October 5, 2023 • 55 mins
Ever wonder about the philosophy behind your breakfast choices? Bryan and Nick take you through a culinary journey in this episode of "Help Yourself". Bryan and Nick start off with a simple yet innovative breakfast sandwich recipe inspired by Bryan's wife and McDonald's' circular egg trick. Picture this: a dozen eggs, baked to perfection and paired with turkey sausage and thin slices of cheddar cheese on an English muffin. Oh, and did Bryan and Nick mention Moon Cheese? It's our latest crunchy obsession that Bryan and Nick can't get enough of!
But Bryan and Nick don't stop at just food. They navigate the concept of hedonism, its definitions and its implications, especially in terms of food choices. Also the thrills of instant gratification but also the lasting impact of long-term pleasure. Bryan and Nick examine hedonism through an ethical lens and challenge the idea that pleasure can only be sought through selfish means.
And of course, what's a discussion about hedonism without looking at the hedonistic treadmill, the never-ending pursuit of pleasure? Bryan and Nick discuss the potential dangers and benefits of this treadmill in our lives. Is constant pleasure-seeking a path to happiness or just a ticket for an endless ride? They wonder if pain, pleasure and the choice some people make to live a life of sacrifice are all interlinked. As Bryan and Nick wrap things up, they emphasize the role of good habits in maintaining an upward spiral and achieving our goals. So, sit back, enjoy your breakfast sandwich, and let's embark on this hedonistic journey together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Help Yourself.
Food and Philosophy with Brianand Nick.
I'm Nick and I'm Brian.
You know, if we talked abouthedonism, that would give me
lots of pleasure, but cheatingBrian.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That was a, that was, that was a never a truer
statement ever has there beensaid by you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Oh dear, yeah, I thought you were going to
comment on my vocal fry Like wow, you said pleasure.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's like was that a Bill Clinton impression?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
No, no, it was a.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Nick impression.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
It was yeah.
Anyway, what am I eating?
I am.
I've got a couple things I hadfrom breakfast.
This morning I had a breakfastsandwich and the, which isn't
necessarily spectacular in termsof its ingredients or anything
that's different.
There's a couple differentthings that I'll share.
One is my wife made a bunch ofthem, like she basically made
(01:07):
like a dozen breakfastsandwiches so that we could just
grab them and go.
So it was really really coolthis week last, this last week,
because I was able to just oh,I'm hopping in the car to go.
Usually I'd grab like a proteinbar or something like that, but
after a while you get tired oflike basically eating a candy
bar for breakfast and it justalso sweet.
Like everyone, I need savoryand so so able to.
(01:31):
You know, the ability to have asandwich that I could just
throw in the microwave isrefrigerated.
It's already got the.
It was an egg, sausage andcheese sandwich on a English
muffin and the cool thing aboutit was she did a special,
different way of doing the eggs,where she took like a dozen and
a half eggs and she put them inlike a big cookie sheet and
(01:54):
baked them in the oven.
So it made it like basicallymade a big sheet of eggs,
scrambled eggs, and then shejust took a cookie cutter and
like cut circles out of them andthe little disks of egg just
went right on the sandwichperfectly and they fit exactly
and you don't have like itfalling out or anything, because
it's all bound, it's all bindedtogether.
Bound together and Regularverbs are hard.
(02:15):
It's binded, yeah, and Isn'tthat?
what McDonald's does.
No, mcdonald's actually does areal egg, although they used to
make the egg at the locationLike they would do a little
circle thing and maybe I couldbe wrong, somebody could correct
me but they do like an actualegg where they don't scramble it
(02:35):
, it's just an egg cracked intoa circle mold and so it's a
circular egg, that's not ascrambled egg, and so they
basically pop that on there.
I think they used to make thosein the restaurant and now I
think they get them like theymake them at some central
location and they send them tothem or whatever.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, I didn't mean like at an individual McDonald's
restaurant.
I meant like however they make,oh yeah, construct the food
that's been shipped.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, mcdonald's is not a scrambled egg, although
they do have sandwiches withscrambled eggs on them, which is
weird.
They've got both ways, becausethey've got certain sandwiches
have, like the regulartraditional egg McMuffin or the
sausage McMuffin with egg.
Those ones are a regular egg,not scrambled.
But then they also have like Ithink it's the McGriddles and
(03:29):
there might be like a bigbiscuit, egg and ham and egg
biscuit or something like thatthat they have.
I think those ones are actuallythe same kind of thing
scrambled eggs, but they have,like they're sort of folded over
into like a square patty.
So anyway, it was sort of cool.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, I was gonna say that this is either the
subtlest sponsor for McDonald's.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Or you can move on.
Anyway go get an egg McMuffin.
I'm trying to bring it to.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
McDonald's, but anyway it was good, though it
was basically just a turkeysausage patty and some thin
slice of cheddar cheese.
They have these thin slicesthat are about 45 calories per
slice and a whole wheat McMuffinor it's not McMuffin, a whole
wheat English muffin and but thecoolest thing about them was
(04:22):
that they were grabbing go, soliterally they were just stacked
up in our refrigerator.
When I'm running out of thehouse in the morning, I can just
grab one, put it in themicrowave for about 35 seconds
and then hit you know, get in mycar and I can eat it on the way
, and so you don't have to thinkabout prepping your breakfast
or anything like that.
So really, really good.
This time what we're gonna dois we're gonna buy some of the.
Instead of doing the sausagepatties, we're gonna buy some of
(04:45):
the bulk breakfast sausage.
They're just like in a chub.
They call it a chub, but likethe little tube.
I know it's called a chub, Iknow I'm telling you.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I believe you and I'm laughing, it's just.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So they get like a pound of the breakfast sausage
like Jimmy Dean or somethinglike that, and you cook it up
and it just crumbles and thenwhen you put the eggs in there,
you just crumble the sausageinto the eggs and you bake the
whole thing and that way thenyou have an egg and sausage
mixture patty that when you cutit out with the cookie cutter,
that's already done.
You don't have to have an extrasausage patty in there and it
(05:26):
makes the sandwich a little bitmore compact.
So we'll try that see how thatworks.
But it was really good.
I'm also eating this stuffcalled Moon Cheese.
I don't know if I've evertalked about this on the podcast
before, but I'm holding it upfor you.
I tore it off a little bit.
Moon Cheese they come in theselittle packets and it's
(05:49):
basically like they look likethe trail mix or peanut packets
you might get from a conveniencestore.
So like it's like a little, Idon't know if they're baked or
what.
Yeah, they're baked Well it'sreally crunchy.
So you know corn nuts, howcrunchy corn nuts are.
It's like that.
(06:09):
It's like crunchy crunchy andthey have a bunch of different
flavors of it.
This one's garlic parmesan.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
It's like fried and dried.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, I don't even know if it's fried.
I think it might be baked ordehydrated or something like
that.
It would be like if youdehydrated cheese, but it's
crunchy and the package is onlyabout 160 calories and it has
about 12 grams of protein in it,and so if you want something
that's like crunchy and low carb, basically it's good.
So I had this and then they hadanother one that was like
(06:38):
cheddar some kind of cheddarflavor that I had.
Yeah, and then Brian's beveragecorner A little bit lacking in
Brian's beverage corner todayI'm trying to get some caffeine,
but I've got my water bottlehere with some nice room
temperature water and a flatwhite, as the Australians would
say.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Oh, dear so.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, so this is a Costa Coffee Company.
I think I did one of these alittle while ago, a different
flavor of it, but this isflavored coffee with milk in it,
and so it's actually, I think,better than I remember the other
flavor that I had.
I think the other flavor I hadwas like a mocha or something
like that, and I didn't like itas much, but this one is
(07:24):
actually pretty good so, butit's also got a decent amount of
sugar in it, so that's probablywhy it tastes good, so good,
yeah, so for a canned coffee, Iwould say it's good, but that's
my Brian's beverage corner.
That's what I'm eating.
What about you?
What are you eating?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I'm eating a cheese and fruit tray from Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Oh nice.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, I have this pension for eating off their
lunch menu for breakfast.
Yeah, I don't know, just thebreakfast sandwiches.
Generally don't do it for me.
Yeah.
Either the meat I guess I'm asnob but the cheese and fruit
(08:14):
often hits the spot.
Yeah, you know, they've got alittle bit of brie in there, a
little bit of sharp cheddar anda little bit of maybe it's white
cheddar or mozzarella.
Yeah, I'm honestly not sure.
I'm definitely sure about thebrie.
It's like a little type of briewedge.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, you know the thing about there Go ahead I was
just going to say.
The thing about their breakfastsandwiches is that they're all
basically everything there ismicrowaved, so it's like it's
pre.
They just have it and theythrow it in a microwave, in one
of those microwave bags, and youknow.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So I think that plays into it.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, because they're not.
It's not really that like theirbreakfast sandwiches are not
good.
For that reason, I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I would concur.
So, yeah, there's nocustomization, I don't know.
Just yeah, I think you'reexactly right.
So I mean, it's pretty bad whenthe best tasting breakfast
sandwich is the impossiblesandwich.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, yeah, I do like that sandwich there.
It's good.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, I used to, and then I saw like a couple of long
form YouTube videos about allthe things we don't know about
impossible.
Impossible.
Like how they produce it and thedifferent chemical byproducts
there are from all of it they doto make.
To make what is it Basically?
(09:40):
To make P like P, p E A.
Yeah yeah, p produce somethingthat is like blood.
Like there's a lot of justuntested biological processes
that are still being dilated orInteresting.
Yeah, it's.
(10:01):
It's scared me enough to likenot do it anymore, you know yeah
it's kind of like the latestrun of artificial sugars.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Oh, what's that?
What's the?
What is the?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
latest one.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You probably.
Is it like sorbitol, Like it'sin all?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
the drinks, oh yeah, erythritol.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Erythritol?
Yeah, yes, I've heard.
I've read some articles aboutit.
Yeah, I've been actually tryingto cut down on it.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And I've just I've noticed my body have a reaction
to it, that sometimes I'll getmigraines or have to spend a lot
of time in the bathroom shortlythereafter.
I won't go into the details forthe sake of you, I mean that's
a different it's just me I would.
I would totally load theaudience with it, but I don't
(10:47):
want to burden you.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Different is a different different.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, it's a different podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Different podcast, exactly no, but actually the
that food in full office, so bewell, not fat food and empty,
empty, all so be.
Well, I've seen you eat thattray before because you a lot of
times at our toastmastersmeeting, you'll, you'll, bring
that.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'll be nibbling on it.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, but it's actually good.
I mean, you're getting abasically some fruit, a little
bit of fruit, a little bit offat in there with the cheese, a
little bit of protein.
Yeah, and it's also, I would sayI don't want to say more
natural, but based on what youwere just talking about, with
impossible meats and stuff, it'slike, okay, I'm eating a grape.
It's like, yeah, are therethings?
Can you find something wrongwith everything?
(11:34):
Yeah, he's like, well, wherewas the grape harvested?
How much?
How much pesticide was itwashed or was it?
You know all these other things, but between a grape and a, a
simulacrum of meat that wasproduced in the lab, I would I
would probably say that thegrape might be safer for you.
But if you disagree, out there,yell at me, send me an email,
(11:54):
yep.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
We.
We like hate mail just as muchas we like fan mail.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Right, exactly, exactly, it's real.
Yeah, well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And then and then, to sort of indicate the season
that we're recording it.
Yeah.
I got a grande pumpkin creamcold brew.
No ice requested, but ice wasreceived.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Wait, so that's in.
A did you?
Did you just take your own cupto Starbucks and have them fill
it, or something?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, I'm one of those people.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So you can do that.
I didn't even know you couldactually do that.
So you can just take a cup andsay here, put it in this cup.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, they they even incentivize it.
They'll give you a whopping 10cent discount, really, yep, and
and the bigger bonus would be, Ithink, 25 stars on your loyalty
program.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
For using a risk for using your own cup every time.
Yeah, how have I not knownabout this?
I would be taking my cups in toget get my nitro cold brew put
into it.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
And the yeah.
The downside is you can't orderahead right, you have to like
walk in and order at the counter.
So there is a cost, a time cost.
Yeah.
Now I have done that.
If you're not in a hurry.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I have done that, where I'll take the my nitro
cold brew and I'll just dump itright immediately into, like my
Yeti cup or whatever you know.
So it's like cold when it comesout of the nitro and then you
dump it into the Yeti cupimmediately and it stays colder
for longer but but that's awhole, but then you're not, then
you're not really doing thething that you're supposed to be
doing, which is saving the useof a cup right.
(13:41):
Arguably arguably it's worse,because then you're just like
literally tossing a cup thatwasn't even used.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And, and you've got to now spend water to wash your
cup.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, so it's like worse.
I basically have made it worsefor the environment.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
That's usually what can.
More convenient for you meansmore cost for other people.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Generally that could be a whole another episode.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Seriously.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It's like the, the dichotomy between, yeah, ease
and inconvenience, orconvenience and inconvenience.
Yeah.
It's like few.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, also, what is your?
What is your inconvenienceworth?
Because, certain things.
Certain people will be like theyeah, here's, here's what,
here's how much it costs foryour convenience.
So then certain people aregoing to be like well, I'll,
I'll take that inconvenience fornot paying that money.
Okay, we're going off on atotally different subject.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
here we can just throw all of our preparation out
the window.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I was going to say we're just, yeah, we're
literally like having aproduction.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
We've got to recycle bin.
Well, maybe we should.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
maybe we should jump into our subject then, Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I also have my water.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yes, the cow, cow, cow bottle, oh so.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I've I've tried to stop using it.
I don't, I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
How come you don't like the straw?
You don't like the straw, whydid you like?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
it.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know what I thinkthat's the short of it.
I was going to tell you becauseI've been using that and every
time I drink out of it I'm likethis is stupid, especially when
I'm in like a client meeting orsomething and I'm like, hey, how
are you doing?
And I have to like drink out ofa straw.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
You look like a baby.
Yeah, you look like a babysipping from a baby bottle.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Hold on, I've got my sippy cup here, hold on.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Let me get a drink of water.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay, yeah, seriously , that's the one thing that I'm
like, but the thing is thatthere's not a good alternative
in terms of like lids of them,because there's the ones that
just flip up.
They're a little bit moredifficult to drink out of, like
the one that came with this one.
You literally, if you turn itupside down, it will like just
(15:56):
basically dribble out slowly, solike if you want to drink, you
can't gulp your water and I sortof I'm a gulper, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Well, the other thing too is this whole bottle's big
selling point it's a glassbottle, no plastics.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, well, what's the straw?
The straw has plastic, rightExactly, and the mouth mechanism
is silicone.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's like a pliable, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Like that's a.
Mine's even weirder because somy water still tastes like
plastic because it's goingthrough a plastic vessel to get
to a mouth, so mine's evenweirder.
It tastes so much better when Idrink it just from the glass.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So mine's even weirder, because it is a straw
and the top of it is arectangular.
It's rectangular, see, look at.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
No, that's the perfect fit for your mouth.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
No, it's terrible.
I mean, that's what they callyou right, it's Brian Boxmouth
Decor.
Brian, the rectangle.
No, but I'm just saying it doesnot feel natural to put that
shape of a straw into your mouth.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Is it a square peg in a round hole?
It is, it is, that's what I'msaying.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
It's a rectangular peg in an oblong hole.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
It sounds like it'll do damage.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, seriously, so it's grapes, All right.
Well, so you want to get intoour subject here?
We yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
We're a good one, I think Just want to have fun,
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, you know what Cindy Lauper said it once, we
want to play with the idea orthe spectrum of play.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Right, you know you've heard the phrase.
All work and no play makesBrian a dull boy.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And.
But then there's the all playand no work.
Makes you a 30-something yearold living in your parents'
basement, you know so.
Nobody wants either one ofthose extremes.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
But I think a lot of us, either from circumstance or
lack of discipline or both orwho knows what maybe find
themselves neither of those twoextremes, but we want to explore
the extremes in the middle andsee what we figure out together.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
So how does hedonism play into that?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, that's the sort of the philosophical concept to
get us into the food andphilosophy that actually pull us
into the philosophy aspect ofit is that hedonistic belief is
that.
Well, there's a couple ofdifferent definitions that I
found, which is interesting.
The one that I thought wasObjectives what?
Speaker 1 (18:48):
It's all subjectives.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Even the definition of hedonism is depended upon
your pleasure.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Well, so part of the reason why is because I think
that it plays into what we'regoing to talk about.
One of them talks about thephilosophy is the ethical theory
that pleasure, in the sense ofsatisfaction of desires, is the
highest good and the proper aimof human life, which I think has
(19:17):
a certain implication to it.
But then I looked up a coupleof different people that had a,
that were basically philosophers, that they defined it in a
slightly different way and Idon't know I lost my definition
(19:38):
here from Epicurious.
I know I'm scrolling right now.
Hold on a second.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Epicurious, or Epicurious Because another
Epicurious.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Not Epicurious, You're right, Epicurious is
cooking and stuff like that likefood right.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Wait, oh my gosh, that needs to come up again in
our podcast about food andphilosophy, right, yeah, there's
Epicureal, oh my gosh.
Yeah, but there's Epicatetus,yeah, right.
And then I think there's awebsite called Epicurious, which
(20:14):
is like a pun off of beingcurious about philosophy.
Yeah, okay.
I don't know.
I think I was picking on youfor talking out of your butt and
now I'm talking out of my butt.
That's our podcast, everyone.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You got to come on by now.
That's what we do here.
Yeah, we don't know anything,we're just trying to figure it
all out.
Anyway, can?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
we talk anyway.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So here's the.
So here's what I found out.
So Epicurious Epicurious is,anyway.
He calls it egoistic hedonism,and he says that the only thing
that is intrinsically value inone's own Is one's own pleasure.
Anything else that has valuableor, excuse me, that has value,
(21:05):
is valuable merely as a means ofsecuring pleasure for oneself.
So I think that the reason whythose two are like sort of play
off of each other in my mind arethat the first one says that
it's the proper thing to do inlife and Epicurious doesn't
necessarily say that.
(21:25):
His definition is more likethat.
It's not proper that it justsays that the belief system says
this If you're hedonist, ifyou're doing that, then it's the
only thing valuable to you isyour own pleasure, but it's not
necessarily the proper aim inlife.
(21:46):
You see what I'm saying, thedistinction.
I'm making there is one saysyeah, this is what hedonism says
, so I mean a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And I think people who maybe describe themselves as
hedonists don't have the strictnegative bent to the definition
, right Like, I think there's astigma for understanding of
hedonism.
And then there's like the youknow kind, I guess, are the
(22:19):
welcoming the valuabledefinition of not valuable, let
me just say it, and I think thedistinction comes down to
whether it's short term pleasureor long term pleasure, right
Like, there's the hedonism, orthe view of hedonism is oh,
pleasure, like you know, sex,drugs and rock and roll, kind of
(22:43):
you know, scratch the itch, tryto get all your addictions
appeased at once, and once youdon't have a burning desire for
anything, then that brief momentis a hedonistic high.
It's like, well, okay, yes,there are people who are like
that.
Yes, they might describethemselves as hedonists or
(23:03):
others might define them, as youknow, call them a hedonist.
But there's also, like the, Iguess, enlightened hedonists
that I think are out there,where they realize that even
people who are charitable arereally, when they give, they're
not giving out of the goodnessof their heart, they're giving
(23:24):
because it makes them feel good.
Yeah.
Right, like they, like the viewthey have of themselves.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
When they give to a charity, when they see
themselves as charitable, thatgives them pleasure.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I think we're all motivated by different things.
Different things make us feelgood, and it's just that society
kind of maybe defines whichthings are worth feeling good
about or you know are good tofeel good about.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Well, and that you put.
I think you hit on what I wasyeah, you hit on what I was
actually going to mention aboutthat is.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I didn't mean to steal your thunder.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
No, no, no I mean no, you, you know you didn't hit on
you didn't say what I wanted tosay.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
You actually brought up what you.
You took, you took theconversation to the place that I
sort of wanted to go anyway,which is then my.
So one of my next like pointsor points of discussion, which
is talking about the right,rightness or the wrongness of it
, cause it's an ethical studyright, so he's talking about the
ethics of this person wastalking about Epicurus's ethics,
right, so in that is okay.
(24:34):
And he, and even in that hesays the only thing is
intrinsically valuable, right,so he's talking about right
versus wrong, is it?
The judgment comes withhedonism based on what you were
saying is is it okay to seekpleasure?
And some people out there arelike very, very hard lined about
it.
Like, no, if you're, if you'rejust doing things to seek
(24:56):
pleasure, it's wrong.
It's like, yeah, but what ifI'm donating to charities in
order to seek pleasure?
So that's wrong.
You're telling me that's wrong,it's wrong to seek that type of
pleasure.
It's like, well, no, you shoulddonate to charities but you
shouldn't get any pleasure outof it.
It's like, what are you talkingabout?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
But you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I think the judgment comes in.
You know what I mean.
Like the the the rightness orthe wrongness of it, the black
or white of it, which is, yeah,you should do that, but you
shouldn't.
I mean, and even even you gowhen you went back to like sex,
drugs and rock and roll.
But there's a whole faction ofpeople that says you shouldn't
gain any pleasure out of sex.
You shouldn't have, youshouldn't.
It should just be forprocreation period.
There shouldn't be any pleasureLike you shouldn't be doing
(25:38):
that because that's sinful insome way or that's you know lead
you down the wrong path orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
That can be our little secret, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I'm not one of those people.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Um, so, so that I mean the but that I think that
goes into that, like I said, isit is it wrong to to want to
seek, so maybe where the line islike, and it's different for
every person.
So that's why it's interestingto talk about, because where is
that line of yeah, that type ofpleasure seeking is wrong, but
(26:14):
this type of pleasure seeking isokay, and, again, that's
different for every singleperson.
So, you know, where does that?
You know where, like, basically, where does that leave us in
terms of?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I think it maybe, and there's probably a handful of
definitions for this term aswell, but I think one clinical
psychological definition I'veheard for addiction is that you
continue to follow the behavioreven after it's no longer serves
(26:54):
you.
Yeah no longer, even even afteryou no longer get the benefit
or without regard forconsequences.
Right, regardless.
Yeah, even if, even though theconsequences might suggest that
you not do it.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yeah, right it's.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I didn't realize I could butcher that definition so
well.
I probably ought to look it upand recite it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
No, I know what you mean.
It's the seeking pleasure forit.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It's like knowing, knowing you shouldn't be doing
it anyway.
Yep.
And it's like the same behavior.
Yeah, it's like.
The behavior itself isn'tnecessarily bad, it's doing it
almost compulsively, even whenyou're not the benefits don't
outweigh the consequences, right, and you're doing it to excess.
(27:40):
And even that excess might benot by external definition, but
even by the person's owndefinition, when they're more
quote sober minded, and thataddiction could be well sex,
drugs or rock and roll.
Yeah it could be work.
You could be addicted to workgoing to the gym to the alcohol.
(28:04):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there arepeople who do go to the gym, who
are addicted to the gym.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Well, and that's the thing, is like games like I'd be
I'd be super hypocritical andunself aware if I didn't bring
up video games there.
Yeah, I mean, I think I thinkthat's.
I think that's where themoralism comes in is where it
crosses a line of it crosses aline of you know.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I mean, I guess theoretically anything in excess
can be bad, right,theoretically.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, yeah, I mean, that's like one of those, was it
not so profound truisms right.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, exactly, too much is too much.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah, too much is just too much.
Too much is too much.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, you shouldn't do it that much.
But I think that here's thething that where you get into
the weeds, there is because andthis is why these subjects are
always very fascinating to mebecause there is no like I've
been going to the gym.
You know this.
I've been going to the gym fivedays a week.
Now for what?
Eight months, right?
(29:13):
Yeah without fail, and somepeople might say that's
excessive and you can stopanytime you want.
Well, and some people I'm justsaying some people might say
that's too much like for yourage or your level of fit, like
you shouldn't be.
You should be doing low impactthree days a week and you should
do it like 45 minutes or youshould, and that's all I mean,
(29:36):
barring the health consequences.
I mean, I'm not talking aboutthat, but there are some people
that are like, why are youkilling yourself like that?
Why do you?
Why do you go so much?
Why do you have to go everymorning at the same time?
You know, and the other thingthat it triggered for me is that
, talking about habits, which wetalk about quite a bit on this
podcast, because James Clear andTomah Kammock habits and atomic
(29:56):
hammocks also there's there's areally awesome.
So you know but, you werepowered.
Well, the reason I bring it upis because isn't a habit,
something that you do to excess,to to you know that could be a
positive thing where you're justlike no, I'm locked in and I
got to do this every day at thistime.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, you're setting me up for this quote.
I'm pretty, pretty sure it's.
I know it's attributed toAristotle.
I'm pretty sure he actuallysaid it, as anybody, as anyone,
could be sure, but it's.
We are what we repeatedly do.
Yes.
Once, therefore, is not an actbut a habit, and one of my
(30:41):
favorite little things to do isto swap out the word excellence
for anything right Like failureis not an act, but I have it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Right?
Did you say that's one of yourfavorite things to do?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
One of them, yeah sort of did that's whenever I
think about the quote right,Whenever I think about the quote
.
I play with you know, like amad libs game.
I convert the word excellenceinto a blank.
Yeah and I just I'd like to putother actually like like three
times to is true right that yeahhedonism is not an act, but a
(31:18):
habit or alcohol.
You know, drinking to excess isnot an act, but I have it.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So like three times a day.
You do that.
That's when you think aboutthat quote.
Right, like three times a day.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yes, every time I go to the bathroom.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
We are not what we're sorry, excellence, I just
thought.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I just thought of the in vein of the repeating the
thing.
I thought just replace X,replace X's excellence with
pooping.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Pooping is not an act but a habit.
At least if you're regular, youknow we are what we repeat, we
repeatedly do.
We are what repeatedly do.
Do.
That's, that's coming into.
You are what you eat, yeah, oryou are what you digest, oh man,
(32:12):
it's takes.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Well, so I guess the thing is that is that drawing
those lines which we are like, Ialways try to do in my head,
which is okay.
So, knowing that it'scompletely subjective, you know,
the seeking of pleasure isright or wrong based on your own
version of things and your ownreality and your own whatever
you bring to the table as wellas we, we use things that we do
(32:41):
repeatedly and somewhatobsessively in order to improve
ourselves and and some people.
And so, depending on whatyou're doing and how you're
doing it, some, even thoughyou're trying to improve
yourself, somebody might say,yeah, that's pretty hedonistic,
though, because you're justdoing it for yourself.
You're trying to, you know, andyou're saying, yeah, I'm just
(33:01):
trying to improve myself.
What's the problem there?
It's like, well, don't get toobig for your britches, as you
would say, you know if we wentto the gym, we're often maybe
bigger than the bridges.
No, you know how you solve thatproblem.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Elastic waistbands never get too big for your
bridges then, or challengeaccepted there, yeah, well, I
think I think you're touching ona bit of something and I forget
what you said that triggered it.
But I think the other aspectyou know there's the addiction
of whether it's too much, yeahwould also be to what extent is
(33:39):
the pleasure that you're seekingdoing harm to?
Speaker 4 (33:44):
others.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yes, or to society.
So we come, come back to your.
You know you dumping your nitromy Starbucks cup drinks into
your Yeti.
You know, like, like, you knowyou're.
We were just talking about thatand I think that's a funny
example of kind of.
What I'm talking about isyou're seeking that pleasure of
(34:06):
having a perpetually cold cupwhile also seeking the pleasure
of being able to order ahead andget your drink quick.
Creates an inconvenience for acost that others incur.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
In this case.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
You know the environment.
It's a small cost, right?
Yeah, it's those little coststhat add up and I think the
bigger the cost, the bigger thejudgment from rational people,
but also the irrational peoplewho say you shouldn't take
pleasure in anything, right,it's like, yeah, for instance
(34:45):
with sex.
People who say it's forprocreation.
Only they've gone to the otherextreme.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
It's like if because by one line of thinking I don't
hold this line of thinking, butI can see this line of thinking,
that's fairly straightforward.
Right is okay.
Well, the more you do somethingfor pleasure, the less you're
doing it for its product then,there's going to be less of the
(35:17):
product.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right.
If the point isn't for theresult but for the pleasure
itself, well then, you'rehijacking, and you're hijacking,
oh okay.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
It's not go there, Oops no yeah, you have to click
the explicit checkbox on the.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
No, no, it's a word.
It's a word, I just put thewrong emphasis.
Emphasis Emphasis on the wrongsyllable.
Yeah, and they were all overthe place.
Yeah, so there's costs orconsequences, right, for the
(35:59):
things that we do, and the morewe seek that pleasure over
assessing the consequence andcosts to our self or to others.
Yeah, it's where, like what isit?
There's quote functionalalcoholics, right, and there are
(36:20):
ones who can hold a steady joband so on and so forth.
They don't abuse, they're notlike quote angry drunks.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
They don't use their relationships and, in a sense,
they're only doing damage tothemselves.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And a lot of people will rationalize well, that's
not so bad, right, but it's whenthose so-called functional
alcoholics stop being functional, they decide to go grocery
shopping while integrated, orthey get frustrated and start
breaking things or doingproperty damage or whatever else
(36:56):
all the kinds of things thatcan go wrong when someone's
intoxicated Then that becomesless quote tolerable, less quote
acceptable.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Well, and I think that plays into it.
The thing that I was also goingto go into is the relearning of.
I talked with you a little bitabout this before we started.
Recording is like a little bitabout the relearning of pleasure
.
So like this whole thing ishedonistic.
People prioritize pleasureright, or pleasure seeking Right
(37:35):
, and in my mind we change ourdefinition of that all the time.
So there are things that I do inmy job that used to not be
pleasurable at all and now Iactually have a certain sense of
like, oh, because it's builtinto, like a sense of purpose
for me, and it's just built into, and so I get a certain sense
(37:57):
of a reward, or like a, a, a, a,a, a, a, a satisfaction, yeah,
satisfaction, or like evenprobably some endorphins or some
other chemicals that happenwhen I and I've developed that,
though, over time, and thatmeans that.
So is that bad if I'm seekingpleasure in in that in those
ways?
Because then it's, you know,like I said, your, your, your
(38:21):
definition of pleasure changesover time.
So it just feels like, and it's, and even like, I know, having
kids, you know, over time you'relike, you know, and I'll say
this too this is the second timeI've mentioned Toastmasters,
dang, it Is that is that didthey get to?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
did they get to put an X on an adjacent square of
the bingo?
Yeah Right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Exactly they.
So you're, when you first startin Toastmasters, I feel like
you're all nerves and you're alllike sort of I don't know.
You're there to try to combat.
You know, combat that orconquer that, or learn how to
live with it, or however youdecide to define that.
But the people that I've knownwho have been in Toastmasters
(39:07):
for long, long time, years andyears, decades, there's, I
believe there's, a certain levelof pleasure that they have.
I'm saying I'm, maybe I'm.
I won't speak for everyone.
I'll say for me.
I get a certain amount ofpleasure out of public speaking.
And come into my meetings, andI mean there's every Saturday
morning I get a little hit ofyou know good stuff, and so is
(39:29):
that bad.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Which you can't, which you can't say, and to your
point about it being changingover time.
Like when you first joinedToastmasters, public speaking
used to terrify you.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yes, and it wasn't, it was nerve wracking.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
It was an evolution over.
Yeah, that's right.
It was an evolution over time,right yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Right, and so so now.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I do it you learn a little bit.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
So now I got, I finished.
I mean, I didn't finish, I got.
I got the DTM, the thing thatthe goal I wanted to accomplish.
And now my goal is to helpother people in that pursuit or
in whatever pursuit that theywant to do through Toastmasters,
but in an I'm pleasure seekingand doing that.
I'm being relatively hedonistic, if you want to make that
argument, and so is that badthat I'm being hedonistic in
(40:10):
that approach or in that thingin my life?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And even in just conversations, right, it was a
pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
It was a pleasure to meet you.
It was a pleasure to meet you,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It's like, or anytime I have an exchange with someone
, I'm I'm sorry if, if it's allone way, if it's all one sided,
like where I say you're talkingto me and you're getting all the
benefit and I'm getting nothingout of it, I'm going to avoid
talking with you in the future.
Yeah, Right Like it needs to bemutually beneficial.
(40:43):
We both need to get something.
That's something Sure.
We need to pass it out andreplace it with pleasure.
Like we both need to getpleasure out of the exchange, we
both need to feel her, we bothneed to contribute to the
concept you know like, whateverit is, to the conversation.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Well, and I think I think sort of that goes a little
bit towards another thing thatI was thinking about, which is
sort of blurring that linebetween pleasure and you know,
because that's what that does Tome.
That's what that's doing islike your, your line, so like.
So, as an example, we're sothat the audience knows and they
(41:26):
can come, and they can come ifthey're in Nashville, they can
come watch us.
We want to go to an open micnight to basically expand
ourselves, even though I thinkit terrifies many of us that are
going to go.
We want to go because we'vewe've learned that putting
ourselves in a situation likethat allows us to grow and it
allows us to get like a sense ofaccomplishment.
(41:47):
Like I did something I thoughtI couldn't do.
I did something I was scared ofthe do something.
You're.
What is it?
What's that quote?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Do do something you fear, do it anyway.
Well, there's that.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
But do something you fear.
Do something.
Do something you're scared ofevery day or something.
Do something that terrifies youevery day, something like that,
and we've all learned that youget a big sort of a rush.
I mean you get a little fromdoing stuff like that.
I mean if you, even if youcompletely bomb, you're like,
yeah, but I did it, I'm done,like I, I went up and people
(42:17):
didn't laugh at me, but I'm nowI'm sitting down again and I
didn't die.
So then the next time you'relike well, I'll do it again
because I didn't die and I'll goand it's fine, like cause I'd
say the reason I say I didn'tdie is because it's such a low
standard.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Yeah Well.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I'm just saying, everybody says that, everyone is
like well, what's worst casescenario?
Well, I could die.
Like that's that, you know whatI mean?
Like that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
So right and there is that the fear that people have
of getting up like with the jokeis that more people are scared
of public speaking than they areof dying.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yes.
Well, it's that, yeah the the.
They'd rather be in the coffinthan than given the eulogy.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Or they'll even say like oh myGod, I just, I could have died
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah, like I could have died, up there, so yeah, I
almost died Cause.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
It feels like that.
You feel like, oh my gosh, I'mnever going to recover from this
.
This is this, is it?
Which, again, is also like sortof assigning that importance to
you know, to things, and Ithink that I think that probably
we'll get into, like you know,when we get into our next
episode.
But the you know, assigningimportance to things, I think
(43:28):
has a huge tie to whether or notit's pleasurable or not.
Because, like, as an example,when you play video games, are
you like, oh my gosh, if I don'twin this, if I don't beat the
game, or if I don't beat thisperson, I'm playing against.
Or if I don't, whatever, it'sgoing to be miserable, I'm going
to, it's going to be horrible.
It's like, no, you haven'tassigned that importance to that
, you've just you're, you'regetting pleasure out of playing
(43:50):
the game itself and you want towin.
You want to, but you're gettingthe pleasure out of playing,
not necessarily winning, or atleast you're maybe.
You're getting the pleasure outof trying to win, let me, let
me put it that way, so or tryingto accomplish whatever goal,
because it's not necessarilywinning in a video game, but the
.
I guess my point is, if youdon't assign that importance to
(44:13):
that, then there's a higherlevel of you getting pleasure
from that.
So I think that's why we why wehave learned in Toastmasters and
in these other things that wewant to do is you get really
nervous when you think, oh mygosh, this, I, what happens if I
fail on this speech?
Oh my gosh, this is going to beterrible, I'm going to be
embarrassed, and all the youtalk about all the bad things
(44:35):
are going to happen.
Or and when you don't assignthat.
So as you go on longer andlonger, you're like yeah, I'll
give a speech and you don'tassign a huge level of
importance to that speech.
Like you, you know that if yougive that speech and you do
something wrong, or you misspeak, or you use bad grammar or you
use Oz and ums that you're notgoing to die, like you're not
(44:55):
going to die.
You know nothing bad is goingto happen to you, right, and so
then you can allow that pleasureto come in where you're like oh
, okay, well, now I'm just uphere riffing, I'm up here having
fun, I'm up here doingsomething that's not going to
nothing.
Bad is going to happen to meRight.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
But.
But I felt so I thought you weregoing to go a different way,
and uh uh bring it up importancebecause I think the more like
them I thought you were going tosay that the more importance we
give us something you know, themore pleasure we get from it.
But I think, like talking a bitabout that from the perspective
(45:37):
of you know, when giving yourfirst speech at a venue, whether
it's a Toastmasters' Club or anopen mic, is going to be the
most terrifying right.
It's new, it's the first time,so it has a sense of importance.
But after the 76th time it doeshave less sense of importance.
(45:57):
But I think that alsodiminishes the satisfaction you
get out of it.
Perhaps the less effort you'llput into it and therefore the
less satisfaction you'll get outof it.
Right that I think that quoteunquote the heedless who are
enlightened realize that moreeffort means more satisfaction.
(46:19):
You know I don't feel proud ofwhat I do unless I do my best.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
And I don't.
And it's hard to do your bestif you don't think something's
important.
Now I'll say that and I realizeyou know like if I just get up
and give a speech, that's not, Idon't think it's important that
I'm not going to put as muchpreparation into it.
Yeah.
You know, I don't know.
(46:50):
I think there's something therethat cuts both ways, and I know
we're way off our intentionhere.
No, no, we wanted to talk aboutthe opposite of hedonism.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
Right, Well, I just so on that note.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
You were holding onto something, no on that note,
just like I really think thatthat's the right.
What you just said is, I thinkthe danger in hedonism is, you
know, the you know, the more so,like assigning an importance to
something that creates a higherpleasure spectrum to it and
(47:26):
then that pleasure spectrumchanges.
As we've already said, likeyour definition of pleasure
changes over time and, like yousaid, less effort or repetitive
thing.
Hey, I have to give thispresentation every Friday for
the next two years.
Well, about a year in, you'relike, oh my gosh, I have to give
this presentation again.
Right, it's going to be boringand you're just like whatever
(47:46):
Right, and the danger inhedonism is that is that, I
think, is that you get to apoint where you're like now I
need something else, and that'sthat's when you go back to the
name.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
There's a word for that.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
There's a or a term, the hedonistic treadmill.
Okay, yeah, so, and I thinkwell, that's good.
I'm not the first person tothink of it, which?
Speaker 4 (48:09):
good because I'm not the smartest.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I'm not the smartest person in the world.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
It validates your thinking too.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
You know, and it is that idea, that you get
acclimated to something.
Yes.
Or, like in drugs, you developa tolerance.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
So you need, you need more, either in terms of
quality or quantity, to get thathit, to get that pleasure.
Yeah, so that, yeah so that.
That's the hedonistic treadmill.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah, but it also can as things you know as.
As usual, those things can beflipped on their head, meaning
you can get on a treadmilltowards good things or you can
get on a treadmill.
So I call this the downwardspiral versus upward spiral, and
my yeah my philosophy of thatis that you can use these things
(49:06):
.
That's why habits are important,because you can use a
repetitive thing that issomewhat seeking pleasure, that
is, and as you start to get morepleasure, you need to go to
that next level.
You've got that on an upwardyou know, downward cycle versus
an upward cycle, right, You're?
You're now, you're improvingevery time you're doing your.
Hey, I need to go to the nextthing.
Well, the next thing is animprovement, the next thing is
(49:28):
another improvement.
The next thing is so now you'reusing that to ladder up to
whatever goal you're trying todo, Whereas you know so.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
So like in the terms of drug abuse.
Instead of taking more drugs,flipping it and having an upward
cycle of okay, you gotacclimated to giving speeches
and toastmasters.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
So you need to like start giving speeches to larger
audiences or or different venues, yeah, or you know, actually go
back to seminary and get your,you know, was it your degree in
theology or whatever Right.
So to become a preacher.
Whatever it is you want to do,like, go and go to the next
level, Right?
(50:06):
If you've gotten bored, go tothe next level, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah, so that's the interesting thing is that when
you have somebody who'santi-hedonism in my mind, I'm
like, well, you're just lookingat the negative, you're looking
at the downward cycle, you'relooking at the addictions, like
the, exactly what we said.
Everything else that has anegative connotation to it.
You know that in excess, youknow, is like you said, really
(50:31):
it's sex, drugs and rock androll, kind of that kind of thing
, exactly what you've alreadymentioned, and using that
obviously as a term loosely fornegative things.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
And though I like rock and roll and sex.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah, and you know well, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Asperin's great when you have headache.
Right, exactly.
Well, I guess I'm stuckwondering and maybe we, maybe we
save this for another time.
Like what the opposite ofhedonism is, because when we
first started talking about it,I thought it was workaholism.
Yeah.
You know, like all work and noplay right.
(51:10):
Yeah.
Assuming hedonism was a stand infor play, but I don't think
that's right.
And then my next guess wasgoing to be martyrdom.
Right, like where yeah but Iwonder, if it's, which one?
Is it where you love?
You love to feel pain.
I think that like Satan.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Oh, uh, yeah, oh wait , is it sadist?
Or a masochist, or you'remasochist, you're a masochist,
masochist, yeah, sadist.
Like to give pain.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So a masochist like with that,with masochism.
I mean yeah, I mean seekingpain saint or masochist.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Well, here's the thing the thing about it and,
like you said, we will talkabout it more in our next
episode.
But I feel like masochists atleast the people who I perceive
as masochists that I've met inmy life or and I don't mean that
in the sense of like physicalpain, but is that they're more
of an anti-hedonist than theyare a masochist they have some
(52:09):
side of, they have some corn ofsome sort of like philosophical
or spiritual issue againstpleasure seeking in any way.
So you shouldn't gain pleasure.
I mean in the Bible says youknow, the money is the root of
all evil, or the excuse me, thelove of money is the root of all
evil, is what it says.
And but there's all.
(52:32):
There's a lot of people whothink like, yeah, you should not
.
You shouldn't be doing thingsbecause you're getting something
out of it, you should be doingthings because they're the right
thing to be doing.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
That whole sacrificial love or right.
Yeah, I can't think of theother phrases that come up.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, but I think that that.
Speaker 4 (52:57):
I think you're right.
I think.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
I think in our next episode we can talk about the,
that you know, the workaholismand the opposite of that as well
as, potentially, you know somethings to.
You know, what is the solutionto this?
Like, I mean not solution,because there's no, really no
solution, but what is, what isthe sort of the end result?
Where should somebodypotentially strive to end up in
(53:20):
terms of, you know, hedonismversus workaholism, or and or
masochism, masochism as you say.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
So yeah, well, I'm eager for our next episode and
the opportunity to Google whatthe opposite of hedonism is.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
Right, exactly.
All right.
Come back for our next episodeof Googling with Brian and Nick.
All right, we'll, we'll, you'llhear us in the next episode,
all right.
Welcome to Help Yourself.
Food and Philosophy with Brianand Nick.
I'm Nick and I'm Brian.
You know, if we talked abouthedonism, that would give me
lots of pleasure, but cheatingBrian.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That was a, that was, that was a never a truer
statement ever has there beensaid by you.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Oh dear, yeah, I thought you were going to
comment on my vocal fry Like wow, you said pleasure.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's like was that a Bill Clinton impression?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
No, no, it was a.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Nick impression.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
It was yeah.
Anyway, what am I eating?
I am.
I've got a couple things I hadfrom breakfast.
This morning I had a breakfastsandwich and the, which isn't
necessarily spectacular in termsof its ingredients or anything
that's different.
There's a couple differentthings that I'll share.
One is my wife made a bunch ofthem, like she basically made
(01:07):
like a dozen breakfastsandwiches so that we could just
grab them and go.
So it was really really coolthis week last, this last week,
because I was able to just oh,I'm hopping in the car to go.
Usually I'd grab like a proteinbar or something like that, but
after a while you get tired oflike basically eating a candy
bar for breakfast and it justalso sweet.
Like everyone, I need savoryand so so able to.
(01:31):
You know, the ability to have asandwich that I could just
throw in the microwave isrefrigerated.
It's already got the.
It was an egg, sausage andcheese sandwich on a English
muffin and the cool thing aboutit was she did a special,
different way of doing the eggs,where she took like a dozen and
a half eggs and she put them inlike a big cookie sheet and
(01:54):
baked them in the oven.
So it made it like basicallymade a big sheet of eggs,
scrambled eggs, and then shejust took a cookie cutter and
like cut circles out of them andthe little disks of egg just
went right on the sandwichperfectly and they fit exactly
and you don't have like itfalling out or anything, because
it's all bound, it's all bindedtogether.
Bound together and Regularverbs are hard.
(02:15):
It's binded, yeah, and Isn'tthat?
what McDonald's does.
No, mcdonald's actually does areal egg, although they used to
make the egg at the locationLike they would do a little
circle thing and maybe I couldbe wrong, somebody could correct
me but they do like an actualegg where they don't scramble it
(02:35):
, it's just an egg cracked intoa circle mold and so it's a
circular egg, that's not ascrambled egg, and so they
basically pop that on there.
I think they used to make thosein the restaurant and now I
think they get them like theymake them at some central
location and they send them tothem or whatever.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, I didn't mean like at an individual McDonald's
restaurant.
I meant like however they make,oh yeah, construct the food
that's been shipped.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, mcdonald's is not a scrambled egg, although
they do have sandwiches withscrambled eggs on them, which is
weird.
They've got both ways, becausethey've got certain sandwiches
have, like the regulartraditional egg McMuffin or the
sausage McMuffin with egg.
Those ones are a regular egg,not scrambled.
But then they also have like Ithink it's the McGriddles and
(03:29):
there might be like a bigbiscuit, egg and ham and egg
biscuit or something like thatthat they have.
I think those ones are actuallythe same kind of thing
scrambled eggs, but they have,like they're sort of folded over
into like a square patty.
So anyway, it was sort of cool.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, I was gonna say that this is either the
subtlest sponsor for McDonald's.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Or you can move on.
Anyway go get an egg McMuffin.
I'm trying to bring it to.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
McDonald's, but anyway it was good, though it
was basically just a turkeysausage patty and some thin
slice of cheddar cheese.
They have these thin slicesthat are about 45 calories per
slice and a whole wheat McMuffinor it's not McMuffin, a whole
wheat English muffin and but thecoolest thing about them was
(04:22):
that they were grabbing go, soliterally they were just stacked
up in our refrigerator.
When I'm running out of thehouse in the morning, I can just
grab one, put it in themicrowave for about 35 seconds
and then hit you know, get in mycar and I can eat it on the way
, and so you don't have to thinkabout prepping your breakfast
or anything like that.
So really, really good.
This time what we're gonna dois we're gonna buy some of the.
Instead of doing the sausagepatties, we're gonna buy some of
(04:45):
the bulk breakfast sausage.
They're just like in a chub.
They call it a chub, but likethe little tube.
I know it's called a chub, Iknow I'm telling you.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
I believe you and I'm laughing, it's just.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So they get like a pound of the breakfast sausage
like Jimmy Dean or somethinglike that, and you cook it up
and it just crumbles and thenwhen you put the eggs in there,
you just crumble the sausageinto the eggs and you bake the
whole thing and that way thenyou have an egg and sausage
mixture patty that when you cutit out with the cookie cutter,
that's already done.
You don't have to have an extrasausage patty in there and it
(05:26):
makes the sandwich a little bitmore compact.
So we'll try that see how thatworks.
But it was really good.
I'm also eating this stuffcalled Moon Cheese.
I don't know if I've evertalked about this on the podcast
before, but I'm holding it upfor you.
I tore it off a little bit.
Moon Cheese they come in theselittle packets and it's
(05:49):
basically like they look likethe trail mix or peanut packets
you might get from a conveniencestore.
So like it's like a little, Idon't know if they're baked or
what.
Yeah, they're baked Well it'sreally crunchy.
So you know corn nuts, howcrunchy corn nuts are.
It's like that.
(06:09):
It's like crunchy crunchy andthey have a bunch of different
flavors of it.
This one's garlic parmesan.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
It's like fried and dried.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah, I don't even know if it's fried.
I think it might be baked ordehydrated or something like
that.
It would be like if youdehydrated cheese, but it's
crunchy and the package is onlyabout 160 calories and it has
about 12 grams of protein in it,and so if you want something
that's like crunchy and low carb, basically it's good.
So I had this and then they hadanother one that was like
(06:38):
cheddar some kind of cheddarflavor that I had.
Yeah, and then Brian's beveragecorner A little bit lacking in
Brian's beverage corner todayI'm trying to get some caffeine,
but I've got my water bottlehere with some nice room
temperature water and a flatwhite, as the Australians would
say.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Oh, dear so.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, so this is a Costa Coffee Company.
I think I did one of these alittle while ago, a different
flavor of it, but this isflavored coffee with milk in it,
and so it's actually, I think,better than I remember the other
flavor that I had.
I think the other flavor I hadwas like a mocha or something
like that, and I didn't like itas much, but this one is
(07:24):
actually pretty good so, butit's also got a decent amount of
sugar in it, so that's probablywhy it tastes good, so good,
yeah, so for a canned coffee, Iwould say it's good, but that's
my Brian's beverage corner.
That's what I'm eating.
What about you?
What are you eating?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
I'm eating a cheese and fruit tray from Starbucks.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Oh nice.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Yeah, I have this pension for eating off their
lunch menu for breakfast.
Yeah, I don't know, just thebreakfast sandwiches.
Generally don't do it for me.
Yeah.
Either the meat I guess I'm asnob but the cheese and fruit
(08:14):
often hits the spot.
Yeah, you know, they've got alittle bit of brie in there, a
little bit of sharp cheddar anda little bit of maybe it's white
cheddar or mozzarella.
Yeah, I'm honestly not sure.
I'm definitely sure about thebrie.
It's like a little type of briewedge.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, you know the thing about there Go ahead I was
just going to say.
The thing about their breakfastsandwiches is that they're all
basically everything there ismicrowaved, so it's like it's
pre.
They just have it and theythrow it in a microwave, in one
of those microwave bags, and youknow.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So I think that plays into it.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, because they're not.
It's not really that like theirbreakfast sandwiches are not
good.
For that reason, I think so.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I would concur.
So, yeah, there's nocustomization, I don't know.
Just yeah, I think you'reexactly right.
So I mean, it's pretty bad whenthe best tasting breakfast
sandwich is the impossiblesandwich.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, yeah, I do like that sandwich there.
It's good.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, I used to, and then I saw like a couple of long
form YouTube videos about allthe things we don't know about
impossible.
Impossible.
Like how they produce it and thedifferent chemical byproducts
there are from all of it they doto make.
To make what is it Basically?
(09:40):
To make P like P, p E A.
Yeah yeah, p produce somethingthat is like blood.
Like there's a lot of justuntested biological processes
that are still being dilated orInteresting.
Yeah, it's.
(10:01):
It's scared me enough to likenot do it anymore, you know yeah
it's kind of like the latestrun of artificial sugars.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Oh, what's that?
What's the?
What is the?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
latest one.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You probably.
Is it like sorbitol, Like it'sin all?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
the drinks, oh yeah, erythritol.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Erythritol?
Yeah, yes, I've heard.
I've read some articles aboutit.
Yeah, I've been actually tryingto cut down on it.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And I've just I've noticed my body have a reaction
to it, that sometimes I'll getmigraines or have to spend a lot
of time in the bathroom shortlythereafter.
I won't go into the details forthe sake of you, I mean that's
a different it's just me I would.
I would totally load theaudience with it, but I don't
(10:47):
want to burden you.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Different is a different different.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, it's a different podcast.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Different podcast, exactly no, but actually the
that food in full office, so bewell, not fat food and empty,
empty, all so be.
Well, I've seen you eat thattray before because you a lot of
times at our toastmastersmeeting, you'll, you'll, bring
that.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I'll be nibbling on it.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Yeah, but it's actually good.
I mean, you're getting abasically some fruit, a little
bit of fruit, a little bit offat in there with the cheese, a
little bit of protein.
Yeah, and it's also, I would sayI don't want to say more
natural, but based on what youwere just talking about, with
impossible meats and stuff, it'slike, okay, I'm eating a grape.
It's like, yeah, are therethings?
Can you find something wrongwith everything?
(11:34):
Yeah, he's like, well, wherewas the grape harvested?
How much?
How much pesticide was itwashed or was it?
You know all these other things, but between a grape and a, a
simulacrum of meat that wasproduced in the lab, I would I
would probably say that thegrape might be safer for you.
But if you disagree, out there,yell at me, send me an email,
(11:54):
yep.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
We.
We like hate mail just as muchas we like fan mail.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Right, exactly, exactly, it's real.
Yeah, well, that's good.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And then and then, to sort of indicate the season
that we're recording it.
Yeah.
I got a grande pumpkin creamcold brew.
No ice requested, but ice wasreceived.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Wait, so that's in.
A did you?
Did you just take your own cupto Starbucks and have them fill
it, or something?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, I'm one of those people.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
So you can do that.
I didn't even know you couldactually do that.
So you can just take a cup andsay here, put it in this cup.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah, they they even incentivize it.
They'll give you a whopping 10cent discount, really, yep, and
and the bigger bonus would be, Ithink, 25 stars on your loyalty
program.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
For using a risk for using your own cup every time.
Yeah, how have I not knownabout this?
I would be taking my cups in toget get my nitro cold brew put
into it.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
And the yeah.
The downside is you can't orderahead right, you have to like
walk in and order at the counter.
So there is a cost, a time cost.
Yeah.
Now I have done that.
If you're not in a hurry.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
I have done that, where I'll take the my nitro
cold brew and I'll just dump itright immediately into, like my
Yeti cup or whatever you know.
So it's like cold when it comesout of the nitro and then you
dump it into the Yeti cupimmediately and it stays colder
for longer but but that's awhole, but then you're not, then
you're not really doing thething that you're supposed to be
doing, which is saving the useof a cup right.
(13:41):
Arguably arguably it's worse,because then you're just like
literally tossing a cup thatwasn't even used.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And, and you've got to now spend water to wash your
cup.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Yeah, so it's like worse.
I basically have made it worsefor the environment.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
That's usually what can.
More convenient for you meansmore cost for other people.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Generally that could be a whole another episode.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Seriously.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
It's like the, the dichotomy between, yeah, ease
and inconvenience, orconvenience and inconvenience.
Yeah.
It's like few.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, also, what is your?
What is your inconvenienceworth?
Because, certain things.
Certain people will be like theyeah, here's, here's what,
here's how much it costs foryour convenience.
So then certain people aregoing to be like well, I'll,
I'll take that inconvenience fornot paying that money.
Okay, we're going off on atotally different subject.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
here we can just throw all of our preparation out
the window.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
I was going to say we're just, yeah, we're
literally like having aproduction.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
We've got to recycle bin.
Well, maybe we should.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
maybe we should jump into our subject then, Okay.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I also have my water.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yes, the cow, cow, cow bottle, oh so.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I've I've tried to stop using it.
I don't, I don't like it.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
How come you don't like the straw?
You don't like the straw, whydid you like?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
it.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, you know what I thinkthat's the short of it.
I was going to tell you becauseI've been using that and every
time I drink out of it I'm likethis is stupid, especially when
I'm in like a client meeting orsomething and I'm like, hey, how
are you doing?
And I have to like drink out ofa straw.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
You look like a baby.
Yeah, you look like a babysipping from a baby bottle.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Hold on, I've got my sippy cup here, hold on.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Let me get a drink of water.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Okay, yeah, seriously , that's the one thing that I'm
like, but the thing is thatthere's not a good alternative
in terms of like lids of them,because there's the ones that
just flip up.
They're a little bit moredifficult to drink out of, like
the one that came with this one.
You literally, if you turn itupside down, it will like just
(15:56):
basically dribble out slowly, solike if you want to drink, you
can't gulp your water and I sortof I'm a gulper, so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Well, the other thing too is this whole bottle's big
selling point it's a glassbottle, no plastics.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, well, what's the straw?
The straw has plastic, rightExactly, and the mouth mechanism
is silicone.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
It's like a pliable, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Like that's a.
Mine's even weirder because somy water still tastes like
plastic because it's goingthrough a plastic vessel to get
to a mouth, so mine's evenweirder.
It tastes so much better when Idrink it just from the glass.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So mine's even weirder, because it is a straw
and the top of it is arectangular.
It's rectangular, see, look at.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
No, that's the perfect fit for your mouth.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
No, it's terrible.
I mean, that's what they callyou right, it's Brian Boxmouth
Decor.
Brian, the rectangle.
No, but I'm just saying it doesnot feel natural to put that
shape of a straw into your mouth.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Is it a square peg in a round hole?
It is, it is, that's what I'msaying.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
It's a rectangular peg in an oblong hole.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
It sounds like it'll do damage.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, seriously, so it's grapes, All right.
Well, so you want to get intoour subject here?
We yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
We're a good one, I think Just want to have fun,
right yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah, you know what Cindy Lauper said it once, we
want to play with the idea orthe spectrum of play.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Right, you know you've heard the phrase.
All work and no play makesBrian a dull boy.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And.
But then there's the all playand no work.
Makes you a 30-something yearold living in your parents'
basement, you know so.
Nobody wants either one ofthose extremes.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
But I think a lot of us, either from circumstance or
lack of discipline or both orwho knows what maybe find
themselves neither of those twoextremes, but we want to explore
the extremes in the middle andsee what we figure out together.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely and.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
So how does hedonism play into that?
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well, that's the sort of the philosophical concept to
get us into the food andphilosophy that actually pull us
into the philosophy aspect ofit is that hedonistic belief is
that.
Well, there's a couple ofdifferent definitions that I
found, which is interesting.
The one that I thought wasObjectives what?
Speaker 1 (18:48):
It's all subjectives.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Even the definition of hedonism is depended upon
your pleasure.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Well, so part of the reason why is because I think
that it plays into what we'regoing to talk about.
One of them talks about thephilosophy is the ethical theory
that pleasure, in the sense ofsatisfaction of desires, is the
highest good and the proper aimof human life, which I think has
(19:17):
a certain implication to it.
But then I looked up a coupleof different people that had a,
that were basically philosophers, that they defined it in a
slightly different way and Idon't know I lost my definition
(19:38):
here from Epicurious.
I know I'm scrolling right now.
Hold on a second.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Epicurious, or Epicurious Because another
Epicurious.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Not Epicurious, You're right, Epicurious is
cooking and stuff like that likefood right.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Wait, oh my gosh, that needs to come up again in
our podcast about food andphilosophy, right, yeah, there's
Epicureal, oh my gosh.
Yeah, but there's Epicatetus,yeah, right.
And then I think there's awebsite called Epicurious, which
(20:14):
is like a pun off of beingcurious about philosophy.
Yeah, okay.
I don't know.
I think I was picking on youfor talking out of your butt and
now I'm talking out of my butt.
That's our podcast, everyone.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
You got to come on by now.
That's what we do here.
Yeah, we don't know anything,we're just trying to figure it
all out.
Anyway, can?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
we talk anyway.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
So here's the.
So here's what I found out.
So Epicurious Epicurious is,anyway.
He calls it egoistic hedonism,and he says that the only thing
that is intrinsically value inone's own Is one's own pleasure.
Anything else that has valuableor, excuse me, that has value,
(21:05):
is valuable merely as a means ofsecuring pleasure for oneself.
So I think that the reason whythose two are like sort of play
off of each other in my mind arethat the first one says that
it's the proper thing to do inlife and Epicurious doesn't
necessarily say that.
(21:25):
His definition is more likethat.
It's not proper that it justsays that the belief system says
this If you're hedonist, ifyou're doing that, then it's the
only thing valuable to you isyour own pleasure, but it's not
necessarily the proper aim inlife.
(21:46):
You see what I'm saying, thedistinction.
I'm making there is one saysyeah, this is what hedonism says
, so I mean a lot.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And I think people who maybe describe themselves as
hedonists don't have the strictnegative bent to the definition
, right Like, I think there's astigma for understanding of
hedonism.
And then there's like the youknow kind, I guess, are the
(22:19):
welcoming the valuabledefinition of not valuable, let
me just say it, and I think thedistinction comes down to
whether it's short term pleasureor long term pleasure, right
Like, there's the hedonism, orthe view of hedonism is oh,
pleasure, like you know, sex,drugs and rock and roll, kind of
(22:43):
you know, scratch the itch, tryto get all your addictions
appeased at once, and once youdon't have a burning desire for
anything, then that brief momentis a hedonistic high.
It's like, well, okay, yes,there are people who are like
that.
Yes, they might describethemselves as hedonists or
(23:03):
others might define them, as youknow, call them a hedonist.
But there's also, like the, Iguess, enlightened hedonists
that I think are out there,where they realize that even
people who are charitable arereally, when they give, they're
not giving out of the goodnessof their heart, they're giving
(23:24):
because it makes them feel good.
Yeah.
Right, like they, like the viewthey have of themselves.
Speaker 4 (23:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
When they give to a charity, when they see
themselves as charitable, thatgives them pleasure.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
I think we're all motivated by different things.
Different things make us feelgood, and it's just that society
kind of maybe defines whichthings are worth feeling good
about or you know are good tofeel good about.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Well, and that you put.
I think you hit on what I wasyeah, you hit on what I was
actually going to mention aboutthat is.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I didn't mean to steal your thunder.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
No, no, no I mean no, you, you know you didn't hit on
you didn't say what I wanted tosay.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
You actually brought up what you.
You took, you took theconversation to the place that I
sort of wanted to go anyway,which is then my.
So one of my next like pointsor points of discussion, which
is talking about the right,rightness or the wrongness of it
, cause it's an ethical studyright, so he's talking about the
ethics of this person wastalking about Epicurus's ethics,
right, so in that is okay.
(24:34):
And he, and even in that hesays the only thing is
intrinsically valuable, right,so he's talking about right
versus wrong, is it?
The judgment comes withhedonism based on what you were
saying is is it okay to seekpleasure?
And some people out there arelike very, very hard lined about
it.
Like, no, if you're, if you'rejust doing things to seek
(24:56):
pleasure, it's wrong.
It's like, yeah, but what ifI'm donating to charities in
order to seek pleasure?
So that's wrong.
You're telling me that's wrong,it's wrong to seek that type of
pleasure.
It's like, well, no, you shoulddonate to charities but you
shouldn't get any pleasure outof it.
It's like, what are you talkingabout?
Speaker 1 (25:12):
But you see what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I think the judgment comes in.
You know what I mean.
Like the the the rightness orthe wrongness of it, the black
or white of it, which is, yeah,you should do that, but you
shouldn't.
I mean, and even even you gowhen you went back to like sex,
drugs and rock and roll.
But there's a whole faction ofpeople that says you shouldn't
gain any pleasure out of sex.
You shouldn't have, youshouldn't.
It should just be forprocreation period.
There shouldn't be any pleasureLike you shouldn't be doing
(25:38):
that because that's sinful insome way or that's you know lead
you down the wrong path orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
That can be our little secret, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
I'm not one of those people.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Um, so, so that I mean the but that I think that
goes into that, like I said, isit is it wrong to to want to
seek, so maybe where the line islike, and it's different for
every person.
So that's why it's interestingto talk about, because where is
that line of yeah, that type ofpleasure seeking is wrong, but
(26:14):
this type of pleasure seeking isokay, and, again, that's
different for every singleperson.
So, you know, where does that?
You know where, like, basically, where does that leave us in
terms of?
Speaker 1 (26:30):
I think it maybe, and there's probably a handful of
definitions for this term aswell, but I think one clinical
psychological definition I'veheard for addiction is that you
continue to follow the behavioreven after it's no longer serves
(26:54):
you.
Yeah no longer, even even afteryou no longer get the benefit
or without regard forconsequences.
Right, regardless.
Yeah, even if, even though theconsequences might suggest that
you not do it.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Yeah, right it's.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
I didn't realize I could butcher that definition so
well.
I probably ought to look it upand recite it.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
No, I know what you mean.
It's the seeking pleasure forit.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
It's like knowing, knowing you shouldn't be doing
it anyway.
Yep.
And it's like the same behavior.
Yeah, it's like.
The behavior itself isn'tnecessarily bad, it's doing it
almost compulsively, even whenyou're not the benefits don't
outweigh the consequences, right, and you're doing it to excess.
(27:40):
And even that excess might benot by external definition, but
even by the person's owndefinition, when they're more
quote sober minded, and thataddiction could be well sex,
drugs or rock and roll.
Yeah it could be work.
You could be addicted to workgoing to the gym to the alcohol.
(28:04):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there arepeople who do go to the gym, who
are addicted to the gym.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Yeah right.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Well, and that's the thing, is like games like I'd be
I'd be super hypocritical andunself aware if I didn't bring
up video games there.
Yeah, I mean, I think I thinkthat's.
I think that's where themoralism comes in is where it
crosses a line of it crosses aline of you know.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
I mean, I guess theoretically anything in excess
can be bad, right,theoretically.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Well, yeah, I mean, that's like one of those, was it
not so profound truisms right.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, exactly, too much is too much.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah, too much is just too much.
Too much is too much.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, you shouldn't do it that much.
But I think that here's thething that where you get into
the weeds, there is because andthis is why these subjects are
always very fascinating to mebecause there is no like I've
been going to the gym.
You know this.
I've been going to the gym fivedays a week.
Now for what?
Eight months, right?
(29:13):
Yeah without fail, and somepeople might say that's
excessive and you can stopanytime you want.
Well, and some people I'm justsaying some people might say
that's too much like for yourage or your level of fit, like
you shouldn't be.
You should be doing low impactthree days a week and you should
do it like 45 minutes or youshould, and that's all I mean,
(29:36):
barring the health consequences.
I mean, I'm not talking aboutthat, but there are some people
that are like, why are youkilling yourself like that?
Why do you?
Why do you go so much?
Why do you have to go everymorning at the same time?
You know, and the other thingthat it triggered for me is that
, talking about habits, which wetalk about quite a bit on this
podcast, because James Clear andTomah Kammock habits and atomic
(29:56):
hammocks also there's there's areally awesome.
So you know but, you werepowered.
Well, the reason I bring it upis because isn't a habit,
something that you do to excess,to to you know that could be a
positive thing where you're justlike no, I'm locked in and I
got to do this every day at thistime.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Yeah, you're setting me up for this quote.
I'm pretty, pretty sure it's.
I know it's attributed toAristotle.
I'm pretty sure he actuallysaid it, as anybody, as anyone,
could be sure, but it's.
We are what we repeatedly do.
Yes.
Once, therefore, is not an actbut a habit, and one of my
(30:41):
favorite little things to do isto swap out the word excellence
for anything right Like failureis not an act, but I have it.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Right?
Did you say that's one of yourfavorite things to do?
Speaker 1 (30:57):
One of them, yeah sort of did that's whenever I
think about the quote right,Whenever I think about the quote
.
I play with you know, like amad libs game.
I convert the word excellenceinto a blank.
Yeah and I just I'd like to putother actually like like three
times to is true right that yeahhedonism is not an act, but a
(31:18):
habit or alcohol.
You know, drinking to excess isnot an act, but I have it.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So like three times a day.
You do that.
That's when you think aboutthat quote.
Right, like three times a day.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yes, every time I go to the bathroom.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
We are not what we're sorry, excellence, I just
thought.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
I just thought of the in vein of the repeating the
thing.
I thought just replace X,replace X's excellence with
pooping.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Pooping is not an act but a habit.
At least if you're regular, youknow we are what we repeat, we
repeatedly do.
We are what repeatedly do.
Do.
That's, that's coming into.
You are what you eat, yeah, oryou are what you digest, oh man,
(32:12):
it's takes.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Well, so I guess the thing is that is that drawing
those lines which we are like, Ialways try to do in my head,
which is okay.
So, knowing that it'scompletely subjective, you know,
the seeking of pleasure isright or wrong based on your own
version of things and your ownreality and your own whatever
you bring to the table as wellas we, we use things that we do
(32:41):
repeatedly and somewhatobsessively in order to improve
ourselves and and some people.
And so, depending on whatyou're doing and how you're
doing it, some, even thoughyou're trying to improve
yourself, somebody might say,yeah, that's pretty hedonistic,
though, because you're justdoing it for yourself.
You're trying to, you know, andyou're saying, yeah, I'm just
(33:01):
trying to improve myself.
What's the problem there?
It's like, well, don't get toobig for your britches, as you
would say, you know if we wentto the gym, we're often maybe
bigger than the bridges.
No, you know how you solve thatproblem.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Elastic waistbands never get too big for your
bridges then, or challengeaccepted there, yeah, well, I
think I think you're touching ona bit of something and I forget
what you said that triggered it.
But I think the other aspectyou know there's the addiction
of whether it's too much, yeahwould also be to what extent is
(33:39):
the pleasure that you're seekingdoing harm to?
Speaker 4 (33:44):
others.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yes, or to society.
So we come, come back to your.
You know you dumping your nitromy Starbucks cup drinks into
your Yeti.
You know, like, like, you knowyou're.
We were just talking about thatand I think that's a funny
example of kind of.
What I'm talking about isyou're seeking that pleasure of
(34:06):
having a perpetually cold cupwhile also seeking the pleasure
of being able to order ahead andget your drink quick.
Creates an inconvenience for acost that others incur.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
In this case.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
You know the environment.
It's a small cost, right?
Yeah, it's those little coststhat add up and I think the
bigger the cost, the bigger thejudgment from rational people,
but also the irrational peoplewho say you shouldn't take
pleasure in anything, right,it's like, yeah, for instance
(34:45):
with sex.
People who say it's forprocreation.
Only they've gone to the otherextreme.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
It's like if because by one line of thinking I don't
hold this line of thinking, butI can see this line of thinking,
that's fairly straightforward.
Right is okay.
Well, the more you do somethingfor pleasure, the less you're
doing it for its product then,there's going to be less of the
(35:17):
product.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Right.
If the point isn't for theresult but for the pleasure
itself, well then, you'rehijacking, and you're hijacking,
oh okay.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
It's not go there, Oops no yeah, you have to click
the explicit checkbox on the.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
No, no, it's a word.
It's a word, I just put thewrong emphasis.
Emphasis Emphasis on the wrongsyllable.
Yeah, and they were all overthe place.
Yeah, so there's costs orconsequences, right, for the
(35:59):
things that we do, and the morewe seek that pleasure over
assessing the consequence andcosts to our self or to others.
Yeah, it's where, like what isit?
There's quote functionalalcoholics, right, and there are
(36:20):
ones who can hold a steady joband so on and so forth.
They don't abuse, they're notlike quote angry drunks.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
They don't use their relationships and, in a sense,
they're only doing damage tothemselves.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
And a lot of people will rationalize well, that's
not so bad, right, but it's whenthose so-called functional
alcoholics stop being functional, they decide to go grocery
shopping while integrated, orthey get frustrated and start
breaking things or doingproperty damage or whatever else
(36:56):
all the kinds of things thatcan go wrong when someone's
intoxicated Then that becomesless quote tolerable, less quote
acceptable.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Well, and I think that plays into it.
The thing that I was also goingto go into is the relearning of.
I talked with you a little bitabout this before we started.
Recording is like a little bitabout the relearning of pleasure
.
So like this whole thing ishedonistic.
People prioritize pleasureright, or pleasure seeking Right
(37:35):
, and in my mind we change ourdefinition of that all the time.
So there are things that I do inmy job that used to not be
pleasurable at all and now Iactually have a certain sense of
like, oh, because it's builtinto, like a sense of purpose
for me, and it's just built into, and so I get a certain sense
(37:57):
of a reward, or like a, a, a, a,a, a, a, a satisfaction, yeah,
satisfaction, or like evenprobably some endorphins or some
other chemicals that happenwhen I and I've developed that,
though, over time, and thatmeans that.
So is that bad if I'm seekingpleasure in in that in those
ways?
Because then it's, you know,like I said, your, your, your
(38:21):
definition of pleasure changesover time.
So it just feels like, and it's, and even like, I know, having
kids, you know, over time you'relike, you know, and I'll say
this too this is the second timeI've mentioned Toastmasters,
dang, it Is that is that didthey get to?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
did they get to put an X on an adjacent square of
the bingo?
Yeah Right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Exactly they.
So you're, when you first startin Toastmasters, I feel like
you're all nerves and you're alllike sort of I don't know.
You're there to try to combat.
You know, combat that orconquer that, or learn how to
live with it, or however youdecide to define that.
But the people that I've knownwho have been in Toastmasters
(39:07):
for long, long time, years andyears, decades, there's, I
believe there's, a certain levelof pleasure that they have.
I'm saying I'm, maybe I'm.
I won't speak for everyone.
I'll say for me.
I get a certain amount ofpleasure out of public speaking.
And come into my meetings, andI mean there's every Saturday
morning I get a little hit ofyou know good stuff, and so is
(39:29):
that bad.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Which you can't, which you can't say, and to your
point about it being changingover time.
Like when you first joinedToastmasters, public speaking
used to terrify you.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yes, and it wasn't, it was nerve wracking.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
It was an evolution over.
Yeah, that's right.
It was an evolution over time,right yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Right, and so so now.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I do it you learn a little bit.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
So now I got, I finished.
I mean, I didn't finish, I got.
I got the DTM, the thing thatthe goal I wanted to accomplish.
And now my goal is to helpother people in that pursuit or
in whatever pursuit that theywant to do through Toastmasters,
but in an I'm pleasure seekingand doing that.
I'm being relatively hedonistic, if you want to make that
argument, and so is that badthat I'm being hedonistic in
(40:10):
that approach or in that thingin my life?
Speaker 1 (40:13):
And even in just conversations, right, it was a
pleasure speaking with you.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
It was a pleasure to meet you.
It was a pleasure to meet you,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
It's like, or anytime I have an exchange with someone
, I'm I'm sorry if, if it's allone way, if it's all one sided,
like where I say you're talkingto me and you're getting all the
benefit and I'm getting nothingout of it, I'm going to avoid
talking with you in the future.
Yeah, Right Like it needs to bemutually beneficial.
(40:43):
We both need to get something.
That's something Sure.
We need to pass it out andreplace it with pleasure.
Like we both need to getpleasure out of the exchange, we
both need to feel her, we bothneed to contribute to the
concept you know like, whateverit is, to the conversation.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Well, and I think I think sort of that goes a little
bit towards another thing thatI was thinking about, which is
sort of blurring that linebetween pleasure and you know,
because that's what that does Tome.
That's what that's doing islike your, your line, so like.
So, as an example, we're sothat the audience knows and they
(41:26):
can come, and they can come ifthey're in Nashville, they can
come watch us.
We want to go to an open micnight to basically expand
ourselves, even though I thinkit terrifies many of us that are
going to go.
We want to go because we'vewe've learned that putting
ourselves in a situation likethat allows us to grow and it
allows us to get like a sense ofaccomplishment.
(41:47):
Like I did something I thoughtI couldn't do.
I did something I was scared ofthe do something.
You're.
What is it?
What's that quote?
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Do do something you fear, do it anyway.
Well, there's that.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
But do something you fear.
Do something.
Do something you're scared ofevery day or something.
Do something that terrifies youevery day, something like that,
and we've all learned that youget a big sort of a rush.
I mean you get a little fromdoing stuff like that.
I mean if you, even if youcompletely bomb, you're like,
yeah, but I did it, I'm done,like I, I went up and people
(42:17):
didn't laugh at me, but I'm nowI'm sitting down again and I
didn't die.
So then the next time you'relike well, I'll do it again
because I didn't die and I'll goand it's fine, like cause I'd
say the reason I say I didn'tdie is because it's such a low
standard.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Yeah Well.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I'm just saying, everybody says that, everyone is
like well, what's worst casescenario?
Well, I could die.
Like that's that, you know whatI mean?
Like that's yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
So right and there is that the fear that people have
of getting up like with the jokeis that more people are scared
of public speaking than they areof dying.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yes.
Well, it's that, yeah the the.
They'd rather be in the coffinthan than given the eulogy.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Or they'll even say like oh myGod, I just, I could have died
Right.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah, like I could have died, up there, so yeah, I
almost died Cause.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
It feels like that.
You feel like, oh my gosh, I'mnever going to recover from this
.
This is this, is it?
Which, again, is also like sortof assigning that importance to
you know, to things, and Ithink that I think that probably
we'll get into, like you know,when we get into our next
episode.
But the you know, assigningimportance to things, I think
(43:28):
has a huge tie to whether or notit's pleasurable or not.
Because, like, as an example,when you play video games, are
you like, oh my gosh, if I don'twin this, if I don't beat the
game, or if I don't beat thisperson, I'm playing against.
Or if I don't, whatever, it'sgoing to be miserable, I'm going
to, it's going to be horrible.
It's like, no, you haven'tassigned that importance to that
, you've just you're, you'regetting pleasure out of playing
(43:50):
the game itself and you want towin.
You want to, but you're gettingthe pleasure out of playing,
not necessarily winning, or atleast you're maybe.
You're getting the pleasure outof trying to win, let me, let
me put it that way, so or tryingto accomplish whatever goal,
because it's not necessarilywinning in a video game, but the
.
I guess my point is, if youdon't assign that importance to
(44:13):
that, then there's a higherlevel of you getting pleasure
from that.
So I think that's why we why wehave learned in Toastmasters and
in these other things that wewant to do is you get really
nervous when you think, oh mygosh, this, I, what happens if I
fail on this speech?
Oh my gosh, this is going to beterrible, I'm going to be
embarrassed, and all the youtalk about all the bad things
(44:35):
are going to happen.
Or and when you don't assignthat.
So as you go on longer andlonger, you're like yeah, I'll
give a speech and you don'tassign a huge level of
importance to that speech.
Like you, you know that if yougive that speech and you do
something wrong, or you misspeak, or you use bad grammar or you
use Oz and ums that you're notgoing to die, like you're not
(44:55):
going to die.
You know nothing bad is goingto happen to you, right, and so
then you can allow that pleasureto come in where you're like oh
, okay, well, now I'm just uphere riffing, I'm up here having
fun, I'm up here doingsomething that's not going to
nothing.
Bad is going to happen to meRight.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
But.
But I felt so I thought you weregoing to go a different way,
and uh uh bring it up importancebecause I think the more like
them I thought you were going tosay that the more importance we
give us something you know, themore pleasure we get from it.
But I think, like talking a bitabout that from the perspective
(45:37):
of you know, when giving yourfirst speech at a venue, whether
it's a Toastmasters' Club or anopen mic, is going to be the
most terrifying right.
It's new, it's the first time,so it has a sense of importance.
But after the 76th time it doeshave less sense of importance.
(45:57):
But I think that alsodiminishes the satisfaction you
get out of it.
Perhaps the less effort you'llput into it and therefore the
less satisfaction you'll get outof it.
Right that I think that quoteunquote the heedless who are
enlightened realize that moreeffort means more satisfaction.
(46:19):
You know I don't feel proud ofwhat I do unless I do my best.
Speaker 4 (46:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
And I don't.
And it's hard to do your bestif you don't think something's
important.
Now I'll say that and I realizeyou know like if I just get up
and give a speech, that's not, Idon't think it's important that
I'm not going to put as muchpreparation into it.
Yeah.
You know, I don't know.
(46:50):
I think there's something therethat cuts both ways, and I know
we're way off our intentionhere.
No, no, we wanted to talk aboutthe opposite of hedonism.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
Right, Well, I just so on that note.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
You were holding onto something, no on that note,
just like I really think thatthat's the right.
What you just said is, I thinkthe danger in hedonism is, you
know, the you know, the more so,like assigning an importance to
something that creates a higherpleasure spectrum to it and
(47:26):
then that pleasure spectrumchanges.
As we've already said, likeyour definition of pleasure
changes over time and, like yousaid, less effort or repetitive
thing.
Hey, I have to give thispresentation every Friday for
the next two years.
Well, about a year in, you'relike, oh my gosh, I have to give
this presentation again.
Right, it's going to be boringand you're just like whatever
(47:46):
Right, and the danger inhedonism is that is that, I
think, is that you get to apoint where you're like now I
need something else, and that'sthat's when you go back to the
name.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
There's a word for that.
Speaker 2 (47:59):
There's a or a term, the hedonistic treadmill.
Okay, yeah, so, and I thinkwell, that's good.
I'm not the first person tothink of it, which?
Speaker 4 (48:09):
good because I'm not the smartest.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I'm not the smartest person in the world.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
It validates your thinking too.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
You know, and it is that idea, that you get
acclimated to something.
Yes.
Or, like in drugs, you developa tolerance.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
So you need, you need more, either in terms of
quality or quantity, to get thathit, to get that pleasure.
Yeah, so that, yeah so that.
That's the hedonistic treadmill.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yeah, but it also can as things you know as.
As usual, those things can beflipped on their head, meaning
you can get on a treadmilltowards good things or you can
get on a treadmill.
So I call this the downwardspiral versus upward spiral, and
my yeah my philosophy of thatis that you can use these things
(49:06):
.
That's why habits are important,because you can use a
repetitive thing that issomewhat seeking pleasure, that
is, and as you start to get morepleasure, you need to go to
that next level.
You've got that on an upwardyou know, downward cycle versus
an upward cycle, right, You're?
You're now, you're improvingevery time you're doing your.
Hey, I need to go to the nextthing.
Well, the next thing is animprovement, the next thing is
(49:28):
another improvement.
The next thing is so now you'reusing that to ladder up to
whatever goal you're trying todo, Whereas you know so.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
So like in the terms of drug abuse.
Instead of taking more drugs,flipping it and having an upward
cycle of okay, you gotacclimated to giving speeches
and toastmasters.
Speaker 4 (49:45):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
So you need to like start giving speeches to larger
audiences or or different venues, yeah, or you know, actually go
back to seminary and get your,you know, was it your degree in
theology or whatever Right.
So to become a preacher.
Whatever it is you want to do,like, go and go to the next
level, Right?
(50:06):
If you've gotten bored, go tothe next level, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yeah, so that's the interesting thing is that when
you have somebody who'santi-hedonism in my mind, I'm
like, well, you're just lookingat the negative, you're looking
at the downward cycle, you'relooking at the addictions, like
the, exactly what we said.
Everything else that has anegative connotation to it.
You know that in excess, youknow, is like you said, really
(50:31):
it's sex, drugs and rock androll, kind of that kind of thing
, exactly what you've alreadymentioned, and using that
obviously as a term loosely fornegative things.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
And though I like rock and roll and sex.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah, and you know well, I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
Asperin's great when you have headache.
Right, exactly.
Well, I guess I'm stuckwondering and maybe we, maybe we
save this for another time.
Like what the opposite ofhedonism is, because when we
first started talking about it,I thought it was workaholism.
Yeah.
You know, like all work and noplay right.
(51:10):
Yeah.
Assuming hedonism was a stand infor play, but I don't think
that's right.
And then my next guess wasgoing to be martyrdom.
Right, like where yeah but Iwonder, if it's, which one?
Is it where you love?
You love to feel pain.
I think that like Satan.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Oh, uh, yeah, oh wait , is it sadist?
Or a masochist, or you'remasochist, you're a masochist,
masochist, yeah, sadist.
Like to give pain.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Yeah, yeah.
So a masochist like with that,with masochism.
I mean yeah, I mean seekingpain saint or masochist.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Well, here's the thing the thing about it and,
like you said, we will talkabout it more in our next
episode.
But I feel like masochists atleast the people who I perceive
as masochists that I've met inmy life or and I don't mean that
in the sense of like physicalpain, but is that they're more
of an anti-hedonist than theyare a masochist they have some
(52:09):
side of, they have some corn ofsome sort of like philosophical
or spiritual issue againstpleasure seeking in any way.
So you shouldn't gain pleasure.
I mean in the Bible says youknow, the money is the root of
all evil, or the excuse me, thelove of money is the root of all
evil, is what it says.
And but there's all.
(52:32):
There's a lot of people whothink like, yeah, you should not
.
You shouldn't be doing thingsbecause you're getting something
out of it, you should be doingthings because they're the right
thing to be doing.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
That whole sacrificial love or right.
Yeah, I can't think of theother phrases that come up.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, but I think that that.
Speaker 4 (52:57):
I think you're right.
I think.
Speaker 2 (52:58):
I think in our next episode we can talk about the,
that you know, the workaholismand the opposite of that as well
as, potentially, you know somethings to.
You know, what is the solutionto this?
Like, I mean not solution,because there's no, really no
solution, but what is, what isthe sort of the end result?
Where should somebodypotentially strive to end up in
(53:20):
terms of, you know, hedonismversus workaholism, or and or
masochism, masochism as you say.
Speaker 1 (53:30):
So yeah, well, I'm eager for our next episode and
the opportunity to Google whatthe opposite of hedonism is.
Speaker 2 (53:40):
Right, exactly.
All right.
Come back for our next episodeof Googling with Brian and Nick.
All right, we'll, we'll, you'llhear us in the next episode,
all right.
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