The Devil in Prison: A Whistleblower's Story

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hector Bravo unhinged .

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Chaos is now in session.
Welcome back to our channelWarriors.
We are still growing.
We have not stopped.
You guys keep asking for it.
You guys keep getting it.
Another banger today, a formerlieutenant, another one from the
California Department ofCorrections and Rehabilitation
with a lengthy time andhonorable service under his belt

(00:27):
.
We have today none other thanKenny.
What up, kenny?
How you doing?
Good dude, how was your travelsover here to San Diego?

Speaker 1 (00:34):
It was a little crowded on the freeway than
we're used to, because where Ilive now we don't have no
traffic.
Do you miss California?
No, except for my kids.
Some of my kids are out here,our kids you don't miss the
weather.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
The weather, yeah, the ocean.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
The ocean and that's about it, that's it.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
That's about it.
That's pretty much what I see.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
The food, the Mexican food I had menudo last night.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I haven't had it.
You can't get menudo where Ilive.
For sure you like menudo, or?

Speaker 1 (01:04):
pozole better.
I like menudo.
That's what I was raised on,that's what my?
Grandma made my mom.
Where were you raised at, dude?
I was raised in Madera,California, and I lived there a
good portion, really a longportion of my life.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
I didn't get married until I was 33 years old.
You did not get married untilyou're 33.
I was 33, god bless you, bro.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
I waited and it didn't work.
It did not work.
No, I got divorced.
She divorced me when I was uh,that's part of the story, but
anyway.
But I met my wife now, uh, 14years ago.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
We've been almost 14 years of marriage I have come to
the conclusion last night, thatmarriage is a scam, bro, and no
man should participate in.
This is coming from myexperience, yeah, and my
experience is pretty fair andknowledgeable, yeah, but oh, go
ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Here's the biblical thing Whoever finds a wife,
finds a good thing, finds favorwith God.
And you just got to find theright one, the one I have now.
God bless you, man, you'reblessed.
She was with me throughchemotherapy and cancer and
never, never, never.
You know, she was always by myside and I'm thankful for God

(02:15):
because you don't know, when yousay till death, do you part, or
sickness and health Right, thatthey really mean it until it
comes Right.
Oh absolutely you know, and soit you know, I don't know what I
do without her.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
I'm grateful for you, dude, I'm glad.
Is madera, central californiaor northern california central?

Speaker 1 (02:33):
central right.
It's the heart of what theycall the heart of california.
It's right in the direct centerof california, geographically I
had no idea.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
They called madira the heart of California.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yes, yes, and there's a place on the freeway, freeway
99.
It's a tree and it's the exactgeographical center of
California.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
I thought maybe Los Angeles would be the unofficial
heart of California.
No, everybody flocks there.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, no, it's Madeira.
In fact, their logo for thetown is a heart Interesting man.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, Did you have any family members in the
department that maybe gave youthe guidance or awareness to
want to join?

Speaker 1 (03:10):
absolutely not no, wow, you want to know why I
joined the department.
Yeah, oh um.
Well, I had a pretty wildchildhood.
I mean, I had a daughter that Ididn't find until 32 years
after she was born.
She found me, actually, but Ihad a wildlife and at 25 years

(03:31):
old, jesus found me.
None of us were looking for him, but he found me and my life
changed forever.
And so I went from 25 to 33.
I was working, ministering tokids at the juvenile facilities
in Madera, and then had aministry, a little ministry with

(03:54):
the youth, and I went to Mexicoto preach, of course with an
interpreter, because, my dumbself, I don't speak Spanish.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
You don't speak Spanish, man.
No, bro, man Jimenez is yourlast name.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Well, listen, when I was going to school okay, I'm a
lot older than you are speakingSpanish on the playground you
got in trouble.
By who?
By the teachers?
I didn't know that, yeah.
And then five, six years later,they started a bilingual
program.
Wow, so go figure.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
But yeah, it was.
You know things were a lotdifferent then.
You know, I read somethingrecently or saw something
recently that they were tryingto erase people's heritages by
doing that, eliminating people'slanguages out of culture.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
They didn't want to, because they were giving an
influx more and more of Hispanicpeople.
Of course Not just throughgreen card, but people were
actually coming there and thenfamilies were growing.
You know, mexicans, we breedfast.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
It was Alaska.
It was Alaska that they weresaying they didn't want those
original people to be speakingthat language, and they wanted
to strip them from the nativetongue.

Speaker 1 (04:55):
I'm sad that I didn't keep that part of my heritage,
but you know I can understand.
I can eat Mexican.
Menudo Menudo.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
So how old were you when you joined the department,
Bro?
I was 36 years old.
Oh dude.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
So here's, what happened From 25 to 33, when I
got married I was doing all thatministry stuff, so that was my
focus and I was working at afiberglass insulation plant
Making good money.
But I hate it, bro.
I wanted to be Fresno PoliceDepartment.
All my friends were in FresnoPD, so I wanted to go to the
academy but my then wife saidabsolutely not, because we'll

(05:36):
get divorced.
I should have done it becausewe got divorced anyway.
Oh, come on, man.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
You know what I mean.
I once had a Challenger that Itraded in for a Highlander.
Yeah, what are some of thedangers of working around
fiberglass?
It seems like pretty dangerous,a lot of cancer.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Oh man, Like I can't attribute what happened you can
attribute?
No, I don't think so, but Iknow a lot of friends that
because there's a lot ofchemicals, we would be cleaning
this duct work and take thestuff put in a bag and they'd
take it to a toxic waste dump.
Go figure, no, freaking way,dude.

(06:13):
Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah calushawasn't a thing, or just I don't
know how they got away with that, but, um, I had some pretty
good jobs there but I I just myheart was always doing some type
of police work, investigationsand stuff like that.
I always had that, my mom and Igrowing up.
We watched the shows, you knowdetective shows and all that,
and I thought, well, someday Iwant to do that.

(06:33):
What were the shows back in theday?
Oh, I'm trying to remember, umunsolved mysteries.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
Oh, like way before way before that.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Right, but way before that, bro.
Like you know the streets of bro, like you know the streets of
San Francisco, you don't knowthat, carl Holland the old guy
Different shows like that.
Okay, so it was always kind oflike what I wanted to do.
So I suffered through thatcareer because I had a family,
you know doing that workFiberglass.

(07:04):
I had a family, I had kids, youknow doing that works
fiberglass.
I had a family, I had kids, youknow, and I just I worked.
I remember I was so exhaustedbecause I would work 12-hour
shifts and then work overtimeand and I come home and I lost
like two or three years becausemy son never slept so I was up
with him because I wanted tomiss that.
I didn't want to miss that time, but it was always wanting to

(07:26):
get out of that.
And one day I came I told mythen wife hey, what about the
Department of Corrections?
Because we had a friend thatworked at CCWF?
Oh, that wouldn't be bad.
So she agreed and I went to theacademy in 1998.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
1998 as a 36 year old man.
Yeah, a lot of people ask mehey, hector, is it too old for
me to join?
And I tell them no, absolutelynot.
What would you say some of theperks of joining later on in
life?
My thing is you guys havewisdom already under your belt.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yes, and what I, the big, uh, fortunate, uh, you know
happenings with me when I wasat at the academy is all my
roommates were the same age,really the we would.
We were very disciplined we goto bed when it was time, get up
in the morning at four, fiveo'clock in the morning.
The kids next to us stayed upall night doing all kinds of

(08:22):
crazy stuff and they would getmad at us because they could
hear us getting ready in themorning.
Oh, and I'd be like, hey, shutup in there, go to sleep when
you're supposed to fool.
But you know we had thatdiscipline.
You know I learned thatdiscipline from working and my
dad Absolutely my dad used tomake me go work in the field.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
So Was it a six-week academy to make me go work in
the?

Speaker 1 (08:43):
field.
Was it a six-week academy?
Six weeks, six weeks, six weeks, very intense six weeks.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
At that time frame?
Looking back in hindsight, didthat differ from when you were a
sergeant at the academy?

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yes, and the reason I went back is because of the
influence that the sergeants hadon me that were there, my
company commanders.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
What kind of stuff were they leaving impressions,
or how were they leavingimpressions on you?

Speaker 1 (09:11):
The most important thing is to go home at the end
of the day, defend yourself, thealertness they always wanted us
to be alert and just thediscipline.
The PT was a little bit moreintense.
We had PT when I was a sergeant.
In fact, I led PT.
I was in pretty good shape eventhough I was 50 years old and

(09:34):
so, anyway, it was very intenseand they talked about a lot of
their experience and the thingsabout if you get into it with an
inmate, they're used tofighting all the time.
We're not Right, true, true.
I mean, they live like that,true, and especially like with

(09:55):
weapons and all that.
Who has a weapon?
I don't carry a weapon, right,but so things like that and it
just made an impression on me.
It was all about integrity andwatching your partners and being
disciplined, going to work ontime being a good relief, you
know, supporting your, yourpartners and that type of stuff.

(10:17):
So it was, it was a biginfluence on me.
I wanted to be that and so, asI moved up on my career, I said
you know what I'm going to do,like those guys did.
Because it made an influence,because I have to admit and I'm
not trying to play a song formyself, but I had a pretty good

(10:40):
career and I attribute it tothose guys.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
Right now the experiences and characteristics
that you just described, uh,from your academy sergeant, it
seemed to me that it was verysimple, to the point and focused
around the bread and butter ofcorrections yes, right, it's all
about safety and security,safety and security.
Yeah, looking now at presenttimes corrections 2025 do you

(11:05):
believe everything is chaoticbecause they have uh gotten away
from that?

Speaker 1 (11:11):
absolutely, absolutely.
And uh, there's no.
Uh, I'll give you an example.
When I was going to the academy, it was 30 percent of the
people were military, right orex-military.
Of course, they wanted todouble dip, get that 20.
Someone had 20 years and theywanted to get to 20 years.
And so they had that disciplineand they had an effect on us

(11:36):
too.
And now I talk to an academyadministrator not too long ago
3% 3% military.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
The rest of them?
He just told me they're kidsthat want to get a job.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Okay, cool, perfect, we'll go off of that.
Is working in corrections man?
A place just to go get a job?

Speaker 1 (12:04):
Absolutely not, absolutely not.
Why a place just just to go geta job?
Absolutely not, absolutely not.
Why?
Because you can't have a thatkind of mindset.
Go to work and be safe and be.
Let me give you an example.
You remember when we had to dothe run at the end of the
academy and you had to passRight, you had five minutes and

(12:28):
15 seconds or I can't rememberexactly, but anyway, now they up
the time with 30 seconds.
What does that tell you?
Let's up the time 30 seconds.
So we got some guy that's alittle slower and, dan, what I
heard is they're trying toeliminate it that time.

(12:48):
So you just run and you know,maybe an hour later you come
running in or whatever.
I don't know what the what thewhole you know timing is, but I
think it's no time.
And the reason being is therewas a.
The administrator from theacademy told the sergeants we
have too many cadets that arefailing and we spend $45,000

(13:10):
just to get them through theacademy.
And one of the sergeants askedhim hey, wait a minute.
So you're telling me that ifI'm in the middle of the yard
fighting with some inmate andhe's stabbing me or whatever, I
got some excuse me some big tubof lard, and he can't make it to
me in time, so my life is notworth having those standards.
That's what I'm disgusted about.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
You know that's the difference between public safety
and the public sector and theprivate sector.
The public sector is able toget away with stuff like that
because it's tax funded money.
You know there's alreadyprocedures, so they are able to
lower standards and just kind offill the cesspool.
Yeah, what's more important?
Having the proper mindset orbeing physically fit, both

(13:58):
Working in corrections, both.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Both.
You have to have both and youweren't around, but we used to
have the.
You had to take physicalfitness tests when you were
working in, when you werealready at the institution.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Physical fitness test yes, yes, sir.
Or the physical, annualphysical, no, it was you had to
take a fitness test.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
I didn't know that if you passed you got extra money.
I didn't know that.
Yeah, and you did a run andthere's some steps and all that
kind of stuff.
You know a lot of peoplewouldn't even take it.
They said forget the money, I'mjust not going to do it.
I mean, you got to be, you know,fit, because when I was at the
academy, like I said, I was anolder man and I did all you have

(14:44):
to qualify to do the physicalfitness teaching.
So I did, and we would run.
I don't know if you rememberYou'd run the corners, run the
straight, and then you'd do 220sand then the 440s.
Well, I'd beat two-thirds of mycompany, damn, and I'd chew

(15:04):
them out.
What the heck's the matter withyou guys?
You're in your 20s and I'm 50years old.
Yeah, how are you going to beready to fight somebody if
you're not in shape?

Speaker 2 (15:22):
You and I both talk an awful lot about fighting
inmates.
Are we embellishing that, or isthat the realities of working
in a prison in California?

Speaker 1 (15:28):
It's a reality.
It's a reality because I'vebeen in two or three different
you know, hand to hand.
Right One dude punched me inthe jaw and my sergeant in the
jaw and we fought on the tierand dude came out.
Just he came out swingingAbsolutely and because we told

(15:50):
him, hey, sergeant wants to seeyou, Opened this level 4-180,
opened the door, came outpunching, Went to court and they
found him not guilty.
I'm like they're trying to makeit sound like we did it, but
anyway, I love to ask thisquestion to former employees.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
One of them is you know, there's also a
misconception that inmates donot attack staff for no reason.
Is that true?

Speaker 1 (16:15):
No, no, and sometimes you never find the reason they
have it inside of.
Whatever their reasoning is,you might find out later or find
out from you.
Know some of your informants.
You know you develop informantswhen you're working the units
and stuff like yeah butsometimes you don't know why.
Sometimes they're just crazy.

(16:36):
They just go off, you know, anduh, especially on that 4-180,
they lived in violence theirwhole life and so that's how
they know how to solve things.
So the horrible thing now aboutthe Department of Corrections
is it's not a law enforcementagency anymore, it's political,

(16:56):
it's a political agency.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Dude, that's profound that.
You said that.
Now let me ask you this IsCorrections an arena to be a
political agency?
No.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
How do you play politics?
How do you play politics withsafety, with lives and with
somebody that's going to Humanlives.
I was working in a gun tower andManny Gonzalez got killed when
In Chino.
No, I was a sat-up, but theymade the announcement.
Everything was locked downafter that and that hit me.

(17:27):
That hit me really hard.
In fact.
I got on my knees in theobservation booth on the yard.
I got on my knees and justprayed for the family and for
the guys that I was working with, Because you just never know.
It just hit me really hard.

Speaker 2 (17:47):
Did word travel about that incident.
Oh like fast, Fast andeverywhere.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Fast, I can't see.
Yeah, I mean, once we heard it,it was a radio announcement at
our prison no way, yeah.
And then we, everything was onlockdown.
What exactly did they put over?

Speaker 2 (18:04):
the radio.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
It was just like an honor type of thing, okay, and
then the sergeant called me,said, hey, everything's locked
down and they just, you knowyou're not supposed to bring a
cell phone into prison, but Ihad a cell phone up in the tower
because I couldn't call my thenwife if I was working overtime.

(18:25):
But anyway, anyway, I calleddifferent people that I do and
you know it got.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
It got around fast dude, what uh was the first
institution that you started towork at?
Sad if sad, if sad of corcoran.
What is the makeup of thatinstitution, the layout, the
levels, two level, two yardsdorms, and this is the dumbest
design ever created by CDCR.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
If you work at Salinas or Pelican, you have a
yard and then there's a walkwayand then there's another yard,
so you have a sister yard, right?
Something kicks off here.
Here they come, right.
Where I was at SADF level 4,180, 180 by itself.

(19:13):
How close is your nearest help?
Uh, probably about, I don'tknow, trying to think maybe a
couple, two, three hundred yardsaway and then they have to come
through the complex, go on tothe patio and then go on to the
yard.
Was there a procedure for that,an alarm response protocol for
that?
It was a protocol.
When I first started it wasn'ta protocol.
You didn't have alarm response,it was like a Royal Rumble.
We just had to handle it when Ifirst got to SADF.

(19:34):
Oh, and let me finish.
And then there's two levelthree 270s, delta and Echo Yard,
and there's the misnomersubstance abuse treatment
facility F Yard, and there's themisnomer substance abuse
treatment facility F-Yard andG-Yard.
Two level three GPs, gps.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Well now, At that time.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, at that time.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
And this what year?
So you went to 1998.
You probably touched down what1998, 1999?

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Yeah, and 98.
And then there's the F and Gare which are supposedly
substance abuse.
The state kind of to me theyduped the federal government
into getting money for asubstance abuse program, oh and
you know what's funny?
Of course they did Guess whoworked for me in the kitchen.
I did work in that yard for alittle bit.

(20:21):
Who's that?
Robert Downey Jr.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah, he had sobriety under his belt, man that guy.
Yeah, yeah, so Robert Downey Jrwas your kitchen worker.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Well, he worked, for it was a couple of overtimes,
but I remember him, but he wasworking in the kitchen?

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, I yelled at him a few times.
What facility was he at?
He was at that substance abuse.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Yep interesting man, yeah, um, what was it like
hitting those yards, dude, likethe real yards, with the big
boys.
I said that's where I stayedall my career, or that I was as
sad if it was on a level 4 180,because I just like that
atmosphere of helping yourpartners working through riots,
working through all the stuffthat was going on.
We started out level 4-180.

(21:08):
So we got all the Salinasgarbage and Pelican Bay garbage.
So it was crazy.
We had alarms.
We had to pick which housingunit we ran to.
No way, yeah, because it's likethere's two over there and two
over here and you know, try tofigure out were they separate
incidents, meaning, okay,there's code three riots where

(21:30):
blacks and mexicans kick it off,and it's.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
It's blacks and mexicans fighting in all the
buildings, in the chow hall andon the yard.
Were these like just separateincidents?
No, they were all.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
Sometimes it was a distraction for what was
happening on the yard.
But sometimes sometimes it wasjust separate incidents.
Okay, and my first day and youcorrectional youngsters I hope
you never run into the guy thatI ran into.
My first day I walked on theyard as a yard cop.

(22:00):
I had a one-yard cop, s&e, andthen you got the building.
You got the gunner, fourbuildings on one side of the
yard, big wall in between, andfour buildings on the other.
Is it a wall or a gate?
It's a big wall, okay.
And then uh, and then there's awall, two gates for the patio,
for for medical or school?

Speaker 2 (22:22):
is there an officer that mans those patio gates,
gunners?
Oh, with buttons.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Yeah, up on top, oh, that's interesting.
But there's a patio cop thatradios hey, I'm ready for the
education or I'm ready forwhatever.
And so I get on the yard and Iask the guy hey, what do I do?
He said oh, you see thosebloods over there on a corner by
the gym and they're out ofbounds.
Go tell them to get in bounds.

(22:48):
So I walked.
I thought he was going with me.
This fool sent me by myself andthese bloods, their shoulders
were bigger than my stinkingcalves or my thighs.
And I looked up to him and Isaid hey, you guys, get back in
balance.
They all kind of looked at eachother like who is this fool?

(23:10):
I said, okay, you never see mebefore, I'm new, whatever.
Still, got to get back inbalance, dudes, you know
Absolutely.
And I said you know back.
Then I really didn't know whatto do.
But I, hey, you know?
Um, you don't want to turn thisto paper, you know, you don't
want me to write.
And, uh, they said they lookedat me.
They said why are you gonna dothat?
I said I'm not, but I want youto get back and bounce.

(23:32):
I looked up to make sure thegunner was watching me yeah, and
the gunner that we had washorrible.
This fool would be asleep withhis feet sticking out the window
at a level four with the yardsout, anyway.
Um, that was a test, and so Iwalked back and he was just
standing there.
He gave me the side eye likeall right, rookie, don't ever.

(23:53):
If you're a seasoned cop, don'tever do that to anybody.
Um, you teach that guy what youneed to know and what they need
to know, and then they'rethey're actually giving more
help to you later.
What if you run into something?
So I couldn't believe that wehad some crazy people.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
No, I like that you gave that experience and then
said the right thing to do,because that's reality.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, I know they're rookies, but let me ask you this
From what you know.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
looking back in hindsight, do you think if you
would have started getting yourass kicked, you think that guy
would have helped you out?
Your partner?
Is that why he felt soconfident in telling you to go?
It's just kind of whateverthose guys were back in those
days.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
I'll tell you what used to happen.
I didn't do it because I alwaysthought, hey, if I have to do
it, yeah, I'll do it.
These dudes would go out on theyard, the shoe yards, so I
heard, and take an inmate outthere, take their belts off, put
it in a 4-180 building.
There's like a little triangle,door door to the outside, door

(24:57):
to the shoe yard.
So they would put their belt inthat triangle and go take it,
battle it out with the inmate.
And there were some pretty baddudes that I worked with.
I couldn't do that.
I mean I'm not going to do that.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
It's strategy, bro, yeah strategy, and you've got to
use your brain.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah, and so I just thought, well, what a crazy way
to do things, but it waseffective.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
It was effective.
Let me ask you this it is notabnormal for us to have heard
stories of COs taking off theirbelts and fighting inmates.
That is not an abnormal story.
But where do you see a happymedian where we go from taking
off our belts and fighting themto playing pickleball and
softball and handball with them?

Speaker 1 (25:51):
Why we got escapes, why we got so much violence, why
we got violence againstofficers, is they've taken away
the line.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
But would you agree that we don't and this is me
speaking with wisdom now wouldyou agree that we don't have to
fight the inmates one-on-onewithout a belt to effectively do
our job?

Speaker 1 (26:09):
No, and I'll tell you what happened to me.
I was working in a substanceabuse building with my partner,
gina.
I don't know if you remember,but we talked about it.
Oh yeah, yeah, we did, we didand she was awesome.
But I went to chow.

(26:30):
She lets the inmates out andthen they come back and then I
come back.
So I'm walking back and I couldsee her face like something was
wrong.
I said what the heck's going on?
And she said some man may comewalking in, kick my podium and
said my vagina stank and you'rea B-I-T-C-H and he was giving it

(26:53):
the.
What race was he?
He was black.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
That was a trick question, man.
I got to do my joke out there.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
And so the sergeant.
She said the sergeant wasstanding there and he walked out
.
He didn't do nothing.
I said you've got to be kiddingme.
He didn't back you up.
No, I said, hey, open up.
And it was four sections.
Four sections, four doors, andthe inmates are housed in those
sections.
They're all in the day room.
And I said, hey, call thatinmate out.

(27:20):
I remember his name was Gibsonand he.
So she called up and I saidclose all the doors.
I took off my belt and I said,hey, come on, let's go.
You don't talk to my partnerlike that.
We don't do anything in here todisrespect you guys.
We give you your program.
You don't talk to her like that.

(27:42):
So I took a step and he backedup.
I said I got him.
So I chased him literallyaround the podium.
It's a big podium and all theinmates in every section was
standing up watching me.
I said get out of here, go backto you.
Well, and all the blacks gotaround him.
They took him.
I don't know what they did tohim, but they probably tuned him
up a little bit.
But I, I I called all the macreps and I said, hey, I'm gonna

(28:06):
go right now and start tearingup rooms right.
And I said uh, I said it, youain't gonna do that in this
building especially for her.
And and I had a white inmate.
That's the funniest thing.
This is where I got my nickname.
I'll tell you my nickname.
He's sitting there and he goeshi, cabrones.

(28:27):
Un pinche diablo told you thatcalled yeah, yeah, and just not
kind of in a joking way yeah,yeah, it was dude, you're
something else.
I said hey, anyway, well,that's, that was my name.
When I was at saturday wasdiablo and I made him stop
calling me that because I saidhey, dude, I'm debriefing yeah
and I can't go to church andtell my pastor I'm diablo, right

(28:48):
so?
but yeah, I agree that you donot have to do things like that,
that, but you do have to standyour ground I really want to
dive more into what we aretalking about right now.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, because I have also been in the same exact
situation as you 2007, levelfour GP.
But how can we convey themessage to these new cops that
you cannot do that anymore?
You probably couldn't have doneit back then, but you still
need to stand your ground withinpolicy, procedure and common
sense.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Stand your ground, be respectful, because you can get
discourteous treatment of aninmate.
Now, with the body-worn cameras, they still hear everything you
say, which that's another thing.
That's horrible cops on thestreet.
They don't turn their body capcameras on until they go to an
incident.
Right, right and uh, it'staking away the ability for cops

(29:45):
to talk to each other aboutstuff.
You know what I mean, butanyway, so yeah, it's yeah, or
realistically, is it?

Speaker 2 (29:57):
let me ask you this an honest question Is it
impossible for correctionalofficers to survive in this
climate?

Speaker 1 (30:08):
It's impossible for them to survive in the way that
we used to survive.
You don't understand what I'msaying because the line has been
erased.
You're playing pickleball.
I saw one where the guy waspopping the dude's neck.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I saw one where the guy had hishand on the officer's shoulder,
talking to him like he wastheir buddy, so what?

(30:28):
And all of a sudden we worryabout escapes, you're?
That's why the whole thing thecalifornia model of teaching it
to me at the academy, um hasmarred the line, because we have
to remember who they are.
We have to remember I'm notsaying, yes, there's people that

(30:49):
got in prison for you know, andthey just messed up in life and
all that, but you also have toremember who you're dealing with
.
Some dude may be acting likeyour friend and all of a sudden
he's got a cuff key and he'srunning down the street and an
escape, or stabbing you in theneck, stabbing you in the neck,
stabbing you in the neck.
You just don't know.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Should young officers trust inmates?
No?

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Here's the thing I had dozens, especially in ISU,
of informants.
A lot.
Did I trust them?
Heck no.
When I was in ISU I had aninformant and I said I'm going
to listen to his phone calls.
Guess what?
I got a $12,000 drug bustbecause his mom was bringing in
stuff I didn't trust him.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Should young correctional officers try to
befriend inmates in an attemptto not be victimized?
No, why?

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Because then once you do that, once you let that door
open, then you got to get thedoors open.
Yeah, keep the door closed.
Keep the door closed, keep itclosed, because just like an ant
can find just a little crack toget into your house, that's the
same thing that that inmatewill do what he can to
manipulate you and get into thecrack.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
Is it the role of a correctional officer to punish
inmates?

Speaker 1 (32:19):
No, okay, so they already got their punishment
Correct Right.
They got their punishment, theygot to serve out.
But it's our role to keep themdisciplined, because you have to
remember.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Disciplined enforced.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Enforcing the rules enforcing and then, of course,
as lieutenants, we do thedisciplinary hearings, right and
uh, you know you, you have to,you have to remember these guys
are especially level 4 180s.
They're in prison because theydon't know how to live.
They don't know how to livelife on the street without being
in trouble.
So they need a structure intheir life.

(32:54):
And that's why, when you'reworking with them, as long as
you're respectful, as long asyou keep the line there, as long
as you're not afraid to shoot,as long as you're not afraid to
use your spray, your baton, youset up like a boundary for them

(33:16):
and they are good at stayingwithin those boundaries because
they have their own structure,their own things, they have
going on.
You have to maintain that.
You have to maintain that line.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
I'm going to ask you a question from the perspective
of a new CO that doesn't knowanything.
Hey, LT, people keep talkingabout this line, this line I
should be having between me andthe inmate.
What the hell is the line?
What you know?

Speaker 1 (33:42):
and what you read.
Take that Title 50 now Read theTitle 15.
Know your procedures.
Know your procedures.
Know your inmates.
The more knowledge you have,find somebody who's got some
time in.
That's what I did.
I was real fortunate because Ihad guys after the first fool

(34:02):
who really helped me.
I had a friend named Mark and Iwatched that guy stand there.
Of course there was always adistance, but he would take the
inmates from being jacked I'mnot locking up, I'm not doing
this and he would start talkingto them.
Hey, listen, I want to see thesergeant.
He goes.
I'm going to call the sergeant.
It's going to be a mad sergeant.

(34:23):
You're going to take him awayfrom his coffee and his donuts
and he's going to listen to me.
Right, I'm going to be the onethat's going to tell the story.
That's a difference than now,too, between supervisor.
You got uh and he would justtake him.
He goes.
I'm going to work on your bedmove, but you've got to give me
time because I got a lot ofstuff going on and he would take

(34:44):
that dude down to calm.
All right, man, lock it up andthe dude would lock it up.
That guy was perfect at doingstuff like that.
That's verbal judo.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
How important is effective communication working
in a prison?

Speaker 1 (34:57):
It's everything, it's everything.
And I've, even when I used totake my cadets on casets, I
would take them over to aninmate and I would tell them hey
, tell them, would you tell themwhat's the best thing you can
do when you're working?
He said hey, be respectful,maintain your distance and

(35:22):
communicate to them in a waythat they can understand and,
just like my friend, just takethem down you know, but if they
don't want to go there and it'stime to tussle, it's time to
tussle.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Speaking of tussling, do you believe that there are
correctional officers that don'thave it in their mind, that are
prepared for that tussle?

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Well, I'll give you an example.
I have a cadet ex-cadet thatworks at the academy.
He had a female cadet andthey're doing at the academy now
.
They have role players.
You dress up in an orangejumpsuit and you have pads on
and you have to go the officerand not go, but you do something

(36:12):
for them to react.
So the sergeant walks up to thefemale, punches her in the
stomach or in the chest and shestarts crying.
Okay, and he said look, maybeshe suffered violence when she
was younger.
I got to be sensitive, took heraside, don't she was younger?
I've got to be sensitive, tookher aside, don't you?
She just was upsetting to her.

(36:33):
So next scenario she's layingon the ground, the sergeant
straddles you and he starts likepunching you and you have to
work your way out of it and shejust flails her arm, just starts
crying.
Well, he writes a lieutenantand he says well, just put it in

(36:54):
her file, the institution knowsabout it.
How are you going to sendsomebody like that If you and I,
hector, and we need some help,and somebody meets her and she
starts crying, what help is thatgoing to be?

Speaker 2 (37:05):
You just reminded me of a similar incident that I
took part in as a alarm responseinstructor at donovan charley
yard.
Same role playing, samescenario.
I was the inmate, the officer.
Hey, I'm gonna see how close Ican get to you and how
aggressive I can get before youactually utilize a use of force
option.
I was in this officer's face,cocking back and nothing.

(37:29):
I had a piece of paper in myhand, I crumpled it and I threw
it at his face and he sprayed mewith it.
I said really, you guys don'tneed to get assaulted to utilize
force.
I said did I have to throw apiece of paper at your face to
get a reaction out of you?
None of this shit gave you afucking an alert that you were
about to be assaulted.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, yeah, shit, gave you a fucking uh an alert
that you were about to beassaulted.
Yeah, yeah, I.
Well, let me tell you a funnystory.
I think I told you when you andI talked, when I was at the
academy I was training, Itrained my guys that way.
I did it in the, in theclassroom.
We weren't in the gym oranything.
Anyway, at the end of theacademy they they have like a

(38:10):
contest, physical stuff portriding, alarm response, and so
anyway, I was busy doingsomething else with one of the
other contests.
Well, I went to go check on myguys how they doing and one of
the tactical sergeants was likedude, your cadets, because you
were supposed to respond.

(38:31):
Do a radio call, give thewarning to get down and then
fight.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
He said your cadets don't do nothing.
They just run in there and theyfigure they're going to kill
somebody, and then they'll callon the radio afterwards.
He said, dude, they're going tosurvive.
And I just told him, hey look,you got to do what you have to
do to go home.
At the end of the day, that'sthe most important thing.
This job ain't nothing.
It's not that important.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Facts when did you get into ISU for the first time
as an officer?

Speaker 1 (39:05):
I was in, I was on the facility C and I worked on
the yard and under control boothand, uh, I worked in the uh,
worked in the gun for a longtime.
Uh, uh, 157 less lethal shots,two mini 14s.
That's why I got hearing aids,because my ears were blown out.
Um, where'd you shoot the minito?

(39:26):
the ground yeah, well, we had.
Okay, the first time I had sixmonths.
What was the incident?
Uh, the first time, uh, I was Igot duped in the.
Well, I didn't.
This guy says, hey, I'm in thegun, you're the sne, but I want
to be on the ground.
Serge says we're going toredirect.
So he put me up in the.
He must have knew something wasgoing to happen, dude, and so I

(39:48):
looked and said man, there's somany, right, these, the blacks,
were all grouped up.
So all of a sudden, in front ofthe building, the fight started
.
Enemies were fighting theofficers and, uh, so all the
rest of the blacks startedrunning that way.
So, being the guy in the otherobservation, I was on the corner

(40:09):
because my yard was not out andwe both put it on the ground.
Was it a staff assault?
Staff, it was a staff assault.
The whole yard was going toattack staff and I had an inmate
.
I put the shot in the groundand he said hey, let's go, they
can't shoot all of us.
So guess what I did?

(40:31):
I got on my knee and pointed atthe one dude that said that,
because I said well, you'regoing to be the first one, one
of the inmates actually shoutedlet's go, they can't shoot all
of us, yep.
Yep, I mean that just goes.
Was out on the yard and as soonas it started, the fool ran off

(40:51):
like a chicken.
Oh, of course he did yeah, soit's coiled it right then and
there.
And then the second time I shotthe mini Real quick.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
I want you to give your perspective of you chamber
a round.
You pick a location in the dirt, you fire the round.
Everything stops.
People get down.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, people get down right away.
Both of us shot at the sametime.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Restrained operations start happening.
They start putting handcuffs onpeople.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
No, it's just they were down and we waited for.
It was a radio call, it tookforever, but I just stayed on my
knee on the catwalk and just Ihad my sights pointed at.
If they would have got up Iprobably would have shot a
person, you know.
And they got down and theyunderstood that we meant

(41:52):
business.
It wasn't just for nothing.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
Absolutely 100%.
And the funny thing is, policyhas not changed since you fired
that shot.
Yeah, did ISU go up there andretrieve that weapon?

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, I had to get the round Dude six months in the
department.
I picked that round.
My hand was shaking because youknow it was intense.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Which round the casing yeah 223.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
So I had to give the gun to him.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Hopefully you put it on safe.

Speaker 1 (42:21):
man, I put it on safe took it out, so I handed it to
him.
Did you at that time feel thatyou were going to be in trouble?
No, and I had some older copsthat said hey, man, you and I
think his name was Mora, was theother guy he goes.

(42:45):
You saved us, man, because wewouldn't have been fighting.
There was only two, four, six,eight, eleven people, with all
the inmates that were out.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
I just need to stress and emphasize the importance of
utilizing the Mini-14 in a perpolicy in a life or death
situation like that, becausethere is no telling.
Let me ask you a simplequestion Can 50 inmates kill
three officers?

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Oh, absolutely.
Second time I shot.
That was a scenario.
What was the scenario?
I was up in the gun.
Some of the staff were comingfor shift change.
I hadn't been relieved yet, soI was standing there and there
was an alarm what they used tocall a bad handoff.

(43:32):
You remember that when they?
I hadn't been relieved yet, soI was standing there and there
was an alarm.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
What?

Speaker 1 (43:36):
they used to call a bad handoff.
You remember that when the copwould give you the alarm, yeah,
the house alarm and boom, hit itaccidentally, to the relief.
So the sergeant went over toclear it.
But during the time when theyard was up, put the yard down,
Everybody get down.
A big loudspeaker and there wastwo or three Southerners that
were they wouldn't get down,they were just kind of walking
around.
They finally got down and sowhen it was over, yard was still

(44:00):
down.
They didn't get up until I saidget up.
And cops went over and said hey, you guys need to get down.
So they started jawing.
They were you know what the Fyou, you don't just.
And they said, hey, let me seeyour ID.
We're not giving you our ID.
Okay, cuff up.
So they went to cuff him up.
They jumped up.
But here's the thing and I wantto tell, like, look at the

(44:25):
camera and tell you youngsters,you have to find out and know,
wherever you're working, who iswho.
I saw this shock collar get up.
So what happens?
everybody gets everybody gets up.
If I didn't know that, I knewand then I knew in my mind
because I had played thisscenario a hundred times

(44:46):
absolutely what I was going todo.
It's just like playing say,you're playing center field in
baseball, you got a, you'reahead three to one.
There's a runner on second, geta base hit.
Hey, if I get a base hit, I'mthrowing it to second because I
don't want that guy to get inscoring position.
Who cares if that guy?
If you don't do that ahead oftime, you're going to be slower

(45:07):
to react 100% when you're onyour commute to work.
Think about the scenarios.
Think about hey, what if thishappens?
What if an inmate hits me inthe face?
What if an inmate throws a trayat me?
What if an inmate does this?
What if an inmate attacks mypartner?
What if I'm in a gun andsomebody's stabbing some dude to
death?
An inmate's in a day room Inthe eyeball Stabbing dude to

(45:30):
death Two minutes as soon asthey start stabbing him, as soon
as the first stab wound hitsand that dude's kind of like not
fighting back or when you startseeing a lot of blood.
that's a good indicator andnobody is going to crucify you.
You might go through the ringer.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
But that's why they pay you $150,000 a year I was a
DVI.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
I was actually the California Gang Task Force.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Real quick on the Sureños or Mexicans.
They jumped up All of them 60.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
And there was three cops and my buddy, steve.
I'll give a shout-out to himSteve Rivera, this dude's I
don't know how 6'3", maybe 6'2"big Mexican dude.
His hands are about that big,as big as two of mine.
The shot caller ran righttowards him.
He had no equipment, he justkind of measured him up.

(46:26):
Boom, one shot and the dude wasout.
Who was out?

Speaker 2 (46:29):
The shot caller.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Knocked out on the yard.
Boom, Because we've seen itlater on the videotape.
But he had to do what he had todo.
And and they, but all thestrangers as soon as I fired the
shot, right in front of them.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Yeah, when they got out.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
And so what?
Right in front of them?
Yeah, and they got out.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
So what was the scenario that you ran through
your head prior?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Hey, if my partner that type of thing, if the yard
gets up and they're going aftermy partners, shoot Right, could
I justifiably say that I thoughttheir life was in danger?
100 fucking percent 60 inmatesand three or four or five cops
maybe.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
And common sense and experience tells you they all
got fucking weapons.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Well, actually.
Or in their fucking waistband.
The two of them that wererunning that direction had
weapons on them?
Of course they did, and so whenI fired, they all got down and
I was given a couple of days offby the captain.
I was allowed to take holidays,just to you know, chill and

(47:35):
everything was fine.
I cleared both investigationsbecause I did what policy said.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
What would you say if I was a brand-new young officer
right now, 24 years old, twoyears under my belt, and I look
at you in the eyes and I say,yeah, that's all fine and dandy,
but they're going to burn me ifI shoot the Mini 14 when
inmates are attacking my partner, I mean if they're scared tell
them to go to church.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Don't go to church.
Go to church, man, if you'rescared.
If not, go to work at Starbucks.
There ain't no shame in that,you know there's no shame.
But don't be in a place.
What if your partners need you?
They will need you.
That's why I shot all the shotsthat I fired.
Here's what happened.
Because we didn't have help onthat yard Right, you just
explained that earlier.
I told the cops.
I said let me do what I can dofirst.

(48:23):
I had those.
I think it was a 205.
It was a long range, 150 yards.
I broke a Norteño's leg withthat thing in a riot.
The what?
It's a CN gas round and it wasshaped like a little rocket and
that thing would go forever Wasthat 37 millimeter.
Yeah, no, 40.

(48:43):
Oh 37, and then the 40.
And I grew up with the 37.
And we had, we switched to the40 and uh, I just said, look,
I'm gonna shoot gas, I'm gonnashoot, I'm shooting with the
with the impact, I'm gonna dowhatever I need to do.
I shot a lot of guys withimpact.
I broke some bones.
One guy had to have surgerybecause it broke his arm and two

(49:04):
.
I said don't respond until youlet me do what I need to do,
because then what if it turns tolethal?
And then I end up shootingagain.
I've racked around and alieutenant said hey, you've got
to write a report.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
Did you feel totally confident in your abilities to
articulate why you shot thosemany 14 rounds Per policy and
procedure?

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Oh, yeah, yeah, because you've got to know
policy, you've got to know theuse of force policy.
You have to know that you cando your job.
I don't care what a captain oran AW says, or even a lieutenant
, because I had a lieutenant saylieutenant say, hey, we racked

(49:49):
around, you got to write areport.
I said really I said, when Idrop my baton and don't hit
anybody, do I have to write areport?

Speaker 2 (49:56):
or pour your pepper spray.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah, I mean, we're not advising people to start
racking rounds, but situationsdictate if you know in that
scenario, whatever happens, thenrack it and then, if it
continues, then shoot it.
I stopped because the dude gotdown.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
And he was running right towards one of my partners
and I said I'm not having that.
And I said but you've got toknow, you've got to know those
guys.
How would I know?
I would be scared because thelieutenant told me to write a
report.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
I told the lieutenant I just told him hey, hey,
that's not policy.
Would you agree in thisstatement that there are
managers and some supervisorsthat are advising cops to do
things that violate policy andwhen confronted, they're going
to deny those accusations?

Speaker 1 (50:43):
yeah, because you know you they will.
I know that for a fact and Iknow that for a fact.
But you still have to do whatyour job entails Right, and
that's what I, you know.
Tell people, hey, look,whatever your actions are with

(51:07):
your partners or with yourself,go home at the end of the day.
Could you get fired for hittingan inmate with a baton?
If he's trying to stab you,maybe, but you'll get your job
back.
You'll go to SVB.
You know that.
Oh, I don't think it's like Iforget the number now, but it
used to be.
Like 75% of the cases that wentto SVB they overturned it.
That's probably way more than75 percent.

(51:30):
Judge said yeah, you shot themini 14 and you hit an inmate in
the head because he, you knowhe was stabbing another inmate
and the inmate was, you know,lifeless yeah lifeless and, uh,
you know, so you, you can youhave know, you have to study and
know.

(51:51):
And then if somebody has anincident, see what they write.
Look, you know you're not goingto do it for them, you're just
going to look and say, oh yeah,that's pretty good verbiage.
Maybe I ought to use that if Iever get into that trouble.
Don't just go to work, drinkyour, sit down, oh we're, you
know, get the inmates out andkick back and do nothing.

(52:13):
Yeah, you gotta, you gotta, yougotta you gotta read did you
get on isu at sative?
Yes, after that gun, I went tosative, I issued sative as an
officer and, uh, that was agreat experience.
I had great partners.
Shout out to my partners.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
What roles or responsibilities did you have?

Speaker 1 (52:35):
I had actually started with a female partner.
I was her partner on the fouryard and I thought, well, what
do you mean?
You don't want me to deal withthe Mexicans, you want me to
just do the blacks and thewhites, or the blacks and the
others.
What's up with that?
And then I started seeingthings.

(52:55):
She would walk around the yardtalking to some of the serenos
by herself.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
And she was in her black patches.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Yeah, which is you and I know that a sereno.
If he sees another serenowalking talking to an inmate, he
can stab him right then, andthere he don't want to need
permission 100%.
So I just watched that and Ibegan to kind of complain a
little bit.
Tell her you know you shouldn'tbe doing stuff like that.

(53:24):
Oh no, I could walk across theyard and they wouldn't hurt me.
I'm like, oh my goodness,across the yard and they
wouldn't hurt me.
I'm like, oh my goodness, you,you're, they've already got you.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
So here you are, an isu cop trying to do your job,
but at the same time you havethis female partner who is over
familiar with inmates.
Oh absolutely, were you in aconflict?

Speaker 1 (53:43):
yeah, because you know, or were you conflicted?
I should say I was conflicted.
I should say I was conflictedbecause I didn't know everything
.
Maybe she's got it like that, Idon't know, maybe it's
inexperience.
She didn't have that much timein two, three years, maybe.
So anyway, I was switched.

(54:03):
No, actually, yeah, I wasswitched to the level four SNY.
So they switched you and nother.
Yeah, and I did search warrants, got bussed, but it didn't
happen until I got a call from aguy by the name of Mike Ruff.

(54:28):
He was the chairman of theCalifornia Gang Task Force.
He was like a senior specialagent or something Rang on my
issue phone and I'm like whatthe heck?
What number is that?
9-1-6.
He says hey, this is Mr Ruff.
He said I heard you got a dirtypartner.
And he said I heard you got adirty partner.

(54:49):
And I said, yeah, it just seemsover familiar.
She goes, look, he goes, lookmy.
Some of my agents said shewould never testify against the
Mexican mafia, ever, and theyjust think she's dirty.

(55:10):
And he goes I got undercoverpeople in there, I got SSU
agents and I got others and hesaid could you write down and
then send it to this person Ididn't know who it was Send it
to this person in Sacramento?
And I said you know what'sgoing to happen.
They're going to come after meand not her.

(55:30):
He said, oh well, we haveprotection, you know
whistleblower protection.
That's not going to happen.
Yeah, okay, and so I did it.
As soon as I did it, as soon asI did it, as soon as I did it,
as soon as I did it, send it ina fax, I began to get bust after
bust after bust after bust, Isent a bunch of people to prison

(55:51):
and put more time on inmatesProbably I don't know maybe 75
years worth of time or more.
And one inmate got 25 to lifeas a result of dope yeah, as a
result of dope.
What were they doing?
Conspiracy to bring in.

(56:11):
And this fool told me hey, toldmy partner, you'll never catch
us.
And I caught him, but he was aserial child molester on a SNY
yard, and so that I just for me,probably one of the best things
that ever happened to me whatwere some of the ways that dope
was coming in at that time?

(56:32):
One lady had a pair of pantiessewn and had a pocket and she
put the torpedoes of dope inthere and they'll, you know,
look about this big and thenjust carried it in.
You know, um, that was most.
They used their kids Staff also.
Uh, I never dealt with staff,you know, because that's not our

(56:53):
job.
That's a misconception of otherofficers that ISU is are
investigating other officers.
We can't do that.
It has to be a sergeant orabove.
If it's a sergeant, it has tobe a lieutenant on a mailroom.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
The mailroom.
Legal mail For dope.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Yeah, they do that.
One guy, this officer in thecontrol booth, calls me.
He says, hey, listen to thisphone call and I'm listening to
it and basically what he'stelling his girlfriend just get
some meth and then happy cardsthey called them and they soak a
paper card with no coating onit and then dry it, send it in.

(57:34):
So I got him and his name wasWainwright.
Wainwright Got him for a fewsix years.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
And this was on an SNY yard.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
Well, the one that I got for the paper.
He was on the level four yardGP, yeah, gp.
And so I was kind of like, hey,stuff happened Sometimes.
It happened.
You know I would catch a case.
But I know that old partnerthat I had she was hiding stuff
from me as far as the Serenios,you know I would catch a case.
But I know that old partnerthat I had she was hiding stuff
from me as far as the Serenios,you know.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
But how was she acting towards the rest of the
team of ISU?
I mean, I know from what I'veseen the ISU always kick it with
each other.
They're in the officebullshitting.
They walk together.
Were they embracing her?
Was she welcome or not?
They kind of they kind of.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
They kind of knew you know right, you know your
intuition knows.
So after that happened, uh,internal affairs called me so I
had to go interview.
Now, like I told them, I don'tknow, I don't know for sure.
I do know that I, and we'll goto this case, there was a guy by

(58:51):
the name of Trigger Beltranfrom King Cobas, just when Artie
Guzman was a shot caller, nextdoor at Corcoran, but he was a
shot caller for Facility C andTrigger Beltran had different
kind of politics.
Um, and there were some of the,some of the serenios that were

(59:11):
on the mesa really didn't likethe way he dealt with things.
Like if I was going todiscipline you, I'd make you do,
uh, 500 burpees and I thought,instead of tuning you up and you
got to pay a, you got to pay afine.
So it was his way to makingmoney.
And then sending.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Some of the members were doing those type of
consequences and they didn'tlike it, so they would be paying
off.
Paying off their uh, whatevertrouble they got into.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Oh yeah, they're drug dead.
Yeah, whatever else, but anyway, um, a guy by the name of
trista Costa, he informed onBeltran, said hey, he's got dope
, he don't trust nobody, hekeeps dope in the house.
And he was housed with anotherguy named Little Trigger and

(59:58):
Contreras I think.
His name was so the yard, notISU the yard.
Name was so the yard, not isuthe yard, because here on
charlie yard there's a on thewall there's a mental health
building, so acosta was workingin there, so they would go from
the back talk to him.
So they rushed to the cell andthey got dope and they he

(01:00:20):
basically got housed in atzik,him and his.
What did the rushing?

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
of cells look like Because that practice went away
throughout time.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
Yeah, basically you kind of time it.
You hit the rotunda and thenyou just start to run and the
cop opens the door and all thesepeople rush until you get down.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Did that create adrenaline?

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
for you.
Oh, yeah, but I was in the gun.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Yeah, but I'm sure you partook in many when you do
stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yeah, it's an adrenaline rush because you
don't know what's going tohappen, right?
Anyway, they got the drug bustand he went to AdSync.
Well, a little while went byand the non-contact booze were
in the level four section and,uh, they had set up a camera, a

(01:01:14):
hidden camera.
It wasn't, there's no camerasin the booze, but they set in on
the podium where the cops stoodand they they hit it.
So.
So he spells out Acosta's name,kill him on video.
So when I asked my old partnerwhat happened to that video it

(01:01:36):
should be an evidence oh well,it doesn't work anymore.
What do you mean?
It doesn't work anymore.
You took it from the camera.
You're supposed to put itdirectly into the evidence.
So, anyway, and then I startedthinking wait a minute, acosta's
on the mesa.
You've got to have proof ifyou're going to stab somebody

(01:02:00):
like that.
Because they went to stab himin the housing unit and that's
what my partner, barnaby torres,my buddy, he's my friend two
guys were stabbing acosta assoon as he came out of the cell
and he shot, killed one of them,shot one of them in the lower
back and shot and killed him,didn't stop it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
No no.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
The other guy was still stabbing.
That tells you what the orderswere you go until you die or
we're going to kill you if youdon't.
So the guy kept stabbing butthe staff Torres said he was
going to shoot the other guy buthe heard the king and the cops
were coming in and he said Ialways told him not to do that
but but I didn't want to shootbecause if it ricocheted I could

(01:02:47):
.
I could hit hit staff.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
So let me break it down.
Acosta informed on the shotcaller.
Yes, the female ISU saw knewthat there was evidence, video
footage of him giving the greenlight in the order made the
video disappear miraculously,which it does happen in the
California Department ofCorrections and Rehabilitation,
let me put emphasis on that.

(01:03:09):
And then they fucking stabbedthe shit out of Acosta in the
housing unit.
Yeah, and he lived, he lived,he lived.
Did he go SNY?

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
He did eventually.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Is he still around, do you know?
No, he died.
Oh, he died Good, because Ididn't want to have to fucking
bleep out his name.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
I'm lazy man he died.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Not good that he died , but when you said the name
earlier I'm like fuck, am Igoing to have to bleep it?

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
out In a hot shot and they gave him a hot shot.
Yeah, anyway, so.
But as anyway, so, uh, but asyou and I know, as lieutenants,
lieutenant, uh, they're probablygonna kill acosta.
What do we do with him?
Lucky, that's no they didn't dothat, which to me, to me, is a

(01:03:56):
violation of his civil rights,or bring in fucking acosta in
the interview.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
I mean, man, we got credible information.
You're about to get fucking.
You're done, dude?

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
no, I'm not well I didn't do that either, and I
believe I heard that later on hehe told her hey, you knew
what's gonna happen, you didn'tdo anything, I'm just saying.
And so, um, that to me was like, you know, know, I thought, man

(01:04:25):
, that's a civil rights, that'sa violation of the color of law
statute.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Let me ask you this, man, because you're a wise
individual, You're a man of theLord how did that make you feel
At that time, dude?
I could only imagine you weregoing through it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
I was conflicted and once I informed I knew that they
were going through it.
I was conflicted and and when I, once I informed I I knew that
they were going to come after me.
Um, I even hid the paperbecause I thought you know what
they're going to do?
A search warrant come in myhouse and I hid it behind a
picture and I said you know what?
I don't know what's going tohappen to me, but I know they're
going to come after me becausethis, there's an AW that was

(01:05:02):
over isu and he said he alwaystold us you ever go against the
unit, I will ruin your career.
And that's what they tried todo.
They put me under aninvestigation.
She had investigation, but theycleared her.
First of all, you're guilty ofdestroying evidence.
Where's it at?
Whether it works or not, itshould be in there, facts and uh

(01:05:22):
oh.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
So what was her fucking lame excuse that it
didn't work so she threw it away?
Yeah, whether it works or not,it should still be in there well
, yeah, it should have been inthere from the get-go.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
And how would you know?
It doesn't work if you put itdirectly in the evidence, right,
oh yeah, that's common sense.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
So I mean, yeah, it's evident, it's very evident that
she was corrupt.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
They put me under investigation.
But here's the thing I was goodat what I did investigating.
I'm not tooting my own horn, sodon't put an investigator under
investigation because he'sgoing to investigate 100%.
I've been investigating for thelast 17 years.
There you go, man.
And so when I saw stuff washappening, I was I.

(01:06:03):
It was hard.
Um, they redirect, they took meout of isu.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
Um, how soon after did they remove you from as?

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
soon as I talked to internal fears.
Oh, fuck, but they were tryingto burn me too.
I had several times where I hada cap, uh, and a um
confidential that I gave to acaptain the two brothers might
be enemies because one believedthat the other one told on him
on a search warrant that I didso.
The captain signed it and thenI gave it to the CC2.

(01:06:35):
And a sergeant came to me.
He said hey, I think you're introuble.
I said why?
Because you didn't move theseguys.
I said, uh, am I su?
Do I work on the yard?
Am I the sergeant?
Am I the officer?
No, I gave it to the number oneman on the yard, the captain,

(01:06:55):
and I gave it to the cc2.
Yeah, you did your job, so gotit.
You guys out there, you got toknow, you've got to know what
procedure is if they try to dupeyou on something.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
Yeah, you notify the sergeant.
You notify the sergeant, you'redone.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
But you've got to document it.
Yeah, I had to document it, andI don't do bad moves, I'm an
ISU.
I don't work on the yard Anyway.
So the pressure came more andmore and one day I got a call.
I was out watching my son'ssoccer practice.
It was from the DA and a friendof mine great guy, ty Ford,
shout out Worked now in OrangeCounty defending cops on

(01:07:35):
shooting and stuff like that.
Anyway, get a call, they'retrying to, they're trying to
send you to prison.
And I said what do you mean?
He goes.
They say you were having sexwith an inmate in AdSync, the
one that you, you just put sixyears on, and you're coming up

(01:07:56):
on your on his mother's trial.
Man, it hit me like a ton ofbricks.
I'm like they're trying to sendme to prison.
What are these people doing?
It felt like remember how youfelt when they put the search
warrants on you.
That's the way I felt and infact my ex-wife was like I think

(01:08:16):
I'm leaving because I don'tknow what they're going to do to
you.
She already had an agenda anywayshe was going to leave.
She already had an agendaanyway she was going to leave.
But anyway, so a friend of mine, they did the same thing to him
because he told InternalAffairs about her dealings.
Ryan Couch, he's not afraid forme to say he was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Was the warden at the time, would he later be a
secretary of the department?

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
No, he was a captain?
Oh, he was a captain at thattime, and then the warden was a
guy by the name of King.

Speaker 2 (01:08:52):
Clark, I was wondering what position that
dude was in at that time, yeah,he was.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
King Clark was a warden and Kathy Allison was the
acting warden.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
Shout out to Kathy Allison man, she let us fucking
go through hell at Donovan.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Yeah, anyway, I got all these charges of letting an
inmate make an illegal phonecall, conducting surveillance on
inmate visitors, and I'm like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
All because you blew the whistle on a dirty ISU cop.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yeah, it's retaliation, right 100% and
because now you exposed me, youpulled my covers and now I got
to do something From your angle.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
I think you just mentioned a little bit.
You exposed me, you pulled mycovers.
Do you think the managers werejust trying to hide a black eye
from the department?

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
They were trying to hide their dealings with the
mafia.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
I think they were trying to hide their dealings
with the mafia.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
oh yeah, yeah, jesus christ, dude, yeah, and, and you
know here's the thing, um, youknow you, you know there's a
cost, you know there's a cost,you know there's a cost.
You know, when you do the rightthing, it's always going to cost
you something.
But here's the thing when theywere doing all that, my buddy

(01:10:16):
and I went to a law firmMorrison Forster and at that
time was the biggest law firm inthe United States and they took
our case pro bono.
And at that time was thebiggest law firm in the United
States and he took our case probono and they sued CDCR.
The lawsuit named the people,three people involved.
One of them was the person younamed as far as later on would

(01:10:37):
be the secretary.
The other one was the AW andthe other one was the ISU cop
and it was under a RICO statuteand our fair speech, our
abilities as a public servant toour First Amendment rights to
speak out.
If it was against whoever, Inother words, the department, was

(01:11:07):
trying to push down our freespeech rights, it has to be.
I forget what the statute is,but it has to be above and
beyond your normal ISU duties,which it was who investigates
administration.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Being dirty Right, it's supposed to be the FBI, but
Actually actually it's supposedto be Office of Internal
Affairs, but they're in bed withthe administration Later on.
Well, I want to just commendyou and credit you, dude, for
blowing the whistle, becausethat's what that is blowing the
whistle at that point in time,man, yeah, that couldn't have
been easy to do the right thing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
It helped me because it helped me be stronger as far
as knowledge even more knowledgein the department.
If something bad happens to youand you're under investigation,
then study more and know more,because they're going to try to
do crap to you and you don'thave to take it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
But I know the personal feeling of when the
veil gets lifted and you realizeyour own department is corrupt.
It's not a good fucking feeling.
It's a punch to the gut, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
When it was all said and done, I cleared everything,
um, and I forgave those people.
Jesus forgave me of my sins.
He said you, if you don'tforgive, then you know I'm going
to forgive you.
But he forgave, so I forgaveEven that AW.
I had a friend that passed away, went to his funeral.

(01:12:30):
I walked right up to the AW,shook his hand because two
things I wanted to know hey, Iforgive you, and two, I'm still
here, dude.
Right, I'm still here, standingtall, I'm still working, and
what you tried to do to medidn't work.
So I forgave because you knowit's good to have forgiveness,

(01:12:50):
not just for them, but mostlyfor yourself.
It's like a burden that justgoes away.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Not having any resentment.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
I mean, I had a story , I had a mellow valor and was
nominated for another one, andso I just said hey, you know
what?
There's nothing you can do tome.
First of all, oh, and here'sthe thing, while I was going

(01:13:20):
through all that, they weretrying to send me to prison.
God gave me a scripture,jeremiah.
He spoke it to my heart.
He said they'll fight againstyou, right?
Because?
But they won't prevail becauseI'm with you to deliver you.
And I hung it on the side of mybed and they didn't, they
didn't, they didn't prevail,they didn't prevail at all.

(01:13:41):
And so, when all that washappening, I bid the first watch
and I was at the hospital mostof the time because I lived in
Fresno, so I went to thehospital.
In fact, the sergeant down theyard got mad at me.
He said I'm going to pull yourbid and all that because you're
only going to be opening andhave been here six days out of
the whole year.
I said you can't anyway, so I'mnot worried about it, right?

(01:14:03):
I said you can't anyway, so I'mnot worried about it, right?
Um and uh.
So I promoted, I, I, theystopped me from promoting the
first time.
How?
Because I called the Avanale.
I called the because there wasa custody captain.
It used to be a lieutenant.
I had uh sat if he said well,we're not, I want to hire you
but I can't because there's thisthing with the ISU or something

(01:14:26):
going on, and so I didn't.
And then.

Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
so I waited Real quick to the viewers out there,
maybe new correctional officersthat haven't seen this quite yet
.
Does the department blockpromotions, transfers, special
assignments?
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
Yeah, the transfers, and they even do transfers that
they're not supposed to do.
Look at the people at ccwf.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
they had to suffer through all that, true no, but
they do block, oh, absolutely,through illegal means.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Oh, absolutely frivolous investigations yeah,
frivolous investigations um allkinds of uh you know word of
mouth.
Word of mouth smutting people'snames up, smutting their names
up and doing all that.
And then, yeah, I'm just amazedat what the department does to

(01:15:22):
people in their career that dothe right thing, that do the
right thing.
It's horrible.
I mean, both my buddy and I hadto go through all that?

Speaker 2 (01:15:33):
Do you think the department, the upper management
actually favor people that aremore moldable and willing to
jeopardize their ethics andvalues?

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
Well, yes, right now there's a lieutenant at CCWF,
more experience than all kindsof people, but they won't
promote her to captain becauseshe's too outspoken, she doesn't
play the game, she doesn'tdrink the Kool-Aid, she's too
outspoken and I'm just glad thatI was able to promote away from

(01:16:05):
.
That's the worst institutionI've ever seen, seriously, sadf.
I don't think so.
I thought, oh dude, it'shorrible, you don't know.
We're not even done with allthis stuff.
You want to know the stuff thatI know about SADF?

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
You got any more juicier than that or as juicy.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
Oh yeah got any more juicier than that or as juicy oh
yeah, we had a supposedly uh aa confidential was found on an
inmate's phone, but not theconfidential like he's taking
pictures of off the computerscreen.
They knew the number ofbuilding, three, the person's
from what I understand theperson's name, their

(01:16:43):
confidential.
One of them died was killednext door at quark at one jesus
christ dude and that person wasallowed to retire.
That was kind of the personthey investigation because
here's the thing they said.
Oh, I well know it was a sharedcomputer so we don't really

(01:17:06):
know who got on there, which isbull crap, because I know I had
ITs do forensic work when I wasa lieutenant at DVI.

Speaker 2 (01:17:14):
Explain to these newer cops what is the
difference between a good copand a bad cop Meaning hey, it's
okay to utilize a Mini-14 perpolicy and procedure when it
meets the deadly force criteria,versus do not give inmates
confidential information that'spurposely going to get other
people killed.

Speaker 1 (01:17:30):
You could, you should .
If you do that, if somebodydies, you should go to prison
for the rest of your life, 100%.
And so I kind of oh well, youknow that person retired.
Well, why wasn't thatinformation turned over to the
FBI?
And I know the department doesthat.

(01:17:50):
You know why, when I was a DVIand I was a lieutenant, I had a
staff member and what happenedis the M8, warden called me and
said hey, m8 escaped.
I said what?
What from the minimum outside?
No, from the from the innerperimeter.
I said no, there's no stinkingway.
We didn't have electric fence,but we had people at every tower

(01:18:12):
.
So I went, we went, I got putmy clothes, got there and they
the dude was working in metalshop during the day.
I said let's go over therebecause he's probably there.
So they searched in the rafters.
He's probably there.
So they searched in the rafters.
He had overdose onmethamphetamine.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
In the rafters.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
He was in the rafters of the metal shop.
He had butt naked, overdose, hehad crap all over himself.
He went to the hospital and wasin the hospital for three days
for acute methamphetamineintoxication.
In your humble opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
I know you're not a doctor, but do you think he went
to the rafters to get high ordo you think he got high and
then started fucking climbing upthe rafters?

Speaker 1 (01:18:50):
No, his clothes were down on the ground.

Speaker 2 (01:18:52):
Oh, okay.
So he got high on the groundand then climbed the rafters.
He crapped all over himselftook his clothes off.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
Well, anyway, he went to the hospital for three days.
So I said, you know what?
I'm going to look at thislieutenant and started looking.
And I looked and we could getfinancial information if it was
electronic.
So I seen, hey, he got $6,500from the money store at Walmart.

(01:19:19):
The lieutenant did, yeah, no,the teacher.
The teacher did the teacherthat was teaching that class.
So I anyway, push come to shove,I did the investigation, got
them on camera, Cause Walmarthas some killer, killer.
Uh, surveillance cameras,really killer, they can follow
you all the way to the parkinglot.
Anyway, got this dude gettingrunning and then I looked at the

(01:19:40):
people oh, those are my familymembers.
Hmm, you know, two and two anduh.
So, anyway, I got the MA comeback, I got him to roll I was
real good at getting him to rollso he rolled and uh, and so I
called away hey, we've gotenough for a search, search
warrant.
We can bust this dude, send himto jail, probably find more

(01:20:03):
dope and find money.
Well, he can't do that, it'sgoing to make the department
look bad.
I said, well, that's what we donow.
What year was this?
This was 2017, 18.
And so I know that the OIA is acrew hoots.

(01:20:24):
They protect what theheadquarters wants them to
protect, like that thing at SADFwith the confidential
memorandum and my two illegalsearch warrants Two illegal
search warrants you brush that.
All that stuff gets brushedunder the rug.

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
So I just got to address the public.
Right now, office of InternalAffairs is in cahoots with upper
management, cdcr, and they donot always do the right thing,
period no, I I mean, I'm notsaying they're, they're bad,
it's just well, you got badapples, it's a culture, it's

(01:21:00):
rough they headquarters controlswhat they do.
Yeah, it's like the GermanGestapo.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
Yeah, it's like yeah and yeah, you have some people
that get disciplined.
You know that deserve it.
Another thing from Sedef PopeyeRoman Danny Popeye.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
Roman you ever heard of him.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
Yeah, popeye Roman was stabbed to death on the yard
.
A guy came through from CSP,sac going to LA for court, so he
was just there for a short time.
So what happens to those guys?
Does anybody do you know whathappens to those guys when they
come in and they're not reallyclassified?

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
Oh you go and add, say you go, go to the hole or
they put him in the yard.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
They put him on the yard and he's on orientation
status.

Speaker 2 (01:21:49):
He can't go nowhere but take a shower maybe a phone
call priority, though you go tothe hole pending court and then,
yeah, put you on the yard.

Speaker 1 (01:21:56):
They put him on the yard and they they approved him
to go to the yard.
How do you do that?
They just oh, he's fine, he cango to the yard.
How do you do that?
They just said oh, he's fine,he can go to the yard.
That was one of the suspects inthe Popeye murder that was the
MA member that stabbed one ofthe.

Speaker 2 (01:22:09):
Alvarado Spy that stabbed him.

Speaker 1 (01:22:11):
Lennox Stabbed him to death.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
Holy shit, bro.
I had no Hold on.
He was housed at CSP, sac hewas.
He is out to court at SADF.
And technically, you're eithersupposed to be in the hole or be
kind of slammed for the mostpart.
Oh, but you know what?
I will say this that practicestarted coming on later on in
the future.
But why do you let him go toyour?
No, check this out, I hear you.

(01:22:35):
I was a lieutenant.
Yeah, we were getting thesedudes from Calipat.
This is fucking retarded andthis is why you shouldn't do it.
We were getting fucking levelfour GPs from Calipac going out
to court in San Diego and themanagement did not want any more
inmates in that sake.
That was the orders they gotfrom headquarters.
So we literally had AWs coolAWs too saying ah, fuck it, put

(01:22:58):
them on the yard, fuck it, putthem on.
And we're like no dude, I'm notputting them on the yard.
Yeah, because that was a newerlieutenant and the older ones
were telling me don't do that,man, put them in the hole.
Yeah, you don't want to eatthat.
So I didn't know that that dudewas out to court.

Speaker 1 (01:23:13):
Yeah, he was out to court, from what I understand.
Wow, I got a lot of friends allaround the department hear
stuff and see stuff, and I wasstill a lieutenant at dvi when
that happened, so so that, um,and then you have the case of
the inmate that came, wastransferred, was in cells, but

(01:23:33):
they transferred him to go tothe sny, level two the he told
the non-designated uh designatedsny and they send him.
It was a non-designated,designated, that's why.
And they send him and he tellsthe counselor where he came from
.
I forget I'm going to killsomebody if it's a child

(01:23:53):
molester, and then he goes tothe counselor on the yard.
I'm going to kill somebody ifit's a child molester.
Goes to the staff on the yard.
If it's a child molester, goesto the staff on the yard.
So he's in the unit and there'sa child molester watching I
don't know some kid's show orsomething.

(01:24:14):
Anyway, he walks up to him andbeats him to death with the cane
.
What year was this?
Oh, it was probably 20, 21.
And you were, and yeah, Iwasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
I wasn't at sattiff.
This was at sattiff, okay I?
I looked at the pictures ofthat incident.
He killed two child molestersand then he walked out, looked
around no staff in the buildingand went back and said you know
I'm gonna give me another one,and went, got another one.

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
You know what?
I'm going to get me another oneand went and got another one.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
There was brains all over the floor, skull hair it
was horrible.

Speaker 1 (01:24:48):
So who's responsible?

Speaker 2 (01:24:51):
Who's responsible?
Well, in the case of a deadchild molester, you know that's
just doing the Lord's work, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:24:59):
And it's one of those things where you're like okay,
but still Right.
It's one of those things whereyou're like, okay, but still.
If it's threat, violence and hesays I'm going to kill somebody
, what do you do?
You just say, oh, okay,whatever, go kill somebody.
Like DVI with Jared LozanoCorrect, I worked at DVI.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
Let me ask you an honest question.
Honest, fair question.
I worked at the NBA, so let meask you an honest question.
Honest, fair question how manydeaths could have been prevented
if people had just acted aroundballpark?

Speaker 1 (01:25:33):
percentage, fair amount well, here's another
thing at.
I didn't tell you about theother case.
So the same isu cop was talkingto a guy I I know I seen her
talk to him.
I worked overtime.
We worked overtime in the samebuilding um, and kept pulling
this inmate out.
Talked to him Guy by the nameof Flaco Zavala, and one day I

(01:26:02):
was I forget where I was at Iwasn't there, I was sick, I had
to have my son sick, but mysergeant says they were
responding to a homicide inBuilding 2.
Guess who it was.
Who, flaco Zavala.
After the ISU cop had talked toher so much, I guess he was
warned stop.
But he was trying to get somesome of that.

(01:26:25):
You know what prison was thissad?

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
if still talking about sad, if you think they're
all that great, no, they're notanyway no, I didn't say they
were all that great well,especially after watching that
fresno bulldog integration but Ijust said there's some pretty
fucked up prisons out there,donovan, csp, sag.

Speaker 1 (01:26:41):
It's always been one of them and their thing is to
retaliate.
Well, anyways, zavala was dude.
It was brutal.
You should have seen thatweapon made out of.
They did the soap thing withthe metal shelf and cut it out
and then put soap in Was it atwo-on-one or.
It was well, they don't know.

(01:27:02):
But yeah, it was two-on-onebecause there was a couple, two
or three were on one because thedude they were, all you know,
transferred put in thatsignature.
Where was the?

Speaker 2 (01:27:10):
body at.
Where was the body found?
In the day room the body was.
They just found the body.

Speaker 1 (01:27:14):
Well, what they did was they responded and he was
there and the day room was out.
And then so later on there wasan inmate, they had a
confidential and made that guyunreliable.
Made him unreliable, huh yeah,made him unreliable.
And then those two sergeantsthat sergeant and officer were
fired later for some.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
That's so weird, dude .
I don't know what the hell'sgoing on there.
Now that you mentionedeverything that you're
mentioning, it's almost like Idon't want to believe you, but I
know for a fact that shit likethis does happen.

Speaker 1 (01:27:41):
Yeah, and so anyway, that whole thing was part of and
you know it's funny, in thecost of murder and the result of
murder, who's the leadinvestigator?
She is, and investigator she is.
And I even heard a videotape ofan inmate saying she asked an
inmate at another prison why washe killed?

(01:28:04):
Because my cellmate said thatit was because of you.
I told her it's because youwere talking to him.
What was ultimately her fate?

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
Did she get fired?

Speaker 1 (01:28:18):
No, she just continued to work, continued to
work and then, eventually,because of the pressure, she
left ISU.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
But she continued to remain a peace officer.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
Yeah, and then she went to Bravo Yard, I think, or
something like that.
So weird dude, she resigned,resigned or retired, I think she
resigned.
I don't think she resigned orretired.
I think she resigned.
I don't think she was oldenough to retire, but she
might've been, I don't know.
But um, yeah, the whole thing,uh with with your experience.

Speaker 2 (01:28:44):
I want to um bring up a couple of uh relevant
newsworthy events from yourperspective.
The escape of level four inmate, cesar Hernandez, who escaped
from Kern Valley State Prison ona transportation run to the
courthouse yeah what are some ofthe deficiencies you observed
through?

Speaker 1 (01:29:15):
that whole incident or the California model marring
the lines of officer and inmate,we'll get relaxed.
Well, this dude's good with me,he's cool with me and all that.
You forget who they are.
To maintain your highestsecurity with with him checking

(01:29:38):
him, make sure he ain't got nocuff key in his pocket, make
sure he ain't got no cuff key inhis mouth, make sure he ain't
got no cuff key in his nose, umthat type of thing.
And and to keep that line andkeep your ultimate um, I will
tell you what I did and I knowthat the policy has changed.
But when I used to take guysout that had any kind of uh,

(01:30:02):
escape history, I said, hey, Iwould stop in the sally port to
give a weapon, come back in andsay I'm gonna tell you something
.
I shoot and I don't miss you.
Take off, I'm gonna shoot youin the head, I ain't gonna miss.
I would tell him that and theyoungsters would be like, why
did you do that?
I said because I want to takethat thing out of his brain I

(01:30:24):
don't think that was ever withinpolicy.

Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
Yeah too, no, that wasn't.
Yeah, you weren't ever able totell him that before within
policy.

Speaker 1 (01:30:32):
What back then?
Yeah, probably not, of courseyou weren't, but still, I hear
what you're saying.
Was I always perfect ineverything I did?

Speaker 2 (01:30:43):
No, because you started off the conversation by
saying hey, man, I know thepolicy has changed, but this is
what I used to tell them.
I'm like no, that wasn't everthe policy.
No, no, that wasn't ever thepolicy.

Speaker 1 (01:31:00):
What I'm saying is you can't shoot them now, even
if they're running.
Oh, that's what you're saying.
Yeah, you can't shoot.
You can't shoot them now.
Okay, let me give you anexample.
When I was at when I'm sorryabout that, yeah, I talk fast
sometimes, but anyway, no, uh,when I was a dvi, I had to
escape.
So I was the isu, I was theinterim incident commander, so I
I'm getting everybody to goready to go out was a minimum.
But here's the thing yousupervisors, don't just send

(01:31:21):
people out, talk to them,because what I do I told them
okay, here's a scenario.
You run across this dude andhe's running across the field.
What are you going to do?
And the guy says I'm going toshoot him with the main and hit
him.
I said are you kidding?
How are you going to justifythat?
He's not a threat to you oranybody else, right?
Here's another scenario.

(01:31:41):
It's during the day.
Kids are in the playground andhe's jumping the fence to go
over to the kids to take a.

Speaker 2 (01:31:49):
To me.
It's all how you can articulateit.
That is an imminent threat.

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):
I'm going to shoot him because I thought he was
going to take a hostage from thekids.
It's all how you articulate it,as long as the kids aren't in
the direction of the shot,Correct?
You have to know this stuff.
You can't just oh there he is,Shoot him Right, absolutely.
You call on the radio.
Tell the SSU and other peoplewhere the dude's at?

Speaker 2 (01:32:26):
Damn, that shit made me laugh, bro.
Talking about, uh, the policypolicy.
Well, no, I meant you know,correct now.
Um, another notable incidentwas a recent murder at salinas
valley state prison, where twonorth angels brutally murdered a
victim for two and a halfminutes and the mini 14 was
never utilized.
What are are some issues thatyou see may have arise there.

Speaker 1 (01:32:41):
Well, you, you have a job.
Okay, I understand that you'regoing to, you're going to go
through an investigation andyou're going to go to defit,
we're going to have all thatkind of stuff.
But if you don't know, I gonnause this mini 14.
If you don't know, if thishappens or that happens, if you

(01:33:03):
don't know, don't get up there,do not be in the gun.
Um, that's awful, because thatdude was brutally murdered.
His I'm sure his family had toget his body back.
They did.
They did Not that I love you atBates or anything.

Speaker 2 (01:33:19):
No, it's preservation .
It's just, you got a job.
It's preservation of life andthat's in the dom.

Speaker 1 (01:33:24):
And you know it's just, but you got to know ahead
of time.
If you're not going to do that,then don't get in the stinking
gun.
But I know, hey, I'm a sergeantand I got this, then go don't
get in the stinking gun.
But I know, hey, I'm a sergeantand I got this peak.
I just don't have picos anymore.
You know, yeah, pies, I havethis new cop.

(01:33:44):
I need to fill a spot.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
I'm just yeah, it's all about filling spots and
getting running program yeah,and that's to me if you were on
the street.

Speaker 1 (01:33:53):
You're not going to send some rookie to Compton by
himself.
He's going to have a trainingsergeant or a training officer
and he's going to, especially atnight.
You don't just send anybodyanywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:34:07):
That was a good analogy, because what you have
right now are not only rookiesin Compton, but rookies in Skid
Row.
In Compton, everybody's gettingfucking crazy, crazy and they
don't have a clue yeah, you knowI don't that should be like
that with the department.

Speaker 1 (01:34:23):
Hey, don't don't send , don't put somebody there if
they don't have the experience.

Speaker 2 (01:34:27):
They're more concerned about having
daddy-daughter dances.
Yeah, they're more concernedabout not safety and security.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It's just fast forward.
You were a sergeant at theacademy.
What was the lesson plan likethen?
What was the curriculum versus?
Did they give you guys theauthority, as sergeants, to free
ball it and shoot from the hip?

Speaker 1 (01:34:49):
you're you okay, so you give them what they need to
graduate okay okay.
Okay, so PCA 32 post, and yougot to some of the use of force,
report writing, differentthings like that, things that
they had to test on.
But then you give them yourexperience, you fit it in.

(01:35:10):
You don't just get up therehere's a PowerPoint, right, and
you know, read the whole thing.
You tell them them, hey, thishappens, this is, you know, this
is your effective communication.
You know, this is this is how Igive them instances.
I had a guy that was, you know,gonna assault me and I, we just
sat, I just talked to him youknow that type of thing and I

(01:35:33):
spoke, I maintained my distanceand I was ready to fight.
And then I let the gunner knowhey, I got a little thing going
on right here and so I wouldgive him.

Speaker 2 (01:35:47):
Do you know what was a huge problem and probably
around the time frame?
What year did you teach at theacademy?

Speaker 1 (01:35:53):
2013 to 2015.

Speaker 2 (01:35:55):
Okay, definitely after your timeframe.
This around 2018, we weregetting brand new cadets from
the academy who were gettingpunched in the mouth by inmates
and still trying to verballydeescalate.
This was plaguing thedepartment and we kept telling
them what are you guys doing?
Well, they told us at theacademy they want us to verbally

(01:36:16):
de-escalate.

Speaker 1 (01:36:18):
I said fuck no and so when I was at dvi as a
lieutenant they had they werehitting the cell my cops, four
of them.
I was with the sergeant in theday room and uh, not to speak, I
had the dude at dvi had thebest.
Some about three or four ofthem, are SSU agents now, but

(01:36:38):
they were awesome, every singleone of them.
But anyway they went up.
It was an Asian cell that theysupposedly had phones and dope
or something and I was watchingand I just always went with my
troops I didn't sit in my officeand drink coffee, so anyway I

(01:36:59):
could see them like jawing atthis dude and I said something's
going on.
So I ran up those steps, leftmy sergeant behind.
I ran up those steps and I toldthe M8, it was on the top bunk
with one cuff and the officerwas well, they were trying to
order him.
I just said cuff up, we'regoing to pull you off that bunk.

(01:37:23):
So I cuffed him up.
We back to the office.
But I just told him look, whatwas that all about?
Well, we're supposed toverbally de-escalate.
I said we had a de-investigatorin the office.
I said, hey, when you're on thestreet and you get to cuff one
dude cuff his arm and he startsto fight.

(01:37:43):
Where does he go?
He said on the ground.
I said I don't care, pull himoff that bunk, I'll run into it.
You have every single thing inthe use of force criteria.
He's an attacker because he'sgot a one cuff.
He's resisting.
You're trying to affect custody.
You're giving him orders,everything's there check, check,

(01:38:05):
check.

Speaker 2 (01:38:05):
That's right, check, check.
That's.
What you have to do is mentallycheck the blocks to use force.
Is he hitting these fuckingmarks, yes or no?
Use it, pull him down.

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
I don't care if he hits his head or whatever.
Here's the thing, and I knowyou don't like him, but ron
davis one time was in in when Iwas at vsp.
Uh, we were doing use of force.
I was his isu sergeant.
So I was sitting in use offorce and the administrators are
saying, well, yeah, but they,the inmate broke his nose.

(01:38:35):
I love Ron, I just do.
But anyway, he said really, hesaid was a force reasonable and
necessary?
They said, yeah, that's all Icare about, I don't care what
happened to him.
If he broke his nose, broke hisface, broke his arm, it doesn't
matter, I'm shocked, as long asit's reasonable and necessary.

(01:38:57):
That guy to me, when I had him.
I'm shocked.
He said that when I had him,when he was with me at VSP, he
was awesome, him and Rick Field,they were both.

Speaker 2 (01:39:08):
As we wind down, and I told you in the beginning
we're going to discuss do peoplechange when in the department?
What rank was Ron Davis at thatpoint in time?
He was a warden, yeah, Okay,Because when he was an associate
director he sat right next tome and told us you guys cannot
put handcuffs on inmates if theytell you they do not want

(01:39:29):
handcuffs to be put on them.
Well, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:39:32):
No, no, no, that happened, he was right here.

Speaker 2 (01:39:34):
Yeah, no, no, no, that happened.
Yeah, he was right here, nothat definitely did happen.

Speaker 1 (01:39:37):
People could definitely change.
People could change I mean thesecretary we just had.
I think he just got worse andworse.
Now McCumber, ruff, dias,correct, okay.
So anybody out there, go lookat the real chit, because he's
got some interesting informationabout Ralph Dias and the AW

(01:39:59):
that I was involved with Samething.

Speaker 2 (01:40:01):
So what advice do you have to correctional officers,
being men or women, humans, whenit comes to the job and or the
way you conduct yourself?
Should you be consistentthrough and through yes, or
should you change?
Consistent through and through,yes, or should you change up,
like some of the people weretalking, no, here's the thing I
never all the way to lieutenant.

Speaker 1 (01:40:21):
When I was at, I talked to the officers and just
the same as I did when I was,you know, an officer, because I
wanted them to learn I would.
They would come through withcossets and I would stop them in
the rotunda, dvi, and say, okay, where is your loyalty?
I want to know.
I know God, your family?

(01:40:43):
No, I'm talking about thedepartment.
They said well, my partner, mysergeant, the warden?
I said absolutely not.
I said you're going to liftyour hand and swear at the
academy to uphold the laws ofthe state of California and the
constitution?
Those are the two things you'reloyal to.

(01:41:03):
Because what happens if yoursergeant, your partner, the
secretary, the warden turn dirtyand they're doing things to
violate those two things?
Because Title 15 is law, right,penal code is law, penal code

(01:41:23):
is law.
So you have to know if they'redoing something or asking you to
do something that is not right.
Don't do it.
Will you be under investigationfor insubordination?
Maybe?

Speaker 2 (01:41:37):
Oh, you will.

Speaker 1 (01:41:38):
And the reason, the reason I came two reasons to
glorify jesus christ.
Thank you, because he, he's myeverything and he has helped me
along the way um, it's actuallybeen been the one that do things
.
And then two, the safety of thepeople that work in the

(01:42:00):
department.
And maybe another thing we havepeople out there that pay taxes
to an entity that's supposed todo the right thing.
We should expect that from them.
And if you just sit on yourhands, that's what's happened.
People just sit on their handsand they don't get active.

(01:42:22):
Write your congressman, writeyour senator.
Hey, I'm not going to vote foryou anymore if you keep letting
this stuff go on.
Gavin Newsom, he ain't going tochange.
Correct, that's the only waythe department's going to change
If we change the governor.
Well, first of all, it's aspiritual battle.
Facts, it's a spiritual battleand prayer having people turn.

(01:42:47):
A lot more young people areturning to God a lot and I think
things will begin to change.
But we need a new governor, weneed a new organization for the
department.
They need to restructure it.
They need to say look, we'regoing to hold everybody to the

(01:43:08):
highest integrity.
They need to take internalaffairs and put it on another
entity, because with noconnection to the department, so
that from an OA to thesecretary they can do everything
the same as far as discipline.
But right now I don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:24):
How do?

Speaker 1 (01:43:24):
you get an AW that does the right thing at SADF and
says, look, they're going toget killed if they come on the
yard.
And then you put a plan of opswith ambulances on standby
because you know it's going tobe a what is it?
A mass casualty event.
How do you do that?
And then in that AW, after shedoes the right thing, you put
her in the mail room.

Speaker 2 (01:43:45):
So you're?
First of all, you hit the nailon the head with everything you
just said.
Right now, man, that wasperfect and immaculate, but
right now you started touchingabout the Fresno Bulldog
integration at SADF.
But right now you startedtouching about the Fresno
Bulldog integration at SADF.
You're telling me there was anAW that spoke up and spoke
against the integration andtherefore found herself in the
mailroom.

Speaker 1 (01:44:03):
From what I heard, told the warden hey, this is
going to happen, Just brush itunder the rug.
Okay, From what I heard, thisperson sent emails to the
headquarters.
Connie Gibson your favorite,that's another winner in my book
, and so that came back down onher and here's how it did.

(01:44:28):
When the whole plan was to havethem come in escorted, with
officers on the yard.
Why would you do that, for onething, and why would you do it
the way?
Just let them all in, take someof them or escort them to the
building.
Then you have a small incidentNot all of them get killed.

Speaker 2 (01:44:51):
Real quick and I don't mean to laugh.
What did you think when you sawvideo footage of the Prenton
Bulldogs?
Just get in just on their ownright there.
I'm like, yeah, here.

Speaker 1 (01:45:00):
Hey, we're going to go.
It's like the you watchGladiator, yeah.
Oh did he walk into the thingall by himself.
That's fucked up, man.
That's not right.
He walked in.
Oh, anyway, they walk in andthey're looking around.
We'll go this way.
Oh, there's inmates over there.
We'll go this way.
Anyway, what made me laugh, notlaugh?
No, not laugh, because it's notfunny but shake my head was if

(01:45:27):
you watch the whole thing, thegas and everything didn't come
to.
All the inmates were gone andthey just gassed the Bulldogs.
But anyway, how that happenedis nobody escorted them.
The lieutenant said, hey look,just let them in.
So the lieutenant actuallychanged the plan of operation.
I will say this, though even hadthey been escorted, they still

(01:45:48):
would have kicked it off becausewe experienced the same thing,
and then the officers would havebeen in the way you and I know
I don't know if you've ever seenthe video of them escorting the
bulldog in salinas valley andthere was 30 serenios and they
did not see that they rushed.
This is like when I started okay, I did they rushed the um, the

(01:46:08):
bulldog is and, uh, they toldthe officers get out of the way,
get out of the way, get out ofthe way.
What do you do, man?
They tried, but they still gotthe dude.
But you don't want yourofficers in the way getting hurt
.
Here's what you do in thatsituation anybody you take okay,
say you got three of thosebulldogs that were housed in

(01:46:29):
this building I don't know ifthey were all housed, I don't
know if they were all housedtogether or whatever you take
them and escort them and then ifit kicks off, it's just those.
They say, okay, you know what,we're not continuing to do this
because they're going to getattacked.

Speaker 2 (01:46:43):
Yeah, then you have enough reason to say you got to
go on ad sec pending safetyconcerns.
Possible safety concerns.

Speaker 1 (01:46:48):
Well, that should have been done from the
beginning.
Facts, because you have aconfidential information.
They're all making.
They're making weapons.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
It's going to be the Norteños and Serenos, and it's a
conspiracy to commit attemptedmurder and or murder or to
batter other inmates and thenand we know what's going to
happen, so we'll just put acouple of ambulances on standby.

Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
How do you do that?
Well, anyway, and then, fromwhat I heard, a lot of the
people administrators were inISU watching the live cameras
like they're watching stinkingWWE, you know what I mean?
And then the captain askedsomebody that's what I heard
that hey, you want me to put theyard down there?
Everybody's grouping.

(01:47:31):
Nah, let it go.
It's going to happen.
Let it happen, Needs to happen,Whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:47:35):
So that is wild man.
Well, I want to thank you fortraveling abroad.
All the way over here, mansitting down and conversing with
me.
I would have loved to touchmore on your experience from
working the line as a sergeantlieutenant academy, but I felt
like we needed to give all thatexperience.
Dude of lessons, lessons forthese youngsters.

Speaker 1 (01:47:55):
Lessons and just from the people that are out there
at the academy learn what youneed to learn to.
I have gotten to speak like twoor three times to my old cadets
company.
I just told them hey, do whatyou need to do to graduate, but

(01:48:15):
have the mindset that you'regoing to go in every day, every
day, and be alert, learn, askcops, read the title 15, get to
know it.
It saved me a few times in mycareer and, and you know, just
just just.
Be good partner, get thereearly for your relief.

(01:48:38):
Sometimes you get relieved late, but don't change your attitude
about it.
And I prayed every day.
I would go with a gun and prayevery day.
Pray for my partner's safety,pray for mine.

Speaker 2 (01:49:00):
And was I a perfect man?

Speaker 1 (01:49:01):
now I'm not, but but I still love people, that I have
a lot of friends that are stillin the department and I have
cadets that I they've graduatedwith me and people that I've run
across and, uh, I care aboutthem and I want to see them
succeed.
And you know, if you ever needany advice, you need to get a

(01:49:21):
hold of me.
One of the things I would leavethe cadets is my phone number.
When I spoke, you know, evenlately, and I said call me If
you feel like committing suicideor something's getting too
overwhelming, call me I.
You feel like committingsuicide or something's getting
too overwhelming, call me.
I'm always.
I'm retired.
You know I deal with sheep andI mean goats and chickens, but

(01:49:44):
call me because I had a lot of,I had some really good friends
commit suicide because it wastoo much for them.

Speaker 2 (01:49:50):
No, I hear you, man.
If you're comfortable with it,I'll link your Instagram or
whatever you let me link sopeople can get a hold of you,
that's absolutely the, the, youknow the the thing, then, and
and this world is not going toget any better, it's getting
worse.

Speaker 1 (01:50:04):
Yeah, and there's corruption everywhere.
But thing is uh, jesus saidsomething put your treasure in
heaven so nobody can touch it.
Facts Clothes we have, money wehave can go, but if you send
your life ahead to heaven, toJesus Christ, that life's

(01:50:25):
forever and maybe things won'tchange around you because it's
corruption.
Right, it's going to get worse.
It's like a piece of meatthat's rotting, but your life
can be better.
Facts your life can overcomeall of that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:42):
Well, I want to thank you, kenny, for coming.
Man, it was perfect timing.
I had a pleasure conversingwith you, dude, dropping
knowledge as always, and you'realways welcome to come back and
visit me.

Speaker 1 (01:50:52):
No, I would love to.
I I had I don't know how longit's been, but I have so much
more I I could share, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:51:04):
So we're gonna save it for next time, man, but thank
you, that was two hours.
I told you that was gonna gofast.
So there you guys have it.
Folks, I keep doing it for youguys, man, and thanks to people
like kenny that are coming allthe way over here and giving
their experiences to help others, just as God would have wanted.
So if you like what you saw,make sure you hit that subscribe
button.
Love you, keep pushing forward.

Speaker 1 (01:51:35):
Story never ends.

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