October 19, 2023 • 56 mins
Remember those long road trips packed with a variety of butterscotch flavored snacks, or the unforgettable thrill of a Red Hot Chili Peppers concert? We do. And we’re taking you along for a trip down memory lane as we discuss the subtle philosophy inherent in these experiences. In our latest podcast, we journey through the complexities of Stoicism and Hedonism, drawing surprising connections with Eddie Murphy's standup, and addressing a listener's poignant question about love versus apathy.
Pleasure-seeking often gets a bad rap, but it doesn't have to be that way. We argue for finding a harmonious balance, where the pursuit of joy intertwines with life’s other necessities. We also tackle the concept of finding playfulness in the seriousness of work, something that has often helped us maintain a balanced perspective during stressful times. Whether it's embracing the 'free spirit' mentality or challenging the norms of homeowners associations, we probe the spectrum of life and the quest for equilibrium.
Lastly, we delve into the transformative power of play and gamification, a subject close to our hearts. We believe play can boost creativity, stimulate the mind, and even heal emotional wounds. Explore how the famous Mary Poppins adage, “A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down,” applies to life's challenges and the pursuit of happiness. And, of course, we couldn’t end the episode without discussing the importance of sleep - the ultimate pleasure! Join us as we blend humor, philosophy, and the pursuit of a well-balanced life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Help Yourself.
Food and Philosophy with Brianand Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Nick and I'm Brian.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I like pleasure spiked with pain.
And music is my aeroplane.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Which eating, brian, I do love it, I do love it.
You know, I saw Red Hot ChiliVampers in concert, like
recently, yeah, yeah, so yeah,that's, they're one of my.
I mean they're a SoCal band, soyou know they're pretty SoCal
South California, right, yeah,south, yeah, south California.
That's what we call it whenwe're.
If you're, I can tell you're anative from South California,
(00:36):
because that's what everyonecalls it.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It's like for all of our non-native SoCal speakers, I
wanted them to know.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Do you live in North California or Middle California
or South California or SoCal,socal, anyway, yeah, I did see
them in concert recently andironically not to take us too
far off from the whatcha eatin',but I did see them here in
Nashville and I took my kids tothe concert because my kids are
(01:11):
old enough now that they can seesuch things and they
experienced.
Experienced a few things, Ithink for the first time, but
like wafting clouds of marijuana, smoke.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Contact tie Right and actually it was a lot.
Anyway, Unexplicable hunger,yeah, no, the funny thing was
they were like what does thatsmell?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Can't you smell that smell Dad.
Yeah yeah, but you know thesmell that's around you Like,
don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, so no, we went there.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
But I realized that when I was, when we walked in
and we got to our seats, Irealized that it was almost
exactly 30 years to the day thatwhen the first time I saw the
Red Hot Chili Pepper.
So I was like it was very, verysurreal for me because I was
sitting there with my kids andthen I did the calculation.
(02:06):
I'm like, okay, this was 2022.
I saw them in 2000, excuse me,in 1992, for the first time in
concert.
And so 30 years later I'm therewith my kids, which I thought
was anyway.
It was very reflective, it wasreflective.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
For me it's sort of yeah, like kind of looking back.
Did you wonder or think toyourself at any point at the 92
concert?
It's like man, I hope I canbring my kids here one day.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, no, well, and I will say that I was about the
same age as my son when I sawthem for the first time.
I was slightly older, maybeabout a year, year and a half
older than he was when he sawthem for the first time.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So anyway, Rites of passage have changed a lot,
haven't they?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, so anyway, what am I eating?
Couple things.
I actually wanted to talk abouta subject, that on food.
That is sort of weird.
I went on a chaperone to bandcompetition.
Our high school marching banddoes competitions and during
(03:11):
those trips you're on a bus andyou're basically eating the same
thing that the kids are eatingand we give them these snack
bags, and so the whole dayyesterday I was just eating like
just the worst, like justbasically like snack food the
whole day.
Like I've ever had a day whereyou just eat snacks the whole
day and they're not the andsnacks are never the greatest,
(03:32):
they're always snacks are justsort of snacks.
It's like, eh, like this thingin the middle and I know there's
going to be people out thereand be like you can make healthy
snacks, it's fine, you can eata carrot or something you know,
and um but carrots, all aboutcarrots.
So, anyway, this is not the typeof snacks that we provide to
(03:55):
the kids because they likebecause, they like the junk food
.
So so yesterday I had four poptarts and I had like three
granola bars and I had like acake I'm trying to remember what
else.
I had a little package of twoOreos I had uh oh, we did have
(04:16):
Subway for lunch, so I had that,but I had probably had three
bags of chips and a Subway halfof a Subway sandwich, like a six
, six inch Subway sandwich, andwhat?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
else.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That's about it, I think for eight Funyuns for the
first time in a long time.
So that's, that was fun.
Get it Funyuns, yeah, but itwas just it was.
It was one of those likethrowaway days where it's like
you're, you know when you like,you know when you go to like a
conference or something, andit's like you you're on a set
schedule and you're like you'reeverybody's got to eat at the
same time because you have thesebreaks and you have this, and
(04:51):
you got to be here at that timeand it was like that.
You're just sort of trapped andI did.
I should have probablypre-planned a little bit better
and brought my own snacks, but Idid not, and so I'm recovering
from a junk food hangover today.
So so you know what they sayabout hangovers, right, they say
(05:12):
a little, you know, have alittle bit of hair of the dog.
You know, usually you got tohave have a little bit of a
little bit of junk food in orderto cure the junk food hangover.
So I'm drinking this gettinginto Brian's beverage corner,
I'm drinking this magic cauldronexcuse me, flying cauldron
special edition butterscotchbeer that's like basically Harry
(05:33):
Potter-ish.
I had one of these a littlewhile ago.
So the same company made a rootbeer that I had a few episodes
ago and so, but it's loaded withsugar and I will say it tastes
really good but it's a lot ofsugar, so I would need a lot of
sugar to tolerate butterscotch.
Oh, you don't like that flavorat all.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh, not at all.
It's like I think it's the partof candy corn I hate, or
something about it reminds me ofcandy corn.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I could see that.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah Well, butterscotch yeah, and other
things like.
It's just just I don't knowwhat it is about it.
I don't taste it long enough toknow why I ate it.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Right, right, You're like just immediately.
Yeah, that's like my.
My father hated peanut butter,just couldn't stand peanut
butter, and so so when they cameout with peanut butter M&M oh,
excuse me, not, it wasn't peanutbutter M&M's.
This is a long time ago.
He, he took a handful ofReese's Pieces and thought they
were M&M's and he put them inhis mouth and he was like just
(06:42):
no, no peanut butter for me.
So anyway, yeah, that's about it.
So, so I have that.
So I'm drinking this flyingcauldron.
I'm going to be on a sugar highwhile we're talking.
Sort of appropriate.
It's a little bit hedonistic ofme in order to to be drinking
this much sugar and go into thismuch junk food, right, and then
(07:03):
I've got my offset here, thoughjust the plain Jane water
bottle with my rectangular strawthat I am, I'm going to be
drinking out of.
So that is what I'm eatingtoday.
Or at least that's my food talkfor today.
I'll see you in the next video,or what's your food dog?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I too well, I guess.
Following on the theme ofsnacks, I'm snacking.
Dory likes to keep me amplysupplied with food in my office
and I often forget about it, soI'm kind of trying to like cycle
my stock.
Yeah and binging on snacks as a.
For instance, I have Twounopened packages.
(07:43):
I'm finished hit the open but Istill have two unopened
packages of these Chicken snackyeah.
I think in previous episodesI've referred to them as meat
sticks.
Yes and I've shared.
I've shared these with you, youknow.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I had one of those.
They're really good.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
But yeah, it's like 50 or 60 calories per stick.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I Don't know if there's other flavors or not,
but the flavors the two flavorsthat Dory always gets me are the
original, and that's sea, saltand pepper.
Uh-huh you can tell thedifference, especially between
it and the other flavor, whichis honey and jalapeno.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yes, I think I had the honey jalapeno one.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, that's the one that's 60 calories.
I guess that's the honey.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, a little bit of sugar.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
That's the difference .
How he makes, yeah, but it's,you know, pseudo, pseudo healthy
, right.
There's no hormones added.
That For the chickens that wereraised soy free, gluten free.
They never use antibiotics.
Yeah of course that begs thequestion what do they use
instead?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
right.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It's kind of like sugar free, yeah, but this is
really sweet.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah so what are you doing here?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
anyway, yeah, yeah because if it's gonna be really
sweet, I would rather just havesugar, please.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's good though for a few generations of
Digesting sugar so and, if Iremember correctly, that's
Because I like I like to havethings like that or, like you
know, low carb kind of meat,kind of things like that.
But I Also don't you get tiredof eating beef jerky.
So if, like, if you have likedried beef that knows ones I
remember are like more of anactual meat stick, like they're.
(09:22):
They're moist, that's.
I know nobody wants to hear mesay moist.
Mmm we used to meet Flavor gosh.
Our audience is cringing rightnow.
Just stop it, just stop.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Well, you know that.
That's why.
That's why the bagel and thethe cake are separated.
The bagel is needy and the cakewasn't moist enough.
Right, I wrote that joke.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
With the help of my mom too.
Needy get it, can't canady getit.
Well, so.
Yeah well.
So I know I was gonna say Ihave some Something similar to
that, those meat sticks, but Igot.
I got them at Costco andthey're they're really good
(10:12):
they're, they're refrigerated.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So they're well.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So the cool thing is like they're.
They're refrigerated, sothey're fresh, they're more for,
they're not like a product thatsits on the shelf, that has a
lot of shelf life.
You have to keep themrefrigerated.
And then it says you'resupposed to eat them within a
week of opening them and they'relong, like probably I Would say
12 to 14 inch long Meat sticks.
So they're like really long,but the issue with them is that
(10:38):
they're so they they're, they'rereally good, but the issue is
that they're 220 calories perper one.
So it's, they give the servingsize and a half, which is 110
calories for half of it, and Hmm, so 220 calories, that's all.
(11:01):
Like that's a big snack, that'sMm-hmm the court, compared to
what you're talking about 60calories.
You can eat that and you'relike, yeah, this really is a
snack.
I get a little bit of protein,I get something in my system,
but I'm not like.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
120 is 10% of your daily intake, right?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
You're just doing the yeah, that's right, yeah, and
that's all that's.
That's a lot.
That's a lot to give up ifyou're.
You know, I Don't, for ifyou're anything, I mean that's a
lot of calories.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So especially when you're drinking butterscotch
beer, which is probably 800calories, 210, 210 calories.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's good.
I say yeah, brian, don't eatthe meat stick because you might
want to still drink yourbutterscotch beer.
Make good choices.
Make good choices.
Remember what's important toyou.
Little callback right, thehedonistic treadmill.
(11:56):
You know, I hear thathedonistic treadmill has a cup
holder on it.
I usually put butterscotch beerin it.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh, Whenever I'm binging on my deepest, darkest
desires are like a nice coldglass butterscotch beer.
Oh.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Man.
Okay, well, so let's get intoour.
So let's segue into our subject.
Oh, you didn't tell us aboutdrinks.
Do you have any beverages thatyou're sipping on?
No, I'm out.
You're out, dude.
Yeah, someone once told me themost important part of public
speaking is hydration.
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I'm gonna sweat.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
You're gonna get.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Halfway through this episode you're gonna be like my
mouth is so dry.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Let me hear, you're gonna Macky mouth right right me
following.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
So let's slowly segue into our subject.
Last episode we talked abouthedonism and that philosophy and
how that was the seeking ofpleasure and how that plays into
what you do in life, how itaffects good things and bad
things and is it wrong or is itright and things like that.
(13:17):
But I think in this episode wewanted to shift a little bit to
that.
The opposite of hedonism, whichwould be Would you call it and
he'd, and hedonism when it was acall.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I'm still on the fence.
I'm hoping we can figure it outtogether.
Okay, I've come across Threethings.
That might be it, or maybe it'ssome weird combination.
When you're referring to itwould be and hedonia and hedonia
, that's right.
And that's where someone can'tget pleasure.
They can't get no satisfaction.
They try and they try.
(13:51):
I'm just full of the lyricstoday I guess it's, it's.
It's my favorite kind of cliche.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Like a rolling stone.
Gathers no moss.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay, I see, stop, I had.
I thought two things and I hadto stop myself.
All right, which, which is theanother possible, would be a
sulfur strain.
The opposite of hedonism issulfur strain.
Uh-huh another would bemartyrdom slash.
Yeah, I see her right and wesort of hinted at another one at
(14:29):
the end of our episode of Likemasochism or sadism or say
that's like actually seekinganother another kind of pain
seeker.
Yeah yeah.
But is.
I don't know, maybe, maybethat's a little bit of nihilism
to where it's like, yeah, butnow that I just thought about
this, though, isn't?
It isn't a massacist?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
But isn't.
Isn't a masochist?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
somebody who.
No, but like isn't a masochist,somebody who Derives pleasure
from the pain that they'reseeking?
So then, how does that makethem?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
They're basically just another kind of hedonist,
right?
They're just yeah, well, that'skind of.
The thing is like which.
Which part of the definition ofa hedonist do you want to latch
on to?
I Mean the purse, the seekseeking pleasure.
Okay, well, they could seeright the opposite of pleasure
right or they.
(15:20):
It's Feeling pleasure okay.
Well if you can't feel pleasure, let's say on Hedonia right.
I guess it would be.
I don't know if there's a wordfor it, but it'd be somebody who
can't feel pleasure and wantsand seeks to ruin everyone
else's fun.
Well, and I think, I thinkwhich is something like that
(15:41):
fundamentalist person youimplicitly reference, the one
who's like trying to ruineveryone's fun.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Well, and I and hedonists who can't feel the-.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I feel like the anhedonia thing is like you've
described.
That or at least the definitionthat you pulled up, was like
the inability to feel pleasure,you know like the inability to
have those things, so like Ifeel like that technically is
the opposite, but I feel likemore like your what you said was
a martyr, a martyr-y type ofmartyrs kind of mentality.
(16:13):
I feel like that's more closelyassociated to in my mind with
somebody who's the opposite of ahedonist is that they're trying
to sort of show people like Idon't need pleasure, or you
shouldn't need pleasure either,in order to do anything.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
So kind of the self-restraint.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, self-restraint exactly Interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Okay, one thing that comes to mind there, like
exercising self-restraint ordeliberately choosing not to go
for the pleasure, reminds me ofa practice sometimes recommended
by Stoics where it's like oh.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I like Stoics.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Hey, yeah, you're living things are good right now
.
That's good, that's cool.
Live on nothing but bread for aweek just to remind yourself of
what that's like or what howyou could survive even in quote
boring or spartan circumstances.
But then it also magnifies yourpleasure after the fact, right,
(17:25):
Like you appreciate food somuch more when you're back to
variety and back to quality andso forth, as Eddie.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Murphy would say if you eat saltines all the time,
or if you're starving thensomebody hands you a saltine,
then you're like man, this isthe best saltine I've ever
tasted, right, yeah, if youremember that, you might be too
young to remember that joke.
Did you ever see that?
That was a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Was that when he did his purple outfit routine?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, Eddie Murphy raw.
Yeah, it was like the it waslike a it was very, very-.
It was very what's the word I'mlooking for that.
It was very monumental, or, youknow, fresh, because basically
he did a standup routine Beforewe had Netflix specials.
(18:11):
He did a standup routine andhad a movie about it.
I think I talked about this onthe podcast before, which is
probably everything, but he hada movie about it and people went
to the movie theater to watchhis one hour thing, which nobody
would do now because they'reall on Netflix, right.
But on that note though, I justlooked up I was looking up
Stoicism because I wanted to seethe virtue or not the virtues,
but the four you know there'sfour pillars of Stoicism, or
(18:34):
something like that.
I wanted to look up those, butone of the first articles that
came up was Stoicism versushedonism, and this is-.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Well, that's probably the AI, knowing what you've
searched before.
No, it's from a place.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
It's from a website, so it's not because Google now
has AI results, that pops up, Iknow, and it's remembering your
previous searches to figure.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Hey, you might be interested in the difference
between-.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
No, what I'm saying is Anyway, what does it?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
say what is the article?
Just ignore me for that onemoment and understand so when
comparing-.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
So most important distinction is based on the idea
of pleasure.
In Stoicism, pleasure isperceived as neither good nor
bad, but rather something toview indifferently, and hedonism
once focuses largely set on thepursuit of pleasure.
So it's basically it's thething that I said before, which
is we were talking about in thelast episode.
Like is it where's the line?
The right or the wrong, thegood or the bad?
(19:28):
Is this good or is this bad?
Is this right or is this wrong?
Like where's that black andwhite line Right?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So the the pleasure is important to hedonists.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Pleasure is not important to Stoics.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, it's you view it indifferently.
So it's.
You know, pleasure is perceivedas neither good nor bad,
meaning, hey, if you're going toif you're going to go seek out
pleasure, fine, there's not likeI don't say there's nothing
wrong with that, but that's notneither good nor bad.
We're not going to place avalue on that.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, that takes me back to a bit of fan mail.
We had way back after ourepisode on what Is Love, where
you know you and I were like allthe opposite of love is hate.
Duh.
But, when they chimed in andsaid that they'd heard.
It said that the opposite oflove is apathy or indifference.
Right is is no, I?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
think we said it's not-.
Yeah, I made the assertion thatthe opposite of love was not
hate, it was fear.
Oh, wait, okay.
That person that person said-they sent an email that said
that actually, no, they hadheard that it was indifference,
that it was you know, that itwas something that it was, you
(20:39):
know.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
But they actually sort of said, yeah, your
definition sort of makes alittle bit of sense, so anyway,
Well, I like I like thedistinction, because I think
it's kind of like what we'retalking about here, where, in
its own way, neutrality is is anextreme.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah Well not to take us too far off.
But, like the-, the, you knowthe virtues.
The stoic virtues are wisdom,justice, courage and moderation,
and I think moderation is theone that really gets into the
hedonistic stuff.
Where we're talking about islike where I think we talked
about in the last episode, whichis, yeah, you know, anything
(21:21):
not in moderation is probablynot good, like if you're you
know, if you're seeking pleasureall the time and it's getting
out of control, then you know,and one of the virtues of stoic,
the stoic belief is, orstoicism, is that, moderation of
, yeah, seek pleasure, but do itin moderation, I would think.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Well, in the definition of seeking pleasure,
it at least the one that I sawwas that it's also avoiding pain
, right?
It's not just Right.
And in an end, at the risk ofrepeating myself in its own way,
I think there comes a pointwhere seeking pleasure becomes
(22:02):
pain, painful, right, becausethrough overexposure, it's just
not as fun anymore.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Right, you kind of come back to hedonic treadmill.
Yeah, um.
So so what do you do Like?
Do you run faster on thetreadmill and start doing damage
to yourself?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Right.
To take the metaphor, maybe twoliterally.
Or do you get off the treadmillRight and Right?
Avoid the pain of boredom,avoid the pain of you know your
damage from having excess, andseek that equilibrium, seek that
balance and get pleasureelsewhere, like, perhaps by
(22:41):
resting, like, because taking abreak from something you've been
doing too much of yeah, Offerspleasure, right?
Yes, and is avoiding pain oftoo much of a good thing.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So I think how to say I think hedonists get a bad rap
.
Maybe I'm too much of ahedonist, but I think that
there's what people who havelatched onto the philosophy
that's like appropriate have ahard time explaining.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
And do wants of it.
You know like what they mean.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And then there's like what everyone hears when
they're using these words in theways that they do, and it's
like, oh, you're just an addict,you're addicted to everything
you want-.
Right you only want to feelgood, Um it's like people, be
damned, yeah, and I don'tunderstand.
I never understood that,because I get pleasure out of
being a good person, right, butI'm saying who doesn't want to
(23:42):
feel good?
I don't feel good when I thinkI'm feeling good.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Like who doesn't want to feel good?
Like yeah, to me that's alwayslike all you want to do is seek
pleasure.
You're like yeah, why would younot?
I don't understand what's thealternative?
Seeking pain, right, exactly,or avoiding pleasure?
I guess you could say avoidingpleasure, but that's what we're
sort of talking about.
Is the people like?
(24:04):
Basically, some people are likeno, I don't want, I'm going to
refuse doing that because it'stoo much pleasure, it gives me
pleasure.
Yeah, it's.
You know what I mean, so-.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, and again I think that like seeking pleasure
without any self-discipline.
Right now we're talking aboutmoderation um is misguided and
is a path towards disastersmaller.
Otherwise.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, and it's I like even that stoic it takes us
back to sto yeah, it takes us tosto yeah, I was going to say
even that sto stoicism you knowthat stoic belief of the
indifference to me is a hardthing, because you feel like you
should feel something abouteverything, like you shouldn't
(24:53):
be, like you shouldn't be.
And I'm not saying an opinionabout everything, I'm saying
like to just say like, eh,whatever, like I don't know, I
mean, was it pleasurable?
I guess I mean, but it was alsonot sort of not pleasurable.
So, oh well, and here's what Ifeel like with regard to and
(25:16):
maybe this is jumping too farahead, like in what we wanted to
talk about, but, like you know,I think at some point in this
episode we want to get into likesort of balance between
pleasure seeking and everythingelse, like where probably you
should be, is moderation right?
But I don't think it's.
I don't think that it has to bethat the thing that you're doing
(25:39):
that's pleasure seeking, youhave to like limit your pleasure
while you're doing that.
I think the balance is theoverall balance of everything.
So you can go do somethingthat's pure pleasure, like you
can go you know we've alreadymentioned video games like you
can go play video games andenjoy them.
While you're playing, the videogames you present in the moment
and you enjoy those and you getpurely pleasure out of them.
(25:59):
There's no other reason, orvery few other reasons, or maybe
that's the main reason thatyou're going to play them right,
but then after that You'regoing to be going.
How dare you, how dare you makesuch assumptions?
I mean, I feel like the youknow having that time where you
(26:20):
have that exactly what you justsaid.
Hey, also like I went to bed atthree o'clock in the morning
last night.
It was very pleasurable tosleep last night.
Like I was dead tired by thetime I crawled into bed, right?
So the fact is that, should Inot seek?
Should I not say, oh, that's,that was really great, I really
(26:42):
enjoyed that sleep, like I'mgoing to do this because it's
going to feel good to sleep.
I don't think that's, I don'tthink that's true.
I you know.
To deny that, I think isstrange.
I don't understand if you'relike well, I'll sleep, but I'm
not going to gain any pleasureout of it.
You know, whatever you know.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
What is wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So well and so on.
That I guess sort of on thatnote is, you know, talking about
sort of the balance of, youknow, between the too serious
person versus the person that'smaybe too hedonistic or too, I
don't know.
Like the way that I which waygood.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, I mean, and well, let me say, maybe this
translates a little bit betteris that I feel like you could
translate sort of pleasure intoyou know, I don't know.
I guess we talked about likeassigning an importance on
things, like some people arelike everything is important, so
(27:51):
you have to be serious about it, like you have to be, you know,
and to me seriousness is like asource of or not a source of,
but an indication that you'renot gaining pleasure, like if
you're just like yes, I'mintently going about my business
and I'm doing this and I'mright, versus the other side of
that, which is we're not goingto assign an importance on
(28:14):
anything.
So, talking about nihilism,like you mentioned nihilism
earlier, which is that belief ofyou know nothing matters.
So why do you, you know, whyeven care?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And that's a little bit extreme.
Like nihilism is extreme, butthere's also the just, you know,
like I said, before it'sgetting close to Anne Houdonni,
I think.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Like it's very impressive sort of mentality.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Right and not that far, but like the, the, so what?
Or the O well, kind of like youknow it's kind of like an E or
type.
Yeah, but it can also have itsbenefits though, because, you
know, ultimately I think thatthere's a lot of displeasure
(28:58):
that can come out of assigningtoo much importance or a high
level of importance to things orI don't want to say importance,
that's probably the wrong word,but like building it up in your
own brain.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, in our what's it called?
We have cliches for thisconcept, right, like in our
native language, like he'smaking a mountain out of a
molehill.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, it's to make to be even more.
I guess others might say makingsomething out of nothing, but I
think that's even worse.
Right, like a molehill issomething.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
It's just.
It's not a mountain.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
You're over stating it, you're over feeling it,
you're over.
Yeah, you're making it moreimportant than it is.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Making it bigger than it is.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Well, and I think I also think the perception to you
like, as an example, neitheryou or I want to be fired by our
clients and or our employer,and you know so we are.
You assign a certain level ofimportance to the work that you
do for your business, forwhatever career you're in right
(30:06):
To ensure that, yeah, you'reoverall great success and so.
So there's a certain level ofimportance, so there's also a
certain level of seriousnessthat you bring to it.
You know is that oh, this isimportant.
This is a thing that I need tobe serious about because I could
you know I could be fired.
(30:28):
But I will say that you knowmany people who I've met that
you know sort of blur that linein their professional life where
they're like no, I bring aplayful attitude to the things
that I think, even the things Ithink are important.
You, you know you sort of have,you're bringing that pleasure
into that, you know, you knowinto that arena and you're
(30:50):
blurring the line between thosetwo things.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So that's what I'm do .
I'm one of my little personalmantras of sorts, or things I
have to remind myself of.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I am a fun loving professional.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
That's one of my you know identity statements.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yes, well, and I was thinking of the spoonful of
sugar kind of belief.
You know where We've talkedabout this before.
No, we've talked about thisbefore and actually I remember
somebody gave a speech it wasn'tyou, actually, it was somebody
in our Toastmasters Club thatgave a speech about maybe it was
you, I don't know.
It was it you pair a thing thatyou want to do, or a thing that
(31:27):
you are trying to do withsomething that is so like.
For instance, in your case, youmight say, hey, I would like to
exercise, but I also want toplay video games.
Okay, I'm going to get atreadmill, I'm going to walk on
the treadmill anytime.
I'm playing video games.
So you're going to, you know,you're going to stand up and
you're going to be on thetreadmill.
So you're like, I'm getting myexercise but I'm also getting
the other thing, and you'repairing those two things with
each other, which I think ispleasure seeking for a benefit,
(31:54):
right.
Pleasure seeking to getsomething done that you perceive
is not pleasurable maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
No, it's self-discipline and seeking
pleasure right.
It's finding a balance.
Ha ha, ha, ha, ha ha.
And I don't in terms of likewho said that.
I don't remember exactly.
I remember hearing that conceptin atomic habits, though.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
So, yeah, there's or it doesn't.
It could be stacking like,pairing them, like that where
they're co Located, so to speakright walking while gaming.
Yes it could also be pairinglike chronologically.
So it's like okay, if, um, if Iwalk on the treadmill for 30
minutes, then I can.
(32:48):
That's when I can play gamesright for the evening.
Right, yeah, it's like I it'sBefore this, after this sort of
thing right.
So you take it like an existinghabit and you add something to
either the front of it or theend.
Yeah.
I mean that's basically.
Yeah, like I got to be takingmy allergy medicine right
(33:09):
reliably every day in themorning because I'd say okay
every time.
You know I had to have it abrush in my teeth.
Yeah hopefully everyone does.
Um, but it's like, okay, when Igo to brush my teeth in the
morning, I'm gonna first take myallergy medicine.
Yeah, mm-hmm you know, and thenit just Basically became a
(33:31):
habit, cuz I Tagged it with no,anyway, that was.
That was a bit of a tangent, no, no, not at all, I think.
But but finding that balance,you can co locate, you can stack
or, like you said, put thething you want to do with the
thing you know you need to dotogether right, yes, yeah yeah,
I think good tactic.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I feel like, well, and I'll say this, like there
are certain people who At firstI was thinking, like people that
you, I've worked with in thepast that I feel like they don't
take anything seriously.
So, like you're saying, you'rea fun-loving professional, right
, so take the professional offof that.
And I've worked with peoplethat they're professionals by
(34:11):
their nature but it's likethey're just doing, they're just
not taking anything seriouslyever, right and and I.
But at the same time I realizethat you know that there's a
certain, I don't know, there's acertain amount of, I guess, as
long as work is getting done andother Things are happening,
(34:33):
then I feel like there's not ahuge problem with it.
But at the same time, well, andhere's, I guess, is what I'm
trying to get at the the problemthat I've had with it in the
past is because I've assigned aDifferent level of importance to
things than that person isassigning and there that person
is.
Yeah, go ahead.
No, so that person is Sayinglike they're playing this like a
(34:57):
game, you know.
They're basically like, yeah,this is all I mean, I'm just
gonna come in every day, I'mgonna have a good time.
There's no sense in me beingnegative and or serious all the
time for this, because it's allsort of a game, right, and
that's something that I need tolearn more of, because I think I
(35:19):
tend to.
When I get into something likethat, I tend to.
I tend to lean on the negativeof, like the high level of
importance of things and thenget stressed about it, and the
people that I've known that dothat.
They don't get stressed aboutthings very much, you know.
At least they do seeminglydon't get stressed about things
very much.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, it's like what are you?
What are you joking around?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
for this is serious right, yeah and that's because
my, because I'm, I'm assigningthat you know right or at least
I'm attributing them acting thatway as them not assigning a
high level of importance to it,and I believe that those people
would not say that.
They would say no, I I thinkthis is important, absolutely
sure, but I also don't thinkthat I need to act in that way
(36:05):
all the time.
I'm gonna treat this, I'm gonnabe lighthearted about these.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah I.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Think that's kind of its own spectrum.
Right is like some people are,like any kidding at all is not
taking something seriously.
Yes then there's other peoplewho you know, I don't know.
Like I said, I'm a fun-lovingprofessional, but as a manager,
there's times where I have toTell my team to focus up.
Right, it's okay, we've.
(36:33):
You know, we spent the first 12minutes of this 30 minute
meeting kidding around.
Let's, let's get started on onwhat we're doing, right?
Yes, it was cool to joke around.
Maybe when went a little toolong, let's let's do our thing,
because we're probably not gonnahave time to finish, or let's
see if we have time to finish,because, yeah, there's
(36:53):
moderation, right, you want?
Right, you want to have yourfun and get things done at the
same time.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Hey, that's a good right.
Have your fun, get things done.
That should be another thing.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah, things are fun when they're getting done.
Ah, I've said Wow okay.
I suppose I was caughtthemselves.
That's another thing I've said.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
No, so well, and I think that I think there's a
certain level of so like.
An example is I was recently inChattanooga, tennessee, and
somebody was telling me aboutthis place that is, I Think.
They said it's like a sandwichshop and basically they make
(37:39):
these really really goodsandwiches, okay, but they also
said you need to go therebecause it has.
First of all, they said, if yougo inside, it's like you walk
in and it's like sort of likelike the Hobbit, it's like all
that whole inside is superawesome, like plants growing
everywhere and just like freespirit painting and you know,
like stuff like that.
(37:59):
I think Dory would like and soso it's this place, but she also
said that, that they have afarm.
So then the next thing that shesaid is, yeah, it's sort of run
by a cult.
And I was like, wait, what,excuse me?
And she said you have a commune.
These guys, they started athing and they have a farm and
(38:22):
they grow things on the farm andthey opened up that sandwich
shop and all the money from thatmade it that sandwich shop goes
into the pot and all the peoplelive on the farmland, they all.
It's all in a commune.
It's like a community.
I mean commune and.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Unism, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So they, they, and, and so that was the first one
that they opened in Chattanooga,tennessee, and now they're all
over the world, they're all.
There's one and there's anotherone in Tennessee, a different
city in Tennessee, and thenthere's, they're all over, like
internationally.
I guess what she said, but it'sthe same thing, they're all run
by the same.
It's called the yellow,something I don't know.
(39:03):
I should have probably lookedit up, so they.
Yeah, I'm looking it up.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
What are you gonna do , like hippie, not not to be
derogatory?
I'm interested because theyellow.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's called the yellow deli.
It's called the yellow deli inChattanooga and.
When you pull that up, there'sa lot of other things that come
up that are Christian counseling, yellow deli and tattens.
So it has all these things thatthe 12 tribes, 12 tribes org.
So, like Christians, are tryingto counsel them out of it's
(39:44):
basically it is a yeah, and itis a Like she said it was a cult
, but she's like it's that.
She said they're not like doinganything bad per se, they're
just you know you know, peopleget together and live on the
same property.
That Exactly, yeah, exactly,it's just the only difference is
(40:05):
they put all the money into onepot and everyone uses the money
.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So yeah, it's with the homeowners association.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Right, exactly, so.
So anyway, apparently there arethese around different places,
but the thing that I was tryingto get at with that is that's
the you know, the free spiritkind of mentality of like, yeah,
it's cool, like everything, youknow, everything can,
(40:32):
everything's fine, everything'sgonna.
And I don't know how I'm linkingthis with, like, pleasure
seeking, but I just feel likethat's a, I'm not taking
anything seriously, it's justhey, it's all taken care of.
We're just gonna throw all themoney into the same pot and
we're gonna live off of this andI'm not just I'm not saying
that's a wrong thing, like I'mnot saying I disagree with it,
but what I'm saying is, on theother side of that is the super
(40:54):
serious and very important, likeyou know, is that everything I
talk about is serious and youknow, I feel like that kind of
thing is a free Spear.
I call it the free spirit, likeyou said, hippie-dippy, you
know for for a relativelyderogatory term, but you know I
don't have a negativeconnotation for hippie and I
(41:15):
forget that others do, so I yeah, I mean, and I don't think I
don't think there's any hippiesthat listen Like it because it
rhymes yeah, I don't anythingderogatory.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, in fact you could say that I'm in love with
hippie she.
I think she self describes as ahippie.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I would say she's got hip, she's hippie ish and she's
got hippie tendencies.
She's hip, yeah, hippish, ohwell, and so, like getting back
to that, as like the balancebetween the two, we always
thought you always tend to talkabout the extremes, right, you
always tend to talk about theperson that's we talked about in
the last episode, like, oh,that person that's addicted,
(41:53):
this, or the person that theseare like, the people in the
middle are just, it's just likehey.
Yeah, I pleasure see sometimes,and sometimes I'm serious and
sometimes I'm pleasure-seek andsometimes I'm serious and in my
line of work I'm I'm alwaysadjusting to.
I Guess this is a gooddistinction and it goes back to
my personality type, which isI'm adjusting my Seriousness and
(42:16):
level of importance tosomething based on what the
clients seriousness and level ofimportance is.
So I've had clients who areMatch yeah they always want to
joke around.
They're joking around the entiretime and they're there, they're
not.
You know they're.
We're getting the job done, butthey're not.
You know.
This is a very serious,important thing, and I've had
(42:37):
other people that are like verystern and very just yes, we need
to figure this out and there'sno joking about this and and and
.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
A lot goes like.
Like, you and I are bothpeacekeepers.
You know, according to anyGraham.
Yeah we're different in thatwhen I match people, I match to
their opposite right, becauseI'm I'm trying to Keep everyone
balanced, everyone represented.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, so I got something super serious.
You try to crack a joke alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, I mean I'm not going to like try to, you know,
convert them, but I'll want totake it down a notch, you know.
Or Alternatively, if, like Isaid in that say, in the case
with my team, we're 12 minutesinto a 30 minute meeting, I'm
gonna be like okay, joke, youknow, I'm genuinely glad we had
some fun.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
I don't need to run a tight ship, but now it is time
for us to you know.
Go through her agenda, you knowthere's things we need to
accomplish.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
We've got some things we gotta get done, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's time to be a littleserious.
Let's, let's take it a coupleof notches towards serious.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
So, I think we do that on our podcast is we talk
for a little while about seriousand then I make some stupid
comment, you know, and then yeah, and I drive the conversation
back to seriousness, or or, or,or.
I I'll take us on, a change itand you'll bring me back yeah
right, exactly, yeah Well, andso I Guess where I'm with the
(44:05):
thing I was gonna.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well, I think maybe some other tactics on pursuing
balance.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Understanding that all this is a spectrum.
Right, like you might, justbriefly on spectrums, you might
call something red, but reallyred is its own range within
itself.
Right, there's plenty of shadesof red.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And the difference between red and orange can get
kind of blurry when you're youknow like it gets hard to tell.
Yeah, I think All of this stuffis on a kind of spectrum and
it's up to you, the listener, todecide whether you're in a
hedonistic place, whether you'rein an anahedonic kind of place,
(44:47):
whether you're in a Superserious place or whatever like.
Decide which direction you wantto lean and Counterbalance
towards equilibrium.
Yeah, like just just deciding,like, where you're at and how
far you want to move back.
That's like the first step.
You know, yeah, it's making achoice of just where you are and
(45:09):
then a second choice of whereyou want to be.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah um.
Like me.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I'm pretty content.
In my well, Pretty content Isay that and then I start
thinking about some of theconsequences of my video game
hedonia right now and I likeyeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I'm preaching to myself when I say I need to
decide for when, when a decisionneeds to be made, but then it's
like Decision of what are somethings you can do to
counterbalance.
Yeah, that's what we're kind ofgoing through together.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Well, this the the next place I was gonna go is
we'll hopefully go into yourvideo games a little bit,
because I pulled up a couplearticles about, you know, adult
play, so like, and that didn'tsound right.
Play for adults.
So why basically butter?
Why should you, you know?
Why should you be?
You know, why should you playgames?
(46:00):
Why should you Do things likelike they talk specifically.
They talk about board games,they talk about video games.
They talk about other thingslike why should you do these
things as an adult?
And so a couple differentarticles have some interesting
points.
This one talks about multiplebenefits of play.
(46:22):
So it says it helps.
The play helps by relievingstress and improving brain
function, stimulates the mindand it boosts creativity,
improves relationships andconnection with others, which is
opposite of what you said aminute ago, like your video game
thing, where it's like it makesyou not want to Can connect
with others.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, if the more dopamine you have in your system
circling your system, the lessserotonin you have circling your
system.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Well, and so it has, you know, has that thing, and it
also talks about, with regardto relationships, that it helps
develop and improve socialskills.
Play teaches cooperation withothers and can heal emotional
wounds.
They're talking aboutplayfulness in like, for
instance that one, the healingemotional wounds.
It says In a relationship like,for instance, you know, you can
(47:17):
basically be playful with yoursignificant other, like, meaning
, like and I see that you andDory do this often and like,
basically, while you're atToastmasters, you know, you guys
sort of banter back and forth alittle bit, like and it's all
in joking, I don't know whathappens when you get home, but
(47:37):
but, but it's all in good fun,like you have a good giggle, and
I think that's what they'resaying here is like You're
basically saying, hey, you knowwe're, you know we're.
You have these playful behaviorsback and forth and it's like,
even if you were arguing, likemaybe you had an argument on the
way to Toastmasters orsomething, either a disagreement
, that kind of like jokingaround about it, almost like
(47:59):
heals it a little bit.
It says like it's okay, like wehad this disagreement, but
that's not, it's fine and it'sagain.
It goes back to that, placing alevel of significance or
Importance to it.
It's like we had an argumentOkay, that's not the end of the
world.
People argue right, fine.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
It doesn't mean our relationship is doomed because
right, you exactly, and so, andit's an easy way to deal with it
, because it's like playful,it's not you're bringing light
to it and you're, you know Couldbe bringing light to your own.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
You know your own stuff or your relationship.
Make light of something, thento make dark of something.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Yeah yeah, call back to yin and yang.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yes, yes, well and so then this other, this other
article that I found has a lotof other things in there, and
one of them is, I think, a termthat you've used in the poor is
yeah, you've used in the past,which is gamify.
So it's basically, you knowyou're gamifying something so to
like, so it's in here to togamify, doing the laundry you
(48:57):
could.
You know you could timeyourself and try to beat your
old score, so You're You'remaking it into like and which,
which, honestly, is a lot ofapps and things that you can't
do, and which, which, honestly,is a lot of apps and things like
that that are like the Weightloss apps and other things like
that.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
We'll try to gamify this good thing that you're
doing, right Gamifying, rightyou're creating a streak you
don't want to break your streak.
It's right to scoreboard.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
You know, or the biggest one I know of is, or one
of the biggest ones is the Aw,dang it.
It's the.
The language app is that youlearn a different language on?
Oh, duolingo, duolingo.
Yeah, so Duolingo is completelythat.
(49:45):
And then they obviously theymonetize it at a certain point
because they're like oh, you ranout of hearts, do you want more
hearts?
It's $4, you know, or whatever.
Oh geez yeah, and so you'regamifying that.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I need someone to gamify email.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yes, yeah, gamify, zero inbox somehow, like, so you
get, like you get fake internetpoints for having a zero inbox
or whatever it's like.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Track the lowest count of your inbox the day
before it's like see if you canget it lower.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
You know, Well, even audible, you get it lower and a
dollar will be sent to a charity, and you know you're squeezing.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
You know Well, even you, you and I both listen to
audible stuff.
Right In audible, they havelittle awards and badges, so
like if you've listened to itfor a certain amount of hours
and this and you have, you know.
So you have this little aspectof like, a little boost of
endorphins, of like, oh, I gotthe social you know social
butterfly app because I sharedmy thing on Instagram or
(50:47):
something.
You know what I mean.
Like so.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
You heard it here, folks, so the last thing is
Social butterfly.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Actually I don't have that award.
That's the one that.
The reason why that sticks inmy head is because that's the
one I don't have.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
You completionist.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Seriously no.
So there's there was a graphicin this other article that talks
about.
So it says play for adults,colon Y, and so the bullet
points they have there are livein the moment, which we sort of
talked about.
You know, be present in that,stop overthinking, which is
pretty crazy I think video gameshelp a lot with.
(51:25):
Stop overthinking.
You could disagree, but I feellike sometimes in video games
you're like, yeah, I got to makethis decision right now and you
got a controller in your handand you control it and you make
the decision right and you justright, de-stress, boost your
brain.
Oh, it says, buff up your bod,which is, I think, what we were
just talking about is gamifyingweight loss and or fitness.
(51:48):
Right, make friends, and it'sfun.
This is interesting because Ididn't notice this before, but
or maybe I subliminally noticedit.
But it says Mary Poppins wasright, we could all use a
spoonful of sugar to make themedicine go down, because it's
fun, right?
Speaker 1 (52:04):
So Well, I think, even I think there's even
another part of Mary Poppinswhere it talks about maybe it's
even in the song itself where istake with any task that must be
done, make it fun.
And now it's a game orsomething.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Yeah, yeah, something like that, I think that's the
same.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
I think that's one of the lyrics in there.
Yeah, something similar to that.
I haven't seen Mary Poppins ina little while, but Same.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Yeah, like maybe we should all.
I think I even read that in anarticle and I just took it for
granted that it's in there.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
And I would actually like fact check that.
But Maybe, we should, all youshould, fact check that for me.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
All we watch.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Mary Poppins, that's your job, as the audience is to
prove me wrong.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Yeah fact, check us.
That's good, I need to knowjust how wrong I am.
Full time job to fact check us,you know.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
It's fun proving people wrong.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I'm giving you permission to prove me wrong.
Right, exactly so.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
You're right if I'm wrong, right.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Well, I think that's like I said.
I feel like I feel like we hada good you know, made some good
progress at that subject, theand I think the end result,
though, is really just, you know, as most things are is like
okay, you gotta have some kindof balance, like strike a
balance here somehow.
So, certain times in your life,you're gonna be serious, and I
(53:22):
put this in on my notes asseasons of life, so there might
be some periods of more play andsome periods of more quote,
unquote work or seriousness andless pleasure seeking, but, as
you already mentioned, you know,those periods of less play make
it more pleasurable.
When we get to the period of alittle bit of more play, where
(53:43):
you're like, oh man it's so niceto not have to do X, y or Z or
man, I'm so glad that I get toplay this video game now, you
know.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
There was a time in my 20s where I had two full-time
jobs and they were separatedsuch that I would sleep for
three hours go work for eighthours.
Try to sleep for three hours,go work for another eight hours.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
It did not last long, but it was a number of weeks
yeah, Several weeks and I justkept oversleeping at each job.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
You know, oh, and they were like what's going on?
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Well yeah this is yeah, it was not.
It was not sustainable.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
And I took it seriously and I was not playing
games.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
I was, every spare moment was sleeping.
Yeah, I was like okay, this isall I get to do, Even some
moments that weren't to spare.
We're sleeping.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yes, right, exactly.
Yeah, All right.
Well, I think that was verypleasurable for me.
I hope it was pleasurable forthe audience it's all that
matters, you know.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Notice he wasn't hoping it was pleasurable for me
.
It's okay, I get it.
We can all be winners.
No, it's because I know I askedhim.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Because I know it was pleasurable for you.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
You know, I know it.
Ooh, I did have a fewsargassums.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Sargassums.
All right on that note.
All right, bye, bye, bye, bye.
Welcome to Help Yourself.
Food and Philosophy with Brianand Nick.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Nick and I'm Brian.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
I like pleasure spiked with pain.
And music is my aeroplane.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Which eating, brian, I do love it, I do love it.
You know, I saw Red Hot ChiliVampers in concert, like
recently, yeah, yeah, so yeah,that's, they're one of my.
I mean they're a SoCal band, soyou know they're pretty SoCal
South California, right, yeah,south, yeah, south California.
That's what we call it whenwe're.
If you're, I can tell you're anative from South California,
(00:36):
because that's what everyonecalls it.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It's like for all of our non-native SoCal speakers, I
wanted them to know.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Do you live in North California or Middle California
or South California or SoCal,socal, anyway, yeah, I did see
them in concert recently andironically not to take us too
far off from the whatcha eatin',but I did see them here in
Nashville and I took my kids tothe concert because my kids are
(01:11):
old enough now that they can seesuch things and they
experienced.
Experienced a few things, Ithink for the first time, but
like wafting clouds of marijuana, smoke.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Contact tie Right and actually it was a lot.
Anyway, Unexplicable hunger,yeah, no, the funny thing was
they were like what does thatsmell?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Can't you smell that smell Dad.
Yeah yeah, but you know thesmell that's around you Like,
don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, so no, we went there.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
But I realized that when I was, when we walked in
and we got to our seats, Irealized that it was almost
exactly 30 years to the day thatwhen the first time I saw the
Red Hot Chili Pepper.
So I was like it was very, verysurreal for me because I was
sitting there with my kids andthen I did the calculation.
(02:06):
I'm like, okay, this was 2022.
I saw them in 2000, excuse me,in 1992, for the first time in
concert.
And so 30 years later I'm therewith my kids, which I thought
was anyway.
It was very reflective, it wasreflective.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
For me it's sort of yeah, like kind of looking back.
Did you wonder or think toyourself at any point at the 92
concert?
It's like man, I hope I canbring my kids here one day.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, no, well, and I will say that I was about the
same age as my son when I sawthem for the first time.
I was slightly older, maybeabout a year, year and a half
older than he was when he sawthem for the first time.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So anyway, Rites of passage have changed a lot,
haven't they?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, so anyway, what am I eating?
Couple things.
I actually wanted to talk abouta subject, that on food.
That is sort of weird.
I went on a chaperone to bandcompetition.
Our high school marching banddoes competitions and during
(03:11):
those trips you're on a bus andyou're basically eating the same
thing that the kids are eatingand we give them these snack
bags, and so the whole dayyesterday I was just eating like
just the worst, like justbasically like snack food the
whole day.
Like I've ever had a day whereyou just eat snacks the whole
day and they're not the andsnacks are never the greatest,
(03:32):
they're always snacks are justsort of snacks.
It's like, eh, like this thingin the middle and I know there's
going to be people out thereand be like you can make healthy
snacks, it's fine, you can eata carrot or something you know,
and um but carrots, all aboutcarrots.
So, anyway, this is not the typeof snacks that we provide to
(03:55):
the kids because they likebecause, they like the junk food
.
So so yesterday I had four poptarts and I had like three
granola bars and I had like acake I'm trying to remember what
else.
I had a little package of twoOreos I had uh oh, we did have
(04:16):
Subway for lunch, so I had that,but I had probably had three
bags of chips and a Subway halfof a Subway sandwich, like a six
, six inch Subway sandwich, andwhat?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
else.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That's about it, I think for eight Funyuns for the
first time in a long time.
So that's, that was fun.
Get it Funyuns, yeah, but itwas just it was.
It was one of those likethrowaway days where it's like
you're, you know when you like,you know when you go to like a
conference or something, andit's like you you're on a set
schedule and you're like you'reeverybody's got to eat at the
same time because you have thesebreaks and you have this, and
(04:51):
you got to be here at that timeand it was like that.
You're just sort of trapped andI did.
I should have probablypre-planned a little bit better
and brought my own snacks, but Idid not, and so I'm recovering
from a junk food hangover today.
So so you know what they sayabout hangovers, right, they say
(05:12):
a little, you know, have alittle bit of hair of the dog.
You know, usually you got tohave have a little bit of a
little bit of junk food in orderto cure the junk food hangover.
So I'm drinking this gettinginto Brian's beverage corner,
I'm drinking this magic cauldronexcuse me, flying cauldron
special edition butterscotchbeer that's like basically Harry
(05:33):
Potter-ish.
I had one of these a littlewhile ago.
So the same company made a rootbeer that I had a few episodes
ago and so, but it's loaded withsugar and I will say it tastes
really good but it's a lot ofsugar, so I would need a lot of
sugar to tolerate butterscotch.
Oh, you don't like that flavorat all.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh, not at all.
It's like I think it's the partof candy corn I hate, or
something about it reminds me ofcandy corn.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I could see that.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Yeah Well, butterscotch yeah, and other
things like.
It's just just I don't knowwhat it is about it.
I don't taste it long enough toknow why I ate it.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Right, right, You're like just immediately.
Yeah, that's like my.
My father hated peanut butter,just couldn't stand peanut
butter, and so so when they cameout with peanut butter M&M oh,
excuse me, not, it wasn't peanutbutter M&M's.
This is a long time ago.
He, he took a handful ofReese's Pieces and thought they
were M&M's and he put them inhis mouth and he was like just
(06:42):
no, no peanut butter for me.
So anyway, yeah, that's about it.
So, so I have that.
So I'm drinking this flyingcauldron.
I'm going to be on a sugar highwhile we're talking.
Sort of appropriate.
It's a little bit hedonistic ofme in order to to be drinking
this much sugar and go into thismuch junk food, right, and then
(07:03):
I've got my offset here, thoughjust the plain Jane water
bottle with my rectangular strawthat I am, I'm going to be
drinking out of.
So that is what I'm eatingtoday.
Or at least that's my food talkfor today.
I'll see you in the next video,or what's your food dog?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
I too well, I guess.
Following on the theme ofsnacks, I'm snacking.
Dory likes to keep me amplysupplied with food in my office
and I often forget about it, soI'm kind of trying to like cycle
my stock.
Yeah and binging on snacks as a.
For instance, I have Twounopened packages.
(07:43):
I'm finished hit the open but Istill have two unopened
packages of these Chicken snackyeah.
I think in previous episodesI've referred to them as meat
sticks.
Yes and I've shared.
I've shared these with you, youknow.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
I had one of those.
They're really good.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
But yeah, it's like 50 or 60 calories per stick.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I Don't know if there's other flavors or not,
but the flavors the two flavorsthat Dory always gets me are the
original, and that's sea, saltand pepper.
Uh-huh you can tell thedifference, especially between
it and the other flavor, whichis honey and jalapeno.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yes, I think I had the honey jalapeno one.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Yeah, that's the one that's 60 calories.
I guess that's the honey.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
Yeah, a little bit of sugar.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
That's the difference .
How he makes, yeah, but it's,you know, pseudo, pseudo healthy
, right.
There's no hormones added.
That For the chickens that wereraised soy free, gluten free.
They never use antibiotics.
Yeah of course that begs thequestion what do they use
instead?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
right.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It's kind of like sugar free, yeah, but this is
really sweet.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah so what are you doing here?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
anyway, yeah, yeah because if it's gonna be really
sweet, I would rather just havesugar, please.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
That's good though for a few generations of
Digesting sugar so and, if Iremember correctly, that's
Because I like I like to havethings like that or, like you
know, low carb kind of meat,kind of things like that.
But I Also don't you get tiredof eating beef jerky.
So if, like, if you have likedried beef that knows ones I
remember are like more of anactual meat stick, like they're.
(09:22):
They're moist, that's.
I know nobody wants to hear mesay moist.
Mmm we used to meet Flavor gosh.
Our audience is cringing rightnow.
Just stop it, just stop.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Well, you know that.
That's why.
That's why the bagel and thethe cake are separated.
The bagel is needy and the cakewasn't moist enough.
Right, I wrote that joke.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
With the help of my mom too.
Needy get it, can't canady getit.
Well, so.
Yeah well.
So I know I was gonna say Ihave some Something similar to
that, those meat sticks, but Igot.
I got them at Costco andthey're they're really good
(10:12):
they're, they're refrigerated.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
So they're well.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
So the cool thing is like they're.
They're refrigerated, sothey're fresh, they're more for,
they're not like a product thatsits on the shelf, that has a
lot of shelf life.
You have to keep themrefrigerated.
And then it says you'resupposed to eat them within a
week of opening them and they'relong, like probably I Would say
12 to 14 inch long Meat sticks.
So they're like really long,but the issue with them is that
(10:38):
they're so they they're, they'rereally good, but the issue is
that they're 220 calories perper one.
So it's, they give the servingsize and a half, which is 110
calories for half of it, and Hmm, so 220 calories, that's all.
(11:01):
Like that's a big snack, that'sMm-hmm the court, compared to
what you're talking about 60calories.
You can eat that and you'relike, yeah, this really is a
snack.
I get a little bit of protein,I get something in my system,
but I'm not like.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
120 is 10% of your daily intake, right?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
You're just doing the yeah, that's right, yeah, and
that's all that's.
That's a lot.
That's a lot to give up ifyou're.
You know, I Don't, for ifyou're anything, I mean that's a
lot of calories.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So especially when you're drinking butterscotch
beer, which is probably 800calories, 210, 210 calories.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's good.
I say yeah, brian, don't eatthe meat stick because you might
want to still drink yourbutterscotch beer.
Make good choices.
Make good choices.
Remember what's important toyou.
Little callback right, thehedonistic treadmill.
(11:56):
You know, I hear thathedonistic treadmill has a cup
holder on it.
I usually put butterscotch beerin it.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Oh, Whenever I'm binging on my deepest, darkest
desires are like a nice coldglass butterscotch beer.
Oh.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Man.
Okay, well, so let's get intoour.
So let's segue into our subject.
Oh, you didn't tell us aboutdrinks.
Do you have any beverages thatyou're sipping on?
No, I'm out.
You're out, dude.
Yeah, someone once told me themost important part of public
speaking is hydration.
What are you gonna do?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
I'm gonna sweat.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
You're gonna get.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Halfway through this episode you're gonna be like my
mouth is so dry.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Let me hear, you're gonna Macky mouth right right me
following.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
So let's slowly segue into our subject.
Last episode we talked abouthedonism and that philosophy and
how that was the seeking ofpleasure and how that plays into
what you do in life, how itaffects good things and bad
things and is it wrong or is itright and things like that.
(13:17):
But I think in this episode wewanted to shift a little bit to
that.
The opposite of hedonism, whichwould be Would you call it and
he'd, and hedonism when it was acall.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I'm still on the fence.
I'm hoping we can figure it outtogether.
Okay, I've come across Threethings.
That might be it, or maybe it'ssome weird combination.
When you're referring to itwould be and hedonia and hedonia
, that's right.
And that's where someone can'tget pleasure.
They can't get no satisfaction.
They try and they try.
(13:51):
I'm just full of the lyricstoday I guess it's, it's.
It's my favorite kind of cliche.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Like a rolling stone.
Gathers no moss.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay, I see, stop, I had.
I thought two things and I hadto stop myself.
All right, which, which is theanother possible, would be a
sulfur strain.
The opposite of hedonism issulfur strain.
Uh-huh another would bemartyrdom slash.
Yeah, I see her right and wesort of hinted at another one at
(14:29):
the end of our episode of Likemasochism or sadism or say
that's like actually seekinganother another kind of pain
seeker.
Yeah yeah.
But is.
I don't know, maybe, maybethat's a little bit of nihilism
to where it's like, yeah, butnow that I just thought about
this, though, isn't?
It isn't a massacist?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
But isn't.
Isn't a masochist?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
somebody who.
No, but like isn't a masochist,somebody who Derives pleasure
from the pain that they'reseeking?
So then, how does that makethem?
Speaker 1 (14:59):
They're basically just another kind of hedonist,
right?
They're just yeah, well, that'skind of.
The thing is like which.
Which part of the definition ofa hedonist do you want to latch
on to?
I Mean the purse, the seekseeking pleasure.
Okay, well, they could seeright the opposite of pleasure
right or they.
(15:20):
It's Feeling pleasure okay.
Well if you can't feel pleasure, let's say on Hedonia right.
I guess it would be.
I don't know if there's a wordfor it, but it'd be somebody who
can't feel pleasure and wantsand seeks to ruin everyone
else's fun.
Well, and I think, I thinkwhich is something like that
(15:41):
fundamentalist person youimplicitly reference, the one
who's like trying to ruineveryone's fun.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Well, and I and hedonists who can't feel the-.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I feel like the anhedonia thing is like you've
described.
That or at least the definitionthat you pulled up, was like
the inability to feel pleasure,you know like the inability to
have those things, so like Ifeel like that technically is
the opposite, but I feel likemore like your what you said was
a martyr, a martyr-y type ofmartyrs kind of mentality.
(16:13):
I feel like that's more closelyassociated to in my mind with
somebody who's the opposite of ahedonist is that they're trying
to sort of show people like Idon't need pleasure, or you
shouldn't need pleasure either,in order to do anything.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
So kind of the self-restraint.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, self-restraint exactly Interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Okay, one thing that comes to mind there, like
exercising self-restraint ordeliberately choosing not to go
for the pleasure, reminds me ofa practice sometimes recommended
by Stoics where it's like oh.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I like Stoics.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Hey, yeah, you're living things are good right now
.
That's good, that's cool.
Live on nothing but bread for aweek just to remind yourself of
what that's like or what howyou could survive even in quote
boring or spartan circumstances.
But then it also magnifies yourpleasure after the fact, right,
(17:25):
Like you appreciate food somuch more when you're back to
variety and back to quality andso forth, as Eddie.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Murphy would say if you eat saltines all the time,
or if you're starving thensomebody hands you a saltine,
then you're like man, this isthe best saltine I've ever
tasted, right, yeah, if youremember that, you might be too
young to remember that joke.
Did you ever see that?
That was a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Was that when he did his purple outfit routine?
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, Eddie Murphy raw.
Yeah, it was like the it waslike a it was very, very-.
It was very what's the word I'mlooking for that.
It was very monumental, or, youknow, fresh, because basically
he did a standup routine Beforewe had Netflix specials.
(18:11):
He did a standup routine andhad a movie about it.
I think I talked about this onthe podcast before, which is
probably everything, but he hada movie about it and people went
to the movie theater to watchhis one hour thing, which nobody
would do now because they'reall on Netflix, right.
But on that note though, I justlooked up I was looking up
Stoicism because I wanted to seethe virtue or not the virtues,
but the four you know there'sfour pillars of Stoicism, or
(18:34):
something like that.
I wanted to look up those, butone of the first articles that
came up was Stoicism versushedonism, and this is-.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Well, that's probably the AI, knowing what you've
searched before.
No, it's from a place.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
It's from a website, so it's not because Google now
has AI results, that pops up, Iknow, and it's remembering your
previous searches to figure.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Hey, you might be interested in the difference
between-.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
No, what I'm saying is Anyway, what does it?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
say what is the article?
Just ignore me for that onemoment and understand so when
comparing-.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
So most important distinction is based on the idea
of pleasure.
In Stoicism, pleasure isperceived as neither good nor
bad, but rather something toview indifferently, and hedonism
once focuses largely set on thepursuit of pleasure.
So it's basically it's thething that I said before, which
is we were talking about in thelast episode.
Like is it where's the line?
The right or the wrong, thegood or the bad?
(19:28):
Is this good or is this bad?
Is this right or is this wrong?
Like where's that black andwhite line Right?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
So the the pleasure is important to hedonists.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Pleasure is not important to Stoics.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, it's you view it indifferently.
So it's.
You know, pleasure is perceivedas neither good nor bad,
meaning, hey, if you're going toif you're going to go seek out
pleasure, fine, there's not likeI don't say there's nothing
wrong with that, but that's notneither good nor bad.
We're not going to place avalue on that.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, that takes me back to a bit of fan mail.
We had way back after ourepisode on what Is Love, where
you know you and I were like allthe opposite of love is hate.
Duh.
But, when they chimed in andsaid that they'd heard.
It said that the opposite oflove is apathy or indifference.
Right is is no, I?
Speaker 2 (20:18):
think we said it's not-.
Yeah, I made the assertion thatthe opposite of love was not
hate, it was fear.
Oh, wait, okay.
That person that person said-they sent an email that said
that actually, no, they hadheard that it was indifference,
that it was you know, that itwas something that it was, you
(20:39):
know.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
But they actually sort of said, yeah, your
definition sort of makes alittle bit of sense, so anyway,
Well, I like I like thedistinction, because I think
it's kind of like what we'retalking about here, where, in
its own way, neutrality is is anextreme.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah Well not to take us too far off.
But, like the-, the, you knowthe virtues.
The stoic virtues are wisdom,justice, courage and moderation,
and I think moderation is theone that really gets into the
hedonistic stuff.
Where we're talking about islike where I think we talked
about in the last episode, whichis, yeah, you know, anything
(21:21):
not in moderation is probablynot good, like if you're you
know, if you're seeking pleasureall the time and it's getting
out of control, then you know,and one of the virtues of stoic,
the stoic belief is, orstoicism, is that, moderation of
, yeah, seek pleasure, but do itin moderation, I would think.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Well, in the definition of seeking pleasure,
it at least the one that I sawwas that it's also avoiding pain
, right?
It's not just Right.
And in an end, at the risk ofrepeating myself in its own way,
I think there comes a pointwhere seeking pleasure becomes
(22:02):
pain, painful, right, becausethrough overexposure, it's just
not as fun anymore.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Right, you kind of come back to hedonic treadmill.
Yeah, um.
So so what do you do Like?
Do you run faster on thetreadmill and start doing damage
to yourself?
Speaker 3 (22:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Right.
To take the metaphor, maybe twoliterally.
Or do you get off the treadmillRight and Right?
Avoid the pain of boredom,avoid the pain of you know your
damage from having excess, andseek that equilibrium, seek that
balance and get pleasureelsewhere, like, perhaps by
(22:41):
resting, like, because taking abreak from something you've been
doing too much of yeah, Offerspleasure, right?
Yes, and is avoiding pain oftoo much of a good thing.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So I think how to say I think hedonists get a bad rap
.
Maybe I'm too much of ahedonist, but I think that
there's what people who havelatched onto the philosophy
that's like appropriate have ahard time explaining.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
And do wants of it.
You know like what they mean.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
And then there's like what everyone hears when
they're using these words in theways that they do, and it's
like, oh, you're just an addict,you're addicted to everything
you want-.
Right you only want to feelgood, Um it's like people, be
damned, yeah, and I don'tunderstand.
I never understood that,because I get pleasure out of
being a good person, right, butI'm saying who doesn't want to
(23:42):
feel good?
I don't feel good when I thinkI'm feeling good.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Like who doesn't want to feel good?
Like yeah, to me that's alwayslike all you want to do is seek
pleasure.
You're like yeah, why would younot?
I don't understand what's thealternative?
Seeking pain, right, exactly,or avoiding pleasure?
I guess you could say avoidingpleasure, but that's what we're
sort of talking about.
Is the people like?
(24:04):
Basically, some people are likeno, I don't want, I'm going to
refuse doing that because it'stoo much pleasure, it gives me
pleasure.
Yeah, it's.
You know what I mean, so-.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, and again I think that like seeking pleasure
without any self-discipline.
Right now we're talking aboutmoderation um is misguided and
is a path towards disastersmaller.
Otherwise.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, and it's I like even that stoic it takes us
back to sto yeah, it takes us tosto yeah, I was going to say
even that sto stoicism you knowthat stoic belief of the
indifference to me is a hardthing, because you feel like you
should feel something abouteverything, like you shouldn't
(24:53):
be, like you shouldn't be.
And I'm not saying an opinionabout everything, I'm saying
like to just say like, eh,whatever, like I don't know, I
mean, was it pleasurable?
I guess I mean, but it was alsonot sort of not pleasurable.
So, oh well, and here's what Ifeel like with regard to and
(25:16):
maybe this is jumping too farahead, like in what we wanted to
talk about, but, like you know,I think at some point in this
episode we want to get into likesort of balance between
pleasure seeking and everythingelse, like where probably you
should be, is moderation right?
But I don't think it's.
I don't think that it has to bethat the thing that you're doing
(25:39):
that's pleasure seeking, youhave to like limit your pleasure
while you're doing that.
I think the balance is theoverall balance of everything.
So you can go do somethingthat's pure pleasure, like you
can go you know we've alreadymentioned video games like you
can go play video games andenjoy them.
While you're playing, the videogames you present in the moment
and you enjoy those and you getpurely pleasure out of them.
(25:59):
There's no other reason, orvery few other reasons, or maybe
that's the main reason thatyou're going to play them right,
but then after that You'regoing to be going.
How dare you, how dare you makesuch assumptions?
I mean, I feel like the youknow having that time where you
(26:20):
have that exactly what you justsaid.
Hey, also like I went to bed atthree o'clock in the morning
last night.
It was very pleasurable tosleep last night.
Like I was dead tired by thetime I crawled into bed, right?
So the fact is that, should Inot seek?
Should I not say, oh, that's,that was really great, I really
(26:42):
enjoyed that sleep, like I'mgoing to do this because it's
going to feel good to sleep.
I don't think that's, I don'tthink that's true.
I you know.
To deny that, I think isstrange.
I don't understand if you'relike well, I'll sleep, but I'm
not going to gain any pleasureout of it.
You know, whatever you know.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
What is wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
So well and so on.
That I guess sort of on thatnote is, you know, talking about
sort of the balance of, youknow, between the too serious
person versus the person that'smaybe too hedonistic or too, I
don't know.
Like the way that I which waygood.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, I mean, and well, let me say, maybe this
translates a little bit betteris that I feel like you could
translate sort of pleasure intoyou know, I don't know.
I guess we talked about likeassigning an importance on
things, like some people arelike everything is important, so
(27:51):
you have to be serious about it, like you have to be, you know,
and to me seriousness is like asource of or not a source of,
but an indication that you'renot gaining pleasure, like if
you're just like yes, I'mintently going about my business
and I'm doing this and I'mright, versus the other side of
that, which is we're not goingto assign an importance on
(28:14):
anything.
So, talking about nihilism,like you mentioned nihilism
earlier, which is that belief ofyou know nothing matters.
So why do you, you know, whyeven care?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
And that's a little bit extreme.
Like nihilism is extreme, butthere's also the just, you know,
like I said, before it'sgetting close to Anne Houdonni,
I think.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
Like it's very impressive sort of mentality.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Right and not that far, but like the, the, so what?
Or the O well, kind of like youknow it's kind of like an E or
type.
Yeah, but it can also have itsbenefits though, because, you
know, ultimately I think thatthere's a lot of displeasure
(28:58):
that can come out of assigningtoo much importance or a high
level of importance to things orI don't want to say importance,
that's probably the wrong word,but like building it up in your
own brain.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yeah, in our what's it called?
We have cliches for thisconcept, right, like in our
native language, like he'smaking a mountain out of a
molehill.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, it's to make to be even more.
I guess others might say makingsomething out of nothing, but I
think that's even worse.
Right, like a molehill issomething.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
It's just.
It's not a mountain.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
You're over stating it, you're over feeling it,
you're over.
Yeah, you're making it moreimportant than it is.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Making it bigger than it is.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Well, and I think I also think the perception to you
like, as an example, neitheryou or I want to be fired by our
clients and or our employer,and you know so we are.
You assign a certain level ofimportance to the work that you
do for your business, forwhatever career you're in right
(30:06):
To ensure that, yeah, you'reoverall great success and so.
So there's a certain level ofimportance, so there's also a
certain level of seriousnessthat you bring to it.
You know is that oh, this isimportant.
This is a thing that I need tobe serious about because I could
you know I could be fired.
(30:28):
But I will say that you knowmany people who I've met that
you know sort of blur that linein their professional life where
they're like no, I bring aplayful attitude to the things
that I think, even the things Ithink are important.
You, you know you sort of have,you're bringing that pleasure
into that, you know, you knowinto that arena and you're
(30:50):
blurring the line between thosetwo things.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So that's what I'm do .
I'm one of my little personalmantras of sorts, or things I
have to remind myself of.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I am a fun loving professional.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
That's one of my you know identity statements.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yes, well, and I was thinking of the spoonful of
sugar kind of belief.
You know where We've talkedabout this before.
No, we've talked about thisbefore and actually I remember
somebody gave a speech it wasn'tyou, actually, it was somebody
in our Toastmasters Club thatgave a speech about maybe it was
you, I don't know.
It was it you pair a thing thatyou want to do, or a thing that
(31:27):
you are trying to do withsomething that is so like.
For instance, in your case, youmight say, hey, I would like to
exercise, but I also want toplay video games.
Okay, I'm going to get atreadmill, I'm going to walk on
the treadmill anytime.
I'm playing video games.
So you're going to, you know,you're going to stand up and
you're going to be on thetreadmill.
So you're like, I'm getting myexercise but I'm also getting
the other thing, and you'repairing those two things with
each other, which I think ispleasure seeking for a benefit,
(31:54):
right.
Pleasure seeking to getsomething done that you perceive
is not pleasurable maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
No, it's self-discipline and seeking
pleasure right.
It's finding a balance.
Ha ha, ha, ha, ha ha.
And I don't in terms of likewho said that.
I don't remember exactly.
I remember hearing that conceptin atomic habits, though.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, it's cool.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
So, yeah, there's or it doesn't.
It could be stacking like,pairing them, like that where
they're co Located, so to speakright walking while gaming.
Yes it could also be pairinglike chronologically.
So it's like okay, if, um, if Iwalk on the treadmill for 30
minutes, then I can.
(32:48):
That's when I can play gamesright for the evening.
Right, yeah, it's like I it'sBefore this, after this sort of
thing right.
So you take it like an existinghabit and you add something to
either the front of it or theend.
Yeah.
I mean that's basically.
Yeah, like I got to be takingmy allergy medicine right
(33:09):
reliably every day in themorning because I'd say okay
every time.
You know I had to have it abrush in my teeth.
Yeah hopefully everyone does.
Um, but it's like, okay, when Igo to brush my teeth in the
morning, I'm gonna first take myallergy medicine.
Yeah, mm-hmm you know, and thenit just Basically became a
(33:31):
habit, cuz I Tagged it with no,anyway, that was.
That was a bit of a tangent, no, no, not at all, I think.
But but finding that balance,you can co locate, you can stack
or, like you said, put thething you want to do with the
thing you know you need to dotogether right, yes, yeah yeah,
I think good tactic.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I feel like, well, and I'll say this, like there
are certain people who At firstI was thinking, like people that
you, I've worked with in thepast that I feel like they don't
take anything seriously.
So, like you're saying, you'rea fun-loving professional, right
, so take the professional offof that.
And I've worked with peoplethat they're professionals by
(34:11):
their nature but it's likethey're just doing, they're just
not taking anything seriouslyever, right and and I.
But at the same time I realizethat you know that there's a
certain, I don't know, there's acertain amount of, I guess, as
long as work is getting done andother Things are happening,
(34:33):
then I feel like there's not ahuge problem with it.
But at the same time, well, andhere's, I guess, is what I'm
trying to get at the the problemthat I've had with it in the
past is because I've assigned aDifferent level of importance to
things than that person isassigning and there that person
is.
Yeah, go ahead.
No, so that person is Sayinglike they're playing this like a
(34:57):
game, you know.
They're basically like, yeah,this is all I mean, I'm just
gonna come in every day, I'mgonna have a good time.
There's no sense in me beingnegative and or serious all the
time for this, because it's allsort of a game, right, and
that's something that I need tolearn more of, because I think I
(35:19):
tend to.
When I get into something likethat, I tend to.
I tend to lean on the negativeof, like the high level of
importance of things and thenget stressed about it, and the
people that I've known that dothat.
They don't get stressed aboutthings very much, you know.
At least they do seeminglydon't get stressed about things
very much.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, it's like what are you?
What are you joking around?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
for this is serious right, yeah and that's because
my, because I'm, I'm assigningthat you know right or at least
I'm attributing them acting thatway as them not assigning a
high level of importance to it,and I believe that those people
would not say that.
They would say no, I I thinkthis is important, absolutely
sure, but I also don't thinkthat I need to act in that way
(36:05):
all the time.
I'm gonna treat this, I'm gonnabe lighthearted about these.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah I.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Think that's kind of its own spectrum.
Right is like some people are,like any kidding at all is not
taking something seriously.
Yes then there's other peoplewho you know, I don't know.
Like I said, I'm a fun-lovingprofessional, but as a manager,
there's times where I have toTell my team to focus up.
Right, it's okay, we've.
(36:33):
You know, we spent the first 12minutes of this 30 minute
meeting kidding around.
Let's, let's get started on onwhat we're doing, right?
Yes, it was cool to joke around.
Maybe when went a little toolong, let's let's do our thing,
because we're probably not gonnahave time to finish, or let's
see if we have time to finish,because, yeah, there's
(36:53):
moderation, right, you want?
Right, you want to have yourfun and get things done at the
same time.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Hey, that's a good right.
Have your fun, get things done.
That should be another thing.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah, things are fun when they're getting done.
Ah, I've said Wow okay.
I suppose I was caughtthemselves.
That's another thing I've said.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
No, so well, and I think that I think there's a
certain level of so like.
An example is I was recently inChattanooga, tennessee, and
somebody was telling me aboutthis place that is, I Think.
They said it's like a sandwichshop and basically they make
(37:39):
these really really goodsandwiches, okay, but they also
said you need to go therebecause it has.
First of all, they said, if yougo inside, it's like you walk
in and it's like sort of likelike the Hobbit, it's like all
that whole inside is superawesome, like plants growing
everywhere and just like freespirit painting and you know,
like stuff like that.
(37:59):
I think Dory would like and soso it's this place, but she also
said that, that they have afarm.
So then the next thing that shesaid is, yeah, it's sort of run
by a cult.
And I was like, wait, what,excuse me?
And she said you have a commune.
These guys, they started athing and they have a farm and
(38:22):
they grow things on the farm andthey opened up that sandwich
shop and all the money from thatmade it that sandwich shop goes
into the pot and all the peoplelive on the farmland, they all.
It's all in a commune.
It's like a community.
I mean commune and.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Unism, right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
So they, they, and, and so that was the first one
that they opened in Chattanooga,tennessee, and now they're all
over the world, they're all.
There's one and there's anotherone in Tennessee, a different
city in Tennessee, and thenthere's, they're all over, like
internationally.
I guess what she said, but it'sthe same thing, they're all run
by the same.
It's called the yellow,something I don't know.
(39:03):
I should have probably lookedit up, so they.
Yeah, I'm looking it up.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
What are you gonna do , like hippie, not not to be
derogatory?
I'm interested because theyellow.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's called the yellow deli.
It's called the yellow deli inChattanooga and.
When you pull that up, there'sa lot of other things that come
up that are Christian counseling, yellow deli and tattens.
So it has all these things thatthe 12 tribes, 12 tribes org.
So, like Christians, are tryingto counsel them out of it's
(39:44):
basically it is a yeah, and itis a Like she said it was a cult
, but she's like it's that.
She said they're not like doinganything bad per se, they're
just you know you know, peopleget together and live on the
same property.
That Exactly, yeah, exactly,it's just the only difference is
(40:05):
they put all the money into onepot and everyone uses the money
.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So yeah, it's with the homeowners association.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Right, exactly, so.
So anyway, apparently there arethese around different places,
but the thing that I was tryingto get at with that is that's
the you know, the free spiritkind of mentality of like, yeah,
it's cool, like everything, youknow, everything can,
(40:32):
everything's fine, everything'sgonna.
And I don't know how I'm linkingthis with, like, pleasure
seeking, but I just feel likethat's a, I'm not taking
anything seriously, it's justhey, it's all taken care of.
We're just gonna throw all themoney into the same pot and
we're gonna live off of this andI'm not just I'm not saying
that's a wrong thing, like I'mnot saying I disagree with it,
but what I'm saying is, on theother side of that is the super
(40:54):
serious and very important, likeyou know, is that everything I
talk about is serious and youknow, I feel like that kind of
thing is a free Spear.
I call it the free spirit, likeyou said, hippie-dippy, you
know for for a relativelyderogatory term, but you know I
don't have a negativeconnotation for hippie and I
(41:15):
forget that others do, so I yeah, I mean, and I don't think I
don't think there's any hippiesthat listen Like it because it
rhymes yeah, I don't anythingderogatory.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Yeah, in fact you could say that I'm in love with
hippie she.
I think she self describes as ahippie.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I would say she's got hip, she's hippie ish and she's
got hippie tendencies.
She's hip, yeah, hippish, ohwell, and so, like getting back
to that, as like the balancebetween the two, we always
thought you always tend to talkabout the extremes, right, you
always tend to talk about theperson that's we talked about in
the last episode, like, oh,that person that's addicted,
(41:53):
this, or the person that theseare like, the people in the
middle are just, it's just likehey.
Yeah, I pleasure see sometimes,and sometimes I'm serious and
sometimes I'm pleasure-seek andsometimes I'm serious and in my
line of work I'm I'm alwaysadjusting to.
I Guess this is a gooddistinction and it goes back to
my personality type, which isI'm adjusting my Seriousness and
(42:16):
level of importance tosomething based on what the
clients seriousness and level ofimportance is.
So I've had clients who areMatch yeah they always want to
joke around.
They're joking around the entiretime and they're there, they're
not.
You know they're.
We're getting the job done, butthey're not.
You know.
This is a very serious,important thing, and I've had
(42:37):
other people that are like verystern and very just yes, we need
to figure this out and there'sno joking about this and and and
.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
A lot goes like.
Like, you and I are bothpeacekeepers.
You know, according to anyGraham.
Yeah we're different in thatwhen I match people, I match to
their opposite right, becauseI'm I'm trying to Keep everyone
balanced, everyone represented.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, so I got something super serious.
You try to crack a joke alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, I mean I'm not going to like try to, you know,
convert them, but I'll want totake it down a notch, you know.
Or Alternatively, if, like Isaid in that say, in the case
with my team, we're 12 minutesinto a 30 minute meeting, I'm
gonna be like okay, joke, youknow, I'm genuinely glad we had
some fun.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
I don't need to run a tight ship, but now it is time
for us to you know.
Go through her agenda, you knowthere's things we need to
accomplish.
Speaker 3 (43:34):
We've got some things we gotta get done, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's time to be a littleserious.
Let's, let's take it a coupleof notches towards serious.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
So, I think we do that on our podcast is we talk
for a little while about seriousand then I make some stupid
comment, you know, and then yeah, and I drive the conversation
back to seriousness, or or, or,or.
I I'll take us on, a change itand you'll bring me back yeah
right, exactly, yeah Well, andso I Guess where I'm with the
(44:05):
thing I was gonna.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well, I think maybe some other tactics on pursuing
balance.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
Understanding that all this is a spectrum.
Right, like you might, justbriefly on spectrums, you might
call something red, but reallyred is its own range within
itself.
Right, there's plenty of shadesof red.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And the difference between red and orange can get
kind of blurry when you're youknow like it gets hard to tell.
Yeah, I think All of this stuffis on a kind of spectrum and
it's up to you, the listener, todecide whether you're in a
hedonistic place, whether you'rein an anahedonic kind of place,
(44:47):
whether you're in a Superserious place or whatever like.
Decide which direction you wantto lean and Counterbalance
towards equilibrium.
Yeah, like just just deciding,like, where you're at and how
far you want to move back.
That's like the first step.
You know, yeah, it's making achoice of just where you are and
(45:09):
then a second choice of whereyou want to be.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Yeah um.
Like me.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I'm pretty content.
In my well, Pretty content Isay that and then I start
thinking about some of theconsequences of my video game
hedonia right now and I likeyeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I'm preaching to myself when I say I need to
decide for when, when a decisionneeds to be made, but then it's
like Decision of what are somethings you can do to
counterbalance.
Yeah, that's what we're kind ofgoing through together.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
Well, this the the next place I was gonna go is
we'll hopefully go into yourvideo games a little bit,
because I pulled up a couplearticles about, you know, adult
play, so like, and that didn'tsound right.
Play for adults.
So why basically butter?
Why should you, you know?
Why should you be?
You know, why should you playgames?
(46:00):
Why should you Do things likelike they talk specifically.
They talk about board games,they talk about video games.
They talk about other thingslike why should you do these
things as an adult?
And so a couple differentarticles have some interesting
points.
This one talks about multiplebenefits of play.
(46:22):
So it says it helps.
The play helps by relievingstress and improving brain
function, stimulates the mindand it boosts creativity,
improves relationships andconnection with others, which is
opposite of what you said aminute ago, like your video game
thing, where it's like it makesyou not want to Can connect
with others.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, if the more dopamine you have in your system
circling your system, the lessserotonin you have circling your
system.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Well, and so it has, you know, has that thing, and it
also talks about, with regardto relationships, that it helps
develop and improve socialskills.
Play teaches cooperation withothers and can heal emotional
wounds.
They're talking aboutplayfulness in like, for
instance that one, the healingemotional wounds.
It says In a relationship like,for instance, you know, you can
(47:17):
basically be playful with yoursignificant other, like, meaning
, like and I see that you andDory do this often and like,
basically, while you're atToastmasters, you know, you guys
sort of banter back and forth alittle bit, like and it's all
in joking, I don't know whathappens when you get home, but
(47:37):
but, but it's all in good fun,like you have a good giggle, and
I think that's what they'resaying here is like You're
basically saying, hey, you knowwe're, you know we're.
You have these playful behaviorsback and forth and it's like,
even if you were arguing, likemaybe you had an argument on the
way to Toastmasters orsomething, either a disagreement
, that kind of like jokingaround about it, almost like
(47:59):
heals it a little bit.
It says like it's okay, like wehad this disagreement, but
that's not, it's fine and it'sagain.
It goes back to that, placing alevel of significance or
Importance to it.
It's like we had an argumentOkay, that's not the end of the
world.
People argue right, fine.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
It doesn't mean our relationship is doomed because
right, you exactly, and so, andit's an easy way to deal with it
, because it's like playful,it's not you're bringing light
to it and you're, you know Couldbe bringing light to your own.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
You know your own stuff or your relationship.
Make light of something, thento make dark of something.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Yeah yeah, call back to yin and yang.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yes, yes, well and so then this other, this other
article that I found has a lotof other things in there, and
one of them is, I think, a termthat you've used in the poor is
yeah, you've used in the past,which is gamify.
So it's basically, you knowyou're gamifying something so to
like, so it's in here to togamify, doing the laundry you
(48:57):
could.
You know you could timeyourself and try to beat your
old score, so You're You'remaking it into like and which,
which, honestly, is a lot ofapps and things that you can't
do, and which, which, honestly,is a lot of apps and things like
that that are like the Weightloss apps and other things like
that.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
We'll try to gamify this good thing that you're
doing, right Gamifying, rightyou're creating a streak you
don't want to break your streak.
It's right to scoreboard.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
You know, or the biggest one I know of is, or one
of the biggest ones is the Aw,dang it.
It's the.
The language app is that youlearn a different language on?
Oh, duolingo, duolingo.
Yeah, so Duolingo is completelythat.
(49:45):
And then they obviously theymonetize it at a certain point
because they're like oh, you ranout of hearts, do you want more
hearts?
It's $4, you know, or whatever.
Oh geez yeah, and so you'regamifying that.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I need someone to gamify email.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Yes, yeah, gamify, zero inbox somehow, like, so you
get, like you get fake internetpoints for having a zero inbox
or whatever it's like.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Track the lowest count of your inbox the day
before it's like see if you canget it lower.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
You know, Well, even audible, you get it lower and a
dollar will be sent to a charity, and you know you're squeezing.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
You know Well, even you, you and I both listen to
audible stuff.
Right In audible, they havelittle awards and badges, so
like if you've listened to itfor a certain amount of hours
and this and you have, you know.
So you have this little aspectof like, a little boost of
endorphins, of like, oh, I gotthe social you know social
butterfly app because I sharedmy thing on Instagram or
(50:47):
something.
You know what I mean.
Like so.
Speaker 1 (50:52):
You heard it here, folks, so the last thing is
Social butterfly.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Actually I don't have that award.
That's the one that.
The reason why that sticks inmy head is because that's the
one I don't have.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
You completionist.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Seriously no.
So there's there was a graphicin this other article that talks
about.
So it says play for adults,colon Y, and so the bullet
points they have there are livein the moment, which we sort of
talked about.
You know, be present in that,stop overthinking, which is
pretty crazy I think video gameshelp a lot with.
(51:25):
Stop overthinking.
You could disagree, but I feellike sometimes in video games
you're like, yeah, I got to makethis decision right now and you
got a controller in your handand you control it and you make
the decision right and you justright, de-stress, boost your
brain.
Oh, it says, buff up your bod,which is, I think, what we were
just talking about is gamifyingweight loss and or fitness.
(51:48):
Right, make friends, and it'sfun.
This is interesting because Ididn't notice this before, but
or maybe I subliminally noticedit.
But it says Mary Poppins wasright, we could all use a
spoonful of sugar to make themedicine go down, because it's
fun, right?
Speaker 1 (52:04):
So Well, I think, even I think there's even
another part of Mary Poppinswhere it talks about maybe it's
even in the song itself where istake with any task that must be
done, make it fun.
And now it's a game orsomething.
Speaker 3 (52:19):
Yeah, yeah, something like that, I think that's the
same.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
I think that's one of the lyrics in there.
Yeah, something similar to that.
I haven't seen Mary Poppins ina little while, but Same.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Yeah, like maybe we should all.
I think I even read that in anarticle and I just took it for
granted that it's in there.
Speaker 3 (52:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
And I would actually like fact check that.
But Maybe, we should, all youshould, fact check that for me.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
All we watch.
Speaker 1 (52:41):
Mary Poppins, that's your job, as the audience is to
prove me wrong.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
Yeah fact, check us.
That's good, I need to knowjust how wrong I am.
Full time job to fact check us,you know.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
It's fun proving people wrong.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I'm giving you permission to prove me wrong.
Right, exactly so.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
You're right if I'm wrong, right.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
Well, I think that's like I said.
I feel like I feel like we hada good you know, made some good
progress at that subject, theand I think the end result,
though, is really just, you know, as most things are is like
okay, you gotta have some kindof balance, like strike a
balance here somehow.
So, certain times in your life,you're gonna be serious, and I
(53:22):
put this in on my notes asseasons of life, so there might
be some periods of more play andsome periods of more quote,
unquote work or seriousness andless pleasure seeking, but, as
you already mentioned, you know,those periods of less play make
it more pleasurable.
When we get to the period of alittle bit of more play, where
(53:43):
you're like, oh man it's so niceto not have to do X, y or Z or
man, I'm so glad that I get toplay this video game now, you
know.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
There was a time in my 20s where I had two full-time
jobs and they were separatedsuch that I would sleep for
three hours go work for eighthours.
Try to sleep for three hours,go work for another eight hours.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
It did not last long, but it was a number of weeks
yeah, Several weeks and I justkept oversleeping at each job.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
You know, oh, and they were like what's going on?
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Well yeah this is yeah, it was not.
It was not sustainable.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:24):
And I took it seriously and I was not playing
games.
Speaker 3 (54:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (54:28):
I was, every spare moment was sleeping.
Yeah, I was like okay, this isall I get to do, Even some
moments that weren't to spare.
We're sleeping.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yes, right, exactly.
Yeah, All right.
Well, I think that was verypleasurable for me.
I hope it was pleasurable forthe audience it's all that
matters, you know.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Notice he wasn't hoping it was pleasurable for me
.
It's okay, I get it.
We can all be winners.
No, it's because I know I askedhim.
Speaker 2 (54:58):
Because I know it was pleasurable for you.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
You know, I know it.
Ooh, I did have a fewsargassums.
Speaker 2 (55:07):
Sargassums.
All right on that note.
All right, bye, bye, bye, bye.
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