February 25, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode of Heart to Hustle, my former professor Mneesha Gellman, an influential figure in education and social justice, explains how her lifelong activism led her to found the Emerson Prison Initiative (EPI), a program at Emerson College dedicated to bringing higher education to incarcerated individuals at the Massachusetts Correctional Institution - Norfolk (MCI Norfolk). Drawing on her extensive experience in education and advocacy, Mneesha discusses overcoming challenges like technological barriers in prisons and outdated curricula in schools, offering innovative strategies that empower marginalized communities and drive meaningful change. She also highlights how providing higher education in prisons transforms lives and reinforces the mission that education is a fundamental right for all, paving the way for societal reintegration and lasting reform.
About Mneesha Gellman: Mneesha Gellman is Associate Professor of Political Science in the Institute for Liberal Arts and Interdisciplinary Studies, at Emerson College, Boston, USA. Her research interests include comparative democratization, cultural resilience, memory politics, and social movements in the Global South and the United States. She is also the founder and Director of the Emerson Prison Initiative, which brings a BA pathway to incarcerated students in Massachusetts.
About the Emerson Prison Initiative (EPI): Emerson College launched the Emerson Prison Initiative (EPI) in 2017 at the Massachusetts Correctional Institution at Concord (MCI-Concord), a men’s medium-security prison. EPI acts on the knowledge that college-in-prison programs can interrupt the cycle of incarceration. EPI offers the same courses taught on Emerson’s main campus, taught by Emerson faculty as well as guest faculty from other local colleges, and bearing official Emerson credits. EPI provides a pathway to an Emerson College Bachelor of Arts in Media, Literature, and Culture, a degree that combines Emerson’s unique strengths in media studies, literary studies, and the liberal arts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Have you ever had a side hustle, a side gig you
picked up for fun or maybe toearn a little extra cash?
Maybe you had a lemonade standas a kid or, like me, were fully
immersed in the world oftheater and dance, where each
experience ignited my passionfor the spotlight.
As we transition from thoseearly experiences into the
(00:24):
professional world, some sidegigs evolve into real passions
and sometimes even lastingcareers.
I've always been so curiousabout these stories, especially
the less conventional journeysthat redefine what a career can
look like.
They remind us that successisn't always a straight path and
that the heart behind ourhustle can lead us to unexpected
(00:46):
and fulfilling destinations.
I genuinely love exploring howother people's passions have
shaped their careers.
If you're into that too, joinme, layla Palmer, as I chat with
a captivating lineup of guestsfrom various industries to
uncover how they went from heartto hustle.
Imagine being in a classroomwhere education is more than
(01:09):
just a degree.
It's a second chance, a toolfor empowerment and sometimes
the first real opportunity to beheard.
That's the kind of impacttoday's guest, minnie Shigelman,
is making.
She was my professor for humanrights, a class that explored
the fight for justice, dignityand equality.
(01:30):
But Manisha doesn't just studythese issues, she acts on them.
She's bringing the classroomitself into prisons, ensuring
that higher education isn't justfor the privileged few but for
those who have been shut out bycircumstance, by systemic
barriers, by a society that toooften denies second chances.
(01:51):
Through the Emerson PrisonInitiative, she's proving that
education is a fundamental right, pushing forward with the
belief that knowledge is one ofthe most powerful tools for
transformation.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's really also such apleasure to reconnect with
former students and see theamazing creative things that
people are doing with theirskills, so it's wonderful to be
here with you.
I grew up in rural far NorthernCalifornia and I came of age
during the conflict over thelogging of redwood trees in that
area in Humboldt County,california.
And I came of age during theconflict over the logging of
redwood trees in that area inHumboldt County, california.
And so a lot of my earlyexperiences with activism and
(02:34):
with trying to figure out how toraise my voice about something
I cared about was rooted intrying to prevent the trees from
being cut down, because therewas the logging industry, which
is really the economic backbone.
One of the economic backbonesof the area was aggressively
trying to cut a lot of the oldgrowth redwood trees.
And so I remember in highschool getting together with
(02:55):
friends and going and joiningprotests and showing up on
weekends at protests, and it wasreally formative in terms of me
thinking about the relationshipbetween environmental rights
and human rights and therelationship between individuals
and communities in a democraticsystem where we're supposed to
have the right to the freedom ofassembly and also the freedom
(03:16):
to speak for things that we careabout.
So I took that interest intrying to influence how the
world is like, not justaccepting that the way that I
found the world was the way thatthe in trying to influence how
the world is like, not justaccepting that the way that I
found the world was the way thatthe world had to be, and I took
that with me when I went off tocollege.
I did a lot of studying abroadand traveling abroad in my
(03:37):
younger years and became reallyinterested in Latin American
social movements and learnedSpanish.
And then went on and worked inradio journalism for a couple of
years after college and wasreally interested in
storytelling and how wecommunicate issues of social and
environmental concern to largeraudiences.
And then, from there, went anddid a master's in peace and
(03:59):
conflict studies.
That I did abroad in Argentinaand Australia and again just was
soaking in the exposure to thewider world.
Like I, came from a very rural,isolated area and was really
interested in what is going onin the larger community that
inhabits this planet.
And how do the things I careabout intersect with the kinds
of challenges that people arefacing in their lives?
(04:21):
And after my master's, whichwas really focused on practical
skills of how do we mediateconflict, how do we do
post-conflict reconstructionwork and transitional justice
work, I worked as a freelancejournalist for a year while I
was waiting to get into a PhDprogram and then did a PhD in
political science atNorthwestern University and
(04:42):
traveled a lot for several yearsdoing data collection in
relation to my dissertation workand eventually eventually
landed in Boston with myteaching job at Emerson, where I
went on to found the EmersonPrison Initiative.
So that was a very condensedlife story that I hope can give
a snapshot of how I ended updoing what I'm doing now.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It certainly does.
I mean talking about all of thedifferent educational
experiences you've had, whetherthat's in the US or abroad, like
you mentioned.
I'm really curious about howyour experiences abroad shaped
your perspective on all of theissues happening in America, but
also just the world at large,like how did those experiences
(05:24):
impact your viewpoints, yourperspectives on those topics?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think for me, when I grew up in my bubble of one
particular community, I thoughtthis is the way that the world
is, this is how the worldhandles conflict, this is how we
handle all the issuestransportation, food, education
(05:49):
and in my travels and my timeabroad both studying and
traveling and working I was ableto have exposure to so many
different ways to live, andthat's the mantra now that I
repeat with my own childrenthere are a lot of ways to live.
It's like become a family jokewhen we encounter something that
is unfamiliar like.
Well, there's a lot of ways tolive, that's how they do it in
(06:12):
their space or in theircommunity, and so I think for
each of the global exposureexperiences I was able to have,
it was a reminder of, hey,there's not one way to do this.
In my early career, I wrote aseries of articles looking at
conflict resolution in Cambodia,because I spent three months
working at a democracy promotingorganization based in Phnom
(06:33):
Penh, cambodia, during the timethat the Khmer Rouge tribunal
was getting underway to addressthe legacy of the Cambodian
genocide, and that was a momentwhere I really had to confront
my own Western, informedexpectations about what justice
looks like, about whatreconciliation looks like, about
what conflict resolution lookslike, and so that's just an
(06:55):
example that each time I stepout of my own bubble I'm looking
at how else can a communitysolve the problems that it faces
?
How else are people raisingtheir voices?
What is the cultural context inwhich those things are
happening?
And I think it's really easyfor people anywhere in the world
to lose sight of thatcomparative perspective, that
(07:17):
there are a lot of ways toaddress the things that shape
our everyday lives.
That shape our everyday lives,and my interest and what I now
try to convey as an educator isthat there is no one right
answer, there's no one rightsolution, and having that
context helps us inform and makebetter decisions about how we
problem solve in our owncommunities.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
One thing I really admire about Manisha is how she
creates classrooms that feelsafe for open discussion.
Even when the topics aredifficult, she encourages
students to question theirassumptions, especially those
shaped by a Western worldview,and to engage with complex,
sometimes uncomfortable,realities.
Let's hear how she fostersthese spaces, ensuring that
(08:00):
every student, no matter wherethey are, feels heard, respected
and empowered to learn.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I'm a big believer that our classrooms should be
spaces that are safe but thatcan also be uncomfortable.
So I think a lot of ourpersonal intellectual and
emotional growth can come fromsituations of discomfort, where
we are still safe enough to beopen to exploring where the
discomfort is coming from.
So within my classes that'swhat I try to foster spaces that
(08:32):
push people to challenge theirown perspectives, but not in a
threatening or shaming way, or aspace where someone might feel
overly vulnerable or be attackedor something I talk a lot about
.
We call each other in, we don'tcall out in the classroom.
So just a lot about.
We call each other in, we don'tcall out in the classroom.
So just a couple of weeks agobecause I'm teaching human
rights this semester and we didthe unit you might remember on
(08:54):
different kinds of circumcisionso in the class we talk about
male circumcision versus femalecircumcision and then have added
on to that looking at cosmeticsurgeries, predominantly in the
West, and so what language do weuse to talk about what is
sometimes labeled female genitalmutilation but could also be
called female circumcision inrelation to things like
(09:17):
vagioplasty or the many cosmeticsurgeries that some women elect
to have in Western context tochange the appearance of their
genitals.
How is that similar or differentthan the kind of female
circumcision rituals that arepredominantly practiced outside
of the West, in Africa andIndonesia, in the Middle East?
(09:38):
And what words do we use todescribe those experiences and
what judgments come based in thekind of language we use?
So I mean, as an educator, I'malways looking for examples that
require us to question thebubbles that we're in.
So many people take malecircumcision as a given because
it's widely practiced acrossmany cultures.
(10:00):
It's very common in the UnitedStates, much more so than in
Europe.
But I try to push students tosay, well, why is that the case
and how might that lookdifferent in a different
cultural context?
And I think it brings us tothat space of discomfort coupled
with curiosity and openness torethinking long-held assumptions
(10:22):
that do come from those bubblesthat we're in.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
After gaining insight into what fuels Manisha's
passion for justice, we shiftedto how she's putting those
beliefs into practice.
At the core of her work is theconviction that education should
be a right, not a privilege.
One of the most impactful waysshe's making that vision a
reality is through the EmersonPrison Initiative, a program
(10:49):
that offers incarceratedstudents in Massachusetts the
same education as those on anEmerson campus.
Up next, she shares how theprogram came to be, the
challenges of implementing theprogram and the real impact it's
making the challenges ofimplementing the program and the
real impact it's making.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So the Emerson Prison Initiative is housed at Emerson
College and it is adegree-granting program that
brings the opportunity to earn abachelor's degree in media,
literature and culture and aminor in economics to people who
are incarcerated in theMassachusetts state prison
system.
We are focused at MassachusettsCorrectional Institute at
Norfolk, MCI Norfolk, which is amen's medium security prison,
(11:35):
and we run admissions there.
It's a highly selective program.
We do try to mirror EmersonCollege's approach to everything
that we do in the prison.
So it's a highly selectiveadmissions process.
We admit 20 students, usuallyout of an applicant pool of
about 100 people when we runadmissions, which we do every
couple of years, and thosestudents then move as a cohort
(11:57):
through a degree-grantingprogram, working towards their
college degree.
That project, which follows anEmerson curriculum, is taught by
Emerson faculty in person atthe prison.
It is accredited through ouraccrediting body and really
meets the benchmarks of academicexcellence in so many ways as
we mirror our practices ofacademic excellence on the
(12:20):
Boston campus.
And it is a kind ofintervention because it's
bringing this elite collegeeducation to folks who are some
of the most marginalized peoplein our Massachusetts community
folks who are serving variouskinds of prison sentences, but
they are isolated from societyand have not had access to this
kind of college education in thepast, and for many folks it's a
(12:42):
continuation of educationaldisruption or educational trauma
, because many folks had reallydifficult K through 12
experiences for a variety ofreasons.
So for me it is a way to bringeducation, educational access,
to folks who are mostmarginalized in society.
They're not the only ones, butit is one concrete population
(13:04):
where we're able to extend thisaccess and do this kind of
intervention.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, thank you for sharing that and coming on the
podcast to talk about this.
I want to talk morespecifically about the access to
education for incarceratedfolks.
How have you had to approachthat, and are there any things
in your approach to teaching ormanaging the program that you've
kind of had to adapt?
(13:28):
I'm sure even the system putsbarriers in place.
I know when I was in your classyou talked about, you know,
having the access to a laptop,writing a paper, doing research.
You know where are your sourcescoming from, Can you access
them online or can you only usephysical books or studies?
So talk about those differencesbetween your typical college
(13:49):
experience at Emerson as astudent living on the dorms,
living on campus, versus beingan Emerson prison initiative
student.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, great question.
So prisons are not set up to becolleges.
So all of the components of acollege education that we're
asking to bring inside requirespecial permission, a lot of
paperwork, a lot of things.
So we recognize the labor thatour partners in both of those
fields have to engage in toallow us to function.
And yet, even as we try to makethem as similar as possible,
(14:18):
there still are a lot ofdifferences, as you mentioned.
So for the first many years ofthe program we officially
started in 2017 as a creditbearing program, and our first
cohort that graduated in 2022did their program entirely
without laptops.
So it was an entirely analogenvironment where students wrote
draft after draft by hand oftheir papers, and I know that
(14:41):
that was tough.
I mean, I think there is a reallearning experience in having
to engage with one's words theway that one does when you're
editing over and over on paper.
But in this day and age, whenwe were finally able to secure
permission to purchase laptopsfor our students, which we do
now have they're all offline, sothere's no internet permission,
(15:02):
but they're able to use theMicrosoft Office suite and use
Word and Excel to do theircoursework.
It is a significant impact forstudents to be able to learn how
to edit in that way.
When we think about folks thatare going to be leaving prison
and joining the workforce, theseare really fundamental skills
that people need to have to beable to survive, and we've seen
that with many of our alumni whohave come out and gotten jobs
(15:25):
with their Emerson degrees atsome of Boston area's important
nonprofits working in theviolence intervention field, for
example.
They have to know how to typein a Word document, how to edit
in that way.
The lack of internet remains asubstantial barrier for people
really developing informationalliteracy.
But that's not, you know,that's not something I'm trying
to change.
(15:46):
Instead, we've developedsystems to facilitate research
access given that limitation.
So our students on the Bostoncampus, when they don't know
something, they Google it.
Right, they go to the internetand they Google it.
And so for incarceratedstudents, before we had the
computers, we were entirelyreliant on research request
forms, which were these paperforms we developed that
(16:06):
facilitated communicationbetween the students and the
librarians on the Boston campus.
So faculty would be able tobring in the research request
form, students would completethem, we would bring those back
to the Boston librarians andthey would work with a team of
volunteers to fulfill thoseresearch requests.
Over the last year and a halfthe Emerson Prison Initiative
has been one of a handful ofprograms to be able to pilot
(16:28):
JSTOR access, and this is anoffline JSTOR database that has
tens of thousands of academicarticles.
Previously our students couldaccess only the abstracts of
those articles and then we stillhad to work with paper copies
of the full research articles.
Now, on the Department ofCorrection-issued tablets,
incarcerated college studentsare able to access the full
(16:50):
JSTOR database offline, and thathas made a huge difference in
their ability to just open upthat world of academic research.
So previously they might writea research paper that had five
or six citations because thosewere all the articles we could
manage to bring in for a givenpaper.
Now they're able to draw muchmore widely on the world of
literature that informs theirtopic, and so there are things
(17:13):
like that that they're still notidentical to what's happening
on the Boston campus, but we areproblem solving and we're
figuring out how to work withour various partners to make
real original research bepossible in a carceral
environment.
I think this semester for thefirst time, we have a journalism
professor teaching a classwhere students need to be
reading the news regularly, andso we were able to arrange for
(17:35):
physical copies of newspapers tobe delivered, so, since they're
not able to go online and getthe news that way, they are able
to get these regular deliveriesof newspapers.
And so there are inventionslike that, which, incidentally,
are still more similar to theway that people in a lot of
parts of the world do get theirnews reading the physical paper.
In Boston, we're so accustomedto everything being digital, but
(17:58):
these are important skills thatwill serve people in developing
the kinds of critical readingand critical communication
skills that represent the bestthat an Emerson College degree
has to offer, and it's excitingto be able to bring that to
incarcerated students throughEPI.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, I mean it's lovely to hear about the
evolution of the program from2017 to now, because last time
we spoke, I don't.
I mean it's lovely to hear thatwe can now have these students
get laptops, access to JSTOR.
I mean that's huge, like that'shuge, and so I want to commend
you for your work toward makingthat happen and all of the other
(18:35):
administrators in the programfor really making this happen,
because it's really important.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Well, and the other thing I just want to mention
that I am really proud of is wewere able to hire one of our
alumni on EPI's staff.
So Charles Rosario started withus in September of 24.
And having a former student nowon staff, he just brings so
many insights into how we canbest serve that student
(19:02):
population.
Because, having lived throughthe program, when we're trying
to decide, well, do we approachthis problem this way or this
other way, we can consult withhim and he's like, well, here's
how it might be received by thestudents or here are some of the
obstacles to that solutionyou're proposing.
So we really are trying to beled by folks who are most
affected by the work and I thinkhim joining our staff has been
(19:23):
important for that.
He's part of our EPI advisorycouncil, which is one of the
governance mechanisms that weuse to make decisions about the
program, and it feels reallyimpactful.
The other thing there was alittle part of your question I
didn't get to just anotherdifference.
I started doing a lot ofresearch and developing a
training for our faculty andteaching assistants for EPI on
(19:45):
trauma-informed education.
That actually has now informedwhat I'm doing on the Boston
campus as well.
So it's an area where Iactually learned in reverse,
instead of having all thelearning happening in Boston and
then bringing that expertise tothe prison.
Our incarcerated studentshelped me see not only is the
trauma-informed education, bothfor students and faculty,
critical in the prisonenvironment, it's actually
(20:06):
critical everywhere and we needto mainstream it.
And so I've been able to bringthat back to how I do some of my
teaching on the Boston campusand share that with colleagues,
and it's been a powerfulexperience of seeing.
You know, I am a student inthat space as well.
I'm still learning and evolvingas an educator and I'm really
grateful to the EPI students forhelping me grow in that way.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
As we were talking, I started to realize that the
students aren't the only oneslearning in this dynamic.
With each class, manisha isexposed to perspectives shaped
by experiences far differentfrom her own.
I wondered what has she takenaway from these conversations?
How has teaching inside aprison challenged her views or
(20:50):
even changed the way she seesherself?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I mean, I think one of the big reminders that
happens regularly for me fromstudents is just because they
are in prison does not mean theydo not have free will or agency
, nor are they willing to givethat up as a part of their
personal identity.
(21:13):
There was an example years agoI think it was during COVID, and
we were trying to decide as aprogram like how do we continue
to move students along theacademic pathway during COVID or
should we pause?
And I was like go, go, go.
Let's like keep people on trackto get to the finish line.
And we went in to meet with thestudents and was like here's
what we want to do with you.
(21:34):
We want to keep going andswitch to this kind of approach
so that we can still keepmeeting during COVID.
And one of the students raisedhis hand and was like you need
to ask us if we're willing to dothat first.
And it was a moment where mygoal of moving students toward
graduation really had clouded myvision.
(21:57):
I didn't stop to think, oh,these are folks with full agency
and full need to be consultedwith.
And I came back the next weekand apologized and said I'm so
sorry that I made thatassumption.
We're going to send out asurvey asking who wants to take
a pause and who wants to keepgoing.
(22:18):
Given the really hardcircumstances of teaching and
learning in COVID times and Imean I have moments like that
regularly where it just my ownassumptions have to be checked
over and over again as I ammanaging the program.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So where do you see it going in the future?
What are you looking forward toin having the program grow, or
things that you are looking toadd to enhance the program and
enhance this experience for thestudents?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah well, we've been going now for almost eight
years.
We're going to put on aconference this coming March.
That will be our secondconference, and we were just
saying, oh, our next conference,two years from now, will be
2027.
And that'll be our 10 yearanniversary.
So, even though we might stillbe a young program, I think
we've actually left the infantstage behind and we've moved
(23:09):
into the next phase.
And one of the indicators ofthat for me is that we're now
looked to support other programsthat are dealing with problems
or looking to troubleshootthings in their own development.
And so folks call us and say,hey, how did you navigate this
thing?
And we have years of experienceand relationship building and
(23:30):
system building insight that wecan share with them.
And so we were just awarded agrant from the Ascendia and
American Institute for Researchthat will allow us to develop
program implementation tools forother college and prison
programs.
And I think that comes asrecognition that we've now been
around for long enough and we'vedeveloped systematic pieces of
best practices for how to dothis work well that we can share
(23:53):
that back to others and helpgrow the field in a best
practices way, because there area lot of programs out there
trying to do this work, and itis really hard work, and so
being part of communities ofpractice and mutual support and
sharing information about how wedo what we do is one way that I
try to guide the field, notjust to do this work, but to do
(24:14):
this work well Some of mypersonal hopes.
I mean we're moving towardsevery other year admissions as a
regular thing, so just beingable to extend college access to
a larger number of students isimportant.
I've floated the idea of tryingto create a master's program.
I would love to see that happen,because once you have people
who have graduated college andprison that still are serving
(24:36):
long sentences, being able tocontinue on to additional
postgraduate work would bereally wonderful.
And we've also created a reentryprogram.
Epi's Reentry and CollegeOutside program, or EPI Recoup,
has been a significant componentof what we do, where we now
support, on a one-on-one casemanagement basis, our students
(24:56):
who have come out of prison andsupported them through their
reintegration processes,everything from connecting them
with partner organizations thatwork on housing and healthcare
and career placement, as well asholding regular wellness
workshops and communitygathering spaces to continue to
skillshare and support eachother as people are taking their
(25:18):
Emerson College degree throughEPI and applying that to some of
the leading organizationsworking on violence intervention
in the greater Boston area.
So that is really exciting andI look forward to seeing that
grow and continue and alsofiguring out how we can do a
better job spreading the wordabout the program to current
(25:38):
Emerson students and to otherstudents and faculty and
administrators at other collegesand universities who want to
channel some of their knowledge,resources and prestige into
these kinds of educationalaccess justice-informed
movements through college andprison programming.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Hearing Manisha speak about the evolution of the
Emerson Prison Initiative madeit clear that her work isn't
just about education.
It's about breaking barriersand creating a more equitable
world.
But I wanted to learn even more, so I asked her to answer a few
more questions.
It's time for the CareerCountdown, a segment here on
(26:22):
Hard to Hustle that offers usone last glimpse into our
guest's journey in a fresh,inspiring way.
Through five rapid-firequestions, minisha will share
the creative inspirations andpersonal moments that have
shaped her career path.
Let's dive in.
So for number five, if youcould invite five dream guest
(26:45):
speakers to your classes?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
who's the journalist with Democracy Now and I think
really represents the essence ofa free press and how
independent journalism can keeptruth happening in society.
Dolores Huerta, who is alongtime activist with the
United Farm Workers movement andhas been just a shining example
of the power of community-basedactivism for change Definitely
(27:13):
one of my heroes.
Bryan Stevenson, who wrote thebook Just Mercy and is the
founder of the Equal JusticeInitiative and has worked on
legal cases for folks on deathrow, predominantly in the South
Again, just a really inspiringperson.
And Ayanna Pressley locally Imean, we're here in Boston and
she represents democracy inaction, literally and
(27:36):
figuratively.
So I would love to bring herinto class, deb, as I think more
and more about trauma-informedeverything.
I think cultivating tools ofmeditation and
(27:57):
self-introspection are really animportant component of that,
and her writings have beeninfluential to me in that way.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Lovely, all right For number four.
What are four social movementsthese could be past or present
that have inspired your activism.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, I think past.
I mentioned Dolores Huertabefore, and so the United Farm
Workers movement is one of thosemovements that I learned about
as a young person that reallyshaped my early activism and my
understanding of what collectiveaction can look like.
So definitely that one.
And then, similarly, earthFirst and other organizations
that were doing grassrootsenvironmental activism in the
(28:34):
Pacific Northwest in the 90s.
I mean, they they showed onemodel and it's not the only
model, but it was one model ofhow to how to speak out urgently
.
The Zapatista Movement forNational Liberation, or the EZLN
as it's known with a Spanishacronym, is based in Mexico.
It's an indigenous autonomymovement in Mexico and, again,
(28:55):
some of my early activismexposure was to that movement,
and it's something I teach aboutin my classes and just really
admire the courage that folkshave in difficult circumstances
and with few resources to speakout.
And then so much of the workthat I've done since 2016 has
been with the Yurok tribe ofNorthern California and
specifically with the Yuroklanguage program there.
(29:17):
So it's not a social movementper se, but I think that the
Yurok language rights movementand indigenous language rights
movements around the worldcontinue to be a deep source of
inspiration for me when I thinkabout people in really
challenging circumstancesasserting the right to cultural
sovereignty.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So number three what are three books or pieces of
writing that have shaped yourcareer and perspective?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Okay, well, the first one's a little embarrassing, to
admit, but I got to be realabout it.
So Lonely Planet Travel Guideshave been a source of reading
for me for years, because when Ididn't know how to get around
or engage or figure out thetravel logistics of moving
around the globe, I turned tothose books.
And now I read them forpleasure.
I read, you know, I'll read thehistory section.
(30:04):
So I'm like, oh, I want the, Iwant the super quick cliff notes
on this particular place beforeI go there for a conference or
something.
So I love, I love those books.
It's a little littleembarrassing, but I'm I'm happy
to say I have a bookshelf fullof those travel guides.
Um, another book that has beenformative is Michelle
Alexander's the New Jim CrowMass Incarceration in the Age of
(30:25):
Colorblindness.
I know that it's been critiquedin a number of ways.
Yeah, and it also sayssomething really important.
So I just appreciate herputting it out there and saying
what needs to be said and Ithink people should read it.
And then Robin Wall, kimmerer'sBraiding Sweetgrass book.
The subtitle is IndigenousWisdom, scientific Knowledge and
(30:45):
the Teaching of Plants.
When people ask me like, oh,what's a book that you recommend
, that's the book I recommendthe most.
It is beautifully written, itis absolutely political, but
it's also requiring a holisticapproach to decolonization that
I think is rare in a lot ofother writings.
So those are my three, three ofmy faves.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
So for number two, if you could have two major policy
changes implemented today toimprove education equity, what
would they?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
be.
Education everywhere should befree for everyone, fully free at
every level K throughpostgraduate education.
We have the money in the world.
People should not be held backfrom education due to cost
barriers, and that includes insituations in many places.
(31:34):
I've worked in the global Southwhere, theoretically, education
is free, but then you have theuniform that has to be purchased
, you have the books that haveto be purchased.
Figuring out how to actuallyinvest in universal, free
education would betransformational for everyone on
earth.
The second thing is to havetraining for educators that is
(31:56):
rooted in philosophies ofjustice.
So the way that people teachand also the substance of what
is taught is tremendouslyinformative for how students are
formed, and just last year Ipublished a book called
Misrepresentation and Silence inUnited States History Textbooks
the Politics of HistoricalOblivion and it looks at the way
(32:19):
that curricula in high schoollevel US history textbooks
distorts what people learn.
So I think having educators betrained in a whole range of
inclusive and trauma-informedpractices, coupled with
curricular reform that is rootedin the truth, in facts, rather
than in white supremacistinformed curricula, would be,
(32:43):
again, transformational for manysocieties.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So for our final question, number one what is the
one thing you always hope yourstudents, whether inside or
outside of prison, take awayfrom your teaching?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Oh, it's so hard because I want them to take away
so many things from my teaching, so choosing just one is really
tough.
One of the things that I repeatto students semester after
semester is people make policyand we are people, so we can be
part of making policy.
I want students to seethemselves as agents, as being
(33:19):
capable of creating andinforming the systems that run
the world, rather than beingpassive recipients of those
systems.
So people make policy and weare people.
That's something I find myselfrepeating time and time again in
the classroom.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Catching up with Manisha Gelman, the educator
behind the wall, was bothenlightening and inspiring.
As I reflect on ourconversation, I can't help but
think about the opportunitiesmany of us take for granted.
This episode has prompted me tothink more deeply about how we
can use our voices and resourcesto help open doors for others.
(34:05):
As Manisha wisely stated,people make policy and we all
have the power to create change,shape systems and fight for
equal access to opportunitiesworldwide.
Well, thanks for listening toHard to Hustle.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand that it left you reflecting
on the power of knowledge andthe role we all can play in
(34:27):
building a better world for all.
Tune in next week for anotherinspiring journey of passion and
purpose.
Until then, thank you forlistening.
Have you ever had a side hustle, a side gig you
picked up for fun or maybe toearn a little extra cash?
Maybe you had a lemonade standas a kid or, like me, were fully
immersed in the world oftheater and dance, where each
experience ignited my passionfor the spotlight.
As we transition from thoseearly experiences into the
(00:24):
professional world, some sidegigs evolve into real passions
and sometimes even lastingcareers.
I've always been so curiousabout these stories, especially
the less conventional journeysthat redefine what a career can
look like.
They remind us that successisn't always a straight path and
that the heart behind ourhustle can lead us to unexpected
(00:46):
and fulfilling destinations.
I genuinely love exploring howother people's passions have
shaped their careers.
If you're into that too, joinme, layla Palmer, as I chat with
a captivating lineup of guestsfrom various industries to
uncover how they went from heartto hustle.
Imagine being in a classroomwhere education is more than
(01:09):
just a degree.
It's a second chance, a toolfor empowerment and sometimes
the first real opportunity to beheard.
That's the kind of impacttoday's guest, minnie Shigelman,
is making.
She was my professor for humanrights, a class that explored
the fight for justice, dignityand equality.
(01:30):
But Manisha doesn't just studythese issues, she acts on them.
She's bringing the classroomitself into prisons, ensuring
that higher education isn't justfor the privileged few but for
those who have been shut out bycircumstance, by systemic
barriers, by a society that toooften denies second chances.
(01:51):
Through the Emerson PrisonInitiative, she's proving that
education is a fundamental right, pushing forward with the
belief that knowledge is one ofthe most powerful tools for
transformation.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's really also such apleasure to reconnect with
former students and see theamazing creative things that
people are doing with theirskills, so it's wonderful to be
here with you.
I grew up in rural far NorthernCalifornia and I came of age
during the conflict over thelogging of redwood trees in that
area in Humboldt County,california.
And I came of age during theconflict over the logging of
redwood trees in that area inHumboldt County, california.
And so a lot of my earlyexperiences with activism and
(02:34):
with trying to figure out how toraise my voice about something
I cared about was rooted intrying to prevent the trees from
being cut down, because therewas the logging industry, which
is really the economic backbone.
One of the economic backbonesof the area was aggressively
trying to cut a lot of the oldgrowth redwood trees.
And so I remember in highschool getting together with
(02:55):
friends and going and joiningprotests and showing up on
weekends at protests, and it wasreally formative in terms of me
thinking about the relationshipbetween environmental rights
and human rights and therelationship between individuals
and communities in a democraticsystem where we're supposed to
have the right to the freedom ofassembly and also the freedom
(03:16):
to speak for things that we careabout.
So I took that interest intrying to influence how the
world is like, not justaccepting that the way that I
found the world was the way thatthe in trying to influence how
the world is like, not justaccepting that the way that I
found the world was the way thatthe world had to be, and I took
that with me when I went off tocollege.
I did a lot of studying abroadand traveling abroad in my
(03:37):
younger years and became reallyinterested in Latin American
social movements and learnedSpanish.
And then went on and worked inradio journalism for a couple of
years after college and wasreally interested in
storytelling and how wecommunicate issues of social and
environmental concern to largeraudiences.
And then, from there, went anddid a master's in peace and
(03:59):
conflict studies.
That I did abroad in Argentinaand Australia and again just was
soaking in the exposure to thewider world.
Like I, came from a very rural,isolated area and was really
interested in what is going onin the larger community that
inhabits this planet.
And how do the things I careabout intersect with the kinds
of challenges that people arefacing in their lives?
(04:21):
And after my master's, whichwas really focused on practical
skills of how do we mediateconflict, how do we do
post-conflict reconstructionwork and transitional justice
work, I worked as a freelancejournalist for a year while I
was waiting to get into a PhDprogram and then did a PhD in
political science atNorthwestern University and
(04:42):
traveled a lot for several yearsdoing data collection in
relation to my dissertation workand eventually eventually
landed in Boston with myteaching job at Emerson, where I
went on to found the EmersonPrison Initiative.
So that was a very condensedlife story that I hope can give
a snapshot of how I ended updoing what I'm doing now.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It certainly does.
I mean talking about all of thedifferent educational
experiences you've had, whetherthat's in the US or abroad, like
you mentioned.
I'm really curious about howyour experiences abroad shaped
your perspective on all of theissues happening in America, but
also just the world at large,like how did those experiences
(05:24):
impact your viewpoints, yourperspectives on those topics?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I think for me, when I grew up in my bubble of one
particular community, I thoughtthis is the way that the world
is, this is how the worldhandles conflict, this is how we
handle all the issuestransportation, food, education
(05:49):
and in my travels and my timeabroad both studying and
traveling and working I was ableto have exposure to so many
different ways to live, andthat's the mantra now that I
repeat with my own childrenthere are a lot of ways to live.
It's like become a family jokewhen we encounter something that
is unfamiliar like.
Well, there's a lot of ways tolive, that's how they do it in
(06:12):
their space or in theircommunity, and so I think for
each of the global exposureexperiences I was able to have,
it was a reminder of, hey,there's not one way to do this.
In my early career, I wrote aseries of articles looking at
conflict resolution in Cambodia,because I spent three months
working at a democracy promotingorganization based in Phnom
(06:33):
Penh, cambodia, during the timethat the Khmer Rouge tribunal
was getting underway to addressthe legacy of the Cambodian
genocide, and that was a momentwhere I really had to confront
my own Western, informedexpectations about what justice
looks like, about whatreconciliation looks like, about
what conflict resolution lookslike, and so that's just an
(06:55):
example that each time I stepout of my own bubble I'm looking
at how else can a communitysolve the problems that it faces
?
How else are people raisingtheir voices?
What is the cultural context inwhich those things are
happening?
And I think it's really easyfor people anywhere in the world
to lose sight of thatcomparative perspective, that
(07:17):
there are a lot of ways toaddress the things that shape
our everyday lives.
That shape our everyday lives,and my interest and what I now
try to convey as an educator isthat there is no one right
answer, there's no one rightsolution, and having that
context helps us inform and makebetter decisions about how we
problem solve in our owncommunities.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
One thing I really admire about Manisha is how she
creates classrooms that feelsafe for open discussion.
Even when the topics aredifficult, she encourages
students to question theirassumptions, especially those
shaped by a Western worldview,and to engage with complex,
sometimes uncomfortable,realities.
Let's hear how she fostersthese spaces, ensuring that
(08:00):
every student, no matter wherethey are, feels heard, respected
and empowered to learn.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
I'm a big believer that our classrooms should be
spaces that are safe but thatcan also be uncomfortable.
So I think a lot of ourpersonal intellectual and
emotional growth can come fromsituations of discomfort, where
we are still safe enough to beopen to exploring where the
discomfort is coming from.
So within my classes that'swhat I try to foster spaces that
(08:32):
push people to challenge theirown perspectives, but not in a
threatening or shaming way, or aspace where someone might feel
overly vulnerable or be attackedor something I talk a lot about
.
We call each other in, we don'tcall out in the classroom.
So just a lot about.
We call each other in, we don'tcall out in the classroom.
So just a couple of weeks agobecause I'm teaching human
rights this semester and we didthe unit you might remember on
(08:54):
different kinds of circumcisionso in the class we talk about
male circumcision versus femalecircumcision and then have added
on to that looking at cosmeticsurgeries, predominantly in the
West, and so what language do weuse to talk about what is
sometimes labeled female genitalmutilation but could also be
called female circumcision inrelation to things like
(09:17):
vagioplasty or the many cosmeticsurgeries that some women elect
to have in Western context tochange the appearance of their
genitals.
How is that similar or differentthan the kind of female
circumcision rituals that arepredominantly practiced outside
of the West, in Africa andIndonesia, in the Middle East?
(09:38):
And what words do we use todescribe those experiences and
what judgments come based in thekind of language we use?
So I mean, as an educator, I'malways looking for examples that
require us to question thebubbles that we're in.
So many people take malecircumcision as a given because
it's widely practiced acrossmany cultures.
(10:00):
It's very common in the UnitedStates, much more so than in
Europe.
But I try to push students tosay, well, why is that the case
and how might that lookdifferent in a different
cultural context?
And I think it brings us tothat space of discomfort coupled
with curiosity and openness torethinking long-held assumptions
(10:22):
that do come from those bubblesthat we're in.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
After gaining insight into what fuels Manisha's
passion for justice, we shiftedto how she's putting those
beliefs into practice.
At the core of her work is theconviction that education should
be a right, not a privilege.
One of the most impactful waysshe's making that vision a
reality is through the EmersonPrison Initiative, a program
(10:49):
that offers incarceratedstudents in Massachusetts the
same education as those on anEmerson campus.
Up next, she shares how theprogram came to be, the
challenges of implementing theprogram and the real impact it's
making the challenges ofimplementing the program and the
real impact it's making.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
So the Emerson Prison Initiative is housed at Emerson
College and it is adegree-granting program that
brings the opportunity to earn abachelor's degree in media,
literature and culture and aminor in economics to people who
are incarcerated in theMassachusetts state prison
system.
We are focused at MassachusettsCorrectional Institute at
Norfolk, MCI Norfolk, which is amen's medium security prison,
(11:35):
and we run admissions there.
It's a highly selective program.
We do try to mirror EmersonCollege's approach to everything
that we do in the prison.
So it's a highly selectiveadmissions process.
We admit 20 students, usuallyout of an applicant pool of
about 100 people when we runadmissions, which we do every
couple of years, and thosestudents then move as a cohort
(11:57):
through a degree-grantingprogram, working towards their
college degree.
That project, which follows anEmerson curriculum, is taught by
Emerson faculty in person atthe prison.
It is accredited through ouraccrediting body and really
meets the benchmarks of academicexcellence in so many ways as
we mirror our practices ofacademic excellence on the
(12:20):
Boston campus.
And it is a kind ofintervention because it's
bringing this elite collegeeducation to folks who are some
of the most marginalized peoplein our Massachusetts community
folks who are serving variouskinds of prison sentences, but
they are isolated from societyand have not had access to this
kind of college education in thepast, and for many folks it's a
(12:42):
continuation of educationaldisruption or educational trauma
, because many folks had reallydifficult K through 12
experiences for a variety ofreasons.
So for me it is a way to bringeducation, educational access,
to folks who are mostmarginalized in society.
They're not the only ones, butit is one concrete population
(13:04):
where we're able to extend thisaccess and do this kind of
intervention.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, thank you for sharing that and coming on the
podcast to talk about this.
I want to talk morespecifically about the access to
education for incarceratedfolks.
How have you had to approachthat, and are there any things
in your approach to teaching ormanaging the program that you've
kind of had to adapt?
(13:28):
I'm sure even the system putsbarriers in place.
I know when I was in your classyou talked about, you know,
having the access to a laptop,writing a paper, doing research.
You know where are your sourcescoming from, Can you access
them online or can you only usephysical books or studies?
So talk about those differencesbetween your typical college
(13:49):
experience at Emerson as astudent living on the dorms,
living on campus, versus beingan Emerson prison initiative
student.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah, great question.
So prisons are not set up to becolleges.
So all of the components of acollege education that we're
asking to bring inside requirespecial permission, a lot of
paperwork, a lot of things.
So we recognize the labor thatour partners in both of those
fields have to engage in toallow us to function.
And yet, even as we try to makethem as similar as possible,
(14:18):
there still are a lot ofdifferences, as you mentioned.
So for the first many years ofthe program we officially
started in 2017 as a creditbearing program, and our first
cohort that graduated in 2022did their program entirely
without laptops.
So it was an entirely analogenvironment where students wrote
draft after draft by hand oftheir papers, and I know that
(14:41):
that was tough.
I mean, I think there is a reallearning experience in having
to engage with one's words theway that one does when you're
editing over and over on paper.
But in this day and age, whenwe were finally able to secure
permission to purchase laptopsfor our students, which we do
now have they're all offline, sothere's no internet permission,
(15:02):
but they're able to use theMicrosoft Office suite and use
Word and Excel to do theircoursework.
It is a significant impact forstudents to be able to learn how
to edit in that way.
When we think about folks thatare going to be leaving prison
and joining the workforce, theseare really fundamental skills
that people need to have to beable to survive, and we've seen
that with many of our alumni whohave come out and gotten jobs
(15:25):
with their Emerson degrees atsome of Boston area's important
nonprofits working in theviolence intervention field, for
example.
They have to know how to typein a Word document, how to edit
in that way.
The lack of internet remains asubstantial barrier for people
really developing informationalliteracy.
But that's not, you know,that's not something I'm trying
to change.
(15:46):
Instead, we've developedsystems to facilitate research
access given that limitation.
So our students on the Bostoncampus, when they don't know
something, they Google it.
Right, they go to the internetand they Google it.
And so for incarceratedstudents, before we had the
computers, we were entirelyreliant on research request
forms, which were these paperforms we developed that
(16:06):
facilitated communicationbetween the students and the
librarians on the Boston campus.
So faculty would be able tobring in the research request
form, students would completethem, we would bring those back
to the Boston librarians andthey would work with a team of
volunteers to fulfill thoseresearch requests.
Over the last year and a halfthe Emerson Prison Initiative
has been one of a handful ofprograms to be able to pilot
(16:28):
JSTOR access, and this is anoffline JSTOR database that has
tens of thousands of academicarticles.
Previously our students couldaccess only the abstracts of
those articles and then we stillhad to work with paper copies
of the full research articles.
Now, on the Department ofCorrection-issued tablets,
incarcerated college studentsare able to access the full
(16:50):
JSTOR database offline, and thathas made a huge difference in
their ability to just open upthat world of academic research.
So previously they might writea research paper that had five
or six citations because thosewere all the articles we could
manage to bring in for a givenpaper.
Now they're able to draw muchmore widely on the world of
literature that informs theirtopic, and so there are things
(17:13):
like that that they're still notidentical to what's happening
on the Boston campus, but we areproblem solving and we're
figuring out how to work withour various partners to make
real original research bepossible in a carceral
environment.
I think this semester for thefirst time, we have a journalism
professor teaching a classwhere students need to be
reading the news regularly, andso we were able to arrange for
(17:35):
physical copies of newspapers tobe delivered, so, since they're
not able to go online and getthe news that way, they are able
to get these regular deliveriesof newspapers.
And so there are inventionslike that, which, incidentally,
are still more similar to theway that people in a lot of
parts of the world do get theirnews reading the physical paper.
In Boston, we're so accustomedto everything being digital, but
(17:58):
these are important skills thatwill serve people in developing
the kinds of critical readingand critical communication
skills that represent the bestthat an Emerson College degree
has to offer, and it's excitingto be able to bring that to
incarcerated students throughEPI.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, I mean it's lovely to hear about the
evolution of the program from2017 to now, because last time
we spoke, I don't.
I mean it's lovely to hear thatwe can now have these students
get laptops, access to JSTOR.
I mean that's huge, like that'shuge, and so I want to commend
you for your work toward makingthat happen and all of the other
(18:35):
administrators in the programfor really making this happen,
because it's really important.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Well, and the other thing I just want to mention
that I am really proud of is wewere able to hire one of our
alumni on EPI's staff.
So Charles Rosario started withus in September of 24.
And having a former student nowon staff, he just brings so
many insights into how we canbest serve that student
(19:02):
population.
Because, having lived throughthe program, when we're trying
to decide, well, do we approachthis problem this way or this
other way, we can consult withhim and he's like, well, here's
how it might be received by thestudents or here are some of the
obstacles to that solutionyou're proposing.
So we really are trying to beled by folks who are most
affected by the work and I thinkhim joining our staff has been
(19:23):
important for that.
He's part of our EPI advisorycouncil, which is one of the
governance mechanisms that weuse to make decisions about the
program, and it feels reallyimpactful.
The other thing there was alittle part of your question I
didn't get to just anotherdifference.
I started doing a lot ofresearch and developing a
training for our faculty andteaching assistants for EPI on
(19:45):
trauma-informed education.
That actually has now informedwhat I'm doing on the Boston
campus as well.
So it's an area where Iactually learned in reverse,
instead of having all thelearning happening in Boston and
then bringing that expertise tothe prison.
Our incarcerated studentshelped me see not only is the
trauma-informed education, bothfor students and faculty,
critical in the prisonenvironment, it's actually
(20:06):
critical everywhere and we needto mainstream it.
And so I've been able to bringthat back to how I do some of my
teaching on the Boston campusand share that with colleagues,
and it's been a powerfulexperience of seeing.
You know, I am a student inthat space as well.
I'm still learning and evolvingas an educator and I'm really
grateful to the EPI students forhelping me grow in that way.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
As we were talking, I started to realize that the
students aren't the only oneslearning in this dynamic.
With each class, manisha isexposed to perspectives shaped
by experiences far differentfrom her own.
I wondered what has she takenaway from these conversations?
How has teaching inside aprison challenged her views or
(20:50):
even changed the way she seesherself?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I mean, I think one of the big reminders that
happens regularly for me fromstudents is just because they
are in prison does not mean theydo not have free will or agency
, nor are they willing to givethat up as a part of their
personal identity.
(21:13):
There was an example years agoI think it was during COVID, and
we were trying to decide as aprogram like how do we continue
to move students along theacademic pathway during COVID or
should we pause?
And I was like go, go, go.
Let's like keep people on trackto get to the finish line.
And we went in to meet with thestudents and was like here's
what we want to do with you.
(21:34):
We want to keep going andswitch to this kind of approach
so that we can still keepmeeting during COVID.
And one of the students raisedhis hand and was like you need
to ask us if we're willing to dothat first.
And it was a moment where mygoal of moving students toward
graduation really had clouded myvision.
(21:57):
I didn't stop to think, oh,these are folks with full agency
and full need to be consultedwith.
And I came back the next weekand apologized and said I'm so
sorry that I made thatassumption.
We're going to send out asurvey asking who wants to take
a pause and who wants to keepgoing.
(22:18):
Given the really hardcircumstances of teaching and
learning in COVID times and Imean I have moments like that
regularly where it just my ownassumptions have to be checked
over and over again as I ammanaging the program.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So where do you see it going in the future?
What are you looking forward toin having the program grow, or
things that you are looking toadd to enhance the program and
enhance this experience for thestudents?
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah well, we've been going now for almost eight
years.
We're going to put on aconference this coming March.
That will be our secondconference, and we were just
saying, oh, our next conference,two years from now, will be
2027.
And that'll be our 10 yearanniversary.
So, even though we might stillbe a young program, I think
we've actually left the infantstage behind and we've moved
(23:09):
into the next phase.
And one of the indicators ofthat for me is that we're now
looked to support other programsthat are dealing with problems
or looking to troubleshootthings in their own development.
And so folks call us and say,hey, how did you navigate this
thing?
And we have years of experienceand relationship building and
(23:30):
system building insight that wecan share with them.
And so we were just awarded agrant from the Ascendia and
American Institute for Researchthat will allow us to develop
program implementation tools forother college and prison
programs.
And I think that comes asrecognition that we've now been
around for long enough and we'vedeveloped systematic pieces of
best practices for how to dothis work well that we can share
(23:53):
that back to others and helpgrow the field in a best
practices way, because there area lot of programs out there
trying to do this work, and itis really hard work, and so
being part of communities ofpractice and mutual support and
sharing information about how wedo what we do is one way that I
try to guide the field, notjust to do this work, but to do
(24:14):
this work well Some of mypersonal hopes.
I mean we're moving towardsevery other year admissions as a
regular thing, so just beingable to extend college access to
a larger number of students isimportant.
I've floated the idea of tryingto create a master's program.
I would love to see that happen,because once you have people
who have graduated college andprison that still are serving
(24:36):
long sentences, being able tocontinue on to additional
postgraduate work would bereally wonderful.
And we've also created a reentryprogram.
Epi's Reentry and CollegeOutside program, or EPI Recoup,
has been a significant componentof what we do, where we now
support, on a one-on-one casemanagement basis, our students
(24:56):
who have come out of prison andsupported them through their
reintegration processes,everything from connecting them
with partner organizations thatwork on housing and healthcare
and career placement, as well asholding regular wellness
workshops and communitygathering spaces to continue to
skillshare and support eachother as people are taking their
(25:18):
Emerson College degree throughEPI and applying that to some of
the leading organizationsworking on violence intervention
in the greater Boston area.
So that is really exciting andI look forward to seeing that
grow and continue and alsofiguring out how we can do a
better job spreading the wordabout the program to current
(25:38):
Emerson students and to otherstudents and faculty and
administrators at other collegesand universities who want to
channel some of their knowledge,resources and prestige into
these kinds of educationalaccess justice-informed
movements through college andprison programming.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Hearing Manisha speak about the evolution of the
Emerson Prison Initiative madeit clear that her work isn't
just about education.
It's about breaking barriersand creating a more equitable
world.
But I wanted to learn even more, so I asked her to answer a few
more questions.
It's time for the CareerCountdown, a segment here on
(26:22):
Hard to Hustle that offers usone last glimpse into our
guest's journey in a fresh,inspiring way.
Through five rapid-firequestions, minisha will share
the creative inspirations andpersonal moments that have
shaped her career path.
Let's dive in.
So for number five, if youcould invite five dream guest
(26:45):
speakers to your classes?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
who's the journalist with Democracy Now and I think
really represents the essence ofa free press and how
independent journalism can keeptruth happening in society.
Dolores Huerta, who is alongtime activist with the
United Farm Workers movement andhas been just a shining example
of the power of community-basedactivism for change Definitely
(27:13):
one of my heroes.
Bryan Stevenson, who wrote thebook Just Mercy and is the
founder of the Equal JusticeInitiative and has worked on
legal cases for folks on deathrow, predominantly in the South
Again, just a really inspiringperson.
And Ayanna Pressley locally Imean, we're here in Boston and
she represents democracy inaction, literally and
(27:36):
figuratively.
So I would love to bring herinto class, deb, as I think more
and more about trauma-informedeverything.
I think cultivating tools ofmeditation and
(27:57):
self-introspection are really animportant component of that,
and her writings have beeninfluential to me in that way.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Lovely, all right For number four.
What are four social movementsthese could be past or present
that have inspired your activism.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, I think past.
I mentioned Dolores Huertabefore, and so the United Farm
Workers movement is one of thosemovements that I learned about
as a young person that reallyshaped my early activism and my
understanding of what collectiveaction can look like.
So definitely that one.
And then, similarly, earthFirst and other organizations
that were doing grassrootsenvironmental activism in the
(28:34):
Pacific Northwest in the 90s.
I mean, they they showed onemodel and it's not the only
model, but it was one model ofhow to how to speak out urgently
.
The Zapatista Movement forNational Liberation, or the EZLN
as it's known with a Spanishacronym, is based in Mexico.
It's an indigenous autonomymovement in Mexico and, again,
(28:55):
some of my early activismexposure was to that movement,
and it's something I teach aboutin my classes and just really
admire the courage that folkshave in difficult circumstances
and with few resources to speakout.
And then so much of the workthat I've done since 2016 has
been with the Yurok tribe ofNorthern California and
specifically with the Yuroklanguage program there.
(29:17):
So it's not a social movementper se, but I think that the
Yurok language rights movementand indigenous language rights
movements around the worldcontinue to be a deep source of
inspiration for me when I thinkabout people in really
challenging circumstancesasserting the right to cultural
sovereignty.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
So number three what are three books or pieces of
writing that have shaped yourcareer and perspective?
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Okay, well, the first one's a little embarrassing, to
admit, but I got to be realabout it.
So Lonely Planet Travel Guideshave been a source of reading
for me for years, because when Ididn't know how to get around
or engage or figure out thetravel logistics of moving
around the globe, I turned tothose books.
And now I read them forpleasure.
I read, you know, I'll read thehistory section.
(30:04):
So I'm like, oh, I want the, Iwant the super quick cliff notes
on this particular place beforeI go there for a conference or
something.
So I love, I love those books.
It's a little littleembarrassing, but I'm I'm happy
to say I have a bookshelf fullof those travel guides.
Um, another book that has beenformative is Michelle
Alexander's the New Jim CrowMass Incarceration in the Age of
(30:25):
Colorblindness.
I know that it's been critiquedin a number of ways.
Yeah, and it also sayssomething really important.
So I just appreciate herputting it out there and saying
what needs to be said and Ithink people should read it.
And then Robin Wall, kimmerer'sBraiding Sweetgrass book.
The subtitle is IndigenousWisdom, scientific Knowledge and
(30:45):
the Teaching of Plants.
When people ask me like, oh,what's a book that you recommend
, that's the book I recommendthe most.
It is beautifully written, itis absolutely political, but
it's also requiring a holisticapproach to decolonization that
I think is rare in a lot ofother writings.
So those are my three, three ofmy faves.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
So for number two, if you could have two major policy
changes implemented today toimprove education equity, what
would they?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
be.
Education everywhere should befree for everyone, fully free at
every level K throughpostgraduate education.
We have the money in the world.
People should not be held backfrom education due to cost
barriers, and that includes insituations in many places.
(31:34):
I've worked in the global Southwhere, theoretically, education
is free, but then you have theuniform that has to be purchased
, you have the books that haveto be purchased.
Figuring out how to actuallyinvest in universal, free
education would betransformational for everyone on
earth.
The second thing is to havetraining for educators that is
(31:56):
rooted in philosophies ofjustice.
So the way that people teachand also the substance of what
is taught is tremendouslyinformative for how students are
formed, and just last year Ipublished a book called
Misrepresentation and Silence inUnited States History Textbooks
the Politics of HistoricalOblivion and it looks at the way
(32:19):
that curricula in high schoollevel US history textbooks
distorts what people learn.
So I think having educators betrained in a whole range of
inclusive and trauma-informedpractices, coupled with
curricular reform that is rootedin the truth, in facts, rather
than in white supremacistinformed curricula, would be,
(32:43):
again, transformational for manysocieties.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So for our final question, number one what is the
one thing you always hope yourstudents, whether inside or
outside of prison, take awayfrom your teaching?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Oh, it's so hard because I want them to take away
so many things from my teaching, so choosing just one is really
tough.
One of the things that I repeatto students semester after
semester is people make policyand we are people, so we can be
part of making policy.
I want students to seethemselves as agents, as being
(33:19):
capable of creating andinforming the systems that run
the world, rather than beingpassive recipients of those
systems.
So people make policy and weare people.
That's something I find myselfrepeating time and time again in
the classroom.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Catching up with Manisha Gelman, the educator
behind the wall, was bothenlightening and inspiring.
As I reflect on ourconversation, I can't help but
think about the opportunitiesmany of us take for granted.
This episode has prompted me tothink more deeply about how we
can use our voices and resourcesto help open doors for others.
(34:05):
As Manisha wisely stated,people make policy and we all
have the power to create change,shape systems and fight for
equal access to opportunitiesworldwide.
Well, thanks for listening toHard to Hustle.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand that it left you reflecting
on the power of knowledge andthe role we all can play in
(34:27):
building a better world for all.
Tune in next week for anotherinspiring journey of passion and
purpose.
Until then, thank you forlistening.
Host
Layla Palmer
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