February 18, 2025 • 34 mins
For nearly 20 years, Pierre Hurel’s improvisation workshop at the Boston Conservatory at Berklee has been a cornerstone for musicians looking to expand their artistry. As the workshop approaches its 20th anniversary, Pierre reflects on his journey from performing on stages with is trio to shaping the next generation of musicians. In this episode, he shares how his early experiences in jazz led him to a career in both performance and education, the evolution of his teaching philosophy, and what makes his workshop a unique space for artistic growth. From navigating the unpredictability of the arts to inspiring students to take creative risks, Pierre offers insight into a life dedicated to music, mentorship, and the pursuit of expression.
About Pierre Hurel: Born in Paris, pianist and composer Pierre Hurel was first discovered by Paris Jazz Conservatory’s founder and director Charles Henry. At age 20, as he was about to reluctantly start a career in business, Hurel decided to change course and enrolled at the School of Modern Music in Paris. Six months later, he came to Boston for a summer session at the Berklee College of Music and has remained here ever since. Hurel has been featured numerous times on New England Cable News and his music has been played on WGBH, WERS, WBUR, WMBR, Paris Jazz, Europe 1 and France inter, among others. He has recorded eight albums. Hurel is a regular at the Regattabar in Cambridge, and has appeared at numerous Jazz festivals including the Nice and Toulon Jazz Festivals in France, and Jazz clubs including the Duc des Lombards in Paris, the Knickerbocker in New York and locally at Sculler’s and Ryles Jazz clubs, among others.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Layla Palmer (00:02):
Have you ever had a side hustle, a side gig you
picked up for fun or maybe toearn a little extra cash?
Maybe you had a lemonade standas a kid or, like me, were fully
immersed in the world oftheater and dance, where each
experience ignited my passionfor the spotlight.
As we transition from thoseearly experiences into the
(00:24):
professional world, some sidegigs evolve into real passions
and sometimes even lastingcareers.
I've always been so curiousabout these stories, especially
the less conventional journeysthat redefine what a career can
look like.
They remind us that successisn't always a straight path and
that the heart behind ourhustle can lead us to unexpected
(00:46):
and fulfilling destinations.
I genuinely love exploring howother people's passions have
shaped their careers.
If you're into that too, joinme, layla Palmer, as I chat with
a captivating lineup of guestsfrom various industries to
uncover how they went from heartto hustle.
(01:14):
Salut Bienvenue.
Cette semaine, nous allonsentendre mon prof, pierre
Harrell, qui va nous parler desa vie de musicien de jazz.
Whoa, sorry, I don't know whatgot into me.
Let's start this again.
Hi, welcome back.
This week we're hearing fromPierre Harrell, a jazz musician,
(01:35):
music improvisation instructorand my French professor.
If you couldn't tell, pierre isa Paris native, originally from
the 7th arrondissement.
He came to Boston years ago asa student, drawn to the
captivating world of jazz.
Lucky for us, he stayed wellbeyond his academic journey and
(01:55):
I had the chance to sit downwith him in person to pick his
brain about life as a musicianand artist and, well, about life
in general.
Our conversation got prettyphilosophical, but that's only
fitting when talking about thearts.
I won't spoil too much.
So without further ado, voiciPierre Harrell.
Pierre Hurel (02:15):
I'm Pierre Hurel.
I came from Paris many, manyyears ago to study in Boston and
I liked it so much that I neverleft.
And I still live in Boston, andI'm a pianist, composer,
arranger, producer.
But I'm also an artist.
I paint and I'm also a teacher,which is ironically how we met.
(02:41):
But a lot of these activitiesthat I do in my life have to do
with communication and giving.
I would say giving music,giving knowledge if you're
teaching, sharing your paintings, and so I think a lot has to do
with you know, the humaninteraction, the act of giving
and sharing.
Layla Palmer (02:57):
Well, you mentioned that your life spans
music and teaching and paintingand all these creative things.
So what's that one thread thatreally connects them all?
Pierre Hurel (03:09):
The thread.
It's not always easy to see thelight and understand what it is
, but I'm suspecting that thethread is a desire to express
something.
I think from a young age I wasalways a very sensitive person.
My mother used to say tu estrès sensible, peut-être trop
sensible.
(03:29):
You're very sensitive, maybetoo sensitive, which of course I
didn't like.
But looking back, I have toadmit that my senses were always
very active.
So I, you know, I smell.
I love to smell like wine,fragrance, the seasons.
I love the winter, the smell ofthe winter.
(03:49):
I love, of course, the fall, Ilove cooking, but I also love to
touch, you know, I know thedifference between wool and
cashmere, and you know what Imean.
Or silk, I just, I think, allmy senses, I'm a very visual
person, but I'm also hearingdetails.
Music is my primary language ofexpression.
So I think the common threadmay be this sort of
(04:13):
hypersensitivity that had tofind outlets.
When you're very sensitive,everything touches you in a
profound way, and if you do havean outlet, you can then
translate, or try to translate,what it is that you have been
feeling, noticing, sensing, intosome art form, and I think
(04:35):
that's what attracts me to thearts in general, when I go to a
museum, I see primarily myfellow humans having had an
opportunity to expressthemselves, to express something
they observed.
Like you know, likephilosophers we're all
philosophers, we're all thinkers.
We feel things very deeply andthe lucky ones have an outlet
(04:56):
and they can express it.
And I think that is probablythe common thread is the idea of
expression is very important.
Layla Palmer (05:03):
Yeah that you have such a way with words.
Thank you, so you mentionedthat you were from France.
You moved here to come toschool, so where did you go to
school?
Pierre Hurel (05:15):
I went to Berkeley .
Layla Palmer (05:16):
Oh, okay, makes sense.
Yeah, that's right, makes sense.
Pierre Hurel (05:18):
And it's kind of interesting because I went to
Berkeley as a summer program andI was young.
So when you're young, yousometimes, sometimes you can be
a little bit arrogant, or atleast the concept of time is
foreign to you as a young person.
And so they had a summerprogram and I thought, well, I'm
going to go to Berkeley onesemester and I'm going to figure
(05:40):
out everything that I need tofigure out about music.
And at the end of the summerprogram I called my parents in
Paris and I said well, you know,if I could stay, maybe one more
semester, I think with twosemesters I'll be done, I will
know everything.
And, long story short, I wentall the way and I continue to
study music.
I'm still studying music and Ithink that's one of the great
(06:01):
great things about the arts.
You, one of the great greatthings about the arts is that
you never stop learning, younever stop.
You never stop because themedium changes, but you change
too.
And this is something I reallydid not realize when I was
younger is the notion of cycle,just like the seasons.
Or when my wife was pregnant,noticing how her belly would
(06:24):
change, and after nine monthsour baby was born and he was
totally awesome and you know,with the little nails and
everything.
And I think life is full ofthese little moments, these
cycles, you know.
So when you're young, sometimesyou think you know you're done.
This is me.
I believe this.
I don't believe that I want todo this and it's lovely to have
(06:44):
convictions, but you know, whatI knew about music then has
nothing to do with what I kneweven five years ago, 10 years
ago, but also, as I was saying,not because the medium changes,
but your perception changes.
You know, you change as aperson.
When I see people around me, Ican see where they are in
(07:04):
relation to the movie of life.
You know, some just entered theprojection room and they're
about to sit down, some havebeen sitting for a little bit
and they're eating their popcornand some are halfway through
the movie.
Some are getting very close tothe end and some are done.
The movie just kind of ended.
(07:25):
They are maybe retired, maybethey don't seek the magic of
life anymore.
I hope it never happens to me,but I just think we go through
all these cycles.
For me, the realization thatthe study of music is endless,
absolutely endless, is somethingthat I didn't know, when I was
young I thought you studysomething, you sort of crack the
(07:47):
nut, you figure it out, you getto the bottom of things and
then you're done.
Then you start touring ormaking a living from it and
everything.
But over the years I realizedthat's not really how it happens
.
Fine, welcome to life, you know.
Welcome to believing insomething and betting on
something.
Layla Palmer (08:09):
You heard Pierre.
He's been in Boston for quite awhile.
I've only been here for a fewyears, but I've always loved
immersing myself in the livemusic scene.
So I asked Pierre about thejazz clubs in Boston and,
without realizing it, I walkedright into a history lesson on
the city's jazz scene.
What started as a conversationabout where to catch live jazz
(08:31):
quickly turned into a reflectionon the clubs that once defined
Boston's nightlife, many ofwhich are now just memories, as
the city's fascination with thegenre has faded over time.
On the topic of jazz, I cause Ihave to ask what do you think
of Wally's Jazz Club?
I've never been on Mass Ave.
Pierre Hurel (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, you know I haven't been in years.
I never played there becausethey didn't have a piano.
It's a very authentic place.
It became in the South End thissort of hip because it was like
this real, the real thing Backin the 80s.
It was not like that.
Back in the 80s it was morelike a real jazz club like the
(09:11):
1369 in Cambridge or Riles, youknow like these were just jazz
clubs.
They were still an interest.
Riles doesn't exist anymore,1369, a lot of these clubs
actually closed.
So jazz, you have to accept itfor what it is.
Jazz is not a popular form ofexpression.
If I walk around Berkeley Icould find 10 people who know
(09:32):
about jazz and they know thisperformer, that performer, they
know who was playing the bass onthis record and who was the
drummer.
They are really excited aboutit.
But that's not representativeof real life.
Real life is that most peopledon't listen to jazz.
They don't really care about it.
But that's not representativeof real life.
Real life is that most peopledon't listen to jazz.
They don't really care about it.
Some people think that jazz hasbecome too intellectual, too
complicated and, starting in the50s, jazz starts to become far
(09:58):
less commercial Jazz used to belike you're a young person.
If you were a young person inthe 20s and you went dancing
with your friends, you werelistening to jazz.
That's the what, that was, themusic.
Layla Palmer (10:09):
That's what I still look for today to go out
dancing.
Love it, but I'm not into thevibe of the music these days.
I like something more that Ican like actually groove and
yeah, yeah, move my body, yeah.
So I definitely gravitate forjazz.
I listen, listened to jazz whenI studied oh wonderful, yeah.
Pierre Hurel (10:27):
Okay, well, you're one of the few people who carry
the torch of this great.
I mean, it's such a rich formof music.
You know we always talk aboutclassical music.
I'm really into classical music.
My students are mostlyclassical musicians at the
conservatory and I listen toclassical music all the time and
I play classical music.
But jazz, which is profoundlydifferent although you could say
(10:49):
music is music, but profoundlydifferent from classical music,
is such a rich form ofexpression punctuated by true
geniuses, creative people likepeople like Charlie Parker, john
Coltrane, thelonious Monk,amazing, amazing geniuses.
You know the, the music theyhave left behind.
(11:10):
We call them standards, jazzstandards, and everyone is
playing them to this day.
Everyone is recording them andit's funny because we call them
standards, but they're less andless standards for people
because they don't know.
You know jazz musicians be like.
We should close with awell-known tune like a
well-known jazz standards.
You can go along, you can say,sure, that's famous, but it's
famous for for who?
(11:31):
For you know people who, wholived in the 60s maybe, but it's
no longer really a tune thatand that people would know.
So it's kind of funny how thathas changed as well.
Layla Palmer (11:42):
I met Pierre in the fall of 2024 when he taught
my French class Easily one ofthe best experiences I've had
learning a foreign language.
But teaching French is just aside gig for him, his main focus
leading classical improvisationclasses at the Boston
Conservatory at Berkeley.
In fact, his classical improvworkshop is coming up on its
(12:04):
20th anniversary.
Let's hear more about how itall started and what has kept it
thriving for two decades.
So why don't you talk aboutyour teaching?
You teach an improvisationworkshop that is coming up on
its 20th anniversaryCongratulations.
Pierre Hurel (12:21):
Thank you.
Layla Palmer (12:21):
So why don't you talk about that?
Pierre Hurel (12:24):
I'm very happy to talk about this.
You will have to stop me if Italk too much about it Because
in 2004, I was already teachingat the Boston Conservatory.
I was teaching French.
There, I was teaching a Frenchcourse to singers.
Singers have to study Italian,german and French because they
need to sing the repertoire, theclassical repertoire, and I
give them a proposal around 2002, a proposal to do an improv
(12:49):
workshop to teach improvisation.
And I did it because I washanging out with a lot of
classical musicians.
My wife is a classical pianistand I noticed that classical
musicians had the heart, thechops, the desire, but somehow
they would rather die than beasked to improvise anything
(13:12):
because they're so used topreparing things.
Score, you open it, you look ifyou're a pianist, you check the
fingering okay, with your penciland eraser okay, on this, a
flat, I'm gonna do.
I think I'm gonna do three andthen four, then one.
Like you really think of thedetails, details, details, and
it's a wonderful art form, butyou don't spend any time
(13:34):
improvising, which is ironicbecause the composers who wrote
these pieces of music thatthey're playing today the Chopin
, the Mendelssohn, the Liszt,the Bach, of course, mozart,
beethoven, all these people, allthe way to the 20th century.
People like Ravel or Debussyall these people were great
improvisers, so composers wereimprovisers.
But somehow, in the mid 1800s,more or less musicians started
(13:58):
to pursue the art of playingother people's music without
being themselves composers, andso they were not improvisers
because those skills were notneeded.
Give me the score, I will learnit.
I have the chops, I have theintelligence to figure out
what's going on and I will playit.
But back in the day it was lessperfect in a way, the playing
was less perfect in a way, theplaying was less perfect.
(14:19):
But in any case, I thought Ishould do it.
It would really change theirlife and it did.
That's really what happened.
I started in 2004.
I had one section.
Then very soon I was given twosections, right now, four
sections.
In September we're going tohave five sections.
The classes fill out veryquickly.
(14:40):
You need to send a permissionrequest because I need to give
you permission, because I haveonly 10 students, so I need to
make sure that I don't have, youknow, nine flutists or eight
violinists.
So I'm trying to have at leastone percussionist, a couple
pianists, some string players,maybe brass like trumpet,
trombone, some woodwinds to makea coherent group.
In fact, last night I closedthe semester.
(15:02):
I was talking after a classwith students.
What we really discuss on paper,we discuss non-idiomatic
improvisation, which isimprovisation that doesn't
belong to a particular idiom,like French is an idiom, english
is an idiom, but Baroque is amedium and romantic music is an
(15:22):
idiom.
You have certain rules fordifferent styles.
So what we're trying to do islike you play, you pull out your
flute and this person pulls outa smaller instrument, maybe a
bass, and you're at the piano.
How do you improvise?
Out of thin air?
You never rehearsed it, younever discussed it.
Very different from jazz, verydifferent from jazz.
(15:45):
You never rehearsed anything.
How do you make music?
I was talking about expression,I was talking about
communication.
When you study non-idiomaticimprovisation, you really study
the art of listening.
You talk, so you believe in whatyou have to say, and then you
listen to the other person.
So for my young musicians it'sa life-changing experience
(16:09):
because it makes them thinkabout the music, but it also
makes them think about thepurpose, like why do we do these
things?
Why do you make music?
What is the point If youoverplay somebody, if you play
too loud or too much, youoverwhelm the other person.
Is that really fun for theother person?
I'm going to guess not at allIf you underplay.
(16:30):
If you're, so, it's not thatyou're respectful, but you're
almost.
You don't believe in yourselfenough, you don't stand up for
yourself enough.
That's not good either, becausethe other person is like give
me something, talk, place, dosomething.
So you start to work on thepsychological dimension of
making music with others, whichmakes you a much better player.
(16:52):
You start to really think aboutwhy are we doing this right now
?
And also you start to becomemore aware of others and you
learn respect In French, lerespect In Latin, spéciré, to
see, réspéciré is to see around.
So to be respectful is to seearound, to realize that there
are other people around, thatyou should acknowledge the
(17:14):
existence of other people.
So when you play with othermusicians, you really want to be
hyper aware of others, becauseit's the group that matters.
And how can you be a good groupmember is really what we're
studying.
It's the class I wish I hadwhen I was their age.
It's a class where you're askedto play, but you're asked to
(17:35):
think, you're asked toarticulate your thoughts,
because you see, we play andthen we critique.
Layla Palmer (17:43):
Our conversation didn't just stay within the
realm of music.
Pierre spoke about somethingmuch deeper the importance of
acknowledging the pleasure oflife itself.
He connected this idea toimprovisation, explaining that,
just as a musician must be fullypresent and aware of what's
happening around them toimprovise with others, we too
have to be present in our ownlives to truly experience its
(18:06):
beauty.
What started as a discussionabout music turned into a
reflection on life, art and thesimple joy of being in the
moment.
Pierre Hurel (18:16):
It's an incredibly interesting art form to study
improvisation, and I do thatalso in my work as a painter.
My work is really abstract,expressionist.
It's not figurative, so youwon't recognize what you're
looking at.
But if you allow yourself toobserve and to sort of feel the
vibrations between the colors,you may feel something.
(18:37):
For me, this is the kind ofartwork that touches me the most
.
When I was a teenager, I wasinto surrealism, I was into
impressionism in my late teens,but now this has been for many,
many years.
The type of art that moves methe most is abstract
expressionism.
It corresponds to a particularsensibility that I have and the
(18:59):
freedom that you have becauseyou're not looking at an animal
or a steeple or a woman.
You know.
You're not looking at thingsyou would recognize.
You're just looking at acombination of shapes, colors,
contrasts, forms and you look atit.
And if you let yourself go, ifyou relieve yourself from the
(19:21):
imaginary responsibility that ithas to make sense, that it has
to represent something, then youcan really feel things very
deeply.
Actually it's really wonderful.
My mother would say when shewould look at my work.
She would say qu'est-ce que çareprésente?
What does it represent?
And of course it doesn'trepresent anything because it is
not figurative, it's not anapple, it's not anything.
It's colors, shapes, contrastand all these things.
(19:45):
But if you ever find a paintingof that type of that style of
painting that moves you, itreally connects you with the
magic of life.
You don't even know why you'reso moved by painting.
Motherwell was one of the greatabstract expressionists,
american, robert Motherwell, andhe was one of the leaders of
(20:05):
the movement.
They used to have a painting atthe MFA that I would go see
almost weekly, pretty largepainting, blue black line, very,
very simple.
But, as luck would have it,there was a little bench in
front of it and I would gostraight to the American wing of
was a little bench in front ofit and I would go straight to
the American wing of the MFA, tothe top floor, and I would sit
there and it was sort of ameditation on looking at this
(20:28):
painting.
I can't really tell you what it, why it was moving me so much,
because it's.
I don't know the answer, but itconnects you to all these things
in life that you can't quiteexplain.
You know, things move you in aparticular way Taste, visual
things, things you hear.
It's a very personal thing.
(20:49):
Why is it that this movie sodid it for you and doesn't do
anything for this other person?
It's one of those things thatwe can't really explain, but
it's kind of magic and magical,rather, and it's just, it's kind
of beautiful, I think.
Yeah.
Layla Palmer (21:02):
You're right, it's definitely like an inexplicable
thing.
You can't describe in words thefeeling.
Pierre Hurel (21:08):
That's right, it's almost like love like you're so
in love, and you love someoneor something so deeply that you
don't even have the words todescribe that it's funny you
would use the word love, becauseI'm so with you on this Sigmund
Freud, soon before he passedaway, when he was asked.
You know you have listened to amillion people talk, you have
(21:29):
analyzed a million things dreams, conversations.
What have you learned?
What is what, would you say?
And his words?
Well, it was translated fromGerman, but loosely translated.
He said love and work, thosetwo things.
And as I get older I can seewhat he meant, because when you
(21:49):
think of love, you could thinkof romantic love, but you could
also think of loving life lovinga good meal, loving to cook,
loving to hold hands with aperson, loving to go for a walk.
There's a way of being engagedwith the world.
But you have this moment ofacknowledging the magic of life
(22:14):
which never stops to amaze me.
And it's funny because I wasraised as a religious person, I
was raised as a Catholic, but Imoved away from it in in my 20s,
like some people do.
But there are many times todaywhen I'm still completely amazed
, blown away, as they would say,by the magic of life, the
(22:36):
beauty of life, the magic youknow when they see nature, fish,
the colors, the birds forget it.
How is that even possible?
This was this just came aboutlike that.
It's.
It's completely amazing.
Music, cuisine, life is justcompletely magical.
(22:57):
I mean, it's just.
You may not see it becausemaybe you're wearing the wrong
lenses or maybe the lenses youhave built over the years are, I
don't know, tainted to a pointwhere you really don't see.
You need to find a differentpair of lenses or maybe put
these down, which is not easy asyou get older, I find.
But if you have been constantlyallowing yourself to be amazed
(23:20):
by the magic of life, it reallyis.
It's incredible.
I mean, it's incredible theseasons, the fact that you can
see, the fact that you can hear,you know all these amazing
senses that we have and that youcan share.
So I think the word love thatyou mentioned I think love is
love is a big part of it.
(23:40):
I always feel like teaching isan act of love, making music is
an act of love, cooking is anact of love.
There's a lot of magic in life.
If you remove the art, thenwe're really in trouble.
Layla Palmer (23:53):
I think about that all the time.
Imagine a world without musicor something as simple as the
birds birds singing, you knowwhen you're taking a walk.
It does fundamentally changethe human experience.
Pierre Hurel (24:04):
For sure, and it connects you with people who
came before you.
You know this is also somethingwe're talking about cycles.
You know this understanding oflike.
If you study cuisine, you'rereally standing on the shoulders
of people who came before you,who invented this particular
technique, this dish andeverything In music.
Same thing.
(24:24):
You know you're never creatingthings out of thin air.
People came before you and soyou have the history of it,
which also helps.
If you study the arts, yourealize that you go through life
pretty quickly.
I mean, I used to hear thiswhen I was a young person like
you, and I don't think Iunderstood it, but now I'm
starting to really understand it.
That life, really, you don'tlive forever.
(24:46):
You're here and it's completelymiraculous that we're alive.
Don't get me started on thattoo.
It's completely miraculous thatyou're alive, that somehow you
survived, your parents survivedall sorts of things that could
have happened.
Somehow you got a chance tolive and if you're lucky, you
fall in love with something, anart form, an activity.
(25:08):
It doesn't have to be the arts,it could be anything.
Really, I see life as thisgiant.
You know these restaurantswhere you have all you can eat
buffet.
To me, that's life.
Life is all you can do, all youcan experience buffet-can-eat
buffet.
To me, that's life.
Life is all-you-can-do,all-you-can-experience buffet.
There's so much Beautiful.
Layla Palmer (25:27):
After a conversation that touched on
music, creativity and the art oftruly being present in life,
it's clear that for Pierre,improvisation isn't just a
technique, it's a way of living.
But I wanted to learn even moreabout his journey, so I asked
him to stick around for a fewmore minutes.
It's time for the careercountdown, A segment here on
(25:50):
Heart to Hustle that offers usone last glimpse into our
guest's journey in a fresh,inspiring way.
Through five rapid firequestions, Pierre will share the
creative inspirations andpersonal moments that have
shaped his career and artisticpath.
Let's dive in.
So let's start with number five.
What are five tools orinstruments and this could be
(26:13):
literally or metaphorically thatyou can't live without?
Pierre Hurel (26:17):
And this will seem funny but a metronome.
I have a really goodrelationship with my metronome.
A tool that is a metaphor of atool is meditation.
I think meditation is veryimportant, precisely because
meditating is a great way todisconnect yourself from the
narrative, the imaginary storiesyou tell yourself about the
world, about yourself.
(26:37):
So it's nice to empty your mind.
Three, obviously my piano.
I don't know what my life wouldhave been without my beloved
piano.
When I was younger I was atortured Parisian romantic.
I would get my heart broken allthe time.
I don't know how many times thepiano cheered me up and helped
me go through life.
So definitely piano Canvasesand painting equipment or
(27:01):
drawing equipment.
If I couldn't draw, if Icouldn't paint, I think life
would be terrible.
And the last one would beYouTube.
I love YouTube.
I cannot tell you how much Ilove YouTube.
Layla Palmer (27:13):
Wow, yeah, okay, an answer I wasn't expecting,
but I can relate to yeah.
Okay, so number four.
What are four qualities thatevery great musician or artist
needs to be successful?
Pierre Hurel (27:27):
The first one is tenacity.
Resistance and go throughresistance Like it's not easy.
You have days where you couldcry, you have days where you
could get really discouraged.
So tenacity is one of them.
To have patience, to realizethat you practice this today.
You practice these two measures.
They're not coming through.
(27:47):
Quite well, it's Monday, you doit Tuesday.
Look, it's a little bit better.
Within a week you can reallyplay them.
So I think patience is one.
Three, be able to connect withothers.
You need to be able to pick upthe phone or pick up you know
your Gmail and send emails andsend.
You know you need to make theseconnections with people.
(28:08):
For some it's very easy.
For others, like me, it's veryhard.
I always find it difficult tosell anything.
I could sell other people'swork more easily, I would think,
but to sell your own work isdifficult.
So definitely, ability toconnect with others.
And four, and it's veryimportant is your ability to pay
(28:30):
attention to details.
If you meet directors, chefs,bakers, musicians, sooner or
later you're going to start tonotice the importance of details
.
If you're going to be sort offlying over the experience,
you're going to wake up feelinglike, how come I don't know this
.
How come I never noticed this?
(28:51):
Because I think you need toreally pay attention to details.
Details really matter.
Layla Palmer (28:57):
So number three oh , this is going to be fun.
If your life were painted on acanvas, what would be the three
dominant colors and why?
Pierre Hurel (29:06):
So definitely black.
Matisse, a French painter, wasone of the most important
painters to realize and teach us, people who came after him, the
importance of black when youuse other colors.
Black is a way to punctuatedifferent colors and to
(29:26):
exacerbate the vibration betweendifferent colors.
So black, you would have tohave it, because I would want
black, I would also want white.
So definitely white would beone of them.
The third one is difficultbecause I find that, again,
going back to this notion ofcycles, I think 10 years ago my
response would have been maybedifferent from what it is.
(29:48):
I am going through a sort of areddish, pinkish period.
But you know, a year ago Imight have said blue, because
blue is also one of my favoritecolors when I was younger.
Yellow, but see, now yellow andthe pigment is getting close to
red, to orange first and thenred.
(30:09):
So it's difficult for me togive you three exactly,
definitely black, definitelywhite and at the moment red hues
.
Yeah, I would say number two.
Layla Palmer (30:19):
What are two roadblocks that you've
encountered on your creativepath that taught you something
valuable.
Pierre Hurel (30:24):
Yeah, first one discouragement.
I think it has taught me thatyou have to be persistent.
Artists can be reallyself-critical, and even very
famous artists, for example BillEvans, very famous jazz pianist
.
His producer talks about BillEvans and says I've never met
someone who was more insecurethan Bill Evans.
And that tells you something,because to the outside world,
(30:48):
with a few good photos like alot of great photos of Bill
Evans, you know, with theglasses hunched over on the
piano maybe you would neverimagine this to be the case.
But the reality is that, yes,he was insanely insecure.
He doubted himself.
A lot of musicians doubtthemselves, so I think the sense
of self-doubt reminded me thatyou need to stay with it.
(31:12):
The second roadblock I hate toadmit it, but I come to an age
where I have to admit it is alack of knowledge of the
business of things, business ofmusic especially.
I think if I were to adviseyoung people I would say it
doesn't matter what you play.
In fact, berklee has a lot ofclasses for the business of
music.
I think it's very important.
(31:33):
You shouldn't be able to read acontract.
You shouldn't be able to knowhow to protect your music,
especially these days.
Good luck.
It's much more difficult nowwith the internet.
So yeah, knowing the legalaspects of what it is, you do.
Layla Palmer (31:48):
So final question, number one if you could bottle
your career as a vintage Frenchwine, what would you name it and
what would the label say?
Pierre Hurel (31:59):
Okay.
So I had to think of this.
This will surprise you.
For a musician, I wouldprobably call it, because I like
the sound of it, Chateau.
I would call it Chateau, whynot?
It would be like a greatBordeaux, maybe Chateau du
Silence, which iscounterintuitive, because why
would a musician want to createa wine that would be called
Silence, but actually one?
(32:21):
There is silence in music.
You have pauses and the musicthat comes right after has so
much more power because therewas silence before.
But essentially, it's becausethere's some kind of wisdom that
comes from being silent andfrom stopping the narrative in
your mind and not talking, whichis ironic because right now I'm
(32:42):
being interviewed.
So I'm doing all this talking.
But I do like silence a lot,and it may be the reason why I
love to paint, because when Ipaint I don't turn on the music.
I paint in silence.
You can just hear the brushesbrush against the canvas.
That's all you can hear.
So, Chateau du Silence, that'sall you can hear.
So, Chateau du Silence In termsof description, I think I would
(33:03):
put and we haven't talked aboutthis, but I would put plaisir,
confusion and clarté.
So pleasure, confusion andclarity.
Pleasure, because I think thatone of the primary forces, one
of the primary motivators, isthe pleasure the pleasure of
connecting with the canvas, thepleasure of seeing your work
(33:23):
when it's done, the pleasure ofgoing through the process of
creating work.
And then I chose these twoopposite or are they opposite
which is confusion and clarity.
I feel pretty clear about thefact that I'm confused at this
stage of my life.
I have accepted confusion, I'veaccepted that there are things
(33:44):
you're not supposed to explainand in that sense I'm very clear
.
Layla Palmer (33:54):
And that's a wrap on today's episode.
I knew Pierre would haveincredible insights on music and
art, but I didn't expect towalk away feeling like I just
had a philosophical awakening.
He really has a way with words.
Maybe it's the Frenchupbringing, maybe it's the
artist in him, or maybe I justgot lucky enough to sit across
from someone who sees the worldthrough such a poetic lens a
(34:18):
poetic lens.
Either way, this conversationwas a reminder that, whether
through music, art or just howwe move through life, being
present, embracing the momentand acknowledging the beauty
around us is what makes thisexperience of life so worthwhile
.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe, leave a
review and share it with afriend.
(34:38):
It really helps others find thepodcast.
And on that note, it's the endof the episode.
We'll see you next week.
Until then, thank you forlistening.
Have you ever had a side hustle, a side gig you
picked up for fun or maybe toearn a little extra cash?
Maybe you had a lemonade standas a kid or, like me, were fully
immersed in the world oftheater and dance, where each
experience ignited my passionfor the spotlight.
As we transition from thoseearly experiences into the
(00:24):
professional world, some sidegigs evolve into real passions
and sometimes even lastingcareers.
I've always been so curiousabout these stories, especially
the less conventional journeysthat redefine what a career can
look like.
They remind us that successisn't always a straight path and
that the heart behind ourhustle can lead us to unexpected
(00:46):
and fulfilling destinations.
I genuinely love exploring howother people's passions have
shaped their careers.
If you're into that too, joinme, layla Palmer, as I chat with
a captivating lineup of guestsfrom various industries to
uncover how they went from heartto hustle.
(01:14):
Salut Bienvenue.
Cette semaine, nous allonsentendre mon prof, pierre
Harrell, qui va nous parler desa vie de musicien de jazz.
Whoa, sorry, I don't know whatgot into me.
Let's start this again.
Hi, welcome back.
This week we're hearing fromPierre Harrell, a jazz musician,
(01:35):
music improvisation instructorand my French professor.
If you couldn't tell, pierre isa Paris native, originally from
the 7th arrondissement.
He came to Boston years ago asa student, drawn to the
captivating world of jazz.
Lucky for us, he stayed wellbeyond his academic journey and
(01:55):
I had the chance to sit downwith him in person to pick his
brain about life as a musicianand artist and, well, about life
in general.
Our conversation got prettyphilosophical, but that's only
fitting when talking about thearts.
I won't spoil too much.
So without further ado, voiciPierre Harrell.
Pierre Hurel (02:15):
I'm Pierre Hurel.
I came from Paris many, manyyears ago to study in Boston and
I liked it so much that I neverleft.
And I still live in Boston, andI'm a pianist, composer,
arranger, producer.
But I'm also an artist.
I paint and I'm also a teacher,which is ironically how we met.
(02:41):
But a lot of these activitiesthat I do in my life have to do
with communication and giving.
I would say giving music,giving knowledge if you're
teaching, sharing your paintings, and so I think a lot has to do
with you know, the humaninteraction, the act of giving
and sharing.
Layla Palmer (02:57):
Well, you mentioned that your life spans
music and teaching and paintingand all these creative things.
So what's that one thread thatreally connects them all?
Pierre Hurel (03:09):
The thread.
It's not always easy to see thelight and understand what it is
, but I'm suspecting that thethread is a desire to express
something.
I think from a young age I wasalways a very sensitive person.
My mother used to say tu estrès sensible, peut-être trop
sensible.
(03:29):
You're very sensitive, maybetoo sensitive, which of course I
didn't like.
But looking back, I have toadmit that my senses were always
very active.
So I, you know, I smell.
I love to smell like wine,fragrance, the seasons.
I love the winter, the smell ofthe winter.
(03:49):
I love, of course, the fall, Ilove cooking, but I also love to
touch, you know, I know thedifference between wool and
cashmere, and you know what Imean.
Or silk, I just, I think, allmy senses, I'm a very visual
person, but I'm also hearingdetails.
Music is my primary language ofexpression.
So I think the common threadmay be this sort of
(04:13):
hypersensitivity that had tofind outlets.
When you're very sensitive,everything touches you in a
profound way, and if you do havean outlet, you can then
translate, or try to translate,what it is that you have been
feeling, noticing, sensing, intosome art form, and I think
(04:35):
that's what attracts me to thearts in general, when I go to a
museum, I see primarily myfellow humans having had an
opportunity to expressthemselves, to express something
they observed.
Like you know, likephilosophers we're all
philosophers, we're all thinkers.
We feel things very deeply andthe lucky ones have an outlet
(04:56):
and they can express it.
And I think that is probablythe common thread is the idea of
expression is very important.
Layla Palmer (05:03):
Yeah that you have such a way with words.
Thank you, so you mentionedthat you were from France.
You moved here to come toschool, so where did you go to
school?
Pierre Hurel (05:15):
I went to Berkeley .
Layla Palmer (05:16):
Oh, okay, makes sense.
Yeah, that's right, makes sense.
Pierre Hurel (05:18):
And it's kind of interesting because I went to
Berkeley as a summer program andI was young.
So when you're young, yousometimes, sometimes you can be
a little bit arrogant, or atleast the concept of time is
foreign to you as a young person.
And so they had a summerprogram and I thought, well, I'm
going to go to Berkeley onesemester and I'm going to figure
(05:40):
out everything that I need tofigure out about music.
And at the end of the summerprogram I called my parents in
Paris and I said well, you know,if I could stay, maybe one more
semester, I think with twosemesters I'll be done, I will
know everything.
And, long story short, I wentall the way and I continue to
study music.
I'm still studying music and Ithink that's one of the great
(06:01):
great things about the arts.
You, one of the great greatthings about the arts is that
you never stop learning, younever stop.
You never stop because themedium changes, but you change
too.
And this is something I reallydid not realize when I was
younger is the notion of cycle,just like the seasons.
Or when my wife was pregnant,noticing how her belly would
(06:24):
change, and after nine monthsour baby was born and he was
totally awesome and you know,with the little nails and
everything.
And I think life is full ofthese little moments, these
cycles, you know.
So when you're young, sometimesyou think you know you're done.
This is me.
I believe this.
I don't believe that I want todo this and it's lovely to have
(06:44):
convictions, but you know, whatI knew about music then has
nothing to do with what I kneweven five years ago, 10 years
ago, but also, as I was saying,not because the medium changes,
but your perception changes.
You know, you change as aperson.
When I see people around me, Ican see where they are in
(07:04):
relation to the movie of life.
You know, some just entered theprojection room and they're
about to sit down, some havebeen sitting for a little bit
and they're eating their popcornand some are halfway through
the movie.
Some are getting very close tothe end and some are done.
The movie just kind of ended.
(07:25):
They are maybe retired, maybethey don't seek the magic of
life anymore.
I hope it never happens to me,but I just think we go through
all these cycles.
For me, the realization thatthe study of music is endless,
absolutely endless, is somethingthat I didn't know, when I was
young I thought you studysomething, you sort of crack the
(07:47):
nut, you figure it out, you getto the bottom of things and
then you're done.
Then you start touring ormaking a living from it and
everything.
But over the years I realizedthat's not really how it happens
.
Fine, welcome to life, you know.
Welcome to believing insomething and betting on
something.
Layla Palmer (08:09):
You heard Pierre.
He's been in Boston for quite awhile.
I've only been here for a fewyears, but I've always loved
immersing myself in the livemusic scene.
So I asked Pierre about thejazz clubs in Boston and,
without realizing it, I walkedright into a history lesson on
the city's jazz scene.
What started as a conversationabout where to catch live jazz
(08:31):
quickly turned into a reflectionon the clubs that once defined
Boston's nightlife, many ofwhich are now just memories, as
the city's fascination with thegenre has faded over time.
On the topic of jazz, I cause Ihave to ask what do you think
of Wally's Jazz Club?
I've never been on Mass Ave.
Pierre Hurel (08:51):
Yeah, yeah, you know I haven't been in years.
I never played there becausethey didn't have a piano.
It's a very authentic place.
It became in the South End thissort of hip because it was like
this real, the real thing Backin the 80s.
It was not like that.
Back in the 80s it was morelike a real jazz club like the
(09:11):
1369 in Cambridge or Riles, youknow like these were just jazz
clubs.
They were still an interest.
Riles doesn't exist anymore,1369, a lot of these clubs
actually closed.
So jazz, you have to accept itfor what it is.
Jazz is not a popular form ofexpression.
If I walk around Berkeley Icould find 10 people who know
(09:32):
about jazz and they know thisperformer, that performer, they
know who was playing the bass onthis record and who was the
drummer.
They are really excited aboutit.
But that's not representativeof real life.
Real life is that most peopledon't listen to jazz.
They don't really care about it.
But that's not representativeof real life.
Real life is that most peopledon't listen to jazz.
They don't really care about it.
Some people think that jazz hasbecome too intellectual, too
complicated and, starting in the50s, jazz starts to become far
(09:58):
less commercial Jazz used to belike you're a young person.
If you were a young person inthe 20s and you went dancing
with your friends, you werelistening to jazz.
That's the what, that was, themusic.
Layla Palmer (10:09):
That's what I still look for today to go out
dancing.
Love it, but I'm not into thevibe of the music these days.
I like something more that Ican like actually groove and
yeah, yeah, move my body, yeah.
So I definitely gravitate forjazz.
I listen, listened to jazz whenI studied oh wonderful, yeah.
Pierre Hurel (10:27):
Okay, well, you're one of the few people who carry
the torch of this great.
I mean, it's such a rich formof music.
You know we always talk aboutclassical music.
I'm really into classical music.
My students are mostlyclassical musicians at the
conservatory and I listen toclassical music all the time and
I play classical music.
But jazz, which is profoundlydifferent although you could say
(10:49):
music is music, but profoundlydifferent from classical music,
is such a rich form ofexpression punctuated by true
geniuses, creative people likepeople like Charlie Parker, john
Coltrane, thelonious Monk,amazing, amazing geniuses.
You know the, the music theyhave left behind.
(11:10):
We call them standards, jazzstandards, and everyone is
playing them to this day.
Everyone is recording them andit's funny because we call them
standards, but they're less andless standards for people
because they don't know.
You know jazz musicians be like.
We should close with awell-known tune like a
well-known jazz standards.
You can go along, you can say,sure, that's famous, but it's
famous for for who?
(11:31):
For you know people who, wholived in the 60s maybe, but it's
no longer really a tune thatand that people would know.
So it's kind of funny how thathas changed as well.
Layla Palmer (11:42):
I met Pierre in the fall of 2024 when he taught
my French class Easily one ofthe best experiences I've had
learning a foreign language.
But teaching French is just aside gig for him, his main focus
leading classical improvisationclasses at the Boston
Conservatory at Berkeley.
In fact, his classical improvworkshop is coming up on its
(12:04):
20th anniversary.
Let's hear more about how itall started and what has kept it
thriving for two decades.
So why don't you talk aboutyour teaching?
You teach an improvisationworkshop that is coming up on
its 20th anniversaryCongratulations.
Pierre Hurel (12:21):
Thank you.
Layla Palmer (12:21):
So why don't you talk about that?
Pierre Hurel (12:24):
I'm very happy to talk about this.
You will have to stop me if Italk too much about it Because
in 2004, I was already teachingat the Boston Conservatory.
I was teaching French.
There, I was teaching a Frenchcourse to singers.
Singers have to study Italian,german and French because they
need to sing the repertoire, theclassical repertoire, and I
give them a proposal around 2002, a proposal to do an improv
(12:49):
workshop to teach improvisation.
And I did it because I washanging out with a lot of
classical musicians.
My wife is a classical pianistand I noticed that classical
musicians had the heart, thechops, the desire, but somehow
they would rather die than beasked to improvise anything
(13:12):
because they're so used topreparing things.
Score, you open it, you look ifyou're a pianist, you check the
fingering okay, with your penciland eraser okay, on this, a
flat, I'm gonna do.
I think I'm gonna do three andthen four, then one.
Like you really think of thedetails, details, details, and
it's a wonderful art form, butyou don't spend any time
(13:34):
improvising, which is ironicbecause the composers who wrote
these pieces of music thatthey're playing today the Chopin
, the Mendelssohn, the Liszt,the Bach, of course, mozart,
beethoven, all these people, allthe way to the 20th century.
People like Ravel or Debussyall these people were great
improvisers, so composers wereimprovisers.
But somehow, in the mid 1800s,more or less musicians started
(13:58):
to pursue the art of playingother people's music without
being themselves composers, andso they were not improvisers
because those skills were notneeded.
Give me the score, I will learnit.
I have the chops, I have theintelligence to figure out
what's going on and I will playit.
But back in the day it was lessperfect in a way, the playing
was less perfect in a way, theplaying was less perfect.
(14:19):
But in any case, I thought Ishould do it.
It would really change theirlife and it did.
That's really what happened.
I started in 2004.
I had one section.
Then very soon I was given twosections, right now, four
sections.
In September we're going tohave five sections.
The classes fill out veryquickly.
(14:40):
You need to send a permissionrequest because I need to give
you permission, because I haveonly 10 students, so I need to
make sure that I don't have, youknow, nine flutists or eight
violinists.
So I'm trying to have at leastone percussionist, a couple
pianists, some string players,maybe brass like trumpet,
trombone, some woodwinds to makea coherent group.
In fact, last night I closedthe semester.
(15:02):
I was talking after a classwith students.
What we really discuss on paper,we discuss non-idiomatic
improvisation, which isimprovisation that doesn't
belong to a particular idiom,like French is an idiom, english
is an idiom, but Baroque is amedium and romantic music is an
(15:22):
idiom.
You have certain rules fordifferent styles.
So what we're trying to do islike you play, you pull out your
flute and this person pulls outa smaller instrument, maybe a
bass, and you're at the piano.
How do you improvise?
Out of thin air?
You never rehearsed it, younever discussed it.
Very different from jazz, verydifferent from jazz.
(15:45):
You never rehearsed anything.
How do you make music?
I was talking about expression,I was talking about
communication.
When you study non-idiomaticimprovisation, you really study
the art of listening.
You talk, so you believe in whatyou have to say, and then you
listen to the other person.
So for my young musicians it'sa life-changing experience
(16:09):
because it makes them thinkabout the music, but it also
makes them think about thepurpose, like why do we do these
things?
Why do you make music?
What is the point If youoverplay somebody, if you play
too loud or too much, youoverwhelm the other person.
Is that really fun for theother person?
I'm going to guess not at allIf you underplay.
(16:30):
If you're, so, it's not thatyou're respectful, but you're
almost.
You don't believe in yourselfenough, you don't stand up for
yourself enough.
That's not good either, becausethe other person is like give
me something, talk, place, dosomething.
So you start to work on thepsychological dimension of
making music with others, whichmakes you a much better player.
(16:52):
You start to really think aboutwhy are we doing this right now
?
And also you start to becomemore aware of others and you
learn respect In French, lerespect In Latin, spéciré, to
see, réspéciré is to see around.
So to be respectful is to seearound, to realize that there
are other people around, thatyou should acknowledge the
(17:14):
existence of other people.
So when you play with othermusicians, you really want to be
hyper aware of others, becauseit's the group that matters.
And how can you be a good groupmember is really what we're
studying.
It's the class I wish I hadwhen I was their age.
It's a class where you're askedto play, but you're asked to
(17:35):
think, you're asked toarticulate your thoughts,
because you see, we play andthen we critique.
Layla Palmer (17:43):
Our conversation didn't just stay within the
realm of music.
Pierre spoke about somethingmuch deeper the importance of
acknowledging the pleasure oflife itself.
He connected this idea toimprovisation, explaining that,
just as a musician must be fullypresent and aware of what's
happening around them toimprovise with others, we too
have to be present in our ownlives to truly experience its
(18:06):
beauty.
What started as a discussionabout music turned into a
reflection on life, art and thesimple joy of being in the
moment.
Pierre Hurel (18:16):
It's an incredibly interesting art form to study
improvisation, and I do thatalso in my work as a painter.
My work is really abstract,expressionist.
It's not figurative, so youwon't recognize what you're
looking at.
But if you allow yourself toobserve and to sort of feel the
vibrations between the colors,you may feel something.
(18:37):
For me, this is the kind ofartwork that touches me the most
.
When I was a teenager, I wasinto surrealism, I was into
impressionism in my late teens,but now this has been for many,
many years.
The type of art that moves methe most is abstract
expressionism.
It corresponds to a particularsensibility that I have and the
(18:59):
freedom that you have becauseyou're not looking at an animal
or a steeple or a woman.
You know.
You're not looking at thingsyou would recognize.
You're just looking at acombination of shapes, colors,
contrasts, forms and you look atit.
And if you let yourself go, ifyou relieve yourself from the
(19:21):
imaginary responsibility that ithas to make sense, that it has
to represent something, then youcan really feel things very
deeply.
Actually it's really wonderful.
My mother would say when shewould look at my work.
She would say qu'est-ce que çareprésente?
What does it represent?
And of course it doesn'trepresent anything because it is
not figurative, it's not anapple, it's not anything.
It's colors, shapes, contrastand all these things.
(19:45):
But if you ever find a paintingof that type of that style of
painting that moves you, itreally connects you with the
magic of life.
You don't even know why you'reso moved by painting.
Motherwell was one of the greatabstract expressionists,
american, robert Motherwell, andhe was one of the leaders of
(20:05):
the movement.
They used to have a painting atthe MFA that I would go see
almost weekly, pretty largepainting, blue black line, very,
very simple.
But, as luck would have it,there was a little bench in
front of it and I would gostraight to the American wing of
was a little bench in front ofit and I would go straight to
the American wing of the MFA, tothe top floor, and I would sit
there and it was sort of ameditation on looking at this
(20:28):
painting.
I can't really tell you what it, why it was moving me so much,
because it's.
I don't know the answer, but itconnects you to all these things
in life that you can't quiteexplain.
You know, things move you in aparticular way Taste, visual
things, things you hear.
It's a very personal thing.
(20:49):
Why is it that this movie sodid it for you and doesn't do
anything for this other person?
It's one of those things thatwe can't really explain, but
it's kind of magic and magical,rather, and it's just, it's kind
of beautiful, I think.
Yeah.
Layla Palmer (21:02):
You're right, it's definitely like an inexplicable
thing.
You can't describe in words thefeeling.
Pierre Hurel (21:08):
That's right, it's almost like love like you're so
in love, and you love someoneor something so deeply that you
don't even have the words todescribe that it's funny you
would use the word love, becauseI'm so with you on this Sigmund
Freud, soon before he passedaway, when he was asked.
You know you have listened to amillion people talk, you have
(21:29):
analyzed a million things dreams, conversations.
What have you learned?
What is what, would you say?
And his words?
Well, it was translated fromGerman, but loosely translated.
He said love and work, thosetwo things.
And as I get older I can seewhat he meant, because when you
(21:49):
think of love, you could thinkof romantic love, but you could
also think of loving life lovinga good meal, loving to cook,
loving to hold hands with aperson, loving to go for a walk.
There's a way of being engagedwith the world.
But you have this moment ofacknowledging the magic of life
(22:14):
which never stops to amaze me.
And it's funny because I wasraised as a religious person, I
was raised as a Catholic, but Imoved away from it in in my 20s,
like some people do.
But there are many times todaywhen I'm still completely amazed
, blown away, as they would say,by the magic of life, the
(22:36):
beauty of life, the magic youknow when they see nature, fish,
the colors, the birds forget it.
How is that even possible?
This was this just came aboutlike that.
It's.
It's completely amazing.
Music, cuisine, life is justcompletely magical.
(22:57):
I mean, it's just.
You may not see it becausemaybe you're wearing the wrong
lenses or maybe the lenses youhave built over the years are, I
don't know, tainted to a pointwhere you really don't see.
You need to find a differentpair of lenses or maybe put
these down, which is not easy asyou get older, I find.
But if you have been constantlyallowing yourself to be amazed
(23:20):
by the magic of life, it reallyis.
It's incredible.
I mean, it's incredible theseasons, the fact that you can
see, the fact that you can hear,you know all these amazing
senses that we have and that youcan share.
So I think the word love thatyou mentioned I think love is
love is a big part of it.
(23:40):
I always feel like teaching isan act of love, making music is
an act of love, cooking is anact of love.
There's a lot of magic in life.
If you remove the art, thenwe're really in trouble.
Layla Palmer (23:53):
I think about that all the time.
Imagine a world without musicor something as simple as the
birds birds singing, you knowwhen you're taking a walk.
It does fundamentally changethe human experience.
Pierre Hurel (24:04):
For sure, and it connects you with people who
came before you.
You know this is also somethingwe're talking about cycles.
You know this understanding oflike.
If you study cuisine, you'rereally standing on the shoulders
of people who came before you,who invented this particular
technique, this dish andeverything In music.
Same thing.
(24:24):
You know you're never creatingthings out of thin air.
People came before you and soyou have the history of it,
which also helps.
If you study the arts, yourealize that you go through life
pretty quickly.
I mean, I used to hear thiswhen I was a young person like
you, and I don't think Iunderstood it, but now I'm
starting to really understand it.
That life, really, you don'tlive forever.
(24:46):
You're here and it's completelymiraculous that we're alive.
Don't get me started on thattoo.
It's completely miraculous thatyou're alive, that somehow you
survived, your parents survivedall sorts of things that could
have happened.
Somehow you got a chance tolive and if you're lucky, you
fall in love with something, anart form, an activity.
(25:08):
It doesn't have to be the arts,it could be anything.
Really, I see life as thisgiant.
You know these restaurantswhere you have all you can eat
buffet.
To me, that's life.
Life is all you can do, all youcan experience buffet-can-eat
buffet.
To me, that's life.
Life is all-you-can-do,all-you-can-experience buffet.
There's so much Beautiful.
Layla Palmer (25:27):
After a conversation that touched on
music, creativity and the art oftruly being present in life,
it's clear that for Pierre,improvisation isn't just a
technique, it's a way of living.
But I wanted to learn even moreabout his journey, so I asked
him to stick around for a fewmore minutes.
It's time for the careercountdown, A segment here on
(25:50):
Heart to Hustle that offers usone last glimpse into our
guest's journey in a fresh,inspiring way.
Through five rapid firequestions, Pierre will share the
creative inspirations andpersonal moments that have
shaped his career and artisticpath.
Let's dive in.
So let's start with number five.
What are five tools orinstruments and this could be
(26:13):
literally or metaphorically thatyou can't live without?
Pierre Hurel (26:17):
And this will seem funny but a metronome.
I have a really goodrelationship with my metronome.
A tool that is a metaphor of atool is meditation.
I think meditation is veryimportant, precisely because
meditating is a great way todisconnect yourself from the
narrative, the imaginary storiesyou tell yourself about the
world, about yourself.
(26:37):
So it's nice to empty your mind.
Three, obviously my piano.
I don't know what my life wouldhave been without my beloved
piano.
When I was younger I was atortured Parisian romantic.
I would get my heart broken allthe time.
I don't know how many times thepiano cheered me up and helped
me go through life.
So definitely piano Canvasesand painting equipment or
(27:01):
drawing equipment.
If I couldn't draw, if Icouldn't paint, I think life
would be terrible.
And the last one would beYouTube.
I love YouTube.
I cannot tell you how much Ilove YouTube.
Layla Palmer (27:13):
Wow, yeah, okay, an answer I wasn't expecting,
but I can relate to yeah.
Okay, so number four.
What are four qualities thatevery great musician or artist
needs to be successful?
Pierre Hurel (27:27):
The first one is tenacity.
Resistance and go throughresistance Like it's not easy.
You have days where you couldcry, you have days where you
could get really discouraged.
So tenacity is one of them.
To have patience, to realizethat you practice this today.
You practice these two measures.
They're not coming through.
(27:47):
Quite well, it's Monday, you doit Tuesday.
Look, it's a little bit better.
Within a week you can reallyplay them.
So I think patience is one.
Three, be able to connect withothers.
You need to be able to pick upthe phone or pick up you know
your Gmail and send emails andsend.
You know you need to make theseconnections with people.
(28:08):
For some it's very easy.
For others, like me, it's veryhard.
I always find it difficult tosell anything.
I could sell other people'swork more easily, I would think,
but to sell your own work isdifficult.
So definitely, ability toconnect with others.
And four, and it's veryimportant is your ability to pay
(28:30):
attention to details.
If you meet directors, chefs,bakers, musicians, sooner or
later you're going to start tonotice the importance of details
.
If you're going to be sort offlying over the experience,
you're going to wake up feelinglike, how come I don't know this
.
How come I never noticed this?
(28:51):
Because I think you need toreally pay attention to details.
Details really matter.
Layla Palmer (28:57):
So number three oh , this is going to be fun.
If your life were painted on acanvas, what would be the three
dominant colors and why?
Pierre Hurel (29:06):
So definitely black.
Matisse, a French painter, wasone of the most important
painters to realize and teach us, people who came after him, the
importance of black when youuse other colors.
Black is a way to punctuatedifferent colors and to
(29:26):
exacerbate the vibration betweendifferent colors.
So black, you would have tohave it, because I would want
black, I would also want white.
So definitely white would beone of them.
The third one is difficultbecause I find that, again,
going back to this notion ofcycles, I think 10 years ago my
response would have been maybedifferent from what it is.
(29:48):
I am going through a sort of areddish, pinkish period.
But you know, a year ago Imight have said blue, because
blue is also one of my favoritecolors when I was younger.
Yellow, but see, now yellow andthe pigment is getting close to
red, to orange first and thenred.
(30:09):
So it's difficult for me togive you three exactly,
definitely black, definitelywhite and at the moment red hues
.
Yeah, I would say number two.
Layla Palmer (30:19):
What are two roadblocks that you've
encountered on your creativepath that taught you something
valuable.
Pierre Hurel (30:24):
Yeah, first one discouragement.
I think it has taught me thatyou have to be persistent.
Artists can be reallyself-critical, and even very
famous artists, for example BillEvans, very famous jazz pianist
.
His producer talks about BillEvans and says I've never met
someone who was more insecurethan Bill Evans.
And that tells you something,because to the outside world,
(30:48):
with a few good photos like alot of great photos of Bill
Evans, you know, with theglasses hunched over on the
piano maybe you would neverimagine this to be the case.
But the reality is that, yes,he was insanely insecure.
He doubted himself.
A lot of musicians doubtthemselves, so I think the sense
of self-doubt reminded me thatyou need to stay with it.
(31:12):
The second roadblock I hate toadmit it, but I come to an age
where I have to admit it is alack of knowledge of the
business of things, business ofmusic especially.
I think if I were to adviseyoung people I would say it
doesn't matter what you play.
In fact, berklee has a lot ofclasses for the business of
music.
I think it's very important.
(31:33):
You shouldn't be able to read acontract.
You shouldn't be able to knowhow to protect your music,
especially these days.
Good luck.
It's much more difficult nowwith the internet.
So yeah, knowing the legalaspects of what it is, you do.
Layla Palmer (31:48):
So final question, number one if you could bottle
your career as a vintage Frenchwine, what would you name it and
what would the label say?
Pierre Hurel (31:59):
Okay.
So I had to think of this.
This will surprise you.
For a musician, I wouldprobably call it, because I like
the sound of it, Chateau.
I would call it Chateau, whynot?
It would be like a greatBordeaux, maybe Chateau du
Silence, which iscounterintuitive, because why
would a musician want to createa wine that would be called
Silence, but actually one?
(32:21):
There is silence in music.
You have pauses and the musicthat comes right after has so
much more power because therewas silence before.
But essentially, it's becausethere's some kind of wisdom that
comes from being silent andfrom stopping the narrative in
your mind and not talking, whichis ironic because right now I'm
(32:42):
being interviewed.
So I'm doing all this talking.
But I do like silence a lot,and it may be the reason why I
love to paint, because when Ipaint I don't turn on the music.
I paint in silence.
You can just hear the brushesbrush against the canvas.
That's all you can hear.
So, Chateau du Silence, that'sall you can hear.
So, Chateau du Silence In termsof description, I think I would
(33:03):
put and we haven't talked aboutthis, but I would put plaisir,
confusion and clarté.
So pleasure, confusion andclarity.
Pleasure, because I think thatone of the primary forces, one
of the primary motivators, isthe pleasure the pleasure of
connecting with the canvas, thepleasure of seeing your work
(33:23):
when it's done, the pleasure ofgoing through the process of
creating work.
And then I chose these twoopposite or are they opposite
which is confusion and clarity.
I feel pretty clear about thefact that I'm confused at this
stage of my life.
I have accepted confusion, I'veaccepted that there are things
(33:44):
you're not supposed to explainand in that sense I'm very clear
.
Layla Palmer (33:54):
And that's a wrap on today's episode.
I knew Pierre would haveincredible insights on music and
art, but I didn't expect towalk away feeling like I just
had a philosophical awakening.
He really has a way with words.
Maybe it's the Frenchupbringing, maybe it's the
artist in him, or maybe I justgot lucky enough to sit across
from someone who sees the worldthrough such a poetic lens a
(34:18):
poetic lens.
Either way, this conversationwas a reminder that, whether
through music, art or just howwe move through life, being
present, embracing the momentand acknowledging the beauty
around us is what makes thisexperience of life so worthwhile
.
If you enjoyed this episode, besure to subscribe, leave a
review and share it with afriend.
(34:38):
It really helps others find thepodcast.
And on that note, it's the endof the episode.
We'll see you next week.
Until then, thank you forlistening.
Host
Layla Palmer
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