September 4, 2025 • 55 mins
RSVP Today for Heliona Live: Workplace Unfiltered: A Heliona Experience
Retention isn’t just about paychecks or perks—it’s about creating cultures where people feel supported, inspired, and connected to purpose.
In this episode of Heliona Insight, I sit down with Tarnu Mulbah, founder of Dwell Real Estate, seasoned sales leader, and passionate advocate for “making purpose popular.” With over 14 years of experience driving growth, mentoring teams, and navigating high-pressure industries, Tarnu has seen firsthand how retention and mental health directly impact performance.
We unpack what leaders often get wrong about keeping talent, why mental health can no longer be sidelined, and how connecting people to purpose transforms both individuals and organizations. If you’re looking for actionable insight on building teams that last, this conversation is for you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Everything rises and falls on leadership.
OK, me as a leader, I'm taking extreme ownership of my
organization, right? But then every leader taking
extreme ownership of their side.And what I mean by that, do I
feel, do they feel empowered that they can come and talk to
me about ideas? Do they feel empowered that to
come and talk to me about like, hey, I didn't appreciate how
that was talked to me, but they feel like they can come and have
(00:22):
that conversation, not from a complaint, but being solution
minded, right, to make it better.
And I think sometimes we think like, OK, hey, that person's
performing. Oh well then boom, slap a
manager, roll on them. Yes, they're performing.
But do they, to your point, are they equipped to teach what
they've been able to do? Just because I'm an incredible
soccer player doesn't make me a great coach.
(00:47):
Retention is not solved by perksor quick fixes.
It's rooted in culture, purpose and mental health.
My guest today is Tanu MOBA, founder of Dual Real Estate and
former SAS sales leader, who's built and LED teams through
rapid growth, high pressure, andmajor transitions over more than
(01:09):
14 years in leadership, he's seen first hand how retention
depends less on compensation packages and more on whether
people feel supported, inspired,and connected to something
bigger than themselves. In this episode, Tano and I
unpack what leaders often get wrong about keeping their
people, why mental health cannotbe enough to time, and how
(01:33):
making purpose popular can transform both performance and
culture. If you're leading A-Team or
building a business, this conversation will give you a
fresh perspective on what it really takes to keep great
people and help them drive. So let's get into it.
(01:58):
Hello. Hello.
I apologize for interrupting your listening experience.
But. This is worth it.
Stay with me. On October 15, we are bringing
Workplace unfiltered Heliona experience that is the Heliona
Life podcast. The top five guests, the most
listened guests will be in a roundtable discussion on October
15 in downtown Kansas City. Shout out to Chicago, Iowa,
(02:22):
Illinois. Thank you guys for always tuning
in. But I want you to picture this
one night with leaders from across the country, HR
professionals, mental health providers, and you, the
listener, all in the same room for unfiltered conversation
about performance and mental health.
It's life, it's going to be honest.
(02:44):
And yes, you can be part of it. So make sure to RSVP today at
heliona dot IO. That's HELI ona dot IO.
Or you can visit the show notes right now and make sure to RSVP
on the event page. We only have a block for 50
people exclusive to my listenersand LinkedIn followers.
(03:05):
We'd love for you guys to be to show up October 15 and I'd love
to meet everyone there. The food developer drinks
coffee. Amazing time.
Dolls open at 4:30 PM Central time.
So again, visit heliona dot IO to learn more or visit the show.
Notes and cheers all. Right.
So Tanu, I like to talk about, especially on this podcast, most
(03:30):
of the conversation that we haveis centered around mental
health, you know, like retention.
And I know you've worked in those and not specifically
mental health, but as a leader, you've worked with people where
you have to be in charge of someaspect of their well-being.
And I want to take your, you know, like TCS around just what
is the correlation between mental health and also retaining
(03:52):
your people as a leader? Yeah, deep question.
You know, I mean which is, whichis good.
So I talked to a lot of therapists.
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, honestly, but
leaders with leadership, there is a therapy aspect, right?
At least the good ones, right? You know, 'cause I can, at the
end of the day, there's positional leaders, right?
Which is, hey, I'm just, I've just got my title and look at
(04:14):
me, I've got my title. So you should respond to my
leadership because I'm qualified.
I got the title, right? But then there's true
leadership, right, which you're leading people, which is
honestly center around all of what you talked about.
And so I think at the end of theday, I feel that people retain
when they feel, when they feel valued, right, You know, and,
(04:36):
and so I think at the end of theday, when you're leading people
is finding the individual aspects of that person.
What are what are their goals? What are they wanting, right?
Where are they trying to, where are they trying to go?
And can I help them get to that path?
And at the end of the day, when they feel like they're in a
position that's helping them getto where they want to go, they
stay right? But but it also, you know, STEM
(04:59):
as a, as a leader, you know, I think about you being a pressure
relief, a release valve, right? You know, often times people
don't quit jobs, they quit leaders, right?
At least that's what I've experienced.
You know, I work, you know, gosh, I mean like like very vast
background with within corporateAmerica, outside of corporate
America. You know, I, I remember when I
(05:20):
was running, you know, I was at the start up, it's called Fifted
and which I started there as a sales Rep, moved up to, you
know, an SDR manager and then ended up being like the VP of
sales with a bunch of sales reps, right.
And so, but it reminds me of like people responded, you know,
when there was positive pressurethat was put on, right?
(05:42):
And then when negative pressure was put on, they left.
Does that make sense? Right.
And, and so at the end of the day, it's just OK, who, who am I
working with? Who are they?
What are they dealing with, right?
And then how can I help to create an environment that
allows them to be the best version of them?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just said that last
night I was actually making riceand I have the rice cooker.
(06:02):
Yeah. And then I'll, you know, that
that's like the little pressure that you have to open.
So my wife, I usually make rice the old school, I just use the
pan water. Yes.
And then I boil, then I put the rice, you know, and I add a
bunch of seasoning to, to make it taste the way that I I grew
up eating rice in Africa, 100%. So she used rice cooker.
So last night I was tired and I wanted to use the rice cooker.
(06:24):
I don't know how to use it. Yeah.
And then I burned the rice and she was like, you forgot to open
the pressure. Yeah.
So as you're saying that just the pressure, you know, like
analogy of just working with people.
If you apply the wrong pressure,you know, people are going to
leave same to that rice cooker. Yes, I I did not open the valve
in in time. So if everything burns 100.
(06:45):
Percent your your people. Burn, not burn as a rice cooker.
But no, no. But you're right though, right?
I think, you know, at the end ofthe day, it's like, you know,
you and I are kind of talking about this before we even get
started. I think people want to be a part
of something more and more so than ever today, right?
If you look at this generation of people, the first thing that
(07:06):
like on interviews that I'd have, they would be talking
about like, OK, yes, there's themoney aspect, OK, I want to make
money, etcetera. But like our parents generation,
it was more about, OK, what's the job and how much is it going
to pay? Right?
And then they're they they're they're OK with the negatives
because they sacrificed it for just getting a paycheck, right?
(07:29):
And it's just, yeah, it's just part for the course.
It's like, OK, this is just partof me working when now it's
completely flipped down, right? You know, you've got more
opportunities that's out there than ever before in my opinion,
right? There's a lot of different
things that are out there, but retaining the right people when
they feel valued. But then they also, it's not
dragging, right? I think as a leader you got to
(07:52):
and it's the same thing with my kids.
Like I've got a son who's incredible, like same as Moses,
incredible soccer player. Right.
Yeah, yeah, I saw the videos. Come on now, He's good.
Yeah, he's a good, good player. But like, you know, he, we,
we're finding unique ways, me asa parent to make the journey and
the work part of the journey fun.
(08:15):
That makes sense, right? How do you, how do you create
that? Like 'cause like it sucks, you
know, you know, waking up at 6:00 AM and going through what
he's doing right now, right? All that stuff.
But how do I remind that him that that's part of the process
and how do we create a fun aspect or how does it, how do we
get it to a point where he in his mind, he's thinking that
what I'm doing is contributing to what's going on.
(08:35):
And it's not just a task, right?People are the same way, right?
When you're leading people, it'shonest, it's the same way as you
are, you're, you're parenting ina way, right?
You know, And, and so it's the same thing.
So it's like, OK, when they're part of that journey, they're
experiencing that pressure or they're experiencing adversity,
OK. Does it go to a negative mindset
that this is an attack on who I am?
(08:56):
Right. Wow, you know what I mean.
And is this an attack on my identity, right?
Or is this just part of the process?
And how do we create that suck as in a positive light?
Does that make sense? Yeah, Yeah, it makes sense cuz I
played soccer and I never enjoyed it because my dad, you
know, he played soccer during his time and he and he just put
(09:17):
me through the whole process. I actually came to the US to
play for UMKC. That's why I'm, I'm here.
But the moment I had an opportunity because he wasn't
around anymore, I just quit right away.
I was like, Nope, there's no onehere telling me you need to wake
up and do this. And I left right away.
And, and even now as a parent, one of my, you know, my son, my
first son, Mercy, I also wanted him to play soccer.
(09:39):
I bought all this ball, but he has no interest in sports
whatsoever. He likes to build Legos.
He's the smartest kid ever. He he's seven years old and he's
already like reading like Harry Potter books, but he loves to
read because as a baby I would sit with him and and read all
the time and I wanted to make that as a habit.
But now he's like it got to a point when I'm like running away
(10:00):
because we read so much and he loves reading so much, but I get
so exhausted. I I enjoy the process, but
imagine reading every day. Come on, 7 year old.
He loves reading and, but you know, so you know, some part of
me, I know I had like that element of my dad where I was
like, maybe I should just push him a little bit.
And I remember taking him to, tolike soccer camp and he was
(10:22):
screaming and underground to point that he motivated all the
other kids to scream with him. And I'm saying, you know what,
let me not do the same thing that my dad did.
So I took him off of that program and, and now I'm just
working with him. A few weeks ago, I saw him like
kicking a soccer ball and I was like, yes, yes, it's happening
guys. And my wife was like, just don't
(10:42):
put pressure. Just let him be.
Let him find this sport if he's interested.
But I'm just waiting as a leader.
So I can see that as a way that you are talking about just the
pressure aspect of working with teams.
Another aspect that I want to talk about is like growth,
because I know you've worked with sales, you've worked in
different levels of sales and you've lead so many teams.
But like when you look back, like what role did like
(11:04):
retention play? Especially when you're
transitioning from one team to another, Like what do you see
happen? Especially because I know as you
progress from different roles, meaning you were either leaving
a few people to progress to the next role and now you were the
leader working with them. Like how did retention play out
for you personally and then alsofor the teams that you had to
(11:26):
lead at the at each level? Yeah.
I mean, I mean, we those, you know, there were times where we
felt like it was a revolving door, right?
You know, like, OK, hey, we bring them on, burn them out
after six months, seven months, a year.
Then it's just like revolving door over and over and over and
over again, right? And so when there's, it goes
back to, OK, there's, there's a vision, right?
(11:48):
You know, it's like first and foremost, what's the vision,
cause and purpose, right? As corny as that may sound, no.
I like that it's not my brain works.
Yeah, exactly. Right.
But I think that so oftentimes it goes back to just how to
what's your thought process of leadership as a whole, Right.
And going back to our kids too. You know, I've I've got a
daughter that she quit soccer and said it was because she was
(12:10):
like, dad, I don't like to sweat.
Wow, right. But but she's also the person
that now she's playing soccer because it's her idea, right?
Yeah. And, and so it's, it, it goes
back to, OK, am I pushing or am I pulling?
If I'm pushing, then I'm forcingpeople to do what they don't
want to do. But if they're feeling, if
there's a pull, then then peopleare progressing in a, in a, in a
(12:35):
way that, that they're moving towards that.
And it, and it makes sense like this because at the end of the
day, like the people that I LED and and I'm leading today, my
aim and my hope is that they feel that I as a leader, you
know, am that me being in their life, they're going to have
betterment, whether it be in and, and here's the thing too.
(12:55):
They also know that they can leave at any point, right,
right. And but they know that I'm going
to invest in them as if they're being with me forever, right?
And and so, you know, so you know, I have another
conversation with somebody like,and you spend so much time with
people, right? You know, like you spend so much
time investing in people, developing people, you're
(13:16):
patient with people like aren't you going to waste?
Like aren't you wasting your time if they leave and say,
well, if I don't make that investment in that person, what
if and they don't develop and they don't grow?
What if they stay? Oh wow, you.
Know and so so I think it's it'shaving an abundance mentality
that OK, I'm going to help develop them for when they are
(13:36):
ready. They're they're typically
overqualified for their current position that they're at now,
right. And then the natural next
progression step is to get promoted.
And where, where I'm going with it is that if I as a leader in
my, if I'm the one that if, if, if the only way they can succeed
in my organization is to can succeed, succeed is if I'm a
(13:58):
part of it, then it's so dependent on me, right?
And so, but if I can help createduplication with that
individual, with certain aspects, with systems, etcetera.
If I you remove that me out of the equation, can the train
still run right. And and my goal as a leader is
if I can, just me being in thereis just adding louder fluid to a
(14:20):
fire that's already burning. Yeah.
So when it comes to the retention aspect, if people are
developing, right, we had a scenario where we, we did have
budget to create to really hire managers for one organization
that was part of. So we just built a structure of
team leads, right? And I treated those team leads
(14:41):
as if they are managers, right, right.
Knowing that there's hey, there's a potential that you,
that you have the ability to grow.
And also if, if this, and if I even told them this, I was like,
if this isn't the right role foryou, at least now you're
prepared for whenever you do go and interview, whatever you can
talk about your experience that you had leading people even in
this small facet, right? And so lo and behold, right
(15:03):
then, when the budget came, we were already prepared because
we've already been preparing them mentally.
Does that make sense? No, Yeah, that makes perfect
sense. So, so then then there becomes a
path. Does that make sense?
Because if I come, if somebody comes in my organization, they
can see the path of OK, here's what it looks like, here's the
road map. Yeah, if I do this, I get this.
If I do this and I get this, right?
(15:24):
And and then I know that there is a line.
And there's also multiple paths too, right?
Yeah, I can go down this path orI could go down this path,
right? And, and at least they see it.
Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense.
You actually validating Heliona as the platform so.
Thank you. There you go.
Yeah. So another thing to that, it's
(15:45):
like even this morning I was reading a report from Gallup and
also like Deloitte, but it's like different kind of research
and they were saying that just disengagement is costing U.S.
companies around 500 billion every year.
That's, that's, that's insane. That's like the GDP of some
small countries. And in the US alone, people that
(16:07):
are not being trained properly, you know, invested into, are
staying within companies, highlydisengaged and they're costing
the company that which is insane.
And and then another part that Gallup said, it says great
leaders are not born, they're trained.
And yet 80, five, actually 82% of new managers and directors
don't get any training. They're just getting their
(16:28):
position and be like, Hey, figure this out, go to work.
So your point, those are the individuals that don't get
trained or invested to and then they end up staying and they're
the one costing not not to theirfault at all.
It's just the company doesn't have the paths for them to grow
to, for them to find their, their voice, their role within
the company. So they're, they're working
there to get a paycheck, not to their fault at all.
(16:50):
That's because there's no structure created in the company
or they don't have leaders that are proactive to a point that
they can train those new managers that usually get thrown
into position like these. Stats are crazy. 500 billion.
Every. Year in the US alone, that's the
GDP of countries that is going to disengagement, just the cost
(17:10):
of it. And then you have 82% that are
saying we have no training. And I want to know just in your
role, as you progress in all these different roles, you've
kind of touched on how you are proactive and actually investing
to a point that people are saying, why are you wasting when
you are like, no, this is the reason why I'm doing this.
This is costly. We don't want them to stay if
this is not the right place for them.
But I want to know, like, how doyou see that play out as as a
(17:32):
leader as you progress, especially in a, in like, and
now we have 5 different generations in the workplace you
have from the, you know, the Gen.
ZS all the way to the Boomers. Like how do you see that play
out as you navigate your role asa leader and hiring and firing
and managing all this different generation?
How do you see that play out in general?
(17:53):
Yeah, great question, right. I mean, that's I can I can agree
with this that sentiment, right?Like it's easy, it's easy to
hide, right? And I think sometimes we think
like, OK, hey, that person's performing.
Oh, well, then boom, slap a manager, roll on them, right?
You know, when it's like, OK, yes, they're performing, but do
they? To your point, are they equipped
(18:13):
to teach what they've been able to do?
Right? You know, just because I'm an
incredible soccer player doesn'tmake me a great coach.
Right, right. Same here.
Yeah, Yeah, you know what I meanright now.
Now I, I like to think that I'm a great coach.
And now I'm coaching my my youngest daughter's team, right?
Are they going to be the most motivated, Inspirated, you know,
inspirated. That's a.
Word. I mean, you sound like a great
coach because my son doesn't like me coaching him.
(18:36):
Oh, it took a minute. It took a minute for my
daughter's daughter to get OK with it.
Right? Are you sure?
Right. But is this okay?
Is this okay? But no, But to your point, it's
a problem. Yeah, right.
And so especially to your point,you've got all these different
people, right? I heard my mom used to say this.
She was like, hey, one of the best parts about working with
(18:58):
people is that you're working with people.
She's like one of the worst parts about working with people
is that you're working with. People, that's a beautiful
balance. And but, but to your point,
like, OK, there's different generations different.
Here's the other thing too, generations, cultures,
personality, right background. You know, you, you see a lot of
(19:21):
how people are raised by how they respond to adversity,
right? What's their, it's twofold.
It's you have to start with the end in mind.
Does that make sense? So it starts with hiring.
You know, I guess there's OK, I can't I there's a book called
energy bus highly recommend it. It's by this guy.
(19:41):
Oh my gosh, what's his name? John Gordon.
He he, he has a whole slew of leadership books, right.
But doesn't matter anyone's background, age, culture,
etcetera, from the beginning as a leader, it's establishing here
is what the mission is. And here is the here's the tone
(20:04):
of our environment. And I keep using the word
environment because my personal belief is that you as a leader
don't create culture. Create culture as a byproduct of
a good environment, right? And so if I can create the
environment, then culture naturally comes about because
expectations, standards, things like that, that all come in
line. I'll, I'll play a role in that.
(20:26):
Does that make sense? Right.
And so, but if I can understand people's personality types, what
are they trying to accomplish? And that, and that takes time,
right? It takes time to getting down to
the nitty gritty. And maybe, if maybe I'm not a
frontline leader, but I have leadership on that, That's part
of my frontline, right? It's, it's OK.
It starts from the top up, right?
(20:47):
You know, and, and if and if we can put in play of understanding
that like it goes back to have you seen that one like meme that
we're talking about? Probably.
But there's like this meme wherelike this teacher's teaching and
it says climb the, climb the tree and you have like a monkey,
you have a bear, you have a fish, you have an octopus, like
all these different animals. Have you seen that?
(21:09):
No, I haven't seen that right. It's a good find that.
It's a good like illustration, just like our school system.
That's a whole nother conversation, but of just
teaching like, OK, it's not justone way, right.
And same thing with leading people.
It's not just one way. Yeah, here's how it is, right?
And so it's, if I can get on theindividual aspect with then that
then there's, there's, there's pros and cons to it because I,
(21:30):
there's things that I can draw from.
Like I remember there was a gentleman that worked for me
that he has way more years of experience than I do, right?
Like like way smarter than me, etcetera.
But nonetheless, he's part of myteam.
Yeah, right. And so how do I, how do I engage
that person and, and, and, and lead that leading coach and
(21:50):
develop that person based off oftheir background where they're
at, Right. Yeah.
You know, and, and in this particular case, not all the
cases, but in this particular case, there's the whole age gap
that like he wasn't ready to receive leadership from somebody
that was younger, right? You know, and, and another
individual as well. So, so, so OK, so how do I
(22:12):
adjust my leadership style to connect with that people, right?
You know, and because again, everyone could communicate, but
very few connect. And if I can connect with that
person and coach and develop andmentor that person based off
where they're at and meeting them at their level, then
there's trust us being built. When there's trust is being
built, then the things that I'm saying start to start to
(22:34):
connect, right? And, and then the things that
I'm saying that when they connect, then we start to see
progress, right? Because we're going down that
road, right? And so, so if I can meet people
where they're at, you find good things right now, there's
there's friction, there's adversity, right?
If they're not willing to jump on the bus based off of what the
standard is of this team, then there's a conversation of is
(22:56):
this the right person for the bus, right.
You know, do I need to keep adjusting or is this person just
not willing to adjust? Yeah.
And that's the, that's the otherpart of the conversation of
like, OK, do we need to find a better role, position, team fit
for that individual or there arethey even part of, of what we
can add to the company? Does that make?
(23:17):
Sense. No, yeah, no, Yeah, that makes
perfect sense because I actuallyhad a similar experience where I
hired someone who was like, probably 25 years older than I
am. Yeah.
And, and we, I, we, I find myself in a position where I
think back then I also had some kind of insecurity of having
someone that older who was a former CEO and now he's working
underneath me. And.
And I, you know, as an African kid, I was told not to speak to
(23:40):
people older than, like, do not raise your voice and all these
things. So I find myself where I
struggle to like communicate with him and I was letting him
do things that weren't aligned with what I, what the company
was all about told like culturally was not a good fit.
And it was the most expensive learning, you know, I had to go
through to eventually I did let him go, but like getting to
(24:04):
that, I had to learn myself that, oh, so this is my problem.
This is something that I need towork on.
So I actually had to go back to therapy to understand why is it
that I still have this issue with like talking, giving, you
know, just delegating tasks to someone who's all better than
me, which led led me to go back to Africa to talk about my
childhood trauma. I was like, what the hell, I'm
(24:25):
in the workplace. Why am I talking about all this?
It's all connected. Though no, it did.
It was wild. I was like, OK, I need to go
work in my childhood trauma. I need to know that OK, and how
can I separate my own childhood experience from this experience
now? And that OK, I created this
space. I brought in these individuals,
even though they're 25 plus years older than me, they're
(24:45):
waiting for me to give him directions, but I was not
because I, I kind of froze the moment we have meetings because
he's like way older. I'm like, how do I tell this
guy? I feel like he knows more than
me? So a lot of insecurities came
about. One of the reasons why I created
this company is because of all of those experiences of like
realizing that they are people that are coming into the
workplace with their own drama. And sometimes they find
themselves in those places. And, and to your point, meeting
(25:08):
people where they're at, it's like one of the biggest, you
know, skills that leaders can have.
And and I love that you you are always, you know, kind of like
intervening in every level as you progress as a leader.
You're not just trying to get rid of people.
If they don't work, you're like,let's find them the right place.
Yes, Yeah, we can shift them to the next team.
Maybe this leader will be the best person for them.
(25:29):
You're not just saying, all right, that's it.
You get get out of here. You know, like get out of here
it. Just goes with me.
It's. People, right?
You're working with people. You're working with people like,
like, OK, those are all, again, my belief system is that, hey,
everyone's, everyone's created for a purpose and a reason,
right? You know, and, and they're here
for a reason, right? What and we, and it could be for
(25:50):
a season or it could be for a long period of time, right?
And so with this engagement thatwe're here, we're here, right?
So how do we maximize this? And it's funny you talk about
that because I think there's a lot of like your identity plays
a lot. It's how you lead to, right?
And and your ability to separate, like there's things
that like to your point is like,yeah, you don't back talk.
(26:10):
Yeah, I know what I mean. You don't back talk.
Oh, yeah? Oh yeah.
You know what I mean? You.
Back talk. You get a backhand, you know a.
100 percent, 100% right, You know, but but with that being
said, though, it's like, OK, like we've had, I've had to look
at my identity, but then also separating the fact that my job
has nothing to do with my identity.
Like what I'm doing with this work has nothing to do with my
(26:30):
identity. So why am I, does that make
sense? Right?
You know what I mean? Like, so why am I letting my
identity like let myself be lessthan right?
You know what I mean? Like even my college education
or your education or where you went to school, etcetera, that
has nothing to do with who you are as that person, right,
Right. And, and so when I started
reminding, like getting to the point to where I'm firming up of
(26:52):
who I am, right, you know, and, and, and, and the fact that even
though I make mistakes, to stillnot dictate who I am, right,
does not dictate the value that I bring to this world, right?
My creative value has nothing todo with that.
Then you start to realize like, OK, all right, so I can talk to
this person that's older than me, right?
Or younger than me, maybe have better education to me or, you
(27:13):
know, whatever, right. But if we can now the question
is, OK, me in your life, does that help you get to your goal?
You in my life, does that help me get to my goal?
Right. And if if we're if we're on the
same page and there's unity, right, then let's freaking go.
Right, right. No, Yeah.
I mean, that's so much pressure.But, but I think if you're going
(27:34):
to identify that I, I'm bringingmy identity into work, maybe
that can help take off that pressure that we, we always
have, especially younger leadersthat are finding themselves
where they're leading, people that are much older than them.
Which also brought me to a question like when it comes to
the workplace, who exactly is incharge of culture?
Is it the C-Suite? Is it the frontline managers or
(27:55):
is it the entire body of the of the organization?
Great question. Everything rises and falls on
leadership and I don't, I think,I think the leader, the leader
is the one that creates the environment.
So I'm going back to what I talked about how like, what does
that environment look like, right?
Like from the top down? And and another book plug is
(28:18):
extreme ownership, right? Like this book called extreme
ownership. OK, me as a leader, I'm taking
extreme ownership of my organization, right?
But then every leader taking extreme ownership of their, of
their, of their, of their side. Does that make sense?
Right. So where it goes from that is
like, OK, if the leader is, is creating an environment that is
(28:41):
conducive to growth. And what I mean by that, do I
feel, do they feel empowered that they can come and talk to
me about ideas? Do they feel empowered that to
come and talk to me about like, hey, like I didn't, I didn't
appreciate how that was taught to me.
But they feel like they can comeand have that conversation, not
from a complaint, but being solution minded, right, to make
(29:02):
it better, right? You know, like it's do I, is it
OK for me to ask why, right? You know, other aspects as well,
right? Like do I feel, do they feel
that they can, that they, they have care for me, right?
So if I can create a culture like that, then there's other
then then then the I'm sorry, ifI can create an environment
(29:24):
that's like that, then the culture is stimulated from that,
right? And then it's up to everybody to
be responsible for the culture of, of, of upholding it, right?
Does that make sense? And, and, and like there's a
story, I'll just be real. There's a story like, and
actually from the Bible, it's actually talks about like this
(29:44):
guy from Nehemiah that he's building this wall, right?
And they were trying to build this wall.
They've been trying to build this wall for like many, many
generations, right? Couldn't get it done from the
enemies. And so then Nehemiah comes and
basically starts from the bottomand says, Hey, everybody, you're
responsible for your section of the wall, right?
(30:04):
So you, your family unit down tothe babies, down to you, you own
this section of the wall, right?And what took generations ended
up taking months, right? You know what I mean?
Because unity happened, right? And so I think if, if everybody
can be the culture bears, right?You know, because they know
like, like again, the teams thatwe've had that had the best
(30:26):
cultures, when you came into it,everyone felt different.
They felt like, OK, this is thisis different, right?
You know, I mean, this is like, like like when people were
slacking, you know, everyone, everyone upheld, right?
Because everyone was on fire. Does that make sense?
So naturally, what happens in cultures like that, people that
(30:48):
aren't meant to be part of that culture, they feel almost
abnormal, right? And they don't, they don't feel
like they fit there. But here's the deal.
That's OK because we, we're running at a different level.
That makes sense, right, Depending on where you're going.
And, and then, but then also thepeople that do come and they do
want to be a part of it, they naturally conform to it, you
know, and they also realize that, wait, hold on one second.
(31:10):
I see here's what this team is, but also I, I've got unique
abilities and traits. I'm going to add value to this
culture, right? And so they can add themselves
to that. And I think it just stimulates
just an authentic unified team. Does that make?
Sense. No, yeah, no, yeah.
You know, I've actually seen like some of that in your
leadership. I remember I think 3 years ago,
(31:31):
you, you you were doing like 100m race with one of your your
team member, like what's his name again?
Askia. He he just got married.
That's right, That's right. He just got married.
And I saw the video and then andthen you, you, you guys were
just running and and and I and Ithink you won.
And I have the same last name ashim.
And I'm saying you've been embarrassed.
(31:51):
They tired blood like that. Yeah.
I was like, how dare you lost. No, for sure.
Yeah. So I like that aspect, you know,
of like just, you know, creatingthe psychologically safety space
in, in like the therapy world, they call it psychological
safety, which is now coming intothe workplace.
And let's create a psychologicalsafety space for people to want
(32:12):
to come and talk to you if if something happened.
It's bro, it's authenticity, right?
Like that, that whole that scenario.
You know how that scenario happened?
We're we're, we're having a one-on-one, having a
conversation and obviously we'rejust getting to know each other,
right. And somehow the topic of speed
came about, right? You know what I mean?
And and then it was a literally just like, like, you know, yeah,
(32:34):
he's like, I can smoke. I was like, I was like, bro, I
don't think you like, he, he, he, he threw a jab at me.
He's like, he's like, yeah, I don't think he could beat me.
And I was like, I don't like what?
Like we'll like, let's do this right now, right now, right?
You know, but it's, it's authentic, right?
And at that time, it was a week that was hell, to be honest with
you. It was we weren't hitting our
(32:55):
goal. Everyone was stressed.
And it's like, listen. And for me, I just think, go
outside. Yeah, something refreshing.
Yeah, Yeah. Let's go have some fun.
That was fun. I saw the video.
I was like, okay, this is different and I've watched the
whole thing and then he lost. I was like, come on man, we have
the same last name. You cannot do.
That and then it ended up five, five other people, one of the.
(33:16):
Races wanted to raise you. Still smoked them.
Yeah. That is why I'm the leader now.
My hammies were smoked too. I know.
Yeah, man. Like, come on.
Yeah. Yeah.
So. Well, I'm sure you went home and
you were like, I'm off. Yeah.
Exactly, that's my workout. I've been ran in so long, I
can't even imagine so. So like, I do have a question
(33:36):
just based of the pressure and the performance, like how do you
balance those two in the workplace as a leader to just to
make sure that you can have, youknow, that, you know,
psychological safety? Because sometimes pressure can
overtake the performance aspect of it where, you know, to my
analogy of the rice cooker, there's too much pressure.
Everything burnt in this scenario, people get burnt out
when there's too much pressure. But there has to be some healthy
(34:00):
amount of performance in in order for the pressure to be
fair, just for the rest of the people.
Like how does that look like? Especially in sales, people can
easily go above and beyond because they have a goal in mind
that they want to reach. And as a leader, how do you make
sure that they don't burn themselves out and maybe, you
know, impact the culture in the way?
Yeah, great question. I mean, because also as a
leader, I think sometimes I've had to shield my team from the
(34:25):
pressures that I'm experiencing from like board commitments,
quotas, things like that, right?So it's, it's shielding, but
then there's also knowing when. And this is, I hate using this
term, but it's the best term I can think of.
It's knowing when to use the stick and knowing when to use
the carrot, right? And there are times where you
(34:46):
you have to, you have to put some pressure.
Right. But it's it's, it's me going and
making a withdrawal from deposits that I've made
throughout this whole relationship.
Does that make sense? No, that makes sense.
If I'm putting the if I'm putting deposits in like if
we're connecting and if I've invested in you, I've take I've
(35:07):
taken the time I've coached you,I've hopped on phone calls with
you. I've walked you through this.
I've LED you by I've won mentorsname as Brad say like leadership
is spelled EX AM PLE is your example.
I've LED from my example. I've done all these things
throughout the process of the relationship.
Then when I'm using the stick, I'm making a withdrawal of of of
(35:31):
an account that's abundant. Does that make sense?
And so I think when you can be, when I've when I've had to do
that, the team has responded knowing that, OK, it's go time,
right? You know what I mean?
And then there's times where I've used a stick, you know, or
there's times where I've used a carrot, you know, of creating
fun incentives, things like that, right?
(35:53):
And so I think at the end of theday, it's just understanding
when to apply what tool within abag, right?
And most times the amateur leader just has one, just has
one tool and it's the hammer, you know what I mean?
And it's. Everything you use a hammer.
Everything you hammer when hammer when sometimes it's the
chisel, you know what I mean? Sometimes it's other aspects,
right? And or sometimes, like, I mean,
(36:15):
there's one time where this individual wasn't hitting quota,
right? And we're getting to the point
to where so it was the other time like, hey, do we need to
have a conversation and let thisperson go, right?
You know, and he wasn't responding.
And so he wasn't responding to one of my managers.
And so I brought him into my office and I just knew the
person was like, I was like, youOK.
(36:35):
I was like, first and foremost, like, it's like you're not
hitting quota. What's going on?
You're you're you're also kind of being a jerk, you know what I
mean? I was like, are you OK?
And then just sobbing, just sobbing, going through it, you
know, just and then just crying.And then come to find out,
right, fiance just left them, you know, you know, running
(37:00):
behind on bills, right? Feeling less than we start
diving into just all the crap that was going on, right?
Because it wasn't like like, no one wants to suck at their job.
Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?
No one wants to, you know what Imean?
So OK, if that's the case, then OK, then why aren't they
performing? Why aren't they?
(37:21):
Why aren't they like, there's a reason for it.
Yeah, right. And, and so it's just taking
time. And then then we OK, then, then
it then it was like, OK, I understand what's going on,
right? It's like, but buddy, we also
got a job to do. Yeah.
So how do we, how do we come to a how do we come to a
resolution, right. And so I was like, OK, you take
the day reset. But then let's come back and
let's talk about let's let's let's get down to the nitty
(37:43):
gritty of how we're gonna accomplish what needs to be
accomplished, right? But there's also a time frame
that we gotta get this done, right?
Yeah. So I'm gonna get there.
I'm gonna get with you. What do we need to do?
Right. And if they aren't willing to
help themselves more, and if I'mwilling to help them more than
they want to help themselves, then we got a problem.
Yeah. You know what I mean, Right.
But if they're willing to help themselves as much as I want to
help them right, then because helping them get to where they
(38:06):
need to go naturally and helps me get to my goal, right.
And which helps get to the company goal, right?
Then there's, then, then, then that's, then that's that
positive pressure. Yeah.
Right. You know, And so, and again,
it's not always warm, warm fuzzyrainbows, right?
Yeah. You know, and so you gotta
figure that piece out too. But I think it's it's just
(38:27):
connecting with people on an individual aspect.
Yeah, no, yeah, that's deep. Because, you know, a lot of
leaders, sometimes they find themselves in that position.
They don't know what to do. No, it's that, oh, shoot,
they're crying. I don't know what to do now.
Yeah. OK, let's let's go talk to HR,
you know for sure. But instead you were there with
them and be present, but then also being like realistic at the
same time. You know, I think that's a term
(38:48):
for it, but I can't remember. Yeah.
Yeah, maybe it's just, it's justempathy.
Yeah, it's just empathy, just being there with someone and,
and genuinely listening, but also being realistic at the same
time, 100% because yeah, life happens.
You know, people go through stuff and sometimes they need,
you know, that, you know, like acknowledgement and it's space
for them to be acknowledged. So thank you for being that
(39:09):
leader. I think that's very, very much
needed, especially today with usgoing through COVID and now with
this very like broken society. I'm I'm calling you.
There's so much going on. People are struggling, you know,
just to make ends, you know, like meets just in general.
So thank you for being like one of those leaders that sit down
(39:29):
and be there with the employee. Another thing that I wanted to
talk about, it's like just mental health as a whole.
I wanted to know just on a personal level, like how are you
managing your own mental health as a leader and then also
working with all the different people, not only that, but
(39:50):
different levels of leadership at the same time.
How is your mental health? Like, how are you?
How are you doing? I guess?
Yeah, Hey, great question, man. You know, I think there's a,
there's been times where I've had like this toxic positivity,
right? You know, which is, or I should
say misplaced positivity, if that makes sense.
Everything's just going to be fine.
Everything's just been refined, right?
(40:10):
Like like, like there's a, there's a, there's a level of
authenticity that you can be with.
Just like, hey, I think like like having a positive mental
attitude is it's not saying thateverything is just going to be
fine, but it's knowing that, hey, I've got a problem.
But there's a solution for it, right?
Right. You know, and there's, there's
(40:32):
there's one gentleman, his name's Jamie, Jamie Santos.
He told me this one time. He said you as a leader need to
give out of the overflow. You have to give out of the
overflow. And what, and what he was
meaning by that was like, if you're running on empty, right,
and you're still trying to give,like I can't give like if you
need a hat, right? I can't give you a hat if I
don't have a hat in my possession.
(40:54):
And so, you know, there's times,man, that like my wife, like
literally actually a couple daysago we were talking about this
is, hey, I need to rest, right? You know, like, like I need, I
need to be intentional with my rest, right?
You know, you know, like, what am I doing?
Like, like, like, yes, I've got therapy.
I I've got therapists, I've got mentors.
(41:15):
I've got like men and women thatspeak into my life, you know,
that that's helping to fill me up, right?
You know, and it's multiple aspects.
It's, you know, like physically,right, you know, just working
out things like that, just letting off steam.
But then also like spiritually, like what?
How am I spilling filling myselfup spiritually, relationally,
(41:35):
right, Like like because all that plays, I think it's all
ties in, right? You know, like I'm like, I'm a
father, I'm a husband, right? I'm, I'm a son, I'm, I'm, I'm a
brother, I'm all these differentthings.
I'm a all the things, right? So like, OK, like how, how is
all that playing into who I am as a person?
But at the, at the core, it's, I'm taking time and
(41:58):
intentionality with, with my identity, right?
And, and where my identity is anchored in, right?
And so I know people have different belief systems, but
mine is through a worldview of my created value, right?
And, and I and, and because I anchor that in that allows me to
go through storms when all hell is breaking loose and I'm
(42:19):
feeling the way I feel, right? But I can keep moving forward,
right? The best example I can give you
is so I have a buddy of mine whohe's, I mean, this guy's like
the smartest, most athletic, good looking person on the face
of the planet, right? You know what I mean?
And he yeah, his name is Justin,right?
Shout out Justin. He he flies AB2 stuff bomber.
(42:41):
Like he literally is like graduated top of the Air Force
Academy. He had a choice of becoming an
astronaut or flying to B2 stuff and he decided to do the B2
stuff right, like like insane, right?
And so having this conversation just about planes, and there's a
scenario where pilots, when theygo through like Gray skies and
(43:01):
they go through storms, there's this phenomenon called spatial
disorientation. They call spatial D OK, What
happens is when you're flying through like a Gray sky, like
kind of an overcast day, like today or storms because of
gravity and how the clouds flow down feels up and up feels down,
right? Like everything feels like you
(43:21):
get this overwhelming feeling that you're falling, right?
And so though what happens is, and this is actually where they
where they thought that most plane crashes are a result of
this is because of spatial disorientation.
This is actually what they thinkthat would happen with Kobe with
that, with that helicopter, right?
And So what pilots have is pilots have gauges and they
(43:42):
don't just have 1 gauge, they have multiple gauges that tell
altitude, direction, all this stuff, right?
Because that feeling is so strong that when they look at 1
gauge, they think that the gaugeis off because they're feeling
is so strong, right? So they have multiple gauges
telling the same thing, basically telling you no, you
keep flying right, you keep moving right.
And the nose of the airplane is called the attitude, which I
(44:04):
didn't realize that. So you know, there are two
things you can control in your in in, in your world, your
actions and your attitude, right?
Attitude isn't your feeling likeit's OK to feel, but your
response to the feeling, right? And So what I have is I have
gauges in my life, right? You know, that I have through my
(44:24):
belief system, through, you know, through the Bible, through
my mentors that I have in my life through, through I have
different people that speak intomy life, therapy, etcetera.
That when I have that off feeling, these and these things
that I've put in place in my life keep me flying in the right
direction, right? Or it tells me when I'm empty.
(44:44):
It tells me when I need to make that, make an adjustment, tells
me when I need to make those different pieces because it
validates. It's still, even if my feeling
is wrong, it validates it. Or if my feeling is right, it
validates it. Does that make sense?
And so as I keep flying through life, right, like you've got
that piece. And I think people, when you
don't have that or they don't put themselves in environments
(45:07):
where they have that, I mean, you're flying by yourself,
right? And, and that's why you see with
crash and things like that. So anyways, so like, that's what
I do, man, you know what I mean?It's a combination, it's a
combination of multiple different things.
But at the end of the day, like,in my opinion, no matter all the
trauma that you're dealing with,everything that you're is all
centered around your, your, youridentity is all centered around
(45:29):
your identity. Because if you, if you,
depending on how you value and you look at yourself, right, it
it, it, it, it changes how you father, right?
We're both dads. You know what I mean?
We're both young dads, right? You know, it changes how you
father and I, I, I, I, I struggled with this for a long
time. My little brother actually sent
me a shout out Gundo. He sent me a he sent me.
(45:52):
It was on Father's Day whenever it was like my like my second,
my first or second Father's Day.And he's like, he's like, wow,
fatherless fathers fathering, right.
And, and I and I shot him a texthere whenever he became a
father, right? You know, like, look at us
fatherless fathers fathering like we're going down a, a road
(46:12):
with fatherhood because our, ourdad died when we were six years
old, right. So we're, we're, we're, we're
we're almost, we're not almost, we're going under uncharted
territory. Yeah.
Because as of this year, I'm older than my dad was.
Right. Wow.
And it's like, it's like this weird feeling that like that I'm
going through as a as a, as a father.
Yeah, but where I'm going to thebut because I didn't have the
(46:32):
dad doesn't mean that I'm a bad father, right?
Does that make sense? Right.
Yeah. And and and in your identity,
man is surrounded. So like, how can you anchor
that? How do you work on that?
How do you fix that? How do you invest in that?
Right. And that's what we focus in on
man. And I think everything else from
there. Yeah, just flows and flows.
(46:53):
You know what I mean? Yeah.
So that's why I can relate to that for sure.
Just basically everything that you just talked about,
especially in the mental health piece and a personal piece as
well. So thank you for articulating it
so well. Yeah, man, you know, I love the,
you know, the analogy of the gauges.
You know, like I, I, I, I think I have a similar example, but
not as specific as that. Yeah.
So I'm never going to steal that.
(47:13):
So come on. Brother, I stole that from
somebody else, right you. Know it's busy there you go if
you're listening, feel free to just take this and share it
because it's it's very beautifully represented yeah.
And you know it, it shows just what's priority and just the
importance of having, you know, those, you know, different
individuals in your life that could bring you back and anchor
(47:35):
you if you were, if you find yourself in like disorientation
and not know what to do decision, you know, like fatigue
and overload with just realitiesof life.
Having those right individual, especially as a leader.
I, I think this is something that I, I also talked about here
on this podcast and making sure the managers, the leaders you
have that individual in your life or individuals in your life
(47:56):
that could always anchor you back if you find yourself in
disorientation. So thank you for that.
Well, articulation and explaining a way that anyone can
understand. You know, I wasn't going to talk
about this, but now that you share this, I want to talk about
it. You know, like one of the things
that came on this podcast based off the interviews that I've
had, I'm calling it the three C's to retentions last life.
(48:19):
You know, the first one is clarity.
And I wanted to get your take onit because as you talk, I see so
many clarity. And the second one is capacity.
And for some reason, I can't remember the third one right
now, but but let's start with clarity and also capacity.
Just as an individual who is a leader and has worked with so
many different people, how do you see clarity to play out and
(48:40):
also capacity? And I'll think of the third.
One Yeah, yeah, you're good, you're good.
A book I read says make the vision and make it plain, right?
And so when, like you need to beclear and specific as far as
what we're trying to do, like, like, we may not, we might not
be clear on how we're going to get there, right?
(49:03):
But do I at least have a direction?
You know what I mean, right? The second C is communication.
OK, OK. OK.
That's good. So.
Planet and communication and capacity I.
Love that, right, you know, And so OK, so like if we have clear
to me, I mean, when I hear that,it's my first time hearing that
it's it's okay. Like like it's clear, right?
You know what I mean? Like like you're clear, it's not
(49:25):
complex, right, right. It could be a simple thing.
Now there's a difference betweensimple and easy, right?
You know, just because somethingsimple doesn't make it easy,
right? But but there's you like for I
think about you and how you advocate, right.
You know, it's clear that your your mission is to help empower
and impact people with their mental health, right.
(49:45):
You know, and that's clear. Yeah.
And so now how you how you get there could be multiple
different angles this. Podcast.
Your company, all the different aspects, the things that you do,
right, right, that's all different, right?
Communicate, I think go communicate, you know,
communication also, you know, it's direct, right?
(50:06):
You know, and, and, and, and it's talked about often, right,
Right. You know, people tend to, they
need to hear things like 7 timesbefore really it registers,
registers, right? Just because I told you once
doesn't mean that you're going to.
I mean, it's like kids too, right?
And it's like, it's like, Hey, brush your teeth every day.
Have so many Gray hair come on out for just like repeating over
(50:28):
and over again over 7 years old.That's something that absolutely
over and. Over and over and over, over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over
again, right? Same thing with people.
What makes the just because you're an adult doesn't make you
any different. You know what I mean?
Like, like you need to hear it over and again, right?
And it needs to be the same message, right?
You know, until, until the message shifts, right?
(50:49):
You know what was the other one?The last one is capacity.
Capacity, OK, that's a good one,right?
You can't do everything right, right.
You know, and I think if the vision is big enough, it
requires multiple people, right?You know, it requires, it
requires like if your mission isit can only be done by you,
(51:13):
you're dreaming too small, right?
You know, you're dreaming too small, right?
You're too small minded. It should be so big that there
are multiple people that need tobe part of it so that your
capacity frees up, right? But I think so often and I, I,
this is, I'm talking to myself right now as I'm saying this,
that's right. But it's being willing to let
certain things go, right, You know, so that you can have the
(51:37):
capacity for the greater things,right?
And so often times it's more like people, they pride
themselves and be able to do so many things and multitask,
right? But there's no such thing as
multitasking, right? That's you, the CEO of the
brokerage I'm part of. His name is Robert Refkin.
He said this one time in a podcast, they asked him, they
(51:58):
said, you know, like, what's your strength?
How do you, how do you strengthen your strengths and
how do you strengthen your weaknesses?
And he's like, well, I keep focusing on my strengths and I
strengthen those things. But I, I, I don't strengthen my
weaknesses. I was like, wait, what?
He's like, he's like, he's like,no, I, I, I put the right people
(52:20):
in play for my weaknesses, right?
You know, and, and so I bring, what I bring to the table is my
strength. They bring their strengths and
we're stronger together, right? And I think what, what happens
with a lot of times with leadership is that because of
pride, ego, right? But when you really look at it
at the core, right, it's fear, right?
It's fear of letting go because you think that it can't be done
(52:42):
the way you want it to get done or you.
I think that oh, because my handisn't on it, right?
You know that that we're gonna fail, right?
When the reality is is because of your fear is keeping you from
growth, right? Wow, that's a word right now.
Yeah, that's that's a strong one.
That's a word right there. Yeah, you know, but, but, but,
but but that's, that's what I feel.
You know, yeah, no, yeah, that, yeah, that's the first time that
(53:05):
I've seen someone link fear to capacity.
It is, yeah. So that's that's actually very
powerful. It's a give me, Yeah, it's a
mine, mine, mine. That's gonna be the type.
Yeah, this was powerful. Yeah.
This will be the last time I'm going to interrupt your
listening experience. But I just want to say this.
You know how you finish an episode and you wish you could
be in the same room for the conversation?
(53:28):
Well, on October 15, you actually can.
Workplace unfiltered. A Helion experience is your
chance to be part of it all. Live at the Abbot in Kansas
City. RSVP at heliona dot IO before
spots run out. That's Heliona, as in HELIONA
and I'll see you there. We've gotten to the end of this
(53:51):
conversation and we do have a closing question that I like to
ask my guests. So based on everything that
we've talked about from the moment you walked into this
building, or you can even take it back from the moment you wake
up today to this moment right now, how is your spirit right
now? Wait, from the moment that I
came and then now or just just. Just in general, all day.
(54:11):
So from the moment you wake up today to this moment right now.
Listen, my spirit, man, my spirit's full and my spirit's
grateful, right? Because I started my day with
gratitude, right? Right.
You know, and I'm just, I'm telling you, man, I can bring
tears in my eyes. I get emotional about this,
right? But like, I'm so grateful for my
life. I'm so grateful for the, for
the, for the breath in my lungs,right?
(54:32):
I'm grateful for the ability that I have that I'm in this
country, I'm here, we're having this conversation, right?
You know what I mean? Like, like, so it's just a
spirit of gratitude, man, right?And, and so, and, and, and this
conversation is also just validating that brother, you
know what I mean? And so my spirit's full.
And, and so because like a man, we've just been intentional,
(54:54):
right? Because of that man's.
But I'm telling you, that's, that's how I'm feeling.
That's how I'm feeling right now.
That's my spirit. Brother, No.
Yeah, that's a good feeling. Grateful.
I I I just told myself if I havea daughter, I'm gonna name her
Grateful. That's a great.
Yeah. So, yeah.
Wow. Thank you, thank you.
This this has been a very full conversation.
You know, I, I just, you genuinely enjoyed it and I know
(55:14):
the people listening are going to enjoy it as well.
But yeah, thank you for being onthe Heliana inside podcast.
I'm definitely going to have youin season 2 for.
Sure. Come on now.
Hey, this was fun bro. Let's do it again.
Alright man. Thank you.
Got you back.
Everything rises and falls on leadership.
OK, me as a leader, I'm taking extreme ownership of my
organization, right? But then every leader taking
extreme ownership of their side.And what I mean by that, do I
feel, do they feel empowered that they can come and talk to
me about ideas? Do they feel empowered that to
come and talk to me about like, hey, I didn't appreciate how
that was talked to me, but they feel like they can come and have
(00:22):
that conversation, not from a complaint, but being solution
minded, right, to make it better.
And I think sometimes we think like, OK, hey, that person's
performing. Oh well then boom, slap a
manager, roll on them. Yes, they're performing.
But do they, to your point, are they equipped to teach what
they've been able to do? Just because I'm an incredible
soccer player doesn't make me a great coach.
(00:47):
Retention is not solved by perksor quick fixes.
It's rooted in culture, purpose and mental health.
My guest today is Tanu MOBA, founder of Dual Real Estate and
former SAS sales leader, who's built and LED teams through
rapid growth, high pressure, andmajor transitions over more than
(01:09):
14 years in leadership, he's seen first hand how retention
depends less on compensation packages and more on whether
people feel supported, inspired,and connected to something
bigger than themselves. In this episode, Tano and I
unpack what leaders often get wrong about keeping their
people, why mental health cannotbe enough to time, and how
(01:33):
making purpose popular can transform both performance and
culture. If you're leading A-Team or
building a business, this conversation will give you a
fresh perspective on what it really takes to keep great
people and help them drive. So let's get into it.
(01:58):
Hello. Hello.
I apologize for interrupting your listening experience.
But. This is worth it.
Stay with me. On October 15, we are bringing
Workplace unfiltered Heliona experience that is the Heliona
Life podcast. The top five guests, the most
listened guests will be in a roundtable discussion on October
15 in downtown Kansas City. Shout out to Chicago, Iowa,
(02:22):
Illinois. Thank you guys for always tuning
in. But I want you to picture this
one night with leaders from across the country, HR
professionals, mental health providers, and you, the
listener, all in the same room for unfiltered conversation
about performance and mental health.
It's life, it's going to be honest.
(02:44):
And yes, you can be part of it. So make sure to RSVP today at
heliona dot IO. That's HELI ona dot IO.
Or you can visit the show notes right now and make sure to RSVP
on the event page. We only have a block for 50
people exclusive to my listenersand LinkedIn followers.
(03:05):
We'd love for you guys to be to show up October 15 and I'd love
to meet everyone there. The food developer drinks
coffee. Amazing time.
Dolls open at 4:30 PM Central time.
So again, visit heliona dot IO to learn more or visit the show.
Notes and cheers all. Right.
So Tanu, I like to talk about, especially on this podcast, most
(03:30):
of the conversation that we haveis centered around mental
health, you know, like retention.
And I know you've worked in those and not specifically
mental health, but as a leader, you've worked with people where
you have to be in charge of someaspect of their well-being.
And I want to take your, you know, like TCS around just what
is the correlation between mental health and also retaining
(03:52):
your people as a leader? Yeah, deep question.
You know, I mean which is, whichis good.
So I talked to a lot of therapists.
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, honestly, but
leaders with leadership, there is a therapy aspect, right?
At least the good ones, right? You know, 'cause I can, at the
end of the day, there's positional leaders, right?
Which is, hey, I'm just, I've just got my title and look at
(04:14):
me, I've got my title. So you should respond to my
leadership because I'm qualified.
I got the title, right? But then there's true
leadership, right, which you're leading people, which is
honestly center around all of what you talked about.
And so I think at the end of theday, I feel that people retain
when they feel, when they feel valued, right, You know, and,
(04:36):
and so I think at the end of theday, when you're leading people
is finding the individual aspects of that person.
What are what are their goals? What are they wanting, right?
Where are they trying to, where are they trying to go?
And can I help them get to that path?
And at the end of the day, when they feel like they're in a
position that's helping them getto where they want to go, they
stay right? But but it also, you know, STEM
(04:59):
as a, as a leader, you know, I think about you being a pressure
relief, a release valve, right? You know, often times people
don't quit jobs, they quit leaders, right?
At least that's what I've experienced.
You know, I work, you know, gosh, I mean like like very vast
background with within corporateAmerica, outside of corporate
America. You know, I, I remember when I
(05:20):
was running, you know, I was at the start up, it's called Fifted
and which I started there as a sales Rep, moved up to, you
know, an SDR manager and then ended up being like the VP of
sales with a bunch of sales reps, right.
And so, but it reminds me of like people responded, you know,
when there was positive pressurethat was put on, right?
(05:42):
And then when negative pressure was put on, they left.
Does that make sense? Right.
And, and so at the end of the day, it's just OK, who, who am I
working with? Who are they?
What are they dealing with, right?
And then how can I help to create an environment that
allows them to be the best version of them?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just said that last
night I was actually making riceand I have the rice cooker.
(06:02):
Yeah. And then I'll, you know, that
that's like the little pressure that you have to open.
So my wife, I usually make rice the old school, I just use the
pan water. Yes.
And then I boil, then I put the rice, you know, and I add a
bunch of seasoning to, to make it taste the way that I I grew
up eating rice in Africa, 100%. So she used rice cooker.
So last night I was tired and I wanted to use the rice cooker.
(06:24):
I don't know how to use it. Yeah.
And then I burned the rice and she was like, you forgot to open
the pressure. Yeah.
So as you're saying that just the pressure, you know, like
analogy of just working with people.
If you apply the wrong pressure,you know, people are going to
leave same to that rice cooker. Yes, I I did not open the valve
in in time. So if everything burns 100.
(06:45):
Percent your your people. Burn, not burn as a rice cooker.
But no, no. But you're right though, right?
I think, you know, at the end ofthe day, it's like, you know,
you and I are kind of talking about this before we even get
started. I think people want to be a part
of something more and more so than ever today, right?
If you look at this generation of people, the first thing that
(07:06):
like on interviews that I'd have, they would be talking
about like, OK, yes, there's themoney aspect, OK, I want to make
money, etcetera. But like our parents generation,
it was more about, OK, what's the job and how much is it going
to pay? Right?
And then they're they they're they're OK with the negatives
because they sacrificed it for just getting a paycheck, right?
(07:29):
And it's just, yeah, it's just part for the course.
It's like, OK, this is just partof me working when now it's
completely flipped down, right? You know, you've got more
opportunities that's out there than ever before in my opinion,
right? There's a lot of different
things that are out there, but retaining the right people when
they feel valued. But then they also, it's not
dragging, right? I think as a leader you got to
(07:52):
and it's the same thing with my kids.
Like I've got a son who's incredible, like same as Moses,
incredible soccer player. Right.
Yeah, yeah, I saw the videos. Come on now, He's good.
Yeah, he's a good, good player. But like, you know, he, we,
we're finding unique ways, me asa parent to make the journey and
the work part of the journey fun.
(08:15):
That makes sense, right? How do you, how do you create
that? Like 'cause like it sucks, you
know, you know, waking up at 6:00 AM and going through what
he's doing right now, right? All that stuff.
But how do I remind that him that that's part of the process
and how do we create a fun aspect or how does it, how do we
get it to a point where he in his mind, he's thinking that
what I'm doing is contributing to what's going on.
(08:35):
And it's not just a task, right?People are the same way, right?
When you're leading people, it'shonest, it's the same way as you
are, you're, you're parenting ina way, right?
You know, And, and so it's the same thing.
So it's like, OK, when they're part of that journey, they're
experiencing that pressure or they're experiencing adversity,
OK. Does it go to a negative mindset
that this is an attack on who I am?
(08:56):
Right. Wow, you know what I mean.
And is this an attack on my identity, right?
Or is this just part of the process?
And how do we create that suck as in a positive light?
Does that make sense? Yeah, Yeah, it makes sense cuz I
played soccer and I never enjoyed it because my dad, you
know, he played soccer during his time and he and he just put
(09:17):
me through the whole process. I actually came to the US to
play for UMKC. That's why I'm, I'm here.
But the moment I had an opportunity because he wasn't
around anymore, I just quit right away.
I was like, Nope, there's no onehere telling me you need to wake
up and do this. And I left right away.
And, and even now as a parent, one of my, you know, my son, my
first son, Mercy, I also wanted him to play soccer.
(09:39):
I bought all this ball, but he has no interest in sports
whatsoever. He likes to build Legos.
He's the smartest kid ever. He he's seven years old and he's
already like reading like Harry Potter books, but he loves to
read because as a baby I would sit with him and and read all
the time and I wanted to make that as a habit.
But now he's like it got to a point when I'm like running away
(10:00):
because we read so much and he loves reading so much, but I get
so exhausted. I I enjoy the process, but
imagine reading every day. Come on, 7 year old.
He loves reading and, but you know, so you know, some part of
me, I know I had like that element of my dad where I was
like, maybe I should just push him a little bit.
And I remember taking him to, tolike soccer camp and he was
(10:22):
screaming and underground to point that he motivated all the
other kids to scream with him. And I'm saying, you know what,
let me not do the same thing that my dad did.
So I took him off of that program and, and now I'm just
working with him. A few weeks ago, I saw him like
kicking a soccer ball and I was like, yes, yes, it's happening
guys. And my wife was like, just don't
(10:42):
put pressure. Just let him be.
Let him find this sport if he's interested.
But I'm just waiting as a leader.
So I can see that as a way that you are talking about just the
pressure aspect of working with teams.
Another aspect that I want to talk about is like growth,
because I know you've worked with sales, you've worked in
different levels of sales and you've lead so many teams.
But like when you look back, like what role did like
(11:04):
retention play? Especially when you're
transitioning from one team to another, Like what do you see
happen? Especially because I know as you
progress from different roles, meaning you were either leaving
a few people to progress to the next role and now you were the
leader working with them. Like how did retention play out
for you personally and then alsofor the teams that you had to
(11:26):
lead at the at each level? Yeah.
I mean, I mean, we those, you know, there were times where we
felt like it was a revolving door, right?
You know, like, OK, hey, we bring them on, burn them out
after six months, seven months, a year.
Then it's just like revolving door over and over and over and
over again, right? And so when there's, it goes
back to, OK, there's, there's a vision, right?
(11:48):
You know, it's like first and foremost, what's the vision,
cause and purpose, right? As corny as that may sound, no.
I like that it's not my brain works.
Yeah, exactly. Right.
But I think that so oftentimes it goes back to just how to
what's your thought process of leadership as a whole, Right.
And going back to our kids too. You know, I've I've got a
daughter that she quit soccer and said it was because she was
(12:10):
like, dad, I don't like to sweat.
Wow, right. But but she's also the person
that now she's playing soccer because it's her idea, right?
Yeah. And, and so it's, it, it goes
back to, OK, am I pushing or am I pulling?
If I'm pushing, then I'm forcingpeople to do what they don't
want to do. But if they're feeling, if
there's a pull, then then peopleare progressing in a, in a, in a
(12:35):
way that, that they're moving towards that.
And it, and it makes sense like this because at the end of the
day, like the people that I LED and and I'm leading today, my
aim and my hope is that they feel that I as a leader, you
know, am that me being in their life, they're going to have
betterment, whether it be in and, and here's the thing too.
(12:55):
They also know that they can leave at any point, right,
right. And but they know that I'm going
to invest in them as if they're being with me forever, right?
And and so, you know, so you know, I have another
conversation with somebody like,and you spend so much time with
people, right? You know, like you spend so much
time investing in people, developing people, you're
(13:16):
patient with people like aren't you going to waste?
Like aren't you wasting your time if they leave and say,
well, if I don't make that investment in that person, what
if and they don't develop and they don't grow?
What if they stay? Oh wow, you.
Know and so so I think it's it'shaving an abundance mentality
that OK, I'm going to help develop them for when they are
(13:36):
ready. They're they're typically
overqualified for their current position that they're at now,
right. And then the natural next
progression step is to get promoted.
And where, where I'm going with it is that if I as a leader in
my, if I'm the one that if, if, if the only way they can succeed
in my organization is to can succeed, succeed is if I'm a
(13:58):
part of it, then it's so dependent on me, right?
And so, but if I can help createduplication with that
individual, with certain aspects, with systems, etcetera.
If I you remove that me out of the equation, can the train
still run right. And and my goal as a leader is
if I can, just me being in thereis just adding louder fluid to a
(14:20):
fire that's already burning. Yeah.
So when it comes to the retention aspect, if people are
developing, right, we had a scenario where we, we did have
budget to create to really hire managers for one organization
that was part of. So we just built a structure of
team leads, right? And I treated those team leads
(14:41):
as if they are managers, right, right.
Knowing that there's hey, there's a potential that you,
that you have the ability to grow.
And also if, if this, and if I even told them this, I was like,
if this isn't the right role foryou, at least now you're
prepared for whenever you do go and interview, whatever you can
talk about your experience that you had leading people even in
this small facet, right? And so lo and behold, right
(15:03):
then, when the budget came, we were already prepared because
we've already been preparing them mentally.
Does that make sense? No, Yeah, that makes perfect
sense. So, so then then there becomes a
path. Does that make sense?
Because if I come, if somebody comes in my organization, they
can see the path of OK, here's what it looks like, here's the
road map. Yeah, if I do this, I get this.
If I do this and I get this, right?
(15:24):
And and then I know that there is a line.
And there's also multiple paths too, right?
Yeah, I can go down this path orI could go down this path,
right? And, and at least they see it.
Does that make sense? That makes perfect sense.
You actually validating Heliona as the platform so.
Thank you. There you go.
Yeah. So another thing to that, it's
(15:45):
like even this morning I was reading a report from Gallup and
also like Deloitte, but it's like different kind of research
and they were saying that just disengagement is costing U.S.
companies around 500 billion every year.
That's, that's, that's insane. That's like the GDP of some
small countries. And in the US alone, people that
(16:07):
are not being trained properly, you know, invested into, are
staying within companies, highlydisengaged and they're costing
the company that which is insane.
And and then another part that Gallup said, it says great
leaders are not born, they're trained.
And yet 80, five, actually 82% of new managers and directors
don't get any training. They're just getting their
(16:28):
position and be like, Hey, figure this out, go to work.
So your point, those are the individuals that don't get
trained or invested to and then they end up staying and they're
the one costing not not to theirfault at all.
It's just the company doesn't have the paths for them to grow
to, for them to find their, their voice, their role within
the company. So they're, they're working
there to get a paycheck, not to their fault at all.
(16:50):
That's because there's no structure created in the company
or they don't have leaders that are proactive to a point that
they can train those new managers that usually get thrown
into position like these. Stats are crazy. 500 billion.
Every. Year in the US alone, that's the
GDP of countries that is going to disengagement, just the cost
(17:10):
of it. And then you have 82% that are
saying we have no training. And I want to know just in your
role, as you progress in all these different roles, you've
kind of touched on how you are proactive and actually investing
to a point that people are saying, why are you wasting when
you are like, no, this is the reason why I'm doing this.
This is costly. We don't want them to stay if
this is not the right place for them.
But I want to know, like, how doyou see that play out as as a
(17:32):
leader as you progress, especially in a, in like, and
now we have 5 different generations in the workplace you
have from the, you know, the Gen.
ZS all the way to the Boomers. Like how do you see that play
out as you navigate your role asa leader and hiring and firing
and managing all this different generation?
How do you see that play out in general?
(17:53):
Yeah, great question, right. I mean, that's I can I can agree
with this that sentiment, right?Like it's easy, it's easy to
hide, right? And I think sometimes we think
like, OK, hey, that person's performing.
Oh, well, then boom, slap a manager, roll on them, right?
You know, when it's like, OK, yes, they're performing, but do
they? To your point, are they equipped
(18:13):
to teach what they've been able to do?
Right? You know, just because I'm an
incredible soccer player doesn'tmake me a great coach.
Right, right. Same here.
Yeah, Yeah, you know what I meanright now.
Now I, I like to think that I'm a great coach.
And now I'm coaching my my youngest daughter's team, right?
Are they going to be the most motivated, Inspirated, you know,
inspirated. That's a.
Word. I mean, you sound like a great
coach because my son doesn't like me coaching him.
(18:36):
Oh, it took a minute. It took a minute for my
daughter's daughter to get OK with it.
Right? Are you sure?
Right. But is this okay?
Is this okay? But no, But to your point, it's
a problem. Yeah, right.
And so especially to your point,you've got all these different
people, right? I heard my mom used to say this.
She was like, hey, one of the best parts about working with
(18:58):
people is that you're working with people.
She's like one of the worst parts about working with people
is that you're working with. People, that's a beautiful
balance. And but, but to your point,
like, OK, there's different generations different.
Here's the other thing too, generations, cultures,
personality, right background. You know, you, you see a lot of
(19:21):
how people are raised by how they respond to adversity,
right? What's their, it's twofold.
It's you have to start with the end in mind.
Does that make sense? So it starts with hiring.
You know, I guess there's OK, I can't I there's a book called
energy bus highly recommend it. It's by this guy.
(19:41):
Oh my gosh, what's his name? John Gordon.
He he, he has a whole slew of leadership books, right.
But doesn't matter anyone's background, age, culture,
etcetera, from the beginning as a leader, it's establishing here
is what the mission is. And here is the here's the tone
(20:04):
of our environment. And I keep using the word
environment because my personal belief is that you as a leader
don't create culture. Create culture as a byproduct of
a good environment, right? And so if I can create the
environment, then culture naturally comes about because
expectations, standards, things like that, that all come in
line. I'll, I'll play a role in that.
(20:26):
Does that make sense? Right.
And so, but if I can understand people's personality types, what
are they trying to accomplish? And that, and that takes time,
right? It takes time to getting down to
the nitty gritty. And maybe, if maybe I'm not a
frontline leader, but I have leadership on that, That's part
of my frontline, right? It's, it's OK.
It starts from the top up, right?
(20:47):
You know, and, and if and if we can put in play of understanding
that like it goes back to have you seen that one like meme that
we're talking about? Probably.
But there's like this meme wherelike this teacher's teaching and
it says climb the, climb the tree and you have like a monkey,
you have a bear, you have a fish, you have an octopus, like
all these different animals. Have you seen that?
(21:09):
No, I haven't seen that right. It's a good find that.
It's a good like illustration, just like our school system.
That's a whole nother conversation, but of just
teaching like, OK, it's not justone way, right.
And same thing with leading people.
It's not just one way. Yeah, here's how it is, right?
And so it's, if I can get on theindividual aspect with then that
then there's, there's, there's pros and cons to it because I,
(21:30):
there's things that I can draw from.
Like I remember there was a gentleman that worked for me
that he has way more years of experience than I do, right?
Like like way smarter than me, etcetera.
But nonetheless, he's part of myteam.
Yeah, right. And so how do I, how do I engage
that person and, and, and, and lead that leading coach and
(21:50):
develop that person based off oftheir background where they're
at, Right. Yeah.
You know, and, and in this particular case, not all the
cases, but in this particular case, there's the whole age gap
that like he wasn't ready to receive leadership from somebody
that was younger, right? You know, and, and another
individual as well. So, so, so OK, so how do I
(22:12):
adjust my leadership style to connect with that people, right?
You know, and because again, everyone could communicate, but
very few connect. And if I can connect with that
person and coach and develop andmentor that person based off
where they're at and meeting them at their level, then
there's trust us being built. When there's trust is being
built, then the things that I'm saying start to start to
(22:34):
connect, right? And, and then the things that
I'm saying that when they connect, then we start to see
progress, right? Because we're going down that
road, right? And so, so if I can meet people
where they're at, you find good things right now, there's
there's friction, there's adversity, right?
If they're not willing to jump on the bus based off of what the
standard is of this team, then there's a conversation of is
(22:56):
this the right person for the bus, right.
You know, do I need to keep adjusting or is this person just
not willing to adjust? Yeah.
And that's the, that's the otherpart of the conversation of
like, OK, do we need to find a better role, position, team fit
for that individual or there arethey even part of, of what we
can add to the company? Does that make?
(23:17):
Sense. No, yeah, no, Yeah, that makes
perfect sense because I actuallyhad a similar experience where I
hired someone who was like, probably 25 years older than I
am. Yeah.
And, and we, I, we, I find myself in a position where I
think back then I also had some kind of insecurity of having
someone that older who was a former CEO and now he's working
underneath me. And.
And I, you know, as an African kid, I was told not to speak to
(23:40):
people older than, like, do not raise your voice and all these
things. So I find myself where I
struggle to like communicate with him and I was letting him
do things that weren't aligned with what I, what the company
was all about told like culturally was not a good fit.
And it was the most expensive learning, you know, I had to go
through to eventually I did let him go, but like getting to
(24:04):
that, I had to learn myself that, oh, so this is my problem.
This is something that I need towork on.
So I actually had to go back to therapy to understand why is it
that I still have this issue with like talking, giving, you
know, just delegating tasks to someone who's all better than
me, which led led me to go back to Africa to talk about my
childhood trauma. I was like, what the hell, I'm
(24:25):
in the workplace. Why am I talking about all this?
It's all connected. Though no, it did.
It was wild. I was like, OK, I need to go
work in my childhood trauma. I need to know that OK, and how
can I separate my own childhood experience from this experience
now? And that OK, I created this
space. I brought in these individuals,
even though they're 25 plus years older than me, they're
(24:45):
waiting for me to give him directions, but I was not
because I, I kind of froze the moment we have meetings because
he's like way older. I'm like, how do I tell this
guy? I feel like he knows more than
me? So a lot of insecurities came
about. One of the reasons why I created
this company is because of all of those experiences of like
realizing that they are people that are coming into the
workplace with their own drama. And sometimes they find
themselves in those places. And, and to your point, meeting
(25:08):
people where they're at, it's like one of the biggest, you
know, skills that leaders can have.
And and I love that you you are always, you know, kind of like
intervening in every level as you progress as a leader.
You're not just trying to get rid of people.
If they don't work, you're like,let's find them the right place.
Yes, Yeah, we can shift them to the next team.
Maybe this leader will be the best person for them.
(25:29):
You're not just saying, all right, that's it.
You get get out of here. You know, like get out of here
it. Just goes with me.
It's. People, right?
You're working with people. You're working with people like,
like, OK, those are all, again, my belief system is that, hey,
everyone's, everyone's created for a purpose and a reason,
right? You know, and, and they're here
for a reason, right? What and we, and it could be for
(25:50):
a season or it could be for a long period of time, right?
And so with this engagement thatwe're here, we're here, right?
So how do we maximize this? And it's funny you talk about
that because I think there's a lot of like your identity plays
a lot. It's how you lead to, right?
And and your ability to separate, like there's things
that like to your point is like,yeah, you don't back talk.
(26:10):
Yeah, I know what I mean. You don't back talk.
Oh, yeah? Oh yeah.
You know what I mean? You.
Back talk. You get a backhand, you know a.
100 percent, 100% right, You know, but but with that being
said, though, it's like, OK, like we've had, I've had to look
at my identity, but then also separating the fact that my job
has nothing to do with my identity.
Like what I'm doing with this work has nothing to do with my
(26:30):
identity. So why am I, does that make
sense? Right?
You know what I mean? Like, so why am I letting my
identity like let myself be lessthan right?
You know what I mean? Like even my college education
or your education or where you went to school, etcetera, that
has nothing to do with who you are as that person, right,
Right. And, and so when I started
reminding, like getting to the point to where I'm firming up of
(26:52):
who I am, right, you know, and, and, and, and the fact that even
though I make mistakes, to stillnot dictate who I am, right,
does not dictate the value that I bring to this world, right?
My creative value has nothing todo with that.
Then you start to realize like, OK, all right, so I can talk to
this person that's older than me, right?
Or younger than me, maybe have better education to me or, you
(27:13):
know, whatever, right. But if we can now the question
is, OK, me in your life, does that help you get to your goal?
You in my life, does that help me get to my goal?
Right. And if if we're if we're on the
same page and there's unity, right, then let's freaking go.
Right, right. No, Yeah.
I mean, that's so much pressure.But, but I think if you're going
(27:34):
to identify that I, I'm bringingmy identity into work, maybe
that can help take off that pressure that we, we always
have, especially younger leadersthat are finding themselves
where they're leading, people that are much older than them.
Which also brought me to a question like when it comes to
the workplace, who exactly is incharge of culture?
Is it the C-Suite? Is it the frontline managers or
(27:55):
is it the entire body of the of the organization?
Great question. Everything rises and falls on
leadership and I don't, I think,I think the leader, the leader
is the one that creates the environment.
So I'm going back to what I talked about how like, what does
that environment look like, right?
Like from the top down? And and another book plug is
(28:18):
extreme ownership, right? Like this book called extreme
ownership. OK, me as a leader, I'm taking
extreme ownership of my organization, right?
But then every leader taking extreme ownership of their, of
their, of their, of their side. Does that make sense?
Right. So where it goes from that is
like, OK, if the leader is, is creating an environment that is
(28:41):
conducive to growth. And what I mean by that, do I
feel, do they feel empowered that they can come and talk to
me about ideas? Do they feel empowered that to
come and talk to me about like, hey, like I didn't, I didn't
appreciate how that was taught to me.
But they feel like they can comeand have that conversation, not
from a complaint, but being solution minded, right, to make
(29:02):
it better, right? You know, like it's do I, is it
OK for me to ask why, right? You know, other aspects as well,
right? Like do I feel, do they feel
that they can, that they, they have care for me, right?
So if I can create a culture like that, then there's other
then then then the I'm sorry, ifI can create an environment
(29:24):
that's like that, then the culture is stimulated from that,
right? And then it's up to everybody to
be responsible for the culture of, of, of upholding it, right?
Does that make sense? And, and, and like there's a
story, I'll just be real. There's a story like, and
actually from the Bible, it's actually talks about like this
(29:44):
guy from Nehemiah that he's building this wall, right?
And they were trying to build this wall.
They've been trying to build this wall for like many, many
generations, right? Couldn't get it done from the
enemies. And so then Nehemiah comes and
basically starts from the bottomand says, Hey, everybody, you're
responsible for your section of the wall, right?
(30:04):
So you, your family unit down tothe babies, down to you, you own
this section of the wall, right?And what took generations ended
up taking months, right? You know what I mean?
Because unity happened, right? And so I think if, if everybody
can be the culture bears, right?You know, because they know
like, like again, the teams thatwe've had that had the best
(30:26):
cultures, when you came into it,everyone felt different.
They felt like, OK, this is thisis different, right?
You know, I mean, this is like, like like when people were
slacking, you know, everyone, everyone upheld, right?
Because everyone was on fire. Does that make sense?
So naturally, what happens in cultures like that, people that
(30:48):
aren't meant to be part of that culture, they feel almost
abnormal, right? And they don't, they don't feel
like they fit there. But here's the deal.
That's OK because we, we're running at a different level.
That makes sense, right, Depending on where you're going.
And, and then, but then also thepeople that do come and they do
want to be a part of it, they naturally conform to it, you
know, and they also realize that, wait, hold on one second.
(31:10):
I see here's what this team is, but also I, I've got unique
abilities and traits. I'm going to add value to this
culture, right? And so they can add themselves
to that. And I think it just stimulates
just an authentic unified team. Does that make?
Sense. No, yeah, no, yeah.
You know, I've actually seen like some of that in your
leadership. I remember I think 3 years ago,
(31:31):
you, you you were doing like 100m race with one of your your
team member, like what's his name again?
Askia. He he just got married.
That's right, That's right. He just got married.
And I saw the video and then andthen you, you, you guys were
just running and and and I and Ithink you won.
And I have the same last name ashim.
And I'm saying you've been embarrassed.
(31:51):
They tired blood like that. Yeah.
I was like, how dare you lost. No, for sure.
Yeah. So I like that aspect, you know,
of like just, you know, creatingthe psychologically safety space
in, in like the therapy world, they call it psychological
safety, which is now coming intothe workplace.
And let's create a psychologicalsafety space for people to want
(32:12):
to come and talk to you if if something happened.
It's bro, it's authenticity, right?
Like that, that whole that scenario.
You know how that scenario happened?
We're we're, we're having a one-on-one, having a
conversation and obviously we'rejust getting to know each other,
right. And somehow the topic of speed
came about, right? You know what I mean?
And and then it was a literally just like, like, you know, yeah,
(32:34):
he's like, I can smoke. I was like, I was like, bro, I
don't think you like, he, he, he, he threw a jab at me.
He's like, he's like, yeah, I don't think he could beat me.
And I was like, I don't like what?
Like we'll like, let's do this right now, right now, right?
You know, but it's, it's authentic, right?
And at that time, it was a week that was hell, to be honest with
you. It was we weren't hitting our
(32:55):
goal. Everyone was stressed.
And it's like, listen. And for me, I just think, go
outside. Yeah, something refreshing.
Yeah, Yeah. Let's go have some fun.
That was fun. I saw the video.
I was like, okay, this is different and I've watched the
whole thing and then he lost. I was like, come on man, we have
the same last name. You cannot do.
That and then it ended up five, five other people, one of the.
(33:16):
Races wanted to raise you. Still smoked them.
Yeah. That is why I'm the leader now.
My hammies were smoked too. I know.
Yeah, man. Like, come on.
Yeah. Yeah.
So. Well, I'm sure you went home and
you were like, I'm off. Yeah.
Exactly, that's my workout. I've been ran in so long, I
can't even imagine so. So like, I do have a question
(33:36):
just based of the pressure and the performance, like how do you
balance those two in the workplace as a leader to just to
make sure that you can have, youknow, that, you know,
psychological safety? Because sometimes pressure can
overtake the performance aspect of it where, you know, to my
analogy of the rice cooker, there's too much pressure.
Everything burnt in this scenario, people get burnt out
when there's too much pressure. But there has to be some healthy
(34:00):
amount of performance in in order for the pressure to be
fair, just for the rest of the people.
Like how does that look like? Especially in sales, people can
easily go above and beyond because they have a goal in mind
that they want to reach. And as a leader, how do you make
sure that they don't burn themselves out and maybe, you
know, impact the culture in the way?
Yeah, great question. I mean, because also as a
leader, I think sometimes I've had to shield my team from the
(34:25):
pressures that I'm experiencing from like board commitments,
quotas, things like that, right?So it's, it's shielding, but
then there's also knowing when. And this is, I hate using this
term, but it's the best term I can think of.
It's knowing when to use the stick and knowing when to use
the carrot, right? And there are times where you
(34:46):
you have to, you have to put some pressure.
Right. But it's it's, it's me going and
making a withdrawal from deposits that I've made
throughout this whole relationship.
Does that make sense? No, that makes sense.
If I'm putting the if I'm putting deposits in like if
we're connecting and if I've invested in you, I've take I've
(35:07):
taken the time I've coached you,I've hopped on phone calls with
you. I've walked you through this.
I've LED you by I've won mentorsname as Brad say like leadership
is spelled EX AM PLE is your example.
I've LED from my example. I've done all these things
throughout the process of the relationship.
Then when I'm using the stick, I'm making a withdrawal of of of
(35:31):
an account that's abundant. Does that make sense?
And so I think when you can be, when I've when I've had to do
that, the team has responded knowing that, OK, it's go time,
right? You know what I mean?
And then there's times where I've used a stick, you know, or
there's times where I've used a carrot, you know, of creating
fun incentives, things like that, right?
(35:53):
And so I think at the end of theday, it's just understanding
when to apply what tool within abag, right?
And most times the amateur leader just has one, just has
one tool and it's the hammer, you know what I mean?
And it's. Everything you use a hammer.
Everything you hammer when hammer when sometimes it's the
chisel, you know what I mean? Sometimes it's other aspects,
right? And or sometimes, like, I mean,
(36:15):
there's one time where this individual wasn't hitting quota,
right? And we're getting to the point
to where so it was the other time like, hey, do we need to
have a conversation and let thisperson go, right?
You know, and he wasn't responding.
And so he wasn't responding to one of my managers.
And so I brought him into my office and I just knew the
person was like, I was like, youOK.
(36:35):
I was like, first and foremost, like, it's like you're not
hitting quota. What's going on?
You're you're you're also kind of being a jerk, you know what I
mean? I was like, are you OK?
And then just sobbing, just sobbing, going through it, you
know, just and then just crying.And then come to find out,
right, fiance just left them, you know, you know, running
(37:00):
behind on bills, right? Feeling less than we start
diving into just all the crap that was going on, right?
Because it wasn't like like, no one wants to suck at their job.
Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?
No one wants to, you know what Imean?
So OK, if that's the case, then OK, then why aren't they
performing? Why aren't they?
(37:21):
Why aren't they like, there's a reason for it.
Yeah, right. And, and so it's just taking
time. And then then we OK, then, then
it then it was like, OK, I understand what's going on,
right? It's like, but buddy, we also
got a job to do. Yeah.
So how do we, how do we come to a how do we come to a
resolution, right. And so I was like, OK, you take
the day reset. But then let's come back and
let's talk about let's let's let's get down to the nitty
(37:43):
gritty of how we're gonna accomplish what needs to be
accomplished, right? But there's also a time frame
that we gotta get this done, right?
Yeah. So I'm gonna get there.
I'm gonna get with you. What do we need to do?
Right. And if they aren't willing to
help themselves more, and if I'mwilling to help them more than
they want to help themselves, then we got a problem.
Yeah. You know what I mean, Right.
But if they're willing to help themselves as much as I want to
help them right, then because helping them get to where they
(38:06):
need to go naturally and helps me get to my goal, right.
And which helps get to the company goal, right?
Then there's, then, then, then that's, then that's that
positive pressure. Yeah.
Right. You know, And so, and again,
it's not always warm, warm fuzzyrainbows, right?
Yeah. You know, and so you gotta
figure that piece out too. But I think it's it's just
(38:27):
connecting with people on an individual aspect.
Yeah, no, yeah, that's deep. Because, you know, a lot of
leaders, sometimes they find themselves in that position.
They don't know what to do. No, it's that, oh, shoot,
they're crying. I don't know what to do now.
Yeah. OK, let's let's go talk to HR,
you know for sure. But instead you were there with
them and be present, but then also being like realistic at the
same time. You know, I think that's a term
(38:48):
for it, but I can't remember. Yeah.
Yeah, maybe it's just, it's justempathy.
Yeah, it's just empathy, just being there with someone and,
and genuinely listening, but also being realistic at the same
time, 100% because yeah, life happens.
You know, people go through stuff and sometimes they need,
you know, that, you know, like acknowledgement and it's space
for them to be acknowledged. So thank you for being that
(39:09):
leader. I think that's very, very much
needed, especially today with usgoing through COVID and now with
this very like broken society. I'm I'm calling you.
There's so much going on. People are struggling, you know,
just to make ends, you know, like meets just in general.
So thank you for being like one of those leaders that sit down
(39:29):
and be there with the employee. Another thing that I wanted to
talk about, it's like just mental health as a whole.
I wanted to know just on a personal level, like how are you
managing your own mental health as a leader and then also
working with all the different people, not only that, but
(39:50):
different levels of leadership at the same time.
How is your mental health? Like, how are you?
How are you doing? I guess?
Yeah, Hey, great question, man. You know, I think there's a,
there's been times where I've had like this toxic positivity,
right? You know, which is, or I should
say misplaced positivity, if that makes sense.
Everything's just going to be fine.
Everything's just been refined, right?
(40:10):
Like like, like there's a, there's a, there's a level of
authenticity that you can be with.
Just like, hey, I think like like having a positive mental
attitude is it's not saying thateverything is just going to be
fine, but it's knowing that, hey, I've got a problem.
But there's a solution for it, right?
Right. You know, and there's, there's
(40:32):
there's one gentleman, his name's Jamie, Jamie Santos.
He told me this one time. He said you as a leader need to
give out of the overflow. You have to give out of the
overflow. And what, and what he was
meaning by that was like, if you're running on empty, right,
and you're still trying to give,like I can't give like if you
need a hat, right? I can't give you a hat if I
don't have a hat in my possession.
(40:54):
And so, you know, there's times,man, that like my wife, like
literally actually a couple daysago we were talking about this
is, hey, I need to rest, right? You know, like, like I need, I
need to be intentional with my rest, right?
You know, you know, like, what am I doing?
Like, like, like, yes, I've got therapy.
I I've got therapists, I've got mentors.
(41:15):
I've got like men and women thatspeak into my life, you know,
that that's helping to fill me up, right?
You know, and it's multiple aspects.
It's, you know, like physically,right, you know, just working
out things like that, just letting off steam.
But then also like spiritually, like what?
How am I spilling filling myselfup spiritually, relationally,
(41:35):
right, Like like because all that plays, I think it's all
ties in, right? You know, like I'm like, I'm a
father, I'm a husband, right? I'm, I'm a son, I'm, I'm, I'm a
brother, I'm all these differentthings.
I'm a all the things, right? So like, OK, like how, how is
all that playing into who I am as a person?
But at the, at the core, it's, I'm taking time and
(41:58):
intentionality with, with my identity, right?
And, and where my identity is anchored in, right?
And so I know people have different belief systems, but
mine is through a worldview of my created value, right?
And, and I and, and because I anchor that in that allows me to
go through storms when all hell is breaking loose and I'm
(42:19):
feeling the way I feel, right? But I can keep moving forward,
right? The best example I can give you
is so I have a buddy of mine whohe's, I mean, this guy's like
the smartest, most athletic, good looking person on the face
of the planet, right? You know what I mean?
And he yeah, his name is Justin,right?
Shout out Justin. He he flies AB2 stuff bomber.
(42:41):
Like he literally is like graduated top of the Air Force
Academy. He had a choice of becoming an
astronaut or flying to B2 stuff and he decided to do the B2
stuff right, like like insane, right?
And so having this conversation just about planes, and there's a
scenario where pilots, when theygo through like Gray skies and
(43:01):
they go through storms, there's this phenomenon called spatial
disorientation. They call spatial D OK, What
happens is when you're flying through like a Gray sky, like
kind of an overcast day, like today or storms because of
gravity and how the clouds flow down feels up and up feels down,
right? Like everything feels like you
(43:21):
get this overwhelming feeling that you're falling, right?
And so though what happens is, and this is actually where they
where they thought that most plane crashes are a result of
this is because of spatial disorientation.
This is actually what they thinkthat would happen with Kobe with
that, with that helicopter, right?
And So what pilots have is pilots have gauges and they
(43:42):
don't just have 1 gauge, they have multiple gauges that tell
altitude, direction, all this stuff, right?
Because that feeling is so strong that when they look at 1
gauge, they think that the gaugeis off because they're feeling
is so strong, right? So they have multiple gauges
telling the same thing, basically telling you no, you
keep flying right, you keep moving right.
And the nose of the airplane is called the attitude, which I
(44:04):
didn't realize that. So you know, there are two
things you can control in your in in, in your world, your
actions and your attitude, right?
Attitude isn't your feeling likeit's OK to feel, but your
response to the feeling, right? And So what I have is I have
gauges in my life, right? You know, that I have through my
(44:24):
belief system, through, you know, through the Bible, through
my mentors that I have in my life through, through I have
different people that speak intomy life, therapy, etcetera.
That when I have that off feeling, these and these things
that I've put in place in my life keep me flying in the right
direction, right? Or it tells me when I'm empty.
(44:44):
It tells me when I need to make that, make an adjustment, tells
me when I need to make those different pieces because it
validates. It's still, even if my feeling
is wrong, it validates it. Or if my feeling is right, it
validates it. Does that make sense?
And so as I keep flying through life, right, like you've got
that piece. And I think people, when you
don't have that or they don't put themselves in environments
(45:07):
where they have that, I mean, you're flying by yourself,
right? And, and that's why you see with
crash and things like that. So anyways, so like, that's what
I do, man, you know what I mean?It's a combination, it's a
combination of multiple different things.
But at the end of the day, like,in my opinion, no matter all the
trauma that you're dealing with,everything that you're is all
centered around your, your, youridentity is all centered around
(45:29):
your identity. Because if you, if you,
depending on how you value and you look at yourself, right, it
it, it, it, it changes how you father, right?
We're both dads. You know what I mean?
We're both young dads, right? You know, it changes how you
father and I, I, I, I, I struggled with this for a long
time. My little brother actually sent
me a shout out Gundo. He sent me a he sent me.
(45:52):
It was on Father's Day whenever it was like my like my second,
my first or second Father's Day.And he's like, he's like, wow,
fatherless fathers fathering, right.
And, and I and I shot him a texthere whenever he became a
father, right? You know, like, look at us
fatherless fathers fathering like we're going down a, a road
(46:12):
with fatherhood because our, ourdad died when we were six years
old, right. So we're, we're, we're, we're
we're almost, we're not almost, we're going under uncharted
territory. Yeah.
Because as of this year, I'm older than my dad was.
Right. Wow.
And it's like, it's like this weird feeling that like that I'm
going through as a as a, as a father.
Yeah, but where I'm going to thebut because I didn't have the
(46:32):
dad doesn't mean that I'm a bad father, right?
Does that make sense? Right.
Yeah. And and and in your identity,
man is surrounded. So like, how can you anchor
that? How do you work on that?
How do you fix that? How do you invest in that?
Right. And that's what we focus in on
man. And I think everything else from
there. Yeah, just flows and flows.
(46:53):
You know what I mean? Yeah.
So that's why I can relate to that for sure.
Just basically everything that you just talked about,
especially in the mental health piece and a personal piece as
well. So thank you for articulating it
so well. Yeah, man, you know, I love the,
you know, the analogy of the gauges.
You know, like I, I, I, I think I have a similar example, but
not as specific as that. Yeah.
So I'm never going to steal that.
(47:13):
So come on. Brother, I stole that from
somebody else, right you. Know it's busy there you go if
you're listening, feel free to just take this and share it
because it's it's very beautifully represented yeah.
And you know it, it shows just what's priority and just the
importance of having, you know, those, you know, different
individuals in your life that could bring you back and anchor
(47:35):
you if you were, if you find yourself in like disorientation
and not know what to do decision, you know, like fatigue
and overload with just realitiesof life.
Having those right individual, especially as a leader.
I, I think this is something that I, I also talked about here
on this podcast and making sure the managers, the leaders you
have that individual in your life or individuals in your life
(47:56):
that could always anchor you back if you find yourself in
disorientation. So thank you for that.
Well, articulation and explaining a way that anyone can
understand. You know, I wasn't going to talk
about this, but now that you share this, I want to talk about
it. You know, like one of the things
that came on this podcast based off the interviews that I've
had, I'm calling it the three C's to retentions last life.
(48:19):
You know, the first one is clarity.
And I wanted to get your take onit because as you talk, I see so
many clarity. And the second one is capacity.
And for some reason, I can't remember the third one right
now, but but let's start with clarity and also capacity.
Just as an individual who is a leader and has worked with so
many different people, how do you see clarity to play out and
(48:40):
also capacity? And I'll think of the third.
One Yeah, yeah, you're good, you're good.
A book I read says make the vision and make it plain, right?
And so when, like you need to beclear and specific as far as
what we're trying to do, like, like, we may not, we might not
be clear on how we're going to get there, right?
(49:03):
But do I at least have a direction?
You know what I mean, right? The second C is communication.
OK, OK. OK.
That's good. So.
Planet and communication and capacity I.
Love that, right, you know, And so OK, so like if we have clear
to me, I mean, when I hear that,it's my first time hearing that
it's it's okay. Like like it's clear, right?
You know what I mean? Like like you're clear, it's not
(49:25):
complex, right, right. It could be a simple thing.
Now there's a difference betweensimple and easy, right?
You know, just because somethingsimple doesn't make it easy,
right? But but there's you like for I
think about you and how you advocate, right.
You know, it's clear that your your mission is to help empower
and impact people with their mental health, right.
(49:45):
You know, and that's clear. Yeah.
And so now how you how you get there could be multiple
different angles this. Podcast.
Your company, all the different aspects, the things that you do,
right, right, that's all different, right?
Communicate, I think go communicate, you know,
communication also, you know, it's direct, right?
(50:06):
You know, and, and, and, and it's talked about often, right,
Right. You know, people tend to, they
need to hear things like 7 timesbefore really it registers,
registers, right? Just because I told you once
doesn't mean that you're going to.
I mean, it's like kids too, right?
And it's like, it's like, Hey, brush your teeth every day.
Have so many Gray hair come on out for just like repeating over
(50:28):
and over again over 7 years old.That's something that absolutely
over and. Over and over and over, over and
over and over and over and over and over and over and over
again, right? Same thing with people.
What makes the just because you're an adult doesn't make you
any different. You know what I mean?
Like, like you need to hear it over and again, right?
And it needs to be the same message, right?
You know, until, until the message shifts, right?
(50:49):
You know what was the other one?The last one is capacity.
Capacity, OK, that's a good one,right?
You can't do everything right, right.
You know, and I think if the vision is big enough, it
requires multiple people, right?You know, it requires, it
requires like if your mission isit can only be done by you,
(51:13):
you're dreaming too small, right?
You know, you're dreaming too small, right?
You're too small minded. It should be so big that there
are multiple people that need tobe part of it so that your
capacity frees up, right? But I think so often and I, I,
this is, I'm talking to myself right now as I'm saying this,
that's right. But it's being willing to let
certain things go, right, You know, so that you can have the
(51:37):
capacity for the greater things,right?
And so often times it's more like people, they pride
themselves and be able to do so many things and multitask,
right? But there's no such thing as
multitasking, right? That's you, the CEO of the
brokerage I'm part of. His name is Robert Refkin.
He said this one time in a podcast, they asked him, they
(51:58):
said, you know, like, what's your strength?
How do you, how do you strengthen your strengths and
how do you strengthen your weaknesses?
And he's like, well, I keep focusing on my strengths and I
strengthen those things. But I, I, I don't strengthen my
weaknesses. I was like, wait, what?
He's like, he's like, he's like,no, I, I, I put the right people
(52:20):
in play for my weaknesses, right?
You know, and, and so I bring, what I bring to the table is my
strength. They bring their strengths and
we're stronger together, right? And I think what, what happens
with a lot of times with leadership is that because of
pride, ego, right? But when you really look at it
at the core, right, it's fear, right?
It's fear of letting go because you think that it can't be done
(52:42):
the way you want it to get done or you.
I think that oh, because my handisn't on it, right?
You know that that we're gonna fail, right?
When the reality is is because of your fear is keeping you from
growth, right? Wow, that's a word right now.
Yeah, that's that's a strong one.
That's a word right there. Yeah, you know, but, but, but,
but but that's, that's what I feel.
You know, yeah, no, yeah, that, yeah, that's the first time that
(53:05):
I've seen someone link fear to capacity.
It is, yeah. So that's that's actually very
powerful. It's a give me, Yeah, it's a
mine, mine, mine. That's gonna be the type.
Yeah, this was powerful. Yeah.
This will be the last time I'm going to interrupt your
listening experience. But I just want to say this.
You know how you finish an episode and you wish you could
be in the same room for the conversation?
(53:28):
Well, on October 15, you actually can.
Workplace unfiltered. A Helion experience is your
chance to be part of it all. Live at the Abbot in Kansas
City. RSVP at heliona dot IO before
spots run out. That's Heliona, as in HELIONA
and I'll see you there. We've gotten to the end of this
(53:51):
conversation and we do have a closing question that I like to
ask my guests. So based on everything that
we've talked about from the moment you walked into this
building, or you can even take it back from the moment you wake
up today to this moment right now, how is your spirit right
now? Wait, from the moment that I
came and then now or just just. Just in general, all day.
(54:11):
So from the moment you wake up today to this moment right now.
Listen, my spirit, man, my spirit's full and my spirit's
grateful, right? Because I started my day with
gratitude, right? Right.
You know, and I'm just, I'm telling you, man, I can bring
tears in my eyes. I get emotional about this,
right? But like, I'm so grateful for my
life. I'm so grateful for the, for
the, for the breath in my lungs,right?
(54:32):
I'm grateful for the ability that I have that I'm in this
country, I'm here, we're having this conversation, right?
You know what I mean? Like, like, so it's just a
spirit of gratitude, man, right?And, and so, and, and, and this
conversation is also just validating that brother, you
know what I mean? And so my spirit's full.
And, and so because like a man, we've just been intentional,
(54:54):
right? Because of that man's.
But I'm telling you, that's, that's how I'm feeling.
That's how I'm feeling right now.
That's my spirit. Brother, No.
Yeah, that's a good feeling. Grateful.
I I I just told myself if I havea daughter, I'm gonna name her
Grateful. That's a great.
Yeah. So, yeah.
Wow. Thank you, thank you.
This this has been a very full conversation.
You know, I, I just, you genuinely enjoyed it and I know
(55:14):
the people listening are going to enjoy it as well.
But yeah, thank you for being onthe Heliana inside podcast.
I'm definitely going to have youin season 2 for.
Sure. Come on now.
Hey, this was fun bro. Let's do it again.
Alright man. Thank you.
Got you back.
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