Secrets of an Undercover Cop

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hector Bravo.
Unhinged Chaos is now insession.
Welcome back to our channel,the Warriors.
We are still growing.
Today, another banger for youguys.
I have none other than Manny, aformer Fresno PD police officer

(00:22):
and former narcotic undercovercop.
That's right, fresno PD.
What up, manny?
How's it going?
Man, pretty good.
Thank you for the invite.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Oh, thanks for having me First time in podcasting,
never done it before, hey bro,like I was telling you earlier,
it's 2025.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
This is what people do now, and thanks to your son
for hooking it up, man, viaemail.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Okay, thank you for the invite once again.
Absolutely it, okay.
Thank you for the invite onceagain.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
Absolutely.
It's a little pleasure to behere.
For sure, bro, you said youwere born in Mexico.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yes, I was born in Mexico, in Zacatecas, okay, and
that's where my roots came.
I came to the United Stateswhen I was four years old.
Do you remember anything from upuntil the age of four?
No, not really I remember.
The only thing that I rememberis leaving where we lived at in

(01:08):
Zacatecas, then coming toTijuana.
Okay, while my dad, you know,obviously went through the legal
system and so he could get ourlegal resident cards so we could
come across into the UnitedStates, and that took about
almost 12 months.
So I lived in TJ for almost ayear.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
I'm starting to realize, dude.
I interview a lot of peoplethat have a background from
Mexico or other countries, andyou know, hearing this whole
process is very interesting,dude.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I mean that was the process.
You know it wasn't likeobviously we could have came
across, it would have been maybeeasier or you know, obviously
the expenses were there, but wewent through the legal system.
That's good.
My dad was able to get ourlegal residence.
Like I said, it took almostlike a year.
So then once he had them,obviously we all of us I

(01:58):
remember going to the UnitedStates Embassy in Tijuana and we
were able to get our residentcards there and we came across.
Where did you guys go?
Monterey?
No, from there I remember goingto, we went to Santa Paula
where my dad had relativesWhere's that at.

(02:19):
It's like at the LA area.
Okay, we went there for aboutfive months and then from there,
we ended up moving to Salinas,salinas, yeah, we moved to
Salinas and we were there forabout a year, and after Salinas,
after Salinas, then what we didis we moved to King City.
Okay, and that's where you know, obviously I was raised at,

(02:39):
that's where.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
I went to school.
How far is King City from?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Fresno, but depends Where's King City from Fresno,
but depends If you go through152 down south 101, it takes
about three and a half to fourhours.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Oh dude, that's pretty far.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
But if you cross over 198 through Clinga it's about
two hours.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Now growing up.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Were there any gangs during that time period when I
was growing up, not so muchearly on when I was in junior
high.
It got more like when I was injunior high.
It got more like when I was intowards the high school years.
Then you started to see a lotof you know teens get into what
they called gangs.
Back there it was like morelike sureños norteños, but I was

(03:17):
never interested in that.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
What is the reason that you never got interested in
?
Were your parents deterring youfrom that lifestyle?
Or it just never crossed paths?

Speaker 2 (03:26):
You know what One of us, our parents, really
instilled doing the right thing,the values and morals of the
family.
They always told us thatwhatever decisions we made,
positive or negative, if youmade negative decisions you were
going to have consequences.
So they kind of kept us awayfrom that.
The other thing, what they didis in a very early age I think I

(03:49):
was maybe like 11 years old wewould be every summer.
If we didn't go to summerschool, we would end up going to
the fields and work in theagriculture.
Fields.
At what age?
At 10, 11.
Do you remember that?
Yes, I remember it.
I worked picking chilies,tomates.
I remember doing a little bitof the grapes, but it was more

(04:12):
tomatoes, chilies, and we didn'tdo a whole lot.
But then the garlic came andthat's where we would do all our
summers at.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
You're a father now.
What life lesson do you thinkthat was instilling in you back
then?

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Hard work, hard work.
That's one of the things that Iinstilled in my children is one
of the things is whatever youdecide to do is be a hard worker
.
Don't complain and always letyour job, your work ethic, do
the talking for you.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
You sound like an older version of me, man.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
I like that and I tell my kids that's it.
I said are you always going tohave problems at work?
Absolutely, absolutely.
Would you be sometimes kind ofput to the side somewhat
discriminated?
Absolutely, but why complainabout it?
Do something about it, right?
I always tell my kids.
One thing that I honestly couldsay that I didn't do throughout
my career in law enforcement ispromote.

(05:07):
I never promote it.
Things happen for a reason,though.
Yeah, that's true and for areason um, I think that's the
only regret I have.
And I tell my, my kids now oneof my eldest is actually works
for the sheriff's office.
So I tell him if you don't likesomething where you're at, you
want to it promote so you couldchange it.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
True, but it's a big bureaucracy though man.
It's a machine to try to changesomething.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, it is in a sense, but I think if you do it
the right way and do it the goodway, the good intentions, it
always works, even thoughthere's some bureaucracy
sometimes, I think if you do itfor the better, it's always
accepted.
True, when you were working forthe better, it's always
accepted.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
True when you were working in the field.
Were they just locals workingin the fields or were they also
out of people?

Speaker 2 (05:51):
I remember there were people that would come from
other states, like Texas wouldhave Washington, oregon.
There were people from otherstates that would come and work
in the fields.
They would do seasonals so theywould follow the seasons.
So when they would come to, youknow, obviously they would come
to California into the SalinasValley.
They were following theiragriculture and the seasons.

(06:13):
So they would come here andthen after it was done,
obviously in the Salinas Valley,then they would go back to
their areas to do theiragriculture up in the you know
Washington, the areas to do thetheir agriculture up in the um,
you know washington oregon,which is has to do with apples
and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
So your apples, cherries up there.
Yeah, I just thought of animportant question.
Um, they were teaching you hardwork, but did that come with
any rewards or incentives?
What was the?
Was there a gratification atthe end of that?

Speaker 2 (06:41):
yes, it was, and it was a very good.
It's a valid point that I evenpass on to my kids.
Um, obviously I could tell youmy father and my mother, um,
were you know, when they grew upin mexico?
They were not, they didn't goto school.
My dad went to like third grade, obviously.
My mom went, I think, to likefifth grade yeah so they weren't
really educated.

(07:02):
So when they came to the unitedstates they obviously they had
to work in the, in the fieldsand labor.
So my dad and my mom wouldalways say if you never want to
be where we're at, there's onething you could do is educate
yourself, go to school and get acareer, so you don't have to be
here.
If you don't want to go toschool, you're going to end up

(07:23):
here with us.
So you don't have to be here.
If you don't want to go toschool, you're going to end up
here with us.
Wow, so that was for us.
That was the incentive is notto go work in the fields, and I
could tell you it was a hardwork Every summer from there on
out, when I was 11, 12, 13, Iwould work clipping garlic Every
summer, I would clip garlic.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I like that.
You explained that to me, man,because the way my brain was
thinking as you're telling methis is like hey, you better
take me to go buy some pizzaafter this, some ice cream.
But you're like nah, the lessonis that if you don't get your
shit together and get aneducation, you're going to end
up right here.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
That was it.
That was always the lesson thatmy parents always told us, and
that's what I teach my kids.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
I like it bro.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
If you don't want to have a career, then hey, just
after high school, go, startworking wherever you want.
You're not going to like thejob you're going to get.
You want a good job, the jobsyou like.
You have to be educated.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
I like it, bro, I like it.
So, dude, clearly you went fromworking in the field at the age
of 10 and 11 to becoming apolice officer.
What got triggered in therebetween?

Speaker 2 (08:28):
You know I was always .
I always liked the idea ofbeing in law enforcement, ever
since I was a little kid.
From television shows, yeah,television shows, but also from.
I remember hearing stories whenI was, you know, when I was
small, young, from like myparents, my dad saying that you
saying that they had family thatwere police officers in Mexico.
Okay, so that was kind of likeI would hear it, but also from

(08:50):
the television shows.
I liked it, obviously.
As I grew up and started goingto junior high, I started
playing sports and through thesports, especially through golf,
I met.
Obviously, you played golf,yeah, I played golf when I was
in high school.
Wow, dude.
Yeah, I was probably one of theonly Mexicans that played there.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Bro, like I'm just really, as I'm getting to learn
your story, I'm like, hey, thisguy was born in Mexico, migrated
over here, worked in the fieldsand now he's playing golf and
then becomes a cop.
Bro, like you're literally thedefinition of you can do
anything if you apply yourselfright, regardless of your
backgrounds or circumstance.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Right and I think there's like nowadays, there's
always a misconception.
Uh oh, I can't do this becauseof a, b or c, but it's not true,
the only person that could keepyou from ever accomplishing
anything in life uh, withwhether it's education, career
is yourself.
Facts, the facts, that's it.

(09:48):
You are.
The one that blocks yourself,that keeps from succeeding, is
yourself Did you ever serve inthe military?

Speaker 1 (09:56):
No, not in the.
No, I didn't.
I say that because they embedthat in you in the military.
That's something that theyembed into, um, embed into your
brain, but, like your parents,did an excellent job of raising
you, bro.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
I mean I never, I just didn't like the military.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
I'll be honest with you no, that quote I wasn't
directing about the military.
I'm saying that the mindset oflike, hey man, you can
accomplish anything right aslong as you give it your all
yeah, and you know, like I said,that was the instillment that
our parents taught us.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
It's like nobody could stop what you want to do
but yourself.
Did you have siblings?
Yes, I did.
I had seven siblings, were youin the oldest, or I was like the
third eldest, and I do havesiblings that either became
police officers or they're inthe medical field.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Okay, so we're pretty good.
So you were watching the TV.
How old were you when youapplied, and was Fresno PD your
first agency that you applied to?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
No, so what I did is, like I told you, playing golf.
I met a lot of people playingand I met a couple of highway
patrol officers and they wouldalways tell me what the highway
patrol did and their career.
So I kind of got interestedyeah so what I did is I applied
to the california highway patrol.
I went through their testingprocess.
You know the written, theinterviews.

(11:16):
I was, you know, 20, I was like20 and a half okay when I went
through the process.
Um, I made it all the waythrough, got selected, went to
the final chief's interview,okay, and I was denied from
moving on just because of my age.
I remember the chief or thedeputy chief that I went to see

(11:38):
in San Luis Obispo told me thatI was too young.
He told me to go out and get afew years of life experience and
then to reapply.
It bummed me out.
I was kind of prettydisappointed just because I was
able to make it that far and tobe denied.
I felt a little bit more like afailure.

(11:58):
So I ended up going home and mydad asked me what happened.
I told him hey, this is whathappened.
So he says okay.
So what are you going to do?
He says are you going to stoptrying or are you going to do
something else?
And I told him no, I want tokeep trying.
So he says okay, then what areyou going to do?
Are you going to wait the twoyears or is there something else

(12:19):
you could do?
And I says, no, there'ssomething else you could do.
So he says, okay, then Ifthat's what you want to do, then
pursue it.
So what I ended up doing is Ienrolled back into City College
in Salinas.
At Harnell I took reserveclasses to become a reserve
police officer, went through theclasses, got it and then I
applied at Gonzales PoliceDepartment.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
Small agency Gonzales Gonzales by.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Soledad by Soledad.
Yes, I ended up becoming areserve there.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
I was like 21 years old.
Reserve is actually.
You're sworn in as well, rightPeace officer.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yes, so you get sworn in as a peace officer, but you
can't obviously be by yourself.
You have to be with a full-timeofficer.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Dude, they have reserve PD in Gonzales.
Yes, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (13:03):
a small town.
It is a small town and, like Isaid, they had several, so I
ended up getting hired there andthen I ended up enrolling into
the police academy, so I wasgoing to end up paying for it
Right.
During that time, obviously, Iwas working as a reserve in
Gonzalez.
Okay, the chief at that timebasically told me that they

(13:24):
would supply me with anything Ineeded.
The only thing that theycouldn't do was give me a salary
, but he told me that once Igraduated, that they would be
willing to hire me as afull-time officer in Gonzalez.
Okay, so I ended up goingthrough the academy.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Where was the academy ?

Speaker 2 (13:41):
at In Gilroy.
Gilroy, which is just northnorth, obviously, of Salinas,
right, it's off 101, just southof Morgan Hill.
Was that at a?

Speaker 1 (13:52):
college?

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yes, it's called the Gallivan Community College.
That's where the police academywas at?

Speaker 1 (13:56):
What year was this man that you went to the academy
?

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Like 89.
No way, dude, yeah, 89.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
What was it like?

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Were the sergeants yelling at you, the instructors,
you know over the years theacademy has changed a lot, but
during that time it was run, notso much military, but it was a
lot of discipline.
Obviously you have to bewell-dressed, well-groomed.
You couldn't complain.
If it was hot, you would go outand run.
If it was hot, you would go outand run.

(14:24):
We did all our PT, which is theexercise in asphalt.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
For our younger viewers out there that may not
understand this, when you sayyou couldn't complain, like what
would happen if you didcomplain during that time.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
You would have to write memos of why you're
complaining.
The way the old school was backthen was um, why are you
complaining?
Because it's hot is.
Do you think that when you gethired as a police officer and
you're out in the street thatyou know it's not going to be
hot, it's going to be worse?

Speaker 1 (14:55):
yeah, with your gear and everything else right.
So car right, so that's peopleright.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
So that was one of the things.
There's like what are youcomplaining about?
Uh, we would do, uh, push-upsin asphalt asphalt gets hot
during the summer, absolutely.
Um, and we would do it in that,in the hot asphalt, and you
couldn't complain oh, my handsare too hot or the asphalt's too
hot what was going through yourmind as you are enduring this.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Are you feeling motivated?
Are you feeling accomplished?
Both Purpose driven.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Motivated, accomplished and driven to get
where you want to go.
Perfect Because, the way youlook at it, just because you're
going to the police academy,it's not over yet.
You still got to get hired andyou still got to go through the
training program.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
And maintain your employment.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
And maintain your employment, which is the most
important.
Going through all that, allyou're doing is the academy is
to see how far they could pushyou before you break the stress
level, Because they don't wantsomeone on the street that's
going to break when they getstressed.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
They're not going to be able to think In 1989, did
the academy do a good job ofinducing stress in its
candidates?
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
Absolutely so when you would hit, you know when you
get hired, it was like okay, Ialready felt the stress, the
only stress that's different.
Now you are actually going outfor calls for service, real
calls for service, where you'regoing to either go help or take
any legal action, which is alittle bit different than the
scenarios you have in theacademy.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Right, it's real.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
It's real.

Speaker 1 (16:33):
So did you end up getting hired full time at
Gonzalez?
No, so what?

Speaker 2 (16:37):
happened was I graduated.
I went back.
Obviously, small agencies don'thave the budget, so they didn't
have it it.
So what I did is I applied tothe King City Police Department.
It's where you know, obviouslyI was.
You know I grew up at yeah andI got hired there.
King City yeah, king City,that's where I did my.
My first job as a policeofficer was King City, full-time

(17:00):
.
How many years did you do there?

Speaker 1 (17:01):
about five years.
Five years, yes.
And then, after King City, didyou go to Fresno?

Speaker 2 (17:06):
And then, after King City, I went to Fresno.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
yes, Okay, so let's talk about King City PD.
Man, you're a cop now.
What year is this in?

Speaker 2 (17:15):
King.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
City 91.
1991.
There's no cell phones.
Did people have pagers or noPagers?
Yes, Okay did people havepagers or no?

Speaker 2 (17:27):
uh pagers, yes, okay, uh did you guys have a computer
monitor in your car.
No, it's all uh radio, allradio, radio, radio traffic,
which means you have a radio inthe patrol car.
You carry a portable radio.
There were no computers at all.

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Was uh quality of the radio not good or good.
It was good, it was goodquality radio, good quality no
issues with communicating.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
No issues with communications, though, perfect,
but you learn how to use aradio property.
And no mapping systems likenowadays there's mapping systems
.
Everything was you learn thestreets, memorize them, and if
you had to go to the county, youhad to memorize the roads, or
you would carry, uh, the thomasguide map books to know where
you're going.

(18:02):
Where did you?

Speaker 1 (18:03):
acquire those thomas guides map books?
Did you where you're going?
Where did you acquire thoseThomas Guide map books?
Did you have to pay out?

Speaker 2 (18:07):
of pocket, or were they supplied, I would buy them.
No, I bought them, I buy my own.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Was that something that the majority of police
officers were doing?

Speaker 2 (18:14):
Yes, the majority.
Some didn't.
You know, some of them knew thearea real well, so they didn't
need it.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
So they didn't, they didn't need it.
What are some?

Speaker 2 (18:35):
techniques or lessons or applications that maybe the
newer police officers are notutilizing today, that you guys
were using back then, that yourlives depended on it.
I think a lot of it has to dowith the computer, the geography
, so a lot of like the new techthat's.
You know, nowadays it's alltechnology.
So when they get dispatched toa call, the computer obviously
gives it to you and it gives youthe route.
Uh, mapping system in thecomputers, um, they're great.
But, uh, what happens if that'sall you learn?

(18:57):
Right?
So what happens when thecomputer goes down?
If you don't know this, if youdon't know your streets or you
don't have a street guide, whereare you going to go?
Or you don't know this.
If you don't know your streetsor you don't have a street guide
, where are you going to go?
Or you don't know your?
You know your block numbers,that 100 is a 200 blocks.
That's that's the mostimportant thing, I think.
Um, I don't know if that's whatthey're teaching.
Uh, without the computer.
Still, some of them I know Ihave friends that are still like

(19:19):
trainers, old school trainersthat they won't allow.
Obviously the recruits use themapping system.
They have to memorize Well,that's good Either by map or use
a guide.
We used to get a street guide.
So, basically, if you learnedthe major streets, then the
smaller streets.
With the street guide you wouldknow where they're at.
Okay, based on the majorstreets.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
To me it kind of reminds me of like in in the
past we had to remembertelephone numbers by memory,
right, and then now that we gotcell phones, I couldn't tell you
anybody's number because it'sall in the cell phone, right,
yeah, and it's true, that's you.

Speaker 2 (19:53):
You lose that, you lose the, the memory, because
you're now you're dealing withtechnology what about policing
101?

Speaker 1 (20:00):
getting out into the community and using your
communication skills.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Obviously, that's huge.
When I started, if you had nocommunication skills, you were
going to have major problems,because then you don't know how
to speak to obviously not onlythe citizens, but also people
that aren't distraught, Whateverit might be.
They're suspects, victims orwhatever they might be.
If you're unable to communicatewith them, you have major
problems.
That was one of the things thatwe learned a lot you have to be

(20:28):
a good communicator in order tobe able to deescalate.
You know heated situations.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
Because you know you're going to cause where
obviously some of the peoplewere like way older than you
were and you have had commandpresence Dude that you're in
charge and you had to be able toshow that by being able to
communicate I like that.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
you said that, bro, because you're that.
A lot of law enforcementofficers start at the age of 21
and even for myself, at the ageof 22.
It was a weird feeling.
I have to tell-year-oldhardened convict what to do,
right, or it's not a goodfreaking feeling, right?

Speaker 2 (21:08):
And obviously, some of the lessons that I learned
right off the get-go from notonly from my parents, but also
from you know, like veteranofficers one you treat everybody
with respect, regardless.
You treat them like humanbeings and remember nothing is
personal in this business.
It's your job and you're doingyour job, that's it.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Earlier you mentioned the term command presence.
Explain to the crowd what iscommand presence.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Command presence is when you actually show up to a
call, whether it's a heated call, a call that you need to be
there, just by being thereuniform, and the way you
communicate with the crowd orthe individuals, they stop what
they're doing and they listenand they pay attention of what
you're going to tell them andthey listen to your orders.

(21:53):
That's the most important thing.
That's command presence thereand it lacks nowadays it does.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
It does lack nowadays , and some of the things we see
are timidness, unsureness.
What do you think that stemsfrom?
Do you think that stems from agenerational thing?
Maybe not knowing the policy orthe law where they're
conflicted?

Speaker 2 (22:15):
No, I think it's all technology nowadays.
True, you have a lot of,obviously, you have a lot of
cell phones texting.
You have all these apps.
Everybody communicates that way.
Instead of actually callingsomeone or talking to someone in
person, they send you a textmessage, which is easier.
Yeah, but it's that takes avaluable uh skill, people skills

(22:37):
it is not applicable in reallife right scenarios that's and
that's.
I think that's the biggest thing.
Um, a lot of them, uh, do their.
Obviously, one of the biggestthings is that, the
communication skills.
The other one is writing skills.
Writing skills are lacking andit's because we use computers to
type or write and the computercorrects your misspells or your

(23:00):
misspellings.
It gives you options on how towrite or your misspellings.
It gives you options on how towrite.
I know there's programs outthere nowadays that they're
using where they want to write apaper and they give it the
parameters and they hit a buttonand it writes the paper for you
.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
I use that all the time in what I do now Chat GPT.
It works like a charm, but Iprobably wouldn't use that in
law enforcement.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
So what happens is they use that a lot and then
when they come out and obviouslythey go through the process of
being hired, their writingskills and communication skills
are poor and I see that as abackground investigator, I'll
see that those two skills arelacking.

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Oh, because you do do background investigator now
stuff.
So we'll get to that, bro.
So you definitely know whatyou're talking about For sure.
100% Command presence.
Yeah, did you encounter anysituations in the beginning that
kind of like shocked you oreye-opener?

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, it's you always .
I think the biggest things arewhen you have to deal with kids.
Ooh, golly.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
That's the hard part.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
You know, dealing with kids, either you know being
abused or neglected.
That was always hard.
It's like man it's, but that'sthe job.
You have to, and and it's youalways have to say OK, it's not
a personal thing, it's just myjob, this is a call.
I have to handle this, but thatwas the toughest I think
dealing with, obviously withchildren, that was that was the
hardest.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Let me go back to the original question.
Would you agree in thisstatement that, even though the
generation of police officershave changed, and with their
youth, what about the gangmembers and the gangsters?
Are they just as dangerous anddeadly as they were in the past?

Speaker 2 (24:41):
Oh, absolutely 100% yes, and I think they're more
armed nowadays than back then.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, they are, bro, Absolutely With the equipment
that you guys had back then.
Did you feel that it was enoughto perform your duties?

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yes, back then, yes, back then.
Did you feel that it was enoughto perform your duties?
Yes, back then, yes.
And then we went through atransition where that equipment
was not no longer working, whichmeant that we needed to get
obviously, everybody you know inin the criminal world.
They, they're better armed, soyou had to be, you know.
Obviously you had to get yourpatrol rifles, the assault
rifles, so that's something thatwe never carried.
The North Hollywood shootingyeah, I think that did it.

(25:18):
And also the Columbine with theschool.
I think that did it where it'slike we need more than just a
regular shotgun and obviously, ahandgun.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
During that time frame, did you enjoy what you
were doing?

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Absolutely.
I enjoyed it 100%, always,because that's what I've always
wanted to do, so I enjoyed goingto work.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
What did you get the most satisfaction out of?
Catching bad people or helpinggood people Helping, helping.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
Helping, helping people.
I think that's the mostsatisfaction you get.
You're able to help someone.
Obviously, yeah, you arrestcertain people, but I think the
best satisfaction you ever haveis you help someone, especially
medical calls, because as apolice officer working in King
City, we had to go to medicalcalls, you know, just like the

(26:09):
fire department.
And I could tell you.
I went to several where youknow, obviously you had people
having heart attacks orlife-threatening, and you're the
first one there, so you have tobe able to perform CPR.
That's what you need to do totry to help this person survive.
Wow.
So to me, helping people wasthe best satisfaction I could
get.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
After your five years you go over to Fresno did you
want to do that, or yes, uh.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
So basically, um, you know, obviously I wanted to
just get out of the area.
I mean, I grew up in king city,I had been there, uh, almost
all my life and I was looking tomove on from a small agency to
a bigger agency.
You know, you put outapplications, uh, different
areas, and, um, I put in one forFresno and Clovis, I put in one

(27:01):
for Phoenix, phoenix, arizona.
Yeah, I put in for Phoenix.
I got a job offer in Phoenixbut I didn't take it because
obviously my wife at that timedidn't want to move.
So I kind of told them that Irecanted, waived, and then I got
hired with fresno, nice, andthat's then we ended up moving
to fresno what was thedifference between king's police

(27:25):
department and fresno like?

Speaker 1 (27:27):
did the building look different on the inside?
Was it more modern?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
no, I mean, uh, obviously king city had a small
agency, uh, small department, uh, and when I went to fresno,
it's obviously a bigger building, it's an older building but
it's obviously a lot more bigger.
Fresno was, I could tell you,is like 100 times bigger than
King City 100 times bigger.
So I went from a population oflike 10,000 to 15,000 to a
population of 400,000.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
How many sworn officers would you say were in
King City?
We had 16.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
Okay, it kind of reminds me I'm from Brawley,
California, which is a verysmall place, small agency, I
mean that's all you have, that'sall you have, and now you're
going.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
how many sworn officers would you say that
Fresno PD had?

Speaker 2 (28:07):
At the time when I went there, they had I think it
was like 800 at that time.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
So from 16 to 800, was that a culture shock to?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
you?
Not really.
I knew it was a biggerdepartment, but I look at it as
okay.
It's a bigger department.
Yeah, more calls for service,but the calls are the same oh
wow, the calls are the same.
Yeah, they're going to be thesame.
You know it's just going to bein a more massive calls.
You're going to have a lot morecalls for service.
What?

Speaker 1 (28:33):
are some calls for service, bro, that a police
officer will get throughout acareer?

Speaker 2 (28:38):
So you go to, like, domestic violence, child abuse
cases.
You'll go to rape cases, sexualassault, or you go to homicides
where you know obviouslysomebody's been shot.
You just have to, you knowobviously secure the scene.
It's a little bit different.
You come from a small agency tothe bigger agency and then you
have all the gang stuff the samething just at a bigger scale,

(28:58):
but the cult yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Suicides.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Suicides.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Shots fired, drive-by shootings yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
The same thing, but just at a bigger scale.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
Bigger scale.
But does it get turned up?
Does it get more violent?
Or it's just the same exact, orit can all vary.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
It varies.
Just the same exact or it canall vary, it varies.
So when I worked king city, Iworked, you know, gangs, I
worked narcotics there.
Uh, the gangs, you know, theyshot at each other, they did
drive-bys yeah you know I workeda few homicides when I was
there.
Um, now you transfer to fresno.
Obviously it's a little bitdifferent, the politics are
different.
So as a patrol officer, you gofor calls for service and if
it's like a shooting or assaultwith a deadly weapon or even,

(29:37):
you know, obviously, a homicide,we just secure the scene and
you're calling the detective.
So the detectives take thatportion of it.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
I can only assume that you are not witnessing
violence prior to becoming apolice officer.
I can only assume right, butdid you start to see violence
more and more as you continuedyour employment?

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Oh, absolutely.
It just got a little bit moreviolent and more violent.
Yes, obviously you get tried tobe assaulted.
More People would not obeyorders, so they would want to
fight you a lot more.
So I saw that a little bit morewhen I went to Fresno than I
did in King City.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
Looking back in hindsight, with everything you
know now and all yourexperiences, do you believe that
you changed as a person as aresult of being introduced to
violence?

Speaker 2 (30:26):
A little bit, yes, you become desensitized to it,
so it's like, okay, it's justanother call, and that's bad,
because sometimes, when thathappens, you gotta understand,
you gotta leave your workproblems at work, you can't take
them home.
You take them home, then you'regonna have major problems do?

Speaker 1 (30:42):
cops have major problems absolutely yes, I mean.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
That's why cops get divorced a lot, because they
take their problems from workhome and then your home problems
to work.
You can't do that.
You have to be able to separatethem.
Is it impossible to separatethem?
It's not impossible, but it'sit's possible it's possible, is
it?
hard to separate them sometimes,but you gotta, you gotta.
You just have to instill inyourself that why am I going to

(31:06):
take my problems from home towork?
It's just going to affect me atwork, right where you may not
be thinking and you could easilyget hurt.
And then you take your yourproblems from home, which have
nothing to do with your homelife.
So I had to learn very quicklyto separate them and I was
fortunate enough to be able todo it?

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Were you using any techniques?
Were you exercising?
Were you reading?
Were you just muscling throughseparation?

Speaker 2 (31:30):
No, it's everything.
You have to exercise.
You have to obviously take alittle bit of time to kind of
de-escalate yourself when you'rehome.
I like that Kind of separate.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
A decompression period.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yes, you have to do it.
Obviously, my wife knew what Iwas, you know, she always knew
that I want to be a policeofficer.
There were things that when Icame, you know, know as a street
cop, you do talk to them aboutwhen you're, you know, basic
uniform service yeah, but I wentto narcotics and fresno I, I
wouldn't tell her anything I cuttight lip.

(32:02):
I wouldn't because I didn't wanther, like you know obviously to
you know, to get worried andnot stressing out when I'm going
to work.
So there was a lot of things Inever shared with her until
after I retired, and then Ishared a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
How long did you work in Fresno before you got
introduced to the narcotic?

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Okay.
So what happened was when Icame to Fresno I must have had
like maybe four months Okay,four months on I was still on
probation period and then whathappened was they were creating
a gang unit.
So where they were going to putin, you know, put in the
sheriff's office, the Fresno PDand all allied agencies in

(32:42):
Fresno County with obviously thefederal government, dea, the
FBI, atf they were creating agang unit called MAGIC, which is
a multi-agency consortium,agency consortium, and they were
requesting officers withexperience to submit a memo

(33:07):
interview for the positions.
And obviously I had prior lawenforcement experience and I had
experience in, you know,obviously, gangs writing search
warrants, doing undercoveroperations from King City when I
was doing it.
So I ended up submitting a memoeven though I was on probation.
I got selected Awesome.
So I'm brand new at Fresno.
And then I get obviouslyassigned to the gang unit.

(33:28):
But now there's two parts to it.
So you have what they call themetro unit, which is the city,
and then you have a county whichis all county allied.
I'm a brand new police officer,get assigned to the sheriff's
office, to the county team.
And then I get assigned to theplainclothes team just because
of my experience.
So now I'm brand new Fresno.

(33:49):
Now I go to the sheriff'soffice and I stay at the
sheriff's office for about sixand a half years.
So everything that I'm doing,I'm doing with the sheriff's
office for about six and a halfyears.
So everything that I'm doing,I'm doing, uh, with the
sheriff's office do you evenbother to go back to the fresno
police station?
no, because our office is awayfrom the, you know, the
sheriff's headquarters and thepolice headquarters.
We have our own office.
You guys had your own office.
Yes, we had our own office.

(34:10):
So that's what we were likesecret?
No, it wasn't secret, it was.
It was.
Uh, we started off downtownFresno in a building and then
eventually got moved after Ileft.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Did it look any different in there versus the
regular police station?
Like I would imagine, like ahideout, like a goon hideout,
like punching bag weight bench.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
So our unit where we were at at Magic, you know where
we were at the gang unit, itwas just like offices just like
this.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
Oh, just offices.
Yeah, that was it Desk okay.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
It had nothing to do with you know.
They didn't say, you know,police or anything like that.
It was just the building, emptybuilding, you know, with
nothing on it.
Cubicles we had cubicles inthere.
Computers, computers, landlinephones machines.

(34:59):
Yes, dang man.
Um, wow, a parking garage.
A parking?
No, we parked in the back wehad a back parking lot.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
It wasn't even gated.
So one of the questions thatjust I just dawned on me when
you were talking about, uh,report writing, I was going to
ask you at that point in timedid you have to appear in court
a lot of times?
Yes, so how important is reportwriting in law enforcement?
The key.
The better you write reports,the least amount of time you

(35:24):
spend on the standing court.
I like that man.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
So if you write good, detailed reports, your job is
not to go to court.
It's so it could get.
Obviously, the court systemtakes care of itself, nice, and
people plea out, and that's whatyou want.
You don't want to go up in thestand, and you know.
Obviously, go up and testify.
The least you do it, the better.
Nice, and it's based on yourwriting.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
I like that dude.
So here you have all thisexperience, bro, writing search
warrants.
You're on probation.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
You're on insurance, you're on probation, you're
working.
Is it a sheriff?
Is the sheriff like theheadquarter?
Is the police department?
So the lieutenant from thepolice department was in charge
of the metro units, the metropart of Magic, which was within
the city limits, and then youhad a SO lieutenant was in
charge of all the county andthat's the way it was.

(36:27):
And then it started off withthe district attorney being
obviously head of Magic.
They were in charge.
It changed after the first yearand instead of being the DA's
office, they put a highwaypatrol captain in there.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Wow, dude, so crazy.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
And so there was no.
You know, obviously politics,big politics, conflict of
interest, conflict.
So they put the highway patroland the captain did an excellent
job.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
He ran that unit smooth was magic, something that
was used in other major citiesas well, because I've heard of
magic teams before yeah, it's,it's all fresno county based.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
It's all, it's just fresno county.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
The magic units fresno county but I think I've
heard of like maybe la had amagic team.
Uh, no la, I think had crashcrash.
Yeah, they had, yeah, they theyhad other units over there.
Okay, so Magic was Fresno.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, it was just all Fresno.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Earlier, when we first started, you said you
regretted not promoting Duringthis period in time.
You said you had lieutenants.
Did it ever cross your mindlike, oh, I want to be one of
those lieutenants of this team.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
It did cross my mind, but I enjoyed what I was doing.
So it kind of it just kind ofwould go away.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
But I do regret that not being able to promote I
think that's what why somepeople don't promote and why I
didn't promote for a long timeis because you're actually
enjoying what you're doing atthat level.
Yes, and you want to learn thatlevel, you want to master that
level.

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Right, yeah, that's true and that's probably what
happened to me.
And then, obviously, you knowyou go through your career and
you're like, oh man, I need toit went by fast.
Yeah, you want to.
You know, obviously, you wantto.
You should have.
You know, we're like regrets,Like that's the only thing I
regret is not promoting.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
So are you meeting new people for your first time,
like these sheriff deputies?

Speaker 2 (38:08):
A lot of them.
Yes, Like the younger ones, yes.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Okay, do you guys have to start from ground zero,
from scratch?
Like, hey, let's pick a targetand let's start working a case
around it.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
You know that portion .
I'm not involved anymore justbecause I retired, but when we
were obviously when I wasworking and assigned to Magic,
that's the way we would do.
We would pick targets and thenwe would start working that
target.
Like for us, in the unit I wasin, it was all plain clothes.
So we would target gang membersthat were selling drugs,
firearms, and that's what wewould do.

(38:40):
We would go in there and buyfirearms or drugs from them.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Were these well-known gang members?
Yes, well-known to who?
To everybody.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, I mean they were part of the Fresno Bulldogs
.
We dealt with the black gangs,we dealt with the Mexican gangs
in, you know, the North Angles,surangos.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
What were some of the black gangs Crips?

Speaker 2 (39:00):
No, they were like just the Strother Boys and some
of those guys from you know,from the west side of Fresno,
okay, the Posse, but we kind ofmore dealt like we were
specifically just targeted, likethe Bulldogs, those were the

(39:21):
ones that we really targeted.
Were some bulldog suspects moredangerous than others, I would
say some, but they were all thesame.
I mean they're all dangerous.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
You guys treated them all the same, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Just because they were from a different set or
they were from somewhere else,it didn't mean that they weren't
violent.
They could be just as violentas anybody.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
Now, what year is this happening?
You're in the Magic team.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
I was in Magic from 1997 to 2003.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
1997, man Probably still no cell phones either.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Were they coming on board?
They were coming on board, butit was more pagers, so that was
it.
And then go to the payphone orgo to one of the call boxes that
you know throughout the city tomake calls, and that's it.

Speaker 1 (40:05):
Would you utilize payphones back then?

Speaker 2 (40:07):
Yeah, if we couldn't get to a phone then, yeah, we'd
go to payphone and call.
We had to, but we did havepagers.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
We go to pay for it and call.
We had to, but we did havepagers.
How big was your team?
How big would a team asurveillance team or a by team
be?
Of how many people?

Speaker 2 (40:22):
The team I was in, we had 10 people and that was our
team.
So we did we would do theundercover by, we would do the
surveillance.
It was 10 people Did everybodyhave the roles.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yes, everybody has roles.
What are some of the roles, Ifyou can talk about it?

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Does somebody sit in the lookout van or something.
So we had, you know, obviously,someone that monitors whatever
you have the recording device.
Then you have people that aresurveillance.
They're watching to make sureeverything's, and then
somebody's watching whoever theundercover is making sure that
they're monitoring to make surethat he's okay, that there's no
stress, there's no help neededand everybody has their

(41:00):
assignments.
And before we leave, or afterthe briefings, before we left,
we made sure everybodyunderstood what the rule was.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
It seems to me like a lot of things can go bad in an
operation, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
The worst thing is no communication.
They go down and it happens.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
What would that scenario look like, when your
freaking communications go down?
You're in the middle ofsomething.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
You can't hear.
Something went dead or theradios are just not working for
some reason.
So back then obviously we don'thave cell phones we had a pager
, so somebody would have to pagehim with a code.
We would always have differentcodes and if he got that
specific code, that meant thathe had to get out.

(41:45):
No matter what he was doing, hehad to leave.
Did that ever happen?
A couple of times, and theywould do exactly what we told
them they would just get up andleave.
Oh, so you guys had contingencyplans?

Speaker 1 (41:54):
yes, absolutely hey, if, if uh comms goes down this
is what we're gonna do.
Right, this is what you'regonna do.
Yes, how important iscontingency plans.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
You have to have one and you have to have multiple.
You just can't go with one.
We always did it.
Um, obviously imagine it washarder just because we had no
cell phones.
But later, when cell phoneswere in play and obviously we
had the operations when I wasworking narcotics, it was a lot
easier.
So, but yes, we had you have tohave contingency plans.
Contingency plans from theminute you start the operation.

(42:25):
If something happened, rightoff the get-go shots fired.
We all had a plan of where weneeded to do, where we would
have to do, and then we wouldstart calling everybody, make
sure everybody was okay.
But yes, you would have to dothat.
Locations if for some reasonyou picked a location and
operation, they didn't like it.

(42:45):
You have to have at least twoother locations that you
controlled Nice.
So they didn't like that whenyou would move them to another
location where you wanted themto go.
So you had to have all that.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
So, while it is dangerous and there's a lot of
room for error, there's alsoroom for mitigating those, those
, those errors.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Right, but if you don't talk about it or you or
you don't train for it, yes,then you are going to have major
problems.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
No, bro, I can tell you definitely have a lot of
experience.
Dude, it's awesome.
It's almost like a blast fromthe past, because I was telling
you earlier that I feel that lawenforcement as a whole has
gotten away from this basicone-on-one survival.
Yeah, what would be supplied toyou for an operation?

(43:31):
Would a gun be supplied to youby the law enforcement agency?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Oh, absolutely.
When you get hired as a policeofficer, obviously the police
department issues you a dutyweapon.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
But I'm talking about for a fake buy.
Would they give you like a fakear-15 or a replica no fake dope
or real dope so okay.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
So you're asking like say uh, a prop, like a prop, no
, so let's so.
Operations like say like let'sjust say, in narcotics we were
posing as buyers of drugs.
So we met someone, or we gotintroduced to someone that was a
supplier, say, of meth orcocaine.

(44:11):
So then we would meet with them, have a conversation, tell them
that I was looking for hisproduct.
Then obviously we would engagein telling them that we had
obviously the money, that youknow that we had the money to
purchase the drugs.
So we would actually show themthat money.

(44:32):
But in a tactical way weweren't just going to tell them,
hey, we're going to show youthe money right now.
No, we would, you know,obviously do the conversation.
Then we would pull him and thenwe would show it to him in a
tactical way.
Show him actual money.
We never used fake money, it'salways real money.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
Did these guys, the suspects, did they fit the
profile, Meaning like bald headtattoos, gangster looking?
Oh yeah, or were you surprisedever?

Speaker 2 (44:58):
Well, when you deal with gangs, then you know you're
dealing with gang members.
When you're dealing with,obviously in the dope world,
everybody's involved.
It could be a gang member, itcould be a businessman.
So we had everybody.
We had gang members that weredealing what we wanted or they
were in the mix, they wereinvolved.

(45:19):
And then we had people that hadbusinesses, that actually had
businesses, but they wereinvolved as a side business.
They were, you know, obviouslytrafficking, dope, what did that
look like?

Speaker 1 (45:30):
Because I always hear about what do they call those?
Oh, that restaurant's a front,that laundromat's a front.
What did that look like?

Speaker 2 (45:37):
So basically they actually have businesses that
they run, but on the side theyhave obviously they're involved
in drug trafficking orlaundering money.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
What do they?
Did they look like in themovies?
Like they got a back room wherethey call you in the back no,
no, they don't have that.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
A lot of the times when you met, like someone that
had a business or involved inthat, you would be with them,
away from even their businesses,okay.
So you would have to be able totrack idm of who this person is
, and obviously there's a lot ofdifferent techniques you could
do that, you know, fromsurveillance to tracking people.
So that's that's how we idpeople.
Did you enjoy the surveillancepart of the job?
Yes, why is that?
Because it's um one um,obviously it's.
It's difficult, uh, to followpeople, but it's a skill you

(46:20):
could develop and the better youare at it, the better, uh, your
surveillances go.
So it's like a cat and mouse.
That's that's the way we lookedat it.
So it's like a.
We want to make sure that we'reable to obviously follow the
person without them knowing thatwe're following them.
And the better you get at it,the more you train, you develop
that skill where they could takeyou anywhere and still you'll

(46:44):
be fine, you'll get what youwant.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
But I feel like there had to have been times where
they spotted that they had atail on them.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Oh, obviously.
So I mean there's times that weobviously we got burned.
There were times that you guysgot burned yes, there were times
, yeah, but there's, it's justit happens but was it like an
explosive situation or?

Speaker 1 (47:04):
was it like everybody backs up, yeah no, usually what
?

Speaker 2 (47:07):
what happens is when we know that we're, uh, that you
, obviously they know thatyou're following them we would
see like little things that theywould do.
A lot of the times what theywould do is they were doing
circles, or if you see a phoneflying out of the window, you
knew that it's like okay, that'sit, we're done.
So they knew.

Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah, I always heard that you got to make four left
turns to see if somebody'sfollowing you.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
No, that's not true.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Well, I mean, why else would somebody make four
left turns?
You know yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
No, I understand what that is.
There's a lot of people saythat they do like oh, I do
counter stuff.
But no, Is there counter stuff?
Yes, I mean, there's peoplethat drive like that.
They think in their mind it'slike, hey, if I drive like, do
four or five, whatever turns,I'm going to know whether people
are following.
But you just never know.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
So during this time frame, man, did the gang members
ever have any of theircounter-surveillance or anything
that they were doing to watchyou guys?
No, you know what Track youguys.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
No, I remember.
I mean, there was no like whenwe were working gangs and
obviously buying firearms ordrugs from them.
There was no counter stuff thatthey would do.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
That's so weird I think there was more.

Speaker 2 (48:14):
They were comfortable with who you are.
So, by me saying that is, whenyou get introduced to someone,
whoever it might be, and they'reinvolved in obviously illegal
activity say, you want to buyfirearms or drugs from them if
you meet with them as someonethat you want, as a person
that's buying the stuff fromthem, you have to know what
you're talking about.

(48:35):
So you have to make them atease a lot of the times.
So it all depends on how youcommunicate with that person,
how your relationship with them,whether you build rapport with
them.
And that's one of the keys youhave to be able to build rapport
with that person as a businesspartner that, hey, you have
something I want and you havesomething that you want for me.

(48:55):
You have product and I havemoney, so how are we going to
get together as a businesstransaction?
Were you ever in that role?

Speaker 1 (49:03):
yes, you were in the role of being face to face with
a bad guy, a gang member, a drugdealer, undercover.
Yes, hey, man, I have money,you have dope you were in that
role.
Yes, bro, that's freakingsketchy, that's crazy it is, but
it's it's.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
It's dangerous, but, at the same time, if you know
what you're talking about andyou're confident, of what you're
doing.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
That leads me to my next question, bro, because not
everybody has that.
Not everybody has the gift ofgab the, the ability to move,
flow, talk, understand yourenvironment, understand the
language.
How did you adopt that?

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Naturally, by watching others.
Training, that's it.
You learn from veterandetectives that have been doing
it for a long time and you watchwhat they're doing, how they do
things, and then, obviously,your personal experience, your
interactions with people, ifyou're able to have good

(50:02):
communication skills and thebiggest thing is, if you know
what you're talking about you'rein, and a lot of the times it
has to do who introduced you to?

Speaker 1 (50:10):
them.
Okay, how does that processwork?

Speaker 2 (50:14):
So a lot of the times it could be informants, or it
could be a person that doesn'teven know that you're a police
officer, or they're informants.
It's someone that you justnaturally meet and you start
talking and they're like, hey, Iknow someone that could get you
what you want, and that's howthe operations start.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
What about raids on homes?
Yeah, search warrants, you didthem.
Yes, do they activate the SWATteam for that or they send you
guys?

Speaker 2 (50:41):
no.
So obviously, through most ofmy career, we did our own search
warrants, uh, but we did ourown tactical planning, uh.
We did our plans, our entries,assignments, who's going to
cover the back, who's's going tobe?
So it's like a big operation,it's like a SWAT operation, but
it's a little bit different.
But do you have a helmet and avest?
We have helmets, vests.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
We have everything, yes everything.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
SWAT is just completely different.
So we had what we called amatrix where we gave it numbers.
If you reached a certain levelwhere it was required to use
SWAT or call them, we would haveto call them?

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Who made this matrix?
Was it standard operatingprocedure from the law
enforcement agency or did youguys make your own matrix?

Speaker 2 (51:27):
No, the departments that make it.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
Bro, what would be something that would hey call
the freaking SWAT now?

Speaker 2 (51:32):
Well, it would have to be people with firearms.
Obviously they're armed.
Those are the violence, so wewould use them, because that's
what they train for Right?
Even though we were skilledenough to do search warrants, we
had to use SWAT.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
When you would enter these homes on search warrants.
What were some of the thingsyou've seen in there?
Was it filthy?
Was there dope everywhere?
Were there guns under the couch, like in the movies?

Speaker 2 (52:00):
No, I mean, it's just like a normal house.
Some houses were dirty, cleanfirearms.
We found them, you know, in thebedroom or in the closet.
It was rare when you sawsomeone actually be armed on
them in the house.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Did you ever find drugs in the toilet where they
attempted to flush and theydidn't get to it?

Speaker 2 (52:19):
um no, we never.
We found, uh, drugs inside thetank in a bag, okay, you know
that kind of stuff, but flush noin the attic.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
So would you guys ever find?
Did you ever come across largebus like like bundles?

Speaker 2 (52:33):
oh, absolutely.
That's what we did in majornarcotics at fresno.
We were dealing with pounddealers or kilo dealers no way,
dude.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Yes, so you weren't dealing with the nickel and dime
at the park.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Hey, homie, let me get a, that's what we did at
magic, you know, with the gangstuff okay, oh wow.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
So so that magic is different than the narcotics?
Yes, absolutely so.
In major.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
When I went to majors uh, the narcotics unit we dealt
with pounds and kilos did yougo to majors after magic?
Yes, straight straight.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
Yes, I put in for it and got moved over I'm sure you
got recommended by yoursupervisors, your peers, uh
little story.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
Uh.
So, um, when I was putting infor my major narcotics, I put in
three different times.
The first two times I wouldalways be number one in the
interviews but I would never getselected.
And it was because they're likeoh, we thought you were a
deputy Because I was at thesheriff's side, and it's like no
, I'm a PDO.
And then it says we don't haveany reports that you've ever

(53:32):
written, so we don't know howyou write.
And I tell them, tell them,well, that's because I'm
assigned to the sheriff's office.
Everything's at the sheriff'soffice, right?
So the last time I put in forit, um, I pretty much says, if I
don't get selected, this willbe the last time I put in for it
.
And obviously they at leastthey got to see me go through a
few times so they knew who I was.
So when I got selected, it was,you know, I got, got moved over

(53:52):
so this?

Speaker 1 (53:54):
it sounds like a competitive process.
How many people are putting infor it, and is it only one slot?

Speaker 2 (54:00):
So when I went it was one slot and if I recall, there
was, I think, like 10 differentpeople that put in for it.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Dude, and you got picked both for Magic and for
the other one.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
No, the Magic one.
There was a lot of officersthat put in for that.
I just don't know how many?

Speaker 1 (54:21):
It was just everybody put in for that.
Okay, bro.
So now this what is it calledmajors?
Yeah, they're called majors.
Yeah, is this a differentbuilding than your magic
building?
Yes, and does this buildinglook any different?
It's all the same no, it'sdifferent.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
It's just like a just a business park with the
building.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
That's it now are you ?
Is this when you got sworn inas a federal agent?

Speaker 2 (54:37):
No, when we would do federal cases with the federal
government, like say with DEA,then if it was going to be like
a long-term thing, then yeah,they would deputize us Just
because they had avenues fromout of state.
We had several cases that wentfrom California to other states.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
When you went from a regular police officer in Fresno
to MAGIC, did you see peoplethat you recognized, like your
partners, as your friends oranybody?
Yes, you did yes.
When you went from MAGIC tomajors, did you see people that
you recognized?

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Where were they from?
From the sheriff's or from thePD?

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Just PD and from the sheriff's, or from the pd, just
pd and and from the sheriff'soffice people that I worked with
over the years.
So they obviously they knewthat I was over at a narcotics.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
So now at any time.
Did magic and majors ever worktogether when you were in magic?
No, it's two separate things.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Two separate things?
Yeah, they, we would.
The only time we would everhelp uh, majors, or or even the
sheriff's side, is if theyneeded bodies for search
warrants and their operations.
I recall we helped them acouple of times, but that was it
.
Justice of warrants, that's it.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Bro, there's so many moving parts.
It's like an octopus.
You would think call cops arethe same, but it's not.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
There's so many different task forces.
It's completely different, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
Who are your target suspects in majors?

Speaker 2 (56:02):
Anybody that's dealing narcotics or trafficking
narcotics in pounds or kiloquantities.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
So I would imagine you're going one step up from
your local gangbanger at thepark.
I'm imagining you're going upthe chain.
Yeah, we're going up, we'regoing up to like the suppliers,
that's what we're going one stepup from your local gangbanger
at the park.
I imagine you're going up thechain.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Yeah, we're going up to like the suppliers.
That's what we're going for.
We're going for people that areactually the bigger fish, what
they call.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
And now, right off the top of your head with all
your experience how many levelsare there to that drug ladder?

Speaker 2 (56:29):
It depends.
I mean, sometimes we would meet, obviously we would meet people
at the lower end.
But Sometimes we would meet,obviously we would meet people
at the lower end but they weretrusted enough to where they
would be able to get, you know,two, three, four pounds,
sometimes five or two or threekilos.
For somebody to be trusted tothat point they would have to be
connected to someone.

Speaker 1 (56:47):
And you're talking about the lower level.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Yeah, the lower level .
And then you know, there wastimes where we would get someone
in the mid-level where theywould have a lot more.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
You know you're talking about 20 30 pounds, 20,
10, 20, 30 kilos that's a littlebit bigger.
So everything I would say isbased on trust based on trust.
Yes in their world, in theirworld.
Trust.
Hey, I trust you.
You're a good person, or a goodperson, you?
You're trustworthy.
You can here's more money hereor here's more money or here's
more dope.
Yes, in the grand scheme ofthings, if I have a cartel
member in Mexico, he's way uphere.

(57:26):
How many levels down is theseguys?

Speaker 2 (57:29):
he could have 10, 15, 20.
It all depends in between, inbetween, yeah if you look at the
heads, it's like they treat italmost like a business.
It is a business, you know theCEO, and then you have all your
workers, all your supervisors,and then you have all your
low-level employees.
That's the way it is.

(57:49):
It's a business.
It's hard to touch someone atthat level unless you are, you
know, obviously in the federalgovernment and you know you
really directed into that.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Yeah, there's levels to the game, but this is very
interesting for me to hear, bro,Because we watch the movies.
You know Sicario and we see thestuff.
I mean, that's the only thing Ican compare it to Right.
Are these people that you'redealing with in majors?
Are they more up kept?
Are they wearing suits or they?

Speaker 2 (58:18):
you know they're just .
It could be someone as simpleas you know dress the way you
are, the way I am.
To somebody showing up in a ina suit, which we dealt with, I
could tell you I dealt with oneperson like that, where the
person would always show up in abusiness suit, but that was his
way of dressing, right, it hadnothing to do with whether he

(58:41):
was a business or anything likethat, that's just the way he
dressed, which was kind of odd.
What was the majority of therace?
A lot of Hispanics, mexicanNationals.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
But there were other races.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
There were times where you dealt with.
We dealt with one white,individual white guy which was
very surprising because he wasable to get large quantities of
dope and he was tied to ourMexican guys, which was kind of
interesting.

Speaker 1 (59:08):
What made?

Speaker 2 (59:08):
it interesting the fact that he was white.
The interesting thing is thathe was white but he knew some of
the higher ranked members ofwhatever organizations they were
in that he knew who they wereand he had the ability to call
them in Mexico, which was kindof interesting El Magico Not to

(59:29):
that point, but it was otherpeople that were probably
connected in that chain, but notthat high.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
So dope is coming from mexico, right?
I doubt it's coming from canada, or was it coming from canada?

Speaker 2 (59:42):
well, obviously the borders are huge, uh, obviously
everything comes from, you know,through the, obviously through
mexico, but there's a lot ofstuff that comes through canada.
There is, um, we had uh casesthat we worked on, uh, that a
lot of pills were coming fromcanada, uh, and they were
working the pill cases that weworked on that a lot of pills
were coming from Canada and theywere working the pill cases
that you know because they comethat way.
Obviously there's still drugsthat come to Canada.
They come one way or another.

(01:00:04):
They're coming here, but themajority comes from Mexico.
Yes, obviously.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
As it gets trafficked from Mexico.
Is it from your knowledge andexperience?
Is there a certain corridorthat it hits all the way up
north?
I mean, is this dope going tohit LA before it hits Fresno?

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Yes, a lot of the times, like it depends.
Everybody has their ownhighways, what they call, so
different organizations havedifferent methods.
So a lot of it comes through TJOtay Mesa.
Then you have the Texascorridor Okay, you know that.
So it all depends where itcomes through, tj or thai mesa.
Then you have the, the texascore line okay, you know that
that could.
So it all depends where it goesthrough arizona, the different

(01:00:41):
borders, so like, say, drugsthat come through, say through
san diego, you know tijuana,they.
If it lands obviously here thenit lands in la, uh, somewhere
in la, then it lands, uh, itcould land in fresno, and then
from fresno it could be moved toother parts.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
It's tentacles.
Is that how the cartel works,though, logistically?
Hey, we're going to send youthree.
I don't know how this works,bro.
Three kilos in one shot?

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
One kilo lands in San Diego, one kilo lands in no, no
, no, no.
They don't send like that man.
When people bring dope across,you know, like the main cartels
you're talking.
They could bring as many as 300, 400 pounds at a time.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Okay, I understand that, but they're bringing 400
pounds, but is it alwaysdesignated to drop off on the
way up north?

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
So they have the drop off points.
So whatever cargoes they'rebringing, they know where
they're going.
A cargo could be going to say,to San Diego, that cargo stays
in San Diego.
Another one could be going toLA, that stays in LA.
Another one could be going noteven San.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Francisco.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
It could be going to San Francisco or another one
could be going-.
Yeah, straight shot, it couldbe going to Washington.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
So that's a question I was asking.
It all depends I mean it's I hadno idea when they traffic and
when they're transportingnarcotics.
It's going somewhere and it'salready designated for those
areas, but it lands somewhere.
What happens is like if it'ssay they bring 400 pounds across
, they say, okay, this 400pounds are going to go to LA, so
it goes to LA.

(01:02:10):
Then it says, out of these 400,100 are going to go to Fresno,
another 100 are going to go toWashington, another 100 are
going to go to, say, texas,another 100 are going to go to
New York.
So they separate them and eachperson that's responsible to
take that takes it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Now a mule.
Yes, mules, are they low in thetotem pole?

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Yes, they're low, but they're trusted enough to
transport large amounts of dope.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
Are they lower than the?

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
drug dealer?
Absolutely.
A lot of the times they are,yes, but it's someone they trust
enough to transport that kindof quantities across.
And then those same mules thatare transporting are bringing
back money.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
Oh shit, I forgot about that.
I forgot the dope comes upnorth and the money goes down
south.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
And a lot of the times it's the same person or
they have a different personthat just picks up money.
But the ones that pick up money, obviously that's the profits.
Those people are very welltrusted.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Now, how long did it take for you to start
understanding the game?

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Pretty quickly.
Like I said, I learned it whenI was in King City.
Okay, so I saw it and then Ibrought that experience I saw a
little bit in obviously doingthe gang stuff.
Yeah, when I was in the gangs Istill helped other departments
do undercover work which youknow had to do a little bit with
weight, you know with pounds.
Yeah, and then, when I went tomajors, I really knew more or

(01:03:36):
less the game.
So, um, I hit, I hit the streetrunning, so I knew exactly what
I was doing.
So it wasn't something thatsomebody had to teach me or
train me.
It's like, hey, this is the waythings are done.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
I really knew what I was doing did you ever work in
this majors um task force with,or the sureño gangs?
Oh, in gangs, only gangs.
Uh, meaning.
My question I'm going to asknext is uh, the mexican mafia,
right, did you ever encounterthem in your operations?

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
not in in narcotics, in um, in obviously working
gangs.
We did.
We followed a couple of mexicanmafia guys and obviously nfers,
mr familia members.
They were like lieutenants.
We followed them around helpingcdc, cdcr.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
So let me ask you this is the dope gang different
than the gang game or theintermingled?

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
and they intermingle in some cases, but not all cases
.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
But not all cases, no holy bro, that's news to me,
that's news to me.
So when?

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
you were in the dope game, was it?
How often were gangsparticipate in the?
Not a whole lot.
No way, dude, because a lot ofthe gang stuff is more like
street level.
Okay, so you don't have gangsthat deal in weight or like in
pound quantities.
It was rare when we found agang member that was able to
sell you a pound or two.
If that was the case, then wewould.
Obviously they're gang members,so we would definitely go after

(01:05:07):
them too, but it was rare thatyou would have someone in gangs
dealing weight.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Now these suspects in the dope game.
Were they from Mexico?

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Some were, and some were from here, from the United
States.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Now the ones that were from here.
Did they have ties to Mexicolike family ties?

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Yes a lot of them did , so I'm starting to see a trend
here.
Basically, it almost seems likethey infiltrated the United
States and brought their gameover here.
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
Yeah, I mean, that's the game I mean you have.
The easiest way is if you havesomeone from here goes across
and then comes back, right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
No issues.
What's fucked up part of thegame as well is the consumption
of drugs by Americans.
Oh yeah, Because that's part ofthe game as well.
Right, they wouldn't have sucha high business if you know,
Americans didn't consume all thedope.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Oh yeah, I mean that's huge.
Now I mean something that I'veseen over the years in a trend
is the cost of how much a poundof, say, meth costs, to the
point where when we were dealing, when I was actually in the
game a pound of dope or methwould cost anywhere between
$5,000 and $12,000, $13,000.

Speaker 1 (01:06:34):
A pound of meth $13,000, $15,000?
.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
The highest was like $12,000 to $13,000.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
A pound of meth $13,000.
Right, okay, and how big is apound of meth?

Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Like a pound, like the size of a shoe.

Speaker 1 (01:06:43):
Yeah, it's just the size of that bottle, Okay, the
size of a pound of meth $13,000.
Right, and what were you goingto say next?
Nowadays?

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
I think it's valued at like $800, $1,000.
What the hell?
What happened?
You have a lot of it.
You have too much.
So the more you have, you haveto lower your prices.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
That's what it is Now .
Did it become?
Is there more meth?
Because you have more guys intrailers shaking bottles?

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
I think they're just transporting.
I mean they're transportingacross the borders and they're
just not.
I they're transporting acrossthe borders and they're just not
.
I mean it's just coming throughin masses, it's just way, way
too much.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
In hindsight, looking back, were you guys putting a
dent in the drug game?

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
I wouldn't say we did .
But I mean, when a lot ofthings change, politics has a
lot to do with it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Well, yeah, they're funding it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Well, not only that, but if you really think about it
, if you have at least a secureborder, it's hard stuff to come
across, but when you have itopen, you're going to have a lot
of that stuff come through.
Secure border it's hard stuffto come across, but when you
have it open, you're gonna havea lot of that stuff come through
and it's massive.
That's why it's, that's whyit's cheaper, because there's
just so much of it.
So if you want to stay inbusiness, you're going to lower
your prices.
You just get rid of it that'sthat's.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
But there's always a catch-22 to everything.
How does that do the drugcartels win or lose?
In the long run, they win, theyalways win.

Speaker 2 (01:08:10):
They're always going to win.
It's about money, it'seconomics.

Speaker 1 (01:08:14):
So it doesn't matter if they're fucking 13,000.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
The 13, like say they sell 13 pounds, say like a
thousand each, so that's 13,000.
We're just hypothetical.
Probably for them to make thatdope probably cost them like 500
dollars, true so, so they'rejust, they're making money yeah,
it's, and the further east itgoes, obviously the more money

(01:08:37):
it gets.

Speaker 1 (01:08:38):
Yeah wow bro.
So what other drugs were werereally major or prevalent in for
?

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
so when, when, when I was there, we were doing
obviously meth and ice, we weredoing heroin.
Black tar heroin, black tarheroin, yes, so those were the
major drugs.
And then obviously you had toget.
There was marijuana, obviouslythe cannabis, but I just we
hardly ever worked it.
There were people in our unitthat worked the cannabis portion

(01:09:05):
of it because they likedworking it.
I never liked working marijuana.
Why just, it was just you knowthey was everywhere.
So it's like to me, I just Ijust didn't care for it that's
okay.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
No, that makes sense.
That makes total sense.
Now, dude man, people aretrafficking pounds of meth,
right, is the meth coming fromMexico?
Yeah, what makes Mexico sospecial that they're able to
mass produce meth?

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
They get the chemicals that they need a lot
easier in Mexico, obviouslythrough other means, than they
do here in the United States.
And obviously, when I was there, you know, for you know, like
the late 90s, early 90s, 2000s,2010s, obviously we had a lot of
meth labs in the Central Valley, in that area, but you know,

(01:09:54):
obviously the units, the drugunits, put a big dent on it
because they were going afterall the labs.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
What did the labs look like?
Hotel rooms trailers no thehomes, homes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
People were doing them in homes, in ranches,
trailers, you name it, hotelrooms, not so much, but
obviously they would rentproperties and they would do
them in those rental properties.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
Were you ever getting information or knowledge of
like hey, we have this guy witha meth lab and the cartels are
not happy about him, so they'regoing to kill him.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
No, we never ran into that.
You never ran into conflicts.
Kill them no, we never ran intothat.
You never ran into conflicts.
Never ran into those conflicts.
No, Everybody was just gettingalong in the drug trade.
Well, we don't know, because wereally never got into those
conflicts.
Nobody ever told us that therewere conflicts.
I think the only conflicts thatwe ever had were more like you
know.
Obviously, when we arrestedthem, they would tell us man,

(01:10:46):
we're going to have majorproblems.
And we knew, but that's whatyou tell them.
You know that's nothingpersonal, this is just my job.

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
I forgot about the whole arrest process.
Bro, for some reason I'm overhere thinking you guys are just
buying and selling drugs.
But the whole arrest thing whatdoes that look like when you do
the cars swoop in?

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Yeah, so basically what we would do, obviously we
would do the operations, wewould have them bring the stuff
and then we would pinch themwith our cars and then we would
obviously arrest them.
A lot of them were, you know.
At least they werenon-resistant, so we were able
to take them.
Some were a little resistantand then obviously others.
We were involved in some of,obviously, shootings, and those

(01:11:25):
were minimal, which was good.
But then you change yourtactics.
You don't want to like rush thecar, and we changed that to
where we would just call themout of the car and just tell me
just come back over here.
You know, it prevents a lot ofissues so the dudes in handcuffs
?

Speaker 1 (01:11:39):
the dudes in handcuffs?
Does the undercover buyer actlike he's getting arrested as
well?

Speaker 2 (01:11:45):
um, sometimes we did, and sometimes we would just
walk away Like it's just that,it's a tactic.
We used to separate.
Okay, you want to separate fromthe actual arrest in case
something happens, becauseobviously you dealt with the
crook or with the person that'sselling.
He's a suspect, so he thinksyou're the same thing.

(01:12:06):
So when the arresting comes, ifyou're there, he thinks that
he's getting what.
So he thinks you're the samething.
So when the arresting comes, ifyou're there, he thinks that
he's getting what robbed, so hecould.
you don't want to be involved ina shooting with him because he
could say I didn't know, he wasa police officer I always
wondered I always I thought hewas trying to rip me off, so
that's why I shot I alwayswanted so you do the separation
where you're not even involved Ilike that, so it's safety, I

(01:12:27):
like that.
And then these guys would makecomments like all hell's gonna
break loose well, some, somewould tell us, you know that
they were, obviously they were,you know they were in custody.
Now they were, there was goingto be repercussions because
somebody gave them that stuff.
They're responsible for it.
So obviously they always feltthat they were going to get.
You know, either someone heardor they would have to pay for

(01:12:50):
the drugs that they lost.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
So what is the next steps from?
Let's say, I'm one of thoseguys in handcuffs.
My dope just got fuckingconfiscated, I just got arrested
.
What happens next?

Speaker 2 (01:13:01):
So what we would do is we would try.
Obviously, if you were someonethat had ties to other, then we
would ask you if you wanted towork for us as an informant,
obviously, and then we wouldobviously get the district
attorney involved to where wewould be able to sign you up in
a contract, and you had toproduce three cases, okay, and

(01:13:25):
that's how we would get intoother people.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
But this almost seems like a lose lose, lose, lose
situation for the crook or theynever do, they ever win no,
obviously if they produce, thenyou know that that takes into
consideration.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
You know for what?
Obviously they got arrested forI understand that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
But, like dude, your options if you just got caught
are to technically be a rat.
That's not going to sit well inthe eyes of your people, right,
they might do they ever getmarked for death?
Um?

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
there's a lot of people that do it.
They go back and they do thesame thing, so it's like we
never had issues.
You know, like the people thatwanted to do it, they would do
it, and there were people thatthey wouldn't do.
It says no, hell, no, therewere people that wouldn't do it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
No so would you guys be assholes and just say like
okay cool, okay cool, we'regoing to cut you loose.
No, for what?
Like the ones that didn't wantto cooperate Right, Didn't they
have to face repercussion from?

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
their yeah, but obviously they're going to go to
jail first and then they wereafter they're done.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Yeah, but what's jail ?
I mean how long?

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Well, back then we would take it.
You know, depends on the amount10, 20 years.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
No way, dude, bro.
That's serious stuff, dude,you're not messing around.
You were dealing with some veryimportant people and giving
away a lot of lengthy sentences,right?

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
And if we took it state, they could easily get
eight, 10 years too.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
What is the goal?
Is the goal to take the drugsoff the street?

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
That was our goal Take the drugs off the street
and confiscate any profits ofmoney.
That's how you hurt the cartelsis, if you confiscate their
profits.
Did you gain satisfaction fromthat?
Yes, I liked it.
I mean, it's like okay, this isthe only way you're going to be
able to hurt by taking theirprofits.
So not so much the dope.
You take the dope and it's likethey could make more.

(01:15:05):
Right, so it's just the cost ofdoing business, but when you
take the profits already, that'smoney that's actually going to
them.
That's where you heard them.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
It's cat and mouse and cops and robbers right,
that's all it is yes and youwere doing your job extremely
well, as your whole unit was,and you guys were, I would say,
making a difference because,you're right, nobody likes their
money getting taken away, right, whether it's one dollar or a
thousand dollars you're talkinga lot of money sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
How much money?
I mean?
We had seizures up to like onemillion six hundred thousand
five three hundred.
So that's how you hurt themgive.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
We know you mentioned the shootout.
What was one of the scenarioswhere the shootout transpired?

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
well, I mean, we had one where obviously I was posing
as a supplier of chemicals thatare needed to obviously
manufacture meth and thesepeople were trying to buy, you
know, 10 buckets of what we callpseudo-ephedrine pills.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
And we were.
You know, we were going backand forth negotiations the day
that we actually were involvedin that.
We were going to be involved inthe transaction.
Obviously they have the money,I have the product.
They had already seen theproduct because, like I said,
within the case we make surethat we show what we have in a
tactical way and then we don'tshow it again.
It's like, hey, you know, I havethe stuff, but I don't know if

(01:16:24):
you have the money.
So you got to show me yourmoney, stuff, right, I don't
know if you have the money.
So you got to show me yourmoney and we kind of went back
and forth.
He's, you know, he showed me abag.
He says, hey, this is, this iswhere the money is.
That it says, okay, um, justopen it so I could see it's the
money and then that's it.
I'm not gonna count it oranything like that.
This is not what we want to do.
And then we're gonna gosomewhere else.
I'm gonna give you your stuffand you're gonna give me my.

(01:16:45):
And we went back and forth fora while and they wouldn't budge.
But he says the money's there.
So it's like, eh, thenobviously they want to move to a
more isolated area.
It's like, no, we're not goingto go there unless I see your
money.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
You know, it's just like getting back and forth.
When you say isolated area, bro, are you talking about like
orchards?

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
Well, when we do these operations, it's big
parking lots, but they want tomove away from where most of the
crowd is at.
They want to be more isolated,you know, where there's not a
whole lot of people.
That's what they want.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
What is that reason?

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
One is they want to see who moves with you and the
other one.
They may be willing to rob youmore in a more secluded area,
and obviously that's one of thethings that we train for and
that we're pretty experiencedwith.
It's like, no're gonna, we'regonna do it here, after you show
me the stuff.
Hey, we'll move over there,that's what you want to do, but
that's too late, then the game'sup.
So that was one of the thingsand obviously he didn't do it.

(01:17:40):
So then they drove off the line.
I says hey, didn't see themoney, but they claimed to have
the money.
And then they try to block himin and then obviously the
shooting started.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
How many suspects were there?
Two, and they were armed Withhandguns or rifles no handguns.
Did they get shot?
Yes, Did they both get deceased?

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
One.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
One One and the other one was injured, and then the
injured one gets transported toprison.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
Well, he has to go to the hospital first, right, go
to the hospital first, and thenyou know, after you know it's a
lengthy process.
Then eventually you know hegets booked and then goes up to
prison if he has to.

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
Man, that just sounds like.
It just sounds like there's nowinning in the life of crime.
It's like I know there's nowinning in the life of crime.
There isn't.

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
Even if you're a successful drug dealer.
You know what?

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
Everybody has their day.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
You're going to be always looking over your
shoulder and you're always goingto have a target on your back,
and I've seen people that havedone it for years and years and
then eventually they get caught.
And, like I told you theearlier one where I told you
that person would always show upwith a suit, yes, so he had
been in this game for years andyears.
He told me, I think like 35years, wow, 35 years, wow, 40
years.
He was an older gentleman butalways showed up in a suit and
tie and he was one of those thatwhen, when you're in this

(01:18:53):
business, he was always early,and that's rare.
It's usually they're kind oflate because they want to see uh
, it's just the game they play,but this guy was always early
and that's the only thing thatkind of scared me, um, in a
sense that he was always early.
So, um, when we decided toexchange, um, our you know, my

(01:19:14):
product for his money, um, heobviously was early.
Uh, so I met with him, I gavehim, I told me I have all the
pseudo-affirming pills you wantin the car and he got to see it.
So I gave him my key to my carand he gave me his key to his
money because he had the moneyin his car okay, and I told him
hey, once we uh, we're done,we're gonna call each other, I'm

(01:19:36):
gonna bring back your car andyou bring me back mine.
And he, that's, that's the onlyway I got him to do the deal in
in a public place, because hewanted to obviously do it, you
know, in a hotel room and wedon't want to do that.
So I told them we'll exchangecars.
You'll be able to see myproduct that's in the car and
I'll give you my key to my car.
You could drive off, and thenyou give me your key to your car
and I'll drive off and then,after I'm done you know,

(01:20:00):
obviously, counting the moneymake sure it's all good and you
get your product.
You look at it, it's all good,there's no issues.
Then we call each other andwe'll meet and I'll give you
your car, you give me mine.
Is that what happened?
No, well, obviously we're notgonna let him drive off.
Obviously I've.
Obviously I showed him theproduct.
I gave him the key, he gave mehis because he had the money.
I gave him my key, but my keyonly opened the door.
It wasn't going to turn the caron.

(01:20:20):
Is that by design?
Yes, we didn't want to driveoff is that uh?

Speaker 1 (01:20:26):
is that a?
It's a?

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
tactical tactical vehicle?
No, it was.
It's a car that we use forundercover.
So basically, I gave him thekey that only opened the door,
but not it was not going to bein the ignition.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
What other little gadgets did you guys have?
Or cool little things?

Speaker 2 (01:20:41):
that's, that's it.
I mean, you just got to learnhow to play the game with them
right, and obviously he couldn't.
He got in the car try to startit and he couldn't.
And he knew the game was up andobviously at the end I was able
to talk to him for a little bit.
He was kind of upset.

Speaker 1 (01:20:54):
And he said at what point?

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
at what point after we, after we arrested him, we
took him to, obviously, to theoffice, to the station.
I wanted to talk to him to seeif he wanted to, obviously, you
know, work for us as aninformant and he told me no.
But, um, he says it was pretty,pretty spiffy.
He told me, uh, how we trickedhim.
He says that nobody had everdone this to him.
Um, and that's how I learnedlike 30 to 40 years.
He says that nobody has ever.

(01:21:17):
He says, yeah, have police goneafter me?

Speaker 1 (01:21:20):
yes, but nobody's ever gotten me how is it the
police have gone after him butnever gotten?

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):
I don't know, they just probably just couldn't get
him.
He just probably never showedup or he would send someone else
it just he was pretty, he waspretty smart, he wasn't.
He wasn't like, uh, you know,an average person he was, he was
in this game for a while, so heknew.
So that you know, like I said,the showing up early, I would
call him and tell him I need youto meet me here.
I mean, he was like they'reconstantly like fast, so right

(01:21:49):
now you mentioned, he wasn't.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50):
You know he was smart .
How many intelligent people didyou guys come across?

Speaker 2 (01:21:54):
uh, there was quite a bit that were, that were, that
were pretty, pretty smart theway they wanted to do things.
But the way they wanted to dothings kind of goes against what
we wanted to do.
So you had to kind of turn iton.
So, in a sense like, um, nobodylikes doing anything in public,
right, right, because you knowit's everybody could see.
So games we played, um, we wouldmeet with them and we would

(01:22:17):
tell them you know, I'minterested in buying 10 of your,
you know, pounds or whatever,and I have the money.
You know we talk.
It's like hey, you know, thisis not a first time deal, you
know that kind of stuff.
You, you talk to them aboutcontinuing business and then we
would show them, obviously ourmoney in a tactical way, and
then I tell them we're not goingto do things out here.

(01:22:37):
You know I have a business, youknow a businessman, I'm going
to take you to my business.
We could do it there, but onlyafter you know that I have my
stuff and I know you have yourstuff.
I'm just not going to take youthere and we're going to wait.
We're not going to do that.
We want to make sure we leaveand the game that I would play.
And I says, hey, I don't likedoing things in public, just
like you.
And one of the reasons is andthen we would always have a

(01:23:03):
patrol car ready and when theconversation started we would
have them just drive by where wewere at on the street and I
would always point.
I said that's why we don't doit out here, because they're
always everywhere.
So you're like, yeah, you'reright, so you have to change the
way they think to make themthink that they're going to go
to a safe place and you'reprotecting them also you're
manipulating the environment.
Right, that's freaking nuts, bro.
You have to be able to do it.

(01:23:24):
If you can't, then they're incontrol and they do all kinds of
crazy stuff that's so wild, bro, that's freaking nuts.

Speaker 1 (01:23:31):
I would have never even imagined that or thought
about that.
Fresno, how many suppliers canoperate out of there?
Is it more than one are youlooking at?
Are you looking at meth bundlesthat have a scorpion logo and
one has a spider logo, or that'snot how it works.

Speaker 2 (01:23:50):
You know, for us we ran into, obviously we ran into
the scorpion, a pony, but thoseare the markings that it had.
But it's multiple people thatdeal through there.
Like we had people fromMichoacan, we had people from
Sinaloa, jalisco, we had peoplefrom everywhere you know, know,

(01:24:16):
from those major states in um,in mexico, but they knew each
other but they were not dealing.
You know they were not the sameso their acquaintances but they
would not.
They were not dealing from thesame person.
They, they had their ownbusiness they did their own
things and they're also notkilling each other, no, but they
would hang out together, so orthey would talk.
So they would say, look, I havemy own clients, I'm not going

(01:24:39):
to mess with your clients.
But if I want, like if one ofthem wanted dope from one of the
other guys, they would dealwith each other but he would
sell it to him, but obviously ata higher price.
But they would supply eachother, but they were not going
to their own clients Like, hey,you don't deal with my clients,
I won't deal with your clients.
This is where I'm dealing withthis.
I don't want you in theredealing with other people.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
Is there that much of a market where you're able to
do that?

Speaker 2 (01:25:03):
That's the way they were doing it.
They had their own people, butthey knew each other, but they
just didn't deal with each other.
So, wild dude.
To me it was just kind of odd,you know, because they had
certain places they would all goto and either play soccer,
volleyball or cards or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
You know, almost seems like in the recent years.
If you look like in theVictorville area I believe it
was you see these mass murdersor these murders and you can
tell, nah, there's somethingconnected with this one, right?
Do you see those as well?

Speaker 2 (01:25:34):
well, and in fresno there was a couple, uh, we had
one where, um, they, uh, theykilled four people that came
from, obviously from the la area, went to fresno no, it was.
It was, you know, back when Iwas there, like in the 2009,
2010, somewhere in there.
It was a dope ripoff andobviously they killed everybody,

(01:25:55):
including the female, and I wasable to work with one of the
homicide detectives on that casebecause it had drug types, and
it was interesting just goingover that homicide the way they
did it.
And then Clovis had one thesame way, where it was a dope
ripoff and they killed all thepeople.

(01:26:16):
They took them out to anorchard and they and they
started killing her and one guygot away and that's how they
were able to obviously catch themain suspects on that case.

Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
What did you find interesting about the murder in
the Fresno with the dope?

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
Well, the interesting part of it is, when they
started to investigate it andthat was part of it, because I
got assigned to with one of theguys is that they had like a
crew that they buy drugs fromdope dealers and then they order
a bunch more and they suckerthem in.

(01:26:50):
But it's not to purchase, it'sto rip them off An ambush, yeah.
So basically they ambush themand that's what was happening.
But it's a group that wasworking our area, but then they
move them around.
So some of the interestingthings that happened in that
case we found that they weredoing murders in other states or
they were doing murders insouthern california.

(01:27:10):
So they move them around.
So what happens is when theygot hot, they would move them to
out of state and they wouldbring the other group that was
out of state into our area.
So it's a group that was movingaround in the united states.
Once they all got hot, theywould go back to mexico and
bring a new crew in.
Of killers yes, that wassomething that we were kind of
like.
It was interesting the way theywould do it.

(01:27:31):
What would you consider theseguys hitmen?
They were hitmen, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:35):
For the cartel.

Speaker 2 (01:27:38):
Either for the cartels or they were just hitmen
for themselves.
They were a group of peoplejust ripping dope dealers off.
That's all they were doing.

Speaker 1 (01:27:45):
What the heck man that is so freaking, wild dude.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
Yeah, so it's like I said, it's just the dope.

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
World is just different.
Did you guys come across theSanta Muerte All dope dealers
had that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:58):
Where did you see it?
We would, I mean, we would seeit a lot like in little shops.
You know, obviously, likeBotanicas, you know where they
sell that stuff.
They would sell the statuesthere and then we would see them
at people's homes.
Obviously, when they would getarrested, we would see that they
had the altars there.
We would see the Santa Muertein their cars, the little

(01:28:20):
statues or the little picturesof it.
And it's just because they'reobviously they look at it as
someone that's going to, theypray to it and they're going to
get protected, which it's allnonsense.
It's just witchcraft, that'sall it is.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
Bro, but that has to be an eerie feeling braiding a
pad and seeing an altar of theSanta Muerte.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
Like, what feelings did it give you?
No, it raises the hair in theback of your neck.
I mean, I'm being honest.
That's why I asked you, bro.
So we knew that the way wewould do it is we would go like
this is the way we would do itwe would go to the stores, the
Botonicas there in FresnoObviously it's downtown Fresno,
on Fulton Mall, and we wouldjust sit out there at the stores

(01:29:07):
and watch people go in and outand then we'd watch what they
were buying or what they werecarrying.
So what we would do is we wouldfollow the guy that had the
biggest statue because, okay,he's going somewhere.
So we would follow him, and alot of the times they were
taking the statue to where theywere stashing their stuff
because they wanted protection.
But it's an eerie feeling.
It is when you go into thehouse or an apartment.
Did it feel evil?

(01:29:28):
Yeah, you could feel it.
I mean it really raised thehair on your skin.
I mean it did you?

Speaker 1 (01:29:34):
could feel it Now, when you're messing with some of
these people, do you feel theevilness out of some of these
people?

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
In some you do, because they believe that you
shouldn't have been able toarrest them, because they truly
believe that they should beprotected.
And a lot of the people thathave or they deal with the Santa
Muerte, they're violent people.
They're a lot more violent thanyou know back then, when they
had obviously Malverde and allthat, jesus Malverde.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:01):
That's a different world than this one.
The ones with the Santa Muerteare the more violent.
Obviously, individuals they'remore into the violence, Would
they?

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
care to kill a cop?
No, it wouldn't bother them onebit, mm-mm, they wouldn't blink
an eye, they wouldn't blink aneye, no.

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):
So that's why I tell you that's an important thing is
always respect.
Treat them like human beings,nothing personal.
That's something that I alwaystold them, even though they were
the baddest guy.
They were upset.
It's like, hey, it's nothingpersonal, I go, this is my job.
Your job was to deal dope, myjob is to catch you.
I just had a better day today.

Speaker 1 (01:30:39):
Oh, because they were legitimately getting pissed off
.

Speaker 2 (01:30:41):
Yeah, and one of the things like, if I did undercover
work, one of the things that Iwould do to make sure that this
person understood that I was notan informant or a rat.
I would show them my badge, ohokay, and tell me I'm not an
informant, I'm not a rat, I'm acop.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
Okay, just to let you know I go.
There was nothing personal inthis thing, it's just my job.
Wow, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:31:01):
That's so sketchy.

Speaker 2 (01:31:03):
Yeah, but that's do it because we didn't want them
to think that we crossed themyeah, we had that.
We were informants or rats, andthen they get out and they
still have that, that, and thenyou've been on the street.

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
That's not a good thing so what are some of the
reactions you saw out of thesepeople anger, cussing, some
crying sometimes, for the mostpart, I saw people weren't angry
, they just like man.

Speaker 2 (01:31:24):
I thought you were my buddy man, my friend, you know
I trusted you that and somepeople was like man, I can't
believe it.
I knew you were a cop.
I knew you were a cop and it'slike, if you want to know you
were a cop, you were not dealtwith me right.
So basically that's theirexcuse.
But a lot of them, because you,the way you treated them, they
weren't like upset to wherethey're like hey, man, we've
ever meet you, we're gonna docommit, not none of that, right,

(01:31:45):
it's, it's the way you treatpeople.

Speaker 1 (01:31:48):
Bro, it's like donnie brasco man.
Personally.
Did that ever make you feel acertain way, like?
Did you ever feel like, oh, Ibetrayed this guy, or you
totally understood?

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
no, I mean, you can understand your.
Your job is you.
This is where the crossing ofthe lines are at.
If you notice, um, the theyears, you have officers being
arrested for drug trafficking,involved in that kind of stuff.
I think what happens is whenyou go undercover, it's a role,
it's like the movies, rightRight, but there's a line you

(01:32:19):
can't cross.
You always got to rememberyou're grounded, you're a cop,
you're not a crook, you're not adrug dealer, right, you're not
a gangster, you're a cop, that'sthe a crook.
You're not a drug dealer,you're not a gangster, you're a
cop.
That's the line you cannotcross.
And I think what happens is, ifyou're not careful, you could
easily end up in that other linewhere you think you're there.
Actually You're a crook, you'rea gang member, or you're a dope

(01:32:40):
dealer.
You're not.
You're a police officer, that'sit, you're not, nothing else.
And I think that's the line youcan't cross.

Speaker 1 (01:32:48):
Let me ask you this Were you ever pressured to do
drugs?

Speaker 2 (01:32:52):
No.
So what happens is you have to.
This is the way I did it when Iwas undercover.
I never told somebody that Iwas a user.
I never told them I'm not goingto use drugs.
No, I told them I'm abusinessman, I like to make
money, just like you do I.
No, I told him I'm abusinessman, I like to make
money, just like you do.
I don't touch my product, Idon't do my product, I don't do
drugs, I sell them and that getsyou away from them.

(01:33:18):
Ever telling you.

Speaker 1 (01:33:19):
Well, you get no.
No, that's I mean the way youtold me.
Right now you convinced me likeoh yeah, dude the businessman.

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):
That's all it is.
You always have to be abusinessman.
It's a business.
We're going to be a businesspartner.
That's the way you have totreat it.
You can't treat it any otherway.
But did they ever try?
No, all the people that I'veever dealt with never had any
issues.
It was always an understandingthat I'm not a user, I don't use
.
It's all a business.

Speaker 1 (01:33:45):
Wow, dude, so then you left there.

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):
Did you retire from that position?
No, um I, what I did is I.
I stayed at uh majors for um,obviously for the pd.
Then my last two years, um, Iended up getting assigned to
haida, which is uh another unit.
It has to do with uh narcotics,but it's uh you're tied with
like you know the, you know dea,the, the state, and they would
go after the same traffickers,but they were more involved in

(01:34:16):
what they called T3s wires.
Those are the kind ofinvestigations that we did there
my last two years before.

Speaker 1 (01:34:24):
I went back to the street so it almost just seemed
like you were going higher andhigher and higher deeper and
deeper into that world.
Right, what did you do toyourself to keep yourself
grounded from completelyengulfing yourself in that world
?
I mean, I'm sure there's someundercover cops that just live,
breathe and undercover.

Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
Yeah, but all it is is just the role.
That's what I tell you.
You have to remember who youare.
Right, you just got to.
That's what I tell you.
You can't.
You have to remember who youare Right.
You just can't say you know,I'm a crook too.
That's not a good thing.
If you do that, then you're inthe wrong business.
Right, you're a police officer.
You can't remember, you can'tforget that.
It's awesome, dude, my wife.

(01:35:04):
There was times where I wouldgo home and and I would have to
keep the case going I would callpeople from home.
While I was at home, I wouldcall them and you know, just
play the game that I was outsomewhere.
I mean, that's all it is.
It's just a game, right, butyou have to stay grounded, you,
you just can't forget who youare.
The minute you forget who youare is is you already crossed
over on the other line, andthat's where the bad stuff comes

(01:35:26):
in Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:35:27):
Did you ever experience that in your career?
Dirty Cops oh, absolutely, youdid.

Speaker 2 (01:35:33):
Absolutely.
I mean, if you really thinkabout it, you worked around a
few people you talk about theBakersfield officer, demaso Diaz
, and some of those We've had,obviously going through teaching
being an instructor in thetwo-week narcotics school.
We had a group of individualsfrom up north and they were

(01:35:54):
talking about certain thingsthey were doing and we told them
hey, you guys can't be doingthat, you guys are borderline,
going to get in trouble, youguys could end up getting
arrested.
Well, we're trying to give themadvice.
Wait, what was happening?
Well, they were doing thingsthat they're not supposed to be
doing.
Who?
There was a group ofindividuals up in the north end,
up in like a northern state,you know, like up in north.

Speaker 1 (01:36:14):
But they were attending the class.

Speaker 2 (01:36:15):
Yeah, they were attending because they have to
attend our class, our training,so it's like a certification
that they could work Right,right, right right.
And when we go through thattraining, we tell them the do's
and the don'ts of what youshould be doing and things that
you cannot be doing and thingsyou can't hide.
Well, they were doing thingsthat they shouldn't be doing.

(01:36:36):
That was kind of likeborderline.
But where were they doing thisIn the classroom?
No, no, no, in their own cases,like in the cases they were
doing.

Speaker 1 (01:36:46):
Oh so you guys are talking and they were telling us
, you know like, hey, you know,we did that yeah right.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
And so they're like whoa, whoa, whoa, time out, what
are you guys doing?
And then we tell them it's likehey, you guys can't be doing
that.
You guys are going to end up inhot water.
You guys could easily be, werethey violating some form of law.
Absolutely than anything else.
Okay, so we told him hey, don'tdo that, because you guys could
end up in hot water.
Well, obviously, some of theseguys don't, you know some of

(01:37:13):
them.
They just they're like hey, Iguess they're okay with it.
You know the with us talking toa mentor and trying to mentor
them yeah, they're probably likeoh, this is the way we always
done.
Yeah, that's exactly right,that's, and one of them was very
specific that he just didn'tcare, correct.
And obviously we target him.
A target him a lot more bytargeting means that we talk to
him a lot more, saying, hey, ifyou don't stop, I'm telling you

(01:37:33):
the way you're saying you'regoing to end up one in jail,
arrested or hurt.
Okay, I'm just telling you.
It's not going to end up well.
Well, eight months later he wasarrested in Philadelphia by the
feds.
He transported 300 pounds ofmarijuana and it was transported
to the feds over there and hewas a police officer, a deputy.

Speaker 1 (01:37:58):
Hold on man.
Was he in the performance ofhis duties?
No.

Speaker 2 (01:38:05):
So he was just a regular.

Speaker 1 (01:38:06):
He was a criminal.

Speaker 2 (01:38:06):
No, well, yeah, basically he was doing illegal
stuff, but he was a policeofficer.
That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
It does happen.
But the stuff he was saying hedidn't care about policy, so he
sure as hell didn't care aboutthe law.

Speaker 2 (01:38:15):
Right.
So obviously he thought he wasactually transporting the stuff
to another.

Speaker 1 (01:38:20):
Obviously another crook and he wasn't going to
make money off of it, yeah.
But it happens, it does happenin all agencies.

Speaker 2 (01:38:26):
All agencies.
Even now it does happen.
I can tell you there's.
If you really look at it, ifyou search it, you see a lot of
police officers being arrestedon a daily basis, a constant
basis.

Speaker 1 (01:38:39):
When you and your friend saw that your partner
were, you like, oh look, it'sthis guy.

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):
Yeah, we were like we told him.
I mean, it's like we told him.
Exactly bro, you know, becauseI mean, we've been in this, we
were doing this business for along time, so we know the do's
and the don'ts.
It's like, hey, you guys can'tbe doing that.
And we tell them, look, don'tdo things that are going to get
you in trouble, because we'vealready been there, we're trying
to prevent you guys fromgetting in trouble.

Speaker 1 (01:39:01):
Facts yeah, that's it , people, not to do those
mistakes.
I would like for you to givethe young cops advice.
In their current circumstance,with the inexperience of
communication skills, currentmodern technology, the political
climate, you have mayors thatdon't actually back their cops

(01:39:22):
at times, chiefs that don't backtheir cops.
What are some ways they cansurvive the career that don't?

Speaker 2 (01:39:28):
back their cops.
What are some ways they cansurvive the career?
One integrity stay withinpolicy and within the law.
You follow those three.
You shouldn't have any issues.
That's it.
That's all you have.
I mean that's it.
And if you're weak in any partof your skills, like
communication skills, writingskills, take a class.

(01:39:51):
Or if you don't want to take aclass, it's real simple.
Everybody has good reportwriters in their departments,
officers that write real well.
Ask them for a copy of theirreports.
Hey, could I get a copy of yourreport of the way you write and
just read the reports of howthey write Right Communication

(01:40:15):
skills hey, take a class if youhave to, or, or, or, just learn
from your veteran officers howthey communicate with people.
That's how you learn.
But you, you have to be willingto do it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
Would you agree that they also have to put forth
extra effort in order toaccomplish Absolutely?

Speaker 2 (01:40:29):
If you're weak somewhere, you have to be able
to want to learn that skill.
If you take the effort, you'lllearn it, but if you don't, then
it's on you.

Speaker 1 (01:40:41):
Because, dude, I really don't like bashing the
new generation.
That's really not what I'mdoing, right, I try to put them
up on game, but it's almostfeels like a sense of
entitlement within thisgeneration where it's like nah
man, you actually got to workhard and to be able to grind,
especially in law enforcement,right, Would you agree that
there's no room for error?
That's life or death.

Speaker 2 (01:41:02):
Right and like we tell them.
It's like, as long as you'rewithin policy and within the law
, you're not going to have anyissues, regardless of what it is
Within policy and within thelaw.

Speaker 1 (01:41:13):
Now what if there's times where the politics try to
make an example out of them?
Will you think it'll still beall right?

Speaker 2 (01:41:19):
Absolutely, If you're within policy and within the
law.
What are they going to do toyou Exactly?
They may have you fight for ita little bit.
Yeah, you're going to gothrough the ringer, but if
you're there it's like well,policy didn't violate, or what
law didn't violate?

Speaker 1 (01:41:31):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:41:31):
What are they going to get you on?
How important is case law?
Case law is everything youdon't want to make case law.
That's the thing, and that'swhat happens with case law.
Case law is brought because ofbad behaviors, bad practices.
So if you follow policy, youhave to know your policy, and I

(01:41:52):
think that's what happens a lotwith new officers they don't
read their policies and theydon't understand their policies,
and that's how they get introuble.

Speaker 1 (01:41:58):
What's one thing you can tell a new officer if he
reads it, doesn't understand it.
What can it be the next steps?
Ask questions.

Speaker 2 (01:42:04):
That's what your trainer's for, ask him questions
and I think, the way you know,nowadays obviously I'm not
working anymore, but I stilltalk to people that train yeah,
the younger officers or newofficers there is a trend that
you know like there's someentitlement by the new officers.
They don't like to getobviously told what to do.

(01:42:27):
But there's also another partof newer trainers with less
experience that are trainingalso and the mentality is
different.
The mentality is not I need totrain this officer to succeed.
That's what a trainer does.
Right, you should be as atrainer.

(01:42:47):
You're saying you know what?
I trained 10 officers, or 10individuals.
Nine passed the last one man.
I just couldn't get them to dowhat I wanted to.
That's going to be a fail, butyou want to pass nine out of 10.
You have 90% rate, which isgood on the positive side, but
the mentality of new trainers ishow many guys could I get out

(01:43:09):
or wash out?
That's not a trainer's job.
I've heard that from otherpeople before.
Your job is to train someone,and I think that's how you get
evaluated as a trainer.
If you're training peoplecorrectly, they're going to do
their job.

Speaker 1 (01:43:24):
Well, I think Americans have a huge leadership
issue in this present day andage.
I don't believe that they'vegotten the experience or
understand the right way to leadpeople and it's always about
the people that you're leading,not yourself.
But I think a lot of peoplefail to grasp that concept.

Speaker 2 (01:43:44):
Yeah, I think that happens.
I think just the nature of thepolitics nowadays.
I think we as police officers,everybody says, well, you took a
note?
Yeah, we take a note as apolice officer to obviously
serve the community, protect thecommunity, to protect the

(01:44:05):
Constitution.

Speaker 1 (01:44:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:08):
Where does it say that you're going to be used as
a political pawn?
Right, that doesn't sayanywhere.
There's a lot of things that Imean.
Obviously, the way the politicsare now is like back when I
started.
That wouldn't be tolerated.
You know, there's just no way.
You just couldn't, you justwould know there's no way you

(01:44:28):
would be able to allow certainthings to occur.
It just wouldn't.
It wouldn't be tolerated.

Speaker 1 (01:44:33):
Do you think you would be able to survive a law
enforcement career in thispresent day and age?

Speaker 2 (01:44:39):
Yes, as long as you follow policy and the law Right,
and that's it.
It almost seems so easy.
Huh, it is easy, but sometimesyou lose focus and you don't
understand where things aregoing.
You have to be able tounderstand that.

Speaker 1 (01:44:56):
Before we wrap it up, I want to just do a wild
question out there, man DEI, thehiring of.
You know, I've seen a lot offemales being hired extra right
and I watch a lot of YouTubevideos, police activities,
body-worn cameras and I'm nottaking a shot at female cops,
man, but do you think somepeople, including males, should
not be police officers?

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
Yeah, I mean there is , Unfortunately there is.
And law enforcement, policework, is not meant for everybody
.
Elaborate on that?
Well, it's not.
I think a lot of people thatcome into law enforcement the
newer generation doesn'tunderstand what it is.
They just say, hey, I want tobe a police officer.
And then when they actuallystart they're like, oh, that's

(01:45:40):
not what I want to do.

Speaker 1 (01:45:41):
They're like I want to be a police officer, I want
to take a picture a TikTok.

Speaker 2 (01:45:45):
All they're doing is they're.

Speaker 1 (01:45:47):
Playing the part.
Playing the part Getting thetattoos, the sleeve.

Speaker 2 (01:45:51):
It's different.
That wasn't back then.
Back then you wanted to be apolice officer, the pink
fingernails, the pink handcuffs.
I see it all, man.
Yeah, I mean it's I don't know.
It's just Like I said, it's adifferent world.

Speaker 1 (01:46:02):
I mean it is it's way different, it's not my world
anymore, but I was never a cop.
You know what I mean.
But it's just it.

Speaker 2 (01:46:07):
The it changed, that world changed and I could tell
you as, uh, as a backgroundinvestigator that's, we see it
too.
I mean, we see certain peoplethat come in and you're like man
, I don't know.
We, we talk to them.
Our job is just to do uh, youknow, obviously do their
background.
They're making sure that youknow they're able to work in law
enforcement.
And then I go a bit step beyond.
I have a conversation with them.

(01:46:28):
At the very end I say, hey, doyou actually know what you're
getting into?
And I give them advice.
You need to understand thatthis is not like an 8 to 9 job.
There's mandatory overtime.
Sometimes there's times thatthey're going to call you back.
You have to stay.
Whether you want to go home,you're going to miss a lot of
time.
Do to call you back.

(01:46:52):
You have to stay.
Whether you want to go home,you're going to miss a lot of
time.
Do you understand that?
And and I always tell them looka law enforcement is not for
everybody.
Have a plan b.
Facts just in case it doesn'twork out, what is your plan b?

Speaker 1 (01:46:59):
so you're a background investigator.
Now what is some advice forsomebody aspiring to be a cop
like?
What are some things you wouldrecommend?
Obviously, staying out oftrouble.
What are some things you wouldrecommend, obviously, staying
out of trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:47:09):
What are some other things?
I think the biggest thing ismake sure that your writing
skills, communication skills,are excellent or good, that
you're able to communicate withpeople writing skills and
obviously the biggest thing ismake sure that this is the field
you want to be in.

Speaker 1 (01:47:24):
What are some of the major disqualifying factors for
some of these candidates?

Speaker 2 (01:47:29):
There's a lot of it.
I mean, a lot of it has to dowith you know the behavior, poor
behavior, drugs, arrest.
You know multiple citations.
There's a lot of things,obviously.
That's it.
Big one is DUIs, dv.

(01:47:52):
You know domestic violenceissues.
It's just different.
The way things are nowadays.
It's a lot different.
If you really want to be intolaw enforcement, stay away from
all those issues.

Speaker 1 (01:47:57):
That's it.
Facts, man, facts.
Well, I want to thank you fordriving all the way down here,
man, and sitting down and havingthis conversation, bro, you
shared a lot of good experience,dude.

Speaker 2 (01:48:06):
Well, thank you for having me First time in a
podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:48:09):
You killed it, bro.
You did amazing man.
Hopefully we'll get to see youon another podcast.
I'll keep in touch.
I want to hear more of yourstories.
Dude, All right, Just let meknow, Absolutely, Thank you.
Thank you, bro.
There you guys have it, folks.
Wow man.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
Undercover know you can't beat it.
If you like what you saw, makesure you hit that subscribe
button.
Love you keep pushing forward.
Story never ends, thank you.

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