September 7, 2022 • 31 mins
Phil & Priscilla Fretwell are co-authors of Savage Marriage where they share their true, raw, gut-wrenching journey of betrayal and healing from sexual addiction to true intimacy.
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(00:00):
Hey all! This is CamilleBattaglia with Heavenly Hookups.
I'm so excited to be here withmy guest, Phil and Priscilla
Fretwell of Savage MarriageMinistries.
They're going to share intimatedetails about their life's
journey and their healing frombetrayal after Priscilla
discovered Phil's sexualaddiction and what looked like a
picture perfect marriage.
I think you all are really goingto appreciate their honesty
(00:21):
about the facts and dangers ofpornography.
This is such an epidemic, evenin the church today.
I'm so grateful for their rawand real truth that we're gonna
hear.
They are also authors of SavageMarriage triumph, over betrayal
and sexual addiction.
They also have a small groupstudy guide.
And what I love about this bookSavage Marriage is that it is
(00:43):
written from both of their ownperspectives.
They're based in Orlando,Florida.
Phil is a successfulbusinessman.
He retired from a$2 billionglobal consulting firm where he
had been a founding managingdirector.
He was recognized as one of thetop 25 global leaders in
consulting.
Priscilla has invested her lifein the lives of others, starting
(01:06):
in Brazil, serving with hermissionary parents, a homeschool
mother to five and a coach towomen in troubled marriages.
And without further ado, let meintroduce you to Phil and
Priscilla.
Welcome.
I'm so happy you're here.
Well, we are glad to be here.
We are.
We are so thankful for thisopportunity.
(01:26):
This is a very interesting,topic that we don't really get
to hear much about.
I just thank you so much forbeing here for opening up your
hearts to all of us so that wecan learn from you.
Well, we have found that's thebest way to do it because, you
know, we spend time with a lotof couples.
And what we have found is thatwe shouldn't expect anybody to
be more transparent with us thanwe are with them.
(01:49):
And a lot of what we do issharing our story and
encouraging people to open upand share their story.
It kind of gives thempermission.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's wonderful.
But real quick, before we getinto all of that, let's find out
how you all met?
Oh, well we met many years agoat a church Christmas dinner and
(02:12):
we were probably I would saythat we both looked kind of
perfect and religious and thatshould have been a red flag at
the beginning.
Don't you think Priscilla?
It should have been, but we werepicture perfect back then, too.
Yes.
Yes.
And we thought it was too goodto be true.
And in fact it was.
Cause none of us perfect.
Yes, that's true.
We weren't very real back thenbut now we are, we've been
(02:33):
married coming up on 34 years.
We almost didn't make it, buthere we are.
Yeah.
Well, you guys, five, you guysdeserve a gold star.
I mean, 34 years.
And after what you've beenthrough, that's amazing.
Yeah, it is amazing.
It is amazing, but it'stransformed not only our lives,
but the lives of our family aswell.
And our kids, we have five kids,three, their adults, and married
(02:55):
two still at home.
Wow.
So that's great.
Do you, I guess you havegrandchildren maybe.
Yes, we do too.
Two little girls.
Yeah.
Aw, that's wonderful.
Yep.
Why don't we jump right into it?
So, Phil, how did all thisstart?
When were you exposed?
Well, you know, I think itstarted really back when I was
(03:16):
probably 10 or 11 years old, mydad had, left my mom for another
woman and they gotten a divorceand kind of all about the same
time, I found a box ofpornography out in my neighbor's
trash pile and brought it insideand started looking at it.
And so that ended up creating acomfort kind of inside of me
that helped me deal with a lotof pain that was happening from
(03:38):
my dad's departure.
I didn't know all that Camille,at that point, I wasn't able to
put that together, but thatreally was the beginning of the
hooks of pornography into mylife.
That's really interesting.
I also had a I guess, what wouldyou call it?
Opportunity with pornography, orthe images that I saw when I was
(04:02):
young, when I was babysitting,were with magazines and those
images were imprinted in mymind, for a long time.
Also when I was somewhat olderan living on my own with my
sister.
We had HBO when it was reallynew back then and there were,
shows on there that I watchedthat were in my head also for a
(04:25):
long time.
Yeah.
So we both had exposure to pornbecause, and neither one of us
realized it.
No, this is something we wouldnever talk about.
Yeah.
Cause remember we, we had tolook perfect to get married.
Yeah, cause we were looking forperfection, yeah.
Priscilla grew up in Brazil, thedaughter of missionaries.
So why in the world would I riskexposing, all of my shortcomings
(04:46):
here during our dating period.
Because I'm sure she would'vedumped me at that point.
At least that's what I thought.
Yeah.
It's like so many couples,right?
You put on a false exteriorduring the dating, to protect
yourself and then you wind upgetting married and the secrets
of your past eventually comeout.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You like to keep him and hiding.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
(05:07):
That's right.
And you probably didn't evenrealize it was an addiction or
maybe you did?
I don't know?
Well, back then, I'd say peopledidn't talk about it like that.
Yeah.
It was kind of one of thosethings guys get together and
they talk about this andeverybody, many, many guys
struggle with porn, but someguys will even talk about, you
know, I, I struggled with porn,I struggle with this, but very
few guys will take a step andsay, it's an addiction.
(05:30):
But when you start looking atthe hold that it has on men and
women, right?
So we, we we're finding now,women deal with this too.
Not in probably the numbers thatmen do.
But, it does hit a lot of theringers of addiction.
Although many times we'll say,Hey, this is a lot about our
choices that we've made.
We do have power to make rightchoices that God's given us and
(05:53):
we don't have to give into thesethings.
Yeah.
So fast forward Priscilla, howdid you discover his infidelity?
How did you discover the pornaddiction or the porn interest?
Well, the first time was 10years into our marriage.
(06:14):
Yeah.
10 years into our marriage.
It was through a video rental.
I found out they called thehouse and asked, if we had
rented a movie and I said, wedon't rent those kind of movies.
And I called Phil and he camehome right away.
And that's when he kind ofconfessed that he had watched
this movie in our home and I gotreally angry and bent outta
(06:36):
shape that he had brought thishome.
And then the second time was 17years later, 18 years later,
where he could not live withthis anymore.
And again, he came home and heconfessed everything that he was
doing and where he was spendinghis time on his trips.
That's how both of them came up,the first time I will tell you
(06:59):
we did what a lot of couples doand that is hide.
He did come clean about watchingthe porn in our home and he
also, came clean and we did whatmost people do and that is, put
it under the rug and, and notdeal with it.
Live in denial, basically thatthis is not happening.
(07:19):
And we didn't reach out toanybody.
We didn't reach out to ourfamily.
We didn't reach out to friendsor our pastors.
No one knew about our secret.
The second time around, Philbrought in, how would you call
it?
The idea of being honest witheveryone.
So what happened between 10years and 27 years into this is,
(07:43):
I had really kind of still wasstruggling with this.
I went through five years ofprofessional counseling.
I thought he was a goodcounselor, but I just, wasn't
honest with him and I continuedto struggle.
But what happens withpornography is it's a
progressive thing in your life.
And so it continues to move onand on and on and it's never
satisfied.
And so what was pornographyeventually turned in going to
(08:04):
massage parlors and this washappening all over the world.
Different places that I would goand I couldn't stop.
This went on for probably 10years or so into our marriage.
And I got to the place that Ijust did not want to live like
this anymore.
And I called out to God for arescue in my life.
I was very involved in ourchurch.
(08:24):
I was in leadership positionsand I just thought this was
going to absolutely destroy ourwhole marriage, destroy our
family and destroy my life.
Really.
I went to Priscilla.
And confessed.
We had a connection with aministry based out of Atlanta
called Whatever It TakesMinistries and a guy named Paul
Speed, who leads that came inand just really helped a lot.
(08:46):
And he showed me that I'd justnot been honest.
I had not been humble.
I needed to take a position ofhumility with Priscilla.
And bring her into everythingI've been doing.
And so that's what I did and itstarted with Priscilla, but then
it went on and I shared with ourchildren and our extended
family.
And it really started Camillebreaking the back of my own
(09:08):
pride and arrogance that I hadin my life that I did not want
to be seen and known by anybody.
Amazing that you did that.
That's a bold, bold move.
But that's really how you haveto do it, right?
Just come clean.
Yeah.
It was and what it did is ittook, everything out of the
hiding, because we knew that wehad to bring this to the light.
(09:31):
And when we did all the grip ofthat stuff that had been in my
life for so long, just startedlosing its power over me.
And then I brought Priscillainto the struggle I was having.
And so realized that, you know,she mentioned that she had some
porn too.
Well, I didn't know anythingabout that.
But as I started sharing and weboth started sharing, it was
kind of a mutual coming clean inthis, and she started sharing
(09:54):
about her own, that her own,impact in her life from the
pornography and everything.
So Priscilla, how were you ableto forgive him once he came
clean?
Well, to me, I think that is oneof the key things.
When we find ourselves in thispredicament, is the forgiveness
(10:18):
aspect.
As Phil mentioned that he wentto whatever it takes ministries
Four Days To Freedom.
I went to Four Days To Hope andit's a woman's side of that and
I went actually five days afterhe came clean.
They had a retreat and Iattended and I went up there
thinking that this was theanswer to our problems for him.
(10:42):
Like, we're gonna get thisstraightened out, Phil.
Yeah.
So you can't fix it.
I'm gonna fix it for you.
You know how that goes?
Yeah.
Yes.
There's nothing wrong with me.
Right, right.
I'm perfect.
There's nothing wrong with me.
But, in that weekend, up therein the Georgia mountains, God,
came and spoke to my heart and Iwill tell you, it was probably
(11:02):
the first time I think it, Iwill say it is the first time I
had heard God speak to me soclearly that I wasn't there for
Phil.
I was there for me.
And he wanted to fix what wasbroken in me.
And that weekend that's thewhole experience was me looking
at my life and seeing where am Iwith God?
(11:25):
And I realized through thatweekend that I had been in
rebellious towards God for mostof my life, I would say all of
my life really I was a veryunforgiving person.
I was critical.
I had a judgemental spirit a lotof bitterness and I walked in
fear my whole life.
And when I saw that and themost, I guess you would say the
(11:49):
biggest problem that I reallyhad was I was apathetic towards
God, and I really didn't careabout God's word.
I would do all the right things.
Right?
Going to church singing in thechoir, kids programs, missions
trips, I was doing everythingright.
Yeah.
But when that weekend, when itwas done, I realized how
(12:11):
apathetic I was towards my Godand I had no desire to even know
him my whole life.
Bible reading was almost nothingto me and the Bible studies that
I went to, I went there to talkto other women, you know?
But the place that forgivenesstook in my life was when I
realized how much Christ hadforgiven me.
(12:34):
Because there I stood before himand all of this crap that I had
been carrying for years and Irealized that he had forgiven
me.
Yeah.
And, um, and if he could forgiveme, he did, not if, he did
forgive me.
Yeah.
He could also forgive Phil andhe has forgiven Phil.
(12:55):
So I needed to forgive Phil andit was a supernatural experience
for me because it was a dailychoice that I made to forgive my
husband.
Yeah.
And, I will say that happened inApril.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
In November, Thanksgivingdinner.
We had Thanksgiving dinner hereat our home and I stood before
(13:16):
my family and in-laws andeverybody that was here,
everybody that was here, 18people.
Wow.
And I said, I want you all toknow that God has forgiven me
and I have forgiven Phil.
Wow.
And that's all I said.
Because from April to November,God had worked this in my life
(13:36):
and it was a daily decision thatI made, that if God forgave me,
I could forgive him.
And let go.
I do not need this, I can letgo, so that's what happened.
Wow.
That's amazing.
And so how was your relationshipafter that?
Did you still have sometriggers, like for the next six
months to a year or a coupleyears after that?
(13:58):
I would say five and a halfyears.
Uh, no, we still have triggers.
It's not as intense as it usedto be.
I think we get through themquicker than we used to but if
there's a trigger, yes, thereare triggers, I think.
But we talk through'em, we praythrough it.
We really do talk to each otherand wanting to know the root of
(14:19):
the problem.
And, so yes, we always tell ourpeople in Savage Marriage that
we have not arrived.
We are not the perfect coupleand everything is like, we have
not arrived, but we're not wherewe were five and a half years
ago.
And I praise the Lord for that,I mean, it's a wonderful thing
to be able to experience thislife with my husband and with
(14:44):
Phil.
And he knows me so intimatelynow, we did not know each other
this way before.
Yeah, it was very much of ahiding of who we really were
inside.
Mm-hmm.
And I think even in thesetriggers that sometimes pop up,
God is using that to reveal theinward, most pain and hurt that
(15:05):
we have.
It's a beautiful experience forus to walk through it together.
Yeah.
That's true intimacy when you'reable to be that vulnerable.
Right.
And real with each.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's incredible.
What do you tell your groupsthat come to see you or when
you're speaking about thedangers of porn, like most
(15:26):
people it's become so acceptablenow, right?
And people, kids are seeing at ayounger age.
I heard the other day that theaverage age that kids are
exposed to pornography is eightyears old.
Now.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
What do we tell the parents,like this is, this is what can
happen once you're exposed toit.
And these are the dangers of it.
(15:48):
Well, it's, you know, a lot ofpeople do talk about the
pornography today.
It's become more of a mainlineconversation, but, I think we've
come to the conclusion thatwe've been describing this
really not in the right terms.
Because what people are reallyhaving is a, not a pornography
experience, but a masturbationexperience that's enhanced by
pornography.
(16:09):
And the masturbation is reallythe seat of the shame because,
and nobody really thinks aboutit like this Camille.
There's a part of you that saysthere's nobody here to love me.
So I need to love myself.
I need to do this and insidethat feels extremely shameful.
So it's interesting.
People will say, we call it the"P" word.
(16:31):
Very few people will talk aboutthe"M" word because inside it
feels shameful in doing that.
Even saying the word, sometimespeople have a hard time saying
masturbation.
Yeah.
Right.
It's a real thing.
Most people have done it at somepoint and what that does is it
affects the wiring, the sexualwiring inside your brain.
(16:51):
And there's more guys probablyconnected and hooked on this
than women, but it's notexclusively a guy's issue.
Because we've talked to men andwomen who are both dealing with
this, but what happens isconnecting the sexual
experience, the orgasm to visualimages.
So what happens is men and womenget married and then the man can
(17:14):
actually, not perform sometimesnot climax without having the
porn.
Have you noticed how manyerectile dysfunction ads are out
there today?
Gosh, yeah.
I don't really watch TV anymore,but yes, I mean.
They're almost like everycommercial.
Every commercial.
Have you ever wonder where allthis stuff comes from?
I get it that there are medicalreasons for this too.
(17:37):
Right.
But when we've talked to menabout this, many men have
acknowledged that their porn usehas wired their brain to be
turned on by what they haveallowed themselves to be turned
on by.
And that becomes a giganticissue, even in very young men
that are getting married andit's a place of shame.
(17:58):
Nobody wants to talk about it.
So then they buy drugs to helpthem with it.
And their wife doesn't want totalk about it because that kind
of implies that maybe he's notso interested in her so it
creates shame on both sides ofthis equation, it really does
because you will be turned on bywhat you allow yourself to be
turned on by.
And if you're connected withthe, the porn.
(18:20):
So it's not just the porn, butit's the sexual climax that
attaches to what you're lookingat and makes you want to desire
whatever it is you've beenlooking at.
Yep.
And also the problem with thisand marriage, you have a spouse
that is looking at pornmasturbating, and now he's wants
to have intimacy with his wife.
(18:43):
It could be called, sexualintimacy with his wife.
But it's hard because the imagesthat he has in his head are not
of his wife and then what he hasbeen practicing with porn and
masturbation has been a selfishact.
So now he comes before his wifeand it's not one of a person
(19:05):
coming to give, but it's theperson coming to take.
Wow.
Because that has been his go-toI come to take.
I come to take from the videosor whatever I'm watching.
To now I want to take from youand the woman, of course, a lot
of women feel used.
There is no, there is nointimacy there, there's just a
(19:25):
coming to take.
And, it is, it's very hard.
A woman is never given the timeto have a sexual experience with
her husband.
That it is a giving experience.
It's more of a taking.
That's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
So how does pornography leadinto human trafficking?
(19:48):
Well, I think it's a gateway toit.
It really is because whathappens is the more that you are
looking at porn and focusing andmeditating on that sooner or
later, you want a real person onthat.
Now that might be 20 years.
It might be 30 years.
But, I would say every guy we'vetalked to that have been dealing
(20:11):
with massage parlors or anythinglike that, there is a root
somewhere back there of imagesand thoughts.
And sometimes it's been a traumathat's happened to'em and we've
talked to a number of guys thattheir dads encouraged them to go
to a prostitute when they'rereally young.
Mm.
Right.
So just a, that's an abusivething, but all those things
create the impetus for the guyto desire the variety and other
(20:35):
women and things like that.
And so they will create thedemand for this.
Then the human traffickers is abusiness, right?
They are fulfilling a demand.
But while the demand is there,there will continue to be a
business of human trafficking inpeople like that.
Mm-hmm it's a billion dollarbusiness.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
(20:55):
Gigantic.
Mm-hmm.
And what part of the world wouldyou say is the worst?
Uh, the U.S.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Within the U.S.
I've read that the three bigcities in the U.S.
are Las Vegas, Atlanta andOrlando.
Orlando?
Where everyone comes tovacation.
Right.
But you think about that astourist, right.
(21:16):
People get away from home,there's a level of secrecy, and
they want to do what they wantto do.
Yeah.
Wow.
So how do we protect our kidsand our family?
Well, I think with our childrenit's interesting.
We've thought a lot, we'vetalked to our older children
about what we did growing upwith them.
What worked well, what didn'twork well, and we've come to a
(21:38):
couple of conclusions that therehas to be an openness from
parents to talk about all thisstuff.
And not just from one parent orthe other.
So, Camille, I think the typicalthing is guys would talk to the
sons and moms would talk to thedaughters.
Right.
That's the typical thing thatstarts happening.
(21:58):
But implicit in that setup isthat this is kind of a secret
thing to talk about.
So son, this is dad, this is boystuff.
We're gonna talk about this, andmom didn't need to know and the
same way with the girls.
So we've turned that around.
We talk very openly to our kidsabout this both of us on both
sides.
Don't you think Priscilla,right, right.
And usually at the same time, Imean, it's a very normal
(22:21):
conversation for us to haveabout porn, about masturbation,
about trafficking.
I mean, all this stuff thatstarts happening.
Social media.
Social media.
Yeah.
But many times a parent does notwant to talk about this because
they have their own level ofshame and, baggage in their
life, sexual baggage that theydon't want to come out in the
(22:42):
open and they're afraid to talkto their kids about it, but we
encourage parents to talk about.
Because when they are open, itwill encourage their kids to be
open.
Because like you said, thisstuff is happening really,
really, really young.
Yeah.
And so there has to be thatlevel of openness and
transparency in the home foreverybody to be honest and talk
(23:03):
about it.
Yeah.
We really need to do that.
The things that come across yourphone, I have two phones, one
for work and personal, and it'samazing to me, the texts that I
get.
I think being proactive andtalking about these things will
help everybody, not even open itup and look at it, you know, out
of curiosity.
(23:23):
Yeah.
So what would you say to singlepeople who are dating?
How would they go about havingthis conversation?
Because they might not have itin marriage counseling if
they're, pre-marriagecounseling, if they even go to
that before they get married.
Well, I think one thing we'vealways told our kids as they've
gone up is you need to ask yourfuture spouse about what their
(23:44):
relationship has been with porn.
Yeah.
You know, the other day we weretalking to our girls about some
of the questions that need to beasked today.
Right.
The questions that we asked inthe past are different than the
questions that need to be askedtoday.
Correct.
Especially with all this genderstuff going on.
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of like, Hey,so did you ever dress as a girl?
(24:08):
If you're talking to yourboyfriend, I mean, these are
things that, Hey, did you ever,you know, encounter this in your
life?
Things that we would not everthink about asking.
Right.
And they need to be willing toshare their own.
Right.
Right.
Just right out there.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
So, I think asking questions, offuture people that we're
(24:30):
interested in, but also beinghonest about where you have
come.
Mm-hmm.
Do you guys do marriagecounseling or do you just help
people that are already married?
Well, it's interesting.
We've had requests from peoplethat are engaged and we are
gonna put together somethingeventually that covers that
(24:50):
piece, but it's a lot of thesame topics.
Really.
We work our way through.
In Savage Marriage, we talkabout the wounds of your past.
And how the, how your trauma andyour wounds of your past are
making decisions for you todayand without your permission.
And then we talk about the liesthat you've believed what's
happened in your, the soil thatyou've been planting in.
And what are the lies thatyou've believed and how does
(25:11):
that affect you today?
So we talk about those topicswith the married couples, but
those topics also need to bedealt with the engaged couple.
I'd say today, we're workingprimarily with married couples.
But it's interesting Priscilla,so I'd say especially the
couples that have been married30 years, 40 years, they say,
boy, I wish we would've knownthis before we got married.
Right.
(25:31):
That's right.
So yeah.
And we say that too, by the way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we wish he knew all thisstuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now how many couples do you see,on their second marriage, maybe
even their third marriage comingto you, dealing with this?
A lot it is interesting.
We went back the other day andwe were looking at several years
(25:52):
worth of history on couples.
And we have couples sometimesleave a group.
Like we get into it one, two orthree sessions, and it's really
tough stuff.
Right.
We're asking you hard questionsabout your past.
And so if you've been marriedtwo or three times, there is
some level of trauma in yourpast.
And when we say, and they'retrying to forget it as much as
(26:12):
they can, right?
Yeah.
And we're saying, no, we'regonna go back and look at this
because we want to understandhow it's gonna affect, how it's
affecting your marriage today.
And at some point, the couplesthat have left, I'd say many of
them were on a second and thirdmarriage, right Priscilla?
Correct.
But they did not want to go backand look at the past they've
tried their entire life toforget it.
And here we are, Phil andPriscilla wanting to talk my
(26:35):
abuse as a kid and I just don'twant to talk about that.
That's not a door I want toopen.
Right.
Yeah.
And so, I think that's whathappens, there's just more stuff
there and people are afraid toopen it.
So is there anything else that'son your heart that you want to
make sure that we talk abouttoday that I haven't asked you?
Well, I'd say one thing is wealways tell couples, there's no
(26:58):
silver bullet in this, right.
But if there was a silverbullet, this is what it would
be.
And this was, I would sayCamille was the big thing that
changed our relationship is wehad, I would say level of
spiritual and maybe religiousinvolvement and activity with
God individually, but we reallyhad no spiritual intimacy
(27:18):
together.
What God showed us is that if wewanted to be emotionally and
sexually intimate, we had tostart with spiritual intimacy.
And so we had to turn the wholerelationship completely back
around and start over again.
And that became the key becausethat gave us the fuel to develop
(27:40):
the emotional intimacy which ledto the expression and the sexual
intimacy.
That's right.
It's interesting how often, andour relationship started like
this too, which it started withthe emotional right.
34 years ago.
And I think most datingrelationships are like this,
that you start with theemotional.
And then you go to the physicaland then you get married.
(28:02):
Let's just say, you're abeliever and you go shoot.
Now we have to bring God intothis.
Yeah.
You know, we've done these twothings and we kind of let him on
the sideline and I will saythat's what happened with us
too.
Philip would do the devotionsevery now and there and, it was
kind of like.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
You know, but our life, ourdating life was not exactly,
(28:25):
what's that book that, that guy,Kiss Dating Goodbye or whatever?
Something like that, a lot ofChristians read that, don't do
anything before you're marriedanyway, ours wasn't like that
anyway.
I never heard of that book.
Oh, you haven't?
No.
So we never brought in thespiritual side of having
intimacy with God in with eachother in the spiritual realm.
(28:49):
Now we had religious activity.
We had activities.
We were big at church activity.
Yeah.
But we're not talking about theactivity that you do together.
That's all good.
But it's the conversations thatyou're talking about?
What is it that God is showingme about me?
What is he telling me?
What is he revealing to me in mylife and sharing that with Phil
(29:12):
and it's not, big, drawn outconversations.
It's just little things here andthere, but it's something that
we do on a daily basis as share.
What is it that God is showingme today?
Yeah.
And I was just thinking what ifthere's a single person
listening to this?
And they want to clean up theiract male or female and realize
(29:33):
this is now an issue afterhearing this podcast.
What would you recommend forthem to do?
So if somebody is single andthey're wrestling with sexual
immorality or trauma or whateverit is from their past, we would
recommend that they go to the,Whatever Tt Takes Ministries
conferences, and it'sWITministries.com.
(29:54):
And there's a Four Days ToFreedom for guys.
There's a Four Days to Hope forladies and they have a couples
intensive as well, and Priscillaand I coach at some of these
conferences and it's had a bigimpact on our life.
And I think that'd be a greatplace for people to start.
Thank you.
That's wonderful advice.
That's all the time we havetoday and we could talk about
(30:17):
the subject forever.
Yes, we could.
I'm so grateful for everythingwe've learned today, and I'm so
thankful to know you and I'mhonored that you would share
your story with all of us,because knowledge is power,
right?
Well, we're happy to do that andwe appreciate you bringing us
on.
Yes, thank you.
(30:37):
Oh, you're welcome.
So if anyone's looking forhealing or simply wants to gain
more spiritual, emotional, andsexual vibrancy in their
marriage, how can people reachout to you?
Or where can they buy your book?
Yeah, so we're on the internetat SavageMarriageMinistries.com.
And they can find our books onAmazon, just search under Savage
(30:59):
Marriage, Fretwell.
It will pop up both the workbookand the regular book.
And we also have a podcast onour website, on iTunes or
Spotify.
Just again, searching underSavage Marriage, Phil and
Priscilla, and it'll pop up.
Okay, wonderful.
Our time is up, but thanks forbeing here, go buy their book
and follow them for moreinformation on a
(31:21):
SavageMarriageMinistries.com.
In John 16:13, it says the Lordwill lead you into all truth.
If you would like to find moreHeavenly Hookups podcasts,
please follow us on Instagram atHeavenlyHookup_S or
HeavenlyHookups.com orCamilleBattaglia.com.
Thank you so much.
Hey all! This is CamilleBattaglia with Heavenly Hookups.
I'm so excited to be here withmy guest, Phil and Priscilla
Fretwell of Savage MarriageMinistries.
They're going to share intimatedetails about their life's
journey and their healing frombetrayal after Priscilla
discovered Phil's sexualaddiction and what looked like a
picture perfect marriage.
I think you all are really goingto appreciate their honesty
(00:21):
about the facts and dangers ofpornography.
This is such an epidemic, evenin the church today.
I'm so grateful for their rawand real truth that we're gonna
hear.
They are also authors of SavageMarriage triumph, over betrayal
and sexual addiction.
They also have a small groupstudy guide.
And what I love about this bookSavage Marriage is that it is
(00:43):
written from both of their ownperspectives.
They're based in Orlando,Florida.
Phil is a successfulbusinessman.
He retired from a$2 billionglobal consulting firm where he
had been a founding managingdirector.
He was recognized as one of thetop 25 global leaders in
consulting.
Priscilla has invested her lifein the lives of others, starting
(01:06):
in Brazil, serving with hermissionary parents, a homeschool
mother to five and a coach towomen in troubled marriages.
And without further ado, let meintroduce you to Phil and
Priscilla.
Welcome.
I'm so happy you're here.
Well, we are glad to be here.
We are.
We are so thankful for thisopportunity.
(01:26):
This is a very interesting,topic that we don't really get
to hear much about.
I just thank you so much forbeing here for opening up your
hearts to all of us so that wecan learn from you.
Well, we have found that's thebest way to do it because, you
know, we spend time with a lotof couples.
And what we have found is thatwe shouldn't expect anybody to
be more transparent with us thanwe are with them.
(01:49):
And a lot of what we do issharing our story and
encouraging people to open upand share their story.
It kind of gives thempermission.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's wonderful.
But real quick, before we getinto all of that, let's find out
how you all met?
Oh, well we met many years agoat a church Christmas dinner and
(02:12):
we were probably I would saythat we both looked kind of
perfect and religious and thatshould have been a red flag at
the beginning.
Don't you think Priscilla?
It should have been, but we werepicture perfect back then, too.
Yes.
Yes.
And we thought it was too goodto be true.
And in fact it was.
Cause none of us perfect.
Yes, that's true.
We weren't very real back thenbut now we are, we've been
(02:33):
married coming up on 34 years.
We almost didn't make it, buthere we are.
Yeah.
Well, you guys, five, you guysdeserve a gold star.
I mean, 34 years.
And after what you've beenthrough, that's amazing.
Yeah, it is amazing.
It is amazing, but it'stransformed not only our lives,
but the lives of our family aswell.
And our kids, we have five kids,three, their adults, and married
(02:55):
two still at home.
Wow.
So that's great.
Do you, I guess you havegrandchildren maybe.
Yes, we do too.
Two little girls.
Yeah.
Aw, that's wonderful.
Yep.
Why don't we jump right into it?
So, Phil, how did all thisstart?
When were you exposed?
Well, you know, I think itstarted really back when I was
(03:16):
probably 10 or 11 years old, mydad had, left my mom for another
woman and they gotten a divorceand kind of all about the same
time, I found a box ofpornography out in my neighbor's
trash pile and brought it insideand started looking at it.
And so that ended up creating acomfort kind of inside of me
that helped me deal with a lotof pain that was happening from
(03:38):
my dad's departure.
I didn't know all that Camille,at that point, I wasn't able to
put that together, but thatreally was the beginning of the
hooks of pornography into mylife.
That's really interesting.
I also had a I guess, what wouldyou call it?
Opportunity with pornography, orthe images that I saw when I was
(04:02):
young, when I was babysitting,were with magazines and those
images were imprinted in mymind, for a long time.
Also when I was somewhat olderan living on my own with my
sister.
We had HBO when it was reallynew back then and there were,
shows on there that I watchedthat were in my head also for a
(04:25):
long time.
Yeah.
So we both had exposure to pornbecause, and neither one of us
realized it.
No, this is something we wouldnever talk about.
Yeah.
Cause remember we, we had tolook perfect to get married.
Yeah, cause we were looking forperfection, yeah.
Priscilla grew up in Brazil, thedaughter of missionaries.
So why in the world would I riskexposing, all of my shortcomings
(04:46):
here during our dating period.
Because I'm sure she would'vedumped me at that point.
At least that's what I thought.
Yeah.
It's like so many couples,right?
You put on a false exteriorduring the dating, to protect
yourself and then you wind upgetting married and the secrets
of your past eventually comeout.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You like to keep him and hiding.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
(05:07):
That's right.
And you probably didn't evenrealize it was an addiction or
maybe you did?
I don't know?
Well, back then, I'd say peopledidn't talk about it like that.
Yeah.
It was kind of one of thosethings guys get together and
they talk about this andeverybody, many, many guys
struggle with porn, but someguys will even talk about, you
know, I, I struggled with porn,I struggle with this, but very
few guys will take a step andsay, it's an addiction.
(05:30):
But when you start looking atthe hold that it has on men and
women, right?
So we, we we're finding now,women deal with this too.
Not in probably the numbers thatmen do.
But, it does hit a lot of theringers of addiction.
Although many times we'll say,Hey, this is a lot about our
choices that we've made.
We do have power to make rightchoices that God's given us and
(05:53):
we don't have to give into thesethings.
Yeah.
So fast forward Priscilla, howdid you discover his infidelity?
How did you discover the pornaddiction or the porn interest?
Well, the first time was 10years into our marriage.
(06:14):
Yeah.
10 years into our marriage.
It was through a video rental.
I found out they called thehouse and asked, if we had
rented a movie and I said, wedon't rent those kind of movies.
And I called Phil and he camehome right away.
And that's when he kind ofconfessed that he had watched
this movie in our home and I gotreally angry and bent outta
(06:36):
shape that he had brought thishome.
And then the second time was 17years later, 18 years later,
where he could not live withthis anymore.
And again, he came home and heconfessed everything that he was
doing and where he was spendinghis time on his trips.
That's how both of them came up,the first time I will tell you
(06:59):
we did what a lot of couples doand that is hide.
He did come clean about watchingthe porn in our home and he
also, came clean and we did whatmost people do and that is, put
it under the rug and, and notdeal with it.
Live in denial, basically thatthis is not happening.
(07:19):
And we didn't reach out toanybody.
We didn't reach out to ourfamily.
We didn't reach out to friendsor our pastors.
No one knew about our secret.
The second time around, Philbrought in, how would you call
it?
The idea of being honest witheveryone.
So what happened between 10years and 27 years into this is,
(07:43):
I had really kind of still wasstruggling with this.
I went through five years ofprofessional counseling.
I thought he was a goodcounselor, but I just, wasn't
honest with him and I continuedto struggle.
But what happens withpornography is it's a
progressive thing in your life.
And so it continues to move onand on and on and it's never
satisfied.
And so what was pornographyeventually turned in going to
(08:04):
massage parlors and this washappening all over the world.
Different places that I would goand I couldn't stop.
This went on for probably 10years or so into our marriage.
And I got to the place that Ijust did not want to live like
this anymore.
And I called out to God for arescue in my life.
I was very involved in ourchurch.
(08:24):
I was in leadership positionsand I just thought this was
going to absolutely destroy ourwhole marriage, destroy our
family and destroy my life.
Really.
I went to Priscilla.
And confessed.
We had a connection with aministry based out of Atlanta
called Whatever It TakesMinistries and a guy named Paul
Speed, who leads that came inand just really helped a lot.
(08:46):
And he showed me that I'd justnot been honest.
I had not been humble.
I needed to take a position ofhumility with Priscilla.
And bring her into everythingI've been doing.
And so that's what I did and itstarted with Priscilla, but then
it went on and I shared with ourchildren and our extended
family.
And it really started Camillebreaking the back of my own
(09:08):
pride and arrogance that I hadin my life that I did not want
to be seen and known by anybody.
Amazing that you did that.
That's a bold, bold move.
But that's really how you haveto do it, right?
Just come clean.
Yeah.
It was and what it did is ittook, everything out of the
hiding, because we knew that wehad to bring this to the light.
(09:31):
And when we did all the grip ofthat stuff that had been in my
life for so long, just startedlosing its power over me.
And then I brought Priscillainto the struggle I was having.
And so realized that, you know,she mentioned that she had some
porn too.
Well, I didn't know anythingabout that.
But as I started sharing and weboth started sharing, it was
kind of a mutual coming clean inthis, and she started sharing
(09:54):
about her own, that her own,impact in her life from the
pornography and everything.
So Priscilla, how were you ableto forgive him once he came
clean?
Well, to me, I think that is oneof the key things.
When we find ourselves in thispredicament, is the forgiveness
(10:18):
aspect.
As Phil mentioned that he wentto whatever it takes ministries
Four Days To Freedom.
I went to Four Days To Hope andit's a woman's side of that and
I went actually five days afterhe came clean.
They had a retreat and Iattended and I went up there
thinking that this was theanswer to our problems for him.
(10:42):
Like, we're gonna get thisstraightened out, Phil.
Yeah.
So you can't fix it.
I'm gonna fix it for you.
You know how that goes?
Yeah.
Yes.
There's nothing wrong with me.
Right, right.
I'm perfect.
There's nothing wrong with me.
But, in that weekend, up therein the Georgia mountains, God,
came and spoke to my heart and Iwill tell you, it was probably
(11:02):
the first time I think it, Iwill say it is the first time I
had heard God speak to me soclearly that I wasn't there for
Phil.
I was there for me.
And he wanted to fix what wasbroken in me.
And that weekend that's thewhole experience was me looking
at my life and seeing where am Iwith God?
(11:25):
And I realized through thatweekend that I had been in
rebellious towards God for mostof my life, I would say all of
my life really I was a veryunforgiving person.
I was critical.
I had a judgemental spirit a lotof bitterness and I walked in
fear my whole life.
And when I saw that and themost, I guess you would say the
(11:49):
biggest problem that I reallyhad was I was apathetic towards
God, and I really didn't careabout God's word.
I would do all the right things.
Right?
Going to church singing in thechoir, kids programs, missions
trips, I was doing everythingright.
Yeah.
But when that weekend, when itwas done, I realized how
(12:11):
apathetic I was towards my Godand I had no desire to even know
him my whole life.
Bible reading was almost nothingto me and the Bible studies that
I went to, I went there to talkto other women, you know?
But the place that forgivenesstook in my life was when I
realized how much Christ hadforgiven me.
(12:34):
Because there I stood before himand all of this crap that I had
been carrying for years and Irealized that he had forgiven
me.
Yeah.
And, um, and if he could forgiveme, he did, not if, he did
forgive me.
Yeah.
He could also forgive Phil andhe has forgiven Phil.
(12:55):
So I needed to forgive Phil andit was a supernatural experience
for me because it was a dailychoice that I made to forgive my
husband.
Yeah.
And, I will say that happened inApril.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
In November, Thanksgivingdinner.
We had Thanksgiving dinner hereat our home and I stood before
(13:16):
my family and in-laws andeverybody that was here,
everybody that was here, 18people.
Wow.
And I said, I want you all toknow that God has forgiven me
and I have forgiven Phil.
Wow.
And that's all I said.
Because from April to November,God had worked this in my life
(13:36):
and it was a daily decision thatI made, that if God forgave me,
I could forgive him.
And let go.
I do not need this, I can letgo, so that's what happened.
Wow.
That's amazing.
And so how was your relationshipafter that?
Did you still have sometriggers, like for the next six
months to a year or a coupleyears after that?
(13:58):
I would say five and a halfyears.
Uh, no, we still have triggers.
It's not as intense as it usedto be.
I think we get through themquicker than we used to but if
there's a trigger, yes, thereare triggers, I think.
But we talk through'em, we praythrough it.
We really do talk to each otherand wanting to know the root of
(14:19):
the problem.
And, so yes, we always tell ourpeople in Savage Marriage that
we have not arrived.
We are not the perfect coupleand everything is like, we have
not arrived, but we're not wherewe were five and a half years
ago.
And I praise the Lord for that,I mean, it's a wonderful thing
to be able to experience thislife with my husband and with
(14:44):
Phil.
And he knows me so intimatelynow, we did not know each other
this way before.
Yeah, it was very much of ahiding of who we really were
inside.
Mm-hmm.
And I think even in thesetriggers that sometimes pop up,
God is using that to reveal theinward, most pain and hurt that
(15:05):
we have.
It's a beautiful experience forus to walk through it together.
Yeah.
That's true intimacy when you'reable to be that vulnerable.
Right.
And real with each.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's incredible.
What do you tell your groupsthat come to see you or when
you're speaking about thedangers of porn, like most
(15:26):
people it's become so acceptablenow, right?
And people, kids are seeing at ayounger age.
I heard the other day that theaverage age that kids are
exposed to pornography is eightyears old.
Now.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
What do we tell the parents,like this is, this is what can
happen once you're exposed toit.
And these are the dangers of it.
(15:48):
Well, it's, you know, a lot ofpeople do talk about the
pornography today.
It's become more of a mainlineconversation, but, I think we've
come to the conclusion thatwe've been describing this
really not in the right terms.
Because what people are reallyhaving is a, not a pornography
experience, but a masturbationexperience that's enhanced by
pornography.
(16:09):
And the masturbation is reallythe seat of the shame because,
and nobody really thinks aboutit like this Camille.
There's a part of you that saysthere's nobody here to love me.
So I need to love myself.
I need to do this and insidethat feels extremely shameful.
So it's interesting.
People will say, we call it the"P" word.
(16:31):
Very few people will talk aboutthe"M" word because inside it
feels shameful in doing that.
Even saying the word, sometimespeople have a hard time saying
masturbation.
Yeah.
Right.
It's a real thing.
Most people have done it at somepoint and what that does is it
affects the wiring, the sexualwiring inside your brain.
(16:51):
And there's more guys probablyconnected and hooked on this
than women, but it's notexclusively a guy's issue.
Because we've talked to men andwomen who are both dealing with
this, but what happens isconnecting the sexual
experience, the orgasm to visualimages.
So what happens is men and womenget married and then the man can
(17:14):
actually, not perform sometimesnot climax without having the
porn.
Have you noticed how manyerectile dysfunction ads are out
there today?
Gosh, yeah.
I don't really watch TV anymore,but yes, I mean.
They're almost like everycommercial.
Every commercial.
Have you ever wonder where allthis stuff comes from?
I get it that there are medicalreasons for this too.
(17:37):
Right.
But when we've talked to menabout this, many men have
acknowledged that their porn usehas wired their brain to be
turned on by what they haveallowed themselves to be turned
on by.
And that becomes a giganticissue, even in very young men
that are getting married andit's a place of shame.
(17:58):
Nobody wants to talk about it.
So then they buy drugs to helpthem with it.
And their wife doesn't want totalk about it because that kind
of implies that maybe he's notso interested in her so it
creates shame on both sides ofthis equation, it really does
because you will be turned on bywhat you allow yourself to be
turned on by.
And if you're connected withthe, the porn.
(18:20):
So it's not just the porn, butit's the sexual climax that
attaches to what you're lookingat and makes you want to desire
whatever it is you've beenlooking at.
Yep.
And also the problem with thisand marriage, you have a spouse
that is looking at pornmasturbating, and now he's wants
to have intimacy with his wife.
(18:43):
It could be called, sexualintimacy with his wife.
But it's hard because the imagesthat he has in his head are not
of his wife and then what he hasbeen practicing with porn and
masturbation has been a selfishact.
So now he comes before his wifeand it's not one of a person
(19:05):
coming to give, but it's theperson coming to take.
Wow.
Because that has been his go-toI come to take.
I come to take from the videosor whatever I'm watching.
To now I want to take from youand the woman, of course, a lot
of women feel used.
There is no, there is nointimacy there, there's just a
(19:25):
coming to take.
And, it is, it's very hard.
A woman is never given the timeto have a sexual experience with
her husband.
That it is a giving experience.
It's more of a taking.
That's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
So how does pornography leadinto human trafficking?
(19:48):
Well, I think it's a gateway toit.
It really is because whathappens is the more that you are
looking at porn and focusing andmeditating on that sooner or
later, you want a real person onthat.
Now that might be 20 years.
It might be 30 years.
But, I would say every guy we'vetalked to that have been dealing
(20:11):
with massage parlors or anythinglike that, there is a root
somewhere back there of imagesand thoughts.
And sometimes it's been a traumathat's happened to'em and we've
talked to a number of guys thattheir dads encouraged them to go
to a prostitute when they'rereally young.
Mm.
Right.
So just a, that's an abusivething, but all those things
create the impetus for the guyto desire the variety and other
(20:35):
women and things like that.
And so they will create thedemand for this.
Then the human traffickers is abusiness, right?
They are fulfilling a demand.
But while the demand is there,there will continue to be a
business of human trafficking inpeople like that.
Mm-hmm it's a billion dollarbusiness.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
(20:55):
Gigantic.
Mm-hmm.
And what part of the world wouldyou say is the worst?
Uh, the U.S.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Within the U.S.
I've read that the three bigcities in the U.S.
are Las Vegas, Atlanta andOrlando.
Orlando?
Where everyone comes tovacation.
Right.
But you think about that astourist, right.
(21:16):
People get away from home,there's a level of secrecy, and
they want to do what they wantto do.
Yeah.
Wow.
So how do we protect our kidsand our family?
Well, I think with our childrenit's interesting.
We've thought a lot, we'vetalked to our older children
about what we did growing upwith them.
What worked well, what didn'twork well, and we've come to a
(21:38):
couple of conclusions that therehas to be an openness from
parents to talk about all thisstuff.
And not just from one parent orthe other.
So, Camille, I think the typicalthing is guys would talk to the
sons and moms would talk to thedaughters.
Right.
That's the typical thing thatstarts happening.
(21:58):
But implicit in that setup isthat this is kind of a secret
thing to talk about.
So son, this is dad, this is boystuff.
We're gonna talk about this, andmom didn't need to know and the
same way with the girls.
So we've turned that around.
We talk very openly to our kidsabout this both of us on both
sides.
Don't you think Priscilla,right, right.
And usually at the same time, Imean, it's a very normal
(22:21):
conversation for us to haveabout porn, about masturbation,
about trafficking.
I mean, all this stuff thatstarts happening.
Social media.
Social media.
Yeah.
But many times a parent does notwant to talk about this because
they have their own level ofshame and, baggage in their
life, sexual baggage that theydon't want to come out in the
(22:42):
open and they're afraid to talkto their kids about it, but we
encourage parents to talk about.
Because when they are open, itwill encourage their kids to be
open.
Because like you said, thisstuff is happening really,
really, really young.
Yeah.
And so there has to be thatlevel of openness and
transparency in the home foreverybody to be honest and talk
(23:03):
about it.
Yeah.
We really need to do that.
The things that come across yourphone, I have two phones, one
for work and personal, and it'samazing to me, the texts that I
get.
I think being proactive andtalking about these things will
help everybody, not even open itup and look at it, you know, out
of curiosity.
(23:23):
Yeah.
So what would you say to singlepeople who are dating?
How would they go about havingthis conversation?
Because they might not have itin marriage counseling if
they're, pre-marriagecounseling, if they even go to
that before they get married.
Well, I think one thing we'vealways told our kids as they've
gone up is you need to ask yourfuture spouse about what their
(23:44):
relationship has been with porn.
Yeah.
You know, the other day we weretalking to our girls about some
of the questions that need to beasked today.
Right.
The questions that we asked inthe past are different than the
questions that need to be askedtoday.
Correct.
Especially with all this genderstuff going on.
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean, it's kind of like, Hey,so did you ever dress as a girl?
(24:08):
If you're talking to yourboyfriend, I mean, these are
things that, Hey, did you ever,you know, encounter this in your
life?
Things that we would not everthink about asking.
Right.
And they need to be willing toshare their own.
Right.
Right.
Just right out there.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
So, I think asking questions, offuture people that we're
(24:30):
interested in, but also beinghonest about where you have
come.
Mm-hmm.
Do you guys do marriagecounseling or do you just help
people that are already married?
Well, it's interesting.
We've had requests from peoplethat are engaged and we are
gonna put together somethingeventually that covers that
(24:50):
piece, but it's a lot of thesame topics.
Really.
We work our way through.
In Savage Marriage, we talkabout the wounds of your past.
And how the, how your trauma andyour wounds of your past are
making decisions for you todayand without your permission.
And then we talk about the liesthat you've believed what's
happened in your, the soil thatyou've been planting in.
And what are the lies thatyou've believed and how does
(25:11):
that affect you today?
So we talk about those topicswith the married couples, but
those topics also need to bedealt with the engaged couple.
I'd say today, we're workingprimarily with married couples.
But it's interesting Priscilla,so I'd say especially the
couples that have been married30 years, 40 years, they say,
boy, I wish we would've knownthis before we got married.
Right.
(25:31):
That's right.
So yeah.
And we say that too, by the way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we wish he knew all thisstuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now how many couples do you see,on their second marriage, maybe
even their third marriage comingto you, dealing with this?
A lot it is interesting.
We went back the other day andwe were looking at several years
(25:52):
worth of history on couples.
And we have couples sometimesleave a group.
Like we get into it one, two orthree sessions, and it's really
tough stuff.
Right.
We're asking you hard questionsabout your past.
And so if you've been marriedtwo or three times, there is
some level of trauma in yourpast.
And when we say, and they'retrying to forget it as much as
(26:12):
they can, right?
Yeah.
And we're saying, no, we'regonna go back and look at this
because we want to understandhow it's gonna affect, how it's
affecting your marriage today.
And at some point, the couplesthat have left, I'd say many of
them were on a second and thirdmarriage, right Priscilla?
Correct.
But they did not want to go backand look at the past they've
tried their entire life toforget it.
And here we are, Phil andPriscilla wanting to talk my
(26:35):
abuse as a kid and I just don'twant to talk about that.
That's not a door I want toopen.
Right.
Yeah.
And so, I think that's whathappens, there's just more stuff
there and people are afraid toopen it.
So is there anything else that'son your heart that you want to
make sure that we talk abouttoday that I haven't asked you?
Well, I'd say one thing is wealways tell couples, there's no
(26:58):
silver bullet in this, right.
But if there was a silverbullet, this is what it would
be.
And this was, I would sayCamille was the big thing that
changed our relationship is wehad, I would say level of
spiritual and maybe religiousinvolvement and activity with
God individually, but we reallyhad no spiritual intimacy
(27:18):
together.
What God showed us is that if wewanted to be emotionally and
sexually intimate, we had tostart with spiritual intimacy.
And so we had to turn the wholerelationship completely back
around and start over again.
And that became the key becausethat gave us the fuel to develop
(27:40):
the emotional intimacy which ledto the expression and the sexual
intimacy.
That's right.
It's interesting how often, andour relationship started like
this too, which it started withthe emotional right.
34 years ago.
And I think most datingrelationships are like this,
that you start with theemotional.
And then you go to the physicaland then you get married.
(28:02):
Let's just say, you're abeliever and you go shoot.
Now we have to bring God intothis.
Yeah.
You know, we've done these twothings and we kind of let him on
the sideline and I will saythat's what happened with us
too.
Philip would do the devotionsevery now and there and, it was
kind of like.
Yeah.
Okay, great.
You know, but our life, ourdating life was not exactly,
(28:25):
what's that book that, that guy,Kiss Dating Goodbye or whatever?
Something like that, a lot ofChristians read that, don't do
anything before you're marriedanyway, ours wasn't like that
anyway.
I never heard of that book.
Oh, you haven't?
No.
So we never brought in thespiritual side of having
intimacy with God in with eachother in the spiritual realm.
(28:49):
Now we had religious activity.
We had activities.
We were big at church activity.
Yeah.
But we're not talking about theactivity that you do together.
That's all good.
But it's the conversations thatyou're talking about?
What is it that God is showingme about me?
What is he telling me?
What is he revealing to me in mylife and sharing that with Phil
(29:12):
and it's not, big, drawn outconversations.
It's just little things here andthere, but it's something that
we do on a daily basis as share.
What is it that God is showingme today?
Yeah.
And I was just thinking what ifthere's a single person
listening to this?
And they want to clean up theiract male or female and realize
(29:33):
this is now an issue afterhearing this podcast.
What would you recommend forthem to do?
So if somebody is single andthey're wrestling with sexual
immorality or trauma or whateverit is from their past, we would
recommend that they go to the,Whatever Tt Takes Ministries
conferences, and it'sWITministries.com.
(29:54):
And there's a Four Days ToFreedom for guys.
There's a Four Days to Hope forladies and they have a couples
intensive as well, and Priscillaand I coach at some of these
conferences and it's had a bigimpact on our life.
And I think that'd be a greatplace for people to start.
Thank you.
That's wonderful advice.
That's all the time we havetoday and we could talk about
(30:17):
the subject forever.
Yes, we could.
I'm so grateful for everythingwe've learned today, and I'm so
thankful to know you and I'mhonored that you would share
your story with all of us,because knowledge is power,
right?
Well, we're happy to do that andwe appreciate you bringing us
on.
Yes, thank you.
(30:37):
Oh, you're welcome.
So if anyone's looking forhealing or simply wants to gain
more spiritual, emotional, andsexual vibrancy in their
marriage, how can people reachout to you?
Or where can they buy your book?
Yeah, so we're on the internetat SavageMarriageMinistries.com.
And they can find our books onAmazon, just search under Savage
(30:59):
Marriage, Fretwell.
It will pop up both the workbookand the regular book.
And we also have a podcast onour website, on iTunes or
Spotify.
Just again, searching underSavage Marriage, Phil and
Priscilla, and it'll pop up.
Okay, wonderful.
Our time is up, but thanks forbeing here, go buy their book
and follow them for moreinformation on a
(31:21):
SavageMarriageMinistries.com.
In John 16:13, it says the Lordwill lead you into all truth.
If you would like to find moreHeavenly Hookups podcasts,
please follow us on Instagram atHeavenlyHookup_S or
HeavenlyHookups.com orCamilleBattaglia.com.
Thank you so much.
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