In this deeply honest conversation, we hear from senior executive James Copsey working at the highest levels of corporate affairs - a space known for its relentless pace, complexity, and high expectations.
But beneath the external success was a personal struggle he could no longer keep quiet. He shares the moment he realised drinking had become a problem, the decision to stop, and how telling the truth about his mental health became a turning point - not just in his personal life, but in how he shows up as a leader.
This episode is a powerful reflection on what it means to drop the mask in a world that rewards control, and how choosing honesty can be the most strategic move of all.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I Kick a break.
We have an. Aversion to.
Ourselves and to what's happening inside us, inside us.
(00:26):
I've been very interested in this problem for a long long
time. Something settles.
Welcome back to Hard on My Sleeve podcasts.
Today we're talking about something rarely spoken of.
What happens when a leader at the very top of their game
realises that the internal truthis no longer matching the
(00:48):
external image? My guest today, James Copsy, is
phenomenal, the Head of Corporate Affairs for one of
Australia's most major organisations.
As Head of Corporate Affairs at KPMG Australia, James is
responsible for overseeing the firm's voice, reputation and
impact. James is a member of the KPMG
(01:09):
International Corporate Affairs Steering Group and serves as a
partner at KPMG Australia. James, you previously held the
position of Lead Partner for Government and Regulatory
Affairs at KPMG Australia, was the Head of Government and
Industry Engagement at AustraliaPost and worked in corporate
affairs at the National Australia Bank, Some very
(01:29):
significant large roles. Your experience also includes
advising a State Premier and Federal Member of Parliament.
James's world is defined by complexity, scrutiny and speed,
and the expectation to always becomposed, always be in control
and always be on. But earlier in his career,
(01:52):
behind the scenes, James was managing a private struggle.
There came a point when he recognised that there was a
coping mechanism that had becomea problem and the moment he
decided to stop becoming a turning point, not just in
James's personal life, but in how he leads at the highest
level. James, thank you for being here
(02:14):
today and for your willingness to go into a topic many leaders
never speak about. Thank you very much, Laney.
Thanks for having me. I'm a big fan of the podcast, so
good to be here. Wonderful James, you lead one of
the most pressured, visible and strategically critical functions
in any organisation, corporate affairs.
Let's start there. For those who don't see behind
(02:35):
the curtain, what does the worldof a head of a corporate affairs
actually look like day to day? So Corporate Affairs at KPMG is
responsible for helping our organisation meet it's ambition
of being the most trusted and trustworthy firm in Australia.
And what does that mean? It means managing a a a team of
committed individuals across a number of areas.
(02:57):
The public affairs space, so ourmanagement of government and
regulatory stakeholders, the communication space.
So how do we communicate with external stakeholders, how do we
communicate with our people and our partners?
And then the work we do across community and sustainability
reporting as well. The the nature of that type of
work is that it is always on. So there is a a high intensity
(03:19):
baseload that sits underneath that work.
And that's very familiar to me in terms of the roles that I've
worked out in politics and otherorganisations across the
country. I'm a bit of a always on
individual, so it does suit my personality, but as we'll
explore today, some of the things that have helped me sort
of maintain the edifice of that sort of exterior have not always
(03:42):
been as healthy as they could have been.
Yeah, absolutely, and we will get into that today for sure.
James, in roles like yours, pressure is almost normalised.
Good work is good for people, I often say that.
But what does pressure look likefor you, both professionally and
personally in a healthy sense? Yeah.
Look, I think pressure is a goodthing.
(04:02):
I think pressure can help bring out the best in people.
It helps bring out the best in me.
It's when that pressure becomes stressed that I think you need
to start to think about whether it's healthy or not.
And for me, pressure is meeting all the commitments across my
life. You know, I'm a, I'm a father of
two young children. I'm married to my beautiful wife
Elise. I'm a member of a, a large
(04:23):
family and then professionally I'm the head of corporate
affairs at KPMG Australia. So there's a pressure in meeting
the obligations of all those different aspects of my life.
And it's how do I help manage that presses so it's sustainable
and leads to good outcomes and doesn't become sort of unhealthy
stress, which it has at other parts of my career over the
(04:43):
journey. Yeah, for sure.
Well explained and we'll get into other parts of your career
as part of your story shortly. But before anything changed,
what was the image you were projecting to the world and did
it match how you were feeling internally?
Yes, I used to work in politics.I now work in corporate affairs.
There's a lot of similarities across the two and it's about
(05:06):
showing up and being confident and and being in control when
sometimes the world around you is not in control at all.
So I've always sort of had the ability to show up in pretty
stressful, intense moments and give that perception that things
are under control. But at various ages in my
career, underneath the surface, they haven't been.
And I know we're going to explore some of them today,
(05:29):
Laney. Yeah, for sure.
And you've built a career on being in control of the
narrative, James, internally andexternally also, you thought.
But at some point that internal narrative shifted.
So could you talk us through themoment you realise that the
habit we've been talking through, drinking or unhealthy
drinking, became more of a coping mechanism rather
(05:50):
something that was more of something controlled socially?
What was the moment that finallycut through for you?
I remember the moment when it finally cut through for me very,
very, very well, like it was yesterday, and I'll come to that
in a moment. I think now, upon reflection, it
had been unhealthy for a very sustained period of time and I
had just not recognise that or pulled the pieces together.
(06:12):
But I remember it was my very new wife who, who said to me in
early 2015 that I perhaps shouldthink about having a break from
drinking, proved to myself that I didn't need it as part of my
life. And it began as a one week
challenge, that became a month, that became six months, that
became a year. And I'm really proud to sit here
now and say that it's 10 1/2 years ago since I had a drink of
(06:35):
alcohol. But if I look back now, there
was a long period in my life before that where it was
incredibly unhealthy. I just did not realise the
impact it was having on me. And now as a dad and as a
successful professional, I'm glad I made those changes
because I don't think I'd be able to achieve all those things
I have. I would like to say, though,
(06:56):
that I don't have an issue with people drinking or drinking in
general. It just didn't work for me.
I've never said I won't ever have a drink again.
I probably won't, but I've just never put that pressure on me.
It's just something that at the point in time was not proving an
effective mechanism for me. And so I removed it from my life
(07:17):
and replaced it with some other things.
Yeah, as a as a lifestyle changeor a lifestyle choice if you
like, as a senior leader saying I need to stop, whatever that
might be, James, it's massive, not least because of identity
and expectation. But what emotions came up for
you at that point in time? I was really lucky at the time
(07:38):
because the the person that raised it with me was my wife.
Just proud of that. Now that I reflect upon it, one
of my best friends had also raised it with me, but both were
people that came from a place ofgreat affection for me, so there
was no sense of feeling threatened by what they were
raising. I think more generally though,
it did make me feel quite defensive because I was of this
(08:01):
view that I'd had this very successful career and I'd shown
up for it, etcetera. It was all kind of perfect.
So to have a bit of a chink in that armour did make me feel
quite vulnerable. But I think because it was
raised in that safe space. And I think This is why it's so
important to talk about creatingthese safe spaces for
individuals. Because I think you then have
the the ability to kind of let it sink in and actually think
(08:24):
about it for a little bit ratherthan defensively sort of rebut
it or push it away. So I was very fortunate in terms
of the environment it was raisedwith me in.
Yeah, that you were and that wasthe first step, I guess.
But then when it came to tellingpeople beyond Elise and and your
best friend, so colleagues or orfriends more broadly extended
(08:44):
family, what was that moment of honesty like for you, James?
I was pretty interesting. So we're talking 10 1/2 years
ago and and Australia's come a very long place in how it deals
with things like drinking. If you think about the
prevalence of 0 alcohol now as the fastest growing drink sort
of product in Australia, that wasn't the case 10 1/2 years
ago. So I'd sort of break it into a
(09:06):
couple of categories. I remember the first group of
people I told was my friendship group and my family, and they
were incredibly supportive. They sort of went out of their
way to create a safe environmentfor me so I could sort of tackle
this head on. And they used to sort of almost
put up a bit of a protective mechanism around me.
There were some other people that I told that we're really
quite taken aback. Why would a male in his late 20s
(09:29):
in modern Australia not want to drink?
What was wrong with you? They used to say to me.
And I sort of drifted away from them.
And that sort of is a whole different story in itself.
The other group of people that Inow regularly tell once a year
is I do share it on my LinkedIn and I've had a few people ask me
what you know, why do you do that?
And I do it for a few reasons. One, I do it to keep myself
(09:50):
accountable. It's a goal I drive towards
every year. The second reason is it sparks
conversations. And I won't go into any specific
details here at all, but I have had very senior political
figures, sporting figures and business figures reach out to me
following those LinkedIn posts to discuss their own one journey
(10:10):
with being sober. Secondly, their own challenges
with drinking. And could they have a chat about
how I went about it? Even last night, a very senior
media figure texted me to say, look, I just wanted to let you
know after a couple of years about chatting it with you, I
finally decided to have a break from drinking.
And you're being a bit of a rolemodel for me in that regard.
So I think if it if it ignites afew conversations like that, I'm
(10:35):
I'm happy to put up with the people.
I think those individuals that might sort of dismiss it or make
different remarks about it, I think that probably speaks more
to a level of challenge that they have inside themselves.
Very well said James. When you look back, what was
going on for you mentally or even emotionally that no one
else would have seen? Like you said, have it all
(10:56):
together on the outside, show up, work and run at pace.
When you look back and think back to that particular point in
time when you were drinking as away to cope, what do you think?
What's going on for you internally that no one would
have seen? Oh, look, I was heavily
stressed. I had sort of, you know, very
(11:16):
challenging anxiety that I was dealing with, and very few
people knew that. Very people often say to me in
highly stressful situations, oh,you seem like you've got it all
under control. That's a wonderful thing.
I, I appreciate that. And in a sense I do what I can
to do that now in a healthy way.But a decade or so ago that
wasn't the case at all. Usually there was a paper in
(11:39):
over those issues and, and I wasn't listening to my body.
I wasn't listening to the the kind of warning signs that were
ringing pretty loudly at that point in time.
You made a deliberate choice to stop drinking, but also, as you
mentioned, to talk about it, to talk about why, to Share your
story and openly and quite generously have the one on one
(11:59):
conversations for those that that reach out to you.
When you finally voiced the truth, what shifted for you?
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And they're sort of the immediate term physical benefits
that you feel, but you get kind of used to them and they become
a little bit BAU. So for me it's it would be the
clarity, the clarity of decisionmaking, the clarity of being
(12:22):
able to approach stress and sortof resilience management, et
cetera. There are the things, those are
the things that have stuck with me over the long term.
But it can be, it can be challenging as well because we
live such a fast paced life thatthe changes that you experience
become quite normalised. So you do need to be able to
remind yourself about what thosechanges are.
(12:44):
And that's why I keep myself accountable with milestones
etcetera, just to kind of sit back and reflect and go.
That's actually a significant achievement.
I remember once I decided to go without drinking and I lasted 3
days, so I've now done 10 1/2 years.
So, you know, it's not insignificant and I need to
recognise that as an achievementas well.
(13:04):
Absolutely. And you know, there's actually
data behind when you publicly commit to something that you're
automatically more accountable to it because you've shared it
in in more of a intentional way.Thinking about how you lead or
how you lead differently with regards to your lifestyle
changes and choices, how do you feel that that's changed the way
(13:28):
you lead in a role where clarity, discipline and pressure
is everything or managing pressure effectively is
everything? How would you say?
You've mentioned some of it already.
How would you say that changes how you lead?
Yeah. Look, from a simple mechanism
point of view, I don't think I'dbe able to lead in the various
personal and professional roles I have now without this change.
(13:50):
That's just something that I know within myself.
But I, I think that clarity of leadership and that sort of
openness to vulnerability is a really powerful thing from a
leadership point of view in terms of inspiring teams and
bringing them with you and helping create an environment
where people feel safe to be authentic and be themselves in
(14:11):
the workplace. That's a huge part of how I lead
now. You know, leading is not so much
about the doing of the differentjobs.
It's about bringing people together collectively with a
shared ambition. And I think that clarity of
purpose and thinking that I havenow allows me to do that in a in
a much more meaningful way than I might have been able to do a
decade or so ago. Yeah, and I guess I have the the
(14:35):
liberty of of watching you lead a very awesome team within KPMG
and and even had the privilege to to work with you on a number
of our task force as well. So not only that, you know,
honesty that you bring in every conversation, that confidence in
how you instil that around you, but that genuine human
vulnerability should I've been able to experience that myself.
(14:57):
James, so much of what you've described does link back to the
brain. Chronic stress, coping loops and
the moment the nervous system kind of forced to hold for you.
When you look back, what were the signs your body or brain was
sending before your mind caught up?
Often as high performers, we ignore those signs and think
(15:18):
that our well being can wait because we need to perform,
perform, perform, not without realising that they need to go
hand in glove, which you obviously know now.
But when you look back, what were the signs that your body or
brain sending you before you realise that you needed to
really pivot? Yeah, look, I think at the time
I wasn't listening to the signs.And I think things like my
(15:38):
resilience was very low, gettingsick quite often, being quite
sort of physically unhealthy. And I think now I understand the
linkage to our physical, betweenour physical and our mental
health a lot more now than I used to.
But back in the day, it just wasn't something we spoke about.
There's so much more research now and maybe it was always
there and I'm just more open to reading it and sharing it now.
(16:00):
But you know, 10 or so years ago, working in a senior
political role, they weren't thetype of discussions you had.
It was about getting on and getting things done.
And that was the that was the way I approached things.
So I probably didn't understand those warning signs much at all.
Yeah, for sure. And you know, I'll probably
challenge you a little bit and say that I think the stigma's
(16:21):
still there, particularly for men in society and we are in
November and November specifically.
But I, I do think that you continuing to normalise the
conversation, James, particularly around what we've
been talking about is critical for all genders, but
specifically when we're talking about vulnerability and what
that means, how you can continueto, you know, deliver to a high
(16:44):
standard, but also acknowledge that you don't always have it
right yourself and how you've had to readjust your style.
So I just wanted to highlight that and thank you for calling
that out for someone listening who's quietly struggling,
whether that's a leader or not, whether it's leading themselves
or whether it's leading others in which I think you do so
(17:05):
effectively. Whether they've got a problem, a
lifestyle choice, a habit, whether it's pressure or whether
they're just wearing the mask that they need to think about
dropping in order to step into how they can have that courage
to do different things and lead in different ways.
Or, you know, as cliche as it sounds, James, if you could talk
(17:26):
to your younger self 10 years ago, what would you have wanted
to hear back then? Based on your own experience,
what are your wise words? I'll look at a couple of things.
It's a great question. I think the first thing I'd say
is everyone has challenges. Everyone in their life has
unique challenges. So there's that great saying
about, you know, be really kind to people.
(17:47):
You don't know what they're going through.
And that that is something that I carry with me because I think
no matter how powerful successful someone looks on the
exterior, they're, they're battling different things at
different times as well. The other thing I'd say is
there's a lot of pressure on us in society to be a great parent,
to be a great partner, to be a great professional.
(18:07):
And they're, they're all important things.
But I think to do any of those things or to do those things
collectively, you do need to look after yourself both from a
physical and mental point of view.
And often I think we put that thing last after the other
things, whereas potentially it should actually be the driver
that helps you achieve those other things.
So being a little bit focused onthat to allow you to achieve
(18:28):
those other things, I think is apowerful tool as well that I
would. I would sort of, I wish I'd sort
of understood that a little bit more when I was younger.
Yeah. And you know, we often have
conversations around leading with clarity and leading with
calm. And I think some of the examples
that you've shared in how you now ground yourself and anchor
yourself in order to show up evative, it is in times of
(18:51):
demand or high pressure and being able to do that in a way
that's calm so that the ship that you're steering doesn't
feel so rocky, even when the external environment, which is
outside of our control, can be. So I definitely think leading
with calm is something that you walk the talk on like all the
time. And, and part of why I wanted
(19:11):
you to to join on this podcast. Any other final tips if we're
thinking about leading with calm?
How do you lead with calm, James?
I think we we spoke about it earlier and that is all leaders
are human beings. So, you know, we are human
beings first, but the people youdeal with are human beings as
well. So I think before you head into
(19:33):
that potentially stressful situation, just understanding
you're dealing with a bunch of humans that have their own sort
of, they got out of bed in the morning as well and had to
figure out what to have for breakfast and all that type of
stuff. I think once you do that, it
kind of just levels things a little bit.
And the other thing I'd I'd say is it's a great piece of advice
(19:53):
our CEO Andrew Yates actually gives a KPMG, which is things
are often not as good as they appear and sometimes they're not
as bad as they appear as well. And just having that sort of,
you know, continuum through the middle, I think is a really
powerful thing. That doesn't mean we shouldn't
focus on things and they go wrong, and we shouldn't
celebrate successes, but just being a little bit more even
(20:15):
keeled about how we approach thekind of.
The roller coaster that is life,I think he's just more
sustainable than riding the highs and lows all the time.
So it's just some helpful advicethat I've picked up along the
way. Yeah, it's great.
And some to quote you back James, I know you have have said
to me before nobody wakes up predominantly to do a bad job.
(20:41):
So I think starting by that point, which is really I think
what you're saying around the human centredness of
understanding that humans come to work and everybody wants to
do a good job and everybody has their own story.
So I know that's something that you often lead by in your day to
day and it shows. James, thank you.
The courage you speak is so powerful.
(21:04):
Not only is obviously the head of corporate affairs at KPMG
Australia, but as a father, as ahusband, as a friend, as a son,
as a brother and somebody that'soperating at the very top, it's
significant. Your story reminds us that
senior leadership isn't about the perfect image, it's about
alignment. It's about truth, vulnerability.
(21:27):
Some of the Nuggets that you shared today, and sometimes the
most strategic move a leader canmake, like yourself, James, is
to stop to tell the truth, be honest, and let something go in
order to lead differently. James, thank you so very much
for being here today, and thank you, as always for leading by
example. Thank you very much Laney and
(21:48):
thank you to everything that youdo at KPMG and also to Homs and
the team as well. Really appreciate all the great
work you do and it was great to join you.
Thank you. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced.
And so if there's more thoughts,more stories, more intentions
come along. So the act of how am I leaving
(22:10):
it alone is an act of not act, adding more stories, adding fuel
to it. So it might not go away in 2
minutes, but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix it, we've
become the person who makes space for the heart, the mind,
to relax and settle away itself.
All right, run it. I wonder what you mean when you
use the word I use the word I, I, I, I Kick a break.
We have an. Aversion to.
Ourselves and to what's happening inside us, inside us.
(00:26):
I've been very interested in this problem for a long long
time. Something settles.
Welcome back to Hard on My Sleeve podcasts.
Today we're talking about something rarely spoken of.
What happens when a leader at the very top of their game
realises that the internal truthis no longer matching the
(00:48):
external image? My guest today, James Copsy, is
phenomenal, the Head of Corporate Affairs for one of
Australia's most major organisations.
As Head of Corporate Affairs at KPMG Australia, James is
responsible for overseeing the firm's voice, reputation and
impact. James is a member of the KPMG
(01:09):
International Corporate Affairs Steering Group and serves as a
partner at KPMG Australia. James, you previously held the
position of Lead Partner for Government and Regulatory
Affairs at KPMG Australia, was the Head of Government and
Industry Engagement at AustraliaPost and worked in corporate
affairs at the National Australia Bank, Some very
(01:29):
significant large roles. Your experience also includes
advising a State Premier and Federal Member of Parliament.
James's world is defined by complexity, scrutiny and speed,
and the expectation to always becomposed, always be in control
and always be on. But earlier in his career,
(01:52):
behind the scenes, James was managing a private struggle.
There came a point when he recognised that there was a
coping mechanism that had becomea problem and the moment he
decided to stop becoming a turning point, not just in
James's personal life, but in how he leads at the highest
level. James, thank you for being here
(02:14):
today and for your willingness to go into a topic many leaders
never speak about. Thank you very much, Laney.
Thanks for having me. I'm a big fan of the podcast, so
good to be here. Wonderful James, you lead one of
the most pressured, visible and strategically critical functions
in any organisation, corporate affairs.
Let's start there. For those who don't see behind
(02:35):
the curtain, what does the worldof a head of a corporate affairs
actually look like day to day? So Corporate Affairs at KPMG is
responsible for helping our organisation meet it's ambition
of being the most trusted and trustworthy firm in Australia.
And what does that mean? It means managing a a a team of
committed individuals across a number of areas.
(02:57):
The public affairs space, so ourmanagement of government and
regulatory stakeholders, the communication space.
So how do we communicate with external stakeholders, how do we
communicate with our people and our partners?
And then the work we do across community and sustainability
reporting as well. The the nature of that type of
work is that it is always on. So there is a a high intensity
(03:19):
baseload that sits underneath that work.
And that's very familiar to me in terms of the roles that I've
worked out in politics and otherorganisations across the
country. I'm a bit of a always on
individual, so it does suit my personality, but as we'll
explore today, some of the things that have helped me sort
of maintain the edifice of that sort of exterior have not always
(03:42):
been as healthy as they could have been.
Yeah, absolutely, and we will get into that today for sure.
James, in roles like yours, pressure is almost normalised.
Good work is good for people, I often say that.
But what does pressure look likefor you, both professionally and
personally in a healthy sense? Yeah.
Look, I think pressure is a goodthing.
(04:02):
I think pressure can help bring out the best in people.
It helps bring out the best in me.
It's when that pressure becomes stressed that I think you need
to start to think about whether it's healthy or not.
And for me, pressure is meeting all the commitments across my
life. You know, I'm a, I'm a father of
two young children. I'm married to my beautiful wife
Elise. I'm a member of a, a large
(04:23):
family and then professionally I'm the head of corporate
affairs at KPMG Australia. So there's a pressure in meeting
the obligations of all those different aspects of my life.
And it's how do I help manage that presses so it's sustainable
and leads to good outcomes and doesn't become sort of unhealthy
stress, which it has at other parts of my career over the
(04:43):
journey. Yeah, for sure.
Well explained and we'll get into other parts of your career
as part of your story shortly. But before anything changed,
what was the image you were projecting to the world and did
it match how you were feeling internally?
Yes, I used to work in politics.I now work in corporate affairs.
There's a lot of similarities across the two and it's about
(05:06):
showing up and being confident and and being in control when
sometimes the world around you is not in control at all.
So I've always sort of had the ability to show up in pretty
stressful, intense moments and give that perception that things
are under control. But at various ages in my
career, underneath the surface, they haven't been.
And I know we're going to explore some of them today,
(05:29):
Laney. Yeah, for sure.
And you've built a career on being in control of the
narrative, James, internally andexternally also, you thought.
But at some point that internal narrative shifted.
So could you talk us through themoment you realise that the
habit we've been talking through, drinking or unhealthy
drinking, became more of a coping mechanism rather
(05:50):
something that was more of something controlled socially?
What was the moment that finallycut through for you?
I remember the moment when it finally cut through for me very,
very, very well, like it was yesterday, and I'll come to that
in a moment. I think now, upon reflection, it
had been unhealthy for a very sustained period of time and I
had just not recognise that or pulled the pieces together.
(06:12):
But I remember it was my very new wife who, who said to me in
early 2015 that I perhaps shouldthink about having a break from
drinking, proved to myself that I didn't need it as part of my
life. And it began as a one week
challenge, that became a month, that became six months, that
became a year. And I'm really proud to sit here
now and say that it's 10 1/2 years ago since I had a drink of
(06:35):
alcohol. But if I look back now, there
was a long period in my life before that where it was
incredibly unhealthy. I just did not realise the
impact it was having on me. And now as a dad and as a
successful professional, I'm glad I made those changes
because I don't think I'd be able to achieve all those things
I have. I would like to say, though,
(06:56):
that I don't have an issue with people drinking or drinking in
general. It just didn't work for me.
I've never said I won't ever have a drink again.
I probably won't, but I've just never put that pressure on me.
It's just something that at the point in time was not proving an
effective mechanism for me. And so I removed it from my life
(07:17):
and replaced it with some other things.
Yeah, as a as a lifestyle changeor a lifestyle choice if you
like, as a senior leader saying I need to stop, whatever that
might be, James, it's massive, not least because of identity
and expectation. But what emotions came up for
you at that point in time? I was really lucky at the time
(07:38):
because the the person that raised it with me was my wife.
Just proud of that. Now that I reflect upon it, one
of my best friends had also raised it with me, but both were
people that came from a place ofgreat affection for me, so there
was no sense of feeling threatened by what they were
raising. I think more generally though,
it did make me feel quite defensive because I was of this
(08:01):
view that I'd had this very successful career and I'd shown
up for it, etcetera. It was all kind of perfect.
So to have a bit of a chink in that armour did make me feel
quite vulnerable. But I think because it was
raised in that safe space. And I think This is why it's so
important to talk about creatingthese safe spaces for
individuals. Because I think you then have
the the ability to kind of let it sink in and actually think
(08:24):
about it for a little bit ratherthan defensively sort of rebut
it or push it away. So I was very fortunate in terms
of the environment it was raisedwith me in.
Yeah, that you were and that wasthe first step, I guess.
But then when it came to tellingpeople beyond Elise and and your
best friend, so colleagues or orfriends more broadly extended
(08:44):
family, what was that moment of honesty like for you, James?
I was pretty interesting. So we're talking 10 1/2 years
ago and and Australia's come a very long place in how it deals
with things like drinking. If you think about the
prevalence of 0 alcohol now as the fastest growing drink sort
of product in Australia, that wasn't the case 10 1/2 years
ago. So I'd sort of break it into a
(09:06):
couple of categories. I remember the first group of
people I told was my friendship group and my family, and they
were incredibly supportive. They sort of went out of their
way to create a safe environmentfor me so I could sort of tackle
this head on. And they used to sort of almost
put up a bit of a protective mechanism around me.
There were some other people that I told that we're really
quite taken aback. Why would a male in his late 20s
(09:29):
in modern Australia not want to drink?
What was wrong with you? They used to say to me.
And I sort of drifted away from them.
And that sort of is a whole different story in itself.
The other group of people that Inow regularly tell once a year
is I do share it on my LinkedIn and I've had a few people ask me
what you know, why do you do that?
And I do it for a few reasons. One, I do it to keep myself
(09:50):
accountable. It's a goal I drive towards
every year. The second reason is it sparks
conversations. And I won't go into any specific
details here at all, but I have had very senior political
figures, sporting figures and business figures reach out to me
following those LinkedIn posts to discuss their own one journey
(10:10):
with being sober. Secondly, their own challenges
with drinking. And could they have a chat about
how I went about it? Even last night, a very senior
media figure texted me to say, look, I just wanted to let you
know after a couple of years about chatting it with you, I
finally decided to have a break from drinking.
And you're being a bit of a rolemodel for me in that regard.
So I think if it if it ignites afew conversations like that, I'm
(10:35):
I'm happy to put up with the people.
I think those individuals that might sort of dismiss it or make
different remarks about it, I think that probably speaks more
to a level of challenge that they have inside themselves.
Very well said James. When you look back, what was
going on for you mentally or even emotionally that no one
else would have seen? Like you said, have it all
(10:56):
together on the outside, show up, work and run at pace.
When you look back and think back to that particular point in
time when you were drinking as away to cope, what do you think?
What's going on for you internally that no one would
have seen? Oh, look, I was heavily
stressed. I had sort of, you know, very
(11:16):
challenging anxiety that I was dealing with, and very few
people knew that. Very people often say to me in
highly stressful situations, oh,you seem like you've got it all
under control. That's a wonderful thing.
I, I appreciate that. And in a sense I do what I can
to do that now in a healthy way.But a decade or so ago that
wasn't the case at all. Usually there was a paper in
(11:39):
over those issues and, and I wasn't listening to my body.
I wasn't listening to the the kind of warning signs that were
ringing pretty loudly at that point in time.
You made a deliberate choice to stop drinking, but also, as you
mentioned, to talk about it, to talk about why, to Share your
story and openly and quite generously have the one on one
(11:59):
conversations for those that that reach out to you.
When you finally voiced the truth, what shifted for you?
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And they're sort of the immediate term physical benefits
that you feel, but you get kind of used to them and they become
a little bit BAU. So for me it's it would be the
clarity, the clarity of decisionmaking, the clarity of being
(12:22):
able to approach stress and sortof resilience management, et
cetera. There are the things, those are
the things that have stuck with me over the long term.
But it can be, it can be challenging as well because we
live such a fast paced life thatthe changes that you experience
become quite normalised. So you do need to be able to
remind yourself about what thosechanges are.
(12:44):
And that's why I keep myself accountable with milestones
etcetera, just to kind of sit back and reflect and go.
That's actually a significant achievement.
I remember once I decided to go without drinking and I lasted 3
days, so I've now done 10 1/2 years.
So, you know, it's not insignificant and I need to
recognise that as an achievementas well.
(13:04):
Absolutely. And you know, there's actually
data behind when you publicly commit to something that you're
automatically more accountable to it because you've shared it
in in more of a intentional way.Thinking about how you lead or
how you lead differently with regards to your lifestyle
changes and choices, how do you feel that that's changed the way
(13:28):
you lead in a role where clarity, discipline and pressure
is everything or managing pressure effectively is
everything? How would you say?
You've mentioned some of it already.
How would you say that changes how you lead?
Yeah. Look, from a simple mechanism
point of view, I don't think I'dbe able to lead in the various
personal and professional roles I have now without this change.
(13:50):
That's just something that I know within myself.
But I, I think that clarity of leadership and that sort of
openness to vulnerability is a really powerful thing from a
leadership point of view in terms of inspiring teams and
bringing them with you and helping create an environment
where people feel safe to be authentic and be themselves in
(14:11):
the workplace. That's a huge part of how I lead
now. You know, leading is not so much
about the doing of the differentjobs.
It's about bringing people together collectively with a
shared ambition. And I think that clarity of
purpose and thinking that I havenow allows me to do that in a in
a much more meaningful way than I might have been able to do a
decade or so ago. Yeah, and I guess I have the the
(14:35):
liberty of of watching you lead a very awesome team within KPMG
and and even had the privilege to to work with you on a number
of our task force as well. So not only that, you know,
honesty that you bring in every conversation, that confidence in
how you instil that around you, but that genuine human
vulnerability should I've been able to experience that myself.
(14:57):
James, so much of what you've described does link back to the
brain. Chronic stress, coping loops and
the moment the nervous system kind of forced to hold for you.
When you look back, what were the signs your body or brain was
sending before your mind caught up?
Often as high performers, we ignore those signs and think
(15:18):
that our well being can wait because we need to perform,
perform, perform, not without realising that they need to go
hand in glove, which you obviously know now.
But when you look back, what were the signs that your body or
brain sending you before you realise that you needed to
really pivot? Yeah, look, I think at the time
I wasn't listening to the signs.And I think things like my
(15:38):
resilience was very low, gettingsick quite often, being quite
sort of physically unhealthy. And I think now I understand the
linkage to our physical, betweenour physical and our mental
health a lot more now than I used to.
But back in the day, it just wasn't something we spoke about.
There's so much more research now and maybe it was always
there and I'm just more open to reading it and sharing it now.
(16:00):
But you know, 10 or so years ago, working in a senior
political role, they weren't thetype of discussions you had.
It was about getting on and getting things done.
And that was the that was the way I approached things.
So I probably didn't understand those warning signs much at all.
Yeah, for sure. And you know, I'll probably
challenge you a little bit and say that I think the stigma's
(16:21):
still there, particularly for men in society and we are in
November and November specifically.
But I, I do think that you continuing to normalise the
conversation, James, particularly around what we've
been talking about is critical for all genders, but
specifically when we're talking about vulnerability and what
that means, how you can continueto, you know, deliver to a high
(16:44):
standard, but also acknowledge that you don't always have it
right yourself and how you've had to readjust your style.
So I just wanted to highlight that and thank you for calling
that out for someone listening who's quietly struggling,
whether that's a leader or not, whether it's leading themselves
or whether it's leading others in which I think you do so
(17:05):
effectively. Whether they've got a problem, a
lifestyle choice, a habit, whether it's pressure or whether
they're just wearing the mask that they need to think about
dropping in order to step into how they can have that courage
to do different things and lead in different ways.
Or, you know, as cliche as it sounds, James, if you could talk
(17:26):
to your younger self 10 years ago, what would you have wanted
to hear back then? Based on your own experience,
what are your wise words? I'll look at a couple of things.
It's a great question. I think the first thing I'd say
is everyone has challenges. Everyone in their life has
unique challenges. So there's that great saying
about, you know, be really kind to people.
(17:47):
You don't know what they're going through.
And that that is something that I carry with me because I think
no matter how powerful successful someone looks on the
exterior, they're, they're battling different things at
different times as well. The other thing I'd say is
there's a lot of pressure on us in society to be a great parent,
to be a great partner, to be a great professional.
(18:07):
And they're, they're all important things.
But I think to do any of those things or to do those things
collectively, you do need to look after yourself both from a
physical and mental point of view.
And often I think we put that thing last after the other
things, whereas potentially it should actually be the driver
that helps you achieve those other things.
So being a little bit focused onthat to allow you to achieve
(18:28):
those other things, I think is apowerful tool as well that I
would. I would sort of, I wish I'd sort
of understood that a little bit more when I was younger.
Yeah. And you know, we often have
conversations around leading with clarity and leading with
calm. And I think some of the examples
that you've shared in how you now ground yourself and anchor
yourself in order to show up evative, it is in times of
(18:51):
demand or high pressure and being able to do that in a way
that's calm so that the ship that you're steering doesn't
feel so rocky, even when the external environment, which is
outside of our control, can be. So I definitely think leading
with calm is something that you walk the talk on like all the
time. And, and part of why I wanted
(19:11):
you to to join on this podcast. Any other final tips if we're
thinking about leading with calm?
How do you lead with calm, James?
I think we we spoke about it earlier and that is all leaders
are human beings. So, you know, we are human
beings first, but the people youdeal with are human beings as
well. So I think before you head into
(19:33):
that potentially stressful situation, just understanding
you're dealing with a bunch of humans that have their own sort
of, they got out of bed in the morning as well and had to
figure out what to have for breakfast and all that type of
stuff. I think once you do that, it
kind of just levels things a little bit.
And the other thing I'd I'd say is it's a great piece of advice
(19:53):
our CEO Andrew Yates actually gives a KPMG, which is things
are often not as good as they appear and sometimes they're not
as bad as they appear as well. And just having that sort of,
you know, continuum through the middle, I think is a really
powerful thing. That doesn't mean we shouldn't
focus on things and they go wrong, and we shouldn't
celebrate successes, but just being a little bit more even
(20:15):
keeled about how we approach thekind of.
The roller coaster that is life,I think he's just more
sustainable than riding the highs and lows all the time.
So it's just some helpful advicethat I've picked up along the
way. Yeah, it's great.
And some to quote you back James, I know you have have said
to me before nobody wakes up predominantly to do a bad job.
(20:41):
So I think starting by that point, which is really I think
what you're saying around the human centredness of
understanding that humans come to work and everybody wants to
do a good job and everybody has their own story.
So I know that's something that you often lead by in your day to
day and it shows. James, thank you.
The courage you speak is so powerful.
(21:04):
Not only is obviously the head of corporate affairs at KPMG
Australia, but as a father, as ahusband, as a friend, as a son,
as a brother and somebody that'soperating at the very top, it's
significant. Your story reminds us that
senior leadership isn't about the perfect image, it's about
alignment. It's about truth, vulnerability.
(21:27):
Some of the Nuggets that you shared today, and sometimes the
most strategic move a leader canmake, like yourself, James, is
to stop to tell the truth, be honest, and let something go in
order to lead differently. James, thank you so very much
for being here today, and thank you, as always for leading by
example. Thank you very much Laney and
(21:48):
thank you to everything that youdo at KPMG and also to Homs and
the team as well. Really appreciate all the great
work you do and it was great to join you.
Thank you. Emotions have a natural tendency
to dissipate unless they get reinforced.
And so if there's more thoughts,more stories, more intentions
come along. So the act of how am I leaving
(22:10):
it alone is an act of not act, adding more stories, adding fuel
to it. So it might not go away in 2
minutes, but it then begins to relax and dissipate.
And so rather than being the person who has to fix it, we've
become the person who makes space for the heart, the mind,
to relax and settle away itself.
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