November 30, 2023 • 60 mins
Sonny Jane is a multi-neurodivergent, queer, and disabled public speaker, advocate, and author with a strong social media presence. Sonny was diagnosed as a child and grew up only hearing a deficit narrative about their neurodivergence. Since then, they have gone on to build an audience of over 100,000 people online, have written ‘The Neurodivergent Friendly Workbook of DBT Skills’, and works with organisations all over Australia to help change the narrative around neurodivergence. Sonny is a brilliant educator and all-round wonderful human.
The episode covers...
- Sonny's journey to self and being exposed to psychiatric care as young as 4
- the difference between mental health disorders and neurodivergence
- breaking down ADHD, autism, and mental illness - are labels helpful or harmful?
- why suddenly everybody seems to be getting a late ADHD diagnosis
- the most powerful skill you can harness when you don't understand or agree
You can connect with Sonny here:
www.instagram.com/livedexperienceeducator
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
It doesn't matter if other people don't understand, you
know, how my brain works or who I am.
It doesn't even matter if they don't agree for whatever reason.
But that unconditional acceptance, that unconditional
support is so important, I thinkthat's so powerful.
(00:23):
We're on it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word Idi KICKING break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:43):
us, inside us. I've been very interested in
this problem for a long, long time.
Something settles. Today's guest is Sunny Jane, a
multi neurodivergent, queer and disabled public speaker advocate
(01:05):
and author with a strong social media presence.
They are also the Co Chair of the National Autism Strategy
Social Inclusion Working Group. Sunny was diagnosed as a child
and grew up only hearing a deficit narrative around their
neurodivergent. Since then, they've gone on to
build an audience. Of over 100,000 people Online
(01:27):
have written the Neurodivergent Friendly Workbook of DBT Skills
have worked with organisations and services around Australia to
help change the narrative aroundNeurodivergent and create the
first drop in centre. In Adelaide CBD to provide a
safe space for people who identify as LGBTQ, IA plus
(01:50):
disabled or neurodivergent. I thought just before we dive
into the episode it would be good to clarify some terms
because there was a bunch that Ididn't even know.
So neurodiversity refers to the diversity of all human minds and
the unique ways that they can exist, think, act, process and
feel. It's a fundamental truth that we
(02:12):
are diverse in our minds. Just like we're diverse in our
ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc, neurodivergent is an
umbrella term to describe an individual whose mind or
functioning diverges from dominant societal norms,
standards, or expectations, including learning, processing,
interpreting, feeling, behaving,etc.
(02:32):
Neurodivergent can be acquired or genetic, A fundamental part
of your identity or not. Neurotypical is a term to
describe an individual whose functioning falls within the
domain of societal norms. Neurotypical is the opposite of
neurodivergent. Neurodiverse is a term to
describe a group or population of people who have different
(02:54):
minds or brains compared to eachother and neuro normative or
neuro normativity is a set of standards, expectations and
norms that centre certain ways of functioning as the superior
and right way. Now the reason these terms are
important is because the majority of Sunny and Eyes
conversation was focused on how.Bad is often different, and
(03:20):
different is often bad. But what?
Who set the baseline and is thatright?
And I think regardless of whether you identify as
neurodivergent as. Transgender.
Sis normative or any of these terms?
We had a really good discussion around the existential nature of
(03:41):
how we label things. When is it helpful and not
helpful? And really de stigmatising
different. I really enjoyed our discussion.
Sunny is incredibly intelligent and had a lot of unique
viewpoints. I hope you enjoyed as much as I
did. So without further ado, here's
Sunny. OK, Sunny, we started this last
(04:07):
episode with the question that our listeners found helpful.
So I wanna ask it again because I think it's quite a nice jump
off point to an interview like this.
And that is, what is an opinion that you have that's probably
controversial? The more controversial, the
better about mental health that you wholeheartedly believe.
(04:32):
Oh oh crap. Oh damn.
OHP that's Well, I'm not gonna share my most controversial
opinion because I don't think many people are ready for that.
But I think some mental health conditions, some might mental
health diagnosis, are not inherently distressing or
(04:59):
dangerous or harmful. There are many mental health
diagnosis that don't actually need to be fixed or treated or
cured. Hmm.
Yeah. I think that's a really
important point is that the moment we say mental health, I
think we assume that something'swrong.
But a lot of times it could justmean different.
(05:21):
And different doesn't necessarily mean better or
worse, It just means atypical tothe norm.
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
So do you remember the first time that you felt different?
I was in kindergarten, so I would have been about four years
old, but that's when I was introduced to the psychiatric
(05:45):
system, when I started seeing psychiatrists and started seeing
doctors and they were all telling me that there was
something wrong with me. So I think you know a lot of it,
I guess for me personally, in kindergarten, I do remember
feeling so different to the other kids around me, and that
was reflected in how they treated me.
(06:09):
So yeah, I was very young when Ifirst felt different.
Yeah, I can imagine that would be very overwhelming and
probably disorientating given that you were that young and you
were trying to make sense of theworld and the world is telling
you that something's not going how it's quote unquote supposed
(06:29):
to. Is there any particular thing
that a psychiatrist or medical professional did or said that
really sticks in your mind around that age of?
Being somewhat harming or triggering back then, I think
one of the most harmful things that a psychiatrist did to me or
(06:50):
said about me was they said I was a narcissist.
And this was when I was about six years old, and I remember
being six years old. I actually called it naughty ISM
because one, I couldn't pronounce narcissism, and two, I
didn't actually understand what that meant.
So I thought, you know, they were just calling me naughty.
(07:14):
Um, sorry I couldn't naughty ISM.
And I think, you know, being labelled with that term so young
is but one, baffling and two, you know, obviously they didn't
mean it in a positive way. So it, you know, led to me
making believing certain things about me that weren't true and
(07:36):
were stigmatising. And I know that ended up
building up to be quite a heavy burden to hold because, correct
me if I'm wrong, at the age of 11 you attempted an overdose.
Is that correct? Yes, yes, I was.
I started trialling different psychiatric medication when I
(07:56):
was about 7 years old. And then between the ages of
seven and 10, you know, we were trying to find the right
medication. And then when I was about 10
years old, they found the right medication.
And when I was 11, in year six Ibelieve, or year five, I decided
to take more than I was meant tobecause I thought it would, you
(08:21):
know, make me better, quicker because that's what medication
was. You know, that's how medication
was communicated to me, that themedication was there to fix me.
It was there to make me better. So you know, in the logic of a
kid, taking more means you get better, quicker.
I can see how you make that linkfor sure, yeah.
(08:44):
Was there any part of you at that age that wanted to die?
Oh, absolutely, 100%. Which is why I'm following that
first overdose. I had numerous attempts.
I'd say yearly, if not more thanyearly for the next 10 years.
(09:06):
Wow. That's.
I mean, I don't know. If you haven't been there, it's
really hard to get in the mind of someone who's scraping by
like that. I mean, to some extent I can
relate to your story, even though it had.
You know a different manifestation.
I do know what it's like to go day by day and wonder.
(09:28):
If the last ones coming. Because you just get so
exhausted. Is that how you felt?
Definitely. I think, you know, it's
exhausting living every day, notwanting to exist, living
everyday as if believing you don't deserve to be alive.
(09:50):
And obviously, you know, now I'mnot suicidal, so sometimes I
like to. I do think back on those days,
and I can't imagine, you know, my entire life revolved around
me not wanting to exist. You know, the world being too
much does believing that I deserve to not be alive.
(10:12):
And so to put myself in that frame, set that that mindset I
used to have is hard even for mebecause it is so dark and
different to you know how we should be thinking and feeling.
I'm so happy to hear you say that you know that that it feels
(10:33):
so foreign. And the degree to which it feels
foreign is a really good indicator of how far we've come.
And you and I both know that it's an ongoing management
thing. But if there's still a sense of
foreignness to that darkness, itmeans that we've grown a lot.
And I'm interested to hear Sunny, what what exactly were
(10:57):
they medicating you for? I'm sorry?
They were medicating me for ADHD.
They were medicating me for autism, and they were medicating
me for our Tourettes. But more specifically, they and
well, they're also medicating meas a teenager for the depression
and, you know, self harm. But specifically for my, I guess
(11:21):
what they used to call my outbursts.
Apparently I had very poor behaviour and you know, I was
naughty and had a lot of meltdowns or in their eyes
outbursts and tantrums and they were medicating me for ticks and
stimming and basically they wanted me to be more well
(11:46):
behaved because my mum found it really hard to manage me and
everything. As you would lead up to one of
these, what other people would call meltdowns are outbursts.
What are some of the feelings that or what are some of the
thoughts that were going on inside you that were felt like a
volcano? Oh, oh, that's that's a hard one
(12:12):
because I think because even nowI'm, I still get the occasional
meltdown, you know, that is a part of being autistic.
But back then, so meltdowns often it doesn't feel like there
are coherent thoughts. It's more like an avalanche, a a
volcano of like intense frustration and anger and
(12:39):
overwhelm and everything is justrising up and it gets too much
that, you know, I wouldn't even be thinking actual thoughts.
I'd just be feeling. Hmm, that's interesting.
I wouldn't be thinking actual thoughts.
I'd be feeling. And I think it sounds like the
feeling wasn't anything in particular.
(13:00):
It was this immense sense of unease and, as you say,
incoherence. And do you know if the feeling
was directed more toward yourself?
Like, did you get angry and frustrated and volcanic at your
own experience? I wish I wasn't like this.
Or was it more at the world and externally?
Why don't they get it? Why are they making me feel like
(13:22):
this? Which way was the finger
pointing? Both.
Sometimes it was towards me and I think often sorry as a
teenager. The feel those meltdowns, those
volcanoes towards myself manifested in self harm and
cutting up my clothes. Whereas the meltdowns, the
(13:44):
feelings that were direct were more responses to outside
things. They manifested more externally.
I would say so. I used to be the type of person
where if I had a meltdown, I'd be put in my room and then I'd
kind of thrash everything. I would, you know, knock my
(14:05):
bookcases to the ground. I'll throw things at the wall.
I would break everything. And those, you know, those
meltdowns, I think, you know, those volcanoes were very
terrifying to people around me. And that's what, you know, they
really wanted to try to stop. But The thing is, those moments
(14:26):
were a response to something that had happened and and so you
know, they were really targetingthe wrong thing.
They were trying to put a band aid over something instead of
like fixing the actual issue. You sound like someone who's
done a lot of work, not just obviously in therapy and on
yourself, but you're quite educated in this space because
(14:48):
you are being able to partition cause and effect and things like
that. And that kind of leads me to
there's obviously this. Pain thread that's run up until
a certain age and then somethinghas started to happen that has
got you to where you are now. This incredibly coherent person
who is speaking and authoring and changing the world and
(15:13):
living what I can see is your authentic self.
Can you talk me through what agethat that tide started to turn
and and what were the helpful factors?
Honestly, the tide didn't start turning till 2019.
It was a very key year in the tide shifting because you aren't
(15:36):
right, that pain threat. I think it's a very kind of a
really good way to put it because it was like there was
this thread and that thread was snipped in 2019.
It started fraying at the edges.I guess there were multiple
factors. A big part of it was a huge
(15:59):
shift in the way that I thought about things.
Um, And a lot of that was being introduced to the concept of
neurodiversity and neurodivergent once because up
until that day, you know, I did see, I did, you know, I view I
had a, I had a, I had a stigmatising understanding of
(16:21):
autism and ADHD, but also mentalhealth conditions and mental
health in general. And I had a lot of blame on
myself. You know, I genuinely believed,
oh, OK it's I'm the issue. You know, it's what's that?
Taylor Swift lyric, It's me. Hi.
I'm the problem. It's me that, you know, was
(16:42):
literally my life. So reframing that thinking was a
huge part of it. And in saying that, I didn't
reframe my thinking until obviously did a lot of trauma
healing but also had access to community.
So I started learning from the right people.
I started learning from lived experience and then as well
(17:08):
developing actual good friendships and relationships.
Up until then, I didn't really have any close friends.
And the friends that I did have temporarily were not good.
They weren't, you know, good friendships.
And then they didn't have any healthy relationships either.
And so, you know, in 2019, that's when I started having
(17:32):
solid relationships, solid friendships.
I had a good home environment where I had access to support
and accommodations. I stopped working part time.
I have a feeling that was a hugepart of it.
Um, So, yeah. Community relationships,
(17:52):
friendships, reframing, my thinking, access to support and
accommodations, yeah. Yeah.
OK. So I'm gonna play that back if
that's OK, because I think this is, there's a couple of really
important things you said there and it ties into a philosophy
that I hold very dearly. I talk on stage about is the
(18:13):
pretty much the Thesis and Epicentre to my books.
Is it too simple to summarise the step, the first step that
you were referring to, which is that I started to let go of my
own stigma as I started to move out of shame?
(18:34):
Or does that feel right? That feels very right.
I thought so, and in my experience, I've never seen
someone properly heal. And I mean he'll like actually
get better former solid foundation under their feet,
start to experience joy, stable relationships and productive
(18:57):
work etcetera. Until.
They have. Found an ability to sit with
what is true or set another way.Have gone beyond just being
stuck in that shame membrane that surrounds pain and they've
(19:17):
dropped the brave face and allowed themselves to move into
who they are. And you know, otherwise it's
just coping like so many tools, like the exercise and the even
medication and accommodations. I don't think any of those
tactics stick until you have gone beyond.
Game because your biology, your psyche is not ready for for that
(19:39):
to receive and be fertile until the fertiliser of an open mind
and a shameless mind to receive it.
And I'm so glad. That those conditions happen for
you, whether that be through social education, around
neurodivergent, see whether it'sthrough people that came into
(20:03):
your life in 2019, whatever happened.
Led you to accepting who Sonny is, and that sounds like the
catalyst for everything else to start to thread in in a in a
growth thread, not a pain thread, right?
Absolutely. Yeah.
No, I completely agree. I think unpacking and getting
rid of shame is a key part of everyone's journey.
(20:26):
I don't think we can genuinely have a positive self identity or
you know, a positive self esteemor acceptance of ourselves
without. Unpacking shame.
Amen. Amen.
And then you you draw me to a second point that I share an
extremely similar viewpoint in both my lived experience and my
(20:47):
psychological research is after shames gone, the single best
tactical intervention you can use to get better is building
the right type of relationships around you.
Like connection is the greatest factor to our mental health
outside of genetics and biology and our attachment style, our
(21:09):
boundaries. All that stuff is the influence,
It's the sensitive variable. And I don't think people truly
get that The Who they have in their life and the way that
they're interacting with them iscompounding on the way that you
feel. Yeah, no 100%.
I believe like a community and access to community and like
(21:31):
relationships is. Is so crucial and we, you know,
we we live in a very individualistic society and so
we really do underestimate the importance and power of having
good relationships and good community.
Yes. And do you think that with
(21:55):
regard to relationships and connection, DBT has been an
important skill for you? Yeah, absolutely.
Obviously I've I've read workbook on DBT, so it would be
a little hypocritical of me if Ididn't say DBT wasn't helpful,
but DBT was has definitely been helpful.
(22:17):
I started using and learning about DBT I would say back in.
2016 though I didn't start usingit like.
Properly till 2018 and I think part of the reason that I really
really found benefit found BT beneficial was because it was
(22:39):
focusing on. Well, managing and reducing my
distress rather than changing who I was and I had a lot of
distress back then. Obviously been autistic and then
urine. Normative society means I do
experience a lot of different types of distress and DBT
actually focuses on that. It gave me tangible skills to.
(23:03):
Reduce the stress and regulate my emotions.
And I really needed that. And just so we can plug it, can
you please say the name of your workbook?
Yes, so it's the neurodivergent friendly workbook of DBT skills.
A bit of a mouthful. I know.
So awesome and I love that you have taken that skill set and
(23:25):
applied it to a specific audience, like so many people
who are out there trying to create change in the world.
It it's this peanut butter approach.
But you've gone. No, there's a community that I
can really help. Here is a skill.
I can really. It's not mental health people
that are struggling, it's DVT skills for neurodivergent people
and I love that because you're going to create impact using
(23:46):
that type of focus. And I agree.
I kind of set you up for that question so that we could geek
but on DBT for a second because I too think it's an incredibly
therapeutic intervention for those that are listening that
might not know. It stands for dialectical
behavioural therapy. It's a type of psychotherapy I
would say in the top three most recommended things you can do in
(24:10):
therapy from my perspective, outside of cognitive behavioural
therapy and like somatic trauma,healing, internal family
systems. But if you have any type of
attachment issues, if you are anxious, preoccupied and you
find yourself getting enmeshed and hurt a lot.
If you are dismissive, avoidant and you're shut down and you
feel like life is turning into two D of black and white.
(24:33):
Or if you're disorganised and you have an inability to self
regulate and you find yourself moving out of a stable state
into a state of maybe chaos or reactivity, DBT is for you.
And it was for me and it helped me a lot to build the solid
framework of who I was And then how to sustainably connect with
(24:56):
others. And that was a game changer.
So I'm so glad that you're a proponent and putting out the
work. So shifting gears to to
neurodiversity, I've got the info sheet that I will read in
the intro with regard to the terms so that people know, but
(25:17):
in plain English, in Sonny's words, what is neurodiversity to
you? Neurodiversity is literally just
simply the diversity of human minds.
It's just acknowledging the factthat every single brain or mind
in the world is different. There is no blueprint for the
(25:37):
perfect, normal mind. Just like every single person is
different, every single brain isdifferent and that's all it's
acknowledging. So it's celebrating as opposed
to stigmatising, which was we'veoften done in the past whereby
if someone's not normal, they have a disorder.
And yeah, what's your how do youdescribe to people the
(26:00):
difference between disorders andand talking about things more
from a neurodivergent angle? Well, think of it this way.
Disorder is a product of the pathology paradigm, and the
pathology paradigm is the dominant framework or lens
underpinning the DSM and psychiatry.
(26:21):
It reinforces the idea that there is a normal brain, there
is a normal mind, and there is anormal way to function.
And if you don't function according to that way or if you
have a mind that is different tothe normal mind.
They have a disorder. So it really reinforces the idea
that there is such thing as a normal mind.
(26:44):
Whereas when we talk about neurodivergent, once we are
acknowledging that people aren'tdisordered because they are
responding to trauma, people aren't disordered because they
are experiencing distress. People aren't disordered because
they communicate differently or feel differently.
And it's not to say that neurodivergent people don't
(27:05):
experience distress and challenges and struggles and
difficulties, but it's just it'snot.
Putting the problem onto the individual, like we can support
people's distress. We can support people's
challenges without framing them as something wrong with them.
And that's a key difference between disorder and
(27:26):
neurodivergent. If you're neurodivergent, you're
not disordered. You diverge from your
normativity. You diverge from how society
wants us to function but there'snot anything wrong with us.
Yeah. And that's a beautiful call back
to how we started this. I think this question, the
opening questions gotta stay theopinion.
It's controversial because we just link straight to it now.
(27:49):
Yeah that I think you're your entire worldview that has been
very helpful for you is is changing the the title of
different from being a bad thingto not just OK thing.
In a lot of ways, a good thing. And do you think that therapists
(28:09):
in the modern age have a problemunderstanding and treating
neurodivergent populations? Absolutely.
I think therapists are getting better when it comes to autism
and ADHD. But there is still this idea
that mental health conditions such as bipolar or OCD or
(28:32):
schizophrenia or DID you know dissociative identity disorder
are things that need to be fixedor treated or healed or gotten
rid of. And I think that is, you know.
That's something that's very common because obviously that's
what we're taught. I have a psych degree myself and
(28:54):
that is what we are taught in psychology.
So it does make sense that therapists and that are still
finding that hard to shift because.
You know, it's what we've been taught.
It's the dominant framework for a reason.
So we're only, I mean, we've only just started making any
progress with thinking about autism differently.
(29:16):
So of course, it's going to be alot harder to think about mental
health conditions differently. Yeah, well explained.
And there's I don't know if thisis just me and the circles that
I run in, but I'll just say whatI've observed.
I've observed a lot of people having adulthood or late stage
(29:41):
ADHD diagnosis. In the past kind of 24 months,
I've had a lot of friends go, hey, I just found out I have
ADHD and that could just be a complete coincidence in in the
world that I'm living in, or it could be something else.
Why do you think so many people get missed for the diagnosis of
ADHD? Why so many people get missed
(30:06):
for the diagnosis of ADHD? Two, I think there are a couple
of factors that go into that. One, our understanding of ADHD
is still very limited. It's similar to how our
understanding of autism is very limited.
A lot of the research on autism has been, you know, are focused
(30:28):
on a very, very narrow understanding, a very narrow
definition, a very narrow representation of what autism
is, and the same goes for ADHD. You know often a lot of the
research on ADHD is done on on little boys, it's done on kids
(30:49):
and so how ADHD presents in in women, in adults, in trans and
non binary people, in people whomaster ADHD our understanding of
that ADHD is not complete and sopeople get missed and then as
well. You know, ADHD is the spectrum,
(31:12):
just like autism is. And so there are people who.
You know, ADHD's who have been working, who have been studying,
who have been coping with their ADHD to the point that they're
like, you know what, this is fine.
This is just who I am. And then I think as well, COVID
(31:33):
hit and people started working from home.
It was a new environment and people were like, oh, hang on
how I've been, you know, pushingmyself and coping for the past
20 years isn't really serving meright now.
And so. You know things are coming to
the surface when you're put intoa different environment, you
(31:53):
know, other you start realising ohk crap, I prefer working from
home and rather than, you know, going to your nine to five jobs.
So then you realise, oh, hang on, there's actually, you know,
something wasn't working there or I was masking something.
And I think to your point aroundhow the same diagnosis or
(32:15):
disorder, if we subscribe to theWestern clinical way of
diagnosing people, can representvery differently according to
psychographic information or other information than I.
I'm a big believer in what you just raised.
Like the way the ADHD presents in women, for example, is very
(32:35):
different to how it presents in men in very different how it
presents in nonbinary folk. And we know that by looking at
the traits, even depression and the causation of depression is
coming from a very different story that one telling oneself
often. Yeah, depending on where they
are at in their life and what their core needs are and and
(32:58):
what they define as important. And yeah, I think a lot of
people can be missed because we have such a blanket view on
diagnosing and treating mental health.
Yeah, Latino, I feel like that is kind of.
An issue with diagnosis in general is that we have a we
(33:19):
have a very rigid box with very rigid criteria, and if you don't
meet that criteria, obviously you're you're not given a
diagnosis. But what if that criteria is
generalising? Is a blanket statement.
Is missing the nuance. Is not intersectional, so that
(33:41):
that rigid box you know ends up,well pushing.
People out of it, yeah. And I think what I'm hearing
from you and again, please jump in to correct.
I'm just going to summarise and play back that labelling in
rigid ways isn't helpful, but creating an umbrella that people
(34:02):
can unite around is helpful. So for example, ADHD doesn't
sound like it fit well or or wasnecessarily therapeutic for you,
but neurodivergent fit well and felt therapeutic for you.
So can you talk to me about yourviewpoint on labels?
Yeah, so that's interesting because I have genuinely found
(34:27):
88, my ADHD label and my autism label and my bipolar label and
my BPD label and my dyslexia, myOCD.
I've I've found all those labelsvery helpful.
And but I have found the neurodivergent label even more
helpful. And I do see the neurodivergent
(34:49):
label and the diagnosis labels as having different purposes.
And so my my autism label, my bipolar label, my ADHD label,
they have a different purpose through my neurodivergent label.
And I do believe that labels canbe very harmful, but I also
(35:14):
believe labels can be helpful. So when it comes to
neurodivergent, it is a very important label for me because
it is me rejecting the idea thatI am disordered.
It's rejecting the idea of saying that I have a diagnosis,
(35:35):
which means there's an illness within my brain because that's
what disorder means. It's the psychiatric way of
saying disease or illness that there is something wrong with
your brain. And I reject that concept.
I don't agree, which is why neurodivergent is so important.
And I, yeah, And I think as wellat the end of the day.
(35:59):
Individual labels like autism and ADHD and bipolar are helpful
because society has made them necessary.
We rely on a diagnosis to access.
Healthcare, to access accommodations at work, to
access accommodations within, you know, school.
(36:21):
We rely on it to get NDIS, to get therapy and so.
We do find those labels helpful because we've become reliant on
them. But at the same time, you know,
I didn't learn a positive understanding of autism until I
met other autistic people. And if we didn't have that
(36:43):
label, I might not have ever found community.
But at the same time, and, you know, so that means those labels
are really helpful. I do.
I wish we could have, you know, bipolar and schizophrenia and
autism and that, but without thebullshit, without the stigma,
without the harmful stereotypes,without the reinforcement that
(37:06):
it's the disorder, that there's something wrong with us.
But on the other hand, neurodivergent.
Neurodivergent is a very important identity because it is
rejecting the idea that we're disordered and it's moving away
from pathologising us and instead being like hey yeah,
(37:28):
like we diverge from urine normativity.
We all have that in common. Whereas if I just relied on the
autism label, I would miss out on connecting with people who
have. A different label, but still
identifies neurodivergent and I think as well neurodivergent is.
(37:50):
A way for people to think about things differently.
And so that's a completely different community for me.
Yeah, the I wonder if so first of all, I agree that something
can be helpful and not helpful at the same time.
We don't need to put it in a box.
And I think you explained reallywell just then that there's
(38:12):
multiple use cases where this can and can't be a good thing
for for you and others. I wonder if we changed the word.
It sounds like disorder is the word.
That's probably not overly I don't know what it's doing.
Like it is stigmatising of itself.
Like maybe if we called them experiences.
So like bipolar experience, attention deficit experience,
(38:36):
and obsessive compulsive experience, as opposed to
disorder, which means wrong, different for all the bad
reasons. We might be able to harness the
positives that you just explained in being able to
identify with something and leaving the bullshit aside.
I agree. Because, you know, funnily
enough, in the first two editions of the DSM, disorder
(38:59):
didn't actually exist. Everything was labelled as a
response. And then it wasn't until the 3rd
edition of the DSM that disorderwas introduced.
And so I do kind of think that at the beginning they, well,
they weren't perfect, but response was a lot better than
disorder because I feel like that's a lot more accurate.
(39:21):
Especially for let's go with PTSD, it's a response to trauma.
It's not a disorder within the individual, it's a response.
The same with anxiety, it is a response.
The same with the, you know, I believe with eating disorders,
eating disorders are are a response.
(39:43):
It's a coping strategy. It's a response to a lot of
things. Prolonged grief disorder.
That's a response. To grief, obviously.
And so I feel like, yeah, focusing on removing or
reframing the word disorder and focusing on how things are a
response or a divergent is really important.
(40:07):
So I actually kind of like to swap out the D for divergent.
So it's bipolar divergences. You know, autism spectrum
divergences makes me feel a little bit better.
Yeah, the I think the part of that that really hit home for me
is the premise that if it's called disorder, again the
(40:28):
through line in this talk is theyou you want to avoid it and run
away from it. Whereas a response or a
divergency really implies that there is valid reason and cause
for this, whether it's through nurture and environmental
factors and trauma or whether it's through nature where your
(40:49):
biology or your chemistry is is off for reasons outside of your
control. But both of them have a very
strong aspect of not blaming yourself as opposed to a
disorder you take on as I am a piece of shit.
And we do not want that because people don't get well when they
walk around thinking that. Absolutely, yeah.
(41:10):
And I think that's the key thingis that this order puts the
blame on the individual by saying that there's something
wrong with the way our brain is working.
And I don't think anyone, you know, I don't think shame is
productive for multiple reasons.Yep, we are 100% on the same
(41:31):
page on that one. So sunny.
I wanna now talk about somethingthat I spend pretty much my
whole life doing, which is helping people connect.
And we're connecting right now. And I run a course called Real
Conversations where we teach people how to drop from the head
to the heart and actually understand someone as opposed to
try and fix them. Can you tell me about an
(41:53):
experience, a positive experience of connection, where
someone has supported you in a way it was super helpful and and
an example of that? And can you also tell me about
an experience where someone has tried to be helpful but they've
actually made you feel heaps worse?
Oh. I can.
(42:17):
I can. I can think of the second a lot
easier than I can think of the first.
Yeah, that. Yeah.
Oof. OK, so.
Yeah, OK, so I was at a community event where I was
(42:42):
networking with important members in the community and it
was, it was a fundraising event for a community centre that I
helped founded, and I was talking to different people and
I was. Being my autistic self, I do
find socialising and communicating with people are
(43:04):
very overwhelming and difficult and so there were a couple of
times where I would be in a group of three talking to people
and you know, I wasn't sure how,like, you know.
Of like, social norms and everything.
So I I was like, alright, well I'm gonna go over there now to
go talk to them and say goodbye and then out abruptly leave the
(43:26):
conversation and I had someone who was in the group with me and
say like, hey like that's reallyrude to you're being really rude
right now. And it was really.
Confronting being a. Being singled out like that, and
(43:49):
to be, for lack of a better word, told off.
And they did it a couple of times.
They fired like stood there likeawkwardly, like going like this.
They'll be like you. Like, you need to stop that.
Like you're scaring people. So basically that night at the
community event, I received a lot of policing on how I would
(44:11):
act or how I would move or what I'd say.
And afterwards I like approachedthem.
I'm like, hey, like why did you do this?
Like it made me really uncomfortable and it made me
even more anxious and it made mefeel bad about myself And they
told me that they were trying tohelp me.
(44:31):
They thought I would want to make a good impression and they
thought I would want people to They they they were trying to
help me become more likeable is what they said and.
That was wrong. I'm I'm a very likeable person
and I think me being awkward or me being autistic doesn't make
(44:53):
me any less likeable. And so I understood that they
had their best intentions at heart.
They were trying to help me be likeable, but by doing so they
were shaming my autism. They were making me feel bad
about myself. They were reinforcing.
(45:15):
This idea of how someone should act on to me and expecting me to
change, so that was and I get that a lot, to be honest.
I can be very blunt or I can be really awkward and then people
will label that as rude or mean or standoffish.
So yeah, that's such a powerful story because I think a lot of
(45:40):
people listening can identify when they've taken it upon
themselves in moments in the past to call someone out or tell
someone to do something because they think they have their
someone else's best interest at heart and without checking what
is their best interest, like, what are you actually wanting
(46:01):
out of this experience? We're just assuming that we're
being helpful when, when not. And potentially that helpfulness
can come in a way that's delivered in a shameful response
as opposed to a constructive or curious response.
Yes, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
What about a conversation, Sunny, where you're like, wow,
(46:22):
this is been an incredible experience.
Maybe with a friend or. So firstly, I'm not great at
thinking of examples. I'm thinking off the top of my
head has never been a skill set of mine.
So there is one example that wasquite recent because it's easier
(46:42):
for me to think of more recent examples.
And it's, it's an interesting one because I normally wouldn't
have ever phrased it as like a super positive experience, but
in a way it was. So I recently got top surgery
(47:04):
and I never told my mum. I told I I didn't tell her.
And then when I came out after top surgery, that's when she
found out. So it was, you know, surprise
and. My mum had a lot of my mum.
Obviously, I had concerns and confusion and.
(47:26):
She didn't agree. And when I finally had the
conversation with her about it. She.
Set told me that she doesn't really understand.
She doesn't necessarily agree, but she said to me, you've
always been different and you always do.
(47:48):
What you want to do? And I respect that, and I'm
going to support you and love you anyway.
And when she And then she was like, are you going to go on tea
on testosterone? And I'm like, I'm not sure if I
do, it'll be to change my voice.And she was like, alright, I
(48:14):
think, I don't get that. But I'll still love you, like
I'll still support you. And to be honest, that is
probably the most positive experience I've ever had with my
mother. And I think that.
Is one of the most powerful things that she could have done.
The most, one of the most positive things that she could
have done. It doesn't matter if she doesn't
(48:36):
understand me. It doesn't matter if other
people don't understand, you know, how my brain works or who
I am. It doesn't even matter if they
don't agree for whatever reason.But that unconditional
acceptance, that unconditional support, is so important.
(48:58):
I think that's so powerful that.Yeah, just that unconditional
acceptance that. Hey, you know what?
I don't get it. I don't really understand.
But I'm gonna love you anyway. I'm gonna accept you anyway.
That's really powerful, super powerful.
And it's interesting where, yeah, they might not agree, they
(49:20):
might not understand because they don't have a frame of
reference. But I think it's both to me and
I don't wanna put words in your mouth because your response was
fantastic. And just by the way, you're
amazing at thinking up off the top of your head.
I think you're discrediting yourself.
We've done that for the last 45 minutes and you've come up with
the incredibly insightful answers.
(49:43):
So but it I always I always define understanding not by one
sphere of reference by but ones curiosity to understand my
sphere of reference. So, for example, as someone
who's not transitioning myself, who's heterosexual, cisgender,
(50:09):
is that the correct terminology?Yep, yes.
And I I can't say I get it from my own lived experience or
belief systems, but I can understand you by being curious
around why that's important to you.
What hurts by that not happening?
What desires are achieved? If that does happen, what's the
(50:31):
stories that are playing out in your head?
And then once I know that, I then have a sphere of reference,
because all human needs and all human pains are universal, they
just look different on the surface.
So I think I I agree with your point that someone might not
need to agree or have their own sphere of reference, but I think
we all have the capacity to unconditionally accept and
(50:52):
understand their sphere of reference.
Does that make sense? Yeah, no, that actually makes a
lot of sense. And I think that's yet very true
and applicable actually, becauseI something that my mom said to
me that helped her acceptance and understanding was.
(51:14):
She saw photos of me afterwards and she was like, wow, like you
look happy, you look happier. And that really helped her
acceptance. And I think that's kind of a she
developed an understanding of myunderstanding that to do so to
transition makes me happier. And she understands that.
(51:37):
She doesn't understand, like, the gender side of things, but
she understands my happiness andwell being.
Hmm. What an incredibly uplifting,
mature, educational conversation.
Sonny, I'm so honoured and grateful that you've let us into
a window of your world and to kind of bring us home and round
(52:00):
us out, I'm going to ask 1:00 to3:00 remaining questions.
The first one I'd like to ask you is, was there a question
that you wish I'd asked but I didn't?
No, actually I think you you asked some.
Really good questions that prompted some very important
(52:21):
conversations. Great.
What's one book that you would recommend other than your own?
Um. There's an incredible book that
has just come out called Decolonising Therapy and it's by
Doctor Jennifer Milan and. It's all about going into the
(52:47):
roots of therapy and. Reclaiming or Decolonising
Therapy and the Importance of community care.
And you know, it's basically just a very, very good book and
I really recommend it. Yep, lovely.
And last but not least, sunny. Where can we find you online if
(53:08):
we want to keep in touch or be part of your community?
Instagram at Lived Experience educator.
And then I'm also on LinkedIn. Sunny Jane Wise perfect.
It's been a pleasure and lookingforward to staying connected and
in your community. Thank you for opening the window
(53:28):
to this awesome conversation. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced, and so if there's
more thoughts, more stories, more intentions come along.
So the act of how am I leaving it alone Is an act of not act,
adding more stories, adding fuelto it.
So it might not go away in 2 minutes, but it begins to relax
(53:50):
at dissipate. And so, rather than being the
person who has to fix it, would become the person who makes
space for the heart, the mind. To relax and settle away itself.
It doesn't matter if other people don't understand, you
know, how my brain works or who I am.
It doesn't even matter if they don't agree for whatever reason.
But that unconditional acceptance, that unconditional
support is so important, I thinkthat's so powerful.
(00:23):
We're on it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word Idi KICKING break.
We have an aversion to ourselvesand to what's happening inside
(00:43):
us, inside us. I've been very interested in
this problem for a long, long time.
Something settles. Today's guest is Sunny Jane, a
multi neurodivergent, queer and disabled public speaker advocate
(01:05):
and author with a strong social media presence.
They are also the Co Chair of the National Autism Strategy
Social Inclusion Working Group. Sunny was diagnosed as a child
and grew up only hearing a deficit narrative around their
neurodivergent. Since then, they've gone on to
build an audience. Of over 100,000 people Online
(01:27):
have written the Neurodivergent Friendly Workbook of DBT Skills
have worked with organisations and services around Australia to
help change the narrative aroundNeurodivergent and create the
first drop in centre. In Adelaide CBD to provide a
safe space for people who identify as LGBTQ, IA plus
(01:50):
disabled or neurodivergent. I thought just before we dive
into the episode it would be good to clarify some terms
because there was a bunch that Ididn't even know.
So neurodiversity refers to the diversity of all human minds and
the unique ways that they can exist, think, act, process and
feel. It's a fundamental truth that we
(02:12):
are diverse in our minds. Just like we're diverse in our
ethnicity, gender, sexuality, etc, neurodivergent is an
umbrella term to describe an individual whose mind or
functioning diverges from dominant societal norms,
standards, or expectations, including learning, processing,
interpreting, feeling, behaving,etc.
(02:32):
Neurodivergent can be acquired or genetic, A fundamental part
of your identity or not. Neurotypical is a term to
describe an individual whose functioning falls within the
domain of societal norms. Neurotypical is the opposite of
neurodivergent. Neurodiverse is a term to
describe a group or population of people who have different
(02:54):
minds or brains compared to eachother and neuro normative or
neuro normativity is a set of standards, expectations and
norms that centre certain ways of functioning as the superior
and right way. Now the reason these terms are
important is because the majority of Sunny and Eyes
conversation was focused on how.Bad is often different, and
(03:20):
different is often bad. But what?
Who set the baseline and is thatright?
And I think regardless of whether you identify as
neurodivergent as. Transgender.
Sis normative or any of these terms?
We had a really good discussion around the existential nature of
(03:41):
how we label things. When is it helpful and not
helpful? And really de stigmatising
different. I really enjoyed our discussion.
Sunny is incredibly intelligent and had a lot of unique
viewpoints. I hope you enjoyed as much as I
did. So without further ado, here's
Sunny. OK, Sunny, we started this last
(04:07):
episode with the question that our listeners found helpful.
So I wanna ask it again because I think it's quite a nice jump
off point to an interview like this.
And that is, what is an opinion that you have that's probably
controversial? The more controversial, the
better about mental health that you wholeheartedly believe.
(04:32):
Oh oh crap. Oh damn.
OHP that's Well, I'm not gonna share my most controversial
opinion because I don't think many people are ready for that.
But I think some mental health conditions, some might mental
health diagnosis, are not inherently distressing or
(04:59):
dangerous or harmful. There are many mental health
diagnosis that don't actually need to be fixed or treated or
cured. Hmm.
Yeah. I think that's a really
important point is that the moment we say mental health, I
think we assume that something'swrong.
But a lot of times it could justmean different.
(05:21):
And different doesn't necessarily mean better or
worse, It just means atypical tothe norm.
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
So do you remember the first time that you felt different?
I was in kindergarten, so I would have been about four years
old, but that's when I was introduced to the psychiatric
(05:45):
system, when I started seeing psychiatrists and started seeing
doctors and they were all telling me that there was
something wrong with me. So I think you know a lot of it,
I guess for me personally, in kindergarten, I do remember
feeling so different to the other kids around me, and that
was reflected in how they treated me.
(06:09):
So yeah, I was very young when Ifirst felt different.
Yeah, I can imagine that would be very overwhelming and
probably disorientating given that you were that young and you
were trying to make sense of theworld and the world is telling
you that something's not going how it's quote unquote supposed
(06:29):
to. Is there any particular thing
that a psychiatrist or medical professional did or said that
really sticks in your mind around that age of?
Being somewhat harming or triggering back then, I think
one of the most harmful things that a psychiatrist did to me or
(06:50):
said about me was they said I was a narcissist.
And this was when I was about six years old, and I remember
being six years old. I actually called it naughty ISM
because one, I couldn't pronounce narcissism, and two, I
didn't actually understand what that meant.
So I thought, you know, they were just calling me naughty.
(07:14):
Um, sorry I couldn't naughty ISM.
And I think, you know, being labelled with that term so young
is but one, baffling and two, you know, obviously they didn't
mean it in a positive way. So it, you know, led to me
making believing certain things about me that weren't true and
(07:36):
were stigmatising. And I know that ended up
building up to be quite a heavy burden to hold because, correct
me if I'm wrong, at the age of 11 you attempted an overdose.
Is that correct? Yes, yes, I was.
I started trialling different psychiatric medication when I
(07:56):
was about 7 years old. And then between the ages of
seven and 10, you know, we were trying to find the right
medication. And then when I was about 10
years old, they found the right medication.
And when I was 11, in year six Ibelieve, or year five, I decided
to take more than I was meant tobecause I thought it would, you
(08:21):
know, make me better, quicker because that's what medication
was. You know, that's how medication
was communicated to me, that themedication was there to fix me.
It was there to make me better. So you know, in the logic of a
kid, taking more means you get better, quicker.
I can see how you make that linkfor sure, yeah.
(08:44):
Was there any part of you at that age that wanted to die?
Oh, absolutely, 100%. Which is why I'm following that
first overdose. I had numerous attempts.
I'd say yearly, if not more thanyearly for the next 10 years.
(09:06):
Wow. That's.
I mean, I don't know. If you haven't been there, it's
really hard to get in the mind of someone who's scraping by
like that. I mean, to some extent I can
relate to your story, even though it had.
You know a different manifestation.
I do know what it's like to go day by day and wonder.
(09:28):
If the last ones coming. Because you just get so
exhausted. Is that how you felt?
Definitely. I think, you know, it's
exhausting living every day, notwanting to exist, living
everyday as if believing you don't deserve to be alive.
(09:50):
And obviously, you know, now I'mnot suicidal, so sometimes I
like to. I do think back on those days,
and I can't imagine, you know, my entire life revolved around
me not wanting to exist. You know, the world being too
much does believing that I deserve to not be alive.
(10:12):
And so to put myself in that frame, set that that mindset I
used to have is hard even for mebecause it is so dark and
different to you know how we should be thinking and feeling.
I'm so happy to hear you say that you know that that it feels
(10:33):
so foreign. And the degree to which it feels
foreign is a really good indicator of how far we've come.
And you and I both know that it's an ongoing management
thing. But if there's still a sense of
foreignness to that darkness, itmeans that we've grown a lot.
And I'm interested to hear Sunny, what what exactly were
(10:57):
they medicating you for? I'm sorry?
They were medicating me for ADHD.
They were medicating me for autism, and they were medicating
me for our Tourettes. But more specifically, they and
well, they're also medicating meas a teenager for the depression
and, you know, self harm. But specifically for my, I guess
(11:21):
what they used to call my outbursts.
Apparently I had very poor behaviour and you know, I was
naughty and had a lot of meltdowns or in their eyes
outbursts and tantrums and they were medicating me for ticks and
stimming and basically they wanted me to be more well
(11:46):
behaved because my mum found it really hard to manage me and
everything. As you would lead up to one of
these, what other people would call meltdowns are outbursts.
What are some of the feelings that or what are some of the
thoughts that were going on inside you that were felt like a
volcano? Oh, oh, that's that's a hard one
(12:12):
because I think because even nowI'm, I still get the occasional
meltdown, you know, that is a part of being autistic.
But back then, so meltdowns often it doesn't feel like there
are coherent thoughts. It's more like an avalanche, a a
volcano of like intense frustration and anger and
(12:39):
overwhelm and everything is justrising up and it gets too much
that, you know, I wouldn't even be thinking actual thoughts.
I'd just be feeling. Hmm, that's interesting.
I wouldn't be thinking actual thoughts.
I'd be feeling. And I think it sounds like the
feeling wasn't anything in particular.
(13:00):
It was this immense sense of unease and, as you say,
incoherence. And do you know if the feeling
was directed more toward yourself?
Like, did you get angry and frustrated and volcanic at your
own experience? I wish I wasn't like this.
Or was it more at the world and externally?
Why don't they get it? Why are they making me feel like
(13:22):
this? Which way was the finger
pointing? Both.
Sometimes it was towards me and I think often sorry as a
teenager. The feel those meltdowns, those
volcanoes towards myself manifested in self harm and
cutting up my clothes. Whereas the meltdowns, the
(13:44):
feelings that were direct were more responses to outside
things. They manifested more externally.
I would say so. I used to be the type of person
where if I had a meltdown, I'd be put in my room and then I'd
kind of thrash everything. I would, you know, knock my
(14:05):
bookcases to the ground. I'll throw things at the wall.
I would break everything. And those, you know, those
meltdowns, I think, you know, those volcanoes were very
terrifying to people around me. And that's what, you know, they
really wanted to try to stop. But The thing is, those moments
(14:26):
were a response to something that had happened and and so you
know, they were really targetingthe wrong thing.
They were trying to put a band aid over something instead of
like fixing the actual issue. You sound like someone who's
done a lot of work, not just obviously in therapy and on
yourself, but you're quite educated in this space because
(14:48):
you are being able to partition cause and effect and things like
that. And that kind of leads me to
there's obviously this. Pain thread that's run up until
a certain age and then somethinghas started to happen that has
got you to where you are now. This incredibly coherent person
who is speaking and authoring and changing the world and
(15:13):
living what I can see is your authentic self.
Can you talk me through what agethat that tide started to turn
and and what were the helpful factors?
Honestly, the tide didn't start turning till 2019.
It was a very key year in the tide shifting because you aren't
(15:36):
right, that pain threat. I think it's a very kind of a
really good way to put it because it was like there was
this thread and that thread was snipped in 2019.
It started fraying at the edges.I guess there were multiple
factors. A big part of it was a huge
(15:59):
shift in the way that I thought about things.
Um, And a lot of that was being introduced to the concept of
neurodiversity and neurodivergent once because up
until that day, you know, I did see, I did, you know, I view I
had a, I had a, I had a stigmatising understanding of
(16:21):
autism and ADHD, but also mentalhealth conditions and mental
health in general. And I had a lot of blame on
myself. You know, I genuinely believed,
oh, OK it's I'm the issue. You know, it's what's that?
Taylor Swift lyric, It's me. Hi.
I'm the problem. It's me that, you know, was
(16:42):
literally my life. So reframing that thinking was a
huge part of it. And in saying that, I didn't
reframe my thinking until obviously did a lot of trauma
healing but also had access to community.
So I started learning from the right people.
I started learning from lived experience and then as well
(17:08):
developing actual good friendships and relationships.
Up until then, I didn't really have any close friends.
And the friends that I did have temporarily were not good.
They weren't, you know, good friendships.
And then they didn't have any healthy relationships either.
And so, you know, in 2019, that's when I started having
(17:32):
solid relationships, solid friendships.
I had a good home environment where I had access to support
and accommodations. I stopped working part time.
I have a feeling that was a hugepart of it.
Um, So, yeah. Community relationships,
(17:52):
friendships, reframing, my thinking, access to support and
accommodations, yeah. Yeah.
OK. So I'm gonna play that back if
that's OK, because I think this is, there's a couple of really
important things you said there and it ties into a philosophy
that I hold very dearly. I talk on stage about is the
(18:13):
pretty much the Thesis and Epicentre to my books.
Is it too simple to summarise the step, the first step that
you were referring to, which is that I started to let go of my
own stigma as I started to move out of shame?
(18:34):
Or does that feel right? That feels very right.
I thought so, and in my experience, I've never seen
someone properly heal. And I mean he'll like actually
get better former solid foundation under their feet,
start to experience joy, stable relationships and productive
(18:57):
work etcetera. Until.
They have. Found an ability to sit with
what is true or set another way.Have gone beyond just being
stuck in that shame membrane that surrounds pain and they've
(19:17):
dropped the brave face and allowed themselves to move into
who they are. And you know, otherwise it's
just coping like so many tools, like the exercise and the even
medication and accommodations. I don't think any of those
tactics stick until you have gone beyond.
Game because your biology, your psyche is not ready for for that
(19:39):
to receive and be fertile until the fertiliser of an open mind
and a shameless mind to receive it.
And I'm so glad. That those conditions happen for
you, whether that be through social education, around
neurodivergent, see whether it'sthrough people that came into
(20:03):
your life in 2019, whatever happened.
Led you to accepting who Sonny is, and that sounds like the
catalyst for everything else to start to thread in in a in a
growth thread, not a pain thread, right?
Absolutely. Yeah.
No, I completely agree. I think unpacking and getting
rid of shame is a key part of everyone's journey.
(20:26):
I don't think we can genuinely have a positive self identity or
you know, a positive self esteemor acceptance of ourselves
without. Unpacking shame.
Amen. Amen.
And then you you draw me to a second point that I share an
extremely similar viewpoint in both my lived experience and my
(20:47):
psychological research is after shames gone, the single best
tactical intervention you can use to get better is building
the right type of relationships around you.
Like connection is the greatest factor to our mental health
outside of genetics and biology and our attachment style, our
(21:09):
boundaries. All that stuff is the influence,
It's the sensitive variable. And I don't think people truly
get that The Who they have in their life and the way that
they're interacting with them iscompounding on the way that you
feel. Yeah, no 100%.
I believe like a community and access to community and like
(21:31):
relationships is. Is so crucial and we, you know,
we we live in a very individualistic society and so
we really do underestimate the importance and power of having
good relationships and good community.
Yes. And do you think that with
(21:55):
regard to relationships and connection, DBT has been an
important skill for you? Yeah, absolutely.
Obviously I've I've read workbook on DBT, so it would be
a little hypocritical of me if Ididn't say DBT wasn't helpful,
but DBT was has definitely been helpful.
(22:17):
I started using and learning about DBT I would say back in.
2016 though I didn't start usingit like.
Properly till 2018 and I think part of the reason that I really
really found benefit found BT beneficial was because it was
(22:39):
focusing on. Well, managing and reducing my
distress rather than changing who I was and I had a lot of
distress back then. Obviously been autistic and then
urine. Normative society means I do
experience a lot of different types of distress and DBT
actually focuses on that. It gave me tangible skills to.
(23:03):
Reduce the stress and regulate my emotions.
And I really needed that. And just so we can plug it, can
you please say the name of your workbook?
Yes, so it's the neurodivergent friendly workbook of DBT skills.
A bit of a mouthful. I know.
So awesome and I love that you have taken that skill set and
(23:25):
applied it to a specific audience, like so many people
who are out there trying to create change in the world.
It it's this peanut butter approach.
But you've gone. No, there's a community that I
can really help. Here is a skill.
I can really. It's not mental health people
that are struggling, it's DVT skills for neurodivergent people
and I love that because you're going to create impact using
(23:46):
that type of focus. And I agree.
I kind of set you up for that question so that we could geek
but on DBT for a second because I too think it's an incredibly
therapeutic intervention for those that are listening that
might not know. It stands for dialectical
behavioural therapy. It's a type of psychotherapy I
would say in the top three most recommended things you can do in
(24:10):
therapy from my perspective, outside of cognitive behavioural
therapy and like somatic trauma,healing, internal family
systems. But if you have any type of
attachment issues, if you are anxious, preoccupied and you
find yourself getting enmeshed and hurt a lot.
If you are dismissive, avoidant and you're shut down and you
feel like life is turning into two D of black and white.
(24:33):
Or if you're disorganised and you have an inability to self
regulate and you find yourself moving out of a stable state
into a state of maybe chaos or reactivity, DBT is for you.
And it was for me and it helped me a lot to build the solid
framework of who I was And then how to sustainably connect with
(24:56):
others. And that was a game changer.
So I'm so glad that you're a proponent and putting out the
work. So shifting gears to to
neurodiversity, I've got the info sheet that I will read in
the intro with regard to the terms so that people know, but
(25:17):
in plain English, in Sonny's words, what is neurodiversity to
you? Neurodiversity is literally just
simply the diversity of human minds.
It's just acknowledging the factthat every single brain or mind
in the world is different. There is no blueprint for the
(25:37):
perfect, normal mind. Just like every single person is
different, every single brain isdifferent and that's all it's
acknowledging. So it's celebrating as opposed
to stigmatising, which was we'veoften done in the past whereby
if someone's not normal, they have a disorder.
And yeah, what's your how do youdescribe to people the
(26:00):
difference between disorders andand talking about things more
from a neurodivergent angle? Well, think of it this way.
Disorder is a product of the pathology paradigm, and the
pathology paradigm is the dominant framework or lens
underpinning the DSM and psychiatry.
(26:21):
It reinforces the idea that there is a normal brain, there
is a normal mind, and there is anormal way to function.
And if you don't function according to that way or if you
have a mind that is different tothe normal mind.
They have a disorder. So it really reinforces the idea
that there is such thing as a normal mind.
(26:44):
Whereas when we talk about neurodivergent, once we are
acknowledging that people aren'tdisordered because they are
responding to trauma, people aren't disordered because they
are experiencing distress. People aren't disordered because
they communicate differently or feel differently.
And it's not to say that neurodivergent people don't
(27:05):
experience distress and challenges and struggles and
difficulties, but it's just it'snot.
Putting the problem onto the individual, like we can support
people's distress. We can support people's
challenges without framing them as something wrong with them.
And that's a key difference between disorder and
(27:26):
neurodivergent. If you're neurodivergent, you're
not disordered. You diverge from your
normativity. You diverge from how society
wants us to function but there'snot anything wrong with us.
Yeah. And that's a beautiful call back
to how we started this. I think this question, the
opening questions gotta stay theopinion.
It's controversial because we just link straight to it now.
(27:49):
Yeah that I think you're your entire worldview that has been
very helpful for you is is changing the the title of
different from being a bad thingto not just OK thing.
In a lot of ways, a good thing. And do you think that therapists
(28:09):
in the modern age have a problemunderstanding and treating
neurodivergent populations? Absolutely.
I think therapists are getting better when it comes to autism
and ADHD. But there is still this idea
that mental health conditions such as bipolar or OCD or
(28:32):
schizophrenia or DID you know dissociative identity disorder
are things that need to be fixedor treated or healed or gotten
rid of. And I think that is, you know.
That's something that's very common because obviously that's
what we're taught. I have a psych degree myself and
(28:54):
that is what we are taught in psychology.
So it does make sense that therapists and that are still
finding that hard to shift because.
You know, it's what we've been taught.
It's the dominant framework for a reason.
So we're only, I mean, we've only just started making any
progress with thinking about autism differently.
(29:16):
So of course, it's going to be alot harder to think about mental
health conditions differently. Yeah, well explained.
And there's I don't know if thisis just me and the circles that
I run in, but I'll just say whatI've observed.
I've observed a lot of people having adulthood or late stage
(29:41):
ADHD diagnosis. In the past kind of 24 months,
I've had a lot of friends go, hey, I just found out I have
ADHD and that could just be a complete coincidence in in the
world that I'm living in, or it could be something else.
Why do you think so many people get missed for the diagnosis of
ADHD? Why so many people get missed
(30:06):
for the diagnosis of ADHD? Two, I think there are a couple
of factors that go into that. One, our understanding of ADHD
is still very limited. It's similar to how our
understanding of autism is very limited.
A lot of the research on autism has been, you know, are focused
(30:28):
on a very, very narrow understanding, a very narrow
definition, a very narrow representation of what autism
is, and the same goes for ADHD. You know often a lot of the
research on ADHD is done on on little boys, it's done on kids
(30:49):
and so how ADHD presents in in women, in adults, in trans and
non binary people, in people whomaster ADHD our understanding of
that ADHD is not complete and sopeople get missed and then as
well. You know, ADHD is the spectrum,
(31:12):
just like autism is. And so there are people who.
You know, ADHD's who have been working, who have been studying,
who have been coping with their ADHD to the point that they're
like, you know what, this is fine.
This is just who I am. And then I think as well, COVID
(31:33):
hit and people started working from home.
It was a new environment and people were like, oh, hang on
how I've been, you know, pushingmyself and coping for the past
20 years isn't really serving meright now.
And so. You know things are coming to
the surface when you're put intoa different environment, you
(31:53):
know, other you start realising ohk crap, I prefer working from
home and rather than, you know, going to your nine to five jobs.
So then you realise, oh, hang on, there's actually, you know,
something wasn't working there or I was masking something.
And I think to your point aroundhow the same diagnosis or
(32:15):
disorder, if we subscribe to theWestern clinical way of
diagnosing people, can representvery differently according to
psychographic information or other information than I.
I'm a big believer in what you just raised.
Like the way the ADHD presents in women, for example, is very
(32:35):
different to how it presents in men in very different how it
presents in nonbinary folk. And we know that by looking at
the traits, even depression and the causation of depression is
coming from a very different story that one telling oneself
often. Yeah, depending on where they
are at in their life and what their core needs are and and
(32:58):
what they define as important. And yeah, I think a lot of
people can be missed because we have such a blanket view on
diagnosing and treating mental health.
Yeah, Latino, I feel like that is kind of.
An issue with diagnosis in general is that we have a we
(33:19):
have a very rigid box with very rigid criteria, and if you don't
meet that criteria, obviously you're you're not given a
diagnosis. But what if that criteria is
generalising? Is a blanket statement.
Is missing the nuance. Is not intersectional, so that
(33:41):
that rigid box you know ends up,well pushing.
People out of it, yeah. And I think what I'm hearing
from you and again, please jump in to correct.
I'm just going to summarise and play back that labelling in
rigid ways isn't helpful, but creating an umbrella that people
(34:02):
can unite around is helpful. So for example, ADHD doesn't
sound like it fit well or or wasnecessarily therapeutic for you,
but neurodivergent fit well and felt therapeutic for you.
So can you talk to me about yourviewpoint on labels?
Yeah, so that's interesting because I have genuinely found
(34:27):
88, my ADHD label and my autism label and my bipolar label and
my BPD label and my dyslexia, myOCD.
I've I've found all those labelsvery helpful.
And but I have found the neurodivergent label even more
helpful. And I do see the neurodivergent
(34:49):
label and the diagnosis labels as having different purposes.
And so my my autism label, my bipolar label, my ADHD label,
they have a different purpose through my neurodivergent label.
And I do believe that labels canbe very harmful, but I also
(35:14):
believe labels can be helpful. So when it comes to
neurodivergent, it is a very important label for me because
it is me rejecting the idea thatI am disordered.
It's rejecting the idea of saying that I have a diagnosis,
(35:35):
which means there's an illness within my brain because that's
what disorder means. It's the psychiatric way of
saying disease or illness that there is something wrong with
your brain. And I reject that concept.
I don't agree, which is why neurodivergent is so important.
And I, yeah, And I think as wellat the end of the day.
(35:59):
Individual labels like autism and ADHD and bipolar are helpful
because society has made them necessary.
We rely on a diagnosis to access.
Healthcare, to access accommodations at work, to
access accommodations within, you know, school.
(36:21):
We rely on it to get NDIS, to get therapy and so.
We do find those labels helpful because we've become reliant on
them. But at the same time, you know,
I didn't learn a positive understanding of autism until I
met other autistic people. And if we didn't have that
(36:43):
label, I might not have ever found community.
But at the same time, and, you know, so that means those labels
are really helpful. I do.
I wish we could have, you know, bipolar and schizophrenia and
autism and that, but without thebullshit, without the stigma,
without the harmful stereotypes,without the reinforcement that
(37:06):
it's the disorder, that there's something wrong with us.
But on the other hand, neurodivergent.
Neurodivergent is a very important identity because it is
rejecting the idea that we're disordered and it's moving away
from pathologising us and instead being like hey yeah,
(37:28):
like we diverge from urine normativity.
We all have that in common. Whereas if I just relied on the
autism label, I would miss out on connecting with people who
have. A different label, but still
identifies neurodivergent and I think as well neurodivergent is.
(37:50):
A way for people to think about things differently.
And so that's a completely different community for me.
Yeah, the I wonder if so first of all, I agree that something
can be helpful and not helpful at the same time.
We don't need to put it in a box.
And I think you explained reallywell just then that there's
(38:12):
multiple use cases where this can and can't be a good thing
for for you and others. I wonder if we changed the word.
It sounds like disorder is the word.
That's probably not overly I don't know what it's doing.
Like it is stigmatising of itself.
Like maybe if we called them experiences.
So like bipolar experience, attention deficit experience,
(38:36):
and obsessive compulsive experience, as opposed to
disorder, which means wrong, different for all the bad
reasons. We might be able to harness the
positives that you just explained in being able to
identify with something and leaving the bullshit aside.
I agree. Because, you know, funnily
enough, in the first two editions of the DSM, disorder
(38:59):
didn't actually exist. Everything was labelled as a
response. And then it wasn't until the 3rd
edition of the DSM that disorderwas introduced.
And so I do kind of think that at the beginning they, well,
they weren't perfect, but response was a lot better than
disorder because I feel like that's a lot more accurate.
(39:21):
Especially for let's go with PTSD, it's a response to trauma.
It's not a disorder within the individual, it's a response.
The same with anxiety, it is a response.
The same with the, you know, I believe with eating disorders,
eating disorders are are a response.
(39:43):
It's a coping strategy. It's a response to a lot of
things. Prolonged grief disorder.
That's a response. To grief, obviously.
And so I feel like, yeah, focusing on removing or
reframing the word disorder and focusing on how things are a
response or a divergent is really important.
(40:07):
So I actually kind of like to swap out the D for divergent.
So it's bipolar divergences. You know, autism spectrum
divergences makes me feel a little bit better.
Yeah, the I think the part of that that really hit home for me
is the premise that if it's called disorder, again the
(40:28):
through line in this talk is theyou you want to avoid it and run
away from it. Whereas a response or a
divergency really implies that there is valid reason and cause
for this, whether it's through nurture and environmental
factors and trauma or whether it's through nature where your
(40:49):
biology or your chemistry is is off for reasons outside of your
control. But both of them have a very
strong aspect of not blaming yourself as opposed to a
disorder you take on as I am a piece of shit.
And we do not want that because people don't get well when they
walk around thinking that. Absolutely, yeah.
(41:10):
And I think that's the key thingis that this order puts the
blame on the individual by saying that there's something
wrong with the way our brain is working.
And I don't think anyone, you know, I don't think shame is
productive for multiple reasons.Yep, we are 100% on the same
(41:31):
page on that one. So sunny.
I wanna now talk about somethingthat I spend pretty much my
whole life doing, which is helping people connect.
And we're connecting right now. And I run a course called Real
Conversations where we teach people how to drop from the head
to the heart and actually understand someone as opposed to
try and fix them. Can you tell me about an
(41:53):
experience, a positive experience of connection, where
someone has supported you in a way it was super helpful and and
an example of that? And can you also tell me about
an experience where someone has tried to be helpful but they've
actually made you feel heaps worse?
Oh. I can.
(42:17):
I can. I can think of the second a lot
easier than I can think of the first.
Yeah, that. Yeah.
Oof. OK, so.
Yeah, OK, so I was at a community event where I was
(42:42):
networking with important members in the community and it
was, it was a fundraising event for a community centre that I
helped founded, and I was talking to different people and
I was. Being my autistic self, I do
find socialising and communicating with people are
(43:04):
very overwhelming and difficult and so there were a couple of
times where I would be in a group of three talking to people
and you know, I wasn't sure how,like, you know.
Of like, social norms and everything.
So I I was like, alright, well I'm gonna go over there now to
go talk to them and say goodbye and then out abruptly leave the
(43:26):
conversation and I had someone who was in the group with me and
say like, hey like that's reallyrude to you're being really rude
right now. And it was really.
Confronting being a. Being singled out like that, and
(43:49):
to be, for lack of a better word, told off.
And they did it a couple of times.
They fired like stood there likeawkwardly, like going like this.
They'll be like you. Like, you need to stop that.
Like you're scaring people. So basically that night at the
community event, I received a lot of policing on how I would
(44:11):
act or how I would move or what I'd say.
And afterwards I like approachedthem.
I'm like, hey, like why did you do this?
Like it made me really uncomfortable and it made me
even more anxious and it made mefeel bad about myself And they
told me that they were trying tohelp me.
(44:31):
They thought I would want to make a good impression and they
thought I would want people to They they they were trying to
help me become more likeable is what they said and.
That was wrong. I'm I'm a very likeable person
and I think me being awkward or me being autistic doesn't make
(44:53):
me any less likeable. And so I understood that they
had their best intentions at heart.
They were trying to help me be likeable, but by doing so they
were shaming my autism. They were making me feel bad
about myself. They were reinforcing.
(45:15):
This idea of how someone should act on to me and expecting me to
change, so that was and I get that a lot, to be honest.
I can be very blunt or I can be really awkward and then people
will label that as rude or mean or standoffish.
So yeah, that's such a powerful story because I think a lot of
(45:40):
people listening can identify when they've taken it upon
themselves in moments in the past to call someone out or tell
someone to do something because they think they have their
someone else's best interest at heart and without checking what
is their best interest, like, what are you actually wanting
(46:01):
out of this experience? We're just assuming that we're
being helpful when, when not. And potentially that helpfulness
can come in a way that's delivered in a shameful response
as opposed to a constructive or curious response.
Yes, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
What about a conversation, Sunny, where you're like, wow,
(46:22):
this is been an incredible experience.
Maybe with a friend or. So firstly, I'm not great at
thinking of examples. I'm thinking off the top of my
head has never been a skill set of mine.
So there is one example that wasquite recent because it's easier
(46:42):
for me to think of more recent examples.
And it's, it's an interesting one because I normally wouldn't
have ever phrased it as like a super positive experience, but
in a way it was. So I recently got top surgery
(47:04):
and I never told my mum. I told I I didn't tell her.
And then when I came out after top surgery, that's when she
found out. So it was, you know, surprise
and. My mum had a lot of my mum.
Obviously, I had concerns and confusion and.
(47:26):
She didn't agree. And when I finally had the
conversation with her about it. She.
Set told me that she doesn't really understand.
She doesn't necessarily agree, but she said to me, you've
always been different and you always do.
(47:48):
What you want to do? And I respect that, and I'm
going to support you and love you anyway.
And when she And then she was like, are you going to go on tea
on testosterone? And I'm like, I'm not sure if I
do, it'll be to change my voice.And she was like, alright, I
(48:14):
think, I don't get that. But I'll still love you, like
I'll still support you. And to be honest, that is
probably the most positive experience I've ever had with my
mother. And I think that.
Is one of the most powerful things that she could have done.
The most, one of the most positive things that she could
have done. It doesn't matter if she doesn't
(48:36):
understand me. It doesn't matter if other
people don't understand, you know, how my brain works or who
I am. It doesn't even matter if they
don't agree for whatever reason.But that unconditional
acceptance, that unconditional support, is so important.
(48:58):
I think that's so powerful that.Yeah, just that unconditional
acceptance that. Hey, you know what?
I don't get it. I don't really understand.
But I'm gonna love you anyway. I'm gonna accept you anyway.
That's really powerful, super powerful.
And it's interesting where, yeah, they might not agree, they
(49:20):
might not understand because they don't have a frame of
reference. But I think it's both to me and
I don't wanna put words in your mouth because your response was
fantastic. And just by the way, you're
amazing at thinking up off the top of your head.
I think you're discrediting yourself.
We've done that for the last 45 minutes and you've come up with
the incredibly insightful answers.
(49:43):
So but it I always I always define understanding not by one
sphere of reference by but ones curiosity to understand my
sphere of reference. So, for example, as someone
who's not transitioning myself, who's heterosexual, cisgender,
(50:09):
is that the correct terminology?Yep, yes.
And I I can't say I get it from my own lived experience or
belief systems, but I can understand you by being curious
around why that's important to you.
What hurts by that not happening?
What desires are achieved? If that does happen, what's the
(50:31):
stories that are playing out in your head?
And then once I know that, I then have a sphere of reference,
because all human needs and all human pains are universal, they
just look different on the surface.
So I think I I agree with your point that someone might not
need to agree or have their own sphere of reference, but I think
we all have the capacity to unconditionally accept and
(50:52):
understand their sphere of reference.
Does that make sense? Yeah, no, that actually makes a
lot of sense. And I think that's yet very true
and applicable actually, becauseI something that my mom said to
me that helped her acceptance and understanding was.
(51:14):
She saw photos of me afterwards and she was like, wow, like you
look happy, you look happier. And that really helped her
acceptance. And I think that's kind of a she
developed an understanding of myunderstanding that to do so to
transition makes me happier. And she understands that.
(51:37):
She doesn't understand, like, the gender side of things, but
she understands my happiness andwell being.
Hmm. What an incredibly uplifting,
mature, educational conversation.
Sonny, I'm so honoured and grateful that you've let us into
a window of your world and to kind of bring us home and round
(52:00):
us out, I'm going to ask 1:00 to3:00 remaining questions.
The first one I'd like to ask you is, was there a question
that you wish I'd asked but I didn't?
No, actually I think you you asked some.
Really good questions that prompted some very important
(52:21):
conversations. Great.
What's one book that you would recommend other than your own?
Um. There's an incredible book that
has just come out called Decolonising Therapy and it's by
Doctor Jennifer Milan and. It's all about going into the
(52:47):
roots of therapy and. Reclaiming or Decolonising
Therapy and the Importance of community care.
And you know, it's basically just a very, very good book and
I really recommend it. Yep, lovely.
And last but not least, sunny. Where can we find you online if
(53:08):
we want to keep in touch or be part of your community?
Instagram at Lived Experience educator.
And then I'm also on LinkedIn. Sunny Jane Wise perfect.
It's been a pleasure and lookingforward to staying connected and
in your community. Thank you for opening the window
(53:28):
to this awesome conversation. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced, and so if there's
more thoughts, more stories, more intentions come along.
So the act of how am I leaving it alone Is an act of not act,
adding more stories, adding fuelto it.
So it might not go away in 2 minutes, but it begins to relax
(53:50):
at dissipate. And so, rather than being the
person who has to fix it, would become the person who makes
space for the heart, the mind. To relax and settle away itself.
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