feel her pain, but also, as importantly,
her learnings as she has rebuiltinto a version of herself she
never thought possible. I think this is for mothers who
are expecting. I think this is for mothers that

(01:28):
have had issues with birthing inthe past, that want to feel
understood and less alone. I think it's for parents,
including fathers as well, to understand just how much of A
toll the body takes during pregnancy.
But it's also for anyone that's experienced trauma of any kind

(01:49):
to the point where it's significantly changed their
nervous system. And particularly how effective a
process called EMDR can be, which Ash explains in her story
around how that has given her her life back, amongst a whole
bunch of other things from, you know, support from her husband

(02:11):
and medication, cognitive behavioural therapy and more.
But how even the most significant of traumas can be
reshaped and rewired in the brain if we approach the right
processes and if we loved enough?
I would encourage you to go slowduring this episode.
You know, there's a big trigger warning that things can get

(02:33):
pretty graphic here, but that doesn't mean to shy away.
It just means to take your time.And if this is something that
hits pretty close to home, I would encourage you take it in
chunks, debrief with people thatyou trust and love after
listening to parts of the episode, and make sure that you
have an active support system inplace that you can turn to.

(02:55):
But otherwise, I hope you feel as inspired by this story as I
did walking and guiding Ash toward her truth.
And I am grateful for everyone that listens and everyone that
shares as part of Heart on my Sleeve.
It's an honour to be in this community with you all.

(03:16):
My dear Ashy, You've been one ofmy closest friends for a very
long time. I had the fortunate privilege of
being a bride's man at your wedding, something that is rare
and and I think that it speaks volumes to our friendship is
that we've never had a conventional approach.
We're not conventional people and that's why we understand

(03:38):
each other so much is because there's a a uniqueness in each
of us that has often felt alien,I think, for a lot of the time.
But when we're around each otherand we talk to each other,
there's always this kindred knowing that this is someone who
I'm going to have in my life forever and who deeply loves me
and wants to know me. And it is an honour to know you,
Ashley. You've been through your highs

(04:01):
and your lows, which we'll get into today.
Mental health is not something that is strange or unfamiliar to
you. But there has been a moment in
your life recently, semi recently, that has brought you
into a whole new stratosphere ofmental health growth, humanity
that you never saw on the menu until it arrived.

(04:21):
And it has to do with birthing your your beautiful son Bodhi in
partnership with Mike, your husband.
So let's start there. What did you expect birth to be
like versus how it unfolded? Well, firstly, I will just say
how honoured I am to also be part of this and to, I guess

(04:43):
support you as one of my dearestfriends.
I mean, everything you've said, just I echo the same sentiment
and more in terms of having you as a bridesman on my wedding.
It just was, it was always you. It was always going to be you.
And I think you also upstaged most of my bridesmaids.
So. Oh yeah.

(05:06):
But yeah, look, that aside here,support you.
And also just so honoured to be able to talk to my story in the
hope that, you know, it reaches someone else, that resonates
with someone else, that helps someone else.
So thank you so much for having me.
I think, like, I'm actually justso excited by everything you
said because I just want to address it all at once.

(05:27):
But, you know, it just strikes me that, yeah, I think the way
you've phrased it is that this experience, this birthing
experience of my son has just set me on like a trajectory of
exploring my mental health in a way that I probably never would
have not having had Bodie. And so this has been like just a

(05:49):
really good opportunity just to collect those thoughts and
express them in a way that I feel like is true to me and true
to my story and my experience. I think before getting into it
though, what I do want to just upfront preface, is that, you
know, what I will talk to is my experience and my experience
alone. I know, you know, it's just
worth mentioning that because, you know, becoming a mum and

(06:11):
giving birth is such a universalexperience and everyone can
have, you know, such an individualised experience.
But also, you know, talking about birth and birth trauma is
can be quite triggering. So, yeah, I just wanted to sort
of say that up front that, you know, this is, this is my
experience and not necessarily the experience of other women or
the experience that other women will have, you know, So yeah, I

(06:35):
think look, just getting into chatting about, you know, my
birthing experience itself, I think it's probably necessary
for me to just touch on, you know, my journey with my mental
health in the lead up to that because it's just so the two are
so entwined. You know, as a young child, I

(06:57):
just, I don't remember a time where I wasn't anxious.
You know, I've always been anxious.
In fact, some of my earliest core memories were of me just
like chowing at my fingernails like constantly and just always
remembering feelings of just being really worried, you know?

(07:19):
And I think, you know, with the beauty of hindsight and support
from, you know, my wonderful family and my husband and my
therapist, I've sort of come to realise the significance of a
few life defining events that happened at a very young age,
which I think following those almost put me into a state of

(07:41):
like just constant fight or flight.
And I've never until now known better to move out of that state
or that space, you know, And then at adulthood, it sort of
translated into me being like a very Taipei personality, you
know, with, with just very perfectionistic as well, putting

(08:03):
a lot of pressure on myself, setting unrealistically high
standards of myself, which I wasable to sort of satiate by
structure routine lists, like controlling my world as much as
I could, you know, because that meant that I was safe in that
respect. Preparing for the birth of

(08:24):
Bodie, my son was, was really nodifferent.
I, it's funny, like my in laws laugh and they just call me the
spreadsheet lady, which I know, I know you would resonate with
me so much. But, you know, all of the
elements that there were to it in terms of preparing was

(08:47):
considered, you know, it was like tucked away nicely in a
spreadsheet that had tabs and just psychotic behaviour, you
know, but it just was the way inwhich my brain was able to
prepare. And how you felt safe.
And how I was able to, yeah, just have that control over
safety. And, you know, I listened to all

(09:07):
of the podcasts. I read all the books.
I did all of the antenatal classes.
I followed all the Instagram accounts.
I had a doula, you know, I made sure that I was educated enough
about birthing, you know, and the birthing process, especially
in Australia, which, you know, has its own gripes.

(09:31):
And I, you know, I wanted to just make sure I could advocate
for myself. I was really prepared.
But I guess in the same breath, and I'm probably going to get
some silent nods from, from listeners out there who've, you
know, been through the same experience.
It's like nothing can prepare you.
Just nothing can prepare you forwhat you experience on so many

(09:56):
levels, not even just physical. In fact, importantly, more than
just physical, you know, and I just don't think, yeah, as much
as my controlling tendencies might try, I just was in for I
was in for a ride. So just sort of talking about

(10:17):
like what I expected versus, youknow, what eventuated.
It was just, I think the word I could use, it'd be blindsided
almost, but naive. So, you know, just touching on
like the birth itself and the experience I had.
I mean, Mitch, you have known mefor a long time.
I think you would agree when I say that I can be very strong

(10:40):
willed. Very.
Yeah, that's. Your ass, yeah.
In fact, like it's probably a core pillar of my personal
brand, yeah. I would say so if you describe
ash in three words, strong wouldbe top three, if not number one
if. Not the front runner, yeah.
So like going into it, I was adamant that I was going to have

(11:01):
a natural birth, you know, and no drugs.
I was going to do it that way. And that was that.
I think in reflection and looking back on it, there was
something I had to prove to myself, which I'm able to sort
of say now kind of going back towhat I've mentioned previously
about just this perfectionistic tendency that I've held, you

(11:23):
know, this standard myself to this whole my whole life.
And I won't sort of go into it too much or digress too much
with this because it's a whole topic in and of itself.
But I think Western mainstream society has a lot to say around
how much we pressure women to feel like birthing naturally

(11:44):
with no drugs is like the way it's not.
Like a gold standard is that, isthat what it's committed press?
Says no. And I feel like, yeah, I feel
like women can be made to feel like they haven't earned the
right to say that they birth their child if they didn't do it

(12:04):
vaginally with no drugs, which Ijust think now in hindsight is,
I don't know. I've just done a full 180 on
how, yeah, how how I see it. But at the time, you know, I was
going along with that narrative and that's, that's what I was
set on doing. I sort of thought as well, like,
you know, how hard could it be? I've always been very physically

(12:26):
capable. I've had a pretty high threshold
for pain, you know, plus all of the prep that I'd done.
I kind of just was like, oh, youknow, I've got a good breathing
framework. I bought myself a birth comb.
So long as I squeeze that, you know, I'll be OK.
But it was very different from that, of course.
And I think once, you know, the contractions hit at their peak,

(12:54):
like the best way to describe it, you know, for anyone who
hasn't experienced it, is it's almost like you have a bowling
ball that you can just picture that like in your stomach,
right? And you can imagine every single
muscle and fibre in your body isrecruited to push this bowling

(13:19):
ball down, right? And that's, that's the job of a,
of a contraption is to, is to basically, essentially push your
baby down to birth. But in every other aspect of
your life, this, this is not something you, your body's used
to, especially as a first time, you know, second, third time,

(13:40):
4th time is your body. It's like muscle memory, your,
your body remembers. But as a first time, it's it's,
yeah, it's a lot. And so, you know, it's like
moving down half a centimetre each contraction.
So there's also that aspect to it.
Like it takes an inordinate amount of time, you know, So

(14:00):
just to set that stage. It's just just to pause there.
That's actually really good stage setting for someone like
me who's very naive. I'm a man, I've never had a
child. I've no idea what the experience
is like the way you described it.
Then around your whole body is about to go into recruit every
cell and muscle to push this thing out and that when you're

(14:21):
pushing it out, it's actually a much slower process than when I
think a lot of people envisage. I speaking for myself there.
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. I mean, unfortunately, you know,
the movies you only sort of see like the very end of it, you
know, where the baby comes out and, you know, like you capture
get the end of it. And yeah, it takes like for me

(14:45):
from start to finish. So from when I had my first
contraction, early labour, to when my son was born took 36
hours. Holy moly.
Yeah, it was. It was.
Yeah. And like of about half of that I
was in active labour. So that means like contractions

(15:06):
are like hard and fast and like consistent, you know, and they
are, they are literally seismic in intensity.
Like you have not some women like just vomit because their
bodies, just their nervous system is like, Oh my God.
Like you cannot it. Yeah.
It's really, really hard to describe to someone who hasn't

(15:29):
experienced. I hope, I hope I did get some
justice. But I think the point to land
here is like, for me specifically, it does, it can
feel very confusing, especially to a first time mom, because you
know, your nervous system and your body is experiencing such
intense pain that all you want to do is like run away, get away

(15:51):
from it. But of course you can't, you
know, And that therein for me was I think the essence of like
the trauma that I, I had in thatexperience for me.
And it was something I really, really struggled to comprehend
for a long time afterwards because, you know, I'd gotten to

(16:12):
a point where I actually had tapped out Like it was, it was
too hard for me to do this without an epidural.
I was desperate for an epidural.And it was around about the time
that we'd gone, we'd moved from home to, to move to the
hospital. But it just, you know, I, I
ended up having a, a baby that was very, very big.
He was, well, he was big for most and he was 5 kilos.

(16:35):
And it just, it, it was painstakingly long.
So about halfway through I just was like, I really would
appreciate some drugs. Is that what tapping out looks
like Ash? Is it that the drugs or is it
like I'm going to break emotionally?
It was, yeah. I think that's a really good

(16:55):
question. You know, like, I've not really
thought of it like that. I think it was just like just
not having anything else left inthe tank or not having any
playbook I could refer to, like,OK, we've done this before.
Like, you've got to find it. You've got to find it from
somewhere. Like it just, I'd never

(17:17):
experienced this before and I was scared and I was in pain and
I just wanted it to stop, you know?
Is it correct of me to say that was the moment where you went
from I can do this to I can't dothis?
Yeah, yeah. Very much, very much that.
Must be scary. And it does happen for most
women, the experience, you know,you have the opportunity to sort

(17:38):
of like, well, I speak, I say that in broad terms.
There is a point that comes to apoint in in, you know, a vaginal
birthing experience where a lot of women will go, no, I don't
want to do this. I'm done.
I want to walk away. I'm see you another day.
But you know, what I had wanted in that instance was less, you

(17:59):
know, I want to leave this room,but more I just wanted pain
relief to help me get through what I knew I had to get
through. But the difficulty for me was
that he was too far down. Like I could have had the the
medication, but I was sort of faced with the option of like
you have the epidural and, and ultimately what happens is that

(18:20):
epidural slows everything down, right?
Because obviously it's a neural blocker and so your body takes
it to it slows down. And so I was sort of faced at
this crossroads with two decisions where, you know, yeah,
you can have the epidural, but it will, it could add hours to

(18:41):
this process, you know. And because he was also quite
far down in my pelvis, he'd sortof like, it was more difficult
for them to have given me a, a caesarean if I had wanted that,
you know, or if he had slow, if the process had slowed down.
You know, there's a whole cascade of it of interventions.
And this was just very much thatI, you know, wanted to, I really

(19:02):
wanted to avoid having a caesarean.
That much I knew in that point of that moment was true.
I'd come too far. I'd endured too much for too
long. You know, I was like, I'm not
doing that. And so it put me into this,
like, very weird position where I just, you know, I just had to

(19:23):
go somewhere, which all women do.
And they talk about this particularly, I think
interesting enough, you know, for Mikey, my husband, who was
really, really wanting to understand how he could have
supported me in the room that day, you know, because, you
know, lots of partners feel very, very helpless watching

(19:46):
this unfold. And there's nothing they can do.
And the, you know, guiding advice to him was just to like,
keep The Cave, keep the space safe, like almost primal in a
way that there was nothing he could do.
You just got to, like, let her go there and find it and come
back. And I even get emotional

(20:08):
thinking about that because I honestly feel going to that
place was what cracked me open. In the best of ways, you know, I
can see it that way now. But it was, yeah, it was really
traumatic at that point in time because I had just, you know,
talking about someone who their whole life revolved around
control. And, you know, here I am where

(20:31):
literally the only way out was, was through.
And I just had to, I had to get through it.
Where did you go? God, it's all, it's like
simultaneously A blur, but then also like right there, you know,
like I can. Yeah, that's trauma because
you've dissociated and splintered out of that
experience in order to avoid thepain, which is where the the the

(20:54):
fragments come from afterwards that you need to clean up.
But to to the extent that language can do it justice,
where is it? Yeah, it, it just, the term I
want to use is like otherworldly.
That's the best way I could describe it.
I think the other place I went to was I went to the safety of

(21:16):
Mikey. You know how I was birthing, not
to get too graphic, but I was ona birth stool, which using
gravity helps. It's almost kind of like a
toilet, but you're sitting on a stool.
And then I had my arm over a medicine bowl and then Mikey was
on the other side and he had hadhis arm like interlocked with
mine. And I don't think I've ever held

(21:40):
a human being so tightly in my life so.
Beautiful far. Much less my husband.
And like, I think it was just, yeah, it was ultimately like
leaning into him and just absolutely surrendering myself
to what was happening and to thesafety of of him to get through
this with me was how I, that's where I went, you know, And it

(22:03):
is, it is, I think partially dueto the fact that it was quite a
traumatic experience for me, butalso like there's so much
adrenaline. And so like a cocktail and soup
of drugs going through your body, which is, you know, your
body's amazing. The female body is amazing.
Can I just say like I think we all know?
I agree with that 1000 times over.
Say that, you know, but you do go to a place where, you know,

(22:26):
the rational brain turns off andthe lizard brain comes in, you
know, to basically like your body.
A woman's body has just this innate wisdom built in.
We are animals. We are primal beings.

(22:47):
And your body, you know, if you can step out of your own mind's
way and just let your body do its job, which I, I think now in
hindsight, I struggled with because my logical brain was
just like, Oh my God, you know, push the pain away, push the
pain away. When in fact you just need to
lean into it and like let it happen, you know?

(23:08):
But just to come back to the question you asked, where did I
go? I, I don't know.
I don't know, but somewhere, noton this world, you know?
Yeah, you, you mentioned otherworldly.
Do you think it was heaven or hell?
Oh, I feel like it was almost a mix of two, actually, which, you
know, the best way I could describe it was like cracking

(23:31):
open a hole in the universe, which is what it was.
You know. I was born that day.
I was born with my son, which I know sounds really obscure and
like, you know, but I think a lot of women go through that.
You know, it is a rebirth of youas a mother.

(23:54):
But also like, there's just so much to it that, you know, you
don't just become someone's mother.
You become a whole new version of yourself, you know, And
there's so much I could talk to her about that.
Like, in terms of like the firstyear of motherhood is, is is
hard. And I mean, I'll touch on that

(24:15):
later. But yeah, it just, it was, I
think, a birthing of me that dayas well as Bodie.
Yeah. And perhaps a death of some of
you as well. Oh, absolutely.
If I think back to the life I had before becoming a mom, I am
able to honour and respect it, you know, and thank it.

(24:36):
But it's not me anymore, you know, I'm.
I'm a completely different person now.
Yeah. And so happy about that, you
know, because I think for the longest time, I described this
person that I was and I I'd had coping mechanisms that weren't

(24:57):
healthy, you know, a number of different things.
I think that I just used to justsurvive, you know, And I was
kind of like happy to just, well, at the time, live my life
the way that I had been. I was like, oh, you know, I'll
just sweep it on the rug and that's OK.
But yeah, I mean, this forced meto face and confront a lot of

(25:22):
those things. Motherhood does.
Parenthood does. You know, you have to, you
literally have to have a nervoussystem that your child can
mirror to be calm, to be happy, to be safe, you know, and that
requires you to look in the mirror and actually like to
regulate. I'm sorry, I'm probably like

(25:44):
digressing a little bit now, butyeah, it's.
Just no, you're, you're explaining it so beautifully and
you're allowing us into a, the most vulnerable moment of your
life in such a articulate way. It's, it's admirable.
And I want us to, to stay in that moment a little bit longer.
So you've, you've now hit a point where you're, you've
tapped out, you've gone to another world.

(26:07):
And the only thing that's anchoring you into some type of
safe reality is the grip of yourhusband's arm literally holding
you on a medicine ball. And you've realised that I
there's nowhere to run. I have to go through this crack
in the universe via heaven and hell to get this baby out to the
other side. Yeah.
When you say it like that, yeah,yeah.

(26:29):
And so that's what you did. You pushed.
And so how did you get to that other side?
Oh, do you know, OK, I just, I, I think back to that moment now,
like if I take myself back thereit was, it was my key.
Like the, the, the interlocking and the connection between the
two of us was just so monumental.

(26:51):
And I think so foretelling, you know, but I also had a really
good midwife, you know, I was sothankful for that because she
was in my ear and she was sort of just like telling me, just
just encouraging me. I guess she was coaching me a
little bit, which is not for everyone, but for me it really

(27:13):
helped in that moment. I think everyone in the room,
you know, being at it for about 36 hours, you know, everyone was
like, Oh my God, when is this going to end?
And I'm like, you're telling me,you know, but I had a really
good midwife and she was also there with me.
And she, I think she really helped me maximise on the
contractions towards the end andreally use them to, to get him

(27:37):
out because yeah, I was, I was really stuck in my head for most
of it. And I think towards the end I
was just like, part of me came back and was like, there's a job
to do, you know, just get it done.
And and that's, yeah, that's finally after so long, what felt

(27:59):
like forever. And even Mikey, poor Mikey was
like, you know, towards the end he's just was like, I just
couldn't even keep telling you like you're almost there because
you would almost be there and then, you know, two hours would
pass, so. Wow.
Yeah, it was. I think it was really in the end
I just made a decision. Yeah.

(28:19):
So Bodhi comes into this world along with a new version of Ash
that have has been reborn. You hold your son in your arms
and your first thought is. It was really interesting
actually for me, I didn't kind of have that.
I'm actually glad to touch on this because I didn't kind of

(28:41):
have that moment where the worldmade sense and you know, this
baby was, you know, the most amazing, wonderful oxytocin
filled thing to ever happen to me.
I didn't have that and I am cognizant of the fact that it is
something that is very much portrayed in mainstream media

(29:02):
and I think it can have the tendency to make women feel shit
if they don't experience that. It doesn't make you not worthy
of motherhood or a bad mom. But I think for me, I had just
gone through something that was so like, awesome, you know, I
wasn't able to come back down toearth that quickly.

(29:24):
And so when he actually came out, I was a bit scared of him.
I didn't know how to hold him. I didn't want to sort of touch
him. And yeah, I do.
I do want to share that because not every woman has this sort of
like, life makes sense moment when they birth their baby that
came afterwards. But I think that was also, you

(29:46):
know, something I had to really acknowledge and work through in
the aftermath of the experience that I'd had because, yeah, I
had just gone through a very traumatic experience.
So I wasn't really in the place to, you know, hold my baby.
Yeah. Wow, that must be because
because this baby has taken you to a place you'd never been and

(30:10):
and part of it was hell. And so I, I suppose it's such a
mixture of emotions when you're holding him, being like, I want
to be flooded with love, but right now I'm flooded with fear.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just, I think at the at
the time I just was because actually what ended up happening
separately, which was quite a key player in terms of what my

(30:34):
postpartum experience was. So I had had a, a second degree
tear, which most women, especially first time is, you
know, they tear. And the obstetrician that I had
had whilst bodies lying on my chest, he's stitching me up.
And yeah, I mean, you know, on top of the birthing experience

(30:58):
that I had had, unfortunately, it didn't end there.
I'd had an obstetrician who wasn't really paying attention.
And, you know, I think I birthedat a busy hospital.
There was a lot happening that day.
Not making excuses for this individual, but, you know, his

(31:18):
phone was was ringing off the hook and he wasn't really paying
attention to what he was doing. And Long story short, he ended
up stitching me up in a way thatbasically butchered me and I had
to be re stitched 3 days later. And so that's significantly
impeded on my postpartum experience, my postpartum

(31:42):
journey. So just touching on that to come
back to answering your question,the difference in emotions, it's
just, yeah, it just, it was onlysomething I was able to really
understand and process afterwards.
It just at the time it just feltnumb, just completely numb.
Dissociated, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(32:03):
So you've you've had this incredibly, as you call it,
awesome and in some ways traumatic birthing experience.
And then you're like like, that's the end of that.
And then boom, another thing straight after with the
stitching causing ramifications on your body again.
So I'm sure that this is making you feel even further unsafe.

(32:26):
Yeah, yeah. And then you, if you want to
talk to this as well, had the pelvic collapse, right?
Yeah, so I had AI also then had a prolapse after that, which
like actually happens to 50% of women.
And it look, it's, it's one of those things that, you know, I

(32:49):
don't think he's talked about enough.
And I think there's a lot of shame around it.
But, you know, ultimately where I've come with it now is you can
still live a full, happy, normal, functional life.
It is just one of those things that I think I felt sideswiped
by. But yeah, I it's funny because

(33:13):
I, the way I look at it now is almost like the universe almost
playing a bit of a sick joke on me because, you know, here I was
just almost giving myself APHD on what I was about to do.
You know, there was no stone unturned and bam, you know, just

(33:34):
when you think you're in control, Ash, you're not in
control. You're not.
The mountain was unturned. It is being honestly, I I I talk
about it sort of semi as a joke,but I, you know, I say it out
loud and I'm like, that is actually the antithesis of this
whole experience for me is like,I am not in control And
motherhood, particularly for women who have had, you know,

(33:58):
histories of anxiety, you know, on or mental health issues, they
are the ones that are most susceptible to having a really,
really hard time on the other side.
And that is something that I probably didn't give enough
credence to going into it. So, yeah, there was a number of
things that that happened and, and genuinely I, you know,

(34:21):
specifically touching on the stitching, you know, I had to
overcome feelings of blame and, you know, feeling like a victim.
That was particularly hard because it was, I could have
gone into this place of, you know, pointing a finger and you
did this. And look at what has happened as

(34:42):
a result of you, you, you, you, you.
But I had to, I had to take ownership of it, you know,
otherwise I would have crumbled.And then, of course, the
prolapse sort of sent me furtherinto a spiral.
I probably went as far down as Icould have gone, you know?
That was truly rock bottom. Truly, truly rock bottom.

(35:06):
I don't think I've ever been that low before.
And I just remember like I was diagnosed with quite severe
postpartum anxiety and depression.
And it was just, it was, it was honestly like I look back on it
now and, and I've always considered myself to be someone

(35:26):
who's like quite strong. You would know this.
You know, I think one of my archetypes is being like the
warrior woman. And even this took me down.
Like it took me down. It is, you know, postpartum
anxiety and depression is no joke.
And it's not hooked about enough.

(35:47):
It blew my mind at what I was experiencing and the fact that
like, I don't know the stats offthe top of my head, but I'm sure
it's like 3 and 10 or 4 and likejust under half.
And, you know, I just, I think there was a moment where I had

(36:08):
thought, you know, I'd had some pretty bad intrusive thoughts
and I just was like, OK, I'm going to have to like, check
myself in somewhere because thisis not sustainable.
Like, I couldn't even get, I couldn't even get out of the
ball that I'd crunched into intomy walking wardrobe because

(36:30):
that's kind of like the only place I felt safe.
And, you know, I think that was a that was a real low point from
there. But what saved me was EMDRI did
EMDR with a she's sort of like ahypnotherapist.
And I found immediate relief from from that.

(36:55):
Immediate. Like literally after the first
session. So it's really important we
touch on this because everyone so far in the journey has been
right there with you. I can tell you you're an
incredible storyteller. So whoever's 40 odd minutes into
this is very invested in in yourwell being now.
And we just and we just turned acorner.

(37:16):
So we're now looking at where tofrom here.
So you just touched on arguably the biggest influence that got
you out of this kind of trifectaof trauma that led to post Natal
depression, anxiety. And I don't know if there was a
formal diagnosis of PTSD. I did.
Yeah. I did have that, Yeah.

(37:36):
Yeah. So and then it's like, OK, where
to from here? Now, for those that don't know,
EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitisation and
Reprocessing. It's a very effective form of
therapy for trauma, particularlyepisodic trauma, less So what we
call complex or chronic trauma. Like, for example, negligence

(37:58):
where caregivers didn't love youenough and kind of, you know,
sustained year long patterns of not receiving the right amount
of of care. But if there is episodic, which
means like big events or momentssuch as the birthing experience,
such as a bomb going off, such as a car crash, EMDR is hyper,
hyper, hyper successful. And it's the the strangest thing

(38:21):
and the, and the coolest thing is, is that it's literally what
it sounds like. For those that are completely
unaware, it is moving your eyes in a particular pattern whilst
recalling a memory that does something in your brain that
reorientates the relationship you have to that memory.
So, Ash, do you want to explain from a first person's
perspective what a session like EMDR would entail?

(38:42):
Yeah, absolutely. I was sceptical going into it.
I will say the I was quite luckyto have found like a very good
therapist who I really connectedwith before actually having this
this session. But the best way I could
describe it is, yeah, exactly that.
You move your eyes from left to right and you have the guidance

(39:06):
of your therapist sort of just talking to you to recall the
event in question. So just to echo the point you
made, Mitch, yes, it's, it's it is far more effective with sort
of, you know, events less sort of longer sustained trauma.
So basically the way it was described to me is like, the

(39:27):
soonest you can do it after the event, the better, you know, But
it still works. Otherwise, it just is a matter
of time and, you know, the individual person.
But for me, yeah, it was, you know, I'd had this therapist
talking to me and she sort of said, OK, I want you to go back
to that room. I want you to take yourself back
to that experience, you know, And I want you to tell me, like,

(39:48):
what? What colour is it in?
You know, is it black and white?Is it like a teal?
Is it colour? Like, what?
Is it really, really described to me what it was?
So I was sort of going through the most vivid.
Yeah. Explaining to her, OK, it was
this and this. And she's like, OK, now I want
you to tell me, like, where is it?

(40:08):
You know, like, is it in front of you?
Is it above you? Is it behind you?
Is it to the left, Is it to the right?
So I sort of went through that and vividly kind of explaining
this experience to her and then kind of went through the throes
of all of that for a little bit.And then she said to me, OK, I
want you to in the best way thatyour brain can and don't think

(40:30):
too much on this, but I want youto minimise it, you know?
So think of it. You're in there.
You're in that moment now. I want you to sort of like
minimise it. What does your brain do?
And my brain, the best way I could describe it, was like my
brain almost took what I was living, reliving and like,

(40:51):
minimised it. Like a browser, like a wow.
What a. Great vision like a Google
browser, I'm just like clicking it.
So it went down and it was really effective for me because
after the session had finished, she said to me, OK, so how do
you how do you feel? And to be honest, I felt
incredibly confused because I was just like, hang on a SEC,

(41:15):
this event that I had affected me so greatly.
Now has all of that like magnitude of it was removed.
You know, I don't feel the same way.
And she's like, yes, because what it does is it takes, like,
the trauma out of an event and it just becomes a memory, you

(41:37):
know, that you remember your body doesn't have, like, a
visceral response to it. And honestly, three sessions of
that saved me big, big time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause I, I
could have gone a very differentway, but yeah, I, I had that.

(41:59):
And also, I would say the support of a very, you know,
amazing husband, mum, family, friends around me.
And so you know, we spoke about EMDR being a key part of like
pulling you out of the acute episode.
But I think you would agree thatthe regular therapy leading up

(42:23):
to that and after that with withyour counsellor set a baseline
and platform that enabled you tohave something to hold on to, to
navigate these waters as well, right and integrate.
Yeah, I mean, look, I'd always been someone who, look, I've
been in another therapy my wholelife.
I, I, my mum's actually a psychologist.
So, you know, going to therapy was not something I wasn't well

(42:47):
versed in. I will say, though, that again,
I think this touches on how prepared I could have been.
And I think there's a point to which therapy and all of the CBT
and all of the like, you know, tools and methods and
capabilities takes you so far. I think there's a point to which
you get to and like just primal human nature takes over and

(43:09):
nothing can prepare you for that.
You know, what I will say though, is it's interesting, you
know, because I can say all these things with hindsight, you
know, you know, now I look back on it and even if my perspective
on it does help someone, but youknow, they say the first year of

(43:30):
like, you know, parenthood is the hardest for so many reasons.
And I actually saw, you'd probably know her Mitch.
Her name is Doctor Julie Smith. She's a clinical psychologist
and she actually wrote a really good book.
Why has nobody told me this before?
I'm actually halfway through reading it.
But anyway, she had this TikTok where she, it just, she spoke

(43:52):
about women's mental health in the first year of parenthood.
And she, it resonated with me because she just, she talks
about the fact that a woman's mental health is never more
vulnerable than it is in the first year after having a baby.
And just thinking of that alone,aside from the cocktail of

(44:15):
factors that I had coming into, you know, motherhood.
And she just said like, it just,it changes everything.
It's so right. Like to break any human being
down, there's a number of thingsyou would do right?
You would inject some crazy emotion altering concoction, IE
hormones, right? You'd mess about with their

(44:37):
sleep routine. You'd mess about with then like
normal routine, you would isolate them from other people
and then also mess around with their diet.
I mean, these are all things sheactually even aliked them to,
like weapons of war, like torture tactics.

(44:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically.
And this is unfortunately like, yes, it's just a byproduct of
motherhood. You know, you can't really do
much about sleep. That's just, it comes with the
territory, but so many other things that you just are like,
Oh my God. And then on top of that, you
know, you have to deal with postpartum anxiety, postpartum

(45:19):
depression, you have to raise a child.
It is just, it's cataclysmic. It's life changing, you know,
and I think I only really understood the gravitas of that
on the other side of it. And I guess, yeah, like sort of
the best way I would describe itis I have sort of gone through
it. I'm now Bodie's almost won.

(45:41):
So I'm almost at that one year mark and through my own
experience have just literally clawed my way back.
You know that is, that is how I picture it.
Like just crawling. How?
Do you feel now, almost a year on, would you say that your
mental health is in a solid place?

(46:02):
Oh, it's interesting. You know, I would say yes.
The, the resounding short answeris yes, because what I'd sort of
mentioned before around being cracked open, there's, you know,
all of these things coming to the fold and coming to light
that I would never have had the courage to deal with or, you

(46:26):
know, be honest about to, you know, putting it that way.
So yes, has it been insanely hard?
Yeah, yes. But I am on the other side now
of recognising that like I was probably only living to half of
my potential before. The other thing I will say is

(46:47):
that I think where I'm at now isI am exploring the potential
that I do sit somewhere in the ADHD spectrum, which is actually
something that's quite common for new mums to sort of explore
further. Because high functioning as a
parent, you kind of have to be, you know, you have to move from

(47:09):
A to B very quickly. Things like, you know, changing
nappies, putting to bed, like there's so much more that you
take on. I think that you can just mask
by saying, oh, I'm just high functioning.
But ultimately for me, it's ended up becoming a
hyperactivity that I just is a consistent doing for me in a

(47:31):
way. So to answer your question, you
know, is it better? Yeah, it's on a new trajectory
where I feel like I know myself better.
I'm inquisitive. Like I want to keep learning.
I want to keep just being the best person that I can be on
this journey. But I will also say that it's
not like it's just new challenges.

(47:52):
I just have a different perspective on it.
Do you? This is a strange question to
ask. It could even be seen as
ignorant or rude. But I know that you'll know
where I'm coming from. Was all this worth it?
100%, yeah. 100% yeah, hundred. 100% I I 100% see it as the

(48:18):
biggest blessing I could have had, you know?
Yeah. And.
Killed me to get me there, you know, there's nothing I can't
do. There's nothing I cannot do now.
Yeah, wow, that's that's powerful.
And, and I imagine that the lovefor Bodie has now kicked in.

(48:41):
Oh, yeah, it took, it took a while.
I think probably only when he was like 9 or 10 months old did
I really lean into motherhood and be like, OK, you know, I'm
OK here. I can do this.
Like I I actually enjoyed this. But for me and for so many other
mothers, it's like a full like you, just you, you the first few

(49:03):
months are just getting used to your life being turned upside
down. Yeah.
But yes, I would do it 100 timesover to get the the wonderful,
beautiful, precious child that Ihave, which is actually funny
because Mikey and I now are like.
Let's go again. Let's spin the Ferris wheel.

(49:26):
Oh. My God, I'm like, you know,
first first couple of months outthe door, I was like, I'm never
you're doing this. And I know so many mums who are
listening to this right now would be like, I've been there.
The funny enough, like the way that we're built.
We we'd have to be, you know, your body naturally.

(49:47):
After a while you forget and you're like, oh, oh, they were
so cute and oh, I love that first, you know, initial newborn
stage. So I'm getting more I'm, I'm
coming more around to the idea, let's put it that way.
Yeah, well, I mean, it's so, it's so unworldly, the love that
a parent has for their child. Like it's, it's something that,

(50:10):
you know, people say you truly need to become a parent in order
to understand it. And I, I hope that I get that
one day because yeah, it's, it'sthe way it's described and the
way that you've described to go to hell and back for something
or someone you wouldn't do unless it was your own, your own
gin. So that's so beautiful and what

(50:31):
I, what I've noticed in you as your friend, you know who you
were, who you are now you, you've softened a lot.
And I don't know if if you wouldsee that as a compliment because
I mean it that way. The strength is your asset and
you'll never get that. Not as part of your personality,
as one of the things that makes you, you and so lovable and so

(50:52):
magnetic. However, there is a softening,
like there's a circularness, there's a feminine energy that
is pulsating through you, which you know, you've usually been in
your masculine and, and I think that might have something
culturally influenced as well. So for those that don't know,
Ash is a South African from a South African family, which I

(51:16):
think does play a part in this right, particularly as it
relates to a. Whole other podcast.
Yeah, yeah. Like the, the strength, how your
parents were raised, therefore how you were raised, like the,
it's a bloody tough culture, oneof the toughest in, in the world
And, and, and very, you know, masculine from an energetic

(51:36):
sense. And, and I think that there's a
blossoming of your feminine which you're getting to know.
Would you agree with that? Yeah, it's really funny that you
say that, and I'm surprised, butthen also not surprised 'cause
I'm like, I forget how long we've known each other.
Yeah. And it's also probably because
I'm wearing pink today, which isnot something I would normally

(51:57):
do. I mean, I don't know if.
Getting in your girly era. I am wearing a pink jumper.
Normally it's black. I just have a wardrobe of black.
But yes, absolutely, absolutely.I mean, I think the old me, this
sort of strong warrior woman, I think I've mentioned before that
was the archetype I would use todescribe myself.

(52:20):
And she's still there. But the warrior woman was
broken. Part of the warrior woman died
in that ego death on the other side, like the the old side.
And I think there's something tobe said like when you become a
mum, you also become incredibly vulnerable, you know, for all

(52:41):
the reasons I've mentioned around, you know, torture
tactics. And then you really have to lean
on the people around you, I think, to hold you up and to
support you. And that wasn't something that I
was like just natural to me. I was always very much, you
know, raised by strong women. I'm.

(53:03):
Going. To do it for myself, if I want
to buy something, I buy it for myself.
I'd stand on my own 2 feet. I didn't need anyone.
But the vulnerability that came with becoming a mum.
Yeah. Softened me.
That's one thing. I think the other thing that
softened me is just the fact that, like, I have this small,
beautiful little innocent, joyous sunshine of a person who

(53:27):
just makes me the softest version of myself, you know?
And sometimes I find myself withhim and I'm like, who are you?
You've lost your edge, man. And you?
Found my edge. Yeah.
How are you? And it's interesting, you know,

(53:48):
because I have reflected on the fact that my mum did this by and
large herself. She was a single mum of three
children under 6 for a period oftime.
And I just, I have got to take my hat off to the single moms
out there. Can we just take a moment like,

(54:11):
Oh my God, this is the hardest job in the world and I've had
the most amazing support network.
I just want to make all of thosesingle moms feel so sane and
heard and validated because thisis so tough, you know?
And I just want to send all of the love and light.

(54:32):
Yeah, and and not to to shift the focus, but shout out to my
mum that raised me as a single mum as well from 2:00 to 12:00.
And look at how you've turned out.
Yeah, not too bad. I mean, you're rough around the
edges. Speaking edges.
But but we get through. Yeah.
So shout out to the single mums.Wholeheartedly agree.

(54:52):
Yeah, yeah. So, so to, to kind of, I mean,
we, we've covered, we've covereda lot and it's, it's been one of
the most fulfilling conversations I've ever had on a
podcast by 100 X Like you're, you're, you're a dream
storyteller. Just to kind of go rapid fire

(55:15):
to, to, to feel like there's a closing of, of during this and
that there's a way forward. What do you wish more people
knew about trauma of of birthinga child in recovery?
Oh my God, I could spend hours responding to this, but I think
I'm just going to try and just be really in the fields of, you

(55:37):
know, how would I, what would I want other women to know?
And it's so multifaceted is the answer to that question.
However, from my own personal experience, I think probably

(55:57):
what I said at the beginning of this session is like society,
especially Western society, has a lot to answer for in birth
trauma. And what do I mean by that?
There's a few examples. I'll give a lot of the media
that we consume as mums or, you know, becoming new mums, you

(56:19):
know, preparing for the birth ofour baby is around.
It's very much baby centric and there's so little around like
the well being of of, of mums. And you know, I think for me
specifically going into it, I just, I'd seen a lot of content
that glorified and glamorised birth and not so much around,

(56:42):
you know, the rawness, the realness of it.
And I just was very much blindsided by that.
I think, I think also my experience of what happened
afterwards, the obstetric, it's,it's obstetric violence is what
it's actually termed to be. I know that's quite heavy
hitting, but it is actually whatit's called.

(57:03):
And there is a lot that's happening in the birthing trauma
space in Australia at the momentaround birth trauma and, you
know. Negligence.
Yeah, negligence, how I think aswell, the birthing experience
for women has become so over medicalized.

(57:25):
You know, it wasn't the case that I'd had, but I think we've
lost the essence of, you know, what it means to birth.
And I think we've also lost, specifically in the medical
system, like, trust in a woman'sbody to know what to do.
I've probably digressed a bit here.

(57:46):
But like, I think the essence ofwhat I'm trying to say is I
first and foremost would love for us to get to a place as a
society where we are more comfortable and willing and open
to talk to women about what they're going to face, what
they're going into. You know, I think we sugarcoat
it a lot because we want, you know, we don't want to taint

(58:08):
someone else's experience. And I think that there's an
extent to which that is valid. But we've lost this like kinship
of like womanhood where it's like, listen, babe, this is
going to tear. Like you are going to be reborn
in the room that day. You are.
This is going to tear you apart in all of the senses, but bring
you back together. Like I just never had someone be

(58:32):
that real with me beforehand. And I understand why, but I
think we've sort of lost that old womanhood wisdom, you know,
that was sort of like passed down and it's sort of become
more over sensationalised and scrolling in in nature.
Like we, yeah, we've lost that human connection of it.

(58:54):
And sorry, I think I've waffled.You've, you've, you've done a
great job of answering that. And I think it's a good segue to
what I what I want to hear from you next, which is not just what
we want people to know about birthing trauma and recovery,
which I think has been a wealth of information during this
episode for sure. Because this is essentially

(59:15):
doing what you wish you knew more of, which was the honest
truth around what can happen, Not to scare people off it, but
in fact, to do the opposite, to make more safety before you go
in by facing what could be true.So that it's not a surprise.
Because when it's when it's not so much of a surprise or perhaps
feel so foreign, maybe when it comes, you can surrender with

(59:37):
peace as opposed to, you know, being torn down to surrender.
I know, I understand. Like it's obviously a hard
balance to walk because like if you had asked me, would I have
done this? Would I have done it knowing
going into it? I mean, you could, you could
flip it on that side. So it's like walking that fine

(59:58):
balance between awareness of what you're going into versus
maybe just leaving it a bit to what unfolds and what happens,
you know? I do think personally for me, I
probably would have liked to have involved myself or have
surrounded myself with content or circles that talked more to

(01:00:22):
sort of like the spiritual element of it, you know, in the
room that day, The, the, the mental element, the all
consuming awesome aspect to it. And maybe that's because I'm a
deep person, you know, and I, I derive meaning and there's so
much that I have taken away fromit in terms of how I identify

(01:00:43):
myself after that. I think it would just the
gravitas to it wasn't, you know,it, it was sort of explained to
me or the way that I had understood it going to it was
very, very much a physical thing.
And yes, yes, there is that, butit is cataclysmically shifting
of your identity in nature and that I was not prepared for.

(01:01:05):
And what would you want people to understand more about mental
health, not just birth and trauma?
OK. I will answer it specifically in
relation to, but like after birth, because that's obviously
relevant to my experience. But I would say what I had
touched on before is where, you know, Doctor Julie Smith

(01:01:30):
mentioned one of the factors that you could do to break
someone down is isolate them from other people.
And then again, touching on the fact that I'd mentioned no time
in a woman's life is she more vulnerable than a year after
giving birth. Those two things just to me
equate to actively seeking community because this becoming

(01:01:54):
a mother is such a universal experience.
And so many women experience postpartum anxiety and
depression. And at the time, you know,
you're at home, you're isolated,sort of feeding your baby,
putting your baby to bed, changing your baby's nappies.
And like, you don't, there's notthe village anymore.
You know, we're not running around kind of carrying each

(01:02:17):
other's babies on our backs and like constantly communing and
like being together and learningand just growing.
It's like here is the most life changing thing that you could do
now go and do it by yourself, you know.
And so I would just say to that is go and find the mother's

(01:02:39):
groups. Go and find other mums who cause
believe me when I say we all getit.
There's a, there's like an unspoken knowing, you know, I
would give anything to go and help my neighbour next door
who's struggling with her kids, 'cause I know what it's like
seeking community, you know, reaching out, finding if you

(01:03:01):
can't physically go to a mother's group, find a Facebook
group. You know, that was something
that really helped me too when Iwas at home having to like, you
know, be a human cow. It's like scrolling through and
it's like, Oh my God, I feel so alone in this thought or this,
this experience, because literally it becoming a mother

(01:03:23):
changes your brain. You become I felt crazy, but now
I understand just chemically different and so don't
experience don't don't think that that's normal.
If it's scary, you know, like reach out, find community
because so many other women go through the same thing.
What did you learn about love and romance that you know how?

(01:03:46):
How do you look at your partner mic different now?
Oh. Look, when he's not giving me
the shit, it's such, it's actually a really good question
because obviously he's been suchan integral support pillar in
this process. I guess after he was in the room

(01:04:07):
with me that day, it was almost like we'd walked out of there.
Just there was this like quiet knowing between us where we're
like, we just went through something, you know, like that
was that was crazy. I think it both of us had just
this deep, deep, deep respect for each other for getting

(01:04:31):
through that, you know, in termsof like specifically love and
and romance. I wouldn't use those words of
what it was like between us. I think in the last year, it's
been tough. It's been rough between us.
I think just trying to adapt, adjust to new life, you know,

(01:04:53):
with a child whilst also trying to have our own careers and work
on our own self development. But I think what I've learnt is
first and foremost for him, there's no one I would rather do
this with. But then equally, you know, I
think about it and I'm like really think about the person

(01:05:15):
that you end up doing this with,you know, if you can, because
this is hard. This is hard, really, really
hard. And if you do not have that
rock, if you do not have that person ride or die next to you,
who's just going to like literally weather that
contractions storm with you, It's it's not not doable.

(01:05:39):
Again, the shout out to the single moms, but it's it's
harder for sure. But I would then also say in and
amongst all of the chaos of, youknow, parenthood and surviving
with your partner, it is really,really important that you don't
lose each other. So there are conscious moments

(01:06:01):
of gratitude or love or romance or, you know, even if it's just
the small things. I think we do oftentimes, like,
I'm too tired, I don't have time.
But it is the small things, I guess, to just let them know
like, hey, it's still you and like I, it's still you and me,
you know, because it can become very much then like ships in the

(01:06:23):
night or like you're just these cranky roommates who are just
raising the third roommate, you know?
A hungry, milk loving third roommate that doesn't pay rent.
Oh. My God.
And isn't Bodie that we call himBaby Thor?
That's the other thing looking back on it as well, which I
just, you can have this one for free.
He is 15 kilos and he's not even.

(01:06:48):
Going to be a front row wallaby for sure.
That is just for everyone's awareness, like tracking the
size of a 2 year old. And there's also a heart of me
that looks back on my experienceand I'm like, I am.
I'm literally Lagatha from. Hell yeah.
Like, yeah, you asked me would I'd do it again?

(01:07:12):
Probably not, but it was all worth it.
You know, like I can wear that I'll like.
Wear that watching that's so good.
And like, you know, I think thatthe I imagine as as an outsider
watching in honour of, of what you've done, But also like I, I
can vouch for Mikey. I know him personally.

(01:07:34):
He's he's one of the greatest humans alive.
I've I've rarely met someone who's as as positive and as kind
and as upbeat. Like you look at him and you
just fucking smile. He's one.
Of those people. And Bodie, just seeing him
before on camera is the same. Like he's such a happy kid.
I, I waved at him, he's smiling,waving back, fully engaged.
Like, you know, he, he, he's gotMikey's spirit, which is great,

(01:07:58):
as well as yours. And I would say, like, how, how
do you not, you know, that moment of where you're
interlocked, you know, in that room and you just had each
other's back at a transcendent level.
And there's a respect that feelsgodly.
How do you tap into that at 4:00PM on a Tuesday when you're just
both like, oh, I stopped fuckingchewing so loudly.

(01:08:19):
Like, how do you come back to that?
It is honestly such a good question and I feel like the one
that he and I continue to work through every day, it's an
everyday thing. Is is the answer to that.
It's like we use this thing where it's like OK for

(01:08:43):
parenting, for work, for marriage, for just general life.
Like where are you at capacity percentage wise?
Yeah. How much out of 100 have you
got? Yeah.
Yeah, we check in with each other and it's like, OK, if he
says to me, oh, you know, I'm at2%, then I'm probably not gonna
give him shit for not putting his spoon in the dishwasher, you

(01:09:06):
know? But as much as you wanna.
As much as like inside of me, I'm rearing to like, let him
have it. But no, I mean.
Yeah, you. Probably like wonder.
Sometimes I wonder why he married me.
I know you're talking before you're like, oh, you know, and

(01:09:27):
Bodhi has his energy and his spirit and then and then yours.
And I'm like, let's be honest, Ijust provided the womb and I'm
OK with that, OK. No way, no way.
That's not true affair at all. He will have your strength and
your humour and your intelligence.
Fuck your ability to to process complex things.

(01:09:50):
But you know, a lot of your yourgreatest gifts I think will come
with age for Bodhi, whereas I think you're Mikey.
It has that child like. I know it's a little.
So it's easier to see Mikey's childlike spirit in someone who
who is a child you know? Agree.
No, I agree and look appreciate you saying it like that because
yeah, I mean that was also one of the reasons why I love him

(01:10:13):
and I married him is because of that childlike energy.
And I think actually nicely segwaying back into the
answering your question, that isalso something that we try to
continue to remember to like inject to get us back to that
essence that got us through thisexperience in the room.

(01:10:34):
That day was like just remembering why we married each
other to, you know, weather thisstorm and to inject play and to
remember, you know, that there was life before this like of he
and I. On a more practical level,

(01:10:55):
though, we do use that tool of like just checking in with each
other and going like, where are you at?
You know, mentally, it's interesting.
I I'm not sure whether I want this to happen or I never want
it to happen, but I don't know we would ever get to that level
that we did in the room that day.
You know, it feels almost like holy in a way, you know?

(01:11:18):
Is it something that you could have a slice of every now and
again or just like open the doorto?
Is there a practise? Yeah.
I mean, I'd be open to it for sure, I think.
Just to remember. I think he and I do that
actually quite well through likewe're we're very aligned in our
faith. We're quite spiritual people,
both of us in our own ways and together.

(01:11:40):
So yeah, to answer your question, that would be the way
I think that I would do it. And we, you know, we do, we do
reminisce every now and then. We do talk about it, not in
huge, you know, long sessions because I think we've done that
enough. But there are times where we go

(01:12:00):
like, how about like where we went together in that time, in
that space. And yeah, I think through
spirituality and our shared values in that we, we do get
that slice. Yeah.
Well, it's been an honour to to hold space for you.
Is there anything that you feel like you want to to share or

(01:12:23):
close off with given what we've covered?
Yeah, I think it's easy for me to say this.
I think now because of I'm on the other side of of all of
this. But I just would say I guess to
probably more the women out there because obviously this
subject matter is relevant more so for them, but also partners

(01:12:44):
and fathers. And what about but, you know,
just it is such a universal experience, like giving birth,
you know, half the population doit.
And I feel like because of that,it's lost it's gravitas.
I've used that word a few times,but it make no mistake, like,

(01:13:07):
you know, growing and birthing ahuman being is magic, you know,
and just don't ever underestimate that.
You know, you have as a woman this you have a key to the

(01:13:28):
universe, you know, and I just think that it's important to
honour that and just remember this ancient wisdom that your
body has and to trust in it and be guided by it.
You know, it's so easy to be in your head, which is where I live
most of my life and have. But becoming a mom has really

(01:13:50):
taught me to trust in my body and have a, you know, a much
more of a appreciation for it. And I know that's a slightly
different topic from what we've sort of spent the time
discussing now, but yeah, women are amazing really.
And just know that. And equally, there is a shared
kinship among us all around motherhood.

(01:14:11):
And so I would just really encourage all women to see
themselves in that and, and, andreach out.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, mothers and non mothers
alike. But the the female energy and
the female spirit is such a powerful, amazing, godly thing.
And I, I do agree that it appears that your energy is is

(01:14:33):
close to the divine and it's an honour to just personally be
grateful for having such amazingwomen in my life, yourself
included, Ash. And you've done an amazing job
at articulating what you've beenthrough today and helping others
feel less alone and feel more understood.
So my infinite appreciation for you, my friend.

(01:14:55):
Thank you so much for having me.This has been amazing and I
think as just a last note from me, you had said something
earlier on in this session around the fact that you, you
know, hope to become a dad yourself one day and I honestly
feel like something would be wrong with the world if that
didn't happen. So I know it will have.

(01:15:16):
A special compliment. Yeah, I feel like you know you.
Yeah. I don't even need to talk to it,
but. Shout out to the ladies, Yeah,
shout out to the mum out there. Budding women out there who just
want the full package. Mitchell, Mark Wallace, get into

(01:15:36):
his DMS. Now you know my middle name.
Oh my Lord, everyone will. Everyone will know how to hack
into my Commonwealth Bank. Hey, Ash, what if people want to
like, I mean continue on whilst respecting your boundaries and
privacy? Is that something that you want
to do or you want to leave it here?
I'm. So.
Mal Instagram, you're not Instagram anymore.

(01:15:59):
Social media girly, unfortunately, because I think
yeah. Which is healthy.
Yes, me. But I do have a Gmail address
which I am so happy to be reached on.
I mean, Mitch, I'll give you that information and yeah, I'll
put in the. Show.
You know, want to have a conversation or, you know, reach

(01:16:22):
out? I'm.
I'm so happy. I'm so open to that.
Yeah. Cool.
That's great. All right.
Actually, well, we'll leave it here for now and, and thank you
again. Thank you so much to to you.
I love and adore you my friend and to everyone that's that's
listening, thanks for taking thetime to hear my story.
Much love. My emotions have a natural
tendency to dissipate unless they get reinforced, and so if

(01:16:44):
there's more thoughts, more stories, more intentions come
along. So the act of how am I leaving
it alone? It is an act of not act.
Adding more stories, adding fuelto it.
So it might not go away in 2 minutes, but it then begins to
relax and dissipate. And so rather than being the
person who has to fix it, we've become the person who makes
space for the heart, the mind, to relax and settle away itself.