April 11, 2023 • 51 mins
Hear from this Singing Hippie, Gail McFarland and about her colorful life during The Jesus Movement in Hollywood. How she lost her Rock Star Pastoral status because of her husband admitting to a public affair with one of the 600 singles they ministered to under Dr. Jack Hayford, (Gail's Spiritual Father).
After life came crashing down, how did she find hope as a single mama of an infant and deal with the death of her 2nd husband after a 16 year marriage?
Gail calls herself a Happy Failure. Many will call this humble woman a spiritual mother to many.
Connect with Gail McFarland at gail.mcfarland@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and thank you for joiningus on Heavenly Hookups.
I'm here with Gail McFarland, myguest, and I'm just so excited
about the wealth of informationthat this lady has lived in her
lifetime.
She has worked under Dr.
Jack Hayford.
She had a young adults groupthat she ministered to, for
about 600 people.
This beautiful woman is a wealthof information and I can't wait
(00:23):
for you all to hear from herabout all the troubles and the
triumphs that she encountered.
Her husband had a public affairin Dr.
Jack Hayford's ministry, thenshe had to raise her daughter by
herself.
She was blessed with a secondmarriage for 16 years.
I'm excited that, Gail, thatyou're here and that you can
(00:44):
tell us all about, your life andyour experiences and what you
think would be most helpful.
Thank you, Camille, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be able toshare these stories.
We go through really hardthings, and I've had the Lord
say at times, I know this ishard.
(01:07):
There was no escape hatch.
It was just really hard.
But the victory beyond it, theability to overcome and not just
survive, but thrive.
And I think that's part of mystory.
So I, I married a young man whowas preparing for ministry and
(01:29):
we were high school youthpastors at the Church on the
Way, which is Dr.
Jack Hayford, who recentlypassed away.
And he was my spiritual fatherand my first husband and I were
kind of like the golden couple.
Even great things planned forthis wonderfully anointed couple
(01:52):
and we'd lead worship with ourguitars and blah, blah.
I really enjoyed the celebrityof being on pastoral staff later
on, we lived in Israel for fouryears and survived a war, but
that's another story.
Oh my.
Probably a book.
We came back to pastor, thesingles department, which was
about 600 people.
(02:13):
That's where, now listen, we'reclose to Hollywood there.
This is Tinsel Town out there inLos Angeles.
And so they treat pastors likecelebrities.
And I gotta tell you, I reallyenjoyed that.
Yeah, I bet.
One of the things I calledmyself is a recovering pharisee.
(02:35):
I know.
I love that.
I'm actually glad that thingshappened to me to completely
dismantle my paradigm.
My paradigm of life was if I doeverything right, everything
turns out okay.
And what do you know it didn't.
And my paradigm came crashingdown around my ears when my
(02:59):
husband had an affair with oneof the single women.
She eventually repented, but hedidn't.
And he just, went further andfurther away divorced me.
And here my life was in shamblesand it was very public.
Because there were about 10 to15,000 people at the church at
(03:20):
that time.
So everybody knew.
Wow.
What had happened.
And one day I'm gonna share thisbecause I think it's one of the
most powerful things that couldhave happened to me.
He left when she was 11 monthsold and I'd put her down for a
nap and I just slumped to thefloor in the living room.
(03:42):
And I thought to my, I was justutterly depressed.
I'm sure.
And, I imagined myself beforethe Lord at the great judgment
or whatever, and said, oh Jesus,I'm so sorry I never amounted to
anything.
But Mark destroyed my life.
(04:03):
I expected sympathy.
Yeah.
I didn't get it.
The Lord looked at me.
This is Jesus.
It was like I saw his eyes, helooked at me with great
intensity.
And said, nothing can destroyyour life unless you let it.
(04:23):
Wow.
That's powerful.
And I realized in that moment, Ihad some very serious decisions
to make.
I could still fulfill mydestiny.
Nothing can stop.
Now, obviously I've gottasurvive.
I'm gonna have to move cause wewere in a pastoral house.
There all kinds of convolutionsto life.
(04:43):
I gotta get a job.
And I haven't worked in a fewyears, but it was just
extraordinary because I expectedhim to go, I know honey.
That's okay.
Yeah.
And he didn't, he was like, comeon, give me a little sympathy
here.
But working through it Ieventually thrived.
(05:06):
That was probably the biggestthing to set me on a path for my
future of thriving.
But there was another one aboutthree years later and I was
dealing with stuff.
I was forgiving him.
And forgiveness, let me justsay, forgiveness is a process.
Yeah.
And if anybody's listening andyou've been through horrible
(05:28):
trauma, you have to do it andkeep doing it.
And I said, Lord, I forgive himin your name, but please work
that into my heart.
And he did.
And I went through lots ofhealing.
The other thing is, therapy'sgreat, but I couldn't afford it.
And I thought, I can't imaginethe Lord going, oh gee, kid, I
(05:50):
wish I could help you, but youdon't have the money.
It's okay, it's you and me.
Jesus.
Yeah.
You be my therapist.
You take me through this.
So about three or four yearslater, I'm working, my daughter
is in childcare, which broke myheart.
I had to put her in full-timedaycare at 18 months.
(06:10):
And one morning in my quiet timewith the Lord, he said, do you
want him to know what he did?
And I thought, now that's atrick question.
He knows what he did.
Yeah.
And he did it anyway.
He even told me that.
And I went, I gotta think aboutthis.
What are we talking about here?
(06:31):
So I thought through all of theimplications, all of the people
that were hurt, our owndestinies changed the
ramifications for so many livesand the ramifications of my life
and my daughter's life.
And I thought, Lord, if youreally showed him everything, I
(06:55):
don't think he could take it.
He might commit suicide.
I'm not sure he could handleknowing.
And then I thought, you knowwhat?
You've never told me everythingI've ever done.
And I suddenly realized that notonly did Jesus die, because we
couldn't bear the penalty forour sin, we can't even bear the
(07:19):
weight of the knowledge of it.
And in that moment I said, no,Lord, I don't want him to know
what he did, all of what he did.
And I release him from everknowing.
And that right there was myrelease.
(07:40):
Wow.
I don't know what it did forhim, but that was my release.
I released him from my judgmentof him.
I released him from ever knowingall of the ramifications of his
great sin and the betrayal.
And it mean it's huge whenyou've been betrayed.
(08:01):
And especially at a time in mylife when I needed somebody more
than I'd ever needed anybody, Ihad a tiny baby.
I was still brain dead.
You know the baby brain?
Just it was horrible.
Yeah.
And yet what that release of himand that full forgiveness, I was
(08:23):
able later to look at himeyeball and to eyeball and say,
I love you.
And he got tears in his eyes.
He said, I know I love you too.
Huh?
He eventually asked myforgiveness probably about, 12
to 15 years later.
(08:44):
He said, I'm so sorry for what Iput you through.
Will you forgive me?
But I didn't require it.
And when you go throughsomething like that, you can't
expect it.
And it's the one thing thatpeople who have been victimized
in any way, their deepest desireis that the perpetrator would
(09:05):
really know what they did.
So that's just, that has been avery powerful lesson in my life.
And I honestly believe that iswhat enabled me to thrive.
I was then involved in singlesagain and public speaking that
sort of thing.
And then I met my secondhusband, and we were married for
(09:28):
16 years, and he died suddenly.
You're like, Lord.
I'm sorry.
It's not funny, but I'mchuckling because of the joy of
victory.
Yeah.
The joy of overcoming divorceand death.
And when we finally pulled theplug on him, it's a longer
story, but one of the gals saidaren't you angry?
(09:52):
Why aren't you angry?
And I said I really do trustthat my heavenly father loves
me.
And in that moment I thought, Ireally do.
I never went through the stagesof anger that therapists will
tell you need to go through.
Yeah.
And one of them is anger,skipped it.
(10:14):
Never went through that stage.
You go through, oh my God, Ican't believe this.
It's a denial for a minute.
But the anger stage I never wentthrough because I had been
through so much.
I had learned to trust thefather's love for me.
And now it's many years.
Hence I'm retired.
(10:36):
And starting to write down someof these stories as a legacy for
my daughter and my grandchildrenand whoever else comes along in
the lineage.
That the stories are my legacy.
Yeah, I think that's wonderfulbecause what you just described
is how you experienced totalfreedom in a very difficult
(10:59):
situation.
Until you've been to the otherside of forgiveness.
You don't understand what apowerful tool it is to take away
from the enemy that you don'tkeep yourself trapped in
unforgiveness and that youactually trust and let go.
You experienced total freedom.
Yep.
Yeah.
So that's a huge release.
(11:20):
And you said a very significantthing.
You take the power that theenemy has, you take it away from
him.
And one of the things aboutforgiveness that I did realize
is that if you don't forgive.
Which you have a perfect rightnot to, you have a perfect right
(11:40):
to be bitter and angry, butyou'll be an old bitter hag
nobody wants to be around.
That's your alternative.
It's hard work to forgive.
It's hard work to release.
But doing that work isabsolutely worth it, because the
alternative is hell.
In quotes, the alternative isthe hellish existence of
(12:04):
bitterness and anger and a lifethat is diminished.
Life is greatly diminished bythe depression of it, the
sadness.
And it's interesting, the Lordtold me one time that one of his
favorite memories of me.
(12:25):
He, Re-showed me the picturethat after my husband had left
me and I was still in thepastoral house, it was very
fresh.
But I learned the power of notjust forgiveness, but gratitude
and worship and I picked up mybaby daughter, held her in my
(12:47):
arms, put on some worship music,and danced around the living
room singing worship songs withtears streaming down my face.
Wow.
Grief and relief in the samemoment.
And the Lord told me quite sometime later, that's one of his
(13:08):
most, I'm choking up.
Yeah.
That's one of his most preciousmemories of me.
Worshiping through my tears.
Wow.
Yeah.
And I did it again when mysecond husband died.
But I discovered that gratitudehelps maintain your emotional
(13:29):
equilibrium.
This is the natural part of youthat is sad or depressed or
doesn't know what the future is,and you're afraid and all the
natural things that happen inyour soul.
But when you practice gratitudeto the Lord, it lifts you.
Yeah.
(13:49):
It's, again, it's part of thework of getting healed.
But I went to church one day andone of the pastors said, Hi
Gail, how are you?
And I went, I'm okay.
That's a, I'm really not, but Iam telling you I am.
Yeah.
Because it's the right thing tosay.
Yeah.
And I'm telling you, that was adownward spiral and I went, oh
(14:13):
shoot, I can't do that again.
I need to maintain that worshipand the gratitude and when I ran
out of things to be gratefulfor, I went into the word and I
go, Lord, thank you.
You said, you would never leaveme or forsake me.
Thank you that I'm seated withyou in heavenly places.
(14:34):
And I would just use the Bibleto find things to be thankful
for and I think of David in somany of his psalms.
You see his humanity.
He gets angry about how evilprospers, and he gets depressed
and my soul is downcast.
But he always, there was alwaysa but in his songs.
(14:58):
But I have trust, his Psalm 13,look up Psalm 13.
He's going be merciful lest Isleep, the sleep of death.
He's being very dramatic.
A lot of verses, right?
And he's very depressed.
Yeah.
And down.
And then suddenly there's this,but I have trusted in your
loving kindness, I will singunto the Lord for he has dealt
(15:24):
bountifully with me.
That's one of the most powerfulpsalms because it's a model for
feel the feelings.
Go ahead, feel'em all.
Yeah.
But put the but in there and go,but God, I'm going to trust you
with my life.
With my daughter, with ourwellbeing.
(15:46):
All that I am afraid of, andit's, I think it's really
important.
I've shared some deeplyspiritual things, but it's also
important to allow the humanity.
As a therapist friend of minesays, admit, feel and release.
(16:09):
So you admit it?
I'm miserable.
This sucks.
Yeah.
I don't like it.
You admit it and you allowyourself to feel those feelings
to a point.
But like I said about thedownward spiral of self-pity,
oh, I'm okay.
Please pray for me.
(16:31):
The self-pity is the worst.
Yeah.
And so gratitude and forgivenessand worship help maintain your
emotional equilibrium until thescenery changes.
Yeah.
And unless scenery eventuallychanges.
Yeah, that's so good what youjust said.
(16:51):
Basically you said, if you don'tforgive, you don't forget.
Oh yeah.
It steals your entire life fromyou.
And like you said, no one'sgonna wanna be around you.
Your kids aren't gonna be aroundyou.
It's because you're stuck.
Yeah.
The worship helps you getunstuck.
Going to the Bible, speaking,what's in the word, helps you
(17:12):
get unstuck.
And I know that, every day, Iwork on that, there's always
something that makes me almoststumble or stumble.
And then I go to the word and Itry to write a list that of
things I'm grateful for and itdoes pull me back to the other
side.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It actually has an effect thatis, as I said, maintaining your
(17:38):
emotional equilibrium.
I could tell when I was dippingbelow the waves, as it were.
Yeah.
And the waves crash.
When you go through somethingtraumatic, it's wave after wave.
And you wonder when it's gonnaend.
And it feels very dark and theword is very powerful to keep
you afloat.
(17:59):
But choosing to trust, when yougo through something, you have a
lot of choices that you have tomake.
And choosing to trust.
I will put my trust in the Lord.
Trust is not a feeling, neitheris forgiveness.
Forgiveness is a decision thatyou have the power to forgive
(18:23):
another person.
And trusting is a decision.
And I liken it to stepping fromone room into another where you
simply decide to go into thenext room.
I'm deciding, Lord, I will putmy trust in you.
I may not feel it, but it isn'tabout feelings.
(18:44):
It's about your choosing totrust his goodness.
And that's what the enemy lovesto throw in your face.
If God is good, why?
And I had a coworker once, anbeliever who said to me one day,
and it was very tender, but hesaid, Gail, how can you believe
(19:08):
that God is good?
Look at all you've been through.
And I said, yes.
Take a good long look at allI've been through.
If I say God is good, he's good.
And the guy just looked at mewith wide eyes and had no
response whatsoever becausegoing through and thriving,
(19:35):
overcoming is so powerful.
And then your light shines forthin a deeper way.
It makes you more authentic togo through all this hard stuff.
It really does.
And I didn't wanna go throughany of it.
I wanted everything to be justperfect.
So I wouldn't have to suffer.
Yeah.
(19:55):
It's like the scripture thatsays that I may know Christ and
the power of his resurrectionand the fellowship of his
sufferings, whatever that is, Idon't wanna know that.
We just, we kind of skip overthe fellowship of his
sufferings.
Yeah.
But when you allow that to shapeyou, it transforms you.
(20:18):
And you sense the oneness withChrist.
That doesn't come any other way,but through suffering, we are
one with Christ.
We all know that.
Yes, you are one with Lord hecomes to live in us.
But going through suffering isreally a fellowship with the
Lord.
(20:38):
And it's amazing.
You're making me think aboutlast Sunday at church what
pastor Jason said about thepassion.
People don't realize the passionmeans suffering.
Isn't that right?
Yes.
Isn't that what he said?
Yes.
The word passion.
That's why the movie Mel Gibsonmade the Passion of the Christ.
Yeah, I know.
I got it at that moment.
(21:00):
Yeah.
And it's interesting that todaywe're talking about this and
today is Good Friday.
I know.
I thought the same thing.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
It's a day when we don't have tomourn as those who have no hope.
He died and we honor him.
But the Bible says we died withhim.
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I'm not sure I fully understandthat yet.
I've still got a lot to learn.
Yeah, me too.
But that's the fun ofovercoming.
Yeah.
Because it's here I am in thisseason of my life with my gray
hair and I'm going, oh, I haveso much to learn.
Isn't this exciting?
(21:42):
And every now and then, now youneed to know I am still
believing for the restoration ofmy daughter.
And I live with her and myson-in-law and my granddaughter,
and I see the hurt.
But she knows my story and shehas said I know I have to
forgive my father.
And I'll tell you a miracle thathappened because she was so mad
(22:04):
at him.
She wanted him to, this is threeyears ago, she said, I hope he
dies of miserable death.
And I said, nothing, becausethere's nothing you can say in
that moment, like oh, don't saythat, that, it's don't do that.
It's useless.
Over the last few years, I'vewatched the Lord work in her
heart, and she and I went up toNew York just before Christmas
(22:26):
and met with him, and shereconciled with her natural
father.
Wow.
And it was a miracle that shewent from hating him and wanting
him to die a horrible death.
And I don't know how it happenedexcept that, holy Spirit,
there's a wonderful verse.
(22:47):
If anybody's listening and youhave children and they're,
they've ridden off the rails,and you think, oh God, can you
ever bring them back to faith?
There's a wonderful verse thatsays, A bruised reed, he will
not break and a dimly burningwick or fire, he will not put
out.
So I looked at my daughterthrough the years, she's a
(23:08):
believer, but got real secularand new age and whatnot and I
just thought, no, it's a dimlyburning wick, and he won't snuff
it out, he'll blow on it, andrevive her.
Every now and then, the Lordlets me see a bit of revival in
her.
But he also said, let the taresgrow with the wheat because
(23:31):
we're parents and we want sobadly for our children to know
the Lord and to prosper and torecover from all the trauma
they've been through.
It's easy to get in the way, andthe Lord told me, let the tares
grow with the wheat.
I know where the tares are, Iknow what to do about them you
don't.
And it's you let me take care ofthis.
(23:52):
I've got her, I'm in charge andmy job is to rest and trust.
Yeah.
Oh, interesting.
There we go.
Back to trusting again.
At every turn that seemsdifficult.
He's saying kinda like Aladdin.
Do you trust me?
That wonderful scene where hewants her to get on the carpet?
(24:13):
Do you trust me?
Yeah.
And she can see in his eyes, oh,she sees that, that familiar
look.
And I feel like that's Jesus alot of times.
Do you trust me when the goinggets hard?
I go, yes, Lord, I'm scared, butI trust you.
That's a good image.
Oh, the films are full ofwonderful stuff.
(24:34):
Yeah, they are.
It's interesting that she feltthat way about her dad because
she was so little when this allhappened.
Did she see him throughout herchildhood?
He would show up at awardceremonies.
Oh.
So of course she got straightA's he really wasn't that
involved and there were justother things that happened once
(24:56):
she got older.
That she collected some hurts ofher own from him.
And so it's been an absolutemiracle to see her forgive him,
but she knew my testimony andthis is the power of testimony
and why, I wanna write it downand leave it for posterity or
whoever, this is fun.
I get to say it online.
(25:18):
Because it's very powerful torealize that God really is at
work in us to bring us to newplaces all the time.
And the power of forgiveness.
The power of worship.
And I'm not just talking aboutsinging songs.
I'm talking about in your quiettime, you could have tears
streaming down your face and yougo, God, I'm gonna trust you.
(25:41):
You are my God.
And there is no other, that'sworship.
And it, it doesn't have to bewhat we always think of it as,
go to church and sing the songs.
It's no, it's your heart.
It's having a heart of worship,a heart of gratitude.
And there are yet victories Ihope for, but I have seen one
that was a hope for years and itfinally came to pass.
(26:04):
And she's 37 so it just came topass in this last year.
That's great.
Yeah.
Isn't that amazing.
But it's also, I actuallystopped praying.
It's probably good too.
It is.
Because the Lord said, listen,you have asked, yes, I have
heard you.
I have heard you.
(26:25):
I'm doing this.
I've got her several times.
He would say, let the tares growwith the wheat.
All the different things he hassaid to me.
Yeah.
It's will you please relax?
You don't have to fight and prayand get all energized about,
there are times when you do,I've actually had a moment where
(26:46):
I go, okay, that's it.
And I bind something, we canbind, we can lose.
He's given us the power and Isee the power of it, but for the
most part, what he has called meto do is rest and trust.
And you be you.
Yeah.
It's kinda like, come on Gail,you go do what I'm calling you
to do.
Don't worry about her.
(27:07):
I've got her, I've got him, I'vegot whoever, don't you worry
about them, you follow me?
And so it's okay, pursue theLord and what he's calling me to
do.
And I still pray occasionally,it's that kind of desperate
prayer that he said, no, youdon't need to do that.
(27:28):
Yeah.
Boy, have I learned that lately,the last couple weeks too.
Really?
Yeah.
Just to let it go and surrenderand that God loves your children
no matter where they are andwhat they're doing.
Yes, he holds the tether.
And we would want to hold thetether a little closer.
And he goes, no, don't worry.
I know it looks like it's reallyfar away, but I've got it.
(27:51):
Yeah.
He's still got the tetherbecause of his love I had to
realize that the Lord loves mydaughter more than I do.
And that was after I discoveredthat she had been exposed to SRA
Satanic Ritual abuse.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
As a very young child.
(28:11):
Oh my gosh.
And yes.
Oh, talk about adding insult toinjury.
You could go, really, God?
put her in childcare and this iswhat happens.
And anyway, believing that nomatter what she was programmed
with or whatever they did, Ihave had to forgive them.
And you go, wait a second.
Wait a second.
That's pure evil.
(28:33):
Yes it is.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
That's what we would call pureevil.
We label it that and it's canyou believe Romans 8:28?
It's either true, all the waytrue or it's not.
That God causes all things towork together for good and it to
(28:55):
those who love God and arecalled according to his purpose.
There's the whole verse.
And one of my friends once said,God is able to play 3D chess to
the nth power.
If you think about a 3D chessboard, first of all, chess is an
intellectual game.
Requires great strategy.
And do it 3D.
And then think to the nth power,how he moves the pieces of the
(29:18):
chess board so that it does themost good for the most people.
And you go, how do you do that?
I think his answer is, I'm Godand you're not.
It's yes, I have a bigger brainhere and I can do this.
And he can and he will.
So that when we hit these reallyhard times he's asking, do you
(29:39):
trust me?
And do you trust that I am ableand willing to work at all for
good, especially when it looksawful and unfixable.
Wow.
So how old was she when youfigured out she was exposed to
SRA?
She was five when she disclosed.
(30:00):
Oh my gosh.
So she was around it for severalyears then?
For probably age two we startedseeing strange symptoms, but
finally yeah, it was actually,maybe she was four, but close to
five.
And it's a longer story.
We still haven't figuredeverything out.
But I remember Erin asking meone time, do you think the Lord
(30:24):
could heal me without meremembering everything?
And I said, oh, yes.
Oh, absolutely.
He's 100% committed to yourtotal freedom and release and
it's Holy Spirit.
He's so powerful and he knowseverything.
I still don't know all thedetails of what happened to my
daughter, but he knows, and Itrust him with what he knows.
(30:49):
I just, I was gonna burst intotears for a second.
You just said, Yes, God can healyou without you remembering all
of those details.
I think I know and love someonevery dearly who is traumatized
by something in the past, andit's not nearly as bad as what
you're describing, but they justdon't wanna go through the
(31:10):
wounds or let it go to get thehealing.
I just think that is a beautifulthing you just said that God and
the Holy Spirit can take it fromyou.
Jesus can take it from you ifyou let him, and you won't have
to remember it.
You won't have to remember thepain and the hurts and the
wounds.
I have a couple of friends whoare going through healing from
(31:30):
SRA and one gal was deeply intoit as a child and greatly
traumatized by it.
But the Lord has been gentlewith her.
He will only let you know whatyou're ready to know.
Again, it's about trusting God'sheart of love, the whole thing
(31:51):
that the enemy calls intoquestion is God good and does he
love you?
Does he love somebody else morethan you?
No.
He absolutely loves every personthat he made, that he put his
image in, that we are made inthe image of God.
It's like you have the image inyou and he loves who he made.
(32:13):
I don't care what mess you'vemade of you, he loves you.
Mess and all.
I think that we've just gottenaway from God not being afraid
of messiness.
Yeah.
Where we go you've gotta do thisand you've gotta do that.
And Christianity has created somany boxes, and we've gotten
(32:33):
away, many churches have gottenaway from the core of the gospel
is that God made you and heloves you, and he knows exactly
what you've done with your lifeand how you've messed it up.
And he goes I don't care.
I love you.
Would you trust me to heal you?
And deliver, you set you free.
(32:53):
I still have plans for you.
And people get discouragedthinking, oh, God can't love me
anymore.
Yeah.
I've done way too much shame.
The shame, the shame.
The shame.
Yeah.
And that's a lie.
That's a lie of the enemy.
Oh, now you've blown it.
Now you've committed theunpardonable sin.
Nope.
Nope.
(33:14):
He isn't afraid to get his handsdirty.
I love that.
Yes, that's right.
Jeremiah 29:11.
Yes, exactly.
For I know the plans I have foryou says the Lord for you to
prosper and succeed.
Yeah.
And you're right.
There's nothing he can't fixcause that's the lie.
The enemy wants us to stay inthat trap that, oh, you've done
(33:35):
it now you've blown it.
Yep.
It's not fixable.
And I think it's a really goodquestion to ask ourselves, what
are the lies I'm believe in?
And I know it's hard when you'refeeling all the hard feelings.
It's hard to suddenly flip aswitch and get spiritual about
it, if you can do it, it's agood thing where you can go
(33:57):
whoa.
Am I believing a lie?
What am I thinking right now?
What am I believing?
I believe there's no hope.
That's a lie.
That's always a lie.
100% of the time.
But there were lies I believedabout myself.
Like I always thought I wasn'tcreative, and that's a long
story, but the Lord healed me ofthat.
(34:19):
And I went, oh my gosh, I'mcreative.
All my life, I thought I wasn't.
And so that was a lie aboutmyself that I believed when in
fact, It's a part of who hecreated me to be.
I always thought of myself as abit of a hobbit, let everybody
else have the adventures.
I just want tea at four and stayhome and read books about
(34:41):
adventures.
But I had to realize that wasanother lie.
I'm extremely adventurous.
It's an important question toask, am I believing a lie?
Because Holy Spirit will tellyou.
I just love it.
Jesus said, the Holy Spirit willlead you into all truth.
(35:04):
It's holy Spirit, what do I needto know?
Please tell me if there's a lieI'm believing.
Or maybe it's not even a lie,but I just love, I've learned to
love the Lord's judgment.
And it's very gentle.
Sometimes Holy Spirit will go,you're fussing.
(35:26):
Oh yeah, I'm fussing and that'sit.
All I have to do is hear.
That's kinda funny.
Stop fussing.
And because I've got my knickersin a knot about something, and
I'm upset.
Yeah.
And I hear this still smallvoice.
You're fussing.
And I shift.
So he can do that with anything.
(35:48):
He could suddenly say, that'snot the truth.
That's a lie.
It's so funny saying that,because I posted several times
on my Heavenhookup_s Instagrampage about the truth.
And then the last one was dailyquestion, are you believing a
lie?
And I showed it to my youngestson and he's mom, no one's
(36:10):
gonna, no one wants to knowthey're believing a lie.
No one, thinks they believe alie.
That's the problem.
And I'm like, it's true.
We don't we think everything weare saying is right and
everybody else absolutely iswrong.
Yes.
But the thing is, when you'reliving a lie, you don't know it
unless you do ask the HolySpirit.
It's funny.
(36:30):
And that's the hope.
Oh my gosh.
That's the hope.
I love Holy Spirit.
Because you can ask anything youwant.
Yeah.
I think a lot of myconversations with the Lord.
I ask him lots of questions.
How about this?
Why that?
It, sometimes I don't getanswers, but sometimes I do
(36:52):
because we have conversations.
But asking Holy Spirit, pleasereveal truth to me.
For those who don't know theHoly Spirit, what do you mean?
When you hear from the Lord oryou hear from the Holy Spirit,
how are you hearing and whatdoes it sound like?
It's a thought.
I've never heard the audiblevoice of the Lord.
And to be truthful, there aretimes I'll hear something in my
(37:14):
head and I go, I don't know ifthat's you or me.
If that's you're gonna need toconfirm it another way, because
I can't quite tell.
But there have been many times,and usually for me, because I'm
such a logical person, and Ithink in terms of a logical
progression, I can go, oh, yeah,that's my thought.
I just thought through it and Ifigured it out.
(37:37):
But he will broadside me with athought that came out of
nowhere.
And that's when I go, oh.
Oh my gosh.
That's you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I know it.
Usually, it's not a logicalprogression that leads to a
conclusion.
It's just a thought that breaksthrough my, whatever I'm
thinking about.
(37:58):
It could be thinking about whatI'm going to make for dinner.
And it's just and this is whypeople get revelations in the
shower.
Yeah, I know.
Because you're doing somethingelse.
And I think he just knows me ifI'm real quiet.
I sometimes I don't know if I'mhearing from him.
(38:18):
It's something that you learn todiscern his voice and you ask
for that.
You ask Lord, help me hear yourvoice.
There are a lot of good bookswritten about hearing the voice
of God.
But it's not something, and Iknow people have heard the
audible voice, but I would sayin general it's a thought in my
(38:41):
head.
Just unknowing.
So as you develop yourrelationship with the Lord, then
you start to hear more.
And so if we could just go backa little bit, I wanted to know
what was Dr.
Jack Hayford's reaction to theaffair?
How did he take it?
How did he treat you?
Because my husband was his righthand man, he was very hurt.
(39:06):
Oh, wow.
And very angry.
But with me, he was very gentle.
I went to his office one day andwe had tea together and he said,
honey, we're gonna take care ofit.
And they did.
I was taken in by some closefriends, so that, God bless
(39:26):
them, they were willing to takeme and a baby who didn't sleep
through the night.
The church paid them money andgave me spending money and then
they paid for me to get into anapartment so I could, in other
words, they got me back on myfeet and that's wonderful.
(39:47):
They were a huge support.
I was about six months from thetime he left until I was able to
get a job and move into anapartment, and so they supported
me through that whole time.
Now, were you, did you stay withhis ministry and his church?
(40:08):
Oh yeah.
And that was hard.
Oh, yeah.
In fact, that's where I hadmarried my second husband, and
Jack performed that ceremony.
He performed with both of them.
Oh, that's great.
But yeah, I remember, I thinkone of the hardest things to
take when something is public isthe piteous looks of people.
(40:28):
They don't know what to say.
They don't know how to treatyou.
And so I would go to church lateand leave early.
I'd sit in the back and leaveearly until I decided to despise
the shame as it says of Jesus, Ineed to just, I need to walk
with my head up.
But that was probably a fewmonths before I could do that.
(40:51):
I just wanted to come and goquietly and not have to face
people looking at me.
I had close friends that I coulddump on and they made me laugh
and we went out together and, Ibegan to live again, but I still
had a tiny baby.
(41:13):
I was taken care of so it washard.
It was just a really hard time.
But the church was there for meand Jack was there for me
personally, and he always waseven through the death of my
second husband.
He has truly been my spiritualfather.
And I would have to say that themain thing Jack taught was
(41:36):
overcoming.
He taught me to be an overcomer.
He also taught me to beauthentic.
I have a degree in theater, sowhen I came to know the Lord, my
personality was bits and piecesof parts I'd played that made me
look cool.
And Jack was so authentictelling stories about himself,
and I thought you would think ifyou're open and honest, that
(41:59):
people won't respect you.
And the opposite is true, I'vediscovered.
Yeah.
And I learned what I calltransparency.
I learned that from him.
That's interesting that youthought you weren't creative
yet, you were a theater major.
I know.
That doesn't make any sense,Gail.
Oh, and I was a singersongwriter.
I was a singing hippie in theJesus movement in Hollywood.
(42:21):
Sang in a coffee house, wrotesongs.
Yeah, I've had a fairly colorfullife, so is there anything you
wanna share with us now aboutthe hippie movement now that
this Jesus Revolution movie isout?
It's interesting.
I don't know how much time wehave but yeah, the Jesus
Revolution movie, I was verygrateful that they didn't
sugarcoat anything.
(42:44):
It's quite authentic.
Have you seen it?
I haven't seen it.
No.
I haven't seen it yet, but Ican't wait.
It's quite authentic and KelseyGrammer does a great job with
it, but it does appear becauseof the Time Magazine article.
You get the sense from the moviethat Costa Mesa is where the
(43:04):
Jesus movement started and itreally didn't.
It was already going inHollywood when I got there in
1968, after college and the, oneof my dearest friends was the
flashpoint for the Jesusmovement in Hollywood.
She was living on the streets.
(43:27):
She was a hippie, and she gotpregnant.
And showed up at HollywoodPresbyterian Church.
And this is a church that's oneblock away from Hollywood
Boulevard, and it's a bigimportant church.
Celebrities went there, suitsand dresses and hats and
whatnot, and, she went to thatchurch one time and the college
(43:51):
pastor was speaking and shewaited to talk with him
afterwards and burst into tearsand said, I'm pregnant, and I
don't know what to do.
Long story short, he found someelders in the church to take her
in until she had her baby, andthen she gave the baby up for
adoption.
But she said to him, his name isDon Williams.
(44:12):
And she said, Don, you've takenme into your world.
I wanna take you into mine.
And she took him to the streetsand showed him what was really
happening.
And he wrote a book called Tothe Streets.
He said, we gotta do somethingabout this.
These young people are hungryand nobody's giving them bread.
(44:33):
Figurative bread.
You just gave me chills.
So he started a ministry.
Where they went out in thestreets, they started community
houses, so people would've aplace to live.
And you see that in the film.
You see a community house andpeople bringing food.
That was happening in Hollywoodby this time.
(44:54):
By the time I met her it was'68,'69, and I think, Lonnie Frisbee
came in 1970 to Costa Mesa.
But anyway, we had maybe six orseven community houses that
would take people in and theelders and deacons at Hollywood
(45:15):
Press Church would make meals.
They had it all organized.
They would bring meals and theywould eat with the with the
young people in the homes.
And it was a beautiful thingthat the church allowed hippies
with barefoot and or sandals,and t-shirts and jeans sitting
(45:37):
next to suits.
And you see that in the film?
And that's what happened inHollywood, but it was also
happening in Kansas.
It was also, it's almost likethe Asbury Revival where it
starts to break out everywhere.
Yeah.
I think Holy Spirit was doingsomething in that era, but the
public thing happened because ofa journalist who investigated
(46:04):
and then wrote the Time Magazinearticle, and that's what really
put it on the map.
And Calvary Chapel became thestart of Maranatha music, so
it's an important film.
Yeah.
It's an important historicalmovie.
And there's a documentary aboutthe Hollywood Jesus movement
called Salt and Light, it's adocumentary, it's not a movie
(46:26):
like this.
But yeah, that was a fun era.
And then I had, after about fouryears, discovered the Church on
the Way.
The charismatic renewal washappening.
So I became a singer there andworship leader and whatnot.
But now my daughter's themusician.
(46:48):
That's a great story.
Thank you for sharing that.
Before we hop off what advicewould you have for singles or
married people?
I know that's a loaded question.
Sure it is.
You used to minister to a lot ofyoung people.
Is there anything you wanna sayto them?
In today's world, it's sodifferent.
Oh, it is.
Having been single three times.
Of course we all start outsingle, but I never expected to
(47:11):
be single twice.
Now I'm single again.
You hear that gentleman.
I think the most important thingis to keep saying yes to Jesus.
Even if you never get married,let go of that.
I know it's hard.
I have friends.
I have a friend who, she's afabulous woman.
(47:31):
She's in her fifties, never beenmarried, and you go, what the
heck?
It's really important, Ibelieve, to be honest.
In fact, Jack Hayford was askedthe question, what is the most
important thing in order to be,I think the question implied to
be successful, whatever.
(47:52):
And he said, honesty before God.
And I believe that's true.
It's honesty.
But I would add to that and say,just keep saying yes.
There was a young girl when I,we were pastoring the singles
and like I said, we werecelebrities and she had stars in
her eyes.
It's like, how do you get to beyou?
I said, just say yes.
(48:14):
At every turn of the road.
And years later I saw her Iremember thinking, what would
she say now that my whole lifeis at shambles?
And I thought, I would still sayyes.
Years later, I saw her in arestaurant and she looked,
chewed up and spit out.
Life had not been kind to her,as they say.
(48:35):
I got a chance to share with herand I said, Elaine, I still say
the same thing.
Just say yes to Jesus, say yesto what He leads you say yes to
the hardness, this suffering,say yes.
And don't worry about whetheryou're getting married or not.
(48:56):
And I know it's wow, easier saidthan done, but it's really for
eternity and for the sake of thekingdom.
It's about saying yes.
You were able to speak to hernow from this place.
Yeah.
Of your pain that you wentthrough was more powerful than
if your life had been perfect.
(49:18):
Yeah.
She, if you, life was still likeshe saw it years ago.
Yeah.
She would think she messed uphad you not gone through the
suffering.
Yeah.
That you did go through.
Exactly.
And I tried so hard to beperfect, but I have to tell you,
I'm a happy failure.
That's so good.
(49:40):
Yeah.
I know.
That is so good.
I was still, what you just said,I was thinking about this
morning.
Because everybody looks at theend result.
Yeah.
And they want that, but theydon't know that the pain and the
suffering that people go throughwhen they're truly walking with
God and going after theirdestiny they don't know the
hurdles and the suffering alongthe way.
(50:01):
The wounds.
Yeah.
And the things that happen thatyou have to learn and go
through.
Yeah.
So that's so good.
And I think it's a good reasonto read some of the stories even
of Christians in the lastcenturies of what they went
through, because we look atpeople as big and powerful and
successful and maybe they'venever been through anything.
(50:25):
And it's don't kid yourself.
They have been through stuff.
That's so true.
Yeah.
It's powerful.
I wanted my life to be perfect.
Then I could go see, if you dowhat I do, everything's going to
be fine.
Yes.
It's there's a lie.
Yeah.
I think we all have to learnthat lesson.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
(50:45):
Thank you so much, Gail.
This has been such a pleasureand I just think it's so timely
with Easter being this weekendand today being good Friday.
Yeah.
All the things we've talkedabout and I just think you're a
treasure.
And thank you.
It's such a blessing.
Oh, thank you so much.
And I love that you're sohumble.
You're so humble.
And the way you talk aboutyourself as a self-proclaimed
(51:07):
former Pharisee.
I just think that is such agreat line.
I'm still recovering.
Yeah.
Oh, so gosh.
Oh, but this has been a greattime of sharing.
Thank you for the opportunity toshare my story or a couple of
them.
We're, so thankful that Gail washere with us.
And I just wanna say thisepisode is sponsored by Princess
(51:30):
Gabby Girl the Sparkly Dressbook and Grateful Air Clothing
coming out June 1st.
Follow us on Instagram@Heavenlyhookup_s and you can
find more episodes andeverything I just mentioned on
CamilleBattaglia.com.
Thank you so much and have abeautiful week.
Thank you.
Hello and thank you for joiningus on Heavenly Hookups.
I'm here with Gail McFarland, myguest, and I'm just so excited
about the wealth of informationthat this lady has lived in her
lifetime.
She has worked under Dr.
Jack Hayford.
She had a young adults groupthat she ministered to, for
about 600 people.
This beautiful woman is a wealthof information and I can't wait
(00:23):
for you all to hear from herabout all the troubles and the
triumphs that she encountered.
Her husband had a public affairin Dr.
Jack Hayford's ministry, thenshe had to raise her daughter by
herself.
She was blessed with a secondmarriage for 16 years.
I'm excited that, Gail, thatyou're here and that you can
(00:44):
tell us all about, your life andyour experiences and what you
think would be most helpful.
Thank you, Camille, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be able toshare these stories.
We go through really hardthings, and I've had the Lord
say at times, I know this ishard.
(01:07):
There was no escape hatch.
It was just really hard.
But the victory beyond it, theability to overcome and not just
survive, but thrive.
And I think that's part of mystory.
So I, I married a young man whowas preparing for ministry and
(01:29):
we were high school youthpastors at the Church on the
Way, which is Dr.
Jack Hayford, who recentlypassed away.
And he was my spiritual fatherand my first husband and I were
kind of like the golden couple.
Even great things planned forthis wonderfully anointed couple
(01:52):
and we'd lead worship with ourguitars and blah, blah.
I really enjoyed the celebrityof being on pastoral staff later
on, we lived in Israel for fouryears and survived a war, but
that's another story.
Oh my.
Probably a book.
We came back to pastor, thesingles department, which was
about 600 people.
(02:13):
That's where, now listen, we'reclose to Hollywood there.
This is Tinsel Town out there inLos Angeles.
And so they treat pastors likecelebrities.
And I gotta tell you, I reallyenjoyed that.
Yeah, I bet.
One of the things I calledmyself is a recovering pharisee.
(02:35):
I know.
I love that.
I'm actually glad that thingshappened to me to completely
dismantle my paradigm.
My paradigm of life was if I doeverything right, everything
turns out okay.
And what do you know it didn't.
And my paradigm came crashingdown around my ears when my
(02:59):
husband had an affair with oneof the single women.
She eventually repented, but hedidn't.
And he just, went further andfurther away divorced me.
And here my life was in shamblesand it was very public.
Because there were about 10 to15,000 people at the church at
(03:20):
that time.
So everybody knew.
Wow.
What had happened.
And one day I'm gonna share thisbecause I think it's one of the
most powerful things that couldhave happened to me.
He left when she was 11 monthsold and I'd put her down for a
nap and I just slumped to thefloor in the living room.
(03:42):
And I thought to my, I was justutterly depressed.
I'm sure.
And, I imagined myself beforethe Lord at the great judgment
or whatever, and said, oh Jesus,I'm so sorry I never amounted to
anything.
But Mark destroyed my life.
(04:03):
I expected sympathy.
Yeah.
I didn't get it.
The Lord looked at me.
This is Jesus.
It was like I saw his eyes, helooked at me with great
intensity.
And said, nothing can destroyyour life unless you let it.
(04:23):
Wow.
That's powerful.
And I realized in that moment, Ihad some very serious decisions
to make.
I could still fulfill mydestiny.
Nothing can stop.
Now, obviously I've gottasurvive.
I'm gonna have to move cause wewere in a pastoral house.
There all kinds of convolutionsto life.
(04:43):
I gotta get a job.
And I haven't worked in a fewyears, but it was just
extraordinary because I expectedhim to go, I know honey.
That's okay.
Yeah.
And he didn't, he was like, comeon, give me a little sympathy
here.
But working through it Ieventually thrived.
(05:06):
That was probably the biggestthing to set me on a path for my
future of thriving.
But there was another one aboutthree years later and I was
dealing with stuff.
I was forgiving him.
And forgiveness, let me justsay, forgiveness is a process.
Yeah.
And if anybody's listening andyou've been through horrible
(05:28):
trauma, you have to do it andkeep doing it.
And I said, Lord, I forgive himin your name, but please work
that into my heart.
And he did.
And I went through lots ofhealing.
The other thing is, therapy'sgreat, but I couldn't afford it.
And I thought, I can't imaginethe Lord going, oh gee, kid, I
(05:50):
wish I could help you, but youdon't have the money.
It's okay, it's you and me.
Jesus.
Yeah.
You be my therapist.
You take me through this.
So about three or four yearslater, I'm working, my daughter
is in childcare, which broke myheart.
I had to put her in full-timedaycare at 18 months.
(06:10):
And one morning in my quiet timewith the Lord, he said, do you
want him to know what he did?
And I thought, now that's atrick question.
He knows what he did.
Yeah.
And he did it anyway.
He even told me that.
And I went, I gotta think aboutthis.
What are we talking about here?
(06:31):
So I thought through all of theimplications, all of the people
that were hurt, our owndestinies changed the
ramifications for so many livesand the ramifications of my life
and my daughter's life.
And I thought, Lord, if youreally showed him everything, I
(06:55):
don't think he could take it.
He might commit suicide.
I'm not sure he could handleknowing.
And then I thought, you knowwhat?
You've never told me everythingI've ever done.
And I suddenly realized that notonly did Jesus die, because we
couldn't bear the penalty forour sin, we can't even bear the
(07:19):
weight of the knowledge of it.
And in that moment I said, no,Lord, I don't want him to know
what he did, all of what he did.
And I release him from everknowing.
And that right there was myrelease.
(07:40):
Wow.
I don't know what it did forhim, but that was my release.
I released him from my judgmentof him.
I released him from ever knowingall of the ramifications of his
great sin and the betrayal.
And it mean it's huge whenyou've been betrayed.
(08:01):
And especially at a time in mylife when I needed somebody more
than I'd ever needed anybody, Ihad a tiny baby.
I was still brain dead.
You know the baby brain?
Just it was horrible.
Yeah.
And yet what that release of himand that full forgiveness, I was
(08:23):
able later to look at himeyeball and to eyeball and say,
I love you.
And he got tears in his eyes.
He said, I know I love you too.
Huh?
He eventually asked myforgiveness probably about, 12
to 15 years later.
(08:44):
He said, I'm so sorry for what Iput you through.
Will you forgive me?
But I didn't require it.
And when you go throughsomething like that, you can't
expect it.
And it's the one thing thatpeople who have been victimized
in any way, their deepest desireis that the perpetrator would
(09:05):
really know what they did.
So that's just, that has been avery powerful lesson in my life.
And I honestly believe that iswhat enabled me to thrive.
I was then involved in singlesagain and public speaking that
sort of thing.
And then I met my secondhusband, and we were married for
(09:28):
16 years, and he died suddenly.
You're like, Lord.
I'm sorry.
It's not funny, but I'mchuckling because of the joy of
victory.
Yeah.
The joy of overcoming divorceand death.
And when we finally pulled theplug on him, it's a longer
story, but one of the gals saidaren't you angry?
(09:52):
Why aren't you angry?
And I said I really do trustthat my heavenly father loves
me.
And in that moment I thought, Ireally do.
I never went through the stagesof anger that therapists will
tell you need to go through.
Yeah.
And one of them is anger,skipped it.
(10:14):
Never went through that stage.
You go through, oh my God, Ican't believe this.
It's a denial for a minute.
But the anger stage I never wentthrough because I had been
through so much.
I had learned to trust thefather's love for me.
And now it's many years.
Hence I'm retired.
(10:36):
And starting to write down someof these stories as a legacy for
my daughter and my grandchildrenand whoever else comes along in
the lineage.
That the stories are my legacy.
Yeah, I think that's wonderfulbecause what you just described
is how you experienced totalfreedom in a very difficult
(10:59):
situation.
Until you've been to the otherside of forgiveness.
You don't understand what apowerful tool it is to take away
from the enemy that you don'tkeep yourself trapped in
unforgiveness and that youactually trust and let go.
You experienced total freedom.
Yep.
Yeah.
So that's a huge release.
(11:20):
And you said a very significantthing.
You take the power that theenemy has, you take it away from
him.
And one of the things aboutforgiveness that I did realize
is that if you don't forgive.
Which you have a perfect rightnot to, you have a perfect right
(11:40):
to be bitter and angry, butyou'll be an old bitter hag
nobody wants to be around.
That's your alternative.
It's hard work to forgive.
It's hard work to release.
But doing that work isabsolutely worth it, because the
alternative is hell.
In quotes, the alternative isthe hellish existence of
(12:04):
bitterness and anger and a lifethat is diminished.
Life is greatly diminished bythe depression of it, the
sadness.
And it's interesting, the Lordtold me one time that one of his
favorite memories of me.
(12:25):
He, Re-showed me the picturethat after my husband had left
me and I was still in thepastoral house, it was very
fresh.
But I learned the power of notjust forgiveness, but gratitude
and worship and I picked up mybaby daughter, held her in my
(12:47):
arms, put on some worship music,and danced around the living
room singing worship songs withtears streaming down my face.
Wow.
Grief and relief in the samemoment.
And the Lord told me quite sometime later, that's one of his
(13:08):
most, I'm choking up.
Yeah.
That's one of his most preciousmemories of me.
Worshiping through my tears.
Wow.
Yeah.
And I did it again when mysecond husband died.
But I discovered that gratitudehelps maintain your emotional
(13:29):
equilibrium.
This is the natural part of youthat is sad or depressed or
doesn't know what the future is,and you're afraid and all the
natural things that happen inyour soul.
But when you practice gratitudeto the Lord, it lifts you.
Yeah.
(13:49):
It's, again, it's part of thework of getting healed.
But I went to church one day andone of the pastors said, Hi
Gail, how are you?
And I went, I'm okay.
That's a, I'm really not, but Iam telling you I am.
Yeah.
Because it's the right thing tosay.
Yeah.
And I'm telling you, that was adownward spiral and I went, oh
(14:13):
shoot, I can't do that again.
I need to maintain that worshipand the gratitude and when I ran
out of things to be gratefulfor, I went into the word and I
go, Lord, thank you.
You said, you would never leaveme or forsake me.
Thank you that I'm seated withyou in heavenly places.
(14:34):
And I would just use the Bibleto find things to be thankful
for and I think of David in somany of his psalms.
You see his humanity.
He gets angry about how evilprospers, and he gets depressed
and my soul is downcast.
But he always, there was alwaysa but in his songs.
(14:58):
But I have trust, his Psalm 13,look up Psalm 13.
He's going be merciful lest Isleep, the sleep of death.
He's being very dramatic.
A lot of verses, right?
And he's very depressed.
Yeah.
And down.
And then suddenly there's this,but I have trusted in your
loving kindness, I will singunto the Lord for he has dealt
(15:24):
bountifully with me.
That's one of the most powerfulpsalms because it's a model for
feel the feelings.
Go ahead, feel'em all.
Yeah.
But put the but in there and go,but God, I'm going to trust you
with my life.
With my daughter, with ourwellbeing.
(15:46):
All that I am afraid of, andit's, I think it's really
important.
I've shared some deeplyspiritual things, but it's also
important to allow the humanity.
As a therapist friend of minesays, admit, feel and release.
(16:09):
So you admit it?
I'm miserable.
This sucks.
Yeah.
I don't like it.
You admit it and you allowyourself to feel those feelings
to a point.
But like I said about thedownward spiral of self-pity,
oh, I'm okay.
Please pray for me.
(16:31):
The self-pity is the worst.
Yeah.
And so gratitude and forgivenessand worship help maintain your
emotional equilibrium until thescenery changes.
Yeah.
And unless scenery eventuallychanges.
Yeah, that's so good what youjust said.
(16:51):
Basically you said, if you don'tforgive, you don't forget.
Oh yeah.
It steals your entire life fromyou.
And like you said, no one'sgonna wanna be around you.
Your kids aren't gonna be aroundyou.
It's because you're stuck.
Yeah.
The worship helps you getunstuck.
Going to the Bible, speaking,what's in the word, helps you
(17:12):
get unstuck.
And I know that, every day, Iwork on that, there's always
something that makes me almoststumble or stumble.
And then I go to the word and Itry to write a list that of
things I'm grateful for and itdoes pull me back to the other
side.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It actually has an effect thatis, as I said, maintaining your
(17:38):
emotional equilibrium.
I could tell when I was dippingbelow the waves, as it were.
Yeah.
And the waves crash.
When you go through somethingtraumatic, it's wave after wave.
And you wonder when it's gonnaend.
And it feels very dark and theword is very powerful to keep
you afloat.
(17:59):
But choosing to trust, when yougo through something, you have a
lot of choices that you have tomake.
And choosing to trust.
I will put my trust in the Lord.
Trust is not a feeling, neitheris forgiveness.
Forgiveness is a decision thatyou have the power to forgive
(18:23):
another person.
And trusting is a decision.
And I liken it to stepping fromone room into another where you
simply decide to go into thenext room.
I'm deciding, Lord, I will putmy trust in you.
I may not feel it, but it isn'tabout feelings.
(18:44):
It's about your choosing totrust his goodness.
And that's what the enemy lovesto throw in your face.
If God is good, why?
And I had a coworker once, anbeliever who said to me one day,
and it was very tender, but hesaid, Gail, how can you believe
(19:08):
that God is good?
Look at all you've been through.
And I said, yes.
Take a good long look at allI've been through.
If I say God is good, he's good.
And the guy just looked at mewith wide eyes and had no
response whatsoever becausegoing through and thriving,
(19:35):
overcoming is so powerful.
And then your light shines forthin a deeper way.
It makes you more authentic togo through all this hard stuff.
It really does.
And I didn't wanna go throughany of it.
I wanted everything to be justperfect.
So I wouldn't have to suffer.
Yeah.
(19:55):
It's like the scripture thatsays that I may know Christ and
the power of his resurrectionand the fellowship of his
sufferings, whatever that is, Idon't wanna know that.
We just, we kind of skip overthe fellowship of his
sufferings.
Yeah.
But when you allow that to shapeyou, it transforms you.
(20:18):
And you sense the oneness withChrist.
That doesn't come any other way,but through suffering, we are
one with Christ.
We all know that.
Yes, you are one with Lord hecomes to live in us.
But going through suffering isreally a fellowship with the
Lord.
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And it's amazing.
You're making me think aboutlast Sunday at church what
pastor Jason said about thepassion.
People don't realize the passionmeans suffering.
Isn't that right?
Yes.
Isn't that what he said?
Yes.
The word passion.
That's why the movie Mel Gibsonmade the Passion of the Christ.
Yeah, I know.
I got it at that moment.
(21:00):
Yeah.
And it's interesting that todaywe're talking about this and
today is Good Friday.
I know.
I thought the same thing.
It's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
It's a day when we don't have tomourn as those who have no hope.
He died and we honor him.
But the Bible says we died withhim.
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I'm not sure I fully understandthat yet.
I've still got a lot to learn.
Yeah, me too.
But that's the fun ofovercoming.
Yeah.
Because it's here I am in thisseason of my life with my gray
hair and I'm going, oh, I haveso much to learn.
Isn't this exciting?
(21:42):
And every now and then, now youneed to know I am still
believing for the restoration ofmy daughter.
And I live with her and myson-in-law and my granddaughter,
and I see the hurt.
But she knows my story and shehas said I know I have to
forgive my father.
And I'll tell you a miracle thathappened because she was so mad
(22:04):
at him.
She wanted him to, this is threeyears ago, she said, I hope he
dies of miserable death.
And I said, nothing, becausethere's nothing you can say in
that moment, like oh, don't saythat, that, it's don't do that.
It's useless.
Over the last few years, I'vewatched the Lord work in her
heart, and she and I went up toNew York just before Christmas
(22:26):
and met with him, and shereconciled with her natural
father.
Wow.
And it was a miracle that shewent from hating him and wanting
him to die a horrible death.
And I don't know how it happenedexcept that, holy Spirit,
there's a wonderful verse.
(22:47):
If anybody's listening and youhave children and they're,
they've ridden off the rails,and you think, oh God, can you
ever bring them back to faith?
There's a wonderful verse thatsays, A bruised reed, he will
not break and a dimly burningwick or fire, he will not put
out.
So I looked at my daughterthrough the years, she's a
(23:08):
believer, but got real secularand new age and whatnot and I
just thought, no, it's a dimlyburning wick, and he won't snuff
it out, he'll blow on it, andrevive her.
Every now and then, the Lordlets me see a bit of revival in
her.
But he also said, let the taresgrow with the wheat because
(23:31):
we're parents and we want sobadly for our children to know
the Lord and to prosper and torecover from all the trauma
they've been through.
It's easy to get in the way, andthe Lord told me, let the tares
grow with the wheat.
I know where the tares are, Iknow what to do about them you
don't.
And it's you let me take care ofthis.
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I've got her, I'm in charge andmy job is to rest and trust.
Yeah.
Oh, interesting.
There we go.
Back to trusting again.
At every turn that seemsdifficult.
He's saying kinda like Aladdin.
Do you trust me?
That wonderful scene where hewants her to get on the carpet?
(24:13):
Do you trust me?
Yeah.
And she can see in his eyes, oh,she sees that, that familiar
look.
And I feel like that's Jesus alot of times.
Do you trust me when the goinggets hard?
I go, yes, Lord, I'm scared, butI trust you.
That's a good image.
Oh, the films are full ofwonderful stuff.
(24:34):
Yeah, they are.
It's interesting that she feltthat way about her dad because
she was so little when this allhappened.
Did she see him throughout herchildhood?
He would show up at awardceremonies.
Oh.
So of course she got straightA's he really wasn't that
involved and there were justother things that happened once
(24:56):
she got older.
That she collected some hurts ofher own from him.
And so it's been an absolutemiracle to see her forgive him,
but she knew my testimony andthis is the power of testimony
and why, I wanna write it downand leave it for posterity or
whoever, this is fun.
I get to say it online.
(25:18):
Because it's very powerful torealize that God really is at
work in us to bring us to newplaces all the time.
And the power of forgiveness.
The power of worship.
And I'm not just talking aboutsinging songs.
I'm talking about in your quiettime, you could have tears
streaming down your face and yougo, God, I'm gonna trust you.
(25:41):
You are my God.
And there is no other, that'sworship.
And it, it doesn't have to bewhat we always think of it as,
go to church and sing the songs.
It's no, it's your heart.
It's having a heart of worship,a heart of gratitude.
And there are yet victories Ihope for, but I have seen one
that was a hope for years and itfinally came to pass.
(26:04):
And she's 37 so it just came topass in this last year.
That's great.
Yeah.
Isn't that amazing.
But it's also, I actuallystopped praying.
It's probably good too.
It is.
Because the Lord said, listen,you have asked, yes, I have
heard you.
I have heard you.
(26:25):
I'm doing this.
I've got her several times.
He would say, let the tares growwith the wheat.
All the different things he hassaid to me.
Yeah.
It's will you please relax?
You don't have to fight and prayand get all energized about,
there are times when you do,I've actually had a moment where
(26:46):
I go, okay, that's it.
And I bind something, we canbind, we can lose.
He's given us the power and Isee the power of it, but for the
most part, what he has called meto do is rest and trust.
And you be you.
Yeah.
It's kinda like, come on Gail,you go do what I'm calling you
to do.
Don't worry about her.
(27:07):
I've got her, I've got him, I'vegot whoever, don't you worry
about them, you follow me?
And so it's okay, pursue theLord and what he's calling me to
do.
And I still pray occasionally,it's that kind of desperate
prayer that he said, no, youdon't need to do that.
(27:28):
Yeah.
Boy, have I learned that lately,the last couple weeks too.
Really?
Yeah.
Just to let it go and surrenderand that God loves your children
no matter where they are andwhat they're doing.
Yes, he holds the tether.
And we would want to hold thetether a little closer.
And he goes, no, don't worry.
I know it looks like it's reallyfar away, but I've got it.
(27:51):
Yeah.
He's still got the tetherbecause of his love I had to
realize that the Lord loves mydaughter more than I do.
And that was after I discoveredthat she had been exposed to SRA
Satanic Ritual abuse.
Oh, wow.
Wow.
As a very young child.
(28:11):
Oh my gosh.
And yes.
Oh, talk about adding insult toinjury.
You could go, really, God?
put her in childcare and this iswhat happens.
And anyway, believing that nomatter what she was programmed
with or whatever they did, Ihave had to forgive them.
And you go, wait a second.
Wait a second.
That's pure evil.
(28:33):
Yes it is.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
That's what we would call pureevil.
We label it that and it's canyou believe Romans 8:28?
It's either true, all the waytrue or it's not.
That God causes all things towork together for good and it to
(28:55):
those who love God and arecalled according to his purpose.
There's the whole verse.
And one of my friends once said,God is able to play 3D chess to
the nth power.
If you think about a 3D chessboard, first of all, chess is an
intellectual game.
Requires great strategy.
And do it 3D.
And then think to the nth power,how he moves the pieces of the
(29:18):
chess board so that it does themost good for the most people.
And you go, how do you do that?
I think his answer is, I'm Godand you're not.
It's yes, I have a bigger brainhere and I can do this.
And he can and he will.
So that when we hit these reallyhard times he's asking, do you
(29:39):
trust me?
And do you trust that I am ableand willing to work at all for
good, especially when it looksawful and unfixable.
Wow.
So how old was she when youfigured out she was exposed to
SRA?
She was five when she disclosed.
(30:00):
Oh my gosh.
So she was around it for severalyears then?
For probably age two we startedseeing strange symptoms, but
finally yeah, it was actually,maybe she was four, but close to
five.
And it's a longer story.
We still haven't figuredeverything out.
But I remember Erin asking meone time, do you think the Lord
(30:24):
could heal me without meremembering everything?
And I said, oh, yes.
Oh, absolutely.
He's 100% committed to yourtotal freedom and release and
it's Holy Spirit.
He's so powerful and he knowseverything.
I still don't know all thedetails of what happened to my
daughter, but he knows, and Itrust him with what he knows.
(30:49):
I just, I was gonna burst intotears for a second.
You just said, Yes, God can healyou without you remembering all
of those details.
I think I know and love someonevery dearly who is traumatized
by something in the past, andit's not nearly as bad as what
you're describing, but they justdon't wanna go through the
(31:10):
wounds or let it go to get thehealing.
I just think that is a beautifulthing you just said that God and
the Holy Spirit can take it fromyou.
Jesus can take it from you ifyou let him, and you won't have
to remember it.
You won't have to remember thepain and the hurts and the
wounds.
I have a couple of friends whoare going through healing from
(31:30):
SRA and one gal was deeply intoit as a child and greatly
traumatized by it.
But the Lord has been gentlewith her.
He will only let you know whatyou're ready to know.
Again, it's about trusting God'sheart of love, the whole thing
(31:51):
that the enemy calls intoquestion is God good and does he
love you?
Does he love somebody else morethan you?
No.
He absolutely loves every personthat he made, that he put his
image in, that we are made inthe image of God.
It's like you have the image inyou and he loves who he made.
(32:13):
I don't care what mess you'vemade of you, he loves you.
Mess and all.
I think that we've just gottenaway from God not being afraid
of messiness.
Yeah.
Where we go you've gotta do thisand you've gotta do that.
And Christianity has created somany boxes, and we've gotten
(32:33):
away, many churches have gottenaway from the core of the gospel
is that God made you and heloves you, and he knows exactly
what you've done with your lifeand how you've messed it up.
And he goes I don't care.
I love you.
Would you trust me to heal you?
And deliver, you set you free.
(32:53):
I still have plans for you.
And people get discouragedthinking, oh, God can't love me
anymore.
Yeah.
I've done way too much shame.
The shame, the shame.
The shame.
Yeah.
And that's a lie.
That's a lie of the enemy.
Oh, now you've blown it.
Now you've committed theunpardonable sin.
Nope.
Nope.
(33:14):
He isn't afraid to get his handsdirty.
I love that.
Yes, that's right.
Jeremiah 29:11.
Yes, exactly.
For I know the plans I have foryou says the Lord for you to
prosper and succeed.
Yeah.
And you're right.
There's nothing he can't fixcause that's the lie.
The enemy wants us to stay inthat trap that, oh, you've done
(33:35):
it now you've blown it.
Yep.
It's not fixable.
And I think it's a really goodquestion to ask ourselves, what
are the lies I'm believe in?
And I know it's hard when you'refeeling all the hard feelings.
It's hard to suddenly flip aswitch and get spiritual about
it, if you can do it, it's agood thing where you can go
(33:57):
whoa.
Am I believing a lie?
What am I thinking right now?
What am I believing?
I believe there's no hope.
That's a lie.
That's always a lie.
100% of the time.
But there were lies I believedabout myself.
Like I always thought I wasn'tcreative, and that's a long
story, but the Lord healed me ofthat.
(34:19):
And I went, oh my gosh, I'mcreative.
All my life, I thought I wasn't.
And so that was a lie aboutmyself that I believed when in
fact, It's a part of who hecreated me to be.
I always thought of myself as abit of a hobbit, let everybody
else have the adventures.
I just want tea at four and stayhome and read books about
(34:41):
adventures.
But I had to realize that wasanother lie.
I'm extremely adventurous.
It's an important question toask, am I believing a lie?
Because Holy Spirit will tellyou.
I just love it.
Jesus said, the Holy Spirit willlead you into all truth.
(35:04):
It's holy Spirit, what do I needto know?
Please tell me if there's a lieI'm believing.
Or maybe it's not even a lie,but I just love, I've learned to
love the Lord's judgment.
And it's very gentle.
Sometimes Holy Spirit will go,you're fussing.
(35:26):
Oh yeah, I'm fussing and that'sit.
All I have to do is hear.
That's kinda funny.
Stop fussing.
And because I've got my knickersin a knot about something, and
I'm upset.
Yeah.
And I hear this still smallvoice.
You're fussing.
And I shift.
So he can do that with anything.
(35:48):
He could suddenly say, that'snot the truth.
That's a lie.
It's so funny saying that,because I posted several times
on my Heavenhookup_s Instagrampage about the truth.
And then the last one was dailyquestion, are you believing a
lie?
And I showed it to my youngestson and he's mom, no one's
(36:10):
gonna, no one wants to knowthey're believing a lie.
No one, thinks they believe alie.
That's the problem.
And I'm like, it's true.
We don't we think everything weare saying is right and
everybody else absolutely iswrong.
Yes.
But the thing is, when you'reliving a lie, you don't know it
unless you do ask the HolySpirit.
It's funny.
(36:30):
And that's the hope.
Oh my gosh.
That's the hope.
I love Holy Spirit.
Because you can ask anything youwant.
Yeah.
I think a lot of myconversations with the Lord.
I ask him lots of questions.
How about this?
Why that?
It, sometimes I don't getanswers, but sometimes I do
(36:52):
because we have conversations.
But asking Holy Spirit, pleasereveal truth to me.
For those who don't know theHoly Spirit, what do you mean?
When you hear from the Lord oryou hear from the Holy Spirit,
how are you hearing and whatdoes it sound like?
It's a thought.
I've never heard the audiblevoice of the Lord.
And to be truthful, there aretimes I'll hear something in my
(37:14):
head and I go, I don't know ifthat's you or me.
If that's you're gonna need toconfirm it another way, because
I can't quite tell.
But there have been many times,and usually for me, because I'm
such a logical person, and Ithink in terms of a logical
progression, I can go, oh, yeah,that's my thought.
I just thought through it and Ifigured it out.
(37:37):
But he will broadside me with athought that came out of
nowhere.
And that's when I go, oh.
Oh my gosh.
That's you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I know it.
Usually, it's not a logicalprogression that leads to a
conclusion.
It's just a thought that breaksthrough my, whatever I'm
thinking about.
(37:58):
It could be thinking about whatI'm going to make for dinner.
And it's just and this is whypeople get revelations in the
shower.
Yeah, I know.
Because you're doing somethingelse.
And I think he just knows me ifI'm real quiet.
I sometimes I don't know if I'mhearing from him.
(38:18):
It's something that you learn todiscern his voice and you ask
for that.
You ask Lord, help me hear yourvoice.
There are a lot of good bookswritten about hearing the voice
of God.
But it's not something, and Iknow people have heard the
audible voice, but I would sayin general it's a thought in my
(38:41):
head.
Just unknowing.
So as you develop yourrelationship with the Lord, then
you start to hear more.
And so if we could just go backa little bit, I wanted to know
what was Dr.
Jack Hayford's reaction to theaffair?
How did he take it?
How did he treat you?
Because my husband was his righthand man, he was very hurt.
(39:06):
Oh, wow.
And very angry.
But with me, he was very gentle.
I went to his office one day andwe had tea together and he said,
honey, we're gonna take care ofit.
And they did.
I was taken in by some closefriends, so that, God bless
(39:26):
them, they were willing to takeme and a baby who didn't sleep
through the night.
The church paid them money andgave me spending money and then
they paid for me to get into anapartment so I could, in other
words, they got me back on myfeet and that's wonderful.
(39:47):
They were a huge support.
I was about six months from thetime he left until I was able to
get a job and move into anapartment, and so they supported
me through that whole time.
Now, were you, did you stay withhis ministry and his church?
(40:08):
Oh yeah.
And that was hard.
Oh, yeah.
In fact, that's where I hadmarried my second husband, and
Jack performed that ceremony.
He performed with both of them.
Oh, that's great.
But yeah, I remember, I thinkone of the hardest things to
take when something is public isthe piteous looks of people.
(40:28):
They don't know what to say.
They don't know how to treatyou.
And so I would go to church lateand leave early.
I'd sit in the back and leaveearly until I decided to despise
the shame as it says of Jesus, Ineed to just, I need to walk
with my head up.
But that was probably a fewmonths before I could do that.
(40:51):
I just wanted to come and goquietly and not have to face
people looking at me.
I had close friends that I coulddump on and they made me laugh
and we went out together and, Ibegan to live again, but I still
had a tiny baby.
(41:13):
I was taken care of so it washard.
It was just a really hard time.
But the church was there for meand Jack was there for me
personally, and he always waseven through the death of my
second husband.
He has truly been my spiritualfather.
And I would have to say that themain thing Jack taught was
(41:36):
overcoming.
He taught me to be an overcomer.
He also taught me to beauthentic.
I have a degree in theater, sowhen I came to know the Lord, my
personality was bits and piecesof parts I'd played that made me
look cool.
And Jack was so authentictelling stories about himself,
and I thought you would think ifyou're open and honest, that
(41:59):
people won't respect you.
And the opposite is true, I'vediscovered.
Yeah.
And I learned what I calltransparency.
I learned that from him.
That's interesting that youthought you weren't creative
yet, you were a theater major.
I know.
That doesn't make any sense,Gail.
Oh, and I was a singersongwriter.
I was a singing hippie in theJesus movement in Hollywood.
(42:21):
Sang in a coffee house, wrotesongs.
Yeah, I've had a fairly colorfullife, so is there anything you
wanna share with us now aboutthe hippie movement now that
this Jesus Revolution movie isout?
It's interesting.
I don't know how much time wehave but yeah, the Jesus
Revolution movie, I was verygrateful that they didn't
sugarcoat anything.
(42:44):
It's quite authentic.
Have you seen it?
I haven't seen it.
No.
I haven't seen it yet, but Ican't wait.
It's quite authentic and KelseyGrammer does a great job with
it, but it does appear becauseof the Time Magazine article.
You get the sense from the moviethat Costa Mesa is where the
(43:04):
Jesus movement started and itreally didn't.
It was already going inHollywood when I got there in
1968, after college and the, oneof my dearest friends was the
flashpoint for the Jesusmovement in Hollywood.
She was living on the streets.
(43:27):
She was a hippie, and she gotpregnant.
And showed up at HollywoodPresbyterian Church.
And this is a church that's oneblock away from Hollywood
Boulevard, and it's a bigimportant church.
Celebrities went there, suitsand dresses and hats and
whatnot, and, she went to thatchurch one time and the college
(43:51):
pastor was speaking and shewaited to talk with him
afterwards and burst into tearsand said, I'm pregnant, and I
don't know what to do.
Long story short, he found someelders in the church to take her
in until she had her baby, andthen she gave the baby up for
adoption.
But she said to him, his name isDon Williams.
(44:12):
And she said, Don, you've takenme into your world.
I wanna take you into mine.
And she took him to the streetsand showed him what was really
happening.
And he wrote a book called Tothe Streets.
He said, we gotta do somethingabout this.
These young people are hungryand nobody's giving them bread.
(44:33):
Figurative bread.
You just gave me chills.
So he started a ministry.
Where they went out in thestreets, they started community
houses, so people would've aplace to live.
And you see that in the film.
You see a community house andpeople bringing food.
That was happening in Hollywoodby this time.
(44:54):
By the time I met her it was'68,'69, and I think, Lonnie Frisbee
came in 1970 to Costa Mesa.
But anyway, we had maybe six orseven community houses that
would take people in and theelders and deacons at Hollywood
(45:15):
Press Church would make meals.
They had it all organized.
They would bring meals and theywould eat with the with the
young people in the homes.
And it was a beautiful thingthat the church allowed hippies
with barefoot and or sandals,and t-shirts and jeans sitting
(45:37):
next to suits.
And you see that in the film?
And that's what happened inHollywood, but it was also
happening in Kansas.
It was also, it's almost likethe Asbury Revival where it
starts to break out everywhere.
Yeah.
I think Holy Spirit was doingsomething in that era, but the
public thing happened because ofa journalist who investigated
(46:04):
and then wrote the Time Magazinearticle, and that's what really
put it on the map.
And Calvary Chapel became thestart of Maranatha music, so
it's an important film.
Yeah.
It's an important historicalmovie.
And there's a documentary aboutthe Hollywood Jesus movement
called Salt and Light, it's adocumentary, it's not a movie
(46:26):
like this.
But yeah, that was a fun era.
And then I had, after about fouryears, discovered the Church on
the Way.
The charismatic renewal washappening.
So I became a singer there andworship leader and whatnot.
But now my daughter's themusician.
(46:48):
That's a great story.
Thank you for sharing that.
Before we hop off what advicewould you have for singles or
married people?
I know that's a loaded question.
Sure it is.
You used to minister to a lot ofyoung people.
Is there anything you wanna sayto them?
In today's world, it's sodifferent.
Oh, it is.
Having been single three times.
Of course we all start outsingle, but I never expected to
(47:11):
be single twice.
Now I'm single again.
You hear that gentleman.
I think the most important thingis to keep saying yes to Jesus.
Even if you never get married,let go of that.
I know it's hard.
I have friends.
I have a friend who, she's afabulous woman.
(47:31):
She's in her fifties, never beenmarried, and you go, what the
heck?
It's really important, Ibelieve, to be honest.
In fact, Jack Hayford was askedthe question, what is the most
important thing in order to be,I think the question implied to
be successful, whatever.
(47:52):
And he said, honesty before God.
And I believe that's true.
It's honesty.
But I would add to that and say,just keep saying yes.
There was a young girl when I,we were pastoring the singles
and like I said, we werecelebrities and she had stars in
her eyes.
It's like, how do you get to beyou?
I said, just say yes.
(48:14):
At every turn of the road.
And years later I saw her Iremember thinking, what would
she say now that my whole lifeis at shambles?
And I thought, I would still sayyes.
Years later, I saw her in arestaurant and she looked,
chewed up and spit out.
Life had not been kind to her,as they say.
(48:35):
I got a chance to share with herand I said, Elaine, I still say
the same thing.
Just say yes to Jesus, say yesto what He leads you say yes to
the hardness, this suffering,say yes.
And don't worry about whetheryou're getting married or not.
(48:56):
And I know it's wow, easier saidthan done, but it's really for
eternity and for the sake of thekingdom.
It's about saying yes.
You were able to speak to hernow from this place.
Yeah.
Of your pain that you wentthrough was more powerful than
if your life had been perfect.
(49:18):
Yeah.
She, if you, life was still likeshe saw it years ago.
Yeah.
She would think she messed uphad you not gone through the
suffering.
Yeah.
That you did go through.
Exactly.
And I tried so hard to beperfect, but I have to tell you,
I'm a happy failure.
That's so good.
(49:40):
Yeah.
I know.
That is so good.
I was still, what you just said,I was thinking about this
morning.
Because everybody looks at theend result.
Yeah.
And they want that, but theydon't know that the pain and the
suffering that people go throughwhen they're truly walking with
God and going after theirdestiny they don't know the
hurdles and the suffering alongthe way.
(50:01):
The wounds.
Yeah.
And the things that happen thatyou have to learn and go
through.
Yeah.
So that's so good.
And I think it's a good reasonto read some of the stories even
of Christians in the lastcenturies of what they went
through, because we look atpeople as big and powerful and
successful and maybe they'venever been through anything.
(50:25):
And it's don't kid yourself.
They have been through stuff.
That's so true.
Yeah.
It's powerful.
I wanted my life to be perfect.
Then I could go see, if you dowhat I do, everything's going to
be fine.
Yes.
It's there's a lie.
Yeah.
I think we all have to learnthat lesson.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
(50:45):
Thank you so much, Gail.
This has been such a pleasureand I just think it's so timely
with Easter being this weekendand today being good Friday.
Yeah.
All the things we've talkedabout and I just think you're a
treasure.
And thank you.
It's such a blessing.
Oh, thank you so much.
And I love that you're sohumble.
You're so humble.
And the way you talk aboutyourself as a self-proclaimed
(51:07):
former Pharisee.
I just think that is such agreat line.
I'm still recovering.
Yeah.
Oh, so gosh.
Oh, but this has been a greattime of sharing.
Thank you for the opportunity toshare my story or a couple of
them.
We're, so thankful that Gail washere with us.
And I just wanna say thisepisode is sponsored by Princess
(51:30):
Gabby Girl the Sparkly Dressbook and Grateful Air Clothing
coming out June 1st.
Follow us on Instagram@Heavenlyhookup_s and you can
find more episodes andeverything I just mentioned on
CamilleBattaglia.com.
Thank you so much and have abeautiful week.
Thank you.
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